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U_G_ Krishnamurti - You Have No Experiences

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hello and welcome I'm Jeffrey Mishlove

today we're going to be examining the

concept of enlightenment why is it that

people throughout the world and almost

every religious tradition and cultural

tradition pursue the notion of

enlightenment what is enlightenment is

there such a thing is it possible to

attain enlightenment with me today is

mr. ug Krishnamurti a world traveler and

author of mind as a myth and the

mystique of enlightenment welcome you

Jing here you know people often have

referred to you as an enlightened being

and I know you're very uncomfortable

with with that and in fact you told me

earlier you're uncomfortable with the

concept of being at all yes you see the

the question arises only in relationship

it's becoming and enlightenment is also

becoming easy so I would go one step

further and say that the human mind if I

may use that word quote and unquote is

interested only in sensual activity you

know the the living organism or the

human body whatever you want to call it

is only responding to the stimuli it is

not interested in pleasure at all see

the moment you use thought to experience

anything in terms of pleasure it becomes

a pain for this body and yet we pursue

sensuality and yet find only pain in it

but we love pain in other words we love

we enjoy pain and call it pleasure you

see the human body is not interested in

pleasure of any kind it is only

interested in maintaining the

sensitivity of the nervous system and

the sensitivity of the functioning of

the body so the moment you say a

particular sensation is a pleasurable

sensation the demand to make it lost

longer goes with it so then the demand

to make the pleasure

lost longer turns what we call pressure

into pain and that's a painful sensation

to the body the body is trying to be rid

of the pleasurable sensation and what we

are stuck with is pain it almost sounds

as if the greater the pleasure then the

greater the pain must be we have

introduced the degree into that what is

called pleasure and see because the

thought is always interest rate in more

and more of something and less than less

than the other I am NOT saying anything

against a pleasure see the moment you

use thought as an instrument to have

pleasure we have there created a problem

since man has realized since I don't

like to use the word man or a human

being or in general terms to the average

man say that man is you and I sitting

here so since this demand for permanent

happiness is something which cannot be

achieved through anything any thinking

that is open to us we have projected and

created what is called enlightenment

God's self-realization calling by

whatever name you like so that is the

ultimate pleasure there are stories out

of India you've probably heard of great

Saints who are supposedly in states of

Perpetual sexual orgasm

that is what these gurus are selling in

the marketplace today

you see even sex is something that the

body does not care for it's a painful

thing and that is necessary for only one

purpose to reproduce one line then the

living organism is interested only to

things it's a survival and then is the

reproduction so when once the thought is

involved in turning sex into pressure we

have created a problem it is the same

thought that makes you feel that you see

the pleasure you see can be extended

into one of degree in two and longer and

longer time and then you see keep it

going and so it is more painful to this

body

you almost sound Victorian in your

approach here I'm not I'm not Victoria

Lee sex is it totally unrelated to the

question of enlightenment you see

whether it has become fashionable these

days for all these people to market sex

as the means or the stepping stones to

enlightenment but actually and factually

the sex is totally unrelated to what is

called enlightenment whether you deny

yourself sex or indulgence sex it is of

no importance to what you are searching

for but in a culture where you see the

denial of sex is maintained as a cynic

poem or an essential thing for your

spiritual goal unfortunately the the

girls in the marketplace who are selling

that enlightenment invented this thing

called is the tantric experience and

used that as a means to achieve your

spiritual goals right is you the tantric

here or abstinence there and what you're

saying what are the same they are

totally unrelated to the question of

enlightenment when once you see the

question of enlightenment or the demand

for an Enlightenment is freed from sex

totally either as a means to eat or the

denial of it as a main street we can

look at it in a different way and ask

the question is there any such thing as

enlightenment at all we have accepted

taken for granted that there is such a

thing as enlightenment but we never

questioned that because when once you

question the whole idea of enlightenment

or is reportedly concept of

enlightenment we are questioning the

teachers we have talked about it and we

have invested our tremendous fatal them

so the the sentiment comes into the

picture and we accept that as a gospel

truth well yes we have this notion of

the great sages of antiquity in many

different cultures have written and

talked about higher states of

consciousness and at least lighten them

and that is true but I am questioning

the very consciousness itself is there

any such thing as consciousness that is

my question so you become conscious of

yourself and the world around you only

through the help of the knowledge that

is given to us by these so-called sages

saints and saviors of mankind so is it

possible for you to be conscious of

anything without the help of that

knowledge so we have the question the

very thing that we have taken for

granted we are very naive and accept it

and then you see spend a whole lifetime

in search of whatever you want to have

it enlightenment God realization

self-realization what in other words you

seems as if there's a paradox here

because on the one hand our

consciousness it seems as if it leads us

to question the tradition the so-called

truths that are handed down to us and

you're saying but without that tradition

without those truths we would have no

consciousness you know that is part of

the structure of our thinking mmm-hmm

you see unfortunately the thought has

divided itself into two and created you

see this duality or the neurotic

situation for us the whole culture

teaches us that you should not compete

competition is to be eschewing

ambition is just something which you

should not you see have spiritual

teachings tend to say this is spiritual

teachings he is always I mean exactly

you know that except in capitalism there

is this sense of demand that you should

be free from ambition you should be free

from greed you should be free from this

that and the other but at the same time

ambition is absolutely necessary for

survival in the society in which we are

functioning today so it is that that has

created the neurotic situation for us we

want to pleasure and at the same time we

know that the pressure is giving us pain

so the demand for permanence is the

basic demand of thought is it is

interested in in permanence

the permanence not of this living

organism but the permanence of the

continuity of thought so the body knows

in a way that it is permanent you see

not in the sense in which we know that

this is permanent that is not permanent

but that knowledge is of a peculiar kind

that it knows it is permanent so it is

not interested in the idea that this is

coming to an end one day see so the the

one that is involved in this pressure

moment is the one that is asking the

question what will happen to this living

organism when it dies you see for the

body there is no such thing as death at

all now because it has no way of

experiencing the fact that it is alive

in this moment and that it is dead after

60 70 80 or hundred years at all are you

saying then that the body doesn't die

but what about the spirit that is the

belief this we the self the soul the

spirit and whatever you want to call it

is invented by thought and it is the

thought that is responsible for

experiencing this what we call thought

because what you call self spirit or

soul or whatever you want to call I

don't want to indulge in the frivolity

of the root meaning of the words

sincerely you know the Latin word spirit

is a Latin word they have to do with

breathing it generally it means

breathing so you have observed UCF but

an individual stop for breathing and

that condition you describe it as depth

so the fact that you see the breathing

stop that you want to know if there is

anything that will continue after death

you see it is that that is interested in

demanding to know what will survive this

condition of the body which is called

death

I mean I would tend to think that my

body will not survive my body will decay

but perhaps my ability to experience at

some level will survive but can you

experience your body while you are

living now see one wants to know

anything about death he has to find out

what is it that is there now and not

wait until what we call the death takes

place so you do you have any way of

experiencing the fact that you are alive

today I say no I see the doctor comes

and examines you and tells you that this

is your blood pressure this is the

temperature for your body your heart is

breathing your blood races so on and so

forth so you are alive so you are trying

to use that knowledge and experience

what you call a living being but without

the help of that knowledge which is

passed on to us by observation of all

these doctors and experience and tell

yourself that you are a living being so

when once you are freed from me the

knowledge you have no way of

experiencing that you are alive today

and there is no question of experiencing

when you are today well Descartes a

great Western philosopher said I think

therefore I am and you seem to be

suggesting that thinking is the opposite

of of living I think that Descartes I

studied the Western philosophy and he

asked the wrong question and answered it

tonight

in a very funny way we think I think

therefore I am but he never asked the

question which you should have asked the

way the Indian philosophers built if you

don't think

now are you there uh-huh

so the the basic question which we have

to ask is what is thinking and why do we

think at all if you don't think there is

still the question there you see the

question is born out of the assumption

that there is something there and that

is why he has come out with this

statement I think therefore I am if you

don't think where is that I am well

isn't it true that when we talk of

enlightenment the great sages of India

have said when you stop thinking you can

enter into this vast ocean of bliss and

that's enlightenment the Blessed seizes

the Bliss or whatever you want to call

it is essential pleasure that we are

indulgent in they have experience with

some extraordinary moment which he

described it as a bliss and tried to

share it with us and that created the

problem of us all trying to experience

the same thing so that is the way the

knowledge is passed on from generation

to generation that is the way you are

also experiencing things without

knowledge you have no way of

experiencing anything at all and when

once you experience that experience this

strengthens and fortifies the knowledge

so this vicious circle goes on and on

and on and on and that structure has no

way of breaking through that we see

vicious circle so we accept that

knowledge is necessary for us to

experience and the experience

strengthens the knowledge so do we

really want you see to find out

or demand the way out of it you see

mm-hmm how is there a way out and there

is no way out because the question is

posed by the thought and by asking this

question they thought knows that it has

no answer so that is the only way it can

maintain its continuity

they say the thought has invented time

the thought has invented what is called

space without the help of the knowledge

we have of space and the knowledge we

have of time there is no time there is

no space the scientists may talk and say

anything they like but they are also

saying that there is no such thing as a

time there is no such thing as a space

there is no such thing as matter but

what is called space-time continuum is

there a space I question that is there a

time the moment we thought is born the

time is there so it is that that has

invented what is called is really

timeless and pursuing that timeless and

it knows that it has no way of putting

itself in a timeless state because the

thought has to be absent in a so called

timeless state it is an invention of the

time to perpetuate itself within the

field of time well it sounds like we're

trapped we are trapped for in the very

demand to get out of the trap is reality

problem

so there is no answer to that at all

well are you suggesting then that in the

history of humankind there they've never

been enlightened persons no I'm not for

a moment is saying that there is no such

thing as an enlightened being we have

plenty of them

but I questioned the very the demand to

be enlightened he as I said at the very

beginning to me there is no such thing

as enlightenment at all you see the

enlightenment is in the future as I said

a while ago it is the time that has

invented the thing in the future the

future is always it puts the

Enlightenment there so the Enlightenment

is part of the knowledge that is passed

on to us from these great teachers who

claim to be enlightened people and it is

the past that is in operation here

projecting into your future a thing

called enlightenment so first of all is

there any such thing as the present I

say there is no such thing as present

there is no such thing as now there is

no such thing as the moment here because

if we say this is the moment this is the

present this is the now you have already

brought into this picture the past in

the past time is not enlightened so I am

going to be enlightened tomorrow but

what about now so am i enlightened or I

am am i not enlightened what is it that

tells me that I am enlightened that I am

NOT enlightened that I am free and not

free it is the knowledge that tells me

that I am not free that I am NOT

enlightened so if you are not

enlightened now you are going to be

enlightened it tomorrow I don't know if

I make well if there's a paradox here

somehow because it I guess it strikes me

that if one is really enlightened is

there's a transcending of space and time

so that if one is enlightened it's

always there that assuming for a moment

that there is an enlightened being yes

he has no way of telling himself that he

is an enlightened man and there is no

question of his trying to enlighten

others I mean as soon as I say I am

enlightened I've already come back the

knowledge about enlightenment passed on

to us from generations tells you that

you are an enlightened man you see so

then naturally you want to enlighten

others so it is a petty little

experience which has become possible for

me through the help of this thought so

what I experienced in call and

enlightenment is a thought induced

experience and not really an

Enlightenment at all you mean every

description of enlightenment is

essentially an illusion it's why are we

concerned about enlightenment at all

well it seems like a way out yeah what

else is there to do there the way out PC

so you you you are putting off the

problem to your future date what I am

suggesting is that there are no problems

at all you see what we are stuck with

easy solutions offered to us by the

people who you think and I think are in

the know of things that they have the

right solutions for the problems but

those solutions have not helped us to

resolve our problems but somehow we are

caught up in this field of time and time

is a hope you see it tells us that by

repeating the same thing over and over

again you will be able to solve this

problem so we these solutions have not

helped us to solve the problems at all

we are looking here and there and

everywhere to find out somebody who can

offer us another solution to solve our

problems but what one who is interested

to resolve the problem

must be ready to brush aside you see all

the solutions offered by the Saints the

sages and saviours of mankind in the

past and in the present and yet to be

involved in other words to truly be in

free to truly be enlightened one has to

give up every concept of enlightenment

or every notion of this tradition that

we've inherited you you are talking as

if the concept and you are two different

things

the the demand for enlightenment and you

are two different things so there is no

way you can separate yourself from the

concepts and but you just said that's

essential to do that is essential to do

is is a manner of speaking this is a way

of putting things it's essential when

you're impossible at the same time you

are not ready to come to terms that

there is no problem here and that you

are stuck with all the solutions offered

to us by those in room we have absolute

confidence faith interest and yet they

don't work the instrument which we are

using is the one that is born out of

hope this is what you are today is the

totality of all your thoughts feelings

and experiences that instrument is the

only instrument we have and it is a very

powerful instrument that instrument has

helped us to achieve whatever we have

achieved so far today so we are not

ready to discard that instrument and at

the same time we know that understanding

through the help of that instrument has

not helped us to resolve our problems at

all and yet we have not given up our

confidence tremendous faith in the

instrument which we have been using to

achieve our results

so that is really the crux of the

problem so when once the understanding

dawns on you that that is not the

instrument which will help you to

understand and solve your problems and

that there is no other instrument the

demand to solve the problems ceases and

instantly so there is no such thing as

understanding at all how I stumbled into

this is something which I have no way of

knowing which is somehow it dawned on me

that the intellect which I have

developed through sharpening it you see

using it has no way of understanding

anything and at the same time the

tremendous faith in that instrument is

salinity see that that is the only

instrument I do not know of any other

instrument that's the only instrument

that I have and it has not to help me to

resolve anything to understand anything

and somehow it dawned on me that that is

not the instrument and there is no other

instrument so that means it knocks off

the whole basis of for any other way of

trying to understand anything so the

whole idea of for intuition goes down

the drain down the tube why why does

intuition go the intuition is nothing

but a refined sensitized thought if I

may put it that way so but it is still

you see caught up you see in this the

use of thought to the resolve you see

the problems well wouldn't it be better

at least to have refined sensitive

thoughts rather than crude insensitive

instead what is the difference

what is the difference between a crude

thought and a sensitive thought well in

in Western tradition in the 18th century

we we had a notion of the Enlightenment

which which meant you know being free of

superstition at least being able to see

things as they are

where are we free from superstition why

do we swallow everything that every

scientist dishes out every day I say we

say it is a scientific but it is not so

scientific they are as dogmatic as the

religious people of the bygone days but

because what science has given us the

technology we invest of tremendous faith

you see in the scientists every four

years you see their theories are

changing as I said the other day their

interest in trying to find out the

fundamental particle he is searching

weighing but they will go on and on and

on and on and on they're not going to

give up for anyway yeah I mean the

intellectual effort to solve the mystery

of the physical universe is in vain he

is in way because of the fact that the

scientist is separating himself from the

universe it is a single unit you see the

nature and men are not two different

things

as I said before a while ago last time

that somewhere along you see the

evolutionary process this

self-consciousness occurred in the human

species you see but how do you know

we're not actually separate how do you

know that the self-consciousness is not

valid you know it is the thought that

creates the space as I said it's not

easy space so let me give you an example

we have about a minute left if this is

in touch with this yes what is it that

tells you that this is hard the

knowledge that is hard is the thought

and the thought creates the space

between the two and tells that this is

hard otherwise there is no space between

the two and there is no way that the

sense of touch can tell you

that this is hard and not so I mean even

something as basic as the sense of touch

something we take so for granted is

really just another thought process

thought process so taught easy space

thought creates space and in that space

wave function so this space is something

which can never never be experienced by

thought we were trapped in our own

thoughts and our thoughts can never

really even see themselves it has no way

of looking at itself you see what you

see there the very question is there a

thought or the interest the demand to

look at thought is created by thought so

what you see there is above thought and

not thought itself ug Krishnamurti thank

you very much for being with me it's

been a pleasure thank you and thank you

very much for being with us

[Music]

hello and welcome I'm Jeffrey Mishlove

with UG Krishnamurti and we're

continuing our discussion on the nature

and the mystique of enlightenment ug the

the various traditions particularly from

Asia emphasized meditation as a path to

enlightenment and sometimes it's quite

specific if you meditate for so many

years you will be enlightened and and

you know there's lineages of enlightened

master after enlightened master who

followed a formula a recipe he almost

and seemed to have been then anointed by

their masters as being enlightened

beings Oh

all that has gone out of my system so

what I have stumbled into is something

extraordinary for me this is not

something that is born out of my

thinking I am NOT putting across a

logically a certain premise here and I'm

not thinking at all there's no thinking

involved in what I am saying it it might

come as a shock to you if not as a

surprise that there is nobody who is

talking here and this is a puppet here

and you are pulling me City you are the

one that is responsible whatever is

coming out of me and so if you ask me

questions about Hinduism the techniques

of meditation and what they do I have

nothing to say on that subject at all I

in my own way did everything you say

that one is asked that I was asked by my

teachers followed everything you see

that is there in the book practiced

every kind of meditation and got nowhere

I discovered that you see it was

something in the nature of a violence

see the goal of meditation is peace

there is already peace here

this is a tremendously peaceful living

organism and why in the name of God why

in the name of enlightenment I am asked

to meditate to reach a goal which I

consider to be a silly goal non existing

goal through meditation you see so why

am i meditating what is this meditation

for that was my question basic question

so I discovered that you see the goal of

silence placed before me as a goal to be

reached through one technique or 100

techniques of meditations

it doesn't matter is the very one that

is disturbing and destroying the silence

that is already there

whereas I discovered that you see the

silence that was there is something in

the nature of a volcano erupting you see

so you go and stand before an ocean the

roar of ocean you're going to in general

what you hear see the tremendous sound

there they you know so that is the

silence and through meditation I am

creating a dead inert state of mind is

it is the mind that is involved in what

is called meditation you see so it is

interested in creating a peaceful mind

we don't realize I'm not talking the

saying anything about what the Hindus

mean by meditation I'm not interested in

that you see I'm not here expounding the

cause of Hinduism at all you see what I

have stumbled into what I have

discovered is something extraordinary

for me so I don't even accept that there

is such a thing as a meditative state at

all we see it is all techniques of

meditations if I may use a very very

crude

is a sort of self-abuse you see it gives

us you see the feeling that we are

putting ourselves into a state of

silence into a state of darkness what

you see so if you if you practice one

technique you have if you see one you

have seen them all there is no reason

why we should take try on a hundred

different techniques of meditation but

the basic question which one which we

have to ask ourselves is why do we

meditate at all what for it's a very

ancient practice it is I cannot defend

or brush aside the ancient practice I am

NOT interested in that at all you see

the when there is any an idea that is

given to us that there is such a thing

as peace of mind is in the silent mind

that there is a void DC that you should

not be occupied with these certain

thoughts then you should be preoccupied

with another set of thoughts but you are

always preoccupied with something or the

other at low time so you can say that

you are not occupied with something or

the other but all your energy is wasted

in choosing between two thoughts you see

if this thought I want a peaceful

thought and the other one is a violent

thought and there is an actual battle

going on between these two thoughts and

one thought that you say is a peaceful

thought and the other thought is a while

and thought so what you are stuck with

is a battle a war between two things and

what you experience and call that desire

into mind or the experience of a silent

mind is the peace between two wars and

then it starts all over again and you

constantly battle with you see the idea

that you see this meditation or that

technique of meditation is going to put

you into a peaceful state of mind so

there is no such thing as

stay peaceful stateful my soup the idea

of peacefulness maybe the illusion you

described it is the mind the tests that

is responsible for the disturbance that

is there and it has invented uses

something called a silent mind and

battles with their teasing that's all

that is there when you attain this

insight that you're describing to me and

yet you say you practice meditation for

many many years and this practice of

meditation had nothing to do with your

own insights what I I would go one step

further and say that what I have

stumbled into it is something that has

happened despite everything I did and

how I have stumbled into it is something

which I have no way of finding out for

myself so it is not the mid techniques

of meditation it is not the denial of

sex it is not a practice of control of

breath you see this is a this is a

simple trick that we play with you see

what you call breath control yes when

you carefully look at you see you have

no way of looking at it you have no way

of seeing you and have no way of

observing see that is really the problem

see we we are caught up in this idea

that there is somehow there is some way

that you can observe that you can look

at you see and see see but there is no

way you can separate yourself from the

breath you see so you want to separate

yourself from breath and be aware of who

you are breathing and watch it and what

for so you are not conscious or aware of

the fact that you are breathing at this

moment and why do you want to be

conscious or aware of breathing and what

for to achieve a certain goal what you

are actually doing is cutting out the

flow of oxygen to the brain and that

gives you all kinds of very peculiar

experiences and you dump them as

spiritual experiences so when once you

experience something the mechanism of

experiencing structure is that you

always demands more and more of the same

less and less than the other but we seem

very hungry for spiritual experiences is

if we have to collect them like trying

the newest drug or the latest guru or

the latest tantric method it is no

different from the way we collect

millions is no very different from you

see the way we acquire knowledge so you

see in a area where tremendous

importance is given to spiritual

experiences and not sensual experiences

you can you see sell this to somebody

else you see I have all these spiritual

experiences you don't have so I am

superior to you that is all that is

there in this talk about the spiritual

experiences I know you don't know see so

I am questioning the very the foundation

of knowledge you see knowledge there is

no such thing as knowledge for the sake

of knowledge knowledge is power I know

you do not know I am a free man you are

not a free man so I have no way of

knowing that I'm a free man

you see if I tell myself that I'm a free

man it is the knowledge that is passed

on to me that tells me that you are a

free man you see you know I have no way

of knowing that I am a free man so when

once you are freed from the knowledge of

all this freedom business and light

element business the peace of mind

business you are no longer interested in

finding out whether you are peaceful or

not peaceful whether there is a silencer

there is no silence at all let me shift

a little bit with you there those who

describe the path towards enlightenment

is bhakti-yoga the path of the heart

opening up loving

sometimes they seem like they get a

little bit gushy but it seems to me the

emotion it's emotion you see the other

day I was telling my friend what part do

tears play the tears are there only to

lubricate the eyes they have no other

part to play so emotionally see you

involve yourself in the eyes become dry

and then the nature as this is a

facility to lubricate it in its own way

so that you call those tears tears of

joy but the tears are provided by this

organism to protect itself to protect

its size so it is lubricating the eyes

so they are not tears of joy at all so

when once you see you think the decision

a man of great devotion is emotionally

involved is in this the joy you see of

whatever he wants to call it the eyes

are drying up and then you see the

nature is this own way of lubricating

and protecting itself and that you say

it is to yourself joy but let's move

beneath the sentimentality of it to talk

about for example human communication

being able for example to recognize

oneself in another human being do we

really do that

is it possible for us to establish any

relationship the relationship that we

establish with the other humans human

beings is on the basis of what do I get

out of that relationship

you see so mutual gratification is the

foundation or the basis of all

relationships you see so you are not

satisfied with it the reality of the

situation it is so horrible for you to

think that the basis on which you have

established relationship with you the

other human beings as you put it is it

so sordid that you have to superimpose

on that and call it is his love you see

so love implies to and see loving thy

neighbor as thyself crazy this is so

ridiculous so absurd in the name of love

thy neighbor as thyself we have created

so much of horror so much of destruction

so much of killing is in the name of

life thy neighbor as thyself

so are you totally cynical when about

love a cynic is at least you see is sure

that his feet are very firmly fixed on

the ground and it is the way out is

easily the cop-out for the other man to

call me a cynic because he doesn't want

to accept the fact that really there is

no love between these two individuals

what do I get out of this relationship

if that is denied you will be surprised

what is there in the place of what you

call love is hate if not hate it is

apathy indifference towards the other

individual we use what I am trying to

say is that it is just impossible to

establish the relationship on any basis

there is no need for any relationship at

all the only relationships we have is in

the basis what do I get out of this

relationship

who wants relationship the person who is

lonely who is lost he wants to fill his

emptiness he wants to fill his void and

he uses to some other individual to help

him to fill this void and he uses this

fine

world Cola but aren't we all ultimately

in that predicament we all are in that

predicament where you are not honest

enough to admit that we use some other

individual to fill this emptiness to

fill this void and to fill this

loneliness so we are using other

individuals and for this the fancy label

it is a loving relationship and you may

call me a cynic this area it's all right

with me that is the reality of the

situation so anything that is born out

of this relationship is violence well I

I wouldn't necessarily want to deny that

what you described is the sordid

foundation of relationships but surely

they don't just stop at the foundation I

would think surely there are the heights

to which it relationships can aspire and

even if it's an unattainable height it

may be worth a spiral so we live in that

hope and die in that hole why is it not

possible for us to love the other

individual here and now at this moment

why does it have to be tomorrow see

tomorrow means you are pushing what you

can do today that's why I say you people

call me a cynic food people call me a

pessimist people call me a legalist

people call me this that and the other

and what they do not real I'm not

blaming them I'm just pointing out that

when they use these terms as a cop-out

they use this too when they use this i

point out that it is what you believe is

the solution for even problems he is the

one that is responsible for evil

frustration what I am suggesting is a

very positive thing he'll and you call

this a negative thing because you want

this action to occur only there and not

now I don't know if I make myself clear

if you're only interested in all actions

to happen only in the future and not now

so you are not acting at all you see the

action has got to be now

and why is it not possible for us to be

kind to be honest to be loving to be

whatever you want to be now and why does

it have to be tomorrow or you see day

after tomorrow

why is my question see you are pushing

it off something that you can do now and

you don't want to act now we see that

action is something which will destroy

there's a solid relationship to you have

a stay I'm not saying that you means you

but I'm here with you right now

yes that we establish you see this is

not the relationship and cover it up by

saying that's a loving relationship this

brotherly relationship this that and the

other the action implies freeing

yourself from this distorted reality and

create you see if there is any other

relationship of possible outside of the

field of whatever you call our brother

old understanding in soon that is too

much for us so it is very convenient for

us not to act not to action means this

relationship comes to an end what will

be in its place is something you will

not know I would not know nobody knows

earlier I mean you told me that but

there was nobody there

nobody had they're just words all works

works first books how do you ready to

accept that I have a hard time I think

I'm talking to a human being

I don't know if there is anybody who is

talking

what is it the time say you see I have

to bring this the functioning of the

body your body my body everybody's body

into the present context see these

sensors are all independent there is no

coordination except when there is a need

for cooperation and the cooperation

between one two three or all the five

senses he is decided by the situation in

which you find yourself and the

situation demands the coordination of

one two three or all the senses and so

they are all independent models what I

am trying to emphasize now and always in

put across is that this body is only

interested you see in response to the

stimuli the statement then this is

responding to this stimulus is also a

questionable thing because you have no

way of experiencing except through the

help of the knowledge that is given to

us that this particular response is the

response to a particular sensation

otherwise the response to the stimulus

and the stimulus and the response to

that stimulus is a unitary moment and

you have no way of separating so as a

matter of fact the eyes are looking at

one thing the listening mechanism is

listening to something and the sense of

touch is is involved in the sense of

touch so all these are all independent

activities there is no way that you can

create the totality of your body here

and sit here and experience the totality

of the body what you experience there

and tell you what self and tell me as

the totality of your body is born out of

your imagination

you see so if you want to experience

civil body here the only way you can

experience it is through the help of

this sensory activity the eyes are

looking at it the this sense of looking

does not tell me that you see it is you

see a body and that it is missing dr.

fish laughs that is sitting there it

does not say anything you say about your

body except that it is reflecting the

body on the retina yes the light that

falls on you activates this optic nerves

and the optic nerves throw the image on

the retina and it does not say that it

is a man that it is a human being that

it is doctor Mushaf it doesn't say

anything except the reflection of the

object on the retina and in this process

the activity of the optic nerves also

activate the neurons there in your brain

which we call memory and tells you that

you see that you are a man and not a

woman that you are a human being and not

an animal and so on and so forth but

these perceptions are so quick that

there is no need for the memory to come

into operation and capture you can say

that you are a man I don't know if they

make me sleep well I don't know if

you're describing an organic process or

a mechanical process I am only talking

describing the organic process which is

not different from the mechanical

process we are not ready to accept the

fact that that is only a robot there a

mechanical thing a computer with an

extraordinary intelligence of its own

and the acquired intellect which we are

so proud of is no match to that so as I

said but even the idea of a computer or

a robot is also just a thought just an

idea for us it is but I have to use the

word computer to give you a feel about

you see the idea that we have that there

is something more

you see there there is a spirit there is

a soul there is a psyche that there is a

mind and so on and so here what you're

doing in effect is denying that there's

that there is a spiritual nature I is an

invention of thought within the realm of

thought in the realm of thought the

thought has created the materialistic

values and spiritual values that thought

is the creation of what society culture

or whatever you well you may would it be

fair I'll say then our spiritual nature

does exist within the realm of thought

what I am suggesting is that this

spiritual goal and the demand to achieve

your spiritual goals are also

materialistic in their nature yes

because the instrument which you are

using is thought which is matter you see

so you just say that it is a spiritual

goal and that spiritual values are

higher than the materialistic goals and

the materialistic values but the

instrument which you are using to

achieve your spiritual goals are also

materialistic in their nature

well it's I would think it's debatable

whether thought is matter

I don't really know yeah it is debatable

when you consider thought or think of

thought as as a thought you see as

matter or not matter but he is there a

thought

the question itself is absurd and

ridiculous because of the assumption or

we assume that there is such a thing as

thought so if you want to find out for

yourself and by yourself is there a

thought the question itself is absurd

because of the assumption that there is

such a thought and what you find is all

about thought but not thought see I

don't know if I make myself well that's

a very subtle easy you have to do that

with me all right you see do you think

that there is a thought there what is

there is only the question do you think

but is it there a thought that all

that's there but there is no other

thought other than this question is

there a thought or do you think that

there is a thought thought is this

thought is that thought is not this

thought is matter thought is not matter

thought is a space that is not space

thought is time not a time that's all we

can indulge in this probability of

arguing and debating for hours and hours

and hours but we don't get anywhere

because what we are indulging meaning is

nothing but our dialectical thinking

about thinking itself well this helps us

to sharpen that instrument yes and carry

on this discussion on and on and on well

is it like masturbation I used a very

refined word a dialectical thinking

about thinking it's mm-hm

if you want to use that word I am ready

to go along with it you seem to be

suggesting that it doesn't we get

nowhere it's like a dog chasing its tail

on tail its own tail

TSR I would put it in a different way

you are trying to overtake your own

shadow but you really don't know or

don't realize don't want to know and ask

this question what is it that is casting

the shadow it's the light there without

that there is no shadow there so instead

of questioning the shadow itself the

materiality of the shadow for some

reason you want to overtake the shadow

you are not going to succeed well let's

let's talk more about the light maybe

later when I use the word light I don't

mean any divine light or spiritual light

the light that is there without that

life I see nothing here if I see

anything it is only the product of my

imagination so to be able to see you I

need the light see so the thought is not

is here self-generated one it is

generated by the stimulus of the light

so that light stimulates as I said an

while ago and brings the thought into

operation and tells me that you see that

is a camera and that you are a man

that's the call and so on and so forth

this is a microphone so what is so

marvelous about you see this naming and

recognition that's all that we are

indulging in the frivolity of naming and

recognizing things so if you do not know

a thing about what is going on outside

and what is going on inside you as you

know yourself or you as you experience

yourself is coming to an end

that is the situation which you are not

ready to face up to so you keep on this

dialogue with yourself the communication

with yourself and tell yourself all the

time that I am this that I am NOT that

that I am happy that I am NOT unhappy

that I am bored that I am not bored and

so on and so forth but actually there is

no difference between the outside and

the inside so why do you have to

constantly carry on this dialogue this

conversation with yourself would be to

maintain the continuity of your thought

as rather than to face annihilation we

you are projecting a situation called

annihilation there may not be any

inhalation at all because when once the

thought is not there then once you are

not there you the product of all the

experiences and thoughts when you are

not there you are no way of finding out

what you are left with and you wouldn't

call it an annihilation at all you are

not there anymore so you have no

separate independent existence of your

own so you are part of the totality of

things your you and the nature is one

single unit now ug you seem to be

suggesting that there's just a little

hair maybe separating all of us from

enlightenment and that hair is our fear

of annihilation the fear you are talking

about

have you ever experienced fear at any

time because you see of what is fear

after all where is that fear what is

fear the fear of something coming to an

end the fear of you as you know you will

sell you as you experience yourself

coming to anything so you do not want

the fear to contain it if the fear comes

to an end you will drop dead here

physical clinical death will shake bases

here it is not in your interest to ask

demand the fear to containment

so you play with that you see fear so

you don't condemn it don't identify

yourself with fear

don't do this you see you become one

with the fear you become choicelessly

aware you live with the fear you see all

these techniques all the therapeutic

cults that have come into the

marketplace each one trying to sell his

own particular theory is only

perpetuating this the fear and not

trying to help you to free yourself from

fear because it is something which you

do not want to free yourself from and it

is not in your interest that the fear

should come to an end so you do not want

the fear to continue do you experience

fear now the fear there is nothing there

to come to an end at all probably if you

see a Cobra there I am NOT an innocent

child you see you step back

so then you see the fear that you see

the it will kill you

or it will come some kill somebody else

is absent there then you take a walk

with a cobra and sing songs with the

Cobra and you will be surprised what a

delightful creation what a marvelous

piece of creation that Cobra is and you

will never hurt that because hurting

that is hurting yourself killing that

Cobra is killing yourself and what gives

you this situation where you are so

ruthless and wipe out all these living

organisms is the idea that you are

superior and that the whole thing is

created for your use and that is why we

have created this problem you I'm

talking all the time right well you were

quoted once in a magazine article and in

India is saying that you thought perhaps

a cabbage was more alive than a human

being

you see do you know that you are alive I

guess you have a knowledge of that you

have no way of experiencing the living

quality of that not that I know or that

I experience that I am a superior being

the demand to experience something

living is impossible for the dead

structure the thought is dead it is not

a living thing what gives you the

illusion is that you see we are trying

to enlist thought with life and we

imagine that it is a living thing but

actually it is a dead thing we see it is

not is dead so a dead thing cannot

capture something living if by accident

you step on a live wire you're dead

you're finished you see only by accident

you can step on you see touch life at a

point where nobody touched before and

and so you see the then from that moment

onwards what is living there expresses

itself without the use of thought so in

that sense I say you will be more useful

to nature dead than alive because you

are living in the world of ideas you are

living in the world of thoughts you are

putting

idea scintilla stomach and you are

wearing their names so you are not

living at all it's as if you're saying

that our ideas are like our clothing

like our hair or fingernails they're not

living tissue now they are not living at

all they are all dead ideas passed down

to by somebody who has come out with

these fantasies and ideas you know I

watch many of your commercials here I'm

not plugging in any particular thing but

it is something extraordinary see

something extraordinary because I they

cannot sell anything to me you know but

I am NOT interested in the products they

are selling and the way they are selling

this is something extraordinary I'm

always fascinated by these commercials

not by the programs they put me to sleep

so I have become wake when I see a

commercial I never buy anything that

they are selling see if they have you

see viewers like me I see clients like

me they would be out of business but you

see here there is one who is admiring

the way they are selling music yes the

products that always fascinates me

because of water

what is that fascinate me the sales

pitch the same stalk you see now they

have all taken over the the religious

teachers you see they were selling all

these products to us now Madison Avenue

has taken over I'm not closing in for

Madison Avenue at all you see there'd be

a better job than all these holy men who

are selling us a shoddy piece of

spiritual goods what do you think there

are any holy man any Saints any teachers

anywhere worth listening to

I wouldn't go to anybody because I do

not want anything from anyone

so there is any other holy man it is not

my concern it is not my interest what

about the notion of I'm not interested

in freeing anybody from anybody you know

what they are interested in is some sort

of a drug to put them to sleep I am

Telling then all the time look here you

are awake this awakened assist something

which you do not want so you want to put

yourself to sleep and so all these

techniques of meditation the techniques

of yoga the techniques of breathing God

knows how many techniques the people in

this country have come up with they are

all putting you to sleep because why you

don't want to stay awake you are already

awake so the whole idea of bringing

about this awakening you is is so so

funny and so foolish and so idiotic

that we all fall for this and by all

those things and try to awaken ourselves

actually we are pulling ourselves to

sleep because this awakening is

something that we don't want ug in my

lifetime I grew up in a small town in

the middle of the Midwest of the United

States and I had a feeling then and in

my youth that there was a slumber there

that people were locked into their

attitudes and into their values and into

their lifestyle and that I needed to to

leave where did you get all those things

from they brainwashed us they've made us

to believe that you see we have been fed

that kind of a bunk for centuries if

they would died for to be changed we

would all die of starvation so you are

only replacing those things you see if

it's something from outside that is what

I am NOT opposed to that what it's me is

why do you have to import all these

things from outside if religion is all

that you are interested in

what is it that you don't find in your

Bible what is it that you don't find in

your Talmud why do you have to import

all those people from outside who are

selling you some shoddy piece of

spiritual goals what is wrong with your

hymns I'm not for a moment saying go

back to Christ or back to her church or

any such and there is no question of

going back you see so anybody who says

revived go back is one who cannot offer

us anything you see you know it's y'all

the world people in our families they

always talk about their past because

they have no future to think about or

talking about they always talk about the

past any nation any individual any

teacher who wants to revive the dead

past he's already dead because he has

nothing new to offer why do we have to

go back why do you make it impossible

for you for somebody something new to

come up there and somebody asked me a

question

all these youth and people are lost they

don't know what to do with us you have

made a mess of your life already and you

are going to pass on what he has not

helped you to the younger generation if

they make a mess of the world let them

make a mess of the world they are going

to learn it is their world you tell

everybody we are all here we are

interested the world is the future for

the future generations

they don't let these future generations

living here now to have a say in this

matter it is for them to decide their

future and we have nothing to do with it

what has not helped us is not going to

help anybody all the lies all the

beliefs they have not helped put us why

want to pass them on to them if they

make a mess of the whole world is you

let them make a mess of the world we

have made a mess of the whole world we

are we have no reason to be proud of

what we have created but let me just

have you shift a little bit you know you

are an enigma

you've been described as a guru you deny

it you've been described as a

philosopher you deny that people want to

attribute the qualities of enlightenment

to you you deny that but one

characteristic which you have accepted

is that you're a world traveler I'm

tonight that I haven't night I don't

know it is not because I'm Restless or

anything ever since I was fourteen I

have never lived in any place for six

months at a stretch I have seen

practically every part of the globe

except some Pacific and Caribbean

islands and China but there was a time

when I wanted to tell myself you see I

have been there just don't talk about it

you were visits to the Greece the glory

of the Greece and the grandeur of the

Rome the splendor of this country I have

also been there I spent only three hours

in the pyramids there that was enough

for me I can kill myself until

everything I have been there I have

never been interested in any anything

past anything dead then that was my

problem I was hungry wanting to find out

for myself and by myself see this the

question of enlightenment offices should

be if I may use that word nothing else

interested me I was lucky enough to be

born in a very wealthy family was born

with a silver spoon in my mouth and so

many silver phones came along my way so

that made it easy for me to pursue

and and I tried so hard I I looked

everywhere

nobody satisfied me see nobody satisfied

my hunger to find out the answer is

there any such thing as enlightenment

was binoy an enlightened man is that man

who claims to be an enlightened man is

he's an enlightened what is it that he

has I don't have whatever he is telling

me is false and it is falsifying me be

selfless what the hell do you want me to

be selfless I am a selfish being to the

very core of me and you want me to be

selfless you see it is that we see the

idea of selflessness that has turned me

into your selfless man you are telling

me that I should be free from anger why

should I be free from anger anger is a

tremendous outburst of energy you are

not dealing with the anger there you are

not dealing with pleasure you are not

dealing anything that you see that is

happening there inside of me I am

interested in finding out whatever is

there inside of me cannot be false

whatever you are telling me is false but

somehow I didn't have this certainty to

brush the whole thing aside maybe that

fellow knows what he is talking about

maybe he has something which I don't

have nothing satisfied my hunger you see

so then they say they give you a small

piece of bread you see and then they the

brown bread you see the stone brown

bread nothing satisfied so what happened

is the hunger burnt itself off you see

the the freedom that I wanted is in the

very demand to be free he's not there

anymore it's not that I have found the

answer for that see there is no self to

realize I have spent 14 nine years of my

life searching for this self it is not

there one day so they can all go he sees

now this certainty that I have all that

is false it is it does not mean that I

feel superior and place myself and a

higher pedestal and tell myself you are

the most superior of all that I not for

a moment

that is false and I do not want that to

falsify me this certainty I have

stumbled into it's something which

cannot be transmitted with somebody you

say you stumbled into it and you say it

has nothing to do with this intense

watching nothing you see the intensity

is an emotional thing the the insights I

had through these encounters with others

strengthened different what to fight the

very thing that I was trying to free

myself from it did not help me anyway so

nothing I did helping me so I have to

use the word stumbled into because I

don't know how I this dawned on me that

there is nothing to understand you see

that is not the instrument and there is

no other instrument there is nothing to

understand well would you have done just

as well to have remained in that design

that is a hypothetical question you see

I must admit that my contact in the West

to open do you see great horizons for me

mm-hmm and unfortunately I studied both

eastern and western philosophies

thoroughly for my master's degree and

psychology but nothing helped with me

because this question the basic question

is there any such thing as mind why you

are talking of silent mind why you are

talking of for the mutation of mind

there is no such thing as mutation of

mind there is nothing there to be

transformed there is nothing there to be

changed so why this talk of

transformation radical or otherwise all

that is absolutely embarrassed

absolute rubbish poppycock I say to

myself but yet you see I lacked releases

certainty so how I stumbled into it how

it happened why it happened when it

happened has anything happened to me I

really don't know so whatever I am

trying to put across is all an

expression of what I stumbled into if I

can't sit here and give a talk you see

on the same subject like anybody else

so I go one step further and say that

you see despite everything

whatever happened to him happened has

happened to me

and it is possible for a rapist a

murderer or a con man thief man to

stumble into this kind of a thing more

than you see all those spiritual

aspirants together it seems very ironic

ironic but nevertheless the fact does

remind so so in a sense anybody who

might be viewing this program right now

with the idea that they're going to get

anything out of it whatsoever to help

them along in the path of enlightenment

so if they are interested in solving

there's personal problems there are

umpteen number of techniques they have

to go there

so this is something which cannot use to

solve the day-to-day problem ceases I

have no illusions that this will be or

it can be of any help to anybody to

solve their day-to-day problems because

they are not really interested in

solving the problems they are not

interested in in freeing themself from

fear you know so all these techniques be

one with fear live with fear except fear

be choicelessly aware of fear this is

all you see taking you away from the

fact of facing up to the situation that

there is no where you can free yourself

from here I'm not for a moment

suggesting that you should live with

fear what is there what you call you is

born out of fear it thrives in fear it

lives in fear so it cannot voluntarily

liquidate itself free itself of fear so

it has no solutions for the day-to-day

problems of the people it has no

solution for the problems of the world

it has no social mountain but you know

it just seems as if the pattern of your

life as I look at it does fit perhaps a

classical pattern and it's the pattern

of struggling of agonizing of really

pushing yourself on the path and

reaching a point of despair of

frustration and then giving up then

letting go now you see the despair is

the solution

you see we are not dealing with the

despair at all so we are not dealing

with anger we are not dealing with greed

there is no point in giving discourses

on greed or how to be free from greed or

how to be free from pleasure how to be

free from despair because despair is

something which you cannot separate

yourself from you are dealing with how

to be free from despair but not despair

itself you see so the answer to your

despair is in despair itself and not in

how to be free from despair so you are

only thinking about despair and not

doing anything with that applies to all

the things that we are trying to be free

free in other words rather than vainly

seeking for enlightenment or seeking for

love or are seeking for all of these

beautiful concepts that we have you're

suggesting that we just grab reality by

the teeth so to speak and all of its

sordidness and it is not a question of

act grabbing it is not a question of

capturing it containing it and giving

expression to it but that reality that

is already there has to express itself

in its own way how it will express

itself

you wouldn't know I would there is

nothing to be done about it

whatever you we are doing is the one

that is preventing something living that

is there to express itself so no two

human individuals no two human beings

are the same the culture is interested

in fitting everybody into a common mode

see if you look at the leaves you see I

was a student of botany I studied the

leaves you see in a microscope no two

leaves are the same no two human beings

are the same now they are doing

tremendous amount of research now they

are beginning to realize their

motivation is to track down criminals

not to understand the functioning of the

human body they know now in a way you

see that no two human bodies understand

your hair you see if it is

dissolved into the constituent elements

you will be surprised that your hair is

quite different from my hair and now

they have come out with you see the the

peculiar statement that women have more

gold in the hair than men more gold more

gold and then I don't know but I can't

make any definitive statements about it

no two human bodies are the same no two

human individuals are we see the demand

of the culture the society or whatever

you want to call it to fit all of them

in a common mold and produces even the

same kind of people is not going to

succeed in the longer probably we may

not live long to achieve our goals who

knows I don't know so this is must be

one of the dangers than a spiritual

traditions it is not that that will help

us they say what will help us to live

together peacefully

music terror not love thy neighbor

services they sell because if you try to

destroy your enemy you will go with him

if you hurt you or any physical e it can

hurt you not psychologically not

emotionally not romantically not

politically if you step on the toes of

somebody you see he is going to step on

your toes that we have in your way

understood in the international field in

relationship in the superpowers you see

you can no longer talk in terms of

massive retaliation you have to live

with your adversaries you have to live

with your enemies you have to leave it

you see and the one who is trying you

see to her to you but then probably we

will understand that you see if you try

to destroy your neighbor you are going

to destroy yourself maybe that will help

us to live together in peace but not

know their neighbour as thyself

getting a tuck well you sound sort of

like the 18th century British

philosophers like John Locke and Thomas

Hobbes who talked about the social

contract and humanity is being a loaf

and a dragon inside and that we had to

face this sort of evil quality you are

talking as if humanity is out there you

see the demand for permanence of society

Humanity is the demand for permanence

here what I am saying is that there is

no such thing as permanence the demand

for permanence is the cause of man's

misery

the demand for permanence in

relationship the demand for permanence

of happiness the demand for permanent

pleasure is the cause of man's misery so

since you know in a way that you as you

know yourself and you as you experience

our surface coming to an end as an idea

you know that one day you are going to

die but not as a fact we see not as a

reality but as this an idea that you are

also going to die like you see all those

who died before so you project the

demand for permanence on mankind that

mankind must be permanent must be there

and you should do everything possible to

see that humanity survives that is born

out of the demand for permanence so we

are not going to succeed in the long run

because there is no such thing as

permanence in any relationships so in

any demands that we are interested in

maintaining the permanence yuuji we have

only about five minutes nothing but a

semi time I don't want to do that yet I

want I want to get into something a

little more personal so now that you

told me once about yourself that you had

experienced physical death

you see yesterday there was one lady who

visited me

and asked me a question I want to live

in this moment passionately that was a

question yes I said you have to be dead

now you can't live unless you go through

this process not dying to your poetic

romantic yesterday's or psychological

death but the totality of man's thoughts

experiences and feelings that are passed

down first from generation to generation

then what is left there begins to

express itself from that moment onward

you have no existence of your own

separate independent existence of your

own at all so you're part of the

totality of things from then on this is

a single unit the nature and you are not

separate but when I make such statements

it is not that I myself can experience

you can't experience the the the

totality or the single Ness of nature

and you but the demand to experience is

not there anymore

so in other words there is no such thing

as in-depth at all what is there in the

fear of something coming to an end what

is it that will come to an end

the fear of something coming to an end

what is there that will come to an end

there is nothing there there is no

entity there now what do you think will

come to an end the demand to maintain

the demand for permanence of something

that is not there coming to an end

can be described as death you see the

condition of the body huh we use the

word and call it a dead body because it

is not responding to the stimuli the way

we think the living body is responding

to the stimuli but you you Verster who

do not know that you are responding to

the stimuli you say that I am talking

that I am full of animation that I am

coming out with all these concepts I

have no way of knowing whether I am

saying anything here what is all this

noise coming out it's just a noise you

seem to make some sense out of it and it

is good otherwise we can't function

sanely and intelligently in this we have

to accept the reality of things as it is

as they are imposed on us otherwise we

will all end up in a loony bin singing

Looney Tunes and Merrie Melodies we have

to accept the reality of the world as

functional in their value but the moment

you try to understand the reality of

anything let all the ultimate reality

you are lost forever well you seem to be

suggesting a pragmatic approach to life

and letting go of these philosophical

abstractions except as is games for the

sharpening of the intellect that saw

that

is the part that philosophy placed in

our life to sharpen that instrument you

see so you are not interested in

accepting the fact that there is no

foundation for your logical thinking

there is no foundation for your

rationality whoever said that man is a

rational being deluded himself and

deluded us all our actions do not show

any rationality any logic ality in our

function I don't know if there is any

such word as logically we don't see

logic in our lives we don't see that our

life's our own run on logic well Yugi

we're just about out of time and I'm in

the paradoxical position of saying how

much I've enjoyed being with you and in

a sense I say that and I know that you

probably you may be thinking to yourself

there's nothing to enjoy no I'll just

tell you thank you very much indeed okay

and thank you thank you with me thank

you I don't know we're talking really

what if you put it on paper or if you

try to listen to that it won't make any

sense

this my idea is not ideally if there is

a purpose or if there is any motivation

in these dialogues it is only to leave

the other individual with this enigma

the paradox and he has to resolve the

problem for himself and by it

thank you for sharing the paradox with

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YouTube Transcript:U_G_ Krishnamurti - You Have No Experiences

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U_G_ Krishnamurti - You Have No Experiences