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How Theology School Turned Me Into an Atheist

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Why does theology school create atheists

like me? Hi, I'm Britt Hartley here at

Nonsense Spirituality. I'm an atheist

spiritual director and I thought I'd

share my story of how I lost my faith in

theology school, but I also want to talk

about the broader experience of why

seminary or theological school um is

essentially like an atheist making

machine. So, first of all, just just my

story real briefly. I if you've been

following me for any amount of time, I

was raised Mormon. I lost faith in like

the literal belief that Mormonism is

like the one true religion. By the time

I was a teenager, I was doing what you

would call like nuanced Mormonism. Like

uh kind of the sense that maybe

Mormonism isn't the one true religion,

but this is just like one one pathway to

God, I think, is kind of how I was doing

it. Uh because I'm a teenager and I'm

trying to reconcile with my family

because I got kicked out of my home. Uh

but eventually, you know, in in early

adulthood, I lost faith in Mormonism

entirely. And as any Christian will tell

you, like that's great. Like you lost

faith in that religion because that

religion is crazy and you had the wrong

Jesus. You had the wrong God. So I'm

like, fantastic. I'll go to theology

school and learn about real Christianity

because apparently I just had the wrong

religion. So I took this very seriously.

I I've always um since I was a child

like asked deep questions and I always

figured like if there is a God and there

is a right and there is a wrong and

there is a specific holy book that's

that's you know more guided by God than

others. This is the most important thing

to know. And I thought about it all the

time like I I always was a person who

was asking those questions. So this

wasn't just like a fun hobby horse for

me. um this was like my this was the

driving question of my entire life which

is like what is and if there's a god um

then that's a really important thing to

know. So I go to uh Northwind

Theological Seminary and I'm studying

theology and as you study theology

you're you're learning more and more

complexities about the Bible. You're

learning how to nuance things. You're

learning um mysticism. You're learning

like Richard Roar. you're learning how

to work with these um concepts in order

to make sense of things, but it gets

increasingly complex as you as you go

through school. And so what ended up

happening to me is I had this seed of

doubt, I guess you would say, where as

you're studying the Bible, you start

seeing how God changes based on how that

society changes. So an easy example is

like the concept of hell. In the Old

Testament, we don't really have a

concept of hell. We don't have moral

distinctions in the afterlife. Um

because justice and and blessings and

condemnations happen in this life. Like

God's going to take care of it in in

this life and then they get conquered

and it's like the bad guys win. So the

theology changes and now we have

blessings in the next life because you

didn't get the blessings you were

promised by being a part of the covenant

people. You didn't get it in this life.

And so then we start to see moral

distinctions in the afterlife. That's

just one tiny thing. And then you start

to read thousands of these things where

something there's some kind of change

with the society and then all of a

sudden the God changes. And what

happened to me is I I got so good at

that not just in Christianity but as I'm

studying other religions too that I got

to the point where you could give me a

society tell me how their agriculture

works. Tell me um you know how the

social hierarchy works. Tell me about

how often the flooding is. Tell me about

the weather. And if you tell me all

those things, this is more of like the

cognitive science of religion or, you

know, anthropology.

And if you give me all those things,

I'll be able to tell you what kind of

god they created. And I started getting

so good at that game that I was always

right. And I could now predict, okay, if

this happens, this change in this

society happens or uh you could just

give me a people and tell me how it

works and I'll tell you kind of what god

they have. Um and that beca be became

something that I got very good at. And

then further than that, you also get to

see how individuals

um what kinds of individuals create what

kinds of gods. And so certain

personality types will create different

kinds of gods. If you are really high in

moral uh disgust, if like disgust is

something that you feel very strongly in

your body, you're going to have a god

that has the same kind of moral disgust

that you do. Uh if you're autistic, you

tend to be either fundamentalist or you

tend to be atheist, but not so much in

between. Um if you have high uh levels

of empathy, you're going to read Jesus

as someone different than someone who

reads Jesus who has high core values of

loyalty. um or even authority. And so

you get so good at that that I started I

had this thought that that this was like

the thread that started to pull the

whole thing apart of what if we're the

ones that create gods rather than God

creating us because I got so good at

that game of knowing how individuals and

societies create gods and why they do

like the the psychology and sociology

behind that. So, uh, again, like the

first move that you would make with

that, which everyone makes when they

have this thought, is okay, maybe we're

all accessing God in our different ways.

Um, and this is like one of the stops on

deconstruction that I feel like

everybody goes to. What if this is all

like facets of the same diamond or like,

you know, as a parent, my kids bring out

different sides of me? Maybe I'm more

playful with one kid because that's what

they need from me. uh but I'm more, you

know, snuggly with another one because

that's what they need from me, right?

And so eventually you go into this like

interfaith place where yes, it seems

like we're there's a lot of human stuff

going on with this God game that we're

playing, but that doesn't mean that

there's not a God. It just means that,

you know, we're accessing God um through

our, you know, human biases and through

our filters and we see through a glass

darkly, right? Right. And so that

sustained my faith for for a while. And

I see a lot of people end up there uh

too where they maybe lose faith in like

the God of the Bible, but they still

would believe in something like a higher

power that we're all accessing through

these different religions. And then that

started to also break down for me too

because once I um had essentially the

courage to say, okay, what would it look

like if religion and God was a human

project? and I put those lenses on,

things started to make more and more

sense. So, when I started to look at,

for example, like near-death experiences

from a more secular viewpoint at what's

going on at the level of the brain, it

started to make more sense. When you

start to look at religion as what

societies do be, you know, because we

co-evolve with religion, it gives us a

lot of things that we need

psychologically and socially, and it

helps us with our existential fears. it

started to make more sense when you

start looking at claims of the

supernatural when you start looking at

um holy books if you put on the lens of

okay let's just look at this you know

maybe I'm not convinced I'm just going

to try this on because my my thing my

thing was always like if there is a

truth it can withstand the questions of

my you know small tiny human brain and

so I just started to put on the lens of

like what what if humans were doing this

what would it look you know what would

this look like and across the board it

just started to make more sense so an

example of this is like most people

today even Christians when someone has

schizophrenia they don't say this person

has demons and has been taken over by

demons and needs and exorcism that still

happens it's much more rare most people

today will say you know what that person

has schizophrenia this is this is a

mental health disorder that needs to be

dealt with at the at the level of the

brain with the the whatever current

science that we have on schizophrenia

and that's a you know when you look at

the two and compare is it schizophrenia

or is it demons it becomes a lot more

clear okay I think we have some more

information here I think schizophrenia

better explains what's happening with

this person than some supernatural

explanation right that's an easy example

I think most people are on board with

but then I started to do that with

everything like literally everything

when it comes comes to God and spiritual

experience and awe and transcendence and

uh people seeing God on mushrooms and

near-death experiences and dreams and

and scripture and holy text and how you

feel when you sing. And I started to

look at that and say, is there a better

explanation when you're looking at this

from the side of this is a human

project? And the answer was yes. And I

didn't want that answer. That's what I

really want other people to know is that

is that a lot of people see my content

now and they'll say she wants to prove,

you know, I want to sin. I want to prove

that God isn't real and I because I'm

prideful, because I'm just this atheist.

Like you have to realize that I was

trying these ideas on because I'm a

truth seeker and I believed that that

the truth uh mattered and that the truth

could stand up to scrutiny. And but I

didn't want these answers. I I I really

didn't want these answers. This is not

what I was looking for. I was teaching

seminary. I was teaching teenagers from

the Bible. I was um you know in a

marriage where uh you know my husband

was a believer. I was raising my child

at the time in church and I everything

in my life was built on which is common

for people who go into theology school.

Everything in my life was built on the

idea of faith. Not just like you know my

friends and my family and my community

but my identity and my uh sense of

purpose and my sense of morality and my

sense of meaning and how I make

decisions and just literally every

aspect of my life was built on there

being a god. Um, so I didn't like any of

these answers. And when it got time for

me to write my dissertation,

I as I was thinking about what to write

my dissertation about, I had got to to

gotten to the point where I had to be

honest with myself that I no longer

believe in God. I once you put on that

lens to see is there a better way to

explain this from the point of view of

of secularism or or this being a human

project, does it make more s sense? And

the answer was yes.

So I never did write my dissertation.

Maybe one day I'll go go back and write something

something

something. Uh I don't I don't see even

now I don't even know what I would

write. Um maybe I'll go back at some

point and and write something just so I

can uh finish the thing. But I never

wrote that dissertation and I dropped

out of theology school and you know had

had nothing at the time and had to

rebuild which I've talked about in other

episodes. And so uh I learned that this

is a very common experience that I'm not

the only person who went in the went

into theology to be able to find God or

get closer to God and then ends up

losing God in the process. It's actually

a very very common thing that happens to

the point now that churches are starting

to try to make their own kind of higher

education because they know if they send

these these kids to theology school that

uh half of them they're never going to

see again because they're going to lose

their faith in the process. So now I

want to talk about why it is that way.

um you know not just my story but now

kind of the broader story of what's

going on in theology school in America

and what is the data that we have on

that and then kind of where that leads

us and I also want to talk about kind of

the big secret of a as someone who's

been in that circle there was like this

Tik Tok that went viral that asked

what's something that's common in your

field that everybody knows but the

general population doesn't know and so I

do want to give some of those like

insider perspectives

at some point. But let's start with the

data that we do have on theology school

in general. So the the big study that

people cite a lot is the Daniel Dennett

study uh called preachers who are not

believers which was in 2013. And this is

this qualitative um research is is one

of the most cited studies in this area.

They interviewed Protestant clergy who

had lost their belief in God and usually

it was during seminary and a lot of them

continued to work in ministry roles and

so many reported that seminary was the

turning point in their deconversion and

aspects of that was like exposure to

higher criticism, understanding biblical

authorship that you know the people

writing these books are not people who

were just like walking around with Jesus

taking notes. you know, these were

stories that were uh passed around

campfires for decades and then someone

wrote them down and that starts to all

break down and then you get into the

biblical contradictions and you get to

the mythical elements and you get into

just the mess of what the Bible is. uh

in addition to philosophical training if

you get part of that in your seminary

and one of the pastor's uh quotes from

the study was seminary is where faith

goes to die because as soon as you start

to look at this thing it starts to fall

apart. So, it's this weird situation I

meet every day where people who don't

study the Bible tell me what's in it,

and then people who've actually studied

the Bible tell you that it's complex,

that it's contradictory, that it's myth

on top of translation, on top of myth,

on top of a scribe adding something

here, on top of this person says that

it's, you know, from this apostle, but

it's probably not. It's some of the

prophecies don't come true. And, uh, you

know, it's not often written by the

apostle that it claims to be. And when

it comes to Jesus, of course, like these

aren't eyewitnesses at all. And

sometimes God loses battles or sometimes

God commands genocide and slavery. And

God changes a lot based on how the

society changes. And it's just a mess.

And when you go into theology school, uh

especially if you were kind of raised in

church, you don't think that the Bible

is like that because you're taught that

the Bible is like this is the word of

God. And you know, this is this is the

doctrine here. And it it comes across as

if it's this more solid thing. And when

you start studying it, it starts falling

apart. And we also have the clergy

project which was founded from the

research from Daniel Dennett where now

there's a support group for the clergy

members who don't fully believe anymore

either as active pastors or former

pastors and most of them lost their

faith in school. And so former pastors

will often talk about this crisis that

happened when they start reading people

like Bartman learning about historical

Jesus um encountering theodysy problems.

Theodysy being you know the problem of

evil which is a really hard problem to

solve. Why did God have to sacrifice

himself in order to redeem his own

creation when I can just forgive without

any additional violence? What does that

mean that I can do something good that

God can't? Why did God create a system

where animals suffer for no salvific

reason? Because they don't learn moral

lessons when they are being eaten alive.

Why have millions of years of animal

suffering for no reason? You know,

starving, 99% going extinct without

humans even there. That's just cruel.

So, if God can interact with man, why be

silent for most of human history when

just imagine how scary it would have

been to be a human 5,000 years ago? You

don't know why people drop dead. You

don't know why there's an earthquake.

You don't know why the sun comes up. And

most people who have ever lived have

never heard of the correct god, whatever

that god is. This is the question that

even Richard Roar, the the Christian

mystic who I actually really like, um

says troubles him the most, which is why

would God create man to be so

superstitious? What was the point of all

of that? What is the point of all of

this? Um and all of these problems you

start to take seriously when you study

the Bible, when you study philosophy,

when you study religious commentary,

when you start studying other religions

and seeing that things like virgin

births are something that we do all the

time. Um when you start studying the

cognitive science of religion and what

becomes more and more clear is that this

is a human project. This project of

creating gods and everyone being sure of

their religion even though millions of

gods have already died and no longer are

being worshiped. Eventually you start to

take that step back as you are learning

all of this and looking at this from

different perspectives where you start

to have the thought of you know it's

like metacognition almost for the first

time where you start to say hey just

because I feel this thing when there's a

key change in a song about Jesus maybe

that actually doesn't mean that my

religion is true and everyone else's is

false maybe something bigger is going on

and then you start you know asking that

question of of what does it look like to

try to explain holy books and gods and

religions and why we co-evolved with

religion from a secular point of view

and then faith starts falling apart

because what is even the value of faith

why is faith believing in something

despite evidence or evidence that you

can't see why is that the highest moral

value for a god over compassion over

integrity over love over you know all

choose a you know choose a virtue choose

is a core value. All of that would be

better than faith. Why is faith at the

highest peak of of our um of our moral

hierarchy of values here? And it starts

just to make no sense. So what we're

seeing is that theology school is

creating atheists. And we when we look

at Harvard Divinity School, it is now

being run by an atheist. Greg Greg

Epstein has been the non-believing

humanist chaplain at Harvard since 2005.

He's an atheist. Um he said regarding

his like chapency's mission that his

goal is to serve students who find

themselves without faith highlighting a

need for spiritual care that goes beyond

religious structures. Now what we don't

know what I can't tell you is the

percent of the percentage of Christians

who lose their faith in theology school.

We can only guess at this because uh we

don't have a lot of studies on that for

one and the studies that we do have uh

like everything is so private like you

you know people talk about they're going

through their doubt phases behind closed

doors and so it's not even something

that's discussed openly and so we can't

get a sense of the numbers but our best

guess because we do have one study from

the Fuller Seminary that said about a

third of people uh experience a major

crisis of faith while in seminary. So a

third and then um of that group so

that's like 33% of that group you know

10% will move on to some kind of more

nuanced version of faith uh and then

about 20% will lose their faith

altogether. And so maybe that's not a

lot like you know one in five from that

study but just like imagine a a medicine

program where one in five people who go

in to become a doctor come out not

believing in science anymore. like

that's still a lot. Like these are

people who didn't want to lose their

faith. They were they were allin people

like me who um you know lose their faith

in theology school. So across the board

what we do know from the studies that we

do have uh and again I you know we can't

get a sense of the numbers but when when

you hear someone say I became an atheist

in theology school it's it's very

common. Um

but across the board the main reasons

for losing faith include you know

looking at the Bible with a a critical

lens with a historical critical method

lens and realizing that the Bible has

multiple authors and contradictions.

It's culturally cult culturally situated

in a context going into the philosophy

of religion, you know, grappling with

the problem of evil, divine

hiddenenness, which is like if God is

here, like where where's God? Alex

Okconor had um a debate one time where

he asked someone like I've been, you

know, Alex Okconor, like me, is an

atheist. He started out more atheistic

than I did. I I kind of made that

transition. But he um also spent a lot

of time in in school studying God and

theology and religion. And he asked

someone he was in debate with, "I've

looked for God. I've lived like a

Christian. I've read everything. I've

prayed. I've fasted. I've studied. Um

you know, I read the poems. I read the

mystics. I'm trying everything to be

able to have some kind of experience

with God and nothing." And so the

debater in response said um and like

this was the I guess the best answer

that you can do with this question. He

said that Alex is a better atheist for

the world than if he were a Christian

because he helps to refine Christianity

and religion with his questions and with

his critiques. So God is absent because

God would rather have Alex be an

atheist. Um, and so that that was an

interesting answer to watch that play

out in debate. And then also like

epistemology, how do you know that your

religion is true when everyone believes

their ism is true? Like then, you know,

something else must be going on here.

Uh, comparative religion, when you start

realizing that Christianity is not

unique when it comes to other religions,

virgin births are a dime a dozen.

Buddha, Egyptian gods. Whenever we want

to make someone special in a in a in a

story, we do a virgin birth because we

want this character to come into the

world, not the way that everybody else

does, which is like, you know, someone

having sex in the shed in the back or

whatever. So, we always do a virgin

birth backstory to to important people.

And then there's the moral distress,

coming into contact with the Bible's

violence and sexism and problematic

texts that have caused real harm into

the world. And so if you accept that

this is the way that God spoke to us and

God knew that certain verses would cause

unbelievable suffering, then God either

wasn't powerful enough to influence the

text or not good or doesn't care or

doesn't give a [ __ ] right? And then

there's also the peer deconstructions,

finding out that even professors that

you thought were like, "Hey, he's smart.

He must know something that I don't."

This was this was part of it for me

because when I was younger, I really

believed that these adults are smarter

than me. So, they see something then

that I don't. And then when you get

behind closed doors, you realize all

your professors are deconstructing their

faith and doing mental gymnastics and

they struggle with some aspects of

faith. And um when you learn that the

people you thought who were smarter than

you, who maybe um had reasons for their

faith that you didn't see yet, when you

realize that they're quietly doubting

too, it can also blow up your own faith.

And the big secret

um you know this this Tik Tok thing went

that went viral which is what is the

common knowledge in your field that

general general people don't know. And

for sure, the thing we all know in

theology school is that the Bible is

complicated. That things are allegorical

at best because literal interpretations

can't be true. And the Bible itself

cannot all be true. Um, and that

everyone has doubts and nonliteral

beliefs. And then they're expected as

pastors to give the congregation the

certainty that the congregation wants,

even though they know that it's more

complicated than that. And so in

seminaries behind closed school doors,

it's totally normal to go to school and

uh for your teacher to say things like

Genesis is clearly, you know, a mythical

origin story and we, you know, it's

borrowing these Babylonian sources or

Isaiah is written by at least three

different authors or um look at how

these nativity accounts contradict each

other. Um these are not just fringe

claims. This is this is consensus among

biblical scholars, even those who are

believers, right? Um, and so in

seminary, you're trained to hold

complexity. You're trained to read

ancient languages. You're trained to

understand historical context and

literary form. You learn that sacred

texts weren't written in a vacuum and

weren't dropped from the sky. They're

shaped by politics and power and oral

tradition and the anxieties of an

ancient people who don't even know what

germs are trying to make sense of the

world. And that honesty never makes it

to the pulpit because the modern church

isn't built to hold that kind of

uncertainty. Most congregants. Most

religious people don't come to church

for nuance. They come for clarity and

comfort and a sense of meaning and they

want answers and they want confidence.

They want their pastor to say, "Here's

what God wants you to do." Not, "Well,

ancient scribes disagreed about this and

this Hebrew word here is ambiguous and

the archaeology complicates things

further. Like pastors know know this.

They've been trained to hold multiple

interpretations while at the same time

training to dumb things down to protect

the faith of their flock. And that often

means withholding the very tools that

seminary gave them. And so the great

secret in my field is that pastors, all

pastors talk to each other behind closed

doors or in academic settings or or to

each other differently than how they

talk to their congregation. and they

learn how to do this like you know it's

a concept called don't scare the sheep

or sometimes it's called milk before

meat. Uh meaning you have to soften the

complexity to give people what they're

wanting out of church and what they're

paying you for. Um and so because that's

how often how you're getting paid,

you're not really incentivized to rock

that boat too much. And so what happens

is it creates this two-tier system of

theological discourse in a seminary

classroom. complexity is expected uh

behind the scenes. Even conservative

pastors will admit that they wrestle

with doubt, that they don't take every

verse literally, that they reinterpret

difficult passages to preserve some kind

of morality. But on Sunday morning, they

simplify, they sanitize, they emit, they

become translators. And not necessarily

because they're lying or being

deceptive. like um for example like a a

kindergarten teacher who's teaching

science is going to like meet the

children where they are even though they

know that whatever thing that they're

saying like birds fly or whatever they

know that it's more complex than that.

Um but they know that you know the

academic historical literary

psychological truth would destabilize

uh where people are in their faith when

they're coming to church. And then those

people would never make it to the more

complex versions of faith. And then they

would lose their job. So in their mind,

it helps no one to give people

complexity when people are showing up

for simplicity. And that's the quiet

kind of crisis of modern theology.

There's a gap between what the clergy

know when you actually study the Bible

and what the ley are told. And once

you're on the inside and you see, you

know, behind the sacred curtain, it's

hard to unsee it. So for some it will uh

give you a crisis of faith that will

deepen into something more mature. Uh

but eventually as that comes out in

whatever religion you're in, you you'll

often get exccommunicated for being

heretical in some way. And then for

others like me, it marks the beginning

of the end. And so we have another

study. It's Nancy Ammerman's

ethnographic research on pastors which

was in 1997. And it was in-depth

interviews with pastors. And it found

that most clergy kind of manage this

kind of dual consciousness where they're

privately aware of complex academic

theology, but they're publicly focused

on tradition and clarity and cohesion

and being helpful for people and and and

what people essentially want from

church. A quote from one pastor in that

study was, "We have to interpret things

in ways that people can hear. You can't

dump the documentary hypothesis on

someone in a sermon. And then we have

the Barner Group uh research on pastors

and doubt which was also in 2017 and it

said that 26% of pastors said that they

frequently study uh struggle with doubt

uh but they fear losing their role. They

are concerned about affecting people's

faith and the ethics behind that. And so

they just struggle privately behind

closed doors. And there's also this

belief that doubt is something that

needs to be privately processed.

Otherwise, you are damaging other

people's faith and then what if you're

wrong and what if what if God, you know,

throws you in hell for that? It's a

whole thing. And so across the

literature, what we're finding is that

clergy and seminary that are trained in

critical methods, source criticism,

comparative religion, historical

theology, it really starts to blow up

faith to even to uh create a deeper

faith which then you have to struggle

with uh because you know your

congregation's not going to want that or

you're going to lose all your faith, you

know, altogether. And once you're placed

in a church, you're going to feel

pressured to simplify and sanitize. And

this creates that dual discourse where I

will show you videos uh you can you can

see them where an academ academic

conference or theological conference or

clergy talking to each other and they

have one language for that and then they

have one language that they use for

their congregation and it's really

interesting to kind of watch that double

speak. Now, why this is getting to be

such a problem in America is that not

only does the congregation not want uh

complex theology, they just want watered

down theology. Um, and that's just kind

of always been the case and that's just

human nature. But with the environment

in America being as political as it is

right now with political identity first,

now your congre now your congregation

wants theology that supports their

political identity on both sides of the

aisle. I'm not even just talking about

the Christian right. I'm talking about

churches that operate on on the

political left as well. And so, not only

do you want a pastor to water down the

complexity of the Bible or um you know,

whatever aspect of your faith is, now

you also have to make it political.

Otherwise, you lose your congregation.

And we know this. People in America are

now more political than they are

theological. It used to be the the deal

uh 50 years ago that your religion would

guide your politics and now your

politics guide your religion. And so all

of this is like a big Dunning Krueger

effect where those who know about

religion in the Bible um or or sorry

those who don't know about religion in

the Bible and haven't studied it to this

level feel like they know what's in it.

And then those who go to school for that

know that it's a goddamn mess. And then

the ones that know that it's a mess are

secretly doubting or doing mental

gymnastics behind closed doors and are

being paid by the ones who want simple

politically charged theology. And yeah,

seeing all of that, seeing that sausage

factory is what makes theology school an

atheist factory. So, I'm going to pause

my notes here for a second because I'm

getting better at like anticipating the

comment that's going to come back

because like religious debates and just

debates with religious people in

general, they tend to have like things

that you'll predict that they're going

to say. And I know I can feel it in my

bones. The comment that's going to come

back is like, yes, you, you know,

there's issues with some scriptures and

there's issues with contradictions, but

if you just read this book and then

watch this YouTube video and then listen

to this guy, it'll all make sense. And

you start to play that game. And I have

so many people, I cannot even tell you

the emails that you get. I get thousands

of emails that say, you know, I've

listened to some of your concerns about

religion and I'll I'll get these like

long tree ties kind of uh emails where

they will show if you watch this and

read this book and then use this word to

mean that and and it's like this

incredibly complex structure of

apologetics to keep it going, then uh

you'll see that there's still room for

faith here and and you know this God is

still real or this religion is still

true or whatever it is. And the problem

with doing that, because I know there's

going to be some people who watch this

and are tempted to send that email to

me, the problem with doing that is the

more complex your apologetics gets,

which I, you know, I've studied some of

the most complex, nuanced, internally

consistent theological systems. Uh, the

more complex that it gets, the more

unethical it is because then you're

saying that

You know, for billions of people, this

is just a confusing mess. But if you

watch the correct combination of not

only the Bible, but Bible commentary and

books and this YouTube and this and this

pastor and then William Craig said this,

and if you put it all together, it'll

make sense. And then you can, you know,

have faith in it. And and this is, you

know, the the most rational way to to

look at God and make sense of the

universe. And even if you do that in

such a way where I look at it and I say,

you know what, that is internally

consistent. That is a a complex

theological system that makes sense.

Even if I give you that, you then have

to believe in a god that for everybody

else except you didn't do that. And so

everybody else is confused except you.

And so then you have to accept that you

live in a universe. And this is the

pride that I could never like I see

people have this kind of pride in ego.

Like you think atheists have pride. I

think this is the most prideful move

that you can make honestly. But I see

people who truly believe that billions

of people are wrong about their

intuitions about God and religion. but

that they were not only lucky but so

blessed and so godamn special that they

were not only born into the right

religion but born into the right form of

that religion and born in the right time

and watched the correct YouTube videos

in the correct order with the correct

books with the correct apologetics

to finally understand the secrets of the

universe and everybody else is confused.

and has to go through life being very

confused about what the [ __ ] is going on

here. So, I just like you can do that.

Like I see people make that move here

and I know people are going to want want

to write that email to me. But even if

you're right, like even if one of those

emails actually did figure it out, they

figured out the mysteries of the

universe, they they put together the

right combin combination of biblical

passages in order to really say, "I

think we've got it." Even if that were

true, I'm going to give it to you that

you're right and that's true. I wouldn't

worship a god that created a system

where billions of people are so confused

and so superstitious and and suffering

for reasons that they don't understand

just so you could figure it out. That's

unethical. Like that sucks. Like I can't

I can't possibly believe that. And so

the more that's the problem with with

apologetics getting more and more

complex is the more that you do that the

more it's a shitty god. And so even even

apologetics starts to kind of like be a

snake that eats its own tail because the

more work you have to do to try to make

sense of this and to try to make sense

of faith um the more unethical it is

that God created the world the way the

way that he you know claims to have made

in these religions. So, that's just like

some preventative measures for the

emails that I'm going to get where

someone and it's usually a man like I'm

just going to say it like it it it uh

99.9% of the time is is a man who emails

me telling telling me that they've

figured out the the mysteries of the

universe. And I just I've I've gone that

direction and I've been tempted to

study, you know, as as many of these as

they can. I read so many books of of

people who have claimed to put it all

together and it just falls apart when

you when you start to look at it because

it just makes this situation for

everybody else so incredibly unethical.

And you can't get out of this by just

saying free will. Like if I drop my

child off in Skid Row and tell them like

don't eat this apple and I write some

graffiti on the wall that they're

supposed to find and believe but also

ignore all the other graffiti on all the

other walls. um and that child ends up

in a bad situation, we don't say, well,

you know, that child had free will. We

say that's a shitty parent. Like that

parent shouldn't have brought that child

in the world to suffer with so little

tools and so little presence. And so

that's when you start to really see

religion for what it is, something that

we co-evolved with. And then like you

start reading like Yuval Harrari and

Sapiens and that once humans get over

150 people. Um religion is the most

powerful tool we've ever created because

now we can have shared stories and we

can grow to have communities that are

over 150 people and that was huge. So

once you and I kind of believe the same

sacred myth suddenly we could cooperate

more deeply. We'd trust each other more.

We could build bigger tribes. We could

bury our dead. We could have rituals. We

could have rights of passage. we could

create kingdoms and empires. And so

myths, whether it's myths about gods or

nations, are allowed are what allowed us

to go from like these scattered foragers

to rulers of the planet. And religion is

the original mythmaking machine and

engine behind that. And then Daniel

Dennit focuses on the mechanics and he

calls religion a kind of evolutionary

parasite that hijacked these useful

cognitive functions. And so at the base

of religion, what we see is um is our

ability to detect agency outside of us.

So if the grass rustles, it's um better

to assume that it's a lion than just the

wind. We have this agent detection

system that keeps us alive. But the

byproduct of keeping us alive is that we

are the descendants of the most

superstitious people because the ones

who thought there might be a lion there

and ran away are the ones who survived.

And so now we don't just anticipate a

lion in the grass. We also see in our

mind's eye things like gods and skies

and spirits and ghosts and aliens. And

then we add to that our ability to tell

stories and you know our human fears and

boom like religion. And so Dennett

points out that once these religious

stories become useful for bonding

communities and enforcing rules and

promising justice after death now we

start selecting for it culturally. And

the religions that spread were the ones

that helped societ society survive

better by giving the society things that

society needs to survive as a group but

also individually what helps us like we

don't have death anxiety if you have

some story where you cheat death. So

over time we co-evolved our brains got

better at believing and religions got

better at sticking and providing more

and more things. And so basically we've

evolved to be these meaning makers and

religion evolved to be a meaning

supplier and we co-evolved with it in

the same way that bees co-evolved with

flowers. And so the more complex we

became socially and emotionally, the

more elaborate religion became in in

response to that. And so this didn't

happen because religion is true in any

empirical sense. In fact, as far as

religion being good for you and studies

that show that religion is good for you,

it doesn't actually matter what the

religion is. Uh what matters is how is

it useful psychologically, socially,

politically and religion gave us the

glue for cooperation.

And it also gave us a lot of things

individually individually that we need.

Which brings us to Karl Marx who's often

misqued for just saying that religion is

the opium um of the people like it's

just this cheap drug for stupid people.

And that's not what he meant. The full

quote is much deeper. Religion is the

sigh of the oppressed creature, the

heart of a heartless world, the soul of

soulless conditions. It is the opium of

the people. So it's not he's not saying

it's a drug for stupid people. He's

saying this is a pretty rough world and

religion is what we've created to try to

make it a little bit better and try to

create communities and try to make

stories that make it not so damn scary

and hard to be a human. So Markx wasn't

saying that religion is just illusion.

He's saying it's a response to

suffering. It's a it's a response to the

reality that we find ourselves in

injustice and poverty and death and

meaninglessness. And we don't know why

we're here. And so if you're living

under brutal conditions with no power

and no hope, religion gives you comfort

and purpose and justice, even if it is

after death. And you pull it all

together and you really see that

religion isn't invented in this top-

down way. It grew alongside of us and

for us because we created it to be what

we needed it to be. It helped us survive

and organize and cope. And in that way,

it's not just that religion, we made

religion. Religion also made us. And so,

like any evolutionary adaptation, it

also means that it may not fit the

modern world anymore. We have an

evolutionary urge to eat all the sugar

when we get a taste of sugar because our

old brains are like, "Wow, this fruit is

only going to be ripe for a little bit

and then winter is coming so we need to

eat all this fruit and it hasn't

adjusted to the reality that I don't

need any more sugar in my life. I have

sugar all around me all the time." And

so now we're stuck like we're we're

evolutionarily stuck because we just

don't um evolve fast enough for the

modern world. We're stuck in this place

where theology school teaches

complexity. People want out of religion

safety, comfort, and simplicity. And in

America especially, they want political

validation for their political identity.

Which means now there's this huge

disconnect between pastors and their

congregations. And anyone in the

business knows this. But the

congregation doesn't know how much their

theology is being filtered and watered

down. How much the pastor has changed or

even lost their faith. How much their

pastor doesn't even really believe

literal interpretations of the Bible or

how differently they talk to each other

than they do to you. And so for some,

they come out of that experience in

theology school with like a super

nuanced mystical interfaith version of

religion that is like science friendly

and all of that. And I spent some time

there too. And that's like a natural

that's a natural first place to start

because it's the brain trying to hold on

to the religious benefits by making it

more and more complex and nuanced so you

can hold on to it. But for me and a lot

of others in theology school, you start

to see humans more and more behind this

project until you kind of like it's like

the God box gets smaller and smaller

until you like open the box one day and

there's no God in it at all. In the same

way that you can study the brain long

enough to say, "Wow, this really seems

to all we can explain all this at the

level of the brain. I don't even know

where a soul would fit into this." And

so your belief of the soul goes away

when you study the brain. And when you

study psychology, you become more and

more sure that this is schizophrenia,

not demons. And you just keep going

until there are better human and

scientific, naturalistic, psychological,

sociological, anthropological reasons

for what we're doing with religion. And

the god of the gats just becomes so

small that it disappears one day until

you get to the point that even if we

were created by some god like deism, not

theism, some higher power, some source,

then that god is either evil or not

powerful in us enough for us to care

about it. Because even if that were

true, we're alone when it comes to

actually trying to make the place the

world a place that we want to live. And

so at some point the question stops

being is it true? because the answer is

really no. And it becomes why do I need

it to be true? And once you ask that,

theology school doesn't just deconstruct

your beliefs. It starts to deconstruct

your reasons for believing, your fear,

your longing, your tribalism, your need

for justice in an unjust world. And then

you start to realize that you, just like

ancient peoples you've been studying,

created the God that you needed all

along, too. And if you can get better

resources for whatever that thing that

you need is that you created God for,

then your brain stops making gods at

all. It's mental work that my brain no

longer does because I have tools and

resources for all the reasons that we

create gods. And so, am I afraid of

God's wrath in my, you know, falling

apart here when it comes to theology?

Like, no. I'm not afraid of God's wrath

because a God worthy of worship would

know that I went to theology school to

try to get closer to God. would know

that I didn't choose to lose my belief,

would know that even now I'm trying to

help people by helping them rebuild some

kind of meaningful moral, spiritual,

communal, happy life when they've lost

their religious faith. And a God worthy

of worship, I think, would would

understand that. So, no, I'm not afraid

of God's wrath. And that's the thing

about Christianity and and why it breeds

atheism is it it it teaches you that

truth is good and worth pursuing and

that morality matters. And then when you

develop those skills, it ends up turning

on Christianity itself. And so that's

like the poetic tragedy of it. That

Christianity teaches you to value truth,

that truth will set you free, that

honesty and integrity matters, that

knocking and seeking will lead to

finding. It teaches you that that um the

good is worth sacrificing for. And

Christianity instills these values deep

in your bones to pursue truth. To live

ethically, don't settle for li to for

lies. Be brave, be courageous, don't

look away from injustice. And so you do,

you read, you study, you ask the hard

questions, you go to seminary, you take

um the Bible at its word. And then you

actually internalize those values and

you come face to face with the parts of

Christianity that can't withstand them.

And you eventually, it's like

Christianity trains you how to leave it.

And so the doubters in theology school

make the final move, which is to take

all of that truth seeeking and moral

courage that you've been practicing

within Christianity and now take that

scary step to step outside of it. Not

because it's cool, not because you

wanted to, not because you get to sin,

you know, whatever that is. Um, but

because it's not true. It's not and

often it's not good. And perhaps that's

the most Christian move to do of all to

ha to learn in Christianity moral

courage and fidelity to truth. And these

stories that talk about leaving behind

your possessions and your job and your

family and your identity for what's true

and what's right. And maybe in some

final irony, the ones who go to theology

school and then end up leaving

Christianity, maybe that is actually the

most Christian move you can make of all.

So that's how I follow Jesus. Now, uh,

when people ask me what Jesus is to me,

how I follow Jesus is I want to flip the

same tables that Jesus flipped. I want

to be the good Samaritan where the

Samaritan didn't have correct beliefs,

but he had the most loving actions and

he sat and mourned with those that

mourned and helped people who were

hurting. And so, that's how I follow

Jesus. Now, I don't have any faith that

Jesus is divine or all of the stories

that we wrote later trying to make this

mystic, homeless, radical man into a

god. Uh but there are beautiful things

about those parables about about love

and about ego and about um character

that matters and about um integrity and

about truth and about flipping tables of

of the bureaucracy and the institution

and and when we turn the sacred into

money and into businesses.

And so there's still something in Jesus

that I'm still drawn to that I feel

still feel is beautiful even though I

don't have any faith that he was any

more than a man. And he's like so many

other mystic teachers that we've had

like Roomie and Rabia and and Buddha and

and he's in that camp of of homeless

people who saw something more in the law

than how people were using it at the

time. that there was there was some

beauty underneath that some some mystic branch

branch

uh underneath that. I'm just blabbing on

here that is still that is still

beautiful and worth holding on to and

worth even seeking. Even if all of our

religions were wrong, even if there's no

God at all, even if this is just a human

project, there's still a baby in that

bathwater that's worth pursuing. Even if

all of this is just a human project. So,

I'll see you next week and let me know

what you thought about today's episode,

which was all about how Theology School

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How Theology School Turned Me Into an Atheist