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Financial Expert: Passive Income Is A Scam! Post-Traumatic Broke Syndrome Is Controlling Millions!

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People talk a lot about passive income. This

This

>> is not a thing. Look, there's two ways

to get wealthier, and passive income is

not part of that equation, but what's

really important for people is how we

should spend money. Cuz I've written

about money and finance and investing

for 20 years, and I can tell you the

correlation between how much you spend

and how happy you are. It can exist, but

it is not as simple as you think. Morgan

Hel is the legendary financial guru,

>> revealing that everything we've been

told about saving and spending money

>> could be our biggest downfall. And

here's why. If you're unhappy with your

life, it is a very easy assumption to

make that if you had more money, a

bigger house, a better car, whatever it

might be, things would be better. And

it's a lie we tell ourselves, of course,

because here's the truth. So much of

spending is a psychological itch that

you're trying to scratch. And that

manifests in so many different ways. For

example, life is a competition. It

doesn't matter how well I'm doing, it

matters how well I'm doing relative to

you. And the most tangible way to do

that is through material stuff.

>> I was reading some funny stats. They say

that if you win the lottery, the

probability of your neighbor going

bankrupt increases.

>> It's an amazing statistic. So, be

careful who you socialize with because

you're going to anchor to them as a

baseline level of success and happiness.

>> So, is it wrong to buy a Rolex?

>> Absolutely not. But when it's

controlling your personality, it's no

different than any other addiction where

it's forcing you to do things that you

otherwise don't want to do.

>> What about people who don't seem to

spend anything?

>> It's just as dangerous. Like there's

something called post-traumatic broke

syndrome and I'll talk about that. But I

guarantee you that everyone can spend

money in a way it's going to make them happier.

happier.

>> So if I wanted to make a framework to

know how to spend my money, where do I

start? But also based on everything you

know about money, if I want to get

complete financial freedom, what's the

five things that I should be thinking about?

about?

>> The first thing that I think that's most

important is

>> I see messages all the time in the

comment section that some of you didn't

realize you didn't subscribe. So, if you

could do me a favor and double check if

you're a subscriber to this channel,

that would be tremendously appreciated.

It's the simple, it's the free thing

that anybody that watches this show

frequently can do to help us here to

keep everything going in this show in

the trajectory it's on. So, please do

double check if you've subscribed and uh

thank you so much because a strange way

you are you're part of our history and

you're on this journey with us and I

appreciate you for that. So, yeah, thank you

Morgan.

Everybody loves to talk about investing.

They love to talk about saving money.

But I've never heard anybody emphasize

the importance of spending money. You've

written this book, The Art of Spending.

So, it begs the question, why would

someone like you who sells tens of

millions of copies of their books when

they write about something and really,

really cares about the art of writing

commit themselves to writing a book

about the art of spending? when you

couldn't when you could have written

anything that you wanted to and it would

have been a success.

>> So I've written about money and finance

and investing for 20 years and almost

never had I myself

said what is my spending philosophy? I

could tell you how I invest. I can tell

you how I save. I could tell you why I

do those things. If five years ago if

you said Morgan tell me your philosophy

about spending in your own life I'd be

like I I don't really know. And as I

looked into it, there are literally tens

of thousands of books on how to invest,

how to grow your money, how to get rich,

how to help your career. That top that

topic is endless. There is virtually no

book out there written about spending

money. And I think the reason why is

because we don't I think we intuitively

think nothing needs to be said because

the answer should be obvious. More is

better, fancier is better. That's the

end of the topic. But if you know

particularly wealthier people I mean it

affects everybody but particularly

wealthier people you know it's not that

simple that the correlation between how

much you spend and how happy you are it

it can exist everyone can spend money in

a way it's going to make them happier

but it is not as simple as you think and

as I started digging into it in my own

life of when have I been envious of

other people of their material

possessions why was I envious why when

have I been jealous why was I jealous

what kind of spending made me happy.

What left me completely flat?

It's it's a much more complicated topic

than it seems at the surface. You know,

another title for the book could have

been the psychology of spending money

because that's what this is. So, it's a

look at the psychology of greed and envy

and social aspiration and like climbing

the social ladder, who you're trying to

impress, whether those people are paying

any attention to you. That's what this

book is. So for someone like me who

wants to improve my relationship with

spending, I guess the question, yeah, I

guess the qu first question is

understanding the art of spending money,

simple choices for a rich, what is it

going to do for me? How is it going to

make my life better to understand this?

Why why does it matter to the person

that's listening right now?

>> I think it is a very easy assumption to

make if you're unhappy with your life

that if you had more money, those

problems would go away.

>> Sometimes it can be true. It's not

automatically false. It's just easier to

assume that that's true than it actually

is. And so I guarantee you that every

single person listening to this right

now has some degree of that. If I had a

little bit more money, my problems would

go away, even if they don't necessarily

know it or not. So much of spending is a

psychological exercise. There's an itch

that you're trying to scratch and that

manifests in so many different ways. And

so I've often thought of money, look, is

money the root of society, the core of

society? No. There's obviously a million

things more important than money, but I

do think it's the clearest window that

we can look through to try to figure out

what's going on in our own lives, in

other people's lives, in society. It

shows very starkly what people value,

what they're scared of, what they're

aspiring to become. There are many more

elements to the puzzle. Your health,

your friends, your family. We can go on

that forever. But money is a very clear

window that if you see how somebody

engages with money, you're like, "Oh, I

understand your insecurities. I

understand your aspirations. I

understand your self-confidence. I

understand what you think of other

people. You can learn a lot about that.

>> It's kind of like a reflection of your

your trauma.

>> Yes. And it it manifests in very

different ways. There's a great

financial writer named name named

Tiffany Alish and she's uh she grew up

very very poor and now she's extremely

successful and she calls it

post-traumatic broke syndrome where even

though she has a lot of money right now,

she I I don't want to put words in her

mouth. My understanding is like she's

she's afraid to spend it because she's

the the feeling in her head is I will

never go back to that I can't ever go

back to that poor person post-traumatic

broke. And so it can manifest in very

different sometimes opposite ways. And

so the point is not like if you grew up

poor, you're going to want to display

it. But the point is that it's a

psychological itch. It it's not just I

want the nice car because nice cars are

better. There's a social signaling

you're signaling to others. You're

signaling to yourself. It's a trophy for

yourself of what you've overcome. The

more I dug into it, the more it was so

clear of like spending is not just on

material stuff. It's not just I want to

buy this car or this house or these

clothes or these jewelry because it's

nice. It's I'm trying to send a signal

to others or to myself of what I've

overcome. One of the ways I thought

about this in my own life was if I was

on a deserted island with maybe just

just me and and my family, nobody could

see how we were living. Nobody can see

your house, nobody can see your car,

nobody can see your clothes, nobody can

see your jewelry. How would I live? For

me, and I think most people in that

exercise, you immediately gravitate away

from status and towards utility like I

would not want a Lamborghini. I probably

want like a pickup truck, something that

has like more util if nobody could see

it. I would just want utility. I would

not want an enormous house. I would want

a house with a nice view because I'm not

trying to show off to other people. I

just want something that is calming and

and serene to myself. And so once you

start seeing the stark difference

between utility and status,

once you once you force yourself to see

it, you're like, "Oh, it's everywhere."

>> Is something inherently wrong with

status? Is it wrong to buy a Rolex?

>> Absolutely not. Particularly at certain

points of your life.

>> Okay. So, when when is it good? When is

it bad? When is it in different like indifferent?

indifferent?

>> I don't know. I don't know. It's hard to

say what's good and bad in terms of a

formula because everybody's different.

But I would say this, my own personal

but the reason why is because I had

nothing else to offer the world. I had

no intelligence. I had no wisdom. I

didn't know how to love anyone. I had

nothing else to offer friends, family,

spouses, whatever it would be. And so

the last remaining lever, if you're

trying to get attention and respect, is

well, look, I have no intelligence to

offer. I have no wisdom to offer. maybe

people will admire me for my car.

>> That was why I wanted it.

>> And now that I I hope in a in I I hope

to today, 20 years later, I have a

little bit more to offer to my wife, to

my friends, to my family, to employers

and customers, whatnot, then my desire

for those things has gone down. Not to

zero, but it's gone down. There's a

great Warren Buffett quote where he

says, "Success in life is when the

people who you want to love you do love

you." And key to that is like you have

to ask the question like who do you want

to love you. And for a lot of people the

quick knee-jerk reaction is everybody.

And so you want to have a nice car, nice

clothes, nice jewelry because you think

everyone's going to stop and stare. When

I drive this down the road, people are

going to be stop and say, "Look at that

guy. Look, look at her. That's amaz

I admire them. I respect them." And by

and large, that is almost never true

because no one's thinking about you as

much as you are. They're not they're not

paying attention to your car or your

clothes or your house. They're busy

worrying about themselves. Jimmy Carr, I

think you've had on the show before. Is

that right?

>> Love Jimmy Carr. He said this a couple

weeks ago, I heard it and it was one of

those I had to stop and write it down

because it was so profound. He said, "In

your 20s, people worry about what other

people think of them. In your 30s, you

say, I don't care what anybody thinks of

me. And in your 40s, you finally

realized a truth, which was nobody was

thinking about you the whole time. They

were busy worrying about themselves. And

look, that's not black and white. Of

course, people think about you and look

at you and sometimes judge you, but not

nearly to the extent that we think. And

that was why I get back to the exercise.

If nobody was watching, how would I

live? The truth is because virtually

nobody is watching except the people who

I really love and admire and they're

gonna admire me for things that have

nothing to do with the kind of car that

I drive or the clothes that I wear.

>> What's the the evolutionary basis for

all of this stuff?

>> Life's a competition. It doesn't matter

how well I'm doing. It matters how well

I'm doing relative to you. It doesn't

matter how big my house is if I'm trying

to signal. All that matters is my house

is bigger than yours. That's true for

all wealth. There's no such thing as you

are wealthy once you have x number of

dollars. That that does not exist.

Everything is relative to other people.

And the truth is like we live in a world

of such material abundance where the

majority of people listening this will

have some sort of shelter and a car and

and can buy can buy clothes and whatnot.

And because relative to a lot of

history, we live in material abundance.

The competition, the arms race for

bigger nicer things is extraordinary.

And it's way more powerful and potent

today than it's ever been for two

reasons. One is social media. So I am

now aware of the homes that other people

live in, the cars that they drive, the

clothes that the vacations that they

take. I'm now aware of it in a way that

we were not 15 years ago. The other

thing is because the internet has democratized

democratized

access to audience and attention. The

ability to become extremely rich is much

more powerful than it's ever been. It's

still rare, of course, but it's it's

easier today than it's ever been to

become very very wealthy, even if only a

small number of people are doing it

because your your potential customer

base is now the entire world. You know,

a 100 years ago, if I was a businessman,

my customer base was whoever lived in my town.

town.

>> Now, if you're a businessman, your

customer base can be the entire world.

And so, it's easier to make a huge

fortune. And because of social media,

once you make that fortune, people are

probably going to know about it because

a lot of those people who become very

rich are going to say, "Look at how I'm

living." And so you have this like

trickle down aspiration of everyone else

being like my definition of wealthy. If

you're a young person today,

>> a young person's definition of wealthy

might be a multi-billionaire with a

private jet and a private island where I

think 80 years ago people's definition

of wealthy was a three-bedroom house and

one car and and a and a happy family.

And so we live in a world where like

aspirations have inflated by such a

dramatic degree that the arms race of

spending just gets that much that much higher.

higher.

>> I think there's something in this idea

that you almost have to develop the

skill of disconnecting your admiration

from your aspirations if you want to

live a good life because so many kids

will like look up to you and say I want

to be like Morgan when I'm older. um

because they admire what you've done,

but the reality is they they're just

seeing the sort of shop window. Yeah.

>> Of your life. And so I people do this

with Elon all the time,

>> right? And Elon has even said he's like,

"You might think you want to be me, but

you you don't."

>> And he the clip where he did that, he

pointed his head and he's like, "It's a

it's a tornado up here." And I think

that's true that for most people who are

extremely successful, who are the ones

that people tend to to look up to, like

the extreme outlier successes, a lot of

the reason they're so successful

financially and in their career is

because they've devoted every second of

their life to that career,

>> which most of the time comes at the

expense of everything else. So they are

very successful, made a lot of money,

and that came at the expense of their

health, their relationships,

relationships with their their spouses,

their children. So I make the point in

the book that of the top 10 richest men

in the world there are a cumulative 13

divorces among the top 10 richest people

>> and it's a small sample size like you

can't really you know say that that that

much with that but this is a group that

is almost universally admired

particularly among young men you know

Elon Musk Jeff Bezos Mark Zuckerberg how

how amazing would it be to have that

much money but if you dig into their

actual the the their whole life

>> not just their net worth not just the

house and the jet that they have but if

you look at holistically their entire

life, you're like, I don't know. It's

it's it's it's not that great. It's it's

one thing to admire someone if you can

pick bits and pieces. I want I want his

house and her car and his career and his

physique, but you can't pick bits and

pieces. You have to take the whole

thing. And once you take the whole

thing, you realize that like a lot of

the people who you may have been looking

up to either did not have a better life

than you did or it was just marginally

better in a way that was easy to

overlook. I had this conversation with a

girl in New York last week. It was a

shoot, a client, like a brand shoot, and

she sat me down to interview me for

TikTok. And she said, um, she goes,

"What age did you become a millionaire?"

And I said, "About 24, 25." And she

went, "Oh, I'm 24, 25 now, and I'm not a

millionaire." And I remember saying to

her, I was like, "Yeah, but would you

would you take my trade?"

>> And I explained to her, I was like, "So,

I was lonely between the age of 18 and

roughly 20. I was working in call

centers. My parents wouldn't speak to

me. So I had no contact with my family

really um for through that period and

then I started shoplifting at about 18

19 to feed myself and my brother had

given me this big um sort of industrial

packet of oats and what I had to do is

it's like powder I mix the powder with

water and there's there's there's a

photo online I think from my previous

TED talk my first one where I was just

drinking this this powdered water. So I

said to her, I said, and I was a

millionaire at 24, lonely, not speaking

to my family, drinking powder do

shoplifting, working night shifts in

multiple call centers. Would you take

the trade? And she went, "No."

>> She said, "Absolutely not." She wouldn't

take the trade. And I said, "So you

can't you can't pick it apart because I

if you want to my outcome, you have to

take the path that I took if you want my

specific outcome." And people don't

think about that. Like one of the things

this podcast has actually taught me is

to think through the framework of

trade-offs. Yeah.

>> So, think about everything as a

trade-off. Think of a Zmpeek as a

trade-off. There's a trade you're making

somewhere. And even, you know, when you

aspire, you admire people. If you admire

what we've done here, for example, think

about the trade-off. Like, even with

this team, the team have been working

here every single day, including the

weekends from morning till night for the

last 14 days here in New York. Every

single day. >> Right.

>> Right.

>> Do you want to do you want to do you

want a podcast? Like,

>> do you want the trade? And if you do,

fine. But just be informed about, as you

say, both sides of the trade.

>> Another Jimmy Carr quote that I love,

he's a profound individual. Not only is

he hilarious, he's very smart. The quote

is, "Everyone is jealous of what you've

got. Nobody's jealous of how you got it."

it." >> Yeah.

>> Yeah.

>> And I think it's just so easy to

overlook. One of the things I write in

the book is what's called the reverse

obituary, which is it's a very good

helpful exercise to write down. It's

kind of morbid, but what do you want

your obituary to say? kind of a weird

thing, but for me, everyone's different,

but for me, I would want it to say

Morgan was a good father, a good

husband, a good friend, helped his

community, was a good worker. That's

what I would want it to say. Never in a

million years in that obituary would I

want it to say what my income was, how

big my house was, how many times I went

on vacation, how many horsepower my car

had. Like, it's ridiculous to think that

that's what it would be. I would want

it. You instantly drift towards the

things that you know you're actually you

actually want in life. And of course,

it's going to be different for everyone,

but I I I found it a helpful thing

because you realize that it would be

completely absurd to put the things that

I might be chasing in my life in my

obituary. And so if in any given day, in

any given year, you're like, I got to

earn a higher income and I want to buy a

bigger house and I got to need a new car

and all you see, they came out with this

watch. But at the end of your life, you

know, that's not going to matter. What's

going to matter is were you a good

spouse, a good parent, a good worker,

were you honest? Were you a good friend?

Were you funny? That's you know that's

what's going to matter because that's

what you want in your obituary.

>> I think part of the reason people spend

in the way that they do as well is

linked to that which is sometimes that

behavior which is also linked to the

point about trauma at the start might

result in a savings addiction. I often

wonder this cuz you know when I was

younger I had this crazy spending

problem. And I've also seen people who

don't seem to spend anything and they're

just like hoarding capital. You talk

about this a bit in the book. Like what

>> is that equally bad behavior?

>> Yeah, I think it's equally bad because

both of them are the exact same thing

which is money's controlling you. Money

should be a tool that you use to become

a better version of yourself to become a

happier, more content version of

yourself. But when it's controlling your

personality, it's it's it's no different

than like any any other addiction where

you don't it's forcing you to do things

that you otherwise don't want to do. And

that can manifest on either end of the

side. Either people can't stop spending

or they cannot spend enough. A lot of

financial adviserss will tell you one of

the biggest problems that they have are

clients who have saved enough money for

retirement. Good job. You saved for 40

years. You maxed out your 401k. did

everything you were supposed to and now

you're 70 years old and you have enough

money to travel and play golf and you

won't you won't do it. And I think it's

because they become so accustomed to the

identity of I'm a saver. Every month I

save and every month my net worth goes

up and they cannot bring themselves into

switching gears and going in the other

direction. And for a lot of those

people, the money is in full control

over their identity. It's telling them

how to live, what to like, what to

aspire to, what to enjoy. the money is

totally in control of their personality

and and it's it's just as dangerous and

just as just as detrimental as you when

you were a teenager of I can't stop

spending. It's and both of those are in

are they the money is like playing the

marionette doll of your life. It's

telling you exactly what to do and when

to do it.

>> If I wanted to make a framework to know

how to spend my money, where do I start?

Do I have to get clear on something? Do

I, you know, and I guess the other

question which is somewhat linked to

this is this overarching debate around

can money make you happy,

>> right? But I'm trying to figure out like

where do I start because I I want to one

of the things I want to get out of today

is I want to have a a clearer framework

for how to spend my money.

>> Well, those two points that you just

brought up, I think are very related.

The first on the point of can money make

you happier? The answer is yes, but

there's a there's a there's an asterisk

next to it that we need to get to. For

years, there was a big academic debate

of does more money make you happy? A lot

of some of the studies showed yes,

clearly it does. Others show studies

showed no, it really doesn't. and the

academics, the economists were like

battling for decades. It's kind of been

cleared up in the last just the last

couple of years, this last couple of

decades with some nuance, which is this.

If you are already an unhappy person, if

you're already anxious, if you're

already depressed, by and large, having

more money will not help you at least

that much. It might help you a little

bit around the margins. If you're if you

start as an unhappy, depressed, anxious

person. If you are already a happy,

content, joyful, laughing person, having

more money will give you a better life.

So in either direction, it's just

leveraging who you already were. It's

not going to change you that much. It's

just going to leverage who you already

were. Very similar to like they say this

about power. Like once you gain power in

politics or something, it just leverages

the personality that you already had.

>> Money is very much like that. And so

it's it's not a a a panacea in the sense

of like oh like if if you're miserable

like if you had more money it's going to

clear up your problems. It can make some

of your problems a little bit easier to

deal with. But I mean think about it in

these stark terms. Let's say you are

overweight and unhappy. You hate your

job and you're recently divorced and

your kids won't talk to you but you live

in a mansion that has a Ferrari in the

driveway and you got all kinds of fancy

stuff. Is is is that a good life? If all

if everything else in your life sucked

and you woke up every morning going,

"Ah, I got to go to work today. I hate

my job. I can't stand my job. I'm I'm

lonely. I'm miserable. I'm overweight. I

can't sleep. I'm addicted to alcohol."

Whatever it might be. Of course, it's a

terrible life. The house in the car

don't matter at all. But you can flip

that around and say like, let's say you

live in a very modest middle class house

and you drive a a 10-year-old Honda

Civic, but you love your job. You love

your co-workers. You have a great

relationship with your spouse. Your kids

admire you. You have your friends over

for a barbecue every Friday night.

Materially, it's very modest. You have

what you need. You're not impoverished.

You're not homeless. You have the food

that you want and the shelter that you

want. But you would be an absolute

maniac to choose the miserable person in

the mansion versus the content, happy

person in the middle house. If your goal

is to live a good life, it's psychotic

to pick one of one over the other. I

felt this quite starkly recently because

I flew to Cape Town on my own. Um I've

only ever been there with my girlfriend

and with other friends and the first

time I've only been there a few times.

I've got a house there and it's a very

big house and the first time I came with

was with my family. Second time it's

with my girlfriend and my friends. This

time I came on my own

>> and I felt this deep existential feeling

waking up walking through that house

alone thinking [ __ ] me.

It was so clear to me that the point of

such a such a thing is to fill it with

people and you say

>> that's what I I make this point in the

book of like the very simple question

will a big house make you happier?

>> I think it will make you depressed if

it's empty

>> because that's how I felt. I was like

I'd rather be in a studio apartment

alone than a big house on my own.

>> Right. I had a similar realization to

you a couple years ago when I took my my

my my family and I went to Maui for a

vacation and I love Maui. It's my

favorite place in the world. And now I

have kids. So I'm building sand castles

with my kids on the beach in Maui. And

that I remember thinking like this is

this is a 10 out of 10. This is like

this is peak life for me. Building sand

castles with my kids. Everyone's happy

in the sun.

>> But then I had this realization of like

if that's a 10.

>> Playing with Legos at home on the living

room floor with my kids is like a nine.

Like it's really close because

realization was what I enjoy is like

quality time with my kids. And I think a

lot of the reason that people like

vacate, like travel is not because they

like getting on an airplane and flying

around the world and being jet-lagged

and cramped into a small hotel. What

they like is uninterrupted time away

from work, away from all the other

stresses of everyday life. That's what

they actually enjoy. That's what they

like, travel. It's not necessarily the

location. It's like what the location is

doing for you. So the question of will a

big house make you happier? It will to

the extent that it makes it easier to

have your friends and family over

>> because your friends and family are the

ones who are actually making you happy.

>> And so the answer can be can will a will

a nice house make you happy? The answer

can be yes if you're using it for the

right reasons. There was this article in

the New York Times, this is probably 10

or 15 years ago and uh the article said

two things happened to Julia Roberts

this week. One, she won the Academy

Award and two she found out her husband

was cheating on her. And so the column

said, "Pop quiz, did Julia Roberts have

a good week?" And it's like, you'd be a

fool to say yes. It was probably the

worst week of her life, I imagine. >> Yeah.

>> Yeah.

>> Um, but what we see from the outside was

doled up in a beautiful dress, accepting

the highest honor of her career and

saying like, "Wow, that must be

amazing." But it gets back to once you

see the full picture, you're like, "Nah,

it's not as easy as it seems."

>> You say on page 23 of your book, a quote

that I loved, "Show off the inside of

your house, not the outside." >> Right.

>> Right.

because the inside of your house are

what your friends and your family are seeing.

seeing.

>> Is there like a a hack here? Like is

there, you know, because you have all

these like internet communities that

come up with these like hacks, these

other ways to live. They they they step

outside of the matrix and they form

their own little their own little cult

that are like doing it differently and

not not abiding by the rules of the the

quote unquote matrix. I very much feel

like most of us are trapped in the

matrix. We're trapped in this like

status game competing against each

other, not not searching for happiness.

like what is the the hack here? How do I

get out the matrix and what does that

look like?

>> I think if there is a formula that I I

lay out in the book and I I make the

point that like there there's no formula

for how to spend money. But if I did try

to make a formula for a pretty good life

and this extends way outside of money.

The formula for a pretty good life is

independence plus purpose. If you want

to say like how how can I be a happy

person? You need to be independent. You

need to be able to do what you want to

do when you want to do it with whom you

want to do it with. And you need some

kind of purpose that is higher than

yourself. And that could be a million

different things. It could be friends,

it could be family, it could be career,

it could be religion, whatever it might

be. I think it is very difficult to

imagine anyone having a good life

without those two things. If your entire

life and your schedule is dictated by

somebody else of you have to go to this

job that you don't like, you have to

have a long commute that you don't like,

you have to do this when you don't want

to do it, it's it's hard to be happy.

And if you don't have any kind of

purpose that you're doing it for, it's

difficult to be happy. And so the idea

that to me, the best thing to spend

money on is independence. And I view it

as purchasing. I I don't view it as

saving money. I view it as purchasing

independence. That's how I I view I view

like I'm buying independence when I

save. And so to me, the biggest thing

that I spend my money on, and this

sounds weird, but I is saving. And I

view that as buying independence. I view

that as every dollar that I save is a

little bit more independent than I was

before. It's a little bit of my future

that I now own and control. And if if

you're listening to this and you're

like, "Look, I'm not financially

independent. I have no I have no

possibility of being financially

independent." Independence exists on a

spectrum. And literally every dollar

that you save is a little bit more

independent than you were before. If you

have a $100 in the bank in savings, that

can make it so that if you were to lose

your job, you have a little bit more

flexibility for rent or groceries or

whatever it might be that you didn't

before. $1,000, $10,000, any amount that

you have is a little bit more

independent than you were before. And so

when you view

one of the cores of living a good life

as independence and any amount of saving

money will buy you independence, I think

that's a powerful observation for

people. And then the purpose part is

going to be different for everyone. For

me right now in my life, it's being a

good father. That's what I want my end

my identity to be. That's my overarching

goal in life is to be a good dad. I I

think the vast majority of parents will

tell you that there was no greater joy,

purpose than watching their kids thrive.

Can also bring a lot of sorrow and a lot

of sleepless nights and a lot of anxiety

and a lot of worry that comes along with

it. But nothing that I've experienced or

any of the other parents that I know

would would say that anything in their

life has come before that that it's been

a great thing. So we got on this point

because the formula is independence plus

purpose. For me the purpose is being a

parent. That's not going to be true for everyone.

everyone.

>> But you're trading independence for that.

that.

>> I'm trading it's internal independence

that I'm giving up. I want to sacrifice

for my kids. I want to like loyalty to

people who deserve your loyalty is a

wonderful thing. Loyalty to people who

don't deserve your loyalty sucks. And so

if you are working, if you're giving

your loyalty to a company that doesn't

respect you, that sucks. That's

terrible. Loyalty to people who deserve

it is a very fulfilling thing. So my

kids deserve my loyalty.

>> How did they earn that loyalty?

>> Just by being my kids. And there's some

days where I feel like they they don't

appreciate it, of course. But I I think

that tends to be true. People get into

problems when they are loyal to people

or organizations or political

affiliations who don't deserve the

loyalty. That's when it gets dangerous.

>> Do you think the promise of independence

and freedom has a secret hidden dark

trade-off that people don't talk about?

Because there's this culture right now

of like, you know, be your own boss and

stand on your own two feet. And when you

think about what makes humans happy, it

seems to be collective things. It seems

to be actually in your case, as you were

saying, dependence. Your kids depend on

you. In some ways, you depend on them.

All the things that seem to like having

my friends at my house made me happier

than being in the house alone,

>> right? But the nar the public narrative

is all about like optimizing for

freedom, whatever that means. And really

more so optimizing for independence, not

depending on someone else. But when you

look at the people that seem to be the

most unhappy, they seem to be the most independent,

independent,

>> right? because they're they if you

picture someone like living in a by

themselves in the middle of Montana with

no one around them or whatever it might

>> be no family, no pets, freelance work on

a laptop on their own in a in a glass

box in Dubai. Um no no big obligations,

not not in a church.

>> But back to the formula, independence

plus purpose. Most people have no purpose.

purpose.

>> Oh yes.

>> So I think it's I think yes, everyone is

going to be I'm I'm dependent on my

wife, my kids. you know, there is

dependency there, but I'm I'm choosing I

chose her as a spouse. I chose to have

kids and so I I still did it on my

terms. And so, you're never going to be

or I think you don't want to be a 100%

independent in the sense that you don't

rely on anyone and no one relies on you

because then you have no purpose.

>> It's choosing who you want. I think it's

I think you're not independent if you

have to be loyal to a job that you hate,

but you have to have it because it's the

only job you got and you and you have to

do it and you're you you have to pay

this exorbitant rent on an apartment

that you don't even enjoy that much.

Like those are dependence on things that

you don't want, but like I want to be

dependent on my family because that

gives me purpose.

>> It's like the independence to make the

choice, I guess.

>> To make the choice of who you're going

to be dependent on, right?

>> Got you. And on this earlier point, you

were talking about saving um and that

you your favorite form of spending is saving.

saving. >> Yeah.

>> Yeah.

>> Someone's listening now, how much money

do you think they should at a minimum

have saved?

>> If you try to get technical about it, I

would say what are the odds that at some

point in your life, you're going to lose

your job and not be able to find another

job for six months. The odds are not bad

that that will happen to you at some

point. Not very comfortable to think

about. Maybe it's already happened to

you already, but the odds that at some

point that will happen are pretty good.

And therefore, if you were to say like,

look, a good measure of

some level of higherend independence,

not a low level of independence, but

like a a medium level of independence is

six is is I could keep myself going for

six months. Now, for a lot of people,

that's a daunting task. And I it's okay.

You're probably not going to achieve

that when you're 18. Am I it's going to

take some savings to get there, but that

is a level at which you can exhale to a

degree that most people have never been

able to do before of like there's going

to be some bad stuff happening in your

life. It's going to be uncomfortable,

but it's going to be okay. And for for

for most people, for most of history, it

was there's bad things going to happen

to you and you're not going to be okay.

It's going to be very traumatic. And and

one of the important things there is

when you lose that job, the ability to

go find a good job, even a better job

where you want doing what you want with

the people who you like working with is

very important. If you don't have any

savings, you're going to have to by

default pick the very first job that you

can come across, even if it's a terrible

job in a location that you hate, doing

something you hate, working with people

you don't like. And so the flexibility

to give yourself time to find a job that

is a little bit easier and better for

you, that is the purpose of savings.

>> And that goes back to your point about

independence, which is you want to

building up those savings is building up

the independence or the freedom to make

a choice about who you work with, >> right?

>> right?

>> If the worst were to happen, you don't

have to necessarily go get a job at, you

know, some awful place,

>> some some terrible place. You talk about

jealousy in the book as well and um I

was reading some stats that quite funny

stats but they they say that essentially

that if you're if you win the lottery

the probability of your neighbor going

bankrupt increases.

>> It's an amazing statistic, right?

>> So what's what's happening there?

>> Well, you're looking at your neighbor

who won the lottery and your neighbors

probably bought a vacation house, bought

a new car, sending their kids to private

school, whatever it might be. and you

watching that are like, I need that for

myself. It's it's unfair that they have

it and I don't and I'm gonna go do any

reckless financial decision to get that.

So much of what we think is is normal.

Our definition of success is what other

people around us have. And so if you are

watching your neighbor live a better

life than you, then all a sudden your

definition of a good life is what

they're doing. And you will do some

reckless things to get it. I think

that's that's what happens. And so one

of the takeaways there is like be

careful who you socialize with because

you're going to anchor to them as a

baseline level of success and happiness.

Be very careful with what you do and who

you look up to and who you aspire to. I

grew up in Lake Tahoe, California, and

this was before tech money when it was

not a wealthy area. it is now because

all the tech money from San Francisco

came up. But Tahoe in the 90s and early

2000s was was just a out in the woods

and you know you could buy a house for

nothing and most people in town didn't

have any money. And then I went to

college in Los Angeles where there is a

lot of wealth there are high

expectations and there are Lamborghinis

and Rolls-Royces and whatnot. And one of

my observations was people were happier

in Tahoe. And I think the reason why is

because the definition of success in

Tahoe back then was a two-bedroom house

and a pickup truck.

>> That was success. In Los Angeles, the

definition of success was a mansion and

a and a Bentley.

>> And so it was just it was easier for

people in Tahoe to be like, I'm good. I

I check the boxes. Like look, I'm

successful. Look at look at my tiny

little house and my beat up pickup

truck. That's success, right? And so

that was like be careful who you

socialize with because you're going to

anchor to their level of success. I have

a some graphs in front of you there. Um

I think one of them is the spectrum of

financial independence. >> Yeah.

>> Yeah.

>> Could you explain to me what that is and

and how how that's useful to understand

and why that's useful to understand?

>> I think it's I had this friend uh 10 or

10 or 20 years ago and he said, "I don't

save any money because I don't see the

purpose. All I'd be able to save is a

hundred bucks a month and what's that

going to do for me?" And since I don't

think it's going to do anything for me,

I I might as well just go spend it. And

I remember thinking, no, no, that's like

$100 in savings or if you do it for a

year, $1,200 in savings is $1,200 more

independence than you had before. And

again, not if, but when you lose your

job or your car breaks down, you're

going to realize how unbelievably

valuable that money is. And it's not

savings, it's independence that it's

giving you. So the idea that

independence is on a spectrum. It is not

you either don't have to work or you

have to work. It's not that stark, but

most people think of it in those terms.

Why would I try to become independent if

I have no chance of not working?

>> And the simple way to view it is every

dollar that you save is a piece of your

future that you own, that you control,

that is yours. The flip side of that is

like every dollar of debt that you have

is a piece of your future that somebody

else controls. It's a it's a moment in

time in the future that is not yours. It

belongs to somebody else. And so I've

always viewed it on a spectrum. When I

was younger and much poorer, I was a big

saver. Even though like was I

independent? Like no. Of course I had to

work. I had to work to pay my rent and

pay my groceries. Of course. But I

viewed it as like every $20 that I

saved, every $50 that I saved put me in

a better position than I was before. And

looking back on it, I I don't think I

could have articulated that 20 years

ago, but it's what I felt. A lot of that

for me back then was coming from a place

of fear. I didn't have a lot of

self-confidence in myself, in my career.

So, I was like, I need to save to

prepare for when this all comes crashing

down. Mhm.

>> And even though it didn't come crashing

down, I'm so glad that I did it cuz I'

I've had a sense of financial security

and I've had a sense of independence

financially since I was in my early 20s.

Not because I had saved a ton, I hadn't,

but any amount that I saved, I I viewed

as like the cushion that that gave me a

much higher sense of confidence that if

or when things go wrong, I'm not going

to be flailing. I'm going to have some

cushion to fall back on. And what is

this this spectrum? Uh what are the

stages of this spectrum?

>> So let's start at the very bottom.

You're homeless. You're panhandling.

Reliant on the kindness of strangers. As

you go up from there, you can be

completely reliant on your boss in a job

that you don't like. Now that's that's

that's a that's another low level. As

you go up from there, you have look, I

am I'm relying on my job. I'm relying on

my on my paycheck, but I probably have

some opportunities. I could go work at

another job. I could I could choose to

work here. I could choose to work there.

And then you go up from there. It's

like, yo, I I like my job and I have

some savings. So, if I lost this job, I

can fall back onto it from there. You

can go up from there to have you can

live where you want. You can work where

you want. You can change fields. You can

you can go and you can do a completely

different job. You can take two months

off and travel if you wanted to. Like,

you're working your way up all the way

to the highest level of financial

independence, which is I don't need to

work anymore. I've saved enough and I

can I can I can wake up every morning

and do whatever I would like to do.

That's obviously an aspiration that for

most people will never be reached until

they're maybe in their, you know, 70s

and they're retiring and they have

social security and some other savings

from there. But for most people, like a

good level of independence as a good

goal is enough savings so that if you

lost your job, if your car broke down,

if you needed to replace the roof on

your house, you would be able to do it

without losing that much sleep. That is

a realistic level that I think almost

anyone can achieve. based on everything

you know about money if I want to get to

that highest level of complete financial

freedom, what what what's like the the

five things that I should be thinking

about at just a sort of a very simple

level. You know, cuz so many people

listening right now think, you know, my

goal in life isn't to become a

billionaire or a tens of millionaire. My

goal in life is just to get to that

point of freedom as soon as I can

>> where I can start calling the shots. And

there's there was someone who I was

speaking to the other day and said that

there's this internet movement of kids

who are trying to get what do they call

it it's like they're trying to get to

the point where they can retire early

fire something

>> financial independence retire early that >> y

>> y

>> like how do I get how do I get there

>> the first thing that I think that's most

important this is the first and the last

thing this is the most important part is

that all wealth your feeling of wealth

is what you have minus what you want and

it's so easy to ignore the latter

matter. I talk about in the book my my

late grandmother-in-law, my wife's

grandmother, passed away a couple years

ago. For 30 years, she lived off of

nothing but 17 or $1,800 a month in

social security. Not a lot of money. By

most accounts, very little money. But

she didn't want anything more. She did.

She if she made $1,700 a month, she did

not want $1,700 in one and $1. She was

perfectly happy. She she found all of

her happiness working in her garden,

going for walks, watching the birds,

watching the sunrise, watching the

sunset, talking to her friends, hanging

out with her family. But if you asked

her, you said, "You only make $700 a

month. You're broke. Doesn't that make

you unhappy?" She'd be like, "What?"

Like, "Do you think having more money

makes the sunset more beautiful? Do you

think having more money makes going for

a walk more pleasant?" And I'm not

saying you should live like you should

be content with that amount of money,

but the point is like she was content.

She was totally content. And it was her

choice. And I think she was happier

financially than some billionaires

because there's a lot of billionaires

who have a billion dollars but they want

two. They have two billion but they want

four. One of the things is that

happiness might be the wrong word here.

The word that people want is content.

When you sit here and daydream about

having the bigger mansion, what you're

actually doing is you're imagining

yourself in the mansion being content

with it. You imagine yourself sitting in

that house and saying, "I don't want

anything more than this." The feeling

that we are aspiring to is just being

content. Happiness is always like a 30-

secondond emotion. It's like laughter.

Like if I tell you a funny joke, you'll

laugh for 30 seconds and then and it's

over. Like very few times in life are

you happy for more than a couple minutes

at a time. But what you want that is

like a durable emotion is being content.

Just saying like I'm good. I'm good with

this. I don't want anything more.

>> I interviewed Dr. to Anna LMK and she's

like the the uh the scientist who's most

uh renowned for talking about and

writing about dopamine. >> Yeah.

>> Yeah.

>> And I was wondering how much do the

molecule dopamine dovetailes into this

because I think one of the things she

said to me was that dopamine is the

chemical for wanting. >> Yeah.

>> Yeah.

>> And people have I think mistaken it for

being the the pleasure

>> happiness. Yeah. Happiness.

>> It's it's more more. It's like you want

more. And she told me this crazy study

about this rat where they removed the

dopamine receptor from its brain so it

couldn't produce dopamine and then they

put food 2 in from its mouth and the rat

starved to death because it it it and in

that I've always thought about that is

like okay so that's what dopamine is.

It's the motivation to go get to go get

to want to pursue. What role is dopamine

playing here?

>> It's huge and that's actually a good

realization to be like a lot of this is

not something you can solve on a

spreadsheet. It's not something you can

solve with a formula. It's chemicals in

your brain. And obviously some people

are going to be more susceptible to that

than others. I think my grandmother-in-law

grandmother-in-law

just had for whatever it was was was

wired differently than most people. Part

of that was like she was a product of

the Great Depress. She grew up during

the Great Depression which probably like

lowered her expectations. She never had

social media and whatnot. But of course,

I think some people are wired

differently than others for a level of

contentment. But I think just there's a

big thing in psychiatry where diagnosing

a mental illness is sometimes more

important than the treatment. If you

just get a diagnosis of like, oh, you're

ADHD, whatever it is, just knowing just

like the the fact that you can stop

questioning, why am I having these

thoughts? You can you can understand why

you have those thoughts is more

important than the treatment sometimes.

And I think that's true here. If if you

it's easier said than done to completely

control your desires, but just knowing

why you're doing it and realizing that

it's probably not going to give you the

happiness that you want, that it's just

like any addiction that the more you

chase it, the further away it's going to get,

get,

>> can go a big ways. And so for me myself,

there's all the time there are moments

where I'm like, "Oh, I I should I I

should get that car. Maybe I should get

a bigger house." I have those feelings

daily. So the feelings don't go away.

But I think I'm better now than I've

been in the past at reminding myself of

like it's not going to make you happier.

You know that. You've tried this before.

You've tried it before and it didn't

make you happy. What is going to make

you happy is spending time with your

kids, having a good relationship with

your wife and your own physical health

and laughing with your friends and

having good times with people who you

enjoy. You know that's going to make you

happy and you know that's not. And I

have to remind myself because it's not

intuitive. And I have dopamine that

tells me you should want more and more

more and more. So, you never get over

it, but I think once you've diagnosed

the problem, it becomes easier at just

like spotting that emotion and realizing

that it's telling you a story that's

probably not true.

>> I wonder if you I could trade the

addiction cuz you, you know, you

referred to it there as being an

addiction. If it's a dopamine equation,

could I not shift my addiction to

something more productive? And would

that mean that my spending would get

better? So actually when I think about

me as 18 years old and having that

horrific spending problem, maybe I just

shifted the the thing that gave me

dopamine to like building businesses or

to podcasting or to writing books or to

being a great dad. I don't know. Do you know?

know?

>> I think it's probably true that

everybody without exception is addicted

to something and it's just harnessing

that that process for whatever it might

be. So some people are addicted to my

wife's addicted to gardening, let's say.

She she couldn't care less about about

investing or spending money on a nice

she could not care less about her car or

my car or your car. But if you have a

good gardener, if you you have a pretty

garden, she's she's all over this. So

everybody's got their thing and it's

just like can you harness that for productivity?

productivity?

>> I think a lot of like extremely

successful people are people who took

their their natural addiction and

harnessed it for productivity into their business.

business.

>> And that's that's why they're so

successful. this became obsessed with

one thing and it's it's a good question

of whether we can actually guide that

addiction or if it's just kind of

pre-wired in itself. I think it's true

for myself, someone who's written books

about money for 20 years, thought about

money for 20 years. My mom tells a story

that when I was three, I would sit there

and count pennies. I don't want to count

seashells. I don't want to count cards.

I don't want to count rocks. I want to

count money. And so I think I've always

had this disposition towards being

fascinated with money. >> Why?

>> Why?

>> I don't know. Because I did it when I

was three. I did it before I could even

think through it. But I think everyone

has their little thing. It's always been

fascinating to me. I don't think I'm

obsessed with money. I don't think it

controls my life. But I've had to go out

of my way to have a a healthier

relationship with it. But I think it's

definitely been true that the reason

that I've found myself in this career is

that it's always been my thing. And I

think everybody has that thing in their

life. You know, people talk about

addictive personalities and uh I was

reflecting one of my best friends who

was an alcoholic, had a problem with

gambling, then had a problem with

eating, then got obsessed with marathons

and he he traded each one of those

things for the next thing. So now he's

like obsessed with health and fitness.

And so I was when I was thinking about

people that are struggling with money

problems and even my own historical

strugg struggle with money, I I think I

probably just traded it for something.

And actually, I'm kind of happy about

that because I traded it for a better

addiction, one that was productive.

>> Your career?

>> My career and um

>> I guess doing this I'm pretty addicted

to doing this,

>> right? And but I think

>> makes me happier than the plasma screen.

>> It's exactly. Yeah.

>> I think what's true about a money

addiction is that it tends to be the

classic addiction of like you tell

yourself if only I get one more hit, so

to speak, then I'll be satiated. Then

then then that'll be enough. And the

answer is like no, it absolutely will

not. I'll tell you like a a personal

thing. I don't think this is true, but

it made me laugh. My wife and I bought a

new house about a year ago. It's an

awesome house. We love it. It's great.

And my brother-in-law came over the

other day and he goes, "You know, you're

only going to live here for 2 years

before you want to buy a bigger house."

And I had to laugh cuz I'm like, "God,

like I I I don't think that's true. I

think we're going to live here for a

while, but I know what you're saying is

right. That's the natural guide towards

it." that when we bought the house, it

was like, "Oh, this is going to be so

great. Can you imagine? We're going to

get to do this and get to do that and we

have these neighbors and whatnot and you

become accustomed to that very quickly

and then your gaze shifts a little bit

higher. You're like, "Yeah, but look at

that house over there. That one's nicer,

isn't it?" That's always the natural

thing. And that's dopamine at work. That

is dopamine purely at work. Because the

truth is our previous house was was

great. And our previous house used to be

our dream. And and dopamine exists when

there's a when there's a gap between

where you are and where you want to be

with something. And when that gap

closes, they often refer to that as the

arrival fallacy.

>> Yeah. Right.

>> Which is a really kind of what you're describing.

describing.

>> You tell yourself once I get there, then

I'll be then I'll be good. Then that's

enough. And it's a fallacy because you

know that's not true. As soon as you get

to that whatever that mountain top is,

there's another mountain above it. It

pushes you in a way that is not easy.

Like nobody should pretend that you can

just go do this today. But it pushes you

into appreciating what you have now and

finding your joy, finding your happiness

through other things that don't have the

arrival fallacy. Never have as I as a

parent have I said, "Oh, if only I had

one more kid." Then then then that would

be great. There's no there's really no

arrival fallacy for kids. You just kind

of be like this. Like I I I just

appreciate being around you. I just

appreciate all the and if if anything,

it's the opposite. It's you look back

and you're like, "Oh, I I I miss when

you were younger." It was like, "Oh, I

it's it's sad how fast you're growing

up." If if anything, rather than like

looking ahead and being like, "Oh, it's

going to be better then." You're looking

back and you're like, "Ah, I wish I had

appreciated that phase a little bit more."

more."

>> When you talked about um one of the ways

to get to early retirement and to live a

better life is to want what you have

um and basically want less things. I go

back and forward a lot with this idea

because there's like the monks who say

that like happiness is not wanting

something and then there's like the

reality of life where striving for

things seems to make me happy and

everybody describes the journey as being

the most enjoyable part.

>> That's your purpose.

>> Yeah. Yeah. So like what what how do how

do I make sense of this that like the

monks are telling me that not to want

anything cuz that's going to make me

frustrated and unsatisfied and then my

lived experience is striving for things

with a group of people makes me seems to

make me happy.

>> I think there's a there's a difference.

It's a subtle difference but between

pursuing something that you genuinely

enjoy doing which for you is this and

your your business and whatnot

>> versus being addicted to something that

chasing something that you don't have

yet. And so I imagine, you can correct

me if I'm wrong, but I imagine when

you're doing this, you don't tell

yourself, I need to work harder so that

one day the podcast can be up here.

>> I I imagine, tell me if I'm wrong, but I

imagine you come to work every day and

you're like, I I like doing this today.

I like today. I liked yesterday. I'm

going to like tomorrow. And so you're

not chasing a false goal. You just

actually enjoy doing it. Do

>> you know what? It's a weird thing

because it's it's uh I'm going to be

honest because it's the only useful

position to take. It's it's a weird

combination of both. So I say like it's

important for us to have some like goal

>> but also live in the in in the total

understanding that the goal doesn't

actually matter. Right.

>> And it's this weird dichotomy I live in

was like if we become the biggest

podcast in the world

>> like set that as a goal because it gives

us something to

>> chase. I get that

>> KPI and then like put time frames

against and get excited by and focus on

>> but then also living in the total

realization that it's not going to

matter at all. Nothing is going to

change in my life. Zilch. What am I

going to get? A better black shirt. It's

like you know you know what I mean?

>> But here's the truth. The reason that we

live in a world with a ton of technology

and a ton of great businesses and great

medicine, whatnot, is because virtually

everybody for all of human history has

woken up every morning and said, "It's

not enough. I need more." That's the

fuel of progress. And I don't want to

live in a world where everyone wakes up

and says, "I have all I need." Because

then progress would stop that day. We

probably start declining that day. And

so there is a paradox here of like as a

whole society

>> I'm grateful and you should be grateful

that people wake up unfulfilled

>> because we live in a way better world

today than existed 100 or 200 years ago

because of that.

>> And the richest people in the world who

I think are by and large tortured psychologically

psychologically

have created amazing technology that you

and I benefit from. And the reason we're

doing this podcast is because people

before us who were way wealthier than

you and I woke up in the morning and

said this is not enough. Bill Gates,

Jeff Bezos, all those people, Elon Musk,

Mark Zuckerberg, they woke up and said I

don't care if I have a hundred billion

dollars. It's not enough. I need I need

to create better technology and that's

great. We benefit from that. And so

there is a paradox here that what is all

and that will never change. That will

never change. So there's a paradox that

like the more the better society

becomes. I think like it's always going

to be the case that as a whole society

we're going to have a level of angst and

anxiety and not be satisfied and say

it's not enough. At the individual level

though I think you can recognize that

game and contextualize it with your own

life and say like look

I want more money. I I want to sell more

books and have a better career. I want

to save more money. I also have to go so

far out of my way to put it into context

and say none of it's going to matter

unless I have a higher purpose beyond

that money. So I think you can aspire

for more and still go out of your way to

realize what the expectations game is.

Even if you can't perfectly control it,

it's similar to like I want to eat a

good diet. Of course I want to eat

healthy food. I'm not going to pretend

for a second that I don't want Oreos and

ice cream because they're great and

they're always going to taste great. And

so I'm never going to get to a point

where I say, "I don't want a nicer

house." I'm I'm a human and and so are

you and so is everyone else. You're

always going to have those feelings. But

you can recognize the game. You can

recognize the voice that's talking to

you and realize when that voice lies to

you and when it's telling you a story

that is either false or just a little

bit incomplete. I think if you had to

like say who is the happiest person in

the world on average, not like naming a

person, but if you had to describe the

life of like who's the happiest person

out there, my guess is it's probably

something close to a a middle-ass family

that lives in a three-bedroom house and

has a a 5-year-old car, but they have an

amazing marriage, tons of friends,

they're in good health, but they are by

any other statistic ordinary. and at the

end of their life more than the people

who are very very successful that

ordinary family is going to look back

when they're on their deathbed when

they're 95 years old and be like that

was good

>> that was a good time

>> do you think um this is a very strange

question to ask but do you think I could

make myself like that >> no

>> no

here's the truth I think on the nature

nurture spectrum

most of what we believe and the feelings

that we have is forged at conception and

it's just we're just wired that Okay.

And there's not much we can do about it.

Some people have different aspirations.

Elon Musk was born wired very

differently than you and I. And there's

nothing we can do about that. So, we are

who we are, but I think we can put those

feelings into a better context. Even if

we can't control having those feelings,

we can choose, we can put tell ourselves

a more complete story about why we're

having those feelings and what those

aspirations will actually do to our

happiness. So on this point of how to

retire early, the first one was about

managing what you want. Is there

anything else there that if if I'm

trying to increase the probability that

I get to retire early, um I should know

in terms of tactics and strategies?

>> Well, one of the things, this is a

little bit different than than the

question that you asked, but one of the

things that's important is that a lot of

the people who do retire early, who they

tell themselves, I'm going to save so

much money and I'm going to retire when

I'm 32 and then life's going to be

great. What actually happens is they

retire at 32 and six months later

they're bored out of their mind and they

realize that like what actually makes

you happy is purpose and for a lot of

people their purpose can be their career

or they realize they had this idea that

when they retired it was just going to

be a great life but the truth is all of

their friends are working and don't have

time to go play golf with them on

Tuesday afternoon and so a lot of people

who retire early end up going back. They

realized it was not what it was meant

what it was made out to be because they

had if the the formula is independence

plus purpose. They gained independence

but they kind of lost their purpose and

then the for and so it was incomplete.

They didn't get what they wanted.

>> What about passive income? People talk a

lot about passive income. I had a friend

DM me the other day and say Steve I've

got some debts etc. But if I could just

figure out a way to create some passive

income then that should solve the

problem. And this term passive income

has become like

>> completely overused because for example

a lot of people when they talk about

passive income they're like oh I'm going

to own real estate. I'm going to have

some rentals and that's passive income.

If you think owning a rental property is

passive income you've never owned a

rental property because there's nothing

passive about it. It is a constant chain

of broken toilets and leaky roofs and

tenants who don't pay you on time and

there's nothing passive. That's a

full-time job doing that. And so I heard

someone say this recently that there's

two ways to get wealthier. You can

sacrifice more or you can want less and

that's it. And gain passive income is

not part of that equation because

>> what's the first one? Sacrifice more.

>> Sacrifice more.

>> What does that mean?

>> Work harder. Work work in a job that is

that has a lot of downsides that might

stress you out and requires you to wake

up early and go to work and do some

things that you don't want to do and

spend time away from your kids in a way

that you don't want to do. Sacrifice

more or want less. Those are your two

choices. And I think that's important in

the passive income debate because I I I

don't think there's but there by and

large is not a thing of passive income.

Even if you're just like, you know, you

put your money in a in a savings account

that pays 3% interest. Well, you had to

sacrifice to earn that money

>> and to save that money and to delay the

gratification of that money. I I I

really think it's an ironclad formula.

Sacrifice more or want less. Those are

your two options.

>> It's not nice. True.

>> People want, you know, tell me which

crypto to >> right

>> right

>> to invest in to get that.

>> Of course, everyone's always going to

want the easy answer. Just like for health,

health,

>> the answer is eat a better diet and

exercise. Nobody wants that. They just

say, "Get what's the what's what's the

secret potion? What's the secret

formula?" And maybe now we have Ozic. So

maybe now we have it's closer to a to a

secret formula. But the truth is, what's

the secret to better health? Sacrifice

more because working out and lifting

weights and running is a sacrifice. It's

not fun. It hurts. that's why it's good.

Or want less, be happier with your

imperfect body. I mean, I think that's a

great analogy between health and and wealth.

wealth.

>> Often the difference between a company

succeeding or failing isn't down to its

product or strategy. It's down to the

people on the inside. After all, the

definition of the word company is group

of people. And some of the best

companies in the world have been largely

built by A players. Because I'll let you

in on a little secret. When you hire an

A player, they go on to hire more A

players. and it perpetuates. The

challenge is finding those first few A

players. I found the majority of mine on

LinkedIn who are a sponsor of this show.

LinkedIn provides talent I could not

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necessary skills and culture fit that

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apply. How much do I need to understand

what's going on in the wider world and

the economy in order to understand my

own spending behaviors, what I should

spend on, how to get wealthy, how to

save? Is it important to have any

understanding around the macro? Because

most people that listen to this show

will probably hear these terms being

spouted out on by political commentators

like the Federal Reserve, interest rates,

rates,

>> tariffs, etc. And

should I understand any of this? Should

does any of it really impact me in a way

that matters to me and my family? I

don't think it's necessary. And you

could point to people I've written about

in my books who had no financial

education, no training, did not read the

Wall Street Journal, could not tell you

how the Federal Reserve works, but they

had control of their psychology, control

of their emotions, they they worked

hard, they saved their money, they

invested it, and that that's all you

need. They you you so the answer is you

don't need to know how this works. Just

in the same way that in order to be

healthy, you don't need a PhD in

biology. You don't need to understand

how cell division works in order to be

in good shape. And I think it's the same

for the economy. And it can actually backfire for a lot of people that once

backfire for a lot of people that once they start reading the Wall Street

they start reading the Wall Street Journal and learning a bit about

Journal and learning a bit about finance, it increases their confidence

finance, it increases their confidence more than their ability. So they're

more than their ability. So they're like, "Oh, like I read the Wall Street

like, "Oh, like I read the Wall Street Journal. I should go day trade crypto

Journal. I should go day trade crypto now

now >> because I read a thing that teaches me

>> because I read a thing that teaches me how the Federal Reserve works. So now

how the Federal Reserve works. So now like I'm going to It increases your

like I'm going to It increases your confidence more than your skill."

confidence more than your skill." >> That's so interesting. And so I I I

>> That's so interesting. And so I I I think it's important to be an informed

think it's important to be an informed citizen and the Federal Reserve impacts

citizen and the Federal Reserve impacts your life and tariffs impact your life.

your life and tariffs impact your life. So it's important to have some baseline

So it's important to have some baseline understanding, but I think that's more

understanding, but I think that's more about being an informed citizen and

about being an informed citizen and informed voter than it is having

informed voter than it is having financial skill.

financial skill. >> Of all of my best friends, there's like

>> Of all of my best friends, there's like five or six of them. The one that's most

five or six of them. The one that's most cri is the one that knows the least

cri is the one that knows the least about I think he's the most rich period

about I think he's the most rich period to be honest. He's the one that knows

to be honest. He's the one that knows the least about finance and he knows the

the least about finance and he knows the least about investing. He knows the

least about investing. He knows the least about crypto. Well, what's the

least about crypto. Well, what's the meme of like the the the tail spectrum

meme of like the the the tail spectrum of like the poor person drives a Toyota,

of like the poor person drives a Toyota, the middle person has a Porsche, a BMW,

the middle person has a Porsche, a BMW, a Mercedes, and the rich person goes

a Mercedes, and the rich person goes back to Toyota of like it's like whether

back to Toyota of like it's like whether you are very uneducated or extremely

you are very uneducated or extremely wise, you tend to end up,

wise, you tend to end up, >> oh, this

>> oh, this and so I think I think it it does tend

and so I think I think it it does tend to be the truth that the people who do

to be the truth that the people who do the best financially either have like no

the best financially either have like no financial education or extreme financial

financial education or extreme financial education. And it's a person in the

education. And it's a person in the middle that has their confidence is

middle that has their confidence is increased much faster than their ability

increased much faster than their ability and they're like, "Oh, no, no. I I read

and they're like, "Oh, no, no. I I read this thing on Reddit that taught me

this thing on Reddit that taught me about day trading. So now I'm going to

about day trading. So now I'm going to go bet my entire net worth on this

go bet my entire net worth on this company I've never heard of."

company I've never heard of." >> So funny. But so what is it that the the

>> So funny. But so what is it that the the person on the left and right side of the

person on the left and right side of the spectrum are both doing that is the same

spectrum are both doing that is the same here? So, for anyone that can't see,

here? So, for anyone that can't see, I'll put it up on the screen, but it

I'll put it up on the screen, but it just shows the bottom axis says net

just shows the bottom axis says net worth. And it basically says that people

worth. And it basically says that people with low net worth buy a Toyota, people

with low net worth buy a Toyota, people with like in the middle, that sort of

with like in the middle, that sort of middle percentage buy Lamborghinis and

middle percentage buy Lamborghinis and Porsches and Jaguars, and then people

Porsches and Jaguars, and then people with extremely high net worths buy

with extremely high net worths buy Toyotas. And obviously, it's a metaphor.

Toyotas. And obviously, it's a metaphor. >> It's not it's not it's not exactly

>> It's not it's not it's not exactly perfectly true, but I think people like

perfectly true, but I think people like a lot of comedy, you see it like it's

a lot of comedy, you see it like it's funny because people are like, "Yes,

funny because people are like, "Yes, that's true. That's how it works." I

that's true. That's how it works." I think a lot of it is like the richer you

think a lot of it is like the richer you become, you realize that the big house

become, you realize that the big house and the fancy car didn't do anything for

and the fancy car didn't do anything for you. It did. It didn't give you what you

you. It did. It didn't give you what you thought it was going to give you. And

thought it was going to give you. And then so you're like, look, I'm just

then so you're like, look, I'm just going to go back to utility. Like status

going to go back to utility. Like status didn't do it for me, so I'm going to go

didn't do it for me, so I'm going to go back to utility. It can also be the case

back to utility. It can also be the case that if you're successful and rich, you

that if you're successful and rich, you can gain your admiration and your

can gain your admiration and your attention through what the business that

attention through what the business that you built or the intelligence that you

you built or the intelligence that you have or the the friendship that you can

have or the the friendship that you can offer others and therefore your desire

offer others and therefore your desire to be like look at my car look how cool

to be like look at my car look how cool my car is just goes down from there. The

my car is just goes down from there. The way I also interpret it is that when

way I also interpret it is that when you're when you don't have much money or

you're when you don't have much money or when you don't have a huge financial

when you don't have a huge financial understanding like my friend, you end up

understanding like my friend, you end up playing the really boring money games.

playing the really boring money games. >> Yeah.

>> Yeah. >> And when you have a huge financial

>> And when you have a huge financial understanding, you probably also spend a

understanding, you probably also spend a lot of time playing the boring money

lot of time playing the boring money games. And by boring money games, I mean

games. And by boring money games, I mean index funds.

index funds. >> Yeah.

>> Yeah. >> And the S&P 500 versus like crypto.

>> And the S&P 500 versus like crypto. >> Yeah. I think you'll see that in

>> Yeah. I think you'll see that in investing that like the absolute lay

investing that like the absolute lay person will invest in index funds and

person will invest in index funds and the extremely experienced Wall Street

the extremely experienced Wall Street veteran will invest in index funds as

veteran will invest in index funds as well. And it's a person in the middle

well. And it's a person in the middle that just has like a little bit of

that just has like a little bit of intelligence, a little bit of

intelligence, a little bit of experience, a little bit of information

experience, a little bit of information that is trying as hard as they can to

that is trying as hard as they can to outperform the market. I kind of learned

outperform the market. I kind of learned that from reading your your book, The

that from reading your your book, The Psychology of Money, because I I think

Psychology of Money, because I I think like many people thought there was some

like many people thought there was some trick or hack that this book was going

trick or hack that this book was going to teach me to figure out how to trade

to teach me to figure out how to trade coins at the right time or to like do

coins at the right time or to like do forex trading or whatever. But

forex trading or whatever. But ultimately, the book, if there was one

ultimately, the book, if there was one overarching lesson it taught me was that

overarching lesson it taught me was that like patience and uh

like patience and uh more boring investing is is the way to

more boring investing is is the way to get to build my wealth over the long

get to build my wealth over the long term. and that like all other strategies

term. and that like all other strategies have

have hidden trade-offs which lead you to

hidden trade-offs which lead you to being broke.

being broke. >> Yeah, I think there's a truth too that

>> Yeah, I think there's a truth too that like there's a there's an optimal level

like there's a there's an optimal level of intelligence that you want for

of intelligence that you want for investing where you want to be smart

investing where you want to be smart enough to understand the basics but not

enough to understand the basics but not so smart that the basics bore you. And a

so smart that the basics bore you. And a lot of people get so smart that they're

lot of people get so smart that they're like look index funds compound interest

like look index funds compound interest like I'm just putting like it's too

like I'm just putting like it's too boring. like I I need something really

boring. like I I need something really complex to satisfy the intelligence that

complex to satisfy the intelligence that I have. And I I there's a sweet spot

I have. And I I there's a sweet spot where like for me I'm just like, "Oh,

where like for me I'm just like, "Oh, index funds and compound interest." Like

index funds and compound interest." Like that's that's kind of as high as my

that's that's kind of as high as my intelligence goes here.

intelligence goes here. >> But I think the truth is that that is

>> But I think the truth is that that is the best position to be in. Smart enough

the best position to be in. Smart enough to understand the basics, but not so

to understand the basics, but not so smart that they become boring to you.

smart that they become boring to you. Because once they're boring to you,

Because once they're boring to you, you're just like, "Ah, sweep those away.

you're just like, "Ah, sweep those away. Let's try to

Let's try to >> pull some more levers here."

>> pull some more levers here." >> What is going on in the world at the

>> What is going on in the world at the moment, Morgan? There's um it feels like

moment, Morgan? There's um it feels like people are more divided than ever before

people are more divided than ever before and I feel like a lot of these subjects

and I feel like a lot of these subjects we talk about are somewhat

we talk about are somewhat interconnected. It feels like there's a

interconnected. It feels like there's a rise in inequality. You probably know

rise in inequality. You probably know the numbers better than I do. Um I mean

the numbers better than I do. Um I mean there's a graph in front of you there

there's a graph in front of you there which shows

which shows >> I think it's is it wage growth?

>> I think it's is it wage growth? >> Yes, monthly wage growth.

>> Yes, monthly wage growth. >> Monthly wage from about 25 years

>> Monthly wage from about 25 years >> and it appears to be going down.

>> and it appears to be going down. >> Well, but this is growth. So in any

>> Well, but this is growth. So in any given year, even if the growth is 2%,

given year, even if the growth is 2%, that's 2% higher than the previous year.

that's 2% higher than the previous year. So this is not wages over time. Now, it

So this is not wages over time. Now, it is true that if you look over a 25-year

is true that if you look over a 25-year period and you took the average American

period and you took the average American family, not everybody, but the median,

family, not everybody, but the median, >> that their wages adjusted for inflation

>> that their wages adjusted for inflation have gone up. Not not up as much as

have gone up. Not not up as much as people would want over 25 years, but

people would want over 25 years, but that that they are better off than they

that that they are better off than they were 25 years ago. What is also true is

were 25 years ago. What is also true is that the average median family would

that the average median family would probably disagree with that statement

probably disagree with that statement even if it is true statistically for

even if it is true statistically for several reasons. One of which is their

several reasons. One of which is their expectations have gone up over the last

expectations have gone up over the last 25 years. The other is even if you're

25 years. The other is even if you're looking at average wages

looking at average wages average and when we talk about these

average and when we talk about these statistics does not refer to any

statistics does not refer to any specific family. This is just a

specific family. This is just a statistical number. Everyone spends

statistical number. Everyone spends their money differently. So, if I told

their money differently. So, if I told you, hey, average family, you're richer

you, hey, average family, you're richer than you were in the year 2000. And

than you were in the year 2000. And they're like, yeah, but I'm trying to

they're like, yeah, but I'm trying to put my kids through college and have you

put my kids through college and have you seen the price of college? And like,

seen the price of college? And like, yeah, that might be true because the

yeah, that might be true because the price of TVs has gone down, but have you

price of TVs has gone down, but have you seen the price of rent and housing?

seen the price of rent and housing? Like, at the individual level, these

Like, at the individual level, these statistics don't really mean that much

statistics don't really mean that much and never have. I think a lot of

and never have. I think a lot of economists get into a problem with that

economists get into a problem with that when they're like, well, statistically

when they're like, well, statistically X, Y, and Z has happened. But ignoring

X, Y, and Z has happened. But ignoring the psychology and the individuality of

the psychology and the individuality of like what's happening actually on the

like what's happening actually on the ground in people's heads and how they

ground in people's heads and how they spend their money, there's a there's

spend their money, there's a there's just endless amount of nuance in here.

just endless amount of nuance in here. And so I think it's it's always been

And so I think it's it's always been true that we live in a world where over

true that we live in a world where over long periods of time there's good

long periods of time there's good economic growth. We become wealthier. We

economic growth. We become wealthier. We be we have bigger better things. We have

be we have bigger better things. We have more income. We have better medicine.

more income. We have better medicine. It's equally true too that like there is

It's equally true too that like there is always something legitimate to complain

always something legitimate to complain about. And it's legitimate to complain

about. And it's legitimate to complain about. It's not just like, "Oh, you

about. It's not just like, "Oh, you should be more grateful." It's a real

should be more grateful." It's a real thing. And so when I look at a graph

thing. And so when I look at a graph like this, actually, what like if I was

like this, actually, what like if I was thinking just like with my math head,

thinking just like with my math head, I'd be like, "Oh, there's been quite a

I'd be like, "Oh, there's been quite a bit of growth over the last 25 years."

bit of growth over the last 25 years." Like the growth has been gone up and

Like the growth has been gone up and down, but it's growth. You know, never

down, but it's growth. You know, never in this chart is growth below zero.

in this chart is growth below zero. >> I guess the question there is, are rich

>> I guess the question there is, are rich people getting richer and are the poor

people getting richer and are the poor getting poorer?

getting poorer? >> It depends. I mean it's it's at the

>> It depends. I mean it's it's at the indiv are rich are the rich getting

indiv are rich are the rich getting richer yes.

richer yes. >> Are the poor getting poorer?

>> Are the poor getting poorer? >> Statistically no.

>> Statistically no. >> Even adjusted for inflation.

>> Even adjusted for inflation. >> I mean it it depends what period we're

>> I mean it it depends what period we're talking about here. There was about a 20

talking about here. There was about a 20 or 30-year period where the answer was

or 30-year period where the answer was unequivocally yes.

unequivocally yes. >> There was an interesting trend over the

>> There was an interesting trend over the last 10 years where

last 10 years where >> in percentage terms the the group of of

>> in percentage terms the the group of of wage earners who had the highest

wage earners who had the highest percentage growth were actually the low

percentage growth were actually the low wage. That was true for two or three

wage. That was true for two or three years after COVID where if you were a

years after COVID where if you were a low if you were a minimum wage worker

low if you were a minimum wage worker those were in percentage terms great

those were in percentage terms great years for you for getting wages. It's

years for you for getting wages. It's tapered off. So I the answer to your

tapered off. So I the answer to your question is the rich are getting richer.

question is the rich are getting richer. The poor I think are treading water by

The poor I think are treading water by and large. There's there's always people

and large. There's there's always people who are doing differently than that. But

who are doing differently than that. But when one group of society is getting

when one group of society is getting richer treading water feels like you're

richer treading water feels like you're falling. and the the specifics of how

falling. and the the specifics of how people spend their money. So even if on

people spend their money. So even if on average adjusted for inflation their

average adjusted for inflation their wages are flat, but if your rent

wages are flat, but if your rent skyrocketed or you're trying to send

skyrocketed or you're trying to send your kids through college or you have a

your kids through college or you have a long commute and you got to put gas in

long commute and you got to put gas in your tank, at the individual level,

your tank, at the individual level, things can feel very very different from

things can feel very very different from what the statistics show.

what the statistics show. >> And what role do you think this sort of

>> And what role do you think this sort of wealth inequality that is widening

wealth inequality that is widening between the very very top and everybody

between the very very top and everybody else is playing in everything that we're

else is playing in everything that we're seeing play out at the moment? Because

seeing play out at the moment? Because in the UK it's almost like there's we're

in the UK it's almost like there's we're on like the verge of riots it seems. And

on like the verge of riots it seems. And I think last last month there was

I think last last month there was millions of people in London protesting

millions of people in London protesting against immigrants coming over on boats

against immigrants coming over on boats and society becoming more multicultural.

and society becoming more multicultural. I'm so fascinated by the subject because

I'm so fascinated by the subject because you know earlier on we said that unless

you know earlier on we said that unless you have immigration in the western

you have immigration in the western world you have population decline and if

world you have population decline and if you have

you have >> and population decline sucks

>> and population decline sucks >> because you have a hit on GDP. biggest

>> because you have a hit on GDP. biggest problem right now throughout a lot of

problem right now throughout a lot of the world, at least one of the biggest

the world, at least one of the biggest perceived problems is immigration.

perceived problems is immigration. >> And the same is playing out in the

>> And the same is playing out in the United States. If I go on X, although I

United States. If I go on X, although I know I know what X is, um it's people,

know I know what X is, um it's people, maybe it's just my algorithm, but it's

maybe it's just my algorithm, but it's people attacking immigrants and

people attacking immigrants and immigration and people that are brown

immigration and people that are brown and black and whatever else it might be.

and black and whatever else it might be. I'm wondering how all of this is

I'm wondering how all of this is intertwined and

intertwined and >> and if it if it is connected at all

>> and if it if it is connected at all >> in your view. I think as a amateur

>> in your view. I think as a amateur student of history across cultures all

student of history across cultures all over the place all through history what

over the place all through history what you want to avoid more than anything in

you want to avoid more than anything in society is when probably a third of the

society is when probably a third of the population wakes up every morning and

population wakes up every morning and says this isn't working. That's the

says this isn't working. That's the point at which it's going to collapse

point at which it's going to collapse from there is when enough people wake up

from there is when enough people wake up in the morning and just have this

in the morning and just have this feeling of like whatever this is it's

feeling of like whatever this is it's not working out for me. You want to

not working out for me. You want to avoid that part. And so like look I'm a

avoid that part. And so like look I'm a I tend to be a a free markets guy. I'm a

I tend to be a a free markets guy. I'm a capitalist. I think people should be

capitalist. I think people should be able to become very wealthy, etc., etc.

able to become very wealthy, etc., etc. You also don't want to get to a point

You also don't want to get to a point where people become so wealthy that a

where people become so wealthy that a big chunk of society just wakes up every

big chunk of society just wakes up every morning and says, "Fuck this. This is

morning and says, "Fuck this. This is not this is not going to work out for

not this is not going to work out for me." And I think we've got we've we're

me." And I think we've got we've we're either there or precariously close to

either there or precariously close to there in a lot of areas in the world.

there in a lot of areas in the world. Social media, that's always been the

Social media, that's always been the case. And social media makes it a

case. And social media makes it a hundred times worse than it's ever been.

hundred times worse than it's ever been. >> Mhm. For example, you and I are

>> Mhm. For example, you and I are recording this a day after Charlie Kirk

recording this a day after Charlie Kirk was assassinated yesterday.

was assassinated yesterday. And there were who knows what number

And there were who knows what number percentage it was. But and I think it

percentage it was. But and I think it was not hard on social media to find

was not hard on social media to find people who were celebrating it

people who were celebrating it yesterday. Now when Martin Luther King

yesterday. Now when Martin Luther King was assassinated, did those people exist

was assassinated, did those people exist too who celebrated assassination? Of

too who celebrated assassination? Of course. But because of social media, by

course. But because of social media, by and large, you did not hear from them

and large, you did not hear from them unless you were part of that group.

unless you were part of that group. Whereas today, virtually everybody

Whereas today, virtually everybody yesterday saw people celebrating Charlie

yesterday saw people celebrating Charlie Kirk's assassination. And so even if

Kirk's assassination. And so even if those feelings existed in the past,

those feelings existed in the past, they're much more apparent today. You

they're much more apparent today. You see them today in a way that that you

see them today in a way that that you did not before. So because of that, it's

did not before. So because of that, it's easy to say we're more divided today.

easy to say we're more divided today. We're more extreme today. We're more

We're more extreme today. We're more pessimistic than they today. I think the

pessimistic than they today. I think the nuance is that's not actually true.

nuance is that's not actually true. You're just more aware of it. That those

You're just more aware of it. That those feelings always existed. They existed in

feelings always existed. They existed in the 1990s. They existed in the 1950s. It

the 1990s. They existed in the 1950s. It was just much easier to contain those

was just much easier to contain those and for the average citizen who got

and for the average citizen who got their information from one newspaper,

their information from one newspaper, one evening news program to feel like

one evening news program to feel like things were much more stable and in

things were much more stable and in control and that people were much more

control and that people were much more uniform in their opinions than they

uniform in their opinions than they actually were. Before we start

actually were. Before we start recording, we were talking about the

recording, we were talking about the Charlie Cook shooting and how

Charlie Cook shooting and how social media's ability to dehumanize

social media's ability to dehumanize other people at a probably a faster rate

other people at a probably a faster rate than history would have done it is

than history would have done it is pretty remarkable. And you see a lot of

pretty remarkable. And you see a lot of that. You see a lot of it taking place

that. You see a lot of it taking place on both sides. I think both sides

on both sides. I think both sides describe each other as being like

describe each other as being like animals and inhumane. in one side's

animals and inhumane. in one side's calling the other side Nazis and then

calling the other side Nazis and then the other side is calling the other side

the other side is calling the other side referring to them in in animal terms

referring to them in in animal terms because of maybe the color of their skin

because of maybe the color of their skin or their behavior. We saw a lot of that

or their behavior. We saw a lot of that when the that heinous individual killed

when the that heinous individual killed the young lady on the on the the train

the young lady on the on the the train in in America

in in America >> and the way look this person is the

>> and the way look this person is the [ __ ] this worst thing on planet

[ __ ] this worst thing on planet earth. Um but the language was very

earth. Um but the language was very it was putting that person in a group of

it was putting that person in a group of other people.

other people. >> Yes.

>> Yes. >> And then making the whole group a pack

>> And then making the whole group a pack of animals.

of animals. >> Right. Because in that situation too, we

>> Right. Because in that situation too, we talked about this earlier. I I don't

talked about this earlier. I I don't know that individual's name doesn't

know that individual's name doesn't matter, but no one refers to him by his

matter, but no one refers to him by his name. It's them. It's they. And that

name. It's them. It's they. And that once you dehumanize any group of people

once you dehumanize any group of people like that, and this has been the case

like that, and this has been the case for all of human history, that 99.9% of

for all of human history, that 99.9% of people cannot kill another human, but

people cannot kill another human, but they're perfectly fine killing them.

they're perfectly fine killing them. They that group once you dehumanize, you

They that group once you dehumanize, you can do anything. And at the at a much

can do anything. And at the at a much lower level, everyone realizes this with

lower level, everyone realizes this with road rage. I've had road rage. The

road rage. I've had road rage. The person cut me off. That son of a [ __ ]

person cut me off. That son of a [ __ ] honked my horn, flip I I don't I don't

honked my horn, flip I I don't I don't get too extreme with it. But in things I

get too extreme with it. But in things I would never do eye to eye. But once I'm

would never do eye to eye. But once I'm looking at a car, then it's it's there's

looking at a car, then it's it's there's no human there. And my ability to have a

no human there. And my ability to have a level of anger is so much higher than it

level of anger is so much higher than it would be if we were just looking eye to

would be if we were just looking eye to eye. I had this experience a couple

eye. I had this experience a couple years ago where I was pulling into a gas

years ago where I was pulling into a gas station and I inadvertently cut somebody

station and I inadvertently cut somebody off. It was an accident, but I totally

off. It was an accident, but I totally cut them off and he honked and threw up

cut them off and he honked and threw up his middle finger at me. And um we since

his middle finger at me. And um we since we pulled into the same gas station, we

we pulled into the same gas station, we were now like eye to eye and I walked

were now like eye to eye and I walked over to him and I think he thought I was

over to him and I think he thought I was like coming to like confront him and I

like coming to like confront him and I put up my hands and said, "I just want

put up my hands and said, "I just want to apologize. I didn't I didn't mean to

to apologize. I didn't I didn't mean to cut you off. I'm so sorry. I did." It

cut you off. I'm so sorry. I did." It was not on purpose. And he I think he

was not on purpose. And he I think he was so surprised and he was like, "Wow,

was so surprised and he was like, "Wow, thank you. Thanks for like and we had

thank you. Thanks for like and we had this moment of like almost hugging of

this moment of like almost hugging of just like I'm so like I hope hope you

just like I'm so like I hope hope you have a great day." It was one of those

have a great day." It was one of those of like once in the moment when it was

of like once in the moment when it was you strip the humanity off it when it

you strip the humanity off it when it was two cars each other both of us were

was two cars each other both of us were like [ __ ] you once we looked eye to eye

like [ __ ] you once we looked eye to eye it was like oh brother like it's okay

it was like oh brother like it's okay it's okay and I think that was just like

it's okay and I think that was just like for me that was an individual example of

for me that was an individual example of what happens at society when you strip

what happens at society when you strip the humanity off it we're capable of so

the humanity off it we're capable of so much anger and hate eye to eye we're

much anger and hate eye to eye we're like oh that's all good and I think all

like oh that's all good and I think all of us know somebody who we disagree with

of us know somebody who we disagree with politically regardless of what it might

politically regardless of what it might be and it's easy to be like oh that

be and it's easy to be like oh that person's an idiot. They're stupid.

person's an idiot. They're stupid. They're illinformed. And actually, if

They're illinformed. And actually, if you sit down and talk to them, you're

you sit down and talk to them, you're like, "Ah, look, we might have some

like, "Ah, look, we might have some disagreements here, but it's all good.

disagreements here, but it's all good. Cheers. Let's have a good night." Like,

Cheers. Let's have a good night." Like, eye to eye, like the vast majority of

eye to eye, like the vast majority of people get along and get together. But

people get along and get together. But social media has turned all of life into

social media has turned all of life into road rage.

road rage. >> Gosh. Yeah. I mean, you know that more

>> Gosh. Yeah. I mean, you know that more starkly than anyone as a podcaster

starkly than anyone as a podcaster because I sit here with everybody of all

because I sit here with everybody of all political opinions, extreme left, you

political opinions, extreme left, you know, pretty extreme right. And at this

know, pretty extreme right. And at this table, we get along,

table, we get along, >> right? We even off camera we get along.

>> right? We even off camera we get along. >> I think so many people have said this in

>> I think so many people have said this in the last 24 hours about Charlie Kirk.

the last 24 hours about Charlie Kirk. >> One of the most common phrases I've

>> One of the most common phrases I've heard was I didn't agree with everything

heard was I didn't agree with everything he said, but at least he was brave

he said, but at least he was brave enough to have a conversation with

enough to have a conversation with people who he disagreed with. That was

people who he disagreed with. That was what he did by and large was going into

what he did by and large was going into schools and being like, I know you

schools and being like, I know you disagree with me. Let's talk.

disagree with me. Let's talk. >> And and he turned it from road rage into

>> And and he turned it from road rage into a conversation between people. And even

a conversation between people. And even if you disagreed with him,

if you disagreed with him, >> I think he did it very right in that

>> I think he did it very right in that sense. And I think that's what's why

sense. And I think that's what's why people from all over the spectrum are

people from all over the spectrum are devastated in the last 24 hours. It was

devastated in the last 24 hours. It was like he was one of the people who was

like he was one of the people who was doing it right. Even when you disagreed

doing it right. Even when you disagreed with them, he was having a conversation

with them, he was having a conversation face to face and bringing people

face to face and bringing people together.

together. >> I think that absolutely hits the nail on

>> I think that absolutely hits the nail on the head, which is I think, you know,

the head, which is I think, you know, there's things that I absolutely don't

there's things that I absolutely don't agree with him on. But I actually think

agree with him on. But I actually think that's just completely beside the point

that's just completely beside the point because I want to live in a world where

because I want to live in a world where there's people that I disagree with.

there's people that I disagree with. Like I actually wouldn't choose the

Like I actually wouldn't choose the world where everyone I encountered

world where everyone I encountered agreed with my opinions. There would be

agreed with my opinions. There would be no intellectual growth. There'd be no

no intellectual growth. There'd be no understanding. there've been a real

understanding. there've been a real progress. Um, but also as you've

progress. Um, but also as you've highlighted, the way that Charlie Kirk

highlighted, the way that Charlie Kirk went about it was he would went to

went about it was he would went to Oxford University and went on the

Oxford University and went on the formalized debate panel against

formalized debate panel against >> in an office and a pine on social media.

>> in an office and a pine on social media. He went face to face and said, "I know

He went face to face and said, "I know you disagree with me.

you disagree with me. >> Let's have a Yeah. And I'll listen to

>> Let's have a Yeah. And I'll listen to what you He wasn't interrupting people

what you He wasn't interrupting people all the time. He hearing out their

all the time. He hearing out their points and he was making

points and he was making >> respectful about it." And what is

>> respectful about it." And what is missing from all political discourse

missing from all political discourse today, it's that. It's I know you

today, it's that. It's I know you disagree, but let's talk and let's try

disagree, but let's talk and let's try to be respectful about it.

to be respectful about it. >> And I can't think of anyone

>> And I can't think of anyone on either side who who did that as

on either side who who did that as consistently as he did,

consistently as he did, >> even if I disagree with him.

>> even if I disagree with him. The idea that we're only going to talk

The idea that we're only going to talk to people who we agree with is what

to people who we agree with is what causes all the problems.

causes all the problems. >> I don't understand these [ __ ] people.

>> I don't understand these [ __ ] people. I don't understand. It's much more

I don't understand. It's much more comfortable

comfortable to surround yourself with people who

to surround yourself with people who agree with you than to accept the nuance

agree with you than to accept the nuance of life. And this is the problem with a

of life. And this is the problem with a lot of political media is that it

lot of political media is that it creates much better content when people

creates much better content when people say this is right, this is wrong, he's

say this is right, this is wrong, he's right, he's wrong. To make it very

right, he's wrong. To make it very explicit, binary, black and white, than

explicit, binary, black and white, than it is to accept the truth, which is like

it is to accept the truth, which is like it's complicated.

it's complicated. >> I think I was like traumatized yesterday

>> I think I was like traumatized yesterday when I watched that when I saw the video

when I watched that when I saw the video of him being shot. I think it was this

of him being shot. I think it was this weird like deep sense of like like uh

weird like deep sense of like like uh I've not been able to articulate what it

I've not been able to articulate what it is, but it was I don't know Charlie

is, but it was I don't know Charlie Kirk. I've never met him. There was a

Kirk. I've never met him. There was a time when, you know, we were potentially

time when, you know, we were potentially going to have him on the show and we

going to have him on the show and we were trying to figure out like, you

were trying to figure out like, you know, who to who to have here with him

know, who to who to have here with him cuz he's such an unbelievable debater

cuz he's such an unbelievable debater that he would have ran [ __ ] rings

that he would have ran [ __ ] rings around me.

around me. >> Yeah.

>> Yeah. >> I was like, who can you put to

>> I was like, who can you put to >> You'd be like, you'd be like, fine, I'm

>> You'd be like, you'd be like, fine, I'm conservative. Yeah. Yeah.

conservative. Yeah. Yeah. >> But there was something really

>> But there was something really surprising in how I felt when I when I

surprising in how I felt when I when I both heard the news and saw um him being

both heard the news and saw um him being shot. This young guy, family person who

shot. This young guy, family person who was out debating, who had ideas that

was out debating, who had ideas that many people disagreed with, but was in a

many people disagreed with, but was in a forum where he was having them

forum where he was having them challenged, could be executed in public

challenged, could be executed in public on live stream in a way that his

on live stream in a way that his children are going to watch that video

children are going to watch that video when they grow up, probably multiple

when they grow up, probably multiple times. And I was like, "Oh god, what?"

times. And I was like, "Oh god, what?" Yeah. What does this say about the

Yeah. What does this say about the society we live in and where we're

society we live in and where we're heading? You know, I know guns play a

heading? You know, I know guns play a huge role in this and we have to

huge role in this and we have to acknowledge that because it's very very

acknowledge that because it's very very unlikely that could have happened in the

unlikely that could have happened in the UK because no, we don't have guns there.

UK because no, we don't have guns there. >> Yeah.

>> Yeah. >> So, you could have thrown a rock or

>> So, you could have thrown a rock or something, but you could have killed the

something, but you could have killed the guy. But it it's almost a it feels like

guy. But it it's almost a it feels like a crescendo of the moment.

a crescendo of the moment. >> Yeah.

>> Yeah. >> Where division and algorithms and now

>> Where division and algorithms and now that you know X has gone a certain way

that you know X has gone a certain way and other platforms are going certain

and other platforms are going certain ways. And if you look at the stats,

ways. And if you look at the stats, there's more social networks now that

there's more social networks now that have more than 20 million active users

have more than 20 million active users than at any time in human history. It's

than at any time in human history. It's gone up by 50% in recent times, which

gone up by 50% in recent times, which means we're becoming more splined. And

means we're becoming more splined. And then if you if you understand the

then if you if you understand the commercial models of these algorithms,

commercial models of these algorithms, their commercial model is dependent on

their commercial model is dependent on you spending more time there. So, how do

you spending more time there. So, how do I get you to spend more time there?

I get you to spend more time there? Well, I give you more of the things that

Well, I give you more of the things that are going to trigger your amydala, which

are going to trigger your amydala, which is, you know, your fear senses and and

is, you know, your fear senses and and uh the things that are going to drive,

uh the things that are going to drive, you know, drive you into rage and debate

you know, drive you into rage and debate and engagement and these and sharing

and engagement and these and sharing things. And so, I don't know. I I wonder

things. And so, I don't know. I I wonder if there's a way back from here. I have

if there's a way back from here. I have a an optimistic view and this is not a

a an optimistic view and this is not a forecast because I don't have 100% faith

forecast because I don't have 100% faith in this

in this >> but there are so many endless examples

>> but there are so many endless examples in history when people discount how

in history when people discount how powerful cycle cycles can be and so my

powerful cycle cycles can be and so my optimistic my hope it's not even a

optimistic my hope it's not even a forecast it's a hope is that 15 or 20

forecast it's a hope is that 15 or 20 years from now we look back at this era

years from now we look back at this era as when things bottomed politically from

as when things bottomed politically from which we grew out of we improved And

which we grew out of we improved And we're going to look back and be like,

we're going to look back and be like, man, the the 2020s were so bad and we

man, the the 2020s were so bad and we were so divided, but that was also a

were so divided, but that was also a bottom that we came out of, like a

bottom that we came out of, like a generational bottom. And that sounds

generational bottom. And that sounds crazy today, but that's always been the

crazy today, but that's always been the case. If you and I were talking about

case. If you and I were talking about the economy in the 1930s, it would have

the economy in the 1930s, it would have been preposterous, completely insane to

been preposterous, completely insane to say the 1950s are going to be the

say the 1950s are going to be the greatest, most unbound prosperity,

greatest, most unbound prosperity, middle class prosperity we're ever going

middle class prosperity we're ever going to have. That would have seemed insane.

to have. That would have seemed insane. If this was the 1970s and we just had a

If this was the 1970s and we just had a raft of political assassinations in the

raft of political assassinations in the 60s, John F. Kennedy, Martin Luther

60s, John F. Kennedy, Martin Luther King, Robert F. Kennedy, and then

King, Robert F. Kennedy, and then Richard Nixon uh is impeached and

Richard Nixon uh is impeached and resigned for Watergate, it would have

resigned for Watergate, it would have been completely insane for you and I to

been completely insane for you and I to say, "Hey, do you know what? The 80s and

say, "Hey, do you know what? The 80s and 90s are going to be an era of political

90s are going to be an era of political stability and political faith and trust

stability and political faith and trust in government." Would insane like it's

in government." Would insane like it's always when things are the lowest that

always when things are the lowest that you feel like you're never going to

you feel like you're never going to recover. But if you understand how

recover. But if you understand how cyclical things can be, it's usually the

cyclical things can be, it's usually the case that looking back you're like, man,

case that looking back you're like, man, it was bad. But looking back, that was

it was bad. But looking back, that was the bottom. And I have no idea if the

the bottom. And I have no idea if the bottom was yesterday or if it's going to

bottom was yesterday or if it's going to come 10 years from now. But I would bet

come 10 years from now. But I would bet that the most likely scenario whenever

that the most likely scenario whenever that bottom comes is that we will look

that bottom comes is that we will look 15 or 20 years back and be like that was

15 or 20 years back and be like that was terrible. And at that moment, everyone

terrible. And at that moment, everyone assumed it would go on forever, but

assumed it would go on forever, but looking back, that was actually a

looking back, that was actually a bottom. When enough people came together

bottom. When enough people came together and said, stop, stop. This is this is

and said, stop, stop. This is this is too much. the forces that we've gone too

too much. the forces that we've gone too far in the other direction. We need to

far in the other direction. We need to we need to come around from them. It is

we need to come around from them. It is always impossible in real time to wrap

always impossible in real time to wrap your head around that and to forecast

your head around that and to forecast it. It's only looking back that you're

it. It's only looking back that you're like, "Yes, that was the that that there

like, "Yes, that was the that that there was the bottom." And you can see things

was the bottom." And you can see things getting so bad. Trust in government is

getting so bad. Trust in government is so low. Polarization is so high. There

so low. Polarization is so high. There would not surprise me in the slightest

would not surprise me in the slightest if we look 20 years from now and be

if we look 20 years from now and be like, "Oh, things things got better."

like, "Oh, things things got better." >> I understand that from an economic

>> I understand that from an economic standpoint. I I struggle with it because

standpoint. I I struggle with it because of the presence of how we like because

of the presence of how we like because of the the medium in which we

of the the medium in which we communicate now with social media. Yeah.

communicate now with social media. Yeah. And I was looking at the some of the

And I was looking at the some of the stats here and it says in 1994 only 20%

stats here and it says in 1994 only 20% of Americans held a very unfavorable

of Americans held a very unfavorable view of the other party. By 2022 that

view of the other party. By 2022 that number has jumped to 72%

number has jumped to 72% among Republicans and 63% among de

among Republicans and 63% among de Democrats according to Pew Research. U

Democrats according to Pew Research. U and this is particularly pronounced in

and this is particularly pronounced in the United States. um and and the UK and

the United States. um and and the UK and other parts of Europe. In this report,

other parts of Europe. In this report, it says that social media um and also

it says that social media um and also cable news's role has only amplified

cable news's role has only amplified echo chambers, making the divide sharper

echo chambers, making the divide sharper and more emotional.

and more emotional. >> And I I can't especially with AI in the

>> And I I can't especially with AI in the way I go, well, AI is going to make

way I go, well, AI is going to make those algorithms even smarter.

those algorithms even smarter. >> Yeah.

>> Yeah. >> At understanding exactly what to show me

>> At understanding exactly what to show me to increase my engagement, therefore

to increase my engagement, therefore increase their advertising dollars. So,

increase their advertising dollars. So, I'm like, what what would be the the

I'm like, what what would be the the mechanism in this context?

mechanism in this context? I have no statistic or even strong thing

I have no statistic or even strong thing to back this up with, but my gut tells

to back this up with, but my gut tells me that the younger generation in

me that the younger generation in particular is going to be the one that

particular is going to be the one that looks at social media and looks at AI

looks at social media and looks at AI and recognizes the [ __ ] that can

and recognizes the [ __ ] that can come out of it. It's the older

come out of it. It's the older generation. It's the boomers today on

generation. It's the boomers today on social media who believe everything that

social media who believe everything that they see. And I think that tends to be

they see. And I think that tends to be where a lot of the polarization comes

where a lot of the polarization comes from. Not to blame everything on the

from. Not to blame everything on the older generation. But I think if you

older generation. But I think if you were to look at statistically who is the

were to look at statistically who is the most gullible on social media of

most gullible on social media of believing every post in their feed, it's

believing every post in their feed, it's the older generation. And it would not

the older generation. And it would not surprise me if the younger generation is

surprise me if the younger generation is much more attuned to how quickly you can

much more attuned to how quickly you can be led astray into some [ __ ] rabbit

be led astray into some [ __ ] rabbit hole that is not reflective of how the

hole that is not reflective of how the broader world works. I don't know if

broader world works. I don't know if that's true or not, but if you were to

that's true or not, but if you were to ask me to articulate why we're going to

ask me to articulate why we're going to get around the social media bubbles, it

get around the social media bubbles, it would be that the generations who have

would be that the generations who have been doing this the longest are going to

been doing this the longest are going to be the best at recognizing how dangerous

be the best at recognizing how dangerous it can be.

it can be. >> You're a very smart guy and you're

>> You're a very smart guy and you're someone that studies has studied history

someone that studies has studied history and understands, you know, you wrote the

and understands, you know, you wrote the book Same as Ever, which shows a a guide

book Same as Ever, which shows a a guide to what doesn't change through history

to what doesn't change through history and how things can often stay the same.

and how things can often stay the same. So, this is a bit bit of a peculiar

So, this is a bit bit of a peculiar question for you, but in the wake of

question for you, but in the wake of what happened to Charlie Kirk yesterday,

what happened to Charlie Kirk yesterday, his his public murder and all that's

his his public murder and all that's rising from that, what should someone

rising from that, what should someone like me and you, who have public

like me and you, who have public platforms, who reach people on a daily

platforms, who reach people on a daily basis, do help?

basis, do help? >> I think we have to remind ourselves two

>> I think we have to remind ourselves two things about social media. One is that

things about social media. One is that it's been designed by the smartest

it's been designed by the smartest people of our generation to deliver you

people of our generation to deliver you in your feed not the best information,

in your feed not the best information, not the right information. Basically,

not the right information. Basically, what's going to give you the most FOMO,

what's going to give you the most FOMO, the most anxiety, what's going to like

the most anxiety, what's going to like pull out the starkkest reaction in you.

pull out the starkkest reaction in you. >> And the smartest people of our

>> And the smartest people of our generation have gone to work at Facebook

generation have gone to work at Facebook and Google and whatever and Tik Tok to

and Google and whatever and Tik Tok to make an algorithm that's going to give

make an algorithm that's going to give you that. That's going to give you the

you that. That's going to give you the the thing in your feed that's going to

the thing in your feed that's going to make you go, "Wow, like what?" Like,

make you go, "Wow, like what?" Like, that's so out. And two is that even when

that's so out. And two is that even when it's it's not that even when it is just

it's it's not that even when it is just people's thoughts

people's thoughts people go on social media to perform

people go on social media to perform >> they go on like they are trying to give

>> they go on like they are trying to give you and I'm trying to do this on social

you and I'm trying to do this on social media as well. I don't want to give you

media as well. I don't want to give you any random thought in my head. I'm going

any random thought in my head. I'm going to specifically give you what I think is

to specifically give you what I think is going to be interesting and what not. So

going to be interesting and what not. So if we view social media as a proxy for

if we view social media as a proxy for the real world and I think everyone it

the real world and I think everyone it kind of intuitively does even if they

kind of intuitively does even if they when you say it out loud you're like no

when you say it out loud you're like no of course it's not the real world. But

of course it's not the real world. But it's easy to assume that when I open up

it's easy to assume that when I open up Twitter or Facebook or Instagram, I'm

Twitter or Facebook or Instagram, I'm like, I I'm just I'm just seeing a

like, I I'm just I'm just seeing a window into the world. You're like, no,

window into the world. You're like, no, these are people performing for you and

these are people performing for you and the smartest minds in the world ordering

the smartest minds in the world ordering that performance for what's going to

that performance for what's going to give you the most anxiety.

give you the most anxiety. >> Are you optimistic about the the Western

>> Are you optimistic about the the Western economy, the US economy?

economy, the US economy? >> I could be optimistic long-term and

>> I could be optimistic long-term and realistic about what growth means. The

realistic about what growth means. The reason we tend to have growth in the

reason we tend to have growth in the economy and in the stock market is

economy and in the stock market is because it's specifically because

because it's specifically because there's short-term chaos. So, am I

there's short-term chaos. So, am I optimistic about the next 30 years? AB:

optimistic about the next 30 years? AB: Absolutely. I know that my kids will be

Absolutely. I know that my kids will be living a better material life than you

living a better material life than you and I are. They'll have better medicine.

and I are. They'll have better medicine. They'll have better technology. They'll

They'll have better technology. They'll have flying cars. Whatever it is, it

have flying cars. Whatever it is, it does that. But I'm equally confident, if

does that. But I'm equally confident, if not more confident, that the path

not more confident, that the path between now and then is going to be

between now and then is going to be chaos. And that's not exclus. That's not

chaos. And that's not exclus. That's not mutually exclusive. like the fact that I

mutually exclusive. like the fact that I know I'm extremely confident that

know I'm extremely confident that there's going to be a lot of growth and

there's going to be a lot of growth and that it's going to be a constant chain

that it's going to be a constant chain of setback and suffering and misery

of setback and suffering and misery between now and then.

between now and then. >> Is there anything that you see it

>> Is there anything that you see it creating a setback? I mean, there's

creating a setback? I mean, there's these new protagonists in the story.

these new protagonists in the story. There's AI, there's um the declining

There's AI, there's um the declining birth rates which is going to have an

birth rates which is going to have an impact on the population. Is there

impact on the population. Is there anything that you think is your most

anything that you think is your most focus? There's tariffs as well. Um

focus? There's tariffs as well. Um there's Trump economics which can cause

there's Trump economics which can cause some instability. Historically, the

some instability. Historically, the biggest risk by far has always been the

biggest risk by far has always been the thing that nobody's talking about. So

thing that nobody's talking about. So when we sur you and I survey the world

when we sur you and I survey the world today, we talk about exactly what you

today, we talk about exactly what you just said, tariffs, birth rate. People

just said, tariffs, birth rate. People know about those things. There's never

know about those things. There's never been a period when the biggest risk was

been a period when the biggest risk was something that was knowable. It's always

something that was knowable. It's always something like COVID, which nobody saw

something like COVID, which nobody saw coming, September 11th, which nobody saw

coming, September 11th, which nobody saw coming, the Great Depression, like all

coming, the Great Depression, like all these things, Pearl Harbor, all these

these things, Pearl Harbor, all these things that were not on people's radar

things that were not on people's radar that did the most damage. And so it's

that did the most damage. And so it's not that I don't worry about tariffs or

not that I don't worry about tariffs or that I don't worry about uh birth rates.

that I don't worry about uh birth rates. I do. But I would guarantee you that the

I do. But I would guarantee you that the the worst economic story of the next 10

the worst economic story of the next 10 years. The biggest risk is something

years. The biggest risk is something that you and I are not talking about

that you and I are not talking about whatsoever. It's a risk that's going to

whatsoever. It's a risk that's going to come completely out of the blue. That is

come completely out of the blue. That is not in any newspaper. It's not in any

not in any newspaper. It's not in any podcast. That's going to be the biggest

podcast. That's going to be the biggest risk. Is there a particular chapter in

risk. Is there a particular chapter in the psychology of money which was your

the psychology of money which was your the book that sold I I hear almost 10

the book that sold I I hear almost 10 million copies and had a profound impact

million copies and had a profound impact on my life and and my family's life. Is

on my life and and my family's life. Is there a particular story or chapter in

there a particular story or chapter in this book that is your favorite?

this book that is your favorite? >> I think the the chapter on reasonable

>> I think the the chapter on reasonable versus rational which to very quickly

versus rational which to very quickly summarize it is don't pretend like you

summarize it is don't pretend like you are purely rational and you're a

are purely rational and you're a spreadsheet and your financial decisions

spreadsheet and your financial decisions have to like make perfect sense.

have to like make perfect sense. Everyone is a little bit flawed, a

Everyone is a little bit flawed, a little bit emotional, different family

little bit emotional, different family situations, different goals. As long as

situations, different goals. As long as your financial decisions are merely

your financial decisions are merely reasonable, that's good. And I think a

reasonable, that's good. And I think a lot of people, for me, and for a lot of

lot of people, for me, and for a lot of people, they're like, "Oh, thank you for

people, they're like, "Oh, thank you for giving me permission because I have this

giving me permission because I have this quirky thing that I do with my money and

quirky thing that I do with my money and it doesn't make any sense, but it's

it doesn't make any sense, but it's reasonable and but it makes sense for my

reasonable and but it makes sense for my personality." And like, as long as it's

personality." And like, as long as it's reasonable, like don't be unreasonable,

reasonable, like don't be unreasonable, >> but don't think that every one of your

>> but don't think that every one of your financial decisions has to add up

financial decisions has to add up perfectly in a spreadsheet. You want to

perfectly in a spreadsheet. You want to use money as a tool for a better life

use money as a tool for a better life >> and there's many different ways to do

>> and there's many different ways to do that. A lot of which might make sense to

that. A lot of which might make sense to me but not make sense to you or vice

me but not make sense to you or vice versa. And so that's fine. And so uh I I

versa. And so that's fine. And so uh I I think that to me of just like hey this

think that to me of just like hey this is not an exercise in a spreadsheet

is not an exercise in a spreadsheet where I'm just trying to make sure all

where I'm just trying to make sure all the numbers add up. I'm just trying to

the numbers add up. I'm just trying to use money to be a little bit happier and

use money to be a little bit happier and to sleep better and to give myself my

to sleep better and to give myself my family a little bit of a better life.

family a little bit of a better life. Even if it doesn't always make sense.

Even if it doesn't always make sense. This is a tool to give me a better life.

This is a tool to give me a better life. If money is a tool for happiness, I

If money is a tool for happiness, I guess you have to get really clear,

guess you have to get really clear, which you talk about in in your new

which you talk about in in your new book, The Art of Spending Money. You

book, The Art of Spending Money. You have to get really clear on what your

have to get really clear on what your goal is. And I think most of us have

goal is. And I think most of us have never actually done an exercise to get

never actually done an exercise to get clear on that.

clear on that. >> Yes.

>> Yes. >> Which is quite shocking. Jeff Bezos

>> Which is quite shocking. Jeff Bezos talks about this in a way that I think

talks about this in a way that I think was really profound where he's like he

was really profound where he's like he thought about building Amazon with what

thought about building Amazon with what he called the regret minimization

he called the regret minimization framework which was he envisioned

framework which was he envisioned himself being 90 years old or whatever

himself being 90 years old or whatever on his deathbed and looking back and he

on his deathbed and looking back and he said the goal for life was to be on your

said the goal for life was to be on your deathbed and have as few regrets as

deathbed and have as few regrets as possible. And he said if he started

possible. And he said if he started Amazon and it failed he would not have

Amazon and it failed he would not have regretted that. But if he never tried to

regretted that. But if he never tried to start it, he would regret it. And so it

start it, he would regret it. And so it was an easy of of course he has to do it

was an easy of of course he has to do it because he wants to have as few regrets

because he wants to have as few regrets as possible. But I just think that very

as possible. But I just think that very simple framework of the overarching goal

simple framework of the overarching goal in life. If you have like what is the

in life. If you have like what is the base of the pyramid for how to good live

base of the pyramid for how to good live a good life, you want to have as few

a good life, you want to have as few regrets as possible. Not take as few

regrets as possible. Not take as few risks as you can. Just have as few

risks as you can. Just have as few regrets as possible. And I think what's

regrets as possible. And I think what's hard is that people by and large don't

hard is that people by and large don't have a good concept of what they will

have a good concept of what they will regret. It's it's easy to do because a

regret. It's it's easy to do because a lot of things kind of compound slowly.

lot of things kind of compound slowly. So, uh if you eat a poor diet or if

So, uh if you eat a poor diet or if you're like not treating your friends as

you're like not treating your friends as well as you should, that's like a slow

well as you should, that's like a slow thing. You might regret it eventually,

thing. You might regret it eventually, but you're going to look back, but in

but you're going to look back, but in real time, you don't really understand

real time, you don't really understand what you're doing. So, to have a good

what you're doing. So, to have a good sense of what you're going to regret is

sense of what you're going to regret is a difficult thing, but to me, that's the

a difficult thing, but to me, that's the ultimate goal in life. There is a a you

ultimate goal in life. There is a a you know I I I heard the story one time of a

know I I I heard the story one time of a uh of a guy who his his his last words

uh of a guy who his his his last words on his deathbed were so much wasted

on his deathbed were so much wasted time. Those are his last words. And I

time. Those are his last words. And I remember thinking like that's that's

remember thinking like that's that's that's as worse that's that's as bad as

that's as worse that's that's as bad as it comes to be on your deathbed and look

it comes to be on your deathbed and look back and being like man what a what a

back and being like man what a what a regret just filled with regrets of the

regret just filled with regrets of the things you didn't do of the way that you

things you didn't do of the way that you treated people of the risk that you

treated people of the risk that you didn't take. And so I think that if

didn't take. And so I think that if there is an overarching philosophy, it's

there is an overarching philosophy, it's that. And I ask myself a lot like, do I

that. And I ask myself a lot like, do I have a good sense of what I'm going to

have a good sense of what I'm going to regret? And for every decision that I

regret? And for every decision that I make, do I ask myself, will I regret

make, do I ask myself, will I regret doing or not doing this thing? Easier

doing or not doing this thing? Easier said than done, but it's something I

said than done, but it's something I think about a lot.

think about a lot. I think it's generally just hard for us

I think it's generally just hard for us to appreciate that there will be a

to appreciate that there will be a future self. I I was reading a study

future self. I I was reading a study where they put people in these MRI

where they put people in these MRI scanners and then asked them to think

scanners and then asked them to think about themsel and then a celebrity and

about themsel and then a celebrity and then themselves in 10 years time and the

then themselves in 10 years time and the when they thought about themselves a

when they thought about themselves a certain part of the brain lit up when

certain part of the brain lit up when they thought about a celebrity or

they thought about a celebrity or themselves in 10 years time a different

themselves in 10 years time a different part of the brain lit lit up which kind

part of the brain lit lit up which kind of makes you think that we don't really

of makes you think that we don't really our future self is a stranger.

our future self is a stranger. >> Yeah. And so we act and I think this

>> Yeah. And so we act and I think this about the people that I sit here with I

about the people that I sit here with I think probably most of the people that I

think probably most of the people that I sit here with learning from. If you

sit here with learning from. If you could like distill it down to why

could like distill it down to why they're here, it's because they were

they're here, it's because they were able to think about themselves in 10

able to think about themselves in 10 years time.

years time. >> They were able so they became an athlete

>> They were able so they became an athlete and trained or they became a CEO or they

and trained or they became a CEO or they became an expert in something. They were

became an expert in something. They were able to like think and they got through

able to like think and they got through the PhD and all the I don't know just

the PhD and all the I don't know just >> there's a great quote from Jerry

>> there's a great quote from Jerry Seinfeld. He says self-control is

Seinfeld. He says self-control is empathy with your future self. M

empathy with your future self. M >> it's you are making a decision to either

>> it's you are making a decision to either do or not do something today because you

do or not do something today because you have respect for your future self and

have respect for your future self and you care about your future self. You

you care about your future self. You know there's going to be a Steven 10

know there's going to be a Steven 10 years from now and you want to do

years from now and you want to do something today with compassion for that

something today with compassion for that person 10 years from now.

person 10 years from now. >> I'm guessing kids help in some regard

>> I'm guessing kids help in some regard because they give you a future

because they give you a future >> to think about. Yeah. Right. something

>> to think about. Yeah. Right. something that's gonna outlive you and you want to

that's gonna outlive you and you want to teach them something and and you know

teach them something and and you know push them into becoming someone that's

push them into becoming someone that's gonna outlive you. So you're you're have

gonna outlive you. So you're you're have like by default you're thinking about

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month of your replet plan. You talk in the book about trying new things and and

the book about trying new things and and why that is. Uh there's a chapter called

why that is. Uh there's a chapter called try something new and I think a lot of

try something new and I think a lot of us actually get stuck in ruts in life

us actually get stuck in ruts in life and that ends up we get stuck in

and that ends up we get stuck in routine. It's weird how as we age we

routine. It's weird how as we age we like routine more but intuitively

like routine more but intuitively everyone would say that routine makes

everyone would say that routine makes them

them >> boring

>> boring >> boring less less life less spontaneous

>> boring less less life less spontaneous less interesting less ore less wonder

less interesting less ore less wonder there's a thing people realize this that

there's a thing people realize this that summer vacation when you're 10 years old

summer vacation when you're 10 years old seems like it lasts forever but when

seems like it lasts forever but when you're an adult summer goes by in 3

you're an adult summer goes by in 3 seconds and you're like what like why

seconds and you're like what like why does why is time going faster at least

does why is time going faster at least one of the theories for why it seems

one of the theories for why it seems like time goes faster as you age is

like time goes faster as you age is because when you're a child every day is

because when you're a child every day is something new. You're experiencing

something new. You're experiencing something for the first time. It's a

something for the first time. It's a constant chain of novelty. When you're

constant chain of novelty. When you're an adult, it's probably the same

an adult, it's probably the same commute, going to the same job, living

commute, going to the same job, living in the same house, and one day blends

in the same house, and one day blends into the next, and before you know it,

into the next, and before you know it, 10 years has passed. And so, the idea of

10 years has passed. And so, the idea of like trying something new, I think, is

like trying something new, I think, is is is important. The point I made in the

is is important. The point I made in the book about trying something new is you

book about trying something new is you don't know what your thing that you

don't know what your thing that you really are going to enjoy in life is. It

really are going to enjoy in life is. It might not be intuitive. Some people

might not be intuitive. Some people value travel. By and large, I don't.

value travel. By and large, I don't. Some people enjoy like spending a ton of

Some people enjoy like spending a ton of money on wine. By and large, I don't.

money on wine. By and large, I don't. But I do spend my money on things that

But I do spend my money on things that you might not appreciate. Like,

you might not appreciate. Like, everybody's different. You can't.

everybody's different. You can't. There's no formula for how to do it. You

There's no formula for how to do it. You have to try a million different kinds of

have to try a million different kinds of spending before you're like, "Oh, I like

spending before you're like, "Oh, I like this. I don't like that. I want to focus

this. I don't like that. I want to focus more on this." And it's not intuitive

more on this." And it's not intuitive what that thing is going to be. My wife

what that thing is going to be. My wife and I also had this realization in the

and I also had this realization in the last month. So many people when they

last month. So many people when they talk think about money and spending,

talk think about money and spending, they're like, "I want to travel. I want

they're like, "I want to travel. I want to I want to have more money so I can

to I want to have more money so I can travel." I think by and large that's

travel." I think by and large that's great. Travel is an amazing thing. My

great. Travel is an amazing thing. My wife and I realized that like I think

wife and I realized that like I think we've done so much of it and because we

we've done so much of it and because we have kids right now that we're like I

have kids right now that we're like I don't think we enjoy it that much. And

don't think we enjoy it that much. And it wasn't until we were looking at our

it wasn't until we were looking at our summer schedule that we're like okay we

summer schedule that we're like okay we got two more trips coming up that we

got two more trips coming up that we were like really and we realized the

were like really and we realized the best part of the last several trips that

best part of the last several trips that we've taken is coming home.

we've taken is coming home. The most enjoyable part of the trip was

The most enjoyable part of the trip was coming home. And we were like, can we

coming home. And we were like, can we just admit

just admit >> that maybe we shouldn't be doing this as

>> that maybe we shouldn't be doing this as much as we do.

much as we do. >> That's so fun.

>> That's so fun. >> Even if society tells us that we should

>> Even if society tells us that we should do it and everyone else I travel a lot

do it and everyone else I travel a lot for work. So like my idea of a vacation

for work. So like my idea of a vacation is not not going on an airplane.

is not not going on an airplane. >> And but you have to realize like

>> And but you have to realize like everyone's unique and different. Like if

everyone's unique and different. Like if travel is your thing or someone

travel is your thing or someone listening to this, awesome. Please go do

listening to this, awesome. Please go do it. We had to just admit to ourselves

it. We had to just admit to ourselves that at least at this phase of our life,

that at least at this phase of our life, we want to do a little bit less of it.

we want to do a little bit less of it. The idea that everyone's different is

The idea that everyone's different is important.

important. >> I think I mean I think exactly that. I

>> I think I mean I think exactly that. I think what underp underpins much of your

think what underp underpins much of your message here is this ability to

message here is this ability to cultivate self-awareness.

cultivate self-awareness. >> Yeah. And I think a lot of what throws

>> Yeah. And I think a lot of what throws people off with money is chasing a

people off with money is chasing a lifestyle that is right for somebody

lifestyle that is right for somebody else but not right for them. And that it

else but not right for them. And that it can be very a hard thing to do because

can be very a hard thing to do because you're like, man, this person over here,

you're like, man, this person over here, he's working this hard and and she has

he's working this hard and and she has this house and they're living this

this house and they're living this lifestyle and it looks like they're

lifestyle and it looks like they're pretty happy. And then you try to do it

pretty happy. And then you try to do it and you're like, but I'm not happy. And

and you're like, but I'm not happy. And the truth may have been that working

the truth may have been that working that hard and spending money on that was

that hard and spending money on that was right for that person, but it's not

right for that person, but it's not right for you.

right for you. >> That's what we don't understand.

>> That's what we don't understand. >> You and I had Jeff Bezos's

>> You and I had Jeff Bezos's ambition, Elon Musk's ambition, I think

ambition, Elon Musk's ambition, I think we I I' I'd drive we drive ourselves

we I I' I'd drive we drive ourselves absolutely crazy. It's right for them,

absolutely crazy. It's right for them, it might not be right for us.

it might not be right for us. >> And so when we view it as it worked for

>> And so when we view it as it worked for them, so I should do it, too. No, no,

them, so I should do it, too. No, no, no. It doesn't work like that. You have

no. It doesn't work like that. You have to figure it out for yourself.

to figure it out for yourself. >> But also the inverse, right? It didn't

>> But also the inverse, right? It didn't work for them, so it won't work for me.

work for them, so it won't work for me. is also incorrect,

is also incorrect, >> right? I think it's immature for people

>> right? I think it's immature for people to say, I like this thing and therefore

to say, I like this thing and therefore you should too.

you should too. >> Or the reverse, this didn't work for me

>> Or the reverse, this didn't work for me and therefore nobody should do it.

and therefore nobody should do it. >> This is the whole work life balance.

>> This is the whole work life balance. >> That's not how life works. Right. Right.

>> That's not how life works. Right. Right. >> And this is what you see raging on

>> And this is what you see raging on LinkedIn is one group of people saying

LinkedIn is one group of people saying that amount of work and sacrifice is

that amount of work and sacrifice is toxic.

toxic. >> You should do it or or which is you're

>> You should do it or or which is you're lazy.

lazy. >> You have you have to hustle. You're lazy

>> You have you have to hustle. You're lazy if you don't live the life that I do.

if you don't live the life that I do. >> And both sides are wrong.

>> And both sides are wrong. >> Yes. It comes from a sense of immaturity

>> Yes. It comes from a sense of immaturity that everyone else should enjoy life in

that everyone else should enjoy life in the exact same way that I do.

the exact same way that I do. >> I think there's a few psych

>> I think there's a few psych psychological forces at play here. One

psychological forces at play here. One is

is if you're looking at a bunch of people

if you're looking at a bunch of people working really hard and you're not, it's

working really hard and you're not, it's in a weird way holding a mirror up to

in a weird way holding a mirror up to you and implicitly sort of like

you and implicitly sort of like indirectly saying that you're not

indirectly saying that you're not enough.

enough. >> Yeah.

>> Yeah. >> And then maybe on the other side there's

>> And then maybe on the other side there's some other force going the other way.

some other force going the other way. But I think both sides are kind of like

But I think both sides are kind of like misunderstanding

misunderstanding that everybody is not them.

that everybody is not them. >> Yes. And I can pick apart elements of

>> Yes. And I can pick apart elements of your life. Say, "Wow, Stephen, his

your life. Say, "Wow, Stephen, his podcast is is this and he's got homes

podcast is is this and he's got homes here and he's doing this." But there's a

here and he's doing this." But there's a million different components of your

million different components of your life in my life and everybody's life

life in my life and everybody's life that are invisible. And most people

that are invisible. And most people because of self-preservation or because

because of self-preservation or because they're trying to get ahead in life will

they're trying to get ahead in life will not disclose what the bad parts of their

not disclose what the bad parts of their life are. Of course, everybody does

life are. Of course, everybody does this. I I do this. You probably do.

this. I I do this. You probably do. Everyone does that because either they

Everyone does that because either they don't want to admit them to themselves

don't want to admit them to themselves or they don't want to talk about it

or they don't want to talk about it because they think other people are

because they think other people are going to judge them for the bad parts of

going to judge them for the bad parts of their life. So, it's very easy to look

their life. So, it's very easy to look at other people's lives and have a sense

at other people's lives and have a sense of like, oh, well, theirs is better than

of like, oh, well, theirs is better than mine because all you can see is what

mine because all you can see is what they are advertising.

they are advertising. And uh and and and because of that, it's

And uh and and and because of that, it's very easy to be jealous or envious of

very easy to be jealous or envious of people and say, "If only I had their

people and say, "If only I had their life, things would be better." And part

life, things would be better." And part of it is good. It's part of it is good

of it is good. It's part of it is good for me to look at be like, "Man,

for me to look at be like, "Man, Stephen's been so successful doing this

Stephen's been so successful doing this kind of content. Maybe I should do

kind of content. Maybe I should do that's motivation." But once I say

that's motivation." But once I say their life looks better than mine, and

their life looks better than mine, and if only I had what they had, I would be

if only I had what they had, I would be happier is is a very treacherous path,

happier is is a very treacherous path, treacherous path to go down.

treacherous path to go down. >> Jack is the producer on the show. He's

>> Jack is the producer on the show. He's he's done the show with me since the the

he's done the show with me since the the very beginning of us launching on

very beginning of us launching on YouTube. And so he understands the

YouTube. And so he understands the intricacies of my life very well. He

intricacies of my life very well. He understands my business. He understands,

understands my business. He understands, you know, the this what it takes and the

you know, the this what it takes and the trade-offs. So, Jack,

trade-offs. So, Jack, would you want my life?

would you want my life? >> Absolutely not.

>> Absolutely not. [Laughter]

[Laughter] >> No hesitation there.

>> No hesitation there. >> There's there's no world where like I

>> There's there's no world where like I could even imagine being in your world.

could even imagine being in your world. The amount of people that are bidding

The amount of people that are bidding for your attention on a daily basis is

for your attention on a daily basis is mind-blowing to me. the podcast is like

mind-blowing to me. the podcast is like such a huge part of your life, but the

such a huge part of your life, but the fact that I barely hear from you on like

fact that I barely hear from you on like a weekly basis can probably put into a

a weekly basis can probably put into a little bit of perspective how much you

little bit of perspective how much you have on your plate. I just like couldn't

have on your plate. I just like couldn't imagine having the magnifying glass on

imagine having the magnifying glass on me that much

me that much >> that the whole world is kind of looking

>> that the whole world is kind of looking at me and thinking like has an opinion

at me and thinking like has an opinion on you.

on you. >> Mhm.

>> Mhm. >> And you run lots of businesses, so you

>> And you run lots of businesses, so you almost have to perform a little bit. And

almost have to perform a little bit. And I think I see the worst of you and I

I think I see the worst of you and I actually take that a huge compliment

actually take that a huge compliment because you can be yourself around me. I

because you can be yourself around me. I remember the time when you had to

remember the time when you had to schedule your lunch.

schedule your lunch. >> Oh, I still schedule my lunch. It

>> Oh, I still schedule my lunch. It doesn't happen but I schedule it.

doesn't happen but I schedule it. >> You schedule it cuz you like don't get

>> You schedule it cuz you like don't get time for your lunch.

time for your lunch. >> Like you went out of here, you went to

>> Like you went out of here, you went to the toilet and people are asking you

the toilet and people are asking you questions in between going from here to

questions in between going from here to the toilet. It's stuff that needs to be

the toilet. It's stuff that needs to be asked, but it's that is your life.

asked, but it's that is your life. That's the kind of thing that you've um

That's the kind of thing that you've um gone into.

gone into. >> And I don't know if that kind of answers

>> And I don't know if that kind of answers your question. I could probably go on

your question. I could probably go on for a long long time, but I've got

for a long long time, but I've got >> you should do a whole episode to do I've

>> you should do a whole episode to do I've got last question then. So ask two more

got last question then. So ask two more questions. The next question is do you

questions. The next question is do you think that I do you think I'm happy in

think that I do you think I'm happy in my life?

my life? >> Uh yes. I don't think you're content.

>> Uh yes. I don't think you're content. >> Mhm.

>> Mhm. >> I think you're happy, but I don't think

>> I think you're happy, but I don't think you're content.

you're content. >> Yeah.

>> Yeah. >> And what do you mean by content? Like

>> And what do you mean by content? Like what do you mean by content? you're

what do you mean by content? you're always trying to chase the next thing

always trying to chase the next thing and I'm not sure why. Like you could so

and I'm not sure why. Like you could so easily just do this podcast and it would

easily just do this podcast and it would do so well for you. Like it does do so

do so well for you. Like it does do so well for you. Uh you could spend all

well for you. Uh you could spend all your time doing this and I think you're

your time doing this and I think you're super happy when you do do this. But

super happy when you do do this. But then there's also other stuff that

then there's also other stuff that clearly makes you happy that you want to

clearly makes you happy that you want to do, but then you'll come to me and

do, but then you'll come to me and you're like, "We should start this new

you're like, "We should start this new YouTube channel."

YouTube channel." And I'm kind of like, yeah, great idea,

And I'm kind of like, yeah, great idea, but I don't know why you want that extra

but I don't know why you want that extra effort. To your core, you're a

effort. To your core, you're a businessman, so you're constantly trying

businessman, so you're constantly trying to build and scale, but on like a

to build and scale, but on like a personal reflection of how much extra

personal reflection of how much extra toll that takes on you. And also for

toll that takes on you. And also for Mel, I know your relationship with Mel,

Mel, I know your relationship with Mel, you don't see her that much.

you don't see her that much. So, I think that's quite an interesting

So, I think that's quite an interesting one. But yes, I do think you're happy,

one. But yes, I do think you're happy, but I don't think you're content.

but I don't think you're content. >> And last question, what would you like

>> And last question, what would you like from my life?

from my life? >> What would I like from your life?

>> What would I like from your life? >> Yeah. So you said you wouldn't want my

>> Yeah. So you said you wouldn't want my you would want my life

you would want my life >> because and you talked about the

>> because and you talked about the downsides.

downsides. >> Yeah. What elements Yeah. of my life

>> Yeah. What elements Yeah. of my life would you like?

would you like? >> That's actually quite interesting cuz I

>> That's actually quite interesting cuz I was I think I was talking to Jim and Coy

was I think I was talking to Jim and Coy about this last night. Your life is so

about this last night. Your life is so engineered to be super efficient.

engineered to be super efficient. >> Yeah.

>> Yeah. >> So you have someone books your cars for

>> So you have someone books your cars for you, someone books your flights for you.

you, someone books your flights for you. You you basically, as far as I'm aware,

You you basically, as far as I'm aware, I don't think you do much kind of normal

I don't think you do much kind of normal admin that I would do.

admin that I would do. >> No, I don't even pick what I eat.

>> No, I don't even pick what I eat. >> Yeah. Exactly.

>> Yeah. Exactly. >> I like I get the surprise. I walk out

>> I like I get the surprise. I walk out here and it's there and I go, "Okay,

here and it's there and I go, "Okay, well, I'm having broccoli today."

well, I'm having broccoli today." >> And I think so much of like the joys of

>> And I think so much of like the joys of what comes from life is the little

what comes from life is the little messiness of life.

messiness of life. >> Yeah.

>> Yeah. >> And I actually think Morgan kind of

>> And I actually think Morgan kind of touched on this at the start, that

touched on this at the start, that simple kind of family that just

simple kind of family that just >> they're not like super ambitious, but

>> they're not like super ambitious, but they're super happy. Like that messiness

they're super happy. Like that messiness of life is kind of there's so much like

of life is kind of there's so much like beauty in that. I know you asked me what

beauty in that. I know you asked me what you would want from your life, but I

you would want from your life, but I think on the surface I probably would

think on the surface I probably would like that stuff, but I understand and

like that stuff, but I understand and appreciate the beauty of doing those.

appreciate the beauty of doing those. >> I ask the question around um um do you

>> I ask the question around um um do you think I'm happy? Because

think I'm happy? Because even though you heard all of that stuff

even though you heard all of that stuff and you go, "Fuck me, this guy like he

and you go, "Fuck me, this guy like he he doesn't have much time and he's he's

he doesn't have much time and he's he's always working." And like we took a

always working." And like we took a toilet break, which the audience

toilet break, which the audience probably won't know, but yeah. As I

probably won't know, but yeah. As I walked out of there, two different team

walked out of there, two different team members came up to me two different

members came up to me two different issues. They said, "Someone's wants to

issues. They said, "Someone's wants to come on the podcast tonight. I've got

come on the podcast tonight. I've got this huge meeting in New York City

this huge meeting in New York City tonight with this major investor for 4

tonight with this major investor for 4 hours." That then they asked me in the

hours." That then they asked me in the hallway. They said, "Do you want this

hallway. They said, "Do you want this major guest to come on the show tonight

major guest to come on the show tonight or to cancel this huge meeting with this

or to cancel this huge meeting with this investor

investor >> to make the decision in 4 seconds?"

>> to make the decision in 4 seconds?" >> 4 seconds. So you saw me sit down and go

>> 4 seconds. So you saw me sit down and go tell the team yes.

tell the team yes. >> I I did

>> I I did >> which was me making that executive

>> which was me making that executive decision and I was on my phone for two

decision and I was on my phone for two and a half seconds trying to make the

and a half seconds trying to make the decision. But it also means that date

decision. But it also means that date night is if impacted with my girlfriend.

night is if impacted with my girlfriend. He's So like that that was a little

He's So like that that was a little representation of my life. And I I um I

representation of my life. And I I um I asked Jack if he thinks I'm happy

asked Jack if he thinks I'm happy because my opinion

because my opinion and I could be living in a delusion is

and I could be living in a delusion is that I am happy. And I the way that I

that I am happy. And I the way that I would hazard a guess that I'm happy is I

would hazard a guess that I'm happy is I am not unhappy and I don't have

am not unhappy and I don't have unhappiness.

unhappiness. My guess too is that you if you said I'm

My guess too is that you if you said I'm going to quit the podcast, quit all

going to quit the podcast, quit all this, close the business down, you would

this, close the business down, you would be beside yourself with anxiety and

be beside yourself with anxiety and depression.

depression. >> And so it's less about like is doing

>> And so it's less about like is doing this does doing this make you happy? I

this does doing this make you happy? I think the better answer is not doing

think the better answer is not doing this would make you miserable.

this would make you miserable. >> Yeah.

>> Yeah. >> But that's who you are and that's how

>> But that's who you are and that's how and I again I'm so grateful that people

and I again I'm so grateful that people like you exist because I get to benefit

like you exist because I get to benefit from the sacrifices that you made.

from the sacrifices that you made. >> It's not a sacrifice to me.

>> It's not a sacrifice to me. Yes, I I I I get that. But what from my

Yes, I I I I get that. But what from my perspective would be a sacrifice I get

perspective would be a sacrifice I get to benefit from because you make great

to benefit from because you make great content that I listen to and whatnot.

content that I listen to and whatnot. >> And so I like living in a world where

>> And so I like living in a world where most people wake up in the morning and

most people wake up in the morning and say this isn't enough.

say this isn't enough. >> And I I I think I do that too. I want to

>> And I I I think I do that too. I want to write more books, better books, and but

write more books, better books, and but if you don't have some capacity to say,

if you don't have some capacity to say, look, I have ambitions. I have goals

look, I have ambitions. I have goals that I want to achieve. I want to work

that I want to achieve. I want to work hard to achieve those. I want to

hard to achieve those. I want to sacrifice to achieve those, but I'm

sacrifice to achieve those, but I'm never going to have a good life unless I

never going to have a good life unless I can take a step back and be like, man,

can take a step back and be like, man, like look what I have right now, even if

like look what I have right now, even if it's not that much. There's a very good

it's not that much. There's a very good book written by a gerontologist named

book written by a gerontologist named Carl Pillmer. He wrote a book called 30

Carl Pillmer. He wrote a book called 30 lessons for living where he interviewed

lessons for living where he interviewed a bunch of elderly Americans who were

a bunch of elderly Americans who were like 90 to 100 years old. And he just

like 90 to 100 years old. And he just said, "Tell me the secret to a good

said, "Tell me the secret to a good life. You've experienced a lot of life

life. You've experienced a lot of life you know." And he has a section where he

you know." And he has a section where he says, "Of the thousand people who we

says, "Of the thousand people who we interviewed, not a single person looking

interviewed, not a single person looking back at their life said,"I wish I made

back at their life said,"I wish I made more money."

more money." >> Not a single person said, "I wish I

>> Not a single person said, "I wish I would picked a career that paid more

would picked a career that paid more money." Not one, but almost every single

money." Not one, but almost every single one of them looking back at their life

one of them looking back at their life said, "I wish I was nicer to people. I

said, "I wish I was nicer to people. I wish I was more helpful to my friends. I

wish I was more helpful to my friends. I wish I spent more time with my family."

wish I spent more time with my family." That was universal. So, if you want to

That was universal. So, if you want to talk about like regrets, what are we

talk about like regrets, what are we most likely what are you and I most

most likely what are you and I most likely to regret when we're 90? It's not

likely to regret when we're 90? It's not making more money. It's spending time

making more money. It's spending time with the people around us that we love

with the people around us that we love and appreciate.

and appreciate. >> I find myself switching between states

>> I find myself switching between states and sometimes it's because of a thought,

and sometimes it's because of a thought, but I find myself switching between

but I find myself switching between these states of being like in a moment

these states of being like in a moment and a in in a mode of gratitude. So last

and a in in a mode of gratitude. So last night I did the Jimmy Fallon show here

night I did the Jimmy Fallon show here in New York. My team were there. It was

in New York. My team were there. It was this really wonderful moment. My, you

this really wonderful moment. My, you know, I woke up this morning feeling

know, I woke up this morning feeling incredibly grateful. Last night I was

incredibly grateful. Last night I was like listening to some of my favorite

like listening to some of my favorite music. I felt incredibly grateful and

music. I felt incredibly grateful and really happy. And then I know that I'm

really happy. And then I know that I'm gonna switch into the lack of

gonna switch into the lack of contentment that Jack's referring to.

contentment that Jack's referring to. >> Happiness is always a five minute

>> Happiness is always a five minute emotion.

emotion. >> Yeah. And and like today I'm I'm back to

>> Yeah. And and like today I'm I'm back to business and it's like build build bill

business and it's like build build bill build. And then I have this moment last

build. And then I have this moment last night where I was I was making the

night where I was I was making the Instagram post to announce that I've

Instagram post to announce that I've been on Jimmy Fallon and I noticed my

been on Jimmy Fallon and I noticed my girlfriend next to me in bed had fallen

girlfriend next to me in bed had fallen asleep. And this thought comes through

asleep. And this thought comes through my head all the time now, probably from

my head all the time now, probably from doing this podcast, which is exactly

doing this podcast, which is exactly what you said, which is

what you said, which is >> I am gonna regret not spooning her and

>> I am gonna regret not spooning her and cuddling her while I have the chance,

cuddling her while I have the chance, especially I think cuz Charlie Kirk had

especially I think cuz Charlie Kirk had just been shot and I'd seen the his

just been shot and I'd seen the his family.

family. Maybe that's why it was front of mind

Maybe that's why it was front of mind for me. And I remember putting the phone

for me. And I remember putting the phone down and thinking

down and thinking >> the thing I'm going to regret is not

>> the thing I'm going to regret is not cuddling her.

cuddling her. >> And so I put the phone down and cuddled

>> And so I put the phone down and cuddled cuddled her. And so, yeah, I I I'm I'm

cuddled her. And so, yeah, I I I'm I'm strange, I think, because I I I flock

strange, I think, because I I I flock between these states and sometimes on an

between these states and sometimes on an hourly basis, sometimes on a daily

hourly basis, sometimes on a daily basis, sometimes on like a

basis, sometimes on like a minute-by-minute basis.

minute-by-minute basis. >> The fact that you're just merely aware

>> The fact that you're just merely aware of those states

of those states >> and the the false story that those

>> and the the false story that those states can tell you puts you way ahead

states can tell you puts you way ahead of most people. I think that I think to

of most people. I think that I think to some extent that there there's a there's

some extent that there there's a there's an interesting book called 10% Happier

an interesting book called 10% Happier and it's about meditation and the point

and it's about meditation and the point the title came from everyone's like oh

the title came from everyone's like oh can meditation change your life and his

can meditation change your life and his point was like it can make you 10%

point was like it can make you 10% happier but like that's pretty cool and

happier but like that's pretty cool and I think that's true for money as well of

I think that's true for money as well of like can it completely change your life

like can it completely change your life and turn you into a much better person

and turn you into a much better person and way happier like I kind of feel like

and way happier like I kind of feel like no but like it can make you 10 maybe 20%

no but like it can make you 10 maybe 20% happier in life I think that's that's

happier in life I think that's that's probably right but just Being aware of

probably right but just Being aware of its limitations like is a huge relief. I

its limitations like is a huge relief. I say I think be like no if you want a

say I think be like no if you want a happier life you're going to have to

happier life you're going to have to find it through your purpose and your

find it through your purpose and your friends and your family and your health

friends and your family and your health and your other philosophies of life that

and your other philosophies of life that have nothing to do with money. It can

have nothing to do with money. It can help. It can make you 10 20 maybe 30%

help. It can make you 10 20 maybe 30% happier but understanding its

happier but understanding its limitations and what it's not going to

limitations and what it's not going to do for you is pretty important.

do for you is pretty important. That lack of contentment I think I

That lack of contentment I think I sometimes feel guilty about because I

sometimes feel guilty about because I sit with so many people especially like

sit with so many people especially like people that are monks and such and they

people that are monks and such and they tell you that wanting will make you

tell you that wanting will make you despair and make you unsatisfied but I

despair and make you unsatisfied but I find myself as being one of those people

find myself as being one of those people that you describe that constantly wants

that you describe that constantly wants to chase and pursue and pursue and I

to chase and pursue and pursue and I think that I do have like am I supposed

think that I do have like am I supposed to feel guilty about that? Is that

to feel guilty about that? Is that something like wrong with me? No, I mean

something like wrong with me? No, I mean I think that's how humans have evolved

I think that's how humans have evolved is to because at the core of it is

is to because at the core of it is competition like where you have that I

competition like where you have that I think drive everyone has that drive is

think drive everyone has that drive is not necessarily because you want to

not necessarily because you want to build another business or build a grow

build another business or build a grow your podcast. It's competition with

your podcast. It's competition with others who might be doing that better

others who might be doing that better than you or who might take your place if

than you or who might take your place if you were to step back that gives you the

you were to step back that gives you the anxiety. I think that's what everything

anxiety. I think that's what everything has as its core. And that's why I like

has as its core. And that's why I like asking the question, if nobody was

asking the question, if nobody was watching, what would you want to do? If

watching, what would you want to do? If nobody was watching your podcast,

nobody was watching your podcast, would you still want to do these

would you still want to do these interviews?

interviews? If nobody could see your house, would

If nobody could see your house, would you still would you buy a house that was

you still would you buy a house that was as big as the one you did? Sometimes the

as big as the one you did? Sometimes the answer is yes. The answer might be yes

answer is yes. The answer might be yes to both of those questions. But it's an

to both of those questions. But it's an important question to ask of are you

important question to ask of are you doing this because it actually fulfills

doing this because it actually fulfills you or because you are competing with

you or because you are competing with other people and you think you're

other people and you think you're gaining their attention by doing these

gaining their attention by doing these things.

things. >> I think everyone who is answering

>> I think everyone who is answering honestly would say for most of the

honestly would say for most of the decisions in their life especially the

decisions in their life especially the big ones the answer is both.

big ones the answer is both. >> Yes. So like choosing Harvard versus the

>> Yes. So like choosing Harvard versus the other university which might have been

other university which might have been better but it's Harvard or buying the

better but it's Harvard or buying the house where you bought it or that watch

house where you bought it or that watch that you bought or the Apple Watch

that you bought or the Apple Watch instead of the whatever

instead of the whatever >> and signaling is important. You can't

>> and signaling is important. You can't just discount it because if you want you

just discount it because if you want you know to attract the right the right

know to attract the right the right friends, the right spouse, the right

friends, the right spouse, the right employers, there's a signaling aspect. A

employers, there's a signaling aspect. A college degree is signaling. It's not

college degree is signaling. It's not the education you obtained. It's you're

the education you obtained. It's you're showing employee you're giving a signal

showing employee you're giving a signal to an employer that for four years I

to an employer that for four years I showed up and did the material and got

showed up and did the material and got the right answers. It's a it's signal

the right answers. It's a it's signal like signaling can be very very

like signaling can be very very important. It's not to discount it but

important. It's not to discount it but there's a right and a wrong kind of

there's a right and a wrong kind of signaling. There's a right kind of like

signaling. There's a right kind of like I'm I'm doing this. I'm dressing in a

I'm I'm doing this. I'm dressing in a way and displaying myself and cutting my

way and displaying myself and cutting my hair in a way that's going to attract

hair in a way that's going to attract the right friends and the right mates,

the right friends and the right mates, the right boyfriend, girlfriend,

the right boyfriend, girlfriend, whatever it might be. There's also

whatever it might be. There's also signaling of like, I'm going to aspire

signaling of like, I'm going to aspire to buy this car that's a huge pain in

to buy this car that's a huge pain in the ass and I actually hate driving, but

the ass and I actually hate driving, but I think strangers are going to look at

I think strangers are going to look at me and pay more attention to me. That's

me and pay more attention to me. That's the wrong kind of signaling.

the wrong kind of signaling. >> I think this is the thing that both

>> I think this is the thing that both sides misunderstand in the debate is

sides misunderstand in the debate is that someone who is a workaholic,

that someone who is a workaholic, believe it or not, can be happy.

believe it or not, can be happy. >> And someone who does no work or works

>> And someone who does no work or works one day a week can be happy.

one day a week can be happy. >> And this is like a really difficult

>> And this is like a really difficult concept for either side to understand

concept for either side to understand about the other side. And that's why as

about the other side. And that's why as well I asked the question about Jack

well I asked the question about Jack like do you think I'm happy? Because

like do you think I'm happy? Because Jack would know that if I'm like if I

Jack would know that if I'm like if I walk out of here and he sees me as this

walk out of here and he sees me as this depressed person who never smiles, never

depressed person who never smiles, never laughs and has no joy in my life,

laughs and has no joy in my life, doesn't have mo, you know, then I would

doesn't have mo, you know, then I would very much fit the stereotype of like the

very much fit the stereotype of like the tortured workaholic or whatever. But

tortured workaholic or whatever. But it's uh yeah, it's surprising. It's

it's uh yeah, it's surprising. It's surprising.

surprising. >> I think we all just want contentment. So

>> I think we all just want contentment. So like we I think we get into a lot of

like we I think we get into a lot of trouble when we chase happiness when

trouble when we chase happiness when what we're actually going for is

what we're actually going for is contentment. We actually just want to

contentment. We actually just want to get to an area where we're like, I'm

get to an area where we're like, I'm good. I'm all set.

good. I'm all set. >> What's the most important thing or the

>> What's the most important thing or the most interesting thing in your book that

most interesting thing in your book that you can remember that we didn't talk

you can remember that we didn't talk about that maybe we should have talked

about that maybe we should have talked about?

about? >> I think the relationship between money

>> I think the relationship between money and kids is is a is an interesting one

and kids is is a is an interesting one where every parent wants to use their

where every parent wants to use their hard work. What money they might have.

hard work. What money they might have. It doesn't have to be a ton. You don't

It doesn't have to be a ton. You don't have to be rich, but they want to use

have to be rich, but they want to use their hard work in order to give their

their hard work in order to give their kids a better life. When a lot of times

kids a better life. When a lot of times what the kid needs to do is learn on

what the kid needs to do is learn on their own. and they're going to learn

their own. and they're going to learn vicariously the values that you have

vicariously the values that you have about money. They're going to learn just

about money. They're going to learn just by watching. You don't need to sit your

by watching. You don't need to sit your kids down and say, "Let me teach you how

kids down and say, "Let me teach you how to budget. Let me teach you how to save.

to budget. Let me teach you how to save. Let me teach you how to invest." They're

Let me teach you how to invest." They're going to figure they're going to watch

going to figure they're going to watch you and figure it out. And so, you have

you and figure it out. And so, you have to just lead by example with those kids.

to just lead by example with those kids. You cannot lecture values into them.

You cannot lecture values into them. They're just going to watch how you

They're just going to watch how you spend, what you value, how you save, how

spend, what you value, how you save, how you judge other people and talk about

you judge other people and talk about other people, and they're going to form

other people, and they're going to form a philosophy of money based off of that.

a philosophy of money based off of that. I often think about money in terms of

I often think about money in terms of like attachment styles. You know, in

like attachment styles. You know, in like dating psychology and romance, they

like dating psychology and romance, they talk about anxious, avoidant, um, and

talk about anxious, avoidant, um, and then the what's the middle person

then the what's the middle person called? They're like a basically

called? They're like a basically neutral. But I think I had an avoidant

neutral. But I think I had an avoidant money attachment style. I think money

money attachment style. I think money was the like the third parent in my

was the like the third parent in my household. And I learned that money

household. And I learned that money causes problems. That it doesn't come

causes problems. That it doesn't come around as much as we would like. That

around as much as we would like. That it's really why we argue in the

it's really why we argue in the household. That it's the reason why I am

household. That it's the reason why I am embarrassed when we pull up in that

embarrassed when we pull up in that terrible car and I try and get my I hope

terrible car and I try and get my I hope the traffic lights change in a certain

the traffic lights change in a certain way so that I can be dropped off further

way so that I can be dropped off further away from the school so no one sees me.

away from the school so no one sees me. Like my relationship with money was

Like my relationship with money was established at such a young age and it

established at such a young age and it was it's almost like a I had like a

was it's almost like a I had like a unhealthy like they say relationship.

unhealthy like they say relationship. Yeah. like an attachment style to it.

Yeah. like an attachment style to it. Um, and I just wonder like is that a

Um, and I just wonder like is that a useful frame to think through that you

useful frame to think through that you have this Yeah. like this romanticesque

have this Yeah. like this romanticesque relationship with this thing and in

relationship with this thing and in order to change that you need to

order to change that you need to unlearn the lessons.

unlearn the lessons. I think a lot of like the lessons that

I think a lot of like the lessons that we learn about money when we're younger

we learn about money when we're younger are because like I said earlier, it's

are because like I said earlier, it's because you when you're young,

because you when you're young, particularly you're a teenager, you're

particularly you're a teenager, you're in your early 20s. Most people in that

in your early 20s. Most people in that situation have very little other skills

situation have very little other skills to offer the world. Yeah.

to offer the world. Yeah. >> Humor, intelligence. Some some people

>> Humor, intelligence. Some some people more than others, but in that situation,

more than others, but in that situation, you're always going to gravitate towards

you're always going to gravitate towards if only I had a nicer car when I was

if only I had a nicer car when I was being dropped off at school, then they

being dropped off at school, then they would pay attention to me. But the truth

would pay attention to me. But the truth is, if you were the funniest kid in

is, if you were the funniest kid in class, it doesn't matter if you're

class, it doesn't matter if you're dropped off in a dull junky car. people

dropped off in a dull junky car. people still respect you because they're like,

still respect you because they're like, "Man, he's a star of the football team."

"Man, he's a star of the football team." That kid's hilarious. Doesn't matter

That kid's hilarious. Doesn't matter what kind of car he's driving. You gain

what kind of car he's driving. You gain your attention and your respect from

your attention and your respect from something else. But if you're not the

something else. But if you're not the star football player, if you're not

star football player, if you're not funny, if you have nothing else to

funny, if you have nothing else to offer, then you seek your admiration

offer, then you seek your admiration through, "Oh, he's dropped off in an

through, "Oh, he's dropped off in an escalade. He's cool." That's where you

escalade. He's cool." That's where you want your attention to come from.

want your attention to come from. >> Is there anything else we should have

>> Is there anything else we should have talked about that we haven't talked

talked about that we haven't talked about, Morgan?

about, Morgan? For people that are trying to get a grip

For people that are trying to get a grip of their life, be happy, make better

of their life, be happy, make better money choices. to me like the common

money choices. to me like the common denominator between all three of those

denominator between all three of those books that you're holding is the idea

books that you're holding is the idea that we talked about quite a bit on all

that we talked about quite a bit on all the shows we've done together which is

the shows we've done together which is that there is no formula for it and

that there is no formula for it and that's very disheartening for a lot of

that's very disheartening for a lot of people to hear. There's no formula for

people to hear. There's no formula for here's what I want you to go out and do,

here's what I want you to go out and do, which is a lot of what people want out

which is a lot of what people want out of content, whether it's a book or

of content, whether it's a book or podcast, like just tell me what to do.

podcast, like just tell me what to do. And the answer is like I I can't because

And the answer is like I I can't because I don't know you and you don't know me.

I don't know you and you don't know me. We're all different. But I think that's

We're all different. But I think that's actually the biggest like relief. That's

actually the biggest like relief. That's actually the best news that you don't

actually the best news that you don't have to follow somebody else's playbook.

have to follow somebody else's playbook. You can do it your own way. And it's

You can do it your own way. And it's easier to do it your own way when you

easier to do it your own way when you come to terms with the fact that nobody

come to terms with the fact that nobody is paying as much attention to you as

is paying as much attention to you as you think they are. You can do it your

you think they are. You can do it your own way free of judgment and other

own way free of judgment and other people, you know, making fun of you or

people, you know, making fun of you or judging how you're living life because

judging how you're living life because they're too busy worrying about

they're too busy worrying about themselves. You have to figure out what

themselves. You have to figure out what works for you and do it. And that's as

works for you and do it. And that's as close as we can get as a formula for

close as we can get as a formula for living a better life.

living a better life. >> It's funny because the book is called

>> It's funny because the book is called The Art of Spending Money, but much of

The Art of Spending Money, but much of the throughine throughout the book is

the throughine throughout the book is really about happiness. And I guess

really about happiness. And I guess that's really what money is for many

that's really what money is for many people,

people, >> a tool tool to become happier.

>> a tool tool to become happier. >> A tool to become happy. No,

>> A tool to become happy. No, >> I remember when I interviewed Mo Gorda,

>> I remember when I interviewed Mo Gorda, he wrote a book um about happiness. He

he wrote a book um about happiness. He said to me a line that's always stayed

said to me a line that's always stayed with me. He said, "Happiness is when

with me. He said, "Happiness is when your expectations of how your life is

your expectations of how your life is supposed to be going are met."

supposed to be going are met." >> Yes.

>> Yes. >> And so with through that lens, I look at

>> And so with through that lens, I look at everything. I look at like the food that

everything. I look at like the food that you're given in a restaurant and if you

you're given in a restaurant and if you expected it to be this and it doesn't

expected it to be this and it doesn't come like that, there's unhappiness.

come like that, there's unhappiness. Even if it's like a fivestar a A5 Wagu

Even if it's like a fivestar a A5 Wagu steak or whatever.

steak or whatever. >> Um and then your relationships, all of

>> Um and then your relationships, all of my arguments I've ever had with my

my arguments I've ever had with my girlfriend, all stem back to unmet

girlfriend, all stem back to unmet expectations.

expectations. >> Expectations. I was saying if if you

>> Expectations. I was saying if if you ride the Amtrak train from like New York

ride the Amtrak train from like New York to Washington DC, on every train they

to Washington DC, on every train they have what's called the quiet car. And in

have what's called the quiet car. And in the quiet car, you're not supposed to

the quiet car, you're not supposed to talk at anything above a whisper. No

talk at anything above a whisper. No phone calls, no talking with your

phone calls, no talking with your friends. It's the quiet car. And people

friends. It's the quiet car. And people go there for peace and quiet and

go there for peace and quiet and serenity. And the irony is that people

serenity. And the irony is that people are so uptight in there because if if

are so uptight in there because if if they hear one peep out of everyone,

they hear one peep out of everyone, they're like, "Would you shut up? We're

they're like, "Would you shut up? We're in the quiet car." They're so frustrated

in the quiet car." They're so frustrated about it because your expectation is,

about it because your expectation is, "I'm going to get quiet." And if it's

"I'm going to get quiet." And if it's anything other than quiet, you lose your

anything other than quiet, you lose your mind. And it's like at that point,

mind. And it's like at that point, that's when your high expectations are

that's when your high expectations are actually working against you.

actually working against you. >> And people are actually calmer in the

>> And people are actually calmer in the normal car where there's chaos all

normal car where there's chaos all around them because that's what they

around them because that's what they expect.

expect. >> So that's the unhappiness cart,

>> So that's the unhappiness cart, >> right? You're like your expectations are

>> right? You're like your expectations are a debt that has to be repaid.

a debt that has to be repaid. >> That gives us a controllable element to

>> That gives us a controllable element to our happiness, doesn't it?

our happiness, doesn't it? >> Your expectations because your

>> Your expectations because your expectations are more in your control

expectations are more in your control >> than things like what the economy or the

>> than things like what the economy or the stock market's going to do next. Like I

stock market's going to do next. Like I have no nobody has any control of what

have no nobody has any control of what the stock market's going to do next. But

the stock market's going to do next. But you have you do have more control over

you have you do have more control over your expectations of how much money do

your expectations of how much money do you expect to make next week? What do

you expect to make next week? What do you expect out of the stock market? What

you expect out of the stock market? What do you expect out of your career? What

do you expect out of your career? What do you expect out of your spouse? Like

do you expect out of your spouse? Like that is more in your control than

that is more in your control than influencing other people's behavior.

influencing other people's behavior. >> And this is probably why all these

>> And this is probably why all these eastern traditions talk about gratitude

eastern traditions talk about gratitude because gratitude is the very

because gratitude is the very realization that expectations I once had

realization that expectations I once had are currently being met.

are currently being met. >> Yeah. And it just even when you start to

>> Yeah. And it just even when you start to think about dreams you once had that you

think about dreams you once had that you are now living out for me it makes me

are now living out for me it makes me feel yeah that feeling of contentment it

feel yeah that feeling of contentment it makes me feel really really good inside.

makes me feel really really good inside. So like even yesterday where I took a

So like even yesterday where I took a moment and I was on the Jimmy Fallon

moment and I was on the Jimmy Fallon show and it's like this crazy thing to

show and it's like this crazy thing to me that I could never have imagined

me that I could never have imagined someone like me doing and I took a

someone like me doing and I took a minute to just like think about how far

minute to just like think about how far beyond my expectations

beyond my expectations this stuff was.

this stuff was. >> Yeah.

>> Yeah. >> It you feel overwhelmingly good about

>> It you feel overwhelmingly good about it. But but the truth was relative if

it. But but the truth was relative if you just thought about yesterday

you just thought about yesterday >> you expected to go on the Jimmy Fallon

>> you expected to go on the Jimmy Fallon show you that that that that met your

show you that that that that met your expectations for the day if you looked

expectations for the day if you looked at your calendar for the day it was I

at your calendar for the day it was I need to go to Jimmy Fallon I need to

need to go to Jimmy Fallon I need to perform I need to say the right things

perform I need to say the right things but over the longer scope that's off the

but over the longer scope that's off the charts of your expectations

charts of your expectations >> and that's the zooming out is where we

>> and that's the zooming out is where we see right

see right >> the gratitude you know fills us up

>> the gratitude you know fills us up >> right and it's it's very difficult to

>> right and it's it's very difficult to say this without sounding ridiculous but

say this without sounding ridiculous but you can even zoom out and be like god

you can even zoom out and be like god I'm so grateful to live in a world with

I'm so grateful to live in a world with antibiotics

antibiotics Advil. Like it sounds crazy because we

Advil. Like it sounds crazy because we expect them. Whenever we take

expect them. Whenever we take penicellin, we're like, "Yeah." Like

penicellin, we're like, "Yeah." Like it's just a thing that exists. But can

it's just a thing that exists. But can you imagine living in a world without

you imagine living in a world without 99% of humanity did before us? Like it's

99% of humanity did before us? Like it's it's impossible to think of like the

it's impossible to think of like the most basic things that we take advantage

most basic things that we take advantage of. But that's where gratitude like you

of. But that's where gratitude like you have to zoom out to become more grateful

have to zoom out to become more grateful to these things. And you're not going to

to these things. And you're not going to be content until you can exercise that

be content until you can exercise that level of gratitude.

level of gratitude. >> You said something earlier which

>> You said something earlier which dubtales into this where you said that

dubtales into this where you said that um at different levels people will

um at different levels people will aspire. You know, the billionaire wants

aspire. You know, the billionaire wants two billion. And I was reading a study

two billion. And I was reading a study many years ago that said roughly all the

many years ago that said roughly all the way up the income wealth spectrum,

way up the income wealth spectrum, people want like three times more than

people want like three times more than they have now is what seems like the

they have now is what seems like the amount that's going to keep you happy.

amount that's going to keep you happy. So if you have $10,000, people are like,

So if you have $10,000, people are like, "Once I have 20, then I'll be good." And

"Once I have 20, then I'll be good." And if you have $20 million, people are

if you have $20 million, people are like, "Ah, 40 seems like the right

like, "Ah, 40 seems like the right amount." It's always two or three times

amount." It's always two or three times what you have.

what you have. >> And that's just the intentional creation

>> And that's just the intentional creation of an expectation gap. It's like

of an expectation gap. It's like creating misery for yourself.

creating misery for yourself. >> Yes. It's this idea that like if only I

>> Yes. It's this idea that like if only I had a little bit more money, then these

had a little bit more money, then these problems that I have, this anxiety, this

problems that I have, this anxiety, this unfilled hole that I have will finally

unfilled hole that I have will finally be filled. And it's a it's a lie we tell

be filled. And it's a it's a lie we tell ourselves, of course.

ourselves, of course. >> And everyone listening right now has

>> And everyone listening right now has that. Everyone has a number in your head

that. Everyone has a number in your head where you think if I got there,

where you think if I got there, >> then it'd be I I have that. You have

>> then it'd be I I have that. You have that. We all do. And if you and I have

that. We all do. And if you and I have met that number, previous versions of

met that number, previous versions of that number, it's the same thing. We're

that number, it's the same thing. We're like, "Okay, but double would be great.

like, "Okay, but double would be great. Double double would be awesome." I met

Double double would be awesome." I met someone the other day whose income,

someone the other day whose income, annual income is almost exactly 2x mine.

annual income is almost exactly 2x mine. We were being very open with you. Gee,

We were being very open with you. Gee, he's a good friend of mine. And the

he's a good friend of mine. And the instant feeling I had, I didn't say

instant feeling I had, I didn't say this, but the instant feeling I had was

this, but the instant feeling I had was like, "Okay, if I had that, everything

like, "Okay, if I had that, everything would be great." And it's it's absurd.

would be great." And it's it's absurd. We do that all day. And I'm sure if my

We do that all day. And I'm sure if my friend met someone whose income was 2x

friend met someone whose income was 2x of his,

of his, >> he would be like, "That's the level.

>> he would be like, "That's the level. That's the one."

That's the one." >> Because your overheads go up, but then

>> Because your overheads go up, but then your competition comparison group also

your competition comparison group also increases. So you're now poorer in a

increases. So you're now poorer in a different class of comparison. Like

different class of comparison. Like Yeah. You're like when you bought that

Yeah. You're like when you bought that new house you just bought.

new house you just bought. >> Yeah.

>> Yeah. >> That must have moved you to a new

>> That must have moved you to a new neighborhood.

neighborhood. >> And there's houses in the neighborhood

>> And there's houses in the neighborhood nicer than ours.

nicer than ours. >> My wife and I talk about them.

>> My wife and I talk about them. >> Really?

>> Really? >> It's absurd. Now I I think I'm I think

>> It's absurd. Now I I think I'm I think because I write about this stuff, I

because I write about this stuff, I think I'm a little bit better at

think I'm a little bit better at catching myself in those moments, but I

catching myself in those moments, but I won't pretend that I don't have those

won't pretend that I don't have those moments. They're almost unavoidable.

moments. They're almost unavoidable. >> What has worked for you? Is there

>> What has worked for you? Is there anything that has actually worked for

anything that has actually worked for you in terms of

you in terms of detaching you from comparison and what

detaching you from comparison and what people think? Is there anything at all

people think? Is there anything at all that's worked?

that's worked? >> I like this term humble bubble. I want

>> I like this term humble bubble. I want to live in a humble bubble. It has to be

to live in a humble bubble. It has to be humble because I don't want to live in a

humble because I don't want to live in a bubble where I I don't have empathy for

bubble where I I don't have empathy for other people. I want to take in the

other people. I want to take in the experience of others so I can try to

experience of others so I can try to understand the world that I live in. But

understand the world that I live in. But I want to live in a bubble in the sense

I want to live in a bubble in the sense of like I want my expectations not to

of like I want my expectations not to leave my own house. Easier said than

leave my own house. Easier said than done. But when my expectations don't

done. But when my expectations don't leave my own house, I'm like, I want

leave my own house, I'm like, I want good health for myself. I want happy

good health for myself. I want happy kids. I want a good marriage. And those

kids. I want a good marriage. And those things don't leave my roof. Once my

things don't leave my roof. Once my expectations leave my bubble, my once

expectations leave my bubble, my once once they expand outside of my house,

once they expand outside of my house, I'm like, "Oh, look at his house. I want

I'm like, "Oh, look at his house. I want It's like I just wanted I always think

It's like I just wanted I always think about that humble bubble of like the

about that humble bubble of like the only thing that's going to make me happy

only thing that's going to make me happy exists underneath my roof." And I know

exists underneath my roof." And I know that. And as soon as my aspirations are

that. And as soon as my aspirations are for are leave that, I know it's just

for are leave that, I know it's just going to spin out of control. I I I try

going to spin out of control. I I I try to think about that a lot. And as I

to think about that a lot. And as I mentioned before, the idea of if nobody

mentioned before, the idea of if nobody was watching, what would I care about?

was watching, what would I care about? That's that's the most powerful exercise

That's that's the most powerful exercise to me. If nobody could see anything that

to me. If nobody could see anything that I was doing, what how would I choose to

I was doing, what how would I choose to live? I've always wanted to counter um

live? I've always wanted to counter um this point with some thinking which is

this point with some thinking which is but if I put myself in a higher status

but if I put myself in a higher status position I'm going to get more

position I'm going to get more opportunities which means more money

opportunities which means more money which is then going to better allow me

which is then going to better allow me to focus on utility. Not that that's how

to focus on utility. Not that that's how it ever plays out for anybody.

it ever plays out for anybody. >> Yeah.

>> Yeah. >> But the thinking is well actually status

>> But the thinking is well actually status does equal revenue.

does equal revenue. >> Yeah.

>> Yeah. >> In a lot of the world

>> In a lot of the world >> and revenue can give you independence.

>> and revenue can give you independence. >> Yeah.

>> Yeah. >> The the I think that's right. I think to

>> The the I think that's right. I think to many extent that's been my goal. How can

many extent that's been my goal. How can I be successful in my career so that I

I be successful in my career so that I can make enough money to not have to

can make enough money to not have to work in the career anymore? Like it's

work in the career anymore? Like it's not that stark, but it's kind of like

not that stark, but it's kind of like that. The flaw in it is that I like

that. The flaw in it is that I like writing. You like podcasting.

writing. You like podcasting. >> And so if we get more successful like I

>> And so if we get more successful like I I'm not I'm not chasing success so that

I'm not I'm not chasing success so that I can stop doing what I'm doing. I just

I can stop doing what I'm doing. I just want to do things that I enjoy.

want to do things that I enjoy. >> We have a closing tradition where the

>> We have a closing tradition where the last leaves a question for the next as

last leaves a question for the next as you know. Um do you have major regrets

you know. Um do you have major regrets in life? Then it says, "They prove no

in life? Then it says, "They prove no real purpose. Do you still have

real purpose. Do you still have regrets?"

regrets?" >> Nothing huge.

>> Nothing huge. There are some regrets. I was thinking

There are some regrets. I was thinking about this the other day. My wife and I,

about this the other day. My wife and I, we have two kids and we're done having

we have two kids and we're done having kids.

kids. >> And there's part of me that's like, what

>> And there's part of me that's like, what would have life been like if we had four

would have life been like if we had four kids, three kids? We if we done that,

kids, three kids? We if we done that, like each both of my kids have given me

like each both of my kids have given me so much meaning and purpose. And I

so much meaning and purpose. And I wonder what a life would have been like

wonder what a life would have been like if I just had fed more. And I I can't

if I just had fed more. And I I can't imagine having just one kid. I can't

imagine having just one kid. I can't imagine just having zero kids, but

imagine just having zero kids, but there's an alternative life in which I

there's an alternative life in which I had four or five kids. And you know,

had four or five kids. And you know, life gets crazy at that point. And

life gets crazy at that point. And that's not a regret, but you realize

that's not a regret, but you realize like once you've kind of closed that

like once you've kind of closed that door on your life, you're like, man,

door on your life, you're like, man, what would have life been if I had done

what would have life been if I had done it if I had done it differently because

it if I had done it differently because it's given me more purpose than anything

it's given me more purpose than anything that I ever could have imagined and I

that I ever could have imagined and I could have had more. And maybe it would

could have had more. And maybe it would have been worse, but I I I wonder what

have been worse, but I I I wonder what that would have been. I think it's not

that would have been. I think it's not until you've we've chosen to close that

until you've we've chosen to close that door, that chapter of our life, that

door, that chapter of our life, that we're like, man, what if we had what if

we're like, man, what if we had what if I had done it a little bit differently.

I had done it a little bit differently. >> Do you wish you had frozen embryos?

>> Do you wish you had frozen embryos? >> No.

>> No. >> Because that would have kept the door

>> Because that would have kept the door open theoretically.

open theoretically. >> Not really, because I think there is a

>> Not really, because I think there is a point of like you want you need youthful

point of like you want you need youthful energy to be a parent. I I I couldn't

energy to be a parent. I I I couldn't imagine having a newborn at 50 or 60. I

imagine having a newborn at 50 or 60. I just I think you need the energy of a

just I think you need the energy of a 30-year-old or 25 or a 30-year-old to do

30-year-old or 25 or a 30-year-old to do that. And it's not a regret because I'm

that. And it's not a regret because I'm very satisfied with the the family that

very satisfied with the the family that I have now. But it's one of those things

I have now. But it's one of those things of like you realize you're there's an

of like you realize you're there's an infinite number of paths your life can

infinite number of paths your life can go down and we could have had no kids.

go down and we could have had no kids. We could have had four kids. We chose

We could have had four kids. We chose this path, but it's one of just one.

this path, but it's one of just one. It's one of multiple paths that it could

It's one of multiple paths that it could have gone down.

have gone down. >> Morgan, thank you. Thank you for doing

>> Morgan, thank you. Thank you for doing what you do. You're my favorite author

what you do. You're my favorite author of all time and I think I've told you

of all time and I think I've told you this before, but it's the way that you

this before, but it's the way that you write. I find it so unbelievably

write. I find it so unbelievably engaging. You the message within your

engaging. You the message within your book is a profound one. All of your

book is a profound one. All of your books are profound ones, but it's

books are profound ones, but it's actually the way that you tell the

actually the way that you tell the stories. And if anybody's listened to

stories. And if anybody's listened to you speak today, they'll understand

you speak today, they'll understand exactly what I mean. Your books are a

exactly what I mean. Your books are a mirror of that. Um, the psychology of

mirror of that. Um, the psychology of money, as I told you before, is the book

money, as I told you before, is the book that changed my financial life. The one

that changed my financial life. The one book my brother, who's a very smart

book my brother, who's a very smart person, told me to re to read. And

person, told me to re to read. And there's no wonder that it's one of the

there's no wonder that it's one of the bestselling books of all time. I think

bestselling books of all time. I think it might be the bestselling book of all

it might be the bestselling book of all time in its category. Um, and your new

time in its category. Um, and your new book, The Art of Spending, continues on

book, The Art of Spending, continues on the same trend. Incredibly accessible,

the same trend. Incredibly accessible, incredibly engaging, incredibly human,

incredibly engaging, incredibly human, but within there, there's a profound

but within there, there's a profound lesson that stands the chance of

lesson that stands the chance of changing our lives for the better. So, I

changing our lives for the better. So, I highly recommend everybody goes and gets

highly recommend everybody goes and gets this book, The Art of Spending Money,

this book, The Art of Spending Money, which comes out tomorrow,

which comes out tomorrow, >> October 7th.

>> October 7th. >> October 7th. So, I'm going to link it

>> October 7th. So, I'm going to link it below for anybody that wants to grab a

below for anybody that wants to grab a copy of this book. book. And if you're

copy of this book. book. And if you're someone that does want a happier life,

someone that does want a happier life, it is a book about spending, but it's

it is a book about spending, but it's also more broadly a book about happiness

also more broadly a book about happiness and regret. And it tells stories that

and regret. And it tells stories that allow you to make better decisions in

allow you to make better decisions in your life. And it's through stories, not

your life. And it's through stories, not through frameworks alone or data that I

through frameworks alone or data that I think we're most influenced. And you can

think we're most influenced. And you can probably relate to this if you're

probably relate to this if you're listening to this. You probably have

listening to this. You probably have heard stats before. You probably know

heard stats before. You probably know you should save. But it's sometimes

you should save. But it's sometimes hearing real stories from real people

hearing real stories from real people that stick into your amygdala and create

that stick into your amygdala and create that behavioral change. And that's

that behavioral change. And that's exactly how Morgan writes. He writes

exactly how Morgan writes. He writes through the context of great stories

through the context of great stories that stand a chance of changing your

that stand a chance of changing your life. So, it's a wonderful, wonderful

life. So, it's a wonderful, wonderful book to read and I highly recommend you

book to read and I highly recommend you do.

do. >> Thanks so much for having me.

>> Thanks so much for having me. >> Thank you so much, Morgan. Hope to see

>> Thank you so much, Morgan. Hope to see you again sometime soon.

you again sometime soon. >> Likewise.

>> Likewise. [Music]

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YouTube Transcript:Financial Expert: Passive Income Is A Scam! Post-Traumatic Broke Syndrome Is Controlling Millions!

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Financial Expert: Passive Income Is A Scam! Post-Traumatic Broke Syndrome Is Controlling Millions!