map things um particles or points in space to something called a state space which is
a complex mathematical structure. Uh and you could interpret these as um the probability of
telling you something about the probability of making certain observations. That that's
that's what the mathematics tells you, right? Um, and the mathematics is quite consistent.
It's nothing to do with Daleism. I've never been persuaded by this argument. Although, you know,
it may well be there interesting connections to be explored. Um, if and when any physicists
become interested in in paristent logic, you know, the sort of mathematics of this stuff,
um, maybe we'll see that kind of application. Who knows? I don't. So, that's first question.
Second question is computers. Look, computers are just devices which manipulate ones and zeros.
That's all ones and zeros. It's not even ones and zeros. It's about a charge flowing, you know,
a current flowing or not. They have no intrinsic connection with logic. Any logic can be massaged
into a form where you're manipulating ones and zeros or or more ma or complex more complex
mathematical structures. So of course you can get a computer to work on or operate any kind of
logic you like. Okay, there are limits because of the halting theorem, but we don't need to go into
that. But generally speaking, um you know, you can get a logic you can get any computer to work
on any logic you damn well like. Yeah, I think this the whole subject is fascinating because it
gets us to the limits of it would change the way we interpret the world. Has it changed your way of
of seeing the world by accepting contradictions? How how has that had like impact in in the
rest of your work and in reading new kinds of philosophy? Well, it's made me more open-minded in
the philosophical climate in which I grew up. Um the thought that if you're giving a philosophical
account of something and it might be motion, it might be free will, it might be realism,
idealism. Um the thought that you could actually countenance an incon a contradictory theory would
have been thought of as crazy for reasons we've talked about. Once one takes styleism to heart uh
one doesn't write off these views in a thoughtless fashion. You might reject the contradictory
theories because contradictory theory might not be the best theory but um it opens the space of
theories you might seriously consider. In that sense you become more open-minded. And so now
I'm I'm more openminded about a lot of things. I will consider theories that most people might not
consider because they're contradictory. I think that's the main change that's the main effect it's
had on my philosophical theorizing. That's good. But being
open-minded is generally good. Um yeah, I think it is. And if we want to, you know,
solve some of the biggest problems, we we need to uh get fresh ideas. We we can't stop, right?
Yeah. Although I don't identify open-minded with being credulous or naive or gullible. Right.
Of course. Of course. You're still critical about ideas. You know, you should open your mind to any
old [ __ ] What I'm saying, you know, um if there are serious intellectual possibilities,
then they should be considered. And of course, you should consider them on the basis of how
good the theories are, what the evidence is, what what problem they're trying to solve,
how they solve them, this kind of thing. So this this is not an argument for kind of naivity
and gullibility. This is an argument for greater intellectual responsibility. I like that. So what
are your plans for the future Graham for for uh the rest of this year uh and next year? You tell
me that you've told me that you like to you you teach different kinds of courses. I like how you
think because many people would consider that as a a massive challenge to because you have to you
know uh understand all the material, practice it, prepare and then teach a lecture. It's a real it's
a real challenge. I like how you think because that keeps you on the bleeding edge on the cutting
edge of uh of of intellectual activity. One could just do one thing for the rest of their lives.
Yeah. Look, I don't find it hard work because I find it fun. Um, and if you find something fun,
then you know, if you think that gardening is fun, it can be physically hard work. But, you know,
phys hard work, right? Well, I don't particularly I don't garden. I'm not that kind of puss. I like
gardening. I like Okay. Well, you know what I mean. For me, doing philosophy and particularly
writing and thinking about issues is fun. So, I don't find it hard work. And what am I going to do
the rest this year? Well, sometimes you never know till it happens. But at the moment I'm finishing
a book on nothingness. One of my plans for this the northern summer is to is to finish that. Next
semester I'm teaching a course on ibsino which I don't know much about. Um but I'm looking forward
to that. Um when I finish this book on nothingness there are other things I want to write. Um I'd
like to do a third edition of my first book on dithism which was called in contradiction.
Um there are a couple of other books that I have in mind which I'll think about but though I mean
um these are some way down the track. Um and always people write to me and say will you
write an essay on X and I'm pretty stupid because I thought oh I don't have anything to say about
that. I think hang on that's kind of interesting you know maybe I'll write about that and before
I know it I've committed myself to write all these bloody essays. Uh I'm I'm writing on
things that you know other people write me to ask not what I want to write. Now that's all
badly. I've learned so much by people forcing me to think about things. So you know English
but but it just means that I I sort of often write about things that I'm asked to write
about and not what I'm really want to think about. Yeah. It's it's it's strange, right? like uh each
each person has their own interests and then the world has their interests and it's kind of a an in
between what you do is it's kind of contingent on on how you how you live your life. I suppose some
people don't do that but that I again I admire that because um who says that our interests are
the correct ones you know maybe there's some some other interests out there that could you know
yeah could be well lots of academics are relatively narrowly
focused they have particular ideas that they have expertise in a certain area and they'll just work
on that and if it were to be like that that's fine but that that's never really appealed to me
I mean as I said philosophy interacts with so many things and there I I just find ideas fascinating.
Um whether or not they're true, that's a different question. But if they're to to understand whether
they're true, you've got to understand them first. Um so when people throw ideas at me,
I I I like to if I had the time think about them. So I'm always open to considering new ideas.
So I would like to close with by asking uh some advice. eventually I want to uh to complete to
make my my my my PhD but I have this this worry that it might drift me away from my
general audience in the sense that sometimes PhDs get you so deep and so because you have
to research a question for four years if I'm not mistaken right and uh I'm I'm inclined to to do my
PhD not on philosophy but on education because I think if we can improve pro the world even a
little bit. It I I think at least it's going to be related to education somehow on the long run,
you know. So I I and I love education. I I I I'm passionate about about teaching and I
I've been thinking about doing it on the history of philosophical education. But the other way,
the other path would be just not do a PhD and do like an another master's and then another master's
on different topics to increase my spectrum, not my depth of of of knowledge. What advice would you
give to me for the next few years in this sense? Look, in some sense, this is a question of what
your values are, what what the things you want to do which you will find valuable. Okay? And
only you can decide that. Okay. However, um let me just sort of comment a little on the
things you've said. Um if you do a doctorate, then you will spend three to six years depending what
country you're in concentrating on something of a very narrow focus and investigating it in depth.
So as far as that goes, you will become tunnel visioned as you know many PhD students are. I
mean you have to do that because you got to write something that's publishable. So you've got to
write something which is going to be accepted in journals and you know the professionalism
will is is not going to accept it unless it's kind of very scholarly in a way. Um so you you
become tunnel visioned in a sense and it's true that some academics never get out of this sort
of tunnel vision but that's not necessary. Um, and you can maintain interests in other things and you
can get a doctorate, do other things at the same time, not become academic or become an academic,
do other things. That that really is how you want to organize your life. But I know plenty of people
who are not tunnel vision. They do their doctorate in one area of philosophy or education and then
when they get an academic job, they spread out to different areas. So if you want to be an academic,
you do need a doctorate. It's the it's the gateway into an academic job. Not that it's
necessarily a sufficient gateway, but if you want a job in academia, then you've got to adopt it.
You have a choice. If you don't, then it's not so necessary, but it can still be a rewarding
intellectual experience where you you really start to think about something very detailed in a
way you probably never done before. and examining something very specific and minutely and that has
its you know that has its own rewards and lessons to be learned. So I mean that's a few thoughts
about doing a doctorate and I wouldn't necessarily worry that if you do a doctorate it will take you
away from what you're doing now namely your sort of um involvement in education. you I I
know plenty of people who uh have a doctorate but do other things as well especially in the current
um times when it's so easy to put stuff online so I know people who you know have a doctorate
in philosophy maybe they're professional philosophers and they do other projects
they might be playwrights they might be educators a lot of philosophers professional philosopher I
know have another kind of side to their life and that's fine of course if you want to do that kind
of thing You must make sure you don't get tunnel visioned when you do a doctorate. But if you're
aware of the danger, that's that's fine, too. Things you must sort of balance. Yeah,
that that's the that's the word, the tunnel vision. That's I think that's what's kind of
scares me a bit. But but as you said, I I could it could take me some time, but I could, you know,
uh get back the get back to the more general broad uh view and and take back other interests.
You you don't even have to give up your other life when you're a graduate student. I mean
you can do other things like make podcasts or and you know I know graduate students who do it
with this dual life and it's perfectly possible. Yeah I would like to integrate it as much as
possible you know like some some doctorates require you to teach as well right perhaps
I could you know integrate it somehow. Yes. Um the systems in North America and the systems in
other countries tend to be a bit different. Uh one difference is that in the in North America
um doctorates tend to be a lot longer five or six years and the first three there's a course work
whereas in a lot of the rest of the world you you you just go in and you write a thesis so that's
what you spend the second half of your time doing in North America that's all you do in say Britain
or Australia or or Germany or France. Um so that's one difference. Uh another difference is that um
If you get into a decent North American program, you'll almost certainly be funded. In the rest of
the world, um, funding does not come automatically with being admitted to the program and it can be
much more difficult to get funding. Yeah. The advantages of the North American system. Um,
and to come back to teaching finally, um, there's a quid proquo for being funded. You got to teach.
So our students at the graduate center go out and teach philosophy in the undergraduate colleges of
the city university. Um and that that's a very very valuable learning experience. One one thing
that your students never know is that when you teach a course you learn more than the students.
Yes, definitely. Yeah. I'm starting my my my history of philosophy course uh is the 34th
time I've done it. It's an 11 11 weeks. So, I've done it. Every time I teach it,
I learn more and more and you know, it's it's fascinating. I I just love it.
And you'll never stop learning as long as your mind doesn't work.
Yeah. Yeah. You you got to stay. So, I'm starting to write a course on epistemology,
a 10-week course on epistemology for the, you know, I always design my courses for
uh general public. And on that sense, the last question I want to ask you is what what advice
would you give to someone that is starting to learn philosophy? They're just beginning and it's
exciting. It's fun, but it's also an octopus as as you mentioned. What would be a good advice for
someone starting to get on that on that path? Look, there there are so many entry paths
into philosophy that it's really hard to generalize and in some sense it depends
on what interests the person. uh you might be interested in epistemology, you might be
interested in political philosophy, you might be interested in mathematics. Who knows? I mean
um all of those will provide an entry point. Um a good general introductory course never goes a
miss. Uh to take a course which sort of introduces you to the various bits of philosophy, some of
the important ideas in philosophy, something that gives you the general lie of the land,
but that never goes a miss. it'll tell you more about what bits interest you. Um, and there are
plenty of courses around like that. You know, you you can do them in um adult education centers. You
can do the kind of thing that you're doing. Uh, you're in a university town. You can maybe sit
in on a course at the university. You can do an undergraduate degree if you want. I mean,
um, so there are lots of opportunities through that. You just got to sort of investigate what's
available where you live. Um, and of course nowadays it doesn't even have to be where you
live. if it can be online. Uh, of course you want a decent teacher. You don't want some fly by night
merchant. If you don't know much about philosophy, that might be it might be difficult to judge that.
Okay. So, that's one thing. Now, almost certainly you're going to be interested in some areas of
philosophy more than others. That's fine. Um, and uh it's not a bad idea to um follow your
interests. I mean what I tell my students when they tell me when they ask me what should I do
I say I say follow your interest because because that's what you'll find most rewarding in the end
your interest will change as you go along that's fine too but if you concentrate on what interests
you now that will you know speed you through the path faster than anything else. Um so when
you know which particular areas of philosophy you engage you uh uh you want to engage at the
moment then you got to find some reading to do um and you know this Oxford series is very short
introduction too very good so um there is um there is actually a general introduction to philosophy
um but there are very short introductions to so many different areas of philosophy like
philosophy, religion or metaphysics or logic um uh and particular philos philosophers like Plato
and Bickenstein and Haidiger and so on. Um as I said I like that collection. Uh they they're very
well written generally. You could thumb through the list of titles, choose something that looks
interesting to you. Uh, I think you probably enjoy, you know, those very short interactions.
Thank you very much, Graham. Thank you. It's been an honor and I hope we do this again,
perhaps in person next time. Do you do you come to to the UK often? You still still have family here?
No. No. My family's in Australia, but I do the UK often. I mean, um, more often than not, it's just
in transit to mainland Europe. Um but sometimes uh I get come to give talks in various places. Uh
um I haven't been to Cambridge for a while. Um I promised to go to Oxford in the beginning of 25
six 26 so I will be back. Okay.
So yeah I mean it's quite impossible and there are there are a lot of things we didn't talk
about today. I mean the question of logic came up and it connection with Daleism and that that's an
important issue. We couldn't obviously couldn't talk about everything but you know we can meet
again to talk about that if you want to. Let's do it. I would love to. I would love
to. Graham, thanks again for your time and for your intelligence and for sharing so
much with us. Uh so as I told you, I'm going to translate everything to Spanish and I'm
going to share it with uh the Latin American world and Spanish speakers everywhere. Okay.
You're welcome. You're welcome. Thank you very much.
Enjoy your new life in Cambridge. Yes, I am. I am. We have to talk
about that as well. You could give me some advice on that, too. We could talk about
Cambridge if you like. It's a kind of strange place. All right. See you. Bye-bye. [Music]
Links in the description. for [Music] Bye-bye.
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