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How the Devil Tried to Become the "Most High God" w/ Fr. Stephen De Young + Lots of Bible Q & A! | Barrel Aged Faith I Cassian King | YouTubeToText
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This content is a discussion about Father Steven D. Young's new book, "Babel: Biography of the Devil," which explores the historical and theological connections between the ancient Near Eastern deity Baal and the figure of Satan/the Devil in scripture, and how these concepts illuminate biblical texts and Christian tradition.
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Well, hey guys. Welcome back to Bearish
Faith. I am so excited to have Father
Steven D. Young here uh on the show.
It's been a long desire to have you on,
Father. So, thank you so much for coming on.
on.
>> Yeah, my pleasure. My pleasure. Good to
be here.
>> And uh you have a new book which I you
kind of just kind of launched it what a
couple weeks ago at the Lord of Spirits
conference. Um yeah, I was sort of
surprised with I mean I had been talking
about it. It had been a plan from the
very beginning. In fact, the first thing
when Ancient Faith told me how happy
they were with the sales of Religion of
the Apostles, the first thing I said
was, "So, you'll publish my bail book
then." [laughter]
Uh, [snorts] and that was originally
just how I referred to it. I just kept
referring to it as the bail book. And
then when it came time to figure out a
title, I said, "Why don't we just call
it the bail book?"
>> There you go. [laughter]
It's it's the bail book. It's very easy
to reference. Yes. And it's been a it
was actually it was awesome to read read
through it and it's fresh in my mind. So
it'll be fun to talk a little bit about
tonight. We'll kind of hop around. If
you guys have questions that you want to
ask about orthodoxy and scripture or
other topics, definitely feel free to
throw those in the chat and we'll we'll
dive into those. Uh but first, let's
talk about a little bit about your book.
Um so I grew up hearing a lot about Baal
and I grew up in a a very devout Baptist
home and you read the Old Testament and
Baal's just kind of like everywhere. and
then you reached the New Testament and
then I felt like I had like amnesia and
just completely forgot about Baal and
you had no re revelence, you know,
wasn't relevant anymore. So, it was
really fun reading your book and being
able to see the dots connected between
the old and the new. Was that one aspect
of the project?
>> Well, yeah. Yeah. And
honestly, at the time, I mean, I'm
pretty sure I'm well older than you, but
when at the time I was growing up,
um there's a significant amount of
information in the book that we didn't
have when I was a kid. Um, so, uh, in
terms of the bail cycle being translated
and being published and being available,
you know, to average people and this
kind of thing. Um, so we had the
references in the Bible and sort of what
you could make from that, but we had
very little archaeologically
and textually about Baal worship outside
the Bible until relatively recently. M
>> um and so yeah, part of a big part of
the book is just now that we have it,
here it is [laughter] right in a
hopefully accessible way and how that
then sheds light on both the Old and New
Testaments, you know, as these these
things that were in the background at
the time the texts were being written,
at the time the events were happening.
Um, but that we had for a time lost a
lot of the details of.
>> Sure. I mean, you know, growing up it's
like you heard of Baal, you knew he was
a false idol, you knew the Israelites
sometimes like worshiped him when they
weren't supposed to. But then you're
making this kind of big claim in the
book that there is this connection. It's
not just called the bail book. It's also
called the biography of the devil. So
>> I don't want you to give the whole book
away, but there is of course this link
that you're developing between, you
know, uh, Satan, the devil, Baal. I
mean, there's even like this debate on
is is Satan and the devil even the same
person, which I've heard, you know,
different debates about that. So, how
are you developing that also in the
book, the connection between those three titles?
titles?
>> Yeah. So, I mean, the the sort of going
uh going academic theory on where this
figure of the devil or Satan comes from
because he sort of shows up in the
second temple period. And so, especially
if you're reading a uh a Protestant
Bible, there's the mention of the Satan
and Job, but as soon as you take any
kind of biblical literature class, the
first thing they point out is how the
Satan and Job is not really the same as
this figure of Satan who emerges later.
And so, you don't really have references
to direct references, at least obvious
references to the devil by that name,
right? or Satan, this kind of thing in
in the Old Testament. And then all of a
sudden in the New Testament,
in the Gospels, right, in St. Paul's
epistles, in the general epistles,
obviously, Revelation, there's all these
mentions of the devil, Satan, right? The
devil and his angels, right? All of
these things. And sort of the going
academic theory,
and the reason it's the going theory is
this. This lets you not think about it
much, right? Is that well uh Persian
religion was dualistic
and the uh the Persian period is when
this figure starts to emerge within
Judaism. Therefore, they're just sort of
grabbing this evil god figure
and that that turns into the devil or
Satan. Yeah. Yeah.
>> Uh the problem with that is number one
that's not actually how Zoroastrianism
works. [laughter] That there's a good
god and an evil god. Um
but that also that's not taking into account
account
the way in which this figure emerges
from a reading of the Hebrew Bible.
Um, and
so a big part of what the book is doing
is tracing the outlines of that figure
through the Old Testament and then into
the New Testament and showing how that
figure as it emerges is
deeply connected to the figure of Baal
uh in the sort of ancient Neareastern
understanding right of of that figure.
Uh so I'm in that way I'm postulating a
different origin for that figure than
right that it emerges from the figure of
Baal and from this figure that's in the
that's in the scriptures. And
this is one of the first this is one of
the first things that sent me down the
road of studying biblical theology when
I was in my undergrad.
um it started me reading like Charles's
Old Testament pseudapigria and this kind
of stuff was I came to the realization that
you know this this whole story I had
mainly from Milton of [laughter]
the devil having this revolution in
heaven and falling with angels to rule
in hell sort of before humanity was
created and all that is not actually in
the Bible anywhere
right And so I started digging into,
well, okay, well, where did where did
demons come? Where did they understand
demons came from? Where did they
understand the devil? And so, in a lot
of ways, a lot of the themes in this
book, and I dealt with them a little bit
in religion of the apostles, too, but a
lot of the themes in this book go all
the way back to that, go all the way
back to me digging into that stuff to say,
say,
what was the actual original
understanding of this? and and
>> Yeah.
Uh, so one interesting point that I I
liked in your book and it's really a big
pattern that you're painting, but it a
point that really kind of stuck out in
my mind was how much Paul's commentary
on Romans 1 and2 seems to really reflect
the the worship in the cult of Baal in
the Old Testament where he's like
talking about, you know, like culture is
spinning out of control. But when we
darken our minds, we reject the creator.
And you have all sorts of dark things
that kind of come out of that. Whether
that be, you know, things like
beastiality and exchanging unnatural
love for others and infant sacrifice and
all those things. It just like I don't
know, it really brought Paul's
commentary in Romans to life when I read
through your book.
>> Yeah. That that's part of the deep
connection that St. Paul sees between,
for example, sexual immorality and idolatry,
idolatry,
right? which seem very separate to us
right in the maybe in the contemporary
world cuz we would say I mean
technically speaking most Hindus for
example we would say are idoltors
but we don't think of them being as
being especially sexually immoral people
right the the connection is not as
obvious but if you understand ancient
neareastern religion and Greek religion
even under Rome
I've I've said before on on Lord of
Spirits that um
when you really get into Greek culture,
Greece was not sort of the first quote
unquote western culture. It was sort of
the last ancient Neareastern culture.
Uh because at a very deep level, it was
derived from Syrian religion which
included Baal, right? Um, and so
that whole religious outlook and system
is is is very connected to what was
going on in the cult of Ba or maybe the
cult of Baal is exhibit A of it. And so
St. Paul could look out at the Greek
religion being practiced in the Roman
Empire in the places where he was going
to minister in Corinth and Ephesus,
right, in these places and see
the under same undergirling, right, as
as the religion that the prophet Elijah
was confronting in in uh ancient Israel,
>> right? Yes. That's a good that's a good
connection with uh Elijah. I mean,
that's sort of the story that I think as
a kid really sticks out with Baal and is
the Elijah story. I mean, that's just
like the one where he is viewed so
powerfully by his people, but then he
doesn't carry out what he's supposed to
do. The God of thunder, if you will,
doesn't doesn't bring any thunder and
lightning bolts. So,
>> yeah. [snorts] Yeah. That's one of the
Sunday school stories I ruin. Um because
if you haven't heard it from me already,
fire from heaven
is the way that ancient eastern texts
>> So
>> it was very it was very much connected
to the storm god idea, right? And that's why
why
>> there not being rain in the land is so
important in the Elijah story. And then
the question of who is able to send fire
from heaven, who controls the thunderbolt,
thunderbolt,
right, is sort of so on point for the
contest between Baal and and Yahweh, the
God of Israel.
>> Right. Right. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, it
made me I don't know if GK Chesterton
talks about this in his book,
Everlasting Man, but he he talks about
the pagan cultures and we think of like
infant sacrifice as like this demonic
thing, which of course it is,
>> but but they uh of course still were
doing it as you point out in your book
because they wanted to have more
children like they wanted to have more
fertility whereas in our culture oftent
times child sacrifice is due to more I
don't know convenience. It's almost kind
of a greater evil than
>> anti-fertility more than Yeah. Yeah.
>> Yeah. Yeah. It was sort of a twisted
twisted version of a first fruits offering,
offering, >> right?
>> right?
>> You know, you offer
>> Yeah. You're not bringing your bread and
your grapes. You're bringing your first
fruit of your kid. >> Yeah.
>> Yeah.
>> And uh but I think CS Lewis and
Chesterton both point this out um that
we're a little bit more twisted than the
pagans in a way.
>> Yeah. um when it comes to that topic,
but but I liked how you pointed that
out. So in the New I looking at the New
Testament, I mean you develop this theme
of like chaos and lawlessness throughout
the book and it takes us to like I don't
know this really of course popular text
in 2 Thessalonians chapter 2 where
everyone's trying to figure out who's
this man of lawlessness,
who's the restrainer,
you know, which leads us to like
Antichrist kind of conversations. But I
liked how you connected Bale with the
with the man of lawlessness and chaos.
What what are your thoughts about this
when it comes to the antichrist and
>> Yeah. Well, yeah. So,
one of the important things with the New
Testament and one of the things that
most causes people to misinterpret the
New Testament is that they think it's
written in Greek. Um, and here's what I
mean by that, [laughter] right? Because
of course it is in Greek technically,
>> right? Uh but [laughter]
but it's Greek written by someone whose
first language is not Greek,
whose first language is not even an
Indo-Uropean language, whose first
language is a Semitic language,
right? Generally speaking, Aramaic,
sometimes Hebrew. Uh, and so in the same way
way
that if you think about you you read a
text written in English by someone whose
first language is not English, there's
going to be pieces of grammar and
phrases and even sort of transliterated
words and things from their first
language that sort of leak over into
English where it's a little awkward in English,
English,
but if you know the language that's
their first language, you're like, "Oh,
I I see I see what they're doing, right? >> Um,
>> Um,
you know, uh, I grew up in Southern
California. People whose first language
is Spanish don't like having s as the
first letter of a word. >> Okay?
>> Okay?
>> Right? So, they'll come up and say, "You
speak Spanish, [laughter]
because in their language, they want to
put an E, right, before before the S,
right?" Um, and that happens all through
New Testament Greek. Um the And so
one of the things we have to ask when we
see a phrase like that that's even a
little cryptic, right? Like man of
lawlessness is is there is there some
Smitic idea
that that is being sort of quote unquote
translated here into Greek in the
author's mind. And in this case there's
a rather obvious one and that is the man
of Balile.
And the phrase the man of Balile
actually appears in Proverbs.
uh but balile and ballel is is one of
the names for the devil that's very
popular in second temple literature uh
it occurs at one point St. Paul uses it
as a name for the devil at one point uh
when he says what uh
what uh community what fellowship has
God with balile [laughter]
>> is that in first Corinthians 10
>> yeah and and that's um and balile comes
from the Aramaic bellyol which literally
means the yokeless one the one without a
yoke right uh so like an ox that is
broken at its yoke and is now like a
wild bull, right? Um so you've got some
bull symbolism there [laughter] which
surrounds Baal. Um you've also got the
word play of Balile and Baal. Um but
also the idea of yokelessness, of lawlessness,
lawlessness,
right? That's that's coming out there.
And the there was an idea of an antichrist
antichrist before
before
the birth of our lord Jesus Christ.
Right? When you read second temple
Jewish literature, there are these anti-
messiah figures,
usually related to Balile, [laughter]
right, in some way, who represent him
and with whom the Messiah has some sort
of final contest.
Um, and so,
uh, if you can sort of pierce through
the the Greek to, [laughter] right, say
Paul's more Aramaic thinking, you could
see the connections there to this bale
figure, this devil figure. And in that
passage, uh, St. Paul says, for example,
that this man is going to do lying
wonders through the energies of Satan.
Let's, he uses energy. [clears throat and laughter]
[clears throat and laughter]
>> Yeah. Um, and so this idea of him being
animated by this figure who's standing,
this devil figure that's standing in the
background. Um, so yeah, we get if
you're into that kind of thing.
>> Sure. Sure. [laughter] Yeah.
>> A copy
>> with the dark energies of Satan. Yeah.
Uh, very interesting. Yeah. I I was just
talking about this with Sarah Hamilton.
We were going through Ephesians chapter
2 together and and and seeing the word
energy there and how it's like there's
both like being energized by the Holy
Spirit but then there's also both dead
in our trespasses but being energized by
the prince of the power of the air and
that whole
>> sort of contrast. It's like whenever you
can see that word instead of just like
workmanship but energy it really kind of
changes your thinking. >> Yeah.
>> Yeah.
>> How this activity is happening. a a
human person in in
the biblical understanding is very
porous in that way,
right? Uh we're created to image God,
but if we choose not to do that, we're
going to end up imaging and channeling
and actualizing something else. It's not
going to just be neutral.
>> Right. Right.
>> Yeah. No, no neutral uh turf. This is
kind of a random question on the side
though. Uh and I think you've commented
on this before, but I can't remember
your answer. And that is who do you
think is the restrainer or the the what
is it? The catacon at
>> of the man of lawlessness.
>> Yeah, we did. Yeah, we did an antichrist
episode of Lord of Spirits where you can
go listen for us talk about this for
but
>> I'm not like some Lord of the Spirits
people who catch literally every single
>> Yeah. I they they're like long haul
truck drivers or [laughter] something.
Um the but
uh or landscapers and they just listen I
don't know
>> but um
>> yeah. So the very short version what
what what I argue for there is that
ultimately the restrainer is uh the
celebration of the Eucharist and
and
we talk there about how the other quote
unquote theories right that you have
from different church fathers how
they're all related to that right so uh
St. John Kristom famously identifies it
as sort of the Christian monarchy, sort
of the emperor as being the restrainer.
But you have to remember how recently
Christianity was legalized.
And so why is the Christian emperor
important? Well, he's the one who
guarantees that the Eucharist can be celebrated.
celebrated. >> Mhm.
>> Mhm.
>> Right. And so also argue that that what
St. Paul is or you'll find this in some
fathers. I'm not just making it up. Uh
that St. Paul is essentially saying that
the Antichrist will emerge and the end
will come after the last liturgy is celebrated.
celebrated.
>> Wow. Okay. >> So,
>> So,
>> yeah, I like uh I like how it's
connected to the lurggical life. That
makes a lot of sense. Uh
when it comes to I got some questions
that are hopping in the chat. We'll
start throwing those out there. But I
want to ask a couple more questions kind
of related to this supernatural themes.
But like Revelation 12, you see the
dragon. Of course, you kind of develop
this theme of like chaos and of course
the dragons associated with chaos and
those kind of primordial beginnings in
the near east. when it comes to like the
dragon, the falling of the stars,
uh the woman, uh the child in your
reading of Revelation 12, how how are
you seeing that connected to Baal?
>> Yeah. So, um
well, there there's there's a question
of if it's directly connected, [laughter]
[laughter] >> right?
>> right?
>> Right. So, because a lot of a lot of folks
folks
uh if they hear me say like what I said
what I said about Milton, right, that
not being in the Bible, uh, and they
want to try to push back on that, um,
they'll say, "Well, what about
Revelation 12, right, that talks about
[laughter] St. Michael hurling the
dragon out of heaven." Well, if you read
St. Andrew of Cesaria's commentary
magisterial for the book of revelation
in a way that no other petristic
commentary is for any other book of the
bible for this reason. His commentary is
the reason the east ultimately accepted
the book of revelation as canonical.
um it had been largely rejected in the
east until his way of reading it
prevailed, right? And once people saw
his way of reading it, they that's when
people were able to sort of
reappropriate it. >> Um
>> Um
>> Tim Laay like adopted his reading.
>> Yeah. [laughter]
Not exactly. Um when he talks about
Revelation 12, so he he he actually
treats a number of elements of the
chapter as being a problem.
as being a theological problem. So for
him it's a theological problem that he
understands the birth of the child to be
the birth of Christ.
And so he says, well, this is presenting
the fall of the devil that will be cast
out of heaven after
the birth of Christ. And he says, and
this is pretty much I mean it's
translated into English, so it's as much
of a direct quote as you can get via
translation. He says, "We must accept
what all the fathers taught that after
the creation of the world, the devil
fell through envy."
So he's placing the fall of the devil in
the book of Genesis after the creation
of the world. And so he's saying,
"Therefore, this can't be talking about that,
that,
right? This has to be talking about
something different." And
so, uh,
he talks about when Christ sent the 70
out to cast out demons and work healings
in in the gospels. And when they came
back, they rejoiced that even the
demons, you know, responded to their
authority. And
Christ says to them,"I saw Satan fall
like lightning from heaven." And St.
Andrew understands that as being not
Christ reminiscing about something that
happened in primordial time, but as
Christ saying he saw that happen through
their ministry,
which was an extension of his own
ministry. And so St. Andrew presents
that as being sort of a a another fall
And then St. Andrew goes into there's a
there's a Greek phrase there that could
be read two two ways. He talks about the
dragon and you could read it as the
dragon who is the devil and Satan
or you could read it as the dragon who
is the devil and Satan, [laughter]
right? So you could read it as here's a
whole bunch of names for this one figure
or you could read it as here are these
two figures
and so this could be a situation where
you have one figure who sort of falls
twice in two different senses
or you could have two different figures
who each fall once and what St. Andrew
St. Andrew's position is that this is
one figure but that he falls in two
different senses.
>> Okay. So, he has this fall in Genesis 3
where he's the serpent and the dragon is
cursed and cast into the underworld.
Uh, but then we still see in Job the
Satan show up and accuse the brethren.
We have the inner
uh the the second temple Jewish
traditions regarding St. Michael and
Satan that get reflected. For example,
St. Jude references them contesting over
the body of Moses. >> Right?
>> Right?
>> This image is very common in second
temple Judaism of when someone dies, St.
Michael, who was the the sort of patron
saint, the patron angel of Israel, would
sort of defend the person before God's
judgment. And Satan would accuse the person
person
before God's judgment. And so the idea
from St. Andrew is that what Christ is
talking about when he says he's f saw
Satan fall from heaven is that now Satan
can no longer accuse the brethren.
The accuser of the brethren is one of
the things that he gets called u and so
now he's no longer able to bring charges against
against
God's people and this is reflected in
some of St. Paul's language, right? Who
can bring a charge against
the Lord's elect, right? That now no one
can through the ministry of Christ. He's
sort of been silenced. And so he's sort
of even more fallen [laughter] and now
than he was before
>> like the the he's been bound like the
strong man's been bound as Christ will
will speak of. Yeah.
When Paul talks about this in Ephesians
2, he con comparing um the devil or
Satan to the prince of the power of the air.
air. >> Yeah.
>> Yeah.
>> Is he imagining that as like past tense
because like you were enslaved by the
prince of the power of the air. Is he
still imagining him being in the aerial
realm or in the air or still but or has
he been like
>> fallen? Well, so this is
>> uh what he's referring to in the air
there is the first heaven,
>> which from our p modern perspective
would be the sky,
right? Um there are it's not just seven.
There's not a sort of a purely canonical
number of heavens. In second temple
Jewish literature, in apocalyptic
literature, it differs from text to
text. It's often seven because of the
significance of the number seven, but
sometimes there's only three, sometimes
there's as many as nine. Um, and so that
can vary a little bit, but the first
heaven is the sky. And so
the idea of him being the prince in the
power of the air is that he is now
limited to,
right, he is shut out of anything above that,
that,
right? So he's sort of here. Um and
that's why he can be referred to as the
god small G of the present age. >> Right.
>> Right.
>> Right. Or of this of this present world.
Um because
>> quarantined quarantined if you will. Yes.
Yes.
>> He's sort of down here in this lowest. Right.
Right. >> Yeah.
>> Yeah.
>> Sphere. But that's where we are too.
>> So [laughter]
>> yeah, C. Lewis kind of does this a
little bit with uh Out of the Silent
Planet where he's kind of quarantined to
this silent
>> planet that cannot commune
>> with the rest of the world in a way. >> Yeah,
>> Yeah,
>> that's an interesting connection.
>> Very cool. Well, the good news is that
of course we never want to talk about
the devil or Satan without talking about
his defeat and end. So that will that
will come and uh your book does a good
job connecting that with baptism and the
sacraments and the liturgy. And so it
was it's fun to to hear those
connections. Um what are your uh hopes
for the book with as far as impacting
like modern culture like the moment that
we're in in 2025?
>> Yeah. Well, I mean there's several
levels. I hope it I hope it helps
flesh out people's understanding first
of all of the scriptures, right? By
giving that background. Um
something we haven't talked about. I
mean, it it's when you're talking about
a historical text like Jezebel and the
prophets of Baal and and the prophet
Elijah and that kind of thing, it's good
to have that texture and that historical
background and it reveals things. But I
think some of the more powerful stuff,
for example, is the places where I talk
about the book where the Psalms, for example,
example,
are sort of appropriating and
changing and sometimes inverting,
[laughter] right? the the the actual
Baal hymns and texts, right? And sort of
and those kind of things
>> like the liturgy of Baal, if you will.
>> Yeah. Right. Yeah. Yeah. >> And
>> And um
um
it illuminates there's a number of
places where it illuminates
elements of
um of our holy tradition because
um holy tradition is essentially and I
mean Florovski said this it's
essentially a way of reading the
scriptures right it's a [laughter] way
of right um And it's not always obvious
to us exactly how that works,
right? Um, sometimes people in response
to some of my my work will be like,
well, I mean, yeah, it's cool to have
all this background information from the
ancient near east and the Greek world
and the Roman world and help understand
the Bible, but like how is a normal
person supposed to understand it without
all of that, right? Well, I try to give
you some of that, number one, but
>> but number two, if you just listen to
the hymns of the church
and participate in the liturgy and
accept the teaching of the church,
you've essentially got all this. Now, if
you want to lift up the hood and see how
she runs, right?
right? >> Right.
>> Right. >> Right.
>> Right.
>> For those that for those that need to
>> Yeah. Yeah.
>> or are interested to Right. Or or Right.
Uh that's a little bit of what I'm
doing, right? And so you can kind of see
how you know, oh that's why St. John
Christom or St. Serial of Alexandria or
fill in the blank St. John Damascus,
that's why he reads that text that way.
>> Right? And we don't have to just play
this allegory card, right? [laughter]
Like, oh, there's this text and then a
miracle occurs and we get this
interpretation. um it's not always
obvious to us, but there is a way that
they were reading [laughter] and they
were understanding it that makes sense.
And so that kind of gets unveiled
and as we start to understand that that
makes us better readers of scripture in general.
general.
Um I also I also think it's important
though that that
we have an awareness of the figure of
the devil, right? You can kind of heir
in two ways, right? You can you can go
on the one side and just sort of,
you know, I believe in God if you ask
me. Yeah, I guess I believe in angels
because they show up in the Bible, but
demons and ghouls and goblins and ghosts
I just don't want to deal with that. So,
there's that side which is dangerous,
right? because then you're like wa walk
walking through a spiritual battlefield
with a blindfold on pretending nothing's happening.
happening. >> Um
>> Um
or the other the other extreme where you
get kind of obsessed in in a weird way
uh and kind of think the devil's
everywhere. I'm I'm older. I grew up I'm
Gen X. I grew up during the Satanic
Panic where the devil was literally
everywhere, right? that there's
>> there there's an infamous book from back
then in the 80s called Terror in the Toy Box
Box
>> that went through and explained why like
He-Man was satanic, smurfs were demons.
Like I'm not exaggerating. Like every
everything your kids like is evil and
and satanic, right? Um and a ploy of the
devil to subvert your children into
worshiping him and joining a cult.
>> Yeah. I mean, I was pretty young when
the Smurfs were out. I I was born in 85.
>> Yeah. And uh but I do remember I mean I
grew up in a pretty conservative
household, but I do remember there being
like this very very suspicious thing
about Smurfs that I didn't understand as
a kid. So now you're filling in the blanks.
blanks.
>> Yeah. Yeah. So there there was I mean
just everything everything I mean they
even found a way to go after G.I. Joe.
And you'd think just being patriotic
you'd like G.I. Joe, you know. Um but
yeah, and that isn't fruitful, right?
because all that's doing is causing you
and your children to live in fear of the devil.
devil. >> Right?
>> Right?
>> So [laughter] being being aware of the
existence of the devil and who he is and
the danger he represents spiritually is
important, but you know, you also have
the gospel, right? So we don't live in
fear of him, right, anymore,
>> right? Well, I I think you're touching
on a very important point. Um, I'm a
father with seven kids and it can be a
tricky balance, right? Particularly when
you have different ages, a
three-year-old versus a 13-year-old when
you're trying to talk about the kingdom
of darkness. Um, because you don't want
to petrify them. Uh, you don't want them
to not go to sleep at night, but at the
same time, you don't want them to be
like, you know, reductionist
materialists who who don't see a
spiritual reality that's happening, you
know, a cosmic battle. So
>> yeah. Yeah. There there there there are
dragons, but you can defeat them.
>> Yes. [laughter]
>> Yes. Let Let them hear of dragons, but
also let them hear of knights who can
defeat them.
>> Yeah. Yeah. Well said. Well said. So,
we've got some questions hopping in here
in the chat. Since I'm just taking up
all the questions, I think we should
probably see what people have to say.
There's a lot going on in here. I'll
I'll start with one here.
Um, this is an honor. I think what is
tomorrow? Reformation day? I've been hearing.
hearing.
>> Yes, it is.
>> So, maybe maybe they can connect this to
Reformation Day.
>> Father Luther was always throwing things
at the devil. So,
>> well, there you go. [laughter] We've
connected the devil and Luther and
Reformation Day and tradition and
Young. Young. Young. Young. Young.
Young. Young. Young. Young. Young. Could
you explain the Orthodox idea of
scripture in tradition compared to
Protestant and Catholicism ideas of
interpretation? Thank you for the chat.
>> Yeah. So, uh passage I go to is in St.
John's gospel.
If you understand the Torah, you know
that you establish the truth of
something by two witnesses. And
And
Christ in uh in his final discourse to
the the disciples, which begins in John
17 and then runs for several chapters, um
um
he uh he says to them, "You are my witnesses,
witnesses,
the apostles themselves,
and the Holy Spirit who I will who I
will send to you."
And so when you look at the earliest
church fathers and Christian writers,
end of the first century, second century,
century,
a phrase that recurs to refer to the New
Testament is the memoirs of the apostles.
apostles.
So they're gone, but here is their
testimony. Their w they're one of the
witnesses. There's their testimony. So
the scriptures,
that's one testimony. That's one
witness. The other witness is the Holy Spirit.
Spirit. And
And
for the Orthodox church,
uh the Holy Spirit is not a subjective thing.
thing.
The Holy Spirit tends to be spoken of,
especially in a lot of evangelical
circles, in these very subjective terms.
Right? You have 12 people at a Bible
study, the Holy Spirit led them to
conclude 12 different things about the
same passage, right?
Um, [laughter] that's and so I'm saying
it's just subjective. I'm not saying
they're all lying. It's just this very
subjective thing. Whereas in the
Orthodox Church, the life and the
working of the Holy Spirit is objective.
We see it reflected in history,
right? So that includes the writings of
holy men and women who lived before us.
That includes the councils of the church
when the church gathered to decide
issues. The Holy Spirit is working
through all of this and that kind of
emerges over time. And that is then the
second the second witness.
And what's important again if you
understand the Torah and so you
understand what Christ is saying when he
says these are the two witnesses. For
the two witnesses testimony to be valid,
right? That's what makes it valid is you
have two witnesses who say the same
thing. And you can see this in like if
you look at Christ's trial, remember? I
think it's in St. Mark's gospel where
it's described this way where they keep
bringing in people to testify against
him, right? But no two people tell the
same. They're all accusing him of
things, but no two people tell the same
story until finally they find two people
who say he was going to destroy the
temple, rebuild it in three days.
They're like, "Ah, okay. We got this
one. We got two people who will say
this." So you have to have the same
story, right?
So for us, the content of holy tradition
and the content of the scriptures is the
same. Spoilers, it's Christ himself.
They're both witnesses and testimony to
who Christ is. >> Mhm.
>> Mhm. >> Um,
>> Um,
and so that's our understanding. And so
if you're going to read and interpret
the scriptures and you're going to say,
"Well, the scriptures say X." You're
saying witness one says X.
But witness two says why. Then you're misinterpreting
misinterpreting
witness one, right? Because they give
the same testimony, right? And vice
versa, right? If you're going to say
throw a bunch of quotes from the church
fathers out and say, "Oh, the fathers
are teaching XYZ,
but that doesn't match, right? That
contradicts what what scripture says." Then
Then
we've got a problem, right? So there has
to be this harmony of testimony.
>> Um, and the way that differs is in in Protestantism.
Protestantism. Um,
Um,
and I'll talk about classical
Protestantism because you get all kinds
of things called solos scriptura in
evangelicalism as a whole. So I'm
talking about like Luther, Calvin, right?
right?
>> 17th century
>> dogmatic theologians, right?
>> Not solo.
>> Yeah. [laughter] Um
Um
there is this and it's a very early
modern idea
that has a basic hermeneutical problem
which is that uh
they posit the scriptures themselves
themselves
as not just as being authoritative but
as being able to exercise authority
and being able to communicate in and of themselves.
themselves.
And the hermeneutic problem is that
would require me to be able to access
the contents of the scriptures
apart from me actually sitting down and
So when they talk about the scriptures,
they talk about the scriptures in these
very objective terms,
right? So they will say things like,
"Well, if the church teaches X, well,
Well, okay. But what I'm really doing
when I do that is I'm comparing it to my
reading of scripture
because that's the only access I have to scripture,
scripture, >> right?
>> right? And
And
as someone who's no longer an early
modern right person, we understand that
when I sit down and open up the
scriptures and read them, even if I'm
reading them in the original languages,
which I am want to do, I'm not a first
language Greek speaker or Hebrew speaker,
speaker,
right? So I was taught those languages,
[laughter] right? I'm using lexica that
were written by people, right? Um, all
of that comes into it. My own personal
beliefs and understandings of things and
theological bents come into that how I'm
going to read and interpret it. Um, and
then I'm also human.
So, I get distracted,
[laughter] right?
I have physical unease and ailments. I
have, right? And all of those things
affect how I interpret and understand
many of those classical Protestant
claims require
me to have some kind of objective way of
getting access to the contents of
scripture to be able to compare it to
someone's reading
when the reality is all I can do is
compare someone else's reading to my own.
And so what ends up happening in
Protestant circles is everybody's own reading
reading
becomes this is what the Bible says, [laughter]
[laughter] >> right?
>> right?
>> My reading is what the Bible says and I
compare your reading to that.
>> Um, and this is not like I'm not saying
this about dumb people, right? Like Wes
Huff just did this publicly
>> who has the same kind of PhD I do, right?
right?
But on on two or three different topics
said, "Well, this is just what the Bible
says. This is just what it is if you
just read it." And everyone, he
literally said, "Everyone who disagrees
with it is arguing from their
>> And he's just reading the Bible, right?
It's like
self-awareness not detected. Right. >> Yeah.
>> Yeah.
>> Like [laughter] that's right. So that's
that's I think the difference and the
problem. Right. So so in the Orthodox
church I may read the scriptures and I
may come to some kind of understanding
but I have an authoritative way of
reading it to compare that to. And if I
go and look at the way the fathers read
it and none of them read it that way and
they all read it differently, then I'm wrong.
wrong. >> Yeah.
>> Yeah.
>> De facto. [laughter]
Right now, our Protestant friends would
not say, "No, they're smarter than the
church fathers.
That's why they argue, oh, no, no, no.
I'm comparing it. I'm comparing the what
the fathers say to what the Bible says,
>> right? Even though, as we know, that's
not actually what's happening, >> right?
>> right?
>> The difference with Roman Catholicism,
I'll try to do this more quickly. [laughter]
[laughter]
I'm not prone to pith uh as you
um but the main difference with Roman
Catholicism is that often tradition
sometimes with the word oral in front of
it, right? Oral tradition
uh tends to have tends to be content.
They tend to talk about it in a way
there are certain and this is related to
the way western theology works, right?
There are there's propositional content,
revealed content about God that is
contained in the scriptures, written in
the scriptures. And then there's other
content also handed down from the apostles
apostles
that is not written in the scriptures,
but that has been handed down within the church.
church.
And that's what tradition is. And so
that's why they tend to speak of these
multiple sources of authority,
right? Whereas um in the Orthodox
church, there's ultimately one
authority, that's Christ.
We have these two witnesses to who
Christ is
that agree with each other, [laughter]
right? And so we see them as saying the
same thing, not as sort of supplemental
to each other,
>> which the Roman Roman Catholic view is
sometimes more in the nature of that.
And then they have the teaching
magisterium to sort of adjudicate right
what is and isn't
within the tradition.
>> Yes. With lots and lots of footnotes.
Yes. [laughter] >> Yes.
>> Yes.
>> Spent a lot of time in those magisterial
footnotes. Um let's see here. We got
another question here. Uh Father Steven,
could you explain who Uriel is and his
origin in Israelite religion? Do any of
the fathers write about him? Thank you
for your work. That the archangel.
>> Yes, Uriel is the the archangel. He is
the fourth most popular archangel. Um
Um
so yeah, when you see lists of the seven archangels,
archangels,
uh you always have St. Michael, you
always have St. Gabriel, you always have
St. Raphael, you pretty much always have
St. Uriel, and then the other three,
depending on who you're reading,
uh will be different.
And that's that that's everyone from or
everywhere from the book of Enoch, first
Eno in the 3rd century BC to uh St.
Gregory theist,
Pope St. Gregory the Great at the end of
the 6th century AD. So there's a good
almost a thousand years [laughter] of of
time of people talking naming the seven
archangels. But Uriel's pretty much
always there. His name means the fire of
God. Um there are they're rare but there
are orthodox icons of Uriel.
Um he the the closest he appears to the Bible
Bible
uh is and you'll see why I'm saying this
in a second is in uh fourth Ezra
which is in an appendix of the Savonic Bible.
Bible.
I have yet to find anyone who could
define for me the exact level of
authority of an appendix. >> [laughter]
>> [laughter]
>> um it clearly has some more authority
over something that's not
at all right right
>> in the Old Testament but by being an
independence that seems to mean it's not
of the same authority as um the other
the other books that are included in the
general run of the Old Testament. Um so
he appears in fourth Ezra. He he is one
of the archangels in uh the book of
Enoch. He's one of the ones that say
Gregory names. uh but that's the closest
he comes to sort of the biblical text uh
himself. So he is mentioned by the
fathers when they're talking about the
archangels. He's mentioned in the
context of traditions from uh fourth
Ezra. I had a journal article published
a while back about this actually um show
up in odd places
right one of them is St. Jerome's uh
introduction to the to his translate
Latin translation to the penetuk. Um and
that's what the journal article is
about. Um because uh basically short
version of the journal article St. makes
this reference to um
um
he's talking about the penetuk and he
says whether you think Moses wrote it
or Ezra and then there's a Latin word [laughter]
[laughter]
and that's often translated as edited
or you think Ezra edited it right XYZ is
the case and of course modern liberal
scholars have seized on this to say oh
Right? Like St. Jerome didn't think
Moses wrote the penetuk, right? Um, but
that's not at all what he's saying. He's
referring to this tradition. So, fourth
Ezra, one of the things that happens in
fourth Ezra is that all of the copies of
the Hebrew Bible were destroyed by the
Babylonians when they burnt the temple down.
down.
And so
the people are now back in what is going
to be the Persian province of Judea. And
Ezra has this vision after speaking to
Uriel. Uh has this vision go kind of
goes into a trance and when he comes out
of it, he has reproduced letter for letter
letter
the entire all of the books of the
Hebrew Bible.
So they're all restored.
And so the article I argue that's the
tradition he's referring to and rest
restored is a better translation of the
Latin word there. Um it's instout but [laughter]
[laughter]
that restored is a better translation
there. Um but so yeah, Uriel Uriel pops
up pops up all over the place. There are
orthodox icons of him uh out there
though they're a bit rare. So, he is a I
guess quote unquote canonical archangel.
>> Well, there you go. Question answered.
That's good to know. I' I've actually
thought about a little bit that about
that in the past. Like you you hear
about the big three a lot and then I
remember running into the fourth. So,
that's that's good to hear. >> Yeah.
>> Yeah.
>> Uh am I correct? Oh, this is evolution
question just now seeing this. Okay.
>> Uh am I correct in understanding that
death and decay did not come into the
world until Adam sinned? And if that is
the case, is it acceptable to believe in
evolution? Always those it's a fun question.
question.
>> So, well, I'll I'll address the first
part first. So, um
um
it is clear and key to the scriptures
themselves that human death does not
exist before
Um,
in general,
most of the fathers
thought that Adam sin brought death into
the rest of creation. Also,
decay may be pushing it too far
because there you get into like plant
life and death, >> right?
>> right?
>> Um, but
>> there would be no fall. There would be
no leaves turning uh
>> gold and falling. Now, there is one
theory. I'm trying to remember which
church father it was. It was a
significant church father
who believed that the de the fall of the devil
devil
Not to humanity but to the rest to the
rest of creation. So there are some sort
of odd but that's I'm not saying that
means you should believe that. I'm
saying [laughter] >> right,
>> right,
>> you know, uh the the the idea of a
consensus patrum is always a little bit
of a fudge. Uh [laughter]
um rather than talking about like a
consensus of the fathers, we should
really be talking more historically,
more over time, right? That that over
time, this is the view that prevailed
within the church,
>> right? At some certain point in time,
yes, you can find this or that father
with the odd idea, but that usually has
dropped out over the course of the
centuries, right? And it doesn't behoove
you to go back and try and revive it.
Um, it is not honoring that father to do
so. Um,
so in terms of believing in evolution is
acceptable. So part of part of
we have to interrogate that question a
little bit. [laughter]
Um, sometimes people talk about,
especially when they're coming to the
Orthodox church, am I allowed to believe
this or that and that's kind of a
problematic way of talking?
Um, it's a very postmodern way of
talking, frankly, right? Because what
that question assumes is either there
isn't a truth on this topic or we don't
know it.
We don't or can't know it. And
therefore, since we we can't know for
sure or there is no truth, there's sort
of a range of acceptable beliefs and you
can just kind of pick the one you like
the best, I guess. And what limits those
beliefs is, and this is where it gets
really postmodern, some kind of power
that says these are acceptable and those
are not.
Sort of just by force.
>> And then that's assumed to be sort of
the church. And that's the way
postmodern folks think the church works.
You could see this all listen to any
atheist, right? Critiquing the church is
all about power and control and right,
they just half remembered Fuko that they
read in their undergrad. Um,
but uh, of course that's not how we look
at things, right? So
the question with evolution or anything
else should be like, is it true? If it
if it's true, then yeah, it's good for
you to believe things that are true. If
it's not true, then it's bad for you to
believe things that aren't true, right?
Um, but now we have to interrogate the
word believe a little bit,
right? Because
this is an evangelical thing, right? Uh,
we are not saved by holding the correct
opinions on a series of issues.
Right? We we're we're presented with
various images of the final judgment in
scripture. None of them is like a
theology test,
right? And guess what? If it was a
theology test, the devil would get 100%. [laughter]
[laughter]
Like he knows all these things are true,
right? So, um the word that's usually
translated believe in Greek is the same
word that's usually translated faith.
And it is better translated faithfulness.
faithfulness.
>> Yeah. That comes through in this book. [laughter]
[laughter]
>> Little little advertisement. Yeah. >> Yeah.
>> Yeah.
>> So when we think about what it means
biblically or in the church to believe
something, it's not just, oh well, I
think this is true,
right? Um, so I don't care if you think
evolution is true.
>> As a priest, I don't care. Now, if I ask
you what that means, if you say to me, I
believe in evolution, and I say to you,
what does that mean? And you say, well,
I believe it's survival of the fittest.
You got to go out there and get what you
can. If you're smarter than somebody,
use it to your advantage. If you're
stronger than somebody, use it to your
advantage. If you're right, you tell me
that, now I'm concerned. [laughter] Now,
we have a problem.
>> You know, I have a theology of
evolution. That's [laughter]
>> Yeah. Yeah. That means you believe it.
you're you're living your life
faithfully to that idea
in fidelity to that idea. That's a huge problem.
problem.
That's going to make it very very
difficult at minimum for you to find salvation.
salvation. >> Yeah.
>> Yeah.
>> Right. But so it's not just about, you
know, I oh I accept this idea, right? It's
It's
>> what are you living your life in
accordance with? So, if somebody comes
to me and they're just kind of a vaguely
half-secular person and they're like,
"Oh, yeah, I believe in evolution." But
you look at their life and they've
devoted their life to helping those in
need and the poor and showing the love
of Christ to people.
I'm not I'm not super worried about the
fact that [laughter] that person has a
view about what may or may not have
happened hundreds of millions of years ago.
ago. >> Yeah.
>> Yeah.
>> That may not have happened at all. Right.
Right.
>> Yeah. I'm I'm much more at peace about
that sort of question with the mystery
box now. Growing up I was not at peace
with it. I grew up on the Ken Ham big,
you know, the ark down in Kentucky. I
live in Indiana. And then uh and so I
kind of overreacted against that
question in college. And so now I'm just
kind of like at peace at this kind of
mystery. Um I talk about it with my kids
a little bit only because in Indiana we
have a lot of coral reefs in the fossil
record. It's like, well, where did these
coral reefs come from?
>> And uh
>> and it's because Indiana had coral reefs
growing on it when it was in a shallow
ocean. So, it's like, well, how did all
this happen?
>> It's okay to have some mystery with all
these things.
>> Yeah. Yeah.
>> Um, well, I just had a question. Oh,
here it is. And this this pertains
because we're now on the St. Paul topic
a little bit since you mentioned
faithfulness. Uh, what is your
understanding of the common perspective
in biblical studies that St. Paul
expected Christ to return in his lifetime.
lifetime.
I think the problem is
that uh not that it's clear that St.
Paul thought that. But that biblical
scholars think that that's not a basic
teaching of Christianity
that we all believe that Christ could
return at any moment.
>> Right. e every generation of Christians
has thought and and I don't just mean in
sort of a vague sense like oh he might
show up like if you go through church
history and you're looking for this
right you find just about every
generation of the church considering
what was happening in their day to be
the end times.
>> Yeah. For sure.
>> The Muslims are coming and destroying
Christryendom. This is the end times,
[laughter] right?
>> At least the end of our world. Yeah.
>> Yes. the the Western Roman Empire is
collapsing, right? These are the end
times, right?
Like it's the year 1000. That's a nice
round number, right? People all over
Europe sold everything they had and went
on pilgrimages to welcome Christ when he
returned because clearly
>> 10,00. [laughter] >> Yeah.
>> Yeah. >> Um
>> Um
>> well, I was looking up at the sky the
year 2000. I was looking up at the sky
just kind of waiting for him to come
back any second to prevent Y2K from
happening. Yeah. Yeah. That is that is probably
probably
>> this is a phrase you probably didn't
think you'd hear today. Uh this is this
is my favorite scene ever from South
Park. [laughter] >> Um
>> Um
you probably at that age were not
watching South Park. I was
>> I wasn't allowed to watch a lot of things.
things.
>> Yeah, I was older and living my, you
know, this is before I was a Christian.
Um, so [laughter]
but they they did they did an episode at
the end of 1999
where at the beginning of the episode
there's all these news reporters outside
this house and the guy comes on and
says, "We're all here outside Jesus
house to find out what he's going to do
for New Year's Eve, the year 2000." [laughter]
[laughter]
He sort of pokes his head out and says,
"Can I can I help you people?" And
they're like, "Yeah, what are you going
to do?" He's, "You got you're do got to
do something big." and he's like, "I
do." And they're like, "Yeah, the Bible
says so." And he's like, "It does." [laughter]
So, yeah, that's that's one of my favorite bits just because Yeah. But
favorite bits just because Yeah. But yeah, every every generation
yeah, every every generation has believed that. That's that's part of
has believed that. That's that's part of Christianity. We're supposed to be
Christianity. We're supposed to be watching and praying
watching and praying for Christ to come.
for Christ to come. >> Yeah. No, I I mean I even have like a
>> Yeah. No, I I mean I even have like a literal a liberal Protestant professor
literal a liberal Protestant professor friend who's who's thrown that at me
friend who's who's thrown that at me before as like proof that like, you
before as like proof that like, you know, there's lots of error in scripture
know, there's lots of error in scripture and therefore we can kind of just
and therefore we can kind of just believe what we want to believe in
believe what we want to believe in scripture because St. Paul thought Jesus
scripture because St. Paul thought Jesus was coming back in his lifetime. I'm
was coming back in his lifetime. I'm like that to me sounds like a very
like that to me sounds like a very active hope like yeah,
active hope like yeah, >> you know. [laughter]
>> you know. [laughter] >> Yeah. And we're very we're very, you
>> Yeah. And we're very we're very, you know, modern western life is very
know, modern western life is very comfortable,
comfortable, very nice. and we have lots of plans for
very nice. and we have lots of plans for the future and our career and our
the future and our career and our retirement and things and you know we're
retirement and things and you know we're but that's how secular we've become.
but that's how secular we've become. That's what separates us from that
That's what separates us from that viewpoint of St. Paul and other historic
viewpoint of St. Paul and other historic Christians, not the fact that there was
Christians, not the fact that there was something wrong with him or something
something wrong with him or something wrong with us that we're not saying
wrong with us that we're not saying Marinatha, you know.
Marinatha, you know. >> Right. Yeah. Exactly. Yeah. Yeah. Well
>> Right. Yeah. Exactly. Yeah. Yeah. Well said. Uh, this this sounds kind of like
said. Uh, this this sounds kind of like uh directed towards
uh directed towards uh Deacon
uh Deacon Sarah from Richard Roland. Old Saxon.
Sarah from Richard Roland. Old Saxon. Are you going going to ever do a video
Are you going going to ever do a video on Genesis A and B or the old Saxon
on Genesis A and B or the old Saxon Genesis or is that more of a father
Genesis or is that more of a father deacon Sarapim Richard Roland job?
deacon Sarapim Richard Roland job? >> Yeah. Yeah, that's that I'll I'll leave
>> Yeah. Yeah, that's that I'll I'll leave I think I'll leave the uh the Saxon I
I think I'll leave the uh the Saxon I lose interest in the world after 400 AD.
lose interest in the world after 400 AD. >> Right. I was like, that's that's way
>> Right. I was like, that's that's way too
too >> the Sax and stuff. Father Andrew, Deacon
>> the Sax and stuff. Father Andrew, Deacon Cherubim, if that is his real name.
Cherubim, if that is his real name. >> Uh
>> Uh I mean it's suspicious because I don't
I mean it's suspicious because I don't think his mom named him that. That's all
think his mom named him that. That's all I'm saying. Um they can they can sort
I'm saying. Um they can they can sort that out.
that out. >> They are uh they are in Scotland right
>> They are uh they are in Scotland right now. I think they're all in that whole
now. I think they're all in that whole uh area.
uh area. >> Yes. And they got they got ancient faith
>> Yes. And they got they got ancient faith to pay for it. That's what's impressive.
to pay for it. That's what's impressive. >> There we go. That is impressive
>> There we go. That is impressive >> from a Dutchman's perspective. That's
>> from a Dutchman's perspective. That's [snorts]
[snorts] >> they have to produce five books out of
>> they have to produce five books out of it out of the trip. I'll have them on.
it out of the trip. I'll have them on. Okay. Uh we got some more questions
Okay. Uh we got some more questions coming in, guys. Lots of questions
coming in, guys. Lots of questions coming in. If you want yours to be
coming in. If you want yours to be jumped to the top, then you can do a
jumped to the top, then you can do a super chat, but I'll try to get to some
super chat, but I'll try to get to some more here. Plus, I Father, I don't know
more here. Plus, I Father, I don't know how much time you have. Um we've been on
how much time you have. Um we've been on for about an hour, so we can get off
for about an hour, so we can get off whenever. I'm a I'm a night owl. So,
whenever. I'm a I'm a night owl. So, whenever you need to tap out,
whenever you need to tap out, will
will >> somebody said, "Laugh out loud." The ark
>> somebody said, "Laugh out loud." The ark in Kentucky. Um,
in Kentucky. Um, >> which got which got rain damaged. That's
>> which got which got rain damaged. That's the funny part. [laughter]
the funny part. [laughter] >> Yeah.
>> Yeah. Flood uh flood damage to the ark. It
Flood uh flood damage to the ark. It couldn't even make it out of Kentucky.
couldn't even make it out of Kentucky. Um,
Um, let's see here.
So, so, oh, this is a follow-up question. Maybe the question is more how
question. Maybe the question is more how do you understand the present end of the
do you understand the present end of the ages to be important to Paul's writings?
ages to be important to Paul's writings? But you also kind of hear that in the
But you also kind of hear that in the book of Hebrews to like, you know, the
book of Hebrews to like, you know, the prophets spoke in peace meal and then
prophets spoke in peace meal and then the son spoke here at the on the last
the son spoke here at the on the last day,
day, >> right? Yeah. Well, so if you understand
>> right? Yeah. Well, so if you understand the the preceding
Jewish esquetology, like second temple Jewish esquetology,
Jewish esquetology, um
um what really shifts for St. Paul is where
what really shifts for St. Paul is where he is on that timeline,
he is on that timeline, right? He doesn't sort of change
right? He doesn't sort of change religions. He's not like, "Oh, okay.
religions. He's not like, "Oh, okay. Well, this Judaism thing is done. Now
Well, this Judaism thing is done. Now we're going to start this Christianity
we're going to start this Christianity thing and I'm going to be one of the
thing and I'm going to be one of the founders." Right? It's it's and the last
founders." Right? It's it's and the last age. So for them the history of the
age. So for them the history of the world's divided into these ages,
world's divided into these ages, >> right? So there's Eden, there's the
>> right? So there's Eden, there's the antidolivian age, right? There's there's
antidolivian age, right? There's there's the um
the um there's the kingdom sometimes separated.
there's the kingdom sometimes separated. [snorts] There's the post- exilic age uh
[snorts] There's the post- exilic age uh which they they often refer to and this
which they they often refer to and this is one of the places where a lot of our
is one of the places where a lot of our evangelical friends badly misunderstand
evangelical friends badly misunderstand Daniel
Daniel the period the the post exilic period
the period the the post exilic period where they were in the land but still
where they were in the land but still under foreign denomination frequently
under foreign denomination frequently referred to in the second temple period
referred to in the second temple period as the great tribulation. That's what
as the great tribulation. That's what Daniel's talking about that period which
Daniel's talking about that period which immediately precedes the messianic age.
immediately precedes the messianic age. >> Mhm. The messianic age is when the
>> Mhm. The messianic age is when the Messiah comes. So once St. Paul
Messiah comes. So once St. Paul encounters Jesus and understands him to
encounters Jesus and understands him to be the Messiah. Jesus of Nazareth is the
be the Messiah. Jesus of Nazareth is the Messiah. The Messiah has come. Then for
Messiah. The Messiah has come. Then for him and for the other apostles, we're
him and for the other apostles, we're now in the last age.
now in the last age. This is the last age. These are the last
This is the last age. These are the last days.
days. And so the end of days, right? The end
And so the end of days, right? The end of the age,
of the age, the final judgment, the resurrection,
the final judgment, the resurrection, right? Christ's glorious appearing
right? Christ's glorious appearing that's going to end everything and
that's going to end everything and there's nothing else that has to happen
there's nothing else that has to happen before that that can now happen at at
before that that can now happen at at any point right and St. Peter says that
any point right and St. Peter says that uh in first Peter that that god is being
uh in first Peter that that god is being patient and postponing that day to sort
patient and postponing that day to sort of maximize the number of people who
of maximize the number of people who find salvation.
find salvation. Uh this is a this is a frequent
Uh this is a this is a frequent I talk about this in in my book uh God
I talk about this in in my book uh God is a man of war about violence in
is a man of war about violence in scripture where there there's this image
scripture where there there's this image it's sort of a background image
it's sort of a background image throughout the scriptures of God having
throughout the scriptures of God having like a balance scale
like a balance scale and on one side of that is his mercy to
and on one side of that is his mercy to allow because God wills that none should
allow because God wills that none should perish right but that they should turn
perish right but that they should turn and live right so his patience and his
and live right so his patience and his mercy and on the other side is the evil
mercy and on the other side is the evil perpetrated by people against other
perpetrated by people against other people, right? The the wickedness and
people, right? The the wickedness and evil in the world. And he is very
evil in the world. And he is very merciful and very long-suffering. So
merciful and very long-suffering. So that side of the scale is weighted down
that side of the scale is weighted down pretty heavily, [laughter] right? But
pretty heavily, [laughter] right? But eventually
eventually eventually that scale can tilt and
eventually that scale can tilt and that's when you get the language in the
that's when you get the language in the Old Testament, for example, of this
Old Testament, for example, of this nation now their cup of iniquity is
nation now their cup of iniquity is full.
full. And so now they're going to be cut off,
And so now they're going to be cut off, right? Mercy now demands
right? Mercy now demands justice, right? Mercy for their future
justice, right? Mercy for their future victims, the people they're going to to
victims, the people they're going to to do evil to. U and so St. Peter applies
do evil to. U and so St. Peter applies that to the appearing of Christ.
that to the appearing of Christ. U he applies that to when will the end
U he applies that to when will the end come, right? And that God is sort of
come, right? And that God is sort of showing mercy, right? Right? So as many
showing mercy, right? Right? So as many people as possible can find repentance
people as possible can find repentance and salvation.
and salvation. Right? But eventually the wickedness and
Right? But eventually the wickedness and the evil in the world will tilt that
the evil in the world will tilt that scale and then Christ will come and set
scale and then Christ will come and set things right.
things right. >> So all the nations of the world are sort
>> So all the nations of the world are sort of filling up their cups. Huh.
of filling up their cups. Huh. >> Yes.
>> Yes. >> Is that is that kind of Yeah.
>> Is that is that kind of Yeah. >> Until not just a few nations but all of
>> Until not just a few nations but all of us are u which is kind of interesting
us are u which is kind of interesting when you think about just like the
when you think about just like the current moment how we're all becoming
current moment how we're all becoming more and more united. where in you talk
more and more united. where in you talk about sort of like AI and everybody sort
about sort of like AI and everybody sort of going down to this point of
of going down to this point of singularity and everybody just being
singularity and everybody just being more and more connected. You can see how
more and more connected. You can see how we could be taken all out at the same
we could be taken all out at the same time with our sins, I suppose.
time with our sins, I suppose. >> Yeah. Yeah. Where the whole world
>> Yeah. Yeah. Where the whole world becomes corrupt again. And the image is
becomes corrupt again. And the image is always this. This is what's going this
always this. This is what's going this is why Enoch becomes such an important
is why Enoch becomes such an important figure in second temple Jewish
figure in second temple Jewish literature is that he's before the
literature is that he's before the flood.
flood. And so the image of
And so the image of the world becoming so evil that God has
the world becoming so evil that God has to intervene is the world before the
to intervene is the world before the flood and how evil it became
flood and how evil it became >> to the point that they were they're
>> to the point that they were they're always talking about in the Anoak
always talking about in the Anoak literature this final evil and perverse
literature this final evil and perverse generation and you find that language
generation and you find that language all over in the New Testament.
all over in the New Testament. >> Right? Christ says that how long will I
>> Right? Christ says that how long will I tolerate this wicked and perverse
tolerate this wicked and perverse generation? Right? referring to that
generation? Right? referring to that tradition and when Christ talks about
tradition and when Christ talks about his own appearing right he talks about
his own appearing right he talks about uh as in the days of Noah right again
uh as in the days of Noah right again and again that's sort of the
and again that's sort of the >> the metaphor that that the world will
>> the metaphor that that the world will finally become that bad again the whole
finally become that bad again the whole thing right not just some part of it
thing right not just some part of it >> will he find faith
>> will he find faith >> when he comes again
>> when he comes again um this is a good practical question u a
um this is a good practical question u a lot of orthodox spiritual literature
lot of orthodox spiritual literature focuses more on monastic spirituality
focuses more on monastic spirituality How do we apply that living in the world
How do we apply that living in the world without feeling we aren't doing enough
without feeling we aren't doing enough compared to the monastic lifestyle so
compared to the monastic lifestyle so that you know people don't fall into
that you know people don't fall into despair?
despair? >> Yeah. Yeah. Well, the the short answer
>> Yeah. Yeah. Well, the the short answer uh is
uh is hopefully your spiritual father can help
hopefully your spiritual father can help you make applications right to your own
you make applications right to your own particular life because life in the
particular life because life in the world is different for different people,
world is different for different people, right? Um, we had some people stop by
right? Um, we had some people stop by and visit our parish last night who are
and visit our parish last night who are basically homesteaders, right? They live
basically homesteaders, right? They live out in the woods. They grow their own
out in the woods. They grow their own food. They're their their life in the
food. They're their their life in the world as a family is pretty different
world as a family is pretty different from the people living in Lafayette, but
from the people living in Lafayette, but that's pretty different than the people
that's pretty different than the people living in the middle of New York City,
living in the middle of New York City, [laughter] right? That's so life in the
[laughter] right? That's so life in the world isn't just all one thing either,
world isn't just all one thing either, right? And that's why it's so important
right? And that's why it's so important to have a spiritual father to apply
to have a spiritual father to apply that. But I mean, this is something that
that. But I mean, this is something that the authors of that literature
the authors of that literature were aware of. If you read the prologue
were aware of. If you read the prologue written by St. John Clemicus to the
written by St. John Clemicus to the latter of divine ascent, he basically
latter of divine ascent, he basically tell says married people shouldn't
tell says married people shouldn't bother to read this. [laughter]
bother to read this. [laughter] He basically says when a married man
He basically says when a married man comes to me and asks me what he should
comes to me and asks me what he should do, here's what I tell him. And he does
do, here's what I tell him. And he does that in the prologue, [laughter] right?
that in the prologue, [laughter] right? He says here's what you should do. And
He says here's what you should do. And it's not identical and it's not a
it's not identical and it's not a watered down version
watered down version of what comes next either. It's not just
of what comes next either. It's not just like, well, let's ratchet down and make
like, well, let's ratchet down and make it not so hard. It's different,
it not so hard. It's different, right? Because, for example, the person
right? Because, for example, the person who's in the world
who's in the world doesn't just need to have fair and
doesn't just need to have fair and equitable business dealings, but the
equitable business dealings, but the proceeds that come from those business
proceeds that come from those business dealings they need to use to help the
dealings they need to use to help the poor. That's an opportunity a monastic
poor. That's an opportunity a monastic doesn't have,
doesn't have, right? The giving of alms is this whole
right? The giving of alms is this whole field. And this this is one of the
field. And this this is one of the things that's super neglected in our in
things that's super neglected in our in our modern theological understanding. Um
our modern theological understanding. Um how important almsgiving is to salvation
how important almsgiving is to salvation according to every church father ever.
according to every church father ever. If you want to really dig into that,
If you want to really dig into that, start with St. Cypriate of Carthage's uh
start with St. Cypriate of Carthage's uh on almsgiving.
on almsgiving. Everybody just reads him for the baptism
Everybody just reads him for the baptism debate, but read [snorts] read on
debate, but read [snorts] read on almsgiving, right? Um,
almsgiving, right? Um, literally the testimony of the church
literally the testimony of the church fathers is that giving alms atones for
fathers is that giving alms atones for your sin,
your sin, >> right?
>> right? >> Which is in Sierak, too. Isn't that in
>> Which is in Sierak, too. Isn't that in the book of Sierak? I think. Yeah.
the book of Sierak? I think. Yeah. [laughter] Yeah.
[laughter] Yeah. >> Um, so and and that's something that a
>> Um, so and and that's something that a monastic can't do, but that those living
monastic can't do, but that those living in the world are called to do. So
in the world are called to do. So I I part of it is we need to we have a
I I part of it is we need to we have a tiny amount of the spiritual literature
tiny amount of the spiritual literature of the Orthodox Church translated into
of the Orthodox Church translated into English.
English. And it's less a case of most of the
And it's less a case of most of the literature being monastic
literature being monastic than
than uh most that's been translated as
uh most that's been translated as monastic.
monastic. Uh, and so I think it would be good for
Uh, and so I think it would be good for us to revitalize more some of those like
us to revitalize more some of those like St. Srians on almsgiving, right? There
St. Srians on almsgiving, right? There are certain texts we've all heard of. I
are certain texts we've all heard of. I bet not a lot of people listening to
bet not a lot of people listening to this
this >> knew about that text [laughter] of St.
>> knew about that text [laughter] of St. Cri or how how important it was in the
Cri or how how important it was in the in the history of the church. Um, and I
in the history of the church. Um, and I think if we do, if we start to focus and
think if we do, if we start to focus and and every generation of the church needs
and every generation of the church needs to reappropriate the tradition,
to reappropriate the tradition, right? It's all there. It's all been
right? It's all there. It's all been preserved for us, but there's these
preserved for us, but there's these chunks of it that we're unaware of. And
chunks of it that we're unaware of. And some of my work, like my book,
some of my work, like my book, Apocrypha, that's all that is. That's,
Apocrypha, that's all that is. That's, hey, here's a bunch of literature you
hey, here's a bunch of literature you don't know about that's part of our
don't know about that's part of our tradition, right? And an introduction to
tradition, right? And an introduction to it to try and help you because it's not
it to try and help you because it's not about what Protestants call the
about what Protestants call the Apocrypha. It's about stuff like first
Apocrypha. It's about stuff like first Enoch and the acts of Thomas and
Enoch and the acts of Thomas and [laughter] these other texts that are
[laughter] these other texts that are preserved on Mount Aos for example. Um
preserved on Mount Aos for example. Um so yeah
so yeah re we need to reappropriate a lot of the
re we need to reappropriate a lot of the good the good uh orthodox literature we
good the good uh orthodox literature we have on marriage on almsgiving on living
have on marriage on almsgiving on living in the world on how do you do business
in the world on how do you do business as a Christian and how is that different
as a Christian and how is that different um that's something we need to work on
um that's something we need to work on reappropriating
reappropriating >> uh you'll you'll know this book this is
>> uh you'll you'll know this book this is this is relating to that subject how to
this is relating to that subject how to read the holy fathers
read the holy fathers Yes,
Yes, >> my father Joseph Lucas. You guys can
>> my father Joseph Lucas. You guys can watch that interview that I did with
watch that interview that I did with him, but he has actually a whole chapter
him, but he has actually a whole chapter dedicated to how to read aesthetical
dedicated to how to read aesthetical works.
works. And uh it he actually answers the
And uh it he actually answers the question that that person just asked
question that that person just asked because each we you don't want to read
because each we you don't want to read the fathers and all the literature in
the fathers and all the literature in exactly the same way when it all has
exactly the same way when it all has different genres. And uh sometimes that
different genres. And uh sometimes that can be something that we do sometimes by
can be something that we do sometimes by accident is reading monastic literature
accident is reading monastic literature and not realizing the genre that we're
and not realizing the genre that we're in perhaps.
in perhaps. >> Right.
>> Right. >> Yeah. He's a good friend of mine.
>> Yeah. He's a good friend of mine. >> He's great. Yeah, he's great. Uh yeah.
>> He's great. Yeah, he's great. Uh yeah. So anyways, watch that interview and
So anyways, watch that interview and this book is really helpful I think uh
this book is really helpful I think uh in terms of of that uh question that
in terms of of that uh question that came up here and I think it's a joke.
came up here and I think it's a joke. [laughter]
[laughter] >> Who knows? [gasps] Does Tobat confirm
>> Who knows? [gasps] Does Tobat confirm God prefers dogs over cats?
God prefers dogs over cats? >> I'm gonna say yes because I prefer dogs
>> I'm gonna say yes because I prefer dogs over cats.
over cats. >> Yeah, me too.
>> Yeah, me too. >> This is my completely subjective reading
>> This is my completely subjective reading [laughter]
[laughter] of the scriptures,
of the scriptures, >> but we just had a bunch of kittens and
>> but we just had a bunch of kittens and we have cats and no dogs currently, but
we have cats and no dogs currently, but we are I'm a big dog, but we currently
we are I'm a big dog, but we currently it's so we can actually travel sometimes
it's so we can actually travel sometimes and not have to find a dog sitter.
and not have to find a dog sitter. Uh let's see here.
Uh let's see here. Uh
Uh oh, here this is your domain here.
oh, here this is your domain here. Yam Kapur, one goat sacrifice, one sent
Yam Kapur, one goat sacrifice, one sent into the desert. Is there a correlation
into the desert. Is there a correlation with Isaac being offered and Ishmael
with Isaac being offered and Ishmael being sent out of the camp?
being sent out of the camp? So, um
this is interesting. So, I'm not going to say no, [laughter]
I'm not going to say no, [laughter] right? Because there there is a uh
right? Because there there is a uh there is there is clearly a a connection
there is there is clearly a a connection in terms of not just Ishmael being sent
in terms of not just Ishmael being sent out um but him being sent out and Hagar
out um but him being sent out and Hagar being sent out sort of in shame,
being sent out sort of in shame, right?
right? um sort of she takes the blame for
um sort of she takes the blame for Abraham's frankly
Abraham's frankly right uh doubts about God's promise that
right uh doubts about God's promise that he would have a son with Sarah right and
he would have a son with Sarah right and that's sort of pinned on her right as
that's sort of pinned on her right as she said away so I think there's a valid
she said away so I think there's a valid valid connection you're seeing there
valid connection you're seeing there >> but very interestingly like in the book
>> but very interestingly like in the book of Jubilees
of Jubilees uh the story that they connect to uh the
uh the story that they connect to uh the day of atonement very literally as in
day of atonement very literally as in it's the same date and they say that the
it's the same date and they say that the patriarchs were celebrating on that day.
patriarchs were celebrating on that day. Uh that was the day of mourning and
Uh that was the day of mourning and fasting
fasting uh for the
uh for the imagined death of Joseph.
Uh they connect Joseph's brothers selling him into slavery and him being
selling him into slavery and him being taken to Egypt.
taken to Egypt. Uh and then they put the blood of a goat
Uh and then they put the blood of a goat on the coat to sort of cover up their
on the coat to sort of cover up their crime.
crime. [laughter] Right.
[laughter] Right. >> Right.
>> Right. >> They when they bring it back to their
>> They when they bring it back to their father. Um and so this idea of a day of
father. Um and so this idea of a day of repentance, right, and mourning and
repentance, right, and mourning and fasting, Jubilees connects it to that.
fasting, Jubilees connects it to that. Um, and that's then the day that the
Um, and that's then the day that the that the Day of Atonement is put on. But
that the Day of Atonement is put on. But let me say this about the Day of
let me say this about the Day of Atonement. One of the
Atonement. One of the We're very focused on the goats,
We're very focused on the goats, [laughter] right? Um, but that's not
[laughter] right? Um, but that's not really the lead in what's going on then
really the lead in what's going on then in the Day of Atonement.
in the Day of Atonement. When you read through Leviticus,
When you read through Leviticus, um, the Day of Atonement was the day in
um, the Day of Atonement was the day in which God appeared in bodily form in the
which God appeared in bodily form in the Holy of Holies.
That's where it starts, [laughter] right? Once a year, he is going to
right? Once a year, he is going to appear bodily in the holy of holies,
appear bodily in the holy of holies, right? In the most holy place in the
right? In the most holy place in the tabernacle and then the temple. And then
tabernacle and then the temple. And then everything else about the day of
everything else about the day of atonement is here's what you need to do
atonement is here's what you need to do so that you don't die on that day.
so that you don't die on that day. >> [laughter]
>> [laughter] >> Basically,
here's all the things that need to happen in terms of the cloud of incense,
happen in terms of the cloud of incense, in terms of the purification of the
in terms of the purification of the sanctuary itself with the blood of the
sanctuary itself with the blood of the sacrificed goat, in terms of the removal
sacrificed goat, in terms of the removal of the sins of the people from the camp.
of the sins of the people from the camp. That's also that when God appears,
That's also that when God appears, right? Um, the book I'm writing right
right? Um, the book I'm writing right now is on atonement.
now is on atonement. >> Awesome.
>> Awesome. >> Right. uh that hopefully will settle a
>> Right. uh that hopefully will settle a lot of online weirdness.
lot of online weirdness. >> I was going to ask I was gonna ask when
>> I was going to ask I was gonna ask when your a book on automo is coming out. I'm
your a book on automo is coming out. I'm like he's got to he's got to write one.
like he's got to he's got to write one. >> So yeah. Well, this is what my
>> So yeah. Well, this is what my dissertation was on. So [laughter]
dissertation was on. So [laughter] >> yeah.
>> yeah. >> So I've done a lot of the research.
>> So I've done a lot of the research. >> I'm currently reading uh well I'm
>> I'm currently reading uh well I'm currently reading Father Joseph Lucas's
currently reading Father Joseph Lucas's dissertation on it, too.
dissertation on it, too. >> Yeah.
>> Yeah. >> Yeah.
>> Yeah. >> Um yeah, I've got a copy of that over
>> Um yeah, I've got a copy of that over there. Um
there. Um but uh yeah so
but uh yeah so that really ch when you understand that
that really ch when you understand that that reorients a lot of thinking about
that reorients a lot of thinking about atonement and it helps make a lot of
atonement and it helps make a lot of sense of for example what's going on
sense of for example what's going on with the idea of atonement in St. in
with the idea of atonement in St. in Athanasius is on the incarnation.
>> Great. Because that's where a lot of the battleground conversations tend to
battleground conversations tend to happen.
happen. >> When when he talks about the incarnation
>> When when he talks about the incarnation as atonement,
as atonement, right,
right, he's talking about
he's talking about ultimately this is how God comes and
ultimately this is how God comes and appears and walks among us.
appears and walks among us. And the incarnation of Christ is how he
And the incarnation of Christ is how he does that without us dying. Right.
does that without us dying. Right. [laughter]
Uh let's see. I had a question that I was
let's see. I had a question that I was getting ready to pop up here. Let's see
getting ready to pop up here. Let's see here. Um where did it go?
here. Um where did it go? Uh yes, here it is. Somebody just
Uh yes, here it is. Somebody just started reading your book.
started reading your book. Only in they're only in the first
Only in they're only in the first chapter, but how does the bail cycles
chapter, but how does the bail cycles relate to the heroing of Hades? You
relate to the heroing of Hades? You touched on you definitely touched on
touched on you definitely touched on that in the book.
that in the book. >> Yeah.
>> Yeah. >> By the by the book.
>> By the by the book. >> You'll get there. You're tracking.
>> You'll get there. You're tracking. >> Keep keep reading.
>> Keep keep reading. >> Yes. [laughter]
>> Yes. >> Yes. Um
>> Yes. Um let's see here. Is this a Christian
let's see here. Is this a Christian channel? Yes, this is a Christian
channel? Yes, this is a Christian channel, but we can talk about anything.
channel, but we can talk about anything. If you have a question, agnostic. Um,
>> Not yet. [snorts]
[snorts] Um, I get accused of being anti-American
Um, I get accused of being anti-American a lot. Um,
a lot. Um, I don't I don't think I am, at least in
I don't I don't think I am, at least in terms of the future, [laughter] right? I
terms of the future, [laughter] right? I I uh have a very realistic view of
I uh have a very realistic view of American history though
American history though and I think frankly America has a pagan
and I think frankly America has a pagan goddess that a lot of people don't know
goddess that a lot of people don't know about. But if you if you go and look at
about. But if you if you go and look at 18th and 19th century
18th and 19th century >> uh iconography, American iconography,
>> uh iconography, American iconography, you will you will discover Colombia.
>> Is this like in the Capitol building? Do we need to go to like
we need to go to like yeah
yeah >> prince right you'll see her like
>> prince right you'll see her like depictions of manifest destiny are her
depictions of manifest destiny are her walking west
walking west right [laughter] across the like this
right [laughter] across the like this spirit of America right who is going in
spirit of America right who is going in his possession of all this land and you
his possession of all this land and you know too bad for the people already
know too bad for the people already there um yeah so
there um yeah so yeah But I hope
yeah But I hope I hope that uh once once America becomes
I hope that uh once once America becomes orthodox
orthodox >> yes in time
>> yes in time >> we will then have a we will replace
>> we will then have a we will replace Colombia with a patron saint the way
Colombia with a patron saint the way Thessaloniki replaced uh Aphrodite with
Thessaloniki replaced uh Aphrodite with St. Demetrius who we just celebrated.
St. Demetrius who we just celebrated. >> There we go.
>> There we go. >> Tear down the pagan altars and rebuild
>> Tear down the pagan altars and rebuild them.
them. >> Uh this is a question that relates to
>> Uh this is a question that relates to the devil and beast and antichrist. If
the devil and beast and antichrist. If the beast in Revelation is Nero, is it
the beast in Revelation is Nero, is it possible that the false prophet is Simon
possible that the false prophet is Simon Maggus? I guess the book of Acts, they
Maggus? I guess the book of Acts, they seem to partner up in tradition.
seem to partner up in tradition. Irenaeus treats the Gnostics as a rival
Irenaeus treats the Gnostics as a rival succession from Simon.
succession from Simon. Um well so I think it's important to
Um well so I think it's important to understand that that Nero is not that
understand that that Nero is not that Nero it the image of Nero is being used
Nero it the image of Nero is being used for the beast in revelation is not
for the beast in revelation is not trying to say that Nero was the final
trying to say that Nero was the final antichrist. Mhm.
antichrist. Mhm. >> Uh there were people who believed that
>> Uh there were people who believed that [snorts]
[snorts] not just so
not just so uh one of the reasons why Nero is used
uh one of the reasons why Nero is used as sort of a type and an image of the
as sort of a type and an image of the antichrist
antichrist u is that uh there was this particular
u is that uh there was this particular tradition about him. Now Nero, if you
tradition about him. Now Nero, if you know the history, Nero actually was
know the history, Nero actually was going to be overthrown and was on the
going to be overthrown and was on the run and ended up committing suicide
run and ended up committing suicide rather than be captured.
rather than be captured. Um and that ended the Julio Claudian
Um and that ended the Julio Claudian dynasty in Rome. Uh but but things did
dynasty in Rome. Uh but but things did not go well for Rome in the years
not go well for Rome in the years immediately after that. And so there
immediately after that. And so there were these rumors that became traditions
were these rumors that became traditions among the pagans that uh Nero had
among the pagans that uh Nero had survived that he was hiding somewhere in
survived that he was hiding somewhere in Asia Minor.
Asia Minor. uh he had survived and was going to
uh he had survived and was going to reemerge and restore the empire.
reemerge and restore the empire. >> And so if you read Diosis who's writing
>> And so if you read Diosis who's writing in I think 88 AD, he talks about that
in I think 88 AD, he talks about that tradition and that tradition persisted.
tradition and that tradition persisted. Uh St. Augustine talks about it in city
Uh St. Augustine talks about it in city of god that at the time the western
of god that at the time the western Roman Empire was collapsing in the fifth
Roman Empire was collapsing in the fifth early fifth century uh there were sort
early fifth century uh there were sort of recalcitrant pagans who are like oh
of recalcitrant pagans who are like oh our mistake was becoming Christian Nero
our mistake was becoming Christian Nero is going to come back and save us
is going to come back and save us >> he's only a sleeper he's not
>> he's only a sleeper he's not >> yeah and restore the old paganism so
>> yeah and restore the old paganism so this idea that Nero was going to sort of
this idea that Nero was going to sort of fake resurrect was going to come back
fake resurrect was going to come back from the dead right that that uh wound
from the dead right that that uh wound that seemed fatal but that was healed
that seemed fatal but that was healed right in the book of revelation. That's
right in the book of revelation. That's part of why he's sort of being used as a
part of why he's sort of being used as a model because the pagans were putting
model because the pagans were putting their hope in him the way Christians put
their hope in him the way Christians put their hope in Christ, right? So
their hope in Christ, right? So antichrist doesn't mean opposed to
antichrist doesn't mean opposed to Christ. It means instead of
Christ. It means instead of um but you already have in first John,
um but you already have in first John, you have heard that an antichrist will
you have heard that an antichrist will come and already antichrist plural,
come and already antichrist plural, right, have come,
right, have come, >> right? Yeah.
>> right? Yeah. >> And so the teaching of the church has
>> And so the teaching of the church has always been there's going to be a final
always been there's going to be a final ultimate antichrist. But there are other
ultimate antichrist. But there are other figures, Antichrist figures, right,
figures, Antichrist figures, right, throughout history who are moved by the
throughout history who are moved by the spirit of Antichrist, which is a term
spirit of Antichrist, which is a term St. Paul uses um the spirit of
St. Paul uses um the spirit of Antichrist being at work in the world,
Antichrist being at work in the world, right? Spirit of lawlessness. Um
right? Spirit of lawlessness. Um working abroad all along through
working abroad all along through history. And so you could say the same
history. And so you could say the same thing with the false prophet, right?
thing with the false prophet, right? That there will be a final one, but
That there will be a final one, but there are many of those. And I certainly
there are many of those. And I certainly think Simon Maggas, right, would be one
think Simon Maggas, right, would be one of those, right? And Valentinus who
of those, right? And Valentinus who starts the Valentinian Gnostics Act all
starts the Valentinian Gnostics Act all the way down to somebody like, sorry
the way down to somebody like, sorry Mormons, Joseph Smith, right? That's uh
Mormons, Joseph Smith, right? That's uh Muhammad, right? Let's get people really
Muhammad, right? Let's get people really mad. Um,
mad. Um, >> yeah,
>> yeah, >> right. All the way down through history,
>> right. All the way down through history, there are false prophet figures.
there are false prophet figures. >> In some ways, Muhammad is significant
>> In some ways, Muhammad is significant just because of how big Islam has also
just because of how big Islam has also become. I mean this it's global liturgy
become. I mean this it's global liturgy if you will. Uh so so it is a big big
if you will. Uh so so it is a big big deal
deal but typology definitely helps kind of
but typology definitely helps kind of unlock a lot of this typological
unlock a lot of this typological thinking in a way. I had a professor in
thinking in a way. I had a professor in in college and he he said the opposite
in college and he he said the opposite of what you said in your book that I
of what you said in your book that I just the bail book and I remember what
just the bail book and I remember what he said. said, I was like, "This doesn't
he said. said, I was like, "This doesn't seem right to me." But he basically
seem right to me." But he basically said, "Ex Jesus of a verse only has one
said, "Ex Jesus of a verse only has one one meaning." You know, you can have,
one meaning." You know, you can have, you know, options that you're trying to
you know, options that you're trying to choose, but there's only one that's
choose, but there's only one that's right. And the more that I got into the
right. And the more that I got into the fathers and just typological thinking,
fathers and just typological thinking, I'm like, "This doesn't seem right to
I'm like, "This doesn't seem right to me. It seems like that there really can
me. It seems like that there really can be like multiple illusions to to
be like multiple illusions to to different things." U he was very much
different things." U he was very much kind of more of an RC Sproul type of
kind of more of an RC Sproul type of professor, very very reformed, very
professor, very very reformed, very Calvinist, but Yeah. Yeah. Well, that
Calvinist, but Yeah. Yeah. Well, that and that was that was an older Yeah.
and that was that was an older Yeah. Calvinist especially. So, there was a
Calvinist especially. So, there was a very there was even among conservative
very there was even among conservative there there was a very strong streak of
there there was a very strong streak of modern I mean philosophical modernism.
modern I mean philosophical modernism. I'm not just using modernism as a
I'm not just using modernism as a pjorative, right? But you read like
pjorative, right? But you read like Haj's systematic theology,
Haj's systematic theology, right? And you read who is a professor
right? And you read who is a professor at Old Princeton,
at Old Princeton, still widely regarded, right? His
still widely regarded, right? His systematic theology among Presbyterian
systematic theology among Presbyterian theologians. But in his in his sort of
theologians. But in his in his sort of preface, he talks about how theology is
preface, he talks about how theology is a science. And just like the natural
a science. And just like the natural sciences collect data and then form
sciences collect data and then form certain conclusions based on logical and
certain conclusions based on logical and mathematical,
mathematical, right? Uh that data, theology does the
right? Uh that data, theology does the same thing. And for a Protestant
same thing. And for a Protestant theologian, that data is scripture.
theologian, that data is scripture. And so scripture is a series of logical
And so scripture is a series of logical propositions,
propositions, right? You arrange them into arguments
right? You arrange them into arguments and then he says the results of the
and then he says the results of the theological method are just as sure as
theological method are just as sure as the results of science.
the results of science. There's [snorts] modernism for you.
There's [snorts] modernism for you. >> Yeah. [laughter]
>> Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I had another professor who said, "An atheist should
professor who said, "An atheist should be able to interpret the Bible just as
be able to interpret the Bible just as good as you, even though you're a
good as you, even though you're a believer, just by, you know, just by
believer, just by, you know, just by breaking down the Greek just right."
breaking down the Greek just right." >> Yeah. Right. Well, well, well, it is
>> Yeah. Right. Well, well, well, it is possible to construct a method,
possible to construct a method, >> right,
>> right, >> that will produce consistent results.
>> that will produce consistent results. But then you have to question the
But then you have to question the method, [laughter] right? Why that
method, [laughter] right? Why that method and not another? Right. Yeah.
method and not another? Right. Yeah. >> This is where I think it's really
>> This is where I think it's really helpful for the work that you're doing
helpful for the work that you're doing and that is spending a lot of time with
and that is spending a lot of time with like second temple period Judaism and
like second temple period Judaism and all this thought with the you know the
all this thought with the you know the near east and it helps unlock the larger
near east and it helps unlock the larger contexts and the you know the illusions
contexts and the you know the illusions that are being made and I think that
that are being made and I think that really helps a lot of Protestants break
really helps a lot of Protestants break through uh into orthodoxy. Um, I've I've
through uh into orthodoxy. Um, I've I've I have met so many people who when they
I have met so many people who when they talk about their journey to orthodoxy,
talk about their journey to orthodoxy, the Lord of Spirits is mentioned almost
the Lord of Spirits is mentioned almost every time or like quite a bit.
every time or like quite a bit. >> Well, thank God.
>> Well, thank God. >> Yeah. I mean, it's pretty awesome. But I
>> Yeah. I mean, it's pretty awesome. But I think it's that it's because it's
think it's that it's because it's helping people sort of see that typology
helping people sort of see that typology and see those patterns and see the te
and see those patterns and see the te second temple period Judaism context.
second temple period Judaism context. Um, a lot of people coming from through
Um, a lot of people coming from through the through the hiser to you uh is a big
the through the hiser to you uh is a big pattern too. I see.
pattern too. I see. >> Yeah. Because we talk about some of
>> Yeah. Because we talk about some of those topics. Yeah. Right. And I think
those topics. Yeah. Right. And I think >> like Heiser's Heiser's academic work,
>> like Heiser's Heiser's academic work, all of his peer-reviewed Old Testament
all of his peer-reviewed Old Testament stuff is top-notch. [snorts]
stuff is top-notch. [snorts] Um I think that the issue comes in that
Um I think that the issue comes in that he was an evangelical Protestant.
he was an evangelical Protestant. And so he then takes the results of that
And so he then takes the results of that scholarship and frames them in
scholarship and frames them in attempts to frame them within his
attempts to frame them within his evangelical Protestantism.
evangelical Protestantism. >> Yeah.
>> Yeah. >> And he seems to some extent like we were
>> And he seems to some extent like we were talking about with Wes Huff to be kind
talking about with Wes Huff to be kind of unaware that he's doing that. He
of unaware that he's doing that. He tended to very much use the discourse of
tended to very much use the discourse of right like I don't have creeds and
right like I don't have creeds and traditions and
traditions and D everybody who disagrees with me does
D everybody who disagrees with me does but I'm just go you know. Um, but you
but I'm just go you know. Um, but you can see to me like here here's a place
can see to me like here here's a place where it creeps out. If you get a copy
where it creeps out. If you get a copy of Unseen Realm,
of Unseen Realm, uh, the whole raise undead of the book,
uh, the whole raise undead of the book, like the subtitle of the book, what he
like the subtitle of the book, what he talks about in the preface, what's he
talks about in the preface, what's he talks about on the back of the flap,
talks about on the back of the flap, right, is restoring the supernatural
right, is restoring the supernatural worldview of the Bible.
worldview of the Bible. And then the last couple chapters of the
And then the last couple chapters of the book, he talks about baptism in the
book, he talks about baptism in the Eucharist
Eucharist and says there's nothing supernatural
and says there's nothing supernatural about them.
about them. And my question immediately when I saw
And my question immediately when I saw that in the book was, well then why are
that in the book was, well then why are you talking about them in this book,
you talking about them in this book, >> right?
>> right? >> If the book is about recovering the
>> If the book is about recovering the [laughter] the supernatural worldview
[laughter] the supernatural worldview and this isn't supernatural, why is it
and this isn't supernatural, why is it even here,
even here, >> right? And so that that shows a little
>> right? And so that that shows a little bit of the cognissance. So I I think a
bit of the cognissance. So I I think a lot of the people who get interested in
lot of the people who get interested in those topics and read his good
those topics and read his good scholarship and stuff when they discover
scholarship and stuff when they discover the Orthodox Church,
the Orthodox Church, we're taking that that good stuff that
we're taking that that good stuff that they found, but we're framing it in a
they found, but we're framing it in a way that's more consistent,
way that's more consistent, >> right? And and where it makes more sense
>> right? And and where it makes more sense and where it's lived out and it's there
and where it's lived out and it's there in the worship service. It's there in
in the worship service. It's there in the Right. Um it's not sort of this odd
the Right. Um it's not sort of this odd detail, you know?
detail, you know? Yeah. Now, now, uh, if I clip out what
Yeah. Now, now, uh, if I clip out what you just said about Heiser, I'll get a
you just said about Heiser, I'll get a lot of responses from his fans.
lot of responses from his fans. He didn't miss anything. Uh, I did that
He didn't miss anything. Uh, I did that with Sarah from Hamilton. We I did a we
with Sarah from Hamilton. We I did a we did a little clip on when he was talking
did a little clip on when he was talking about he he really appreciates Heiser's
about he he really appreciates Heiser's work, but he was critiquing him about
work, but he was critiquing him about some of those missing components with
some of those missing components with like like lurggical thinking and things
like like lurggical thinking and things like that. And uh, the Heiser folks came
like that. And uh, the Heiser folks came a running. Um, but they're good people.
a running. Um, but they're good people. It's a lot of fun.
It's a lot of fun. >> A lot of fun.
>> A lot of fun. >> I appreciate them. a lot. Um, oh, good.
>> I appreciate them. a lot. Um, oh, good. Well, somebody said, "I was wondering
Well, somebody said, "I was wondering what father thinks of Michael Heiser."
what father thinks of Michael Heiser." Well, there you go.
Well, there you go. You now know.
You now know. Lot of respect. I was I didn't even
Lot of respect. I was I didn't even become aware of him until probably about
become aware of him until probably about 2014 or 15.
2014 or 15. Somebody shared me the the Unseen Realm
Somebody shared me the the Unseen Realm book and that's when I read it.
book and that's when I read it. But I was uh more into like the Dr. NT
But I was uh more into like the Dr. NT Wright world uh before the
Wright world uh before the >> Yeah.
>> Yeah. >> Yeah. That was something that helped me
>> Yeah. That was something that helped me at at the time. But everybody's got
at at the time. But everybody's got maybe some Protestant scholarship that
maybe some Protestant scholarship that can lead them to thinking a little bit
can lead them to thinking a little bit deeper.
deeper. >> Well, yeah. Yeah. Because
>> Well, yeah. Yeah. Because especially with scholarship, when you're
especially with scholarship, when you're digging into something, right, you're
digging into something, right, you're going to uncover these these good
going to uncover these these good things. And and the question is once you
things. And and the question is once you have those insights,
have those insights, how do you then piece that together into
how do you then piece that together into a coherent
a coherent practice lived out faith and worship?
practice lived out faith and worship? Mhm.
Mhm. >> And so I think because I would say the
>> And so I think because I would say the same thing about entrights insights
same thing about entrights insights about St. Paul,
about St. Paul, >> right?
>> right? >> To really live those out and really have
>> To really live those out and really have those framed in a coherent way. Um
you need to be within the right within within I think with obviously as an
within I think with obviously as an Orthodox priest within the the framework
Orthodox priest within the the framework of Orthodox theology in the Orthodox
of Orthodox theology in the Orthodox Church. Um otherwise you you kind of you
Church. Um otherwise you you kind of you have this good stuff but then you have
have this good stuff but then you have this other stuff that it's not totally
this other stuff that it's not totally clear how it fits together sometimes.
clear how it fits together sometimes. >> Yeah. Integration integration of all
>> Yeah. Integration integration of all these things. And I mean I think
these things. And I mean I think orthodoxy is a beautiful I mean there's
orthodoxy is a beautiful I mean there's still of course lots of mystery but
still of course lots of mystery but there's a lot of integration with all of
there's a lot of integration with all of these things. It's just a really
these things. It's just a really beautiful tapestry
beautiful tapestry >> and and you hear that from some of the
>> and and you hear that from some of the Heiser folks themselves. They're talking
Heiser folks themselves. They're talking about like their struggle to sort of
about like their struggle to sort of integrate. Oh, okay. I've learned all
integrate. Oh, okay. I've learned all this cool stuff about the Old Testament
this cool stuff about the Old Testament from reading Heiser's work and now I go
from reading Heiser's work and now I go to my evangelical church and they all
to my evangelical church and they all look at me like I'm a crazy person who
look at me like I'm a crazy person who wants to talk about Nephilim all the
wants to talk about Nephilim all the time, right? Like so they're even
time, right? Like so they're even struggling a little bit to like how do I
struggling a little bit to like how do I how do I bring this into the rest of my
how do I bring this into the rest of my right my my faith and my life.
right my my faith and my life. >> Yeah. Yeah, I mean it's a perfect
>> Yeah. Yeah, I mean it's a perfect building blocks to talking about patron
building blocks to talking about patron saints and all those sorts of things.
saints and all those sorts of things. It's a real Yeah.
It's a real Yeah. real important step.
real important step. Um what what do you think about Dr.
Um what what do you think about Dr. Michael Gorman's work on theosis and
Michael Gorman's work on theosis and justification in St. Paul? I I don't
justification in St. Paul? I I don't know if you
know if you >> It's It's good. There's I've always I
>> It's It's good. There's I've always I always hesitate about endorsing
always hesitate about endorsing when anytime I endorse anything broadly,
when anytime I endorse anything broadly, somebody pops up and it's like,
somebody pops up and it's like, >> well, on page 83 of this book, he said
>> well, on page 83 of this book, he said this, which is totally opposing the
this, which is totally opposing the Orthodox, you know. [laughter]
Orthodox, you know. [laughter] >> Yeah.
>> Yeah. >> Um, so I'm always I'm always a little
>> Um, so I'm always I'm always a little wary, but um I talked about this the
wary, but um I talked about this the other night. I think one of the things
other night. I think one of the things people need to learn to not approach
people need to learn to not approach reading that way. Right. [laughter]
reading that way. Right. [laughter] Um
Um >> like apply cancel culture to like just
>> like apply cancel culture to like just reading other things.
reading other things. >> Well, yeah. Or just or just at the level
>> Well, yeah. Or just or just at the level of like this has to be 100% true and
of like this has to be 100% true and orthodox or I will not read it,
orthodox or I will not read it, >> right? And then you're only going to be
>> right? And then you're only going to be reading the Bible.
reading the Bible. Literally, you can't even read the
Literally, you can't even read the church fathers because no no individual
church fathers because no no individual church father is infallible,
church father is infallible, [laughter] right? So if infallibility is
[laughter] right? So if infallibility is the test, you're you're left at just
the test, you're you're left at just reading the Bible. Um, and then you're
reading the Bible. Um, and then you're not going to interpret it infallibly, so
not going to interpret it infallibly, so you're even kind of stuck there. Um, but
you're even kind of stuck there. Um, but um,
um, yeah. So, anything you read, including
yeah. So, anything you read, including my books, especially my books, right?
my books, especially my books, right? Um,
not 100% right. It didn't, it wasn't handed to me on Mount Si. Um, so we need
handed to me on Mount Si. Um, so we need to learn to read and you can you can
to learn to read and you can you can read a book where you completely
read a book where you completely disagree with the conclusions that the
disagree with the conclusions that the author draws. But along the way to those
author draws. But along the way to those conclusions, he's going to present
conclusions, he's going to present arguments. He's going to present
arguments. He's going to present information,
information, right? Data, different things. And we
right? Data, different things. And we may be able to get a lot from that data
may be able to get a lot from that data and information in those arguments
and information in those arguments and take those and come to a completely
and take those and come to a completely different conclusion. but have our view
different conclusion. but have our view and our completely different conclusion
and our completely different conclusion enriched by that information in those
enriched by that information in those arguments. Right? So, it's the whole be
arguments. Right? So, it's the whole be the bee thing with the say Basil the
the bee thing with the say Basil the Great, right? You can you can be the bee
Great, right? You can you can be the bee and go looking for pollen or you can be
and go looking for pollen or you can be a fly and go looking for dung.
a fly and go looking for dung. >> Right? Either way, you'll find it.
>> Right? Either way, you'll find it. >> Right.
>> Right. >> Right. I think what I appreciate about,
>> Right. I think what I appreciate about, again, I'm not endorsing Dr. Michael
again, I'm not endorsing Dr. Michael Gorman's work or or [laughter]
Gorman's work or or [laughter] scholarship like it is you're exactly
scholarship like it is you're exactly right. It it's
right. It it's >> I I think what
>> I I think what >> there's a lot of good stuff there. I'll
>> there's a lot of good stuff there. I'll say that
say that >> there is a lot of good stuff. It was
>> there is a lot of good stuff. It was helpful for me because for example he'll
helpful for me because for example he'll talk about how he doesn't make these
talk about how he doesn't make these clean distinctions between well this is
clean distinctions between well this is justification and this is sanctification
justification and this is sanctification and this is glorification. I mean he's
and this is glorification. I mean he's an honest person where he sees
an honest person where he sees glorification is happening at
glorification is happening at justification sanctification is
justification sanctification is happening there. And he speaks kind of
happening there. And he speaks kind of like like using biblical scholarship a
like like using biblical scholarship a lot more like how an orthodox person
lot more like how an orthodox person would think of it.
would think of it. >> Yeah.
>> Yeah. >> Because the Bible does that,
>> Because the Bible does that, >> right?
>> right? >> Not these clearcut,
>> Not these clearcut, >> well that's sanctification, not
>> well that's sanctification, not justification. It's like, well,
justification. It's like, well, >> yeah. The whole golden chain of
>> yeah. The whole golden chain of redemption thing. Yeah.
redemption thing. Yeah. >> Yeah.
>> Yeah. >> So that's why I brought it up. U
>> So that's why I brought it up. U sometimes it's helpful for people to
sometimes it's helpful for people to kind of if they're sifting through those
kind of if they're sifting through those things.
things. >> Yeah. No, there is a lot there is a lot
>> Yeah. No, there is a lot there is a lot of good stuff there. Yeah. Yeah. Oh, so
of good stuff there. Yeah. Yeah. Oh, so somebody asked this question, and this
somebody asked this question, and this is a fun one. Uh, have you ever
is a fun one. Uh, have you ever considered doing a translation of the
considered doing a translation of the scriptures, possibly even an expansion
scriptures, possibly even an expansion on the interpretive translation to
on the interpretive translation to include the entire New Testament? Well,
include the entire New Testament? Well, you're in luck because part of it, you
you're in luck because part of it, you did a little bit of your own translation
did a little bit of your own translation [laughter]
[laughter] in this book. The St. Paul, all of St.
in this book. The St. Paul, all of St. Paul's letters he translated. Yeah.
Paul's letters he translated. Yeah. >> Yes, that is a good that is a good chunk
>> Yes, that is a good that is a good chunk of the New Testament. Um,
of the New Testament. Um, >> yeah,
>> yeah, >> not really. So, [snorts]
>> not really. So, [snorts] uh I am 50 years old. Uh the men in my
uh I am 50 years old. Uh the men in my family don't live long. Uh [laughter]
family don't live long. Uh [laughter] but even if I outlive them all, right,
but even if I outlive them all, right, my time on this earth is finite. What
my time on this earth is finite. What I'm going to be able to accomplish is
I'm going to be able to accomplish is finite. So, when I'm deciding what I'm
finite. So, when I'm deciding what I'm going to do,
going to do, I I'm I have kind of a complex calculus,
I I'm I have kind of a complex calculus, right? [laughter]
right? [laughter] Sort of. But there's a number of things
Sort of. But there's a number of things I have to weigh and one of those is
I have to weigh and one of those is amount of time to amount of benefit.
amount of time to amount of benefit. Um because it's not just
Um because it's not just how much would my Bible translation be
how much would my Bible translation be better or helpful or something or useful
better or helpful or something or useful compared to ones that already exist,
compared to ones that already exist, right? There's that, but then there's
right? There's that, but then there's also
also how much time does that take and what am
how much time does that take and what am I not writing
I not writing that I could be writing instead to write
that I could be writing instead to write that? And what benefit might that have?
that? And what benefit might that have? >> And so um I have been approached and I
>> And so um I have been approached and I have engaged at various levels with
have engaged at various levels with different Bible translation product
different Bible translation product projects behind the scenes and I've
projects behind the scenes and I've ultimately decided that doing any large
ultimately decided that doing any large scale vers now I'm not saying I won't
scale vers now I'm not saying I won't ever do anything. I mean I might at some
ever do anything. I mean I might at some point like I've thought maybe at some
point like I've thought maybe at some point about doing a book about St. John
point about doing a book about St. John that's similar to the one about St.
that's similar to the one about St. Paul, but with the Johannian literature,
Paul, but with the Johannian literature, in which case I might
in which case I might >> do an interpretive translation of St.
>> do an interpretive translation of St. John's gospel and the epistles and
John's gospel and the epistles and revelation, the Johanni literature. So I
revelation, the Johanni literature. So I I might do something like that in the
I might do something like that in the future, but a whole sc a whole scale
future, but a whole sc a whole scale just a Bible translation.
just a Bible translation. >> I've kind of concluded the amount of
>> I've kind of concluded the amount of benefit to that would not be as great as
benefit to that would not be as great as some of the other things,
some of the other things, the benefit of some of the other things
the benefit of some of the other things I want to work on. So,
I want to work on. So, >> yeah.
>> yeah. Um,
we got a chat that just kind of rolled on through here on the federal vision.
on through here on the federal vision. What do you make of the federal vision?
What do you make of the federal vision? At a glance, seems like a Calvinist
At a glance, seems like a Calvinist tradition trying to integrate RC and EO
tradition trying to integrate RC and EO ideas, but committed to reformed axioms.
ideas, but committed to reformed axioms. Is that is that like Doug Wilson's uh
Is that is that like Doug Wilson's uh federal vision? Is that his
federal vision? Is that his >> Yeah, there was there were some earlier
>> Yeah, there was there were some earlier guys uh at Westminster Philly who um
guys uh at Westminster Philly who um did some of that and and ultimately a
did some of that and and ultimately a lot of it fell in has fallen into
lot of it fell in has fallen into disfavor among a lot of the
disfavor among a lot of the Presbyterians.
Presbyterians. Um
Um so what's what's kind of happened
so what's what's kind of happened a new perspective on Paul has been part
a new perspective on Paul has been part of this
of this um is that a lot of Calvinists in
um is that a lot of Calvinists in particular reformed folks in particular
particular reformed folks in particular have been kind of pushed into this
have been kind of pushed into this reactionary stance
reactionary stance >> right they don't like second temple
>> right they don't like second temple period Judaism I mean Piper like detests
period Judaism I mean Piper like detests it in his response to in right
it in his response to in right >> yeah yeah like and So
>> yeah yeah like and So there's been this retrenchment right in
there's been this retrenchment right in in the 16th and 17th century forms and
in the 16th and 17th century forms and phrases and right no it has to be
phrases and right no it has to be exactly this and if you start pushing at
exactly this and if you start pushing at the edges of that and a lot of the
the edges of that and a lot of the federal vision people fell victim to
federal vision people fell victim to that. Um
that. Um but I I I think it was more ultimately I
but I I I think it was more ultimately I think it was a softer reformed faith. I
think it was a softer reformed faith. I don't think it was coming that close to
don't think it was coming that close to at least Eastern Orthodoxy. Now, if you
at least Eastern Orthodoxy. Now, if you want to find stuff that's close, reform
want to find stuff that's close, reform stuff that was approaching
stuff that was approaching Eastern Orthodoxy, there was a Dutch
Eastern Orthodoxy, there was a Dutch idealist school, idealist in the
idealist school, idealist in the Hegelian sense even. Um but in the uh
Hegelian sense even. Um but in the uh mid mid to late 20th century of uh Dutch
mid mid to late 20th century of uh Dutch reformed theologians and the Dutch being
reformed theologians and the Dutch being the Dutch they've never been as strict
the Dutch they've never been as strict as the Presbyterians about much of
as the Presbyterians about much of anything. Um but so like Anthony Hooka
anything. Um but so like Anthony Hooka stopped using
stopped using Latin theological terminology and
Latin theological terminology and started using Greek like borrowed
started using Greek like borrowed Orthodox theological terminology
Orthodox theological terminology because he decided that the Latin
because he decided that the Latin terminology was just too freighted
terminology was just too freighted by Protestant Roman Catholic debates to
by Protestant Roman Catholic debates to be useful anymore. M
be useful anymore. M >> um you read Herman Boink's uh
>> um you read Herman Boink's uh dogmatics he says at one point
dogmatics he says at one point so in the Calvinist tradition when they
so in the Calvinist tradition when they try to get at theosis they talk about
try to get at theosis they talk about mystical union with Christ
mystical union with Christ that's sort of the the turn of phrase
that's sort of the the turn of phrase Bing for example says at one point that
Bing for example says at one point that the unity of
the unity of uh a human person who is saved to Christ
uh a human person who is saved to Christ is as deep is the unity of the father
is as deep is the unity of the father and the son
and the son and he's so he's using calcedonian
and he's so he's using calcedonian christologology to get at something like
christologology to get at something like theosis
theosis expressed in some kind of reformed terms
expressed in some kind of reformed terms and they start talking about
and they start talking about sanctification in those terms too. So
sanctification in those terms too. So they're they're trying to get there was
they're they're trying to get there was also a Lutheran in the late 20th century
also a Lutheran in the late 20th century a sort of Lutheran partial appropriation
a sort of Lutheran partial appropriation of the idea of theosis. Um,
of the idea of theosis. Um, a lot of the stuff on that is in German
a lot of the stuff on that is in German still, but I I think Jordan Cooper
still, but I I think Jordan Cooper did some stuff sort of summar historical
did some stuff sort of summar historical stuff summarizing that.
stuff summarizing that. >> Ah, okay. Yeah. I mean, he definitely
>> Ah, okay. Yeah. I mean, he definitely talks about crystation and
talks about crystation and >> but but I think he also published
>> but but I think he also published something sort of looking at that trend
something sort of looking at that trend within European Lutheranism sort of
within European Lutheranism sort of surveying that
surveying that >> that kind of theological trend. I don't
>> that kind of theological trend. I don't think it ultimately was tren I mean
think it ultimately was tren I mean European Lutheranism is
European Lutheranism is kind of barely Christian at points, but
kind of barely Christian at points, but I don't think it was super
I don't think it was super transformative to their
transformative to their >> theology of the state churches of
>> theology of the state churches of Germany and Scandinavia. But
Germany and Scandinavia. But >> yeah,
>> yeah, >> um there was that there that did happen.
>> um there was that there that did happen. >> It seemed like a lot of interesting
>> It seemed like a lot of interesting things were being written right after
things were being written right after World War II, 50s, 60s,7s. I mean, just
World War II, 50s, 60s,7s. I mean, just it didn't matter what tradition you were
it didn't matter what tradition you were in, they were doing some interesting
in, they were doing some interesting things.
things. >> Yeah. Yeah. Even in the Catholic world,
>> Yeah. Yeah. Even in the Catholic world, it was like a lot of interesting ideas
it was like a lot of interesting ideas being swarmed around.
being swarmed around. Okay,
Okay, I think we'll maybe take one last
I think we'll maybe take one last question and then jump out for the
question and then jump out for the evening.
evening. Um,
Um, somebody
somebody is inquiring trying to understand
is inquiring trying to understand recapitulation
recapitulation but also the purging of both the wicked
but also the purging of both the wicked and righteous and the role of the
and righteous and the role of the Eucharist. in Isaiah 6. Would love your
Eucharist. in Isaiah 6. Would love your thoughts. So, it sounds kind of like
thoughts. So, it sounds kind of like there's more than one thing going on
there's more than one thing going on there.
there. [laughter]
[laughter] >> This is a compound question.
>> This is a compound question. >> It is. Recapitulation, the purging of
>> It is. Recapitulation, the purging of the wicked and the righteous, and the
the wicked and the righteous, and the role of the Eucharist in Isaiah chapter
role of the Eucharist in Isaiah chapter 6.
6. >> Well, so if you're it I'll approach this
>> Well, so if you're it I'll approach this by connecting those ideas a little bit,
by connecting those ideas a little bit, thinking maybe that's what's going on
thinking maybe that's what's going on here with them being put together in the
here with them being put together in the question. So um if we're talking about
question. So um if we're talking about recapitulation
recapitulation like St.as talking about Christ
like St.as talking about Christ recapitulating human life in connection
recapitulating human life in connection with what we were talking about with St.
with what we were talking about with St. Athanasius
Athanasius and uh atonement, right, and the in
and uh atonement, right, and the in incarnation.
incarnation. um that uh Christ sort of purifies
um that uh Christ sort of purifies humanity
humanity by not just by not the incarnation being
by not just by not the incarnation being viewed as the moment at which Christ is
viewed as the moment at which Christ is conceived in the womb of the Theotocos,
conceived in the womb of the Theotocos, but the incarnation as the whole
but the incarnation as the whole life of Christ.
life of Christ. And each stage of that he sort of
And each stage of that he sort of purifies
purifies that part of our humanity
that part of our humanity as he passes through it.
as he passes through it. And this is
And this is this is an important piece of petristic
this is an important piece of petristic theology that we don't get at much
theology that we don't get at much because of our modern view of time.
because of our modern view of time. that from their perspective, a person is
that from their perspective, a person is not sort of a snapshot of that person at
not sort of a snapshot of that person at some point in their life, but a person
some point in their life, but a person includes
includes their whole life.
their whole life. Right? If we're going to talk about a s
Right? If we're going to talk about a s we talk about a saint, what do we do?
we talk about a saint, what do we do? You have the saint's life,
You have the saint's life, right? Who he is is he was born at this
right? Who he is is he was born at this place to these parents and went here and
place to these parents and went here and this and then this is how he died,
this and then this is how he died, right? That's the whole thing is is sort
right? That's the whole thing is is sort of their identity and so
of their identity and so you kind of have to have that view of
you kind of have to have that view of the so I right passed through all these
the so I right passed through all these that Christ childhood young adulthood
that Christ childhood young adulthood adulthood right eventually come to my
adulthood right eventually come to my death and Christ passed through all of
death and Christ passed through all of these right and so when I live my life
these right and so when I live my life right in union with Christ then I am
right in union with Christ then I am passing through those with him Right?
passing through those with him Right? And I am purified
And I am purified through the life. As I move through the
through the life. As I move through the life,
life, I am purified. Right? And it's connected
I am purified. Right? And it's connected to the last piece, right? One of the
to the last piece, right? One of the fundamental ways that happens is through
fundamental ways that happens is through the sacraments, right? Through the holy
the sacraments, right? Through the holy mysteries, which um are not limited to
mysteries, which um are not limited to seven, but which you'll notice you pass
seven, but which you'll notice you pass through as you pass through
through as you pass through your life.
your life. right as you go right go to the back of
right as you go right go to the back of just about any arch dascese service book
just about any arch dascese service book for any of the arch dasces United States
for any of the arch dasces United States you'll find the service of baptism the
you'll find the service of baptism the service of marriage service of a funeral
service of marriage service of a funeral right [laughter] that's um and in
right [laughter] that's um and in between right healing services the
between right healing services the eukarist right we eat [laughter]
eukarist right we eat [laughter] these things that give structure to our
these things that give structure to our life things like the great blessing of
life things like the great blessing of waters every year in these annual cycles
waters every year in these annual cycles the sort of rhythms and patterns of our
the sort of rhythms and patterns of our life as we pass through it, right? And
life as we pass through it, right? And so those are the means by which God is
so those are the means by which God is acting in our life. God is conforming us
acting in our life. God is conforming us to the likeness of Christ, right? And so
to the likeness of Christ, right? And so the purification comes not just
the purification comes not just passively from receiving the sacraments
passively from receiving the sacraments but also by us living our active living
but also by us living our active living our active life in Christ. Uh and the
our active life in Christ. Uh and the works that God does through us in the
works that God does through us in the world when we cooperate with what he is
world when we cooperate with what he is doing in the world. That's why they're
doing in the world. That's why they're called good works is because they're
called good works is because they're God's works. And so just like in
God's works. And so just like in creation when God does a work he looks
creation when God does a work he looks at it and he calls it good. Mhm.
at it and he calls it good. Mhm. >> Right. Um and so that whole process so
>> Right. Um and so that whole process so and this is misunderstood by
and this is misunderstood by Protestants. You're earning your
Protestants. You're earning your No. Right. There's there's no merit
No. Right. There's there's no merit construct here. There's no earning
construct here. There's no earning anything, right? It's working out your
anything, right? It's working out your salvation. You're you're living your
salvation. You're you're living your life in Christ from birth to death,
life in Christ from birth to death, right? And uh he's not just sort of
right? And uh he's not just sort of walking beside you. And then there
walking beside you. And then there there's one set of footprints he was
there's one set of footprints he was carrying you, right? It's it's you are
carrying you, right? It's it's you are united to him,
united to him, >> right? You are living his life.
>> right? You are living his life. >> St. Paul can talk about for me to live
>> St. Paul can talk about for me to live is Christ,
is Christ, >> right?
>> right? >> U
>> U so hopefully that's what you're getting
so hopefully that's what you're getting at because at least it connected the
at because at least it connected the three dots.
three dots. >> Christ came to heal human nature and all
>> Christ came to heal human nature and all of creation.
of creation. >> Yeah.
>> Yeah. >> Yeah. There is one guy who wants to ask
>> Yeah. There is one guy who wants to ask a question. guy or gal uh as we wrap up.
a question. guy or gal uh as we wrap up. Um he's an agnostic and he and he was
Um he's an agnostic and he and he was been wanting to ask a question. I think
been wanting to ask a question. I think he's really asking the question about
he's really asking the question about the problem of evil. Um
the problem of evil. Um if God, you know, allows evil, isn't he
if God, you know, allows evil, isn't he the cause of evil in creation? It sounds
the cause of evil in creation? It sounds like that's his question, which by the
like that's his question, which by the way, hey, I used to struggle with
way, hey, I used to struggle with agnosticism and and and I was almost an
agnosticism and and and I was almost an atheist in high school in my young adult
atheist in high school in my young adult years and and so we relate to where
years and and so we relate to where you're coming from, by the way.
you're coming from, by the way. >> Yeah.
>> Yeah. >> Yeah. So, uh, love requires that you
>> Yeah. So, uh, love requires that you allow the other party freedom.
>> If I claim to love someone, but I use compulsion or force
compulsion or force or manipulation
or manipulation or anything else to try to compel that
or anything else to try to compel that person to love me back and to do what I
person to love me back and to do what I want them to do, I do not actually love
want them to do, I do not actually love them.
them. The love of God is greater than my love,
The love of God is greater than my love, right? But even I know enough.
right? But even I know enough. I know that it's evil to be a rapist,
I know that it's evil to be a rapist, [laughter] right? Like I know that as a
[laughter] right? Like I know that as a sinful human being. Okay? Uh therefore,
sinful human being. Okay? Uh therefore, God whose love is so much greater,
God whose love is so much greater, right? How much more, right? And so
right? How much more, right? And so for God to truly love us, he has to
for God to truly love us, he has to create us and allow us to be free.
create us and allow us to be free. And that freedom allows us to reject
And that freedom allows us to reject him. It allows us to rebel against him.
him. It allows us to rebel against him. It allows us to do things that he does
It allows us to do things that he does not like, that he hates,
not like, that he hates, right? Uh but allowing us freedom is the
right? Uh but allowing us freedom is the only way that he can truly love us and
only way that he can truly love us and and and allow for us to truly love him
and and allow for us to truly love him back.
back. You wouldn't say a parent who
You wouldn't say a parent who never allowed their child to make a
never allowed their child to make a choice and compelled them to always do
choice and compelled them to always do what the parent thought was right and
what the parent thought was right and wanted them to do was a good parent.
wanted them to do was a good parent. And you wouldn't say a man who loved a
And you wouldn't say a man who loved a woman who compelled her and forced her
woman who compelled her and forced her to love him back was a was a good man or
to love him back was a was a good man or a good husband.
a good husband. Right? So why why would you expect a
Right? So why why would you expect a good God to behave that way?
So, a universe that has love must [snorts] have a choice or freedom.
[snorts] have a choice or freedom. >> Yeah.
>> Yeah. >> Yeah.
>> Yeah. >> Yeah. Most of us don't consider tyranny
>> Yeah. Most of us don't consider tyranny to be good.
to be good. >> Right. Right. Well, Father Steven Young,
>> Right. Right. Well, Father Steven Young, it was a joy uh to have you on the
it was a joy uh to have you on the stream tonight and for us to even talk
stream tonight and for us to even talk about your book uh Bale, Biography of
about your book uh Bale, Biography of the Devil. So, definitely check that
the Devil. So, definitely check that out. Uh great book. Just got done
out. Uh great book. Just got done reading it. We talked a little bit about
reading it. We talked a little bit about that in the beginning of the stream, but
that in the beginning of the stream, but you should definitely get your copy so
you should definitely get your copy so you can dig in and see the whole history
you can dig in and see the whole history of that. Plus other great books that he
of that. Plus other great books that he recently came out with, St. Paul the
recently came out with, St. Paul the Pharisee, which came out with that last
Pharisee, which came out with that last year, right?
year, right? >> I think so. Yeah,
>> I think so. Yeah, >> I think it was last year. And uh
>> I think it was last year. And uh different different writing than when
different different writing than when it's published. And then uh Religion of
it's published. And then uh Religion of the Apostles, which is a become a
the Apostles, which is a become a classic. So definitely check this book
classic. So definitely check this book out.
out. >> It was back in 2021. Yeah,
>> It was back in 2021. Yeah, >> I actually wrote it I think in 2019, but
>> I actually wrote it I think in 2019, but COVID happened and so it got published
COVID happened and so it got published in 2021.
in 2021. >> Something happened in 2020.
>> Something happened in 2020. >> Yeah,
>> Yeah, >> that's right. Well, thank you so much,
>> that's right. Well, thank you so much, father, for blessing us with your time
father, for blessing us with your time and answering all these uh questions. I
and answering all these uh questions. I think it was really a rich time for
think it was really a rich time for everybody uh here.
everybody uh here. >> Yeah, sounds good to be here.
>> Yeah, sounds good to be here. >> All right, guys. Thanks for joining us.
>> All right, guys. Thanks for joining us. We'll see you next time. By the way, I
We'll see you next time. By the way, I will have a interview coming out
will have a interview coming out tomorrow uh with Dr. Christopher
tomorrow uh with Dr. Christopher Lockwood uh we're going be going through
Lockwood uh we're going be going through uh his book uh types and symbols. It's a
uh his book uh types and symbols. It's a mystical comment, Bible commentary, and
mystical comment, Bible commentary, and he's got a class coming out with St.
he's got a class coming out with St. Athanasius College. So, we'll talk about
Athanasius College. So, we'll talk about that tomorrow, but definitely take a
that tomorrow, but definitely take a look at that uh when that interview
look at that uh when that interview comes out. We'll see you guys later.
comes out. We'll see you guys later. Bye-bye.
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