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World Leading Psychologist: How To Detach From Overthinking & Anxiety: Dr Julie Smith | E122 | The Diary Of A CEO | YouTubeToText
YouTube Transcript: World Leading Psychologist: How To Detach From Overthinking & Anxiety: Dr Julie Smith | E122
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This content is an interview with clinical psychologist Dr. Julie Smith, who discusses practical psychological insights for navigating life's challenges, stress, and relationships, emphasizing the importance of understanding human behavior, self-compassion, and living by one's values.
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i can't stop now i can't i can't stop
doing this dr julie smith she's a
clinical psychologist with more than
three million followers how is she
dealing with stress pressure burnout
overload we're subjected to these kind
of ideals we're trying to do everything
perfectly and it's impossible those
things that that we end up doing
habitually are the things that work
instantly going to the fridge or
grabbing the wine or whatever it is and
actually the things that tend to work in
the long term are hardest in the moment
like sitting with it and feeling it and
using skills to get yourself through it
i just love that therapy it's great for
looking at the patterns and the cycles
that people tend to feel stuck in in
their relationship and it's incredible
how life-changing that can be for people
without further ado i'm stephen bartlett
and this is the diver ceo i hope
nobody's listening but if you are then
please keep this to yourself could you
do me a quick favor if you're listening
to this please hit the follow or
subscribe button it helps more than you
know and we invite subscribers in every
month to watch the show in person dr
julie smith i had some time to read as
much as i could about your story and
with a lot of my guests there's often
tons of backstory online about their
personal lives their upbringing their
childhood that didn't seem to be the
case with you and i think one of the
things that from getting further and
further down the road with your story i
thought was really wonderful was
typically when people are successful and
they reach the levels of success that
you have in their disciplines
we we tend to want to point to some kind
of anomalous childhood where something
traumatic or um really significant
happened that shaped them and made them
obsessive or
overly dedicated or passionate was that
the case for you what was your childhood
like tell me yeah so uh
no there are there's no um sort of major
trauma that that triggered my kind of
mission to do any of this or even you
know had a few questions recently about
you know why i was even interested in
psychology and and actually i've always
been fascinated by people by humans and
i read a lot as a child but actually
everything i read
was about normal people in normal life
situations and sort of development of
how people become who they who they are
and um that's always fascinated me and
and actually i i started studying
psychology because i found it really
interesting you know just um there was a
new a-level available at my school my
college and so i thought well that
sounds okay that sounds great let's try
it and
i was just fascinated by it and so i
kind of went with that and
went to university because everybody
else was going and it seemed like that
was what you do now and um
um
so psychology felt like you know an
interesting thing to do i had no idea
really what jobs could be at the end of
it i just kept following my interests
all the way along and and actually when
people ask me advice about
your careers and finding your passion
and all those things
that's the only advice i give people
really is you know
follow your interest do the thing that
that excites you or that inspires you
and you don't have to have this you know
epiphany moment that transforms your
life and makes you passionate about
doing what it is you're doing
um if you follow interest you're much
more likely to end up somewhere
um in in a job that that you love
having done this podcast for quite some
time now it's almost a bit of a
psychological i don't know um
um
it's it's almost a bit of a
psychological journey with each guest
but sometimes it also feels like therapy
and i'm starting to learn more and more
about humans generally the more and more
of them that i get to speak to
especially because i'm i tend to be
speaking to people that are considered
to be anomalies
in your experience having
understood the nature of the human mind
and how we think and how trauma and all
of these things in mood and decision
making are all intertwined together what
have you learned just more broadly and
generally about the nature of human
beings and how
and how we come to be the way that we
are i know that's a big question but
it's one of the ones that i i actually
i'll tell you what i've learned okay
because then maybe that'll give you a
bit of an indication as to what i'm what
i'm referring to here one of the things
i thought before i started doing this
podcast and speaking to people a lot was
i thought we were all just so
fundamentally different
and i thought that um
my job would be to find out all the ways
that all these successful people are
different but i think over time i've
actually learned the opposite like
fundamentally humans are quite predictable
predictable
in terms of how if you poke it like this typically
typically
a like x y or z will happen
yeah i think there is a sense of
predictability isn't there and and
and certainly
you would go with that in terms of the
sort of work that i do and working in
therapy there are certain patterns that
that can be predicted and that's where
you know your models of therapy develop
because you can predict that if certain
things are happening then it might
develop into this pattern and but actually
actually
while there is predictability
people will always surprise you as well
so you know even as i work
with people one-to-one in therapy
no two people are ever the same and
and you can never assume anything um because
because
you know everybody has that
unique story and the new unique set of
experiences that they've been through
and their unique set of coping
strategies and how they'll then get
through that so
um i think predictability to a degree
but never assume
anything because people yeah people will
surprise you
and how did uh a clinical therapist like
yourself you know what question i'm
gonna ask you to find their way onto
tick tock you've got millions and
millions and millions of followers on
there yeah it's not i mean we were
saying before we started recording tick
tock is typically a place that you
assume 16 year old kids to be dancing
you don't assume clinical psychologists
to be giving mental health advice
yeah absolutely and that's where you
know you talk about anomalies and stuff
i guess i have um
felt like i've been sort of swimming
against the tide in my um
um
in my chosen career and the area that i
work in in that it's usually a very private
private um
um
quiet kind of career choice you're
working with individuals it's
confidential you work with one person at
a time and
and in that sort of area of work
actually very few people
are even on social media um because you
have to protect your your own privacy
and confidentiality agreements and that
kind of thing so um
to even
put stuff on social media felt
quite scary for me because you know your
thought is what my peers going to think
is this you know what's this going to
cause for me
but every time that i had someone else
come in for therapy who
found the educational aspect of it so helpful
helpful
i would i would go home and and say to
my husband why do people have to pay to
come and see people like me to find out
that bit of information about how their
mind works so they can deal with their
anxiety better or so that they can um
you know function in their relationship
better you know there's some there's a
set of kind of knowledge there and skills
skills
that are taught to people in therapy but
they're not therapy skills their life
skills and people can use them every day
i use them every day to help me get
through everything life throws at me and
and
and i just felt that it was unfair that
that knowledge should be kept and hidden
away in the therapy room so
so um
um
you know my husband being the person he
has said well go on then do it you know
make it available and put something on
youtube or something like that and so we
did we kind of
half-heartedly made a really rubbish
youtube video
and um
and then at that same time he discovered
tik tok so he found the yet someone
recommended it to him he found it it was
full of kind of
fun dancing loads of really cool comedy
and we were sort of scrolling through it
laughing instantly just you know falling
down that rabbit hole of scrolling
and he said well you know go on
uh make something like for 60 seconds
see what information you can get into it
i said well then no you can't you can't
cut it down to that you know small
amount of time it'll be impossible
um and i'll probably get trolled out of
there because no one is talking about
that kind of stuff there were young
people expressing their distress on
there and talking about their mental
health from a personal perspective but i
couldn't find anyone who was kind of
sharing education around it so
um reluctantly you know got persuaded
and had to go and almost instantly um
the response was just overwhelming
people were
messaging saying they were checking in
every day to see what the next video was
or you know and
there's this real misconception as well
that that all my followers on there must
be this young group of people and you
know a lot of the messages i get from
parents and even grandparents who are saying
saying
oh this concept you explained was really
really useful i'm working through it
with my daughter or my grandson and it's
really helping thanks so much you know
where's the next one coming from so
i kind of felt like when we started it
was going to be this one-off thing like
okay oh you know i should you know
practice what i preach and have a go and
i assumed that we would kind of delete
the delete the account pretend it never happened
happened um
um
two years later here we are kind of
three and a half million of us later
so yeah i mean it there was no kind of
set game plan for it but it just felt
like the right thing to do it um to kind
of put that information out there and
see if people were interested in it um
and it turns out people were quite
hungry for that kind of information you
know people wanted not only to talk
about mental health but they wanted some evidence-based
evidence-based
sort of quality tips and knowledge that
that they knew were coming from a
i guess a good place
a couple of questions there then so the
first one is are you still seeing
patients one-on-one
yeah so i still have a few i had to stop
taking on anyone else new because i was
sort of bombarded with requests
and you know writing the book and
everything has taken up a huge amount of
my time so i've kept that really limited um
um
but uh yeah i kind of still i still want
to keep that going i'm just
i'm in the process of trying to work out
how to manage that around
doing such public things so yeah that's
going to be a real transformation for me
because that's one of the things i've
i've always sort of contended with when
people have asked me if i'd do like
one-on-one coaching and stuff my d my
kind of default mindset is well if i
spend an hour i'd rather make a video
that i think can reach millions of
people than sit with one person on their
own yeah so i was wondering what your
relationship was with that one-on-one
stuff yeah i mean in some ways i do miss
some of the one-to-one stuff that i do
or did do and
and so that's why i've kind of held on
to some of it
um because you just cannot be being
one-on-one with someone in a room and
developing that
depth of relationship with someone
where that therapy room becomes their
sanctuary and you know
that's an incredible privilege that kind
of work and i love it
but there is that there is that sense of
okay i could sit in this room and
you know work with one person at a time
or i could make a video and share this
idea with potentially a couple of
million people
which you know has become
a real passion and that i i recognize
that it just didn't interest me the
numbers and the
you know kind of business side of it
just didn't really figure for me it was
genuinely just
the feedback the messages and the emails
you know i was going through them and
and thought was
i can't stop now i can't i can't stop
doing this if people are checking in
every day to see what the next video is
or or asking for specific topics because
they're genuinely struggling with something
something um
um
if i can help in some small way
then i really should so
so
in terms of that feedback that you're
getting from social media
i've come to learn that it's not all
great as in i'm not saying the feedback
isn't all great but the general like
stress and pressure and expectation and
constant constant feedback can be
detrimental in many ways as well
talk to me about your relationship with
having millions and millions of people
that can message you at any time letting
you know whatever they're thinking and
how you process that yeah you know it's
been really tough for me actually
because i i'm naturally
a very
people following probably wouldn't
believe this i bounce around in my
videos like anything but um
i'm actually very introverted shy person
you know my ideal day is kind of
at home alone with a book probably and
so you know
the idea of of being public
and and being seen by people was not a
comfortable one it's something that i
kind of
endured for the cause if you sort of
mean for the idea of oh this could help
someone who's in need um so
so
that's something i've had to work
through and and do a lot of kind of
practicing what i preach you know being
uncomfortable for the sake of something
that i value or that i believe in um and
and
and yeah i mean i did a video on the
mental filter this kind of thought bias
that we all have
um and use the example of you know with
the kind of comments and and feedback
and stuff like that that you can have a hundred
hundred
positive comments and you will scroll
through them to find the one that's not
positive even if it's neutral you know
or go off a bit negative um because
because
you're built to do that you're built to
look for any signs that this is not okay
or that it's all going to collapse and
everyone's going to hate you and
and so
actually doing the whole thing has
has made me practice what i preach
because i have to because it's not an
easy situation to be in is that you're
vulnerable when you're putting yourself
online or you know as much as as i do
when you're putting yourself out there um
um
it's a vulnerable place to be and a lot
of people look on and think it's easy
and um
and it's it's really not no i have a
newfound respect for everyone who kind of
of
you know is brave enough to do that
what you were describing there that
scrolling through comments looking for
the bad one is something i think we can
all relate to because i will get 99.9
like great comments and then it'll be as
you say the one that's either that's
critical or that feels personal it's if
someone's like criticizing something
that i've like done i don't really care
it's when it's when they are criticizing
who i am i think i find it hardest and
so i wanted to understand why that was
and i started doing some reading and
some writing about this topic and
understanding the nature
if we go back in our like in our history
as humans of rejection and what that
used to mean when i was a human the idea
of being like just like kicked out of my
tribe yeah and the threat that that
would put me under if i was removed from
my tribe in this idea of rejection and
really like a lot of rejection this is
kind of what i came to came to the
conclusion of
when someone says something like that
it's almost like for me it feels like
a a threat of rejection a threat of
being expelled from the from the you
know from the tribe or whatever
um obviously not
obviously that is not the truth but deep
within me somewhere that desire to fit
in and be accepted by the tribe is still
there so having
millions of people being able to give me
feedback and some of them
seemingly rejecting me from the tribe or
saying that i don't feel or whatever is
difficult is that like that's a lot of
words but does that make any sense yeah
because the feeling comes before the
rational thoughts about it so you know
your your body has that reaction
before you're able to consider that you
know this isn't your um
your only community or this isn't your
family or people that are sort of you're
dependent on and that kind of thing so i
think the feeling will always be there
and it's always
difficult isn't it but then you can
override that with what comes next so
it's all it's not about never having
that feeling and and i hate it when
people kind of say online you know just
to stop caring what everybody thinks and
that is impossible because you're built
to care what people think of you and
and you probably wouldn't function in a
society that well if you didn't care
what anybody thought of you
it's about how you then manage it so
when those thoughts come along
about you know negative comment it's
what do you do next with what comes up
so yeah it's really about how you kind
of respond to
to the thoughts that come up after and
is it is it
in those moments of rejection
is it really like the story we tell
ourselves about what that rejection
means to us i'm thinking now more
broadly about romantic rejection my you
know i'm dating someone she says you're dumped
dumped
like the harm surely isn't in the
separation surely for me it's always
felt like oh well i got to the point
where i realized that it was more
steve's subconscious brain is telling
himself he's a scumbag
and not beautiful and not smart because
of this rejection is that really where
the harm is done like that
self-inflicted self-story yeah so i mean
rejection is difficult for everybody
isn't it but but certainly if if
rejection taps into
what we call a kind of core belief so if
someone grew up with
a core belief around being unlovable for
example because maybe their parents were
inconsistent in their care for example
so they
you know and you don't think about these
beliefs consciously all the time you
know they're not at the forefront of of
your thought processes
but they will influence how you feel and
they'll influence how you behave and the
choices that you make
so what happens is when we have a core
belief that is a sort of damaging one or
detrimental one we develop
um sort of rules for living around that
that help us to keep it at bay so it
might be you know if i can just be the
perfect um business owner and the
perfect boyfriend and the perfect dad
then no one will reject me and and
everything will be okay and so you set
yourself these these rules for living
that if at some point inevitably you
break or there's signs that you're not
gonna be able to keep up with them
and what that does is when there's signs
that you're not gonna keep up with those
rules for living
you then it kind of triggers that core
belief to come to the forefront and
that's when you get that rush of kind of
psychological distress because it's a
distressing thing to believe about yourself
yourself
and so that's when it can cause people
real problems when
when that sort of damaging core belief
is being triggered on a regular basis
for example maybe because it's a
turbulent relationship or whatever the
situation is um
um
and that's when you can work not only on
the present stuff but on the core
beliefs and
and looking at
how those are playing out in
relationships and how do you get to the
heart of understanding what your core
beliefs are because i went through life
and i think i got to about 24 years old
without being in a relationship and
and
when i asked myself what my core beliefs
were as it relates to relationships i
realized that they were heavily shaped
by watching my parents like toxic
relationship and this belief that
relationships were prison i because my i
thought my dad was in prison for my
entire childhood that's what i thought i
thought he was trapped in prison because
he was in a relationship with my with my
mother because they were very um
argumentative shall we say so
it wasn't until i was 24 and i think
because of journaling and writing and
really this podcast that i was able to
realize that i even thought that and i
was having this like avoidant behavioral
pattern where the minute i would pursue
someone romantically and the minute they
would accept my advances i would run for
the hills and try and dissuade them out
of being in a relationship with me and i
had no idea that core belief was in the
back of my control center of my mind
yeah absolutely and there's there's a
really fascinating therapy called cat
therapy actually so it's cognitive
analytic therapy
um just cat for sure but that really is
just a fascinating therapy where it
looks at the relationships that you have
when you're younger so when you're
growing up with with parents or siblings
or family and in those relationships you
learn how to behave in the world right
you learn about you know who i am
what to expect from other people um and
what to expect from the world at large
and then
you develop kind of survival strategies
or coping strategies in for example in
in a difficult relationship like that
uh you learn how to cope with that and
you have these kind of safety behaviors
and and as you grow up you're in a
different situation right you're not
um dependent on parents and stuff like that
that
but those survival strategies all those
safety behaviors continue and they get
played out in your adult relationships
and and i just love that therapy it's
great for looking at
the patterns and the cycles that people
tend to feel stuck in in their
relationships and how that reflects
those early life experiences that are
essentially outdated coping strategies
but it's really difficult you know if
something's been a lifetime of habit you
can't just break that by telling
yourself to do that so it takes time and
it takes practice and and you literally
kind of map out the cycle
so that you you learn to
sort of acknowledge it in hindsight
first of all so you say okay last week
that happened and that happened and yeah
i went around the cycle
and then eventually you've done that
enough that you start to recognize it
when you're in it so as you're about to
do something you think hang on a minute
i know what this this is predictable i
know what i'm doing and in that moment
you then get this chance this is a
beauty of kind of awareness is you then
get this chance to
choose whether you go with it and
sometimes you will and you'll go around
the cycle again and sometimes
you'll do this other thing that you've
already worked out you need to do
and you break the cycle and and then you
get the benefits of that and and so it's
this really kind of long process of
sometimes going around the cycle again
and then sometimes breaking it and
finding this new life that you can
create in your relationships and stuff
like that so and it's incredible how
life-changing that can be for people if
someone can't
afford to go to cat therapy or whatever
is there is there a way at home or
within their own life that they can
sort of achieve the same outcome i think um
um
i don't think it's a replacement for it
but i think definitely um
things like journaling and and
reflecting on experiences
and trying to look at patterns of
behavior so you know i always find that
i don't know when i'm with my boyfriend
we argue about this after i do this and
then you can literally sort of work it
out on paper just writing things down
what happened then what happened next
then what happened next how did i feel
how do i think they felt how did then i
feel when they said that and you're
really kind of just going through it
but keep doing that you know just doing
it once won't necessarily open up everything
everything
but when you keep doing it you can work
out patterns and the themes and and then
when you start to get you know
and sort of knowledge of that cycle
you can then you know begin to look at
what's different but sometimes it's
really difficult to just know how to
break the cycle sometimes that's a
really difficult part of therapy for
people is working out well where can you
break that cycle where where can you
exit and do something different and what
is that different thing because if you
knew right you would just do it so
um it's not easy and i think
you know maybe it's maybe that's another
book to write isn't it it's talking
about that relationship stuff because
it's so important to people
and and you know sometimes having
good friendships and and people that you
trust to talk through these things with
can help to give you that other
perspective you know kind of fact
checking some of your own because you
when you're in it it's so hard to see
the wood for the trees isn't it you're
kind of it's so much easier once you've
got stuff down on paper and you're kind
of looking at you've got that bird's eye
view and that's really the process of
therapy so if you can
um recreate any aspects of that with a
really trusted friend or loved one then
that could be helpful i don't think it's
a replacement for therapy and and the
model and the training but it's
certainly something
when you grow a big platform very
quickly there's a lot of other sort of i
guess psychological things to contend
with one of them is imposter syndrome
yeah one is one of them is the um
the the claim which will be leveled at
you i'm sure that you got lucky
how do you deal and contend with all of
these these thoughts um i'd say lucky's
pretty hard work isn't it you probably
know that um
um
yeah and and you know there's an element
of that i think you know there was
probably a timing thing for me in the um
you know this huge pandemic started and
lots of people at home tapping into
new social media platforms they hadn't
before um
i think it's been uncomfortable all the
way along
i think
because it's been new and i've been
it's very public and that's way out of
my comfort zone you know i hadn't um
um
i'd been in such a kind of small about i
live in a small town i had a small
you know one-man band private practice
it was just me and the whole reason for
that was that i could balance it around
my children and be the mum i want to be
it was all very kind of organic and
and suddenly this this thing started to
happen and become a bit of a roller coaster
coaster
how does it feel to know that the more
successful you become at what you do
the more
public you're going to become to the
point where you might be in the daily
mail every week
and and you know what i've had quite a
few moments
uh you know i've not even really told
anyone this but i've had quite a few
moments along the way
and where i've really really questioned
do i even want this and
and i kind of told myself that as soon
as that all that feedback nice feedback
from genuine people who were saying
thank you so much you know what's next
i was kind of waiting for that to stop
so that i could stop
because it's really not been easy you
know i've been i've got three small
children and it's really really
important to me to be present for them
so i wanted to
keep it as balanced as i could which has
been nearly impossible so i was getting
up at like five in the morning to make
videos for tech talk in the dark before
my kids got up and stuff like that and
it's not been
you know it's not been an easy ride and
so it's kind of you know it's been hard
work and
i think i kept going because i felt like
it was temporary
i felt like at some point everyone's
just going to think yeah this is boring
now and and we'll stop
um and we would have helped a few people
and that would be great i mean maybe you
could advise me on that well no i mean
because i'm literally going through the
same thing which is this realization
that i've had more recently especially
with the success of the podcast and
joining dragon's den
that um
and then like there was there was a like
a really critical piece written about me
the other day and it's like totally
baseless but it says it basically
implies that my last company was like
guantanamo bay or something
and i was thinking this is this is going
to only continue to get more and more
and more and i'm going to have to
contend with more and more noise
as i become more successful at the thing
i love doing so what do you what do you
do do you stop and i do feel like a
sense of mission in cause with what i do
as well so do i stop that
which feels in some degree a little bit
selfish maybe and just focus on like
making my life very private i can go to
bali and buy a big mansion and just
chill yeah or do i
carry on doing what i'm doing and
realize that an unavoidable consequence
of it is i have to log online every day
or i have to you know open my emails
every day and just see so much noise
yeah which which is difficult because as
you say i want to have a relationship
and i noticed specifically this weekend
when i was like
speaking to lawyers and doing all this
stuff because of this article or whatever
whatever
that i hadn't spoken to my girlfriend
and i'm like the thing that actually
matters the most to me the person that
provides me with the most like stability
and love is the thing as you said the
most important thing you say in your book
book
is the thing i'm rejecting
in for the sake of noise that doesn't
like you know yeah and i think that's
where it almost goes against the grain
again doesn't it because we're kind of
taught to believe somehow there's this
undercurrent uh in our culture that that
you should strive for you know um riches
and and
fame and those things because they'll somehow
somehow
make everything good and and actually
they make things harder as well so you
know while some people can really enjoy
that and they'll really
feel that that's where they want to be
there's there isn't this narrative where
people say it's okay not to because
those people are being quiet and going
off you know so and doing their own
thing so we don't hear that narrative of
it's okay not to be
extraordinary or it's okay not to stand
out from the crowd or it's okay to
um to want a quiet life or a private
life and
and you know i'm as much a victim of
that as as anyone else because you know
when i'm
not wanting certain sort of public things
things
i question myself you know what am i
doing am i is this right or and it's often
often
you know about your own values isn't it
and how you want to live and and i guess
all the time that you're questioning
that and reflecting on it
and making choices none of them have to
be permanent there's this idea that oh
if i don't take the opportunity it's all over
over
probably not so you know you can kind of
play around with it can't you you could probably
probably
have you know six months off to go and
hide away somewhere on an island and you
could come back and
and experience public life again
so that you could almost you know work
out what is it that i like and want
about each one and how can i create a
balance for me but yeah we just taught
that we need to just strive for
extraordinary and and out of the crowd
and and
i think we have to question that
where are you at the moment on this
topic in terms of deciding
you know how much of
you know how much attention and this
audience you're building you want to
build versus the the privacy and the
family and the the things that so clearly
clearly
much more intrinsically aligned with
your values
i think i'm i'm guessing there to a
sense in the sense that um
i need to stick to the reason that i
started in the first place i think i
have to keep that um
sense of integrity about you know i
started to be helpful and the thing i
loved doing you know the thing i loved
about writing the book
was researching and learning about
psychology and keeping up with the
research and that kind of stuff is the
stuff i love to do i love to learn about
people and then to share that knowledge
and so i guess as long as i'm doing that
and trying to
sort of protect my children at the same
time and and
and live a normal life then
then that'll be okay but all of these
things are a balance i don't think there
is a
clear set answer to any of these things
are there you know like you've had that
experience with the paper and and that's
made you kind of maybe step back a
minute and think wow how much do i want
this kind of thing and and it doesn't
have to you know make you do a 180 but
it can make you just acknowledge and learn
learn
i don't want to go too far in that
direction this is what i want and and i
feel like is that with me you're
constantly just edging from one sort of
position to another and you've got to
learn in them you've got to learn from
the experience it like on the job right
yes these are these are not lessons that
i could have learned from someone just
telling me yeah and in fact we've
probably both grown up in a world where
people have warned us about the things
we're experiencing and we didn't listen
we didn't understand until we felt it
right and if you try and convince some
ten-year-old kid you probably don't want
to be famous
you're right okay whatever
so you have to learn these things yeah
quick one for many years people have
been asking for a coffee flavored huel
and quite recently he'll release the
iced coffee caramel flavor of their um
ready-to-drink heels and i've just
become hooked on it over the last couple
of weeks i've been on a really
interesting journey with huel which i've
described and talked about a little bit
on this podcast i started with the berry
ready to drinks then i moved over to the
protein salted caramel because it's 100
calories and it gives you all of your
essential vitamins and minerals but also
gives you the 20 odd grams of protein
you need and now i'm balanced between
them both i drink mostly the banana
flavor ready to drink i've got really
into the iced coffee caramel
flavor of heels ready to drink and now
i'm drinking that as well as the protein
make sure you try the new ready to drink
flavors that the caramel flavor is
amazing the new banana flavor as well as
amazing and obviously as i said the iced
coffee caramel flavor has been a real
smash here so check it out let me know
what you think on social media i see all
of your tags and instagram posts and
tweets about you back to the podcast
one of the things you spoke about there
is um about values and much of your you
know much of what you talk about in your
book centers around understanding
what our real values are and our goals
and what we should be aiming for and how
to deal with certain situations your
brand new book why has nobody told me
this before which i love by the way
for many reasons i love it because you
don't have to read it all in one sitting
you can skip to the key
parts that are relevant to you as
as
as is the case with all your content
it's super
inclusive so it doesn't feel like i mean
i've got psychology books on my
bookshelf over there that are you know i
have to like i have to do one page at a
time and like have a massage
to get through each paragraph because
it's difficult but this is super
inclusive whilst also being incredibly
um important in its subject matter um
so values and goals what is the
difference what is the value
sure so
um the way i would talk about sort of
values and goals in therapy is really around
around
a goal is something that you
once you achieve it once you get there
it's done so you know your goal might be
to get through your exams okay exams are
over you passed done
a value
doesn't finish or end it's it's a
pathway if you imagine your life as a
journey for example it's a path that
extends the whole of your life
and it's something that you choose to
always stay close to when you can and i
think you know life will always take you
in different directions so sometimes
life will pull you away from a
particular value
but it's really about always evaluating
and knowing where that path is so that
you can pull back in that direction so
for example when your you know your
career starts to take over because it's
so busy and then you think oh i haven't
spoken to my girlfriend all week that's
you going
that passed too far away now i'm pulling
back i need to head back in this
direction because this is important to
me and and so it's a kind of you know
winding path where you you you're you're
sometimes you're pulling away from it
and sometimes you're going back towards
it um and something that i included in
the book was these sort of little values
check-ins that i would do
and and we do in therapy where we look
at okay just look at the different areas
of your life it doesn't have to be
rocket science doesn't have to be really
kind of
airy fairy it's looking at okay what's
important in your life you might have
family intimate relationships health creativity
creativity
you know lifelong learning career
contribution those kind of things and
then you could literally kind of split
it up into boxes and put in each box words
words
not about it's what's really crucial is
it's not what happens to you it's not
what you want to happen to you it's how
you want to respond to things how you
want to be in that area of your life
what kind of person you want to be so
let's say you were looking at your you
know romantic relationships
what kind of boyfriend do i actually
want to be you know what what kind of
partner do i want to be what do i want
to represent to that person and how do i
want to
come at difficulties how do i want to
sort of respond to problems that we face
and and you know that kind of thing so
it's all looking at
the attitude that you bring to that
situation in your life or that area of
your life
and you might come up with words that
that then kind of resonate or you know maybe
maybe
i don't know and maybe in your work life
maybe enthusiasm is a word that you just
hold close to you and that becomes one
of your values
and so
um you can then
and sort of exercises in the book
because you can almost rate okay how
important is it to me
to be enthusiastic in my work maybe it's
ten out of ten that's really really
important to me
and on that same scale then how much do
i feel like i'm living in line with that
this week or today
um two out of ten i'm pretty tired i
can't even bother today this job's
really boring today or whatever
and then so when you what you've done
those you looked you've opened up a
discrepancy between okay this is really
important to you but you're not living
in line with there
why what's going on not not in a way
that you can then be really self-critical
self-critical
but as a tool to say
um yeah my girlfriend's really important
to me i haven't seen her for four weeks
why what's stopping me from jumping on a
plane right now okay let's do that and
then you know when you start to do those
things and and you're coming back
towards your value
the the sort of rating for how much
you're living in line with it would go
up and so doing that kind of exercise is
really just a long long-winded way of
saying you can
look at what's important to you you can
just do a really quick measure up of how
much am i living in line with it and
what areas of my life do i need to pay
attention to because i'm not living in
line with it so it can be kind of quite
simple and a fairly quick exercise
really i am i was actually watching a
video last night and uh
there was a guy on youtube i don't know
how i managed to stumble across it the
video had like 2 000 views this is not
anybody anybody would know but he was
sat in his car and i found it really
fascinating because
i don't know whether i should say this
or not but um i found it fascinating
because he exhibited certain like
narcissistic delusions of grandeur in
talking about what he wanted to become
and what he wanted from his life
and um it got me thinking that
it's quite difficult to understand
whether something you say or write down
or aiming for is a value or if it's just
based on like an inherent deep childhood
born in security because if you'd asked
me at 18 what my values were i would
have said a million pounds a lamborghini
like i would have i would have
defaulted to these things because those
were the things that would have like i
know scratched my like
like
insecurities right yeah but as i've as i
attain those things and had more chance
to reflect on what actually makes me
feel good and fulfilled and complete i
would have said family connection you know
know
health two very different things right
one's cause-based one is just an
insecurity so how do we know the
difference and and you don't right
because you know
and it's always a horrible answer isn't
it but you you know maybe you had that
aspiration when you were younger
and and you went with it because it's
all you knew at the time
and then you learnt some
you became more wise and your values
shifted slightly and and that's the
thing that's why i talk about doing sort
of quite regular values check-ins
because depending on your life
you know stage and what you're doing
your circumstances your values will
change you know my values transformed
when i had children and
and
um you know probably sort of flipped
them upside down really and
and that's okay
it was i could never have known that
that would be i couldn't have
prioritized my children before they were
there anyway you know and um and for
example you might not have been able to
know that you would feel differently now
back then at that age you didn't have
the capacity to do that you hadn't had
the life experience so it's okay you
know there isn't this sense of there is
this right path and if you get on it at
17 you'll be all right you know the
whole process is a learning process so
it's okay to change direction it's okay
to discover
this is not where i want to be
but i've learned something here we go
let's change direction let's go in this
direction and now i've got the knowledge
of where i don't want to be
speaking of changing direction then a
lot of what's written about how we
change direction is you've got to make
this like big grand decision in your
life and then today you've got to go in
that direction as if it was like a 90
degree turn and this can be quite
terrifying for a lot of people because
it's not easy to do you talk about this
in the book you talk about habits and
things like that and how we make change
in our life what have you learned in
your you know your experience as a
clinical psychologist about how people
do actually make
meaningful change in direction in their life
life
um i think something i've learned is that
that
drastically and quickly you know
sustainable change is made carefully and
and
there's this process of it's not just
action there is a lot of kind of reflection
reflection and
and
then there's a bit of action then
there's a bit more reflection of like we
tried that how was it
you know do we need to change direction
you know we keep moving so it's a kind of
of
bit by bit by bit
but we greatly underestimate how
powerful and sustainable that can be
when we do it bit by bit and
and you know develop habits for example
and constantly re-evaluate and check in
on which direction we want to go in
um so i think something that i've
learned and certainly actually
in my nhs work for example this the type
of work that i was doing um
um
it took time
you know if someone's really poorly and
and there's a lot to work through
that takes a long time and that's okay
that's kind of how we work it takes time
to heal and things like that so
um i think i learned to sort of
acknowledge that not everything has to
be done yesterday
um you also talk a lot about in your
book about how we can turn
bad days into not so bad days i guess um
and this relationship which i find
really fascinating between the decisions
we make our moods and our our like
actions and behavior and how they're all
like fundamentally linked and i was i
was thinking um i remember
when i was writing my book
having a particular moment where i was
in like a bad i was in like not a good
mood and i was trying to understand
what how to kind of hijack that to get
back to a good mood do i go for a run do
i just focus on my actions do i have to
think my way out of my bad mood what
would you say to all of that i think
thinking your way of a bad mood
is is difficult
and and often takes quite a bit of
practice around using specific skills
and stuff like that um sometimes the
quickest way to impact on your mind is
through your body so things like exercise
exercise music
music
um using your voice like singing and
stuff like that things like that
can can create quite big shifts in the
moment but also human connection so for
example you know when you if you've been um
um
you know kind of pent up intense and
then or you felt unsafe and then someone
hugs you and you burst into tears and
it's that kind of shift of
of emotion and so you know things like
human connection movement music
you can utilize those to good effect you
know they if they
different people are different and so
you know one thing will work for one
person and something different work for
someone else you know i don't know my
husband likes to listen to kind of
really like old-school new york hip-hop
and stuff and that puts him in a great
mood it puts me in a terrible mood i
hate it so is it kind of you know that
everyone has a different um experience
of things like music or exercise
but if you can understand your own
experience what works for you
then definitely then utilize those to
create even small shifts in the moment
because a small shift can just change
direction and then other things can help
to kind of move it forward
what about sleep
how important is sleep in in terms of
our mood and mindset oh so important so
important and
you know that's kind of a battle i've
been going on because because you know
with this kind of work and the demands
of of you know creating content um
alongside having three small children
it's it hasn't been unusual for me to
kind of be up in the night with with
children and then be getting up at five
to make videos before i take them to
school and like you know just
it's not sustainable that kind of
lifestyle and but i notice
if i've not had enough sleep um for you
know a few days
it will impact on how i feel and it'll
impact on my performance and how
effective i am at work and what i'm
doing um and so you know
you have it's something you just have to
take seriously um
i think and something that i don't know
in our culture there's this kind of
shift towards
what's the saying like you you sleep
when you die and all that rubbish you
know that kind of well you will die
sooner if you don't sleep so you know
let's weigh this up so it's one of those
things it feels like when there's
more to be done than can be done
um it's so tempting all the time to
to ditch on that bit of extra sleep that
that you know would be good for you
um but it's yeah i think it's something
that we all have to just always remind
ourselves you gotta you gotta come back
to it and you've got to
you've got to give your body what it
needs do you feel like you've got that
balance now
i think it's always i think it's always
a tight rape isn't it you know like you
something will happen and and there'll
be a late night or an early morning and
that shifts again and there's no
recovery because you know children are
waking up early and stuff
i think while i've got a balance i hate
the idea that i might perpetuate this
notion that i've got it right and that
you know just do what i do because i've
got this perfect life and it's
absolutely not that way and something
that i think is detrimental you know in
kind of social media and things like
that that can can really catch people
out is the idea that you look at someone
online and you assume
that they have it all sorted and that
they don't have problems and they don't
struggle with normal human stuff that we
all struggle with
and and so i've tried to sort of
keep that honesty all the way along but
yeah these you know i mean these are
great tools and they really really help
but it doesn't stop life throwing stuff
at you
it doesn't make you invincible and i say
say that in the introduction this isn't
the key to a problem-free life
it's an arsenal of tools that you can
use to face those problems with that
will ensure you can kind of get through it
it
talking about all of that so you know
the success you've had and the impact
it's had on you know your life and
having to wake up sometimes that god
knows what time to film a tic toc video
um one of the things i read about in
psychology is this idea that our
motivation can start to diminish when
something becomes
extrinsically motivated so when some
when you're paid to do something your
motivation to do the task weirdly
diminishes even you know even if you
enjoyed it before being paid to do so so
have you felt that in your life that now
that tick tock and making videos has
become work
the motivation to do it
is is shifting at all it can do i think
there's the temptation for it to do that
isn't there when when things shift
um and that's why i think it's been so
important to me um
um
to keep in mind i had i think if i
didn't have that initial reason for you
know i wanted to share this this really
good information that's usually locked
away in the therapy room
i probably it just wasn't
me so it wasn't it wasn't
enough of a pull you know i didn't have
any interest in being kind of public
person that kind of thing so it wouldn't
have been enough for me to work that
hard on it
and it's
yeah as long as i keep that
that thought or that value in my mind
about you know sharing knowledge that
can help people with their mental health then
then
then that enables me to keep going
but has it shifted um
um
what in terms of becoming less motivated yeah
yeah
no i think there was a period where it
felt like just a grind of work when um
um
not the writing i loved the writing
but then there was obviously this
pressure to keep
you know putting content out there and i
can't just disappear for six months and um
um
and that pressure felt like but i think
that was a symptom of overload of just okay
okay
i've got to write a book i've got to be
a mom and it's a lockdown and we're
homeschooling and
i've got to get video on every day and
you know that that for me that's a sign
of overload and
that in turn influences your motivation
in the moment but i guess i'm aware that motivation
motivation
is something i can't rely on anyway it's
a feeling and it comes and goes so some
days it will feel like a grind and other
days it will feel really exciting you
know coming to do this and meet you and
that you know that stuff's kind of really
really wonderful
wonderful
and some days you know i'm i'm in my
therapy room on my own with the camera
going got to say something profound now
you know what
find something um so you know and i
think it's awareness of
every job has its ups and downs i can't
rely on feeling like it all the time i
have to remember why i started it and
the values behind it to keep me going
what have you so that term overload was
interesting because i've never really
heard of someone describing it like that
um typically people say things like
burnout or whatever else what is the um
what is i guess the cause and or the
cure for people that are feeling
overload because i guarantee you like 95
plus of people listening to this now
especially in the world we live in will
be feeling some sense of relative
subjective overload in their lives
including me yeah i think we're
subjected to these kind of ideals of
everything aren't we and you know um
for parents there's this kind of um all
these images about what it means to be
the ideal parent depending on what kind
of content you're consuming and then
there's these these ideas of the ideal
business person or the ideal author or
the ideal social media
you know whatever and
and because we're subjected to so many
of them
we we then just over extended we're
trying to do everything perfectly and
it's impossible and then we feel
terrible and we feel like we're failing
or we're at fault rather than
the culture that says
you can be anything you want to be
you know actually
it's okay to decide
this is what i want my life to look like
and that's okay
you know it's just it's okay for it to
be like that and and for people to have
goals that are smaller than others you
know it's um i think it's
it probably leads to a much more
psychologically healthy outcome
i kind of bring that that back to a
point that i mentioned earlier and i'm
probably just asking this for my own
interest but your
theoretically you're you're heading in
the direction of maybe having
20 30 40 million followers
yeah i don't know um
um
and then the demands on your time are
going be people are gonna be offering
you your own tv show and they're gonna
be asking you to write seven books on a
seven year on a seven book deal and
everyone's gonna want you on loose women
and itv's good morning you know all of
these it's gonna be constant so
how do you
how are you going to navigate all of that
that um
um
i'll probably call you and say stephen
what we're going to do
advise me
um i don't i honestly don't know and and
that's the direction of travel you're
going in right you're producing more and
more content which is going to grow your
audience even more your books as smash
hit four times number one sunday time's
best seller you're going in that
direction yeah and i guess um in all
honesty my barometer is always
my family so my children and
i will only ever do
um as much as i can do while i'm being
the mum i want to be i think and i won't
always get that right and i haven't
along the way there have been times when
i thought no this is too much i need to
pull back and um
um
and things like that so
i think yeah that's my kind of center
point really because that is
you know where my core values lie and
that's the most important role i have as
far as i'm concerned and so i guess i
will always use that as as the baseline
you know is this going to have a
detrimental effect on my family
or not um and what can i do within that
yeah and that's kind of a values filter
i guess yeah in many respects
these feelings we have these emotions we
have i've always contended with um and i
think society has a role to play in
telling us how to manage the emotions we
feel when we go through life you know on
one hand you have this
sentiment where it's like kind of just
shrug it off ignore it keep going
which doesn't seem to be possible with
like deep emotions actually seems to be
that you're just compartmentalizing it
in the background and it's going to
erode your brain from subconsciously and
the other one is that you know the other
narrative we hear is to when you feel
strong emotions to really like embrace
them and to like but that feels like it
can be a bit too consuming that i might
not get out of bed in the morning if i
really sit and wallow in my emotions so
what is the balance of embracing
emotions or kind of shrugging them off
and ignoring them yeah and actually it's
quite sort of complex work when um when
you look at sort of what happens in the
therapy room um you know there are
people who when they experience emotion
it's quite unsafe for them because the
coping structures that they've had
throughout life have been unsafe or
dangerous ones and so um you know we'll
never kind of advise people to just you
know open the floodgates and allow
everything in it's very sort of careful
and and
um there's a process of gearing people
up with the tools and i often talk to
people about this when when they're
thinking about going to something like a
trauma therapy right
so um while that involves
going over the trauma no decent
therapist would ever get you to do that
without first gearing you up with the
tools to be able to cope with the
emotion that comes up so um
for anyone who feels like they for
example kind of shut down emotionally
and sort of block it out
you want to open up gradually to things
and open up gradually to emotions that
feel maybe less dangerous or less um
sort of overwhelming in small ways
in supported ways as well so that you
you know you can manage it and it's not
going to completely um
be overbearing so
so
but i guess on a kind of day-to-day level
level
lots of people don't even recognize that
they're blocking they just recognize
um that
whenever they've done something at work
that's embarrassing and they feel awful
they just go home and crack open the
fridge and they're just looking for
anything or maybe it's go on netflix for
like six hours and block out the world
or gaming or
whatever it is
and and so often it's hidden in the
behavior people will say i'm fine with
emotion and but i spoke 50 a day and you
know it's a kind of
you know what
true what's the function of this and
that and the other and it's always about
looking at it with curiosity not
judgment but curiosity why am i doing
that what's the function of that what's
it doing for me and and often it'll be
some level of safety around something
that's uncomfortable but it's really key
that there's no judgment there because
it's something that we all do it's it's human
human
and and that's because our brains are so
brilliant at
taking over for us and doing something
very quickly that we need to make things
better to make us comfortable to feel
comfortable in some way even if it's
some yeah
destructive medication or something um
we have a behavioral response to some
stress or emotion we're feeling and
maybe not confronting i think i did that
a lot when people used to ask me how i
dealt with running this big global
business 700 employees around the world
when times got really tough i mean on
the worst days where there was no money
in the bank and payday was today those
kind of days
um i used to i used to i think i used to
say on interviews and stuff that i used
to come up with all this nonsense about
how i dealt with it and how i coped with
it but in hindsight one of the things i
came to learn was the only times i ever
got sick or my skin ever got bad were on like
like
two days after that those really high
stress moments so on the surface i was
kind of shrugging off and playing it
cool but my body
as the famous book goes held the score
my body would tell me even if my
conscious mind wouldn't admit it my body
would tell me and then even more
recently i've noticed that in certain
situations where i'm pretending
everything is fine
i'll notice maybe my eating habits or my
other habits get a little bit more
extreme and out of control and i and i
always thought i was invincible i always
thought i was some tough guy and i think
people followed me well i don't know but
i think they kind of they saw me as that
as being this kind of like you know mentally
mentally
perfect you know resilient character but
even i've noticed that in my behavior
and it's been so interesting to just pay
attention to it
it's sometimes difficult because
especially if you do
engage in these kind of coping
mechanisms shall we say a lot you might
find them harder to notice but for me i
don't so when i see any shift in my
behavior like i remember
going through a pattern where i was just
i was eating crap again and i thought
why am i doing oh yeah because of
that thing you've not addressed
that's playing on your mind every time
you wake up yeah and then my skin tells
me straight away i get some like
breakout on my skin um
um
men are the worst at this i mean so they
say they're the worst at talking about
how they feel
because the stigmas and stuff yeah
certainly i mean about 75 of my
followers are female
but saying that of the of the
male followers that i have they're among
some of the most engaged and asked
questions and um you know come up with
new topics and and
respond really positively in comments
and things and
and so i think there is a shift in the
right direction and i think
i think social media has had a lot to do
with actually it's enabled people to
start having a conversation that they
wouldn't dream of having face-to-face
with people
um and certainly i recognized that in
when i was just working in my private practice
practice i
i
i wanted to do it around the family so i
couldn't do it all so i kind of left the
nhs and i thought i would just work in
like school hours and i'll manage it
around that kind of thing so
so
um i thought i would have to advertise
and i never did and that's because
well therapy is a really private thing
when you're really struggling
when it works and you get better
and then you're doing fine and it
finishes and you go off about your life
and then you come across someone who's
struggling and they go
that really helped me try that
and so actually all of my work was based
on word of mouth
and and i think that's
happening more and more that people once they
they struggle
struggle
work out a way to get through it and
then believe in the in the tools that
they learned whatever they were they're
willing to share that and and because
they don't want to see other people go
through the same thing and i think
that's a bit of the shift of that stigma um
um
that that people are going oh yeah i
went through that or something similar
go and try that it really helps and if
people are sad at home and there's
something that they know they haven't
addressed that's playing on their mind
that they're thinking about a lot often
and trying to just kind of
compartmentalize and not
what would you say to those people like
because you know they might be seeing
the the behavioral symptoms of
not addressing that thing what would you
how do we how do we get it out of the
back room and
prevent it from causing us
behavioral self-harm well i guess you know
know
some people will go to to therapy
because they'll have access to that
others won't even consider it or have
access to it for whatever reason um
um
and i think whatever the situation
human contact and human connection
is is everything if you can find someone
that you trust to talk to
and even let's say worst case scenario
you don't have anyone you can trust to
talk to or you feel so awful about this
particular situation you can't bear to
talk to anyone
write it down
just use words use art whatever it is
try and get to grips with
what what could possibly be going on
here start reflecting on experiences
not with judgment but just looking at
what's happening what happens here
what happens before that what what leads
up to it that's a lot of what happens in
therapy actually is you know people come
in with a feeling oh felt this awful thing
thing
and then and then we'll look at okay
what led up to that let's go back a week
and let's work to it and you know what
made you vulnerable to that and then
equally what came after what did you do
did it make things worse did it help a
lot of those things that
that we end up doing habitually are the
things that work instantly and they're
addictive because they work instantly
right it's going to the fridge or
grabbing the wine or whatever it is that
they're addictive because they give us
instant relief but in the long term they keep us stuck so they're the things that
keep us stuck so they're the things that then get us in that cycle of
then get us in that cycle of the next time you have that feeling
the next time you have that feeling you feel even more need for that that
you feel even more need for that that safety behavior or that blocking
safety behavior or that blocking behavior because it worked so quickly
behavior because it worked so quickly last time and and actually the things
last time and and actually the things that tend to work in the long term are
that tend to work in the long term are hardest in the moment like sitting with
hardest in the moment like sitting with it and feeling it and using skills to
it and feeling it and using skills to get yourself through it so it's not an
get yourself through it so it's not an easy ride
depressed know
know i you
the 30-second uh hack the 30-second secret that's what this
the 30-second secret that's what this title is going to be of this video it's
title is going to be of this video it's going to be the 30-second secret to get
going to be the 30-second secret to get yourself out of any bad situation and
yourself out of any bad situation and everyone will click it and they'll
everyone will click it and they'll realize that there's a lot of new ones
realize that there's a lot of new ones um another thing that i get asked all
um another thing that i get asked all the time and i'm sure you get asked
the time and i'm sure you get asked about all the time and something you
about all the time and something you wrote about in chapter 19 of your book
wrote about in chapter 19 of your book is this topic of confidence it seems to
is this topic of confidence it seems to be at the very heart and core of um a
be at the very heart and core of um a lot of issues we do we we have in our
lot of issues we do we we have in our lives the lack of confidence
lives the lack of confidence but also it seems to be the cause of a
but also it seems to be the cause of a lot of good things that happen to us if
lot of good things that happen to us if we have confidence so
we have confidence so quite people always ask me when i do q
quite people always ask me when i do q and a's and stuff they say how do you
and a's and stuff they say how do you build confidence and there was this
build confidence and there was this really lovely quote in your book that um
really lovely quote in your book that um i really really resonated with that said
i really really resonated with that said confidence cannot grow if we are never
confidence cannot grow if we are never willing to be without it so when people
willing to be without it so when people ask you that question dr julie smith
ask you that question dr julie smith what do you say how do you build your
what do you say how do you build your confidence
confidence yeah so i did a video on this recently
yeah so i did a video on this recently actually where we
actually where we i don't know what we were thinking but
i don't know what we were thinking but we used kind of balloons with a tube
we used kind of balloons with a tube that went between the balloons and i had
that went between the balloons and i had this idea that um if one of those
this idea that um if one of those balloons was confidence and the other
balloons was confidence and the other one was vulnerability if you're only
one was vulnerability if you're only ever willing to be with your confidence
ever willing to be with your confidence so if you're only ever willing to be in
so if you're only ever willing to be in the situations where you feel confident
the situations where you feel confident then you're it can't grow it can't it
then you're it can't grow it can't it can't sort of grow beyond that let's say
can't sort of grow beyond that let's say um in the pandemic being at home feel
um in the pandemic being at home feel you know you're confident at home you
you know you're confident at home you feel comfortable at home but being
feel comfortable at home but being outside you feel vulnerable and so it's
outside you feel vulnerable and so it's really hard to go to the supermarket and
really hard to go to the supermarket and it's really hard to go out to a bar with
it's really hard to go out to a bar with friends now and if you're not willing to
friends now and if you're not willing to be without that confident feeling that
be without that confident feeling that you have when you're at home
you have when you're at home then
then your confidence can't grow it's not
your confidence can't grow it's not going to grow sitting at home and that's
going to grow sitting at home and that's where in therapy we talk about you know
where in therapy we talk about you know the most important stuff is the stuff
the most important stuff is the stuff you do in between sessions in your real
you do in between sessions in your real life
life um and so
um and so for anyone you know i often say to
for anyone you know i often say to people
people if there's something that that you
if there's something that that you really want to master but it makes you
really want to master but it makes you nervous do as much as you possibly can
nervous do as much as you possibly can in in manageable doses
in in manageable doses because the thing that you do every day
because the thing that you do every day will become your comfort zone so it will
will become your comfort zone so it will gradually become easier you'll become
gradually become easier you'll become more confident at your ability to do it
more confident at your ability to do it but your the way that your brain works
but your the way that your brain works is through repetition so the more you do
is through repetition so the more you do something the more your brain will
something the more your brain will get better at automating it for you
get better at automating it for you you talk about that same sort of the
you talk about that same sort of the importance of repetition as it relates
importance of repetition as it relates to anxiety as well and i guess maybe
to anxiety as well and i guess maybe this is the answer to the question we
this is the answer to the question we were asking at the start about how to
were asking at the start about how to deal with all of this noise maybe it's
deal with all of this noise maybe it's just more dealing doing more of it
just more dealing doing more of it yeah
yeah because it's getting used to the
because it's getting used to the feedback and what it means and what it
feedback and what it means and what it says about us and
says about us and how to cope with it
how to cope with it yeah you kind of you build up coping
yeah you kind of you build up coping strategies for it over time don't you
strategies for it over time don't you the more you do it um it's probably a
the more you do it um it's probably a mix of that and making
mix of that and making um clear choices
um clear choices based on your values rather than your
based on your values rather than your feelings
feelings about how much of it you want to have
about how much of it you want to have how important is it to make
how important is it to make decisions not based on how you feel
decisions not based on how you feel right now
right now um
um it's okay to do that sometimes right we
it's okay to do that sometimes right we all do it because we're human
all do it because we're human but what happens is a lot of people will
but what happens is a lot of people will come to therapy when
come to therapy when they've lost touch with their values for
they've lost touch with their values for some reason maybe life has sort of
some reason maybe life has sort of pulled them in a different direction and
pulled them in a different direction and they're not totally aware of that
they're not totally aware of that they're just aware that everything just
they're just aware that everything just feels kind of
feels kind of meaningless or i just feel lost and i'm
meaningless or i just feel lost and i'm not sure why i don't feel the way i want
not sure why i don't feel the way i want to
to and often when we when we act based on
and often when we when we act based on how we want to feel now or how we don't
how we want to feel now or how we don't want to feel now
want to feel now that's that short term stuff that will
that's that short term stuff that will keep us stuck in the long term
keep us stuck in the long term whereas if you act based on values
whereas if you act based on values you can live a life of meaning it won't
you can live a life of meaning it won't always be comfortable
always be comfortable but it will mean something to you
but it will mean something to you and i bet i guess when you're in the
and i bet i guess when you're in the storm of a situation the emotional storm
storm of a situation the emotional storm of i don't know you've just found out
of i don't know you've just found out that you've been cheated on or
that you've been cheated on or something's happened and you're you fall
something's happened and you're you fall into that red
into that red you know haze of just rage and jealousy
you know haze of just rage and jealousy whatever it might be
whatever it might be the the question i guess from what you
the the question i guess from what you said we should be asking ourselves is
said we should be asking ourselves is like what are my values and how would um
like what are my values and how would um how do i behave in line with my
how do i behave in line with my deeply held values in this situation
deeply held values in this situation irrespective of the fact emotion is
irrespective of the fact emotion is telling me to go in
telling me to go in yeah run over that person with my car
yeah run over that person with my car yeah absolutely emotions get such a bad
yeah absolutely emotions get such a bad rap don't they because they kind of um
rap don't they because they kind of um you know talk about things like jealousy
you know talk about things like jealousy and people say you know i just could
and people say you know i just could never get jealous because it's an awful
never get jealous because it's an awful emotion or something like that and and
emotion or something like that and and actually
actually the emotion isn't
the emotion isn't the thing to judge the emotion is
the thing to judge the emotion is information it's your brain's best guess
information it's your brain's best guess at what might be going on around you and
at what might be going on around you and your brain sometimes gets it right and
your brain sometimes gets it right and sometimes gets it wrong and it's your
sometimes gets it wrong and it's your job to work that out and so to look at
job to work that out and so to look at emotion with curiosity wow i'm feeling
emotion with curiosity wow i'm feeling really envious
really envious what's that about how can i you know how
what's that about how can i you know how can i work around this and work that out
can i work around this and work that out and how do i want to then respond that
and how do i want to then respond that to that how
to that how if i look back on this really difficult
if i look back on this really difficult moment in a year's time and i feel proud
moment in a year's time and i feel proud of how i dealt with it how would i need
of how i dealt with it how would i need to deal with it to feel that way not
to deal with it to feel that way not easy to do in the moment because these
easy to do in the moment because these moments happen quite quickly sometimes
moments happen quite quickly sometimes um and that's okay to make mistakes and
um and that's okay to make mistakes and then and then move on that's probably a
then and then move on that's probably a different subject but
different subject but the emotions get judged
the emotions get judged but if we can look at emotions with
but if we can look at emotions with curiosity instead which is a lot of what
curiosity instead which is a lot of what happens in therapy actually is being
happens in therapy actually is being able to to notice whatever's in the room
able to to notice whatever's in the room sitting with it looking at it with
sitting with it looking at it with curiosity rather than judgment that's
curiosity rather than judgment that's one of the things i've come to learn
one of the things i've come to learn from doing this podcast is is this idea
from doing this podcast is is this idea that we are not our thoughts and in fact
that we are not our thoughts and in fact we can hold them out in front of us and
we can hold them out in front of us and analyze them for validity but we don't
analyze them for validity but we don't have to like
have to like directly associate or identify with all
directly associate or identify with all of our thoughts because i think we all
of our thoughts because i think we all go through life believing that the
go through life believing that the things that are being said in our minds
things that are being said in our minds are us saying them and are a reflection
are us saying them and are a reflection of exactly who we are and that's
of exactly who we are and that's incredibly dangerous especially in high
incredibly dangerous especially in high emotional situations right yeah causes
emotional situations right yeah causes people loads of problems when um when we
people loads of problems when um when we think that the thoughts that pop into
think that the thoughts that pop into our heads say something about who we are
our heads say something about who we are or you know that we chose them in some
or you know that we chose them in some way and and that's where this whole kind
way and and that's where this whole kind of there's a lot of stuff online isn't
of there's a lot of stuff online isn't there about you know only positive vibes
there about you know only positive vibes and only think positive thoughts and and
and only think positive thoughts and and if you do that you're setting yourself
if you do that you're setting yourself up to feel like a failure because it's
up to feel like a failure because it's not the way the human mind works and
not the way the human mind works and thoughts will pop into your head and
thoughts will pop into your head and that's your brain offering up ideas
that's your brain offering up ideas opinions judgments narratives but you
opinions judgments narratives but you know memories all that kind of thing
know memories all that kind of thing and it's what you do next with it you
and it's what you do next with it you know and and that's where people can
know and and that's where people can really struggle with intrusive thoughts
really struggle with intrusive thoughts for example so they'll have a thought
for example so they'll have a thought that feels bizarre to them or feels um
that feels bizarre to them or feels um aversive in some way and then judge
aversive in some way and then judge themselves for having had the thought
themselves for having had the thought and try desperately not to have it again
and try desperately not to have it again and when you try not to have a thought
and when you try not to have a thought you're already having it because you
you're already having it because you think don't think about whatever it is
think don't think about whatever it is and and so
and and so you know you're just setting yourself up
you know you're just setting yourself up to fail if you think if you're trying to
to fail if you think if you're trying to control what thoughts come into your
control what thoughts come into your head but if you allow them all to be
head but if you allow them all to be there and then you choose consciously
there and then you choose consciously what to do with them next or how much
what to do with them next or how much time to spend with each one
time to spend with each one then yeah it's closer to winning this is
then yeah it's closer to winning this is a two-part question but have you found
a two-part question but have you found that people who have lower self-esteem
that people who have lower self-esteem have um
have um a more unhealthy relationship with
a more unhealthy relationship with failure
failure and
and then my second question to that is how
then my second question to that is how does one go about building their
does one go about building their self-esteem
self-esteem is it evidence is it evidence based on
is it evidence is it evidence based on self-esteem like even if the evidence is
self-esteem like even if the evidence is wrong is it based on subjective evidence
wrong is it based on subjective evidence that we've acquired from our experiences
that we've acquired from our experiences well you know um there's been a lot more
well you know um there's been a lot more controversy around the the idea of
controversy around the the idea of self-esteem more recently
self-esteem more recently and the field and
and the field and and you know self-esteem is based on
and you know self-esteem is based on this idea is your sort of evaluation of
this idea is your sort of evaluation of yourself and so there was a lot of work
yourself and so there was a lot of work done
done in schools and stuff years ago around
in schools and stuff years ago around getting kids to think of what they were
getting kids to think of what they were good at and what they could achieve and
good at and what they could achieve and and their strengths and what they liked
and their strengths and what they liked about themselves
about themselves and
and and you know high self-esteem
and you know high self-esteem can be
can be lovely in that sense but it's not
lovely in that sense but it's not always useful depending on what
always useful depending on what situation you're in so um
situation you're in so um it's not necessarily useful to think
it's not necessarily useful to think i'm great in a situation where i'm not
i'm great in a situation where i'm not doing great you have to be honest with
doing great you have to be honest with yourself and so for me a much
yourself and so for me a much more helpful
more helpful way of looking at it is to to to look at
way of looking at it is to to to look at it in terms of self-compassion so your
it in terms of self-compassion so your self-esteem can be low but that doesn't
self-esteem can be low but that doesn't mean that
mean that you know the story's over and and things
you know the story's over and and things are awful for you
are awful for you if you you can have low self-esteem and
if you you can have low self-esteem and if you then treat yourself with
if you then treat yourself with compassion you're essentially doing
compassion you're essentially doing what's best for you and like as a young
what's best for you and like as a young but let's say i had um you know teenage
but let's say i had um you know teenage kids and one of them wasn't doing well
kids and one of them wasn't doing well in school and so didn't want to get up
in school and so didn't want to get up for school in the morning because they
for school in the morning because they felt like they were just you know a
felt like they were just you know a failure at school so maybe their
failure at school so maybe their self-esteem around school was low
self-esteem around school was low if we went with that then we would say
if we went with that then we would say okay well
okay well let's leave school then let's let's
let's leave school then let's let's let's have a day off let's let's go with
let's have a day off let's let's go with you know um let's indulge this
you know um let's indulge this whereas self-compassion
whereas self-compassion or showing compassion to someone in that
or showing compassion to someone in that way would mean okay what's the best
way would mean okay what's the best thing in this scenario so what's going
thing in this scenario so what's going to be most helpful to you and your
to be most helpful to you and your future in this
future in this is probably working out what's going
is probably working out what's going wrong and getting to school and and
wrong and getting to school and and tackling the problem right so um so yeah
tackling the problem right so um so yeah self-esteem can be
self-esteem can be um a sort of tricky subject really and
um a sort of tricky subject really and that people put a lot into it but it's
that people put a lot into it but it's one part of a bigger equation i think
one part of a bigger equation i think i guess it kind of links back to the
i guess it kind of links back to the point about confidence which is is our
point about confidence which is is our self-esteem based on a bunch of evidence
self-esteem based on a bunch of evidence we've kind of collected from our
we've kind of collected from our experiences about the world so i might
experiences about the world so i might have low self-esteem as it relates to
have low self-esteem as it relates to going on dates because of some childhood
going on dates because of some childhood rejections whatever and i i took that as
rejections whatever and i i took that as evidence that i am
evidence that i am unattractive and i've held that's part
unattractive and i've held that's part of my self-story for the last 15 years
of my self-story for the last 15 years for example um i used to think as you
for example um i used to think as you talk a lot about in your book that
talk a lot about in your book that as many people do and as a lot of like
as many people do and as a lot of like books have kind of promoted that you
books have kind of promoted that you could kind of just wake up in the
could kind of just wake up in the morning and look yourself in the mirror
morning and look yourself in the mirror and say i'm a rock star i'm going to be
and say i'm a rock star i'm going to be a millionaire you are beautiful you love
a millionaire you are beautiful you love yourself and you could walk out into
yourself and you could walk out into your day and just be that person but
your day and just be that person but so clearly
so clearly and you'll know this from
and you'll know this from your you know experience many years of
your you know experience many years of helping people that it just doesn't work
helping people that it just doesn't work and i can say that something to someone
and i can say that something to someone they can read my quote on instagram and
they can read my quote on instagram and i just absolutely know it's never gonna
i just absolutely know it's never gonna work because there's some kind of
work because there's some kind of evidence that they've accumulated over
evidence that they've accumulated over their life that is way stronger and
their life that is way stronger and opposes nice fluffy words yeah obviously
opposes nice fluffy words yeah obviously words provide very little evidence for
words provide very little evidence for anything other than a prompt i don't
anything other than a prompt i don't know yeah absolutely so your brain works
know yeah absolutely so your brain works like a scientist with evidence through
like a scientist with evidence through action so you know if you want to start
action so you know if you want to start to feel better about yourself
to feel better about yourself essentially the best way to do that is
essentially the best way to do that is through action and doing things that
through action and doing things that not not kind of flood the system and
not not kind of flood the system and make you feel really vulnerable but
make you feel really vulnerable but something that feels a challenge but
something that feels a challenge but manageable
manageable and then you get this little kind of
and then you get this little kind of step up and there's something else
step up and there's something else that's a challenge and manageable and
that's a challenge and manageable and you get to step up but yeah certainly
you get to step up but yeah certainly with you know words are powerful but um
with you know words are powerful but um things like affirmations i talk about in
things like affirmations i talk about in the book about how
the book about how not to completely throw them out but to
not to completely throw them out but to be sure about how you're using
be sure about how you're using affirmations so if someone already feels
affirmations so if someone already feels lovable and they read an affirmation
lovable and they read an affirmation that says i'm lovable it it'll probably
that says i'm lovable it it'll probably make them feel quite good for a minute
make them feel quite good for a minute and they can soak that in and enjoy that
and they can soak that in and enjoy that and it'll be kind of short-lived impact
and it'll be kind of short-lived impact if someone has uh doesn't believe that
if someone has uh doesn't believe that if someone has core beliefs that they're
if someone has core beliefs that they're not lovable and they're trying to repeat
not lovable and they're trying to repeat i am lovable um it can
i am lovable um it can almost be detrimental because it sets up
almost be detrimental because it sets up this internal argument where your mind
this internal argument where your mind also chips in with the reasons that
also chips in with the reasons that you're not and then you start kind of
you're not and then you start kind of battling it out in terms of well but
battling it out in terms of well but what about this and what about that and
what about this and what about that and then you end up having you know you're
then you end up having you know you're in turmoil so it can have a detrimental
in turmoil so it can have a detrimental effect if if that person is genuinely
effect if if that person is genuinely really struggling with low self-esteem
really struggling with low self-esteem or low confidence and that kind of thing
or low confidence and that kind of thing so i think affirmations can be more
so i think affirmations can be more helpful when they're instructional when
helpful when they're instructional when they're about you know
they're about you know when this do this and it will help you
when this do this and it will help you get through this difficult situation
get through this difficult situation like you know sports people use them and
like you know sports people use them and stuff like that and help them get
stuff like that and help them get through high pressure moments but in
through high pressure moments but in terms of turning around core beliefs
terms of turning around core beliefs probably not so much on high pressure
probably not so much on high pressure moments one thing that i i did recently
moments one thing that i i did recently which i thought was very interesting and
which i thought was very interesting and got opened my eyes to a whole new world
got opened my eyes to a whole new world was i did um i did a breath work session
was i did um i did a breath work session okay have you ever done breath work uh
okay have you ever done breath work uh not a huge amount of it but um it's
not a huge amount of it but um it's getting more popular isn't it yeah
getting more popular isn't it yeah and i i just got really intrigued by
and i i just got really intrigued by this idea that breath can have a really
this idea that breath can have a really profound impact on mood
profound impact on mood how we're feeling and specifically as
how we're feeling and specifically as you write about it in your book anxiety
you write about it in your book anxiety yeah talk to me about breath and the
yeah talk to me about breath and the role it plays and how we can use our
role it plays and how we can use our breathing to make ourselves feel less
breathing to make ourselves feel less anxious sure so it's one of the probably
anxious sure so it's one of the probably the first things that i
the first things that i will go through with someone because
will go through with someone because you'll get people um who come along for
you'll get people um who come along for therapy and that first you know it takes
therapy and that first you know it takes time right you have to get to know each
time right you have to get to know each other and that they're trying to
other and that they're trying to communicate their story and then a whole
communicate their story and then a whole week goes by before you see each other
week goes by before you see each other again and actually people often go to
again and actually people often go to therapy when they're in a really bad
therapy when they're in a really bad place and so they'll often be saying
place and so they'll often be saying is there something i can do in between
is there something i can do in between sessions that's going to help me get
sessions that's going to help me get through to next week and so if that
through to next week and so if that person is struggling with really high
person is struggling with really high anxiety that one thing that i'll you
anxiety that one thing that i'll you know is very quick to teach that they
know is very quick to teach that they can take away is something like a
can take away is something like a breathing exercise because it's one of
breathing exercise because it's one of the quickest ways that we can um you
the quickest ways that we can um you know slow the anxiety response so
know slow the anxiety response so if you're anxious your breathing will be
if you're anxious your breathing will be fast and shallow so kind of
fast and shallow so kind of yeah and if you do that for long enough
yeah and if you do that for long enough you actually start to feel quite panicky
you actually start to feel quite panicky yeah and um and that's because you know
yeah and um and that's because you know your your heart and your lungs are
your your heart and your lungs are connected so your heart's going to start
connected so your heart's going to start pounding to get all that oxygen around
pounding to get all that oxygen around your body and you'll kind of start
your body and you'll kind of start gearing up into action
gearing up into action so if you can slow your breathing down
so if you can slow your breathing down you can slow the whole process down i
you can slow the whole process down i think i'd
think i'd mention this in the book i've certainly
mention this in the book i've certainly done videos on it is um sort of box
done videos on it is um sort of box breathing or square breathing um where
breathing or square breathing um where you just you can if you're out and about
you just you can if you're out and about and you don't want anyone to really know
and you don't want anyone to really know what you're doing if you're on a bus or
what you're doing if you're on a bus or a meeting pick something like a door or
a meeting pick something like a door or a window or something
a window or something it's kind of box shape and you start
it's kind of box shape and you start with the kind of bottom left corner and
with the kind of bottom left corner and as you kind of trace your eyes up to the
as you kind of trace your eyes up to the top corner you're just counting in as
top corner you're just counting in as you breathe in and it's maybe like four
you breathe in and it's maybe like four seconds and then as you trace your eyes
seconds and then as you trace your eyes across the top uh that will be a pause
across the top uh that will be a pause so you're just holding a breath for four
so you're just holding a breath for four seconds and then you come back down with
seconds and then you come back down with an out breath or four seconds and then
an out breath or four seconds and then hold and so you're just kind of
hold and so you're just kind of breathing in four hold four out for hold
breathing in four hold four out for hold for so and it's just one way of when
for so and it's just one way of when you're out to give you a visual focus
you're out to give you a visual focus um that can help you to uh just monitor
um that can help you to uh just monitor okay and now i'm breathing in now i'm
okay and now i'm breathing in now i'm breathing out because when you're really
breathing out because when you're really really panicking
really panicking actually breathing slowly can feel
actually breathing slowly can feel really difficult to do um so you can use
really difficult to do um so you can use that kind of visual but also more
that kind of visual but also more recently some great research has been
recently some great research has been coming out about how to kind of
coming out about how to kind of it's helpful to extend the out breath so
it's helpful to extend the out breath so if you can it doesn't really matter what
if you can it doesn't really matter what the numbers are if you can make that out
the numbers are if you can make that out breath longer and more vigorous than
breath longer and more vigorous than your in-breath then that's going to help
your in-breath then that's going to help calm that response fairly quickly why
calm that response fairly quickly why does all of this matter because
does all of this matter because so my girlfriend started talking to me
so my girlfriend started talking to me about breath work and she started
about breath work and she started studying it and um so i went along kind
studying it and um so i went along kind of reluctantly what is this nonsense to
of reluctantly what is this nonsense to this breath work class and the guy sat
this breath work class and the guy sat me there and started talking to me about
me there and started talking to me about the like prehistoric reasons as to why
the like prehistoric reasons as to why when we're in high stress situations or
when we're in high stress situations or feeling anxious our breath changes and
feeling anxious our breath changes and when someone explains it to me in
when someone explains it to me in scientific terms i buy in and the way he
scientific terms i buy in and the way he explained it to me from like you know if
explained it to me from like you know if you're on ten thousand years ago and
you're on ten thousand years ago and you're in the savannah with africa and
you're in the savannah with africa and the lions running towards you your body
the lions running towards you your body prepares you in many ways for that fight
prepares you in many ways for that fight or flight response and the problem is in
or flight response and the problem is in the stimulated stressful world we live
the stimulated stressful world we live in we're kind of like living in fight or
in we're kind of like living in fight or flight a lot of the time and i and so
flight a lot of the time and i and so after hearing that from him and it's
after hearing that from him and it's been practicing a little bit
been practicing a little bit i've
i've become really really aware of the fact
become really really aware of the fact that when i am stressed my breath
that when i am stressed my breath basically it feels like it stopped
basically it feels like it stopped like i it's so shallow and so now i
like i it's so shallow and so now i override it and it's been such a
override it and it's been such a revelation in my life to try and
revelation in my life to try and override
override you know because you almost you don't
you know because you almost you don't see it you don't know what happens
see it you don't know what happens but for me i get the alert which is the
but for me i get the alert which is the feeling of tension in my body and kind
feeling of tension in my body and kind of stress
of stress and then i can do something about it but
and then i can do something about it but where does this
where does this you know was he right is that where all
you know was he right is that where all this breathing stuff comes from in like
this breathing stuff comes from in like meditation
meditation well yeah because you can't you know you
well yeah because you can't you know you don't have that kind of
don't have that kind of anxiety off switch right or you can't
anxiety off switch right or you can't directly choose to slow your heart rate
directly choose to slow your heart rate but because it's linked to other things
but because it's linked to other things that you can influence you have to use
that you can influence you have to use those as avenues in to sort of slow the
those as avenues in to sort of slow the whole process down and and
whole process down and and and and that's where you know we we
and and that's where you know we we really underestimate things like breath
really underestimate things like breath work and and slow breathing because they
work and and slow breathing because they seem too simple yeah and you know like
seem too simple yeah and you know like we want something complex or you know i
we want something complex or you know i want to pay for it yeah exactly and then
want to pay for it yeah exactly and then we can kind of believe in it and
we can kind of believe in it and actually we have the power to do some of
actually we have the power to do some of these things that make such a difference
these things that make such a difference and that's really where
and that's really where this whole thing grew out of was you
this whole thing grew out of was you know people saying to me in therapy why
know people saying to me in therapy why on earth has nobody told me this before
on earth has nobody told me this before this is not rocket science and it's
this is not rocket science and it's changing everything and this is
changing everything and this is brilliant i want to tell everyone i want
brilliant i want to tell everyone i want to you know and
to you know and and actually there's a lot of the
and actually there's a lot of the messages i get is people saying i've
messages i get is people saying i've told my nan i've told my auntie and
told my nan i've told my auntie and we're all doing it together thank you so
we're all doing it together thank you so much this is really you know but
much this is really you know but sometimes they are just really simple
sometimes they are just really simple things
things that you then don't forget and you once
that you then don't forget and you once you've got that tool you've got it then
you've got that tool you've got it then forever you know no one can take that
forever you know no one can take that from you that's why i wanted to talk
from you that's why i wanted to talk about it a lot is because it's had a big
about it a lot is because it's had a big impact on how i feel in those high
impact on how i feel in those high stress moments and i just wish someone
stress moments and i just wish someone had said that to me earlier that and
had said that to me earlier that and yeah you're right we're searching for
yeah you're right we're searching for complex solutions to these feelings we
complex solutions to these feelings we have in life over the years from doing
have in life over the years from doing this podcast and just general research
this podcast and just general research it's become becoming more and more
it's become becoming more and more apparent that really what i need to do
apparent that really what i need to do is just to live more like a human being
is just to live more like a human being and in fact the world i'm living in is
and in fact the world i'm living in is doing the opposite of that it's making
doing the opposite of that it's making me live like some kind of cyborg
me live like some kind of cyborg that doesn't have emotions and
that doesn't have emotions and everything i mean you talk about i think
everything i mean you talk about i think it's chapter five of your book where you
it's chapter five of your book where you talk about the basics
talk about the basics and sleep nutrition connection these are
and sleep nutrition connection these are all things that exercise these are all
all things that exercise these are all things that human beings have always
things that human beings have always done and in fact the avoidance of those
done and in fact the avoidance of those things in the modern world is causing us
things in the modern world is causing us all of these like symptoms that we're
all of these like symptoms that we're diagnosing as
diagnosing as flaws or you know signs that we are
flaws or you know signs that we are broken and i have a chapter in my book
broken and i have a chapter in my book which is called just the journey back to
which is called just the journey back to human as if like at some point we took a
human as if like at some point we took a wrong turning and we we actually just
wrong turning and we we actually just need to get back to being humans again
need to get back to being humans again and i felt that in your writing but i
and i felt that in your writing but i imagine
imagine how do you feel about all of that this
how do you feel about all of that this idea that we've kind of yeah and what it
idea that we've kind of yeah and what it is to be human yeah because it feels
is to be human yeah because it feels like a it feels like you have to battle
like a it feels like you have to battle to do normal stuff
to do normal stuff you know to do human things exactly
you know to do human things exactly and it's and it is because of i guess
and it's and it is because of i guess the sorts of media that we consume
the sorts of media that we consume that tell us you know you've got to do
that tell us you know you've got to do more and be more and have more and earn
more and be more and have more and earn more and spend more and and and it's
more and spend more and and and it's sort of this treadmill that keeps
sort of this treadmill that keeps speeding up and everyone's going why am
speeding up and everyone's going why am i so worn out like what's going on and
i so worn out like what's going on and then they blame themselves for feeling
then they blame themselves for feeling worn out when actually it's this
worn out when actually it's this environment that
environment that and all these kind of pressures that
and all these kind of pressures that sort of make that worse and so yeah i
sort of make that worse and so yeah i mean and that's where you know when you
mean and that's where you know when you ask me about kind of you know what's
ask me about kind of you know what's next and and and how do you cope with
next and and and how do you cope with all that it always has to come back to
all that it always has to come back to uh you know we're in privileged
uh you know we're in privileged positions right where
positions right where it can feel like you don't have choice
it can feel like you don't have choice you have to just keep going but actually
you have to just keep going but actually the thing about privilege is that you
the thing about privilege is that you then get to choose
then get to choose what's going to be most healthy for me
what's going to be most healthy for me here what's going to be most meaningful
here what's going to be most meaningful and and give me the life that i want to
and and give me the life that i want to have and and so that you're basing your
have and and so that you're basing your decisions on on your own values rather
decisions on on your own values rather than somebody else's it's very true
than somebody else's it's very true and i think that's maybe one of the real
and i think that's maybe one of the real the thoughts that is quite liberating
the thoughts that is quite liberating from
from the potential stress of the situation
the potential stress of the situation which is it is always a choice and you
which is it is always a choice and you have so much you'd rather probably
have so much you'd rather probably rather have the choice
rather have the choice yeah right because else you'd probably
yeah right because else you'd probably still be striving to to get to a
still be striving to to get to a position of privilege and choice um yeah
position of privilege and choice um yeah because there are people that don't have
because there are people that don't have choice right and that's where something
choice right and that's where something else about in the structure in the book
else about in the structure in the book is about how
is about how people talk about just eliminate your
people talk about just eliminate your stress and yeah okay you know say that
stress and yeah okay you know say that to the single mom who works 40 hours a
to the single mom who works 40 hours a week to keep a roof over a kid's head or
week to keep a roof over a kid's head or you know that lots of stresses can't be
you know that lots of stresses can't be chosen or you know maybe you're waiting
chosen or you know maybe you're waiting for uh results from the doctor about
for uh results from the doctor about some tests you had and the stress is
some tests you had and the stress is just hanging over you know those sorts
just hanging over you know those sorts of stresses you don't choose those
of stresses you don't choose those they're a normal part of life and there
they're a normal part of life and there are tools to kind of deal with those um
are tools to kind of deal with those um but when there is you know there will be
but when there is you know there will be certain parts of life
certain parts of life where we can say yes or no and that's
where we can say yes or no and that's when we need to exercise that control i
when we need to exercise that control i think
think death
death that was a big
that was a big turning point it's not a transition
turning point it's not a transition but you talk about death in your book
but you talk about death in your book and it's funny because i sat here with
and it's funny because i sat here with my previous guest and he talked about
my previous guest and he talked about um the importance of
um the importance of accepting your own kind of mortality
accepting your own kind of mortality and the change that can have on you
and the change that can have on you what is your what is your position on
what is your what is your position on this topic do you think it's important
this topic do you think it's important to understand that you're going to die
to understand that you're going to die and if so why
and if so why yeah and it's something i kind of got i
yeah and it's something i kind of got i you know um up to my neck and when i was
you know um up to my neck and when i was sort of researching for the book and
sort of researching for the book and stuff like that because i included a
stuff like that because i included a chapter on grief
chapter on grief and and loss and
and and loss and and then i started to um kind of read
and then i started to um kind of read more widely about you know
more widely about you know dealing with
dealing with your own impending death and and you
your own impending death and and you know for people who have um sort of
know for people who have um sort of illnesses and things like that when they
illnesses and things like that when they know that death is coming and so i just
know that death is coming and so i just got really kind of into all that stuff
got really kind of into all that stuff and there's some great work out there by
and there's some great work out there by some brilliant people around
some brilliant people around you know dealing with the idea that
you know dealing with the idea that it's all going to end and the idea that
it's all going to end and the idea that that can
that can be a source of meaning
be a source of meaning it is a source of fear right everybody
it is a source of fear right everybody has to deal with that fear um but it can
has to deal with that fear um but it can also be a source of
also be a source of uh
uh of meaning in life today so it can be a
of meaning in life today so it can be a reason why
reason why you get up and you go with that value of
you get up and you go with that value of enthusiasm today or it can be a source
enthusiasm today or it can be a source of uh you know that's why i get up and i
of uh you know that's why i get up and i practice gratitude or why i always tell
practice gratitude or why i always tell my girlfriend i love her every day or
my girlfriend i love her every day or whatever it is
whatever it is that it can can also be
that it can can also be a way to live well
a way to live well there's a book called influence which
there's a book called influence which and one of the five principles of
and one of the five principles of influence is this idea of scarcity it's
influence is this idea of scarcity it's really a marketing book it tells you how
really a marketing book it tells you how to make
to make people believe things have more value
people believe things have more value and one of the ideas in it is that you
and one of the ideas in it is that you make you convince them that it's scarce
make you convince them that it's scarce which is why if you go on booking.com
which is why if you go on booking.com it'll say one hotel room left 75 people
it'll say one hotel room left 75 people just looked at this hotel they're about
just looked at this hotel they're about to book it quick and um that convinces
to book it quick and um that convinces people that the thing is of more value
people that the thing is of more value and i think for me
and i think for me death does that i actually have a
death does that i actually have a sand timer
sand timer over there on that next to that little
over there on that next to that little white head for that very reason and i
white head for that very reason and i talk about it in my book a lot because i
talk about it in my book a lot because i do believe that most of us don't go
do believe that most of us don't go through life actually believing or
through life actually believing or realizing that things are finite and
realizing that things are finite and once we do
once we do we realize that they're scarce then we
we realize that they're scarce then we will attribute more value to them which
will attribute more value to them which means that every moment is so
means that every moment is so unbelievably more precious
unbelievably more precious and that can help you filter out you
and that can help you filter out you know the decisions you're making there's
know the decisions you're making there's so much there's so many studies been
so much there's so many studies been done when they interviewed people on
done when they interviewed people on their death beds and asked them about
their death beds and asked them about what really mattered and i want to get
what really mattered and i want to get to the point every single day where i'm
to the point every single day where i'm making my decisions from the lens of
making my decisions from the lens of death bed regret
death bed regret if that makes sense i think that will
if that makes sense i think that will probably keep me more in line with that
probably keep me more in line with that those values you talk about yeah
those values you talk about yeah absolutely and actually um it's an
absolutely and actually um it's an exercise that's done in acceptance and
exercise that's done in acceptance and commitment therapy where um you talk to
commitment therapy where um you talk to people about um let's say you know you
people about um let's say you know you reach the ripe old age of 104 and you're
reach the ripe old age of 104 and you're sat in your arm chair and you're looking
sat in your arm chair and you're looking back on the chapter of your life that is
back on the chapter of your life that is to come
to come what would it need to include for you to
what would it need to include for you to be looking back smiling and feeling like
be looking back smiling and feeling like yeah did it right there that was that
yeah did it right there that was that was how i wanted it to go so not
was how i wanted it to go so not necessarily what you would want to
necessarily what you would want to happen to you but again it's how you
happen to you but again it's how you would want to live and the attitude that
would want to live and the attitude that you would want to face life with how
you would want to face life with how would you answer that question
would you answer that question me personally
me personally if i can if i can touch people's lives
if i can if i can touch people's lives with something that's positive
with something that's positive in a world where you can you know your
in a world where you can you know your life can be touched by so many things
life can be touched by so many things that aren't positive
that aren't positive while at the same time
while at the same time still being the parent that i want to be
still being the parent that i want to be and being
and being present in my children's lives and being
present in my children's lives and being a positive impact for them
a positive impact for them um gearing them up for their own
um gearing them up for their own adventures then
adventures then yeah that'll be prickly for them
in the book you say when it comes to a happy life relationships beat money fame
happy life relationships beat money fame social class and all the things we're
social class and all the things we're told to put eff into i talked about the
told to put eff into i talked about the neglecting my relationship over the
neglecting my relationship over the weekend because of
weekend because of some of these things you've described
some of these things you've described here
here um so from your from your practice what
um so from your from your practice what have you come to to know about the
have you come to to know about the importance of relationships whether
importance of relationships whether romantic or platonic
romantic or platonic you know i don't think there is
you know i don't think there is a therapy session i've ever
a therapy session i've ever conducted without
conducted without it
it coming to relationships at some point
coming to relationships at some point you know it is the fabric of us isn't it
you know it is the fabric of us isn't it it's what we
it's what we um
um it's what we kind of live for in many
it's what we kind of live for in many ways and
ways and and that's why i included it in the
and that's why i included it in the section around meaningful life because
section around meaningful life because um i mean i i touch on it and it's such
um i mean i i touch on it and it's such a huge subject that you know you could
a huge subject that you know you could write reams and reams of books on
write reams and reams of books on relationships because they feel so
relationships because they feel so complex sometimes don't they right we
complex sometimes don't they right we just we're constantly making mistakes
just we're constantly making mistakes and not getting it right and having to
and not getting it right and having to sort of you know reevaluate and shift
sort of you know reevaluate and shift and
and and
and no one again it's one of those things no
no one again it's one of those things no one gives you a manual for it and yet
one gives you a manual for it and yet when it's going right
when it's going right life feels incredible and when they're
life feels incredible and when they're going wrong
going wrong everything feels like it's falling apart
everything feels like it's falling apart and so
and so you know i think
you know i think it's it's an area certainly that i want
it's it's an area certainly that i want to move into more and more because i see
to move into more and more because i see the value of it and i see
the value of it and i see how it just makes all the difference for
how it just makes all the difference for so many people you know human connection
so many people you know human connection is our sort of inbuilt
is our sort of inbuilt stress resilience mechanism if you like
stress resilience mechanism if you like so
so you've only got if you're feeling
you've only got if you're feeling something if you're feeling high in
something if you're feeling high in stress for example
stress for example and you have a good quality human
and you have a good quality human connection or contact with someone
connection or contact with someone changes the way that your body deals
changes the way that your body deals with that stress i mean that's
with that stress i mean that's that's no tablet that's no
that's no tablet that's no nothing it's it's
nothing it's it's um it's how we're built and it's we're
um it's how we're built and it's we're supposed to live in groups together and
supposed to live in groups together and look after each other and
look after each other and and even in our kind of very
and even in our kind of very individualist society where it
individualist society where it makes us value other things and pulls us
makes us value other things and pulls us away
away we have to keep reminding ourselves of
we have to keep reminding ourselves of what it means to be human being i think
what it means to be human being i think although life doesn't give you a manual
although life doesn't give you a manual for how to navigate a relationship
for how to navigate a relationship social media at least
social media at least sets an expectation
sets an expectation of how a relationship should be
of how a relationship should be specifically a romantic relationship and
specifically a romantic relationship and this causes a lot of problems right so
this causes a lot of problems right so we don't get the manual but we get this
we don't get the manual but we get this expectation yeah perfect all the time
expectation yeah perfect all the time right right and you talk about this and
right right and you talk about this and you there's a section in your book about
you there's a section in your book about the relationship myths which i was
the relationship myths which i was reading through and the two that i
reading through and the two that i really wanted to touch on was the first
really wanted to touch on was the first one you've kind of alluded to there
one you've kind of alluded to there which is
which is um love shouldn't be hard
um love shouldn't be hard and i in my
and i in my in my current relationship we ended up
in my current relationship we ended up actually breaking up because we
actually breaking up because we encountered an issue and i don't think
encountered an issue and i don't think the world at my very very naive age of
the world at my very very naive age of 24 i think at the time
24 i think at the time told me that relationships had issues
told me that relationships had issues i'd only ever seen from social media
i'd only ever seen from social media perfection so
perfection so i the minute my relationship was good
i the minute my relationship was good but challenging i thought it was
but challenging i thought it was disposable right because social media
disposable right because social media has made perfect look so normal yeah
has made perfect look so normal yeah and the second one is um
and the second one is um which i find really interesting and
which i find really interesting and people find this one quite controversial
people find this one quite controversial which is this idea that you don't always
which is this idea that you don't always need to be together
need to be together me and my girlfriend are very very good
me and my girlfriend are very very good like we're very very comfortable with
like we're very very comfortable with each other to the point that and people
each other to the point that and people will find this a bit shocking
will find this a bit shocking if we go away somewhere like we go to
if we go away somewhere like we go to another country
another country we will often have separate bedrooms
we will often have separate bedrooms and because she will have her own space
and because she will have her own space where she sets up all of her stuff she
where she sets up all of her stuff she likes to meditate and put her crystals
likes to meditate and put her crystals out and all of this stuff and i'll have
out and all of this stuff and i'll have my own room
my own room my own bedroom and then we'll sleep in
my own bedroom and then we'll sleep in the same bed but we have our own space
the same bed but we have our own space and also even if we go on holiday for a
and also even if we go on holiday for a month we might i might say to a halfway
month we might i might say to a halfway through the holiday babe i'm going to go
through the holiday babe i'm going to go in that direction for five days i'll see
in that direction for five days i'll see you then i'll see you in five days time
you then i'll see you in five days time and we've got to a point where we're
and we've got to a point where we're really comfortable with that but i can't
really comfortable with that but i can't think of another relationship i've been
think of another relationship i've been in where any of those things would have
in where any of those things would have been greeted with anything but like
been greeted with anything but like anger or like what
anger or like what you know what i mean yeah and i think
you know what i mean yeah and i think sometimes that that response from people
sometimes that that response from people comes out of our insecurity about what's
comes out of our insecurity about what's right because nobody sort of talks about
right because nobody sort of talks about these things or they haven't
these things or they haven't historically and so nobody really knows
historically and so nobody really knows if the way they're having their
if the way they're having their relationship is the same as anybody else
relationship is the same as anybody else and and are we getting it right or wrong
and and are we getting it right or wrong and and so
and and so often there can be these knee-jerk
often there can be these knee-jerk reactions from people about oh that oh
reactions from people about oh that oh that doesn't sound good because that's
that doesn't sound good because that's not what i know to be true and
not what i know to be true and and you know
and you know then it becomes you know diversity it
then it becomes you know diversity it becomes sort of um difficult for people
becomes sort of um difficult for people to handle them doesn't it if your
to handle them doesn't it if your experience is different am i then
experience is different am i then am i wrong um and people get really kind
am i wrong um and people get really kind of upset about that and this probably is
of upset about that and this probably is destroying more relationships than we
destroying more relationships than we know this expert this social fake
know this expert this social fake expectation of how it should be going
expectation of how it should be going for you whereas in fact much of what i
for you whereas in fact much of what i read about in your in your book and even
read about in your in your book and even this idea of having more words to
this idea of having more words to describe how you feel treating these
describe how you feel treating these things in a non-binary way but just like
things in a non-binary way but just like reflecting on how how do i feel not has
reflecting on how how do i feel not has he ticked the box of sending me roses
he ticked the box of sending me roses today but how do i feel yeah this seems
today but how do i feel yeah this seems to be a much better way to navigate
to be a much better way to navigate through life yeah yeah absolutely and
through life yeah yeah absolutely and going with um what you're dealing with
going with um what you're dealing with at that point rather than the world says
at that point rather than the world says we should be having dinner tonight and
we should be having dinner tonight and you should be buying me ten roses um
you should be buying me ten roses um therefore we we're getting this really
therefore we we're getting this really wrong if it's not happening and um there
wrong if it's not happening and um there can be all
can be all manner of reasons why that might not be
manner of reasons why that might not be the case at any one point and and that's
the case at any one point and and that's okay isn't it but yeah it's looking at
okay isn't it but yeah it's looking at if i'm not feeling loved
if i'm not feeling loved is it just about because i've set a
is it just about because i've set a standard and i've i've applied some
standard and i've i've applied some standard to this other person that
standard to this other person that they're not fulfilling
they're not fulfilling or um or am i feeling unloved generally
or um or am i feeling unloved generally you know is this one
you know is this one is this the sort of last straw type
is this the sort of last straw type thing that there's a build up of
thing that there's a build up of resentment because i haven't been
resentment because i haven't been expressing my needs and then valentine's
expressing my needs and then valentine's day feels like the valid time to do that
day feels like the valid time to do that because
because everybody else gets roses you know it's
everybody else gets roses you know it's kind of um it's a difficult one and how
kind of um it's a difficult one and how in your thought in your work how often
in your thought in your work how often do you see
do you see that the relationships we have with
that the relationships we have with others are just a reflection of the
others are just a reflection of the relationship we have with ourselves
relationship we have with ourselves yeah i mean huge it can be really
yeah i mean huge it can be really difficult when people for example when
difficult when people for example when people become um depressed
people become um depressed and and their relationship with
and and their relationship with themselves becomes very poor and you
themselves becomes very poor and you know they're talking to themselves in a
know they're talking to themselves in a poor way they believe awful things about
poor way they believe awful things about themselves it can become really
themselves it can become really difficult for them then to
difficult for them then to sustain or manage their relationships in
sustain or manage their relationships in a in a
a in a positive way
positive way um because they don't feel worthy of
um because they don't feel worthy of that relationship for example
that relationship for example i don't i don't know so much about you
i don't i don't know so much about you know people say
know people say don't love anyone else until you love
don't love anyone else until you love yourself and stuff like because again
yourself and stuff like because again it's this kind of standard isn't it of
it's this kind of standard isn't it of like i've got to be so okay with myself
like i've got to be so okay with myself before i'm allowed to
before i'm allowed to have a partner
have a partner life doesn't work like that we all work
life doesn't work like that we all work on it for years right and there are
on it for years right and there are times when it's really pushed to the
times when it's really pushed to the brink and you're tested and or you know
brink and you're tested and or you know your relationship with yourself
your relationship with yourself deteriorates because something's
deteriorates because something's happened and um and that's okay to go
happened and um and that's okay to go through that journey and you can go
through that journey and you can go through it with someone else but yeah i
through it with someone else but yeah i mean if you're struggling with you then
mean if you're struggling with you then then it's likely that you're also going
then it's likely that you're also going to be struggling in your relationship
to be struggling in your relationship which then has a knock-on effect to you
which then has a knock-on effect to you again so it's a sort of a bit of a cycle
again so it's a sort of a bit of a cycle we go through life you know
we go through life you know especially because you're on this you
especially because you're on this you know you're on a you're doing a lot of
know you're on a you're doing a lot of media at the moment because of your book
media at the moment because of your book and you're having to do a lot of
and you're having to do a lot of interviews and one of my guests one day
interviews and one of my guests one day a really profound question in the diary
a really profound question in the diary we'll get all of our guests to write a
we'll get all of our guests to write a question in the diary for their next
question in the diary for their next guest and they wrote a really
guest and they wrote a really interesting question which i always like
interesting question which i always like to ask guests now and and and ask them
to ask guests now and and and ask them to give me the total honesty in the
to give me the total honesty in the answer which is um
answer which is um are you happy
are you happy yes
yes some of the time
some of the time and i would say that because
and i would say that because there's this idea that happiness is
there's this idea that happiness is either there or it's not it's constant
either there or it's not it's constant like some people have it and some people
like some people have it and some people don't
don't it's a feeling like anything else and
it's a feeling like anything else and sometimes i'm really happy sometimes i'm
sometimes i'm really happy sometimes i'm ecstatic other times i feel really sad
ecstatic other times i feel really sad or frightened or stressed
or frightened or stressed and that's okay generally i'm
and that's okay generally i'm i'm happy with the setup of my life and
i'm happy with the setup of my life and positive things are happening and
positive things are happening and all of thank
all of thank god you all of my children are healthy
god you all of my children are healthy and safe and all of those things so
and safe and all of those things so yeah i'm pretty grateful for my lot at
yeah i'm pretty grateful for my lot at the moment
the moment but i wouldn't say you know i've found
but i wouldn't say you know i've found the secret to happiness and then that is
the secret to happiness and then that is a constant and here i go i know life's
a constant and here i go i know life's going to be a roller coaster because
going to be a roller coaster because it's for everybody and there will be
it's for everybody and there will be times when i'm knocked back and i don't
times when i'm knocked back and i don't feel happy
feel happy and i know that i'll have my own back
and i know that i'll have my own back when that time comes
when that time comes okay the question
okay the question okay
okay okay i don't think i understand it
okay i don't think i understand it because they've underlined one of the
because they've underlined one of the words so the word that they've
words so the word that they've underlined i'm gonna emphasize
underlined i'm gonna emphasize okay
okay what would you do differently if you
what would you do differently if you didn't have
didn't have to do anything
um if i didn't have to do anything i'd probably spend more time at the
i'd probably spend more time at the beach that sounds bizarre but i love
beach that sounds bizarre but i love being
being um
um outdoors with the kids i love being at
outdoors with the kids i love being at the beach with them on the coast or in
the beach with them on the coast or in the forest
the forest with the dog and i would probably do
with the dog and i would probably do more of that i think just being outside
more of that i think just being outside and and letting the kids be kids with
and and letting the kids be kids with you know
you know hitting trees with sticks and kicking
hitting trees with sticks and kicking stones and like you know just the fun
stones and like you know just the fun stuff probably probably a bit more of
stuff probably probably a bit more of that what's stopping you doing that now
that what's stopping you doing that now um that they all have to go to school
um that they all have to go to school and
and and we have to go to work and
and we have to go to work and you know they got skills to learn and
you know they got skills to learn and clubs to attend and you know it's the
clubs to attend and you know it's the kind of normal life stuff that you get
kind of normal life stuff that you get busy with which is still just as
busy with which is still just as meaningful but i think you know if there
meaningful but i think you know if there was a week off of
was a week off of school and clubs and stuff like that
school and clubs and stuff like that then that's where we'd go to i think
then that's where we'd go to i think thank you thank you for your time your
thank you thank you for your time your honesty and your brilliance um the book
honesty and your brilliance um the book is as i said it's an incredibly
is as i said it's an incredibly important book not least because of its
important book not least because of its of its uh
of its uh its basis in
its basis in you know
you know more than a decade of knowledge and
more than a decade of knowledge and practice but also because it's so
practice but also because it's so inclusive and it's so easy to read and i
inclusive and it's so easy to read and i know it's going to help a ton of people
know it's going to help a ton of people especially people that don't like or
especially people that don't like or intimidated by the prospect like me of
intimidated by the prospect like me of sitting down and having to read 700
sitting down and having to read 700 pages or whatever in one sitting a book
pages or whatever in one sitting a book that you can nip into and nip out of
that you can nip into and nip out of over time is so
over time is so so holiday worthy and so like travel
so holiday worthy and so like travel worthy which is pretty much where i read
worthy which is pretty much where i read all of my books so thank you for writing
all of my books so thank you for writing such a brilliant book thank you for
such a brilliant book thank you for being such a brilliant person
being such a brilliant person and although i know it's challenging at
and although i know it's challenging at times i would just reiterate to the fact
times i would just reiterate to the fact that you are helping many many many more
that you are helping many many many more people than you'll ever get to know or
people than you'll ever get to know or meet and i think that's um that's a very
meet and i think that's um that's a very important cause that you're serving so
important cause that you're serving so thank you thank you so much and thanks
thank you thank you so much and thanks for having me it's an absolute privilege
for having me it's an absolute privilege to to come and
to to come and talk with you and
talk with you and i can have a list of my own questions
i can have a list of my own questions for you that's for another day but thank
for you that's for another day but thank you thank you
you thank you [Music]
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