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World Leading Psychologist: How To Detach From Overthinking & Anxiety: Dr Julie Smith | E122

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This content is an interview with clinical psychologist Dr. Julie Smith, who discusses practical psychological insights for navigating life's challenges, stress, and relationships, emphasizing the importance of understanding human behavior, self-compassion, and living by one's values.

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i can't stop now i can't i can't stop

doing this dr julie smith she's a

clinical psychologist with more than

three million followers how is she

dealing with stress pressure burnout

overload we're subjected to these kind

of ideals we're trying to do everything

perfectly and it's impossible those

things that that we end up doing

habitually are the things that work

instantly going to the fridge or

grabbing the wine or whatever it is and

actually the things that tend to work in

the long term are hardest in the moment

like sitting with it and feeling it and

using skills to get yourself through it

i just love that therapy it's great for

looking at the patterns and the cycles

that people tend to feel stuck in in

their relationship and it's incredible

how life-changing that can be for people

without further ado i'm stephen bartlett

and this is the diver ceo i hope

nobody's listening but if you are then

please keep this to yourself could you

do me a quick favor if you're listening

to this please hit the follow or

subscribe button it helps more than you

know and we invite subscribers in every

month to watch the show in person dr

julie smith i had some time to read as

much as i could about your story and

with a lot of my guests there's often

tons of backstory online about their

personal lives their upbringing their

childhood that didn't seem to be the

case with you and i think one of the

things that from getting further and

further down the road with your story i

thought was really wonderful was

typically when people are successful and

they reach the levels of success that

you have in their disciplines

we we tend to want to point to some kind

of anomalous childhood where something

traumatic or um really significant

happened that shaped them and made them

obsessive or

overly dedicated or passionate was that

the case for you what was your childhood

like tell me yeah so uh

no there are there's no um sort of major

trauma that that triggered my kind of

mission to do any of this or even you

know had a few questions recently about

you know why i was even interested in

psychology and and actually i've always

been fascinated by people by humans and

i read a lot as a child but actually

everything i read

was about normal people in normal life

situations and sort of development of

how people become who they who they are

and um that's always fascinated me and

and actually i i started studying

psychology because i found it really

interesting you know just um there was a

new a-level available at my school my

college and so i thought well that

sounds okay that sounds great let's try

it and

i was just fascinated by it and so i

kind of went with that and

went to university because everybody

else was going and it seemed like that

was what you do now and um

so psychology felt like you know an

interesting thing to do i had no idea

really what jobs could be at the end of

it i just kept following my interests

all the way along and and actually when

people ask me advice about

your careers and finding your passion

and all those things

that's the only advice i give people

really is you know

follow your interest do the thing that

that excites you or that inspires you

and you don't have to have this you know

epiphany moment that transforms your

life and makes you passionate about

doing what it is you're doing

um if you follow interest you're much

more likely to end up somewhere

um in in a job that that you love

having done this podcast for quite some

time now it's almost a bit of a

psychological i don't know um

it's it's almost a bit of a

psychological journey with each guest

but sometimes it also feels like therapy

and i'm starting to learn more and more

about humans generally the more and more

of them that i get to speak to

especially because i'm i tend to be

speaking to people that are considered

to be anomalies

in your experience having

understood the nature of the human mind

and how we think and how trauma and all

of these things in mood and decision

making are all intertwined together what

have you learned just more broadly and

generally about the nature of human

beings and how

and how we come to be the way that we

are i know that's a big question but

it's one of the ones that i i actually

i'll tell you what i've learned okay

because then maybe that'll give you a

bit of an indication as to what i'm what

i'm referring to here one of the things

i thought before i started doing this

podcast and speaking to people a lot was

i thought we were all just so

fundamentally different

and i thought that um

my job would be to find out all the ways

that all these successful people are

different but i think over time i've

actually learned the opposite like

fundamentally humans are quite predictable

predictable

in terms of how if you poke it like this typically

typically

a like x y or z will happen

yeah i think there is a sense of

predictability isn't there and and

and certainly

you would go with that in terms of the

sort of work that i do and working in

therapy there are certain patterns that

that can be predicted and that's where

you know your models of therapy develop

because you can predict that if certain

things are happening then it might

develop into this pattern and but actually

actually

while there is predictability

people will always surprise you as well

so you know even as i work

with people one-to-one in therapy

no two people are ever the same and

and you can never assume anything um because

because

you know everybody has that

unique story and the new unique set of

experiences that they've been through

and their unique set of coping

strategies and how they'll then get

through that so

um i think predictability to a degree

but never assume

anything because people yeah people will

surprise you

and how did uh a clinical therapist like

yourself you know what question i'm

gonna ask you to find their way onto

tick tock you've got millions and

millions and millions of followers on

there yeah it's not i mean we were

saying before we started recording tick

tock is typically a place that you

assume 16 year old kids to be dancing

you don't assume clinical psychologists

to be giving mental health advice

yeah absolutely and that's where you

know you talk about anomalies and stuff

i guess i have um

felt like i've been sort of swimming

against the tide in my um

in my chosen career and the area that i

work in in that it's usually a very private

private um

quiet kind of career choice you're

working with individuals it's

confidential you work with one person at

a time and

and in that sort of area of work

actually very few people

are even on social media um because you

have to protect your your own privacy

and confidentiality agreements and that

kind of thing so um

to even

put stuff on social media felt

quite scary for me because you know your

thought is what my peers going to think

is this you know what's this going to

cause for me

but every time that i had someone else

come in for therapy who

found the educational aspect of it so helpful

helpful

i would i would go home and and say to

my husband why do people have to pay to

come and see people like me to find out

that bit of information about how their

mind works so they can deal with their

anxiety better or so that they can um

you know function in their relationship

better you know there's some there's a

set of kind of knowledge there and skills

skills

that are taught to people in therapy but

they're not therapy skills their life

skills and people can use them every day

i use them every day to help me get

through everything life throws at me and

and

and i just felt that it was unfair that

that knowledge should be kept and hidden

away in the therapy room so

so um

you know my husband being the person he

has said well go on then do it you know

make it available and put something on

youtube or something like that and so we

did we kind of

half-heartedly made a really rubbish

youtube video

and um

and then at that same time he discovered

tik tok so he found the yet someone

recommended it to him he found it it was

full of kind of

fun dancing loads of really cool comedy

and we were sort of scrolling through it

laughing instantly just you know falling

down that rabbit hole of scrolling

and he said well you know go on

uh make something like for 60 seconds

see what information you can get into it

i said well then no you can't you can't

cut it down to that you know small

amount of time it'll be impossible

um and i'll probably get trolled out of

there because no one is talking about

that kind of stuff there were young

people expressing their distress on

there and talking about their mental

health from a personal perspective but i

couldn't find anyone who was kind of

sharing education around it so

um reluctantly you know got persuaded

and had to go and almost instantly um

the response was just overwhelming

people were

messaging saying they were checking in

every day to see what the next video was

or you know and

there's this real misconception as well

that that all my followers on there must

be this young group of people and you

know a lot of the messages i get from

parents and even grandparents who are saying

saying

oh this concept you explained was really

really useful i'm working through it

with my daughter or my grandson and it's

really helping thanks so much you know

where's the next one coming from so

i kind of felt like when we started it

was going to be this one-off thing like

okay oh you know i should you know

practice what i preach and have a go and

i assumed that we would kind of delete

the delete the account pretend it never happened

happened um

two years later here we are kind of

three and a half million of us later

so yeah i mean it there was no kind of

set game plan for it but it just felt

like the right thing to do it um to kind

of put that information out there and

see if people were interested in it um

and it turns out people were quite

hungry for that kind of information you

know people wanted not only to talk

about mental health but they wanted some evidence-based

evidence-based

sort of quality tips and knowledge that

that they knew were coming from a

i guess a good place

a couple of questions there then so the

first one is are you still seeing

patients one-on-one

yeah so i still have a few i had to stop

taking on anyone else new because i was

sort of bombarded with requests

and you know writing the book and

everything has taken up a huge amount of

my time so i've kept that really limited um

but uh yeah i kind of still i still want

to keep that going i'm just

i'm in the process of trying to work out

how to manage that around

doing such public things so yeah that's

going to be a real transformation for me

because that's one of the things i've

i've always sort of contended with when

people have asked me if i'd do like

one-on-one coaching and stuff my d my

kind of default mindset is well if i

spend an hour i'd rather make a video

that i think can reach millions of

people than sit with one person on their

own yeah so i was wondering what your

relationship was with that one-on-one

stuff yeah i mean in some ways i do miss

some of the one-to-one stuff that i do

or did do and

and so that's why i've kind of held on

to some of it

um because you just cannot be being

one-on-one with someone in a room and

developing that

depth of relationship with someone

where that therapy room becomes their

sanctuary and you know

that's an incredible privilege that kind

of work and i love it

but there is that there is that sense of

okay i could sit in this room and

you know work with one person at a time

or i could make a video and share this

idea with potentially a couple of

million people

which you know has become

a real passion and that i i recognize

that it just didn't interest me the

numbers and the

you know kind of business side of it

just didn't really figure for me it was

genuinely just

the feedback the messages and the emails

you know i was going through them and

and thought was

i can't stop now i can't i can't stop

doing this if people are checking in

every day to see what the next video is

or or asking for specific topics because

they're genuinely struggling with something

something um

if i can help in some small way

then i really should so

in terms of that feedback that you're

getting from social media

i've come to learn that it's not all

great as in i'm not saying the feedback

isn't all great but the general like

stress and pressure and expectation and

constant constant feedback can be

detrimental in many ways as well

talk to me about your relationship with

having millions and millions of people

that can message you at any time letting

you know whatever they're thinking and

how you process that yeah you know it's

been really tough for me actually

because i i'm naturally

a very

people following probably wouldn't

believe this i bounce around in my

videos like anything but um

i'm actually very introverted shy person

you know my ideal day is kind of

at home alone with a book probably and

so you know

the idea of of being public

and and being seen by people was not a

comfortable one it's something that i

kind of

endured for the cause if you sort of

mean for the idea of oh this could help

someone who's in need um so

that's something i've had to work

through and and do a lot of kind of

practicing what i preach you know being

uncomfortable for the sake of something

that i value or that i believe in um and

and

and yeah i mean i did a video on the

mental filter this kind of thought bias

that we all have

um and use the example of you know with

the kind of comments and and feedback

and stuff like that that you can have a hundred

hundred

positive comments and you will scroll

through them to find the one that's not

positive even if it's neutral you know

or go off a bit negative um because

because

you're built to do that you're built to

look for any signs that this is not okay

or that it's all going to collapse and

everyone's going to hate you and

and so

actually doing the whole thing has

has made me practice what i preach

because i have to because it's not an

easy situation to be in is that you're

vulnerable when you're putting yourself

online or you know as much as as i do

when you're putting yourself out there um

it's a vulnerable place to be and a lot

of people look on and think it's easy

and um

and it's it's really not no i have a

newfound respect for everyone who kind of

you know is brave enough to do that

what you were describing there that

scrolling through comments looking for

the bad one is something i think we can

all relate to because i will get 99.9

like great comments and then it'll be as

you say the one that's either that's

critical or that feels personal it's if

someone's like criticizing something

that i've like done i don't really care

it's when it's when they are criticizing

who i am i think i find it hardest and

so i wanted to understand why that was

and i started doing some reading and

some writing about this topic and

understanding the nature

if we go back in our like in our history

as humans of rejection and what that

used to mean when i was a human the idea

of being like just like kicked out of my

tribe yeah and the threat that that

would put me under if i was removed from

my tribe in this idea of rejection and

really like a lot of rejection this is

kind of what i came to came to the

conclusion of

when someone says something like that

it's almost like for me it feels like

a a threat of rejection a threat of

being expelled from the from the you

know from the tribe or whatever

um obviously not

obviously that is not the truth but deep

within me somewhere that desire to fit

in and be accepted by the tribe is still

there so having

millions of people being able to give me

feedback and some of them

seemingly rejecting me from the tribe or

saying that i don't feel or whatever is

difficult is that like that's a lot of

words but does that make any sense yeah

because the feeling comes before the

rational thoughts about it so you know

your your body has that reaction

before you're able to consider that you

know this isn't your um

your only community or this isn't your

family or people that are sort of you're

dependent on and that kind of thing so i

think the feeling will always be there

and it's always

difficult isn't it but then you can

override that with what comes next so

it's all it's not about never having

that feeling and and i hate it when

people kind of say online you know just

to stop caring what everybody thinks and

that is impossible because you're built

to care what people think of you and

and you probably wouldn't function in a

society that well if you didn't care

what anybody thought of you

it's about how you then manage it so

when those thoughts come along

about you know negative comment it's

what do you do next with what comes up

so yeah it's really about how you kind

of respond to

to the thoughts that come up after and

is it is it

in those moments of rejection

is it really like the story we tell

ourselves about what that rejection

means to us i'm thinking now more

broadly about romantic rejection my you

know i'm dating someone she says you're dumped

dumped

like the harm surely isn't in the

separation surely for me it's always

felt like oh well i got to the point

where i realized that it was more

steve's subconscious brain is telling

himself he's a scumbag

and not beautiful and not smart because

of this rejection is that really where

the harm is done like that

self-inflicted self-story yeah so i mean

rejection is difficult for everybody

isn't it but but certainly if if

rejection taps into

what we call a kind of core belief so if

someone grew up with

a core belief around being unlovable for

example because maybe their parents were

inconsistent in their care for example

so they

you know and you don't think about these

beliefs consciously all the time you

know they're not at the forefront of of

your thought processes

but they will influence how you feel and

they'll influence how you behave and the

choices that you make

so what happens is when we have a core

belief that is a sort of damaging one or

detrimental one we develop

um sort of rules for living around that

that help us to keep it at bay so it

might be you know if i can just be the

perfect um business owner and the

perfect boyfriend and the perfect dad

then no one will reject me and and

everything will be okay and so you set

yourself these these rules for living

that if at some point inevitably you

break or there's signs that you're not

gonna be able to keep up with them

and what that does is when there's signs

that you're not gonna keep up with those

rules for living

you then it kind of triggers that core

belief to come to the forefront and

that's when you get that rush of kind of

psychological distress because it's a

distressing thing to believe about yourself

yourself

and so that's when it can cause people

real problems when

when that sort of damaging core belief

is being triggered on a regular basis

for example maybe because it's a

turbulent relationship or whatever the

situation is um

and that's when you can work not only on

the present stuff but on the core

beliefs and

and looking at

how those are playing out in

relationships and how do you get to the

heart of understanding what your core

beliefs are because i went through life

and i think i got to about 24 years old

without being in a relationship and

and

when i asked myself what my core beliefs

were as it relates to relationships i

realized that they were heavily shaped

by watching my parents like toxic

relationship and this belief that

relationships were prison i because my i

thought my dad was in prison for my

entire childhood that's what i thought i

thought he was trapped in prison because

he was in a relationship with my with my

mother because they were very um

argumentative shall we say so

it wasn't until i was 24 and i think

because of journaling and writing and

really this podcast that i was able to

realize that i even thought that and i

was having this like avoidant behavioral

pattern where the minute i would pursue

someone romantically and the minute they

would accept my advances i would run for

the hills and try and dissuade them out

of being in a relationship with me and i

had no idea that core belief was in the

back of my control center of my mind

yeah absolutely and there's there's a

really fascinating therapy called cat

therapy actually so it's cognitive

analytic therapy

um just cat for sure but that really is

just a fascinating therapy where it

looks at the relationships that you have

when you're younger so when you're

growing up with with parents or siblings

or family and in those relationships you

learn how to behave in the world right

you learn about you know who i am

what to expect from other people um and

what to expect from the world at large

and then

you develop kind of survival strategies

or coping strategies in for example in

in a difficult relationship like that

uh you learn how to cope with that and

you have these kind of safety behaviors

and and as you grow up you're in a

different situation right you're not

um dependent on parents and stuff like that

that

but those survival strategies all those

safety behaviors continue and they get

played out in your adult relationships

and and i just love that therapy it's

great for looking at

the patterns and the cycles that people

tend to feel stuck in in their

relationships and how that reflects

those early life experiences that are

essentially outdated coping strategies

but it's really difficult you know if

something's been a lifetime of habit you

can't just break that by telling

yourself to do that so it takes time and

it takes practice and and you literally

kind of map out the cycle

so that you you learn to

sort of acknowledge it in hindsight

first of all so you say okay last week

that happened and that happened and yeah

i went around the cycle

and then eventually you've done that

enough that you start to recognize it

when you're in it so as you're about to

do something you think hang on a minute

i know what this this is predictable i

know what i'm doing and in that moment

you then get this chance this is a

beauty of kind of awareness is you then

get this chance to

choose whether you go with it and

sometimes you will and you'll go around

the cycle again and sometimes

you'll do this other thing that you've

already worked out you need to do

and you break the cycle and and then you

get the benefits of that and and so it's

this really kind of long process of

sometimes going around the cycle again

and then sometimes breaking it and

finding this new life that you can

create in your relationships and stuff

like that so and it's incredible how

life-changing that can be for people if

someone can't

afford to go to cat therapy or whatever

is there is there a way at home or

within their own life that they can

sort of achieve the same outcome i think um

i don't think it's a replacement for it

but i think definitely um

things like journaling and and

reflecting on experiences

and trying to look at patterns of

behavior so you know i always find that

i don't know when i'm with my boyfriend

we argue about this after i do this and

then you can literally sort of work it

out on paper just writing things down

what happened then what happened next

then what happened next how did i feel

how do i think they felt how did then i

feel when they said that and you're

really kind of just going through it

but keep doing that you know just doing

it once won't necessarily open up everything

everything

but when you keep doing it you can work

out patterns and the themes and and then

when you start to get you know

and sort of knowledge of that cycle

you can then you know begin to look at

what's different but sometimes it's

really difficult to just know how to

break the cycle sometimes that's a

really difficult part of therapy for

people is working out well where can you

break that cycle where where can you

exit and do something different and what

is that different thing because if you

knew right you would just do it so

um it's not easy and i think

you know maybe it's maybe that's another

book to write isn't it it's talking

about that relationship stuff because

it's so important to people

and and you know sometimes having

good friendships and and people that you

trust to talk through these things with

can help to give you that other

perspective you know kind of fact

checking some of your own because you

when you're in it it's so hard to see

the wood for the trees isn't it you're

kind of it's so much easier once you've

got stuff down on paper and you're kind

of looking at you've got that bird's eye

view and that's really the process of

therapy so if you can

um recreate any aspects of that with a

really trusted friend or loved one then

that could be helpful i don't think it's

a replacement for therapy and and the

model and the training but it's

certainly something

when you grow a big platform very

quickly there's a lot of other sort of i

guess psychological things to contend

with one of them is imposter syndrome

yeah one is one of them is the um

the the claim which will be leveled at

you i'm sure that you got lucky

how do you deal and contend with all of

these these thoughts um i'd say lucky's

pretty hard work isn't it you probably

know that um

yeah and and you know there's an element

of that i think you know there was

probably a timing thing for me in the um

you know this huge pandemic started and

lots of people at home tapping into

new social media platforms they hadn't

before um

i think it's been uncomfortable all the

way along

i think

because it's been new and i've been

it's very public and that's way out of

my comfort zone you know i hadn't um

i'd been in such a kind of small about i

live in a small town i had a small

you know one-man band private practice

it was just me and the whole reason for

that was that i could balance it around

my children and be the mum i want to be

it was all very kind of organic and

and suddenly this this thing started to

happen and become a bit of a roller coaster

coaster

how does it feel to know that the more

successful you become at what you do

the more

public you're going to become to the

point where you might be in the daily

mail every week

and and you know what i've had quite a

few moments

uh you know i've not even really told

anyone this but i've had quite a few

moments along the way

and where i've really really questioned

do i even want this and

and i kind of told myself that as soon

as that all that feedback nice feedback

from genuine people who were saying

thank you so much you know what's next

i was kind of waiting for that to stop

so that i could stop

because it's really not been easy you

know i've been i've got three small

children and it's really really

important to me to be present for them

so i wanted to

keep it as balanced as i could which has

been nearly impossible so i was getting

up at like five in the morning to make

videos for tech talk in the dark before

my kids got up and stuff like that and

it's not been

you know it's not been an easy ride and

so it's kind of you know it's been hard

work and

i think i kept going because i felt like

it was temporary

i felt like at some point everyone's

just going to think yeah this is boring

now and and we'll stop

um and we would have helped a few people

and that would be great i mean maybe you

could advise me on that well no i mean

because i'm literally going through the

same thing which is this realization

that i've had more recently especially

with the success of the podcast and

joining dragon's den

that um

and then like there was there was a like

a really critical piece written about me

the other day and it's like totally

baseless but it says it basically

implies that my last company was like

guantanamo bay or something

and i was thinking this is this is going

to only continue to get more and more

and more and i'm going to have to

contend with more and more noise

as i become more successful at the thing

i love doing so what do you what do you

do do you stop and i do feel like a

sense of mission in cause with what i do

as well so do i stop that

which feels in some degree a little bit

selfish maybe and just focus on like

making my life very private i can go to

bali and buy a big mansion and just

chill yeah or do i

carry on doing what i'm doing and

realize that an unavoidable consequence

of it is i have to log online every day

or i have to you know open my emails

every day and just see so much noise

yeah which which is difficult because as

you say i want to have a relationship

and i noticed specifically this weekend

when i was like

speaking to lawyers and doing all this

stuff because of this article or whatever

whatever

that i hadn't spoken to my girlfriend

and i'm like the thing that actually

matters the most to me the person that

provides me with the most like stability

and love is the thing as you said the

most important thing you say in your book

book

is the thing i'm rejecting

in for the sake of noise that doesn't

like you know yeah and i think that's

where it almost goes against the grain

again doesn't it because we're kind of

taught to believe somehow there's this

undercurrent uh in our culture that that

you should strive for you know um riches

and and

fame and those things because they'll somehow

somehow

make everything good and and actually

they make things harder as well so you

know while some people can really enjoy

that and they'll really

feel that that's where they want to be

there's there isn't this narrative where

people say it's okay not to because

those people are being quiet and going

off you know so and doing their own

thing so we don't hear that narrative of

it's okay not to be

extraordinary or it's okay not to stand

out from the crowd or it's okay to

um to want a quiet life or a private

life and

and you know i'm as much a victim of

that as as anyone else because you know

when i'm

not wanting certain sort of public things

things

i question myself you know what am i

doing am i is this right or and it's often

often

you know about your own values isn't it

and how you want to live and and i guess

all the time that you're questioning

that and reflecting on it

and making choices none of them have to

be permanent there's this idea that oh

if i don't take the opportunity it's all over

over

probably not so you know you can kind of

play around with it can't you you could probably

probably

have you know six months off to go and

hide away somewhere on an island and you

could come back and

and experience public life again

so that you could almost you know work

out what is it that i like and want

about each one and how can i create a

balance for me but yeah we just taught

that we need to just strive for

extraordinary and and out of the crowd

and and

i think we have to question that

where are you at the moment on this

topic in terms of deciding

you know how much of

you know how much attention and this

audience you're building you want to

build versus the the privacy and the

family and the the things that so clearly

clearly

much more intrinsically aligned with

your values

i think i'm i'm guessing there to a

sense in the sense that um

i need to stick to the reason that i

started in the first place i think i

have to keep that um

sense of integrity about you know i

started to be helpful and the thing i

loved doing you know the thing i loved

about writing the book

was researching and learning about

psychology and keeping up with the

research and that kind of stuff is the

stuff i love to do i love to learn about

people and then to share that knowledge

and so i guess as long as i'm doing that

and trying to

sort of protect my children at the same

time and and

and live a normal life then

then that'll be okay but all of these

things are a balance i don't think there

is a

clear set answer to any of these things

are there you know like you've had that

experience with the paper and and that's

made you kind of maybe step back a

minute and think wow how much do i want

this kind of thing and and it doesn't

have to you know make you do a 180 but

it can make you just acknowledge and learn

learn

i don't want to go too far in that

direction this is what i want and and i

feel like is that with me you're

constantly just edging from one sort of

position to another and you've got to

learn in them you've got to learn from

the experience it like on the job right

yes these are these are not lessons that

i could have learned from someone just

telling me yeah and in fact we've

probably both grown up in a world where

people have warned us about the things

we're experiencing and we didn't listen

we didn't understand until we felt it

right and if you try and convince some

ten-year-old kid you probably don't want

to be famous

you're right okay whatever

so you have to learn these things yeah

quick one for many years people have

been asking for a coffee flavored huel

and quite recently he'll release the

iced coffee caramel flavor of their um

ready-to-drink heels and i've just

become hooked on it over the last couple

of weeks i've been on a really

interesting journey with huel which i've

described and talked about a little bit

on this podcast i started with the berry

ready to drinks then i moved over to the

protein salted caramel because it's 100

calories and it gives you all of your

essential vitamins and minerals but also

gives you the 20 odd grams of protein

you need and now i'm balanced between

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into the iced coffee caramel

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i'm drinking that as well as the protein

make sure you try the new ready to drink

flavors that the caramel flavor is

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amazing and obviously as i said the iced

coffee caramel flavor has been a real

smash here so check it out let me know

what you think on social media i see all

of your tags and instagram posts and

tweets about you back to the podcast

one of the things you spoke about there

is um about values and much of your you

know much of what you talk about in your

book centers around understanding

what our real values are and our goals

and what we should be aiming for and how

to deal with certain situations your

brand new book why has nobody told me

this before which i love by the way

for many reasons i love it because you

don't have to read it all in one sitting

you can skip to the key

parts that are relevant to you as

as is the case with all your content

it's super

inclusive so it doesn't feel like i mean

i've got psychology books on my

bookshelf over there that are you know i

have to like i have to do one page at a

time and like have a massage

to get through each paragraph because

it's difficult but this is super

inclusive whilst also being incredibly

um important in its subject matter um

so values and goals what is the

difference what is the value

sure so

um the way i would talk about sort of

values and goals in therapy is really around

around

a goal is something that you

once you achieve it once you get there

it's done so you know your goal might be

to get through your exams okay exams are

over you passed done

a value

doesn't finish or end it's it's a

pathway if you imagine your life as a

journey for example it's a path that

extends the whole of your life

and it's something that you choose to

always stay close to when you can and i

think you know life will always take you

in different directions so sometimes

life will pull you away from a

particular value

but it's really about always evaluating

and knowing where that path is so that

you can pull back in that direction so

for example when your you know your

career starts to take over because it's

so busy and then you think oh i haven't

spoken to my girlfriend all week that's

you going

that passed too far away now i'm pulling

back i need to head back in this

direction because this is important to

me and and so it's a kind of you know

winding path where you you you're you're

sometimes you're pulling away from it

and sometimes you're going back towards

it um and something that i included in

the book was these sort of little values

check-ins that i would do

and and we do in therapy where we look

at okay just look at the different areas

of your life it doesn't have to be

rocket science doesn't have to be really

kind of

airy fairy it's looking at okay what's

important in your life you might have

family intimate relationships health creativity

creativity

you know lifelong learning career

contribution those kind of things and

then you could literally kind of split

it up into boxes and put in each box words

words

not about it's what's really crucial is

it's not what happens to you it's not

what you want to happen to you it's how

you want to respond to things how you

want to be in that area of your life

what kind of person you want to be so

let's say you were looking at your you

know romantic relationships

what kind of boyfriend do i actually

want to be you know what what kind of

partner do i want to be what do i want

to represent to that person and how do i

want to

come at difficulties how do i want to

sort of respond to problems that we face

and and you know that kind of thing so

it's all looking at

the attitude that you bring to that

situation in your life or that area of

your life

and you might come up with words that

that then kind of resonate or you know maybe

maybe

i don't know and maybe in your work life

maybe enthusiasm is a word that you just

hold close to you and that becomes one

of your values

and so

um you can then

and sort of exercises in the book

because you can almost rate okay how

important is it to me

to be enthusiastic in my work maybe it's

ten out of ten that's really really

important to me

and on that same scale then how much do

i feel like i'm living in line with that

this week or today

um two out of ten i'm pretty tired i

can't even bother today this job's

really boring today or whatever

and then so when you what you've done

those you looked you've opened up a

discrepancy between okay this is really

important to you but you're not living

in line with there

why what's going on not not in a way

that you can then be really self-critical

self-critical

but as a tool to say

um yeah my girlfriend's really important

to me i haven't seen her for four weeks

why what's stopping me from jumping on a

plane right now okay let's do that and

then you know when you start to do those

things and and you're coming back

towards your value

the the sort of rating for how much

you're living in line with it would go

up and so doing that kind of exercise is

really just a long long-winded way of

saying you can

look at what's important to you you can

just do a really quick measure up of how

much am i living in line with it and

what areas of my life do i need to pay

attention to because i'm not living in

line with it so it can be kind of quite

simple and a fairly quick exercise

really i am i was actually watching a

video last night and uh

there was a guy on youtube i don't know

how i managed to stumble across it the

video had like 2 000 views this is not

anybody anybody would know but he was

sat in his car and i found it really

fascinating because

i don't know whether i should say this

or not but um i found it fascinating

because he exhibited certain like

narcissistic delusions of grandeur in

talking about what he wanted to become

and what he wanted from his life

and um it got me thinking that

it's quite difficult to understand

whether something you say or write down

or aiming for is a value or if it's just

based on like an inherent deep childhood

born in security because if you'd asked

me at 18 what my values were i would

have said a million pounds a lamborghini

like i would have i would have

defaulted to these things because those

were the things that would have like i

know scratched my like

insecurities right yeah but as i've as i

attain those things and had more chance

to reflect on what actually makes me

feel good and fulfilled and complete i

would have said family connection you know

know

health two very different things right

one's cause-based one is just an

insecurity so how do we know the

difference and and you don't right

because you know

and it's always a horrible answer isn't

it but you you know maybe you had that

aspiration when you were younger

and and you went with it because it's

all you knew at the time

and then you learnt some

you became more wise and your values

shifted slightly and and that's the

thing that's why i talk about doing sort

of quite regular values check-ins

because depending on your life

you know stage and what you're doing

your circumstances your values will

change you know my values transformed

when i had children and

and

um you know probably sort of flipped

them upside down really and

and that's okay

it was i could never have known that

that would be i couldn't have

prioritized my children before they were

there anyway you know and um and for

example you might not have been able to

know that you would feel differently now

back then at that age you didn't have

the capacity to do that you hadn't had

the life experience so it's okay you

know there isn't this sense of there is

this right path and if you get on it at

17 you'll be all right you know the

whole process is a learning process so

it's okay to change direction it's okay

to discover

this is not where i want to be

but i've learned something here we go

let's change direction let's go in this

direction and now i've got the knowledge

of where i don't want to be

speaking of changing direction then a

lot of what's written about how we

change direction is you've got to make

this like big grand decision in your

life and then today you've got to go in

that direction as if it was like a 90

degree turn and this can be quite

terrifying for a lot of people because

it's not easy to do you talk about this

in the book you talk about habits and

things like that and how we make change

in our life what have you learned in

your you know your experience as a

clinical psychologist about how people

do actually make

meaningful change in direction in their life

life

um i think something i've learned is that

that

drastically and quickly you know

sustainable change is made carefully and

and

there's this process of it's not just

action there is a lot of kind of reflection

reflection and

and

then there's a bit of action then

there's a bit more reflection of like we

tried that how was it

you know do we need to change direction

you know we keep moving so it's a kind of

bit by bit by bit

but we greatly underestimate how

powerful and sustainable that can be

when we do it bit by bit and

and you know develop habits for example

and constantly re-evaluate and check in

on which direction we want to go in

um so i think something that i've

learned and certainly actually

in my nhs work for example this the type

of work that i was doing um

it took time

you know if someone's really poorly and

and there's a lot to work through

that takes a long time and that's okay

that's kind of how we work it takes time

to heal and things like that so

um i think i learned to sort of

acknowledge that not everything has to

be done yesterday

um you also talk a lot about in your

book about how we can turn

bad days into not so bad days i guess um

and this relationship which i find

really fascinating between the decisions

we make our moods and our our like

actions and behavior and how they're all

like fundamentally linked and i was i

was thinking um i remember

when i was writing my book

having a particular moment where i was

in like a bad i was in like not a good

mood and i was trying to understand

what how to kind of hijack that to get

back to a good mood do i go for a run do

i just focus on my actions do i have to

think my way out of my bad mood what

would you say to all of that i think

thinking your way of a bad mood

is is difficult

and and often takes quite a bit of

practice around using specific skills

and stuff like that um sometimes the

quickest way to impact on your mind is

through your body so things like exercise

exercise music

music

um using your voice like singing and

stuff like that things like that

can can create quite big shifts in the

moment but also human connection so for

example you know when you if you've been um

you know kind of pent up intense and

then or you felt unsafe and then someone

hugs you and you burst into tears and

it's that kind of shift of

of emotion and so you know things like

human connection movement music

you can utilize those to good effect you

know they if they

different people are different and so

you know one thing will work for one

person and something different work for

someone else you know i don't know my

husband likes to listen to kind of

really like old-school new york hip-hop

and stuff and that puts him in a great

mood it puts me in a terrible mood i

hate it so is it kind of you know that

everyone has a different um experience

of things like music or exercise

but if you can understand your own

experience what works for you

then definitely then utilize those to

create even small shifts in the moment

because a small shift can just change

direction and then other things can help

to kind of move it forward

what about sleep

how important is sleep in in terms of

our mood and mindset oh so important so

important and

you know that's kind of a battle i've

been going on because because you know

with this kind of work and the demands

of of you know creating content um

alongside having three small children

it's it hasn't been unusual for me to

kind of be up in the night with with

children and then be getting up at five

to make videos before i take them to

school and like you know just

it's not sustainable that kind of

lifestyle and but i notice

if i've not had enough sleep um for you

know a few days

it will impact on how i feel and it'll

impact on my performance and how

effective i am at work and what i'm

doing um and so you know

you have it's something you just have to

take seriously um

i think and something that i don't know

in our culture there's this kind of

shift towards

what's the saying like you you sleep

when you die and all that rubbish you

know that kind of well you will die

sooner if you don't sleep so you know

let's weigh this up so it's one of those

things it feels like when there's

more to be done than can be done

um it's so tempting all the time to

to ditch on that bit of extra sleep that

that you know would be good for you

um but it's yeah i think it's something

that we all have to just always remind

ourselves you gotta you gotta come back

to it and you've got to

you've got to give your body what it

needs do you feel like you've got that

balance now

i think it's always i think it's always

a tight rape isn't it you know like you

something will happen and and there'll

be a late night or an early morning and

that shifts again and there's no

recovery because you know children are

waking up early and stuff

i think while i've got a balance i hate

the idea that i might perpetuate this

notion that i've got it right and that

you know just do what i do because i've

got this perfect life and it's

absolutely not that way and something

that i think is detrimental you know in

kind of social media and things like

that that can can really catch people

out is the idea that you look at someone

online and you assume

that they have it all sorted and that

they don't have problems and they don't

struggle with normal human stuff that we

all struggle with

and and so i've tried to sort of

keep that honesty all the way along but

yeah these you know i mean these are

great tools and they really really help

but it doesn't stop life throwing stuff

at you

it doesn't make you invincible and i say

say that in the introduction this isn't

the key to a problem-free life

it's an arsenal of tools that you can

use to face those problems with that

will ensure you can kind of get through it

talking about all of that so you know

the success you've had and the impact

it's had on you know your life and

having to wake up sometimes that god

knows what time to film a tic toc video

um one of the things i read about in

psychology is this idea that our

motivation can start to diminish when

something becomes

extrinsically motivated so when some

when you're paid to do something your

motivation to do the task weirdly

diminishes even you know even if you

enjoyed it before being paid to do so so

have you felt that in your life that now

that tick tock and making videos has

become work

the motivation to do it

is is shifting at all it can do i think

there's the temptation for it to do that

isn't there when when things shift

um and that's why i think it's been so

important to me um

to keep in mind i had i think if i

didn't have that initial reason for you

know i wanted to share this this really

good information that's usually locked

away in the therapy room

i probably it just wasn't

me so it wasn't it wasn't

enough of a pull you know i didn't have

any interest in being kind of public

person that kind of thing so it wouldn't

have been enough for me to work that

hard on it

and it's

yeah as long as i keep that

that thought or that value in my mind

about you know sharing knowledge that

can help people with their mental health then

then

then that enables me to keep going

but has it shifted um

what in terms of becoming less motivated yeah

yeah

no i think there was a period where it

felt like just a grind of work when um

not the writing i loved the writing

but then there was obviously this

pressure to keep

you know putting content out there and i

can't just disappear for six months and um

and that pressure felt like but i think

that was a symptom of overload of just okay

okay

i've got to write a book i've got to be

a mom and it's a lockdown and we're

homeschooling and

i've got to get video on every day and

you know that that for me that's a sign

of overload and

that in turn influences your motivation

in the moment but i guess i'm aware that motivation

motivation

is something i can't rely on anyway it's

a feeling and it comes and goes so some

days it will feel like a grind and other

days it will feel really exciting you

know coming to do this and meet you and

that you know that stuff's kind of really

really wonderful

wonderful

and some days you know i'm i'm in my

therapy room on my own with the camera

going got to say something profound now

you know what

find something um so you know and i

think it's awareness of

every job has its ups and downs i can't

rely on feeling like it all the time i

have to remember why i started it and

the values behind it to keep me going

what have you so that term overload was

interesting because i've never really

heard of someone describing it like that

um typically people say things like

burnout or whatever else what is the um

what is i guess the cause and or the

cure for people that are feeling

overload because i guarantee you like 95

plus of people listening to this now

especially in the world we live in will

be feeling some sense of relative

subjective overload in their lives

including me yeah i think we're

subjected to these kind of ideals of

everything aren't we and you know um

for parents there's this kind of um all

these images about what it means to be

the ideal parent depending on what kind

of content you're consuming and then

there's these these ideas of the ideal

business person or the ideal author or

the ideal social media

you know whatever and

and because we're subjected to so many

of them

we we then just over extended we're

trying to do everything perfectly and

it's impossible and then we feel

terrible and we feel like we're failing

or we're at fault rather than

the culture that says

you can be anything you want to be

you know actually

it's okay to decide

this is what i want my life to look like

and that's okay

you know it's just it's okay for it to

be like that and and for people to have

goals that are smaller than others you

know it's um i think it's

it probably leads to a much more

psychologically healthy outcome

i kind of bring that that back to a

point that i mentioned earlier and i'm

probably just asking this for my own

interest but your

theoretically you're you're heading in

the direction of maybe having

20 30 40 million followers

yeah i don't know um

and then the demands on your time are

going be people are gonna be offering

you your own tv show and they're gonna

be asking you to write seven books on a

seven year on a seven book deal and

everyone's gonna want you on loose women

and itv's good morning you know all of

these it's gonna be constant so

how do you

how are you going to navigate all of that

that um

i'll probably call you and say stephen

what we're going to do

advise me

um i don't i honestly don't know and and

that's the direction of travel you're

going in right you're producing more and

more content which is going to grow your

audience even more your books as smash

hit four times number one sunday time's

best seller you're going in that

direction yeah and i guess um in all

honesty my barometer is always

my family so my children and

i will only ever do

um as much as i can do while i'm being

the mum i want to be i think and i won't

always get that right and i haven't

along the way there have been times when

i thought no this is too much i need to

pull back and um

and things like that so

i think yeah that's my kind of center

point really because that is

you know where my core values lie and

that's the most important role i have as

far as i'm concerned and so i guess i

will always use that as as the baseline

you know is this going to have a

detrimental effect on my family

or not um and what can i do within that

yeah and that's kind of a values filter

i guess yeah in many respects

these feelings we have these emotions we

have i've always contended with um and i

think society has a role to play in

telling us how to manage the emotions we

feel when we go through life you know on

one hand you have this

sentiment where it's like kind of just

shrug it off ignore it keep going

which doesn't seem to be possible with

like deep emotions actually seems to be

that you're just compartmentalizing it

in the background and it's going to

erode your brain from subconsciously and

the other one is that you know the other

narrative we hear is to when you feel

strong emotions to really like embrace

them and to like but that feels like it

can be a bit too consuming that i might

not get out of bed in the morning if i

really sit and wallow in my emotions so

what is the balance of embracing

emotions or kind of shrugging them off

and ignoring them yeah and actually it's

quite sort of complex work when um when

you look at sort of what happens in the

therapy room um you know there are

people who when they experience emotion

it's quite unsafe for them because the

coping structures that they've had

throughout life have been unsafe or

dangerous ones and so um you know we'll

never kind of advise people to just you

know open the floodgates and allow

everything in it's very sort of careful

and and

um there's a process of gearing people

up with the tools and i often talk to

people about this when when they're

thinking about going to something like a

trauma therapy right

so um while that involves

going over the trauma no decent

therapist would ever get you to do that

without first gearing you up with the

tools to be able to cope with the

emotion that comes up so um

for anyone who feels like they for

example kind of shut down emotionally

and sort of block it out

you want to open up gradually to things

and open up gradually to emotions that

feel maybe less dangerous or less um

sort of overwhelming in small ways

in supported ways as well so that you

you know you can manage it and it's not

going to completely um

be overbearing so

but i guess on a kind of day-to-day level

level

lots of people don't even recognize that

they're blocking they just recognize

um that

whenever they've done something at work

that's embarrassing and they feel awful

they just go home and crack open the

fridge and they're just looking for

anything or maybe it's go on netflix for

like six hours and block out the world

or gaming or

whatever it is

and and so often it's hidden in the

behavior people will say i'm fine with

emotion and but i spoke 50 a day and you

know it's a kind of

you know what

true what's the function of this and

that and the other and it's always about

looking at it with curiosity not

judgment but curiosity why am i doing

that what's the function of that what's

it doing for me and and often it'll be

some level of safety around something

that's uncomfortable but it's really key

that there's no judgment there because

it's something that we all do it's it's human

human

and and that's because our brains are so

brilliant at

taking over for us and doing something

very quickly that we need to make things

better to make us comfortable to feel

comfortable in some way even if it's

some yeah

destructive medication or something um

we have a behavioral response to some

stress or emotion we're feeling and

maybe not confronting i think i did that

a lot when people used to ask me how i

dealt with running this big global

business 700 employees around the world

when times got really tough i mean on

the worst days where there was no money

in the bank and payday was today those

kind of days

um i used to i used to i think i used to

say on interviews and stuff that i used

to come up with all this nonsense about

how i dealt with it and how i coped with

it but in hindsight one of the things i

came to learn was the only times i ever

got sick or my skin ever got bad were on like

two days after that those really high

stress moments so on the surface i was

kind of shrugging off and playing it

cool but my body

as the famous book goes held the score

my body would tell me even if my

conscious mind wouldn't admit it my body

would tell me and then even more

recently i've noticed that in certain

situations where i'm pretending

everything is fine

i'll notice maybe my eating habits or my

other habits get a little bit more

extreme and out of control and i and i

always thought i was invincible i always

thought i was some tough guy and i think

people followed me well i don't know but

i think they kind of they saw me as that

as being this kind of like you know mentally

mentally

perfect you know resilient character but

even i've noticed that in my behavior

and it's been so interesting to just pay

attention to it

it's sometimes difficult because

especially if you do

engage in these kind of coping

mechanisms shall we say a lot you might

find them harder to notice but for me i

don't so when i see any shift in my

behavior like i remember

going through a pattern where i was just

i was eating crap again and i thought

why am i doing oh yeah because of

that thing you've not addressed

that's playing on your mind every time

you wake up yeah and then my skin tells

me straight away i get some like

breakout on my skin um

men are the worst at this i mean so they

say they're the worst at talking about

how they feel

because the stigmas and stuff yeah

certainly i mean about 75 of my

followers are female

but saying that of the of the

male followers that i have they're among

some of the most engaged and asked

questions and um you know come up with

new topics and and

respond really positively in comments

and things and

and so i think there is a shift in the

right direction and i think

i think social media has had a lot to do

with actually it's enabled people to

start having a conversation that they

wouldn't dream of having face-to-face

with people

um and certainly i recognized that in

when i was just working in my private practice

practice i

i wanted to do it around the family so i

couldn't do it all so i kind of left the

nhs and i thought i would just work in

like school hours and i'll manage it

around that kind of thing so

um i thought i would have to advertise

and i never did and that's because

well therapy is a really private thing

when you're really struggling

when it works and you get better

and then you're doing fine and it

finishes and you go off about your life

and then you come across someone who's

struggling and they go

that really helped me try that

and so actually all of my work was based

on word of mouth

and and i think that's

happening more and more that people once they

they struggle

struggle

work out a way to get through it and

then believe in the in the tools that

they learned whatever they were they're

willing to share that and and because

they don't want to see other people go

through the same thing and i think

that's a bit of the shift of that stigma um

that that people are going oh yeah i

went through that or something similar

go and try that it really helps and if

people are sad at home and there's

something that they know they haven't

addressed that's playing on their mind

that they're thinking about a lot often

and trying to just kind of

compartmentalize and not

what would you say to those people like

because you know they might be seeing

the the behavioral symptoms of

not addressing that thing what would you

how do we how do we get it out of the

back room and

prevent it from causing us

behavioral self-harm well i guess you know

know

some people will go to to therapy

because they'll have access to that

others won't even consider it or have

access to it for whatever reason um

and i think whatever the situation

human contact and human connection

is is everything if you can find someone

that you trust to talk to

and even let's say worst case scenario

you don't have anyone you can trust to

talk to or you feel so awful about this

particular situation you can't bear to

talk to anyone

write it down

just use words use art whatever it is

try and get to grips with

what what could possibly be going on

here start reflecting on experiences

not with judgment but just looking at

what's happening what happens here

what happens before that what what leads

up to it that's a lot of what happens in

therapy actually is you know people come

in with a feeling oh felt this awful thing

thing

and then and then we'll look at okay

what led up to that let's go back a week

and let's work to it and you know what

made you vulnerable to that and then

equally what came after what did you do

did it make things worse did it help a

lot of those things that

that we end up doing habitually are the

things that work instantly and they're

addictive because they work instantly

right it's going to the fridge or

grabbing the wine or whatever it is that

they're addictive because they give us

instant relief but in the long term they keep us stuck so they're the things that

keep us stuck so they're the things that then get us in that cycle of

then get us in that cycle of the next time you have that feeling

the next time you have that feeling you feel even more need for that that

you feel even more need for that that safety behavior or that blocking

safety behavior or that blocking behavior because it worked so quickly

behavior because it worked so quickly last time and and actually the things

last time and and actually the things that tend to work in the long term are

that tend to work in the long term are hardest in the moment like sitting with

hardest in the moment like sitting with it and feeling it and using skills to

it and feeling it and using skills to get yourself through it so it's not an

get yourself through it so it's not an easy ride

depressed know

know i you

the 30-second uh hack the 30-second secret that's what this

the 30-second secret that's what this title is going to be of this video it's

title is going to be of this video it's going to be the 30-second secret to get

going to be the 30-second secret to get yourself out of any bad situation and

yourself out of any bad situation and everyone will click it and they'll

everyone will click it and they'll realize that there's a lot of new ones

realize that there's a lot of new ones um another thing that i get asked all

um another thing that i get asked all the time and i'm sure you get asked

the time and i'm sure you get asked about all the time and something you

about all the time and something you wrote about in chapter 19 of your book

wrote about in chapter 19 of your book is this topic of confidence it seems to

is this topic of confidence it seems to be at the very heart and core of um a

be at the very heart and core of um a lot of issues we do we we have in our

lot of issues we do we we have in our lives the lack of confidence

lives the lack of confidence but also it seems to be the cause of a

but also it seems to be the cause of a lot of good things that happen to us if

lot of good things that happen to us if we have confidence so

we have confidence so quite people always ask me when i do q

quite people always ask me when i do q and a's and stuff they say how do you

and a's and stuff they say how do you build confidence and there was this

build confidence and there was this really lovely quote in your book that um

really lovely quote in your book that um i really really resonated with that said

i really really resonated with that said confidence cannot grow if we are never

confidence cannot grow if we are never willing to be without it so when people

willing to be without it so when people ask you that question dr julie smith

ask you that question dr julie smith what do you say how do you build your

what do you say how do you build your confidence

confidence yeah so i did a video on this recently

yeah so i did a video on this recently actually where we

actually where we i don't know what we were thinking but

i don't know what we were thinking but we used kind of balloons with a tube

we used kind of balloons with a tube that went between the balloons and i had

that went between the balloons and i had this idea that um if one of those

this idea that um if one of those balloons was confidence and the other

balloons was confidence and the other one was vulnerability if you're only

one was vulnerability if you're only ever willing to be with your confidence

ever willing to be with your confidence so if you're only ever willing to be in

so if you're only ever willing to be in the situations where you feel confident

the situations where you feel confident then you're it can't grow it can't it

then you're it can't grow it can't it can't sort of grow beyond that let's say

can't sort of grow beyond that let's say um in the pandemic being at home feel

um in the pandemic being at home feel you know you're confident at home you

you know you're confident at home you feel comfortable at home but being

feel comfortable at home but being outside you feel vulnerable and so it's

outside you feel vulnerable and so it's really hard to go to the supermarket and

really hard to go to the supermarket and it's really hard to go out to a bar with

it's really hard to go out to a bar with friends now and if you're not willing to

friends now and if you're not willing to be without that confident feeling that

be without that confident feeling that you have when you're at home

you have when you're at home then

then your confidence can't grow it's not

your confidence can't grow it's not going to grow sitting at home and that's

going to grow sitting at home and that's where in therapy we talk about you know

where in therapy we talk about you know the most important stuff is the stuff

the most important stuff is the stuff you do in between sessions in your real

you do in between sessions in your real life

life um and so

um and so for anyone you know i often say to

for anyone you know i often say to people

people if there's something that that you

if there's something that that you really want to master but it makes you

really want to master but it makes you nervous do as much as you possibly can

nervous do as much as you possibly can in in manageable doses

in in manageable doses because the thing that you do every day

because the thing that you do every day will become your comfort zone so it will

will become your comfort zone so it will gradually become easier you'll become

gradually become easier you'll become more confident at your ability to do it

more confident at your ability to do it but your the way that your brain works

but your the way that your brain works is through repetition so the more you do

is through repetition so the more you do something the more your brain will

something the more your brain will get better at automating it for you

get better at automating it for you you talk about that same sort of the

you talk about that same sort of the importance of repetition as it relates

importance of repetition as it relates to anxiety as well and i guess maybe

to anxiety as well and i guess maybe this is the answer to the question we

this is the answer to the question we were asking at the start about how to

were asking at the start about how to deal with all of this noise maybe it's

deal with all of this noise maybe it's just more dealing doing more of it

just more dealing doing more of it yeah

yeah because it's getting used to the

because it's getting used to the feedback and what it means and what it

feedback and what it means and what it says about us and

says about us and how to cope with it

how to cope with it yeah you kind of you build up coping

yeah you kind of you build up coping strategies for it over time don't you

strategies for it over time don't you the more you do it um it's probably a

the more you do it um it's probably a mix of that and making

mix of that and making um clear choices

um clear choices based on your values rather than your

based on your values rather than your feelings

feelings about how much of it you want to have

about how much of it you want to have how important is it to make

how important is it to make decisions not based on how you feel

decisions not based on how you feel right now

right now um

um it's okay to do that sometimes right we

it's okay to do that sometimes right we all do it because we're human

all do it because we're human but what happens is a lot of people will

but what happens is a lot of people will come to therapy when

come to therapy when they've lost touch with their values for

they've lost touch with their values for some reason maybe life has sort of

some reason maybe life has sort of pulled them in a different direction and

pulled them in a different direction and they're not totally aware of that

they're not totally aware of that they're just aware that everything just

they're just aware that everything just feels kind of

feels kind of meaningless or i just feel lost and i'm

meaningless or i just feel lost and i'm not sure why i don't feel the way i want

not sure why i don't feel the way i want to

to and often when we when we act based on

and often when we when we act based on how we want to feel now or how we don't

how we want to feel now or how we don't want to feel now

want to feel now that's that short term stuff that will

that's that short term stuff that will keep us stuck in the long term

keep us stuck in the long term whereas if you act based on values

whereas if you act based on values you can live a life of meaning it won't

you can live a life of meaning it won't always be comfortable

always be comfortable but it will mean something to you

but it will mean something to you and i bet i guess when you're in the

and i bet i guess when you're in the storm of a situation the emotional storm

storm of a situation the emotional storm of i don't know you've just found out

of i don't know you've just found out that you've been cheated on or

that you've been cheated on or something's happened and you're you fall

something's happened and you're you fall into that red

into that red you know haze of just rage and jealousy

you know haze of just rage and jealousy whatever it might be

whatever it might be the the question i guess from what you

the the question i guess from what you said we should be asking ourselves is

said we should be asking ourselves is like what are my values and how would um

like what are my values and how would um how do i behave in line with my

how do i behave in line with my deeply held values in this situation

deeply held values in this situation irrespective of the fact emotion is

irrespective of the fact emotion is telling me to go in

telling me to go in yeah run over that person with my car

yeah run over that person with my car yeah absolutely emotions get such a bad

yeah absolutely emotions get such a bad rap don't they because they kind of um

rap don't they because they kind of um you know talk about things like jealousy

you know talk about things like jealousy and people say you know i just could

and people say you know i just could never get jealous because it's an awful

never get jealous because it's an awful emotion or something like that and and

emotion or something like that and and actually

actually the emotion isn't

the emotion isn't the thing to judge the emotion is

the thing to judge the emotion is information it's your brain's best guess

information it's your brain's best guess at what might be going on around you and

at what might be going on around you and your brain sometimes gets it right and

your brain sometimes gets it right and sometimes gets it wrong and it's your

sometimes gets it wrong and it's your job to work that out and so to look at

job to work that out and so to look at emotion with curiosity wow i'm feeling

emotion with curiosity wow i'm feeling really envious

really envious what's that about how can i you know how

what's that about how can i you know how can i work around this and work that out

can i work around this and work that out and how do i want to then respond that

and how do i want to then respond that to that how

to that how if i look back on this really difficult

if i look back on this really difficult moment in a year's time and i feel proud

moment in a year's time and i feel proud of how i dealt with it how would i need

of how i dealt with it how would i need to deal with it to feel that way not

to deal with it to feel that way not easy to do in the moment because these

easy to do in the moment because these moments happen quite quickly sometimes

moments happen quite quickly sometimes um and that's okay to make mistakes and

um and that's okay to make mistakes and then and then move on that's probably a

then and then move on that's probably a different subject but

different subject but the emotions get judged

the emotions get judged but if we can look at emotions with

but if we can look at emotions with curiosity instead which is a lot of what

curiosity instead which is a lot of what happens in therapy actually is being

happens in therapy actually is being able to to notice whatever's in the room

able to to notice whatever's in the room sitting with it looking at it with

sitting with it looking at it with curiosity rather than judgment that's

curiosity rather than judgment that's one of the things i've come to learn

one of the things i've come to learn from doing this podcast is is this idea

from doing this podcast is is this idea that we are not our thoughts and in fact

that we are not our thoughts and in fact we can hold them out in front of us and

we can hold them out in front of us and analyze them for validity but we don't

analyze them for validity but we don't have to like

have to like directly associate or identify with all

directly associate or identify with all of our thoughts because i think we all

of our thoughts because i think we all go through life believing that the

go through life believing that the things that are being said in our minds

things that are being said in our minds are us saying them and are a reflection

are us saying them and are a reflection of exactly who we are and that's

of exactly who we are and that's incredibly dangerous especially in high

incredibly dangerous especially in high emotional situations right yeah causes

emotional situations right yeah causes people loads of problems when um when we

people loads of problems when um when we think that the thoughts that pop into

think that the thoughts that pop into our heads say something about who we are

our heads say something about who we are or you know that we chose them in some

or you know that we chose them in some way and and that's where this whole kind

way and and that's where this whole kind of there's a lot of stuff online isn't

of there's a lot of stuff online isn't there about you know only positive vibes

there about you know only positive vibes and only think positive thoughts and and

and only think positive thoughts and and if you do that you're setting yourself

if you do that you're setting yourself up to feel like a failure because it's

up to feel like a failure because it's not the way the human mind works and

not the way the human mind works and thoughts will pop into your head and

thoughts will pop into your head and that's your brain offering up ideas

that's your brain offering up ideas opinions judgments narratives but you

opinions judgments narratives but you know memories all that kind of thing

know memories all that kind of thing and it's what you do next with it you

and it's what you do next with it you know and and that's where people can

know and and that's where people can really struggle with intrusive thoughts

really struggle with intrusive thoughts for example so they'll have a thought

for example so they'll have a thought that feels bizarre to them or feels um

that feels bizarre to them or feels um aversive in some way and then judge

aversive in some way and then judge themselves for having had the thought

themselves for having had the thought and try desperately not to have it again

and try desperately not to have it again and when you try not to have a thought

and when you try not to have a thought you're already having it because you

you're already having it because you think don't think about whatever it is

think don't think about whatever it is and and so

and and so you know you're just setting yourself up

you know you're just setting yourself up to fail if you think if you're trying to

to fail if you think if you're trying to control what thoughts come into your

control what thoughts come into your head but if you allow them all to be

head but if you allow them all to be there and then you choose consciously

there and then you choose consciously what to do with them next or how much

what to do with them next or how much time to spend with each one

time to spend with each one then yeah it's closer to winning this is

then yeah it's closer to winning this is a two-part question but have you found

a two-part question but have you found that people who have lower self-esteem

that people who have lower self-esteem have um

have um a more unhealthy relationship with

a more unhealthy relationship with failure

failure and

and then my second question to that is how

then my second question to that is how does one go about building their

does one go about building their self-esteem

self-esteem is it evidence is it evidence based on

is it evidence is it evidence based on self-esteem like even if the evidence is

self-esteem like even if the evidence is wrong is it based on subjective evidence

wrong is it based on subjective evidence that we've acquired from our experiences

that we've acquired from our experiences well you know um there's been a lot more

well you know um there's been a lot more controversy around the the idea of

controversy around the the idea of self-esteem more recently

self-esteem more recently and the field and

and the field and and you know self-esteem is based on

and you know self-esteem is based on this idea is your sort of evaluation of

this idea is your sort of evaluation of yourself and so there was a lot of work

yourself and so there was a lot of work done

done in schools and stuff years ago around

in schools and stuff years ago around getting kids to think of what they were

getting kids to think of what they were good at and what they could achieve and

good at and what they could achieve and and their strengths and what they liked

and their strengths and what they liked about themselves

about themselves and

and and you know high self-esteem

and you know high self-esteem can be

can be lovely in that sense but it's not

lovely in that sense but it's not always useful depending on what

always useful depending on what situation you're in so um

situation you're in so um it's not necessarily useful to think

it's not necessarily useful to think i'm great in a situation where i'm not

i'm great in a situation where i'm not doing great you have to be honest with

doing great you have to be honest with yourself and so for me a much

yourself and so for me a much more helpful

more helpful way of looking at it is to to to look at

way of looking at it is to to to look at it in terms of self-compassion so your

it in terms of self-compassion so your self-esteem can be low but that doesn't

self-esteem can be low but that doesn't mean that

mean that you know the story's over and and things

you know the story's over and and things are awful for you

are awful for you if you you can have low self-esteem and

if you you can have low self-esteem and if you then treat yourself with

if you then treat yourself with compassion you're essentially doing

compassion you're essentially doing what's best for you and like as a young

what's best for you and like as a young but let's say i had um you know teenage

but let's say i had um you know teenage kids and one of them wasn't doing well

kids and one of them wasn't doing well in school and so didn't want to get up

in school and so didn't want to get up for school in the morning because they

for school in the morning because they felt like they were just you know a

felt like they were just you know a failure at school so maybe their

failure at school so maybe their self-esteem around school was low

self-esteem around school was low if we went with that then we would say

if we went with that then we would say okay well

okay well let's leave school then let's let's

let's leave school then let's let's let's have a day off let's let's go with

let's have a day off let's let's go with you know um let's indulge this

you know um let's indulge this whereas self-compassion

whereas self-compassion or showing compassion to someone in that

or showing compassion to someone in that way would mean okay what's the best

way would mean okay what's the best thing in this scenario so what's going

thing in this scenario so what's going to be most helpful to you and your

to be most helpful to you and your future in this

future in this is probably working out what's going

is probably working out what's going wrong and getting to school and and

wrong and getting to school and and tackling the problem right so um so yeah

tackling the problem right so um so yeah self-esteem can be

self-esteem can be um a sort of tricky subject really and

um a sort of tricky subject really and that people put a lot into it but it's

that people put a lot into it but it's one part of a bigger equation i think

one part of a bigger equation i think i guess it kind of links back to the

i guess it kind of links back to the point about confidence which is is our

point about confidence which is is our self-esteem based on a bunch of evidence

self-esteem based on a bunch of evidence we've kind of collected from our

we've kind of collected from our experiences about the world so i might

experiences about the world so i might have low self-esteem as it relates to

have low self-esteem as it relates to going on dates because of some childhood

going on dates because of some childhood rejections whatever and i i took that as

rejections whatever and i i took that as evidence that i am

evidence that i am unattractive and i've held that's part

unattractive and i've held that's part of my self-story for the last 15 years

of my self-story for the last 15 years for example um i used to think as you

for example um i used to think as you talk a lot about in your book that

talk a lot about in your book that as many people do and as a lot of like

as many people do and as a lot of like books have kind of promoted that you

books have kind of promoted that you could kind of just wake up in the

could kind of just wake up in the morning and look yourself in the mirror

morning and look yourself in the mirror and say i'm a rock star i'm going to be

and say i'm a rock star i'm going to be a millionaire you are beautiful you love

a millionaire you are beautiful you love yourself and you could walk out into

yourself and you could walk out into your day and just be that person but

your day and just be that person but so clearly

so clearly and you'll know this from

and you'll know this from your you know experience many years of

your you know experience many years of helping people that it just doesn't work

helping people that it just doesn't work and i can say that something to someone

and i can say that something to someone they can read my quote on instagram and

they can read my quote on instagram and i just absolutely know it's never gonna

i just absolutely know it's never gonna work because there's some kind of

work because there's some kind of evidence that they've accumulated over

evidence that they've accumulated over their life that is way stronger and

their life that is way stronger and opposes nice fluffy words yeah obviously

opposes nice fluffy words yeah obviously words provide very little evidence for

words provide very little evidence for anything other than a prompt i don't

anything other than a prompt i don't know yeah absolutely so your brain works

know yeah absolutely so your brain works like a scientist with evidence through

like a scientist with evidence through action so you know if you want to start

action so you know if you want to start to feel better about yourself

to feel better about yourself essentially the best way to do that is

essentially the best way to do that is through action and doing things that

through action and doing things that not not kind of flood the system and

not not kind of flood the system and make you feel really vulnerable but

make you feel really vulnerable but something that feels a challenge but

something that feels a challenge but manageable

manageable and then you get this little kind of

and then you get this little kind of step up and there's something else

step up and there's something else that's a challenge and manageable and

that's a challenge and manageable and you get to step up but yeah certainly

you get to step up but yeah certainly with you know words are powerful but um

with you know words are powerful but um things like affirmations i talk about in

things like affirmations i talk about in the book about how

the book about how not to completely throw them out but to

not to completely throw them out but to be sure about how you're using

be sure about how you're using affirmations so if someone already feels

affirmations so if someone already feels lovable and they read an affirmation

lovable and they read an affirmation that says i'm lovable it it'll probably

that says i'm lovable it it'll probably make them feel quite good for a minute

make them feel quite good for a minute and they can soak that in and enjoy that

and they can soak that in and enjoy that and it'll be kind of short-lived impact

and it'll be kind of short-lived impact if someone has uh doesn't believe that

if someone has uh doesn't believe that if someone has core beliefs that they're

if someone has core beliefs that they're not lovable and they're trying to repeat

not lovable and they're trying to repeat i am lovable um it can

i am lovable um it can almost be detrimental because it sets up

almost be detrimental because it sets up this internal argument where your mind

this internal argument where your mind also chips in with the reasons that

also chips in with the reasons that you're not and then you start kind of

you're not and then you start kind of battling it out in terms of well but

battling it out in terms of well but what about this and what about that and

what about this and what about that and then you end up having you know you're

then you end up having you know you're in turmoil so it can have a detrimental

in turmoil so it can have a detrimental effect if if that person is genuinely

effect if if that person is genuinely really struggling with low self-esteem

really struggling with low self-esteem or low confidence and that kind of thing

or low confidence and that kind of thing so i think affirmations can be more

so i think affirmations can be more helpful when they're instructional when

helpful when they're instructional when they're about you know

they're about you know when this do this and it will help you

when this do this and it will help you get through this difficult situation

get through this difficult situation like you know sports people use them and

like you know sports people use them and stuff like that and help them get

stuff like that and help them get through high pressure moments but in

through high pressure moments but in terms of turning around core beliefs

terms of turning around core beliefs probably not so much on high pressure

probably not so much on high pressure moments one thing that i i did recently

moments one thing that i i did recently which i thought was very interesting and

which i thought was very interesting and got opened my eyes to a whole new world

got opened my eyes to a whole new world was i did um i did a breath work session

was i did um i did a breath work session okay have you ever done breath work uh

okay have you ever done breath work uh not a huge amount of it but um it's

not a huge amount of it but um it's getting more popular isn't it yeah

getting more popular isn't it yeah and i i just got really intrigued by

and i i just got really intrigued by this idea that breath can have a really

this idea that breath can have a really profound impact on mood

profound impact on mood how we're feeling and specifically as

how we're feeling and specifically as you write about it in your book anxiety

you write about it in your book anxiety yeah talk to me about breath and the

yeah talk to me about breath and the role it plays and how we can use our

role it plays and how we can use our breathing to make ourselves feel less

breathing to make ourselves feel less anxious sure so it's one of the probably

anxious sure so it's one of the probably the first things that i

the first things that i will go through with someone because

will go through with someone because you'll get people um who come along for

you'll get people um who come along for therapy and that first you know it takes

therapy and that first you know it takes time right you have to get to know each

time right you have to get to know each other and that they're trying to

other and that they're trying to communicate their story and then a whole

communicate their story and then a whole week goes by before you see each other

week goes by before you see each other again and actually people often go to

again and actually people often go to therapy when they're in a really bad

therapy when they're in a really bad place and so they'll often be saying

place and so they'll often be saying is there something i can do in between

is there something i can do in between sessions that's going to help me get

sessions that's going to help me get through to next week and so if that

through to next week and so if that person is struggling with really high

person is struggling with really high anxiety that one thing that i'll you

anxiety that one thing that i'll you know is very quick to teach that they

know is very quick to teach that they can take away is something like a

can take away is something like a breathing exercise because it's one of

breathing exercise because it's one of the quickest ways that we can um you

the quickest ways that we can um you know slow the anxiety response so

know slow the anxiety response so if you're anxious your breathing will be

if you're anxious your breathing will be fast and shallow so kind of

fast and shallow so kind of yeah and if you do that for long enough

yeah and if you do that for long enough you actually start to feel quite panicky

you actually start to feel quite panicky yeah and um and that's because you know

yeah and um and that's because you know your your heart and your lungs are

your your heart and your lungs are connected so your heart's going to start

connected so your heart's going to start pounding to get all that oxygen around

pounding to get all that oxygen around your body and you'll kind of start

your body and you'll kind of start gearing up into action

gearing up into action so if you can slow your breathing down

so if you can slow your breathing down you can slow the whole process down i

you can slow the whole process down i think i'd

think i'd mention this in the book i've certainly

mention this in the book i've certainly done videos on it is um sort of box

done videos on it is um sort of box breathing or square breathing um where

breathing or square breathing um where you just you can if you're out and about

you just you can if you're out and about and you don't want anyone to really know

and you don't want anyone to really know what you're doing if you're on a bus or

what you're doing if you're on a bus or a meeting pick something like a door or

a meeting pick something like a door or a window or something

a window or something it's kind of box shape and you start

it's kind of box shape and you start with the kind of bottom left corner and

with the kind of bottom left corner and as you kind of trace your eyes up to the

as you kind of trace your eyes up to the top corner you're just counting in as

top corner you're just counting in as you breathe in and it's maybe like four

you breathe in and it's maybe like four seconds and then as you trace your eyes

seconds and then as you trace your eyes across the top uh that will be a pause

across the top uh that will be a pause so you're just holding a breath for four

so you're just holding a breath for four seconds and then you come back down with

seconds and then you come back down with an out breath or four seconds and then

an out breath or four seconds and then hold and so you're just kind of

hold and so you're just kind of breathing in four hold four out for hold

breathing in four hold four out for hold for so and it's just one way of when

for so and it's just one way of when you're out to give you a visual focus

you're out to give you a visual focus um that can help you to uh just monitor

um that can help you to uh just monitor okay and now i'm breathing in now i'm

okay and now i'm breathing in now i'm breathing out because when you're really

breathing out because when you're really really panicking

really panicking actually breathing slowly can feel

actually breathing slowly can feel really difficult to do um so you can use

really difficult to do um so you can use that kind of visual but also more

that kind of visual but also more recently some great research has been

recently some great research has been coming out about how to kind of

coming out about how to kind of it's helpful to extend the out breath so

it's helpful to extend the out breath so if you can it doesn't really matter what

if you can it doesn't really matter what the numbers are if you can make that out

the numbers are if you can make that out breath longer and more vigorous than

breath longer and more vigorous than your in-breath then that's going to help

your in-breath then that's going to help calm that response fairly quickly why

calm that response fairly quickly why does all of this matter because

does all of this matter because so my girlfriend started talking to me

so my girlfriend started talking to me about breath work and she started

about breath work and she started studying it and um so i went along kind

studying it and um so i went along kind of reluctantly what is this nonsense to

of reluctantly what is this nonsense to this breath work class and the guy sat

this breath work class and the guy sat me there and started talking to me about

me there and started talking to me about the like prehistoric reasons as to why

the like prehistoric reasons as to why when we're in high stress situations or

when we're in high stress situations or feeling anxious our breath changes and

feeling anxious our breath changes and when someone explains it to me in

when someone explains it to me in scientific terms i buy in and the way he

scientific terms i buy in and the way he explained it to me from like you know if

explained it to me from like you know if you're on ten thousand years ago and

you're on ten thousand years ago and you're in the savannah with africa and

you're in the savannah with africa and the lions running towards you your body

the lions running towards you your body prepares you in many ways for that fight

prepares you in many ways for that fight or flight response and the problem is in

or flight response and the problem is in the stimulated stressful world we live

the stimulated stressful world we live in we're kind of like living in fight or

in we're kind of like living in fight or flight a lot of the time and i and so

flight a lot of the time and i and so after hearing that from him and it's

after hearing that from him and it's been practicing a little bit

been practicing a little bit i've

i've become really really aware of the fact

become really really aware of the fact that when i am stressed my breath

that when i am stressed my breath basically it feels like it stopped

basically it feels like it stopped like i it's so shallow and so now i

like i it's so shallow and so now i override it and it's been such a

override it and it's been such a revelation in my life to try and

revelation in my life to try and override

override you know because you almost you don't

you know because you almost you don't see it you don't know what happens

see it you don't know what happens but for me i get the alert which is the

but for me i get the alert which is the feeling of tension in my body and kind

feeling of tension in my body and kind of stress

of stress and then i can do something about it but

and then i can do something about it but where does this

where does this you know was he right is that where all

you know was he right is that where all this breathing stuff comes from in like

this breathing stuff comes from in like meditation

meditation well yeah because you can't you know you

well yeah because you can't you know you don't have that kind of

don't have that kind of anxiety off switch right or you can't

anxiety off switch right or you can't directly choose to slow your heart rate

directly choose to slow your heart rate but because it's linked to other things

but because it's linked to other things that you can influence you have to use

that you can influence you have to use those as avenues in to sort of slow the

those as avenues in to sort of slow the whole process down and and

whole process down and and and and that's where you know we we

and and that's where you know we we really underestimate things like breath

really underestimate things like breath work and and slow breathing because they

work and and slow breathing because they seem too simple yeah and you know like

seem too simple yeah and you know like we want something complex or you know i

we want something complex or you know i want to pay for it yeah exactly and then

want to pay for it yeah exactly and then we can kind of believe in it and

we can kind of believe in it and actually we have the power to do some of

actually we have the power to do some of these things that make such a difference

these things that make such a difference and that's really where

and that's really where this whole thing grew out of was you

this whole thing grew out of was you know people saying to me in therapy why

know people saying to me in therapy why on earth has nobody told me this before

on earth has nobody told me this before this is not rocket science and it's

this is not rocket science and it's changing everything and this is

changing everything and this is brilliant i want to tell everyone i want

brilliant i want to tell everyone i want to you know and

to you know and and actually there's a lot of the

and actually there's a lot of the messages i get is people saying i've

messages i get is people saying i've told my nan i've told my auntie and

told my nan i've told my auntie and we're all doing it together thank you so

we're all doing it together thank you so much this is really you know but

much this is really you know but sometimes they are just really simple

sometimes they are just really simple things

things that you then don't forget and you once

that you then don't forget and you once you've got that tool you've got it then

you've got that tool you've got it then forever you know no one can take that

forever you know no one can take that from you that's why i wanted to talk

from you that's why i wanted to talk about it a lot is because it's had a big

about it a lot is because it's had a big impact on how i feel in those high

impact on how i feel in those high stress moments and i just wish someone

stress moments and i just wish someone had said that to me earlier that and

had said that to me earlier that and yeah you're right we're searching for

yeah you're right we're searching for complex solutions to these feelings we

complex solutions to these feelings we have in life over the years from doing

have in life over the years from doing this podcast and just general research

this podcast and just general research it's become becoming more and more

it's become becoming more and more apparent that really what i need to do

apparent that really what i need to do is just to live more like a human being

is just to live more like a human being and in fact the world i'm living in is

and in fact the world i'm living in is doing the opposite of that it's making

doing the opposite of that it's making me live like some kind of cyborg

me live like some kind of cyborg that doesn't have emotions and

that doesn't have emotions and everything i mean you talk about i think

everything i mean you talk about i think it's chapter five of your book where you

it's chapter five of your book where you talk about the basics

talk about the basics and sleep nutrition connection these are

and sleep nutrition connection these are all things that exercise these are all

all things that exercise these are all things that human beings have always

things that human beings have always done and in fact the avoidance of those

done and in fact the avoidance of those things in the modern world is causing us

things in the modern world is causing us all of these like symptoms that we're

all of these like symptoms that we're diagnosing as

diagnosing as flaws or you know signs that we are

flaws or you know signs that we are broken and i have a chapter in my book

broken and i have a chapter in my book which is called just the journey back to

which is called just the journey back to human as if like at some point we took a

human as if like at some point we took a wrong turning and we we actually just

wrong turning and we we actually just need to get back to being humans again

need to get back to being humans again and i felt that in your writing but i

and i felt that in your writing but i imagine

imagine how do you feel about all of that this

how do you feel about all of that this idea that we've kind of yeah and what it

idea that we've kind of yeah and what it is to be human yeah because it feels

is to be human yeah because it feels like a it feels like you have to battle

like a it feels like you have to battle to do normal stuff

to do normal stuff you know to do human things exactly

you know to do human things exactly and it's and it is because of i guess

and it's and it is because of i guess the sorts of media that we consume

the sorts of media that we consume that tell us you know you've got to do

that tell us you know you've got to do more and be more and have more and earn

more and be more and have more and earn more and spend more and and and it's

more and spend more and and and it's sort of this treadmill that keeps

sort of this treadmill that keeps speeding up and everyone's going why am

speeding up and everyone's going why am i so worn out like what's going on and

i so worn out like what's going on and then they blame themselves for feeling

then they blame themselves for feeling worn out when actually it's this

worn out when actually it's this environment that

environment that and all these kind of pressures that

and all these kind of pressures that sort of make that worse and so yeah i

sort of make that worse and so yeah i mean and that's where you know when you

mean and that's where you know when you ask me about kind of you know what's

ask me about kind of you know what's next and and and how do you cope with

next and and and how do you cope with all that it always has to come back to

all that it always has to come back to uh you know we're in privileged

uh you know we're in privileged positions right where

positions right where it can feel like you don't have choice

it can feel like you don't have choice you have to just keep going but actually

you have to just keep going but actually the thing about privilege is that you

the thing about privilege is that you then get to choose

then get to choose what's going to be most healthy for me

what's going to be most healthy for me here what's going to be most meaningful

here what's going to be most meaningful and and give me the life that i want to

and and give me the life that i want to have and and so that you're basing your

have and and so that you're basing your decisions on on your own values rather

decisions on on your own values rather than somebody else's it's very true

than somebody else's it's very true and i think that's maybe one of the real

and i think that's maybe one of the real the thoughts that is quite liberating

the thoughts that is quite liberating from

from the potential stress of the situation

the potential stress of the situation which is it is always a choice and you

which is it is always a choice and you have so much you'd rather probably

have so much you'd rather probably rather have the choice

rather have the choice yeah right because else you'd probably

yeah right because else you'd probably still be striving to to get to a

still be striving to to get to a position of privilege and choice um yeah

position of privilege and choice um yeah because there are people that don't have

because there are people that don't have choice right and that's where something

choice right and that's where something else about in the structure in the book

else about in the structure in the book is about how

is about how people talk about just eliminate your

people talk about just eliminate your stress and yeah okay you know say that

stress and yeah okay you know say that to the single mom who works 40 hours a

to the single mom who works 40 hours a week to keep a roof over a kid's head or

week to keep a roof over a kid's head or you know that lots of stresses can't be

you know that lots of stresses can't be chosen or you know maybe you're waiting

chosen or you know maybe you're waiting for uh results from the doctor about

for uh results from the doctor about some tests you had and the stress is

some tests you had and the stress is just hanging over you know those sorts

just hanging over you know those sorts of stresses you don't choose those

of stresses you don't choose those they're a normal part of life and there

they're a normal part of life and there are tools to kind of deal with those um

are tools to kind of deal with those um but when there is you know there will be

but when there is you know there will be certain parts of life

certain parts of life where we can say yes or no and that's

where we can say yes or no and that's when we need to exercise that control i

when we need to exercise that control i think

think death

death that was a big

that was a big turning point it's not a transition

turning point it's not a transition but you talk about death in your book

but you talk about death in your book and it's funny because i sat here with

and it's funny because i sat here with my previous guest and he talked about

my previous guest and he talked about um the importance of

um the importance of accepting your own kind of mortality

accepting your own kind of mortality and the change that can have on you

and the change that can have on you what is your what is your position on

what is your what is your position on this topic do you think it's important

this topic do you think it's important to understand that you're going to die

to understand that you're going to die and if so why

and if so why yeah and it's something i kind of got i

yeah and it's something i kind of got i you know um up to my neck and when i was

you know um up to my neck and when i was sort of researching for the book and

sort of researching for the book and stuff like that because i included a

stuff like that because i included a chapter on grief

chapter on grief and and loss and

and and loss and and then i started to um kind of read

and then i started to um kind of read more widely about you know

more widely about you know dealing with

dealing with your own impending death and and you

your own impending death and and you know for people who have um sort of

know for people who have um sort of illnesses and things like that when they

illnesses and things like that when they know that death is coming and so i just

know that death is coming and so i just got really kind of into all that stuff

got really kind of into all that stuff and there's some great work out there by

and there's some great work out there by some brilliant people around

some brilliant people around you know dealing with the idea that

you know dealing with the idea that it's all going to end and the idea that

it's all going to end and the idea that that can

that can be a source of meaning

be a source of meaning it is a source of fear right everybody

it is a source of fear right everybody has to deal with that fear um but it can

has to deal with that fear um but it can also be a source of

also be a source of uh

uh of meaning in life today so it can be a

of meaning in life today so it can be a reason why

reason why you get up and you go with that value of

you get up and you go with that value of enthusiasm today or it can be a source

enthusiasm today or it can be a source of uh you know that's why i get up and i

of uh you know that's why i get up and i practice gratitude or why i always tell

practice gratitude or why i always tell my girlfriend i love her every day or

my girlfriend i love her every day or whatever it is

whatever it is that it can can also be

that it can can also be a way to live well

a way to live well there's a book called influence which

there's a book called influence which and one of the five principles of

and one of the five principles of influence is this idea of scarcity it's

influence is this idea of scarcity it's really a marketing book it tells you how

really a marketing book it tells you how to make

to make people believe things have more value

people believe things have more value and one of the ideas in it is that you

and one of the ideas in it is that you make you convince them that it's scarce

make you convince them that it's scarce which is why if you go on booking.com

which is why if you go on booking.com it'll say one hotel room left 75 people

it'll say one hotel room left 75 people just looked at this hotel they're about

just looked at this hotel they're about to book it quick and um that convinces

to book it quick and um that convinces people that the thing is of more value

people that the thing is of more value and i think for me

and i think for me death does that i actually have a

death does that i actually have a sand timer

sand timer over there on that next to that little

over there on that next to that little white head for that very reason and i

white head for that very reason and i talk about it in my book a lot because i

talk about it in my book a lot because i do believe that most of us don't go

do believe that most of us don't go through life actually believing or

through life actually believing or realizing that things are finite and

realizing that things are finite and once we do

once we do we realize that they're scarce then we

we realize that they're scarce then we will attribute more value to them which

will attribute more value to them which means that every moment is so

means that every moment is so unbelievably more precious

unbelievably more precious and that can help you filter out you

and that can help you filter out you know the decisions you're making there's

know the decisions you're making there's so much there's so many studies been

so much there's so many studies been done when they interviewed people on

done when they interviewed people on their death beds and asked them about

their death beds and asked them about what really mattered and i want to get

what really mattered and i want to get to the point every single day where i'm

to the point every single day where i'm making my decisions from the lens of

making my decisions from the lens of death bed regret

death bed regret if that makes sense i think that will

if that makes sense i think that will probably keep me more in line with that

probably keep me more in line with that those values you talk about yeah

those values you talk about yeah absolutely and actually um it's an

absolutely and actually um it's an exercise that's done in acceptance and

exercise that's done in acceptance and commitment therapy where um you talk to

commitment therapy where um you talk to people about um let's say you know you

people about um let's say you know you reach the ripe old age of 104 and you're

reach the ripe old age of 104 and you're sat in your arm chair and you're looking

sat in your arm chair and you're looking back on the chapter of your life that is

back on the chapter of your life that is to come

to come what would it need to include for you to

what would it need to include for you to be looking back smiling and feeling like

be looking back smiling and feeling like yeah did it right there that was that

yeah did it right there that was that was how i wanted it to go so not

was how i wanted it to go so not necessarily what you would want to

necessarily what you would want to happen to you but again it's how you

happen to you but again it's how you would want to live and the attitude that

would want to live and the attitude that you would want to face life with how

you would want to face life with how would you answer that question

would you answer that question me personally

me personally if i can if i can touch people's lives

if i can if i can touch people's lives with something that's positive

with something that's positive in a world where you can you know your

in a world where you can you know your life can be touched by so many things

life can be touched by so many things that aren't positive

that aren't positive while at the same time

while at the same time still being the parent that i want to be

still being the parent that i want to be and being

and being present in my children's lives and being

present in my children's lives and being a positive impact for them

a positive impact for them um gearing them up for their own

um gearing them up for their own adventures then

adventures then yeah that'll be prickly for them

in the book you say when it comes to a happy life relationships beat money fame

happy life relationships beat money fame social class and all the things we're

social class and all the things we're told to put eff into i talked about the

told to put eff into i talked about the neglecting my relationship over the

neglecting my relationship over the weekend because of

weekend because of some of these things you've described

some of these things you've described here

here um so from your from your practice what

um so from your from your practice what have you come to to know about the

have you come to to know about the importance of relationships whether

importance of relationships whether romantic or platonic

romantic or platonic you know i don't think there is

you know i don't think there is a therapy session i've ever

a therapy session i've ever conducted without

conducted without it

it coming to relationships at some point

coming to relationships at some point you know it is the fabric of us isn't it

you know it is the fabric of us isn't it it's what we

it's what we um

um it's what we kind of live for in many

it's what we kind of live for in many ways and

ways and and that's why i included it in the

and that's why i included it in the section around meaningful life because

section around meaningful life because um i mean i i touch on it and it's such

um i mean i i touch on it and it's such a huge subject that you know you could

a huge subject that you know you could write reams and reams of books on

write reams and reams of books on relationships because they feel so

relationships because they feel so complex sometimes don't they right we

complex sometimes don't they right we just we're constantly making mistakes

just we're constantly making mistakes and not getting it right and having to

and not getting it right and having to sort of you know reevaluate and shift

sort of you know reevaluate and shift and

and and

and no one again it's one of those things no

no one again it's one of those things no one gives you a manual for it and yet

one gives you a manual for it and yet when it's going right

when it's going right life feels incredible and when they're

life feels incredible and when they're going wrong

going wrong everything feels like it's falling apart

everything feels like it's falling apart and so

and so you know i think

you know i think it's it's an area certainly that i want

it's it's an area certainly that i want to move into more and more because i see

to move into more and more because i see the value of it and i see

the value of it and i see how it just makes all the difference for

how it just makes all the difference for so many people you know human connection

so many people you know human connection is our sort of inbuilt

is our sort of inbuilt stress resilience mechanism if you like

stress resilience mechanism if you like so

so you've only got if you're feeling

you've only got if you're feeling something if you're feeling high in

something if you're feeling high in stress for example

stress for example and you have a good quality human

and you have a good quality human connection or contact with someone

connection or contact with someone changes the way that your body deals

changes the way that your body deals with that stress i mean that's

with that stress i mean that's that's no tablet that's no

that's no tablet that's no nothing it's it's

nothing it's it's um it's how we're built and it's we're

um it's how we're built and it's we're supposed to live in groups together and

supposed to live in groups together and look after each other and

look after each other and and even in our kind of very

and even in our kind of very individualist society where it

individualist society where it makes us value other things and pulls us

makes us value other things and pulls us away

away we have to keep reminding ourselves of

we have to keep reminding ourselves of what it means to be human being i think

what it means to be human being i think although life doesn't give you a manual

although life doesn't give you a manual for how to navigate a relationship

for how to navigate a relationship social media at least

social media at least sets an expectation

sets an expectation of how a relationship should be

of how a relationship should be specifically a romantic relationship and

specifically a romantic relationship and this causes a lot of problems right so

this causes a lot of problems right so we don't get the manual but we get this

we don't get the manual but we get this expectation yeah perfect all the time

expectation yeah perfect all the time right right and you talk about this and

right right and you talk about this and you there's a section in your book about

you there's a section in your book about the relationship myths which i was

the relationship myths which i was reading through and the two that i

reading through and the two that i really wanted to touch on was the first

really wanted to touch on was the first one you've kind of alluded to there

one you've kind of alluded to there which is

which is um love shouldn't be hard

um love shouldn't be hard and i in my

and i in my in my current relationship we ended up

in my current relationship we ended up actually breaking up because we

actually breaking up because we encountered an issue and i don't think

encountered an issue and i don't think the world at my very very naive age of

the world at my very very naive age of 24 i think at the time

24 i think at the time told me that relationships had issues

told me that relationships had issues i'd only ever seen from social media

i'd only ever seen from social media perfection so

perfection so i the minute my relationship was good

i the minute my relationship was good but challenging i thought it was

but challenging i thought it was disposable right because social media

disposable right because social media has made perfect look so normal yeah

has made perfect look so normal yeah and the second one is um

and the second one is um which i find really interesting and

which i find really interesting and people find this one quite controversial

people find this one quite controversial which is this idea that you don't always

which is this idea that you don't always need to be together

need to be together me and my girlfriend are very very good

me and my girlfriend are very very good like we're very very comfortable with

like we're very very comfortable with each other to the point that and people

each other to the point that and people will find this a bit shocking

will find this a bit shocking if we go away somewhere like we go to

if we go away somewhere like we go to another country

another country we will often have separate bedrooms

we will often have separate bedrooms and because she will have her own space

and because she will have her own space where she sets up all of her stuff she

where she sets up all of her stuff she likes to meditate and put her crystals

likes to meditate and put her crystals out and all of this stuff and i'll have

out and all of this stuff and i'll have my own room

my own room my own bedroom and then we'll sleep in

my own bedroom and then we'll sleep in the same bed but we have our own space

the same bed but we have our own space and also even if we go on holiday for a

and also even if we go on holiday for a month we might i might say to a halfway

month we might i might say to a halfway through the holiday babe i'm going to go

through the holiday babe i'm going to go in that direction for five days i'll see

in that direction for five days i'll see you then i'll see you in five days time

you then i'll see you in five days time and we've got to a point where we're

and we've got to a point where we're really comfortable with that but i can't

really comfortable with that but i can't think of another relationship i've been

think of another relationship i've been in where any of those things would have

in where any of those things would have been greeted with anything but like

been greeted with anything but like anger or like what

anger or like what you know what i mean yeah and i think

you know what i mean yeah and i think sometimes that that response from people

sometimes that that response from people comes out of our insecurity about what's

comes out of our insecurity about what's right because nobody sort of talks about

right because nobody sort of talks about these things or they haven't

these things or they haven't historically and so nobody really knows

historically and so nobody really knows if the way they're having their

if the way they're having their relationship is the same as anybody else

relationship is the same as anybody else and and are we getting it right or wrong

and and are we getting it right or wrong and and so

and and so often there can be these knee-jerk

often there can be these knee-jerk reactions from people about oh that oh

reactions from people about oh that oh that doesn't sound good because that's

that doesn't sound good because that's not what i know to be true and

not what i know to be true and and you know

and you know then it becomes you know diversity it

then it becomes you know diversity it becomes sort of um difficult for people

becomes sort of um difficult for people to handle them doesn't it if your

to handle them doesn't it if your experience is different am i then

experience is different am i then am i wrong um and people get really kind

am i wrong um and people get really kind of upset about that and this probably is

of upset about that and this probably is destroying more relationships than we

destroying more relationships than we know this expert this social fake

know this expert this social fake expectation of how it should be going

expectation of how it should be going for you whereas in fact much of what i

for you whereas in fact much of what i read about in your in your book and even

read about in your in your book and even this idea of having more words to

this idea of having more words to describe how you feel treating these

describe how you feel treating these things in a non-binary way but just like

things in a non-binary way but just like reflecting on how how do i feel not has

reflecting on how how do i feel not has he ticked the box of sending me roses

he ticked the box of sending me roses today but how do i feel yeah this seems

today but how do i feel yeah this seems to be a much better way to navigate

to be a much better way to navigate through life yeah yeah absolutely and

through life yeah yeah absolutely and going with um what you're dealing with

going with um what you're dealing with at that point rather than the world says

at that point rather than the world says we should be having dinner tonight and

we should be having dinner tonight and you should be buying me ten roses um

you should be buying me ten roses um therefore we we're getting this really

therefore we we're getting this really wrong if it's not happening and um there

wrong if it's not happening and um there can be all

can be all manner of reasons why that might not be

manner of reasons why that might not be the case at any one point and and that's

the case at any one point and and that's okay isn't it but yeah it's looking at

okay isn't it but yeah it's looking at if i'm not feeling loved

if i'm not feeling loved is it just about because i've set a

is it just about because i've set a standard and i've i've applied some

standard and i've i've applied some standard to this other person that

standard to this other person that they're not fulfilling

they're not fulfilling or um or am i feeling unloved generally

or um or am i feeling unloved generally you know is this one

you know is this one is this the sort of last straw type

is this the sort of last straw type thing that there's a build up of

thing that there's a build up of resentment because i haven't been

resentment because i haven't been expressing my needs and then valentine's

expressing my needs and then valentine's day feels like the valid time to do that

day feels like the valid time to do that because

because everybody else gets roses you know it's

everybody else gets roses you know it's kind of um it's a difficult one and how

kind of um it's a difficult one and how in your thought in your work how often

in your thought in your work how often do you see

do you see that the relationships we have with

that the relationships we have with others are just a reflection of the

others are just a reflection of the relationship we have with ourselves

relationship we have with ourselves yeah i mean huge it can be really

yeah i mean huge it can be really difficult when people for example when

difficult when people for example when people become um depressed

people become um depressed and and their relationship with

and and their relationship with themselves becomes very poor and you

themselves becomes very poor and you know they're talking to themselves in a

know they're talking to themselves in a poor way they believe awful things about

poor way they believe awful things about themselves it can become really

themselves it can become really difficult for them then to

difficult for them then to sustain or manage their relationships in

sustain or manage their relationships in a in a

a in a positive way

positive way um because they don't feel worthy of

um because they don't feel worthy of that relationship for example

that relationship for example i don't i don't know so much about you

i don't i don't know so much about you know people say

know people say don't love anyone else until you love

don't love anyone else until you love yourself and stuff like because again

yourself and stuff like because again it's this kind of standard isn't it of

it's this kind of standard isn't it of like i've got to be so okay with myself

like i've got to be so okay with myself before i'm allowed to

before i'm allowed to have a partner

have a partner life doesn't work like that we all work

life doesn't work like that we all work on it for years right and there are

on it for years right and there are times when it's really pushed to the

times when it's really pushed to the brink and you're tested and or you know

brink and you're tested and or you know your relationship with yourself

your relationship with yourself deteriorates because something's

deteriorates because something's happened and um and that's okay to go

happened and um and that's okay to go through that journey and you can go

through that journey and you can go through it with someone else but yeah i

through it with someone else but yeah i mean if you're struggling with you then

mean if you're struggling with you then then it's likely that you're also going

then it's likely that you're also going to be struggling in your relationship

to be struggling in your relationship which then has a knock-on effect to you

which then has a knock-on effect to you again so it's a sort of a bit of a cycle

again so it's a sort of a bit of a cycle we go through life you know

we go through life you know especially because you're on this you

especially because you're on this you know you're on a you're doing a lot of

know you're on a you're doing a lot of media at the moment because of your book

media at the moment because of your book and you're having to do a lot of

and you're having to do a lot of interviews and one of my guests one day

interviews and one of my guests one day a really profound question in the diary

a really profound question in the diary we'll get all of our guests to write a

we'll get all of our guests to write a question in the diary for their next

question in the diary for their next guest and they wrote a really

guest and they wrote a really interesting question which i always like

interesting question which i always like to ask guests now and and and ask them

to ask guests now and and and ask them to give me the total honesty in the

to give me the total honesty in the answer which is um

answer which is um are you happy

are you happy yes

yes some of the time

some of the time and i would say that because

and i would say that because there's this idea that happiness is

there's this idea that happiness is either there or it's not it's constant

either there or it's not it's constant like some people have it and some people

like some people have it and some people don't

don't it's a feeling like anything else and

it's a feeling like anything else and sometimes i'm really happy sometimes i'm

sometimes i'm really happy sometimes i'm ecstatic other times i feel really sad

ecstatic other times i feel really sad or frightened or stressed

or frightened or stressed and that's okay generally i'm

and that's okay generally i'm i'm happy with the setup of my life and

i'm happy with the setup of my life and positive things are happening and

positive things are happening and all of thank

all of thank god you all of my children are healthy

god you all of my children are healthy and safe and all of those things so

and safe and all of those things so yeah i'm pretty grateful for my lot at

yeah i'm pretty grateful for my lot at the moment

the moment but i wouldn't say you know i've found

but i wouldn't say you know i've found the secret to happiness and then that is

the secret to happiness and then that is a constant and here i go i know life's

a constant and here i go i know life's going to be a roller coaster because

going to be a roller coaster because it's for everybody and there will be

it's for everybody and there will be times when i'm knocked back and i don't

times when i'm knocked back and i don't feel happy

feel happy and i know that i'll have my own back

and i know that i'll have my own back when that time comes

when that time comes okay the question

okay the question okay

okay okay i don't think i understand it

okay i don't think i understand it because they've underlined one of the

because they've underlined one of the words so the word that they've

words so the word that they've underlined i'm gonna emphasize

underlined i'm gonna emphasize okay

okay what would you do differently if you

what would you do differently if you didn't have

didn't have to do anything

um if i didn't have to do anything i'd probably spend more time at the

i'd probably spend more time at the beach that sounds bizarre but i love

beach that sounds bizarre but i love being

being um

um outdoors with the kids i love being at

outdoors with the kids i love being at the beach with them on the coast or in

the beach with them on the coast or in the forest

the forest with the dog and i would probably do

with the dog and i would probably do more of that i think just being outside

more of that i think just being outside and and letting the kids be kids with

and and letting the kids be kids with you know

you know hitting trees with sticks and kicking

hitting trees with sticks and kicking stones and like you know just the fun

stones and like you know just the fun stuff probably probably a bit more of

stuff probably probably a bit more of that what's stopping you doing that now

that what's stopping you doing that now um that they all have to go to school

um that they all have to go to school and

and and we have to go to work and

and we have to go to work and you know they got skills to learn and

you know they got skills to learn and clubs to attend and you know it's the

clubs to attend and you know it's the kind of normal life stuff that you get

kind of normal life stuff that you get busy with which is still just as

busy with which is still just as meaningful but i think you know if there

meaningful but i think you know if there was a week off of

was a week off of school and clubs and stuff like that

school and clubs and stuff like that then that's where we'd go to i think

then that's where we'd go to i think thank you thank you for your time your

thank you thank you for your time your honesty and your brilliance um the book

honesty and your brilliance um the book is as i said it's an incredibly

is as i said it's an incredibly important book not least because of its

important book not least because of its of its uh

of its uh its basis in

its basis in you know

you know more than a decade of knowledge and

more than a decade of knowledge and practice but also because it's so

practice but also because it's so inclusive and it's so easy to read and i

inclusive and it's so easy to read and i know it's going to help a ton of people

know it's going to help a ton of people especially people that don't like or

especially people that don't like or intimidated by the prospect like me of

intimidated by the prospect like me of sitting down and having to read 700

sitting down and having to read 700 pages or whatever in one sitting a book

pages or whatever in one sitting a book that you can nip into and nip out of

that you can nip into and nip out of over time is so

over time is so so holiday worthy and so like travel

so holiday worthy and so like travel worthy which is pretty much where i read

worthy which is pretty much where i read all of my books so thank you for writing

all of my books so thank you for writing such a brilliant book thank you for

such a brilliant book thank you for being such a brilliant person

being such a brilliant person and although i know it's challenging at

and although i know it's challenging at times i would just reiterate to the fact

times i would just reiterate to the fact that you are helping many many many more

that you are helping many many many more people than you'll ever get to know or

people than you'll ever get to know or meet and i think that's um that's a very

meet and i think that's um that's a very important cause that you're serving so

important cause that you're serving so thank you thank you so much and thanks

thank you thank you so much and thanks for having me it's an absolute privilege

for having me it's an absolute privilege to to come and

to to come and talk with you and

talk with you and i can have a list of my own questions

i can have a list of my own questions for you that's for another day but thank

for you that's for another day but thank you thank you

you thank you [Music]

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YouTube Transcript:World Leading Psychologist: How To Detach From Overthinking & Anxiety: Dr Julie Smith | E122

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World Leading Psychologist: How To Detach From Overthinking & Anxiety: Dr Julie Smith | E122