0:00 actually yeah pretty much every pivotal
0:02 like moment in my career was based on
0:04 like some hypothesis that I committed to
0:08 seeing through you know you're going up
0:11 against all these companies spending
0:12 billions of dollars on ads and the
0:15 brands that devote to making original
0:19 content on YouTube which is the largest
0:21 watch platform on the on the planet uh
0:24 will develop for themselves like massive
0:27 brand loyalty from audiences that
0:30 actually choose to watch their
0:34 content I'm Ryan hasimi founder and CEO
0:36 of snowball I built the business at
0:38 Jubilee media grew it to 14 million
0:41 subscribers and 5 billion views and
0:43 you're on behind the brand with Brian
0:44 Elliott everyone welcome to another
0:46 episode of the show Ryan pleasure
0:48 welcome thank you uh I usually ask my
0:50 guest how did you get this
0:53 job
0:55 um
0:56 well uh it took a long time of just
0:59 being embedded in in YouTube land for
1:02 for many many years right when it
1:04 started I was obsessed with it and um
1:07 spent all my free time on YouTube and
1:09 then eventually it turned into a
1:12 full-time career building an actual
1:14 Channel on YouTube um and we were I
1:17 think early days in building a media
1:19 company strictly YouTube focused and the
1:23 learnings of that I think were pivotal
1:27 and actually now launching an agency
1:29 that helps Brands figure out how to do
1:31 YouTube I love it uh we were talking off
1:34 camera that you're from St Louis that's
1:36 right um YouTube It's
1:40 2005 on that Universal
1:43 Pictures
1:44 um $50 million budget you know marketing
1:48 the Studio's biggest titles at the time
1:50 walk in the red carpet with movie stars
1:52 uh this little website comes out and it
1:54 changes the game like overnight you're
1:56 thinking this is a big deal well maybe
1:58 it was 12 months cuz then got acquired
2:01 by Google um where were you in 2005 what
2:05 were you doing I was in uh High School
2:07 MH yeah and uh we uploading so I it took
2:12 me probably about a year and a half well
2:14 so I started uploading after I think it
2:16 was a might have been a Wall Street
2:18 Journal article or some article that
2:20 came out that was saying um YouTubers
2:22 were making six figures um and you know
2:27 that's like nothing right now but um
2:30 that was to to me at the time
2:31 mind-blowing as a high schooler cuz
2:33 that's just where I thought people were
2:35 having fun um and it was after I read
2:38 the article that I started making
2:39 content on YouTube so I actually started
2:40 a channel was called the prize Channel
2:43 and um realized I wasn't like that
2:46 entertaining I didn't know what to do so
2:47 I I created a like a hub where we would
2:50 bring YouTubers together to collaborate
2:52 in this one channel and we'd like do
2:53 giveaways to Their audience um and I was
2:56 the sort of host of that prize Channel
2:58 and that's where I that channel then led
3:01 me down the path to where I am now
3:03 because I got to collaborate with a lot
3:04 of big YouTubers at the time and then
3:06 reconnected with them many years later
3:08 after I went you know to school college
3:11 and got a real job yeah and then circled
3:13 back to YouTube yeah it's so interesting
3:15 you know you talk about that getaway
3:17 giveaway strategy yeah that's basically
3:20 what Mr Beast does that PID true wash
3:23 that's his whole shtick yeah it's a
3:24 whole shtick well and leveling up
3:27 correct how you do it yeah outdoing
3:29 himself every single correct yeah which
3:32 I don't know how he's going to make that
3:33 scale we'll see right I think his Amazon
3:36 special is out this week it is yeah yeah
3:39 it is interesting um and so now I think
3:42 I'm thinking back to like old school
3:44 YouTubers I'm thinking like smos right
3:46 and like Jeff Marbles and like yeah uh
3:49 there was a guy named he called himself
3:52 Sexy Phil s Sexy Phil he he's now well
3:55 Philip def Franco is his oh Phil def
3:57 Franco yeah so that was that was my
3:59 first collab very very early days with
4:02 with him yeah um and then a couple other
4:04 guys this guy named keep the heat and
4:06 keep the heat Alex is who I then
4:09 reconnected with many years later to
4:10 pull me back in to YouTube so so cool so
4:13 you were in front of the camera I was
4:15 yeah and you're were just recording with
4:17 like a SLR or something yeah oh and what
4:21 was it I don't even remember what camera
4:23 it was I think it yeah it was it was um
4:26 I think it was a camcore yeah just
4:27 whatever my parents had yes so well well
4:29 because if we're going to like earmark
4:32 that time period I mean 2006 was iPhone
4:36 1 right I didn't even have an iPhone at
4:38 the time yeah yeah crazy right and a lot
4:41 of things started to sort of cascade it
4:42 was a whole I think shift from digital
4:45 into social yes uh 2007 Twitter launches
4:49 it South by Southwest every goes nuts
4:51 right that was such a big deal I
4:53 remember like this watershed moment when
4:56 like the world was suddenly connected
4:58 Twitter just took off like crazy
5:00 right
5:01 um Facebook was just coming out of the
5:04 colleges just a couple years out maybe
5:06 three years out two years out 2004 05 06
5:10 those are big years for Mark Zuckerberg
5:13 waiting through all his problems trying
5:14 to figure out um man it's back of the
5:18 day good times long yeah a long time ago
5:20 yeah and yet we're so it's like it's
5:22 been forever but it feels like still so
5:24 early in in this you know sort of Tide
5:27 shift that's happening I agree I agree
5:29 it feel like almost like everything and
5:32 nothing has changed right um so how did
5:36 you evolve the plan you you you
5:38 recognize that maybe you're not Phil the
5:40 Franco you're great on camera or quick
5:42 with the words um were you doing all the
5:45 editing too I was yeah yeah yeah so you
5:48 know your self talk just like all of
5:49 usbody um doing this as a oneman band in
5:53 bedroom yes uh how did you evolve the
5:56 planet how did you see what were you
5:58 seeing at the time
6:00 uh I think it was just the level and
6:03 still today why I love YouTube so much
6:05 the level of uh depth of of relationship
6:08 that you have with your audience is just
6:10 un unlike any platform I've seen and the
6:13 fandom the you know ability to actually
6:17 leverage your audience to get them to
6:19 convert in whatever you know way you
6:20 have in mind just seemed unparalleled
6:23 and there's a very sticky audience they
6:25 keep coming back they're very engaged in
6:26 the comment section yeah it it it felt
6:29 like at the time and I don't know well
6:31 we're close there with maybe with Mr
6:33 Beast and folks like him but it felt
6:36 like at the time like these are going to
6:38 be the next you know celebrities um
6:42 that's maybe my first like aha moment
6:44 was just how much people cared about the
6:47 folks that they're watching on YouTube
6:49 yeah I just I didn't see anything else
6:50 like that yeah we should also
6:53 mention uh Marquez mkvd we should have
6:56 mentioned I Justine we should mentioned
6:57 Casey nistad those are the Casey nistad
6:59 years kind of 2008 to that's right to
7:04 2014 like the Heyday yeah he was
7:06 instrument yeah he changed a lot of
7:09 Storytelling like what was possible on
7:11 YouTube and I think he brought in a
7:13 whole yeah I think YouTube owes a lot to
7:16 to Casey actually um he brought in a lot
7:18 of Open the Eyes I think of storytellers
7:22 filmmakers Etc that oh this can actually
7:24 be a PL it's not just for fun and you
7:26 know vlogging or whatever yeah and and
7:28 brand deals too like way he did this
7:30 brand integration you know that iconic
7:32 Nike SPoT that I think he did he tells
7:34 that story I think they gave him 25,000
7:36 bucks yeah and um I don't know it's I
7:39 think it's probably over 30 million
7:40 views at this point so yeah he crushed
7:42 it for for the brands he worked with for
7:44 sure yeah and so where did it take you
7:47 then so you you You' being a pivot at
7:49 some point yeah oh yeah
7:51 um
7:53 so it wasn't yeah it wasn't linear I I
7:56 I at some point gave up on YouTube from
7:59 myself and like okay cool that was like
8:02 a fun experiment and then I went to
8:05 college and studied finance and uh
8:07 economics and then went into um Finance
8:10 full-time as a career yeah so doing
8:13 investment research you know numbers guy
8:15 numbers yeah recommending stocks all
8:17 that stuff for clients and um I actually
8:20 really enjoyed that but
8:21 then I was a little bit I think just
8:25 working in a corporate environment you
8:27 know even though I love the subject I I
8:29 just very quickly learned that I guess
8:32 I'm just wired a little differently cuz
8:33 it just felt Soul crushing even with the
8:36 topic I cared about yeah so and then as
8:39 I was beginning to feel that uh one of
8:42 the YouTubers who I collaborated with in
8:44 high school reached out to me I was like
8:46 oh hey you're in business now awesome um
8:49 there's like hundreds of problems in
8:51 this industry still baby there's massive
8:54 opportunity here are all the problems
8:55 I'm saying here are like all the ways I
8:57 feel like they could be solved but I
8:59 have no no I have no business background
9:00 I don't know how to you know actualize
9:02 any of this like would you want to get
9:04 involved and so um I did I would I would
9:07 Moonlight I would just I'd come home
9:08 from the the investment job and then
9:11 from whatever 5: till midnight he and I
9:14 would would work together and eventually
9:17 that thing we were doing was was making
9:19 enough money for me to quit my my job
9:22 and uh at the time we were trying to
9:25 solve uh Creator collaborations like one
9:28 of the major ways you grew as a Creator
9:31 was just uh finding another Creator and
9:33 sort of cross-pollinating your your
9:35 audiences together and collaborating but
9:37 there wasn't a great way so if you were
9:39 in St Louis for example there wasn't a
9:41 great way actually no way really to be
9:43 like okay who else is in St Lewis that
9:45 makes YouTube videos that I could just
9:48 do a collab with yeah it was very
9:51 difficult to find likeminded creators
9:53 and so we were trying to solve that
9:55 problem um we first created a like
9:58 physical community we would host events
10:00 for YouTubers get sponsors to pay for
10:02 the events and then we you know started
10:04 making uh an app and it was like
10:07 LinkedIn at the time for for exclusively
10:10 for creators so that that pulled me back
10:14 into the world and in in some way what
10:16 was it called Rise N that's what it
10:18 called Rise N yeah you're like behance
10:21 no no nothing like that yeah no it's um
10:23 it's dead now but um it was it was very
10:26 it was very cool um and then while I was
10:29 doing that I got connected to
10:33 Jason Jason uh started Jubilee Jubilee
10:37 media with this vision of like
10:39 creating a mission First Entertainment
10:42 Company this was at the time this is
10:44 when uh was the first Trump election and
10:46 there was just massive division
10:48 happening I mean yeah we were just we
10:50 were just seeing so much
10:53 polarization and um Jason had been doing
10:57 with Jubilee he'd been doing nonprofit
10:59 for a while like trying to use media to
11:01 raise funds for clean water or sex
11:03 trafficking yeah and then the vision be
11:05 became bigger it was like how can we
11:07 affect culture and be the antithesis to
11:10 all this polarization so launch turned
11:14 Jubilee project which was the nonprofit
11:16 into Jubilee media uh for-profit startup
11:20 and right at that time he asked me to
11:22 come you know would you be interested in
11:24 building out this business and so um
11:27 said bye to rise 9 joined him at Jubilee
11:31 it was just like four or five of us uh
11:34 and then yeah came a you know Mass
11:37 roller coaster of this is one of the
11:39 best times of my life but that then set
11:42 off this you know Domino of being really
11:47 in YouTube yeah yeah yeah so weing on
11:50 this you know um you think this is the
11:53 best time or the worst time to jump into
11:55 to become a Creator Creator game um
12:00 I think it's the best time yeah I
12:02 mean what I would say
12:04 is it you know creators oftentimes when
12:08 they start they have they they're two in
12:10 their heads um and they ask themselves
12:13 like oh how do I be like XYZ Creator and
12:16 they end up just sort of copying you
12:19 know uh other creators and not finding
12:22 their own voice what makes them unique
12:24 yeah and I think if you're trying to
12:27 just be like I want to be the the next
12:28 what ever and just kind of copy other
12:30 people's styles that I would say maybe
12:34 not the best time for you there's just a
12:36 thousand people playing the copycat game
12:39 but if you have a distinct voice and you
12:40 have something unique you want to bring
12:43 to YouTube there is always always room
12:47 for that and I would also say like I've
12:49 been pleasantly
12:50 surprised like the amount of niches
12:55 within YouTube that you can be a uh lead
12:59 Creator in you know uh car excavation
13:03 gold mining I mean there's like I my
13:05 mind has just been blown over the years
13:07 by how many creators uh in the different
13:11 crazy niches that I didn't even know
13:13 existed yeah are killing it yeah yeah
13:16 it's true uh the wheels are turning out
13:18 I have so
13:20 many thoughts about what you just said
13:22 there's a lot there um I want to unpack
13:24 it just a little bit so I agree I think
13:28 you know the critics with would say well
13:29 everything's already kind of been done
13:31 sure and then the people who are fearful
13:34 or have that scarcity mindset they're
13:36 thinking oh AI is just going to and then
13:38 fill in the blank right um I feel the
13:40 opposite yeah I feel like you know um
13:44 yes there's a lot of dupes out there
13:46 people are going to create faceless
13:47 avatars that use AI to Parrot their
13:51 favorite we're seeing that with
13:52 thumbnail design even you know at that
13:55 level like people see a thumbnail design
13:57 that works and like all of a sudden
13:58 every
13:59 thumbs look the same so exactly you
14:01 always have to be pivoting and be out in
14:03 front well on that note if I can I would
14:06 say actually what we're seeing for
14:08 example with um clients and even with um
14:11 some creators like I that I Mentor now
14:14 like there's just these cycles that
14:15 happen on YouTube so uh the
14:21 beastify colors and William exaggerated
14:24 faces like that's
14:26 actually beginning to die a bit and
14:29 we're seeing like um creators who have
14:32 extremely minimal yes you know super
14:35 simple concept thumbnails are actually
14:38 now standing out more because it's just
14:41 now different than all the copy copycat
14:44 type stuff so yeah yeah the pendulum
14:46 swings back and forth right exactly um
14:48 just when you thought you had it figured
14:50 out it's like or you know even they
14:52 change the algorithm yeah uh let's talk
14:55 about that for a second have you seen
14:56 that change I mean in the beginning
14:59 you'd have a certain amount of
15:00 subscribers you could Bank on you know
15:03 10% 20% at times of that population
15:06 getting notified when you upload right
15:08 and now you'll be lucky if it's 1%
15:09 that's true that's true it's a drag yeah
15:12 yeah that so I would say that that's
15:14 probably the
15:16 biggest algorithmic change um ever that
15:21 you know from the biggest transition
15:23 that I think a lot of creators uh
15:25 friends of mine you know went through a
15:27 lot of pain exactly right is that if you
15:31 built your subscri early days if you
15:32 built your
15:33 subscribers your videos would just get
15:35 surfed to them because that's you know
15:37 that's why they click subscribe well
15:39 that's what they told us correct yeah
15:41 the point yeah yeah exactly now um I
15:46 will say I'll maybe credit to to YouTube
15:49 is that like after this change not much
15:51 has CH has changed but now YouTube
15:56 prioritizing what is going to get us the
15:59 most watch time on our platform yeah um
16:02 is is is simply saying so if you have
16:06 subscribers it they do actually use your
16:09 subscribers at first as like a testing
16:11 ground right like do your subscribers
16:13 even like this video and they compare it
16:16 you know they're doing a lot of
16:17 comparative uh stuff and if your
16:19 subscribers seem to like your video a
16:21 lot then it will start to spread you
16:23 know but it's it gone to the days where
16:26 it's just yeah you're you're 100,000 sub
16:28 subscribers are all going to be watching
16:30 the video you made it's a now it's a
16:32 small subset of them are tested uh with
16:36 once it get uploads and then if it does
16:39 well it'll proliferate from there yeah
16:42 yeah um when you're saying you know it's
16:45 gone from like overproduced thumbs to
16:47 like under produced I think the name
16:49 that comes to mind do you know Sam silic
16:50 yeah of course oh yeah that's a classic
16:53 bodybuilder like not not even like zero
16:55 effort in his pack in his like thumbnail
16:57 and stuff yeah you know he's got the
16:59 road mic clipped to his hat you know
17:02 it's all dark there's no production he's
17:05 just holding a camera up in his car
17:07 sometimes yeah I my so I would
17:11 say that's an interesting case study for
17:14 me because
17:15 um a lot of people who saw that and even
17:18 like folks in the you know YouTube space
17:20 were like oh this is like that packaging
17:23 is where everything is headed so let's
17:25 do more let's try to do Sam silic style
17:27 right I would say like not so fast I
17:31 guess um you know he developed a sort of
17:34 cult-like following yeah
17:37 where people really wanted to go super
17:40 deep with him and they really like the
17:41 raw authentic I'm not even trying I'm
17:44 just being myself and you know it's
17:47 almost like he's succeeding despite his
17:50 lack of effort on the packaging I
17:52 wouldn't say that it's because of his
17:55 you know minimal packaging um but
17:59 on that same note though we are seeing
18:02 though the more simple in concept the
18:04 less you know vibrant colorful poppy
18:08 thumbnails actually are working a little
18:10 better right now yeah this is maybe a
18:12 good time for me to talk about brand
18:14 this series is called behind the brand
18:15 people come and listen and watch I think
18:18 to learn how to build their brand from
18:20 the experts who are doing it um I've
18:23 asked probably 500 plus people this
18:25 question uh what is a brand and and I'll
18:29 kind of couch that or give some context
18:32 around that I think Sam is true to his
18:35 brand and that's why whatever it ends up
18:38 looking like is why it's being well
18:41 received exactly and so the answer to
18:44 like what should I do on the creative
18:45 side is you know who is your audience
18:48 yeah who are youh so uh so how do you
18:51 because I want to understand too like
18:53 how you think about brand but I also
18:55 think of you know how you maybe position
18:57 the snowball brand yeah yeah that's a
18:59 great Point um I think what you said is
19:02 100% accurate
19:04 uh
19:06 brand is to me
19:09 basically the outward expression of like
19:12 what you are trying to do as a company
19:15 you know it sometimes you could say it's
19:17 like the embodiment of your mission or
19:21 Vision but you know I think where it
19:23 gets a little um muddied is is sort of
19:27 when you add the the uh traditional sort
19:31 of branding element to it like brand
19:33 strategy
19:35 and that I think is you know like how
19:38 our um what's our Aesthetics our colors
19:40 or Vibes all that stuff that to me
19:42 doesn't matter as much I think it's
19:44 um when we look at what often times
19:47 people are drawn to especially on
19:49 YouTube for example it truly is like
19:52 authenticity that's like the name of the
19:54 game and so for me uh good branding is
19:59 is um pushing past all the
20:03 administrative and like you know
20:06 basically the BS and just asking
20:08 yourself like how can we
20:10 fully embody what we stand for as a as a
20:14 company in everything we do um that's
20:17 that to me is is is branding because it
20:19 it shows up in everything you put out if
20:21 that if if you actually try to to live
20:23 by that yeah I think that tracks with
20:26 what I've heard too I had my two cents
20:28 you know I think back uh you know
20:30 literal like in you know Wild West you
20:33 know they're putting a brand on a horse
20:35 you know it's it's the RL ranch or you
20:38 know whatever yeah yeah you know that is
20:40 a literal brand you can identify that
20:42 that is your property but that's not
20:44 what we're talking about here cuz a
20:45 brand is not your logo It's Not Your
20:47 Mark it's it's not even your color
20:49 palette your right your legal Bible but
20:52 what you can and cannot say all that
20:54 stuff I think is window dressing exactly
20:56 it's important yeah it's important uh
20:59 because it helps communicate what you're
21:00 trying to do but you know Above All Else
21:02 a brand is distinct M and a brand is
21:06 something I think people are willing to
21:08 stand in line for right pay a premium
21:10 for that's right so it's like you know I
21:12 go to Costco and there's like a bottle
21:14 of ibuprofen you know the size of like a
21:17 pickle barrel uh and it's like $8 right
21:20 or I can buy the Advil right next to it
21:22 for $500 I don't care right about the
21:25 generic brand right I don't need to buy
21:27 the name brand Advil because it's the
21:29 same in medicine so I buy the notand
21:31 because it does the same thing right and
21:33 so I'm not willing to pay a premium for
21:35 Advil because it doesn't matter right
21:36 it's indistinguishable yeah I agree I I
21:39 think the window dressing as you as as
21:41 you called it is unfortunately where it
21:44 seems like most companies get lost in
21:46 The Branding like like um it's almost
21:49 like they use the window dressing as
21:51 just kind of checking boxes and and and
21:54 they're not really um they're not really
21:57 asking ourselves like how do we
21:59 maximize the the presence of our like
22:03 Mission Vision like why people even like
22:05 us in the first place how do we maximize
22:07 that it it all gets watered down by the
22:11 like what you're saying like oh we can't
22:13 say that or you know just let's tweak
22:15 tweak this put this there it's just I
22:18 think it just is a is a you know not not
22:20 a good exercise yeah well it is in some
22:23 way all part of it so another thing I
22:24 was thinking is that a brand is a short
22:26 hand for what you stand for it's what
22:28 people
22:29 say about you when you're not in the
22:30 room yeah and so therefore you know you
22:33 have these best laid plans you you know
22:35 you create this brand you put it out
22:37 there in the world and then uh your part
22:40 is done to a certain degree right you
22:42 got to walk the talk right do what you
22:44 promise to do but then people have their
22:46 own interpretation I'm thinking I saw
22:48 this spot on the uh is it AES you know
22:52 um that high luxury bag brand right and
22:57 they have these bags that are like over
23:00 $100,000 in the piece right but uh you
23:04 know price is a story but also uh that
23:07 exclusivity the fact that no you cannot
23:10 have it you're right is also part of
23:12 their
23:12 brand uh this is rare this is special
23:16 this is handmade to the nth degree and
23:19 and that all goes into the brand
23:21 exercise too no no we're not making a
23:24 you know 100,00 of these this is like
23:26 the you know the Ferrari there's it's
23:28 numbered right limited and that's part
23:30 of the brand too so agreed you know you
23:32 can have lots of different brand
23:33 strategy yep if you're uh you know
23:36 someone like Walmart you're the lowcost
23:38 producer right if you're someone like
23:40 AES you know you can expect to wait and
23:43 not get what you want and then
23:44 eventually pay way more if expected
23:47 right and that's and it it it's funny
23:50 because it often it's a way to express
23:53 our own identity oh yeah by what we
23:55 choose to purchase yeah what we choose
23:57 to prioritize a purchase cuz if I'm
23:59 going to buy a bag like that what does
24:02 that say about me right I'm a person of
24:04 means I'm not in a hurry right I care
24:07 about hand
24:08 craftsmanship I care about social proof
24:10 or status you know yeah exactly so
24:13 branding is so important I agree and
24:15 you're in the strategy business so let's
24:17 break down what strategy is um because I
24:21 think strategy is your thesis I don't
24:25 think it's your goal or the tactics
24:29 I think it's more of your I think it's
24:31 more of a uh an Essence your thesis of
24:34 your how to go about something but let
24:36 me hear it from you yeah
24:39 um uh there's I forgot the guy's name um
24:42 but there's a book that I read that
24:44 informed I think my opinion on this is
24:46 called uh play to win and um it's
24:49 essentially what you said which is the
24:51 strategy is essentially um to use your
24:55 word an actual thesis a hypothesis
24:59 on how you're going to achieve what you
25:02 you know set out to achieve um it's not
25:05 the the planning it's not the you know
25:07 um administrative like oh we need to
25:10 hire 20 people we need to you know th th
25:12 that all those things are sort of a
25:14 byproduct of your your strategy yeah and
25:17 so I to to your point I do think a lot
25:20 of people oftentimes don't have a well
25:24 thought out or robust enough strategy
25:27 yeah and they just kind of move into the
25:30 to the sort of planning oftentimes like
25:32 this they called strategic planning
25:34 which I think is a a misnomer um you got
25:37 to have a very clear strategy your your
25:39 plan on how you actually um you know set
25:42 out to win what you're after yeah and
25:45 then comes all the you know like what do
25:48 we need to execute on I agree I think
25:49 people
25:50 conflate uh tactics and goals mhm they
25:54 also conflate strategy with goals or
25:57 strategy with tactics
25:58 this is you know what we're going to do
26:00 no no no no like that's not strategy
26:02 those are tactics right uh I like
26:05 biographies uh was reading George
26:07 Washington's biography lately it's is
26:09 super interesting wow uh just as an
26:11 aside so George Washington's strategy is
26:14 fascinating uh he you know I I knew
26:17 nothing really about the Revolutionary
26:20 War even his thing but like and I could
26:22 talk for three hours on this but um it
26:26 seems like George Washington's strategy
26:29 he
26:30 knew he knew the cards he had to play
26:34 and they weren't good cards it's this
26:37 rack tag you know American Army against
26:40 the most significant military force in
26:44 the world of the time especially if it's
26:46 the Navy the British Navy like
26:48 unbelievable power you know and then
26:51 their dominance across the world but you
26:53 know so you think about this kind of
26:56 David and GLI story right but George
26:58 Washington knew what he was up against
27:00 yeah so what was his strategy fight him
27:02 head on no fight you know uh lining up
27:06 the way that they did no he needed to go
27:09 Rogue he needed to go gorilla uh and in
27:12 fact George
27:13 Washington his greatest I think
27:15 strengths were in these strategies to
27:18 like do little attacks and then Retreat
27:20 so he would like go and engage and then
27:23 he would run away that's funny and
27:25 Escape because he didn't have the means
27:27 sure not not enough ammo you know the
27:30 people were starving they were wearing
27:32 like their you know cloth around their
27:34 feet frozen to death and then you know
27:37 that um famous picture he's Crossing the
27:39 Delaware too right again that's a
27:41 strategy about trying to catch the enemy
27:44 off guard yeah freezing cold fog
27:47 everywhere right tumultuous Waters I
27:51 mean yeah the strategy is so important
27:54 and one of my mentors Seth Goden said
27:56 something that stuck with me he said
27:59 you know it doesn't matter how fast
28:00 you're going if you're going in the
28:02 wrong direction there no good right so
28:05 like strategy understanding you know how
28:07 you're going to go about it that thesis
28:09 is so important and often will dictate
28:12 the outcome right I agree have you seen
28:15 that then in your own path I think so I
28:17 mean I even just in launching snowball I
28:22 think it was entirely launched on a on a
28:26 thesis um
28:28 and and had no idea what the tactics
28:30 were going to be um and to
28:35 me actually yeah pretty much every
28:37 pivotal like moment in my career was
28:39 based on like some hypothesis that I
28:43 committed to seeing through and
28:46 [Music]
28:48 um I'll say for snowball for example you
28:51 know we in in this world of like
28:55 complicated marketing you know it's like
28:58 to borrow from the George Washington
29:00 example um you know you're going up
29:02 against all these companies spending
29:04 billions of dollars on ads and um you
29:08 know think about all the different you
29:09 know Billboards campaigns TV
29:12 spots my hypothesis uh was that the
29:16 brands that devote to making original
29:21 content on YouTube which is the largest
29:23 watch platform on the on the planet uh
29:26 will develop for themselves like massive
29:29 brand loyalty from audiences that
29:32 actually choose to watch their content
29:34 not just like you know ads sprayed in
29:36 front of them right um and so now I'm on
29:39 this you know I don't know how however
29:40 long it's going to take but I'm on this
29:42 mission to sort of uh see that through
29:45 and and play that out yeah so how are
29:47 you helping them be their authentic self
29:49 to be true to their brand yeah you know
29:51 because you're right uh every single
29:53 successful
29:55 YouTuber has their own brand personal
29:58 brand yeah you know we mentioned Phil de
30:01 Franco you know I know what Phil's brand
30:03 is you know it's uh that form of news
30:07 yeah uh non-traditional news story um
30:11 with a lot of wit a lot of wit yeah um
30:14 Sam so back to Sam Sam I
30:17 think I think um I think strategy
30:21 requires a ton of
30:23 empathy and when I use the word empathy
30:25 like a firm understanding of
30:29 who you're dealing with at any given
30:31 time yeah so it could be your audience
30:33 you know if you have personas or in the
30:35 case of George Washington he
30:37 knew his team yeah not great yeah up
30:41 against a formidable enemy and so he had
30:45 his strategy planned accordingly right
30:47 and so I think you know back to Sam Sam
30:51 was like [ __ ] it man uh I'm bodybuilding
30:54 you guys want to come along with me I'm
30:55 G show you how I'm doing it right and
30:58 it's not uh you don't need the masses
31:02 for that right you just need the right
31:04 number of people comp care that's true
31:06 happens to be a lot but you know MVP is
31:09 this name This Acronym that's thrown
31:11 around in startup it's it's also kind of
31:13 like minimum viable audience sure like
31:15 that's true who should you be focused on
31:17 who do you care about true how are you
31:19 helping these creators do that yeah so
31:22 from a the brand perspective as much as
31:25 I you know don't love getting getting
31:28 stuck in window dressing what we
31:31 obviously our starting point for a lot
31:32 of them is to understand what they
31:34 believe their brand to be yeah so we're
31:36 not we're oftentimes not like dictating
31:39 their brand by any means it's it's a
31:41 full understanding of what they um have
31:44 come to realize about their brand today
31:47 from like customer personas to why
31:49 people care about their brand and um we
31:52 always start things off with like a two
31:54 three hour Deep dive and just trying to
31:56 understand everything about their brand
31:58 but then to your point on like minimum
32:00 viable
32:02 audience what our creative team then
32:04 does is create a a format sort of road
32:09 map of Concepts types of videos that we
32:13 feel can bring that whatever we just
32:16 learn from that brand what makes their
32:18 brand important brings that to life in
32:20 an interesting entertaining way that
32:22 people would actually want to watch and
32:24 we won't know like we we're oftentimes
32:28 um pivoting along the way right we make
32:31 content that the brand is excited about
32:33 that we're excited about but then based
32:35 on what we learn we're constantly
32:37 evolving over time yeah can we do like a
32:40 little uh live case study there give me
32:43 your feedback we'll see how this goes
32:44 yeah so let's go back to Hermes okay
32:47 um we know who they are we know what
32:50 they stand for yeah we know about know
32:51 how much a burka bag costs um what could
32:55 they be doing on YouTube
32:58 so what's the strategy there's a huge
33:01 Niche
33:03 for um so as actually subreddit I found
33:07 uh I don't know seven eight years ago
33:10 but it's it's blown up um it's it's it's
33:13 called Artisan videos is a massive Niche
33:15 for artisanal like craftsmanship like
33:17 how it's made MH yeah and you know one
33:21 of the for example uh a a brand that
33:27 that there was a spot an episode of a
33:29 video I think uh Singapore Airlines did
33:32 which was like how Singapore Airlines
33:36 makes I think I don't remember the
33:38 numbers but like 200,000 meals for their
33:42 first class A Day right yeah and you're
33:46 you know for any person that's
33:48 interesting right you're like oh how
33:50 yeah that is a challenge how do they do
33:51 that and then they walk you through the
33:53 process and obviously it's premium it
33:56 looks you know the food that they're
33:57 showing how they develop the menu and
33:59 how much care they put into it and um
34:02 you're you're in it just for the How
34:03 It's Made thing but along the way you're
34:05 you're observing how much care they put
34:07 into it yeah and similarly with Hermes
34:09 like there's a whole I think there's an
34:13 entire world around their um their
34:15 design process right like how these
34:19 $100,000 bags are actually designed from
34:22 the to the manufacturing process you
34:24 talk about the handcrafted to the nth
34:26 degree like people want to see that and
34:29 there is really interest like my
34:30 hesitation is typically Brands uh make
34:34 it too commercial like it almost feels
34:36 like you're watching a commercial right
34:38 but if they can um have sort of uh take
34:42 a much more authentic approach more
34:44 native to how I think YouTube content is
34:47 I I think there's entire like whole set
34:49 of series for a brand like arz to
34:52 showcase the amazing amount of work
34:54 going into their products but also then
34:56 the takeaway when people watch it are
34:58 like that is worth $100,000 yeah like so
35:01 it's you know pulling them into to your
35:04 world and getting people even more
35:06 excited about how these bags are put
35:09 together and made yeah do you think
35:11 about um like personas and like the
35:14 target audience you do targeting yeah we
35:16 do yeah I mean often times they so the
35:20 brand will present us their their
35:22 personas usually like they' often times
35:24 have done like a ton of Consulting work
35:25 and you know they they they have
35:27 personas and they walk us through that
35:30 and then what we do is we kind of have
35:31 an exercise internally um we call it
35:35 sort of The Starving crowd exercise and
35:38 um it's it's based off of this guy named
35:40 Gary Halpert who um just I don't know if
35:43 this actually happened but the story
35:45 goes he was giving a lecture at a
35:46 university and was asking his
35:49 students um you we're going to open up
35:51 competing hamburger stands and I'll give
35:53 you guys whatever Advantage you want so
35:56 what do you want and people will be like
35:57 I want the best best quality ingredients
35:58 or cheapest you know source for um the
36:02 meat or whatever it is and he's like
36:04 cool I'll give you all that but I'm
36:05 still going to kill you guys because I
36:08 only want one thing and that's that my
36:09 audience is starving because I can sell
36:11 them anything um and that always stuck
36:14 with me and so usually the last exercise
36:16 we do with a brand is given all that
36:19 you've given us about your brand and
36:20 your your mission your vision your
36:22 personas ultimately like how can we
36:24 distill that down uh from a Content
36:27 perspective for the the set of people
36:32 who would be starving for the content
36:36 that you would be making yeah like that
36:37 they would just you know it's it
36:39 scratches a major itch that they have CU
36:42 that'll help you that'll help you
36:44 attract your initial audience a lot
36:46 easier it knows it sort of sets a path
36:50 so you're not making content aimlessly
36:52 as well right um and then over time that
36:55 like what you learn is sort of shapes
36:57 and Evol olves that but uh that's
37:00 generally where we start is with a
37:01 thesis around who your starving crowd is
37:04 and how do we make content that like
37:06 Wows them yeah yeah I think about that
37:09 young kid he's probably 10 or 11 by now
37:13 uh the kid who unwraps all the toys oh
37:16 is that Ryan Ry Ryan's World toy world
37:18 or whatever yeah yeah yeah yeah um you
37:22 know you look at that kind of video or
37:24 you look at um this your Singapore
37:26 Airline example so who do you think
37:28 that's for I have my idea who that's
37:31 aimed at uh I mean in a in a sense it
37:37 could it's watchable by anyone but
37:38 that's not the point right it's not it's
37:40 a it's aimed at certain people so who do
37:42 you think that that's AED at sing I
37:44 think I think the goal of that piece
37:47 whether this was intentional or not
37:50 is if you because a choice of an airline
37:54 like it sometimes feels like a commodity
37:56 right it's like who 100% yeah it's like
37:59 well I you know I'm just pick the
38:00 cheapest flight or whatever it is right
38:02 but and I think that's the opposite of
38:03 being a brand m is you become this logo
38:06 or quantity exactly there's no meaning
38:08 yeah exactly I mean even for me when I
38:11 think about how I purchase um there's
38:14 really only one like for me it's Delta
38:17 Airlines like if I can get a Delta
38:18 flight I'm going to prioritize that or
38:21 Jet Blue as an example um why is that uh
38:25 just because I've had really good
38:26 experiences it feels uh my flight
38:29 experiences have been great with them
38:31 yeah I like you know the professionalism
38:33 of their staff and um JetBlue often has
38:36 like modern and like their their planes
38:38 are equipped with everything I need um
38:41 and for Singapore Airlines I think when
38:43 you watch that
38:44 video what you want what you want your
38:47 consumer to be doing when they choose an
38:49 airline to purchase from is I I think
38:51 you want them to be thinking from an
38:54 experiential perspective as opposed to
38:56 just okay that one has the cheapest
38:59 price um and and you watch you you watch
39:02 from beginning to the the food actually
39:05 being
39:06 served you then have a significantly
39:09 greater appreciation for all the work
39:13 and sort of the bar for Quality that
39:15 Singapore Airlines puts in to actually
39:18 bring you that you know that food their
39:20 craft essentially yeah and so if it can
39:23 nudge someone in in that final decision-
39:26 making where it's like
39:28 sing you know they see like how can I
39:31 make my trip even better or uh I think
39:33 this would be a significantly better
39:35 14-hour flight yes I'll pay a little bit
39:38 more but I get that Singapore Airlines
39:40 experience like that's what that video
39:41 does it puts the buyer in that frame of
39:44 mind removing them from commodity status
39:47 a bit and into the experiential feeling
39:50 and brand and like you know quality that
39:53 that I think they want people to think
39:55 yeah yeah I I just keep going back I
39:57 mean I think that's a strategy and I
39:58 think I keep going back to empathy
40:02 because uh and I'm just guessing because
40:04 I don't know yeah Singapore Airlines I'm
40:07 guessing they take a lot of long flights
40:09 oh yeah right and so if you have your
40:11 you have sit in a plane for a long time
40:13 yeah one of the major things is comfort
40:16 food you know like just being hydrated
40:19 nutrition exactly having a good
40:21 experience um and traditionally airplane
40:24 food is [ __ ] right so
40:27 uh it sounds like what they're saying
40:29 without saying it in this show in tell
40:31 is like hey we know you're going to be
40:33 on plane for a long time right we know
40:35 the food is usually terrible y ours is
40:37 not right we're going to have a great
40:39 experience our um play attendant are
40:42 well dressed Y super polite you're going
40:44 to get one of those warm towels and then
40:46 you're going to have this amazing meal
40:48 and let us show how show how you would
40:51 uh it's made yeah that's see to me like
40:54 you know when when you say that the the
40:56 feeling that comes to my mind is for
40:58 Singapore Airlines what they're saying
41:00 is your vacation does not start when you
41:02 arrive to your to your location it
41:04 starts when you get on our plane yeah
41:05 like you actually get you enjoy that
41:09 that whatever 12-hour flight from some
41:11 departure to to land yeah and you know
41:15 especially if it's a long-distance
41:16 flight like those those often
41:19 are uh it can be 10 20% of your entire
41:22 vacation time yeah right so why not have
41:24 a really great experience getting to
41:26 your location yeah and I think that's
41:29 that's where um people with personal
41:31 Brands and the brands themselves really
41:33 need to live in that space you think
41:35 about a company like uber you know yes
41:37 they maybe trying to replace taxes but
41:39 it wasn't about getting from A to B it
41:42 was about convenience or like having
41:44 control over when and where you picked
41:46 up your car so in the same sense um
41:49 Singapore Airlines is uh they understand
41:52 their customer y the problem they've got
41:54 to to solve again you know back to your
41:56 example about I just want to find this
41:58 person who's starving right that's their
41:59 problem to solve they're hungry we have
42:01 no food we're going to fill fill that
42:03 whole yeah literally um and uh yeah
42:08 so strategy about empathy I agree yeah
42:13 um okay so snowball love the name what
42:15 is the snowball
42:17 brand still still a work in progress um
42:20 because we are like about seven eight
42:23 months old now um but the idea behind
42:27 snowball as a brand
42:30 is you know I think I'm just tired
42:32 especially my my you know I have I I
42:35 love Brands I I have um a lot of
42:38 favorite Brands and I go and look at
42:41 their their social content and it's
42:44 usually awful right um and and it kind
42:46 of bothers me um like they they're
42:48 Innovative Brands they're making
42:50 incredible um products
42:53 and you know nothing they're doing on on
42:56 social
42:58 matches how amazing I feel about their
43:00 brand let's talk them out in a
43:02 constructive way say we love your brand
43:04 but you're deing it up on social and
43:07 then maybe let's offer some suggestions
43:08 so toss out a couple that you think sure
43:11 I mean um someone I I I pitched uh the
43:15 other day or just talk I have like a
43:18 interview that we're trying to do with
43:19 him um uh whoop the this the fitness
43:23 band whoop so they I know will on it
43:26 Will's been on this has he amazing so I
43:28 I sent him and his chief of staff like a
43:32 proposal um like just offering value
43:35 only like look I love your brand um and
43:39 you guys are Innovative you have a long
43:42 life ahead of you but your content is is
43:45 is bad and you you're they're beginning
43:47 to invest in it more and so I gave them
43:51 uh a lot of thought starters on where
43:53 they can start with the content um they
43:55 have Cristiano Ronaldo and yeah they
43:57 have access to bun of homes and all
44:00 these guys yeah so I mean and and and
44:02 yet when you look at their their their
44:04 content so they have a really great
44:06 podcast with Will and and athletes yeah
44:08 but even then they're they're
44:10 undermining its success potential by not
44:13 putting enough effort into uh the
44:16 packaging like the thumbnail and title
44:17 is so critical on YouTube and I don't I
44:20 don't think they're doing a good job
44:21 with it um and so I gave them
44:23 suggestions on that as well but um for
44:26 them their their main the way they could
44:30 improve significantly is in the formats
44:32 like the what they actually make could
44:34 be significantly better um and I'm happy
44:37 to get into what I what I pitch them but
44:40 um well maybe not the pitch but like so
44:42 by formats you talking about like
44:44 vertical horizontal you're talking about
44:46 platform specific no mo mostly um like
44:50 maybe what we would call shows or you
44:52 know what series of content you should
44:54 make yeah
44:55 um creating series that actually embody
44:59 the uniqueness of their product but also
45:02 are fascinating to watch like my the
45:05 entire goal of snowball is is to help
45:10 awesome Brands make content people
45:13 actually want to watch like they choose
45:15 to watch so helping them pivot from you
45:19 know Uninvited interruptor right with
45:22 ads right to a Preferred Choice in
45:26 content yeah this is an advertorial for
45:28 whoop I've seen this a thousand times
45:30 they just want me to buy the the thing
45:32 yeah I mean people like those have their
45:34 places right but people are a little bit
45:37 tired of being sold too right and I the
45:39 the thesis that snowball is built on and
45:42 we actually launching a partnership a
45:44 research partnership with USC to to
45:46 measure some of this
45:47 but um if people actually seek out your
45:51 content and and choose to watch it and
45:53 it's entertaining to watch and you've
45:55 won their respect from a Content
45:58 perspective that's going to have massive
46:01 um I think brand lift brand Affinity
46:04 recognition way more than a cool I don't
46:07 know TV ad or Instagram ad or whatever
46:09 it is yeah um and so that's kind
46:12 of our brand is like the embodiment of
46:16 that and snowball is essentially you
46:18 know the Snowball Effect right we think
46:21 over time you play the long game this is
46:23 going to have massive it becomes a brand
46:25 moat for you mhm um everyone else is
46:29 doing whatever you're trying to do in
46:31 marketing right now very few people are
46:34 are trying to make really great organic
46:36 content very very few Brands uh and so I
46:39 I think it's the next 10 years of
46:41 differentiation for Brands is is this
46:44 yeah now that you mentioned it there was
46:46 an OG in the space and there's still the
46:49 OG but there's not many others you're
46:51 right and that's Red Bull yeah oh yeah
46:53 Red Bull is my wife works for Red Bull
46:56 okay yeah I mean they've been amazing
46:58 they've been the leader they get
47:00 it from like the very beginning yeah
47:05 it's it's it's it's funny because um
47:08 there's no product in that yeah I know I
47:09 know it's like
47:11 the you know they they most of their
47:15 investment when you look at like
47:16 Personnel and operations and all that
47:18 stuff it's it's it's mostly in the
47:21 manufacturing of the attention not not
47:24 you know like in fact I think they have
47:26 a lot of partner ship in the actual
47:28 producing of their of their be surprised
47:30 yeah but all of their attention goes
47:33 into the embodiment of the Red Bull you
47:36 know spirit in in in content and um I
47:40 think sometime yeah Red Bull is is is
47:42 tough because a lot of Brands look at
47:44 Red Bull and they're like well we're
47:45 just we're just not that like that's you
47:48 know we're not energy and caffeine and
47:49 you know we can't do that and I think I
47:52 think that's
47:54 unfortunately you know if if a brand
47:56 wants to put on do events or whatever
47:59 they're not going to look at Disneyland
48:00 and be like oh we can't we can't compete
48:02 with that it's just you're not trying to
48:04 do what Red Bull does what what Red Bull
48:06 does really really well is make content
48:09 that's true to their brand so the
48:10 question is just like what is a what is
48:12 great content that's true to your brand
48:14 it will look very different than what
48:15 Red Bull is doing you don't have to jump
48:17 off whatever they're doing you know deep
48:19 dive from space yeah to your point you
48:21 can you can't copy the strategy yeah
48:24 because that strategy can work for as
48:27 correct or for Mr Beast or for others
48:30 the other brand that comes in mind
48:31 that's doing it well is yeti uh yeah I
48:34 hear that one a lot like just super like
48:36 very authentic to the brand agreed I
48:38 agree yeah very I I'm trying to
48:41 find like because other when I work when
48:45 we're sort of talking to Brands and and
48:47 and closing deals with them often a
48:50 question I ask is like well what other
48:53 brands are are doing this well like it's
48:55 almost like they're looking for proof
48:57 that it can work right um and it the
49:00 list is very small it's very small um
49:03 yeah for us then that's big oper yeah
49:05 yeah exactly there will be I mean and
49:07 there are as we're talking to some of
49:08 them there will be brands that I
49:10 think want to be different and want to
49:13 sort of take um a leap and innovate with
49:17 with marketing with
49:18 branding and I think at my my gut is in
49:22 the next one to two years there will be
49:24 a sort of avalanche of
49:28 you know I can't call them follower
49:30 Brands but as they finally see ah this
49:33 is oh that's that's really cool um
49:37 there's just going to be a Title Wave of
49:39 Brands finally seeking to make good
49:41 organic content yeah I mean it's it's
49:44 speculating but I would say I have a
49:46 feeling I know why they are so stuck in
49:50 that rut L to hear yeah uh well lots of
49:53 different reasons
49:54 one the leaders ship is old school true
49:58 and they haven't done it before mhm
50:00 another reason is uh man it's sort of
50:05 like this crack Edition uh he uh
50:10 or a crack habit of paid media right
50:14 because you know if I if I know that my
50:16 row as is going to be three four seven
50:19 that's true well heck Ryan you know I
50:21 give you a dollar I get $3 back right
50:24 I'm going to do that all day long washer
50:26 and repeat and um that's true it's like
50:29 this addiction because it's measurable
50:32 whereas if you create this
50:34 series it's um it's more nebulous it's
50:37 you're building a brand you're not doing
50:39 advertising direct marketing that's
50:40 right that's right it this oftentimes
50:43 falls into you know if you look at like
50:46 marketing budgets and you have just sort
50:48 traditional marketing media dollars this
50:51 often is put in the sort of branding you
50:54 know category where it's um
50:57 harder to measure Roi yeah it's still in
50:59 their cost center though so they're
51:01 thinking well I'm G there's a cost
51:03 output you know where's the input it's
51:05 like you do a trade show okay the booth
51:07 cost
51:08 $220,000 you know we write you know uh
51:11 $30,000 worth of orders okay the the ROI
51:15 was 10K that's right um but that's not
51:18 how this works yeah so one one like one
51:22 of our clients is um atfs they're a um
51:26 large like SAS uh SEO tool
51:31 and I I really like how their mindset is
51:34 very forward thinking you would think
51:36 like what what does a what does a SAS
51:39 like technical B2B SAS company deserve
51:42 being on YouTube for like how do they
51:43 make boring you was very boring yeah um
51:46 tell me how to work in Abacus yeah yeah
51:48 it's it it does you just it's not a
51:50 natural fit and yet you know over the
51:53 past few months we we've evolved them
51:56 into storytellers on YouTube uh where
52:00 actually the point of the content it's
52:02 it's a little bit more uh wide appeal so
52:07 they're they're no longer looking to to
52:09 Target just straight technical SEO
52:12 people like folks in that space already
52:14 know about ATS sure their their whole
52:17 initiative now is how do we actually get
52:19 more people just open their eyes to what
52:22 SEO even is and that it's actually not
52:24 as complicated as to think and it can
52:25 have massive impact all that and so
52:28 we're shifting them more into
52:30 storytelling uh that can capture a wider
52:33 audience and in that storytelling it um
52:37 becomes sort of painfully obvious how
52:40 impactful SEO can be and it's working
52:43 quite well and what they do which I
52:46 think um is easier because they're sass
52:48 but they in their sign up flows they
52:50 just ask basically you know how did you
52:52 hear about us and and they see a pretty
52:55 interesting increase of number of times
52:58 people are clicking YouTube and so I
53:00 think there are ways to measure it and
53:02 in fact YouTube in the long run actually
53:05 can be extremely powerful from a
53:07 conversion perspective you have to you
53:09 have to earn the trust a little bit
53:10 first you don't go hard there but in the
53:13 long run it can actually be one of the
53:14 highest converting uh you know taking
53:17 your audience and having them convert to
53:19 your product it's I I believe it's
53:21 actually maybe you know one of the
53:23 highest Roi things you could do oh yeah
53:26 pretty to the choir I mean um direct
53:28 advertising and direct marketing has its
53:30 place you know uh when it's back to
53:33 school time and old Old Navy advertises
53:35 and my kid needs jeans yes exactly hey
53:37 I'm I'm in you know I'm right there I
53:39 need that so thanks for reminding me
53:41 with dinnerbell and oh there's a buy one
53:43 get one or a 30% off for limited time
53:47 great and I go get it problem is with
53:49 advertising it's like a shotgun blast
53:52 yes uh not everyone's ready to buy a new
53:55 pair of jeans for back to school school
53:56 right so a lot of that gets wasted yep
54:00 um but what you're saying is a brand
54:02 building is building trust it's it's
54:04 that people will wait in line around the
54:06 corner I remember like when the Supreme
54:08 store opened y was it five years ago
54:11 when that was a thing right uh man
54:14 snaked around the corner merchandise is
54:16 gone it's gone right and you know you
54:19 felt lucky that you got it that's right
54:22 um I'm hearing rumors that YouTube is
54:25 testing
54:27 taking away uh views and likes and all
54:30 that are you hearing the same thing
54:33 um I I mean I've heard like over the
54:35 past few years I've I've heard that a
54:38 few times I don't know if that's
54:40 actually going to happen um I feel like
54:43 we could get there and here's why um I
54:47 feel like YouTube isn't competing with
54:50 Tik Tok even though you might say oh you
54:52 know YouTube shorts that's an answer to
54:54 Tik Tok eating their lunch on the short
54:56 form
54:57 or um you know what's another you know
55:00 uh Instagram you know you've got the
55:02 community tab blah blah blah I don't
55:04 think they're competing with other
55:05 social networks I think YouTube is now
55:07 competing with television broadcast for
55:10 sure and so if you take away the views
55:13 and you take away the likes basically
55:15 it's all these signals that other people
55:17 like it which would persuade you even if
55:20 you weren't interested in that content
55:22 to watch it oh everyone else has seen it
55:24 maybe I should see it too then it's just
55:26 a
55:27 meritocracy uh you're not building an
55:29 audience you're attracting an audience
55:31 and you only get to keep them if you
55:33 earn their attention and
55:35 therefore YouTube becomes more like
55:37 Netflix that way y that doesn't show any
55:40 of their metrics either right if it if
55:41 you like the show it needs to be damn
55:44 good y right yeah uh it's very possible
55:48 very possible and Spotify is kind of
55:50 doing the same thing so they just
55:51 announced their creator fund and and
55:53 they're doubling down on video it's very
55:55 interesting I feel
55:57 like well we do know is happening like I
56:00 I haven't heard movement on on this
56:02 removing of views but what we have seen
56:05 happening is uh a a shift
56:09 in you know
56:11 algorithmically presenting smaller and
56:14 newer and smaller channels much more
56:16 frequently right so that is happening
56:18 right now uh if you search for
56:20 something um you know two two three
56:23 years ago you would largely see
56:26 the more popular you know stuff that
56:29 pissed me off yeah yeah it's hard to
56:31 break through but now it's there is a a
56:35 pretty noticeable increase in the amount
56:37 of search results or just um if you're
56:40 in a category of content that you're
56:42 going to get hit uh in a way that you've
56:44 not before with like brand new channels
56:47 um and so that could be a step in the
56:49 direction you're talking about yeah but
56:51 I I I do agree that that's actually a
56:53 complaint a lot of small art creators
56:55 have is
56:56 like I if it's if you have to constantly
57:00 compete with everyone who already has a
57:03 massive audience like do we have any
57:05 chance starting out I think YouTube's
57:07 trying to answer for that a little bit
57:08 more yeah I I like that direction I like
57:11 I do too the Netflix model of because
57:13 you don't know who the next amazing
57:14 Creator is right like give them a chance
57:15 right yeah it's not just that but it's
57:17 like um good content is not toine by how
57:20 many views it has well could be the
57:22 opposite could be this I mean I remember
57:25 scrolling through YouTube one day and
57:27 there's this trash truck video it has
57:30 like 80 bazillion views and it's I'm
57:33 sure just all these 8-year-old kids
57:35 watching the trash truck come and dop
57:36 the trash I mean it is a little bit
57:39 magnetic like a moth to the flame right
57:41 but like come on yeah right so but there
57:45 are so many audiences for so many
57:46 different niches yeah whether you love
57:48 ponies or you love you know knitting or
57:50 you love Tech or you know there's
57:52 something for you yeah and I love that
57:55 it could become Mar you could become a
57:57 thought leader in that space I agree and
58:00 [Music]
58:01 um I I'm also seeing stats that more
58:04 people are watching YouTube on TV that
58:07 is unequivocally true right yeah and and
58:09 YouTube TV is actually doing quite well
58:11 very well it's one of the few cou
58:14 products that's actually succeeding yeah
58:16 it's it's like I think it's their
58:17 fastest growing segment yeah well he
58:19 raised the prices on me oh did they yeah
58:22 uh but share of watch time like on on TV
58:26 yeah YouTube is is growing like crazy
58:28 and I think it I believe it just eclips
58:31 Netflix as far as watch time on TV
58:33 correct um so it's yeah I mean it's
58:36 about the most relevant you know content
58:39 platform there is in my opinion yeah and
58:41 and that's why I'm excited going back
58:43 full circle tour is this the best time
58:44 or the worst time to create that's why I
58:46 think it's the best time right because
58:48 especially if you have a series like
58:49 ours or if you're a Creator thinking
58:51 about creating a series even if you're a
58:53 Singapore Airlines or AES or
58:56 um uh whoop brand yeah you could
58:59 serialize your content story driven
59:02 that's actually watchable that people
59:04 would tune in to watch and the
59:07 integration of these established TV
59:10 shows with YouTube content I mean if if
59:12 it's on TV I mean very blurry line
59:15 between what's Hollywood produced
59:18 exactly and what's what Brian produced
59:20 in his bedroom right right mhm which is
59:22 awesome for the little guy I agree again
59:24 it's meritocracy totally agree yeah yeah
59:26 that's I mean that's what drew me to
59:28 YouTube in the first place it's like
59:31 taking control yeah it just I think
59:33 that's as a kid what was like why my
59:35 heart was so in it was like you mean
59:38 anybody you know it's like it's so cool
59:40 it's cool that you can become um you can
59:43 make an impact if you just understand
59:46 like how to play the game right yeah
59:48 anybody can can can make an impact yeah
59:51 so let's pick that apart a little bit
59:52 more too like how to play the game right
59:54 so let's say you know you come up with
59:55 this elegant strategy you you know
59:58 execute on it you have it executed and
60:01 then you're not seeing a lot of traction
60:03 yeah right uh you know some of the
60:06 metrics uh some of the data points
60:08 feedback is views and engagement y
60:11 you're not seeing a lot but that doesn't
60:12 mean it's bad content how long do you
60:15 give that great idea until you pivot cut
60:17 bait how's that work yeah so I think
60:21 what I would maybe I would start a
60:23 couple steps back because I think the
60:25 thing that most um most brands certainly
60:29 get wrong but even um you know creators
60:31 get wrong is on on YouTube to to play
60:36 the game right um You you let's say you
60:40 come up with a concept for something you
60:42 want to like you think oh wow this would
60:44 be a really great idea so I think the
60:45 let let's go to whoop then let's to
60:47 whoop yeah so um it'd be really cool if
60:51 we brought Cristiano Ronaldo and had him
60:56 do a series of like soccer challenges
60:58 and you know along the way we're
61:00 measuring you know we've got the loop
61:01 data so we can show his biom you know
61:04 all all the stats yep that's a cool idea
61:07 sounds cool um what will happen is like
61:11 all right cool let's make that let's do
61:13 it uh let's bring Cristiano in let's
61:15 film this thing make it how however cool
61:18 we want and then um time to upload at
61:22 this stage they they asked 99% of the
61:25 time the at this very stage when it's
61:27 about ready to upload it's what's the
61:28 thumbnail and title going to be um and
61:32 that's the exact opposite order of what
61:33 you should be doing right and so to play
61:35 this game well what you should be doing
61:37 is ask yourself sure yes what is what is
61:39 the concept that I think is is worth
61:41 filming but then immediately after you
61:43 have that thought your question should
61:45 be what is the thumbnail and title that
61:50 gets me very convinced that people would
61:53 have to click on this and watch it yeah
61:55 and I often
61:57 argue um you know it's kind of maybe a
62:01 hot take but I would argue that if you
62:03 cannot come up with that packaging like
62:04 if there's if it's not clear to you what
62:07 a thumbnail en title would be that
62:09 deserves people's click you shouldn't
62:11 even make that thing you're just wasting
62:12 your time yeah like what what what good
62:15 is it if you made something incredible
62:16 and no one watches it yeah so you do
62:19 need to pass it through the filter of is
62:21 anyone going to choose to watch this
62:24 yeah I'll even take it step further back
62:27 yeah and use your own example is uh
62:30 where are my hungry people at is there
62:32 anyone even hungry oh yeah exactly
62:34 should I even be making food true right
62:37 so again it goes back to this
62:39 understanding of the audience of what
62:40 they need yeah because it is sort of
62:42 fundamental when you think about it um
62:45 you're right to your point the order of
62:47 operations is wrong even even
62:49 manufacturing it's like hey I thought of
62:51 making this product I think it's a great
62:54 idea maybe it solves my problem but I
62:57 don't know about other people but I'm
62:58 just going to make it yeah spend money
62:59 on a die you know manufacturing you make
63:02 a minimum quality quantity and you take
63:03 it to Market yes and no one buys it
63:06 surprise surprise you know you should
63:08 first find out where the demand is yeah
63:11 so one I mean a couple things I pitched
63:12 whoop for example just to give you a
63:14 sense um two formats that came to my
63:16 mind
63:17 were um the first is called pressure
63:20 tested and you know we went straight to
63:22 a thumbnail en title that we felt like
63:25 we're super super clickable but the idea
63:28 is to bring these professional athletes
63:31 or just great athletes I don't have to
63:32 be
63:33 professional and have them step into um
63:37 you know those moments that are pretty
63:40 high stress whether it's a second left
63:41 on a shot clock and you're shooting a
63:43 free throw or you know a boxer walking
63:47 up to the ring right before you know
63:49 those moments that are are hard to
63:51 understand how a professional like
63:54 mentally you know physiologically is
63:57 responding to them and there's Mass
64:00 curiosity I think amongst all of us like
64:04 what makes us different than a
64:05 professional athlete and being able to
64:08 actually put them in those moments
64:10 compared to just your regular everyday
64:12 people and see how they're because whoop
64:14 gives you all that data right as they
64:17 step up to these to these challenges
64:19 what is happening physiologically that
64:21 is or or maybe not different but
64:22 different than your everyday person who
64:26 you know I would imagine is sweating
64:28 bullets and heart rate is skyrocketing
64:30 and so giving giving that inside scoop
64:34 it also highlights the the product in a
64:36 amazing way like how much Insight you
64:38 get from the [ __ ] product but then pulls
64:40 the curtain open
64:43 to um the millions of people who are
64:45 just fascinated by professional athletes
64:47 and like what makes them different um
64:50 yeah or and sometimes I think that we're
64:51 holding up a mirror and we think am I
64:54 like Cristiano way yeah you know like
64:57 true oh you know he does it like this so
64:59 do I that's cool so you know we're
65:01 attracted to that it's true or it's
65:03 aspirational it 100% I mean if if you
65:06 saw Cristiano going for you know a free
65:09 kick or whatever penalty kick and you
65:11 see his heart rate going to whatever 160
65:15 you're like oh he's just like me like
65:16 yeah you know you you might think he's
65:19 cool as a bird or whatever you know just
65:20 it I think I think it bring makes
65:22 athletes even more relatable as well
65:24 yeah um actually I just saw a little
65:25 clip of that movie you're making in my
65:28 head which is Cristiano does it you see
65:30 what happens and then the you know
65:33 average dude does it too and he sees
65:35 himself doing it as well as Cristiano
65:37 but we see how actual it actually is
65:40 right right right and like the delusion
65:42 in his mind or the Distortion sure and
65:44 he's just like yes and we're just like
65:47 oh yeah not quite buddy yeah got a few
65:50 years so how do you do get to there
65:52 could be fun yeah yeah so I had a few
65:54 few ideas for them that you know I broke
65:56 down the what the packaging would look
65:57 like and how it would happen and all
65:58 that and I I think there's um that's
66:02 generally the approach that I think
66:04 anybody should take is just like concept
66:06 to quickly understanding how this would
66:10 be a must-watch for for a bunch of
66:13 people yeah and you're right you kind of
66:14 put it into these categories of you know
66:16 Mystique or suspense you know
66:19 Cliffhanger you know whatever there's
66:20 these categories right and you're using
66:23 the word format you know that's a TV
66:24 term right you know uh Survivor which is
66:27 a a format show yeah uh it's a
66:30 competition show that's the format yeah
66:32 exactly I like we you know we tend to go
66:34 to formats instead of just like one-off
66:36 videos because they have repeatability
66:38 to them you can swap in a VAR like hot
66:41 ones is arguably the the the most
66:43 successful YouTube format of all time um
66:46 unless you count Mr Beast stuff but you
66:48 know uh it's an interview show hot wings
66:52 and it doesn't matter how it arguably
66:55 has infinite lifespan because you just
66:57 swap in for a new celebrity that you
66:59 care about right and you see them die
67:00 over hot wings like it's it it has a
67:03 long long lifespan yeah um so I I
67:06 gravitate to formats a bit more yeah
67:08 smart Okay so recapping what you said
67:10 you know think in terms of format think
67:12 about you know the audience that you're
67:13 seeking to serve you know what is there
67:15 I'm starving moment that you can solve
67:18 exactly uh uh order of operations it's
67:22 can you show the thumbnail solving the
67:25 problem that you're thinking about
67:26 solving in a you know whatever size
67:31 pixel that is small mhm you know it's
67:34 small right exactly so often times the
67:37 problem is the complexity of the idea
67:41 can't be distilled into something simple
67:43 yeah and that's usually that's that has
67:47 in my in case usually what I kill an
67:50 idea for for that reason is like we we
67:53 thought it was a really cool like an
67:54 example of this was
67:56 at Jubilee we we made a a show called um
67:59 reverse relationship which was like what
68:01 what would happen if we brought um like
68:05 blind date people together and instead
68:08 of having them go through this order of
68:12 sequences um that you normally go
68:14 through in dating like first aid and
68:16 then whatever you we reverse it all so
68:18 actually the very first time they see
68:19 each other is under an altar that's and
68:22 then and then do you or don't yeah yeah
68:24 and then they they kiss without seeing
68:26 each other then we put them in a bed
68:28 then they meet you know they meet each
68:30 other's families and yeah we did it and
68:32 it was really fascinating um but the
68:35 series didn't do as well uh because we
68:39 could like it was it's kind of a it was
68:41 complicated to describe in the thumbnail
68:44 on title like how do you you know take
68:47 that entire sequence of events and make
68:49 it into one simple thing um it was
68:52 difficult it was difficult we we gave it
68:54 our best shot but I the pitch ping uh
68:57 it's Benjamin button's meets 90day
68:59 fiance exactly exactly it's very
69:02 difficult to describe in like because
69:03 you only get a you get oftentimes a
69:05 millisecond like that's so so I have
69:07 these tests for what makes a good
69:08 thumbnail and one of them is the
69:09 millisecond test like I I quite
69:11 literally just look at it and look away
69:13 and do you immediately know what it is
69:15 like it's a billboard yeah if you have
69:17 to sit and read it and like think for a
69:20 few seconds it's not a good it's not
69:22 good like it needs to be very instantly
69:24 clear yeah well I mean it's a bit of an
69:27 indictment on me I think this is a huge
69:29 area of improvement for us in our
69:31 Channel yeah um me makes massive massive
69:34 impact it does yeah yeah because people
69:36 have choices yeah and they are swiping
69:38 left and swiping right and swiping up
69:39 and down you know yep and another thing
69:41 we do is um we take a screenshot there's
69:45 a tool now that does this but we we used
69:47 to do it manually we take a screenshot
69:49 of the YouTube homepage with all the
69:51 thumbnails it gives you you know as
69:53 options and then we take the thumbnail
69:55 that we thought that would be good and
69:56 we we put it on top of one on and and we
69:59 we ask ourselves like how much does it
70:00 stand out relative to the Sea of
70:03 thumbnails that are being presented yeah
70:05 um so we do a couple tests like that I
70:07 love that is everyone else is green and
70:09 then okay so we need to go the opposite
70:11 of green which is yellow or purple or
70:13 you know on this yeah yeah and and but
70:15 see the thing is you won't know what the
70:17 homepage of the person who's getting
70:19 sered your video will look like so you
70:23 just have to kind of
70:25 you know if you if you place it in in
70:28 front of like 12 different thumbnails
70:30 the really the question is like is it
70:32 distinct enough in general that it would
70:35 stand out amongst you know whatever 20
70:37 different thumbnails um and it's a
70:40 helpful test yeah so I still didn't hear
70:42 you say how long you give the great idea
70:44 before you pet eight so we we tend to do
70:48 a um pilot series of for for our formats
70:52 and it's usually so basically after
70:54 three episodes
70:55 we we we cut it if it if it doesn't hit
70:57 our bar after three episodes but it's
70:59 very important to like three episodes I
71:04 know yeah so you do you do need to know
71:06 what you're looking for though to to
71:08 know whether to cut it or not like it's
71:11 short for us because we we've just you
71:15 know comparatively we can compare you
71:16 know just have all this data that we've
71:20 if we can look at three episodes within
71:21 a series be like yeah this seems like
71:23 it's just a dud yeah views or engagement
71:25 or both it's it's actually um well us
71:29 views is a um is more of a symptom of
71:34 the only two things that matter well
71:37 there's more than that but the two
71:39 needle movers are um clickthrough rate
71:42 and then you know average view duration
71:44 basically so is this concept interesting
71:48 enough for someone to click into it
71:50 right and then once they're there does
71:53 it is it engaging enough to keep them
71:54 watching yeah those two things are
71:56 arguably 90% of what matters on YouTube
71:59 yeah and then you know we look at some
72:01 other stuff like just the comments and
72:04 you know what percentage of people
72:05 subscribe to the channel after they
72:07 watch just little things like that but
72:09 those two those first two are by far the
72:11 biggest so if you get to three and it's
72:14 not the CTR and the uh average view
72:18 duration is not up to par and by the way
72:22 that assumes you you tweaked between
72:24 each
72:25 means you learned from you you saw the
72:28 first video and you saw what went wrong
72:30 like you looked at the CTR and the view
72:31 Direction like ah okay here's our
72:33 hypothesis on how we can make it better
72:34 the second time and you make that change
72:36 you remix it oh yeah yeah yeah you if
72:38 you don't remix then that's not a fair
72:40 you know you can't it' be hard to cut
72:41 after three you need to you need to
72:45 change something significant about it in
72:47 the second trial and if it happens again
72:49 you change it again and it's still after
72:52 three iterations of um looking at the
72:56 data and trying to improve it does not
72:58 work that's usually a time we we cut
73:01 yeah and how are you posting these are
73:03 they just published live or are you
73:04 publishing them sort of unlisted and
73:06 then no yeah just post it live okay
73:10 so let me tell you a quick story yeah
73:13 tell me I had this video um it's been
73:16 about four years and um you know she was
73:20 a bestselling author name is Mel Robbins
73:23 she's got a really popular podcast now
73:25 mhm I thought the interview was great it
73:27 I cut it down from like 90 minutes this
73:30 was like a 15minute clip just like
73:32 highlight like the best I posted that
73:35 and I thought it was just
73:37 excellent completely fell flat uh now I
73:41 didn't really tweat the thumbnail I was
73:43 guilty of what you just explained you
73:45 know content first thumbnail
73:47 afterthought um bummed out forgot about
73:51 it and I don't know 12 months goes by
73:55 mhm and I went back just by Happ inance
73:57 to see that video and it it had a few
74:00 hundred I'm talking about a few hundred
74:01 views I mean pathetic you know we have
74:05 just under
74:06 400k Subs right now anyway it just
74:09 completely deud I thought you know what
74:12 the hell yeah not fair um 12 months
74:16 later I go back and that thing has got
74:19 400k that's
74:21 awesome three months after that it was
74:24 up over 2 million that's incredible
74:26 another three or six months after that
74:27 is up at 4 million so must have I'm
74:31 guessing in her uprise or no like was it
74:34 because of her or no I don't know so
74:36 this is what I'm asking it's like
74:39 man I think you have to your advice is
74:42 solid yeah but I also think you have to
74:44 be careful because in my experience
74:47 sometimes it could be my own fault
74:50 either I didn't tag it right with a
74:51 metadata or descriptions it took a while
74:53 for the algorithm to find it and serve
74:56 it to the right people who loved it yeah
74:58 that happens eventually that does happen
75:00 a lot you know so well I can't say a lot
75:02 but that happens it definitely happens
75:04 um we have a pl we had plenty of flops
75:07 that um well yeah initially started as
75:09 flops and then because YouTube is all
75:12 like forever from the moment you publish
75:14 it to Forever in time trying to find
75:18 somebody who wants to watch that right
75:20 um so it it you know um it has a a
75:25 chance at life for sure um you know for
75:28 us it's
75:30 like not we're not saying we would
75:32 delete those videos after we gave them
75:35 you know those three three videos but
75:38 when you have only limited amount of
75:41 things you can make um we're we're we're
75:44 trying to optimize for things that we
75:46 feel um don't you know don't
75:49 need I don't know 24 months to find an
75:52 audience kind of thing so um it often
75:55 times is just kind of PRI a priority of
75:57 like trying to get closer or faster to
76:01 to some success yeah and that's another
76:03 good example of how strategy really
76:05 shouldn't change if you have a solid
76:06 strategy the TAC tactics can change even
76:09 the goals can change but the you want to
76:11 change tactics not strategy yeah that's
76:13 true and I would say there were there's
76:15 a couple partners of ours that um I so
76:18 convinced in the the format like the
76:22 concept and how it would work for their
76:24 um um their channel that we did try it a
76:29 few times but um and it didn't quite get
76:33 the
76:33 traction but like I I kind of was so
76:36 obsessed about the format that I I just
76:39 felt that they weren't quite executed in
76:42 in in the potent like that the potential
76:44 that the format had and so it's like
76:46 let's just let's let's keep trying yeah
76:48 um and that's you know if you have that
76:51 conviction that can still you know you
76:52 should still pursue that thing I think
76:54 as well yeah yeah and in Pros like Jimmy
76:57 I've heard him say you know it's a
76:59 ridiculous amount of time and money
77:01 invest those thumbnails yeah I mean I
77:04 think they're changing like hundreds of
77:06 times yeah he uh even during upload MH
77:10 he I think he spends I don't know um I
77:12 think the figure was like 30 or 40 grand
77:15 um per like videos thumbnails just
77:18 designing you know a hundred variations
77:21 and then doing an internal test on what
77:24 they think asking other people he
77:27 respects like what thumbnail is the best
77:28 and then yeah once you upload YouTube
77:31 now has the internal AB test so you can
77:33 upload three options and it will trial
77:36 and tell you which one's the best but
77:39 prior to that tool being launched there
77:41 were third party tools that allowed you
77:44 to rotate thumbnails I mean infinitely
77:48 like you could put 100 and SW swap them
77:50 every two hours or whatever it is and um
77:53 I think at that at that point it's a
77:54 like it's a little too much to do that
77:56 but um I do think AB testing is is
77:58 pretty important though yeah and I think
78:00 the message there too for just
78:02 underscore is like if if Jimmy Donaldson
78:05 has to spend 40 Grand per thumbnail and
78:09 he doesn't get it right the first time
78:10 out of the gate right if you're not
78:12 getting it right it's okay that's true
78:14 yeah you're right that's true yeah I
78:15 mean he's got to go through dozens
78:18 hundreds of iterations before he finds
78:19 the one all right you know take a breath
78:23 it's all right yeah that's true it's a
78:25 good point I mean we were just sitting
78:27 back you know chopping it up reminiscing
78:31 about the good old days and all that you
78:33 know tracking my roots where I came from
78:36 and where I'm
78:40 [Music]
78:43 going but like I say
78:46 man always said
78:48 it it's not about the destination
78:52 n it's all about the jour
78:56 B
Chrome Extension