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Here's Why Brands Fail on Youtube

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actually yeah pretty much every pivotal

like moment in my career was based on

like some hypothesis that I committed to

seeing through you know you're going up

against all these companies spending

billions of dollars on ads and the

brands that devote to making original

content on YouTube which is the largest

watch platform on the on the planet uh

will develop for themselves like massive

brand loyalty from audiences that

actually choose to watch their

content I'm Ryan hasimi founder and CEO

of snowball I built the business at

Jubilee media grew it to 14 million

subscribers and 5 billion views and

you're on behind the brand with Brian

Elliott everyone welcome to another

episode of the show Ryan pleasure

welcome thank you uh I usually ask my

guest how did you get this

job

well uh it took a long time of just

being embedded in in YouTube land for

for many many years right when it

started I was obsessed with it and um

spent all my free time on YouTube and

then eventually it turned into a

full-time career building an actual

Channel on YouTube um and we were I

think early days in building a media

company strictly YouTube focused and the

learnings of that I think were pivotal

and actually now launching an agency

that helps Brands figure out how to do

YouTube I love it uh we were talking off

camera that you're from St Louis that's

right um YouTube It's

2005 on that Universal

Pictures

um $50 million budget you know marketing

the Studio's biggest titles at the time

walk in the red carpet with movie stars

uh this little website comes out and it

changes the game like overnight you're

thinking this is a big deal well maybe

it was 12 months cuz then got acquired

by Google um where were you in 2005 what

were you doing I was in uh High School

MH yeah and uh we uploading so I it took

me probably about a year and a half well

so I started uploading after I think it

was a might have been a Wall Street

Journal article or some article that

came out that was saying um YouTubers

were making six figures um and you know

that's like nothing right now but um

that was to to me at the time

mind-blowing as a high schooler cuz

that's just where I thought people were

having fun um and it was after I read

the article that I started making

content on YouTube so I actually started

a channel was called the prize Channel

and um realized I wasn't like that

entertaining I didn't know what to do so

I I created a like a hub where we would

bring YouTubers together to collaborate

in this one channel and we'd like do

giveaways to Their audience um and I was

the sort of host of that prize Channel

and that's where I that channel then led

me down the path to where I am now

because I got to collaborate with a lot

of big YouTubers at the time and then

reconnected with them many years later

after I went you know to school college

and got a real job yeah and then circled

back to YouTube yeah it's so interesting

you know you talk about that getaway

giveaway strategy yeah that's basically

what Mr Beast does that PID true wash

that's his whole shtick yeah it's a

whole shtick well and leveling up

correct how you do it yeah outdoing

himself every single correct yeah which

I don't know how he's going to make that

scale we'll see right I think his Amazon

special is out this week it is yeah yeah

it is interesting um and so now I think

I'm thinking back to like old school

YouTubers I'm thinking like smos right

and like Jeff Marbles and like yeah uh

there was a guy named he called himself

Sexy Phil s Sexy Phil he he's now well

Philip def Franco is his oh Phil def

Franco yeah so that was that was my

first collab very very early days with

with him yeah um and then a couple other

guys this guy named keep the heat and

keep the heat Alex is who I then

reconnected with many years later to

pull me back in to YouTube so so cool so

you were in front of the camera I was

yeah and you're were just recording with

like a SLR or something yeah oh and what

was it I don't even remember what camera

it was I think it yeah it was it was um

I think it was a camcore yeah just

whatever my parents had yes so well well

because if we're going to like earmark

that time period I mean 2006 was iPhone

1 right I didn't even have an iPhone at

the time yeah yeah crazy right and a lot

of things started to sort of cascade it

was a whole I think shift from digital

into social yes uh 2007 Twitter launches

it South by Southwest every goes nuts

right that was such a big deal I

remember like this watershed moment when

like the world was suddenly connected

Twitter just took off like crazy

right

um Facebook was just coming out of the

colleges just a couple years out maybe

three years out two years out 2004 05 06

those are big years for Mark Zuckerberg

waiting through all his problems trying

to figure out um man it's back of the

day good times long yeah a long time ago

yeah and yet we're so it's like it's

been forever but it feels like still so

early in in this you know sort of Tide

shift that's happening I agree I agree

it feel like almost like everything and

nothing has changed right um so how did

you evolve the plan you you you

recognize that maybe you're not Phil the

Franco you're great on camera or quick

with the words um were you doing all the

editing too I was yeah yeah yeah so you

know your self talk just like all of

usbody um doing this as a oneman band in

bedroom yes uh how did you evolve the

planet how did you see what were you

seeing at the time

uh I think it was just the level and

still today why I love YouTube so much

the level of uh depth of of relationship

that you have with your audience is just

un unlike any platform I've seen and the

fandom the you know ability to actually

leverage your audience to get them to

convert in whatever you know way you

have in mind just seemed unparalleled

and there's a very sticky audience they

keep coming back they're very engaged in

the comment section yeah it it it felt

like at the time and I don't know well

we're close there with maybe with Mr

Beast and folks like him but it felt

like at the time like these are going to

be the next you know celebrities um

that's maybe my first like aha moment

was just how much people cared about the

folks that they're watching on YouTube

yeah I just I didn't see anything else

like that yeah we should also

mention uh Marquez mkvd we should have

mentioned I Justine we should mentioned

Casey nistad those are the Casey nistad

years kind of 2008 to that's right to

2014 like the Heyday yeah he was

instrument yeah he changed a lot of

Storytelling like what was possible on

YouTube and I think he brought in a

whole yeah I think YouTube owes a lot to

to Casey actually um he brought in a lot

of Open the Eyes I think of storytellers

filmmakers Etc that oh this can actually

be a PL it's not just for fun and you

know vlogging or whatever yeah and and

brand deals too like way he did this

brand integration you know that iconic

Nike SPoT that I think he did he tells

that story I think they gave him 25,000

bucks yeah and um I don't know it's I

think it's probably over 30 million

views at this point so yeah he crushed

it for for the brands he worked with for

sure yeah and so where did it take you

then so you you You' being a pivot at

some point yeah oh yeah

so it wasn't yeah it wasn't linear I I

I at some point gave up on YouTube from

myself and like okay cool that was like

a fun experiment and then I went to

college and studied finance and uh

economics and then went into um Finance

full-time as a career yeah so doing

investment research you know numbers guy

numbers yeah recommending stocks all

that stuff for clients and um I actually

really enjoyed that but

then I was a little bit I think just

working in a corporate environment you

know even though I love the subject I I

just very quickly learned that I guess

I'm just wired a little differently cuz

it just felt Soul crushing even with the

topic I cared about yeah so and then as

I was beginning to feel that uh one of

the YouTubers who I collaborated with in

high school reached out to me I was like

oh hey you're in business now awesome um

there's like hundreds of problems in

this industry still baby there's massive

opportunity here are all the problems

I'm saying here are like all the ways I

feel like they could be solved but I

have no no I have no business background

I don't know how to you know actualize

any of this like would you want to get

involved and so um I did I would I would

Moonlight I would just I'd come home

from the the investment job and then

from whatever 5: till midnight he and I

would would work together and eventually

that thing we were doing was was making

enough money for me to quit my my job

and uh at the time we were trying to

solve uh Creator collaborations like one

of the major ways you grew as a Creator

was just uh finding another Creator and

sort of cross-pollinating your your

audiences together and collaborating but

there wasn't a great way so if you were

in St Louis for example there wasn't a

great way actually no way really to be

like okay who else is in St Lewis that

makes YouTube videos that I could just

do a collab with yeah it was very

difficult to find likeminded creators

and so we were trying to solve that

problem um we first created a like

physical community we would host events

for YouTubers get sponsors to pay for

the events and then we you know started

making uh an app and it was like

LinkedIn at the time for for exclusively

for creators so that that pulled me back

into the world and in in some way what

was it called Rise N that's what it

called Rise N yeah you're like behance

no no nothing like that yeah no it's um

it's dead now but um it was it was very

it was very cool um and then while I was

doing that I got connected to

Jason Jason uh started Jubilee Jubilee

media with this vision of like

creating a mission First Entertainment

Company this was at the time this is

when uh was the first Trump election and

there was just massive division

happening I mean yeah we were just we

were just seeing so much

polarization and um Jason had been doing

with Jubilee he'd been doing nonprofit

for a while like trying to use media to

raise funds for clean water or sex

trafficking yeah and then the vision be

became bigger it was like how can we

affect culture and be the antithesis to

all this polarization so launch turned

Jubilee project which was the nonprofit

into Jubilee media uh for-profit startup

and right at that time he asked me to

come you know would you be interested in

building out this business and so um

said bye to rise 9 joined him at Jubilee

it was just like four or five of us uh

and then yeah came a you know Mass

roller coaster of this is one of the

best times of my life but that then set

off this you know Domino of being really

in YouTube yeah yeah yeah so weing on

this you know um you think this is the

best time or the worst time to jump into

to become a Creator Creator game um

I think it's the best time yeah I

mean what I would say

is it you know creators oftentimes when

they start they have they they're two in

their heads um and they ask themselves

like oh how do I be like XYZ Creator and

they end up just sort of copying you

know uh other creators and not finding

their own voice what makes them unique

yeah and I think if you're trying to

just be like I want to be the the next

what ever and just kind of copy other

people's styles that I would say maybe

not the best time for you there's just a

thousand people playing the copycat game

but if you have a distinct voice and you

have something unique you want to bring

to YouTube there is always always room

for that and I would also say like I've

been pleasantly

surprised like the amount of niches

within YouTube that you can be a uh lead

Creator in you know uh car excavation

gold mining I mean there's like I my

mind has just been blown over the years

by how many creators uh in the different

crazy niches that I didn't even know

existed yeah are killing it yeah yeah

it's true uh the wheels are turning out

I have so

many thoughts about what you just said

there's a lot there um I want to unpack

it just a little bit so I agree I think

you know the critics with would say well

everything's already kind of been done

sure and then the people who are fearful

or have that scarcity mindset they're

thinking oh AI is just going to and then

fill in the blank right um I feel the

opposite yeah I feel like you know um

yes there's a lot of dupes out there

people are going to create faceless

avatars that use AI to Parrot their

favorite we're seeing that with

thumbnail design even you know at that

level like people see a thumbnail design

that works and like all of a sudden

every

thumbs look the same so exactly you

always have to be pivoting and be out in

front well on that note if I can I would

say actually what we're seeing for

example with um clients and even with um

some creators like I that I Mentor now

like there's just these cycles that

happen on YouTube so uh the

beastify colors and William exaggerated

faces like that's

actually beginning to die a bit and

we're seeing like um creators who have

extremely minimal yes you know super

simple concept thumbnails are actually

now standing out more because it's just

now different than all the copy copycat

type stuff so yeah yeah the pendulum

swings back and forth right exactly um

just when you thought you had it figured

out it's like or you know even they

change the algorithm yeah uh let's talk

about that for a second have you seen

that change I mean in the beginning

you'd have a certain amount of

subscribers you could Bank on you know

10% 20% at times of that population

getting notified when you upload right

and now you'll be lucky if it's 1%

that's true that's true it's a drag yeah

yeah that so I would say that that's

probably the

biggest algorithmic change um ever that

you know from the biggest transition

that I think a lot of creators uh

friends of mine you know went through a

lot of pain exactly right is that if you

built your subscri early days if you

built your

subscribers your videos would just get

surfed to them because that's you know

that's why they click subscribe well

that's what they told us correct yeah

the point yeah yeah exactly now um I

will say I'll maybe credit to to YouTube

is that like after this change not much

has CH has changed but now YouTube

prioritizing what is going to get us the

most watch time on our platform yeah um

is is is simply saying so if you have

subscribers it they do actually use your

subscribers at first as like a testing

ground right like do your subscribers

even like this video and they compare it

you know they're doing a lot of

comparative uh stuff and if your

subscribers seem to like your video a

lot then it will start to spread you

know but it's it gone to the days where

it's just yeah you're you're 100,000 sub

subscribers are all going to be watching

the video you made it's a now it's a

small subset of them are tested uh with

once it get uploads and then if it does

well it'll proliferate from there yeah

yeah um when you're saying you know it's

gone from like overproduced thumbs to

like under produced I think the name

that comes to mind do you know Sam silic

yeah of course oh yeah that's a classic

bodybuilder like not not even like zero

effort in his pack in his like thumbnail

and stuff yeah you know he's got the

road mic clipped to his hat you know

it's all dark there's no production he's

just holding a camera up in his car

sometimes yeah I my so I would

say that's an interesting case study for

me because

um a lot of people who saw that and even

like folks in the you know YouTube space

were like oh this is like that packaging

is where everything is headed so let's

do more let's try to do Sam silic style

right I would say like not so fast I

guess um you know he developed a sort of

cult-like following yeah

where people really wanted to go super

deep with him and they really like the

raw authentic I'm not even trying I'm

just being myself and you know it's

almost like he's succeeding despite his

lack of effort on the packaging I

wouldn't say that it's because of his

you know minimal packaging um but

on that same note though we are seeing

though the more simple in concept the

less you know vibrant colorful poppy

thumbnails actually are working a little

better right now yeah this is maybe a

good time for me to talk about brand

this series is called behind the brand

people come and listen and watch I think

to learn how to build their brand from

the experts who are doing it um I've

asked probably 500 plus people this

question uh what is a brand and and I'll

kind of couch that or give some context

around that I think Sam is true to his

brand and that's why whatever it ends up

looking like is why it's being well

received exactly and so the answer to

like what should I do on the creative

side is you know who is your audience

yeah who are youh so uh so how do you

because I want to understand too like

how you think about brand but I also

think of you know how you maybe position

the snowball brand yeah yeah that's a

great Point um I think what you said is

100% accurate

brand is to me

basically the outward expression of like

what you are trying to do as a company

you know it sometimes you could say it's

like the embodiment of your mission or

Vision but you know I think where it

gets a little um muddied is is sort of

when you add the the uh traditional sort

of branding element to it like brand

strategy

and that I think is you know like how

our um what's our Aesthetics our colors

or Vibes all that stuff that to me

doesn't matter as much I think it's

um when we look at what often times

people are drawn to especially on

YouTube for example it truly is like

authenticity that's like the name of the

game and so for me uh good branding is

is um pushing past all the

administrative and like you know

basically the BS and just asking

yourself like how can we

fully embody what we stand for as a as a

company in everything we do um that's

that to me is is is branding because it

it shows up in everything you put out if

that if if you actually try to to live

by that yeah I think that tracks with

what I've heard too I had my two cents

you know I think back uh you know

literal like in you know Wild West you

know they're putting a brand on a horse

you know it's it's the RL ranch or you

know whatever yeah yeah you know that is

a literal brand you can identify that

that is your property but that's not

what we're talking about here cuz a

brand is not your logo It's Not Your

Mark it's it's not even your color

palette your right your legal Bible but

what you can and cannot say all that

stuff I think is window dressing exactly

it's important yeah it's important uh

because it helps communicate what you're

trying to do but you know Above All Else

a brand is distinct M and a brand is

something I think people are willing to

stand in line for right pay a premium

for that's right so it's like you know I

go to Costco and there's like a bottle

of ibuprofen you know the size of like a

pickle barrel uh and it's like $8 right

or I can buy the Advil right next to it

for $500 I don't care right about the

generic brand right I don't need to buy

the name brand Advil because it's the

same in medicine so I buy the notand

because it does the same thing right and

so I'm not willing to pay a premium for

Advil because it doesn't matter right

it's indistinguishable yeah I agree I I

think the window dressing as you as as

you called it is unfortunately where it

seems like most companies get lost in

The Branding like like um it's almost

like they use the window dressing as

just kind of checking boxes and and and

they're not really um they're not really

asking ourselves like how do we

maximize the the presence of our like

Mission Vision like why people even like

us in the first place how do we maximize

that it it all gets watered down by the

like what you're saying like oh we can't

say that or you know just let's tweak

tweak this put this there it's just I

think it just is a is a you know not not

a good exercise yeah well it is in some

way all part of it so another thing I

was thinking is that a brand is a short

hand for what you stand for it's what

people

say about you when you're not in the

room yeah and so therefore you know you

have these best laid plans you you know

you create this brand you put it out

there in the world and then uh your part

is done to a certain degree right you

got to walk the talk right do what you

promise to do but then people have their

own interpretation I'm thinking I saw

this spot on the uh is it AES you know

um that high luxury bag brand right and

they have these bags that are like over

$100,000 in the piece right but uh you

know price is a story but also uh that

exclusivity the fact that no you cannot

have it you're right is also part of

their

brand uh this is rare this is special

this is handmade to the nth degree and

and that all goes into the brand

exercise too no no we're not making a

you know 100,00 of these this is like

the you know the Ferrari there's it's

numbered right limited and that's part

of the brand too so agreed you know you

can have lots of different brand

strategy yep if you're uh you know

someone like Walmart you're the lowcost

producer right if you're someone like

AES you know you can expect to wait and

not get what you want and then

eventually pay way more if expected

right and that's and it it it's funny

because it often it's a way to express

our own identity oh yeah by what we

choose to purchase yeah what we choose

to prioritize a purchase cuz if I'm

going to buy a bag like that what does

that say about me right I'm a person of

means I'm not in a hurry right I care

about hand

craftsmanship I care about social proof

or status you know yeah exactly so

branding is so important I agree and

you're in the strategy business so let's

break down what strategy is um because I

think strategy is your thesis I don't

think it's your goal or the tactics

I think it's more of your I think it's

more of a uh an Essence your thesis of

your how to go about something but let

me hear it from you yeah

um uh there's I forgot the guy's name um

but there's a book that I read that

informed I think my opinion on this is

called uh play to win and um it's

essentially what you said which is the

strategy is essentially um to use your

word an actual thesis a hypothesis

on how you're going to achieve what you

you know set out to achieve um it's not

the the planning it's not the you know

um administrative like oh we need to

hire 20 people we need to you know th th

that all those things are sort of a

byproduct of your your strategy yeah and

so I to to your point I do think a lot

of people oftentimes don't have a well

thought out or robust enough strategy

yeah and they just kind of move into the

to the sort of planning oftentimes like

this they called strategic planning

which I think is a a misnomer um you got

to have a very clear strategy your your

plan on how you actually um you know set

out to win what you're after yeah and

then comes all the you know like what do

we need to execute on I agree I think

people

conflate uh tactics and goals mhm they

also conflate strategy with goals or

strategy with tactics

this is you know what we're going to do

no no no no like that's not strategy

those are tactics right uh I like

biographies uh was reading George

Washington's biography lately it's is

super interesting wow uh just as an

aside so George Washington's strategy is

fascinating uh he you know I I knew

nothing really about the Revolutionary

War even his thing but like and I could

talk for three hours on this but um it

seems like George Washington's strategy

knew he knew the cards he had to play

and they weren't good cards it's this

rack tag you know American Army against

the most significant military force in

the world of the time especially if it's

the Navy the British Navy like

unbelievable power you know and then

their dominance across the world but you

know so you think about this kind of

David and GLI story right but George

Washington knew what he was up against

yeah so what was his strategy fight him

head on no fight you know uh lining up

the way that they did no he needed to go

Rogue he needed to go gorilla uh and in

fact George

Washington his greatest I think

strengths were in these strategies to

like do little attacks and then Retreat

so he would like go and engage and then

he would run away that's funny and

Escape because he didn't have the means

sure not not enough ammo you know the

people were starving they were wearing

like their you know cloth around their

feet frozen to death and then you know

that um famous picture he's Crossing the

Delaware too right again that's a

strategy about trying to catch the enemy

off guard yeah freezing cold fog

everywhere right tumultuous Waters I

mean yeah the strategy is so important

and one of my mentors Seth Goden said

something that stuck with me he said

you know it doesn't matter how fast

you're going if you're going in the

wrong direction there no good right so

like strategy understanding you know how

you're going to go about it that thesis

is so important and often will dictate

the outcome right I agree have you seen

that then in your own path I think so I

mean I even just in launching snowball I

think it was entirely launched on a on a

thesis um

and and had no idea what the tactics

were going to be um and to

me actually yeah pretty much every

pivotal like moment in my career was

based on like some hypothesis that I

committed to seeing through and

[Music]

um I'll say for snowball for example you

know we in in this world of like

complicated marketing you know it's like

to borrow from the George Washington

example um you know you're going up

against all these companies spending

billions of dollars on ads and um you

know think about all the different you

know Billboards campaigns TV

spots my hypothesis uh was that the

brands that devote to making original

content on YouTube which is the largest

watch platform on the on the planet uh

will develop for themselves like massive

brand loyalty from audiences that

actually choose to watch their content

not just like you know ads sprayed in

front of them right um and so now I'm on

this you know I don't know how however

long it's going to take but I'm on this

mission to sort of uh see that through

and and play that out yeah so how are

you helping them be their authentic self

to be true to their brand yeah you know

because you're right uh every single

successful

YouTuber has their own brand personal

brand yeah you know we mentioned Phil de

Franco you know I know what Phil's brand

is you know it's uh that form of news

yeah uh non-traditional news story um

with a lot of wit a lot of wit yeah um

Sam so back to Sam Sam I

think I think um I think strategy

requires a ton of

empathy and when I use the word empathy

like a firm understanding of

who you're dealing with at any given

time yeah so it could be your audience

you know if you have personas or in the

case of George Washington he

knew his team yeah not great yeah up

against a formidable enemy and so he had

his strategy planned accordingly right

and so I think you know back to Sam Sam

was like [ __ ] it man uh I'm bodybuilding

you guys want to come along with me I'm

G show you how I'm doing it right and

it's not uh you don't need the masses

for that right you just need the right

number of people comp care that's true

happens to be a lot but you know MVP is

this name This Acronym that's thrown

around in startup it's it's also kind of

like minimum viable audience sure like

that's true who should you be focused on

who do you care about true how are you

helping these creators do that yeah so

from a the brand perspective as much as

I you know don't love getting getting

stuck in window dressing what we

obviously our starting point for a lot

of them is to understand what they

believe their brand to be yeah so we're

not we're oftentimes not like dictating

their brand by any means it's it's a

full understanding of what they um have

come to realize about their brand today

from like customer personas to why

people care about their brand and um we

always start things off with like a two

three hour Deep dive and just trying to

understand everything about their brand

but then to your point on like minimum

viable

audience what our creative team then

does is create a a format sort of road

map of Concepts types of videos that we

feel can bring that whatever we just

learn from that brand what makes their

brand important brings that to life in

an interesting entertaining way that

people would actually want to watch and

we won't know like we we're oftentimes

um pivoting along the way right we make

content that the brand is excited about

that we're excited about but then based

on what we learn we're constantly

evolving over time yeah can we do like a

little uh live case study there give me

your feedback we'll see how this goes

yeah so let's go back to Hermes okay

um we know who they are we know what

they stand for yeah we know about know

how much a burka bag costs um what could

they be doing on YouTube

so what's the strategy there's a huge

Niche

for um so as actually subreddit I found

uh I don't know seven eight years ago

but it's it's blown up um it's it's it's

called Artisan videos is a massive Niche

for artisanal like craftsmanship like

how it's made MH yeah and you know one

of the for example uh a a brand that

that there was a spot an episode of a

video I think uh Singapore Airlines did

which was like how Singapore Airlines

makes I think I don't remember the

numbers but like 200,000 meals for their

first class A Day right yeah and you're

you know for any person that's

interesting right you're like oh how

yeah that is a challenge how do they do

that and then they walk you through the

process and obviously it's premium it

looks you know the food that they're

showing how they develop the menu and

how much care they put into it and um

you're you're in it just for the How

It's Made thing but along the way you're

you're observing how much care they put

into it yeah and similarly with Hermes

like there's a whole I think there's an

entire world around their um their

design process right like how these

$100,000 bags are actually designed from

the to the manufacturing process you

talk about the handcrafted to the nth

degree like people want to see that and

there is really interest like my

hesitation is typically Brands uh make

it too commercial like it almost feels

like you're watching a commercial right

but if they can um have sort of uh take

a much more authentic approach more

native to how I think YouTube content is

I I think there's entire like whole set

of series for a brand like arz to

showcase the amazing amount of work

going into their products but also then

the takeaway when people watch it are

like that is worth $100,000 yeah like so

it's you know pulling them into to your

world and getting people even more

excited about how these bags are put

together and made yeah do you think

about um like personas and like the

target audience you do targeting yeah we

do yeah I mean often times they so the

brand will present us their their

personas usually like they' often times

have done like a ton of Consulting work

and you know they they they have

personas and they walk us through that

and then what we do is we kind of have

an exercise internally um we call it

sort of The Starving crowd exercise and

um it's it's based off of this guy named

Gary Halpert who um just I don't know if

this actually happened but the story

goes he was giving a lecture at a

university and was asking his

students um you we're going to open up

competing hamburger stands and I'll give

you guys whatever Advantage you want so

what do you want and people will be like

I want the best best quality ingredients

or cheapest you know source for um the

meat or whatever it is and he's like

cool I'll give you all that but I'm

still going to kill you guys because I

only want one thing and that's that my

audience is starving because I can sell

them anything um and that always stuck

with me and so usually the last exercise

we do with a brand is given all that

you've given us about your brand and

your your mission your vision your

personas ultimately like how can we

distill that down uh from a Content

perspective for the the set of people

who would be starving for the content

that you would be making yeah like that

they would just you know it's it

scratches a major itch that they have CU

that'll help you that'll help you

attract your initial audience a lot

easier it knows it sort of sets a path

so you're not making content aimlessly

as well right um and then over time that

like what you learn is sort of shapes

and Evol olves that but uh that's

generally where we start is with a

thesis around who your starving crowd is

and how do we make content that like

Wows them yeah yeah I think about that

young kid he's probably 10 or 11 by now

uh the kid who unwraps all the toys oh

is that Ryan Ry Ryan's World toy world

or whatever yeah yeah yeah yeah um you

know you look at that kind of video or

you look at um this your Singapore

Airline example so who do you think

that's for I have my idea who that's

aimed at uh I mean in a in a sense it

could it's watchable by anyone but

that's not the point right it's not it's

a it's aimed at certain people so who do

you think that that's AED at sing I

think I think the goal of that piece

whether this was intentional or not

is if you because a choice of an airline

like it sometimes feels like a commodity

right it's like who 100% yeah it's like

well I you know I'm just pick the

cheapest flight or whatever it is right

but and I think that's the opposite of

being a brand m is you become this logo

or quantity exactly there's no meaning

yeah exactly I mean even for me when I

think about how I purchase um there's

really only one like for me it's Delta

Airlines like if I can get a Delta

flight I'm going to prioritize that or

Jet Blue as an example um why is that uh

just because I've had really good

experiences it feels uh my flight

experiences have been great with them

yeah I like you know the professionalism

of their staff and um JetBlue often has

like modern and like their their planes

are equipped with everything I need um

and for Singapore Airlines I think when

you watch that

video what you want what you want your

consumer to be doing when they choose an

airline to purchase from is I I think

you want them to be thinking from an

experiential perspective as opposed to

just okay that one has the cheapest

price um and and you watch you you watch

from beginning to the the food actually

being

served you then have a significantly

greater appreciation for all the work

and sort of the bar for Quality that

Singapore Airlines puts in to actually

bring you that you know that food their

craft essentially yeah and so if it can

nudge someone in in that final decision-

making where it's like

sing you know they see like how can I

make my trip even better or uh I think

this would be a significantly better

14-hour flight yes I'll pay a little bit

more but I get that Singapore Airlines

experience like that's what that video

does it puts the buyer in that frame of

mind removing them from commodity status

a bit and into the experiential feeling

and brand and like you know quality that

that I think they want people to think

yeah yeah I I just keep going back I

mean I think that's a strategy and I

think I keep going back to empathy

because uh and I'm just guessing because

I don't know yeah Singapore Airlines I'm

guessing they take a lot of long flights

oh yeah right and so if you have your

you have sit in a plane for a long time

yeah one of the major things is comfort

food you know like just being hydrated

nutrition exactly having a good

experience um and traditionally airplane

food is [ __ ] right so

uh it sounds like what they're saying

without saying it in this show in tell

is like hey we know you're going to be

on plane for a long time right we know

the food is usually terrible y ours is

not right we're going to have a great

experience our um play attendant are

well dressed Y super polite you're going

to get one of those warm towels and then

you're going to have this amazing meal

and let us show how show how you would

uh it's made yeah that's see to me like

you know when when you say that the the

feeling that comes to my mind is for

Singapore Airlines what they're saying

is your vacation does not start when you

arrive to your to your location it

starts when you get on our plane yeah

like you actually get you enjoy that

that whatever 12-hour flight from some

departure to to land yeah and you know

especially if it's a long-distance

flight like those those often

are uh it can be 10 20% of your entire

vacation time yeah right so why not have

a really great experience getting to

your location yeah and I think that's

that's where um people with personal

Brands and the brands themselves really

need to live in that space you think

about a company like uber you know yes

they maybe trying to replace taxes but

it wasn't about getting from A to B it

was about convenience or like having

control over when and where you picked

up your car so in the same sense um

Singapore Airlines is uh they understand

their customer y the problem they've got

to to solve again you know back to your

example about I just want to find this

person who's starving right that's their

problem to solve they're hungry we have

no food we're going to fill fill that

whole yeah literally um and uh yeah

so strategy about empathy I agree yeah

um okay so snowball love the name what

is the snowball

brand still still a work in progress um

because we are like about seven eight

months old now um but the idea behind

snowball as a brand

is you know I think I'm just tired

especially my my you know I have I I

love Brands I I have um a lot of

favorite Brands and I go and look at

their their social content and it's

usually awful right um and and it kind

of bothers me um like they they're

Innovative Brands they're making

incredible um products

and you know nothing they're doing on on

social

matches how amazing I feel about their

brand let's talk them out in a

constructive way say we love your brand

but you're deing it up on social and

then maybe let's offer some suggestions

so toss out a couple that you think sure

I mean um someone I I I pitched uh the

other day or just talk I have like a

interview that we're trying to do with

him um uh whoop the this the fitness

band whoop so they I know will on it

Will's been on this has he amazing so I

I sent him and his chief of staff like a

proposal um like just offering value

only like look I love your brand um and

you guys are Innovative you have a long

life ahead of you but your content is is

is bad and you you're they're beginning

to invest in it more and so I gave them

uh a lot of thought starters on where

they can start with the content um they

have Cristiano Ronaldo and yeah they

have access to bun of homes and all

these guys yeah so I mean and and and

yet when you look at their their their

content so they have a really great

podcast with Will and and athletes yeah

but even then they're they're

undermining its success potential by not

putting enough effort into uh the

packaging like the thumbnail and title

is so critical on YouTube and I don't I

don't think they're doing a good job

with it um and so I gave them

suggestions on that as well but um for

them their their main the way they could

improve significantly is in the formats

like the what they actually make could

be significantly better um and I'm happy

to get into what I what I pitch them but

um well maybe not the pitch but like so

by formats you talking about like

vertical horizontal you're talking about

platform specific no mo mostly um like

maybe what we would call shows or you

know what series of content you should

make yeah

um creating series that actually embody

the uniqueness of their product but also

are fascinating to watch like my the

entire goal of snowball is is to help

awesome Brands make content people

actually want to watch like they choose

to watch so helping them pivot from you

know Uninvited interruptor right with

ads right to a Preferred Choice in

content yeah this is an advertorial for

whoop I've seen this a thousand times

they just want me to buy the the thing

yeah I mean people like those have their

places right but people are a little bit

tired of being sold too right and I the

the thesis that snowball is built on and

we actually launching a partnership a

research partnership with USC to to

measure some of this

but um if people actually seek out your

content and and choose to watch it and

it's entertaining to watch and you've

won their respect from a Content

perspective that's going to have massive

um I think brand lift brand Affinity

recognition way more than a cool I don't

know TV ad or Instagram ad or whatever

it is yeah um and so that's kind

of our brand is like the embodiment of

that and snowball is essentially you

know the Snowball Effect right we think

over time you play the long game this is

going to have massive it becomes a brand

moat for you mhm um everyone else is

doing whatever you're trying to do in

marketing right now very few people are

are trying to make really great organic

content very very few Brands uh and so I

I think it's the next 10 years of

differentiation for Brands is is this

yeah now that you mentioned it there was

an OG in the space and there's still the

OG but there's not many others you're

right and that's Red Bull yeah oh yeah

Red Bull is my wife works for Red Bull

okay yeah I mean they've been amazing

they've been the leader they get

it from like the very beginning yeah

it's it's it's it's funny because um

there's no product in that yeah I know I

know it's like

the you know they they most of their

investment when you look at like

Personnel and operations and all that

stuff it's it's it's mostly in the

manufacturing of the attention not not

you know like in fact I think they have

a lot of partner ship in the actual

producing of their of their be surprised

yeah but all of their attention goes

into the embodiment of the Red Bull you

know spirit in in in content and um I

think sometime yeah Red Bull is is is

tough because a lot of Brands look at

Red Bull and they're like well we're

just we're just not that like that's you

know we're not energy and caffeine and

you know we can't do that and I think I

think that's

unfortunately you know if if a brand

wants to put on do events or whatever

they're not going to look at Disneyland

and be like oh we can't we can't compete

with that it's just you're not trying to

do what Red Bull does what what Red Bull

does really really well is make content

that's true to their brand so the

question is just like what is a what is

great content that's true to your brand

it will look very different than what

Red Bull is doing you don't have to jump

off whatever they're doing you know deep

dive from space yeah to your point you

can you can't copy the strategy yeah

because that strategy can work for as

correct or for Mr Beast or for others

the other brand that comes in mind

that's doing it well is yeti uh yeah I

hear that one a lot like just super like

very authentic to the brand agreed I

agree yeah very I I'm trying to

find like because other when I work when

we're sort of talking to Brands and and

and closing deals with them often a

question I ask is like well what other

brands are are doing this well like it's

almost like they're looking for proof

that it can work right um and it the

list is very small it's very small um

yeah for us then that's big oper yeah

yeah exactly there will be I mean and

there are as we're talking to some of

them there will be brands that I

think want to be different and want to

sort of take um a leap and innovate with

with marketing with

branding and I think at my my gut is in

the next one to two years there will be

a sort of avalanche of

you know I can't call them follower

Brands but as they finally see ah this

is oh that's that's really cool um

there's just going to be a Title Wave of

Brands finally seeking to make good

organic content yeah I mean it's it's

speculating but I would say I have a

feeling I know why they are so stuck in

that rut L to hear yeah uh well lots of

different reasons

one the leaders ship is old school true

and they haven't done it before mhm

another reason is uh man it's sort of

like this crack Edition uh he uh

or a crack habit of paid media right

because you know if I if I know that my

row as is going to be three four seven

that's true well heck Ryan you know I

give you a dollar I get $3 back right

I'm going to do that all day long washer

and repeat and um that's true it's like

this addiction because it's measurable

whereas if you create this

series it's um it's more nebulous it's

you're building a brand you're not doing

advertising direct marketing that's

right that's right it this oftentimes

falls into you know if you look at like

marketing budgets and you have just sort

traditional marketing media dollars this

often is put in the sort of branding you

know category where it's um

harder to measure Roi yeah it's still in

their cost center though so they're

thinking well I'm G there's a cost

output you know where's the input it's

like you do a trade show okay the booth

cost

$220,000 you know we write you know uh

$30,000 worth of orders okay the the ROI

was 10K that's right um but that's not

how this works yeah so one one like one

of our clients is um atfs they're a um

large like SAS uh SEO tool

and I I really like how their mindset is

very forward thinking you would think

like what what does a what does a SAS

like technical B2B SAS company deserve

being on YouTube for like how do they

make boring you was very boring yeah um

tell me how to work in Abacus yeah yeah

it's it it does you just it's not a

natural fit and yet you know over the

past few months we we've evolved them

into storytellers on YouTube uh where

actually the point of the content it's

it's a little bit more uh wide appeal so

they're they're no longer looking to to

Target just straight technical SEO

people like folks in that space already

know about ATS sure their their whole

initiative now is how do we actually get

more people just open their eyes to what

SEO even is and that it's actually not

as complicated as to think and it can

have massive impact all that and so

we're shifting them more into

storytelling uh that can capture a wider

audience and in that storytelling it um

becomes sort of painfully obvious how

impactful SEO can be and it's working

quite well and what they do which I

think um is easier because they're sass

but they in their sign up flows they

just ask basically you know how did you

hear about us and and they see a pretty

interesting increase of number of times

people are clicking YouTube and so I

think there are ways to measure it and

in fact YouTube in the long run actually

can be extremely powerful from a

conversion perspective you have to you

have to earn the trust a little bit

first you don't go hard there but in the

long run it can actually be one of the

highest converting uh you know taking

your audience and having them convert to

your product it's I I believe it's

actually maybe you know one of the

highest Roi things you could do oh yeah

pretty to the choir I mean um direct

advertising and direct marketing has its

place you know uh when it's back to

school time and old Old Navy advertises

and my kid needs jeans yes exactly hey

I'm I'm in you know I'm right there I

need that so thanks for reminding me

with dinnerbell and oh there's a buy one

get one or a 30% off for limited time

great and I go get it problem is with

advertising it's like a shotgun blast

yes uh not everyone's ready to buy a new

pair of jeans for back to school school

right so a lot of that gets wasted yep

um but what you're saying is a brand

building is building trust it's it's

that people will wait in line around the

corner I remember like when the Supreme

store opened y was it five years ago

when that was a thing right uh man

snaked around the corner merchandise is

gone it's gone right and you know you

felt lucky that you got it that's right

um I'm hearing rumors that YouTube is

testing

taking away uh views and likes and all

that are you hearing the same thing

um I I mean I've heard like over the

past few years I've I've heard that a

few times I don't know if that's

actually going to happen um I feel like

we could get there and here's why um I

feel like YouTube isn't competing with

Tik Tok even though you might say oh you

know YouTube shorts that's an answer to

Tik Tok eating their lunch on the short

form

or um you know what's another you know

uh Instagram you know you've got the

community tab blah blah blah I don't

think they're competing with other

social networks I think YouTube is now

competing with television broadcast for

sure and so if you take away the views

and you take away the likes basically

it's all these signals that other people

like it which would persuade you even if

you weren't interested in that content

to watch it oh everyone else has seen it

maybe I should see it too then it's just

meritocracy uh you're not building an

audience you're attracting an audience

and you only get to keep them if you

earn their attention and

therefore YouTube becomes more like

Netflix that way y that doesn't show any

of their metrics either right if it if

you like the show it needs to be damn

good y right yeah uh it's very possible

very possible and Spotify is kind of

doing the same thing so they just

announced their creator fund and and

they're doubling down on video it's very

interesting I feel

like well we do know is happening like I

I haven't heard movement on on this

removing of views but what we have seen

happening is uh a a shift

in you know

algorithmically presenting smaller and

newer and smaller channels much more

frequently right so that is happening

right now uh if you search for

something um you know two two three

years ago you would largely see

the more popular you know stuff that

pissed me off yeah yeah it's hard to

break through but now it's there is a a

pretty noticeable increase in the amount

of search results or just um if you're

in a category of content that you're

going to get hit uh in a way that you've

not before with like brand new channels

um and so that could be a step in the

direction you're talking about yeah but

I I I do agree that that's actually a

complaint a lot of small art creators

have is

like I if it's if you have to constantly

compete with everyone who already has a

massive audience like do we have any

chance starting out I think YouTube's

trying to answer for that a little bit

more yeah I I like that direction I like

I do too the Netflix model of because

you don't know who the next amazing

Creator is right like give them a chance

right yeah it's not just that but it's

like um good content is not toine by how

many views it has well could be the

opposite could be this I mean I remember

scrolling through YouTube one day and

there's this trash truck video it has

like 80 bazillion views and it's I'm

sure just all these 8-year-old kids

watching the trash truck come and dop

the trash I mean it is a little bit

magnetic like a moth to the flame right

but like come on yeah right so but there

are so many audiences for so many

different niches yeah whether you love

ponies or you love you know knitting or

you love Tech or you know there's

something for you yeah and I love that

it could become Mar you could become a

thought leader in that space I agree and

[Music]

um I I'm also seeing stats that more

people are watching YouTube on TV that

is unequivocally true right yeah and and

YouTube TV is actually doing quite well

very well it's one of the few cou

products that's actually succeeding yeah

it's it's like I think it's their

fastest growing segment yeah well he

raised the prices on me oh did they yeah

uh but share of watch time like on on TV

yeah YouTube is is growing like crazy

and I think it I believe it just eclips

Netflix as far as watch time on TV

correct um so it's yeah I mean it's

about the most relevant you know content

platform there is in my opinion yeah and

and that's why I'm excited going back

full circle tour is this the best time

or the worst time to create that's why I

think it's the best time right because

especially if you have a series like

ours or if you're a Creator thinking

about creating a series even if you're a

Singapore Airlines or AES or

um uh whoop brand yeah you could

serialize your content story driven

that's actually watchable that people

would tune in to watch and the

integration of these established TV

shows with YouTube content I mean if if

it's on TV I mean very blurry line

between what's Hollywood produced

exactly and what's what Brian produced

in his bedroom right right mhm which is

awesome for the little guy I agree again

it's meritocracy totally agree yeah yeah

that's I mean that's what drew me to

YouTube in the first place it's like

taking control yeah it just I think

that's as a kid what was like why my

heart was so in it was like you mean

anybody you know it's like it's so cool

it's cool that you can become um you can

make an impact if you just understand

like how to play the game right yeah

anybody can can can make an impact yeah

so let's pick that apart a little bit

more too like how to play the game right

so let's say you know you come up with

this elegant strategy you you know

execute on it you have it executed and

then you're not seeing a lot of traction

yeah right uh you know some of the

metrics uh some of the data points

feedback is views and engagement y

you're not seeing a lot but that doesn't

mean it's bad content how long do you

give that great idea until you pivot cut

bait how's that work yeah so I think

what I would maybe I would start a

couple steps back because I think the

thing that most um most brands certainly

get wrong but even um you know creators

get wrong is on on YouTube to to play

the game right um You you let's say you

come up with a concept for something you

want to like you think oh wow this would

be a really great idea so I think the

let let's go to whoop then let's to

whoop yeah so um it'd be really cool if

we brought Cristiano Ronaldo and had him

do a series of like soccer challenges

and you know along the way we're

measuring you know we've got the loop

data so we can show his biom you know

all all the stats yep that's a cool idea

sounds cool um what will happen is like

all right cool let's make that let's do

it uh let's bring Cristiano in let's

film this thing make it how however cool

we want and then um time to upload at

this stage they they asked 99% of the

time the at this very stage when it's

about ready to upload it's what's the

thumbnail and title going to be um and

that's the exact opposite order of what

you should be doing right and so to play

this game well what you should be doing

is ask yourself sure yes what is what is

the concept that I think is is worth

filming but then immediately after you

have that thought your question should

be what is the thumbnail and title that

gets me very convinced that people would

have to click on this and watch it yeah

and I often

argue um you know it's kind of maybe a

hot take but I would argue that if you

cannot come up with that packaging like

if there's if it's not clear to you what

a thumbnail en title would be that

deserves people's click you shouldn't

even make that thing you're just wasting

your time yeah like what what what good

is it if you made something incredible

and no one watches it yeah so you do

need to pass it through the filter of is

anyone going to choose to watch this

yeah I'll even take it step further back

yeah and use your own example is uh

where are my hungry people at is there

anyone even hungry oh yeah exactly

should I even be making food true right

so again it goes back to this

understanding of the audience of what

they need yeah because it is sort of

fundamental when you think about it um

you're right to your point the order of

operations is wrong even even

manufacturing it's like hey I thought of

making this product I think it's a great

idea maybe it solves my problem but I

don't know about other people but I'm

just going to make it yeah spend money

on a die you know manufacturing you make

a minimum quality quantity and you take

it to Market yes and no one buys it

surprise surprise you know you should

first find out where the demand is yeah

so one I mean a couple things I pitched

whoop for example just to give you a

sense um two formats that came to my

mind

were um the first is called pressure

tested and you know we went straight to

a thumbnail en title that we felt like

we're super super clickable but the idea

is to bring these professional athletes

or just great athletes I don't have to

professional and have them step into um

you know those moments that are pretty

high stress whether it's a second left

on a shot clock and you're shooting a

free throw or you know a boxer walking

up to the ring right before you know

those moments that are are hard to

understand how a professional like

mentally you know physiologically is

responding to them and there's Mass

curiosity I think amongst all of us like

what makes us different than a

professional athlete and being able to

actually put them in those moments

compared to just your regular everyday

people and see how they're because whoop

gives you all that data right as they

step up to these to these challenges

what is happening physiologically that

is or or maybe not different but

different than your everyday person who

you know I would imagine is sweating

bullets and heart rate is skyrocketing

and so giving giving that inside scoop

it also highlights the the product in a

amazing way like how much Insight you

get from the [ __ ] product but then pulls

the curtain open

to um the millions of people who are

just fascinated by professional athletes

and like what makes them different um

yeah or and sometimes I think that we're

holding up a mirror and we think am I

like Cristiano way yeah you know like

true oh you know he does it like this so

do I that's cool so you know we're

attracted to that it's true or it's

aspirational it 100% I mean if if you

saw Cristiano going for you know a free

kick or whatever penalty kick and you

see his heart rate going to whatever 160

you're like oh he's just like me like

yeah you know you you might think he's

cool as a bird or whatever you know just

it I think I think it bring makes

athletes even more relatable as well

yeah um actually I just saw a little

clip of that movie you're making in my

head which is Cristiano does it you see

what happens and then the you know

average dude does it too and he sees

himself doing it as well as Cristiano

but we see how actual it actually is

right right right and like the delusion

in his mind or the Distortion sure and

he's just like yes and we're just like

oh yeah not quite buddy yeah got a few

years so how do you do get to there

could be fun yeah yeah so I had a few

few ideas for them that you know I broke

down the what the packaging would look

like and how it would happen and all

that and I I think there's um that's

generally the approach that I think

anybody should take is just like concept

to quickly understanding how this would

be a must-watch for for a bunch of

people yeah and you're right you kind of

put it into these categories of you know

Mystique or suspense you know

Cliffhanger you know whatever there's

these categories right and you're using

the word format you know that's a TV

term right you know uh Survivor which is

a a format show yeah uh it's a

competition show that's the format yeah

exactly I like we you know we tend to go

to formats instead of just like one-off

videos because they have repeatability

to them you can swap in a VAR like hot

ones is arguably the the the most

successful YouTube format of all time um

unless you count Mr Beast stuff but you

know uh it's an interview show hot wings

and it doesn't matter how it arguably

has infinite lifespan because you just

swap in for a new celebrity that you

care about right and you see them die

over hot wings like it's it it has a

long long lifespan yeah um so I I

gravitate to formats a bit more yeah

smart Okay so recapping what you said

you know think in terms of format think

about you know the audience that you're

seeking to serve you know what is there

I'm starving moment that you can solve

exactly uh uh order of operations it's

can you show the thumbnail solving the

problem that you're thinking about

solving in a you know whatever size

pixel that is small mhm you know it's

small right exactly so often times the

problem is the complexity of the idea

can't be distilled into something simple

yeah and that's usually that's that has

in my in case usually what I kill an

idea for for that reason is like we we

thought it was a really cool like an

example of this was

at Jubilee we we made a a show called um

reverse relationship which was like what

what would happen if we brought um like

blind date people together and instead

of having them go through this order of

sequences um that you normally go

through in dating like first aid and

then whatever you we reverse it all so

actually the very first time they see

each other is under an altar that's and

then and then do you or don't yeah yeah

and then they they kiss without seeing

each other then we put them in a bed

then they meet you know they meet each

other's families and yeah we did it and

it was really fascinating um but the

series didn't do as well uh because we

could like it was it's kind of a it was

complicated to describe in the thumbnail

on title like how do you you know take

that entire sequence of events and make

it into one simple thing um it was

difficult it was difficult we we gave it

our best shot but I the pitch ping uh

it's Benjamin button's meets 90day

fiance exactly exactly it's very

difficult to describe in like because

you only get a you get oftentimes a

millisecond like that's so so I have

these tests for what makes a good

thumbnail and one of them is the

millisecond test like I I quite

literally just look at it and look away

and do you immediately know what it is

like it's a billboard yeah if you have

to sit and read it and like think for a

few seconds it's not a good it's not

good like it needs to be very instantly

clear yeah well I mean it's a bit of an

indictment on me I think this is a huge

area of improvement for us in our

Channel yeah um me makes massive massive

impact it does yeah yeah because people

have choices yeah and they are swiping

left and swiping right and swiping up

and down you know yep and another thing

we do is um we take a screenshot there's

a tool now that does this but we we used

to do it manually we take a screenshot

of the YouTube homepage with all the

thumbnails it gives you you know as

options and then we take the thumbnail

that we thought that would be good and

we we put it on top of one on and and we

we ask ourselves like how much does it

stand out relative to the Sea of

thumbnails that are being presented yeah

um so we do a couple tests like that I

love that is everyone else is green and

then okay so we need to go the opposite

of green which is yellow or purple or

you know on this yeah yeah and and but

see the thing is you won't know what the

homepage of the person who's getting

sered your video will look like so you

just have to kind of

you know if you if you place it in in

front of like 12 different thumbnails

the really the question is like is it

distinct enough in general that it would

stand out amongst you know whatever 20

different thumbnails um and it's a

helpful test yeah so I still didn't hear

you say how long you give the great idea

before you pet eight so we we tend to do

a um pilot series of for for our formats

and it's usually so basically after

three episodes

we we we cut it if it if it doesn't hit

our bar after three episodes but it's

very important to like three episodes I

know yeah so you do you do need to know

what you're looking for though to to

know whether to cut it or not like it's

short for us because we we've just you

know comparatively we can compare you

know just have all this data that we've

if we can look at three episodes within

a series be like yeah this seems like

it's just a dud yeah views or engagement

or both it's it's actually um well us

views is a um is more of a symptom of

the only two things that matter well

there's more than that but the two

needle movers are um clickthrough rate

and then you know average view duration

basically so is this concept interesting

enough for someone to click into it

right and then once they're there does

it is it engaging enough to keep them

watching yeah those two things are

arguably 90% of what matters on YouTube

yeah and then you know we look at some

other stuff like just the comments and

you know what percentage of people

subscribe to the channel after they

watch just little things like that but

those two those first two are by far the

biggest so if you get to three and it's

not the CTR and the uh average view

duration is not up to par and by the way

that assumes you you tweaked between

each

means you learned from you you saw the

first video and you saw what went wrong

like you looked at the CTR and the view

Direction like ah okay here's our

hypothesis on how we can make it better

the second time and you make that change

you remix it oh yeah yeah yeah you if

you don't remix then that's not a fair

you know you can't it' be hard to cut

after three you need to you need to

change something significant about it in

the second trial and if it happens again

you change it again and it's still after

three iterations of um looking at the

data and trying to improve it does not

work that's usually a time we we cut

yeah and how are you posting these are

they just published live or are you

publishing them sort of unlisted and

then no yeah just post it live okay

so let me tell you a quick story yeah

tell me I had this video um it's been

about four years and um you know she was

a bestselling author name is Mel Robbins

she's got a really popular podcast now

mhm I thought the interview was great it

I cut it down from like 90 minutes this

was like a 15minute clip just like

highlight like the best I posted that

and I thought it was just

excellent completely fell flat uh now I

didn't really tweat the thumbnail I was

guilty of what you just explained you

know content first thumbnail

afterthought um bummed out forgot about

it and I don't know 12 months goes by

mhm and I went back just by Happ inance

to see that video and it it had a few

hundred I'm talking about a few hundred

views I mean pathetic you know we have

just under

400k Subs right now anyway it just

completely deud I thought you know what

the hell yeah not fair um 12 months

later I go back and that thing has got

400k that's

awesome three months after that it was

up over 2 million that's incredible

another three or six months after that

is up at 4 million so must have I'm

guessing in her uprise or no like was it

because of her or no I don't know so

this is what I'm asking it's like

man I think you have to your advice is

solid yeah but I also think you have to

be careful because in my experience

sometimes it could be my own fault

either I didn't tag it right with a

metadata or descriptions it took a while

for the algorithm to find it and serve

it to the right people who loved it yeah

that happens eventually that does happen

a lot you know so well I can't say a lot

but that happens it definitely happens

um we have a pl we had plenty of flops

that um well yeah initially started as

flops and then because YouTube is all

like forever from the moment you publish

it to Forever in time trying to find

somebody who wants to watch that right

um so it it you know um it has a a

chance at life for sure um you know for

us it's

like not we're not saying we would

delete those videos after we gave them

you know those three three videos but

when you have only limited amount of

things you can make um we're we're we're

trying to optimize for things that we

feel um don't you know don't

need I don't know 24 months to find an

audience kind of thing so um it often

times is just kind of PRI a priority of

like trying to get closer or faster to

to some success yeah and that's another

good example of how strategy really

shouldn't change if you have a solid

strategy the TAC tactics can change even

the goals can change but the you want to

change tactics not strategy yeah that's

true and I would say there were there's

a couple partners of ours that um I so

convinced in the the format like the

concept and how it would work for their

um um their channel that we did try it a

few times but um and it didn't quite get

the

traction but like I I kind of was so

obsessed about the format that I I just

felt that they weren't quite executed in

in in the potent like that the potential

that the format had and so it's like

let's just let's let's keep trying yeah

um and that's you know if you have that

conviction that can still you know you

should still pursue that thing I think

as well yeah yeah and in Pros like Jimmy

I've heard him say you know it's a

ridiculous amount of time and money

invest those thumbnails yeah I mean I

think they're changing like hundreds of

times yeah he uh even during upload MH

he I think he spends I don't know um I

think the figure was like 30 or 40 grand

um per like videos thumbnails just

designing you know a hundred variations

and then doing an internal test on what

they think asking other people he

respects like what thumbnail is the best

and then yeah once you upload YouTube

now has the internal AB test so you can

upload three options and it will trial

and tell you which one's the best but

prior to that tool being launched there

were third party tools that allowed you

to rotate thumbnails I mean infinitely

like you could put 100 and SW swap them

every two hours or whatever it is and um

I think at that at that point it's a

like it's a little too much to do that

but um I do think AB testing is is

pretty important though yeah and I think

the message there too for just

underscore is like if if Jimmy Donaldson

has to spend 40 Grand per thumbnail and

he doesn't get it right the first time

out of the gate right if you're not

getting it right it's okay that's true

yeah you're right that's true yeah I

mean he's got to go through dozens

hundreds of iterations before he finds

the one all right you know take a breath

it's all right yeah that's true it's a

good point I mean we were just sitting

back you know chopping it up reminiscing

about the good old days and all that you

know tracking my roots where I came from

and where I'm

[Music]

going but like I say

man always said

it it's not about the destination

n it's all about the jour

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YouTube Transcript:Here's Why Brands Fail on Youtube

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Here's Why Brands Fail on Youtube