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Here's Why Brands Fail on Youtube
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actually yeah pretty much every pivotal
like moment in my career was based on
like some hypothesis that I committed to
seeing through you know you're going up
against all these companies spending
billions of dollars on ads and the
brands that devote to making original
content on YouTube which is the largest
watch platform on the on the planet uh
will develop for themselves like massive
brand loyalty from audiences that
actually choose to watch their
content I'm Ryan hasimi founder and CEO
of snowball I built the business at
Jubilee media grew it to 14 million
subscribers and 5 billion views and
you're on behind the brand with Brian
Elliott everyone welcome to another
episode of the show Ryan pleasure
welcome thank you uh I usually ask my
guest how did you get this
job
um
well uh it took a long time of just
being embedded in in YouTube land for
for many many years right when it
started I was obsessed with it and um
spent all my free time on YouTube and
then eventually it turned into a
full-time career building an actual
Channel on YouTube um and we were I
think early days in building a media
company strictly YouTube focused and the
learnings of that I think were pivotal
and actually now launching an agency
that helps Brands figure out how to do
YouTube I love it uh we were talking off
camera that you're from St Louis that's
right um YouTube It's
2005 on that Universal
Pictures
um $50 million budget you know marketing
the Studio's biggest titles at the time
walk in the red carpet with movie stars
uh this little website comes out and it
changes the game like overnight you're
thinking this is a big deal well maybe
it was 12 months cuz then got acquired
by Google um where were you in 2005 what
were you doing I was in uh High School
MH yeah and uh we uploading so I it took
me probably about a year and a half well
so I started uploading after I think it
was a might have been a Wall Street
Journal article or some article that
came out that was saying um YouTubers
were making six figures um and you know
that's like nothing right now but um
that was to to me at the time
mind-blowing as a high schooler cuz
that's just where I thought people were
having fun um and it was after I read
the article that I started making
content on YouTube so I actually started
a channel was called the prize Channel
and um realized I wasn't like that
entertaining I didn't know what to do so
I I created a like a hub where we would
bring YouTubers together to collaborate
in this one channel and we'd like do
giveaways to Their audience um and I was
the sort of host of that prize Channel
and that's where I that channel then led
me down the path to where I am now
because I got to collaborate with a lot
of big YouTubers at the time and then
reconnected with them many years later
after I went you know to school college
and got a real job yeah and then circled
back to YouTube yeah it's so interesting
you know you talk about that getaway
giveaway strategy yeah that's basically
what Mr Beast does that PID true wash
that's his whole shtick yeah it's a
whole shtick well and leveling up
correct how you do it yeah outdoing
himself every single correct yeah which
I don't know how he's going to make that
scale we'll see right I think his Amazon
special is out this week it is yeah yeah
it is interesting um and so now I think
I'm thinking back to like old school
YouTubers I'm thinking like smos right
and like Jeff Marbles and like yeah uh
there was a guy named he called himself
Sexy Phil s Sexy Phil he he's now well
Philip def Franco is his oh Phil def
Franco yeah so that was that was my
first collab very very early days with
with him yeah um and then a couple other
guys this guy named keep the heat and
keep the heat Alex is who I then
reconnected with many years later to
pull me back in to YouTube so so cool so
you were in front of the camera I was
yeah and you're were just recording with
like a SLR or something yeah oh and what
was it I don't even remember what camera
it was I think it yeah it was it was um
I think it was a camcore yeah just
whatever my parents had yes so well well
because if we're going to like earmark
that time period I mean 2006 was iPhone
1 right I didn't even have an iPhone at
the time yeah yeah crazy right and a lot
of things started to sort of cascade it
was a whole I think shift from digital
into social yes uh 2007 Twitter launches
it South by Southwest every goes nuts
right that was such a big deal I
remember like this watershed moment when
like the world was suddenly connected
Twitter just took off like crazy
right
um Facebook was just coming out of the
colleges just a couple years out maybe
three years out two years out 2004 05 06
those are big years for Mark Zuckerberg
waiting through all his problems trying
to figure out um man it's back of the
day good times long yeah a long time ago
yeah and yet we're so it's like it's
been forever but it feels like still so
early in in this you know sort of Tide
shift that's happening I agree I agree
it feel like almost like everything and
nothing has changed right um so how did
you evolve the plan you you you
recognize that maybe you're not Phil the
Franco you're great on camera or quick
with the words um were you doing all the
editing too I was yeah yeah yeah so you
know your self talk just like all of
usbody um doing this as a oneman band in
bedroom yes uh how did you evolve the
planet how did you see what were you
seeing at the time
uh I think it was just the level and
still today why I love YouTube so much
the level of uh depth of of relationship
that you have with your audience is just
un unlike any platform I've seen and the
fandom the you know ability to actually
leverage your audience to get them to
convert in whatever you know way you
have in mind just seemed unparalleled
and there's a very sticky audience they
keep coming back they're very engaged in
the comment section yeah it it it felt
like at the time and I don't know well
we're close there with maybe with Mr
Beast and folks like him but it felt
like at the time like these are going to
be the next you know celebrities um
that's maybe my first like aha moment
was just how much people cared about the
folks that they're watching on YouTube
yeah I just I didn't see anything else
like that yeah we should also
mention uh Marquez mkvd we should have
mentioned I Justine we should mentioned
Casey nistad those are the Casey nistad
years kind of 2008 to that's right to
2014 like the Heyday yeah he was
instrument yeah he changed a lot of
Storytelling like what was possible on
YouTube and I think he brought in a
whole yeah I think YouTube owes a lot to
to Casey actually um he brought in a lot
of Open the Eyes I think of storytellers
filmmakers Etc that oh this can actually
be a PL it's not just for fun and you
know vlogging or whatever yeah and and
brand deals too like way he did this
brand integration you know that iconic
Nike SPoT that I think he did he tells
that story I think they gave him 25,000
bucks yeah and um I don't know it's I
think it's probably over 30 million
views at this point so yeah he crushed
it for for the brands he worked with for
sure yeah and so where did it take you
then so you you You' being a pivot at
some point yeah oh yeah
um
so it wasn't yeah it wasn't linear I I
I at some point gave up on YouTube from
myself and like okay cool that was like
a fun experiment and then I went to
college and studied finance and uh
economics and then went into um Finance
full-time as a career yeah so doing
investment research you know numbers guy
numbers yeah recommending stocks all
that stuff for clients and um I actually
really enjoyed that but
then I was a little bit I think just
working in a corporate environment you
know even though I love the subject I I
just very quickly learned that I guess
I'm just wired a little differently cuz
it just felt Soul crushing even with the
topic I cared about yeah so and then as
I was beginning to feel that uh one of
the YouTubers who I collaborated with in
high school reached out to me I was like
oh hey you're in business now awesome um
there's like hundreds of problems in
this industry still baby there's massive
opportunity here are all the problems
I'm saying here are like all the ways I
feel like they could be solved but I
have no no I have no business background
I don't know how to you know actualize
any of this like would you want to get
involved and so um I did I would I would
Moonlight I would just I'd come home
from the the investment job and then
from whatever 5: till midnight he and I
would would work together and eventually
that thing we were doing was was making
enough money for me to quit my my job
and uh at the time we were trying to
solve uh Creator collaborations like one
of the major ways you grew as a Creator
was just uh finding another Creator and
sort of cross-pollinating your your
audiences together and collaborating but
there wasn't a great way so if you were
in St Louis for example there wasn't a
great way actually no way really to be
like okay who else is in St Lewis that
makes YouTube videos that I could just
do a collab with yeah it was very
difficult to find likeminded creators
and so we were trying to solve that
problem um we first created a like
physical community we would host events
for YouTubers get sponsors to pay for
the events and then we you know started
making uh an app and it was like
LinkedIn at the time for for exclusively
for creators so that that pulled me back
into the world and in in some way what
was it called Rise N that's what it
called Rise N yeah you're like behance
no no nothing like that yeah no it's um
it's dead now but um it was it was very
it was very cool um and then while I was
doing that I got connected to
Jason Jason uh started Jubilee Jubilee
media with this vision of like
creating a mission First Entertainment
Company this was at the time this is
when uh was the first Trump election and
there was just massive division
happening I mean yeah we were just we
were just seeing so much
polarization and um Jason had been doing
with Jubilee he'd been doing nonprofit
for a while like trying to use media to
raise funds for clean water or sex
trafficking yeah and then the vision be
became bigger it was like how can we
affect culture and be the antithesis to
all this polarization so launch turned
Jubilee project which was the nonprofit
into Jubilee media uh for-profit startup
and right at that time he asked me to
come you know would you be interested in
building out this business and so um
said bye to rise 9 joined him at Jubilee
it was just like four or five of us uh
and then yeah came a you know Mass
roller coaster of this is one of the
best times of my life but that then set
off this you know Domino of being really
in YouTube yeah yeah yeah so weing on
this you know um you think this is the
best time or the worst time to jump into
to become a Creator Creator game um
I think it's the best time yeah I
mean what I would say
is it you know creators oftentimes when
they start they have they they're two in
their heads um and they ask themselves
like oh how do I be like XYZ Creator and
they end up just sort of copying you
know uh other creators and not finding
their own voice what makes them unique
yeah and I think if you're trying to
just be like I want to be the the next
what ever and just kind of copy other
people's styles that I would say maybe
not the best time for you there's just a
thousand people playing the copycat game
but if you have a distinct voice and you
have something unique you want to bring
to YouTube there is always always room
for that and I would also say like I've
been pleasantly
surprised like the amount of niches
within YouTube that you can be a uh lead
Creator in you know uh car excavation
gold mining I mean there's like I my
mind has just been blown over the years
by how many creators uh in the different
crazy niches that I didn't even know
existed yeah are killing it yeah yeah
it's true uh the wheels are turning out
I have so
many thoughts about what you just said
there's a lot there um I want to unpack
it just a little bit so I agree I think
you know the critics with would say well
everything's already kind of been done
sure and then the people who are fearful
or have that scarcity mindset they're
thinking oh AI is just going to and then
fill in the blank right um I feel the
opposite yeah I feel like you know um
yes there's a lot of dupes out there
people are going to create faceless
avatars that use AI to Parrot their
favorite we're seeing that with
thumbnail design even you know at that
level like people see a thumbnail design
that works and like all of a sudden
every
thumbs look the same so exactly you
always have to be pivoting and be out in
front well on that note if I can I would
say actually what we're seeing for
example with um clients and even with um
some creators like I that I Mentor now
like there's just these cycles that
happen on YouTube so uh the
beastify colors and William exaggerated
faces like that's
actually beginning to die a bit and
we're seeing like um creators who have
extremely minimal yes you know super
simple concept thumbnails are actually
now standing out more because it's just
now different than all the copy copycat
type stuff so yeah yeah the pendulum
swings back and forth right exactly um
just when you thought you had it figured
out it's like or you know even they
change the algorithm yeah uh let's talk
about that for a second have you seen
that change I mean in the beginning
you'd have a certain amount of
subscribers you could Bank on you know
10% 20% at times of that population
getting notified when you upload right
and now you'll be lucky if it's 1%
that's true that's true it's a drag yeah
yeah that so I would say that that's
probably the
biggest algorithmic change um ever that
you know from the biggest transition
that I think a lot of creators uh
friends of mine you know went through a
lot of pain exactly right is that if you
built your subscri early days if you
built your
subscribers your videos would just get
surfed to them because that's you know
that's why they click subscribe well
that's what they told us correct yeah
the point yeah yeah exactly now um I
will say I'll maybe credit to to YouTube
is that like after this change not much
has CH has changed but now YouTube
prioritizing what is going to get us the
most watch time on our platform yeah um
is is is simply saying so if you have
subscribers it they do actually use your
subscribers at first as like a testing
ground right like do your subscribers
even like this video and they compare it
you know they're doing a lot of
comparative uh stuff and if your
subscribers seem to like your video a
lot then it will start to spread you
know but it's it gone to the days where
it's just yeah you're you're 100,000 sub
subscribers are all going to be watching
the video you made it's a now it's a
small subset of them are tested uh with
once it get uploads and then if it does
well it'll proliferate from there yeah
yeah um when you're saying you know it's
gone from like overproduced thumbs to
like under produced I think the name
that comes to mind do you know Sam silic
yeah of course oh yeah that's a classic
bodybuilder like not not even like zero
effort in his pack in his like thumbnail
and stuff yeah you know he's got the
road mic clipped to his hat you know
it's all dark there's no production he's
just holding a camera up in his car
sometimes yeah I my so I would
say that's an interesting case study for
me because
um a lot of people who saw that and even
like folks in the you know YouTube space
were like oh this is like that packaging
is where everything is headed so let's
do more let's try to do Sam silic style
right I would say like not so fast I
guess um you know he developed a sort of
cult-like following yeah
where people really wanted to go super
deep with him and they really like the
raw authentic I'm not even trying I'm
just being myself and you know it's
almost like he's succeeding despite his
lack of effort on the packaging I
wouldn't say that it's because of his
you know minimal packaging um but
on that same note though we are seeing
though the more simple in concept the
less you know vibrant colorful poppy
thumbnails actually are working a little
better right now yeah this is maybe a
good time for me to talk about brand
this series is called behind the brand
people come and listen and watch I think
to learn how to build their brand from
the experts who are doing it um I've
asked probably 500 plus people this
question uh what is a brand and and I'll
kind of couch that or give some context
around that I think Sam is true to his
brand and that's why whatever it ends up
looking like is why it's being well
received exactly and so the answer to
like what should I do on the creative
side is you know who is your audience
yeah who are youh so uh so how do you
because I want to understand too like
how you think about brand but I also
think of you know how you maybe position
the snowball brand yeah yeah that's a
great Point um I think what you said is
100% accurate
uh
brand is to me
basically the outward expression of like
what you are trying to do as a company
you know it sometimes you could say it's
like the embodiment of your mission or
Vision but you know I think where it
gets a little um muddied is is sort of
when you add the the uh traditional sort
of branding element to it like brand
strategy
and that I think is you know like how
our um what's our Aesthetics our colors
or Vibes all that stuff that to me
doesn't matter as much I think it's
um when we look at what often times
people are drawn to especially on
YouTube for example it truly is like
authenticity that's like the name of the
game and so for me uh good branding is
is um pushing past all the
administrative and like you know
basically the BS and just asking
yourself like how can we
fully embody what we stand for as a as a
company in everything we do um that's
that to me is is is branding because it
it shows up in everything you put out if
that if if you actually try to to live
by that yeah I think that tracks with
what I've heard too I had my two cents
you know I think back uh you know
literal like in you know Wild West you
know they're putting a brand on a horse
you know it's it's the RL ranch or you
know whatever yeah yeah you know that is
a literal brand you can identify that
that is your property but that's not
what we're talking about here cuz a
brand is not your logo It's Not Your
Mark it's it's not even your color
palette your right your legal Bible but
what you can and cannot say all that
stuff I think is window dressing exactly
it's important yeah it's important uh
because it helps communicate what you're
trying to do but you know Above All Else
a brand is distinct M and a brand is
something I think people are willing to
stand in line for right pay a premium
for that's right so it's like you know I
go to Costco and there's like a bottle
of ibuprofen you know the size of like a
pickle barrel uh and it's like $8 right
or I can buy the Advil right next to it
for $500 I don't care right about the
generic brand right I don't need to buy
the name brand Advil because it's the
same in medicine so I buy the notand
because it does the same thing right and
so I'm not willing to pay a premium for
Advil because it doesn't matter right
it's indistinguishable yeah I agree I I
think the window dressing as you as as
you called it is unfortunately where it
seems like most companies get lost in
The Branding like like um it's almost
like they use the window dressing as
just kind of checking boxes and and and
they're not really um they're not really
asking ourselves like how do we
maximize the the presence of our like
Mission Vision like why people even like
us in the first place how do we maximize
that it it all gets watered down by the
like what you're saying like oh we can't
say that or you know just let's tweak
tweak this put this there it's just I
think it just is a is a you know not not
a good exercise yeah well it is in some
way all part of it so another thing I
was thinking is that a brand is a short
hand for what you stand for it's what
people
say about you when you're not in the
room yeah and so therefore you know you
have these best laid plans you you know
you create this brand you put it out
there in the world and then uh your part
is done to a certain degree right you
got to walk the talk right do what you
promise to do but then people have their
own interpretation I'm thinking I saw
this spot on the uh is it AES you know
um that high luxury bag brand right and
they have these bags that are like over
$100,000 in the piece right but uh you
know price is a story but also uh that
exclusivity the fact that no you cannot
have it you're right is also part of
their
brand uh this is rare this is special
this is handmade to the nth degree and
and that all goes into the brand
exercise too no no we're not making a
you know 100,00 of these this is like
the you know the Ferrari there's it's
numbered right limited and that's part
of the brand too so agreed you know you
can have lots of different brand
strategy yep if you're uh you know
someone like Walmart you're the lowcost
producer right if you're someone like
AES you know you can expect to wait and
not get what you want and then
eventually pay way more if expected
right and that's and it it it's funny
because it often it's a way to express
our own identity oh yeah by what we
choose to purchase yeah what we choose
to prioritize a purchase cuz if I'm
going to buy a bag like that what does
that say about me right I'm a person of
means I'm not in a hurry right I care
about hand
craftsmanship I care about social proof
or status you know yeah exactly so
branding is so important I agree and
you're in the strategy business so let's
break down what strategy is um because I
think strategy is your thesis I don't
think it's your goal or the tactics
I think it's more of your I think it's
more of a uh an Essence your thesis of
your how to go about something but let
me hear it from you yeah
um uh there's I forgot the guy's name um
but there's a book that I read that
informed I think my opinion on this is
called uh play to win and um it's
essentially what you said which is the
strategy is essentially um to use your
word an actual thesis a hypothesis
on how you're going to achieve what you
you know set out to achieve um it's not
the the planning it's not the you know
um administrative like oh we need to
hire 20 people we need to you know th th
that all those things are sort of a
byproduct of your your strategy yeah and
so I to to your point I do think a lot
of people oftentimes don't have a well
thought out or robust enough strategy
yeah and they just kind of move into the
to the sort of planning oftentimes like
this they called strategic planning
which I think is a a misnomer um you got
to have a very clear strategy your your
plan on how you actually um you know set
out to win what you're after yeah and
then comes all the you know like what do
we need to execute on I agree I think
people
conflate uh tactics and goals mhm they
also conflate strategy with goals or
strategy with tactics
this is you know what we're going to do
no no no no like that's not strategy
those are tactics right uh I like
biographies uh was reading George
Washington's biography lately it's is
super interesting wow uh just as an
aside so George Washington's strategy is
fascinating uh he you know I I knew
nothing really about the Revolutionary
War even his thing but like and I could
talk for three hours on this but um it
seems like George Washington's strategy
he
knew he knew the cards he had to play
and they weren't good cards it's this
rack tag you know American Army against
the most significant military force in
the world of the time especially if it's
the Navy the British Navy like
unbelievable power you know and then
their dominance across the world but you
know so you think about this kind of
David and GLI story right but George
Washington knew what he was up against
yeah so what was his strategy fight him
head on no fight you know uh lining up
the way that they did no he needed to go
Rogue he needed to go gorilla uh and in
fact George
Washington his greatest I think
strengths were in these strategies to
like do little attacks and then Retreat
so he would like go and engage and then
he would run away that's funny and
Escape because he didn't have the means
sure not not enough ammo you know the
people were starving they were wearing
like their you know cloth around their
feet frozen to death and then you know
that um famous picture he's Crossing the
Delaware too right again that's a
strategy about trying to catch the enemy
off guard yeah freezing cold fog
everywhere right tumultuous Waters I
mean yeah the strategy is so important
and one of my mentors Seth Goden said
something that stuck with me he said
you know it doesn't matter how fast
you're going if you're going in the
wrong direction there no good right so
like strategy understanding you know how
you're going to go about it that thesis
is so important and often will dictate
the outcome right I agree have you seen
that then in your own path I think so I
mean I even just in launching snowball I
think it was entirely launched on a on a
thesis um
and and had no idea what the tactics
were going to be um and to
me actually yeah pretty much every
pivotal like moment in my career was
based on like some hypothesis that I
committed to seeing through and
[Music]
um I'll say for snowball for example you
know we in in this world of like
complicated marketing you know it's like
to borrow from the George Washington
example um you know you're going up
against all these companies spending
billions of dollars on ads and um you
know think about all the different you
know Billboards campaigns TV
spots my hypothesis uh was that the
brands that devote to making original
content on YouTube which is the largest
watch platform on the on the planet uh
will develop for themselves like massive
brand loyalty from audiences that
actually choose to watch their content
not just like you know ads sprayed in
front of them right um and so now I'm on
this you know I don't know how however
long it's going to take but I'm on this
mission to sort of uh see that through
and and play that out yeah so how are
you helping them be their authentic self
to be true to their brand yeah you know
because you're right uh every single
successful
YouTuber has their own brand personal
brand yeah you know we mentioned Phil de
Franco you know I know what Phil's brand
is you know it's uh that form of news
yeah uh non-traditional news story um
with a lot of wit a lot of wit yeah um
Sam so back to Sam Sam I
think I think um I think strategy
requires a ton of
empathy and when I use the word empathy
like a firm understanding of
who you're dealing with at any given
time yeah so it could be your audience
you know if you have personas or in the
case of George Washington he
knew his team yeah not great yeah up
against a formidable enemy and so he had
his strategy planned accordingly right
and so I think you know back to Sam Sam
was like [ __ ] it man uh I'm bodybuilding
you guys want to come along with me I'm
G show you how I'm doing it right and
it's not uh you don't need the masses
for that right you just need the right
number of people comp care that's true
happens to be a lot but you know MVP is
this name This Acronym that's thrown
around in startup it's it's also kind of
like minimum viable audience sure like
that's true who should you be focused on
who do you care about true how are you
helping these creators do that yeah so
from a the brand perspective as much as
I you know don't love getting getting
stuck in window dressing what we
obviously our starting point for a lot
of them is to understand what they
believe their brand to be yeah so we're
not we're oftentimes not like dictating
their brand by any means it's it's a
full understanding of what they um have
come to realize about their brand today
from like customer personas to why
people care about their brand and um we
always start things off with like a two
three hour Deep dive and just trying to
understand everything about their brand
but then to your point on like minimum
viable
audience what our creative team then
does is create a a format sort of road
map of Concepts types of videos that we
feel can bring that whatever we just
learn from that brand what makes their
brand important brings that to life in
an interesting entertaining way that
people would actually want to watch and
we won't know like we we're oftentimes
um pivoting along the way right we make
content that the brand is excited about
that we're excited about but then based
on what we learn we're constantly
evolving over time yeah can we do like a
little uh live case study there give me
your feedback we'll see how this goes
yeah so let's go back to Hermes okay
um we know who they are we know what
they stand for yeah we know about know
how much a burka bag costs um what could
they be doing on YouTube
so what's the strategy there's a huge
Niche
for um so as actually subreddit I found
uh I don't know seven eight years ago
but it's it's blown up um it's it's it's
called Artisan videos is a massive Niche
for artisanal like craftsmanship like
how it's made MH yeah and you know one
of the for example uh a a brand that
that there was a spot an episode of a
video I think uh Singapore Airlines did
which was like how Singapore Airlines
makes I think I don't remember the
numbers but like 200,000 meals for their
first class A Day right yeah and you're
you know for any person that's
interesting right you're like oh how
yeah that is a challenge how do they do
that and then they walk you through the
process and obviously it's premium it
looks you know the food that they're
showing how they develop the menu and
how much care they put into it and um
you're you're in it just for the How
It's Made thing but along the way you're
you're observing how much care they put
into it yeah and similarly with Hermes
like there's a whole I think there's an
entire world around their um their
design process right like how these
$100,000 bags are actually designed from
the to the manufacturing process you
talk about the handcrafted to the nth
degree like people want to see that and
there is really interest like my
hesitation is typically Brands uh make
it too commercial like it almost feels
like you're watching a commercial right
but if they can um have sort of uh take
a much more authentic approach more
native to how I think YouTube content is
I I think there's entire like whole set
of series for a brand like arz to
showcase the amazing amount of work
going into their products but also then
the takeaway when people watch it are
like that is worth $100,000 yeah like so
it's you know pulling them into to your
world and getting people even more
excited about how these bags are put
together and made yeah do you think
about um like personas and like the
target audience you do targeting yeah we
do yeah I mean often times they so the
brand will present us their their
personas usually like they' often times
have done like a ton of Consulting work
and you know they they they have
personas and they walk us through that
and then what we do is we kind of have
an exercise internally um we call it
sort of The Starving crowd exercise and
um it's it's based off of this guy named
Gary Halpert who um just I don't know if
this actually happened but the story
goes he was giving a lecture at a
university and was asking his
students um you we're going to open up
competing hamburger stands and I'll give
you guys whatever Advantage you want so
what do you want and people will be like
I want the best best quality ingredients
or cheapest you know source for um the
meat or whatever it is and he's like
cool I'll give you all that but I'm
still going to kill you guys because I
only want one thing and that's that my
audience is starving because I can sell
them anything um and that always stuck
with me and so usually the last exercise
we do with a brand is given all that
you've given us about your brand and
your your mission your vision your
personas ultimately like how can we
distill that down uh from a Content
perspective for the the set of people
who would be starving for the content
that you would be making yeah like that
they would just you know it's it
scratches a major itch that they have CU
that'll help you that'll help you
attract your initial audience a lot
easier it knows it sort of sets a path
so you're not making content aimlessly
as well right um and then over time that
like what you learn is sort of shapes
and Evol olves that but uh that's
generally where we start is with a
thesis around who your starving crowd is
and how do we make content that like
Wows them yeah yeah I think about that
young kid he's probably 10 or 11 by now
uh the kid who unwraps all the toys oh
is that Ryan Ry Ryan's World toy world
or whatever yeah yeah yeah yeah um you
know you look at that kind of video or
you look at um this your Singapore
Airline example so who do you think
that's for I have my idea who that's
aimed at uh I mean in a in a sense it
could it's watchable by anyone but
that's not the point right it's not it's
a it's aimed at certain people so who do
you think that that's AED at sing I
think I think the goal of that piece
whether this was intentional or not
is if you because a choice of an airline
like it sometimes feels like a commodity
right it's like who 100% yeah it's like
well I you know I'm just pick the
cheapest flight or whatever it is right
but and I think that's the opposite of
being a brand m is you become this logo
or quantity exactly there's no meaning
yeah exactly I mean even for me when I
think about how I purchase um there's
really only one like for me it's Delta
Airlines like if I can get a Delta
flight I'm going to prioritize that or
Jet Blue as an example um why is that uh
just because I've had really good
experiences it feels uh my flight
experiences have been great with them
yeah I like you know the professionalism
of their staff and um JetBlue often has
like modern and like their their planes
are equipped with everything I need um
and for Singapore Airlines I think when
you watch that
video what you want what you want your
consumer to be doing when they choose an
airline to purchase from is I I think
you want them to be thinking from an
experiential perspective as opposed to
just okay that one has the cheapest
price um and and you watch you you watch
from beginning to the the food actually
being
served you then have a significantly
greater appreciation for all the work
and sort of the bar for Quality that
Singapore Airlines puts in to actually
bring you that you know that food their
craft essentially yeah and so if it can
nudge someone in in that final decision-
making where it's like
sing you know they see like how can I
make my trip even better or uh I think
this would be a significantly better
14-hour flight yes I'll pay a little bit
more but I get that Singapore Airlines
experience like that's what that video
does it puts the buyer in that frame of
mind removing them from commodity status
a bit and into the experiential feeling
and brand and like you know quality that
that I think they want people to think
yeah yeah I I just keep going back I
mean I think that's a strategy and I
think I keep going back to empathy
because uh and I'm just guessing because
I don't know yeah Singapore Airlines I'm
guessing they take a lot of long flights
oh yeah right and so if you have your
you have sit in a plane for a long time
yeah one of the major things is comfort
food you know like just being hydrated
nutrition exactly having a good
experience um and traditionally airplane
food is [ __ ] right so
uh it sounds like what they're saying
without saying it in this show in tell
is like hey we know you're going to be
on plane for a long time right we know
the food is usually terrible y ours is
not right we're going to have a great
experience our um play attendant are
well dressed Y super polite you're going
to get one of those warm towels and then
you're going to have this amazing meal
and let us show how show how you would
uh it's made yeah that's see to me like
you know when when you say that the the
feeling that comes to my mind is for
Singapore Airlines what they're saying
is your vacation does not start when you
arrive to your to your location it
starts when you get on our plane yeah
like you actually get you enjoy that
that whatever 12-hour flight from some
departure to to land yeah and you know
especially if it's a long-distance
flight like those those often
are uh it can be 10 20% of your entire
vacation time yeah right so why not have
a really great experience getting to
your location yeah and I think that's
that's where um people with personal
Brands and the brands themselves really
need to live in that space you think
about a company like uber you know yes
they maybe trying to replace taxes but
it wasn't about getting from A to B it
was about convenience or like having
control over when and where you picked
up your car so in the same sense um
Singapore Airlines is uh they understand
their customer y the problem they've got
to to solve again you know back to your
example about I just want to find this
person who's starving right that's their
problem to solve they're hungry we have
no food we're going to fill fill that
whole yeah literally um and uh yeah
so strategy about empathy I agree yeah
um okay so snowball love the name what
is the snowball
brand still still a work in progress um
because we are like about seven eight
months old now um but the idea behind
snowball as a brand
is you know I think I'm just tired
especially my my you know I have I I
love Brands I I have um a lot of
favorite Brands and I go and look at
their their social content and it's
usually awful right um and and it kind
of bothers me um like they they're
Innovative Brands they're making
incredible um products
and you know nothing they're doing on on
social
matches how amazing I feel about their
brand let's talk them out in a
constructive way say we love your brand
but you're deing it up on social and
then maybe let's offer some suggestions
so toss out a couple that you think sure
I mean um someone I I I pitched uh the
other day or just talk I have like a
interview that we're trying to do with
him um uh whoop the this the fitness
band whoop so they I know will on it
Will's been on this has he amazing so I
I sent him and his chief of staff like a
proposal um like just offering value
only like look I love your brand um and
you guys are Innovative you have a long
life ahead of you but your content is is
is bad and you you're they're beginning
to invest in it more and so I gave them
uh a lot of thought starters on where
they can start with the content um they
have Cristiano Ronaldo and yeah they
have access to bun of homes and all
these guys yeah so I mean and and and
yet when you look at their their their
content so they have a really great
podcast with Will and and athletes yeah
but even then they're they're
undermining its success potential by not
putting enough effort into uh the
packaging like the thumbnail and title
is so critical on YouTube and I don't I
don't think they're doing a good job
with it um and so I gave them
suggestions on that as well but um for
them their their main the way they could
improve significantly is in the formats
like the what they actually make could
be significantly better um and I'm happy
to get into what I what I pitch them but
um well maybe not the pitch but like so
by formats you talking about like
vertical horizontal you're talking about
platform specific no mo mostly um like
maybe what we would call shows or you
know what series of content you should
make yeah
um creating series that actually embody
the uniqueness of their product but also
are fascinating to watch like my the
entire goal of snowball is is to help
awesome Brands make content people
actually want to watch like they choose
to watch so helping them pivot from you
know Uninvited interruptor right with
ads right to a Preferred Choice in
content yeah this is an advertorial for
whoop I've seen this a thousand times
they just want me to buy the the thing
yeah I mean people like those have their
places right but people are a little bit
tired of being sold too right and I the
the thesis that snowball is built on and
we actually launching a partnership a
research partnership with USC to to
measure some of this
but um if people actually seek out your
content and and choose to watch it and
it's entertaining to watch and you've
won their respect from a Content
perspective that's going to have massive
um I think brand lift brand Affinity
recognition way more than a cool I don't
know TV ad or Instagram ad or whatever
it is yeah um and so that's kind
of our brand is like the embodiment of
that and snowball is essentially you
know the Snowball Effect right we think
over time you play the long game this is
going to have massive it becomes a brand
moat for you mhm um everyone else is
doing whatever you're trying to do in
marketing right now very few people are
are trying to make really great organic
content very very few Brands uh and so I
I think it's the next 10 years of
differentiation for Brands is is this
yeah now that you mentioned it there was
an OG in the space and there's still the
OG but there's not many others you're
right and that's Red Bull yeah oh yeah
Red Bull is my wife works for Red Bull
okay yeah I mean they've been amazing
they've been the leader they get
it from like the very beginning yeah
it's it's it's it's funny because um
there's no product in that yeah I know I
know it's like
the you know they they most of their
investment when you look at like
Personnel and operations and all that
stuff it's it's it's mostly in the
manufacturing of the attention not not
you know like in fact I think they have
a lot of partner ship in the actual
producing of their of their be surprised
yeah but all of their attention goes
into the embodiment of the Red Bull you
know spirit in in in content and um I
think sometime yeah Red Bull is is is
tough because a lot of Brands look at
Red Bull and they're like well we're
just we're just not that like that's you
know we're not energy and caffeine and
you know we can't do that and I think I
think that's
unfortunately you know if if a brand
wants to put on do events or whatever
they're not going to look at Disneyland
and be like oh we can't we can't compete
with that it's just you're not trying to
do what Red Bull does what what Red Bull
does really really well is make content
that's true to their brand so the
question is just like what is a what is
great content that's true to your brand
it will look very different than what
Red Bull is doing you don't have to jump
off whatever they're doing you know deep
dive from space yeah to your point you
can you can't copy the strategy yeah
because that strategy can work for as
correct or for Mr Beast or for others
the other brand that comes in mind
that's doing it well is yeti uh yeah I
hear that one a lot like just super like
very authentic to the brand agreed I
agree yeah very I I'm trying to
find like because other when I work when
we're sort of talking to Brands and and
and closing deals with them often a
question I ask is like well what other
brands are are doing this well like it's
almost like they're looking for proof
that it can work right um and it the
list is very small it's very small um
yeah for us then that's big oper yeah
yeah exactly there will be I mean and
there are as we're talking to some of
them there will be brands that I
think want to be different and want to
sort of take um a leap and innovate with
with marketing with
branding and I think at my my gut is in
the next one to two years there will be
a sort of avalanche of
you know I can't call them follower
Brands but as they finally see ah this
is oh that's that's really cool um
there's just going to be a Title Wave of
Brands finally seeking to make good
organic content yeah I mean it's it's
speculating but I would say I have a
feeling I know why they are so stuck in
that rut L to hear yeah uh well lots of
different reasons
one the leaders ship is old school true
and they haven't done it before mhm
another reason is uh man it's sort of
like this crack Edition uh he uh
or a crack habit of paid media right
because you know if I if I know that my
row as is going to be three four seven
that's true well heck Ryan you know I
give you a dollar I get $3 back right
I'm going to do that all day long washer
and repeat and um that's true it's like
this addiction because it's measurable
whereas if you create this
series it's um it's more nebulous it's
you're building a brand you're not doing
advertising direct marketing that's
right that's right it this oftentimes
falls into you know if you look at like
marketing budgets and you have just sort
traditional marketing media dollars this
often is put in the sort of branding you
know category where it's um
harder to measure Roi yeah it's still in
their cost center though so they're
thinking well I'm G there's a cost
output you know where's the input it's
like you do a trade show okay the booth
cost
$220,000 you know we write you know uh
$30,000 worth of orders okay the the ROI
was 10K that's right um but that's not
how this works yeah so one one like one
of our clients is um atfs they're a um
large like SAS uh SEO tool
and I I really like how their mindset is
very forward thinking you would think
like what what does a what does a SAS
like technical B2B SAS company deserve
being on YouTube for like how do they
make boring you was very boring yeah um
tell me how to work in Abacus yeah yeah
it's it it does you just it's not a
natural fit and yet you know over the
past few months we we've evolved them
into storytellers on YouTube uh where
actually the point of the content it's
it's a little bit more uh wide appeal so
they're they're no longer looking to to
Target just straight technical SEO
people like folks in that space already
know about ATS sure their their whole
initiative now is how do we actually get
more people just open their eyes to what
SEO even is and that it's actually not
as complicated as to think and it can
have massive impact all that and so
we're shifting them more into
storytelling uh that can capture a wider
audience and in that storytelling it um
becomes sort of painfully obvious how
impactful SEO can be and it's working
quite well and what they do which I
think um is easier because they're sass
but they in their sign up flows they
just ask basically you know how did you
hear about us and and they see a pretty
interesting increase of number of times
people are clicking YouTube and so I
think there are ways to measure it and
in fact YouTube in the long run actually
can be extremely powerful from a
conversion perspective you have to you
have to earn the trust a little bit
first you don't go hard there but in the
long run it can actually be one of the
highest converting uh you know taking
your audience and having them convert to
your product it's I I believe it's
actually maybe you know one of the
highest Roi things you could do oh yeah
pretty to the choir I mean um direct
advertising and direct marketing has its
place you know uh when it's back to
school time and old Old Navy advertises
and my kid needs jeans yes exactly hey
I'm I'm in you know I'm right there I
need that so thanks for reminding me
with dinnerbell and oh there's a buy one
get one or a 30% off for limited time
great and I go get it problem is with
advertising it's like a shotgun blast
yes uh not everyone's ready to buy a new
pair of jeans for back to school school
right so a lot of that gets wasted yep
um but what you're saying is a brand
building is building trust it's it's
that people will wait in line around the
corner I remember like when the Supreme
store opened y was it five years ago
when that was a thing right uh man
snaked around the corner merchandise is
gone it's gone right and you know you
felt lucky that you got it that's right
um I'm hearing rumors that YouTube is
testing
taking away uh views and likes and all
that are you hearing the same thing
um I I mean I've heard like over the
past few years I've I've heard that a
few times I don't know if that's
actually going to happen um I feel like
we could get there and here's why um I
feel like YouTube isn't competing with
Tik Tok even though you might say oh you
know YouTube shorts that's an answer to
Tik Tok eating their lunch on the short
form
or um you know what's another you know
uh Instagram you know you've got the
community tab blah blah blah I don't
think they're competing with other
social networks I think YouTube is now
competing with television broadcast for
sure and so if you take away the views
and you take away the likes basically
it's all these signals that other people
like it which would persuade you even if
you weren't interested in that content
to watch it oh everyone else has seen it
maybe I should see it too then it's just
a
meritocracy uh you're not building an
audience you're attracting an audience
and you only get to keep them if you
earn their attention and
therefore YouTube becomes more like
Netflix that way y that doesn't show any
of their metrics either right if it if
you like the show it needs to be damn
good y right yeah uh it's very possible
very possible and Spotify is kind of
doing the same thing so they just
announced their creator fund and and
they're doubling down on video it's very
interesting I feel
like well we do know is happening like I
I haven't heard movement on on this
removing of views but what we have seen
happening is uh a a shift
in you know
algorithmically presenting smaller and
newer and smaller channels much more
frequently right so that is happening
right now uh if you search for
something um you know two two three
years ago you would largely see
the more popular you know stuff that
pissed me off yeah yeah it's hard to
break through but now it's there is a a
pretty noticeable increase in the amount
of search results or just um if you're
in a category of content that you're
going to get hit uh in a way that you've
not before with like brand new channels
um and so that could be a step in the
direction you're talking about yeah but
I I I do agree that that's actually a
complaint a lot of small art creators
have is
like I if it's if you have to constantly
compete with everyone who already has a
massive audience like do we have any
chance starting out I think YouTube's
trying to answer for that a little bit
more yeah I I like that direction I like
I do too the Netflix model of because
you don't know who the next amazing
Creator is right like give them a chance
right yeah it's not just that but it's
like um good content is not toine by how
many views it has well could be the
opposite could be this I mean I remember
scrolling through YouTube one day and
there's this trash truck video it has
like 80 bazillion views and it's I'm
sure just all these 8-year-old kids
watching the trash truck come and dop
the trash I mean it is a little bit
magnetic like a moth to the flame right
but like come on yeah right so but there
are so many audiences for so many
different niches yeah whether you love
ponies or you love you know knitting or
you love Tech or you know there's
something for you yeah and I love that
it could become Mar you could become a
thought leader in that space I agree and
[Music]
um I I'm also seeing stats that more
people are watching YouTube on TV that
is unequivocally true right yeah and and
YouTube TV is actually doing quite well
very well it's one of the few cou
products that's actually succeeding yeah
it's it's like I think it's their
fastest growing segment yeah well he
raised the prices on me oh did they yeah
uh but share of watch time like on on TV
yeah YouTube is is growing like crazy
and I think it I believe it just eclips
Netflix as far as watch time on TV
correct um so it's yeah I mean it's
about the most relevant you know content
platform there is in my opinion yeah and
and that's why I'm excited going back
full circle tour is this the best time
or the worst time to create that's why I
think it's the best time right because
especially if you have a series like
ours or if you're a Creator thinking
about creating a series even if you're a
Singapore Airlines or AES or
um uh whoop brand yeah you could
serialize your content story driven
that's actually watchable that people
would tune in to watch and the
integration of these established TV
shows with YouTube content I mean if if
it's on TV I mean very blurry line
between what's Hollywood produced
exactly and what's what Brian produced
in his bedroom right right mhm which is
awesome for the little guy I agree again
it's meritocracy totally agree yeah yeah
that's I mean that's what drew me to
YouTube in the first place it's like
taking control yeah it just I think
that's as a kid what was like why my
heart was so in it was like you mean
anybody you know it's like it's so cool
it's cool that you can become um you can
make an impact if you just understand
like how to play the game right yeah
anybody can can can make an impact yeah
so let's pick that apart a little bit
more too like how to play the game right
so let's say you know you come up with
this elegant strategy you you know
execute on it you have it executed and
then you're not seeing a lot of traction
yeah right uh you know some of the
metrics uh some of the data points
feedback is views and engagement y
you're not seeing a lot but that doesn't
mean it's bad content how long do you
give that great idea until you pivot cut
bait how's that work yeah so I think
what I would maybe I would start a
couple steps back because I think the
thing that most um most brands certainly
get wrong but even um you know creators
get wrong is on on YouTube to to play
the game right um You you let's say you
come up with a concept for something you
want to like you think oh wow this would
be a really great idea so I think the
let let's go to whoop then let's to
whoop yeah so um it'd be really cool if
we brought Cristiano Ronaldo and had him
do a series of like soccer challenges
and you know along the way we're
measuring you know we've got the loop
data so we can show his biom you know
all all the stats yep that's a cool idea
sounds cool um what will happen is like
all right cool let's make that let's do
it uh let's bring Cristiano in let's
film this thing make it how however cool
we want and then um time to upload at
this stage they they asked 99% of the
time the at this very stage when it's
about ready to upload it's what's the
thumbnail and title going to be um and
that's the exact opposite order of what
you should be doing right and so to play
this game well what you should be doing
is ask yourself sure yes what is what is
the concept that I think is is worth
filming but then immediately after you
have that thought your question should
be what is the thumbnail and title that
gets me very convinced that people would
have to click on this and watch it yeah
and I often
argue um you know it's kind of maybe a
hot take but I would argue that if you
cannot come up with that packaging like
if there's if it's not clear to you what
a thumbnail en title would be that
deserves people's click you shouldn't
even make that thing you're just wasting
your time yeah like what what what good
is it if you made something incredible
and no one watches it yeah so you do
need to pass it through the filter of is
anyone going to choose to watch this
yeah I'll even take it step further back
yeah and use your own example is uh
where are my hungry people at is there
anyone even hungry oh yeah exactly
should I even be making food true right
so again it goes back to this
understanding of the audience of what
they need yeah because it is sort of
fundamental when you think about it um
you're right to your point the order of
operations is wrong even even
manufacturing it's like hey I thought of
making this product I think it's a great
idea maybe it solves my problem but I
don't know about other people but I'm
just going to make it yeah spend money
on a die you know manufacturing you make
a minimum quality quantity and you take
it to Market yes and no one buys it
surprise surprise you know you should
first find out where the demand is yeah
so one I mean a couple things I pitched
whoop for example just to give you a
sense um two formats that came to my
mind
were um the first is called pressure
tested and you know we went straight to
a thumbnail en title that we felt like
we're super super clickable but the idea
is to bring these professional athletes
or just great athletes I don't have to
be
professional and have them step into um
you know those moments that are pretty
high stress whether it's a second left
on a shot clock and you're shooting a
free throw or you know a boxer walking
up to the ring right before you know
those moments that are are hard to
understand how a professional like
mentally you know physiologically is
responding to them and there's Mass
curiosity I think amongst all of us like
what makes us different than a
professional athlete and being able to
actually put them in those moments
compared to just your regular everyday
people and see how they're because whoop
gives you all that data right as they
step up to these to these challenges
what is happening physiologically that
is or or maybe not different but
different than your everyday person who
you know I would imagine is sweating
bullets and heart rate is skyrocketing
and so giving giving that inside scoop
it also highlights the the product in a
amazing way like how much Insight you
get from the [ __ ] product but then pulls
the curtain open
to um the millions of people who are
just fascinated by professional athletes
and like what makes them different um
yeah or and sometimes I think that we're
holding up a mirror and we think am I
like Cristiano way yeah you know like
true oh you know he does it like this so
do I that's cool so you know we're
attracted to that it's true or it's
aspirational it 100% I mean if if you
saw Cristiano going for you know a free
kick or whatever penalty kick and you
see his heart rate going to whatever 160
you're like oh he's just like me like
yeah you know you you might think he's
cool as a bird or whatever you know just
it I think I think it bring makes
athletes even more relatable as well
yeah um actually I just saw a little
clip of that movie you're making in my
head which is Cristiano does it you see
what happens and then the you know
average dude does it too and he sees
himself doing it as well as Cristiano
but we see how actual it actually is
right right right and like the delusion
in his mind or the Distortion sure and
he's just like yes and we're just like
oh yeah not quite buddy yeah got a few
years so how do you do get to there
could be fun yeah yeah so I had a few
few ideas for them that you know I broke
down the what the packaging would look
like and how it would happen and all
that and I I think there's um that's
generally the approach that I think
anybody should take is just like concept
to quickly understanding how this would
be a must-watch for for a bunch of
people yeah and you're right you kind of
put it into these categories of you know
Mystique or suspense you know
Cliffhanger you know whatever there's
these categories right and you're using
the word format you know that's a TV
term right you know uh Survivor which is
a a format show yeah uh it's a
competition show that's the format yeah
exactly I like we you know we tend to go
to formats instead of just like one-off
videos because they have repeatability
to them you can swap in a VAR like hot
ones is arguably the the the most
successful YouTube format of all time um
unless you count Mr Beast stuff but you
know uh it's an interview show hot wings
and it doesn't matter how it arguably
has infinite lifespan because you just
swap in for a new celebrity that you
care about right and you see them die
over hot wings like it's it it has a
long long lifespan yeah um so I I
gravitate to formats a bit more yeah
smart Okay so recapping what you said
you know think in terms of format think
about you know the audience that you're
seeking to serve you know what is there
I'm starving moment that you can solve
exactly uh uh order of operations it's
can you show the thumbnail solving the
problem that you're thinking about
solving in a you know whatever size
pixel that is small mhm you know it's
small right exactly so often times the
problem is the complexity of the idea
can't be distilled into something simple
yeah and that's usually that's that has
in my in case usually what I kill an
idea for for that reason is like we we
thought it was a really cool like an
example of this was
at Jubilee we we made a a show called um
reverse relationship which was like what
what would happen if we brought um like
blind date people together and instead
of having them go through this order of
sequences um that you normally go
through in dating like first aid and
then whatever you we reverse it all so
actually the very first time they see
each other is under an altar that's and
then and then do you or don't yeah yeah
and then they they kiss without seeing
each other then we put them in a bed
then they meet you know they meet each
other's families and yeah we did it and
it was really fascinating um but the
series didn't do as well uh because we
could like it was it's kind of a it was
complicated to describe in the thumbnail
on title like how do you you know take
that entire sequence of events and make
it into one simple thing um it was
difficult it was difficult we we gave it
our best shot but I the pitch ping uh
it's Benjamin button's meets 90day
fiance exactly exactly it's very
difficult to describe in like because
you only get a you get oftentimes a
millisecond like that's so so I have
these tests for what makes a good
thumbnail and one of them is the
millisecond test like I I quite
literally just look at it and look away
and do you immediately know what it is
like it's a billboard yeah if you have
to sit and read it and like think for a
few seconds it's not a good it's not
good like it needs to be very instantly
clear yeah well I mean it's a bit of an
indictment on me I think this is a huge
area of improvement for us in our
Channel yeah um me makes massive massive
impact it does yeah yeah because people
have choices yeah and they are swiping
left and swiping right and swiping up
and down you know yep and another thing
we do is um we take a screenshot there's
a tool now that does this but we we used
to do it manually we take a screenshot
of the YouTube homepage with all the
thumbnails it gives you you know as
options and then we take the thumbnail
that we thought that would be good and
we we put it on top of one on and and we
we ask ourselves like how much does it
stand out relative to the Sea of
thumbnails that are being presented yeah
um so we do a couple tests like that I
love that is everyone else is green and
then okay so we need to go the opposite
of green which is yellow or purple or
you know on this yeah yeah and and but
see the thing is you won't know what the
homepage of the person who's getting
sered your video will look like so you
just have to kind of
you know if you if you place it in in
front of like 12 different thumbnails
the really the question is like is it
distinct enough in general that it would
stand out amongst you know whatever 20
different thumbnails um and it's a
helpful test yeah so I still didn't hear
you say how long you give the great idea
before you pet eight so we we tend to do
a um pilot series of for for our formats
and it's usually so basically after
three episodes
we we we cut it if it if it doesn't hit
our bar after three episodes but it's
very important to like three episodes I
know yeah so you do you do need to know
what you're looking for though to to
know whether to cut it or not like it's
short for us because we we've just you
know comparatively we can compare you
know just have all this data that we've
if we can look at three episodes within
a series be like yeah this seems like
it's just a dud yeah views or engagement
or both it's it's actually um well us
views is a um is more of a symptom of
the only two things that matter well
there's more than that but the two
needle movers are um clickthrough rate
and then you know average view duration
basically so is this concept interesting
enough for someone to click into it
right and then once they're there does
it is it engaging enough to keep them
watching yeah those two things are
arguably 90% of what matters on YouTube
yeah and then you know we look at some
other stuff like just the comments and
you know what percentage of people
subscribe to the channel after they
watch just little things like that but
those two those first two are by far the
biggest so if you get to three and it's
not the CTR and the uh average view
duration is not up to par and by the way
that assumes you you tweaked between
each
means you learned from you you saw the
first video and you saw what went wrong
like you looked at the CTR and the view
Direction like ah okay here's our
hypothesis on how we can make it better
the second time and you make that change
you remix it oh yeah yeah yeah you if
you don't remix then that's not a fair
you know you can't it' be hard to cut
after three you need to you need to
change something significant about it in
the second trial and if it happens again
you change it again and it's still after
three iterations of um looking at the
data and trying to improve it does not
work that's usually a time we we cut
yeah and how are you posting these are
they just published live or are you
publishing them sort of unlisted and
then no yeah just post it live okay
so let me tell you a quick story yeah
tell me I had this video um it's been
about four years and um you know she was
a bestselling author name is Mel Robbins
she's got a really popular podcast now
mhm I thought the interview was great it
I cut it down from like 90 minutes this
was like a 15minute clip just like
highlight like the best I posted that
and I thought it was just
excellent completely fell flat uh now I
didn't really tweat the thumbnail I was
guilty of what you just explained you
know content first thumbnail
afterthought um bummed out forgot about
it and I don't know 12 months goes by
mhm and I went back just by Happ inance
to see that video and it it had a few
hundred I'm talking about a few hundred
views I mean pathetic you know we have
just under
400k Subs right now anyway it just
completely deud I thought you know what
the hell yeah not fair um 12 months
later I go back and that thing has got
400k that's
awesome three months after that it was
up over 2 million that's incredible
another three or six months after that
is up at 4 million so must have I'm
guessing in her uprise or no like was it
because of her or no I don't know so
this is what I'm asking it's like
man I think you have to your advice is
solid yeah but I also think you have to
be careful because in my experience
sometimes it could be my own fault
either I didn't tag it right with a
metadata or descriptions it took a while
for the algorithm to find it and serve
it to the right people who loved it yeah
that happens eventually that does happen
a lot you know so well I can't say a lot
but that happens it definitely happens
um we have a pl we had plenty of flops
that um well yeah initially started as
flops and then because YouTube is all
like forever from the moment you publish
it to Forever in time trying to find
somebody who wants to watch that right
um so it it you know um it has a a
chance at life for sure um you know for
us it's
like not we're not saying we would
delete those videos after we gave them
you know those three three videos but
when you have only limited amount of
things you can make um we're we're we're
trying to optimize for things that we
feel um don't you know don't
need I don't know 24 months to find an
audience kind of thing so um it often
times is just kind of PRI a priority of
like trying to get closer or faster to
to some success yeah and that's another
good example of how strategy really
shouldn't change if you have a solid
strategy the TAC tactics can change even
the goals can change but the you want to
change tactics not strategy yeah that's
true and I would say there were there's
a couple partners of ours that um I so
convinced in the the format like the
concept and how it would work for their
um um their channel that we did try it a
few times but um and it didn't quite get
the
traction but like I I kind of was so
obsessed about the format that I I just
felt that they weren't quite executed in
in in the potent like that the potential
that the format had and so it's like
let's just let's let's keep trying yeah
um and that's you know if you have that
conviction that can still you know you
should still pursue that thing I think
as well yeah yeah and in Pros like Jimmy
I've heard him say you know it's a
ridiculous amount of time and money
invest those thumbnails yeah I mean I
think they're changing like hundreds of
times yeah he uh even during upload MH
he I think he spends I don't know um I
think the figure was like 30 or 40 grand
um per like videos thumbnails just
designing you know a hundred variations
and then doing an internal test on what
they think asking other people he
respects like what thumbnail is the best
and then yeah once you upload YouTube
now has the internal AB test so you can
upload three options and it will trial
and tell you which one's the best but
prior to that tool being launched there
were third party tools that allowed you
to rotate thumbnails I mean infinitely
like you could put 100 and SW swap them
every two hours or whatever it is and um
I think at that at that point it's a
like it's a little too much to do that
but um I do think AB testing is is
pretty important though yeah and I think
the message there too for just
underscore is like if if Jimmy Donaldson
has to spend 40 Grand per thumbnail and
he doesn't get it right the first time
out of the gate right if you're not
getting it right it's okay that's true
yeah you're right that's true yeah I
mean he's got to go through dozens
hundreds of iterations before he finds
the one all right you know take a breath
it's all right yeah that's true it's a
good point I mean we were just sitting
back you know chopping it up reminiscing
about the good old days and all that you
know tracking my roots where I came from
and where I'm
[Music]
going but like I say
man always said
it it's not about the destination
n it's all about the jour
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