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World Expert on Love: Your Brain Already Picked Your Partner (But They’re Lying About Monogamy)
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We are not a monogous species. It's a
social construct. And I get attacked for
saying things like this. But sexual
monogamy from an evolution point of view
is not a good idea. That's why we have a
reasonably high rate of people who have
extramarital affairs. So do you think
we're all somewhat pretending to be
monogous? Who do you think struggles
with it more, men or women? And you said
that there's not a difference in
well-being and satisfaction between
polyamory or monogamy. Absolutely not.
How do we know this? Because we've done
studies on it. And I've committed the
last two decades of my life to
understand the neuroscience of love. Dr.
animation is the Oxford trained
evolutionary anthropologist using
science to decode attraction, attachment
styles, love addiction, and now the
crucial roles of the father. So, here's
the thing. When we look for a partner,
we don't know we're doing it, and it
involves two very distinct areas of the
brain. So, there's the unconscious
stage. That's where you take in loads of
sensory information about them. So, for
example, if you're a woman, you can
smell genetic compatibility. Wait, so
men can't smell women, but women can
smell them? You can smell them, but it's
not going to give you any information
about genetic compatibility. So, your
brain is going to help you assess
whether they're any good for you. If you
get a good ping, certain chemicals, the
very core of the brain take away the
fear. It gives you motivation. Now,
human love is so complicated. So, for
example, the chemistry that underpins
love is also involved in
neurodeiversity. So, if I have ADHD or
autism, how am I more likely to struggle
in love? This is really, really
important. First of all,
Dr. Machan, why are you talking about
fatherhood? The way our culture treats
fathers is wrong. The myths we carry
about fathers are wrong. Men have a very
specific role in child development. And
I wasn't expecting to find this when I
first started, but it's fundamental for
a child to thrive and survive and be
successful. So, what we're finding is
this has always blown my mind a little
bit. 53% of you that listen to this show
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that you want me to speak to and we'll
continue to do what we do. Thank you so much.
Dr. Anna Machan, what is the the mission
you've so far committed your life to?
And and I guess adding to that, why I've
committed the last two decades of my
life to understanding human love and
understanding human close relationships.
Because as an anthropologist, I
understand that love sits at the center
of what it is to be human. If you strip
everything else away and you just you've
got your food, you've got your water,
the next thing you need are your
relationships, is your love. And we are
so lucky as a species to experience love
in quite a complex way with many
different types of people and beings.
And we know that it's like the number
one thing in terms of your your health,
mental, physical, your longevity, your
happiness, your well-being. And I think
we need to understand it particularly in
a world where we're starting to get a
lot of input in terms of technology and
AI and the world is getting quicker. We
need to go back to who we are really at
our core and what love really is. is and
and I suppose that's what I've I've
given my life over to is to really
explain to people who are you because
your love is your identity essentially.
And you use the word anthropologist
there. What is an anthropologist? Okay.
So an anthropologist is somebody who
studies the human species. I'm an
evolutionary anthropologist which means
I sit at the scientific end of it. You
consider sort of the cultural end or the
scientific end. And I study how
evolution has shaped us and also why
things evolved. So for example, why did
love evolved? Why did fatherhood evolve?
Um, and I use lots and lots of different
techniques, scanning and genetics and
all these different things to be able to
answer that question. I've got another
book sat in front of me here which is I
guess somewhat linked to love which is
about fathers. Yeah. So, how did how did
these two things come together? We've
got a book here about love and then
we've got a book about fatherhood and
you're you're very well known for
talking on the subject of fatherhood.
What what is the link? How did the link
come to be and why why are you talking
about fatherhood? We have the wrong idea
about fathers. The way our culture deals
with fathers, treats fathers is wrong.
The myths we carry about fathers are
wrong. The influence they have on their
children and ultimately on our society
is fundamental. So the link came because
I had a child and like most couples who
have a baby, you know, we talked about
it. We were like, we're going to going
to start trying to have a baby. Then we
became pregnant, which was great. Did
the pregnancy test together. Went to the
antiatal classes, went to the scans, all
wonderful. went in to have the baby and
it didn't turn out how it was supposed
to. I was very, very ill. I lost a lot
of blood. My daughter was poorly when
she was born. And afterwards, I was
offered loads of counseling. Would you
like a debrief? Would you like? And I
was like, well, to be absolutely honest,
I'm okay cuz I passed out. I literally
don't remember anything. But my husband
witnessed it all. And he basically saw a
car crash in slow motion with two people
in it who he loved very deeply. Um, and
I completely understand why it was a
very stressful information. But nobody
explained to him what was happening. And
so they mopped me up, took my baby, took
her to neonatal care and left him in the
room on his own. And I was breathing
very shallowly and he was scared. And
the cleaner came in and said and was
cleaning away. And he just said um to
the cleaner, do you think she's dead?
Cuz I was breathing so shallowly. And
the cleaner went, no, I don't think so,
mate. I think they would have told you
if she was dead. But after that, he
couldn't talk about the birth. He
couldn't imagine the birth. He couldn't
deal with the emotions from the birth
for a good two years afterwards. And he
was really worried about having another
kid. And this made me really angry
actually cuz I was like, hold on, we
went into this together and he's
literally been discarded like he doesn't
matter. And to me, he's fundamentally
important. And then as our daughter
grew, I saw the amazing bond he built
with her, how integral he was to her
life. And so when I went back to
university at Oxford to study and to do
my work, I thought, well, I'm an
anthropologist. Okay, let's look up what
do we know about fathers in our society.
And there's literally nothing. There was
a lot of work on absent fathers. Uh, and
their impact is is fundamental. We know
that. And there was a lot of quite
stereotypical work on young fathers,
teenage fathers. Nothing on the majority
of dads who whether they co-reside or
not stick around. So I started with some
really simple questions. uh what happens
to a man when he becomes a father? Does
he alter biologically, psychologically?
How does he build his bond with his
child? What's the nature of that bond?
Does he have a role in child development
separate to that to mom? Because when I
started 20 years ago, the mantra was
dads didn't undergo any changes. Uh dads
did not have a bond like mom to their
children. It was not as intense and it
certainly wasn't an attachment
relationship, which we all know are
really intense, important relationships.
And as an evolutionary anthropologist, I
was like that that can't be right
because human fatherhood is rare. We are
one of only 5% of mammals that have
investing fathers and we're the only ape
now. For something that rare to evolve,
it has to have had a purpose because it
led to amazing anatomical social
upheavalss. So that's what I began to do
20 years ago. I started asking those
questions. I recruited my first group of
15 firsttime fathers when their partners
were three months pregnant and off we
went. So the question that's front of
mind for me is is what is it upstream
that made us devalue the role of a of a
father? Where did that come from?
Because fathers are somewhat seen as
surplus a requirement I think. Where did
that come from? It's cultural. It's
entirely cultural because there are
cultures in the world who don't think
that and fathers are very very integral.
So in fact one of the most hands-on
fathers in the world is from the aka
tribe in the Congo. They keep physical
contact with their children for 50% of
the day. They carry them around. They
co-sleep. Not the mom. They co-s sleep
with the with the child. They are the
one that that carries the far the child
through the jungle when they're hunting
and gathering. They are the one that
sings to the child, reads stories to the
child. They even and this is the bit
that always gets the headlines. They
even will offer a nipple to soo the
child until the mother is ready to
breastfeed. So, it's cultural. We have
this idea that and it's partly it partly
came very much from the Victorian period
where fathers were seen to be
disciplinarians and and providing the
money and that was the Victorian idea of
being a father. It's also to do with our
with our with our politics in society
for a long time. So women weren't able
to go out to work and that's where we've
remained till very very recently. But
there's no biology behind that. That's
entirely cultural. And I think also it's
very much the case. Yes, women today we
have contraception so we can control our
our production of children. We can earn
our own money. We can protect ourselves.
We can look after ourselves. So actually
in one sense you think well yeah what's
the dad for? because I can do all those
things which historically the father had
to do when women's positions were
different. But and we've sort of carried
on with that and there's become this
mantra of actually then we just we just
don't need them. I mean I've even been
to lectures where they've decided that
the Y chromosome is going to become
obsolete and that we really won't need
dads at all even to conceive children at
some point and which to me sounds
ludicrous and that's where it's come
from and we've embedded that and we
embedded it in our media. So dads were
always bumbling or useless or absent.
you know, Daddy Pig is the ultimate
bumbling, useless father, and we laughed
at it. We think it's funny. Maybe the
way that these these two subjects
initially do sort of dovetail into each
other, is when we think about the state
of love and the role of men and women,
you touched a bit on there when you
talked about how women are earning more
and more, so men are becoming a little
bit more apparently obsolete in what
they can offer to a monogous
relationship. There were some stats that
I was looking at before you arrived, and
I'll read them out to you. The stats say
that only 38% of single women are
actively looking to date versus 61% of
single men. Um, which is a huge gap.
Morgan Stanley projects that 45% of
women aged 25 to 44 will be single by 2030.
2030.
Um, in England and Wales, a record
almost 40% of adults have never married.
For women aged 30 to 34, the figure is
now almost 60%.
Which is the lowest ever. Women initiate
roughly 70% of divorces, showing a
greater willingness to exit marriages
that are unsatisfying than men. And
obviously, I think one of the points you
were sort of touching on there is that
women are now much more educated um as
it relates to things like college
degrees compared to men. There's this
bigger picture around relationships and
love that kind of sits in the background
of this and women's rise in
independence, which I think we could all
agree is is always going to be a
positive thing. But downstream from that
is a clear issue in how we form monogous
heterosexual relationships these days.
And also like
you know part of the reason one of many
reasons I wanted to speak to you is I
was I was thinking about my friendship
group and the women that I know and more
I spoke to a friend of mine a couple of
couple of weeks ago and I I said to her
like what like what are your goals and
she said I currently have about 150
plants and I want to get to about 250
plants. I I said to her do you want you
want to get married? You want to have
kids? She went no interest in that. What
I want is I want to get to the point
where I have financial freedom. so I can
buy a house and I want to get over 200
plants. Yeah. And this is it sounds kind
of funny, but it's an increasingly
familiar story that I'm hearing which is
once upon a time the goal would have
been get married, you know, have kids,
build a life together. Now it's more individualistic.
individualistic.
What's your thoughts here? What is the
state of love at the moment? Well, it's
definitely more individualistic. We've
become a more individualistic society.
So we are looking more at yes what do I
want rather than what what in a way
contributes to community which is what
collectivist societies do women in the
past had to get married you couldn't
have children out of wedlock that was
definitely not acceptable you had to get
married because uh that's where your
financial security was and that's what
you did quite often those marriages
weren't based on love they were based on
very pragmatic decisions about this is
where I need to be so women have been
freed from that they don't have to do
that anymore the other thing to say is
they've realized that romantic love
isn't the only love in the box what we
call their key survival critical
relationship in many cases. So the
relationship that's going to support
them emotionally, physically,
practically, all those sorts of things
are their female friends, their chosen
families and that's who they're turning
to. And that's why we're seeing less and
less women saying that romantic love is
a priority or parental love is a
priority. And in one sense, that's great
because actually it's showing that all
these loves are equal and I can I can
love in that way. And I think that's
wonderful in one sense, but yes, it does
mean that we're turning away from that
idea of long-term cohabiting
companionship. And so when people say to
me, for example, is marriage going to
die? Are we going to end? No, I don't
think it is. We will always, for
example, have a ritualistic marking of a
romantic relationship, whatever sex you
are and whatever sexuality you are, I
think that will always exist. But we're
going through a bit of a sea change.
We're also seeing it in older women,
post-menopausal women, because it's only
really very recently that we've got to a
point where we have a long
post-menopausal lifespan as women.
Usually, you know, 100 years ago, if you
got to 50, which is the age for
menopause, the standard age, you were
lucky if you were still alive. But now
that period of time could be 20, 30, 40,
even 50 years. So I think women post 50
and they there's been a massive uptick
in post50 divorces instigated by women
is they look at their partner and they
think you were a great dad. I selected
you when when that's what I wanted to
do. I wanted to have children. I wanted
to build fun. But I look at you now and
I think but is this the person I want to
do the next phase of my life with
because that's a very different set of
needs. And so we're seeing women
actually looking no do you know what I'm
going to start a fresh? I'm going to do
something different. And it might be
they look for a different relationship
or they might be yeah they decide I'm
not going to have another romantic
relationship. What is the difference
that needs just out of curiosity? I want
to make sure that my partner doesn't
dump me when she hits 50. Okay. The
difference is so when we when we are
younger and we look for a partner for a
romantic relationship we don't know
we're doing it. There are two stages of
attraction in romantic love. There's the
unconscious stage which we share with
all the mammals and then there's the the
conscious stage which is very different.
That involves your neoortex which
looking at this is this big wnup bit on
the outside. Human love is special
because it involves two very distinct
areas of the brain. So this is the
limbic area of your brain. This bit in
the center here, that's your unconscious
brain. That's where your emotions sit,
where nurturing behaviors sit, where
attachment behaviors been. It's very
evolutionarily ancient. It's been around
for millions and millions of years. And
this is where initially attraction
starts. And what you do is you lock eyes
with someone across a crowded room and
you take in loads of sensory information
about them. So you take in visual
information. What do they look like?
What does their body shape tell me about
their value? How are they moving? Do
they look healthy? If you're a woman,
you will give them a good sniff. Um, and
you can smell genetic compatibility.
Wait, so men can can't smell women, but
women can smell them. Well, you can
smell them, but it's not going to give
you any information about genetic
compatibility. So, what what happens is
a woman, the major hystocompatibility
complex, what's that? It underpins your
immune system. It's a complex set of
genes. And bizarrely that set of genes
also underpins your smell, your ability
to smell your olfactory system. Okay?
And in women they can smell how
genetically close a male's MHC is major
hystocompatibility complex. How close it
is to theirs because you don't want too
close because you don't want to breed.
Also you want it distant because then
your child gets a really lovely diverse
immune system because they've got a
diverse set of genes underpinning it. So
you smell them. It's not a conscious
thing. So people say to me, "Oh, but you
know what about after shave? What about
perfumes? Or it's not conscious. You do
not know you're doing it. And one of the
things that will be fed into your limbic
area is the result of that little test.
If you're a woman, what what do they
smell like? How do they know this? Have
they tested this? Okay, we've tested
this in several ways. There was the very
famous t-shirt test which tell people
love. Um where you make a load of men
put on a very plain t-shirt. They're not
allowed to wash. They're not allowed to
use deodorant. Not allowed to do
anything. Wear it for 24 hours. Then we
put it in some ziploc bags and we went
get some poor unsuspecting woman to
sniff them all. And the idea is that the
one she finds most attractive to sniff
is the one which is genetically furthest
away from her. And it does work. It
works. When you genotype her, you can
see that they are different. We don't
have to do that anymore. We have very
sophisticated genotyping technology now.
If you really wanted to, there's a
company in Switzerland that will do it
for you. So you can spit on something,
send it off with your partner, and they
will tell you how close your major
hystocompatibility complexes are. I'm
just wondering why men didn't evolve to
be able to do that. We think it's
probably because the cost to a woman of
getting it wrong and having a baby who
is basically too genetically close is
much greater than it is for a man
because she is basically taking herself
out of that opportunity to to reproduce
for nine months plus the bit after to
look after that child. And so that's a
really long period of time. Whereas a
man, it's not that costly. Okay. So
you've taken in all that information
from the sensors. It's all woring around
in here. And what your brain is actually
doing is your brain has got a very
complicated algorithm which is working
out the biological market value of the
person in front of you. Now the
biological market value is how likely
that person is to be reproductively
successful. Because from an evolutionary
point of view, that's the whole point of
your existence. Whether you want kids or
not, guys, that's the point is you have
to reproduce. Have some lovely, healthy
kids, raise them to maturity so they can
reproduce because we just want your
genes from an evolutionary standpoint.
We're not interested in you as a
personality. And so you want somebody
who has got the highest likelihood of
being good at that. And we can tell that
from lots of things to do with how
someone looks, the pitch of their voice,
how they smell. What men actually do is
they look at the waist hip ratio. You
don't know you're doing it, but
eyetracking experiments show that men do
it. They don't know that it's completely
unconscious. Wonderful studies been done
with people walking down the street with
we not mentioning to them what we're
looking for. They're wearing eyetracking
uh technology and what they do is the
first thing they glance at even if they
don't know it is the waist tip ratio
before. For example, they will look at
the face and what they're calculating is
what that ratio is because we know
cross-culturally the most attractive
ratio is a 7. And that is actually a
classic hourglass
cross-culturally. Cross-culturally if we
go and it's nothing to do with weight
because some cultures like bigger
weights than other cultures. Nothing to
do with weight. It's to do with the
ratio. And so if we were show if we show
that ratio to different cultures, they
will go it's that one. And the reason
for that is there is a direct link
between that ratio and for example
fertility. So if a woman has that it
shows she's got high circulating
estrogen. It shows she's not near
menopause because when we go to
menopause we we get more of a male
figure. It goes towards one the ratio
because of the drop in estrogen and the
and the buildup in testosterone. So we
know that there's a link between 7 and a
range of illnesses uh chronic illnesses
such as diabetes, heart disease, certain
forms of cancer. So actually what you're
assessing there is how healthy how
fertile is this woman? So, if I take
myself off the market for a period of
time, am I going to end up with some
kids? And is she healthy to raise them?
In those eyetracking studies, what do
women look at? Women look at slightly
different things. And for women, what's
really interesting is it's not as
visual. So, women look at the at the
shoulder waist ratio. So, that's Yes,
there we go. And what you're looking for
as a woman is a triangle. So, nice broad
shoulders, narrow waist. Okay. Okay. Now
the ideal there is 1.6.
What I will say before men rush off and
measure their weight is really only
Olympic athletes have 1.6. 1.6 meaning
the top half should be 1.6 bigger than
than your waist. Okay. So if my waist is
let's say 100. Yes. That's how bad my
math is. Yes. This needs to be 160. 160.
Okay. So my waist is 100. The top is
160. Yes. Okay. Okay. But that's
actually really only Olympic athletes.
Please everyone don't rush off and
worry. Um but what that's showing is
that shows certain things which are
desirable in a male. Um so things like
physical strength. So if you have a big
upper body and a narrow waist, first of
all, it shows you're not holding fat
around here, which is a real sign of ill
health for men. It shows you that you're
very fit around here. It shows that
you've got very broad shoulders. You are
muscular. You are able to to protect and
provide. It's a sign of reasonably high
testosterone. Testosterone is linked to
success in men. Okay? So it shows that
I'm I'm a successful person in our
society that's successful socially and
successful financially. Testosterone is
linked to success in men. Yes. Yes.
Because it makes you very competitive.
Okay. So we get all these things. You
take all that in. You take in that
visual information. You do your little
algorithm in your brain which obviously
you don't know is happening. If you get
a good ping as in yes this person has a
good biological market value. I like
that. What happens is in the very core
of the brain in the middle. So this is
this is the very core of the brain here.
There's a a structure in there called
the nucleus cumbent. It's full of
dopamine and oxytocin receptors that
fires off, goes completely mad if we
look at it on the screen. And dopamine
and oxytocin flood that system. And the
reason why they are important is in a
way they are the hormones of attraction.
So oxytocin lowers your inhibitions to
starting new relationships. Okay? So it
takes away the fear. And the way it does
that is it quietens your amydala. So the
amigdula is a tiny little structure down
here at the bottom and it it's where
fear sits and that's the thing that if
you're not feeling confident has that
monologue in the back of your head going
okay you're just you're just not very
good at this. You're going to walk
across the bar. You're going to say
hello and they're going to humiliate
you. So it quietens that area. We see
less activity there. So you've got more
confidence. Also oxtoin makes you feel
quite chilled. It's quite nice. And then
dopamine is also released because
dopamine is your hormone of motivation.
And if you just had oxytocin, you might
be so chilled, you sat on the barcel and
you did not move because you're having a
lovely time. So dopamine is there to go,
no, you actually have to go across the
bar and you have to say hello. And so
they work really, really well together.
And they also work together to make your
brain more plastic. So I have to ask you
then, if I'm a single person, yes, and
with what you've just told me about the
brain, I'm trying to increase the
probability that someone will be
attracted to me and form a relationship
to me. M what kind of behavior do I need
to be embodying to cuz I want to I want
to reduce the fear part of their brain
so that they're they're more comfortable
and I want that oxytocin and dopamine to
be firing. Yes, absolutely. So quite
often people say to me how can I hack my
first date? So the way you can hack your
first date is you can do an activity
which releases betaendorphine and
dopamine and oxytocin. The best one I
have found which I I appreciate is a
niche interest is some form of dancing
in couples. ballroom dancing, you know,
tango, whatever it is, because first of
all, you're touching. So, you get
released oxytocin and betaendorphine.
They're both released by touch. You're
moving around. As any gym bunny knows,
exercise produces betaendorphine.
Hopefully, you're not that great at
this. So, you're going to laugh a lot
because you're actually a little bit
rubbish. Okay? So, you're releasing lots
and lots of lovely oxytocin dopamine and
betendorphine doing that. Then
afterwards, you need to go and have a
curry. Okay? Because betaendorphine
evolved initially as your body's
painkiller. That's stellar role it has.
Over time it's been co-opted into our
social uh sphere. But we know you have
pain receptors in your gut. So if you
have a curry, your gut gets a little bit
irritated because it's a little bit
spicy. So don't have a coma. And it produces
produces
and and we know that that will also help
you help you feel more euphoric, help
you feel more relaxed and help that
person be more attracted to you because
they will also get a hit of it. So that
that's your ideal date. I appreciate
it's very niche and not everyone will
want to do that, but there are ways and
then I'm going to take her to the comedy
store. Yeah. And have a really good
belly laugh. A proper laugh produces
beta endorphin. Okay. Yeah. Had we
finished with the Well, so what you're
doing, your biological market value
comes out. As I say, you hit dopamine
oxytocin. Your amydala quietens. You
feel much more confident. You feel much
more chilled. Dopamine motivates you to
walk across the bar and off you go and
you strike up conversation. And that is
the way attraction works in all mammals.
It's completely unconscious. So you
don't know any of this is happening.
What's different in humans is very
quickly after that, particularly once
they've opened their mouth, it all
starts kicking off in the outer area of
the brain. So your neoortex. So the
major social area of the brain is here.
This is your prefrontal cortex. And your
prefrontal cortex is where all those
social uh abilities sit, you know. So um
trust uh reciprocity ability to maintain
ability to abstract about your
relationship or ability to daydream
about what it's going to be and that's
where all that sits. So we start seeing
firing off here and what's really what's
really important for human love is there
is a connection between this area of the
brain which is known as the striatum
which is unconscious and this area of
the brain the prefrontal cortex. So your
unconscious brain and your conscious
brain can work together in attraction
and also this area of the brain at the
back which is known as the mentalizing
empathizing area of the brain. So we
need to have empathy in relationships.
It's the basis of love. So understanding
someone's emotional state and being able
to respond to it appropriately and also
mentalizing. So mentalizing is mind
readading. What's their intention? What
are they going to do next? You need it
for conversation. You also need it to
spot a cheat
because you need to check someone's
intention. So the mentalizing area of
the brain is important. The sad bit and
I'll explain this in a minute is is
unfortunately that bit shuts down a
little bit which isn't very helpful but
we'll talk about that. So then as soon
as they open their mouth you start to
contemplate them consciously and what
you contemplate consciously in terms of
your attraction can actually override
the unconscious bit. So you might have
had this amazing feeling of, you know,
lust and chemistry as you walk across
the bar thinking, "Wow, this person's
amazing. I'm feeling astonishing." They
open their mouth and they say something
to you which is just, you know,
unconscionable or awful or they've got
no sense of humor or they're really
unkind or whatever it might be and
suddenly that bit will step in and go,
"Uh-uh, nope, this person is not for
me." And that can override the biology.
But that's why what we say and I always
say the brain is the sexiest organ in
the body because ultimately it's what
you express with your brain that is
going to really determine whether or not
this love is going to go anywhere. And
that's what you say. Because ultimately
as humans the thing that makes us the
most successful species on the planet is
our brain. Not your shoulder waist
ratio, not your waist hip ratio. It's
actually your brain. Because you want
your kid to have the most creative,
flexible, funny, intelligent,
emotionally intelligent brain they can
have. And that's what you're looking for
in a partner in the long term. So based
on what you know about attraction and
falling in love and all those things,
what is like the worst thing one could
say in terms of the themes, the types of
things someone could say that would just
completely put you off. So I think
probably the absolutely worst thing you
can say and this comes from a lot of
data saying what's the most important is
to say something unkind.
So we know regardless of everything
else, the one thing that people want in
a long-term relationship is somebody kind.
kind.
So something critical of somebody else
in the room, particularly something crit
I mean, you don't know what that
person's interests are, but something
critical about something that's very
important to them. Don't be alarmed. The
waiter, waitress. Yeah. Exactly. That's
why how people treat I mean, personally,
I find people who treat waiters
enraging, you know, badly enraging. Um,
that's why because it's a rare
representation of who you are at your
core or they express a value which goes
completely against a value that you have
because we know in terms of long
long-term compatibility, it's things to
do with personality, it's things to do
with long-term values or beliefs that
are the most important things. So, let's
say somebody said something horrendously
homophobic or something like that or
something racist, that's an immediate
right. No, this person is not for me.
What about Ix? Because I see seem to
have emerged as like a it's so it's got
a friend of mine who's she's never been
in a relationship. She's um she's just
37 years old, 38 years old. And I
remember one day she was like, "Steve,
what am I doing wrong?" And I'm not
listen I was never really a dater. So I
have no right to to tell someone what
they're doing right or wrong. But she
showed me her dating profile. And in a
dating profile she said to me, I said no
to this guy and I looked at this guy
he's like a he's like a stud.
He's beautifully good-looking. was
really really kind in the messages he
had sent. She goes, "But if you look in
the background of his photo, there's
boxes on top of his wardrobe." And she
was like, "So I said no." Right now,
from an evolutionary perspective, you
can go, "Okay, maybe he's living at his
mom's house. Maybe he's just moved in.
Maybe what? Whatever. Maybe he's not a
settled person." But really, there is
become a culture of women and men
excluding each other based on extremely
surface level things. Now I'm like, does
that is that the preffrontal cortex
doing its job or is that something else?
It is the prefrontal cortex doing its
job. I would say it's not doing its job
terribly well. The ick is a really
recent thing that was generated by
social media. And this idea of narrowing
in closer and closer and closer and what
people like to call red flags and you
don't get a lot of information from
online dating because you don't get a
lot of sensory information to help you
make a decision. So people become more
and more obsessive. What's in the image?
What's in the image? What can I get
about this person? And they start to
become obsessed with tiny tiny things.
What ultimately people find attractive
is very very complicated. It's there are
so many different things that feed into
attraction. Whether or not somebody has
boxes on top of their wardrobe is very
unlikely to be even vaguely important in
terms of compatibility. I don't think
they should be called dating apps. I
think they should be called introduction
apps. And that's actually what the great
Helen Fcher said. She said they're
introduction apps. They broaden your
pool. They make more people available to
you. That's it. You're not having a date
on that app. You're not learning about
that person on that app. You're
literally seeing them for the first
time. And as soon as you can get in the
room with them and you can let your
brain do what it's really good at, half
a million years of evolution, that's
what you should do because they handicap
your brain. They give you very little
information to go into that algorithm.
You said something really interesting
there which kind of dubtales into what I
was saying about my friend who's never
dated but is struggling in dating. I
know a growing number of people that are
going on like a hundred dates a year and
having no luck. And just like
mathematically I go surely there must
have been someone suitable in that pool
of 100 people a year that you've met.
Yeah. What is going on here? It's two
things I think. First of all, as I've
said, it's the low cost of dating apps.
So in the old days when I was dating,
going on a date was a real investment of
time and energy. So you would probably
meet someone at work, you'd meet someone
at a bar, you'd meet someone through a
friend, which was a real blind date. And
you'd, you know, spend your time
thinking, what am I going to wear? and
I've got to go somewhere with this
person and spend some time with this
person, probably some financial
investment as well, get myself all
ready, spend an evening with them. And
that was how you were going to meet
somebody. So, you invested time and you
weren't going to do that unless you were
serious, to be honest. Because
otherwise, I'll stay at home. I'll do
something else. I'll go to the pub with
my friends. Whereas now, because we can
do it, we can literally go on a dating
app anywhere on the tube, while we're
cooking dinner, while we're watching
Netflix, anytime we want. It's low cost,
low investment. I read a study that
showed it was in a different context,
but it essentially showed that the
amount you invest in something
correlates to the amount that you
appreciate the thing. Absolutely. They
did this study where they let people
into a boring um forum without having to
pass any entry test and then they asked
them how much they appreciated the
boring forum and people said it's it's
uh it's boring. Yes. And then they got
another group of people, they made them
go through this sort of rigorous test to
get into this boring forum and then they
asked them how much do you appreciate
the forum. They said it's great. Yeah.
I'm obviously paraphrasing there, but it
just showed this link between the amount
you invest in a process is the more you
you appreciate it. And I think back to
being I don't know 14 years old going on
my first date and the the whole process
of getting ready to go to the cinema and
thinking about my outfit for 3 days and
then going there and being nervous and I
didn't have much money so this was like
a big thing and then how much you know I
almost felt like I fell in love with the
person irrespective just because of the
effort I'd put in I feel like I fell in
love with them. So So yeah. So that's so
so it's partly the low cost thing. It's
partly because all those people that
if you were doing it in person, your
brain would filter out. Let's say there
were 100 people in the room, your brain
would quite quickly filter out most of
them as no no no no no no maybe one or
two might because you can't filter in
that way on an app. You kind of take the
punt on all these dates because you're
like otherwise how else am I going to
actually meet this person? you can't
just have a casual chat by the coffee
machine at work or you know meet them
through some friends in the pub where
you would do that assessment without
really making that much effort whereas
because on a dating app the only way you
can meet that person is to actually go
on a date with them and do all that you
will end up going on a hundred to do
that filtering process. So it's partly
that as well and the last thing is the
paradox of choice. Yeah. So, we are
really, really bad at making choices
when there's a lot of options. And the
paradox of choice is very powerful in
relation to dating apps because
literally, particularly if you're
good-looking and you get a lot of
matches, there's like a smorggas board
of people out there that you can carry
on flipping or you can make a choice.
And it's our brains are not set up for
that. You know, a 100 years ago when we
were trying to find a partner, you would
maybe have the people in your village
who you grew up with to choose from. If
you had a horse, you could maybe have
the people in the next village or even a
town. Wow. And that was who you chose
from and it was a very small pool. Now
you can go anywhere in the world, turn
on your dating app and possibly have,
you know, hundreds of people to meet and
your brain can't do that. I mean, we can
all think about it as well in the
context of restaurants. If you go to
Thailand, Yeah. they give you like a a
catalog. Yes. The menu is a catalog.
They're like, "We will make anything."
Yeah. And you sit there for like Yeah.
45 minutes thinking, "Do I want fish,
chicken, eggs?" But then you go to like
a London fancy restaurant and there's
like we do this. This is it. So that's
why you end up with people who Yes. go
on 100 dates and don't actually
end up with anybody because they haven't
had that opportunity to filter. Monogamy
and polyamory. Yes. So can you define
both of those words? And um the thing
that I found really striking is I think
I heard you say that satisfaction in
either dynamic there polyamory or
monogamy is roughly the same because I
thought people in monogous relationships
were supposed to be way more happy than
people that are in polyamorous
relationships. No, not at all. So
monogamy is a relationship state where
there are two people who are
we okay we have to find two sorts of
monogamy. There's sexual monogamy that
is you are exclusive to that other
person sexually. You have sex with
nobody else and there is social monogamy
and that is you live with that person
exclusively. So within the UK, most
people, let's say if they have children,
are socially monogous. They live in a
household with their children with two
people in it. Whereas sexual monogamy,
you can be socially monogous and not
sexually monogous. So they're two
different things. But monogamy, if we
talk about it in sort of lay terms, is
two people who are exclusive to each
other in terms of love, in terms of sex,
and in terms of possibly living
together. Monogamy itself is a social
construct mostly. We are not a monogous
species. There are in fact very few
monogous species in the world. Maybe I
think I read a book the other day. It
says something like 0.002%
of the animals on this planet are
monogous because what you will see in
the wild and what you see mostly with
humans is social monogamy. They live
together but we know that the infidelity
rate is sits generally at around 50%. So
50% of those households are not sexually
monogous. Um and in fact from an
evolutionary point of view being
sexually monogous is a really quite bad
idea because um you are limiting
yourself to a very narrow gene pool and
that's why there are very few creatures
in the world that are truly sexually
monogous. I when I was doing my masters
my professor studied gibbons. Gibbons at
the time were known to be the monogous
ape and he studied he did a really
longitudinal study and he was the first
to realize that no they weren't. They
were all sneaking off and doing it
behind the rock with somebody else but
they were living together. But the
female was going to find some better
jeans somewhere else. This guy,
brilliant parent, not great jeans. I'm
going to go behind a rock and mate with
this really good-looking gibbon over
here because I'm going to get some good
jeans and then he's going to raise the
kid. And the and the guy is like, well,
you know, I'm obviously going to have
offspring here, but actually, you know,
mating with another female is not
particularly costly to me. So, I'll just
go and do that over there and let's hope
she can raise them on her own or maybe
her partner will raise them for me. So,
there are very few. So we have monogamy
in in mainly in the west um because it's
a socially prescribed
form of organization and it was imposed
because it is a form of control. It
mainly sits in terms of rules
particularly in religion but also there
were many legal rules. For example in in
Britain you can't be you can't have two
marriages. You can't be a bigamist. And
it's about making everybody control.
Because if we if we all just gave in
constantly to precisely what our drives
were saying, there'd be kind of chaos.
And those in power wouldn't be able to
predict what anybody is going to do
because actually I'm just going to go I
feel, you know, sexually attracted to
whoever that is over there. I'm going to
go marry with them, but I'm going to
come back and live here, but then I've
got a kid over there and it's it's all
really really confusing. So over time
when civilization first arose the more
complex we got and as we started to live
together in cities those in control were
like okay I really needed to be able to
predict what these lesser beings are
going to do so I'm going to impose
monogamy you can only live with one
person and basically have sex with one
person nobody actually ever only had sex
with one person but we're going to look
like we do and those are the rules and
that's why we have legitim legitimacy
rules about children and inheritance and
all that kind of thing because it
maintains control. So monogamy is yeah
simply a social construct. It's not
something that we've biologically
evolved to do. And we know that part you
know there are many countries in the
world where monogamy isn't what is
prescribed. How are those cultures
getting on the ones that aren't
monogous? Fine. What what cultures are
those? So you tend to get so so for
example in certain religions. So in
certain forms of Islam for example men
can have many wives. There are certain
um tribes which exist within sort of
South America and in certain areas of
Africa where you can have many wives.
For example, there are some um groups in
Nepal in the Himalayas where we have
what's known as polyandry. So one woman
has many husbands. Um usually the reason
why these different um groupings evolved
like monogamy is it's something to do
with economics generally. So for example
in Nepal in these areas because they
still have um male inheritance of land.
If let's say we've got a family farm and
there's five brothers if all of those
five brothers split the inheritance then
that farm would become uneconomic. You
wouldn't be able to farm it and make
money. So over time what's involved is
one woman will marry all the brothers so
that when they inherit the farm they
will all get it will carry on passing
down essentially. So if it goes against
our evolutionary design to be in
monogous relationships, doesn't that
mean that there's a lot of people who are
are
struggling against their Yeah,
absolutely. And that's why we have a a
reasonably high rate of people who have
extrammarital affairs. It's also why
people who are polyamorous or indeed
have open relationships say actually
it's the more truthful way of being
human because all they're doing is
following their drives and they actually
believe that it's more moral because if
you put forward a monogous front and you
have an affair, you are lying to people.
You are keeping a secret from people you
profess to love. Whereas if you're
polyamorous or you're in an open
relationship, you're actually openly
saying this is my drive. This is the
reality and I'm being truthful with
everybody about it. you can enter a
relationship with me or not on the basis
of truth. And that's what a lot of
polyamorous people particularly will
argue is that they're really
representing what is for most people an
ancestral state. Polyory is difficult
because unlike open relationships, open
relationships such as such as swinging
or or being open, we call them
consensual non- monogamy. That's just
based on sex. So you're not spreading
your love relationship, that emotional
investment, that emotional intimacy
amongst more than one person. Polyamory
is uh being open and having several
sexual partners and also having several
emotionally intimate relationships at
the same time. And I think people
struggle more with that because of the
issues of of jealousy um and the fact
that that goes quite strongly against
even our social ideas about monogamy
where we all sort of live in pairs. I've
got a friend of mine that's uh secretly
in an open polyamorous relationship
basically where there's two couples and
they are together. Yeah. So there's four
of them basically. But they they don't
talk about it publicly because of the
judgment. Yeah. And I think maybe part
of the issue is that judgment that
that's for the polyamorous people I I've
interviewed particularly for my book
that was the major thing is that they
were very happy in the relationship. The
relationships were going really really
well. But what was difficult was being
open about it. Particularly with for
example I'm talking to one woman who was
like like older members of the family.
So she was going to a family wedding.
She was and when she went to these
occasions with this family, she could
only ever take one of her partners. It
always had to be the same partner
because they had no idea the other
partner existed because that would be
very difficult for them to take. Also,
we know from studies that have been done
looking at people's attitudes to
polyamorous people. It they are seen as
immoral. They are seen as um unloving.
They're seen as cold because they have
this ability to love lots of many. They
can't truly love anybody because they're
splitting their heart between all these
different people. Polyamorous people
look at it the other way. As I've said,
they actually think it's very moral
because they're being truthful.
Polyamorous relationships tend to be
based on very open communication. That's
one of the rules is that is everybody
still happy? Is everybody still happy
with where the boundaries are? Has
anybody upset anybody else? So, it's
it's very very open. And they also
believe that and in some ways the
support from this, you know, we are able
to to love many friends at once. We're
able to love many children at once. They
say actually they don't split their
their heart. It's not a zero- sum game
that you get 50% and you get 50%.
Actually, that each time they take
somebody into their lives, their heart
just gets bigger. Do you think we're all
somewhat pretending to be monogamous?
I think some people are
happier with monogamy. We know that
partly from a genetic point of view. Um,
so there are some people, no, I don't
think struggle with it, but I do think a
reasonably significant number of people
probably do. Who do you think struggles
with it more, men or women? It really
depends. Do you know something that one
of the major misnomers in love research
is that there is much difference that
there's this major difference between
men and women. There really isn't. There
really isn't. It's more about who you
are at your core. More about attachment
style, personality, your life
experience, your genetics, all these
sorts of things are much more of a
factor in whether or not you will be
comfortable with monogamy or any of
those aspects than whether or not you're
male or female. And again, you said that
there's not not a difference between
well-being and satisfaction levels
versus monogous and polyamorous
relationships. No, absolutely not. How
do we know this? Because we've done
studies on it. We've we've asked we've
done we use the same satisfaction scales
about, you know, um how satisfied are
you in your relationship with various
aspects of that relationship? And they
come out as being absolutely no
different. For what it's worth, babe,
I'm I'm happy with our relationship. I'm
more than happy being monogamous. I I
find it to be a much much easier life.
Well, the only thing polyamorous people
say is you have to have a cracking
Google calendar. Yeah. The time. Yeah.
Yeah. Let's talk about the first
thousand days. So, you really believe
that the first thousand days of a
child's life are the most critical. Yes.
And linked to this is the role of both
the mother and the father. It's long
been assumed that the father is surplus
to requirements that they're not really
that important. as long as they're, you
know, in the stereotypical context. As
long as they're providing for the
family, they don't really need to be around.
around.
Is that true? And what do we need to
know about how formative those first
thousand days are for a child? Okay,
first of all, no, it's not true. Um, h
it's absolutely fundamental, I think,
for a child to get some input from a
father. I'm going to define father.
In the west, we're a bit obsessed with
the term biological father. And we
always describe that as the real father.
Even if he's not around, even if that
child has been brought up by a
stepfather, an adoptive father, what we
call a social father, which is a
grandfather, an uncle, a best friend, an
older brother. When I say father, people
assume I mean biological father. I
don't. I mean the man or men who have
stepped in and done the job. That is the
father. So I want to make that very
clear. essful. We know that young people
who grow up without that input, the
risks of having negative outcomes uh is
much higher without having a male role
model or some male role models in your
life. We know that they are much more
likely to display antisocial behavior.
They are much more likely to turn to
crime. They are much more likely to have
addiction issues. They are much more
likely to have mental health issues. and
their outcomes in terms of relationships
going through their life with in other
aspects of their lives are much more
negative and there is a reason for that. So
So
men have a very specific role in child
development and I wasn't expecting to
find this when I first started but I've
looked at fathering around the world in
many many different cultures and how men
arrive at that role is very different.
Um the the fathering role is much more
diverse than the mothering role. It's
partly because the mother's role is very
tight by biology, by pregnancy, child
birth, etc. Whereas men, we call it a
facultative role. And what that means is
it's much more flexible. It's much more
open to responding to changes in the
environment and adapting to them to help
the family survive. And we see that all
the way around the world. So dads do it
lots of different ways. It really
depends in your environment what the
major risk is. So in our environment,
you know, we don't really have survival
risks in our environment, not to the
extent that they do in some cultures. So
as a dad in in societies where survival
day-to-day survival is a is a problem
whether it's a war zone or whether there
are major major disease issues then a
dad's role there is to keep that kid
alive. If we look at other environments
where survival is reasonably secure but
economic survival is very on edge then
in those environments we tend to see
fathers again not particularly hands-on
in terms of caretaking or nurturing.
they are the um person in that kid's
life who's going to teach them the
skills they need to go forward and be
economically successful. So if you live
in a pastoral uh environment then they
will be taken into the fields and they
will be taught how to do that role and
then they will be taken to the markets
and they will be taught how to negotiate
and build the social networks they need.
And then in our environment where
economics is reasonably secure
comparatively survival is reasonably
secure comparatively then we are social
survival is important in our world. It
really is who you know. But what I found
regardless of how you were doing it was
all fathers have one major major role
and and it's a bit of a technical term
and I'll explain what it is. They
scaffold the child's entry into the
world beyond the family. And what that
means is they are the parent when it
comes to developing the skills, the
neural connections, the biology, the
physiology that enables you to leave
your family and go out into the world
and be successful, to thrive and
survive. And it starts when a baby is
born. So the attachments that a dad and
a mom build to that baby are just as
powerful as each other but they are
different. So a mom's attachment is
based upon nurture. And uh what we tend
to say with a mom and child attachment
is it's quite exclusive. So if you
imagine um a mother her major role with
that child is to nurture and protect.
And so when she's with that child she
will hold that child to her. It's very
inwardlooking. With dads, they do
nurture. Absolutely. They nurture. They
do all that kind of thing. But they use
that nurturing to build confidence in
that child as a secure base, which is
what attachment's about. And what they
actually do is they turn the child to
the world and they go, "Okay, you're
safe with me. I am always here. But I'm
going to give you a push and you're
going to go out into the world and
you're going to see what the world is
like. And I'm going to be the person who
gives you the resilience and gives you
the social skills and gives you what you
need to be able to do that. And you can
always come back to me when it goes
wrong." So what we say with a with a
father's attachment is it's based on
nurture and challenge. Mom is very
nurturing. Dad is stimulation. I'm going
to stimulate you and you're going to go
and do something amazing. And and that
is why you need fathers because those
outcomes we have for kids who don't have
an input from a father figure. The
reason why they struggle with antisocial
behavior is it's because dads are the
ones that underpin social behavior.
Pro-social behavior like helping,
sharing, caring, emotional regulation
and inhibition. You need to learn to
regulate your emotions and inhibit them
appropriately to get on in this world.
You can't go into school and you cannot
go into the workplace screaming your
head off when you get angry. That's not
how it works. We know that fathers when
it comes to education, both moms and
dads have a pretty equal input in terms
of academic success. But fathers have a
greater role in instilling appropriate
learning behavior, being in the
classroom, taking in what's going on,
cooperating with other people,
cooperating with the teacher, not
disturbing everybody else, that kind of
thing. They are the ones that underpin
that. How do they do that? Is it
chemically or is it It's several things.
It's partly chemical. So, we know that
ch one of the earliest behaviors you
will see a father do with a child from
about six months on is a thing called
rough and tumble play. Rough and tumble
play. Okay? And men seem to be drawn to
it. Not all men do it, and we'll talk
about the people who don't find it
comfortable, but most men when we just
tell them to go and do something with
their kid, they're not going to do some
coloring. They're going to take the kid
outside. They're going to throw it in
the air. They're going to chase it
around the garden. They're going to
airplane it over their head. They're
going to come in. They're going to
bounce on the sofa. They're going to do
a little wrestling. There's lots of
shrieking. There's lots of energy. And
we see pretty much all western fathers
do that. And the reason for it is
twofold. First of all, it's a very quick
way of bonding with your child. Dads
have to bond through interaction. They
don't have the head start of child's
birth, which is a whole tsunami of
bonding hormones. So, they do it through
interaction. And rough and double play
is a really timeefficient way to do it.
You you get a massive tidal weight of
bonding hormones because it's because
it's so physical. So you get betrayphin
because uh there's lots of touch,
there's lots of giggling. So all of
these things release dopamine, betray,
oxytocin. They bond you tightly to the
child you're playing with and the child
gets them as well. But also it's
starting to underpin some teaching about
social skills because the basis of all
social um behavior is reciprocity is
give and take. And when we play with
someone, it only remains fun if that
reciprocity is reasonably balanced. You
learn empathy because you've got to work
out, is this stuff fun for the other
person or are they no longer enjoying
this? Have I gone too far? You learn to
deal with challenge. Rough and tumble
play can be pretty extreme. It can be a
little bit painful. It can be a little
bit risky. And so you're saying to the
kid, assess the risk. Assess the risk.
Here's the challenge. Can you deal with
the challenge? And all of that underpins
that child's neural development first of
all, but also you're showing by example
social skills. I'm saying reciprocity.
But what's really interesting, and I
love this piece of research, and this
came out from a group in Israel headed
by Ruth Feldman, who is a pioneer of
neuroscience in terms of children and
their parents. she um she found that
dads and children have co-eolved to
prefer to play with each other.
Okay. So, when you're a parent, you will
get a peak in oxytocin from certain
behaviors you do with your child. You'll
always get a bit of oxytocin because
anything you do with them is probably
very nice apart from maybe the tantrums.
But if you're a dad, that peak in
oxytocin comes from playing with your
kid. And then when we look at kids when
they the peak in um oxytocin release
they get when they're playing with their
dads again isn't when daddy gives me a
cuddle which is nice but you know I
don't get a big release it's when I play
with daddy. So is that different to
women? Yes. So women get their peak in
activate of oxytocin released from
nurturing their children particularly
from hugging them. And kids get their
peak in oxytocin when they interact with
mom from mom's cuddles not from playing
with mom. So naturally kids kind of
gravitate towards dads when they want to
have fun. And dad, that's the kind of
thing he will choose to do with his
child. Something that's um physical,
something that's stimulatory. And that's
what's really interesting. And that's in
a way why dad's kind of got the moniker
of, oh, you're the fun parent. You do
all the fun stuff. But actually, play is
fundamental to a child's development.
Absolutely fundamental to their social
development and also building that
really critical bond with dad. If I was
to have a baby now, how would my body,
my my brain, my my body, how would it
change? Okay, it would change in two
ways. There's the biological changes you
would undergo. So this is something that
we didn't know about 20 years ago and I
and other colleagues around the world
have have looked into this and the
reason why we looked into it is because
as I said very rare to have human
fathering really rare 5% of mammals and
the way evolution works is it generally
doesn't cause a whole new behavior to
evolve without giving you some sort of
head start in being able to do it. And
so over time, in the last half a million
years, as fatherhood evolved, men's
brains change, their psychology changes,
their hormones change when they become
fathers to to give you that that prep to
be a parent. Um, so first of all, we see
hormonal changes. The the most studied
and I think probably the most
significant is the drop in testosterone
that occurs when you become a father. So
you will have already experienced a drop
in testosterone because you're in a
long-term relationship. No, no, I
haven't. Yes, you have.
So, when a man enters a long-term
relationship for a first for the first
time, he will experience a drop in
testosterone because testosterone is a
really great chemical uh if you're
dating because it makes you more
competitive and it makes you more
attractive if you if you're in a
heterosexual relationship. So, it makes
you more attractive. But when you start,
you know, living with someone or being
in a long-term relationship, we kind of
need you to shift your focus from the
horizon and looking for another date.
and we need you to focus on that that
one person because from an evolutionary
point of view that person is going to be
the person you have kids with and we'd
quite like you to stick around and look
after those kids. So that happens when
you become a father for the first time
it drops again and it can be up to 30%.
So you lose a third of your testosterone
and the reason for that again is we need
you to focus in on the family. We we
can't have you looking to the horizon
for another mate. We need to focus
because we know that children need input
from just more than just mom to survive.
This sounds all very monogous. I'll talk
about it in a minute. Okay. So, this is
so so you focus in on that child.
Testosterone is also um when it's very
high, it blocks the bonding hormones.
So, dopamine and oxytocin in particular
have less of an effect. So, the
testosterone drops also to enable you to
start bonding with that child because
you are you are behind in terms of
bonding with that child because mom's
gone through pregnancy in in most cases
and given birth. So, she's had a head
start. She's had a load of oxytocin,
dopamine, and beta endorphin during the
birth process. You haven't. So, so we
need to like release those hormones as
soon as we can. One of the ways we do
that is testosterone drops. So, oxytocin
and dopamine are more effective, which
explains why some fathers say that they
don't feel bonded to their child in the
early stages or before. Yeah, I'll
explain why that is as well in a minute.
So, that's oxytocin, dopamine. We also
know just generally from studies whether
men are fathers or not, men with lower
testosterone tend to be more motivated
to care for children. So even if you're
not a father, if we present you with a
crying baby, men with very high
testosterone, the reaction to that is
mainly aversive, like okay, just take it
away from me. And also they get quite
frustrated. They find it quite quite
difficult to deal with as a noise. Men
with low testosterone tend to be more
motivated to pick the baby up, try and
soo the baby and deal with it. And and
whilst it's a difficult noise to hear,
they tend not to experience negative
emotions in relation to it. That drop in
testosterone is really really important.
Over evolutionary time
we think that people were probably
socially monogous for a period of time
which matched the period of time they
needed to ensure that our child's going
to survive. So whilst in our you know in
our um culture it's like no you will
marry till you die, you will be monogous
till you die. In evolutionary history
that probably wasn't the case. Fathers
might have stuck around for probably at
least until uh childhood which is
between about 5 and 10. They might have
stayed along into into the teenage years
depending upon how difficult the
environment was. And also this doesn't
mean they weren't having sex somewhere
else. So this is social monogamy. We
also see changes in oxytocin rises. Uh
if you live with your pregnant partner,
it will start to rise in pregnancy as
well your partners. Um, and that's there
to make sure first of all that your bond
to your partner tightens because you're
about to introduce somebody new into
your relationship and it's not going to
be easy. So, we need that to be tight,
but it's also to start preparing you for
after birth. We know that vasop prein
also rises. Vasopressin is a sort of
form of oxytocin, but in non-human
mammals, it's associated with defense of
the nest. And we think in in male
humans, it's to do with protection and
motivation to protect that child. And
finally, we see an increase in a in a
parenting hormone known as prolactin.
And prolactin is only seen in males in
species that have investing fathers. And
prolactin again is a parenting hormone
that motivates you to care. So you go
through this massive change in hormones.
A lot of men say they don't notice the
drop in testosterone in terms of things
like strength. So I get a contact by a
lot of men saying, "But I I love weight
training. Is this going to ruin my No,
it's not. It doesn't do anything like
that. Think of the number of Olympic
athletes who have kids. You're fine."
Um, what it does do is it it it
increases your emotional vulnerability.
So quite often with fathers, you will
hear they're more empathetic after birth
and also they find it harder to deal
with emotionally difficult things
particularly like on the news. Suddenly
things on the news will make them cry
when they never cried before. Will they
ever get their testosterone levels back?
Only if you don't have contact with your child.
child.
So if you don't have contact with your
child, you don't have to co-reside with
your child. These studies have been done
across cultures including cultures where
co-resident doesn't occur. Um, as long
as you are in contact with your child,
no, they won't because you you are still
maintained in looking after that child.
If you lose contact with your child,
yes, they will go back up because the
evolutionary drive is to then reproduce
again. So, if I have a kid and then I
stick around and raise the kid,
assuming I stick around, my testosterone
levels will never get back to the level
it was before I had the kid. No, never.
I mean that's slightly I mean I you know
I'll love my future kid I'm sure I will
say to dads because they do worry about
and I understand why they worry about it
because they believe very much that
testosterone is the male hormone. It is
and it isn't you know women have
testosterone and it's it's one of the
sex hormones. It's not it really isn't
associated with things like stress. You
might find things like your
if you have a tendency to aggression,
you might find that drops a little bit
and as I say, you become more empathetic
and you become more emotionally
vulnerable, but it's really it's not
going to impact a huge amount
physiologically in you. So really don't
worry about it. And also you get the
most amazing rewarding bond with your
kid in return. So you drop the
testosterone, but you get this
astonishing bond. So it swings and
roundabouts. You said earlier that if
the father's not around, there's
implications for teenage mental health.
Yes. So because fathers underpin
resilience through starting with rough
and tumble play but carrying on through
that child's life and doing stimulatory
activities with that kid. They're the
ones that underpin mental resilience.
And obviously mental resilience is
particularly key for mental health also
because they underpin scaffolding the
child's ability to operate in the social
world. A lot of the disorders we see in
teenage um young people are associated
with social situations. So social
anxiety, eating disorders, self harm,
depression, loneliness, they tend to all
exist within the social sphere. And
because of that, that's why it's
actually the relationship you have with
your dad, particularly the attachment
relationship you have. So if it's a nice
secure attachment relationship, you are
much less likely to suffer from those
disorders and also particularly you know
how much time your dad spends with you
and inputs into you is important. So
kids are really interesting. They
measure their importance to their
parents in different ways. If you say to
them, "How do you know you're important
to your mom?" They'll say, "Well, my mom
does stuff for me. She makes sure I've
got my favorite cereal. She makes sure
that I get picked up from school and I
can have my playdates and she, you know,
makes sure my sports kit is washed." And
I mean, it's all terribly gender
specific. I do apologize, but this is
this is the data. If you say to the kid,
"How do you know you're important to
your dad? He spends time with me." And
we think it's probably cultural because
in our culture, dads are still more
likely to be out at work. So, the
precious thing you you have as a man is
your time. And if I give my time to you
as a child, particularly if I do
something you're interested in and I
accept you as an individual and say,
"Yeah, let's be enthusiastic about what
you want to do, then that is what underpins how you feel, how that how
underpins how you feel, how that how important that child feels, and that
important that child feels, and that underpins their self-esteem." Because I
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didn't realize is that being a founder with no money meant that I also had to
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That's shopify.com/bartlet. We talked at the top of this
We talked at the top of this conversation about how gender roles have
conversation about how gender roles have shifted and how more women are college
shifted and how more women are college educated and more women are in work and
educated and more women are in work and they're climbing the economic ladder.
they're climbing the economic ladder. This also means that mothers are more
This also means that mothers are more likely to be around less in such a world
likely to be around less in such a world especially when we consider the way that
especially when we consider the way that the offices have been designed and the
the offices have been designed and the working week has been designed. Have you
working week has been designed. Have you thought much about the implications of
thought much about the implications of an absent mother? Because we talked a
an absent mother? Because we talked a lot about the absent father. Yeah. But
lot about the absent father. Yeah. But an absent mother or a mother who puts
an absent mother or a mother who puts their child into into daycare or is
their child into into daycare or is working five five days a week. I must
working five five days a week. I must admit I haven't because I I don't study
admit I haven't because I I don't study mothers. Mothers is a massive amount of
mothers. Mothers is a massive amount of work done on uh and I'm kind of filling
work done on uh and I'm kind of filling the gaps in terms of fathers to be
the gaps in terms of fathers to be absolutely honest. The roles of a mom
absolutely honest. The roles of a mom and a dad in a heterosexual relationship
and a dad in a heterosexual relationship have evolved to kind of complement each
have evolved to kind of complement each other. So they don't mirror each other.
other. So they don't mirror each other. They don't do the same thing. Um they
They don't do the same thing. Um they complement each other. So what happens
complement each other. So what happens when we take one of those away for that
when we take one of those away for that child? There are two things to say to
child? There are two things to say to that. First of all, in most children's
that. First of all, in most children's lives, we talk about single parent
lives, we talk about single parent families and what we're talking about is
families and what we're talking about is a single parent raising that child. But
a single parent raising that child. But actually, if we look outside that that
actually, if we look outside that that particular diad, that particular couple,
particular diad, that particular couple, and we look at who else is inputting
and we look at who else is inputting into that child's life. So quite often,
into that child's life. So quite often, I study it as obviously in relation to
I study it as obviously in relation to absent fathers, what we tend to find is
absent fathers, what we tend to find is that child has other people in their
that child has other people in their life who are men who input, even if the
life who are men who input, even if the mom hasn't recognized it. One of the
mom hasn't recognized it. One of the most powerful studies I read wasn't
most powerful studies I read wasn't saying to a mom, "Where are the father
saying to a mom, "Where are the father figures in your child's life?" It was
figures in your child's life?" It was saying to the kid, "Who are the
saying to the kid, "Who are the important men in your life?" And the kid
important men in your life?" And the kid would go, "Oh, my football coach or my
would go, "Oh, my football coach or my math teacher or my mate John's dad or
math teacher or my mate John's dad or they often recognize father figures.
they often recognize father figures. They don't call them that, but they
They don't call them that, but they recognize men in their lives who they
recognize men in their lives who they look up to, who support them, who the
look up to, who support them, who the parents or the mom doesn't even think
parents or the mom doesn't even think about. So that's the first thing to say.
about. So that's the first thing to say. Secondly, we know with gay fathers where
Secondly, we know with gay fathers where a mom isn't in a caretaking role, the
a mom isn't in a caretaking role, the brain adapts.
brain adapts. Okay. So, what happens if we put um a
Okay. So, what happens if we put um a heterosexual couple in a scanner? Yeah.
heterosexual couple in a scanner? Yeah. And we say, "Look, look at look at this
And we say, "Look, look at look at this video of your child." We see different
video of your child." We see different peaks in activation in the brain. So, in
peaks in activation in the brain. So, in mom, we see a peak in activation at the
mom, we see a peak in activation at the core of the brain here. Okay? Very
core of the brain here. Okay? Very ancient. It's partly there because
ancient. It's partly there because mothering is as old as time. So, it's in
mothering is as old as time. So, it's in the ancient unconscious part of the
the ancient unconscious part of the brain. This is where nurture is,
brain. This is where nurture is, attachment, risk detection, all those
attachment, risk detection, all those things you need to be able to do.
things you need to be able to do. Uh, and then we get that peak there.
Uh, and then we get that peak there. However, if we look at dad's activation,
However, if we look at dad's activation, he does have some activation here.
he does have some activation here. Obviously, he does. He's very capable of
Obviously, he does. He's very capable of nurturing and protecting. But actually,
nurturing and protecting. But actually, the peak in activation is in the
the peak in activation is in the neoortex. This is this bit of the brain.
neoortex. This is this bit of the brain. This is the conscious brain. It's much
This is the conscious brain. It's much younger. Um, and that shows you that
younger. Um, and that shows you that fathering is younger. It's about half a
fathering is younger. It's about half a million years old. And we see activation
million years old. And we see activation here in the social part of the brain.
here in the social part of the brain. Okay. So this is the prefrontal cortex
Okay. So this is the prefrontal cortex which is here and the orbital frontal
which is here and the orbital frontal cortex which is kind of above your eyes
cortex which is kind of above your eyes and that's where all your social skills
and that's where all your social skills sit your ability to do everything
sit your ability to do everything socially. And then at the back of the
socially. And then at the back of the brain we have two areas at the back of
brain we have two areas at the back of the brain which are linked to empathy
the brain which are linked to empathy which is the basis of relationships and
which is the basis of relationships and mentalizing. So that's that ability to
mentalizing. So that's that ability to know someone's intention. You need it
know someone's intention. You need it just to have a conversation but you also
just to have a conversation but you also need it uh to spot somebody who's going
need it uh to spot somebody who's going to maybe do you bad in some way, cheat,
to maybe do you bad in some way, cheat, lie, whatever those sorts of things.
lie, whatever those sorts of things. Again important in the social world and
Again important in the social world and his peing activations are there. Again,
his peing activations are there. Again, mom does have some peaks in activ some
mom does have some peaks in activ some activation here, but it's not as
activation here, but it's not as intense. And that underpins those two
intense. And that underpins those two different roles. So, dad's attachment is
different roles. So, dad's attachment is neo. Mom's attachment is very ancient
neo. Mom's attachment is very ancient and nurturing. If you have a gay primary
and nurturing. If you have a gay primary caretaking father without a mother
caretaking father without a mother involved, what you see is you see both
involved, what you see is you see both bits light up at the same intensity. So,
bits light up at the same intensity. So, he gets the dad activation obviously
he gets the dad activation obviously being a man, but he also gets the mom's
being a man, but he also gets the mom's activation. And what's really absolutely
activation. And what's really absolutely fascinating is if we look at that brain,
fascinating is if we look at that brain, there is a new a brand new neural
there is a new a brand new neural connection between
connection between this bit of the brain here and this bit
this bit of the brain here and this bit of the brain here. So they can
of the brain here. So they can communicate. So is the is a woman not
communicate. So is the is a woman not playing a unique role at all in raising?
playing a unique role at all in raising? Well, arguably neither is a man because
Well, arguably neither is a man because if we look in if we were to look in
if we look in if we were to look in probably uh a gay woman's brain, we'd
probably uh a gay woman's brain, we'd see the same thing. And it's not saying
see the same thing. And it's not saying that they're not paying unique roles in
that they're not paying unique roles in a heterosexual relationship. They
a heterosexual relationship. They absolutely do. But what it's showing
absolutely do. But what it's showing you, human children are incredibly
you, human children are incredibly difficult to raise. They are pretty
difficult to raise. They are pretty much, apart from maybe dolphins and and
much, apart from maybe dolphins and and a bit of an ape, um the most intense kid
a bit of an ape, um the most intense kid to raise because they're because they're
to raise because they're because they're born so helpless. Okay? And the only way
born so helpless. Okay? And the only way a human baby can survive is if it gets
a human baby can survive is if it gets enough input. So the human brain, the
enough input. So the human brain, the human parenting brain is astonishingly
human parenting brain is astonishingly plastic and it will adapt to make sure
plastic and it will adapt to make sure that that child gets what it needs. And
that that child gets what it needs. And so where we've got one of the adults
so where we've got one of the adults missing, mom or dad, it will adapt to
missing, mom or dad, it will adapt to say, okay, the remaining adult or
say, okay, the remaining adult or whether even if there's two dads or two
whether even if there's two dads or two moms, that primary caretaking one, their
moms, that primary caretaking one, their brain will alter to make sure that kid
brain will alter to make sure that kid start gets what it needs. It kind of
start gets what it needs. It kind of goes to the top of what we were saying
goes to the top of what we were saying about do you need dads then? Because if
about do you need dads then? Because if you know, we talked about the role that
you know, we talked about the role that dads play in play, but also I've read
dads play in play, but also I've read your research around the impact that a
your research around the impact that a father has on um a kid's ability to
father has on um a kid's ability to speak. Yes.
speak. Yes. is better in children who had a father
is better in children who had a father present. But if you could just have two
present. But if you could just have two women doing it, doesn't that mean that
women doing it, doesn't that mean that we don't necessarily need the father?
we don't necessarily need the father? It's not that you don't necessarily need
It's not that you don't necessarily need the father. I mean, the same argument
the father. I mean, the same argument say you don't necessarily need a mother
say you don't necessarily need a mother in a gay parenting relationship with the
in a gay parenting relationship with the fathers. What it's saying is
fathers. What it's saying is in a heterosexual relationship we get
in a heterosexual relationship we get this complimentarity. We can't get that
this complimentarity. We can't get that in a gay relationship. So what we've got
in a gay relationship. So what we've got instead is this slice to adaptation.
instead is this slice to adaptation. Unfortunately, the studies haven't been
Unfortunately, the studies haven't been done sufficiently on gay parenting,
done sufficiently on gay parenting, which is which is a massive omission.
which is which is a massive omission. I'm afraid science always starts with
I'm afraid science always starts with heterosexual. Yeah. Um and narrows it
heterosexual. Yeah. Um and narrows it down. Um that we don't know exactly
down. Um that we don't know exactly whether for example
whether for example a gay parent, two male parents, maybe
a gay parent, two male parents, maybe there's a little bit missing because of
there's a little bit missing because of a lack of female input or whether with
a lack of female input or whether with two female parents is a lack of because
two female parents is a lack of because there's no male direct male input. The
there's no male direct male input. The other thing to say is around these
other thing to say is around these families you pro you know I can there
families you pro you know I can there are very few gay parenting families
are very few gay parenting families where there are no women involved at all
where there are no women involved at all and there are very few lesbian couples
and there are very few lesbian couples who have no male involvement at all. So
who have no male involvement at all. So we it's a very complex mess really in
we it's a very complex mess really in terms of what the inputs are. But I
terms of what the inputs are. But I think the the the study that discovered
think the the the study that discovered this were just astonished at the amazing
this were just astonished at the amazing plasticity of the brain that that a man
plasticity of the brain that that a man who did not go through pregnancy and
who did not go through pregnancy and childirth and is does not have this
childirth and is does not have this evolutionarily ancient instinct in terms
evolutionarily ancient instinct in terms of motherhood could actually adopt this
of motherhood could actually adopt this role and we would see this activation.
role and we would see this activation. That's in a way the biggest takehome
That's in a way the biggest takehome from it is that it will adapt in such a
from it is that it will adapt in such a powerful way to make sure that child
powerful way to make sure that child gets what it needs. So do we need
gets what it needs. So do we need fathers? Yes.
fathers? Yes. Why? What is it that the fathers bring
Why? What is it that the fathers bring that can't be done by some other means
that can't be done by some other means though? Because we don't yet know first
though? Because we don't yet know first of all whether these adaptations in the
of all whether these adaptations in the female brain for example are enough
female brain for example are enough because that research hasn't been done
because that research hasn't been done and secondly there are very few children
and secondly there are very few children who don't have a father actually if you
who don't have a father actually if you look at their social grouping. Now it
look at their social grouping. Now it might not be a father who co-resides. It
might not be a father who co-resides. It might not be a father who they see that
might not be a father who they see that frequently, but it could be, you know,
frequently, but it could be, you know, and when we remember we're talking about
and when we remember we're talking about grandfathers, uncles, teachers, coaches,
grandfathers, uncles, teachers, coaches, whoever it might be. It might be a whole
whoever it might be. It might be a whole team of men who step in and out at
team of men who step in and out at different times. It's very rare that a
different times. It's very rare that a child doesn't have any male input in
child doesn't have any male input in their life. And that is what a father
their life. And that is what a father is. It's not your biological father.
is. It's not your biological father. So, is it that we need a father figure
So, is it that we need a father figure around, but we don't necessarily need a
around, but we don't necessarily need a father in the home? you do not have to
father in the home? you do not have to co-reside. One of the things that drives
co-reside. One of the things that drives me slightly around the bend is when
me slightly around the bend is when people talk about absent fathers.
people talk about absent fathers. Um sometimes the father is truly absent.
Um sometimes the father is truly absent. Absolutely. But in some cases he's not.
Absolutely. But in some cases he's not. He just doesn't live there. And that's
He just doesn't live there. And that's what we've got to be very clear about.
what we've got to be very clear about. You do not have to co-reside. And there
You do not have to co-reside. And there are cultures in the world where
are cultures in the world where co-resident is not the norm. And so it's
co-resident is not the norm. And so it's about being in your child's life. You do
about being in your child's life. You do not have to live with them. Are we
not have to live with them. Are we getting more fatherless as a western
getting more fatherless as a western society?
society? It would seem so at the moment in terms
It would seem so at the moment in terms of biological fathers. Yes.
of biological fathers. Yes. Unfortunately, and that's one of the
Unfortunately, and that's one of the things that we really need to to focus
things that we really need to to focus on. I've recently become a trustee of a
on. I've recently become a trustee of a new policy unit which is the center for
new policy unit which is the center for research into men and boys. And my role
research into men and boys. And my role there is to look at the role of fathers,
there is to look at the role of fathers, how we support fathers, how we support
how we support fathers, how we support boys in having male figures in their
boys in having male figures in their lives. because we are seeing because
lives. because we are seeing because divorce has become more culturally
divorce has become more culturally acceptable possibly because of longer
acceptable possibly because of longer lifespans and relationships aren't
lifespans and relationships aren't lasting as long. There's lots of reasons
lasting as long. There's lots of reasons why we are getting more children who do
why we are getting more children who do not have fathers in their lives. It's
not have fathers in their lives. It's also a major issue in the US. I you know
also a major issue in the US. I you know I know you know Richard Reeves and I
I know you know Richard Reeves and I work with Richard Reeves on it and that
work with Richard Reeves on it and that is issue and that's why we have to start
is issue and that's why we have to start looking in a creative way about what a
looking in a creative way about what a father is because those kids don't
father is because those kids don't necessarily have their biological father
necessarily have their biological father in life but they need somebody and that
in life but they need somebody and that might be encouraging links within the
might be encouraging links within the community. It might be helping single
community. It might be helping single mothers identify those male figures
mothers identify those male figures within their environment and supporting
within their environment and supporting those male figures and coming forward.
those male figures and coming forward. It might be that we need more
It might be that we need more organizations like Lads and Need Dads
organizations like Lads and Need Dads which is an organization in the UK that
which is an organization in the UK that provides male father figures, mentors to
provides male father figures, mentors to boys who don't have a father in their
boys who don't have a father in their life. Is there anything better than a
life. Is there anything better than a biological father? Yes, a father. There
biological father? Yes, a father. There is. So even if it's a sort of a
is. So even if it's a sort of a stepfather or if it's because you don't
stepfather or if it's because you don't get to become a father indeed you don't
get to become a father indeed you don't get to become a mother just because you
get to become a mother just because you happen to conceive a child. So from a
happen to conceive a child. So from a development perspective, it doesn't
development perspective, it doesn't matter if there's no difference in
matter if there's no difference in biological fathers versus, you know,
biological fathers versus, you know, Dave who took took care of me because
Dave who took took care of me because the changes we spoke about happen
the changes we spoke about happen whether you're biologically related to
whether you're biologically related to that child or not because they happen
that child or not because they happen through interaction. So any man who
through interaction. So any man who steps in and does the job well see the
steps in and does the job well see the hormone changes, we'll see the brain
hormone changes, we'll see the brain changes which we we haven't spoken
changes which we we haven't spoken about, um we'll see the psychological
about, um we'll see the psychological changes, they will see them all because
changes, they will see them all because they happen through interaction. So you
they happen through interaction. So you don't you're not as a biological father
don't you're not as a biological father the moment you conceive that child
the moment you conceive that child suddenly get this mysterious ability to
suddenly get this mysterious ability to be a father. You don't it happens
be a father. You don't it happens because you happen to be interacting and
because you happen to be interacting and live and and and inputting into that
live and and and inputting into that child's life. So no there is no
child's life. So no there is no hierarchy.
hierarchy. It's are you doing the job? Yes I am.
It's are you doing the job? Yes I am. Are you doing it in a good and healthy
Are you doing it in a good and healthy and positive way? Yes I am. Okay. You
and positive way? Yes I am. Okay. You get to be dad. So you really you're
get to be dad. So you really you're making the case for father figures.
making the case for father figures. Yeah. in a child's life versus and and a
Yeah. in a child's life versus and and a and a child growing up without a father
and a child growing up without a father figure at all, yes, is going to have
figure at all, yes, is going to have worse outcomes. There is a risk. They
worse outcomes. There is a risk. They won't necessarily, but the statistics
won't necessarily, but the statistics are quite powerful in terms of those
are quite powerful in terms of those outcomes. There was a study done
outcomes. There was a study done recently in the UK by the Center for
recently in the UK by the Center for Justice called Lost Boys and that was
Justice called Lost Boys and that was looking at and and one aspect of that
looking at and and one aspect of that was looking at boys and their outcomes
was looking at boys and their outcomes if they don't have a father figure and
if they don't have a father figure and it is quite powerful in terms of the
it is quite powerful in terms of the increased risk of having negative
increased risk of having negative outcomes. So if you're in a lesbian
outcomes. So if you're in a lesbian relationship
relationship and you're so two women,
and you're so two women, are you saying that you really
are you saying that you really should make sure that the child is
should make sure that the child is exposed to a father figure? Yeah, I
exposed to a father figure? Yeah, I would say that. I would say that. I
would say that. I would say that. I mean, some people I get attacked for
mean, some people I get attacked for saying things like that and I'm not
saying things like that and I'm not trying to say there are gender roles or
trying to say there are gender roles or any of those sorts of things, but we h
any of those sorts of things, but we h children have evolved. The reason why
children have evolved. The reason why human fatherhood evolved is because
human fatherhood evolved is because children evolved to be brought up by a
children evolved to be brought up by a group of people. And part of that group
group of people. And part of that group of people was a father figure. Now, as
of people was a father figure. Now, as we see from cultures around the world,
we see from cultures around the world, it does not have to be the biological
it does not have to be the biological father, but they have a father figure or
father, but they have a father figure or a team of father figures. It doesn't
a team of father figures. It doesn't have to be one person. It could be
have to be one person. It could be several people. And does that go the
several people. And does that go the other way? If you're in if two men
other way? If you're in if two men married, I would always advise that that
married, I would always advise that that that's how children to have those two
that's how children to have those two inputs. So, find those women in your
inputs. So, find those women in your life and and ask them to step in and do
life and and ask them to step in and do that. And and another anomaly that we
that. And and another anomaly that we hear a lot is that it's particularly
hear a lot is that it's particularly important for boys. Actually,
important for boys. Actually, it is critical for boys, but arguably
it is critical for boys, but arguably it's kind of touch and go as whether
it's kind of touch and go as whether it's more critical for girls. Um the
it's more critical for girls. Um the data coming out about
data coming out about daughters and the impact that fathers
daughters and the impact that fathers have on daughters is pretty powerful
have on daughters is pretty powerful stuff. And so it's it's not just that we
stuff. And so it's it's not just that we need these father figures so boys know
need these father figures so boys know how to grow up to be, you know, positive
how to grow up to be, you know, positive masculine figures, to be men, whatever
masculine figures, to be men, whatever it might be. It's also really critical
it might be. It's also really critical for girls that they have a father figure
for girls that they have a father figure around. What's the the data coming out
around. What's the the data coming out regarding the dad daughter bond? So what
regarding the dad daughter bond? So what we're finding is um daughters who grow
we're finding is um daughters who grow up with uh a secure attachment to their
up with uh a secure attachment to their father um they have increased abilities
father um they have increased abilities in or increased success in terms of
in or increased success in terms of academics in terms of education. They
academics in terms of education. They have increased career success. They tend
have increased career success. They tend to have much better me uh mental health.
to have much better me uh mental health. They tend to be much better at
They tend to be much better at relationships. They tend to have less
relationships. They tend to have less risky particularly sexual relationships.
risky particularly sexual relationships. And they have just better well-being
And they have just better well-being scores. And they are much more likely as
scores. And they are much more likely as I said to have stable good relationships
I said to have stable good relationships in their in their older life in their
in their in their older life in their adult life. When you think about society
adult life. When you think about society and how we're forming our relationships,
and how we're forming our relationships, especially around child rearing. Yes.
especially around child rearing. Yes. What are we increasingly getting wrong
What are we increasingly getting wrong here? I spoke to Erica Commisser. And
here? I spoke to Erica Commisser. And she's very passionate about the
she's very passionate about the detrimental impact of daycare, right?
detrimental impact of daycare, right? because she feels that the mother's
because she feels that the mother's plays a critical role in those first two
plays a critical role in those first two years and then the father plays a
years and then the father plays a critical role beyond from about two
critical role beyond from about two years onwards when the kid starts to get
years onwards when the kid starts to get into that play phase. I would argue with
into that play phase. I would argue with her on that point but okay which point
her on that point but okay which point would you argue on the second point?
would you argue on the second point? Yeah, that is critical from the moment
Yeah, that is critical from the moment that child is born. Um and I I get quite
that child is born. Um and I I get quite upset when I get father s I met a father
upset when I get father s I met a father the other day at an event. He I think
the other day at an event. He I think his baby was six months old and he was a
his baby was six months old and he was a he was a a dad worker this guy. He
he was a a dad worker this guy. He worked with dads. He was a he was a
worked with dads. He was a he was a community worker who worked with with
community worker who worked with with dads with older kids. He said, "Oh, I've
dads with older kids. He said, "Oh, I've had my I was like, "Congratulations." He
had my I was like, "Congratulations." He went, "Yeah, but you know, I know I'm
went, "Yeah, but you know, I know I'm not particularly important until, you
not particularly important until, you know, until baby's like, you know, at
know, until baby's like, you know, at least 18 months, two years." So, I'm
least 18 months, two years." So, I'm just changing nappies, but I know that
just changing nappies, but I know that I'm not I'm not really doing much. And I
I'm not I'm not really doing much. And I was just like, "Oh my god, I literally
was just like, "Oh my god, I literally cannot believe this man is saying this,
cannot believe this man is saying this, bearing in mind what he does for a
bearing in mind what he does for a living." I was like, "You are absolutely
living." I was like, "You are absolutely critical. From the moment that baby is
critical. From the moment that baby is born, you are critical." Why? Because
born, you are critical." Why? Because the baby's brain is growing. babies are
the baby's brain is growing. babies are b so human babies are born months before
b so human babies are born months before they should be and the reason for that
they should be and the reason for that is because two anatomical anomalies we
is because two anatomical anomalies we are bipedal and we have an enormous
are bipedal and we have an enormous brain at full size our brain is six
brain at full size our brain is six times bigger than it should be for a
times bigger than it should be for a mammal of our body weight it's highly
mammal of our body weight it's highly encphilized so enphilization is all this
encphilized so enphilization is all this folded and folded and folded so it's
folded and folded and folded so it's folded like this because we've got a ram
folded like this because we've got a ram it into our skull if you look at the
it into our skull if you look at the brain of a mouse it's smooth so when we
brain of a mouse it's smooth so when we became bipeedal about fully bipedal
became bipeedal about fully bipedal about sort of 1.8 8 million years ago.
about sort of 1.8 8 million years ago. Bipedal meaning two legs. If you look at
Bipedal meaning two legs. If you look at at something that walks on four legs,
at something that walks on four legs, like an ape, a chimp, who's our close,
like an ape, a chimp, who's our close, their their legs are quite wide apart,
their their legs are quite wide apart, so their birth canal is really broad.
so their birth canal is really broad. Um, ours is really narrow because we've
Um, ours is really narrow because we've had to come in like this to to maintain
had to come in like this to to maintain being able to stand upright. So, if we
being able to stand upright. So, if we tried to birth our babies when their
tried to birth our babies when their brains were nearly fully grown, like
brains were nearly fully grown, like happens in other apes, mom would die,
happens in other apes, mom would die, baby would die, and our species would
baby would die, and our species would have died out a very long time ago. So,
have died out a very long time ago. So, about 1.8 8 million years ago, we we
about 1.8 8 million years ago, we we reached a threshold where the brain had
reached a threshold where the brain had to do some growing after we were born.
to do some growing after we were born. And the way that we dealt with that was
And the way that we dealt with that was we birthed our babies early. We selected
we birthed our babies early. We selected to birth our babies early. And that's
to birth our babies early. And that's why they're so completely helpless.
why they're so completely helpless. Because if you look at a chimp baby, a
Because if you look at a chimp baby, a chimp baby's pretty mobile just after
chimp baby's pretty mobile just after it's born. It's got pretty good motor
it's born. It's got pretty good motor function. It can hold on to stuff. It
function. It can hold on to stuff. It can do various things. Can't feed
can do various things. Can't feed itself, but it can. Um whereas human
itself, but it can. Um whereas human babies, they can't do anything for
babies, they can't do anything for themselves. They literally can't. They
themselves. They literally can't. They can't focus. They can't hold their head
can't focus. They can't hold their head up. They can't move. They can't
up. They can't move. They can't coordinate their limbs. They can't clean
coordinate their limbs. They can't clean themselves. They can't do anything. And
themselves. They can't do anything. And that's because they're born far too
that's because they're born far too early. They should be in months longer
early. They should be in months longer essentially. So, we have this period of
essentially. So, we have this period of rapid brain growth after we're born. And
rapid brain growth after we're born. And because the main bit of the brain that's
because the main bit of the brain that's growing at this point is this massive
growing at this point is this massive preffrontal cortex, which is the social
preffrontal cortex, which is the social bit. Um, the environment in which you
bit. Um, the environment in which you grow up is critical. And who is really
grow up is critical. And who is really important in the social bit? The dad. So
important in the social bit? The dad. So from the moment your baby is born and
from the moment your baby is born and this is growing, dad needs to be having
this is growing, dad needs to be having an input because this is where it's
an input because this is where it's growing. Mom is also obviously vital,
growing. Mom is also obviously vital, but we have to have both parents
but we have to have both parents involved or you have to have that input
involved or you have to have that input at that point. So these dads who believe
at that point. So these dads who believe or people who believe that dad's only
or people who believe that dad's only important after two years, I'm I'm
important after two years, I'm I'm sorry, you have a fundamental
sorry, you have a fundamental misunderstanding of how the brain
misunderstanding of how the brain develops and of child development
develops and of child development because you need to start teaching that
because you need to start teaching that child by inputting into that child by by
child by inputting into that child by by giving that sensory input in particular.
giving that sensory input in particular. Human babies need a lot of touch. They
Human babies need a lot of touch. They need a lot of smell. They need a lot of
need a lot of smell. They need a lot of all that kind of thing. You need to be
all that kind of thing. You need to be doing that as early as possible because
doing that as early as possible because this is growing from the moment it comes
this is growing from the moment it comes out. Is it fair to say that in that 0ero
out. Is it fair to say that in that 0ero to2 phase, mothers are more important?
to2 phase, mothers are more important? No, because they do different things.
No, because they do different things. They do different things. Mothers tend
They do different things. Mothers tend to be more involved partly because of um
to be more involved partly because of um the fact that from a biological point of
the fact that from a biological point of view, women give birth. Um if you're
view, women give birth. Um if you're breastfeeding, they're the only ones who
breastfeeding, they're the only ones who can do that. So we are tied in terms of
can do that. So we are tied in terms of um having to do that. The other thing I
um having to do that. The other thing I would say is also giving birth is a
would say is also giving birth is a really really tricky thing to do and
really really tricky thing to do and it's physically and emotionally utterly
it's physically and emotionally utterly draining. So you need a period of
draining. So you need a period of recovery um and therefore you you are
recovery um and therefore you you are the one who's basically at home
the one who's basically at home particester
context a baby from the moment it's born generally in some cultures will be cared
generally in some cultures will be cared for by both mom and dad. It's only
for by both mom and dad. It's only because we have this capitalist system
because we have this capitalist system where someone's got to go and earn some
where someone's got to go and earn some money that dads don't. So I wouldn't
money that dads don't. So I wouldn't necessarily argue moms are more
necessarily argue moms are more important. They are in a position from a
important. They are in a position from a biological point of view that they're
biological point of view that they're going to be there. They are just going
going to be there. They are just going to be there. And in our system that
to be there. And in our system that means somebody else it doesn't have to
means somebody else it doesn't have to be there and that's dad and he'll go and
be there and that's dad and he'll go and earn the money to support the family.
earn the money to support the family. But you they need the input from both.
But you they need the input from both. Is it fair to say then that the primary
Is it fair to say then that the primary caregiver is the most important? And
caregiver is the most important? And what I mean by that is the baby's going
what I mean by that is the baby's going to form strongest attachment to the
to form strongest attachment to the person taking most care of it and
person taking most care of it and therefore its attachment style will be
therefore its attachment style will be shaped by the relationship to that
shaped by the relationship to that primary caregiver. It's really tricky to
primary caregiver. It's really tricky to say because yes, primary caregivers are
say because yes, primary caregivers are really important in terms of being most
really important in terms of being most of the environment of development in
of the environment of development in those early days, particularly if this
those early days, particularly if this what we call I don't really like calling
what we call I don't really like calling them secondary care, but the other
them secondary care, but the other parent is out and about and therefore
parent is out and about and therefore not present. The environment in which a
not present. The environment in which a baby grows isn't just about who's
baby grows isn't just about who's caretaking them, who's giving them a
caretaking them, who's giving them a hug. One of the things I really always
hug. One of the things I really always talk to parents to be about is your
talk to parents to be about is your relationship builds that environment as
relationship builds that environment as well. So parents are actually babies are
well. So parents are actually babies are also actually taking on board the
also actually taking on board the dynamics between their parents.
dynamics between their parents. And one of the things that I always um
And one of the things that I always um try to get into anti courses is
try to get into anti courses is preparing the parenting relationship
preparing the parenting relationship because actually you need to build an
because actually you need to build an environment which is
environment which is as calm and as reciprocal and as safe as
as calm and as reciprocal and as safe as you can do for that child. And that
you can do for that child. And that means for example before you have a baby
means for example before you have a baby learning good conflict management style.
learning good conflict management style. You're going to have an argument. Okay?
You're going to have an argument. Okay? It's not about having an argument. It's
It's not about having an argument. It's about the reconciliation of that
about the reconciliation of that argument. It's about the resolution of
argument. It's about the resolution of that argument. So, it's about that. It's
that argument. So, it's about that. It's about understanding difference. You're
about understanding difference. You're going to parent in different ways. That
going to parent in different ways. That can be really challenging to some
can be really challenging to some couples. They find it very difficult.
couples. They find it very difficult. So, you prepare them for that. So, the
So, you prepare them for that. So, the environment is not just the primary
environment is not just the primary caretaker. And that's what's fascinating
caretaker. And that's what's fascinating about humans is human babies is it's a
about humans is human babies is it's a nap saying, it's a true saying are
nap saying, it's a true saying are raised by a village. So, the environment
raised by a village. So, the environment of development isn't just the primary
of development isn't just the primary caretaken parent. It's everybody who's
caretaken parent. It's everybody who's around that child as well. And in our in
around that child as well. And in our in our world that might be family, that
our world that might be family, that might be friends where we live greater
might be friends where we live greater distances from our family. So sometimes
distances from our family. So sometimes that's more professionals that have an
that's more professionals that have an input into that child's life. I guess
input into that child's life. I guess I'm trying to figure out what's optimal
I'm trying to figure out what's optimal in my relationship cuz I'm probably
in my relationship cuz I'm probably about to head into parenthood. Yeah. And
about to head into parenthood. Yeah. And I'm trying to understand, you know, I'm
I'm trying to understand, you know, I'm trying to understand how what I should
trying to understand how what I should configure my situation. Yes. In those
configure my situation. Yes. In those early years um with my partner and me,
early years um with my partner and me, we both work. Um my job is requires me
we both work. Um my job is requires me to fly a little bit more than hers. um
to fly a little bit more than hers. um but just just because that's the way
but just just because that's the way that I've chosen my my career to be. She
that I've chosen my my career to be. She spends more time at home but still very
spends more time at home but still very very busy, still flying around the world
very busy, still flying around the world doing her own thing. So I'm thinking
doing her own thing. So I'm thinking when that baby arrives, what should we
when that baby arrives, what should we based on everything you know about
based on everything you know about humans and human history and the human
humans and human history and the human brain and everything that's
brain and everything that's interconnected? What's the optimal
interconnected? What's the optimal optimal scenario for me and my partner?
optimal scenario for me and my partner? Do you know something? It's really hard
Do you know something? It's really hard because what I always say to parents
because what I always say to parents because parents are really good at
because parents are really good at beating themselves up is happy parents
beating themselves up is happy parents make happy babies. So, first of all, you
make happy babies. So, first of all, you have to do what works for you and
have to do what works for you and everybody's circumstances are different.
everybody's circumstances are different. And there are needs that everybody's
And there are needs that everybody's going to have. So, yes, your baby has
going to have. So, yes, your baby has needs in terms of nurturance, in terms
needs in terms of nurturance, in terms of support, in terms of building
of support, in terms of building attachments, but your baby also needs a
attachments, but your baby also needs a roof over their head, and they need food
roof over their head, and they need food on the table, and they need all that,
on the table, and they need all that, and they need whoever's caring for them
and they need whoever's caring for them to be healthy. So, it really depends
to be healthy. So, it really depends upon what works for you. In an ideal
upon what works for you. In an ideal world, somebody asked me the other day,
world, somebody asked me the other day, because at the moment in the UK, we're
because at the moment in the UK, we're having a lot of campaigns about
having a lot of campaigns about paternity leave. Um, in the UK at the
paternity leave. Um, in the UK at the moment you can have two weeks, which is
moment you can have two weeks, which is frankly laughable. Um, and the dad can
frankly laughable. Um, and the dad can have two weeks. The dad can have two
have two weeks. The dad can have two weeks. Not if you're self-employed, but
weeks. Not if you're self-employed, but if you're employed, um, if you're
if you're employed, um, if you're self-employed, you're kind of on your
self-employed, you're kind of on your own. We're trying to push the government
own. We're trying to push the government to take it to six weeks, which isn't our
to take it to six weeks, which isn't our ideal, but it's how far we think we
ideal, but it's how far we think we might be able to push them. Somebody
might be able to push them. Somebody asked me the other day, what would be
asked me the other day, what would be the ideal for a dad? I'm afraid I
the ideal for a dad? I'm afraid I started at 6 months. Please, that would
started at 6 months. Please, that would be lovely. In places like Sweden, the
be lovely. In places like Sweden, the dad gets a year. Um because babies
dad gets a year. Um because babies develop with different inputs from
develop with different inputs from different people. I know you're in a
different people. I know you're in a heterosexual couple. So he your baby
heterosexual couple. So he your baby will need your dad's input and mom's
will need your dad's input and mom's input and they will need those in every
input and they will need those in every whatever configuration works for you. So
whatever configuration works for you. So it might be that at some period
it might be that at some period particularly after child birth and
particularly after child birth and stuff, your partner is going to have to
stuff, your partner is going to have to have time off. She is not going to, you
have time off. She is not going to, you know, it's very hard to race back to
know, it's very hard to race back to work after you've had a baby. Some women
work after you've had a baby. Some women manage it. I think they're astonishing.
manage it. I think they're astonishing. I certainly couldn't have done it. So
I certainly couldn't have done it. So that's fine. You go do that. but that
that's fine. You go do that. but that she's going to need a period of time.
she's going to need a period of time. But then are you in a situation where
But then are you in a situation where you can work a little bit flexibly? So
you can work a little bit flexibly? So is there is there a point where you can
is there is there a point where you can say okay you go and do some work and
say okay you go and do some work and I'll take the baby for a bit and you
I'll take the baby for a bit and you switch that way. Now obviously if the
switch that way. Now obviously if the mom is breastfeeding it's harder because
mom is breastfeeding it's harder because she is tied more to the baby. You can
she is tied more to the baby. You can express milk as much as you like but
express milk as much as you like but it's quite difficult as a breastfeeding
it's quite difficult as a breastfeeding mother to go off on a work trip for a
mother to go off on a work trip for a week. So so the first point there is
week. So so the first point there is really that she's probably going to need
really that she's probably going to need to take some time. She is going to need
to take some time. She is going to need to take some time unless she is in a
to take some time unless she is in a position where she really thinks that
position where she really thinks that she is going to be capable of physically
she is going to be capable of physically and psychologically going back to work.
and psychologically going back to work. I've met women who do it, but it's
I've met women who do it, but it's really hard. Now, particularly when in
really hard. Now, particularly when in those first early weeks, actually, she's
those first early weeks, actually, she's going to need you or she's going to need
going to need you or she's going to need someone to help her. My husband is
someone to help her. My husband is self-employed. Um, my husband actually
self-employed. Um, my husband actually only managed to have two days of
only managed to have two days of paternity leave before he had to go back
paternity leave before he had to go back to work. So, my wonderful mom stepped
to work. So, my wonderful mom stepped in. But, she's going to need somebody
in. But, she's going to need somebody there. In an ideal world, as long as you
there. In an ideal world, as long as you were happy to do that, that would be you
were happy to do that, that would be you because your baby would really benefit
because your baby would really benefit from that. And then from there, you have
from that. And then from there, you have to take it the way it works for you in
to take it the way it works for you in terms of your career because whoever
terms of your career because whoever looks after that baby, it doesn't have
looks after that baby, it doesn't have to be mom or or dad. It can be a mixture
to be mom or or dad. It can be a mixture of both. But but I'm able to make
of both. But but I'm able to make concessions. Maybe I'm I'm in a
concessions. Maybe I'm I'm in a privileged position where I can make I
privileged position where I can make I can kind of design my life a little
can kind of design my life a little Well, from a from an ideal point of view
Well, from a from an ideal point of view then you will at that point try and be
then you will at that point try and be with your baby as much as you can and do
with your baby as much as you can and do that and do as many of the tasks with
that and do as many of the tasks with your baby you can because actually from
your baby you can because actually from your point of view as a man men the
your point of view as a man men the psychological changes that a man goes
psychological changes that a man goes through when he becomes a father it's
through when he becomes a father it's known as the transition to parenthood in
known as the transition to parenthood in most men who work it takes two years and
most men who work it takes two years and one of the reasons it takes two years
one of the reasons it takes two years whereas in a mother it takes about nine
whereas in a mother it takes about nine months is because one of the factors in
months is because one of the factors in how quickly you transition to adopting
how quickly you transition to adopting that identity And how comfortable you
that identity And how comfortable you feel with that identity is down to
feel with that identity is down to competency. How competent do you feel as
competency. How competent do you feel as a parent? Now many western dads, they
a parent? Now many western dads, they don't get the opportunity to reach
don't get the opportunity to reach competency very quickly because they
competency very quickly because they have to go to work. So they don't get to
have to go to work. So they don't get to care for their baby. And that's one of
care for their baby. And that's one of the things we know that men who get that
the things we know that men who get that chance transition to parenthood much
chance transition to parenthood much quicker because they reach competency
quicker because they reach competency quicker. They absorb the identity of
quicker. They absorb the identity of being a dad quicker and that is better
being a dad quicker and that is better for them. This transition to parenthood,
for them. This transition to parenthood, is that a biological thing? It's it's
is that a biological thing? It's it's underpinned by the biology by the by the
underpinned by the biology by the by the um brain changes and hormone changes
um brain changes and hormone changes you're going to undergo. But it's a
you're going to undergo. But it's a psychological state. So it's about
psychological state. So it's about configuring your identity and absorbing
configuring your identity and absorbing that particular new aspect of your
that particular new aspect of your identity into who into your sense of
identity into who into your sense of being and also feeling comfortable with
being and also feeling comfortable with that. We know men who struggle with that
that. We know men who struggle with that transition are much more likely to
transition are much more likely to suffer from postnatal depression for
suffer from postnatal depression for example. And postnatal depression has a
example. And postnatal depression has a fundamental impact not only on your
fundamental impact not only on your partner but also on your child. So, we
partner but also on your child. So, we want to be protective against that. So,
want to be protective against that. So, she needs some time. Um, she's going to
she needs some time. Um, she's going to need me for supportive reasons in those
need me for supportive reasons in those early weeks. And then the more time I
early weeks. And then the more time I can spend with my child, the more I'm
can spend with my child, the more I'm going to psychologically adjust to and
going to psychologically adjust to and the more and the quicker you're going to
the more and the quicker you're going to build your bond because as I said
build your bond because as I said earlier, you build your bond through
earlier, you build your bond through interaction
interaction and your your partner's going to have a
and your your partner's going to have a head start. She just is because of
head start. She just is because of pregnancy and ch and if she's
pregnancy and ch and if she's breastfeeding as well, breastfeeding is
breastfeeding as well, breastfeeding is really good for releasing oxytocin. You
really good for releasing oxytocin. You have to do it through interaction. And
have to do it through interaction. And in those early weeks with a baby,
in those early weeks with a baby, they're very dependent. And particularly
they're very dependent. And particularly if your partner is breastfeeding,
if your partner is breastfeeding, they're very mom focused because she is
they're very mom focused because she is the source of food. And newborn babies
the source of food. And newborn babies feed for ages. So a lot of men say to
feed for ages. So a lot of men say to me, I want to build a relationship, but
me, I want to build a relationship, but I literally cannot find an end. So what
I literally cannot find an end. So what we say is make something special. So
we say is make something special. So make something that's yours. It could be
make something that's yours. It could be bath time. It could be reading your baby
bath time. It could be reading your baby a book. It's never too early to begin
a book. It's never too early to begin reading your baby a book. Or a really
reading your baby a book. Or a really good one is baby massage. Baby massage
good one is baby massage. Baby massage is great because touch is is the biggest
is great because touch is is the biggest releaser of bonding hormones there are.
releaser of bonding hormones there are. If you massage your baby, your baby's
If you massage your baby, your baby's getting all those lovely hormones and so
getting all those lovely hormones and so are you. So, you're building that bond
are you. So, you're building that bond between you. You're close enough that so
between you. You're close enough that so your baby's getting sensory input,
your baby's getting sensory input, particularly sense of smell. So, baby's
particularly sense of smell. So, baby's vision is not great when they're born,
vision is not great when they're born, but their sense of smell is brilliant
but their sense of smell is brilliant because they're little mammals. So,
because they're little mammals. So, they're starting to really get your
they're starting to really get your smell and that's going to help them
smell and that's going to help them attach to you. We also know baby massage
attach to you. We also know baby massage is one of the only really good
is one of the only really good interventions that prevents postnatal
interventions that prevents postnatal depression in men. So, I love that. I
depression in men. So, I love that. I just had this little flash in my head of
just had this little flash in my head of all the babies that just got a massage
all the babies that just got a massage because you said that. Yeah. And they're
because you said that. Yeah. And they're all blissed out. I mean, there's some
all blissed out. I mean, there's some brilliant videos on YouTube. Oh, if you
brilliant videos on YouTube. Oh, if you want to learn, you don't have to go to a
want to learn, you don't have to go to a class. Watch. There's wonderful videos
class. Watch. There's wonderful videos of baby massage and whole classes of men
of baby massage and whole classes of men massaging babies. I mean, it's
massaging babies. I mean, it's brilliant. So, you also want to be there
brilliant. So, you also want to be there because you need to build that bond. And
because you need to build that bond. And the only way you're going to do that is
the only way you're going to do that is interaction. And so, and as your baby
interaction. And so, and as your baby develops, that interaction becomes
develops, that interaction becomes easier because the baby will start
easier because the baby will start babbling. They'll start smiling. in
babbling. They'll start smiling. in about six to eight weeks they'll start
about six to eight weeks they'll start smiling and they'll start smiling at
smiling and they'll start smiling at you. Um and that's just you know that's
you. Um and that's just you know that's you can forgive them anything when they
you can forgive them anything when they do that. Um and then they'll start you
do that. Um and then they'll start you know really reacting when you come in
know really reacting when you come in being pleased to see you then they'll
being pleased to see you then they'll start giggling and then at about 6
start giggling and then at about 6 months if you are a rough and tumble dad
months if you are a rough and tumble dad you can start doing very gentle rough
you can start doing very gentle rough and tumble play with them and and you
and tumble play with them and and you can just take it from there. The
can just take it from there. The interaction grows more and more and
interaction grows more and more and more. One of the things we have to
more. One of the things we have to prepare men for which I do a lot when I
prepare men for which I do a lot when I work with men uh during pregnancy is the
work with men uh during pregnancy is the delay in bonding. So, we have this idea
delay in bonding. So, we have this idea that baby's going to come out and we're
that baby's going to come out and we're going to feel a flood of love and it's
going to feel a flood of love and it's going to be it's going to be like, you
going to be it's going to be like, you know, shining, amazing, wonderful. That
know, shining, amazing, wonderful. That doesn't happen for women a lot of the
doesn't happen for women a lot of the time, but men find it very difficult
time, but men find it very difficult because because they grow their bond
because because they grow their bond through interaction. When the baby comes
through interaction. When the baby comes out, they they tend to have a
out, they they tend to have a recognition of connection. It's like,
recognition of connection. It's like, yes, that's my baby. That's my genetic
yes, that's my baby. That's my genetic baby. It's genetically related to me. I
baby. It's genetically related to me. I am a father. I will look after it. But
am a father. I will look after it. But it's very conscious. When I talk to my
it's very conscious. When I talk to my dads quite often when I visit them at
dads quite often when I visit them at two weeks, a lot of them are worrying
two weeks, a lot of them are worrying about the bond because they're not
about the bond because they're not feeling how they thought they would
feeling how they thought they would feel. They're looking at their partner
feel. They're looking at their partner who's had a head start and thinking,
who's had a head start and thinking, "Well, she's the gold standard of
"Well, she's the gold standard of bonding. She's amazing at it. I'm
bonding. She's amazing at it. I'm failing. My baby doesn't like me. I'm
failing. My baby doesn't like me. I'm rubbish at this." And that's not good
rubbish at this." And that's not good for their mental health. And what they
for their mental health. And what they tend to do is withdraw from the baby,
tend to do is withdraw from the baby, which is the worst thing you can do. But
which is the worst thing you can do. But then when I speak to them when at six
then when I speak to them when at six months with the baby, they all say, "I
months with the baby, they all say, "I love my baby deeply." and it's
love my baby deeply." and it's categorically different to how I felt at
categorically different to how I felt at the start and that's because they've had
the start and that's because they've had to interact for that time to build that
to interact for that time to build that bond. Is it fair to say that the woman's
bond. Is it fair to say that the woman's bond comes more hormonally and the
bond comes more hormonally and the father's reaction comes more from
father's reaction comes more from interaction? Yeah, because you will get
interaction? Yeah, because you will get your hormones from your interaction.
your hormones from your interaction. Whereas she has got her hormones mostly
Whereas she has got her hormones mostly uh at the start from being pregnant and
uh at the start from being pregnant and giving birth and breastfeeding. And
giving birth and breastfeeding. And breastfeeding. So she's getting lots of
breastfeeding. So she's getting lots of physiologically based hormones and she
physiologically based hormones and she will also get hormones from interaction.
will also get hormones from interaction. Obviously she will, but she's ahead of
Obviously she will, but she's ahead of you. You're going to have to massage
you. You're going to have to massage that baby to go get You are really going
that baby to go get You are really going to have to massage that baby or play
to have to massage that baby or play with them. I guess that's the other
with them. I guess that's the other thing you said. Yeah. You mentioned
thing you said. Yeah. You mentioned something before we started recording
something before we started recording which was curious to me and I've never
which was curious to me and I've never heard of before, which is you mentioned
heard of before, which is you mentioned um love drugs. Yes. I've never heard of
um love drugs. Yes. I've never heard of that before. Okay. I mean, what's that
that before. Okay. I mean, what's that like MDMA or something? Yes. So, we kind
like MDMA or something? Yes. So, we kind of probably know just about enough about
of probably know just about enough about the neuroscience of love now,
the neuroscience of love now, particularly the neurochemicals which
particularly the neurochemicals which underpin it, that should we wish to, we
underpin it, that should we wish to, we could finally produce the elixir of
could finally produce the elixir of love. So, since we've written things
love. So, since we've written things down, we have been fascinated with
down, we have been fascinated with finding the elixir of love. There's
finding the elixir of love. There's loads of ancient texts about potions
loads of ancient texts about potions that will make you fall in love. It's
that will make you fall in love. It's something that as humans, we've always
something that as humans, we've always wanted and it's partly because love is
wanted and it's partly because love is unpredictable and uncontrollable and
unpredictable and uncontrollable and humans really can't deal with that. We
humans really can't deal with that. We we like to know what is going to happen
we like to know what is going to happen and we like to be able to control it as
and we like to be able to control it as far as we can. So, wouldn't it be great
far as we can. So, wouldn't it be great if you could pop a pill or drink
if you could pop a pill or drink something which meant that when you went
something which meant that when you went out on a Friday night, you were really
out on a Friday night, you were really good at either being like the the bell
good at either being like the the bell of the ball and attracting people or you
of the ball and attracting people or you could somehow get to be more attractive
could somehow get to be more attractive to people or if you were in or you could
to people or if you were in or you could make someone fall in love with you or if
make someone fall in love with you or if you're in a long-term relationship with
you're in a long-term relationship with a struggling there was some pill that
a struggling there was some pill that would help that long-term relationship.
would help that long-term relationship. And we are kind of at that stage now
And we are kind of at that stage now with the neuroscience where that would
with the neuroscience where that would potentially be possible. And there are
potentially be possible. And there are certainly research groups who are
certainly research groups who are looking into what chemicals are already
looking into what chemicals are already out there which kind of mimic that
out there which kind of mimic that neurochemistry. Now there are two big
neurochemistry. Now there are two big ones that we already have. The first is
ones that we already have. The first is oxytocin. Of course oxytocin is
oxytocin. Of course oxytocin is synthesized. We use it in child birth.
synthesized. We use it in child birth. It induces child birth. Um, and in
It induces child birth. Um, and in studies where we wanted to work out the
studies where we wanted to work out the impact of oxytocin on social behavior in
impact of oxytocin on social behavior in humans in labs, we squirt it up people's
humans in labs, we squirt it up people's noses. You can squirt it up people's
noses. You can squirt it up people's noses and see what oxytocin and what it
noses and see what oxytocin and what it does if you want to know in most people
does if you want to know in most people is it makes them more empathetic. It
is it makes them more empathetic. It makes them more open to chatting to
makes them more open to chatting to people. It makes them more sociable. It
people. It makes them more sociable. It makes them more positive about the
makes them more positive about the people around them from a social
people around them from a social context. So brilliant. So one of the
context. So brilliant. So one of the possibilities is you produce synthetic
possibilities is you produce synthetic oxytocin and you sell it to people. And
oxytocin and you sell it to people. And in fact, a few years ago, and I think
in fact, a few years ago, and I think they've taken it down now, there was a
they've taken it down now, there was a drug on Amazon and eBay called Oxy Love.
drug on Amazon and eBay called Oxy Love. It's a little thing like a like an eye
It's a little thing like a like an eye drop thing. What it would do if you
drop thing. What it would do if you squirted up your nose is hopefully it
squirted up your nose is hopefully it would do what oxytocin does in the
would do what oxytocin does in the normal biological context. It would
normal biological context. It would quiet your amydala. It would make you
quiet your amydala. It would make you more confident. Uh it would make you
more confident. Uh it would make you feel more open to starting
feel more open to starting relationships. You'd be better at
relationships. You'd be better at chatting to people. So, it's it's kind
chatting to people. So, it's it's kind of like, you know, the you know, a
of like, you know, the you know, a couple of glasses of wine before you go
couple of glasses of wine before you go out. makes you feel a little bit more
out. makes you feel a little bit more confident. It would be a little bit like
confident. It would be a little bit like that. And that's one of the things
that. And that's one of the things they're looking into. The issue with it
they're looking into. The issue with it is that you cannot guarantee the outcome
is that you cannot guarantee the outcome of using it. So what has been found is
of using it. So what has been found is in the vast majority of people it does
in the vast majority of people it does what it should. But there is a
what it should. But there is a significant minority of people where it
significant minority of people where it does exactly the opposite and it
does exactly the opposite and it actually increases e basically what we
actually increases e basically what we call ethnosentrism, racism, bigotry.
call ethnosentrism, racism, bigotry. Because what happens is they become more
Because what happens is they become more tightly bonded to people they think are
tightly bonded to people they think are in their ingroup. But if they perceive
in their ingroup. But if they perceive you to be in their out group, they
you to be in their out group, they become more racist. So it makes you
become more racist. So it makes you identify more with what you perceive to
identify more with what you perceive to be your ingroup. Now until you can iron
be your ingroup. Now until you can iron that out, that is not a drug you can
that out, that is not a drug you can release onto the market because that is
release onto the market because that is not something you want to happen.
not something you want to happen. investigations seem to have shown that
investigations seem to have shown that it's something to do with genetics that
it's something to do with genetics that some people's oxytocin receptor gene is
some people's oxytocin receptor gene is slightly different and it's those people
slightly different and it's those people who will get the um ethnosentrism result
who will get the um ethnosentrism result rather than the socially confident
rather than the socially confident result. So that's a problem and you
result. So that's a problem and you can't go any further with oxytocin until
can't go any further with oxytocin until you are now that particular problem. The
you are now that particular problem. The second one which is more encouraging
second one which is more encouraging from a from a scientific point of view
from a from a scientific point of view is MDMA, ecstasy. And for many years,
is MDMA, ecstasy. And for many years, people have, you know, anecdotally
people have, you know, anecdotally reported who use ecstasy recreationally
reported who use ecstasy recreationally that it makes you feel overwhelming
that it makes you feel overwhelming sensations of love. It makes you feel
sensations of love. It makes you feel very bonded to everybody you're with. We
very bonded to everybody you're with. We know from from lab studies that people
know from from lab studies that people who take ecstasy on a regular basis
who take ecstasy on a regular basis actually become more empathetic over
actually become more empathetic over time. It actually seems to permanently
time. It actually seems to permanently alter something. So, it seems to be
alter something. So, it seems to be possibly something a bit like beach
possibly something a bit like beach endorphin, which it underpins long-term
endorphin, which it underpins long-term love. Great. So they're engineering MDMA
love. Great. So they're engineering MDMA at the moment to try and find out what
at the moment to try and find out what the dosage should be and how we could
the dosage should be and how we could give it to people. And it's being used
give it to people. And it's being used in marriage therapy in the US at the
in marriage therapy in the US at the moment as a trial to see if it can
moment as a trial to see if it can assist in marriage therapy because a lot
assist in marriage therapy because a lot of people who go to marriage therapy are
of people who go to marriage therapy are very entrenched in their position.
very entrenched in their position. They've lost empathy. They've lost the
They've lost empathy. They've lost the ability to see the other point of view.
ability to see the other point of view. And so if you micro dose ecstasy, which
And so if you micro dose ecstasy, which I don't suggest anybody does without
I don't suggest anybody does without clinical support, you go into the
clinical support, you go into the session, it opens up your empathy and
session, it opens up your empathy and you make progress because of it. And
you make progress because of it. And there's been reasonably good results
there's been reasonably good results from marriage therapy in a clinical
from marriage therapy in a clinical setting. The issue with MDMA isn't that
setting. The issue with MDMA isn't that it has different outcomes for people to
it has different outcomes for people to be honest. Some people it works on some
be honest. Some people it works on some people it just doesn't. So you could
people it just doesn't. So you could take it for that reason and it just
take it for that reason and it just wouldn't do what it's supposed to do.
wouldn't do what it's supposed to do. Fine. The issue with MDMA is more around
Fine. The issue with MDMA is more around ethics
ethics because MDMA is a powerful drug and we
because MDMA is a powerful drug and we don't know yet what its long-term
don't know yet what its long-term consequences would be. For example, if
consequences would be. For example, if you did take it for many, many years.
you did take it for many, many years. The second thing we don't really know is
The second thing we don't really know is what happens if you stop. So let's say
what happens if you stop. So let's say you started a relationship taking MDMA.
you started a relationship taking MDMA. Um first ethical question, should you
Um first ethical question, should you tell the person you're in the
tell the person you're in the relationship with? Secondly, what
relationship with? Secondly, what happens if you stop? You get to the
happens if you stop? You get to the point where for whatever reason you
point where for whatever reason you decide to stop. Is that love going to go
decide to stop. Is that love going to go away? And again, if you haven't told the
away? And again, if you haven't told the person, you're kind of, if it does go
person, you're kind of, if it does go away, mcking around with their life
away, mcking around with their life without them actually realizing that
without them actually realizing that that relationship was based upon an
that relationship was based upon an artificial stimulant. essentially we
artificial stimulant. essentially we have anecdotal um we don't actually know
have anecdotal um we don't actually know whether it would stop because we haven't
whether it would stop because we haven't done long-term enough studies
done long-term enough studies anecdotally from the recreational
anecdotally from the recreational community there have been stories about
community there have been stories about people who have started relationships
people who have started relationships whilst clubbing uh taking ecstasy
whilst clubbing uh taking ecstasy particularly one guy who um used to go
particularly one guy who um used to go back to his hometown every weekend take
back to his hometown every weekend take ecstasy go clubbing met a girl but used
ecstasy go clubbing met a girl but used to go away to work during the week so
to go away to work during the week so every time he saw his girlfriend in the
every time he saw his girlfriend in the first few months it was at the weekend
first few months it was at the weekend they were both he he was on she wasn't
they were both he he was on she wasn't and he fell fell in love with her and
and he fell fell in love with her and this was wonderful and they carried on
this was wonderful and they carried on and eventually they decided that
and eventually they decided that actually no we need to stop this long
actually no we need to stop this long distance thing she needs to move and and
distance thing she needs to move and and come with me we think this has got a
come with me we think this has got a future she does that trouble is during
future she does that trouble is during the week he's not allowed on ecstasy and
the week he's not allowed on ecstasy and quite quickly he realizes he doesn't
quite quickly he realizes he doesn't love her now he has uplifted you know
love her now he has uplifted you know upheaval of her whole life now he didn't
upheaval of her whole life now he didn't do that on purpose he did not know that
do that on purpose he did not know that that was what the impact would be but if
that was what the impact would be but if that's the impact of a love drug we have
that's the impact of a love drug we have a problem what do you do in
a problem what do you do in relationships with power imbalances is
relationships with power imbalances is what if you're in an abusive
what if you're in an abusive relationship and somebody gives it you
relationship and somebody gives it you without you knowing and keeps you in
without you knowing and keeps you in that relationship because of it. So
that relationship because of it. So there are lots of ethical questions. I
there are lots of ethical questions. I think the issue with love drugs is they
think the issue with love drugs is they will probably come because they will be
will probably come because they will be hugely commercially successful if they
hugely commercially successful if they if they get a commercial license. When I
if they get a commercial license. When I do talks and I get to this bit before
do talks and I get to this bit before I've even mentioned what I I ask people
I've even mentioned what I I ask people to raise their hand and say if a drug
to raise their hand and say if a drug could do this would you take it? 50% of
could do this would you take it? 50% of the audience raise their hand and say
the audience raise their hand and say yes I would. So then you tell them what
yes I would. So then you tell them what all the problems are and you tell them
all the problems are and you tell them what the ethics might be and at the end
what the ethics might be and at the end I say again would you take it at least
I say again would you take it at least sell 20% of the audience would. Now
sell 20% of the audience would. Now because love and dating is such a
because love and dating is such a multi-billion dollar industry
multi-billion dollar industry if we get to the point where this can be
if we get to the point where this can be commercially produced someone is going
commercially produced someone is going to make a lot of money and that's why I
to make a lot of money and that's why I think it's probably on the horizon
think it's probably on the horizon unless the rules are so strict that it's
unless the rules are so strict that it's only in clinical settings and even then
only in clinical settings and even then people get around rules. So that's the
people get around rules. So that's the issue with love drugs. Um the other one
issue with love drugs. Um the other one is the SSRIs which are depress for
is the SSRIs which are depress for depression. People who are on SSRIs
depression. People who are on SSRIs realize that they um they reduce your
realize that they um they reduce your emotional abilities. They reduce your
emotional abilities. They reduce your libido. They reduce sensations of love.
libido. They reduce sensations of love. And so it has been suggested again that
And so it has been suggested again that SSRIs are engineered in some way to help
SSRIs are engineered in some way to help people deal with love trauma. So people
people deal with love trauma. So people who have experienced very bad
who have experienced very bad relationships and not that you can
relationships and not that you can forget it. Do you remember the filter
forget it. Do you remember the filter eternal sunshine? I didn't say that.
eternal sunshine? I didn't say that. Right. Okay. It's about a guy who wants
Right. Okay. It's about a guy who wants to wipe his brain in terms of a really
to wipe his brain in terms of a really bad relationship. And that's kind of
bad relationship. And that's kind of what suggested this could do. SSRIs
what suggested this could do. SSRIs can't do that. You cannot wipe a memory,
can't do that. You cannot wipe a memory, but they could maybe take away some of
but they could maybe take away some of the salience, some of the negative
the salience, some of the negative salants. The issue again with that is
salants. The issue again with that is that there are 72 countries in the world
that there are 72 countries in the world where homosexuality is still illegal.
where homosexuality is still illegal. And we know there are certain uh this
And we know there are certain uh this was a brilliant book called love drugs
was a brilliant book called love drugs talked about a very extreme religious
talked about a very extreme religious community which was giving young men who
community which was giving young men who had had shown homosexual tendencies
had had shown homosexual tendencies SSRIs to reduce their homosexual
SSRIs to reduce their homosexual tendencies and that in itself is I
tendencies and that in itself is I believe ethically unacceptable and
believe ethically unacceptable and therefore again we've got to be aware
therefore again we've got to be aware that if we produce drugs what could they
that if we produce drugs what could they possibly be used for which is actually
possibly be used for which is actually unacceptable and how are we going to
unacceptable and how are we going to deal with that as a as a population. So
deal with that as a as a population. So I think anything which comes into our
I think anything which comes into our intimate relationships like love drugs
intimate relationships like love drugs or AI or whatever, we have to have that
or AI or whatever, we have to have that conversation now because getting it
conversation now because getting it wrong has profound impacts on our
wrong has profound impacts on our futures and on our health.
futures and on our health. Let's talk about attachment styles and
Let's talk about attachment styles and monogamy and the neurodiversity
monogamy and the neurodiversity components of this. So if we start with
components of this. So if we start with attachment styles, there's been so much
attachment styles, there's been so much said about attachment styles. Can you
said about attachment styles. Can you sort of give my viewers a overview of
sort of give my viewers a overview of what attachment styles are and what we
what attachment styles are and what we need to know about attachment styles as
need to know about attachment styles as it relates to falling and holding on to
it relates to falling and holding on to love? Okay. I think the first thing you
love? Okay. I think the first thing you need to understand is what is an
need to understand is what is an attachment relationship? Attachment
attachment relationship? Attachment relationships are very rare in your
relationships are very rare in your life. Um, you will have had them with
life. Um, you will have had them with whoever brought you up, whoever cared
whoever brought you up, whoever cared for you, particularly in the first two
for you, particularly in the first two years of life. That's particularly
years of life. That's particularly significant. You will have them with
significant. You will have them with romantic partners. They're not all
romantic partners. They're not all romantic partners. And you might have
romantic partners. And you might have one with a best friend. They're very
one with a best friend. They're very emotionally intense. We recognize them
emotionally intense. We recognize them for several criteria. First of all,
for several criteria. First of all, they're developmentally significant. So,
they're developmentally significant. So, attachment relationships have the
attachment relationships have the ability to change your psychology. Now,
ability to change your psychology. Now, as a child, they actually have the
as a child, they actually have the ability to change your your actual brain
ability to change your your actual brain architecture as well, particularly in
architecture as well, particularly in those first two years because babies are
those first two years because babies are born without their brains fully
born without their brains fully developed. That's why they're so
developed. That's why they're so helpless. And in the first two years,
helpless. And in the first two years, your brain is growing very rapidly. and
your brain is growing very rapidly. and the environment to which you are raised
the environment to which you are raised is going to fundamentally underpin the
is going to fundamentally underpin the architecture of your brain. So that's
architecture of your brain. So that's developmentally very significant. That
developmentally very significant. That first attachment relationship you have
first attachment relationship you have with your parents, parents, carers,
with your parents, parents, carers, whoever it has, whoever's bringing you
whoever it has, whoever's bringing you up. Babies will attach to literally
up. Babies will attach to literally anybody who's meeting their needs to be
anybody who's meeting their needs to be honest. Um and that will fundamentally
honest. Um and that will fundamentally alter your brain and either in a good
alter your brain and either in a good way or unfortunately in a less good way
way or unfortunately in a less good way depending on how you're brought up. When
depending on how you're brought up. When you have a romantic relationship, what
you have a romantic relationship, what they can do is they can alter your
they can do is they can alter your psychology, particularly how anxious you
psychology, particularly how anxious you are about being abandoned in that
are about being abandoned in that relationship and how comfortable you are
relationship and how comfortable you are with emotional and physical intimacy.
with emotional and physical intimacy. Because I will tell you a story when I
Because I will tell you a story when I met my husband, I was very worried about
met my husband, I was very worried about him leaving me, him abandoning me. And I
him leaving me, him abandoning me. And I dealt with that by being monumentally
dealt with that by being monumentally clingy. And over time, we've been
clingy. And over time, we've been married for nearly 25 years. I became
married for nearly 25 years. I became secure because he disproved my fear that
secure because he disproved my fear that he was going to leave and I am now
he was going to leave and I am now secure. So he fundamentally changed my
secure. So he fundamentally changed my psychology. So they can do that and in
psychology. So they can do that and in romantic relationships there are four
romantic relationships there are four types of attachment relationship and we
types of attachment relationship and we place you in one of those sectors based
place you in one of those sectors based upon two different factors. The first is
upon two different factors. The first is how anxious you are about abandonment.
how anxious you are about abandonment. Okay, that's the first one. We ask you
Okay, that's the first one. We ask you lots of questions to work out how
lots of questions to work out how anxious you are about that. The second
anxious you are about that. The second one is how much you want to maintain
one is how much you want to maintain proximity. So again, we'll ask you
proximity. So again, we'll ask you questions about how close you like to be
questions about how close you like to be to the person, whether you maintain
to the person, whether you maintain closeness because you're anxious, or
closeness because you're anxious, or whether you maintain closeness because
whether you maintain closeness because you love intimacy, or whether you run
you love intimacy, or whether you run away from intimacy at a rate of not. And
away from intimacy at a rate of not. And depending on how you answer, we put you
depending on how you answer, we put you in one of four categories. So if you are
in one of four categories. So if you are not anxious in relationships about
not anxious in relationships about abandonment, but you are very
abandonment, but you are very comfortable with proximity, emotional,
comfortable with proximity, emotional, physical intimacy, then you're secure.
physical intimacy, then you're secure. And it's what it sounds like. you are
And it's what it sounds like. you are very comfortable in your individuality.
very comfortable in your individuality. You gain huge benefits from being in
You gain huge benefits from being in that relationship but you don't need
that relationship but you don't need that relationship to exist to define
that relationship to exist to define you. The next one is people who are
you. The next one is people who are highly anxious about abandonment and
highly anxious about abandonment and crave proximity and that was me
crave proximity and that was me preoccupied. So they are very anxious
preoccupied. So they are very anxious about being left and the way they deal
about being left and the way they deal with it like I did was to cling to to
with it like I did was to cling to to maintain because if I keep an eye on you
maintain because if I keep an eye on you it's going to be okay. Then we have the
it's going to be okay. Then we have the two um avoidant attachment styles. So
two um avoidant attachment styles. So first of all, we have people who are
first of all, we have people who are very anxious about being abandoned but
very anxious about being abandoned but don't maintain proximity. They find
don't maintain proximity. They find intimacy very uncomfortable. And the
intimacy very uncomfortable. And the reason for that, they're known as
reason for that, they're known as fearful avoidant people. And the reason
fearful avoidant people. And the reason they do that is the way they cope with
they do that is the way they cope with the stress of possibly being left is
the stress of possibly being left is they just don't have relationships
they just don't have relationships because then I can't be hurt if you do
because then I can't be hurt if you do that. And finally, we have dismissing
that. And finally, we have dismissing avoidant. dismissing avoidant people are
avoidant. dismissing avoidant people are the smallest part of the population
the smallest part of the population generally and they um aren't worried
generally and they um aren't worried about abandonment but they also don't
about abandonment but they also don't like proximity to be honest they're
like proximity to be honest they're islands they're not that bothered about
islands they're not that bothered about being in a relationship and one of the
being in a relationship and one of the drivers for that might be that they're
drivers for that might be that they're not very comfortable with intimacy but
not very comfortable with intimacy but some people literally just not bothered
some people literally just not bothered can you be shades so could you could you
can you be shades so could you could you is you know the avoidant category does
is you know the avoidant category does that exist on a spectrum and the yes it
that exist on a spectrum and the yes it does the reason I mean all attachments
does the reason I mean all attachments are a spectrum the reason Why we
are a spectrum the reason Why we categorize them is typical scientists we
categorize them is typical scientists we like a category because when we've got a
like a category because when we've got a category we can do data analysis and we
category we can do data analysis and we can decide the sorts of behaviors for
can decide the sorts of behaviors for example that these four quarters perform
example that these four quarters perform or we can put somebody in one and help
or we can put somebody in one and help them change to another for example. Do
them change to another for example. Do you think the way that modern society is
you think the way that modern society is is breeding a certain group of
is breeding a certain group of attachment styles? Do you understand the
attachment styles? Do you understand the question what I'm trying to I do. I
question what I'm trying to I do. I think
think we are getting less comfortable with
we are getting less comfortable with intimacy
intimacy and I think that's partly because we are
and I think that's partly because we are not as practiced at it as we used to be
not as practiced at it as we used to be because we are not as we're not forced
because we are not as we're not forced to be in close contact with a lot of
to be in close contact with a lot of people as much as we used to be. You can
people as much as we used to be. You can pretty much do everything from your
pretty much do everything from your sofa. You can work from your sofa. You
sofa. You can work from your sofa. You can order food from your sofa. You can
can order food from your sofa. You can try and maintain your relationships with
try and maintain your relationships with your friends from your sofa. You don't
your friends from your sofa. You don't actually have to be in a room with
actually have to be in a room with anyone. after COVID there's a lot of
anyone. after COVID there's a lot of data showing that people found it people
data showing that people found it people are much less interested now in meeting
are much less interested now in meeting up they kind of got used to being in
up they kind of got used to being in that little bubble and even though they
that little bubble and even though they had the yearning of I don't have anyone
had the yearning of I don't have anyone with me they become much they became
with me they become much they became much more anxious about going out and
much more anxious about going out and actually seeing anybody and it wasn't
actually seeing anybody and it wasn't just because they were worried about
just because they were worried about COVID we got out of the habit and if you
COVID we got out of the habit and if you get out of the habit you don't get any
get out of the habit you don't get any of the chemicals which encourage you to
of the chemicals which encourage you to go out you certainly don't get any of
go out you certainly don't get any of the addictive chemicals like
the addictive chemicals like betaendorphine so you kind of go a bit
betaendorphine so you kind of go a bit cold turkey Turkey slowly and you just
cold turkey Turkey slowly and you just don't have that draw to go and see
don't have that draw to go and see people anymore from a biological point
people anymore from a biological point of view and from a psychological point
of view and from a psychological point of view it becomes a little bit scary.
of view it becomes a little bit scary. So you just stay where you are. So I
So you just stay where you are. So I think we are seeing more avoidant
think we are seeing more avoidant behaviors in people than we used to. You
behaviors in people than we used to. You talked about the role of dopamine in
talked about the role of dopamine in getting us to like you know get up and
getting us to like you know get up and put our shoes on and get out the house.
put our shoes on and get out the house. And obviously there's lots of things now
And obviously there's lots of things now at home that are giving us dopamine
at home that are giving us dopamine whether it's social media or it's
whether it's social media or it's pornography or if it's uh I guess you
pornography or if it's uh I guess you know there's other substances that give
know there's other substances that give us dopamine and I wondered if that's if
us dopamine and I wondered if that's if you thought that maybe that's playing a
you thought that maybe that's playing a role in I think that is playing a role
role in I think that is playing a role because we get that hit and dopamine is
because we get that hit and dopamine is nice. It gives you a reward. The problem
nice. It gives you a reward. The problem it has is on its own it has no bearing
it has is on its own it has no bearing on social relationships or social
on social relationships or social behavior. You need to have the full
behavior. You need to have the full cocktail. So that's what I say to people
cocktail. So that's what I say to people about social media when they say you
about social media when they say you know but I'm getting a dopamine hit.
know but I'm getting a dopamine hit. It's like, yeah, you are, and that's
It's like, yeah, you are, and that's great, but dopamine is very
great, but dopamine is very shortlasting. On its own, it doesn't
shortlasting. On its own, it doesn't underpin your immune system or your
underpin your immune system or your health in any way. You need the full
health in any way. You need the full lot. You need the full four social
lot. You need the full four social chemicals to get any advantage out of
chemicals to get any advantage out of it. So, that is the problem. And I think
it. So, that is the problem. And I think people because we've heard a lot about
people because we've heard a lot about dopamine think that that dopamine alone
dopamine think that that dopamine alone is going to make you happy and it's not.
is going to make you happy and it's not. You know, earlier we talked about these
You know, earlier we talked about these people that go on 100 dates and maybe
people that go on 100 dates and maybe they don't have the true intention to
they don't have the true intention to actually form a relationship.
actually form a relationship. Speaking sort of broadly, what what
Speaking sort of broadly, what what attachment style do you think those kind
attachment style do you think those kind of people fit into? Those people are are
of people fit into? Those people are are avoidance. So they're either dismissing
avoidance. So they're either dismissing avoidant, which means um they don't have
avoidant, which means um they don't have any of the anxiety associated with
any of the anxiety associated with relationships, or they're fearful
relationships, or they're fearful avoidance. So they they they avoid them
avoidance. So they they they avoid them because they're scared of being hurt. So
because they're scared of being hurt. So when people talk about daddy issues or I
when people talk about daddy issues or I guess you could say mommy issues where
guess you could say mommy issues where the father has
the father has abandoned
abandoned that child at an early age.
that child at an early age. Do do you think generally those people
Do do you think generally those people have a higher probability of being
have a higher probability of being fearful avoidant? They certainly have a
fearful avoidant? They certainly have a higher probability of having an insecure
higher probability of having an insecure attachment style because as I mentioned
attachment style because as I mentioned in the first two years of life when your
in the first two years of life when your brain is growing the environment in
brain is growing the environment in which you're being cared for is going to
which you're being cared for is going to shape that brain. Particularly if for
shape that brain. Particularly if for example a parent leaves during that time
example a parent leaves during that time or even later on when it's still quite a
or even later on when it's still quite a sensitive brain that's going to impact
sensitive brain that's going to impact how your brain grows particularly in
how your brain grows particularly in that prefrontal cortex. So the bit right
that prefrontal cortex. So the bit right at the front here okay where all your
at the front here okay where all your social cognition is and it's going to
social cognition is and it's going to have less gray and white matter in that
have less gray and white matter in that area. Uh it's going to have less density
area. Uh it's going to have less density of neurons and less of a high level of
of neurons and less of a high level of neurochemistry which underpins social
neurochemistry which underpins social behavior. And because of that, when
behavior. And because of that, when you're an adult, you're just not as
you're an adult, you're just not as equipped to be good at relationships
equipped to be good at relationships because your brain, you don't actually
because your brain, you don't actually have the brain architecture to underpin
have the brain architecture to underpin it. So that's one of the reasons why we
it. So that's one of the reasons why we see people who grow up in that
see people who grow up in that environment being more insecure because
environment being more insecure because they don't have the brain architecture
they don't have the brain architecture or indeed the neurochemical the baseline
or indeed the neurochemical the baseline neurochemical levels circulating in
neurochemical levels circulating in their body which is going to motivate
their body which is going to motivate and reward them for starting
and reward them for starting relationships. So they just don't have
relationships. So they just don't have the equipment that people who maybe grew
the equipment that people who maybe grew up in a secure environment do. So that's
up in a secure environment do. So that's one of the problems. And so when people
one of the problems. And so when people say daddy issues, partly what they're
say daddy issues, partly what they're talking about is attachment style. It's
talking about is attachment style. It's the fact that I have this attachment
the fact that I have this attachment style and I've identified I have this
style and I've identified I have this attachment style because my father left
attachment style because my father left whenever I when I was however old. Now
whenever I when I was however old. Now whether that's the entire reason, there
whether that's the entire reason, there are other reasons why people um behave
are other reasons why people um behave the way they do and might not want
the way they do and might not want relationships. There are genetic
relationships. There are genetic reasons. So there are lots of reasons
reasons. So there are lots of reasons why attachment styles can change. Oh,
why attachment styles can change. Oh, completely. And the way that they change
completely. And the way that they change is is it accurate to say someone gives
is is it accurate to say someone gives you evidence that counteracts that's one
you evidence that counteracts that's one of the ways and in one sense that's the
of the ways and in one sense that's the easiest way because in a way I didn't
easiest way because in a way I didn't know it was happening. I this happened
know it was happening. I this happened long before I studied attachment styles.
long before I studied attachment styles. I think I was still chasing monkeys at
I think I was still chasing monkeys at this point but um
this point but um so that's the easiest way is literally
so that's the easiest way is literally you end up with someone who's secure and
you end up with someone who's secure and over time they just get into your brain
over time they just get into your brain and they show you you are wrong. Other
and they show you you are wrong. Other ways are being conscious about what your
ways are being conscious about what your attachment style is and being conscious
attachment style is and being conscious about how it doesn't work for you. There
about how it doesn't work for you. There is no wrong attachment style. That's
is no wrong attachment style. That's what I want to say. If it if you feel
what I want to say. If it if you feel comfortable in your attachment style,
comfortable in your attachment style, brilliant. That's great. It's when it
brilliant. That's great. It's when it doesn't work for you that there's a
doesn't work for you that there's a problem. And so there I always think
problem. And so there I always think everyone should kind of keep an eye on
everyone should kind of keep an eye on what their attachment style is. Um I
what their attachment style is. Um I think it's quite an important thing to
think it's quite an important thing to to to realize if you see yourself, for
to to realize if you see yourself, for example, repeating the same things over
example, repeating the same things over and over again in relationships. So it
and over again in relationships. So it gets to a certain point and you le it
gets to a certain point and you le it for example it's all getting a bit
for example it's all getting a bit intense I'm now going to run away or you
intense I'm now going to run away or you always end up pushing people away for
always end up pushing people away for example maybe because you're too
example maybe because you're too preoccupied or whatever and it's good if
preoccupied or whatever and it's good if you see that pattern if you are
you see that pattern if you are conscious enough to rec recognize that
conscious enough to rec recognize that pattern then you can do work on yourself
pattern then you can do work on yourself or you can ask your friends to help you
or you can ask your friends to help you okay if you see me do this you need to
okay if you see me do this you need to flag it you need to tell me you're doing
flag it you need to tell me you're doing it again you need to step beyond that
it again you need to step beyond that and it will need support you'll need
and it will need support you'll need emotional support either just from
emotional support either just from friends and family or you might need
friends and family or you might need professional help there are attachment
professional help there are attachment counselors who will help you or
counselors who will help you or understand where your attachment style
understand where your attachment style came from and they will help you do the
came from and they will help you do the work, okay, to shift. So, you can do it
work, okay, to shift. So, you can do it that way. Uh, and then obviously at the
that way. Uh, and then obviously at the very extreme end of attachment disorders
very extreme end of attachment disorders and they always need input from a
and they always need input from a professional. One of the things that I
professional. One of the things that I found to be particularly useful is
found to be particularly useful is vocalizing my attachment style to my
vocalizing my attachment style to my partner and her doing the same back so
partner and her doing the same back so that we can both kind of hold understand
that we can both kind of hold understand the other person even though it might
the other person even though it might not be us and we don't understand that
not be us and we don't understand that clingy behavior or that avoidant
clingy behavior or that avoidant behavior. vocalizing it in the way that
behavior. vocalizing it in the way that you've said, not not just becoming
you've said, not not just becoming self-aware, but like mutually aware has
self-aware, but like mutually aware has really helped us because I can now
really helped us because I can now understand her behavior. She's she's
understand her behavior. She's she's much more on the
much more on the I don't want to say clingy, but she
I don't want to say clingy, but she needs that sort of reassurance and of my
needs that sort of reassurance and of my presence and Yes. And now behavior that
presence and Yes. And now behavior that I might have thought in the past was a
I might have thought in the past was a bit irrational, I now understand more
bit irrational, I now understand more contextually. Yeah. And therefore, I'm
contextually. Yeah. And therefore, I'm able to be more empathetic and more and
able to be more empathetic and more and that's really important. It's really
that's really important. It's really important to do that because you know we
important to do that because you know we all attach in different ways and by
all attach in different ways and by understanding that it helps you as you
understanding that it helps you as you say if someone's really clingy it can
say if someone's really clingy it can feel quite claustrophobic but if you
feel quite claustrophobic but if you understand actually that's especially if
understand actually that's especially if you're avoidant it's like triggering
you're avoidant it's like triggering well it's really triggering and that's
well it's really triggering and that's what we know we know there are certain
what we know we know there are certain attachment styles that work better
attachment styles that work better together than others. So we know
together than others. So we know particularly a dismissing avoidant
particularly a dismissing avoidant person with a preoccupied person. Yeah.
person with a preoccupied person. Yeah. That's really tricky to keep going. that
That's really tricky to keep going. that is that is a long-term relationship
is that is a long-term relationship which is if it can carry on is going to
which is if it can carry on is going to be very hard work and probably quite uh
be very hard work and probably quite uh roller coastery I would say whereas you
roller coastery I would say whereas you know if any of the of the insecure so
know if any of the of the insecure so I'm doing this because it's a grid any
I'm doing this because it's a grid any of the insecure attachment styles if you
of the insecure attachment styles if you can find yourself somewhere insecure
can find yourself somewhere insecure brilliant secure people are amazing
brilliant secure people are amazing because they will absorb all that stuff
because they will absorb all that stuff because they're so secure in themselves
because they're so secure in themselves whether you're clingy whether you're
whether you're clingy whether you're pushing them away they absorb it and
pushing them away they absorb it and they're good at it preoccupied and
they're good at it preoccupied and fearful avoidant that works quite well
fearful avoidant that works quite well in one sense because the preoccupied
in one sense because the preoccupied person wants to stick with the fearful
person wants to stick with the fearful avoidant person and the thing that's
avoidant person and the thing that's really really troubling the fearful
really really troubling the fearful avoidant person is you're going to
avoidant person is you're going to leave. So if you literally sit on top of
leave. So if you literally sit on top of them which is what you're doing if
them which is what you're doing if you're preoccupied then that's great in
you're preoccupied then that's great in one sense because they will think oh
one sense because they will think oh okay they're literally not going
okay they're literally not going anywhere because they're there all the
anywhere because they're there all the time. Um so there are partnerships that
time. Um so there are partnerships that work better and I do I agree with you. I
work better and I do I agree with you. I think it's good to be aware of what each
think it's good to be aware of what each of within a partnership is because then
of within a partnership is because then you can understand some of the quirks
you can understand some of the quirks and behavior. you can understand some of
and behavior. you can understand some of your reactions to that behavior.
your reactions to that behavior. Neurodeiversity.
Neurodeiversity. In the last couple of weeks, I was
In the last couple of weeks, I was thinking, it might be my attachment
thinking, it might be my attachment style, but it also might be the fact
style, but it also might be the fact that I was diagnosed with ADHD, which
that I was diagnosed with ADHD, which I'm not sure if I have, but I was
I'm not sure if I have, but I was diagnosed with it. Um, I was thinking
diagnosed with it. Um, I was thinking about how a neurodeiverse person might
about how a neurodeiverse person might struggle in love and holding on to
struggle in love and holding on to relationships because of their
relationships because of their neurodiversity. Before we started
neurodiversity. Before we started talking, you said that roughly, I think
talking, you said that roughly, I think 25% of the population are classified as
25% of the population are classified as neurodyiverse.
neurodyiverse. If I have ADHD or autism, how am I
If I have ADHD or autism, how am I likely or more likely to struggle in
likely or more likely to struggle in love? Firstly, because the big the
love? Firstly, because the big the biggie is that the neuroscience and
biggie is that the neuroscience and genetics of love are very like the neuro
genetics of love are very like the neuro the neuroscience and genetics of
the neuroscience and genetics of neurodeiversity. So the chemistry that
neurodeiversity. So the chemistry that underpins love is also implicated in
underpins love is also implicated in neurodeiversity.
neurodeiversity. Some of the areas of the brain which are
Some of the areas of the brain which are activated in love are also involved in
activated in love are also involved in neurodeiversity. And that is why
neurodeiversity. And that is why particularly with autism but also with
particularly with autism but also with ADHD the issues that that people who are
ADHD the issues that that people who are autistic or ADHD have express themselves
autistic or ADHD have express themselves a lot in the social sphere because it's
a lot in the social sphere because it's the same neurochemistry and genetics
the same neurochemistry and genetics essentially. So for example the oxytocin
essentially. So for example the oxytocin receptor gene which has 26 point
receptor gene which has 26 point mutations on it which impact your social
mutations on it which impact your social behavior um and and individual
behavior um and and individual differences in social behavior. A lot of
differences in social behavior. A lot of those are implicated also in autism.
those are implicated also in autism. Dopamine uh is implicated obviously in
Dopamine uh is implicated obviously in ADHD. Serotonin is implicated in ADHD.
ADHD. Serotonin is implicated in ADHD. Those are both chemicals which are
Those are both chemicals which are involved in in love, one of the
involved in in love, one of the neurochemicals of love. So there is some
neurochemicals of love. So there is some major crossovers between the two. There
major crossovers between the two. There are several reasons why neurodiversity
are several reasons why neurodiversity is difficult. For example, um the way
is difficult. For example, um the way the neurodeiverse brain works, things
the neurodeiverse brain works, things like executive function is different in
like executive function is different in people with neurodyiverse brains. What
people with neurodyiverse brains. What does that mean? Executive function is
does that mean? Executive function is things like attention, uh emotional
things like attention, uh emotional inhibition, and working memory. It's
inhibition, and working memory. It's kind of the set of skills that allow you
kind of the set of skills that allow you to operate within the world. Um that's
to operate within the world. Um that's implicate that's impacted in ADHD and in
implicate that's impacted in ADHD and in autism. The processing speeds and also
autism. The processing speeds and also the way that you process those
the way that you process those particular three elements is different.
particular three elements is different. For example, people with ADHD, their
For example, people with ADHD, their working memory generally isn't great.
working memory generally isn't great. They find it difficult to recall things
They find it difficult to recall things or hold on to things. Uh emotional
or hold on to things. Uh emotional regulation is difficult. So, for
regulation is difficult. So, for example, people with ADHD might build to
example, people with ADHD might build to anger quicker than people who don't have
anger quicker than people who don't have it. Um, people with autism tend to have
it. Um, people with autism tend to have quite extreme extremes of emotional
quite extreme extremes of emotional experience for example and all of that
experience for example and all of that is very difficult in a relationship
is very difficult in a relationship because if you live with someone who has
because if you live with someone who has extreme emotional reactions or gets very
extreme emotional reactions or gets very angry and conflicts very quickly that's
angry and conflicts very quickly that's tricky to deal with. We also know things
tricky to deal with. We also know things like sensory processing particularly in
like sensory processing particularly in autism is affected. So that has two
autism is affected. So that has two implications. First of all, when we're
implications. First of all, when we're using all that sensory information in
using all that sensory information in the attraction stage, so all that
the attraction stage, so all that sensory information that's going into
sensory information that's going into your limbic area, the sensory processing
your limbic area, the sensory processing speeds in people with autism tend to be
speeds in people with autism tend to be slower, but they also tend to be either
slower, but they also tend to be either hyper sensory, which means they feel all
hyper sensory, which means they feel all the senses very intensely, or they tend
the senses very intensely, or they tend to have different experiences sensors,
to have different experiences sensors, or they tend to have very low sensory
or they tend to have very low sensory experience. And all of that will impact,
experience. And all of that will impact, first of all, how that algorithm
first of all, how that algorithm operates in your brain. It will also
operates in your brain. It will also impact just simply things like the
impact just simply things like the environment in which you might go on a
environment in which you might go on a date. So most people want to go on a
date. So most people want to go on a date to a restaurant or a pub or a
date to a restaurant or a pub or a comedy club or wherever. For autistic
comedy club or wherever. For autistic people that's really hard
people that's really hard to deal with. We also know unfortunately
to deal with. We also know unfortunately the people who are neurodeiverse are
the people who are neurodeiverse are more likely to be in abusive
more likely to be in abusive relationships
relationships and there are reasons for that. If we
and there are reasons for that. If we look at ADHD, ADHD is um a dysfunction
look at ADHD, ADHD is um a dysfunction in the dopamine system in the brain. So
in the dopamine system in the brain. So what happens is you release dopamine but
what happens is you release dopamine but it's re it's taken back up into the
it's re it's taken back up into the brain before it has enough of an effect.
brain before it has enough of an effect. So what people with ADHD tend to do is
So what people with ADHD tend to do is they dopamine seek. They do activities
they dopamine seek. They do activities which give them a hit of dopamine. Um so
which give them a hit of dopamine. Um so you know I have my daughter I hope she
you know I have my daughter I hope she she should she doesn't mind my
she should she doesn't mind my daughter's ADHD autistic. Um her
daughter's ADHD autistic. Um her dopamine seeking is shopping. She
dopamine seeking is shopping. She dopamine sinks by shopping because you
dopamine sinks by shopping because you get a lovely dopamine hit when you do
get a lovely dopamine hit when you do it. But unfortunately start of
it. But unfortunately start of relationships is a dopamine C. You get
relationships is a dopamine C. You get lots of lovely dopamine in start of
lots of lovely dopamine in start of relationship. So what you'll tend to
relationship. So what you'll tend to find with ADHD people is they will go
find with ADHD people is they will go into relationships really quickly
into relationships really quickly without really considering is this
without really considering is this person right for me. So there's there's
person right for me. So there's there's that impulsivity that comes with ADHD as
that impulsivity that comes with ADHD as well because they're getting that hit of
well because they're getting that hit of dopamine at the start. We also know that
dopamine at the start. We also know that for example if you are neurodeiverse you
for example if you are neurodeiverse you tend to mask a lot. You've got used to
tend to mask a lot. You've got used to in life masking to fit in with the
in life masking to fit in with the neurotypical world. What's masking?
neurotypical world. What's masking? Masking is knowing the rules of the
Masking is knowing the rules of the neurotypical world. So for example,
neurotypical world. So for example, autistic girls, the reason why autistic
autistic girls, the reason why autistic girls tend to be diagnosed later is they
girls tend to be diagnosed later is they become very good at learning the social
become very good at learning the social rules. So all those things that they
rules. So all those things that they would naturally want to do in a social
would naturally want to do in a social situation, you know, be mute or not
situation, you know, be mute or not reciprocate properly or, you know, not
reciprocate properly or, you know, not say the right thing, they learn what the
say the right thing, they learn what the rules are. It's why they burn out
rules are. It's why they burn out generally is because they've spent their
generally is because they've spent their whole childhood studying it and going,
whole childhood studying it and going, "Okay, so in that circumstance I do this
"Okay, so in that circumstance I do this and in that circumstance I do this." And
and in that circumstance I do this." And they hide the autism. Now, so not only
they hide the autism. Now, so not only is that incredibly stressful, but if
is that incredibly stressful, but if you've got used to in life denying who
you've got used to in life denying who you are, if you go into a relationship
you are, if you go into a relationship with someone, particularly if they're
with someone, particularly if they're particularly dominant or they're
particularly dominant or they're abusive, you carry on denying who you
abusive, you carry on denying who you are, denying that you have a right, for
are, denying that you have a right, for example, to be with someone who's kind.
example, to be with someone who's kind. Mhm. Deny, you know, deny the fact that
Mhm. Deny, you know, deny the fact that you have needs. And so, we know that
you have needs. And so, we know that people who mask find it much much harder
people who mask find it much much harder to express what they want in a
to express what they want in a relationship. So it is it is really
relationship. So it is it is really incredibly tricky I think and you know
incredibly tricky I think and you know we also have issues with empathy for
we also have issues with empathy for example there's a myth particularly
example there's a myth particularly autistic people don't empathize that's
autistic people don't empathize that's not true it's unfortunately still in the
not true it's unfortunately still in the diagnostic criteria and it shouldn't be
diagnostic criteria and it shouldn't be the issue is is that um they empathize
the issue is is that um they empathize in a different way and um so either they
in a different way and um so either they are actually hypermpaths
are actually hypermpaths which means that they feel the other
which means that they feel the other person's emotions so strongly that they
person's emotions so strongly that they shut down and so they don't actually
shut down and so they don't actually respond to the person because they can't
respond to the person because they can't cope with the extreme emotional overload
cope with the extreme emotional overload they've had. Or the other reason is they
they've had. Or the other reason is they do empathize, but they empathize with a
do empathize, but they empathize with a neurodeiverse brain. And there's been a
neurodeiverse brain. And there's been a recent study looking at this and saying
recent study looking at this and saying actually if you put two new
actually if you put two new neurodyiverse people together and ask
neurodyiverse people together and ask them to empathize with each other,
them to empathize with each other, they're brilliant. Two neurotypical
they're brilliant. Two neurotypical people together, ask them brilliant. Ask
people together, ask them brilliant. Ask a neurodyiverse person and a
a neurodyiverse person and a neurotypical person to empath they it's
neurotypical person to empath they it's hard because the brain operates in a
hard because the brain operates in a different way. So empathy is the basis
different way. So empathy is the basis of of relationships. So if you um are in
of of relationships. So if you um are in a mixed relationship, neurotypical and
a mixed relationship, neurotypical and neurodyiverse, that can be tricky
neurodyiverse, that can be tricky because it can be very hard to empathize
because it can be very hard to empathize with the other person and know what
with the other person and know what their emotional needs are.
their emotional needs are. On this point then if if we accept that
On this point then if if we accept that people with ADHD, I've been diagnosed
people with ADHD, I've been diagnosed with ADHD so everything I say is within
with ADHD so everything I say is within that context. um have higher impulsivity
that context. um have higher impulsivity and they have higher novelty seek
and they have higher novelty seek seeking behavior, novelty seeeking
seeking behavior, novelty seeeking behavior and they have struggles with
behavior and they have struggles with emotional
emotional regulation. Yes. And they have some
regulation. Yes. And they have some executive function which is going to
executive function which is going to impair their ability to think about sort
impair their ability to think about sort of like the stakes and foresight and all
of like the stakes and foresight and all these things.
these things. Does that mean that people with ADHD are
Does that mean that people with ADHD are more likely to cheat on you? There's
more likely to cheat on you? There's actually a study which um looked at this
actually a study which um looked at this in 2015. It suggested that adults with
in 2015. It suggested that adults with ADHD were more likely to report
ADHD were more likely to report infidelity than nonADHD peers.
infidelity than nonADHD peers. However, the effect size was not
However, the effect size was not overwhelming. Yes, I I'm always wary of
overwhelming. Yes, I I'm always wary of studies like that because first of all,
studies like that because first of all, if the effect size is not overwhelming,
if the effect size is not overwhelming, I think we have to be very careful of
I think we have to be very careful of labeling neurodyiverse people as the
labeling neurodyiverse people as the problem in a relationship. Um, and I'm
problem in a relationship. Um, and I'm very aware of that. I do a lot of
very aware of that. I do a lot of training on this particularly for
training on this particularly for therapists. And I think we need to be
therapists. And I think we need to be aware that all relationships are a
aware that all relationships are a interaction between two people and they
interaction between two people and they will each bring their issues. And I
will each bring their issues. And I think the labeling of people with
think the labeling of people with neurodiversity as the problem is is not
neurodiversity as the problem is is not on. We all whether we're neurodyiverse
on. We all whether we're neurodyiverse or not have to learn to adapt to the
or not have to learn to adapt to the other person. And we have to educate
other person. And we have to educate ourselves about how their brain works,
ourselves about how their brain works, attachment, whatever it might be. And
attachment, whatever it might be. And therefore, I need think we need to be
therefore, I need think we need to be careful. I think with ADHD, what we do
careful. I think with ADHD, what we do know is people with ADHD are more likely
know is people with ADHD are more likely to have many more short-term
to have many more short-term relationships because they get bored
relationships because they get bored quite easily. They are also much more
quite easily. They are also much more likely to undertake risky sexual
likely to undertake risky sexual behavior, cheating maybe um because they
behavior, cheating maybe um because they are that because of the impulsivity. So
are that because of the impulsivity. So it might be I would want to see that
it might be I would want to see that study replicated many times before I
study replicated many times before I think we say that's a that's a
think we say that's a that's a fundamental issue. And I would also
fundamental issue. And I would also question you know if it's got a very
question you know if it's got a very small effect size there's many other
small effect size there's many other reasons why people cheat. So, do you
reasons why people cheat. So, do you know I think in part the reason why I
know I think in part the reason why I asked that question is because again one
asked that question is because again one of my very good friends um has struggled
of my very good friends um has struggled in this regard for many many years. He's
in this regard for many many years. He's approaching his 40s now and he's what
approaching his 40s now and he's what what what part of the relationship is
what what part of the relationship is well it's not necessarily what he
well it's not necessarily what he struggled with. It's what he loves. He
struggled with. It's what he loves. He loves as he says to me the chase. Yes.
loves as he says to me the chase. Yes. He says I love the chase. Yes. And when
He says I love the chase. Yes. And when you when you really just love the chase
you when you really just love the chase and you maybe don't love the part after
and you maybe don't love the part after it as much you're not going to have a
it as much you're not going to have a great relationship. and he got to I
great relationship. and he got to I think about 35 36 years old and he was
think about 35 36 years old and he was diagnosed with ADHD and it put the rest
diagnosed with ADHD and it put the rest of his life in context and it was I mean
of his life in context and it was I mean of all the people that I know that have
of all the people that I know that have ADHD most certainly he fits the the sort
ADHD most certainly he fits the the sort of criteria and um he looked back
of criteria and um he looked back through his old report cards and he look
through his old report cards and he look mapped the behavior that he had had in
mapped the behavior that he had had in relationships. It was very impulsive. It
relationships. It was very impulsive. It was very very short term. He loves he
was very very short term. He loves he goes on more dates than anyone I've ever
goes on more dates than anyone I've ever met in my entire life because he loves
met in my entire life because he loves the as he says the chase. And I I
the as he says the chase. And I I thought, you know, maybe there is a link
thought, you know, maybe there is a link there with his neurodiversity.
there with his neurodiversity. Obviously, I would say there probably
Obviously, I would say there probably is. I mean, he's dopamine seeking. Yeah.
is. I mean, he's dopamine seeking. Yeah. Essentially, that's what he's doing
Essentially, that's what he's doing because the early stages, you know, when
because the early stages, you know, when you get lot um when you get further into
you get lot um when you get further into a relationship, dopamine takes more of a
a relationship, dopamine takes more of a back seat. Um and come in. So, betray is
back seat. Um and come in. So, betray is the chemical of long-term love. Dopamine
the chemical of long-term love. Dopamine is much more in the background at that
is much more in the background at that point. So, we get the major part of our
point. So, we get the major part of our dopamine hits in relationships at the
dopamine hits in relationships at the start. And that's probably why he gets
start. And that's probably why he gets to a point where the dopamine starts
to a point where the dopamine starts tailing off. The oxytocin starts to tail
tailing off. The oxytocin starts to tail off and beta endorphine starts kicking
off and beta endorphine starts kicking in and it becomes less exciting. That's
in and it becomes less exciting. That's when we move from passionate love to
when we move from passionate love to companionate love and it's just not as
companionate love and it's just not as exhilarating maybe. So if you have a
exhilarating maybe. So if you have a brain like that that's highly dopamine
brain like that that's highly dopamine seeking. You're going to theoretically
seeking. You're going to theoretically struggle to have long-term
struggle to have long-term relationships. And we know that. We know
relationships. And we know that. We know that. I I recently um did a conference
that. I I recently um did a conference which was on women in ADHD and we had a
which was on women in ADHD and we had a workshop and most of the women in that
workshop and most of the women in that room said I either don't have
room said I either don't have relationships or I struggle or I'm in a
relationships or I struggle or I'm in a long-term relationship but it is a daily
long-term relationship but it is a daily struggle to maintain it because it's so
struggle to maintain it because it's so hard to keep your attention on that
hard to keep your attention on that relationship to not look for the novelty
relationship to not look for the novelty elsewhere and also for the other person
elsewhere and also for the other person particularly if they're neurotypical to
particularly if they're neurotypical to deal with. I mean, one woman said to me,
deal with. I mean, one woman said to me, "I'm always told I'm too much. I'm too
"I'm always told I'm too much. I'm too much to go out with because of the
much to go out with because of the impulsivity and the rushing around and
impulsivity and the rushing around and the lack of attention and the lack of
the lack of attention and the lack of calmness and the need for spontaneity, I
calmness and the need for spontaneity, I guess." Yeah. What can one do about it?
guess." Yeah. What can one do about it? I I don't like pushing drugs on anybody.
I I don't like pushing drugs on anybody. And I think whether you take um
And I think whether you take um medication for ADHD is a very personal
medication for ADHD is a very personal decision. But I think if I the mantra I
decision. But I think if I the mantra I have is if your ADHD is fundamentally
have is if your ADHD is fundamentally upsetting your life and you feel that
upsetting your life and you feel that then it's something you maybe need to
then it's something you maybe need to consider. It's very difficult to do just
consider. It's very difficult to do just off your own back. It's not a therapy
off your own back. It's not a therapy issue. It's not you know an attachment
issue. It's not you know an attachment issue. It's very likely to be a
issue. It's very likely to be a neurochemical issue. And that's the
neurochemical issue. And that's the different thing. I would also say it's
different thing. I would also say it's also about the people who you go out
also about the people who you go out with. I've spoken to lots of couples
with. I've spoken to lots of couples which are mixed in terms of
which are mixed in terms of neurodiversity and neurotypical and it's
neurodiversity and neurotypical and it's about the person who's neurotypical
about the person who's neurotypical really educating themselves about how
really educating themselves about how the neurodyiverse brain works. So they
the neurodyiverse brain works. So they have an understanding also about why is
have an understanding also about why is that person reacting like that? Why are
that person reacting like that? Why are they doing that? And that's also really
they doing that? And that's also really really important. I don't think we want
really important. I don't think we want to put the burden always on
to put the burden always on neurodyiverse people to change because I
neurodyiverse people to change because I don't think that's really an acceptable
don't think that's really an acceptable thing to ask them to do. I don't think
thing to ask them to do. I don't think it's really any different from any
it's really any different from any relationship. The best relationships are
relationship. The best relationships are ones where we take the time to really
ones where we take the time to really understand who our partner is. That's
understand who our partner is. That's the way it works best. So you saying you
the way it works best. So you saying you and your partner talk about your
and your partner talk about your attachment styles. That's really
attachment styles. That's really important. You're fundamentally
important. You're fundamentally making it clear that that's important to
making it clear that that's important to you and that your partner has an
you and that your partner has an understanding and you're explaining your
understanding and you're explaining your behavior. And I think that's important.
behavior. And I think that's important. I wonder how this dubtales into the
I wonder how this dubtales into the subject of sex and novelty and
subject of sex and novelty and spontaneity as it relates to sex. If
spontaneity as it relates to sex. If you're a neurody divergent person or you
you're a neurody divergent person or you just have a higher, you know, impulse
just have a higher, you know, impulse desire, I guess, or impulsivity, need
desire, I guess, or impulsivity, need for novelty,
for novelty, you probably get bored of sex pretty
you probably get bored of sex pretty quick, possibly. Yeah. I mean, it's not
quick, possibly. Yeah. I mean, it's not an area I study particularly, but I
an area I study particularly, but I think yes, you probably do. And and we
think yes, you probably do. And and we know that humans, some humans are
know that humans, some humans are genetically neurode divergent or not,
genetically neurode divergent or not, some humans are genetically predisposed
some humans are genetically predisposed to like novelty more than others. It's
to like novelty more than others. It's part of the of one of the dopamine
part of the of one of the dopamine genes. And so some people yes they are
genes. And so some people yes they are more likely to seek out novelty and want
more likely to seek out novelty and want for example yes a very varied sex life.
for example yes a very varied sex life. Um but you know that's something you can
Um but you know that's something you can have with one individual. You don't
have with one individual. You don't necessarily have to go out and you know
necessarily have to go out and you know if that individual is willing to to go
if that individual is willing to to go down that route with you. It's not
down that route with you. It's not something you necessarily have to seek
something you necessarily have to seek elsewhere. As it relates to all the work
elsewhere. As it relates to all the work that you do and the future work that
that you do and the future work that you're going to go on to do. What is the
you're going to go on to do. What is the most important thing we haven't talked
most important thing we haven't talked about that maybe we should have talked
about that maybe we should have talked about? Um two things. I really really
about? Um two things. I really really want to emphasize the body of work which
want to emphasize the body of work which says that your relationships are the
says that your relationships are the biggest factor in your health, your
biggest factor in your health, your longevity and your well-being. And the
longevity and your well-being. And the reason why I want to emphasize that is
reason why I want to emphasize that is because in a world of digital
because in a world of digital communication we have become much less
communication we have become much less good at nurturing our relationships much
good at nurturing our relationships much less good at impact inputting into our
less good at impact inputting into our relationships maintaining our
relationships maintaining our relationships in the way they should be
relationships in the way they should be maintained which is in person. And that
maintained which is in person. And that has consequences for our health. you
has consequences for our health. you know a wonderful study the first study
know a wonderful study the first study of its kind in 2010 there have been many
of its kind in 2010 there have been many since by Julie Halt Lunstead she but she
since by Julie Halt Lunstead she but she did a massive meta analysis which is
did a massive meta analysis which is lots and lots of studies coming together
lots and lots of studies coming together looking at the impact of your social
looking at the impact of your social network your relationships all those
network your relationships all those sorts of things on outcomes health
sorts of things on outcomes health outcomes things like the likelihood that
outcomes things like the likelihood that you would have poor mental health the
you would have poor mental health the likelihood that you would suffer from
likelihood that you would suffer from certain chronic diseases the likelihood
certain chronic diseases the likelihood that you would recover from certain
that you would recover from certain illnesses or how long it would take you
illnesses or how long it would take you to come back round after having an
to come back round after having an operation in terms of getting better and
operation in terms of getting better and she found and it's been even more
she found and it's been even more impressive since then that that your
impressive since then that that your relationships are the biggest factor in
relationships are the biggest factor in your health, well-being and longevity
your health, well-being and longevity above all else from don't smoke,
above all else from don't smoke, maintain a good weight, do your
maintain a good weight, do your exercise, eat your vegetables, all those
exercise, eat your vegetables, all those sorts of things. Above all of that sit
sorts of things. Above all of that sit your relationships. So when we in this
your relationships. So when we in this very healthconscious world where we have
very healthconscious world where we have lots of health influences and all that
lots of health influences and all that kind of thing,
kind of thing, we're still missing that point and we're
we're still missing that point and we're still trying to do our relationships
still trying to do our relationships efficiently in this busy busy world. And
efficiently in this busy busy world. And I understand why. And the tools we've
I understand why. And the tools we've been given to do it are attractive. You
been given to do it are attractive. You know, they're attractive. We love a new
know, they're attractive. We love a new shiny thing, humans, and they're they're
shiny thing, humans, and they're they're great. But what's happened is we've
great. But what's happened is we've we've forgotten who we are and how we
we've forgotten who we are and how we need to do it. And our brains did not
need to do it. And our brains did not evolve with the shiny screen. Our brains
evolve with the shiny screen. Our brains evolved in a world where we all lived
evolved in a world where we all lived very very close together. And we need to
very very close together. And we need to kind of in a way go back to that if you
kind of in a way go back to that if you want to f have that fulfilling life. So
want to f have that fulfilling life. So I think that's my first point. I think
I think that's my first point. I think the second one is the role for AI. Uh,
the second one is the role for AI. Uh, and you've probably talked about AI in
and you've probably talked about AI in so many different contexts, but AI in
so many different contexts, but AI in our intimate relationships, and I don't
our intimate relationships, and I don't mean just sexually intimate, I mean
mean just sexually intimate, I mean emotionally intimate. So, any
emotionally intimate. So, any relationship you have based on love is
relationship you have based on love is something we need to talk about because
something we need to talk about because there is work towards, for example, we
there is work towards, for example, we know about AI chatbots already. Uh, and
know about AI chatbots already. Uh, and we know that there's going to be work
we know that there's going to be work towards having AI caretakers, for
towards having AI caretakers, for example, people who care for people,
example, people who care for people, robots who care for people, or even, you
robots who care for people, or even, you know, you could even possibly have a
know, you could even possibly have a relationship. I'm not talking about sex
relationship. I'm not talking about sex bots, but I'm talking about a full
bots, but I'm talking about a full relationship with a robot. Again, all of
relationship with a robot. Again, all of these things, we need to understand the
these things, we need to understand the implications and we need to have a
implications and we need to have a conversation now because when you
conversation now because when you unleash these things, if you haven't had
unleash these things, if you haven't had that conversation, it's very hard to put
that conversation, it's very hard to put them back in the box. And we know
them back in the box. And we know already things like chat bots are out
already things like chat bots are out there and I'm not the sort to say
there and I'm not the sort to say something is entirely negative. So, chat
something is entirely negative. So, chat bots have their place. They've been
bots have their place. They've been shown to be really, really good for
shown to be really, really good for particularly with people who have social
particularly with people who have social anxiety or people who are, for example,
anxiety or people who are, for example, autistic and want to practice being
autistic and want to practice being social. They're really good. You're not
social. They're really good. You're not going to get any criticism from the
going to get any criticism from the chatbot. You're not going to get a funny
chatbot. You're not going to get a funny face pulled or make them feel
face pulled or make them feel uncomfortable. It's great. You can have
uncomfortable. It's great. You can have a good old and that's brilliant. It's
a good old and that's brilliant. It's when you replace real human contact.
when you replace real human contact. Absolutely. It's
Absolutely. It's it makes the conversation feel a lot
it makes the conversation feel a lot more comfortable and natural. Um, and
more comfortable and natural. Um, and you can really focus on the chat itself,
you can really focus on the chat itself, distractions. It uh it definitely helps
distractions. It uh it definitely helps keep the vibe positive. Isn't it crazy
keep the vibe positive. Isn't it crazy how much that's progressed? Yeah, it is.
how much that's progressed? Yeah, it is. But what scares me about it is that
But what scares me about it is that person talking to you there. Your brain
person talking to you there. Your brain at the moment because we haven't
at the moment because we haven't advanced enough in AI and maybe well
advanced enough in AI and maybe well knows that's not human. And because it
knows that's not human. And because it knows it's not human, it's not releasing
knows it's not human, it's not releasing any of the positive chemicals that come
any of the positive chemicals that come with social interaction in your brain.
with social interaction in your brain. And it's those chemicals that underpin
And it's those chemicals that underpin your health, your mental health and your
your health, your mental health and your physical health. Be sure often underpins
physical health. Be sure often underpins your immune system. So that's the
your immune system. So that's the problem. Your prefrontal cortex at the
problem. Your prefrontal cortex at the moment is not recognizing that as human.
moment is not recognizing that as human. So it's not going to kick off anything.
So it's not going to kick off anything. And that is the problem. Now maybe a
And that is the problem. Now maybe a robot, you know, an AI guy would say to
robot, you know, an AI guy would say to me, "Oh, we'll get there." Okay, if you
me, "Oh, we'll get there." Okay, if you can get there, great. But at the moment,
can get there, great. But at the moment, we're not. And we have people who are
we're not. And we have people who are starting to build really strong
starting to build really strong attachments to these things. You can
attachments to these things. You can build an attachment to a chatbot. It's a
build an attachment to a chatbot. It's a parasocial relationship. Same as
parasocial relationship. Same as building a relationship to a celebrity
building a relationship to a celebrity you've never met, but you're not getting
you've never met, but you're not getting any of the positive benefits. So have
any of the positive benefits. So have them in their life. Have them as part of
them in their life. Have them as part of your social network. if you want to
your social network. if you want to spend time, but do not replace humans
spend time, but do not replace humans with them or even dogs with them. Um,
with them or even dogs with them. Um, care robots scare me because um again
care robots scare me because um again it's about replacing humans in a context
it's about replacing humans in a context which is very very complicated from a
which is very very complicated from a neuroscientific point of view. Care
neuroscientific point of view. Care requires empathy. It requires um a thing
requires empathy. It requires um a thing called which occurs in very close human
called which occurs in very close human relationships again underpins our um
relationships again underpins our um immune system and our health known as
immune system and our health known as biobehavioral synchrony. So bio
biobehavioral synchrony. So bio behavioral synchrony, we won't have it
behavioral synchrony, we won't have it now. I'm really sorry. We're not close
now. I'm really sorry. We're not close enough. But you will have it with your
enough. But you will have it with your partner. So when you're with your
partner. So when you're with your partner, if I were to observe you, your
partner, if I were to observe you, your body language and maybe the gestures you
body language and maybe the gestures you use and the and your vocal tone and
use and the and your vocal tone and maybe the language you use would start
maybe the language you use would start kind of matching each other. We all know
kind of matching each other. We all know this from management training. You know,
this from management training. You know, you match people to make them feel
you match people to make them feel closer to you. Fine. It's what humans
closer to you. Fine. It's what humans do. It makes us feel close to each
do. It makes us feel close to each other. But if we were to look into your
other. But if we were to look into your body, you and your partner would have
body, you and your partner would have entered that room at different baseline
entered that room at different baseline levels of physiological measures such as
levels of physiological measures such as your blood pressure, your heart rate,
your blood pressure, your heart rate, your body temperature. Okay? If you sat
your body temperature. Okay? If you sat together and had a chat for five
together and had a chat for five minutes, those would all come into
minutes, those would all come into synchrony. So your heart rates would
synchrony. So your heart rates would synchronize, your body temperature and
synchronize, your body temperature and your blood pressure. And then if we were
your blood pressure. And then if we were to look into your brain, two things
to look into your brain, two things would have happened. First of all,
would have happened. First of all, having come into the room again with
having come into the room again with different activation patterns in your
different activation patterns in your brain, we would look in your brain and
brain, we would look in your brain and your activation patterns would be the
your activation patterns would be the same. So you would be perceiving the
same. So you would be perceiving the world in the same way. And finally, if
world in the same way. And finally, if we looked at your neurochemical levels,
we looked at your neurochemical levels, so we generally look at oxytocin because
so we generally look at oxytocin because it's easiest to access. Again, we all
it's easiest to access. Again, we all have baseline levels of oxytocin.
have baseline levels of oxytocin. They're different from each other. You
They're different from each other. You would have walked in with different
would have walked in with different levels. After 5 minutes, they would have
levels. After 5 minutes, they would have synchronized. They would be the same. So
synchronized. They would be the same. So what actually happens when you're with
what actually happens when you're with someone you're close to to develop that
someone you're close to to develop that bond is you become one organism.
bond is you become one organism. You are literally operating as one
You are literally operating as one being. And we think that's that in a way
being. And we think that's that in a way is the absolute fundamental basis of
is the absolute fundamental basis of human close love and it's the fundament
human close love and it's the fundament and you don't get that at the moment
and you don't get that at the moment with an AI robot. And I can't imagine it
with an AI robot. And I can't imagine it being easy because you need a wet brain
being easy because you need a wet brain and you need a circulatory system. This
and you need a circulatory system. This um this picture I have here which talks
um this picture I have here which talks about the brain and love. What is that
about the brain and love. What is that showing? That's showing that we can I'll
showing? That's showing that we can I'll throw it up on the screen but yes it's
throw it up on the screen but yes it's showing that we can't get the same depth
showing that we can't get the same depth of love as it relates to neuroscience
of love as it relates to neuroscience that then we can from a human versus
that then we can from a human versus like a pet. Yes. So what's happening
like a pet. Yes. So what's happening here? So we've got the different sorts
here? So we've got the different sorts of love. So we've got romantic love and
of love. So we've got romantic love and parental love. Now these two arguably
parental love. Now these two arguably are the most intense forms of love.
are the most intense forms of love. Okay? Uh that's why you see such
Okay? Uh that's why you see such amazingly complex areas of the brain
amazingly complex areas of the brain lighting up. You've got a lot happening
lighting up. You've got a lot happening in the core of the brain here. This is
in the core of the brain here. This is the lyic system. And you've got
the lyic system. And you've got happening neoccortically as well in
happening neoccortically as well in relation to areas related to um social
relation to areas related to um social behavior but also things like
behavior but also things like empathizing, okay, and maintenance and
empathizing, okay, and maintenance and trust and all those sorts of things.
trust and all those sorts of things. Love for a friend is from a
Love for a friend is from a neuroscientific point of view nearly as
neuroscientific point of view nearly as complicated as romantic love. But what
complicated as romantic love. But what it doesn't actually have which is really
it doesn't actually have which is really interesting is in romantic love the
interesting is in romantic love the difference is we actually get some
difference is we actually get some activations which mirror the activations
activations which mirror the activations you get if you're on an opiate. Mhm.
you get if you're on an opiate. Mhm. That sort of addictive euphoric um
That sort of addictive euphoric um sensation. You get that you get that
sensation. You get that you get that pattern in romantic love. You don't get
pattern in romantic love. You don't get it in friendship love. You also don't
it in friendship love. You also don't generally get biobehavioral synchrony in
generally get biobehavioral synchrony in friendship unless it's a really close
friendship unless it's a really close friend. So friendship love is just less
friend. So friendship love is just less intense. It's a love but it's not as
intense. It's a love but it's not as intense. I wouldn't describe this as
intense. I wouldn't describe this as love for a stranger. What you can see
love for a stranger. What you can see the reason why I say that is can you see
the reason why I say that is can you see how little unconscious activation there
how little unconscious activation there is? This is the limbic area. Well that's
is? This is the limbic area. Well that's the same with the pet. So so we get
the same with the pet. So so we get we're not getting any unconscious
we're not getting any unconscious nurturing attachment behaviors which you
nurturing attachment behaviors which you wouldn't expect to get with a stranger.
wouldn't expect to get with a stranger. with a pet. I'm surprised to look at
with a pet. I'm surprised to look at this and I don't know where this came
this and I don't know where this came from because other studies have shown
from because other studies have shown that pet love is very like parental
that pet love is very like parental love. Oh, really? Yeah. So, I don't know
love. Oh, really? Yeah. So, I don't know which study this is and I don't know
which study this is and I don't know what they looked at or how many people
what they looked at or how many people they looked at. So, that's interesting.
they looked at. So, that's interesting. But what I would expect to see more more
But what I would expect to see more more actually here in the nurturing area
actually here in the nurturing area because we do know that um you can build
because we do know that um you can build an attachment relationship with a pet.
an attachment relationship with a pet. So, it's very surprising that there's
So, it's very surprising that there's nothing there.
nothing there. The research you have there looked at
The research you have there looked at the differences between friends, loves,
the differences between friends, loves, pet strangers. Um, it's from Renee Atel
pet strangers. Um, it's from Renee Atel cerebral cortex, a 2024 study. Okay.
cerebral cortex, a 2024 study. Okay. Okay. That's interesting. I mean, with
Okay. That's interesting. I mean, with science, you sometimes get different
science, you sometimes get different answers because you've done different
answers because you've done different methodology or you've got different
methodology or you've got different populations. We tend to like to see
populations. We tend to like to see things replicated for them to be
things replicated for them to be converted. So, I'm a bit surprised by
converted. So, I'm a bit surprised by this. Also, in my book, I talk about
this. Also, in my book, I talk about some really good studies that have been
some really good studies that have been done looking at dog human love. So I'm
done looking at dog human love. So I'm surprised by that. I'm not surprised
surprised by that. I'm not surprised that it's got quite a a bit of cortical
that it's got quite a a bit of cortical action. I'm really surprised it has
action. I'm really surprised it has nothing in the limbic area because
nothing in the limbic area because that's where attachment is. And love for
that's where attachment is. And love for nature. Um again this is really
nature. Um again this is really interesting because again this is this
interesting because again this is this is the striatum and the amydala and this
is the striatum and the amydala and this is where human love like to another
is where human love like to another sentient being would be. And again we've
sentient being would be. And again we've got nothing. So love for nature is a
got nothing. So love for nature is a much more it's not a conscious thing
much more it's not a conscious thing but it's a much less emotional thing.
but it's a much less emotional thing. It's it's different. And and we only
It's it's different. And and we only really see patterns like this if you're
really see patterns like this if you're interacting with another sentient being.
interacting with another sentient being. And this is what kind of worries me
And this is what kind of worries me about AI because if you did this with
about AI because if you did this with AI, you would probably get something
AI, you would probably get something like this. If you really loved your AI
like this. If you really loved your AI robot at the moment or your chatbot, you
robot at the moment or your chatbot, you would get this. But you I would be very
would get this. But you I would be very surprised if you got anything in the
surprised if you got anything in the limbic area. And and and the studies so
limbic area. And and and the studies so far show that we don't because you you
far show that we don't because you you don't develop that loving relationship
don't develop that loving relationship and you certainly don't get anything in
and you certainly don't get anything in the prefrontal cortex. And that's the
the prefrontal cortex. And that's the problem. Now AI might go on in leaps and
problem. Now AI might go on in leaps and bounds, but I at the moment when they
bounds, but I at the moment when they talk about programming empathy, empathy
talk about programming empathy, empathy is so complicated and particularly the
is so complicated and particularly the empathy we have, we have cognitive
empathy we have, we have cognitive empathy. Most animals have emotional
empathy. Most animals have emotional empathy. So cognitive empathy is much
empathy. So cognitive empathy is much more complex. It's very hard to do and
more complex. It's very hard to do and the fact you can't get biobehavioral
the fact you can't get biobehavioral synchrony unless you have a wet system.
synchrony unless you have a wet system. And robots so far don't have wet
And robots so far don't have wet systems. So that's what worries me. But
systems. So that's what worries me. But it's going to come and we have to have
it's going to come and we have to have that conversation.
that conversation. We have a closing tradition where the
We have a closing tradition where the last guest leaves the question for the
last guest leaves the question for the next guest knowing not knowing who
next guest knowing not knowing who they're leaving it for. Okay. And the
they're leaving it for. Okay. And the question that's been left for you, was
question that's been left for you, was there a moment in your career when you
there a moment in your career when you said to yourself, I have made it.
said to yourself, I have made it. Um I think I'm not good at doing that
Um I think I'm not good at doing that actually. I said to my husband the other
actually. I said to my husband the other day, I'm not good at celebrating when I
day, I'm not good at celebrating when I do something. So I tend to go, what's
do something. So I tend to go, what's next?
next? um very human. I suppose one of the
um very human. I suppose one of the times I thought I probably had made it
times I thought I probably had made it was when I started at the University of
was when I started at the University of Oxford and I was working with Robin
Oxford and I was working with Robin Dumbar and then I thought from an
Dumbar and then I thought from an academic point of view this is like the
academic point of view this is like the pinnacle of where you can work with a
pinnacle of where you can work with a team of people who are at the forefront
team of people who are at the forefront of what they're doing. So I think that
of what they're doing. So I think that was probably a moment but I'm really
was probably a moment but I'm really good in retrospect at kind of rewriting
good in retrospect at kind of rewriting that and going yeah but that wasn't good
that and going yeah but that wasn't good enough so let's go and do the next
enough so let's go and do the next thing. So so if we look forward then sat
thing. So so if we look forward then sat here now
here now What do you think the moment will be in
What do you think the moment will be in your future where you think you've made
your future where you think you've made it? Although you probably when you
it? Although you probably when you arrive there, you'll think, you know,
arrive there, you'll think, you know, there's another goal.
there's another goal. I think
I think it's partly to do with the spreading of
it's partly to do with the spreading of education. I think if my next book
education. I think if my next book reaches a lot of people and reaches
reaches a lot of people and reaches enough people, I will think I've made it
enough people, I will think I've made it and I've done my mission to share what
and I've done my mission to share what we know about dads because there's so
we know about dads because there's so much written and it stays in fusty old
much written and it stays in fusty old journals and nobody reads it. And I want
journals and nobody reads it. And I want to share that because it fundamentally
to share that because it fundamentally changes
changes how who dads think they are and how they
how who dads think they are and how they do it. I get so many emails from people
do it. I get so many emails from people saying, you know, wow, I've read your
saying, you know, wow, I've read your book and it like legitimizes so much for
book and it like legitimizes so much for me. It makes me understand what I'm
me. It makes me understand what I'm going through or it makes me realize
going through or it makes me realize that I am needed. And I think if I can
that I am needed. And I think if I can get a book that has a really diverse
get a book that has a really diverse readership, then that will be the moment
readership, then that will be the moment where I think yes, I've done what I want
where I think yes, I've done what I want to do. And what is the um unheard plight
to do. And what is the um unheard plight of dads? Because you'll be on the
of dads? Because you'll be on the receiving end of so many messages and
receiving end of so many messages and emails and stuff. What if you could
emails and stuff. What if you could summarize how dads are feeling at the
summarize how dads are feeling at the moment and why your work is resonating?
moment and why your work is resonating? How would you summarize if if you were
How would you summarize if if you were speaking as a dad, a dad who represents
speaking as a dad, a dad who represents the average of the dads that contact
the average of the dads that contact you? What would those sentences be? It
you? What would those sentences be? It would be, I'm made to feel unimportant.
would be, I'm made to feel unimportant. I am made to feel like a secondary
I am made to feel like a secondary parent, like a bag carrier or the person
parent, like a bag carrier or the person who makes the tea. That's particularly
who makes the tea. That's particularly in relation to like birth and antiatal
in relation to like birth and antiatal stuff. So, it's all about them not
stuff. So, it's all about them not feeling like they are important or that
feeling like they are important or that they're needed. and they are so wrong.
they're needed. and they are so wrong. Is the law slightly biased towards Do
Is the law slightly biased towards Do you know how why I asked that question?
you know how why I asked that question? I was in a cab the other day and I got
I was in a cab the other day and I got in this taxi in uh in London and the cab
in this taxi in uh in London and the cab driver um spent about 30 minutes telling
driver um spent about 30 minutes telling me that he'd been at a march in London
me that he'd been at a march in London for dads and that he had had his child
for dads and that he had had his child taken off him, I believe. Mhm. and he
taken off him, I believe. Mhm. and he was proceeded to tell me for the next
was proceeded to tell me for the next sort of 20 minutes that the laws are
sort of 20 minutes that the laws are unfair as it relates to dad's right to
unfair as it relates to dad's right to to see and take care of their kids.
to see and take care of their kids. Yeah, you probably know the laws better
Yeah, you probably know the laws better than I do, but it is and we I've spent a
than I do, but it is and we I've spent a long time and I'm still not there yet
long time and I'm still not there yet wanting to go into the family courts in
wanting to go into the family courts in Britain and inform them about this
Britain and inform them about this because at the moment they're operating
because at the moment they're operating on out modded um understandings that the
on out modded um understandings that the primary person a child needs is their
primary person a child needs is their mom and therefore if there's any
mom and therefore if there's any possible reason why dad they don't think
possible reason why dad they don't think dad is appropriate, whatever it might
dad is appropriate, whatever it might be, it might be that dad's living too
be, it might be that dad's living too far away or dad's job doesn't allow for
far away or dad's job doesn't allow for it. They will not stick to the
it. They will not stick to the presumption of 50/50 custody and they
presumption of 50/50 custody and they will swing it all over in terms in in
will swing it all over in terms in in favor of mom, for example. And that is
favor of mom, for example. And that is because they do not fundamentally
because they do not fundamentally understand how important that father is
understand how important that father is to that child. And that's because
to that child. And that's because they've not kept up. They're literally
they've not kept up. They're literally they're operating on very outmoded
they're operating on very outmoded completely culturally based, not
completely culturally based, not evidencebased at all assumptions about
evidencebased at all assumptions about who a father is. So he's right. He's
who a father is. So he's right. He's absolutely right. And there are many men
absolutely right. And there are many men who are in that position. I get emailed
who are in that position. I get emailed all the time from men doing and all the
all the time from men doing and all the time from people saying, you know, well,
time from people saying, you know, well, you come and be my expert witness, et
you come and be my expert witness, et and I can't I can't do it. I I don't
and I can't I can't do it. I I don't have time to do it. But yeah, there's a
have time to do it. But yeah, there's a fundamental misunderstanding of how
fundamental misunderstanding of how important fathers are, but that's just
important fathers are, but that's just reflecting a wider cultural problem.
reflecting a wider cultural problem. Thank you. Thank you so much for doing
Thank you. Thank you so much for doing the work you're doing because you're
the work you're doing because you're certainly opening millions and millions
certainly opening millions and millions of people's eyes. You've opened my eyes
of people's eyes. You've opened my eyes in a a bunch of profound ways, both on
in a a bunch of profound ways, both on the subject of love, but also on the
the subject of love, but also on the importance of fatherhood. And it is very
importance of fatherhood. And it is very easy to to believe the sort of broader
easy to to believe the sort of broader social narrative that as a father you
social narrative that as a father you are surplus to requirements or you're
are surplus to requirements or you're some I don't know you're there to to pay
some I don't know you're there to to pay for things or you're um less important
for things or you're um less important in some way. But you know I've got a
in some way. But you know I've got a brother who's a year older than me and
brother who's a year older than me and he's got three kids under the age of six
he's got three kids under the age of six and um he's really managed to design his
and um he's really managed to design his life around being there for those kids.
life around being there for those kids. And I've seen both the impact that
And I've seen both the impact that that's had on those kids and their
that's had on those kids and their development but also the impact it's had
development but also the impact it's had on him and the meaning he has in his
on him and the meaning he has in his life. and he's one of those fathers that
life. and he's one of those fathers that um walked away from the corporate world
um walked away from the corporate world and made a decision to prioritize the
and made a decision to prioritize the three little children that he's brought
three little children that he's brought into this world. And it's really like
into this world. And it's really like kind of blew open my own I guess
kind of blew open my own I guess stereotypes and presumptions that I had
stereotypes and presumptions that I had about the role that I have when I become
about the role that I have when I become a dad. And now much of the reason I have
a dad. And now much of the reason I have these conversations and enjoy your work
these conversations and enjoy your work so much is because it's a further
so much is because it's a further reminder that um the narrative I've
reminder that um the narrative I've believed around fathers being this you
believed around fathers being this you know kind of distant uh being that
know kind of distant uh being that floats in and out in provides you blow
floats in and out in provides you blow it open and you blow it open from a
it open and you blow it open from a anthropological perspective and
anthropological perspective and evolutionary perspective and a
evolutionary perspective and a neuroscience and biological perspective
neuroscience and biological perspective which I think is really critical and I
which I think is really critical and I think because of that there's going to
think because of that there's going to be so many kids that have better
be so many kids that have better development outcomes and so please do
development outcomes and so please do keep doing the work you're doing and I'm
keep doing the work you're doing and I'm very excited for your upcoming book.
very excited for your upcoming book. Thank you so much. Thank you for being
Thank you so much. Thank you for being here. Really appreciate you. Thank you.
here. Really appreciate you. Thank you. Thank you.
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