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World Expert on Love: Your Brain Already Picked Your Partner (But They’re Lying About Monogamy)

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We are not a monogous species. It's a

social construct. And I get attacked for

saying things like this. But sexual

monogamy from an evolution point of view

is not a good idea. That's why we have a

reasonably high rate of people who have

extramarital affairs. So do you think

we're all somewhat pretending to be

monogous? Who do you think struggles

with it more, men or women? And you said

that there's not a difference in

well-being and satisfaction between

polyamory or monogamy. Absolutely not.

How do we know this? Because we've done

studies on it. And I've committed the

last two decades of my life to

understand the neuroscience of love. Dr.

animation is the Oxford trained

evolutionary anthropologist using

science to decode attraction, attachment

styles, love addiction, and now the

crucial roles of the father. So, here's

the thing. When we look for a partner,

we don't know we're doing it, and it

involves two very distinct areas of the

brain. So, there's the unconscious

stage. That's where you take in loads of

sensory information about them. So, for

example, if you're a woman, you can

smell genetic compatibility. Wait, so

men can't smell women, but women can

smell them? You can smell them, but it's

not going to give you any information

about genetic compatibility. So, your

brain is going to help you assess

whether they're any good for you. If you

get a good ping, certain chemicals, the

very core of the brain take away the

fear. It gives you motivation. Now,

human love is so complicated. So, for

example, the chemistry that underpins

love is also involved in

neurodeiversity. So, if I have ADHD or

autism, how am I more likely to struggle

in love? This is really, really

important. First of all,

Dr. Machan, why are you talking about

fatherhood? The way our culture treats

fathers is wrong. The myths we carry

about fathers are wrong. Men have a very

specific role in child development. And

I wasn't expecting to find this when I

first started, but it's fundamental for

a child to thrive and survive and be

successful. So, what we're finding is

this has always blown my mind a little

bit. 53% of you that listen to this show

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that you want me to speak to and we'll

continue to do what we do. Thank you so much.

Dr. Anna Machan, what is the the mission

you've so far committed your life to?

And and I guess adding to that, why I've

committed the last two decades of my

life to understanding human love and

understanding human close relationships.

Because as an anthropologist, I

understand that love sits at the center

of what it is to be human. If you strip

everything else away and you just you've

got your food, you've got your water,

the next thing you need are your

relationships, is your love. And we are

so lucky as a species to experience love

in quite a complex way with many

different types of people and beings.

And we know that it's like the number

one thing in terms of your your health,

mental, physical, your longevity, your

happiness, your well-being. And I think

we need to understand it particularly in

a world where we're starting to get a

lot of input in terms of technology and

AI and the world is getting quicker. We

need to go back to who we are really at

our core and what love really is. is and

and I suppose that's what I've I've

given my life over to is to really

explain to people who are you because

your love is your identity essentially.

And you use the word anthropologist

there. What is an anthropologist? Okay.

So an anthropologist is somebody who

studies the human species. I'm an

evolutionary anthropologist which means

I sit at the scientific end of it. You

consider sort of the cultural end or the

scientific end. And I study how

evolution has shaped us and also why

things evolved. So for example, why did

love evolved? Why did fatherhood evolve?

Um, and I use lots and lots of different

techniques, scanning and genetics and

all these different things to be able to

answer that question. I've got another

book sat in front of me here which is I

guess somewhat linked to love which is

about fathers. Yeah. So, how did how did

these two things come together? We've

got a book here about love and then

we've got a book about fatherhood and

you're you're very well known for

talking on the subject of fatherhood.

What what is the link? How did the link

come to be and why why are you talking

about fatherhood? We have the wrong idea

about fathers. The way our culture deals

with fathers, treats fathers is wrong.

The myths we carry about fathers are

wrong. The influence they have on their

children and ultimately on our society

is fundamental. So the link came because

I had a child and like most couples who

have a baby, you know, we talked about

it. We were like, we're going to going

to start trying to have a baby. Then we

became pregnant, which was great. Did

the pregnancy test together. Went to the

antiatal classes, went to the scans, all

wonderful. went in to have the baby and

it didn't turn out how it was supposed

to. I was very, very ill. I lost a lot

of blood. My daughter was poorly when

she was born. And afterwards, I was

offered loads of counseling. Would you

like a debrief? Would you like? And I

was like, well, to be absolutely honest,

I'm okay cuz I passed out. I literally

don't remember anything. But my husband

witnessed it all. And he basically saw a

car crash in slow motion with two people

in it who he loved very deeply. Um, and

I completely understand why it was a

very stressful information. But nobody

explained to him what was happening. And

so they mopped me up, took my baby, took

her to neonatal care and left him in the

room on his own. And I was breathing

very shallowly and he was scared. And

the cleaner came in and said and was

cleaning away. And he just said um to

the cleaner, do you think she's dead?

Cuz I was breathing so shallowly. And

the cleaner went, no, I don't think so,

mate. I think they would have told you

if she was dead. But after that, he

couldn't talk about the birth. He

couldn't imagine the birth. He couldn't

deal with the emotions from the birth

for a good two years afterwards. And he

was really worried about having another

kid. And this made me really angry

actually cuz I was like, hold on, we

went into this together and he's

literally been discarded like he doesn't

matter. And to me, he's fundamentally

important. And then as our daughter

grew, I saw the amazing bond he built

with her, how integral he was to her

life. And so when I went back to

university at Oxford to study and to do

my work, I thought, well, I'm an

anthropologist. Okay, let's look up what

do we know about fathers in our society.

And there's literally nothing. There was

a lot of work on absent fathers. Uh, and

their impact is is fundamental. We know

that. And there was a lot of quite

stereotypical work on young fathers,

teenage fathers. Nothing on the majority

of dads who whether they co-reside or

not stick around. So I started with some

really simple questions. uh what happens

to a man when he becomes a father? Does

he alter biologically, psychologically?

How does he build his bond with his

child? What's the nature of that bond?

Does he have a role in child development

separate to that to mom? Because when I

started 20 years ago, the mantra was

dads didn't undergo any changes. Uh dads

did not have a bond like mom to their

children. It was not as intense and it

certainly wasn't an attachment

relationship, which we all know are

really intense, important relationships.

And as an evolutionary anthropologist, I

was like that that can't be right

because human fatherhood is rare. We are

one of only 5% of mammals that have

investing fathers and we're the only ape

now. For something that rare to evolve,

it has to have had a purpose because it

led to amazing anatomical social

upheavalss. So that's what I began to do

20 years ago. I started asking those

questions. I recruited my first group of

15 firsttime fathers when their partners

were three months pregnant and off we

went. So the question that's front of

mind for me is is what is it upstream

that made us devalue the role of a of a

father? Where did that come from?

Because fathers are somewhat seen as

surplus a requirement I think. Where did

that come from? It's cultural. It's

entirely cultural because there are

cultures in the world who don't think

that and fathers are very very integral.

So in fact one of the most hands-on

fathers in the world is from the aka

tribe in the Congo. They keep physical

contact with their children for 50% of

the day. They carry them around. They

co-sleep. Not the mom. They co-s sleep

with the with the child. They are the

one that that carries the far the child

through the jungle when they're hunting

and gathering. They are the one that

sings to the child, reads stories to the

child. They even and this is the bit

that always gets the headlines. They

even will offer a nipple to soo the

child until the mother is ready to

breastfeed. So, it's cultural. We have

this idea that and it's partly it partly

came very much from the Victorian period

where fathers were seen to be

disciplinarians and and providing the

money and that was the Victorian idea of

being a father. It's also to do with our

with our with our politics in society

for a long time. So women weren't able

to go out to work and that's where we've

remained till very very recently. But

there's no biology behind that. That's

entirely cultural. And I think also it's

very much the case. Yes, women today we

have contraception so we can control our

our production of children. We can earn

our own money. We can protect ourselves.

We can look after ourselves. So actually

in one sense you think well yeah what's

the dad for? because I can do all those

things which historically the father had

to do when women's positions were

different. But and we've sort of carried

on with that and there's become this

mantra of actually then we just we just

don't need them. I mean I've even been

to lectures where they've decided that

the Y chromosome is going to become

obsolete and that we really won't need

dads at all even to conceive children at

some point and which to me sounds

ludicrous and that's where it's come

from and we've embedded that and we

embedded it in our media. So dads were

always bumbling or useless or absent.

you know, Daddy Pig is the ultimate

bumbling, useless father, and we laughed

at it. We think it's funny. Maybe the

way that these these two subjects

initially do sort of dovetail into each

other, is when we think about the state

of love and the role of men and women,

you touched a bit on there when you

talked about how women are earning more

and more, so men are becoming a little

bit more apparently obsolete in what

they can offer to a monogous

relationship. There were some stats that

I was looking at before you arrived, and

I'll read them out to you. The stats say

that only 38% of single women are

actively looking to date versus 61% of

single men. Um, which is a huge gap.

Morgan Stanley projects that 45% of

women aged 25 to 44 will be single by 2030.

2030.

Um, in England and Wales, a record

almost 40% of adults have never married.

For women aged 30 to 34, the figure is

now almost 60%.

Which is the lowest ever. Women initiate

roughly 70% of divorces, showing a

greater willingness to exit marriages

that are unsatisfying than men. And

obviously, I think one of the points you

were sort of touching on there is that

women are now much more educated um as

it relates to things like college

degrees compared to men. There's this

bigger picture around relationships and

love that kind of sits in the background

of this and women's rise in

independence, which I think we could all

agree is is always going to be a

positive thing. But downstream from that

is a clear issue in how we form monogous

heterosexual relationships these days.

And also like

you know part of the reason one of many

reasons I wanted to speak to you is I

was I was thinking about my friendship

group and the women that I know and more

I spoke to a friend of mine a couple of

couple of weeks ago and I I said to her

like what like what are your goals and

she said I currently have about 150

plants and I want to get to about 250

plants. I I said to her do you want you

want to get married? You want to have

kids? She went no interest in that. What

I want is I want to get to the point

where I have financial freedom. so I can

buy a house and I want to get over 200

plants. Yeah. And this is it sounds kind

of funny, but it's an increasingly

familiar story that I'm hearing which is

once upon a time the goal would have

been get married, you know, have kids,

build a life together. Now it's more individualistic.

individualistic.

What's your thoughts here? What is the

state of love at the moment? Well, it's

definitely more individualistic. We've

become a more individualistic society.

So we are looking more at yes what do I

want rather than what what in a way

contributes to community which is what

collectivist societies do women in the

past had to get married you couldn't

have children out of wedlock that was

definitely not acceptable you had to get

married because uh that's where your

financial security was and that's what

you did quite often those marriages

weren't based on love they were based on

very pragmatic decisions about this is

where I need to be so women have been

freed from that they don't have to do

that anymore the other thing to say is

they've realized that romantic love

isn't the only love in the box what we

call their key survival critical

relationship in many cases. So the

relationship that's going to support

them emotionally, physically,

practically, all those sorts of things

are their female friends, their chosen

families and that's who they're turning

to. And that's why we're seeing less and

less women saying that romantic love is

a priority or parental love is a

priority. And in one sense, that's great

because actually it's showing that all

these loves are equal and I can I can

love in that way. And I think that's

wonderful in one sense, but yes, it does

mean that we're turning away from that

idea of long-term cohabiting

companionship. And so when people say to

me, for example, is marriage going to

die? Are we going to end? No, I don't

think it is. We will always, for

example, have a ritualistic marking of a

romantic relationship, whatever sex you

are and whatever sexuality you are, I

think that will always exist. But we're

going through a bit of a sea change.

We're also seeing it in older women,

post-menopausal women, because it's only

really very recently that we've got to a

point where we have a long

post-menopausal lifespan as women.

Usually, you know, 100 years ago, if you

got to 50, which is the age for

menopause, the standard age, you were

lucky if you were still alive. But now

that period of time could be 20, 30, 40,

even 50 years. So I think women post 50

and they there's been a massive uptick

in post50 divorces instigated by women

is they look at their partner and they

think you were a great dad. I selected

you when when that's what I wanted to

do. I wanted to have children. I wanted

to build fun. But I look at you now and

I think but is this the person I want to

do the next phase of my life with

because that's a very different set of

needs. And so we're seeing women

actually looking no do you know what I'm

going to start a fresh? I'm going to do

something different. And it might be

they look for a different relationship

or they might be yeah they decide I'm

not going to have another romantic

relationship. What is the difference

that needs just out of curiosity? I want

to make sure that my partner doesn't

dump me when she hits 50. Okay. The

difference is so when we when we are

younger and we look for a partner for a

romantic relationship we don't know

we're doing it. There are two stages of

attraction in romantic love. There's the

unconscious stage which we share with

all the mammals and then there's the the

conscious stage which is very different.

That involves your neoortex which

looking at this is this big wnup bit on

the outside. Human love is special

because it involves two very distinct

areas of the brain. So this is the

limbic area of your brain. This bit in

the center here, that's your unconscious

brain. That's where your emotions sit,

where nurturing behaviors sit, where

attachment behaviors been. It's very

evolutionarily ancient. It's been around

for millions and millions of years. And

this is where initially attraction

starts. And what you do is you lock eyes

with someone across a crowded room and

you take in loads of sensory information

about them. So you take in visual

information. What do they look like?

What does their body shape tell me about

their value? How are they moving? Do

they look healthy? If you're a woman,

you will give them a good sniff. Um, and

you can smell genetic compatibility.

Wait, so men can can't smell women, but

women can smell them. Well, you can

smell them, but it's not going to give

you any information about genetic

compatibility. So, what what happens is

a woman, the major hystocompatibility

complex, what's that? It underpins your

immune system. It's a complex set of

genes. And bizarrely that set of genes

also underpins your smell, your ability

to smell your olfactory system. Okay?

And in women they can smell how

genetically close a male's MHC is major

hystocompatibility complex. How close it

is to theirs because you don't want too

close because you don't want to breed.

Also you want it distant because then

your child gets a really lovely diverse

immune system because they've got a

diverse set of genes underpinning it. So

you smell them. It's not a conscious

thing. So people say to me, "Oh, but you

know what about after shave? What about

perfumes? Or it's not conscious. You do

not know you're doing it. And one of the

things that will be fed into your limbic

area is the result of that little test.

If you're a woman, what what do they

smell like? How do they know this? Have

they tested this? Okay, we've tested

this in several ways. There was the very

famous t-shirt test which tell people

love. Um where you make a load of men

put on a very plain t-shirt. They're not

allowed to wash. They're not allowed to

use deodorant. Not allowed to do

anything. Wear it for 24 hours. Then we

put it in some ziploc bags and we went

get some poor unsuspecting woman to

sniff them all. And the idea is that the

one she finds most attractive to sniff

is the one which is genetically furthest

away from her. And it does work. It

works. When you genotype her, you can

see that they are different. We don't

have to do that anymore. We have very

sophisticated genotyping technology now.

If you really wanted to, there's a

company in Switzerland that will do it

for you. So you can spit on something,

send it off with your partner, and they

will tell you how close your major

hystocompatibility complexes are. I'm

just wondering why men didn't evolve to

be able to do that. We think it's

probably because the cost to a woman of

getting it wrong and having a baby who

is basically too genetically close is

much greater than it is for a man

because she is basically taking herself

out of that opportunity to to reproduce

for nine months plus the bit after to

look after that child. And so that's a

really long period of time. Whereas a

man, it's not that costly. Okay. So

you've taken in all that information

from the sensors. It's all woring around

in here. And what your brain is actually

doing is your brain has got a very

complicated algorithm which is working

out the biological market value of the

person in front of you. Now the

biological market value is how likely

that person is to be reproductively

successful. Because from an evolutionary

point of view, that's the whole point of

your existence. Whether you want kids or

not, guys, that's the point is you have

to reproduce. Have some lovely, healthy

kids, raise them to maturity so they can

reproduce because we just want your

genes from an evolutionary standpoint.

We're not interested in you as a

personality. And so you want somebody

who has got the highest likelihood of

being good at that. And we can tell that

from lots of things to do with how

someone looks, the pitch of their voice,

how they smell. What men actually do is

they look at the waist hip ratio. You

don't know you're doing it, but

eyetracking experiments show that men do

it. They don't know that it's completely

unconscious. Wonderful studies been done

with people walking down the street with

we not mentioning to them what we're

looking for. They're wearing eyetracking

uh technology and what they do is the

first thing they glance at even if they

don't know it is the waist tip ratio

before. For example, they will look at

the face and what they're calculating is

what that ratio is because we know

cross-culturally the most attractive

ratio is a 7. And that is actually a

classic hourglass

cross-culturally. Cross-culturally if we

go and it's nothing to do with weight

because some cultures like bigger

weights than other cultures. Nothing to

do with weight. It's to do with the

ratio. And so if we were show if we show

that ratio to different cultures, they

will go it's that one. And the reason

for that is there is a direct link

between that ratio and for example

fertility. So if a woman has that it

shows she's got high circulating

estrogen. It shows she's not near

menopause because when we go to

menopause we we get more of a male

figure. It goes towards one the ratio

because of the drop in estrogen and the

and the buildup in testosterone. So we

know that there's a link between 7 and a

range of illnesses uh chronic illnesses

such as diabetes, heart disease, certain

forms of cancer. So actually what you're

assessing there is how healthy how

fertile is this woman? So, if I take

myself off the market for a period of

time, am I going to end up with some

kids? And is she healthy to raise them?

In those eyetracking studies, what do

women look at? Women look at slightly

different things. And for women, what's

really interesting is it's not as

visual. So, women look at the at the

shoulder waist ratio. So, that's Yes,

there we go. And what you're looking for

as a woman is a triangle. So, nice broad

shoulders, narrow waist. Okay. Okay. Now

the ideal there is 1.6.

What I will say before men rush off and

measure their weight is really only

Olympic athletes have 1.6. 1.6 meaning

the top half should be 1.6 bigger than

than your waist. Okay. So if my waist is

let's say 100. Yes. That's how bad my

math is. Yes. This needs to be 160. 160.

Okay. So my waist is 100. The top is

160. Yes. Okay. Okay. But that's

actually really only Olympic athletes.

Please everyone don't rush off and

worry. Um but what that's showing is

that shows certain things which are

desirable in a male. Um so things like

physical strength. So if you have a big

upper body and a narrow waist, first of

all, it shows you're not holding fat

around here, which is a real sign of ill

health for men. It shows you that you're

very fit around here. It shows that

you've got very broad shoulders. You are

muscular. You are able to to protect and

provide. It's a sign of reasonably high

testosterone. Testosterone is linked to

success in men. Okay? So it shows that

I'm I'm a successful person in our

society that's successful socially and

successful financially. Testosterone is

linked to success in men. Yes. Yes.

Because it makes you very competitive.

Okay. So we get all these things. You

take all that in. You take in that

visual information. You do your little

algorithm in your brain which obviously

you don't know is happening. If you get

a good ping as in yes this person has a

good biological market value. I like

that. What happens is in the very core

of the brain in the middle. So this is

this is the very core of the brain here.

There's a a structure in there called

the nucleus cumbent. It's full of

dopamine and oxytocin receptors that

fires off, goes completely mad if we

look at it on the screen. And dopamine

and oxytocin flood that system. And the

reason why they are important is in a

way they are the hormones of attraction.

So oxytocin lowers your inhibitions to

starting new relationships. Okay? So it

takes away the fear. And the way it does

that is it quietens your amydala. So the

amigdula is a tiny little structure down

here at the bottom and it it's where

fear sits and that's the thing that if

you're not feeling confident has that

monologue in the back of your head going

okay you're just you're just not very

good at this. You're going to walk

across the bar. You're going to say

hello and they're going to humiliate

you. So it quietens that area. We see

less activity there. So you've got more

confidence. Also oxtoin makes you feel

quite chilled. It's quite nice. And then

dopamine is also released because

dopamine is your hormone of motivation.

And if you just had oxytocin, you might

be so chilled, you sat on the barcel and

you did not move because you're having a

lovely time. So dopamine is there to go,

no, you actually have to go across the

bar and you have to say hello. And so

they work really, really well together.

And they also work together to make your

brain more plastic. So I have to ask you

then, if I'm a single person, yes, and

with what you've just told me about the

brain, I'm trying to increase the

probability that someone will be

attracted to me and form a relationship

to me. M what kind of behavior do I need

to be embodying to cuz I want to I want

to reduce the fear part of their brain

so that they're they're more comfortable

and I want that oxytocin and dopamine to

be firing. Yes, absolutely. So quite

often people say to me how can I hack my

first date? So the way you can hack your

first date is you can do an activity

which releases betaendorphine and

dopamine and oxytocin. The best one I

have found which I I appreciate is a

niche interest is some form of dancing

in couples. ballroom dancing, you know,

tango, whatever it is, because first of

all, you're touching. So, you get

released oxytocin and betaendorphine.

They're both released by touch. You're

moving around. As any gym bunny knows,

exercise produces betaendorphine.

Hopefully, you're not that great at

this. So, you're going to laugh a lot

because you're actually a little bit

rubbish. Okay? So, you're releasing lots

and lots of lovely oxytocin dopamine and

betendorphine doing that. Then

afterwards, you need to go and have a

curry. Okay? Because betaendorphine

evolved initially as your body's

painkiller. That's stellar role it has.

Over time it's been co-opted into our

social uh sphere. But we know you have

pain receptors in your gut. So if you

have a curry, your gut gets a little bit

irritated because it's a little bit

spicy. So don't have a coma. And it produces

produces

and and we know that that will also help

you help you feel more euphoric, help

you feel more relaxed and help that

person be more attracted to you because

they will also get a hit of it. So that

that's your ideal date. I appreciate

it's very niche and not everyone will

want to do that, but there are ways and

then I'm going to take her to the comedy

store. Yeah. And have a really good

belly laugh. A proper laugh produces

beta endorphin. Okay. Yeah. Had we

finished with the Well, so what you're

doing, your biological market value

comes out. As I say, you hit dopamine

oxytocin. Your amydala quietens. You

feel much more confident. You feel much

more chilled. Dopamine motivates you to

walk across the bar and off you go and

you strike up conversation. And that is

the way attraction works in all mammals.

It's completely unconscious. So you

don't know any of this is happening.

What's different in humans is very

quickly after that, particularly once

they've opened their mouth, it all

starts kicking off in the outer area of

the brain. So your neoortex. So the

major social area of the brain is here.

This is your prefrontal cortex. And your

prefrontal cortex is where all those

social uh abilities sit, you know. So um

trust uh reciprocity ability to maintain

ability to abstract about your

relationship or ability to daydream

about what it's going to be and that's

where all that sits. So we start seeing

firing off here and what's really what's

really important for human love is there

is a connection between this area of the

brain which is known as the striatum

which is unconscious and this area of

the brain the prefrontal cortex. So your

unconscious brain and your conscious

brain can work together in attraction

and also this area of the brain at the

back which is known as the mentalizing

empathizing area of the brain. So we

need to have empathy in relationships.

It's the basis of love. So understanding

someone's emotional state and being able

to respond to it appropriately and also

mentalizing. So mentalizing is mind

readading. What's their intention? What

are they going to do next? You need it

for conversation. You also need it to

spot a cheat

because you need to check someone's

intention. So the mentalizing area of

the brain is important. The sad bit and

I'll explain this in a minute is is

unfortunately that bit shuts down a

little bit which isn't very helpful but

we'll talk about that. So then as soon

as they open their mouth you start to

contemplate them consciously and what

you contemplate consciously in terms of

your attraction can actually override

the unconscious bit. So you might have

had this amazing feeling of, you know,

lust and chemistry as you walk across

the bar thinking, "Wow, this person's

amazing. I'm feeling astonishing." They

open their mouth and they say something

to you which is just, you know,

unconscionable or awful or they've got

no sense of humor or they're really

unkind or whatever it might be and

suddenly that bit will step in and go,

"Uh-uh, nope, this person is not for

me." And that can override the biology.

But that's why what we say and I always

say the brain is the sexiest organ in

the body because ultimately it's what

you express with your brain that is

going to really determine whether or not

this love is going to go anywhere. And

that's what you say. Because ultimately

as humans the thing that makes us the

most successful species on the planet is

our brain. Not your shoulder waist

ratio, not your waist hip ratio. It's

actually your brain. Because you want

your kid to have the most creative,

flexible, funny, intelligent,

emotionally intelligent brain they can

have. And that's what you're looking for

in a partner in the long term. So based

on what you know about attraction and

falling in love and all those things,

what is like the worst thing one could

say in terms of the themes, the types of

things someone could say that would just

completely put you off. So I think

probably the absolutely worst thing you

can say and this comes from a lot of

data saying what's the most important is

to say something unkind.

So we know regardless of everything

else, the one thing that people want in

a long-term relationship is somebody kind.

kind.

So something critical of somebody else

in the room, particularly something crit

I mean, you don't know what that

person's interests are, but something

critical about something that's very

important to them. Don't be alarmed. The

waiter, waitress. Yeah. Exactly. That's

why how people treat I mean, personally,

I find people who treat waiters

enraging, you know, badly enraging. Um,

that's why because it's a rare

representation of who you are at your

core or they express a value which goes

completely against a value that you have

because we know in terms of long

long-term compatibility, it's things to

do with personality, it's things to do

with long-term values or beliefs that

are the most important things. So, let's

say somebody said something horrendously

homophobic or something like that or

something racist, that's an immediate

right. No, this person is not for me.

What about Ix? Because I see seem to

have emerged as like a it's so it's got

a friend of mine who's she's never been

in a relationship. She's um she's just

37 years old, 38 years old. And I

remember one day she was like, "Steve,

what am I doing wrong?" And I'm not

listen I was never really a dater. So I

have no right to to tell someone what

they're doing right or wrong. But she

showed me her dating profile. And in a

dating profile she said to me, I said no

to this guy and I looked at this guy

he's like a he's like a stud.

He's beautifully good-looking. was

really really kind in the messages he

had sent. She goes, "But if you look in

the background of his photo, there's

boxes on top of his wardrobe." And she

was like, "So I said no." Right now,

from an evolutionary perspective, you

can go, "Okay, maybe he's living at his

mom's house. Maybe he's just moved in.

Maybe what? Whatever. Maybe he's not a

settled person." But really, there is

become a culture of women and men

excluding each other based on extremely

surface level things. Now I'm like, does

that is that the preffrontal cortex

doing its job or is that something else?

It is the prefrontal cortex doing its

job. I would say it's not doing its job

terribly well. The ick is a really

recent thing that was generated by

social media. And this idea of narrowing

in closer and closer and closer and what

people like to call red flags and you

don't get a lot of information from

online dating because you don't get a

lot of sensory information to help you

make a decision. So people become more

and more obsessive. What's in the image?

What's in the image? What can I get

about this person? And they start to

become obsessed with tiny tiny things.

What ultimately people find attractive

is very very complicated. It's there are

so many different things that feed into

attraction. Whether or not somebody has

boxes on top of their wardrobe is very

unlikely to be even vaguely important in

terms of compatibility. I don't think

they should be called dating apps. I

think they should be called introduction

apps. And that's actually what the great

Helen Fcher said. She said they're

introduction apps. They broaden your

pool. They make more people available to

you. That's it. You're not having a date

on that app. You're not learning about

that person on that app. You're

literally seeing them for the first

time. And as soon as you can get in the

room with them and you can let your

brain do what it's really good at, half

a million years of evolution, that's

what you should do because they handicap

your brain. They give you very little

information to go into that algorithm.

You said something really interesting

there which kind of dubtales into what I

was saying about my friend who's never

dated but is struggling in dating. I

know a growing number of people that are

going on like a hundred dates a year and

having no luck. And just like

mathematically I go surely there must

have been someone suitable in that pool

of 100 people a year that you've met.

Yeah. What is going on here? It's two

things I think. First of all, as I've

said, it's the low cost of dating apps.

So in the old days when I was dating,

going on a date was a real investment of

time and energy. So you would probably

meet someone at work, you'd meet someone

at a bar, you'd meet someone through a

friend, which was a real blind date. And

you'd, you know, spend your time

thinking, what am I going to wear? and

I've got to go somewhere with this

person and spend some time with this

person, probably some financial

investment as well, get myself all

ready, spend an evening with them. And

that was how you were going to meet

somebody. So, you invested time and you

weren't going to do that unless you were

serious, to be honest. Because

otherwise, I'll stay at home. I'll do

something else. I'll go to the pub with

my friends. Whereas now, because we can

do it, we can literally go on a dating

app anywhere on the tube, while we're

cooking dinner, while we're watching

Netflix, anytime we want. It's low cost,

low investment. I read a study that

showed it was in a different context,

but it essentially showed that the

amount you invest in something

correlates to the amount that you

appreciate the thing. Absolutely. They

did this study where they let people

into a boring um forum without having to

pass any entry test and then they asked

them how much they appreciated the

boring forum and people said it's it's

uh it's boring. Yes. And then they got

another group of people, they made them

go through this sort of rigorous test to

get into this boring forum and then they

asked them how much do you appreciate

the forum. They said it's great. Yeah.

I'm obviously paraphrasing there, but it

just showed this link between the amount

you invest in a process is the more you

you appreciate it. And I think back to

being I don't know 14 years old going on

my first date and the the whole process

of getting ready to go to the cinema and

thinking about my outfit for 3 days and

then going there and being nervous and I

didn't have much money so this was like

a big thing and then how much you know I

almost felt like I fell in love with the

person irrespective just because of the

effort I'd put in I feel like I fell in

love with them. So So yeah. So that's so

so it's partly the low cost thing. It's

partly because all those people that

if you were doing it in person, your

brain would filter out. Let's say there

were 100 people in the room, your brain

would quite quickly filter out most of

them as no no no no no no maybe one or

two might because you can't filter in

that way on an app. You kind of take the

punt on all these dates because you're

like otherwise how else am I going to

actually meet this person? you can't

just have a casual chat by the coffee

machine at work or you know meet them

through some friends in the pub where

you would do that assessment without

really making that much effort whereas

because on a dating app the only way you

can meet that person is to actually go

on a date with them and do all that you

will end up going on a hundred to do

that filtering process. So it's partly

that as well and the last thing is the

paradox of choice. Yeah. So, we are

really, really bad at making choices

when there's a lot of options. And the

paradox of choice is very powerful in

relation to dating apps because

literally, particularly if you're

good-looking and you get a lot of

matches, there's like a smorggas board

of people out there that you can carry

on flipping or you can make a choice.

And it's our brains are not set up for

that. You know, a 100 years ago when we

were trying to find a partner, you would

maybe have the people in your village

who you grew up with to choose from. If

you had a horse, you could maybe have

the people in the next village or even a

town. Wow. And that was who you chose

from and it was a very small pool. Now

you can go anywhere in the world, turn

on your dating app and possibly have,

you know, hundreds of people to meet and

your brain can't do that. I mean, we can

all think about it as well in the

context of restaurants. If you go to

Thailand, Yeah. they give you like a a

catalog. Yes. The menu is a catalog.

They're like, "We will make anything."

Yeah. And you sit there for like Yeah.

45 minutes thinking, "Do I want fish,

chicken, eggs?" But then you go to like

a London fancy restaurant and there's

like we do this. This is it. So that's

why you end up with people who Yes. go

on 100 dates and don't actually

end up with anybody because they haven't

had that opportunity to filter. Monogamy

and polyamory. Yes. So can you define

both of those words? And um the thing

that I found really striking is I think

I heard you say that satisfaction in

either dynamic there polyamory or

monogamy is roughly the same because I

thought people in monogous relationships

were supposed to be way more happy than

people that are in polyamorous

relationships. No, not at all. So

monogamy is a relationship state where

there are two people who are

we okay we have to find two sorts of

monogamy. There's sexual monogamy that

is you are exclusive to that other

person sexually. You have sex with

nobody else and there is social monogamy

and that is you live with that person

exclusively. So within the UK, most

people, let's say if they have children,

are socially monogous. They live in a

household with their children with two

people in it. Whereas sexual monogamy,

you can be socially monogous and not

sexually monogous. So they're two

different things. But monogamy, if we

talk about it in sort of lay terms, is

two people who are exclusive to each

other in terms of love, in terms of sex,

and in terms of possibly living

together. Monogamy itself is a social

construct mostly. We are not a monogous

species. There are in fact very few

monogous species in the world. Maybe I

think I read a book the other day. It

says something like 0.002%

of the animals on this planet are

monogous because what you will see in

the wild and what you see mostly with

humans is social monogamy. They live

together but we know that the infidelity

rate is sits generally at around 50%. So

50% of those households are not sexually

monogous. Um and in fact from an

evolutionary point of view being

sexually monogous is a really quite bad

idea because um you are limiting

yourself to a very narrow gene pool and

that's why there are very few creatures

in the world that are truly sexually

monogous. I when I was doing my masters

my professor studied gibbons. Gibbons at

the time were known to be the monogous

ape and he studied he did a really

longitudinal study and he was the first

to realize that no they weren't. They

were all sneaking off and doing it

behind the rock with somebody else but

they were living together. But the

female was going to find some better

jeans somewhere else. This guy,

brilliant parent, not great jeans. I'm

going to go behind a rock and mate with

this really good-looking gibbon over

here because I'm going to get some good

jeans and then he's going to raise the

kid. And the and the guy is like, well,

you know, I'm obviously going to have

offspring here, but actually, you know,

mating with another female is not

particularly costly to me. So, I'll just

go and do that over there and let's hope

she can raise them on her own or maybe

her partner will raise them for me. So,

there are very few. So we have monogamy

in in mainly in the west um because it's

a socially prescribed

form of organization and it was imposed

because it is a form of control. It

mainly sits in terms of rules

particularly in religion but also there

were many legal rules. For example in in

Britain you can't be you can't have two

marriages. You can't be a bigamist. And

it's about making everybody control.

Because if we if we all just gave in

constantly to precisely what our drives

were saying, there'd be kind of chaos.

And those in power wouldn't be able to

predict what anybody is going to do

because actually I'm just going to go I

feel, you know, sexually attracted to

whoever that is over there. I'm going to

go marry with them, but I'm going to

come back and live here, but then I've

got a kid over there and it's it's all

really really confusing. So over time

when civilization first arose the more

complex we got and as we started to live

together in cities those in control were

like okay I really needed to be able to

predict what these lesser beings are

going to do so I'm going to impose

monogamy you can only live with one

person and basically have sex with one

person nobody actually ever only had sex

with one person but we're going to look

like we do and those are the rules and

that's why we have legitim legitimacy

rules about children and inheritance and

all that kind of thing because it

maintains control. So monogamy is yeah

simply a social construct. It's not

something that we've biologically

evolved to do. And we know that part you

know there are many countries in the

world where monogamy isn't what is

prescribed. How are those cultures

getting on the ones that aren't

monogous? Fine. What what cultures are

those? So you tend to get so so for

example in certain religions. So in

certain forms of Islam for example men

can have many wives. There are certain

um tribes which exist within sort of

South America and in certain areas of

Africa where you can have many wives.

For example, there are some um groups in

Nepal in the Himalayas where we have

what's known as polyandry. So one woman

has many husbands. Um usually the reason

why these different um groupings evolved

like monogamy is it's something to do

with economics generally. So for example

in Nepal in these areas because they

still have um male inheritance of land.

If let's say we've got a family farm and

there's five brothers if all of those

five brothers split the inheritance then

that farm would become uneconomic. You

wouldn't be able to farm it and make

money. So over time what's involved is

one woman will marry all the brothers so

that when they inherit the farm they

will all get it will carry on passing

down essentially. So if it goes against

our evolutionary design to be in

monogous relationships, doesn't that

mean that there's a lot of people who are

are

struggling against their Yeah,

absolutely. And that's why we have a a

reasonably high rate of people who have

extrammarital affairs. It's also why

people who are polyamorous or indeed

have open relationships say actually

it's the more truthful way of being

human because all they're doing is

following their drives and they actually

believe that it's more moral because if

you put forward a monogous front and you

have an affair, you are lying to people.

You are keeping a secret from people you

profess to love. Whereas if you're

polyamorous or you're in an open

relationship, you're actually openly

saying this is my drive. This is the

reality and I'm being truthful with

everybody about it. you can enter a

relationship with me or not on the basis

of truth. And that's what a lot of

polyamorous people particularly will

argue is that they're really

representing what is for most people an

ancestral state. Polyory is difficult

because unlike open relationships, open

relationships such as such as swinging

or or being open, we call them

consensual non- monogamy. That's just

based on sex. So you're not spreading

your love relationship, that emotional

investment, that emotional intimacy

amongst more than one person. Polyamory

is uh being open and having several

sexual partners and also having several

emotionally intimate relationships at

the same time. And I think people

struggle more with that because of the

issues of of jealousy um and the fact

that that goes quite strongly against

even our social ideas about monogamy

where we all sort of live in pairs. I've

got a friend of mine that's uh secretly

in an open polyamorous relationship

basically where there's two couples and

they are together. Yeah. So there's four

of them basically. But they they don't

talk about it publicly because of the

judgment. Yeah. And I think maybe part

of the issue is that judgment that

that's for the polyamorous people I I've

interviewed particularly for my book

that was the major thing is that they

were very happy in the relationship. The

relationships were going really really

well. But what was difficult was being

open about it. Particularly with for

example I'm talking to one woman who was

like like older members of the family.

So she was going to a family wedding.

She was and when she went to these

occasions with this family, she could

only ever take one of her partners. It

always had to be the same partner

because they had no idea the other

partner existed because that would be

very difficult for them to take. Also,

we know from studies that have been done

looking at people's attitudes to

polyamorous people. It they are seen as

immoral. They are seen as um unloving.

They're seen as cold because they have

this ability to love lots of many. They

can't truly love anybody because they're

splitting their heart between all these

different people. Polyamorous people

look at it the other way. As I've said,

they actually think it's very moral

because they're being truthful.

Polyamorous relationships tend to be

based on very open communication. That's

one of the rules is that is everybody

still happy? Is everybody still happy

with where the boundaries are? Has

anybody upset anybody else? So, it's

it's very very open. And they also

believe that and in some ways the

support from this, you know, we are able

to to love many friends at once. We're

able to love many children at once. They

say actually they don't split their

their heart. It's not a zero- sum game

that you get 50% and you get 50%.

Actually, that each time they take

somebody into their lives, their heart

just gets bigger. Do you think we're all

somewhat pretending to be monogamous?

I think some people are

happier with monogamy. We know that

partly from a genetic point of view. Um,

so there are some people, no, I don't

think struggle with it, but I do think a

reasonably significant number of people

probably do. Who do you think struggles

with it more, men or women? It really

depends. Do you know something that one

of the major misnomers in love research

is that there is much difference that

there's this major difference between

men and women. There really isn't. There

really isn't. It's more about who you

are at your core. More about attachment

style, personality, your life

experience, your genetics, all these

sorts of things are much more of a

factor in whether or not you will be

comfortable with monogamy or any of

those aspects than whether or not you're

male or female. And again, you said that

there's not not a difference between

well-being and satisfaction levels

versus monogous and polyamorous

relationships. No, absolutely not. How

do we know this? Because we've done

studies on it. We've we've asked we've

done we use the same satisfaction scales

about, you know, um how satisfied are

you in your relationship with various

aspects of that relationship? And they

come out as being absolutely no

different. For what it's worth, babe,

I'm I'm happy with our relationship. I'm

more than happy being monogamous. I I

find it to be a much much easier life.

Well, the only thing polyamorous people

say is you have to have a cracking

Google calendar. Yeah. The time. Yeah.

Yeah. Let's talk about the first

thousand days. So, you really believe

that the first thousand days of a

child's life are the most critical. Yes.

And linked to this is the role of both

the mother and the father. It's long

been assumed that the father is surplus

to requirements that they're not really

that important. as long as they're, you

know, in the stereotypical context. As

long as they're providing for the

family, they don't really need to be around.

around.

Is that true? And what do we need to

know about how formative those first

thousand days are for a child? Okay,

first of all, no, it's not true. Um, h

it's absolutely fundamental, I think,

for a child to get some input from a

father. I'm going to define father.

In the west, we're a bit obsessed with

the term biological father. And we

always describe that as the real father.

Even if he's not around, even if that

child has been brought up by a

stepfather, an adoptive father, what we

call a social father, which is a

grandfather, an uncle, a best friend, an

older brother. When I say father, people

assume I mean biological father. I

don't. I mean the man or men who have

stepped in and done the job. That is the

father. So I want to make that very

clear. essful. We know that young people

who grow up without that input, the

risks of having negative outcomes uh is

much higher without having a male role

model or some male role models in your

life. We know that they are much more

likely to display antisocial behavior.

They are much more likely to turn to

crime. They are much more likely to have

addiction issues. They are much more

likely to have mental health issues. and

their outcomes in terms of relationships

going through their life with in other

aspects of their lives are much more

negative and there is a reason for that. So

men have a very specific role in child

development and I wasn't expecting to

find this when I first started but I've

looked at fathering around the world in

many many different cultures and how men

arrive at that role is very different.

Um the the fathering role is much more

diverse than the mothering role. It's

partly because the mother's role is very

tight by biology, by pregnancy, child

birth, etc. Whereas men, we call it a

facultative role. And what that means is

it's much more flexible. It's much more

open to responding to changes in the

environment and adapting to them to help

the family survive. And we see that all

the way around the world. So dads do it

lots of different ways. It really

depends in your environment what the

major risk is. So in our environment,

you know, we don't really have survival

risks in our environment, not to the

extent that they do in some cultures. So

as a dad in in societies where survival

day-to-day survival is a is a problem

whether it's a war zone or whether there

are major major disease issues then a

dad's role there is to keep that kid

alive. If we look at other environments

where survival is reasonably secure but

economic survival is very on edge then

in those environments we tend to see

fathers again not particularly hands-on

in terms of caretaking or nurturing.

they are the um person in that kid's

life who's going to teach them the

skills they need to go forward and be

economically successful. So if you live

in a pastoral uh environment then they

will be taken into the fields and they

will be taught how to do that role and

then they will be taken to the markets

and they will be taught how to negotiate

and build the social networks they need.

And then in our environment where

economics is reasonably secure

comparatively survival is reasonably

secure comparatively then we are social

survival is important in our world. It

really is who you know. But what I found

regardless of how you were doing it was

all fathers have one major major role

and and it's a bit of a technical term

and I'll explain what it is. They

scaffold the child's entry into the

world beyond the family. And what that

means is they are the parent when it

comes to developing the skills, the

neural connections, the biology, the

physiology that enables you to leave

your family and go out into the world

and be successful, to thrive and

survive. And it starts when a baby is

born. So the attachments that a dad and

a mom build to that baby are just as

powerful as each other but they are

different. So a mom's attachment is

based upon nurture. And uh what we tend

to say with a mom and child attachment

is it's quite exclusive. So if you

imagine um a mother her major role with

that child is to nurture and protect.

And so when she's with that child she

will hold that child to her. It's very

inwardlooking. With dads, they do

nurture. Absolutely. They nurture. They

do all that kind of thing. But they use

that nurturing to build confidence in

that child as a secure base, which is

what attachment's about. And what they

actually do is they turn the child to

the world and they go, "Okay, you're

safe with me. I am always here. But I'm

going to give you a push and you're

going to go out into the world and

you're going to see what the world is

like. And I'm going to be the person who

gives you the resilience and gives you

the social skills and gives you what you

need to be able to do that. And you can

always come back to me when it goes

wrong." So what we say with a with a

father's attachment is it's based on

nurture and challenge. Mom is very

nurturing. Dad is stimulation. I'm going

to stimulate you and you're going to go

and do something amazing. And and that

is why you need fathers because those

outcomes we have for kids who don't have

an input from a father figure. The

reason why they struggle with antisocial

behavior is it's because dads are the

ones that underpin social behavior.

Pro-social behavior like helping,

sharing, caring, emotional regulation

and inhibition. You need to learn to

regulate your emotions and inhibit them

appropriately to get on in this world.

You can't go into school and you cannot

go into the workplace screaming your

head off when you get angry. That's not

how it works. We know that fathers when

it comes to education, both moms and

dads have a pretty equal input in terms

of academic success. But fathers have a

greater role in instilling appropriate

learning behavior, being in the

classroom, taking in what's going on,

cooperating with other people,

cooperating with the teacher, not

disturbing everybody else, that kind of

thing. They are the ones that underpin

that. How do they do that? Is it

chemically or is it It's several things.

It's partly chemical. So, we know that

ch one of the earliest behaviors you

will see a father do with a child from

about six months on is a thing called

rough and tumble play. Rough and tumble

play. Okay? And men seem to be drawn to

it. Not all men do it, and we'll talk

about the people who don't find it

comfortable, but most men when we just

tell them to go and do something with

their kid, they're not going to do some

coloring. They're going to take the kid

outside. They're going to throw it in

the air. They're going to chase it

around the garden. They're going to

airplane it over their head. They're

going to come in. They're going to

bounce on the sofa. They're going to do

a little wrestling. There's lots of

shrieking. There's lots of energy. And

we see pretty much all western fathers

do that. And the reason for it is

twofold. First of all, it's a very quick

way of bonding with your child. Dads

have to bond through interaction. They

don't have the head start of child's

birth, which is a whole tsunami of

bonding hormones. So, they do it through

interaction. And rough and double play

is a really timeefficient way to do it.

You you get a massive tidal weight of

bonding hormones because it's because

it's so physical. So you get betrayphin

because uh there's lots of touch,

there's lots of giggling. So all of

these things release dopamine, betray,

oxytocin. They bond you tightly to the

child you're playing with and the child

gets them as well. But also it's

starting to underpin some teaching about

social skills because the basis of all

social um behavior is reciprocity is

give and take. And when we play with

someone, it only remains fun if that

reciprocity is reasonably balanced. You

learn empathy because you've got to work

out, is this stuff fun for the other

person or are they no longer enjoying

this? Have I gone too far? You learn to

deal with challenge. Rough and tumble

play can be pretty extreme. It can be a

little bit painful. It can be a little

bit risky. And so you're saying to the

kid, assess the risk. Assess the risk.

Here's the challenge. Can you deal with

the challenge? And all of that underpins

that child's neural development first of

all, but also you're showing by example

social skills. I'm saying reciprocity.

But what's really interesting, and I

love this piece of research, and this

came out from a group in Israel headed

by Ruth Feldman, who is a pioneer of

neuroscience in terms of children and

their parents. she um she found that

dads and children have co-eolved to

prefer to play with each other.

Okay. So, when you're a parent, you will

get a peak in oxytocin from certain

behaviors you do with your child. You'll

always get a bit of oxytocin because

anything you do with them is probably

very nice apart from maybe the tantrums.

But if you're a dad, that peak in

oxytocin comes from playing with your

kid. And then when we look at kids when

they the peak in um oxytocin release

they get when they're playing with their

dads again isn't when daddy gives me a

cuddle which is nice but you know I

don't get a big release it's when I play

with daddy. So is that different to

women? Yes. So women get their peak in

activate of oxytocin released from

nurturing their children particularly

from hugging them. And kids get their

peak in oxytocin when they interact with

mom from mom's cuddles not from playing

with mom. So naturally kids kind of

gravitate towards dads when they want to

have fun. And dad, that's the kind of

thing he will choose to do with his

child. Something that's um physical,

something that's stimulatory. And that's

what's really interesting. And that's in

a way why dad's kind of got the moniker

of, oh, you're the fun parent. You do

all the fun stuff. But actually, play is

fundamental to a child's development.

Absolutely fundamental to their social

development and also building that

really critical bond with dad. If I was

to have a baby now, how would my body,

my my brain, my my body, how would it

change? Okay, it would change in two

ways. There's the biological changes you

would undergo. So this is something that

we didn't know about 20 years ago and I

and other colleagues around the world

have have looked into this and the

reason why we looked into it is because

as I said very rare to have human

fathering really rare 5% of mammals and

the way evolution works is it generally

doesn't cause a whole new behavior to

evolve without giving you some sort of

head start in being able to do it. And

so over time, in the last half a million

years, as fatherhood evolved, men's

brains change, their psychology changes,

their hormones change when they become

fathers to to give you that that prep to

be a parent. Um, so first of all, we see

hormonal changes. The the most studied

and I think probably the most

significant is the drop in testosterone

that occurs when you become a father. So

you will have already experienced a drop

in testosterone because you're in a

long-term relationship. No, no, I

haven't. Yes, you have.

So, when a man enters a long-term

relationship for a first for the first

time, he will experience a drop in

testosterone because testosterone is a

really great chemical uh if you're

dating because it makes you more

competitive and it makes you more

attractive if you if you're in a

heterosexual relationship. So, it makes

you more attractive. But when you start,

you know, living with someone or being

in a long-term relationship, we kind of

need you to shift your focus from the

horizon and looking for another date.

and we need you to focus on that that

one person because from an evolutionary

point of view that person is going to be

the person you have kids with and we'd

quite like you to stick around and look

after those kids. So that happens when

you become a father for the first time

it drops again and it can be up to 30%.

So you lose a third of your testosterone

and the reason for that again is we need

you to focus in on the family. We we

can't have you looking to the horizon

for another mate. We need to focus

because we know that children need input

from just more than just mom to survive.

This sounds all very monogous. I'll talk

about it in a minute. Okay. So, this is

so so you focus in on that child.

Testosterone is also um when it's very

high, it blocks the bonding hormones.

So, dopamine and oxytocin in particular

have less of an effect. So, the

testosterone drops also to enable you to

start bonding with that child because

you are you are behind in terms of

bonding with that child because mom's

gone through pregnancy in in most cases

and given birth. So, she's had a head

start. She's had a load of oxytocin,

dopamine, and beta endorphin during the

birth process. You haven't. So, so we

need to like release those hormones as

soon as we can. One of the ways we do

that is testosterone drops. So, oxytocin

and dopamine are more effective, which

explains why some fathers say that they

don't feel bonded to their child in the

early stages or before. Yeah, I'll

explain why that is as well in a minute.

So, that's oxytocin, dopamine. We also

know just generally from studies whether

men are fathers or not, men with lower

testosterone tend to be more motivated

to care for children. So even if you're

not a father, if we present you with a

crying baby, men with very high

testosterone, the reaction to that is

mainly aversive, like okay, just take it

away from me. And also they get quite

frustrated. They find it quite quite

difficult to deal with as a noise. Men

with low testosterone tend to be more

motivated to pick the baby up, try and

soo the baby and deal with it. And and

whilst it's a difficult noise to hear,

they tend not to experience negative

emotions in relation to it. That drop in

testosterone is really really important.

Over evolutionary time

we think that people were probably

socially monogous for a period of time

which matched the period of time they

needed to ensure that our child's going

to survive. So whilst in our you know in

our um culture it's like no you will

marry till you die, you will be monogous

till you die. In evolutionary history

that probably wasn't the case. Fathers

might have stuck around for probably at

least until uh childhood which is

between about 5 and 10. They might have

stayed along into into the teenage years

depending upon how difficult the

environment was. And also this doesn't

mean they weren't having sex somewhere

else. So this is social monogamy. We

also see changes in oxytocin rises. Uh

if you live with your pregnant partner,

it will start to rise in pregnancy as

well your partners. Um, and that's there

to make sure first of all that your bond

to your partner tightens because you're

about to introduce somebody new into

your relationship and it's not going to

be easy. So, we need that to be tight,

but it's also to start preparing you for

after birth. We know that vasop prein

also rises. Vasopressin is a sort of

form of oxytocin, but in non-human

mammals, it's associated with defense of

the nest. And we think in in male

humans, it's to do with protection and

motivation to protect that child. And

finally, we see an increase in a in a

parenting hormone known as prolactin.

And prolactin is only seen in males in

species that have investing fathers. And

prolactin again is a parenting hormone

that motivates you to care. So you go

through this massive change in hormones.

A lot of men say they don't notice the

drop in testosterone in terms of things

like strength. So I get a contact by a

lot of men saying, "But I I love weight

training. Is this going to ruin my No,

it's not. It doesn't do anything like

that. Think of the number of Olympic

athletes who have kids. You're fine."

Um, what it does do is it it it

increases your emotional vulnerability.

So quite often with fathers, you will

hear they're more empathetic after birth

and also they find it harder to deal

with emotionally difficult things

particularly like on the news. Suddenly

things on the news will make them cry

when they never cried before. Will they

ever get their testosterone levels back?

Only if you don't have contact with your child.

child.

So if you don't have contact with your

child, you don't have to co-reside with

your child. These studies have been done

across cultures including cultures where

co-resident doesn't occur. Um, as long

as you are in contact with your child,

no, they won't because you you are still

maintained in looking after that child.

If you lose contact with your child,

yes, they will go back up because the

evolutionary drive is to then reproduce

again. So, if I have a kid and then I

stick around and raise the kid,

assuming I stick around, my testosterone

levels will never get back to the level

it was before I had the kid. No, never.

I mean that's slightly I mean I you know

I'll love my future kid I'm sure I will

say to dads because they do worry about

and I understand why they worry about it

because they believe very much that

testosterone is the male hormone. It is

and it isn't you know women have

testosterone and it's it's one of the

sex hormones. It's not it really isn't

associated with things like stress. You

might find things like your

if you have a tendency to aggression,

you might find that drops a little bit

and as I say, you become more empathetic

and you become more emotionally

vulnerable, but it's really it's not

going to impact a huge amount

physiologically in you. So really don't

worry about it. And also you get the

most amazing rewarding bond with your

kid in return. So you drop the

testosterone, but you get this

astonishing bond. So it swings and

roundabouts. You said earlier that if

the father's not around, there's

implications for teenage mental health.

Yes. So because fathers underpin

resilience through starting with rough

and tumble play but carrying on through

that child's life and doing stimulatory

activities with that kid. They're the

ones that underpin mental resilience.

And obviously mental resilience is

particularly key for mental health also

because they underpin scaffolding the

child's ability to operate in the social

world. A lot of the disorders we see in

teenage um young people are associated

with social situations. So social

anxiety, eating disorders, self harm,

depression, loneliness, they tend to all

exist within the social sphere. And

because of that, that's why it's

actually the relationship you have with

your dad, particularly the attachment

relationship you have. So if it's a nice

secure attachment relationship, you are

much less likely to suffer from those

disorders and also particularly you know

how much time your dad spends with you

and inputs into you is important. So

kids are really interesting. They

measure their importance to their

parents in different ways. If you say to

them, "How do you know you're important

to your mom?" They'll say, "Well, my mom

does stuff for me. She makes sure I've

got my favorite cereal. She makes sure

that I get picked up from school and I

can have my playdates and she, you know,

makes sure my sports kit is washed." And

I mean, it's all terribly gender

specific. I do apologize, but this is

this is the data. If you say to the kid,

"How do you know you're important to

your dad? He spends time with me." And

we think it's probably cultural because

in our culture, dads are still more

likely to be out at work. So, the

precious thing you you have as a man is

your time. And if I give my time to you

as a child, particularly if I do

something you're interested in and I

accept you as an individual and say,

"Yeah, let's be enthusiastic about what

you want to do, then that is what underpins how you feel, how that how

underpins how you feel, how that how important that child feels, and that

important that child feels, and that underpins their self-esteem." Because I

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didn't realize is that being a founder with no money meant that I also had to

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That's shopify.com/bartlet. We talked at the top of this

We talked at the top of this conversation about how gender roles have

conversation about how gender roles have shifted and how more women are college

shifted and how more women are college educated and more women are in work and

educated and more women are in work and they're climbing the economic ladder.

they're climbing the economic ladder. This also means that mothers are more

This also means that mothers are more likely to be around less in such a world

likely to be around less in such a world especially when we consider the way that

especially when we consider the way that the offices have been designed and the

the offices have been designed and the working week has been designed. Have you

working week has been designed. Have you thought much about the implications of

thought much about the implications of an absent mother? Because we talked a

an absent mother? Because we talked a lot about the absent father. Yeah. But

lot about the absent father. Yeah. But an absent mother or a mother who puts

an absent mother or a mother who puts their child into into daycare or is

their child into into daycare or is working five five days a week. I must

working five five days a week. I must admit I haven't because I I don't study

admit I haven't because I I don't study mothers. Mothers is a massive amount of

mothers. Mothers is a massive amount of work done on uh and I'm kind of filling

work done on uh and I'm kind of filling the gaps in terms of fathers to be

the gaps in terms of fathers to be absolutely honest. The roles of a mom

absolutely honest. The roles of a mom and a dad in a heterosexual relationship

and a dad in a heterosexual relationship have evolved to kind of complement each

have evolved to kind of complement each other. So they don't mirror each other.

other. So they don't mirror each other. They don't do the same thing. Um they

They don't do the same thing. Um they complement each other. So what happens

complement each other. So what happens when we take one of those away for that

when we take one of those away for that child? There are two things to say to

child? There are two things to say to that. First of all, in most children's

that. First of all, in most children's lives, we talk about single parent

lives, we talk about single parent families and what we're talking about is

families and what we're talking about is a single parent raising that child. But

a single parent raising that child. But actually, if we look outside that that

actually, if we look outside that that particular diad, that particular couple,

particular diad, that particular couple, and we look at who else is inputting

and we look at who else is inputting into that child's life. So quite often,

into that child's life. So quite often, I study it as obviously in relation to

I study it as obviously in relation to absent fathers, what we tend to find is

absent fathers, what we tend to find is that child has other people in their

that child has other people in their life who are men who input, even if the

life who are men who input, even if the mom hasn't recognized it. One of the

mom hasn't recognized it. One of the most powerful studies I read wasn't

most powerful studies I read wasn't saying to a mom, "Where are the father

saying to a mom, "Where are the father figures in your child's life?" It was

figures in your child's life?" It was saying to the kid, "Who are the

saying to the kid, "Who are the important men in your life?" And the kid

important men in your life?" And the kid would go, "Oh, my football coach or my

would go, "Oh, my football coach or my math teacher or my mate John's dad or

math teacher or my mate John's dad or they often recognize father figures.

they often recognize father figures. They don't call them that, but they

They don't call them that, but they recognize men in their lives who they

recognize men in their lives who they look up to, who support them, who the

look up to, who support them, who the parents or the mom doesn't even think

parents or the mom doesn't even think about. So that's the first thing to say.

about. So that's the first thing to say. Secondly, we know with gay fathers where

Secondly, we know with gay fathers where a mom isn't in a caretaking role, the

a mom isn't in a caretaking role, the brain adapts.

brain adapts. Okay. So, what happens if we put um a

Okay. So, what happens if we put um a heterosexual couple in a scanner? Yeah.

heterosexual couple in a scanner? Yeah. And we say, "Look, look at look at this

And we say, "Look, look at look at this video of your child." We see different

video of your child." We see different peaks in activation in the brain. So, in

peaks in activation in the brain. So, in mom, we see a peak in activation at the

mom, we see a peak in activation at the core of the brain here. Okay? Very

core of the brain here. Okay? Very ancient. It's partly there because

ancient. It's partly there because mothering is as old as time. So, it's in

mothering is as old as time. So, it's in the ancient unconscious part of the

the ancient unconscious part of the brain. This is where nurture is,

brain. This is where nurture is, attachment, risk detection, all those

attachment, risk detection, all those things you need to be able to do.

things you need to be able to do. Uh, and then we get that peak there.

Uh, and then we get that peak there. However, if we look at dad's activation,

However, if we look at dad's activation, he does have some activation here.

he does have some activation here. Obviously, he does. He's very capable of

Obviously, he does. He's very capable of nurturing and protecting. But actually,

nurturing and protecting. But actually, the peak in activation is in the

the peak in activation is in the neoortex. This is this bit of the brain.

neoortex. This is this bit of the brain. This is the conscious brain. It's much

This is the conscious brain. It's much younger. Um, and that shows you that

younger. Um, and that shows you that fathering is younger. It's about half a

fathering is younger. It's about half a million years old. And we see activation

million years old. And we see activation here in the social part of the brain.

here in the social part of the brain. Okay. So this is the prefrontal cortex

Okay. So this is the prefrontal cortex which is here and the orbital frontal

which is here and the orbital frontal cortex which is kind of above your eyes

cortex which is kind of above your eyes and that's where all your social skills

and that's where all your social skills sit your ability to do everything

sit your ability to do everything socially. And then at the back of the

socially. And then at the back of the brain we have two areas at the back of

brain we have two areas at the back of the brain which are linked to empathy

the brain which are linked to empathy which is the basis of relationships and

which is the basis of relationships and mentalizing. So that's that ability to

mentalizing. So that's that ability to know someone's intention. You need it

know someone's intention. You need it just to have a conversation but you also

just to have a conversation but you also need it uh to spot somebody who's going

need it uh to spot somebody who's going to maybe do you bad in some way, cheat,

to maybe do you bad in some way, cheat, lie, whatever those sorts of things.

lie, whatever those sorts of things. Again important in the social world and

Again important in the social world and his peing activations are there. Again,

his peing activations are there. Again, mom does have some peaks in activ some

mom does have some peaks in activ some activation here, but it's not as

activation here, but it's not as intense. And that underpins those two

intense. And that underpins those two different roles. So, dad's attachment is

different roles. So, dad's attachment is neo. Mom's attachment is very ancient

neo. Mom's attachment is very ancient and nurturing. If you have a gay primary

and nurturing. If you have a gay primary caretaking father without a mother

caretaking father without a mother involved, what you see is you see both

involved, what you see is you see both bits light up at the same intensity. So,

bits light up at the same intensity. So, he gets the dad activation obviously

he gets the dad activation obviously being a man, but he also gets the mom's

being a man, but he also gets the mom's activation. And what's really absolutely

activation. And what's really absolutely fascinating is if we look at that brain,

fascinating is if we look at that brain, there is a new a brand new neural

there is a new a brand new neural connection between

connection between this bit of the brain here and this bit

this bit of the brain here and this bit of the brain here. So they can

of the brain here. So they can communicate. So is the is a woman not

communicate. So is the is a woman not playing a unique role at all in raising?

playing a unique role at all in raising? Well, arguably neither is a man because

Well, arguably neither is a man because if we look in if we were to look in

if we look in if we were to look in probably uh a gay woman's brain, we'd

probably uh a gay woman's brain, we'd see the same thing. And it's not saying

see the same thing. And it's not saying that they're not paying unique roles in

that they're not paying unique roles in a heterosexual relationship. They

a heterosexual relationship. They absolutely do. But what it's showing

absolutely do. But what it's showing you, human children are incredibly

you, human children are incredibly difficult to raise. They are pretty

difficult to raise. They are pretty much, apart from maybe dolphins and and

much, apart from maybe dolphins and and a bit of an ape, um the most intense kid

a bit of an ape, um the most intense kid to raise because they're because they're

to raise because they're because they're born so helpless. Okay? And the only way

born so helpless. Okay? And the only way a human baby can survive is if it gets

a human baby can survive is if it gets enough input. So the human brain, the

enough input. So the human brain, the human parenting brain is astonishingly

human parenting brain is astonishingly plastic and it will adapt to make sure

plastic and it will adapt to make sure that that child gets what it needs. And

that that child gets what it needs. And so where we've got one of the adults

so where we've got one of the adults missing, mom or dad, it will adapt to

missing, mom or dad, it will adapt to say, okay, the remaining adult or

say, okay, the remaining adult or whether even if there's two dads or two

whether even if there's two dads or two moms, that primary caretaking one, their

moms, that primary caretaking one, their brain will alter to make sure that kid

brain will alter to make sure that kid start gets what it needs. It kind of

start gets what it needs. It kind of goes to the top of what we were saying

goes to the top of what we were saying about do you need dads then? Because if

about do you need dads then? Because if you know, we talked about the role that

you know, we talked about the role that dads play in play, but also I've read

dads play in play, but also I've read your research around the impact that a

your research around the impact that a father has on um a kid's ability to

father has on um a kid's ability to speak. Yes.

speak. Yes. is better in children who had a father

is better in children who had a father present. But if you could just have two

present. But if you could just have two women doing it, doesn't that mean that

women doing it, doesn't that mean that we don't necessarily need the father?

we don't necessarily need the father? It's not that you don't necessarily need

It's not that you don't necessarily need the father. I mean, the same argument

the father. I mean, the same argument say you don't necessarily need a mother

say you don't necessarily need a mother in a gay parenting relationship with the

in a gay parenting relationship with the fathers. What it's saying is

fathers. What it's saying is in a heterosexual relationship we get

in a heterosexual relationship we get this complimentarity. We can't get that

this complimentarity. We can't get that in a gay relationship. So what we've got

in a gay relationship. So what we've got instead is this slice to adaptation.

instead is this slice to adaptation. Unfortunately, the studies haven't been

Unfortunately, the studies haven't been done sufficiently on gay parenting,

done sufficiently on gay parenting, which is which is a massive omission.

which is which is a massive omission. I'm afraid science always starts with

I'm afraid science always starts with heterosexual. Yeah. Um and narrows it

heterosexual. Yeah. Um and narrows it down. Um that we don't know exactly

down. Um that we don't know exactly whether for example

whether for example a gay parent, two male parents, maybe

a gay parent, two male parents, maybe there's a little bit missing because of

there's a little bit missing because of a lack of female input or whether with

a lack of female input or whether with two female parents is a lack of because

two female parents is a lack of because there's no male direct male input. The

there's no male direct male input. The other thing to say is around these

other thing to say is around these families you pro you know I can there

families you pro you know I can there are very few gay parenting families

are very few gay parenting families where there are no women involved at all

where there are no women involved at all and there are very few lesbian couples

and there are very few lesbian couples who have no male involvement at all. So

who have no male involvement at all. So we it's a very complex mess really in

we it's a very complex mess really in terms of what the inputs are. But I

terms of what the inputs are. But I think the the the study that discovered

think the the the study that discovered this were just astonished at the amazing

this were just astonished at the amazing plasticity of the brain that that a man

plasticity of the brain that that a man who did not go through pregnancy and

who did not go through pregnancy and childirth and is does not have this

childirth and is does not have this evolutionarily ancient instinct in terms

evolutionarily ancient instinct in terms of motherhood could actually adopt this

of motherhood could actually adopt this role and we would see this activation.

role and we would see this activation. That's in a way the biggest takehome

That's in a way the biggest takehome from it is that it will adapt in such a

from it is that it will adapt in such a powerful way to make sure that child

powerful way to make sure that child gets what it needs. So do we need

gets what it needs. So do we need fathers? Yes.

fathers? Yes. Why? What is it that the fathers bring

Why? What is it that the fathers bring that can't be done by some other means

that can't be done by some other means though? Because we don't yet know first

though? Because we don't yet know first of all whether these adaptations in the

of all whether these adaptations in the female brain for example are enough

female brain for example are enough because that research hasn't been done

because that research hasn't been done and secondly there are very few children

and secondly there are very few children who don't have a father actually if you

who don't have a father actually if you look at their social grouping. Now it

look at their social grouping. Now it might not be a father who co-resides. It

might not be a father who co-resides. It might not be a father who they see that

might not be a father who they see that frequently, but it could be, you know,

frequently, but it could be, you know, and when we remember we're talking about

and when we remember we're talking about grandfathers, uncles, teachers, coaches,

grandfathers, uncles, teachers, coaches, whoever it might be. It might be a whole

whoever it might be. It might be a whole team of men who step in and out at

team of men who step in and out at different times. It's very rare that a

different times. It's very rare that a child doesn't have any male input in

child doesn't have any male input in their life. And that is what a father

their life. And that is what a father is. It's not your biological father.

is. It's not your biological father. So, is it that we need a father figure

So, is it that we need a father figure around, but we don't necessarily need a

around, but we don't necessarily need a father in the home? you do not have to

father in the home? you do not have to co-reside. One of the things that drives

co-reside. One of the things that drives me slightly around the bend is when

me slightly around the bend is when people talk about absent fathers.

people talk about absent fathers. Um sometimes the father is truly absent.

Um sometimes the father is truly absent. Absolutely. But in some cases he's not.

Absolutely. But in some cases he's not. He just doesn't live there. And that's

He just doesn't live there. And that's what we've got to be very clear about.

what we've got to be very clear about. You do not have to co-reside. And there

You do not have to co-reside. And there are cultures in the world where

are cultures in the world where co-resident is not the norm. And so it's

co-resident is not the norm. And so it's about being in your child's life. You do

about being in your child's life. You do not have to live with them. Are we

not have to live with them. Are we getting more fatherless as a western

getting more fatherless as a western society?

society? It would seem so at the moment in terms

It would seem so at the moment in terms of biological fathers. Yes.

of biological fathers. Yes. Unfortunately, and that's one of the

Unfortunately, and that's one of the things that we really need to to focus

things that we really need to to focus on. I've recently become a trustee of a

on. I've recently become a trustee of a new policy unit which is the center for

new policy unit which is the center for research into men and boys. And my role

research into men and boys. And my role there is to look at the role of fathers,

there is to look at the role of fathers, how we support fathers, how we support

how we support fathers, how we support boys in having male figures in their

boys in having male figures in their lives. because we are seeing because

lives. because we are seeing because divorce has become more culturally

divorce has become more culturally acceptable possibly because of longer

acceptable possibly because of longer lifespans and relationships aren't

lifespans and relationships aren't lasting as long. There's lots of reasons

lasting as long. There's lots of reasons why we are getting more children who do

why we are getting more children who do not have fathers in their lives. It's

not have fathers in their lives. It's also a major issue in the US. I you know

also a major issue in the US. I you know I know you know Richard Reeves and I

I know you know Richard Reeves and I work with Richard Reeves on it and that

work with Richard Reeves on it and that is issue and that's why we have to start

is issue and that's why we have to start looking in a creative way about what a

looking in a creative way about what a father is because those kids don't

father is because those kids don't necessarily have their biological father

necessarily have their biological father in life but they need somebody and that

in life but they need somebody and that might be encouraging links within the

might be encouraging links within the community. It might be helping single

community. It might be helping single mothers identify those male figures

mothers identify those male figures within their environment and supporting

within their environment and supporting those male figures and coming forward.

those male figures and coming forward. It might be that we need more

It might be that we need more organizations like Lads and Need Dads

organizations like Lads and Need Dads which is an organization in the UK that

which is an organization in the UK that provides male father figures, mentors to

provides male father figures, mentors to boys who don't have a father in their

boys who don't have a father in their life. Is there anything better than a

life. Is there anything better than a biological father? Yes, a father. There

biological father? Yes, a father. There is. So even if it's a sort of a

is. So even if it's a sort of a stepfather or if it's because you don't

stepfather or if it's because you don't get to become a father indeed you don't

get to become a father indeed you don't get to become a mother just because you

get to become a mother just because you happen to conceive a child. So from a

happen to conceive a child. So from a development perspective, it doesn't

development perspective, it doesn't matter if there's no difference in

matter if there's no difference in biological fathers versus, you know,

biological fathers versus, you know, Dave who took took care of me because

Dave who took took care of me because the changes we spoke about happen

the changes we spoke about happen whether you're biologically related to

whether you're biologically related to that child or not because they happen

that child or not because they happen through interaction. So any man who

through interaction. So any man who steps in and does the job well see the

steps in and does the job well see the hormone changes, we'll see the brain

hormone changes, we'll see the brain changes which we we haven't spoken

changes which we we haven't spoken about, um we'll see the psychological

about, um we'll see the psychological changes, they will see them all because

changes, they will see them all because they happen through interaction. So you

they happen through interaction. So you don't you're not as a biological father

don't you're not as a biological father the moment you conceive that child

the moment you conceive that child suddenly get this mysterious ability to

suddenly get this mysterious ability to be a father. You don't it happens

be a father. You don't it happens because you happen to be interacting and

because you happen to be interacting and live and and and inputting into that

live and and and inputting into that child's life. So no there is no

child's life. So no there is no hierarchy.

hierarchy. It's are you doing the job? Yes I am.

It's are you doing the job? Yes I am. Are you doing it in a good and healthy

Are you doing it in a good and healthy and positive way? Yes I am. Okay. You

and positive way? Yes I am. Okay. You get to be dad. So you really you're

get to be dad. So you really you're making the case for father figures.

making the case for father figures. Yeah. in a child's life versus and and a

Yeah. in a child's life versus and and a and a child growing up without a father

and a child growing up without a father figure at all, yes, is going to have

figure at all, yes, is going to have worse outcomes. There is a risk. They

worse outcomes. There is a risk. They won't necessarily, but the statistics

won't necessarily, but the statistics are quite powerful in terms of those

are quite powerful in terms of those outcomes. There was a study done

outcomes. There was a study done recently in the UK by the Center for

recently in the UK by the Center for Justice called Lost Boys and that was

Justice called Lost Boys and that was looking at and and one aspect of that

looking at and and one aspect of that was looking at boys and their outcomes

was looking at boys and their outcomes if they don't have a father figure and

if they don't have a father figure and it is quite powerful in terms of the

it is quite powerful in terms of the increased risk of having negative

increased risk of having negative outcomes. So if you're in a lesbian

outcomes. So if you're in a lesbian relationship

relationship and you're so two women,

and you're so two women, are you saying that you really

are you saying that you really should make sure that the child is

should make sure that the child is exposed to a father figure? Yeah, I

exposed to a father figure? Yeah, I would say that. I would say that. I

would say that. I would say that. I mean, some people I get attacked for

mean, some people I get attacked for saying things like that and I'm not

saying things like that and I'm not trying to say there are gender roles or

trying to say there are gender roles or any of those sorts of things, but we h

any of those sorts of things, but we h children have evolved. The reason why

children have evolved. The reason why human fatherhood evolved is because

human fatherhood evolved is because children evolved to be brought up by a

children evolved to be brought up by a group of people. And part of that group

group of people. And part of that group of people was a father figure. Now, as

of people was a father figure. Now, as we see from cultures around the world,

we see from cultures around the world, it does not have to be the biological

it does not have to be the biological father, but they have a father figure or

father, but they have a father figure or a team of father figures. It doesn't

a team of father figures. It doesn't have to be one person. It could be

have to be one person. It could be several people. And does that go the

several people. And does that go the other way? If you're in if two men

other way? If you're in if two men married, I would always advise that that

married, I would always advise that that that's how children to have those two

that's how children to have those two inputs. So, find those women in your

inputs. So, find those women in your life and and ask them to step in and do

life and and ask them to step in and do that. And and another anomaly that we

that. And and another anomaly that we hear a lot is that it's particularly

hear a lot is that it's particularly important for boys. Actually,

important for boys. Actually, it is critical for boys, but arguably

it is critical for boys, but arguably it's kind of touch and go as whether

it's kind of touch and go as whether it's more critical for girls. Um the

it's more critical for girls. Um the data coming out about

data coming out about daughters and the impact that fathers

daughters and the impact that fathers have on daughters is pretty powerful

have on daughters is pretty powerful stuff. And so it's it's not just that we

stuff. And so it's it's not just that we need these father figures so boys know

need these father figures so boys know how to grow up to be, you know, positive

how to grow up to be, you know, positive masculine figures, to be men, whatever

masculine figures, to be men, whatever it might be. It's also really critical

it might be. It's also really critical for girls that they have a father figure

for girls that they have a father figure around. What's the the data coming out

around. What's the the data coming out regarding the dad daughter bond? So what

regarding the dad daughter bond? So what we're finding is um daughters who grow

we're finding is um daughters who grow up with uh a secure attachment to their

up with uh a secure attachment to their father um they have increased abilities

father um they have increased abilities in or increased success in terms of

in or increased success in terms of academics in terms of education. They

academics in terms of education. They have increased career success. They tend

have increased career success. They tend to have much better me uh mental health.

to have much better me uh mental health. They tend to be much better at

They tend to be much better at relationships. They tend to have less

relationships. They tend to have less risky particularly sexual relationships.

risky particularly sexual relationships. And they have just better well-being

And they have just better well-being scores. And they are much more likely as

scores. And they are much more likely as I said to have stable good relationships

I said to have stable good relationships in their in their older life in their

in their in their older life in their adult life. When you think about society

adult life. When you think about society and how we're forming our relationships,

and how we're forming our relationships, especially around child rearing. Yes.

especially around child rearing. Yes. What are we increasingly getting wrong

What are we increasingly getting wrong here? I spoke to Erica Commisser. And

here? I spoke to Erica Commisser. And she's very passionate about the

she's very passionate about the detrimental impact of daycare, right?

detrimental impact of daycare, right? because she feels that the mother's

because she feels that the mother's plays a critical role in those first two

plays a critical role in those first two years and then the father plays a

years and then the father plays a critical role beyond from about two

critical role beyond from about two years onwards when the kid starts to get

years onwards when the kid starts to get into that play phase. I would argue with

into that play phase. I would argue with her on that point but okay which point

her on that point but okay which point would you argue on the second point?

would you argue on the second point? Yeah, that is critical from the moment

Yeah, that is critical from the moment that child is born. Um and I I get quite

that child is born. Um and I I get quite upset when I get father s I met a father

upset when I get father s I met a father the other day at an event. He I think

the other day at an event. He I think his baby was six months old and he was a

his baby was six months old and he was a he was a a dad worker this guy. He

he was a a dad worker this guy. He worked with dads. He was a he was a

worked with dads. He was a he was a community worker who worked with with

community worker who worked with with dads with older kids. He said, "Oh, I've

dads with older kids. He said, "Oh, I've had my I was like, "Congratulations." He

had my I was like, "Congratulations." He went, "Yeah, but you know, I know I'm

went, "Yeah, but you know, I know I'm not particularly important until, you

not particularly important until, you know, until baby's like, you know, at

know, until baby's like, you know, at least 18 months, two years." So, I'm

least 18 months, two years." So, I'm just changing nappies, but I know that

just changing nappies, but I know that I'm not I'm not really doing much. And I

I'm not I'm not really doing much. And I was just like, "Oh my god, I literally

was just like, "Oh my god, I literally cannot believe this man is saying this,

cannot believe this man is saying this, bearing in mind what he does for a

bearing in mind what he does for a living." I was like, "You are absolutely

living." I was like, "You are absolutely critical. From the moment that baby is

critical. From the moment that baby is born, you are critical." Why? Because

born, you are critical." Why? Because the baby's brain is growing. babies are

the baby's brain is growing. babies are b so human babies are born months before

b so human babies are born months before they should be and the reason for that

they should be and the reason for that is because two anatomical anomalies we

is because two anatomical anomalies we are bipedal and we have an enormous

are bipedal and we have an enormous brain at full size our brain is six

brain at full size our brain is six times bigger than it should be for a

times bigger than it should be for a mammal of our body weight it's highly

mammal of our body weight it's highly encphilized so enphilization is all this

encphilized so enphilization is all this folded and folded and folded so it's

folded and folded and folded so it's folded like this because we've got a ram

folded like this because we've got a ram it into our skull if you look at the

it into our skull if you look at the brain of a mouse it's smooth so when we

brain of a mouse it's smooth so when we became bipeedal about fully bipedal

became bipeedal about fully bipedal about sort of 1.8 8 million years ago.

about sort of 1.8 8 million years ago. Bipedal meaning two legs. If you look at

Bipedal meaning two legs. If you look at at something that walks on four legs,

at something that walks on four legs, like an ape, a chimp, who's our close,

like an ape, a chimp, who's our close, their their legs are quite wide apart,

their their legs are quite wide apart, so their birth canal is really broad.

so their birth canal is really broad. Um, ours is really narrow because we've

Um, ours is really narrow because we've had to come in like this to to maintain

had to come in like this to to maintain being able to stand upright. So, if we

being able to stand upright. So, if we tried to birth our babies when their

tried to birth our babies when their brains were nearly fully grown, like

brains were nearly fully grown, like happens in other apes, mom would die,

happens in other apes, mom would die, baby would die, and our species would

baby would die, and our species would have died out a very long time ago. So,

have died out a very long time ago. So, about 1.8 8 million years ago, we we

about 1.8 8 million years ago, we we reached a threshold where the brain had

reached a threshold where the brain had to do some growing after we were born.

to do some growing after we were born. And the way that we dealt with that was

And the way that we dealt with that was we birthed our babies early. We selected

we birthed our babies early. We selected to birth our babies early. And that's

to birth our babies early. And that's why they're so completely helpless.

why they're so completely helpless. Because if you look at a chimp baby, a

Because if you look at a chimp baby, a chimp baby's pretty mobile just after

chimp baby's pretty mobile just after it's born. It's got pretty good motor

it's born. It's got pretty good motor function. It can hold on to stuff. It

function. It can hold on to stuff. It can do various things. Can't feed

can do various things. Can't feed itself, but it can. Um whereas human

itself, but it can. Um whereas human babies, they can't do anything for

babies, they can't do anything for themselves. They literally can't. They

themselves. They literally can't. They can't focus. They can't hold their head

can't focus. They can't hold their head up. They can't move. They can't

up. They can't move. They can't coordinate their limbs. They can't clean

coordinate their limbs. They can't clean themselves. They can't do anything. And

themselves. They can't do anything. And that's because they're born far too

that's because they're born far too early. They should be in months longer

early. They should be in months longer essentially. So, we have this period of

essentially. So, we have this period of rapid brain growth after we're born. And

rapid brain growth after we're born. And because the main bit of the brain that's

because the main bit of the brain that's growing at this point is this massive

growing at this point is this massive preffrontal cortex, which is the social

preffrontal cortex, which is the social bit. Um, the environment in which you

bit. Um, the environment in which you grow up is critical. And who is really

grow up is critical. And who is really important in the social bit? The dad. So

important in the social bit? The dad. So from the moment your baby is born and

from the moment your baby is born and this is growing, dad needs to be having

this is growing, dad needs to be having an input because this is where it's

an input because this is where it's growing. Mom is also obviously vital,

growing. Mom is also obviously vital, but we have to have both parents

but we have to have both parents involved or you have to have that input

involved or you have to have that input at that point. So these dads who believe

at that point. So these dads who believe or people who believe that dad's only

or people who believe that dad's only important after two years, I'm I'm

important after two years, I'm I'm sorry, you have a fundamental

sorry, you have a fundamental misunderstanding of how the brain

misunderstanding of how the brain develops and of child development

develops and of child development because you need to start teaching that

because you need to start teaching that child by inputting into that child by by

child by inputting into that child by by giving that sensory input in particular.

giving that sensory input in particular. Human babies need a lot of touch. They

Human babies need a lot of touch. They need a lot of smell. They need a lot of

need a lot of smell. They need a lot of all that kind of thing. You need to be

all that kind of thing. You need to be doing that as early as possible because

doing that as early as possible because this is growing from the moment it comes

this is growing from the moment it comes out. Is it fair to say that in that 0ero

out. Is it fair to say that in that 0ero to2 phase, mothers are more important?

to2 phase, mothers are more important? No, because they do different things.

No, because they do different things. They do different things. Mothers tend

They do different things. Mothers tend to be more involved partly because of um

to be more involved partly because of um the fact that from a biological point of

the fact that from a biological point of view, women give birth. Um if you're

view, women give birth. Um if you're breastfeeding, they're the only ones who

breastfeeding, they're the only ones who can do that. So we are tied in terms of

can do that. So we are tied in terms of um having to do that. The other thing I

um having to do that. The other thing I would say is also giving birth is a

would say is also giving birth is a really really tricky thing to do and

really really tricky thing to do and it's physically and emotionally utterly

it's physically and emotionally utterly draining. So you need a period of

draining. So you need a period of recovery um and therefore you you are

recovery um and therefore you you are the one who's basically at home

the one who's basically at home particester

context a baby from the moment it's born generally in some cultures will be cared

generally in some cultures will be cared for by both mom and dad. It's only

for by both mom and dad. It's only because we have this capitalist system

because we have this capitalist system where someone's got to go and earn some

where someone's got to go and earn some money that dads don't. So I wouldn't

money that dads don't. So I wouldn't necessarily argue moms are more

necessarily argue moms are more important. They are in a position from a

important. They are in a position from a biological point of view that they're

biological point of view that they're going to be there. They are just going

going to be there. They are just going to be there. And in our system that

to be there. And in our system that means somebody else it doesn't have to

means somebody else it doesn't have to be there and that's dad and he'll go and

be there and that's dad and he'll go and earn the money to support the family.

earn the money to support the family. But you they need the input from both.

But you they need the input from both. Is it fair to say then that the primary

Is it fair to say then that the primary caregiver is the most important? And

caregiver is the most important? And what I mean by that is the baby's going

what I mean by that is the baby's going to form strongest attachment to the

to form strongest attachment to the person taking most care of it and

person taking most care of it and therefore its attachment style will be

therefore its attachment style will be shaped by the relationship to that

shaped by the relationship to that primary caregiver. It's really tricky to

primary caregiver. It's really tricky to say because yes, primary caregivers are

say because yes, primary caregivers are really important in terms of being most

really important in terms of being most of the environment of development in

of the environment of development in those early days, particularly if this

those early days, particularly if this what we call I don't really like calling

what we call I don't really like calling them secondary care, but the other

them secondary care, but the other parent is out and about and therefore

parent is out and about and therefore not present. The environment in which a

not present. The environment in which a baby grows isn't just about who's

baby grows isn't just about who's caretaking them, who's giving them a

caretaking them, who's giving them a hug. One of the things I really always

hug. One of the things I really always talk to parents to be about is your

talk to parents to be about is your relationship builds that environment as

relationship builds that environment as well. So parents are actually babies are

well. So parents are actually babies are also actually taking on board the

also actually taking on board the dynamics between their parents.

dynamics between their parents. And one of the things that I always um

And one of the things that I always um try to get into anti courses is

try to get into anti courses is preparing the parenting relationship

preparing the parenting relationship because actually you need to build an

because actually you need to build an environment which is

environment which is as calm and as reciprocal and as safe as

as calm and as reciprocal and as safe as you can do for that child. And that

you can do for that child. And that means for example before you have a baby

means for example before you have a baby learning good conflict management style.

learning good conflict management style. You're going to have an argument. Okay?

You're going to have an argument. Okay? It's not about having an argument. It's

It's not about having an argument. It's about the reconciliation of that

about the reconciliation of that argument. It's about the resolution of

argument. It's about the resolution of that argument. So, it's about that. It's

that argument. So, it's about that. It's about understanding difference. You're

about understanding difference. You're going to parent in different ways. That

going to parent in different ways. That can be really challenging to some

can be really challenging to some couples. They find it very difficult.

couples. They find it very difficult. So, you prepare them for that. So, the

So, you prepare them for that. So, the environment is not just the primary

environment is not just the primary caretaker. And that's what's fascinating

caretaker. And that's what's fascinating about humans is human babies is it's a

about humans is human babies is it's a nap saying, it's a true saying are

nap saying, it's a true saying are raised by a village. So, the environment

raised by a village. So, the environment of development isn't just the primary

of development isn't just the primary caretaken parent. It's everybody who's

caretaken parent. It's everybody who's around that child as well. And in our in

around that child as well. And in our in our world that might be family, that

our world that might be family, that might be friends where we live greater

might be friends where we live greater distances from our family. So sometimes

distances from our family. So sometimes that's more professionals that have an

that's more professionals that have an input into that child's life. I guess

input into that child's life. I guess I'm trying to figure out what's optimal

I'm trying to figure out what's optimal in my relationship cuz I'm probably

in my relationship cuz I'm probably about to head into parenthood. Yeah. And

about to head into parenthood. Yeah. And I'm trying to understand, you know, I'm

I'm trying to understand, you know, I'm trying to understand how what I should

trying to understand how what I should configure my situation. Yes. In those

configure my situation. Yes. In those early years um with my partner and me,

early years um with my partner and me, we both work. Um my job is requires me

we both work. Um my job is requires me to fly a little bit more than hers. um

to fly a little bit more than hers. um but just just because that's the way

but just just because that's the way that I've chosen my my career to be. She

that I've chosen my my career to be. She spends more time at home but still very

spends more time at home but still very very busy, still flying around the world

very busy, still flying around the world doing her own thing. So I'm thinking

doing her own thing. So I'm thinking when that baby arrives, what should we

when that baby arrives, what should we based on everything you know about

based on everything you know about humans and human history and the human

humans and human history and the human brain and everything that's

brain and everything that's interconnected? What's the optimal

interconnected? What's the optimal optimal scenario for me and my partner?

optimal scenario for me and my partner? Do you know something? It's really hard

Do you know something? It's really hard because what I always say to parents

because what I always say to parents because parents are really good at

because parents are really good at beating themselves up is happy parents

beating themselves up is happy parents make happy babies. So, first of all, you

make happy babies. So, first of all, you have to do what works for you and

have to do what works for you and everybody's circumstances are different.

everybody's circumstances are different. And there are needs that everybody's

And there are needs that everybody's going to have. So, yes, your baby has

going to have. So, yes, your baby has needs in terms of nurturance, in terms

needs in terms of nurturance, in terms of support, in terms of building

of support, in terms of building attachments, but your baby also needs a

attachments, but your baby also needs a roof over their head, and they need food

roof over their head, and they need food on the table, and they need all that,

on the table, and they need all that, and they need whoever's caring for them

and they need whoever's caring for them to be healthy. So, it really depends

to be healthy. So, it really depends upon what works for you. In an ideal

upon what works for you. In an ideal world, somebody asked me the other day,

world, somebody asked me the other day, because at the moment in the UK, we're

because at the moment in the UK, we're having a lot of campaigns about

having a lot of campaigns about paternity leave. Um, in the UK at the

paternity leave. Um, in the UK at the moment you can have two weeks, which is

moment you can have two weeks, which is frankly laughable. Um, and the dad can

frankly laughable. Um, and the dad can have two weeks. The dad can have two

have two weeks. The dad can have two weeks. Not if you're self-employed, but

weeks. Not if you're self-employed, but if you're employed, um, if you're

if you're employed, um, if you're self-employed, you're kind of on your

self-employed, you're kind of on your own. We're trying to push the government

own. We're trying to push the government to take it to six weeks, which isn't our

to take it to six weeks, which isn't our ideal, but it's how far we think we

ideal, but it's how far we think we might be able to push them. Somebody

might be able to push them. Somebody asked me the other day, what would be

asked me the other day, what would be the ideal for a dad? I'm afraid I

the ideal for a dad? I'm afraid I started at 6 months. Please, that would

started at 6 months. Please, that would be lovely. In places like Sweden, the

be lovely. In places like Sweden, the dad gets a year. Um because babies

dad gets a year. Um because babies develop with different inputs from

develop with different inputs from different people. I know you're in a

different people. I know you're in a heterosexual couple. So he your baby

heterosexual couple. So he your baby will need your dad's input and mom's

will need your dad's input and mom's input and they will need those in every

input and they will need those in every whatever configuration works for you. So

whatever configuration works for you. So it might be that at some period

it might be that at some period particularly after child birth and

particularly after child birth and stuff, your partner is going to have to

stuff, your partner is going to have to have time off. She is not going to, you

have time off. She is not going to, you know, it's very hard to race back to

know, it's very hard to race back to work after you've had a baby. Some women

work after you've had a baby. Some women manage it. I think they're astonishing.

manage it. I think they're astonishing. I certainly couldn't have done it. So

I certainly couldn't have done it. So that's fine. You go do that. but that

that's fine. You go do that. but that she's going to need a period of time.

she's going to need a period of time. But then are you in a situation where

But then are you in a situation where you can work a little bit flexibly? So

you can work a little bit flexibly? So is there is there a point where you can

is there is there a point where you can say okay you go and do some work and

say okay you go and do some work and I'll take the baby for a bit and you

I'll take the baby for a bit and you switch that way. Now obviously if the

switch that way. Now obviously if the mom is breastfeeding it's harder because

mom is breastfeeding it's harder because she is tied more to the baby. You can

she is tied more to the baby. You can express milk as much as you like but

express milk as much as you like but it's quite difficult as a breastfeeding

it's quite difficult as a breastfeeding mother to go off on a work trip for a

mother to go off on a work trip for a week. So so the first point there is

week. So so the first point there is really that she's probably going to need

really that she's probably going to need to take some time. She is going to need

to take some time. She is going to need to take some time unless she is in a

to take some time unless she is in a position where she really thinks that

position where she really thinks that she is going to be capable of physically

she is going to be capable of physically and psychologically going back to work.

and psychologically going back to work. I've met women who do it, but it's

I've met women who do it, but it's really hard. Now, particularly when in

really hard. Now, particularly when in those first early weeks, actually, she's

those first early weeks, actually, she's going to need you or she's going to need

going to need you or she's going to need someone to help her. My husband is

someone to help her. My husband is self-employed. Um, my husband actually

self-employed. Um, my husband actually only managed to have two days of

only managed to have two days of paternity leave before he had to go back

paternity leave before he had to go back to work. So, my wonderful mom stepped

to work. So, my wonderful mom stepped in. But, she's going to need somebody

in. But, she's going to need somebody there. In an ideal world, as long as you

there. In an ideal world, as long as you were happy to do that, that would be you

were happy to do that, that would be you because your baby would really benefit

because your baby would really benefit from that. And then from there, you have

from that. And then from there, you have to take it the way it works for you in

to take it the way it works for you in terms of your career because whoever

terms of your career because whoever looks after that baby, it doesn't have

looks after that baby, it doesn't have to be mom or or dad. It can be a mixture

to be mom or or dad. It can be a mixture of both. But but I'm able to make

of both. But but I'm able to make concessions. Maybe I'm I'm in a

concessions. Maybe I'm I'm in a privileged position where I can make I

privileged position where I can make I can kind of design my life a little

can kind of design my life a little Well, from a from an ideal point of view

Well, from a from an ideal point of view then you will at that point try and be

then you will at that point try and be with your baby as much as you can and do

with your baby as much as you can and do that and do as many of the tasks with

that and do as many of the tasks with your baby you can because actually from

your baby you can because actually from your point of view as a man men the

your point of view as a man men the psychological changes that a man goes

psychological changes that a man goes through when he becomes a father it's

through when he becomes a father it's known as the transition to parenthood in

known as the transition to parenthood in most men who work it takes two years and

most men who work it takes two years and one of the reasons it takes two years

one of the reasons it takes two years whereas in a mother it takes about nine

whereas in a mother it takes about nine months is because one of the factors in

months is because one of the factors in how quickly you transition to adopting

how quickly you transition to adopting that identity And how comfortable you

that identity And how comfortable you feel with that identity is down to

feel with that identity is down to competency. How competent do you feel as

competency. How competent do you feel as a parent? Now many western dads, they

a parent? Now many western dads, they don't get the opportunity to reach

don't get the opportunity to reach competency very quickly because they

competency very quickly because they have to go to work. So they don't get to

have to go to work. So they don't get to care for their baby. And that's one of

care for their baby. And that's one of the things we know that men who get that

the things we know that men who get that chance transition to parenthood much

chance transition to parenthood much quicker because they reach competency

quicker because they reach competency quicker. They absorb the identity of

quicker. They absorb the identity of being a dad quicker and that is better

being a dad quicker and that is better for them. This transition to parenthood,

for them. This transition to parenthood, is that a biological thing? It's it's

is that a biological thing? It's it's underpinned by the biology by the by the

underpinned by the biology by the by the um brain changes and hormone changes

um brain changes and hormone changes you're going to undergo. But it's a

you're going to undergo. But it's a psychological state. So it's about

psychological state. So it's about configuring your identity and absorbing

configuring your identity and absorbing that particular new aspect of your

that particular new aspect of your identity into who into your sense of

identity into who into your sense of being and also feeling comfortable with

being and also feeling comfortable with that. We know men who struggle with that

that. We know men who struggle with that transition are much more likely to

transition are much more likely to suffer from postnatal depression for

suffer from postnatal depression for example. And postnatal depression has a

example. And postnatal depression has a fundamental impact not only on your

fundamental impact not only on your partner but also on your child. So, we

partner but also on your child. So, we want to be protective against that. So,

want to be protective against that. So, she needs some time. Um, she's going to

she needs some time. Um, she's going to need me for supportive reasons in those

need me for supportive reasons in those early weeks. And then the more time I

early weeks. And then the more time I can spend with my child, the more I'm

can spend with my child, the more I'm going to psychologically adjust to and

going to psychologically adjust to and the more and the quicker you're going to

the more and the quicker you're going to build your bond because as I said

build your bond because as I said earlier, you build your bond through

earlier, you build your bond through interaction

interaction and your your partner's going to have a

and your your partner's going to have a head start. She just is because of

head start. She just is because of pregnancy and ch and if she's

pregnancy and ch and if she's breastfeeding as well, breastfeeding is

breastfeeding as well, breastfeeding is really good for releasing oxytocin. You

really good for releasing oxytocin. You have to do it through interaction. And

have to do it through interaction. And in those early weeks with a baby,

in those early weeks with a baby, they're very dependent. And particularly

they're very dependent. And particularly if your partner is breastfeeding,

if your partner is breastfeeding, they're very mom focused because she is

they're very mom focused because she is the source of food. And newborn babies

the source of food. And newborn babies feed for ages. So a lot of men say to

feed for ages. So a lot of men say to me, I want to build a relationship, but

me, I want to build a relationship, but I literally cannot find an end. So what

I literally cannot find an end. So what we say is make something special. So

we say is make something special. So make something that's yours. It could be

make something that's yours. It could be bath time. It could be reading your baby

bath time. It could be reading your baby a book. It's never too early to begin

a book. It's never too early to begin reading your baby a book. Or a really

reading your baby a book. Or a really good one is baby massage. Baby massage

good one is baby massage. Baby massage is great because touch is is the biggest

is great because touch is is the biggest releaser of bonding hormones there are.

releaser of bonding hormones there are. If you massage your baby, your baby's

If you massage your baby, your baby's getting all those lovely hormones and so

getting all those lovely hormones and so are you. So, you're building that bond

are you. So, you're building that bond between you. You're close enough that so

between you. You're close enough that so your baby's getting sensory input,

your baby's getting sensory input, particularly sense of smell. So, baby's

particularly sense of smell. So, baby's vision is not great when they're born,

vision is not great when they're born, but their sense of smell is brilliant

but their sense of smell is brilliant because they're little mammals. So,

because they're little mammals. So, they're starting to really get your

they're starting to really get your smell and that's going to help them

smell and that's going to help them attach to you. We also know baby massage

attach to you. We also know baby massage is one of the only really good

is one of the only really good interventions that prevents postnatal

interventions that prevents postnatal depression in men. So, I love that. I

depression in men. So, I love that. I just had this little flash in my head of

just had this little flash in my head of all the babies that just got a massage

all the babies that just got a massage because you said that. Yeah. And they're

because you said that. Yeah. And they're all blissed out. I mean, there's some

all blissed out. I mean, there's some brilliant videos on YouTube. Oh, if you

brilliant videos on YouTube. Oh, if you want to learn, you don't have to go to a

want to learn, you don't have to go to a class. Watch. There's wonderful videos

class. Watch. There's wonderful videos of baby massage and whole classes of men

of baby massage and whole classes of men massaging babies. I mean, it's

massaging babies. I mean, it's brilliant. So, you also want to be there

brilliant. So, you also want to be there because you need to build that bond. And

because you need to build that bond. And the only way you're going to do that is

the only way you're going to do that is interaction. And so, and as your baby

interaction. And so, and as your baby develops, that interaction becomes

develops, that interaction becomes easier because the baby will start

easier because the baby will start babbling. They'll start smiling. in

babbling. They'll start smiling. in about six to eight weeks they'll start

about six to eight weeks they'll start smiling and they'll start smiling at

smiling and they'll start smiling at you. Um and that's just you know that's

you. Um and that's just you know that's you can forgive them anything when they

you can forgive them anything when they do that. Um and then they'll start you

do that. Um and then they'll start you know really reacting when you come in

know really reacting when you come in being pleased to see you then they'll

being pleased to see you then they'll start giggling and then at about 6

start giggling and then at about 6 months if you are a rough and tumble dad

months if you are a rough and tumble dad you can start doing very gentle rough

you can start doing very gentle rough and tumble play with them and and you

and tumble play with them and and you can just take it from there. The

can just take it from there. The interaction grows more and more and

interaction grows more and more and more. One of the things we have to

more. One of the things we have to prepare men for which I do a lot when I

prepare men for which I do a lot when I work with men uh during pregnancy is the

work with men uh during pregnancy is the delay in bonding. So, we have this idea

delay in bonding. So, we have this idea that baby's going to come out and we're

that baby's going to come out and we're going to feel a flood of love and it's

going to feel a flood of love and it's going to be it's going to be like, you

going to be it's going to be like, you know, shining, amazing, wonderful. That

know, shining, amazing, wonderful. That doesn't happen for women a lot of the

doesn't happen for women a lot of the time, but men find it very difficult

time, but men find it very difficult because because they grow their bond

because because they grow their bond through interaction. When the baby comes

through interaction. When the baby comes out, they they tend to have a

out, they they tend to have a recognition of connection. It's like,

recognition of connection. It's like, yes, that's my baby. That's my genetic

yes, that's my baby. That's my genetic baby. It's genetically related to me. I

baby. It's genetically related to me. I am a father. I will look after it. But

am a father. I will look after it. But it's very conscious. When I talk to my

it's very conscious. When I talk to my dads quite often when I visit them at

dads quite often when I visit them at two weeks, a lot of them are worrying

two weeks, a lot of them are worrying about the bond because they're not

about the bond because they're not feeling how they thought they would

feeling how they thought they would feel. They're looking at their partner

feel. They're looking at their partner who's had a head start and thinking,

who's had a head start and thinking, "Well, she's the gold standard of

"Well, she's the gold standard of bonding. She's amazing at it. I'm

bonding. She's amazing at it. I'm failing. My baby doesn't like me. I'm

failing. My baby doesn't like me. I'm rubbish at this." And that's not good

rubbish at this." And that's not good for their mental health. And what they

for their mental health. And what they tend to do is withdraw from the baby,

tend to do is withdraw from the baby, which is the worst thing you can do. But

which is the worst thing you can do. But then when I speak to them when at six

then when I speak to them when at six months with the baby, they all say, "I

months with the baby, they all say, "I love my baby deeply." and it's

love my baby deeply." and it's categorically different to how I felt at

categorically different to how I felt at the start and that's because they've had

the start and that's because they've had to interact for that time to build that

to interact for that time to build that bond. Is it fair to say that the woman's

bond. Is it fair to say that the woman's bond comes more hormonally and the

bond comes more hormonally and the father's reaction comes more from

father's reaction comes more from interaction? Yeah, because you will get

interaction? Yeah, because you will get your hormones from your interaction.

your hormones from your interaction. Whereas she has got her hormones mostly

Whereas she has got her hormones mostly uh at the start from being pregnant and

uh at the start from being pregnant and giving birth and breastfeeding. And

giving birth and breastfeeding. And breastfeeding. So she's getting lots of

breastfeeding. So she's getting lots of physiologically based hormones and she

physiologically based hormones and she will also get hormones from interaction.

will also get hormones from interaction. Obviously she will, but she's ahead of

Obviously she will, but she's ahead of you. You're going to have to massage

you. You're going to have to massage that baby to go get You are really going

that baby to go get You are really going to have to massage that baby or play

to have to massage that baby or play with them. I guess that's the other

with them. I guess that's the other thing you said. Yeah. You mentioned

thing you said. Yeah. You mentioned something before we started recording

something before we started recording which was curious to me and I've never

which was curious to me and I've never heard of before, which is you mentioned

heard of before, which is you mentioned um love drugs. Yes. I've never heard of

um love drugs. Yes. I've never heard of that before. Okay. I mean, what's that

that before. Okay. I mean, what's that like MDMA or something? Yes. So, we kind

like MDMA or something? Yes. So, we kind of probably know just about enough about

of probably know just about enough about the neuroscience of love now,

the neuroscience of love now, particularly the neurochemicals which

particularly the neurochemicals which underpin it, that should we wish to, we

underpin it, that should we wish to, we could finally produce the elixir of

could finally produce the elixir of love. So, since we've written things

love. So, since we've written things down, we have been fascinated with

down, we have been fascinated with finding the elixir of love. There's

finding the elixir of love. There's loads of ancient texts about potions

loads of ancient texts about potions that will make you fall in love. It's

that will make you fall in love. It's something that as humans, we've always

something that as humans, we've always wanted and it's partly because love is

wanted and it's partly because love is unpredictable and uncontrollable and

unpredictable and uncontrollable and humans really can't deal with that. We

humans really can't deal with that. We we like to know what is going to happen

we like to know what is going to happen and we like to be able to control it as

and we like to be able to control it as far as we can. So, wouldn't it be great

far as we can. So, wouldn't it be great if you could pop a pill or drink

if you could pop a pill or drink something which meant that when you went

something which meant that when you went out on a Friday night, you were really

out on a Friday night, you were really good at either being like the the bell

good at either being like the the bell of the ball and attracting people or you

of the ball and attracting people or you could somehow get to be more attractive

could somehow get to be more attractive to people or if you were in or you could

to people or if you were in or you could make someone fall in love with you or if

make someone fall in love with you or if you're in a long-term relationship with

you're in a long-term relationship with a struggling there was some pill that

a struggling there was some pill that would help that long-term relationship.

would help that long-term relationship. And we are kind of at that stage now

And we are kind of at that stage now with the neuroscience where that would

with the neuroscience where that would potentially be possible. And there are

potentially be possible. And there are certainly research groups who are

certainly research groups who are looking into what chemicals are already

looking into what chemicals are already out there which kind of mimic that

out there which kind of mimic that neurochemistry. Now there are two big

neurochemistry. Now there are two big ones that we already have. The first is

ones that we already have. The first is oxytocin. Of course oxytocin is

oxytocin. Of course oxytocin is synthesized. We use it in child birth.

synthesized. We use it in child birth. It induces child birth. Um, and in

It induces child birth. Um, and in studies where we wanted to work out the

studies where we wanted to work out the impact of oxytocin on social behavior in

impact of oxytocin on social behavior in humans in labs, we squirt it up people's

humans in labs, we squirt it up people's noses. You can squirt it up people's

noses. You can squirt it up people's noses and see what oxytocin and what it

noses and see what oxytocin and what it does if you want to know in most people

does if you want to know in most people is it makes them more empathetic. It

is it makes them more empathetic. It makes them more open to chatting to

makes them more open to chatting to people. It makes them more sociable. It

people. It makes them more sociable. It makes them more positive about the

makes them more positive about the people around them from a social

people around them from a social context. So brilliant. So one of the

context. So brilliant. So one of the possibilities is you produce synthetic

possibilities is you produce synthetic oxytocin and you sell it to people. And

oxytocin and you sell it to people. And in fact, a few years ago, and I think

in fact, a few years ago, and I think they've taken it down now, there was a

they've taken it down now, there was a drug on Amazon and eBay called Oxy Love.

drug on Amazon and eBay called Oxy Love. It's a little thing like a like an eye

It's a little thing like a like an eye drop thing. What it would do if you

drop thing. What it would do if you squirted up your nose is hopefully it

squirted up your nose is hopefully it would do what oxytocin does in the

would do what oxytocin does in the normal biological context. It would

normal biological context. It would quiet your amydala. It would make you

quiet your amydala. It would make you more confident. Uh it would make you

more confident. Uh it would make you feel more open to starting

feel more open to starting relationships. You'd be better at

relationships. You'd be better at chatting to people. So, it's it's kind

chatting to people. So, it's it's kind of like, you know, the you know, a

of like, you know, the you know, a couple of glasses of wine before you go

couple of glasses of wine before you go out. makes you feel a little bit more

out. makes you feel a little bit more confident. It would be a little bit like

confident. It would be a little bit like that. And that's one of the things

that. And that's one of the things they're looking into. The issue with it

they're looking into. The issue with it is that you cannot guarantee the outcome

is that you cannot guarantee the outcome of using it. So what has been found is

of using it. So what has been found is in the vast majority of people it does

in the vast majority of people it does what it should. But there is a

what it should. But there is a significant minority of people where it

significant minority of people where it does exactly the opposite and it

does exactly the opposite and it actually increases e basically what we

actually increases e basically what we call ethnosentrism, racism, bigotry.

call ethnosentrism, racism, bigotry. Because what happens is they become more

Because what happens is they become more tightly bonded to people they think are

tightly bonded to people they think are in their ingroup. But if they perceive

in their ingroup. But if they perceive you to be in their out group, they

you to be in their out group, they become more racist. So it makes you

become more racist. So it makes you identify more with what you perceive to

identify more with what you perceive to be your ingroup. Now until you can iron

be your ingroup. Now until you can iron that out, that is not a drug you can

that out, that is not a drug you can release onto the market because that is

release onto the market because that is not something you want to happen.

not something you want to happen. investigations seem to have shown that

investigations seem to have shown that it's something to do with genetics that

it's something to do with genetics that some people's oxytocin receptor gene is

some people's oxytocin receptor gene is slightly different and it's those people

slightly different and it's those people who will get the um ethnosentrism result

who will get the um ethnosentrism result rather than the socially confident

rather than the socially confident result. So that's a problem and you

result. So that's a problem and you can't go any further with oxytocin until

can't go any further with oxytocin until you are now that particular problem. The

you are now that particular problem. The second one which is more encouraging

second one which is more encouraging from a from a scientific point of view

from a from a scientific point of view is MDMA, ecstasy. And for many years,

is MDMA, ecstasy. And for many years, people have, you know, anecdotally

people have, you know, anecdotally reported who use ecstasy recreationally

reported who use ecstasy recreationally that it makes you feel overwhelming

that it makes you feel overwhelming sensations of love. It makes you feel

sensations of love. It makes you feel very bonded to everybody you're with. We

very bonded to everybody you're with. We know from from lab studies that people

know from from lab studies that people who take ecstasy on a regular basis

who take ecstasy on a regular basis actually become more empathetic over

actually become more empathetic over time. It actually seems to permanently

time. It actually seems to permanently alter something. So, it seems to be

alter something. So, it seems to be possibly something a bit like beach

possibly something a bit like beach endorphin, which it underpins long-term

endorphin, which it underpins long-term love. Great. So they're engineering MDMA

love. Great. So they're engineering MDMA at the moment to try and find out what

at the moment to try and find out what the dosage should be and how we could

the dosage should be and how we could give it to people. And it's being used

give it to people. And it's being used in marriage therapy in the US at the

in marriage therapy in the US at the moment as a trial to see if it can

moment as a trial to see if it can assist in marriage therapy because a lot

assist in marriage therapy because a lot of people who go to marriage therapy are

of people who go to marriage therapy are very entrenched in their position.

very entrenched in their position. They've lost empathy. They've lost the

They've lost empathy. They've lost the ability to see the other point of view.

ability to see the other point of view. And so if you micro dose ecstasy, which

And so if you micro dose ecstasy, which I don't suggest anybody does without

I don't suggest anybody does without clinical support, you go into the

clinical support, you go into the session, it opens up your empathy and

session, it opens up your empathy and you make progress because of it. And

you make progress because of it. And there's been reasonably good results

there's been reasonably good results from marriage therapy in a clinical

from marriage therapy in a clinical setting. The issue with MDMA isn't that

setting. The issue with MDMA isn't that it has different outcomes for people to

it has different outcomes for people to be honest. Some people it works on some

be honest. Some people it works on some people it just doesn't. So you could

people it just doesn't. So you could take it for that reason and it just

take it for that reason and it just wouldn't do what it's supposed to do.

wouldn't do what it's supposed to do. Fine. The issue with MDMA is more around

Fine. The issue with MDMA is more around ethics

ethics because MDMA is a powerful drug and we

because MDMA is a powerful drug and we don't know yet what its long-term

don't know yet what its long-term consequences would be. For example, if

consequences would be. For example, if you did take it for many, many years.

you did take it for many, many years. The second thing we don't really know is

The second thing we don't really know is what happens if you stop. So let's say

what happens if you stop. So let's say you started a relationship taking MDMA.

you started a relationship taking MDMA. Um first ethical question, should you

Um first ethical question, should you tell the person you're in the

tell the person you're in the relationship with? Secondly, what

relationship with? Secondly, what happens if you stop? You get to the

happens if you stop? You get to the point where for whatever reason you

point where for whatever reason you decide to stop. Is that love going to go

decide to stop. Is that love going to go away? And again, if you haven't told the

away? And again, if you haven't told the person, you're kind of, if it does go

person, you're kind of, if it does go away, mcking around with their life

away, mcking around with their life without them actually realizing that

without them actually realizing that that relationship was based upon an

that relationship was based upon an artificial stimulant. essentially we

artificial stimulant. essentially we have anecdotal um we don't actually know

have anecdotal um we don't actually know whether it would stop because we haven't

whether it would stop because we haven't done long-term enough studies

done long-term enough studies anecdotally from the recreational

anecdotally from the recreational community there have been stories about

community there have been stories about people who have started relationships

people who have started relationships whilst clubbing uh taking ecstasy

whilst clubbing uh taking ecstasy particularly one guy who um used to go

particularly one guy who um used to go back to his hometown every weekend take

back to his hometown every weekend take ecstasy go clubbing met a girl but used

ecstasy go clubbing met a girl but used to go away to work during the week so

to go away to work during the week so every time he saw his girlfriend in the

every time he saw his girlfriend in the first few months it was at the weekend

first few months it was at the weekend they were both he he was on she wasn't

they were both he he was on she wasn't and he fell fell in love with her and

and he fell fell in love with her and this was wonderful and they carried on

this was wonderful and they carried on and eventually they decided that

and eventually they decided that actually no we need to stop this long

actually no we need to stop this long distance thing she needs to move and and

distance thing she needs to move and and come with me we think this has got a

come with me we think this has got a future she does that trouble is during

future she does that trouble is during the week he's not allowed on ecstasy and

the week he's not allowed on ecstasy and quite quickly he realizes he doesn't

quite quickly he realizes he doesn't love her now he has uplifted you know

love her now he has uplifted you know upheaval of her whole life now he didn't

upheaval of her whole life now he didn't do that on purpose he did not know that

do that on purpose he did not know that that was what the impact would be but if

that was what the impact would be but if that's the impact of a love drug we have

that's the impact of a love drug we have a problem what do you do in

a problem what do you do in relationships with power imbalances is

relationships with power imbalances is what if you're in an abusive

what if you're in an abusive relationship and somebody gives it you

relationship and somebody gives it you without you knowing and keeps you in

without you knowing and keeps you in that relationship because of it. So

that relationship because of it. So there are lots of ethical questions. I

there are lots of ethical questions. I think the issue with love drugs is they

think the issue with love drugs is they will probably come because they will be

will probably come because they will be hugely commercially successful if they

hugely commercially successful if they if they get a commercial license. When I

if they get a commercial license. When I do talks and I get to this bit before

do talks and I get to this bit before I've even mentioned what I I ask people

I've even mentioned what I I ask people to raise their hand and say if a drug

to raise their hand and say if a drug could do this would you take it? 50% of

could do this would you take it? 50% of the audience raise their hand and say

the audience raise their hand and say yes I would. So then you tell them what

yes I would. So then you tell them what all the problems are and you tell them

all the problems are and you tell them what the ethics might be and at the end

what the ethics might be and at the end I say again would you take it at least

I say again would you take it at least sell 20% of the audience would. Now

sell 20% of the audience would. Now because love and dating is such a

because love and dating is such a multi-billion dollar industry

multi-billion dollar industry if we get to the point where this can be

if we get to the point where this can be commercially produced someone is going

commercially produced someone is going to make a lot of money and that's why I

to make a lot of money and that's why I think it's probably on the horizon

think it's probably on the horizon unless the rules are so strict that it's

unless the rules are so strict that it's only in clinical settings and even then

only in clinical settings and even then people get around rules. So that's the

people get around rules. So that's the issue with love drugs. Um the other one

issue with love drugs. Um the other one is the SSRIs which are depress for

is the SSRIs which are depress for depression. People who are on SSRIs

depression. People who are on SSRIs realize that they um they reduce your

realize that they um they reduce your emotional abilities. They reduce your

emotional abilities. They reduce your libido. They reduce sensations of love.

libido. They reduce sensations of love. And so it has been suggested again that

And so it has been suggested again that SSRIs are engineered in some way to help

SSRIs are engineered in some way to help people deal with love trauma. So people

people deal with love trauma. So people who have experienced very bad

who have experienced very bad relationships and not that you can

relationships and not that you can forget it. Do you remember the filter

forget it. Do you remember the filter eternal sunshine? I didn't say that.

eternal sunshine? I didn't say that. Right. Okay. It's about a guy who wants

Right. Okay. It's about a guy who wants to wipe his brain in terms of a really

to wipe his brain in terms of a really bad relationship. And that's kind of

bad relationship. And that's kind of what suggested this could do. SSRIs

what suggested this could do. SSRIs can't do that. You cannot wipe a memory,

can't do that. You cannot wipe a memory, but they could maybe take away some of

but they could maybe take away some of the salience, some of the negative

the salience, some of the negative salants. The issue again with that is

salants. The issue again with that is that there are 72 countries in the world

that there are 72 countries in the world where homosexuality is still illegal.

where homosexuality is still illegal. And we know there are certain uh this

And we know there are certain uh this was a brilliant book called love drugs

was a brilliant book called love drugs talked about a very extreme religious

talked about a very extreme religious community which was giving young men who

community which was giving young men who had had shown homosexual tendencies

had had shown homosexual tendencies SSRIs to reduce their homosexual

SSRIs to reduce their homosexual tendencies and that in itself is I

tendencies and that in itself is I believe ethically unacceptable and

believe ethically unacceptable and therefore again we've got to be aware

therefore again we've got to be aware that if we produce drugs what could they

that if we produce drugs what could they possibly be used for which is actually

possibly be used for which is actually unacceptable and how are we going to

unacceptable and how are we going to deal with that as a as a population. So

deal with that as a as a population. So I think anything which comes into our

I think anything which comes into our intimate relationships like love drugs

intimate relationships like love drugs or AI or whatever, we have to have that

or AI or whatever, we have to have that conversation now because getting it

conversation now because getting it wrong has profound impacts on our

wrong has profound impacts on our futures and on our health.

futures and on our health. Let's talk about attachment styles and

Let's talk about attachment styles and monogamy and the neurodiversity

monogamy and the neurodiversity components of this. So if we start with

components of this. So if we start with attachment styles, there's been so much

attachment styles, there's been so much said about attachment styles. Can you

said about attachment styles. Can you sort of give my viewers a overview of

sort of give my viewers a overview of what attachment styles are and what we

what attachment styles are and what we need to know about attachment styles as

need to know about attachment styles as it relates to falling and holding on to

it relates to falling and holding on to love? Okay. I think the first thing you

love? Okay. I think the first thing you need to understand is what is an

need to understand is what is an attachment relationship? Attachment

attachment relationship? Attachment relationships are very rare in your

relationships are very rare in your life. Um, you will have had them with

life. Um, you will have had them with whoever brought you up, whoever cared

whoever brought you up, whoever cared for you, particularly in the first two

for you, particularly in the first two years of life. That's particularly

years of life. That's particularly significant. You will have them with

significant. You will have them with romantic partners. They're not all

romantic partners. They're not all romantic partners. And you might have

romantic partners. And you might have one with a best friend. They're very

one with a best friend. They're very emotionally intense. We recognize them

emotionally intense. We recognize them for several criteria. First of all,

for several criteria. First of all, they're developmentally significant. So,

they're developmentally significant. So, attachment relationships have the

attachment relationships have the ability to change your psychology. Now,

ability to change your psychology. Now, as a child, they actually have the

as a child, they actually have the ability to change your your actual brain

ability to change your your actual brain architecture as well, particularly in

architecture as well, particularly in those first two years because babies are

those first two years because babies are born without their brains fully

born without their brains fully developed. That's why they're so

developed. That's why they're so helpless. And in the first two years,

helpless. And in the first two years, your brain is growing very rapidly. and

your brain is growing very rapidly. and the environment to which you are raised

the environment to which you are raised is going to fundamentally underpin the

is going to fundamentally underpin the architecture of your brain. So that's

architecture of your brain. So that's developmentally very significant. That

developmentally very significant. That first attachment relationship you have

first attachment relationship you have with your parents, parents, carers,

with your parents, parents, carers, whoever it has, whoever's bringing you

whoever it has, whoever's bringing you up. Babies will attach to literally

up. Babies will attach to literally anybody who's meeting their needs to be

anybody who's meeting their needs to be honest. Um and that will fundamentally

honest. Um and that will fundamentally alter your brain and either in a good

alter your brain and either in a good way or unfortunately in a less good way

way or unfortunately in a less good way depending on how you're brought up. When

depending on how you're brought up. When you have a romantic relationship, what

you have a romantic relationship, what they can do is they can alter your

they can do is they can alter your psychology, particularly how anxious you

psychology, particularly how anxious you are about being abandoned in that

are about being abandoned in that relationship and how comfortable you are

relationship and how comfortable you are with emotional and physical intimacy.

with emotional and physical intimacy. Because I will tell you a story when I

Because I will tell you a story when I met my husband, I was very worried about

met my husband, I was very worried about him leaving me, him abandoning me. And I

him leaving me, him abandoning me. And I dealt with that by being monumentally

dealt with that by being monumentally clingy. And over time, we've been

clingy. And over time, we've been married for nearly 25 years. I became

married for nearly 25 years. I became secure because he disproved my fear that

secure because he disproved my fear that he was going to leave and I am now

he was going to leave and I am now secure. So he fundamentally changed my

secure. So he fundamentally changed my psychology. So they can do that and in

psychology. So they can do that and in romantic relationships there are four

romantic relationships there are four types of attachment relationship and we

types of attachment relationship and we place you in one of those sectors based

place you in one of those sectors based upon two different factors. The first is

upon two different factors. The first is how anxious you are about abandonment.

how anxious you are about abandonment. Okay, that's the first one. We ask you

Okay, that's the first one. We ask you lots of questions to work out how

lots of questions to work out how anxious you are about that. The second

anxious you are about that. The second one is how much you want to maintain

one is how much you want to maintain proximity. So again, we'll ask you

proximity. So again, we'll ask you questions about how close you like to be

questions about how close you like to be to the person, whether you maintain

to the person, whether you maintain closeness because you're anxious, or

closeness because you're anxious, or whether you maintain closeness because

whether you maintain closeness because you love intimacy, or whether you run

you love intimacy, or whether you run away from intimacy at a rate of not. And

away from intimacy at a rate of not. And depending on how you answer, we put you

depending on how you answer, we put you in one of four categories. So if you are

in one of four categories. So if you are not anxious in relationships about

not anxious in relationships about abandonment, but you are very

abandonment, but you are very comfortable with proximity, emotional,

comfortable with proximity, emotional, physical intimacy, then you're secure.

physical intimacy, then you're secure. And it's what it sounds like. you are

And it's what it sounds like. you are very comfortable in your individuality.

very comfortable in your individuality. You gain huge benefits from being in

You gain huge benefits from being in that relationship but you don't need

that relationship but you don't need that relationship to exist to define

that relationship to exist to define you. The next one is people who are

you. The next one is people who are highly anxious about abandonment and

highly anxious about abandonment and crave proximity and that was me

crave proximity and that was me preoccupied. So they are very anxious

preoccupied. So they are very anxious about being left and the way they deal

about being left and the way they deal with it like I did was to cling to to

with it like I did was to cling to to maintain because if I keep an eye on you

maintain because if I keep an eye on you it's going to be okay. Then we have the

it's going to be okay. Then we have the two um avoidant attachment styles. So

two um avoidant attachment styles. So first of all, we have people who are

first of all, we have people who are very anxious about being abandoned but

very anxious about being abandoned but don't maintain proximity. They find

don't maintain proximity. They find intimacy very uncomfortable. And the

intimacy very uncomfortable. And the reason for that, they're known as

reason for that, they're known as fearful avoidant people. And the reason

fearful avoidant people. And the reason they do that is the way they cope with

they do that is the way they cope with the stress of possibly being left is

the stress of possibly being left is they just don't have relationships

they just don't have relationships because then I can't be hurt if you do

because then I can't be hurt if you do that. And finally, we have dismissing

that. And finally, we have dismissing avoidant. dismissing avoidant people are

avoidant. dismissing avoidant people are the smallest part of the population

the smallest part of the population generally and they um aren't worried

generally and they um aren't worried about abandonment but they also don't

about abandonment but they also don't like proximity to be honest they're

like proximity to be honest they're islands they're not that bothered about

islands they're not that bothered about being in a relationship and one of the

being in a relationship and one of the drivers for that might be that they're

drivers for that might be that they're not very comfortable with intimacy but

not very comfortable with intimacy but some people literally just not bothered

some people literally just not bothered can you be shades so could you could you

can you be shades so could you could you is you know the avoidant category does

is you know the avoidant category does that exist on a spectrum and the yes it

that exist on a spectrum and the yes it does the reason I mean all attachments

does the reason I mean all attachments are a spectrum the reason Why we

are a spectrum the reason Why we categorize them is typical scientists we

categorize them is typical scientists we like a category because when we've got a

like a category because when we've got a category we can do data analysis and we

category we can do data analysis and we can decide the sorts of behaviors for

can decide the sorts of behaviors for example that these four quarters perform

example that these four quarters perform or we can put somebody in one and help

or we can put somebody in one and help them change to another for example. Do

them change to another for example. Do you think the way that modern society is

you think the way that modern society is is breeding a certain group of

is breeding a certain group of attachment styles? Do you understand the

attachment styles? Do you understand the question what I'm trying to I do. I

question what I'm trying to I do. I think

think we are getting less comfortable with

we are getting less comfortable with intimacy

intimacy and I think that's partly because we are

and I think that's partly because we are not as practiced at it as we used to be

not as practiced at it as we used to be because we are not as we're not forced

because we are not as we're not forced to be in close contact with a lot of

to be in close contact with a lot of people as much as we used to be. You can

people as much as we used to be. You can pretty much do everything from your

pretty much do everything from your sofa. You can work from your sofa. You

sofa. You can work from your sofa. You can order food from your sofa. You can

can order food from your sofa. You can try and maintain your relationships with

try and maintain your relationships with your friends from your sofa. You don't

your friends from your sofa. You don't actually have to be in a room with

actually have to be in a room with anyone. after COVID there's a lot of

anyone. after COVID there's a lot of data showing that people found it people

data showing that people found it people are much less interested now in meeting

are much less interested now in meeting up they kind of got used to being in

up they kind of got used to being in that little bubble and even though they

that little bubble and even though they had the yearning of I don't have anyone

had the yearning of I don't have anyone with me they become much they became

with me they become much they became much more anxious about going out and

much more anxious about going out and actually seeing anybody and it wasn't

actually seeing anybody and it wasn't just because they were worried about

just because they were worried about COVID we got out of the habit and if you

COVID we got out of the habit and if you get out of the habit you don't get any

get out of the habit you don't get any of the chemicals which encourage you to

of the chemicals which encourage you to go out you certainly don't get any of

go out you certainly don't get any of the addictive chemicals like

the addictive chemicals like betaendorphine so you kind of go a bit

betaendorphine so you kind of go a bit cold turkey Turkey slowly and you just

cold turkey Turkey slowly and you just don't have that draw to go and see

don't have that draw to go and see people anymore from a biological point

people anymore from a biological point of view and from a psychological point

of view and from a psychological point of view it becomes a little bit scary.

of view it becomes a little bit scary. So you just stay where you are. So I

So you just stay where you are. So I think we are seeing more avoidant

think we are seeing more avoidant behaviors in people than we used to. You

behaviors in people than we used to. You talked about the role of dopamine in

talked about the role of dopamine in getting us to like you know get up and

getting us to like you know get up and put our shoes on and get out the house.

put our shoes on and get out the house. And obviously there's lots of things now

And obviously there's lots of things now at home that are giving us dopamine

at home that are giving us dopamine whether it's social media or it's

whether it's social media or it's pornography or if it's uh I guess you

pornography or if it's uh I guess you know there's other substances that give

know there's other substances that give us dopamine and I wondered if that's if

us dopamine and I wondered if that's if you thought that maybe that's playing a

you thought that maybe that's playing a role in I think that is playing a role

role in I think that is playing a role because we get that hit and dopamine is

because we get that hit and dopamine is nice. It gives you a reward. The problem

nice. It gives you a reward. The problem it has is on its own it has no bearing

it has is on its own it has no bearing on social relationships or social

on social relationships or social behavior. You need to have the full

behavior. You need to have the full cocktail. So that's what I say to people

cocktail. So that's what I say to people about social media when they say you

about social media when they say you know but I'm getting a dopamine hit.

know but I'm getting a dopamine hit. It's like, yeah, you are, and that's

It's like, yeah, you are, and that's great, but dopamine is very

great, but dopamine is very shortlasting. On its own, it doesn't

shortlasting. On its own, it doesn't underpin your immune system or your

underpin your immune system or your health in any way. You need the full

health in any way. You need the full lot. You need the full four social

lot. You need the full four social chemicals to get any advantage out of

chemicals to get any advantage out of it. So, that is the problem. And I think

it. So, that is the problem. And I think people because we've heard a lot about

people because we've heard a lot about dopamine think that that dopamine alone

dopamine think that that dopamine alone is going to make you happy and it's not.

is going to make you happy and it's not. You know, earlier we talked about these

You know, earlier we talked about these people that go on 100 dates and maybe

people that go on 100 dates and maybe they don't have the true intention to

they don't have the true intention to actually form a relationship.

actually form a relationship. Speaking sort of broadly, what what

Speaking sort of broadly, what what attachment style do you think those kind

attachment style do you think those kind of people fit into? Those people are are

of people fit into? Those people are are avoidance. So they're either dismissing

avoidance. So they're either dismissing avoidant, which means um they don't have

avoidant, which means um they don't have any of the anxiety associated with

any of the anxiety associated with relationships, or they're fearful

relationships, or they're fearful avoidance. So they they they avoid them

avoidance. So they they they avoid them because they're scared of being hurt. So

because they're scared of being hurt. So when people talk about daddy issues or I

when people talk about daddy issues or I guess you could say mommy issues where

guess you could say mommy issues where the father has

the father has abandoned

abandoned that child at an early age.

that child at an early age. Do do you think generally those people

Do do you think generally those people have a higher probability of being

have a higher probability of being fearful avoidant? They certainly have a

fearful avoidant? They certainly have a higher probability of having an insecure

higher probability of having an insecure attachment style because as I mentioned

attachment style because as I mentioned in the first two years of life when your

in the first two years of life when your brain is growing the environment in

brain is growing the environment in which you're being cared for is going to

which you're being cared for is going to shape that brain. Particularly if for

shape that brain. Particularly if for example a parent leaves during that time

example a parent leaves during that time or even later on when it's still quite a

or even later on when it's still quite a sensitive brain that's going to impact

sensitive brain that's going to impact how your brain grows particularly in

how your brain grows particularly in that prefrontal cortex. So the bit right

that prefrontal cortex. So the bit right at the front here okay where all your

at the front here okay where all your social cognition is and it's going to

social cognition is and it's going to have less gray and white matter in that

have less gray and white matter in that area. Uh it's going to have less density

area. Uh it's going to have less density of neurons and less of a high level of

of neurons and less of a high level of neurochemistry which underpins social

neurochemistry which underpins social behavior. And because of that, when

behavior. And because of that, when you're an adult, you're just not as

you're an adult, you're just not as equipped to be good at relationships

equipped to be good at relationships because your brain, you don't actually

because your brain, you don't actually have the brain architecture to underpin

have the brain architecture to underpin it. So that's one of the reasons why we

it. So that's one of the reasons why we see people who grow up in that

see people who grow up in that environment being more insecure because

environment being more insecure because they don't have the brain architecture

they don't have the brain architecture or indeed the neurochemical the baseline

or indeed the neurochemical the baseline neurochemical levels circulating in

neurochemical levels circulating in their body which is going to motivate

their body which is going to motivate and reward them for starting

and reward them for starting relationships. So they just don't have

relationships. So they just don't have the equipment that people who maybe grew

the equipment that people who maybe grew up in a secure environment do. So that's

up in a secure environment do. So that's one of the problems. And so when people

one of the problems. And so when people say daddy issues, partly what they're

say daddy issues, partly what they're talking about is attachment style. It's

talking about is attachment style. It's the fact that I have this attachment

the fact that I have this attachment style and I've identified I have this

style and I've identified I have this attachment style because my father left

attachment style because my father left whenever I when I was however old. Now

whenever I when I was however old. Now whether that's the entire reason, there

whether that's the entire reason, there are other reasons why people um behave

are other reasons why people um behave the way they do and might not want

the way they do and might not want relationships. There are genetic

relationships. There are genetic reasons. So there are lots of reasons

reasons. So there are lots of reasons why attachment styles can change. Oh,

why attachment styles can change. Oh, completely. And the way that they change

completely. And the way that they change is is it accurate to say someone gives

is is it accurate to say someone gives you evidence that counteracts that's one

you evidence that counteracts that's one of the ways and in one sense that's the

of the ways and in one sense that's the easiest way because in a way I didn't

easiest way because in a way I didn't know it was happening. I this happened

know it was happening. I this happened long before I studied attachment styles.

long before I studied attachment styles. I think I was still chasing monkeys at

I think I was still chasing monkeys at this point but um

this point but um so that's the easiest way is literally

so that's the easiest way is literally you end up with someone who's secure and

you end up with someone who's secure and over time they just get into your brain

over time they just get into your brain and they show you you are wrong. Other

and they show you you are wrong. Other ways are being conscious about what your

ways are being conscious about what your attachment style is and being conscious

attachment style is and being conscious about how it doesn't work for you. There

about how it doesn't work for you. There is no wrong attachment style. That's

is no wrong attachment style. That's what I want to say. If it if you feel

what I want to say. If it if you feel comfortable in your attachment style,

comfortable in your attachment style, brilliant. That's great. It's when it

brilliant. That's great. It's when it doesn't work for you that there's a

doesn't work for you that there's a problem. And so there I always think

problem. And so there I always think everyone should kind of keep an eye on

everyone should kind of keep an eye on what their attachment style is. Um I

what their attachment style is. Um I think it's quite an important thing to

think it's quite an important thing to to to realize if you see yourself, for

to to realize if you see yourself, for example, repeating the same things over

example, repeating the same things over and over again in relationships. So it

and over again in relationships. So it gets to a certain point and you le it

gets to a certain point and you le it for example it's all getting a bit

for example it's all getting a bit intense I'm now going to run away or you

intense I'm now going to run away or you always end up pushing people away for

always end up pushing people away for example maybe because you're too

example maybe because you're too preoccupied or whatever and it's good if

preoccupied or whatever and it's good if you see that pattern if you are

you see that pattern if you are conscious enough to rec recognize that

conscious enough to rec recognize that pattern then you can do work on yourself

pattern then you can do work on yourself or you can ask your friends to help you

or you can ask your friends to help you okay if you see me do this you need to

okay if you see me do this you need to flag it you need to tell me you're doing

flag it you need to tell me you're doing it again you need to step beyond that

it again you need to step beyond that and it will need support you'll need

and it will need support you'll need emotional support either just from

emotional support either just from friends and family or you might need

friends and family or you might need professional help there are attachment

professional help there are attachment counselors who will help you or

counselors who will help you or understand where your attachment style

understand where your attachment style came from and they will help you do the

came from and they will help you do the work, okay, to shift. So, you can do it

work, okay, to shift. So, you can do it that way. Uh, and then obviously at the

that way. Uh, and then obviously at the very extreme end of attachment disorders

very extreme end of attachment disorders and they always need input from a

and they always need input from a professional. One of the things that I

professional. One of the things that I found to be particularly useful is

found to be particularly useful is vocalizing my attachment style to my

vocalizing my attachment style to my partner and her doing the same back so

partner and her doing the same back so that we can both kind of hold understand

that we can both kind of hold understand the other person even though it might

the other person even though it might not be us and we don't understand that

not be us and we don't understand that clingy behavior or that avoidant

clingy behavior or that avoidant behavior. vocalizing it in the way that

behavior. vocalizing it in the way that you've said, not not just becoming

you've said, not not just becoming self-aware, but like mutually aware has

self-aware, but like mutually aware has really helped us because I can now

really helped us because I can now understand her behavior. She's she's

understand her behavior. She's she's much more on the

much more on the I don't want to say clingy, but she

I don't want to say clingy, but she needs that sort of reassurance and of my

needs that sort of reassurance and of my presence and Yes. And now behavior that

presence and Yes. And now behavior that I might have thought in the past was a

I might have thought in the past was a bit irrational, I now understand more

bit irrational, I now understand more contextually. Yeah. And therefore, I'm

contextually. Yeah. And therefore, I'm able to be more empathetic and more and

able to be more empathetic and more and that's really important. It's really

that's really important. It's really important to do that because you know we

important to do that because you know we all attach in different ways and by

all attach in different ways and by understanding that it helps you as you

understanding that it helps you as you say if someone's really clingy it can

say if someone's really clingy it can feel quite claustrophobic but if you

feel quite claustrophobic but if you understand actually that's especially if

understand actually that's especially if you're avoidant it's like triggering

you're avoidant it's like triggering well it's really triggering and that's

well it's really triggering and that's what we know we know there are certain

what we know we know there are certain attachment styles that work better

attachment styles that work better together than others. So we know

together than others. So we know particularly a dismissing avoidant

particularly a dismissing avoidant person with a preoccupied person. Yeah.

person with a preoccupied person. Yeah. That's really tricky to keep going. that

That's really tricky to keep going. that is that is a long-term relationship

is that is a long-term relationship which is if it can carry on is going to

which is if it can carry on is going to be very hard work and probably quite uh

be very hard work and probably quite uh roller coastery I would say whereas you

roller coastery I would say whereas you know if any of the of the insecure so

know if any of the of the insecure so I'm doing this because it's a grid any

I'm doing this because it's a grid any of the insecure attachment styles if you

of the insecure attachment styles if you can find yourself somewhere insecure

can find yourself somewhere insecure brilliant secure people are amazing

brilliant secure people are amazing because they will absorb all that stuff

because they will absorb all that stuff because they're so secure in themselves

because they're so secure in themselves whether you're clingy whether you're

whether you're clingy whether you're pushing them away they absorb it and

pushing them away they absorb it and they're good at it preoccupied and

they're good at it preoccupied and fearful avoidant that works quite well

fearful avoidant that works quite well in one sense because the preoccupied

in one sense because the preoccupied person wants to stick with the fearful

person wants to stick with the fearful avoidant person and the thing that's

avoidant person and the thing that's really really troubling the fearful

really really troubling the fearful avoidant person is you're going to

avoidant person is you're going to leave. So if you literally sit on top of

leave. So if you literally sit on top of them which is what you're doing if

them which is what you're doing if you're preoccupied then that's great in

you're preoccupied then that's great in one sense because they will think oh

one sense because they will think oh okay they're literally not going

okay they're literally not going anywhere because they're there all the

anywhere because they're there all the time. Um so there are partnerships that

time. Um so there are partnerships that work better and I do I agree with you. I

work better and I do I agree with you. I think it's good to be aware of what each

think it's good to be aware of what each of within a partnership is because then

of within a partnership is because then you can understand some of the quirks

you can understand some of the quirks and behavior. you can understand some of

and behavior. you can understand some of your reactions to that behavior.

your reactions to that behavior. Neurodeiversity.

Neurodeiversity. In the last couple of weeks, I was

In the last couple of weeks, I was thinking, it might be my attachment

thinking, it might be my attachment style, but it also might be the fact

style, but it also might be the fact that I was diagnosed with ADHD, which

that I was diagnosed with ADHD, which I'm not sure if I have, but I was

I'm not sure if I have, but I was diagnosed with it. Um, I was thinking

diagnosed with it. Um, I was thinking about how a neurodeiverse person might

about how a neurodeiverse person might struggle in love and holding on to

struggle in love and holding on to relationships because of their

relationships because of their neurodiversity. Before we started

neurodiversity. Before we started talking, you said that roughly, I think

talking, you said that roughly, I think 25% of the population are classified as

25% of the population are classified as neurodyiverse.

neurodyiverse. If I have ADHD or autism, how am I

If I have ADHD or autism, how am I likely or more likely to struggle in

likely or more likely to struggle in love? Firstly, because the big the

love? Firstly, because the big the biggie is that the neuroscience and

biggie is that the neuroscience and genetics of love are very like the neuro

genetics of love are very like the neuro the neuroscience and genetics of

the neuroscience and genetics of neurodeiversity. So the chemistry that

neurodeiversity. So the chemistry that underpins love is also implicated in

underpins love is also implicated in neurodeiversity.

neurodeiversity. Some of the areas of the brain which are

Some of the areas of the brain which are activated in love are also involved in

activated in love are also involved in neurodeiversity. And that is why

neurodeiversity. And that is why particularly with autism but also with

particularly with autism but also with ADHD the issues that that people who are

ADHD the issues that that people who are autistic or ADHD have express themselves

autistic or ADHD have express themselves a lot in the social sphere because it's

a lot in the social sphere because it's the same neurochemistry and genetics

the same neurochemistry and genetics essentially. So for example the oxytocin

essentially. So for example the oxytocin receptor gene which has 26 point

receptor gene which has 26 point mutations on it which impact your social

mutations on it which impact your social behavior um and and individual

behavior um and and individual differences in social behavior. A lot of

differences in social behavior. A lot of those are implicated also in autism.

those are implicated also in autism. Dopamine uh is implicated obviously in

Dopamine uh is implicated obviously in ADHD. Serotonin is implicated in ADHD.

ADHD. Serotonin is implicated in ADHD. Those are both chemicals which are

Those are both chemicals which are involved in in love, one of the

involved in in love, one of the neurochemicals of love. So there is some

neurochemicals of love. So there is some major crossovers between the two. There

major crossovers between the two. There are several reasons why neurodiversity

are several reasons why neurodiversity is difficult. For example, um the way

is difficult. For example, um the way the neurodeiverse brain works, things

the neurodeiverse brain works, things like executive function is different in

like executive function is different in people with neurodyiverse brains. What

people with neurodyiverse brains. What does that mean? Executive function is

does that mean? Executive function is things like attention, uh emotional

things like attention, uh emotional inhibition, and working memory. It's

inhibition, and working memory. It's kind of the set of skills that allow you

kind of the set of skills that allow you to operate within the world. Um that's

to operate within the world. Um that's implicate that's impacted in ADHD and in

implicate that's impacted in ADHD and in autism. The processing speeds and also

autism. The processing speeds and also the way that you process those

the way that you process those particular three elements is different.

particular three elements is different. For example, people with ADHD, their

For example, people with ADHD, their working memory generally isn't great.

working memory generally isn't great. They find it difficult to recall things

They find it difficult to recall things or hold on to things. Uh emotional

or hold on to things. Uh emotional regulation is difficult. So, for

regulation is difficult. So, for example, people with ADHD might build to

example, people with ADHD might build to anger quicker than people who don't have

anger quicker than people who don't have it. Um, people with autism tend to have

it. Um, people with autism tend to have quite extreme extremes of emotional

quite extreme extremes of emotional experience for example and all of that

experience for example and all of that is very difficult in a relationship

is very difficult in a relationship because if you live with someone who has

because if you live with someone who has extreme emotional reactions or gets very

extreme emotional reactions or gets very angry and conflicts very quickly that's

angry and conflicts very quickly that's tricky to deal with. We also know things

tricky to deal with. We also know things like sensory processing particularly in

like sensory processing particularly in autism is affected. So that has two

autism is affected. So that has two implications. First of all, when we're

implications. First of all, when we're using all that sensory information in

using all that sensory information in the attraction stage, so all that

the attraction stage, so all that sensory information that's going into

sensory information that's going into your limbic area, the sensory processing

your limbic area, the sensory processing speeds in people with autism tend to be

speeds in people with autism tend to be slower, but they also tend to be either

slower, but they also tend to be either hyper sensory, which means they feel all

hyper sensory, which means they feel all the senses very intensely, or they tend

the senses very intensely, or they tend to have different experiences sensors,

to have different experiences sensors, or they tend to have very low sensory

or they tend to have very low sensory experience. And all of that will impact,

experience. And all of that will impact, first of all, how that algorithm

first of all, how that algorithm operates in your brain. It will also

operates in your brain. It will also impact just simply things like the

impact just simply things like the environment in which you might go on a

environment in which you might go on a date. So most people want to go on a

date. So most people want to go on a date to a restaurant or a pub or a

date to a restaurant or a pub or a comedy club or wherever. For autistic

comedy club or wherever. For autistic people that's really hard

people that's really hard to deal with. We also know unfortunately

to deal with. We also know unfortunately the people who are neurodeiverse are

the people who are neurodeiverse are more likely to be in abusive

more likely to be in abusive relationships

relationships and there are reasons for that. If we

and there are reasons for that. If we look at ADHD, ADHD is um a dysfunction

look at ADHD, ADHD is um a dysfunction in the dopamine system in the brain. So

in the dopamine system in the brain. So what happens is you release dopamine but

what happens is you release dopamine but it's re it's taken back up into the

it's re it's taken back up into the brain before it has enough of an effect.

brain before it has enough of an effect. So what people with ADHD tend to do is

So what people with ADHD tend to do is they dopamine seek. They do activities

they dopamine seek. They do activities which give them a hit of dopamine. Um so

which give them a hit of dopamine. Um so you know I have my daughter I hope she

you know I have my daughter I hope she she should she doesn't mind my

she should she doesn't mind my daughter's ADHD autistic. Um her

daughter's ADHD autistic. Um her dopamine seeking is shopping. She

dopamine seeking is shopping. She dopamine sinks by shopping because you

dopamine sinks by shopping because you get a lovely dopamine hit when you do

get a lovely dopamine hit when you do it. But unfortunately start of

it. But unfortunately start of relationships is a dopamine C. You get

relationships is a dopamine C. You get lots of lovely dopamine in start of

lots of lovely dopamine in start of relationship. So what you'll tend to

relationship. So what you'll tend to find with ADHD people is they will go

find with ADHD people is they will go into relationships really quickly

into relationships really quickly without really considering is this

without really considering is this person right for me. So there's there's

person right for me. So there's there's that impulsivity that comes with ADHD as

that impulsivity that comes with ADHD as well because they're getting that hit of

well because they're getting that hit of dopamine at the start. We also know that

dopamine at the start. We also know that for example if you are neurodeiverse you

for example if you are neurodeiverse you tend to mask a lot. You've got used to

tend to mask a lot. You've got used to in life masking to fit in with the

in life masking to fit in with the neurotypical world. What's masking?

neurotypical world. What's masking? Masking is knowing the rules of the

Masking is knowing the rules of the neurotypical world. So for example,

neurotypical world. So for example, autistic girls, the reason why autistic

autistic girls, the reason why autistic girls tend to be diagnosed later is they

girls tend to be diagnosed later is they become very good at learning the social

become very good at learning the social rules. So all those things that they

rules. So all those things that they would naturally want to do in a social

would naturally want to do in a social situation, you know, be mute or not

situation, you know, be mute or not reciprocate properly or, you know, not

reciprocate properly or, you know, not say the right thing, they learn what the

say the right thing, they learn what the rules are. It's why they burn out

rules are. It's why they burn out generally is because they've spent their

generally is because they've spent their whole childhood studying it and going,

whole childhood studying it and going, "Okay, so in that circumstance I do this

"Okay, so in that circumstance I do this and in that circumstance I do this." And

and in that circumstance I do this." And they hide the autism. Now, so not only

they hide the autism. Now, so not only is that incredibly stressful, but if

is that incredibly stressful, but if you've got used to in life denying who

you've got used to in life denying who you are, if you go into a relationship

you are, if you go into a relationship with someone, particularly if they're

with someone, particularly if they're particularly dominant or they're

particularly dominant or they're abusive, you carry on denying who you

abusive, you carry on denying who you are, denying that you have a right, for

are, denying that you have a right, for example, to be with someone who's kind.

example, to be with someone who's kind. Mhm. Deny, you know, deny the fact that

Mhm. Deny, you know, deny the fact that you have needs. And so, we know that

you have needs. And so, we know that people who mask find it much much harder

people who mask find it much much harder to express what they want in a

to express what they want in a relationship. So it is it is really

relationship. So it is it is really incredibly tricky I think and you know

incredibly tricky I think and you know we also have issues with empathy for

we also have issues with empathy for example there's a myth particularly

example there's a myth particularly autistic people don't empathize that's

autistic people don't empathize that's not true it's unfortunately still in the

not true it's unfortunately still in the diagnostic criteria and it shouldn't be

diagnostic criteria and it shouldn't be the issue is is that um they empathize

the issue is is that um they empathize in a different way and um so either they

in a different way and um so either they are actually hypermpaths

are actually hypermpaths which means that they feel the other

which means that they feel the other person's emotions so strongly that they

person's emotions so strongly that they shut down and so they don't actually

shut down and so they don't actually respond to the person because they can't

respond to the person because they can't cope with the extreme emotional overload

cope with the extreme emotional overload they've had. Or the other reason is they

they've had. Or the other reason is they do empathize, but they empathize with a

do empathize, but they empathize with a neurodeiverse brain. And there's been a

neurodeiverse brain. And there's been a recent study looking at this and saying

recent study looking at this and saying actually if you put two new

actually if you put two new neurodyiverse people together and ask

neurodyiverse people together and ask them to empathize with each other,

them to empathize with each other, they're brilliant. Two neurotypical

they're brilliant. Two neurotypical people together, ask them brilliant. Ask

people together, ask them brilliant. Ask a neurodyiverse person and a

a neurodyiverse person and a neurotypical person to empath they it's

neurotypical person to empath they it's hard because the brain operates in a

hard because the brain operates in a different way. So empathy is the basis

different way. So empathy is the basis of of relationships. So if you um are in

of of relationships. So if you um are in a mixed relationship, neurotypical and

a mixed relationship, neurotypical and neurodyiverse, that can be tricky

neurodyiverse, that can be tricky because it can be very hard to empathize

because it can be very hard to empathize with the other person and know what

with the other person and know what their emotional needs are.

their emotional needs are. On this point then if if we accept that

On this point then if if we accept that people with ADHD, I've been diagnosed

people with ADHD, I've been diagnosed with ADHD so everything I say is within

with ADHD so everything I say is within that context. um have higher impulsivity

that context. um have higher impulsivity and they have higher novelty seek

and they have higher novelty seek seeking behavior, novelty seeeking

seeking behavior, novelty seeeking behavior and they have struggles with

behavior and they have struggles with emotional

emotional regulation. Yes. And they have some

regulation. Yes. And they have some executive function which is going to

executive function which is going to impair their ability to think about sort

impair their ability to think about sort of like the stakes and foresight and all

of like the stakes and foresight and all these things.

these things. Does that mean that people with ADHD are

Does that mean that people with ADHD are more likely to cheat on you? There's

more likely to cheat on you? There's actually a study which um looked at this

actually a study which um looked at this in 2015. It suggested that adults with

in 2015. It suggested that adults with ADHD were more likely to report

ADHD were more likely to report infidelity than nonADHD peers.

infidelity than nonADHD peers. However, the effect size was not

However, the effect size was not overwhelming. Yes, I I'm always wary of

overwhelming. Yes, I I'm always wary of studies like that because first of all,

studies like that because first of all, if the effect size is not overwhelming,

if the effect size is not overwhelming, I think we have to be very careful of

I think we have to be very careful of labeling neurodyiverse people as the

labeling neurodyiverse people as the problem in a relationship. Um, and I'm

problem in a relationship. Um, and I'm very aware of that. I do a lot of

very aware of that. I do a lot of training on this particularly for

training on this particularly for therapists. And I think we need to be

therapists. And I think we need to be aware that all relationships are a

aware that all relationships are a interaction between two people and they

interaction between two people and they will each bring their issues. And I

will each bring their issues. And I think the labeling of people with

think the labeling of people with neurodiversity as the problem is is not

neurodiversity as the problem is is not on. We all whether we're neurodyiverse

on. We all whether we're neurodyiverse or not have to learn to adapt to the

or not have to learn to adapt to the other person. And we have to educate

other person. And we have to educate ourselves about how their brain works,

ourselves about how their brain works, attachment, whatever it might be. And

attachment, whatever it might be. And therefore, I need think we need to be

therefore, I need think we need to be careful. I think with ADHD, what we do

careful. I think with ADHD, what we do know is people with ADHD are more likely

know is people with ADHD are more likely to have many more short-term

to have many more short-term relationships because they get bored

relationships because they get bored quite easily. They are also much more

quite easily. They are also much more likely to undertake risky sexual

likely to undertake risky sexual behavior, cheating maybe um because they

behavior, cheating maybe um because they are that because of the impulsivity. So

are that because of the impulsivity. So it might be I would want to see that

it might be I would want to see that study replicated many times before I

study replicated many times before I think we say that's a that's a

think we say that's a that's a fundamental issue. And I would also

fundamental issue. And I would also question you know if it's got a very

question you know if it's got a very small effect size there's many other

small effect size there's many other reasons why people cheat. So, do you

reasons why people cheat. So, do you know I think in part the reason why I

know I think in part the reason why I asked that question is because again one

asked that question is because again one of my very good friends um has struggled

of my very good friends um has struggled in this regard for many many years. He's

in this regard for many many years. He's approaching his 40s now and he's what

approaching his 40s now and he's what what what part of the relationship is

what what part of the relationship is well it's not necessarily what he

well it's not necessarily what he struggled with. It's what he loves. He

struggled with. It's what he loves. He loves as he says to me the chase. Yes.

loves as he says to me the chase. Yes. He says I love the chase. Yes. And when

He says I love the chase. Yes. And when you when you really just love the chase

you when you really just love the chase and you maybe don't love the part after

and you maybe don't love the part after it as much you're not going to have a

it as much you're not going to have a great relationship. and he got to I

great relationship. and he got to I think about 35 36 years old and he was

think about 35 36 years old and he was diagnosed with ADHD and it put the rest

diagnosed with ADHD and it put the rest of his life in context and it was I mean

of his life in context and it was I mean of all the people that I know that have

of all the people that I know that have ADHD most certainly he fits the the sort

ADHD most certainly he fits the the sort of criteria and um he looked back

of criteria and um he looked back through his old report cards and he look

through his old report cards and he look mapped the behavior that he had had in

mapped the behavior that he had had in relationships. It was very impulsive. It

relationships. It was very impulsive. It was very very short term. He loves he

was very very short term. He loves he goes on more dates than anyone I've ever

goes on more dates than anyone I've ever met in my entire life because he loves

met in my entire life because he loves the as he says the chase. And I I

the as he says the chase. And I I thought, you know, maybe there is a link

thought, you know, maybe there is a link there with his neurodiversity.

there with his neurodiversity. Obviously, I would say there probably

Obviously, I would say there probably is. I mean, he's dopamine seeking. Yeah.

is. I mean, he's dopamine seeking. Yeah. Essentially, that's what he's doing

Essentially, that's what he's doing because the early stages, you know, when

because the early stages, you know, when you get lot um when you get further into

you get lot um when you get further into a relationship, dopamine takes more of a

a relationship, dopamine takes more of a back seat. Um and come in. So, betray is

back seat. Um and come in. So, betray is the chemical of long-term love. Dopamine

the chemical of long-term love. Dopamine is much more in the background at that

is much more in the background at that point. So, we get the major part of our

point. So, we get the major part of our dopamine hits in relationships at the

dopamine hits in relationships at the start. And that's probably why he gets

start. And that's probably why he gets to a point where the dopamine starts

to a point where the dopamine starts tailing off. The oxytocin starts to tail

tailing off. The oxytocin starts to tail off and beta endorphine starts kicking

off and beta endorphine starts kicking in and it becomes less exciting. That's

in and it becomes less exciting. That's when we move from passionate love to

when we move from passionate love to companionate love and it's just not as

companionate love and it's just not as exhilarating maybe. So if you have a

exhilarating maybe. So if you have a brain like that that's highly dopamine

brain like that that's highly dopamine seeking. You're going to theoretically

seeking. You're going to theoretically struggle to have long-term

struggle to have long-term relationships. And we know that. We know

relationships. And we know that. We know that. I I recently um did a conference

that. I I recently um did a conference which was on women in ADHD and we had a

which was on women in ADHD and we had a workshop and most of the women in that

workshop and most of the women in that room said I either don't have

room said I either don't have relationships or I struggle or I'm in a

relationships or I struggle or I'm in a long-term relationship but it is a daily

long-term relationship but it is a daily struggle to maintain it because it's so

struggle to maintain it because it's so hard to keep your attention on that

hard to keep your attention on that relationship to not look for the novelty

relationship to not look for the novelty elsewhere and also for the other person

elsewhere and also for the other person particularly if they're neurotypical to

particularly if they're neurotypical to deal with. I mean, one woman said to me,

deal with. I mean, one woman said to me, "I'm always told I'm too much. I'm too

"I'm always told I'm too much. I'm too much to go out with because of the

much to go out with because of the impulsivity and the rushing around and

impulsivity and the rushing around and the lack of attention and the lack of

the lack of attention and the lack of calmness and the need for spontaneity, I

calmness and the need for spontaneity, I guess." Yeah. What can one do about it?

guess." Yeah. What can one do about it? I I don't like pushing drugs on anybody.

I I don't like pushing drugs on anybody. And I think whether you take um

And I think whether you take um medication for ADHD is a very personal

medication for ADHD is a very personal decision. But I think if I the mantra I

decision. But I think if I the mantra I have is if your ADHD is fundamentally

have is if your ADHD is fundamentally upsetting your life and you feel that

upsetting your life and you feel that then it's something you maybe need to

then it's something you maybe need to consider. It's very difficult to do just

consider. It's very difficult to do just off your own back. It's not a therapy

off your own back. It's not a therapy issue. It's not you know an attachment

issue. It's not you know an attachment issue. It's very likely to be a

issue. It's very likely to be a neurochemical issue. And that's the

neurochemical issue. And that's the different thing. I would also say it's

different thing. I would also say it's also about the people who you go out

also about the people who you go out with. I've spoken to lots of couples

with. I've spoken to lots of couples which are mixed in terms of

which are mixed in terms of neurodiversity and neurotypical and it's

neurodiversity and neurotypical and it's about the person who's neurotypical

about the person who's neurotypical really educating themselves about how

really educating themselves about how the neurodyiverse brain works. So they

the neurodyiverse brain works. So they have an understanding also about why is

have an understanding also about why is that person reacting like that? Why are

that person reacting like that? Why are they doing that? And that's also really

they doing that? And that's also really really important. I don't think we want

really important. I don't think we want to put the burden always on

to put the burden always on neurodyiverse people to change because I

neurodyiverse people to change because I don't think that's really an acceptable

don't think that's really an acceptable thing to ask them to do. I don't think

thing to ask them to do. I don't think it's really any different from any

it's really any different from any relationship. The best relationships are

relationship. The best relationships are ones where we take the time to really

ones where we take the time to really understand who our partner is. That's

understand who our partner is. That's the way it works best. So you saying you

the way it works best. So you saying you and your partner talk about your

and your partner talk about your attachment styles. That's really

attachment styles. That's really important. You're fundamentally

important. You're fundamentally making it clear that that's important to

making it clear that that's important to you and that your partner has an

you and that your partner has an understanding and you're explaining your

understanding and you're explaining your behavior. And I think that's important.

behavior. And I think that's important. I wonder how this dubtales into the

I wonder how this dubtales into the subject of sex and novelty and

subject of sex and novelty and spontaneity as it relates to sex. If

spontaneity as it relates to sex. If you're a neurody divergent person or you

you're a neurody divergent person or you just have a higher, you know, impulse

just have a higher, you know, impulse desire, I guess, or impulsivity, need

desire, I guess, or impulsivity, need for novelty,

for novelty, you probably get bored of sex pretty

you probably get bored of sex pretty quick, possibly. Yeah. I mean, it's not

quick, possibly. Yeah. I mean, it's not an area I study particularly, but I

an area I study particularly, but I think yes, you probably do. And and we

think yes, you probably do. And and we know that humans, some humans are

know that humans, some humans are genetically neurode divergent or not,

genetically neurode divergent or not, some humans are genetically predisposed

some humans are genetically predisposed to like novelty more than others. It's

to like novelty more than others. It's part of the of one of the dopamine

part of the of one of the dopamine genes. And so some people yes they are

genes. And so some people yes they are more likely to seek out novelty and want

more likely to seek out novelty and want for example yes a very varied sex life.

for example yes a very varied sex life. Um but you know that's something you can

Um but you know that's something you can have with one individual. You don't

have with one individual. You don't necessarily have to go out and you know

necessarily have to go out and you know if that individual is willing to to go

if that individual is willing to to go down that route with you. It's not

down that route with you. It's not something you necessarily have to seek

something you necessarily have to seek elsewhere. As it relates to all the work

elsewhere. As it relates to all the work that you do and the future work that

that you do and the future work that you're going to go on to do. What is the

you're going to go on to do. What is the most important thing we haven't talked

most important thing we haven't talked about that maybe we should have talked

about that maybe we should have talked about? Um two things. I really really

about? Um two things. I really really want to emphasize the body of work which

want to emphasize the body of work which says that your relationships are the

says that your relationships are the biggest factor in your health, your

biggest factor in your health, your longevity and your well-being. And the

longevity and your well-being. And the reason why I want to emphasize that is

reason why I want to emphasize that is because in a world of digital

because in a world of digital communication we have become much less

communication we have become much less good at nurturing our relationships much

good at nurturing our relationships much less good at impact inputting into our

less good at impact inputting into our relationships maintaining our

relationships maintaining our relationships in the way they should be

relationships in the way they should be maintained which is in person. And that

maintained which is in person. And that has consequences for our health. you

has consequences for our health. you know a wonderful study the first study

know a wonderful study the first study of its kind in 2010 there have been many

of its kind in 2010 there have been many since by Julie Halt Lunstead she but she

since by Julie Halt Lunstead she but she did a massive meta analysis which is

did a massive meta analysis which is lots and lots of studies coming together

lots and lots of studies coming together looking at the impact of your social

looking at the impact of your social network your relationships all those

network your relationships all those sorts of things on outcomes health

sorts of things on outcomes health outcomes things like the likelihood that

outcomes things like the likelihood that you would have poor mental health the

you would have poor mental health the likelihood that you would suffer from

likelihood that you would suffer from certain chronic diseases the likelihood

certain chronic diseases the likelihood that you would recover from certain

that you would recover from certain illnesses or how long it would take you

illnesses or how long it would take you to come back round after having an

to come back round after having an operation in terms of getting better and

operation in terms of getting better and she found and it's been even more

she found and it's been even more impressive since then that that your

impressive since then that that your relationships are the biggest factor in

relationships are the biggest factor in your health, well-being and longevity

your health, well-being and longevity above all else from don't smoke,

above all else from don't smoke, maintain a good weight, do your

maintain a good weight, do your exercise, eat your vegetables, all those

exercise, eat your vegetables, all those sorts of things. Above all of that sit

sorts of things. Above all of that sit your relationships. So when we in this

your relationships. So when we in this very healthconscious world where we have

very healthconscious world where we have lots of health influences and all that

lots of health influences and all that kind of thing,

kind of thing, we're still missing that point and we're

we're still missing that point and we're still trying to do our relationships

still trying to do our relationships efficiently in this busy busy world. And

efficiently in this busy busy world. And I understand why. And the tools we've

I understand why. And the tools we've been given to do it are attractive. You

been given to do it are attractive. You know, they're attractive. We love a new

know, they're attractive. We love a new shiny thing, humans, and they're they're

shiny thing, humans, and they're they're great. But what's happened is we've

great. But what's happened is we've we've forgotten who we are and how we

we've forgotten who we are and how we need to do it. And our brains did not

need to do it. And our brains did not evolve with the shiny screen. Our brains

evolve with the shiny screen. Our brains evolved in a world where we all lived

evolved in a world where we all lived very very close together. And we need to

very very close together. And we need to kind of in a way go back to that if you

kind of in a way go back to that if you want to f have that fulfilling life. So

want to f have that fulfilling life. So I think that's my first point. I think

I think that's my first point. I think the second one is the role for AI. Uh,

the second one is the role for AI. Uh, and you've probably talked about AI in

and you've probably talked about AI in so many different contexts, but AI in

so many different contexts, but AI in our intimate relationships, and I don't

our intimate relationships, and I don't mean just sexually intimate, I mean

mean just sexually intimate, I mean emotionally intimate. So, any

emotionally intimate. So, any relationship you have based on love is

relationship you have based on love is something we need to talk about because

something we need to talk about because there is work towards, for example, we

there is work towards, for example, we know about AI chatbots already. Uh, and

know about AI chatbots already. Uh, and we know that there's going to be work

we know that there's going to be work towards having AI caretakers, for

towards having AI caretakers, for example, people who care for people,

example, people who care for people, robots who care for people, or even, you

robots who care for people, or even, you know, you could even possibly have a

know, you could even possibly have a relationship. I'm not talking about sex

relationship. I'm not talking about sex bots, but I'm talking about a full

bots, but I'm talking about a full relationship with a robot. Again, all of

relationship with a robot. Again, all of these things, we need to understand the

these things, we need to understand the implications and we need to have a

implications and we need to have a conversation now because when you

conversation now because when you unleash these things, if you haven't had

unleash these things, if you haven't had that conversation, it's very hard to put

that conversation, it's very hard to put them back in the box. And we know

them back in the box. And we know already things like chat bots are out

already things like chat bots are out there and I'm not the sort to say

there and I'm not the sort to say something is entirely negative. So, chat

something is entirely negative. So, chat bots have their place. They've been

bots have their place. They've been shown to be really, really good for

shown to be really, really good for particularly with people who have social

particularly with people who have social anxiety or people who are, for example,

anxiety or people who are, for example, autistic and want to practice being

autistic and want to practice being social. They're really good. You're not

social. They're really good. You're not going to get any criticism from the

going to get any criticism from the chatbot. You're not going to get a funny

chatbot. You're not going to get a funny face pulled or make them feel

face pulled or make them feel uncomfortable. It's great. You can have

uncomfortable. It's great. You can have a good old and that's brilliant. It's

a good old and that's brilliant. It's when you replace real human contact.

when you replace real human contact. Absolutely. It's

Absolutely. It's it makes the conversation feel a lot

it makes the conversation feel a lot more comfortable and natural. Um, and

more comfortable and natural. Um, and you can really focus on the chat itself,

you can really focus on the chat itself, distractions. It uh it definitely helps

distractions. It uh it definitely helps keep the vibe positive. Isn't it crazy

keep the vibe positive. Isn't it crazy how much that's progressed? Yeah, it is.

how much that's progressed? Yeah, it is. But what scares me about it is that

But what scares me about it is that person talking to you there. Your brain

person talking to you there. Your brain at the moment because we haven't

at the moment because we haven't advanced enough in AI and maybe well

advanced enough in AI and maybe well knows that's not human. And because it

knows that's not human. And because it knows it's not human, it's not releasing

knows it's not human, it's not releasing any of the positive chemicals that come

any of the positive chemicals that come with social interaction in your brain.

with social interaction in your brain. And it's those chemicals that underpin

And it's those chemicals that underpin your health, your mental health and your

your health, your mental health and your physical health. Be sure often underpins

physical health. Be sure often underpins your immune system. So that's the

your immune system. So that's the problem. Your prefrontal cortex at the

problem. Your prefrontal cortex at the moment is not recognizing that as human.

moment is not recognizing that as human. So it's not going to kick off anything.

So it's not going to kick off anything. And that is the problem. Now maybe a

And that is the problem. Now maybe a robot, you know, an AI guy would say to

robot, you know, an AI guy would say to me, "Oh, we'll get there." Okay, if you

me, "Oh, we'll get there." Okay, if you can get there, great. But at the moment,

can get there, great. But at the moment, we're not. And we have people who are

we're not. And we have people who are starting to build really strong

starting to build really strong attachments to these things. You can

attachments to these things. You can build an attachment to a chatbot. It's a

build an attachment to a chatbot. It's a parasocial relationship. Same as

parasocial relationship. Same as building a relationship to a celebrity

building a relationship to a celebrity you've never met, but you're not getting

you've never met, but you're not getting any of the positive benefits. So have

any of the positive benefits. So have them in their life. Have them as part of

them in their life. Have them as part of your social network. if you want to

your social network. if you want to spend time, but do not replace humans

spend time, but do not replace humans with them or even dogs with them. Um,

with them or even dogs with them. Um, care robots scare me because um again

care robots scare me because um again it's about replacing humans in a context

it's about replacing humans in a context which is very very complicated from a

which is very very complicated from a neuroscientific point of view. Care

neuroscientific point of view. Care requires empathy. It requires um a thing

requires empathy. It requires um a thing called which occurs in very close human

called which occurs in very close human relationships again underpins our um

relationships again underpins our um immune system and our health known as

immune system and our health known as biobehavioral synchrony. So bio

biobehavioral synchrony. So bio behavioral synchrony, we won't have it

behavioral synchrony, we won't have it now. I'm really sorry. We're not close

now. I'm really sorry. We're not close enough. But you will have it with your

enough. But you will have it with your partner. So when you're with your

partner. So when you're with your partner, if I were to observe you, your

partner, if I were to observe you, your body language and maybe the gestures you

body language and maybe the gestures you use and the and your vocal tone and

use and the and your vocal tone and maybe the language you use would start

maybe the language you use would start kind of matching each other. We all know

kind of matching each other. We all know this from management training. You know,

this from management training. You know, you match people to make them feel

you match people to make them feel closer to you. Fine. It's what humans

closer to you. Fine. It's what humans do. It makes us feel close to each

do. It makes us feel close to each other. But if we were to look into your

other. But if we were to look into your body, you and your partner would have

body, you and your partner would have entered that room at different baseline

entered that room at different baseline levels of physiological measures such as

levels of physiological measures such as your blood pressure, your heart rate,

your blood pressure, your heart rate, your body temperature. Okay? If you sat

your body temperature. Okay? If you sat together and had a chat for five

together and had a chat for five minutes, those would all come into

minutes, those would all come into synchrony. So your heart rates would

synchrony. So your heart rates would synchronize, your body temperature and

synchronize, your body temperature and your blood pressure. And then if we were

your blood pressure. And then if we were to look into your brain, two things

to look into your brain, two things would have happened. First of all,

would have happened. First of all, having come into the room again with

having come into the room again with different activation patterns in your

different activation patterns in your brain, we would look in your brain and

brain, we would look in your brain and your activation patterns would be the

your activation patterns would be the same. So you would be perceiving the

same. So you would be perceiving the world in the same way. And finally, if

world in the same way. And finally, if we looked at your neurochemical levels,

we looked at your neurochemical levels, so we generally look at oxytocin because

so we generally look at oxytocin because it's easiest to access. Again, we all

it's easiest to access. Again, we all have baseline levels of oxytocin.

have baseline levels of oxytocin. They're different from each other. You

They're different from each other. You would have walked in with different

would have walked in with different levels. After 5 minutes, they would have

levels. After 5 minutes, they would have synchronized. They would be the same. So

synchronized. They would be the same. So what actually happens when you're with

what actually happens when you're with someone you're close to to develop that

someone you're close to to develop that bond is you become one organism.

bond is you become one organism. You are literally operating as one

You are literally operating as one being. And we think that's that in a way

being. And we think that's that in a way is the absolute fundamental basis of

is the absolute fundamental basis of human close love and it's the fundament

human close love and it's the fundament and you don't get that at the moment

and you don't get that at the moment with an AI robot. And I can't imagine it

with an AI robot. And I can't imagine it being easy because you need a wet brain

being easy because you need a wet brain and you need a circulatory system. This

and you need a circulatory system. This um this picture I have here which talks

um this picture I have here which talks about the brain and love. What is that

about the brain and love. What is that showing? That's showing that we can I'll

showing? That's showing that we can I'll throw it up on the screen but yes it's

throw it up on the screen but yes it's showing that we can't get the same depth

showing that we can't get the same depth of love as it relates to neuroscience

of love as it relates to neuroscience that then we can from a human versus

that then we can from a human versus like a pet. Yes. So what's happening

like a pet. Yes. So what's happening here? So we've got the different sorts

here? So we've got the different sorts of love. So we've got romantic love and

of love. So we've got romantic love and parental love. Now these two arguably

parental love. Now these two arguably are the most intense forms of love.

are the most intense forms of love. Okay? Uh that's why you see such

Okay? Uh that's why you see such amazingly complex areas of the brain

amazingly complex areas of the brain lighting up. You've got a lot happening

lighting up. You've got a lot happening in the core of the brain here. This is

in the core of the brain here. This is the lyic system. And you've got

the lyic system. And you've got happening neoccortically as well in

happening neoccortically as well in relation to areas related to um social

relation to areas related to um social behavior but also things like

behavior but also things like empathizing, okay, and maintenance and

empathizing, okay, and maintenance and trust and all those sorts of things.

trust and all those sorts of things. Love for a friend is from a

Love for a friend is from a neuroscientific point of view nearly as

neuroscientific point of view nearly as complicated as romantic love. But what

complicated as romantic love. But what it doesn't actually have which is really

it doesn't actually have which is really interesting is in romantic love the

interesting is in romantic love the difference is we actually get some

difference is we actually get some activations which mirror the activations

activations which mirror the activations you get if you're on an opiate. Mhm.

you get if you're on an opiate. Mhm. That sort of addictive euphoric um

That sort of addictive euphoric um sensation. You get that you get that

sensation. You get that you get that pattern in romantic love. You don't get

pattern in romantic love. You don't get it in friendship love. You also don't

it in friendship love. You also don't generally get biobehavioral synchrony in

generally get biobehavioral synchrony in friendship unless it's a really close

friendship unless it's a really close friend. So friendship love is just less

friend. So friendship love is just less intense. It's a love but it's not as

intense. It's a love but it's not as intense. I wouldn't describe this as

intense. I wouldn't describe this as love for a stranger. What you can see

love for a stranger. What you can see the reason why I say that is can you see

the reason why I say that is can you see how little unconscious activation there

how little unconscious activation there is? This is the limbic area. Well that's

is? This is the limbic area. Well that's the same with the pet. So so we get

the same with the pet. So so we get we're not getting any unconscious

we're not getting any unconscious nurturing attachment behaviors which you

nurturing attachment behaviors which you wouldn't expect to get with a stranger.

wouldn't expect to get with a stranger. with a pet. I'm surprised to look at

with a pet. I'm surprised to look at this and I don't know where this came

this and I don't know where this came from because other studies have shown

from because other studies have shown that pet love is very like parental

that pet love is very like parental love. Oh, really? Yeah. So, I don't know

love. Oh, really? Yeah. So, I don't know which study this is and I don't know

which study this is and I don't know what they looked at or how many people

what they looked at or how many people they looked at. So, that's interesting.

they looked at. So, that's interesting. But what I would expect to see more more

But what I would expect to see more more actually here in the nurturing area

actually here in the nurturing area because we do know that um you can build

because we do know that um you can build an attachment relationship with a pet.

an attachment relationship with a pet. So, it's very surprising that there's

So, it's very surprising that there's nothing there.

nothing there. The research you have there looked at

The research you have there looked at the differences between friends, loves,

the differences between friends, loves, pet strangers. Um, it's from Renee Atel

pet strangers. Um, it's from Renee Atel cerebral cortex, a 2024 study. Okay.

cerebral cortex, a 2024 study. Okay. Okay. That's interesting. I mean, with

Okay. That's interesting. I mean, with science, you sometimes get different

science, you sometimes get different answers because you've done different

answers because you've done different methodology or you've got different

methodology or you've got different populations. We tend to like to see

populations. We tend to like to see things replicated for them to be

things replicated for them to be converted. So, I'm a bit surprised by

converted. So, I'm a bit surprised by this. Also, in my book, I talk about

this. Also, in my book, I talk about some really good studies that have been

some really good studies that have been done looking at dog human love. So I'm

done looking at dog human love. So I'm surprised by that. I'm not surprised

surprised by that. I'm not surprised that it's got quite a a bit of cortical

that it's got quite a a bit of cortical action. I'm really surprised it has

action. I'm really surprised it has nothing in the limbic area because

nothing in the limbic area because that's where attachment is. And love for

that's where attachment is. And love for nature. Um again this is really

nature. Um again this is really interesting because again this is this

interesting because again this is this is the striatum and the amydala and this

is the striatum and the amydala and this is where human love like to another

is where human love like to another sentient being would be. And again we've

sentient being would be. And again we've got nothing. So love for nature is a

got nothing. So love for nature is a much more it's not a conscious thing

much more it's not a conscious thing but it's a much less emotional thing.

but it's a much less emotional thing. It's it's different. And and we only

It's it's different. And and we only really see patterns like this if you're

really see patterns like this if you're interacting with another sentient being.

interacting with another sentient being. And this is what kind of worries me

And this is what kind of worries me about AI because if you did this with

about AI because if you did this with AI, you would probably get something

AI, you would probably get something like this. If you really loved your AI

like this. If you really loved your AI robot at the moment or your chatbot, you

robot at the moment or your chatbot, you would get this. But you I would be very

would get this. But you I would be very surprised if you got anything in the

surprised if you got anything in the limbic area. And and and the studies so

limbic area. And and and the studies so far show that we don't because you you

far show that we don't because you you don't develop that loving relationship

don't develop that loving relationship and you certainly don't get anything in

and you certainly don't get anything in the prefrontal cortex. And that's the

the prefrontal cortex. And that's the problem. Now AI might go on in leaps and

problem. Now AI might go on in leaps and bounds, but I at the moment when they

bounds, but I at the moment when they talk about programming empathy, empathy

talk about programming empathy, empathy is so complicated and particularly the

is so complicated and particularly the empathy we have, we have cognitive

empathy we have, we have cognitive empathy. Most animals have emotional

empathy. Most animals have emotional empathy. So cognitive empathy is much

empathy. So cognitive empathy is much more complex. It's very hard to do and

more complex. It's very hard to do and the fact you can't get biobehavioral

the fact you can't get biobehavioral synchrony unless you have a wet system.

synchrony unless you have a wet system. And robots so far don't have wet

And robots so far don't have wet systems. So that's what worries me. But

systems. So that's what worries me. But it's going to come and we have to have

it's going to come and we have to have that conversation.

that conversation. We have a closing tradition where the

We have a closing tradition where the last guest leaves the question for the

last guest leaves the question for the next guest knowing not knowing who

next guest knowing not knowing who they're leaving it for. Okay. And the

they're leaving it for. Okay. And the question that's been left for you, was

question that's been left for you, was there a moment in your career when you

there a moment in your career when you said to yourself, I have made it.

said to yourself, I have made it. Um I think I'm not good at doing that

Um I think I'm not good at doing that actually. I said to my husband the other

actually. I said to my husband the other day, I'm not good at celebrating when I

day, I'm not good at celebrating when I do something. So I tend to go, what's

do something. So I tend to go, what's next?

next? um very human. I suppose one of the

um very human. I suppose one of the times I thought I probably had made it

times I thought I probably had made it was when I started at the University of

was when I started at the University of Oxford and I was working with Robin

Oxford and I was working with Robin Dumbar and then I thought from an

Dumbar and then I thought from an academic point of view this is like the

academic point of view this is like the pinnacle of where you can work with a

pinnacle of where you can work with a team of people who are at the forefront

team of people who are at the forefront of what they're doing. So I think that

of what they're doing. So I think that was probably a moment but I'm really

was probably a moment but I'm really good in retrospect at kind of rewriting

good in retrospect at kind of rewriting that and going yeah but that wasn't good

that and going yeah but that wasn't good enough so let's go and do the next

enough so let's go and do the next thing. So so if we look forward then sat

thing. So so if we look forward then sat here now

here now What do you think the moment will be in

What do you think the moment will be in your future where you think you've made

your future where you think you've made it? Although you probably when you

it? Although you probably when you arrive there, you'll think, you know,

arrive there, you'll think, you know, there's another goal.

there's another goal. I think

I think it's partly to do with the spreading of

it's partly to do with the spreading of education. I think if my next book

education. I think if my next book reaches a lot of people and reaches

reaches a lot of people and reaches enough people, I will think I've made it

enough people, I will think I've made it and I've done my mission to share what

and I've done my mission to share what we know about dads because there's so

we know about dads because there's so much written and it stays in fusty old

much written and it stays in fusty old journals and nobody reads it. And I want

journals and nobody reads it. And I want to share that because it fundamentally

to share that because it fundamentally changes

changes how who dads think they are and how they

how who dads think they are and how they do it. I get so many emails from people

do it. I get so many emails from people saying, you know, wow, I've read your

saying, you know, wow, I've read your book and it like legitimizes so much for

book and it like legitimizes so much for me. It makes me understand what I'm

me. It makes me understand what I'm going through or it makes me realize

going through or it makes me realize that I am needed. And I think if I can

that I am needed. And I think if I can get a book that has a really diverse

get a book that has a really diverse readership, then that will be the moment

readership, then that will be the moment where I think yes, I've done what I want

where I think yes, I've done what I want to do. And what is the um unheard plight

to do. And what is the um unheard plight of dads? Because you'll be on the

of dads? Because you'll be on the receiving end of so many messages and

receiving end of so many messages and emails and stuff. What if you could

emails and stuff. What if you could summarize how dads are feeling at the

summarize how dads are feeling at the moment and why your work is resonating?

moment and why your work is resonating? How would you summarize if if you were

How would you summarize if if you were speaking as a dad, a dad who represents

speaking as a dad, a dad who represents the average of the dads that contact

the average of the dads that contact you? What would those sentences be? It

you? What would those sentences be? It would be, I'm made to feel unimportant.

would be, I'm made to feel unimportant. I am made to feel like a secondary

I am made to feel like a secondary parent, like a bag carrier or the person

parent, like a bag carrier or the person who makes the tea. That's particularly

who makes the tea. That's particularly in relation to like birth and antiatal

in relation to like birth and antiatal stuff. So, it's all about them not

stuff. So, it's all about them not feeling like they are important or that

feeling like they are important or that they're needed. and they are so wrong.

they're needed. and they are so wrong. Is the law slightly biased towards Do

Is the law slightly biased towards Do you know how why I asked that question?

you know how why I asked that question? I was in a cab the other day and I got

I was in a cab the other day and I got in this taxi in uh in London and the cab

in this taxi in uh in London and the cab driver um spent about 30 minutes telling

driver um spent about 30 minutes telling me that he'd been at a march in London

me that he'd been at a march in London for dads and that he had had his child

for dads and that he had had his child taken off him, I believe. Mhm. and he

taken off him, I believe. Mhm. and he was proceeded to tell me for the next

was proceeded to tell me for the next sort of 20 minutes that the laws are

sort of 20 minutes that the laws are unfair as it relates to dad's right to

unfair as it relates to dad's right to to see and take care of their kids.

to see and take care of their kids. Yeah, you probably know the laws better

Yeah, you probably know the laws better than I do, but it is and we I've spent a

than I do, but it is and we I've spent a long time and I'm still not there yet

long time and I'm still not there yet wanting to go into the family courts in

wanting to go into the family courts in Britain and inform them about this

Britain and inform them about this because at the moment they're operating

because at the moment they're operating on out modded um understandings that the

on out modded um understandings that the primary person a child needs is their

primary person a child needs is their mom and therefore if there's any

mom and therefore if there's any possible reason why dad they don't think

possible reason why dad they don't think dad is appropriate, whatever it might

dad is appropriate, whatever it might be, it might be that dad's living too

be, it might be that dad's living too far away or dad's job doesn't allow for

far away or dad's job doesn't allow for it. They will not stick to the

it. They will not stick to the presumption of 50/50 custody and they

presumption of 50/50 custody and they will swing it all over in terms in in

will swing it all over in terms in in favor of mom, for example. And that is

favor of mom, for example. And that is because they do not fundamentally

because they do not fundamentally understand how important that father is

understand how important that father is to that child. And that's because

to that child. And that's because they've not kept up. They're literally

they've not kept up. They're literally they're operating on very outmoded

they're operating on very outmoded completely culturally based, not

completely culturally based, not evidencebased at all assumptions about

evidencebased at all assumptions about who a father is. So he's right. He's

who a father is. So he's right. He's absolutely right. And there are many men

absolutely right. And there are many men who are in that position. I get emailed

who are in that position. I get emailed all the time from men doing and all the

all the time from men doing and all the time from people saying, you know, well,

time from people saying, you know, well, you come and be my expert witness, et

you come and be my expert witness, et and I can't I can't do it. I I don't

and I can't I can't do it. I I don't have time to do it. But yeah, there's a

have time to do it. But yeah, there's a fundamental misunderstanding of how

fundamental misunderstanding of how important fathers are, but that's just

important fathers are, but that's just reflecting a wider cultural problem.

reflecting a wider cultural problem. Thank you. Thank you so much for doing

Thank you. Thank you so much for doing the work you're doing because you're

the work you're doing because you're certainly opening millions and millions

certainly opening millions and millions of people's eyes. You've opened my eyes

of people's eyes. You've opened my eyes in a a bunch of profound ways, both on

in a a bunch of profound ways, both on the subject of love, but also on the

the subject of love, but also on the importance of fatherhood. And it is very

importance of fatherhood. And it is very easy to to believe the sort of broader

easy to to believe the sort of broader social narrative that as a father you

social narrative that as a father you are surplus to requirements or you're

are surplus to requirements or you're some I don't know you're there to to pay

some I don't know you're there to to pay for things or you're um less important

for things or you're um less important in some way. But you know I've got a

in some way. But you know I've got a brother who's a year older than me and

brother who's a year older than me and he's got three kids under the age of six

he's got three kids under the age of six and um he's really managed to design his

and um he's really managed to design his life around being there for those kids.

life around being there for those kids. And I've seen both the impact that

And I've seen both the impact that that's had on those kids and their

that's had on those kids and their development but also the impact it's had

development but also the impact it's had on him and the meaning he has in his

on him and the meaning he has in his life. and he's one of those fathers that

life. and he's one of those fathers that um walked away from the corporate world

um walked away from the corporate world and made a decision to prioritize the

and made a decision to prioritize the three little children that he's brought

three little children that he's brought into this world. And it's really like

into this world. And it's really like kind of blew open my own I guess

kind of blew open my own I guess stereotypes and presumptions that I had

stereotypes and presumptions that I had about the role that I have when I become

about the role that I have when I become a dad. And now much of the reason I have

a dad. And now much of the reason I have these conversations and enjoy your work

these conversations and enjoy your work so much is because it's a further

so much is because it's a further reminder that um the narrative I've

reminder that um the narrative I've believed around fathers being this you

believed around fathers being this you know kind of distant uh being that

know kind of distant uh being that floats in and out in provides you blow

floats in and out in provides you blow it open and you blow it open from a

it open and you blow it open from a anthropological perspective and

anthropological perspective and evolutionary perspective and a

evolutionary perspective and a neuroscience and biological perspective

neuroscience and biological perspective which I think is really critical and I

which I think is really critical and I think because of that there's going to

think because of that there's going to be so many kids that have better

be so many kids that have better development outcomes and so please do

development outcomes and so please do keep doing the work you're doing and I'm

keep doing the work you're doing and I'm very excited for your upcoming book.

very excited for your upcoming book. Thank you so much. Thank you for being

Thank you so much. Thank you for being here. Really appreciate you. Thank you.

here. Really appreciate you. Thank you. Thank you.

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YouTube Transcript:World Expert on Love: Your Brain Already Picked Your Partner (But They’re Lying About Monogamy)

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World Expert on Love: Your Brain Already Picked Your Partner (But They’re Lying About Monogamy)