0:10 mutual
0:11 funds
0:13 top. This is the right
0:15 [Music]
0:27 times. This is the right
0:39 time. Investments are subject to market
0:41 risks. Read all scheme related documents
0:44 carefully.
0:46 There are weeks when news cycle moves
0:48 really fast. That's tough for us
0:51 journalists. There are days then when
0:53 new cycle moves even faster, right? That
0:57 is tougher still. But then there can be
0:59 weeks with successive days where new
1:02 cycle moves all the time. All the time a
1:05 new headline comes and and an important
1:08 headline comes. So we just had we were
1:11 still figuring out the implications and
1:15 importance of
1:16 India's holding the Indas waters treaty
1:19 in obeyance and I had done some homework
1:22 homework on that and I will share that
1:24 with you and my colleague our deputy
1:26 editor Mashmi Das Gupta will join in in
1:28 in in a bit after I've explained the
1:31 larger situation to you to talk about
1:32 particular projects she'll join me in
1:35 and while we were still sort of
1:38 digesting it and understanding it. The
1:40 prime minister spoke out this morning
1:42 which was very important and some sort
1:45 of a diplomatic response diplomatic to
1:47 the extent that India's steps were taken
1:50 on the diplomatic plane non-military
1:53 plane. Pakistan has also announced its
1:56 own responses. So what are we doing
1:58 then? This is a rare day when you are
2:01 going to have two episodes of
2:02 kataklatter. So this will be the first
2:04 will come out earlier us talking about
2:07 India's waters treaty and what it means
2:09 what does India's holding it in in a
2:11 base means what are the choices what are
2:14 the prospects what does it mean for
2:16 India for Pakistan and what is the
2:19 picture on the ground just to understand
2:21 the industry because this is not just
2:24 something everybody says Indas waters
2:26 treaty do this do that good bad etc but
2:29 we need to understand what it is that is
2:31 what I will do right now So we know that
2:34 Indas waters treaty is something that
2:36 India and Pakistan signed with the
2:39 mediation of the World Bank. World Bank
2:41 is a signary and a kind of third empire
2:45 to this. This was signed in 1960 between
2:48 Phil Marshall Aayub and and Javaral Neu
2:52 on the Indian side. This treaty has so
2:55 far stood the test of time. It's been 65
2:58 years. This treaty has held through
3:01 through wars that is
3:03 1965 1971 many near wars including
3:07 Cargill of Parakram etc etc. This in
3:11 fact is held out because this is a world
3:14 that's heading for water wars in many
3:16 areas or water wars in the sense that
3:19 there are many serious issues with water
3:21 in many areas. The most important that
3:24 we will see going ahead besides of
3:25 course the indust waters in India system
3:27 waters in the subcontinent will be
3:29 what's happening with river Nile in in
3:32 Africa because when Egypt was the only
3:35 developed country in that area it made
3:38 use of river Nile and built a lot of
3:41 economy around it. Now the countries
3:43 which are upstream of the river because
3:46 that's a south north flowing river. the
3:48 the poorer countries of the past also
3:51 want to use the water and that's where
3:53 that is Sudan, Ethiopia etc. and that's
3:56 where trouble is coming up. So Indas
3:58 waters treaty was seen as an example of
4:00 a good agreement that held out through
4:03 periods of crisis. However, it has not
4:05 survived at least for now it has not
4:07 survive survived this latest crisis
4:11 because just the outrage over selective
4:13 killing of tourists. These are not just
4:17 all tourists but selectively Hindus
4:20 after
4:22 identification that has caused an
4:24 outrage in the country. Also these
4:26 bodies have gone to as the prime
4:28 minister said in his speech they've gone
4:29 to all parts of the country as far as
4:32 Arunachal Pradesh. There is grief
4:34 everywhere and there is anger
4:35 everywhere. That's the reason India's
4:38 border treaty has been put in obeyance.
4:41 The fact is that in
4:43 2021, India had already moved the right
4:47 quarters that is the forbal quarters by
4:49 asking Pakistan for a renegotiation of
4:52 the treaty because India saw some
4:54 problems with it. I will explain these
4:56 problems to you as we go ahead. I had
4:58 done some of this in an earlier Kartaka
5:00 clutter episode 164. Today's is episode
5:05 1646. So this is 2 and 1/2 years later.
5:08 Then this issue had come up. India had
5:11 asked for a renegotiation but it did not
5:13 go anywhere. What does the Indust water
5:16 treaty say? So look at this map. This is
5:18 the map of the northern subcontinent and
5:22 this this tells you see see these see
5:25 these rivers coming in from the
5:27 Himalayan region. All of these are
5:29 Himalayan rivers. Some originate from
5:33 Tibet. Some originate from within India.
5:36 So if you see these rivers you start
5:39 Indas originates from from Tibet in in
5:44 China. Satlooj originates in Tibet in
5:48 China and then none of the others
5:50 involved in this case originate in
5:52 China. Chinab which is one of the
5:54 western rivers. Essential fact of Indas
5:57 waters treaty is that the rivers of the
6:00 west the west rivers of the west are
6:03 Indas, Chennab, Jalam that is three
6:06 rivers then Rai, Bas and Satluch those
6:09 are the three rivers on the eastern
6:12 side. Almost all of the water of the
6:15 western rivers that is Indas, Chennab
6:18 Ben and Jalam belongs to Pakistan in the
6:21 sense that India is supposed to let it
6:23 go to Pakistan minus some say about 18%
6:26 or so which India can keep and that is
6:29 water for local irrigation for local
6:32 drinking power generation some gets
6:35 consumed like that just like that so the
6:37 rest goes into Pakistan that is the
6:39 commitment in the treaty however
6:42 of the three eastern rivers that is
6:45 Ravi, Bas and Satloj. All of the water
6:50 belongs to India. All of the water
6:52 belongs to India. India has no
6:53 obligation to give any water to
6:55 Pakistan. If India so wishes, India can
6:58 shut these rivers off and nothing will
7:00 go into Pakistan. India has done almost
7:04 as much. The fact is that after building
7:06 a series of dams on these rivers, India
7:10 already uses about
7:12 90%. Aspirationally about 95% but 90%
7:16 mainly because the hurricane dam or the
7:18 hurricane bar the last point where the
7:21 Slouch goes into goes into
7:23 Pakistan before which and where Bas
7:26 already has joined Satloj that is where
7:29 the confluence is that that barrage
7:31 needs repairs. The second thing is that
7:34 another dam called called Shapur Kandi
7:37 that's been delayed for a very long
7:39 time. It's only now that Shapur Kandi
7:42 dam has been constructed. Reservoir is
7:44 fullying up. I think this monsoon it
7:46 will be full up. That that reservoir
7:48 will also stop a lot of water. That
7:51 water otherwise would have gone into
7:53 into Pakistan or to the Pakistani side
7:56 because Rabi river is a complex river. I
7:58 will come to that. But before we go into
8:00 those minutiae, let me give you the
8:02 larger figure. While it's one thing to
8:04 say that three rivers the water mostly
8:07 belongs to Pakistan or almost entirely
8:09 belongs to Pakistan, India has to let
8:11 go. Those are the western rivers going
8:13 through Jammu and Kashmir and Ladak.
8:15 While it's one thing to say that three
8:17 rivers of the west water belongs to
8:19 Pakistan and three rivers of the east
8:21 water belongs to India, the equation is
8:23 not so simple because the rivers of the
8:27 of the western region carry a lot more
8:29 water than rivers of the east. If you
8:32 look at all the water that India is
8:34 entitled to from the three rivers that
8:37 India owns, if I may put it like that,
8:39 then it comes to about 20 billion cub m.
8:44 What is a cubic meter? One cubic meter
8:46 is a thousand liters. It's like a
8:49 thousand bottles of biscary, aquafina,
8:51 kinlay, whatever. So you can visualize
8:54 that is 1 cubic meter. So 20 billion
8:57 cubic m sounds like a lot of water that
8:59 belongs to India. However, what Pakistan
9:02 gets is a lot more. Pakistan gets five
9:05 times as much. In fact, more than five
9:07 times as much. That is
9:09 218 billion cub m. That's from the
9:13 western rivers that is the Indust water
9:15 treaty. Now even within the three rivers
9:18 that India has on the eastern side there
9:21 are complexities river Ravi for example
9:24 it is it is it is described as a
9:26 transborder river because it's along one
9:28 of the tributaries of a tributary of
9:32 Ravi. Oj river is a tributary of Ravi.
9:35 Please look at your map carefully. It's
9:37 along that tributary that Siril
9:39 Radcliffe drew the line. do drew the
9:42 border line and from then on the teasil
9:45 of Shagar, Patanort and Gurdaspur border
9:49 bent along those tile or you can say
9:52 Taluka I don't know how you call Tessil
9:54 in many parts of the country usage
9:57 differs that is where the line was drawn
10:00 now if you see Rabi river it's called
10:03 it's called a transporter river because
10:06 until it goes into Pakistan it forms the
10:10 border between India and Pakistan. On
10:13 the Indian side there all there's always
10:15 been suspicion that while Pakistan does
10:18 not openly steal from the river they
10:21 carry out a lot of deep irrigation
10:24 alongside the river to draw out the
10:26 water which should have belonged to
10:29 India. At the same time Indas water
10:31 treaty says that Pakistan is bound by
10:34 the treaty to allow the free flow of the
10:37 water of these rivers and their
10:39 tributaries. These three eastern rivers
10:42 if they happen to stray through
10:44 Pakistani territory. Now that happens
10:46 with Satlooj in one place near Sulamani
10:49 headworks also it happens with Ravi.
10:51 Again, UJ river which is a significant
10:54 tributary of the Ravi that emanates that
10:58 comes out of above Kishwar from one side
11:00 of Piranjal ranges in in the larger
11:03 Jammu area and then it then it goes 100
11:08 kilometers into Pakistani Punjab. It
11:11 goes into Pakistani Punjab the Uj river
11:13 then makes a U-turn and comes back into
11:16 India. All of this water is India's. So
11:19 even if water goes into Pakistan,
11:21 Pakistan is not supposed to use it. This
11:23 water belongs to the Rai river. That's
11:25 the reason India has been trying to
11:27 build a dam called the UJ project which
11:30 would detain quite a bit of this water.
11:32 So it doesn't go into Pakistan. It does
11:34 not give them the option of drawing it.
11:37 This however is India's water. This is
11:39 not on one of the western rivers. This
11:43 is on one of the eastern rivers.
11:45 However, all these projects then keep
11:47 running into questions, challenges,
11:50 litigation because when the two
11:52 countries don't see eye to eye on
11:54 anything, why would they why would they
11:56 agree at least not agree easily on
11:59 anything to do with water which is such
12:02 a sensitive subject? Now, now once
12:05 again, now once again see the big
12:07 picture. See the big picture and see how
12:09 these rivers are coming out. Indas is
12:12 sort of the mother system. That's why
12:14 Indas waters treaty it is sort of the
12:17 mother system but very little of indust
12:19 goes through India. It enters India in
12:22 Lada, goes right through Ladak and then
12:25 goes into Pakistan occupied Kashmir,
12:28 Gilgit Baltistan areas goes around Nanga
12:32 Parbat then goes into Kabar Paktuna and
12:36 then near the Bandon the famous Bandon
12:40 at mentioned much in the Kipling
12:43 literature that's where river Kabul
12:46 joins it and then river Indas comes into
12:49 Punjab. AB Pakistani Punjab near a place
12:52 called Kalapani along Indas there are
12:55 many major projects and also along its
12:58 tributaries in the Pakistani controlled
13:01 side including Gilgit Baltistan which is
13:04 India's territory look at the map of
13:06 India there is no doubt about that
13:08 that's because there is a lot of incline
13:10 available the more incline you have in a
13:13 water course rivers stream whatever the
13:15 more power you can produce then the
13:19 indust
13:20 flows towards the sea towards Karachi if
13:23 you look at the map that's how it looks
13:26 and as it's flowing in that direction
13:28 the five rivers of Punjab the three
13:30 eastern rivers and then Chennab and
13:33 Jalam are also also have also after
13:37 crossing into Pakistani Punjab they are
13:39 also converging so they converge
13:41 together in a place called Pangjanad
13:44 Pangjanad five five rivers right five
13:47 rivers join there it becomes a much
13:49 bigger river and later later before
13:52 Sakur they join the Indas that is
13:56 sometimes called Satnut because five
13:58 Punjab rivers one Indas and one Kabul
14:01 river so it becomes Satnut that then
14:04 becomes a humongous river through
14:07 through much of the year it can be many
14:09 kilometers wide particularly during the
14:11 monsoon when water comes in from
14:13 different waterheds because it gets
14:16 water from Himalayan waterershed It also
14:19 it also gets the waters from the
14:21 Hindukush waters. So that is the system
14:23 right now and that is what the issue is
14:25 about. India is now saying that we don't
14:28 feel particularly bound by India's water
14:32 treaty which means what it doesn't mean
14:33 that India can immediately stop the flow
14:35 of water. India does not have the
14:37 infrastructure ready even if it wanted
14:39 to stop the flow of water. But it means
14:42 India stops sharing information. It
14:45 means projects that Pakistan might have
14:48 got injuncted through the Indas waters
14:51 tribunal. For example, the project on
14:54 Kishan Ganga river. Kishan Ganga on the
14:57 Pakistani side is called Nam river. So
15:00 as the river goes into Kishan Ganga in
15:04 the Pakistani occupied Kashmir area is
15:08 called Nam river. Nu m. there they have
15:13 also built a project called Nilm Jalam
15:16 project. They've been disputing Kishan
15:18 Ganga project with India although India
15:21 returns all the water it uses to
15:23 generate power to them. The Pakistani
15:26 argument however is that while you
15:28 return it's all right you return the
15:30 water to us but you don't return the
15:32 water to us in the same place. What that
15:35 means is Pakistanis say that you that
15:37 you use this water to generate
15:39 electricity and then you you let some of
15:42 it go into another tributary of the
15:45 Kishan Ganga river. So while it comes
15:47 and joins the Numm system, it does not
15:50 come where our Num Jam project is
15:53 located. So there is a dispute about
15:55 that. Pakistan's in international court
15:58 for that and also the other big project
16:00 on the Indian side Ratlay dam on on
16:03 Chennab river that also Pakistan has got
16:06 blocked Pakistan has got injuncted. So I
16:08 told you earlier when India wanted a
16:10 renegotiation what was that
16:12 renegotiation about? Mainly it was about
16:15 article 9 of the Indust treaty. What
16:18 does article 9 say? Article 9 says in
16:21 case of a dispute there will be three
16:23 things that three options that the two
16:25 sides will have. One to resolve it
16:27 bilaterally by talking with each other.
16:29 Second you can reach out to a neutral
16:32 expert and say that whatever the expert
16:34 says both of us will agree and third is
16:36 that you ask for the constitution of a
16:38 tribunal. A tribunal means each side
16:41 then nominates two members and the
16:43 chairman or chairperson sorry is is
16:46 named by the world bank. Its order is
16:49 binding also it can injunct either side.
16:53 Now India India did not dispute this
16:56 formulation. India just wanted a
16:58 hierarchy of options that first talk
17:02 bilaterally second appoint an expert
17:05 third have a tribunal. The situation the
17:08 current situation was that either side
17:10 to could take resort to anything. So
17:13 with Ratley for example India first said
17:16 India first said an expert an expert was
17:18 named Pakistan went went and said a
17:20 tribunal. So both processes are were
17:23 going on simultaneously. It was a
17:25 non-starter because the expert the
17:28 Pakistanis did not accept and the
17:30 tribunal India did not even nominate its
17:32 members. So India wanted that especially
17:35 besides other things that that India
17:38 wanted especially besides many other
17:40 things especially that article 9 amended
17:44 that is the larger issue the rest is a
17:46 matter of detail you can see satloj
17:49 there are some concerns that this could
17:51 trigger the Chinese into giving India
17:53 trouble because they are the upper
17:55 riparian when it comes to Indas Satloj
17:59 and Brahutra Indas anything the Chinese
18:02 do will affect the Pakistanis. So
18:05 unlikely they will do anything. Satloj
18:07 about 10% of Satloj's water comes from
18:10 comes from the Chinese side from from
18:13 the Tipatan side. So it's not that much
18:15 water but remember that water can come
18:18 in glacial bursts and that's where we
18:20 had a disaster not long ago and that is
18:24 that's a matter of concern. In fact,
18:26 India was very worried when after
18:29 Galwan, China had stopped sharing this
18:32 border data. I believe some of that has
18:34 started now or at least the resumption
18:36 of that process has been talked about.
18:39 The third is far in the east and that is
18:41 something we talked about in great
18:43 detail in Kataka the other day. That's
18:45 the new mega dam that the Chinese are
18:48 building on their side just because just
18:51 before just before the braotra does that
18:54 humongous bend and comes into India that
18:58 is a matter of concern that will take
19:00 time but you know history is not made of
19:02 fortnights or weeks or years history is
19:05 made of generations that's why it's
19:07 important that India accelerates the
19:09 work on the subansuri dam subansuri dam
19:12 will have a reservoir not a very big
19:14 reservoir But still a reasonable size
19:17 reservoir. It's a run of the river dam.
19:19 But that reservoir will be useful in
19:22 case there is a threat of flooding from
19:25 the other side because if you are being
19:27 flooded from the other side at least you
19:28 will be able to hold some water in this
19:31 reservoir. That is also indirectly the
19:34 function of some of the other run of the
19:37 river projects being constructed but
19:40 long delayed on rivers tributaries
19:43 coming into the brahutraat in case there
19:46 is a catastrophic flooding each one of
19:48 these could could hold some water from
19:51 the tributaries that is the larger
19:53 picture at which point I ask Moshmi
19:55 Dascupta to join in Moshmi thanks for
19:57 joining in you've been covering the
19:59 water issues very closely and also
20:01 tracking some of these projects you
20:03 visited some uh give us an idea of what
20:07 impact
20:09 this decision to hold the Indust water
20:12 treaty in a bay have uh well this
20:15 decision to put the treaty on hold so in
20:19 the short term you know it gives India
20:21 opportunity to fasttrack projects
20:24 fasttrack projects like the 850 megawatt
20:26 Ratlay hydropower project which is
20:28 coming up on the chain of river so right
20:31 now I I mean it it is under work but
20:34 Pakistan has taken both the Ratlay it
20:38 has objected to the both the Kishan
20:39 Ganga project which is which was
20:41 completed in 2018 and Ratlay on the
20:44 ground that you know it changes the flow
20:47 of the river and uh it will divert water
20:50 from the western river where ch where
20:54 Pakistan has unrestricted access. So in
20:56 fact Pakistan has gone to the court of
20:59 arbitration and uh India has gone to
21:02 neutral experts. So the world bank has
21:04 started two processes parallelly. So I
21:07 mean in the till the time that the
21:10 project are uh till the time that the
21:12 treaty is in a it gives India time if
21:15 they want to to expedite the you know
21:18 completion of the project. Also what it
21:21 all also what it means is that uh you
21:25 know since uh the treaty is no treaty
21:28 has has been temporarily suspended. So
21:31 uh India can uh flush the reservoirs uh
21:36 for instance the one in the Kishan Ganga
21:39 uh plant uh and fill it up. So the IWT
21:43 treaty mandated that uh flushing happens
21:46 only in during August during the peak
21:49 monsoon season. and flushing means
21:50 desilting the reserve oil and then
21:52 filling it up. So in the SWAT treaty
21:55 mandated that that h should happen only
21:57 in August but now because it has been
21:59 put on hold. So India can you know if it
22:02 wants it can flush the reservoir desill
22:05 the reservoir at any any time also it
22:08 gives India an opportunity if it
22:10 actually wants to build up storage
22:12 capacity on the Jalam main river. Right
22:14 now India doesn't has a storage capacity
22:16 on Jalam which is one of the western
22:18 rivers. So if India wants it can you
22:21 know it can uh devel it it can build a
22:24 dam it can it can build a storage
22:26 capacity it can build a barrage and to
22:29 regulate the water flow of Jalam uh so
22:33 that is another thing that will take a
22:35 long time that's going to take a long
22:37 time in the short term you know India
22:39 doesn't need to share dischar discharge
22:42 data with Pakistan or the flood data
22:44 with Pakistan which they are mandated to
22:47 do now under the indust water treaty
22:49 also it doesn't need to allow Pakistan
22:51 to uh you know tour uh sites of ongoing
22:56 and new projects on the on the on the on
22:59 the in this uh river basin which is
23:02 mandated under the treaty that any
23:04 project any new project that India is
23:07 building it has to you know share all
23:10 the information with Pakistan and
23:12 Pakistan can uh come and visit the site
23:15 and India has to allow it but now I They
23:18 are under no obligation to do that
23:20 because the treaty has been put in
23:21 abance. The important thing to
23:23 understand is that a treaty is in
23:25 obeyance. Treaty has not been abroated
23:27 just as the Pakistanis have put the
23:30 Shimla agreement on hold. Right. Right.
23:33 So what are the other projects which
23:36 have been planned or which are held up
23:37 or which are park built on the western
23:40 rivers. So on the western river uh for
23:43 instance Tishan Ganga project it was
23:45 completed in 2018 like I said but there
23:48 are other hydropower projects like the
23:51 uh Ratlay uh Pakadul, Kiru, Kawir so uh
23:55 which are under construction uh under
23:58 various stages of construction and all
24:00 these projects I mean they were put on
24:02 the fasttrack mode uh uh after 2016
24:06 after the UI attack Uri attack on the
24:08 army camp uh in Kash Kashmir. So there
24:11 was this uh there was this task force
24:14 that was set up under the then principal
24:16 secretary in the prime minister's office
24:18 Nepin Mishra to fasttrack these
24:20 projects. So work has been expedited
24:24 since then but uh it's yet to be
24:27 completed. So these are the main
24:28 projects that are coming up on the uh
24:31 western river and the eastern rivers. So
24:34 on the eastern river you have the Shapur
24:36 Kandi dam which has been completed but
24:40 uh I mean it will take some more time
24:42 for it to become operational because
24:45 though the reservoir is complete the two
24:47 hydroar plant uh will be completed by
24:50 2025 end. Yeah but but irrigation can
24:53 start. Yeah, irrigation because as far
24:55 as irrigation is concerned in fact and
24:57 it's it's a surprise it's it's Jammu and
25:00 Kashmir or Jammu region which is a
25:02 bigger beneficiary of irrigation from
25:04 this river than than Punjab that that's
25:07 how this was negotiated in 1979 Shik
25:11 Abdullah and Pakar Sim Badel then chief
25:13 minister they signed the agreement 1982
25:16 Mrs. Gandhi laid the foundation stone of
25:18 this project. It was supposed to be
25:20 completed in 1999 2025. We are still we
25:24 are still sitting here. In fact, if you
25:26 look at the area that will come under
25:29 irrigation
25:30 32,123 hectares will be in Jammu region
25:34 that is Katwa and Samba and about 5,000
25:37 hectares in Punjab and 206 megawatt
25:40 electricity will be produced which I
25:42 think is incidentally to the project.
25:44 The whole point is that this water
25:47 should not be going into Ravi river
25:49 because Pakistan then also once one it
25:51 ultimately goes into Pakistan because
25:53 soon after this the river becomes the
25:55 border between India and Pakistan and
25:57 then Pakistan can pull it out through
26:00 deep uh through deep tube wells from the
26:02 other side. So this is to protect that
26:04 water and bring it to the Indian side.
26:06 When this happens then India gets almost
26:09 100% access to almost 100% of the water
26:12 of the three eastern rivers. Yeah. uh
26:16 once the shapur kandi project is
26:18 complete and becomes operational and the
26:20 multij multi-purpose project gets
26:22 completed then uh I mean technically
26:25 India gets to utilize 100% of the uh
26:28 water from the eastern bar is some
26:30 additional water that comes up during
26:32 monsoon time which sometimes can become
26:34 as as much as 9 billion cubic meters
26:38 depend depending on the size of the
26:39 monsoon so if you have the reservoirs
26:41 you can you can hold most more of it in
26:44 fact earlier Here this is after after
26:47 the parliament attack in a cabinet
26:49 meeting in a CCS meeting of the Baj Pay
26:51 government this issue was brought up by
26:53 Eshwan Sina in one of the Baj Pay
26:56 government's cabinet committees and
26:57 security meetings after parliament
26:59 attack when oparakram was going on and
27:02 he said that terrorism is an atrocity by
27:06 the Pakistani establishment on our
27:09 people. So we should also do something,
27:11 India should do something that also
27:14 imposes punitive costs on Pakistan's
27:17 people. So they feel the pain and one
27:20 way of doing that was to deny them even
27:22 the small amounts of water from the
27:24 eastern rivers that was still going
27:27 there. So this thought has been an old
27:29 one and after that Nitan Gutkari once
27:31 said that I will build these dams and
27:33 then no water will go to Pakistan. Then
27:36 in the course of time he ceased to be
27:37 water resources minister also. And these
27:40 these projects sort of went along at the
27:42 usual Indian speed not with the kind of
27:45 urgency it should have had given the
27:48 strategic implications and the strategic
27:51 idea behind it. Yeah. I mean in fact
27:53 they were put on fasttrack mode in after
27:56 2016 after that uh highowered task force
28:00 was set up under Nependra Mishna. So uh
28:04 and and that that's why Shahur Gandhi
28:07 coming on stream is good news and
28:10 uj hopefully in the course of time will
28:13 happen but these are on our rivers these
28:15 are not on rivers that whose water
28:17 belongs to Pakistan although rivers as I
28:20 told you about the Ravi a tributary goes
28:23 into Pakistan and comes back both the
28:25 Ravi and the Satloj in the border areas
28:29 skirt Pakistan the treaty says the
28:31 Pakistanis can't interrupt any of that
28:33 water flow. Similarly, if you see a long
28:36 river like the Indas, it starts in Tibet
28:40 but it it goes through Ladak and right
28:44 across Pakistan and before it goes into
28:48 the Arabian Sea. It then breaks up into
28:50 tributaries. one of those tributaries
28:52 again goes through India a little bit
28:55 and that is where India has many
28:57 complaints with Pakistan because as if
28:59 that tributary changes directions rivers
29:01 rivers don't need visas to go anywhere
29:04 and river rivers don't need any gate
29:06 pass or any any security pass to go
29:09 anywhere they choose their own course so
29:11 so the
29:13 industry problem and some other problems
29:15 India has in that area India believes
29:18 that Pakistan has built something called
29:20 left bank outflow drain LBOD which
29:24 pushes more salt water to the Indian
29:27 side. So our soil becomes more marshy
29:29 and there's always a dispute about that.
29:31 So rivers are always a contentious issue
29:34 because rivers are very powerful and
29:37 that is why this policy shift by India
29:40 amounts to a very major move. You agree
29:43 Mshi? Yes. In fact today afternoon I was
29:46 interviewing the former Indian
29:48 commissioner for indust water Mr. PK
29:50 Sakenna who said that you know for a
29:52 long time India has felt that Pakistan
29:55 is using the Indust water treaty as a
29:57 political tool against India to stall
30:00 development in Jammu and Kashmir and you
30:02 know it's not I mean India is not
30:04 getting anything out of it. So in fact
30:07 uh India has been uh talking about
30:10 reviewing this treaty for quite some
30:12 time. first time in 2016 after the UI
30:14 attack uh I mean prime minister Modi had
30:17 said that you know they I mean the
30:19 treaty needs to be reviewed nothing
30:20 happened nothing much happened then but
30:22 then again in 2023
30:25 uh India wrote to Pakistan saying that
30:28 you know they want to renegotiate the
30:29 treaty and uh nothing again no response
30:33 from Pakistan India followed it up again
30:35 in 2023 2024
30:38 uh that you know uh we want to review
30:40 the treaty nothing happened. So this
30:43 time around India is saying that you
30:45 know it is I mean it has put it on aance
30:48 and in fact Mr. Sakana said that this is
30:50 the first step towards abrogating the
30:52 treaty. I see. So so to that extent
30:56 India has crossed the policy Rubicon.
30:58 Yeah. And and it's an irony because
31:00 Rubicon in sort of Roman history is
31:03 actually a river. Right.
31:09 [Music]
31:09 [Applause]
31:11 [Music]
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