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Entrevistas Conaendi 2025 - Internacionais
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Argentina Argentina
Alexandro. for
I don't know. [Music]
Principal [Music]
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forces. [Music]
for [Music]
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like gracias.
I have to talk into the camera.
So first of all,
>> so first of all, thank you for being
here and I watched your presentation and
you said some tips about how to learn
more about AI and one of your tips was
to go to conferences and take courses
like for example. Can you say more about
important to come to places like this.
>> Yes, this is
the the conferences like Koni and all
sorts of other conference are really the
the key. Yeah. To learn the basics. This
is you can learn a lot in school. You
can learn a lot in courses but here you
get the real experience the real use
cases of what people are doing and in
particular on AI there's more and more
papers showing their use cases of AI
which you can then also take and try to
implement on your use cases and try to
take it to the next step and then
present your results again to get into
this exchange because together we can do
so much more that If it's just you
working on your own problem and your own thing,
you can look in and you come back.
>> Exactly. This is when you're talking I'm
looking to you and then I'm looking back
into the camera.
>> You're going to No problem. And you said
also that a lot of technology and stuff
and the farms part took a lot of my
attention also. So about the human part
and how the time and everything. Can you
just Try to summarize this part for us.
How about the human part in the
transformation is the most important and
how time and money you have to take time
and wait this anxiety to get there.
>> Yes. The I think one of the core parts
is most of us are have kind of either
were trained into using some technology
or studied physics or math or some
engineering and we all very yeah we we
all know how to work on technology
but we often forget that the technology
actually has to be used by humans
and with the digital transformation we
are coming into something where we have
more and more groups which have to work
together. So actually the human vector
now that we're using more technology the
human factors are getting even more important.
important.
So this is why in my experience if I
look into companies which are trying to
use AI, robotics, uh digital
transformation, all the modern things,
yeah, they kind of have some success in
the beginning but then after half a
year, a year of development, they see,
oh, my management doesn't like it. My
employees don't want to use it. Um
it's just a shiny toy which doesn't
bring me anything real. Um and there are
so many human reasons why projects are
failing. Perhaps it's also that we do
not have the right skill sets and or we
are putting our projects onto somebody
who has already a workload of 120%.
So the human aspect is actually more
important or becoming even more
important than what we had in the past.
So that is the one thing I can tell you
is if you want to really get working
start with some training start with
getting a little bit knowledge of
technology because you will need it
later on but at some point get somebody
external to help you have a look on the
human aspects because we are all not
trained in taking the human aspects with
us. This is something I also had to
learn. This is I'm a physicist and for
me it was always yes I have a problem I
developed the technology and then I roll
this out and I'm done with it.
Unfortunately I also tried it in the
beginning of my NDE 4.0 journey and I
saw that my consulting activities in the
beginning weren't really successful
because actually nobody wanted to listen
to me
and then we kind of turned this whole
story around and started to do workshops
where we actually we didn't tell now the
people what we were think that they
should be doing. No, we were listening
to what they were telling us. We were
using methods to get more out of the
humans so that finally we together as a
group could develop a future for that
company which then is giving us yes
something everybody really wants and
everybody really believes in because
about and
then you can bring for example say about
not a hint to the inspector and not who
trust and know about this and please
bring your book to the this part of the
conversation. Okay. >> Okay.
>> So the NDE4.0 do
is the supposed fourth revolution in ND.
We started with yeah doing some yeah
looking at our components and perhaps
using some our human senses to see
what's going on with our components to
see if we manufactured something. Is
that something we want to use? Yes or
no? And that is something we were we are
now doing for thousands of years. In the
beginning, it was some Yeah. Even if you
produced some sword, you were using a
small hammer or something like that,
banging on it to see, oh, will that
thing break while I'm doing something
with it?
And then it developed. We were using
procedures. We were using magnifying
glasses, hammers, tools.
Then we got into something where we used
physic physical knowledge to actually
look deeper into the components like
using ultrasonics or x-ray or infrared
or whatever which also enabled us
looking into the components. So this was
the and then came the third revolutions
with all the digital using a digital UT
device using a digital X-ray device
and now we are coming to this fourth
revolution and we are kind of in the
middle of this fourth revolution and
this fourth revolution it's the the the
fourth industrial revolution that name
was coined 2011 in at the Hanover fair
in Germany
and the 4.0 that term was coined then
somewhere in 2017 and
and
but it wasn't that the revolution really
had started back then people could see
that something will happen but they
didn't really know what it will be in
essence. So since then it has developed
a lot and we could see a lot of emerging
technology develop to a state so that
they are now really
shaping what NDE 4.0 what industry 4.0
to know what digital transformation will
eventually be and currently the hottest
topic is clearly artificial
intelligence. In my eyes if we think
about in two years at a bane uh Kenji in
in two years or if we think about the
world conferences in three years in Argentina
AI will most likely be the topic
everybody is speaking about.
And there is so much to it and there is
so much happening. If we think about
those large language models, there's
every half year there is a model coming
out which is a factor 100 better than
all the models before. And now we're
coming to aentic AIS and AI agents which are
are
supporting us better than it was ever
before which can actually also correct
things which can access data sources
which can access our instruments perhaps
where we can automatically connect some
NDE data source automatically to our AI
and then using a large language model to
actually process some of our NDE data automatically.
automatically.
And I know that I've talked yesterday
with somebody from Petroas and they were
telling me that they already started
using AI agents to actually do exactly
that and they want to put up a pretty
interesting yeah
group here in Brazil to work on those
topics. How to make this the next step
in NDE.
But besides a AI, there is more to come.
There is and with because with those AI
agents currently what you have to do is
you for every access to every data
source you need to program an individual interface
interface
but we can have thousands of data
sources. So programming thousands of
interfaces is perhaps not the thing we
all want to do. So having open
interfaces, open data formats will be
one of the next essential steps to make
us really gather all that data so that
we can integrate all of that into our AI
solution or
we don't need AI for all of it. We could
also just do this gathering all the data
so that we and also we have currently an
NDE. If I think about a typical NDE
inspector, a typical NDE inspector
actually uses about 50% of his time for
administrative functions. Reading okay,
where do I have to go to? Reading a
procedure, understanding the procedure,
going to some location, then writing
some reports, then correcting reports,
corresponding with the customer, sending
something to the customer, writing some invoice.
invoice.
>> There's a lot of stuff going on. where
the inspector has to do something which
he's not trained for
and we need him urgently to actually do inspections.
inspections.
So if we would take all of those small
steps and have a workflow system which
could actually support this inspector to
come up with yeah to to have an easier
way of handling all his administrative
functions. it would also be a great
benefit for our NDE society or for any
our ND ecosystem. So I hope I have shown
a little bit of there is a lot to it. AI
is just the beginning.
There will be so much more to come and
we tried to talk about this a little bit
in our book the world of NDE 4.0 know
which is also available from abangi in
Portuguese language and
the in this book we painted a little bit
a picture of the future
so that you it gives you an impression
of what could be some of the use cases
but again we
we doing this for us as humans and there
is so much so many possibilities that
you might be
where should I start? So that is one of
the key things and you need to work on a
a good road map a good road map
including human factors including the
technology development so that at the
end you really reach something which
brings you benefits and have some early
on success stories which you can also
show your management and show them oh
this is why NDE 4.0 know is so great but
then also have some longer term goals so
that which you perhaps can reach in 3
years or in 5 years or in 10 years. So
that because the real big use cases the
real big things bringing you value will
take some time and it will take you some
money to get there. But if you have some
quick success stories in between you can
already show the value you are bringing.
And then finally down in 10 years you
can really show the big use case and
then everybody will be satisfied.
>> So a lot of question we have more
questions now and that's why we we need
groups and and groups for this to
discuss because that's the moment we
need to
>> what's going to happen.
>> Uh I am here with uh two special guests
uh from the American Society for Let me
let me start again.
>> Keep going. Don't don't cut it.
I'm here with uh two special guests from
the American Society for Non-destructive
Testing. I'm here with Mr. Paul Lang,
which I uh later I will ask him to
present himself and with Mr. David
Bajula, which I I will also ask you to
to introduce yourself. So, please. >> Sure.
>> Sure.
>> Hello everyone. So, my name is Paul
Lang. Uh, I am the chief global strategy
officer at AS&T and I also have another
title. Uh, I'm also the executive
director of AS&T certification services
that oversees certification
accreditation for AS&T. And, um, I'm
happy to be here. It's been a great
event and I'm glad we have the
opportunity to sit down for a few
moments and and talk about what we're
all passionate about and that's NDT.
David, please.
>> Thank you. My name is David Bula. I'm a
past president of AS&T, but I'm also
currently the Pan-American
Federation President, but more
importantly, on behalf of AS&T, I serve
on the certification management team. I
am the chairman of the certification
management committee within AS&T and
happy to be here with the Bendy and
sharing in all the good passion of NDT
that this guy here right here has.
>> Thank you. Let me ask a couple of
questions about ASN. Uh how old is ASN?
How many members? Uh ASN has
members. Uh shoot, we're
somewhere just over 20,000
members, I believe. Um
hate to say that's not my specialty.
>> Yeah, sure.
>> I'm on the technical side, but I I think
we're somewhere by
ballpark number.
>> We we celebrated our 75th anniversary in
in 2018. So we are over 80 years in
operation. AS&T.
>> Is it the old oldest society in the world?
world?
>> I think it may be. I don't know exactly
but it is one of the oldest societies
for sure. Yes.
>> Uh let's start talking about uh
certification. One of the major concerns
nowadays is uh regarding the artificial
intelligence. How do you perceive this?
What is the impact that you you see in
the future uh
regarding the certification regarding
the people working in the front line? I
mean those which put the hands there uh
every day. So what is your perception
about this?
So I um
so I think what AI has done, ML, all
these new technologies is uh really make
us now rethink how we do certification.
Um what are the important parts? What
are the important competencies and
skills? Um are we looking at the right
things now as we introduce AI into into
the NDT um field? you know where does it
work best to uh enhance the technician's
capabilities to do testing and
everything and with that how does it
work with certification you know do we
need to look at certification a little
differently uh about how we certify
individuals what their strengths are
skills Dave gave a great um presentation
yesterday you know about skill sets
about competency versus certification
and how that's going to look in the
future. So, um I think what it's done is
one, it's accelerated
uh how we look at things and how we're
going to have to come to solutions and
two, it's starting to really open up the
conversation of what the certification
look like in the future. And we're
starting to get that feeling that it's
not going to look any way like it is
currently today. So I that I think
that's what we're looking at now and
that's what AS&T, you know, is starting
to focus on is how do we make a
transition because we believe there's a
transition coming and you know we just
want to make beyond the cusp of that. We
want to lead that transition. Um, so we
got to get our I don't want to say ducks
in a row, but we really need to start
looking in depthly about
what are we actually certifying
individuals for into what are those
competencies and do they need to change
when we introduce AI, ML, assisted
analysis, all these neat things that are
coming in. Uh, so that's that's my take
from the from the AS&T perspective. you
know, uh I'm sure Dave, he's on the
front lines working it. So, uh you know,
he's got his his take on it, which we
heard yesterday in the presentation,
which I thought was very good for
everyone. So, I think that's where we're
at. We're are we're we're watching the
technology move quickly, and we're
trying to respond to it, take it in, and
see what changes we need to make in the
landscape in the future in order to use
it effectively uh for the good of NVT.
would like to add anything.
>> Yeah. So I agree with that 100%. I also
believe that days of old certification
was based on qualifications.
Days of new certification is going to be
based on competency. I foresee the
future being an assessment of competency
on specific tasks. In other words,
there's entirely possible in the future
we will have technicians that are
qualified and competent to collect data.
We will have a separate group of
technicians that evaluate data. We will
have a separate set of technicians that
review data and approve data. And then
there will also be an auditing element.
So it's entirely possible we could have
a four tier system. not necessarily
level one, two, three, four, but but a
four tier system where AI is worked into
that model and there is more than just
data collection, data review, data
auditing and data approval and almost
all the NDT data or modalities or
methods that we do have the capability
of being digital. Even magnetic particle
we can record it, we can use lasers, we
can do all sorts of things. So I think
all the NDT data of the future being digital.
digital. >> Well,
>> Well,
uh let me change a little bit the
subject. You are also the new president
of the Paname Federation and we are
going to have a a a congress, the Paname
Congress. Uh could you tell us a little
bit about where we will be and when we
will be? uh could you tell us a little
bit about this?
>> Sure, absolutely. So, I'm honored to
currently be elected to be the president
for the Pan-American NDT Federation and
the expectation is that the United
States will have uh the next PAN NDT
Congress conference in the US most
likely in Miami. Uh we have yet to
determine the exact location, but we do
know it will be in 2029, the next
Pan-American Federation conference.
>> Oh, good news.
>> In Miami,
>> most likely keep it a secret.
>> Okay. And uh my last question while we
are here uh at the Kona uh and uh we we
have this relationship aband
how how do you see this this
collaboration what are the next steps?
>> So um
it's it's a pleasure to be down here
down here for a couple reasons. One for
the the congress obviously the
conference. Second was for the
Pan-American to get exposure to that and
and be with Dave as he takes over that
that role. The third is our relationship
with a bendy particularly. Um as I
mentioned before we start looking at new
technologies and maybe certification has
to change. I think the societies need to
have a deeper relationship uh and an
understanding of the direction of that
so that we can work together you know as
societies NDT societies in educating and
informing and eventually putting out the
requirements that could be a change in
how we do certification how we do
accreditation and uh in order to lead
the way I think the societies
have to have those conversations have to
be connected with one another so this is
an opportunity for Bendy and AS&T to
work uh even closer with aligning our
certification programs and then start
talking about what that future looks
like um so we can start moving the
transition that you know I think we all
know is coming and you know you hate to
be going off in different paths because
it's never successful so you have to do
it uh within groups and I think that's
what the NDT societies are there for is
to be able to help the industry inform
the indust industry, educate the
industry and uh and to respond to their
needs. And their needs right now are how
do you do certification? You know, with
the workforce that's diminishing, uh
it's even harder for the industry to to
do those um to do those certification
services things, those uh inspection
services. And I think the societies need
to step up and help industry uh with the
answer to that. I mean, that's what
we're here for. So, it's been a great
week. We've been able to do a lot of
talking about that about what the future
holds and alignment of our programs and
to celebrate you know the Pan-American
uh u federation of NDT have a great time
at this uh conference and uh look
forward to the next time we get to see you.
you.
>> We too
thank you very much for being here.
Thank you very much for this uh quick
chat and uh let's see what uh the future
will uh holds for us.
>> You're very welcome.
>> Absolutely. It will be bright.
>> Congratulations on a wonderful conference.
conference.
>> Thank you.
>> It's been a joy to be here. Take care everyone.
So I uh Uh I live in the United States
but I'm originally from Canada from
Quebec. Uh but honestly I believe that
the challenges are the same everywhere
globally. Uh one of the main challenge
that uh our industry is facing is a
workforce. We've mentioned it many times
today but the workforce is uh decreasing
considerably worldwide. And uh not only
that but we also have an advocacy
problem with NDT which means that not
many people of aware of what NDT is. And
so not only we soon enough we won't have
a lot of people to work but those people
won't be aware that NDT exists as a
work. Uh so uh I think that we have some
work to do on how to advocate for our
industry. Uh but uh also we'll have to
find new technologies uh to help uh
So it's here. So just you tell me so
about how is it in your country right
now? What is the opportunities and the
challenges you are facing in your
country name?
>> Oh in our country
>> in your country. Yes. So I can make this
um after that for our social media use
that and for our magazine also and then
you can say how do you expect the
future? I know you said a lot about
>> and from an ND standpoint.
>> Yes. Yeah. >> Okay.
>> Okay. >> Yeah.
>> Yeah.
>> And so you can just say and you can pass
>> So I'm from Germany. So this is and but
I think in Germany we have the same
problem which everybody has currently
around the globe. We have a shortage on
qualified personnel
and this will not be getting easier over
time. So we have to find a solution and
for me technology is something which can
support actually
this work.
It can play or it can take out this this
uh or yeah which can support so that we
Paul Lang. Nope. Not doing it yet.
They're doing it now.
Paul Lang. Um going to give the United
States perspective. Uh I I work at AS&T
in the certification services NDT area.
Um, I agree with what everybody has been
talking about. Uh, and it's almost like
an epiphany for me as I look at the
United States landscape is technology is
developing quicker and quicker,
not due to efficiencies per se, but more
to take care of what's really um,
hurting the NDT industry, and that is
the workforce. Emily talked about not
knowing about NDT which is difficult in
itself but I think the worth the
workforce um that we're seeing the
reduction in it is really picking up the
pace in technology on how we offset that
shortage. So I think the technology part
is really um an area that is uh
enlightening and and it will help the
industry and it has its challenges
though um slow for adoption. Um I think
many here had mentioned that it needs to
be proven. Um, but I think the
technology, AI, ML, those things that
will assist the NDT industry is going to
be a necessity, not to replace humans,
Hi, this is Sajish Beavu from Singapore.
You would hardly see us in the world
map. We are a little red dot. uh however
uh for NDT we do have a lot of
challenges because we are a small
country lack of resources especially
human capital is very less attracting
young talents is very difficult in
entity however we are blessed by
surrounding big countries we have a
migrant population so we have a lot of
entity inspectors uh crossing borders
and working in Singapore
what we are looking into is now how do
we reduce inspections how do We run our
systems live by having absolute
monitoring so that we know the system in
much early it's no matter it's a rail
systems or aerospace or even our oil and
gas infrastructures we are pitching more
on condition monitoring real life
applications adding drones adding uh
inline inspections so these technologies
are picking up fast at the same time we
are also looking into real-time
monitoring of data and uh periodic
maintenance data to come back. So AI and
uh machine learning is part of the game
and you will see more of these and less
of inspections and uh keep our assets
and resources well and keep safe for
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