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#97 - Chris Mosier | Trailblazing Trans Athlete

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i'm super glad you've come on chris and

one thing i've just noticed as well is

that i've had it i've had beard jealousy before

before

but i've never had mustache jealousy

like this is a this is a brand this is a

brand new one like and i the mustache

that i can grow is i just end up looking

like cat weasel

and it's just it's it's no it's no good

but uh that that one is absolutely

phenomenal um

but we we've just been chatting and

we've just spoken about your your um

your recent injury so

i usually start with saying how have you

been um i imagine the last however long

the injury's been going on has been

challenging but yeah how have you been

yeah i've been uh surviving is kind of

how i've been saying it and i've yeah

you know it's really

i've been i've been great i've been

blessed i've been uh everything has been

wonderful but i'm trying to keep my

vibrations high trying to keep the

energy up trying to attract healing and

uh you know keep my mindset in the

getting better every single day sort of

idea but i'll tell you man it's been

tough i had hip surgery on a torn labrum

and a bone shave at the beginning of

august and it was timing-wise kind of

perfect because competitions have been

canceled for me my world championship

that was supposed to happen

internationally in the fall was

cancelled so my schedule got cleared

that is the best time to take care of an

injury that's been causing me pain for

several years

but i did not realize how

lonely and isolating it would feel to be

injured and even coming out of covid you

know where we had lockdowns where i'm at

in i'm currently in chicago illinois in

the united states and we had lockdowns

for several months where i wasn't with

my community i wasn't training with

people but to be forced into that

position of sitting on the couch you

know one thing i realize that i don't do

very well as an athlete is sit still

yeah i is there

when did this sort of injury start to to

crop up is there a moment when it came

out because i understand you pulled out

the olympic trials through injury was it

was it this that

it was not this actually right yeah you know

know

injury right so the bodies are amazing

and bodies are just so incredible in how

they compensate and how they

get you through right so uh in the in

the lead up for the olympic trials in

january 2020 i was doing race walking so

i went to the 50k olympic trials in race

walking and that was a new sport for me

i had picked that sport up in early 2019

uh just with a sort of idea of trying

something new of being a beginner and a

novice at something and i was sort of at

a down point in my duathlon training so

duathlon is run bike run

and so i qualified for the olympic

trials in that lead up of doing 50k and

really jumping my mileage and

quite honestly probably having

ineffective technique which is super

important in in race walking i tore my

meniscus and so i pulled out of the

olympic trials with a torn meniscus on

the same side as this torn hip labrum so

uh you know best i could say is it's

probably possibly related but i've also

been an athlete for you know three

decades and so that's also you know just

overuse it's a very common injury for

athletes it just doesn't cause everyone

pain and mine was causing me pain for

about at least 18 months and so there

wasn't a moment where i was like snap

you know you know you're hurt this is

like one of those things as an athlete

like am i pushing too hard well i had a

big training block maybe i'm just tired

i stood up a lot yesterday and yeah i

walked a lot at

on vacation or whatever my my lower back

hurts my hamstrings a little tight you

know all of those things and

it just took a long time to put those

pieces together to say okay i think this

is what the actual cause is

have you

experienced sort of a

feeling of wanting to push through it

did you feel like i need to keep this

athlete mindset and and

and

did you feel connected to your body in a

way where you are okay there there is

something wrong here or yeah like you

were just kind of talking about is that

we as athletes very often associate pain

with this

bang i'm i'm on it i'm i'm heading down

the right road i'm going to create that

adaptation that i'm seeking and

this is something that is a part of the process

process

but did you find yourself falling into

that mindset or were you

was there maybe an idea that i could be

doing myself damage here

oh there's definitely an idea of this is

not a good pain you know i think i i'm

familiar uh with that idea of being

comfortable being uncomfortable and so

you know especially in running there's a

lot of pushing to really dark places

really painful places but pain in a way

of like i'm working hard and i'm going

up against the limits of where i'm

currently at to get to a better place

and this was just like

fire this is just blazing pain uh so it

was pretty clear but the problem with

you know with it is and i think this is

uh something that a lot of athletes

encounter is that so when it flares up

you know oh this is clearly something wrong

wrong

okay maybe if i just take a a day off or

i'll go easy today or for me i have

multiple options of training so i can

swim i can bike i can run oh i'll just

swim today and see if that loosens it up

and oh i feel better today you know so

because it wasn't a persistent you know

full-time 10 out of 10

and and i think that's another thing

right is like as an athlete i i think my

pain meter is broken i have a 2 and i

have a 12. and there's really

um you know and and it's kind of a

full-time like i have a lot of aches and

pains that are full-time um so so it

became kind of confusing with this one

and it really took getting to a point

where uh i think as an athlete it kind

of pushed beyond where a

non-athlete would have called it would

have would have pulled the plug yeah

yeah

it's it's a topic that i've spoken about

a previous episode

about this pushing through pain and

knowing where that that limit is and

you're so right with with triathlon and

duathlon and even racewalking like there's

there's

there's just a it's a non-negotiable

like it's just such an on the ghost boy

and that's what many sports that pain

very and and it's knowing where that

good stress and bad stress just flips

and then you're like okay i've i've

pushed i used to describe that i was

pushing i would find my boundary

to push it

potentially break like and try not to do

it and have a catastrophic break where

it requires surgery and a long layoff

but enough where i could then push it

and then know where that boundary was so

that i could get us close to it and then

pull back

i i remember so many times where i was

literally about to tear a hamstring and

and

i stopped and it looked crazy it looked

mad like at the time like my teammates

are going what are you doing like why

are you stopping i've got i am literally

three steps away from tearing this

hamstring like an intel sure enough you

go to the physio like geez you caught

this early like and it stopped it from being

being

six weeks off and it was like three days so

it's a very fine line and tuning into

your body and the awareness of your body

is a really big

part of being an athlete and knowing when

when

that barrier and that that boundary is crossed

crossed

yeah i think that's that's right on and

i think there were a lot of injuries

that i caught three days before you know

my hamstring hamstring exploded but but

for uh unfortunate reasons you know this

this didn't work out that way but um i i

feel like i have a really

acute sense of my body and not just as

an athlete but because um so much of my last

last

you know two decades of life have been

really body focused in how i

exist in my body how i show up in my

body and

i do a lot of paying attention to my

body and i think i think all athletes do

you know our bodies are our machines and so

we need to be very in tune with them

fortunately for me i have not i'm

i always laugh because when you show up

at some of these uh triathlons right and

like ironman races there's a very

specific stereotype a caricature of the

person who's doing these these races and

uh i've i've never been a person to shy

away from taking a day off if i need it

and so i think that's been a real

benefit for the longevity of my career

is that

you know if if i'm if i'm going on

vacation i'm gonna take a couple days

off and i and i feel okay with that you

know and even in the build up to world

championships or things like that that i

need that balance of mental well-being

and physical well-being and i have a

pretty clear boundary of where that's at

and i am very forgiving of myself if if

life happens and i miss a session

because i don't think that

one you know one session is not going to

make or break uh you know my my race or

my outcomes so

i think that part of that is being

really process focused too of i love the

training as much as i love the races i

actually probably love the training more

than i love the races um you know and

the races are are the cherry on top of

all of the work and the process of

getting you know acquainted with my body

in a new way of of pushing it to new

areas and new boundaries and um and then

you know working through whatever mental

components go along with that

yeah and especially with i think you've

got to enjoy the training for you like

there's so much of it to before the i

can't imagine what the race to

training ratio is for for the events you

do but it's going to be in the the high

percentages um was there was this

something that you felt this injury has

you've learned like it's taught you is

there a new lesson that you felt you've

learnt with this one

it's that it's really lonely to be

injured and and really isolating and

that was you know i think i i really had

to to sit with that because

i in the in having my torn meniscus you

know that was uh kind of dealing with

that at the very start of the covet 19

pandemic where everyone was everyone was

put away and so because i couldn't

access my physio i couldn't access the

the medical facilities because things

were shut down i did all of that rehab

myself so i had a really strong focus i

had a plan i had uh you know an agenda

and i had a purpose and and i i felt

good doing that by myself and i didn't

need other people around for that and

you know honestly i think i just felt

like the sadness of that first injury in

january 2020

and and had to process that sadness of

having this incredible experience to go

to the olympic trials and then having

the extreme disappointment of having an

injury that would put me out of

competition for many months

this time around because all of

social life is sort of coming back

and i think you know i've been creating

that connection uh craving those those

interactions that i just haven't had i

wouldn't say i'm a very social person uh

i'm i'm

probably a pretty big introvert and i'm

pretty comfortable being alone but to to

have to be

in a situation where i literally

couldn't get out of bed without my wife

picking up my leg you know i couldn't

get into the car without her helping to

pull my leg up and put my foot in the

vehicle and that sort of dependency was

it was a challenge for me

and then just like this idea i just

reconnected with my teammates and with

my people that i coach and and the folks

at the community

um we have a place called edge athlete

lounge here that's an incredible

community resource for athletes and that

as soon as i had surgery i felt like i

was off the map i felt like you know

like just like out of sight out of mind

totally disconnected everybody's lives

go on and you know i was just sitting

there like wow

how long is this process of coming back

so for this has been a very different

injury for me and i think i'm just at

the point where i'm i'm starting to

i turn the corner into feeling good

which i know is the most dangerous piece

because you're not quite healed yet but

you feel good and want to push

um i caught myself i ran across the

parking lot to get to the car the other

day i was like no you're not supposed to

run yet don't

don't do that um

but you know i'm feeling that

i'm i'm starting to see progress and

that's really exciting and now i just

know i have to be patient and i think

that's the hardest part

i've felt that loneliness before and

it's a really challenging part like i

just so

vividly remember things like

turning up for a training session and

the whole team's there and and you

you

everyone's like right let's go plan

sorted let's go out and train and you're

like i want to jump out the door and

there's you just can't like physio grabs

you sit down don't do anything and it's

i i my advice and i don't know if you

have you did something similar is

to if you if you do get injured and you

feel that loneliness is to really lean

upon the other things in your life like

and try to

i say i guess distract yourself because

you will find yourself just

just

constantly ruminating it over in your

mind over and over and it will tear you

apart but also you'll you'll try to rush

the process i think whereas if you can

distract yourself from something else

then the healing process just will

happen you'll be in a better space

physically mentally and that stress

level hopefully will come down and if

it's an inflammation thing hopefully

those markers come down as well so yeah

i don't know if you had any way in which

you combated that loneliness and

anything else you focused on outside of

of your training

yeah i know that that's great advice um

i think i think it's it's right on i

can't think of one thing that i actually

did focus my efforts on you know i

balance being an athlete with being an

activist and so a lot of my work has been

been um

has been combating the

horrible legislation that's happening in

the united states around transgender

youth participating in sports and you

know i

have made it my life's work to be a

person who is a resource for people uh

who is a resource for organizations and

teams and leagues through my website

transathlete.com and and

putting myself out there to

be a voice for people who don't feel

that they can speak up because it's

unsafe or because they are the targets

of discrimination themselves

so i felt like a lot of my

downtime because i was on my computer

more became more stressful actually in

terms of you know i i certainly had

enough to keep me busy but it wasn't the

relaxing rejuvenating refreshing

you know distraction that i probably had

hoped for it's still very much related

to my day-to-day

so it wasn't much of a relief

well it's got you you've got purpose in

what what you're doing in your time off

which is more than a lot of people can

can save for whenever they're having

their downtime and if anything it can

take a lifetime for people to search for

that that type of purpose

but the topic in which you are

working in it's it's

so it's got so much controversy around

it so much people are talking about it there's

there's

so many voices that are yelling on

social media and i i mean

just from maya i have an awareness

of this subject that i don't know

everything and i i am sure enough going

to learn a lot as well as

try to unpack your experiences and i think

think

just even through delving into your

story there and going on

transatlantic.com like i've learned a

ton already and

and

it i can't speak for the uk legislation

i know the american legislation is ultimately

ultimately

not just in in this subject but in many

subjects and policies is

from an outsider looking in it's broken

but there's no perfect system um

and i i just think yeah

the the thing that i've come out of the whole

whole

this whole process of before this

conversation was that i i need to be

open that i don't know everything and i

think that's a

for me i feel good in that being a place

to start like i

i'm comfortable

not knowing what i don't know because

then it means i can learn um

yeah that that's that's why i'm excited

about this this conversation for sure

and the topics we're gonna get into

yeah that's you know the i think the

best approach and certainly another

athlete mindset

moment right of saying like i don't know

what i don't know and i'm always willing

to learn something and and once you

learn it you can't unlearn it right so

it's your responsibility then once you

have this information to do something

with it and to you know to be better um

i've always been drawn to athletes and

you know my role models when i was

growing up were athletes who were social

justice advocates which i didn't realize

as a eight-year-old uh you know person

assumed to be a little white girl like

that someone like jesse owens or jackie

robinson or muhammad ali or john carlos

and tommy smith would be the people that

i'd be looking to as examples of

what i aspired to be

and you know i think that when

we are athletes we have an incredible

platform and that's been the you know

the gift of my life to use this platform to

help educate and provide visibility for

not only people who are like me but

people who don't believe they know

someone like me

yeah i i this just comes to mind is i

don't know if you've seen it or read it

a book by michael bennett nfl

um forget his position for seattle

seahawks he wrote a book called things

that make white people uncomfortable

and him and his brother it's a

phenomenal book and reading it obviously

talks a lot about colin kaepernick and

really just

talking through why those movements are

happening and

that's a really important and i i too have

have

resonated with those athletes that you

mentioned people like muhammad ali

people that stood up for something and

and had a purpose behind them i think

that's a huge

thing for any athlete to have because if

you are going to have a platform like

utilize it people just look to you for

everything um and it should not be

shined away from and that book

it really shone through why they're

doing it why everyone was taking the

knee and the the reasons and the stories

behind it that's the

nuts and bolts of everything um

but i i want to get into just where it's

started for you so what was it like in

your in your early years um

growing up

with your parents with with siblings

um yeah start wherever you want to start there

there

yeah sport was really something that

came to me really early because

no matter how disconnected i felt from

the kids in my neighborhood

outside of the corner of the field as

soon as we were playing a game all of those

those

fears and

self-consciousness and sort of any

bullying or teasing sort of stopped

because i was a good athlete and that

was something there was a space where i

found validation

at a very young age and decided to pour

myself into it because it's felt like a

safe space which is really interesting

for me to say right now because sport is

such an unsafe space for people like me

but as a as a young

uh you know

so as a signed female at birth raised

and socialized as female i grew up

playing girls and women's sports and

yeah as a young as a young

person assumed to be a tomboy you know i

sort of got a pass in terms of my gender expression

expression but

but uh

on the corner of the field was it was

accepted it was welcomed it was embraced

it was um

it was celebrated actually because i was

a good athlete and those sort of you

know being a tomboy and being a good

athlete sort of were synonymous i guess

at the time that i was growing up for

whatever reason

and you know i would say i had a very

happy childhood in terms of playing and

feeling uh

just uniquely like myself i had a very

sure awareness as a young person that i

wasn't like my brother

who's a little bit younger than me but i

also wasn't like the girls in my class

and so i i just always felt like me i

was just chris and people kind of just

treated me like i was

a separate entity

and like we didn't have the words

transgender we didn't have i never knew

a trans person didn't have an

understanding of what that even meant

and you know i just

existed as myself and i think around

junior high uh you know puberty time was

sort of when uh you know things sort of

became more troublesome for me in people

questioning who i was which then made me

question myself

and there was a lot of

harassment and teasing that sort of went

along with that

when i think back about it i i don't

ever really think about it in the

bullying context or having like a a

really hard time there were tons of

bullying situations and people making

comments and you know specifically in

playing sports even in high school

became less of a safe space i had a

great jump shot playing basketball and the

the

harassment that people would you know were

were

sort of uh

trash talk that people would do is are

you a guy or a girl right and so like

like even on the on the court i was

being questioned about my gender and i

think more of that was about my style of

play and my athleticism than it was

about my

expression of gender because on the on

the court i had a ponytail like all the

other girls i had the same uniform you

know like in a lineup in a photo

would be largely the same and it was i

think it was through my

expression of movement and my expression

of athleticism that people then

began to use that as a way to

sort of criticize me or try to tear me down

down

um probably not knowing that every time

they said that internally i was like yes

i just i just couldn't share that with

people i didn't know the language or the

terminology to sort of share that with

other people but that was exciting to me

is i was going to say before you you said

said

you got into sort of like your teenage

years and it became more troublesome in that

that

pre-teen age

were you happy like because you kind of

were doing you you mentioned that you

were doing your own thing you were just

being yourself and i think any child you

look at

at a really young age sort of around

that i guess 10 they're just being

themselves and obviously we lose that in

in our

our lives and do you think it was

other people's expectations

of you that started to create that

troublesome and that that

that friction

with with your identity

yeah and that started at age four my

earliest memory of sort of being called

out about my gender was running around

the neighborhood with the little kids on

a hot summer day and we all had our

shirts off and my aunt pulled me around

the back of the house and said you can't

run around with your shirt off little

girls don't do that and that's the

earliest memory i have of saying okay well

well

you know i i don't see any difference

between all these four-year-old bodies

like we all look the same and it's hot

and i don't understand you're saying i'm

a little girl so i can't do that you

know i had uh fallen in love with

skateboarding probably around the time

of being seven or eight years old and i

was you know into skateboarding

magazines and watching videos and you

know this is like pre youtube so

actually like vhs videos

you know really like um so i started to

fall in love with skateboarding and then

i was told you know little girls don't

skateboard you can't do that you can't

wear your hat backwards little girls

don't do that and i was like you know

just i had this disconnect of saying

okay well you're saying i'm a little

girl and i don't do that but i love

wearing my hat backwards and i love

skateboarding so like it doesn't make

sense to me and you know there were more

and more of those situations from

adults and my well-intended adults in my life

life

you know and then uh kids in school of

course so because i was interested in

different things than the other girls in

my class or you know i think that was

where it sort of

people could see the the differences and

that started to

shine those differences back on me of

making me question like okay you're

saying i'm one thing i feel really drawn to

doing this or expressing myself in this

way or wearing these clothes so

something is off here and you know i

think that sort of started the

it started this internal questioning in

high school but i just didn't have the

exposure either i you know i graduated

with the class of 24 students in

northern wisconsin wow after moving from

chicago where i had a thousand in my

eighth grade class you know and so i

went into this really small

small world where

where

there were no gay people at my school

that that were out at least and you know

there were definitely no trans people

and all the the

exposure that i had was from media so it

was jerry springer and maury povich and

these trashy daytime talk shows that

were actually showing caricatures or

um you know really negative portrayals

of transgender women and i i never saw

someone like myself and so i just really

just didn't have the understanding or

the words to put to it

and then i went to college and and still

didn't have exposure and you know i

think it took me a really long time to

figure out how to talk about myself to

other people but

but

internally you know i felt peace with

with how i was expressing myself

the the troubles just came when people

you know

punched me about it that was really like

you know

when when my very presence was a threat

to other people you know that's when it

became a problem for me

yeah that it just sounds like such a

confusing time and mainly because you

don't have that

i mean you've got role models as an

athlete but you haven't got role models to

to explain what you were going through

and and

any yardstick on how to deal with it no

let alone a roadmap of where to go what

to do did you

what was your

or what or who was the the first outlet

that you went to to talk about what you

you know i don't even really remember

the the first spot i guess

eventually became youtube but i

probably reading books before that um

and just trying to find a sense of

some resonance in something that i saw

you know i i stopped playing sports in

college organized sports because i

didn't want to be on a women's team and

i didn't know that at the time but i

gave up my

you know my childhood dream of being a

college basketball player because

i just couldn't like internally knew

that i couldn't stand if a coach came in

and said okay ladies let's go

you know all right girls let's let's you

know let's play so

i moved into individual sports or

intramural sports where i didn't have to

use a locker room or a restroom to to be

with the team uh you know i tried to

find these spots to to fill these holes athletically

athletically but

but

in i and i think that i did that and

threw myself into organizations clubs experiences

experiences

in in the college setting so that i

didn't have to think about my identity

so really i think it all it all sort of

fell apart for me after i graduated

college because i lost my identity as a

college student as the editor of the

newspaper as the radio station dj you

know of all these things that i had

filled my time with

and you know then i was just forced with

like faced with all of this time to

really think about who i am

how am i showing up in the world and am

i happy in doing that so it's really

those those sort of post-college years

where i started to search and look for information

information

and all honestly i think you know the

biggest source of my information is my

partner uh who i'm not married to and

when we've been together this year will

be 20 years

of being together so we were together

pre-transition and you know through my

transition and she just had a lot more

exposure to

queer culture to trans identity to

um to

the lgbtq plus community than i did and

and really gave me resources and the

space to just figure it out like she

just would have been happy with me in

being happy with myself regardless of

how my identity you know ended up at the end

end

and so really you know she

was able to guide me to to places to look

look

well i guess in some way shape or form

every young person even maybe at that

age is going through

and more and do you know what more so

now just with the sheer amount of visit

like there you suffered from a lack of

visibility for people

like yourself

now there's so much visibility of people

out there and almost with that we've

gone the other way like there's there's

almost too many options there's too many

options of of people who i want to be

like so even if you are just a

heterosexual woman and you are now

looking at

thousands of women all different shapes

sizes colors and like then you're

talking like dress styles and and who

you want to be and it's like where the

hell do i fit in this and how do i be

authentic in in what i do and so i don't

know if you have

would there be any advice that you have

for younger people that are perhaps really

really

wrestling with their own identity and

discovering who they are and maybe even

feeling like because it felt like you didn't

didn't

in in a great way you didn't want to be

anyone else you didn't want to be you

you would s deep down trying to be

yourself and i think some people fall

into the trap of trying to be like other

people would there be a piece of advice

that you would give people

that are falling into that bucket

yeah i think

when i first started um a social transition

transition

and started to tell people you know i'm

trans man i want you to use he him

pronouns with me my name has always been

chris so that wasn't a change but you

know i was trying to get people to

change how they were looking at me and

reflecting back their

their talk to me

and you know as i started to be seen as

a man and show up in the world as a man

i found that you know i very much

experienced what you just said of of

you know trying on these different

versions of myself so in the first you

know the first like year i i felt very

unsteady about myself probably the most

unsteady i had ever felt about myself

because i did get caught up in in trying to

make sure that people saw me as a man

and i think you know there were these

moments where i you know put on a

a mask of masculinity that certainly was

not authentic to who i am deep down

inside and you know from things like

avoiding wearing lavender or pink you

know i'll never be seen in most colors

to say like i don't want someone to

accidentally say she to me

to then you know

how i was showing up and how i was

posturing and even you know how i was

expressing myself in

how the words i chose how i was speaking

i really was trying very hard to be seen

as a man because i had this sort of

image created by the media magazines

movie stars musicians you know people in

my life

of what a man should be and so i i went

through several of these versions and

then got to this place where i'm like

wait a second like this is not what it's

about i i'm transitioning and asking

people to to see me as i see myself

because i just want to be comfortable

being myself i don't have to pretend to

be any type of man or you know to to

perform masculinity in any certain way

i'm a dude who shaves his legs like i'm

fine with that like that's fine you know um

and so you know we can all just express

ourselves however how however feels

comfortable to us and i think what i

would the advice i'd give to somebody or

what i wish i would have known is that

it's okay for you to be you in any sort

of way like you don't have to stack up

or compare yourself to anybody because

at the end of the day you have to go to

bed and wake up happy you know it's your

life nobody cares as much about you as

you as you care about yourself and we

are all the stars in our own movie

we are all just living our own lives and

even our our very close friends our

family um the people who who love us and

and love us for who we are

they're going to continue to love us if

we you know whether you're wearing a

skirt or you're wearing pants they're

going to continue to love you if you

have a shaved head or you have purple

hair you know like it's it's about who

you are on the inside and feeling good

about how you are showing up so i just

what i wish that i would have known and

what i tell people is uh not to care

about other people's opinions because

they ultimately other people's opinions

of me don't matter like they're not in

my business

other people's opinions of me are none

of my business and everyone's going to

have one but at the end of the day it

doesn't affect who i am on the inside

and and how i feel about myself

not only that it's something you cannot

control like you can't control what

anyone else expects of you or thinks of

you and and trying to control those

things will just cause

a level of anxiety that is just not good

for you you're never going to be able to

control that so

i i'm so glad you

that said that was a beautifully

articulated answer um what was what was

the relationship with your mum like got

through this this

very young transitional age before

transition but as you're sort of

discovering who you are

yeah you know just before that i think

this is certainly something that i

learned as an athlete is that i can

never control other people's you know

thoughts about me and i think that was

like being an athlete really helped me

to transition publicly and then you know

transitioning helped me as an athlete

because it alleviated all of those

concerns i had and helped me focus on my

sport so you know i think

the resilience and the

mindset and the lessons that i learned

through sports really have helped me

show up more authentically in the world

you know for that reason of saying um

you know you have a bad performance on

the on the court your people are gonna

talk and i was very accustomed to

um other people who don't play sports at

all who who's met whose opinions don't

matter having an opinion and so

you know it certainly helped me uh in

the long run you know my my um my mom is

awesome she was a single mom uh you know

so certainly a hero and a role model for

me and uh she gave me a lot of space to

to be myself and i think she just didn't

quite understand it

and you know there were there were these

moments where she uh we would be in a

store and i'd have my hat on backwards

and someone say oh your son is blah blah

blah and she's like that's my daughter

you know like i could tell she had a

daughter and a son and like i think

this is something that i imagine for i'm

not a parent i'm childless by choice but

uh if you know i imagine that parents

you know have the vision for their for

their kid and and those visions are

different depending on the gender of the

child we do this before a baby even

comes out that you know that

it's from the from the

um gender reveal parties which are so

odd to me now to what what people buy

for baby showers and how you decorate a

room and there's all of these social

constructs and expectations that we put

on children before they even show up in

the world and that certainly influences

how a parent thinks about the future of

their child

so i just don't think that my mom saw

this in the cards for me but

but

uh you know when i when i did tell her i

think she you know said i

i thought she she would have been more

surprised if i said that i was going to

wear a dress the next day than to tell

her that i was trans

it just you know everything made sense

all of the pieces of my childhood and

and how i showed up in the world made

sense and i think she just found a lot

of peace in me being happy and and me

being a and confident and comfortable to

show up and share

my truth and my my experience with other

people and you know i think our

relationship has had its own ups and

downs as she's

i think transition is a transition for

everybody around me you know if you have

to people at my workplace had to change

how they referred to me and people my

family who had known me for

you know for my entire life had to

change how they saw me and that it's how

they saw their relationships to me and

how they envisioned me as a child

and how they talked about me from those

from that time and how they talk about

me now

and so i think uh you know try to be

very forgiving with those experiences and

and

you know i know that my mom is just

super thrilled and uh proud of me in the

way that i show up now like

even in the times where she struggled a

little bit in in

how to talk about me with her friends

which i think is in a small town where

there are no other trans people like

that's a that's a real challenge that i

um you know

i'm sure

has to be a struggle at times

but i don't think she really cares i

think she's just proud of me and happy

that i'm so happy and and that i'm doing well

well

i i've never really thought of that how

you said that that everyone is

transitioning that's a really

interesting way to talk about it because

the whole

i mean the whole experience will be

uncomfortable for a lot of people it

from the outside i get because they're

having to

change everything that they think is in

their mind

built from their own expectations put

upon them and they're having to

re-configure everything and

and i think that's probably where a lot

of the friction i imagine you you

encounter in people who even don't even

know you

um that will probably uphold

it's it's back to that what you said at

the beginning you don't know what you

don't know and that piece of the on the

unknown and the

the uncertainty

uncertainty

is really scary for people and like you

said it it requires a lot of unpacking a

lot of those moments of saying jerry

springer maury povich ace ventura pet

detective you know these are the the

moments that i learned about trans

people that we're all really negative

and so what does that mean for someone

who i love and someone that i've known

for so long to say that they're trans

you know when i first came out there was

a statistic in in the united states if

you compared two studies more people in

america believe they had seen a ghost

than know a trans person in real life

and so

you know when more more people in the

united states believe they've had a

paranormal experience that have known

someone like me in person it becomes

really easy to create this myth

or stereotype around who trans people

are and how you know why we're here and

what we do

where you know really it's you know my

my life is very um

um uh

not remarkable in a lot of ways right

like i wake up i have my coffee

my instagram you know like my like like

trans lifestyle and i'm using air quotes

here uh is is very similar to other

people right so it's it's um the myths

and misconceptions come from

not knowing they come from

our influences from what we've learned

they come from the from our school

experiences where people were teased

that they were uh not showing up in you

know if they presented in a gender

expansive or sort of non-conforming way

as their peers

and so

all of my struggles i think in terms of

dealing with other people have come from

that lack of education

um yeah it's that again is i think that

the key to everything and i'm sure we'll

get on to your activism work that's

that's the main crux behind it talk us

through the actual transition itself and

from my understanding and what i've

learned is there's multiple

transitions and different ways to

transition um was what was the defining

moment for you where you thought this is

what i want to do and this is where i'm

going to go and then i guess

talk about how you transition for you i

understand it's it's a lot of

testosterone that you you're taking on

yeah not a lot

but it sounds like a lot it sounds like

i'm just you know

it's not like gallons

lewis is this a video podcast

yes yeah yeah like let me just show like

i didn't like super hold on right so um

like i get what you're saying though

yeah yeah there's not just one way to be

transgender there's not just one way to

transition and so um you know people

approach it in different ways and i

think that's what this is what makes it

so complicated in sports right is that

yeah sports is

two categories it is uh you know it's

there's not a lot of room for expansion

there's not a lot of room for a gray

area right and

i exist in that area between uh between

two categories in the sport in in a lot

of ways and so um

i made a social transition um in you

know asking people to change uh pronouns

and i change the restroom that i use you

know locker rooms that i use so um and

maybe it'd be just easier to go through

this there there are there are three

main ways that people transition and the

first is social so changing name

pronouns hairstyle

gender expression through clothing

mannerisms and then

restrooms or locker rooms facilities

that they use

a medical transition would be taking

medical interventions so hormone

hormone

hormone therapy like testosterone that i

take or testosterone suppression and

estrogen treatment or making medical

interventions such as gender affirming

surgeries and then the third way is

legal transition

and that'd be legally changing your

gender on documents like your birth

certificate driver's license social

security cards passports things like

that which are all necessary for people

to get jobs to get housing to be able to fly

fly

you know like those sort of things so

and it's not easy to do all of those

things in in all places and it can you

know i'm sure it's different in the uk

than it is here in the united states yeah

yeah so

i understood my identity and i didn't

tell anyone aside from my partner for

about a year and a half because i was

terrified to transition because i didn't

see people like me in the world in

particularly in sports and i didn't know

trans men in real life and you know even

living in new york city one of the

largest places in the world i didn't

know trans people in real life i didn't

have close friends i didn't have people

i could ask questions to

so i felt like i wasn't sure if i could

go through with you know taking such a

bold step knowing that

if i didn't know anybody

you know people around me certainly

didn't know anybody either

i didn't see people in sports either and

i still wanted to be an athlete and that

was such an important part of my experience

experience

so uh you know the

the turning point was my 29th birthday

and i was at a restaurant with my

with my wife and partner at the time and uh

the waiter came over and and must have

said hey ladies can i take your order

and i ordered my my food and when they

walked away i just burst into tears and

it was inconsolable went outside you

know sitting on the sidewalk just sobbing

sobbing

um and it was because i couldn't imagine

living another life and another year of

my life like that it just felt like that

was the moment that that waiter saying

that to me seeing me like that um

that i just couldn't imagine living

another year making it to another

birthday as that version of who i was

and so that really was what sparked it

and set a plan in motion for

me taking the steps that i needed to to

feel more aligned and how i was showing

up with other people and that was a

social transition so

you know asking people to change the the

pronouns and

also a medical transition so i do take

testosterone on sporting purposes i have

to get a therapeutic use exemption form

and make sure that i'm within a certain

range limit so that i can continue to

participate in uh team usa and in

international sports um

yeah and and so that was you know that

was really it

that that that range that you're talking

about is is to

not take too much to because that's what um

you can get done for doping i'm assuming

is that is that essentially that limit

is that that's the upper limit

yeah i mean uh so it's interesting right

the the limit for testosterone for men

is enormous it's like something like you

know 600 points of of testosterone uh a

range of in the 300s to the 900s

and i think the flag is if i go over

that you know

it flags because it's outside the limit

but it's interesting because cisgender

men are never tested on their

testosterone levels testing is something

specifically done to

female athletes and to transgender

people and so you know it's really an

interesting uh comparison there are a

lot of negative things that can happen

medically and internally if i take too

much testosterone and you know things

i i love my hair i want to keep my hair

you know too much testosterone uh too

much testosterone can convert to

estrogen so like there are there's there

is a

a healthy range for me to be in to

achieve you know what i'm what i'm

intending to do by taking testosterone

um anytime that someone externally takes

testosterone is it could be flagged for

doping so that's the the reason for the

therapeutic use exemption

and you started in 2010 right and

that that that process takes

how long uh or is it a gradual process

do you start to feel impact

fairly early um

yeah that's a gradual process and i

think you know i had lived

29 years in my in my body

as it was before and so to feel the

changes you know happening i i was first

i was very aware because i was looking

for certain things like i wanted this

mustache and a beard when i was in 2010

it took me until 2020 to get it so you

know 10 years to be able to to curl the

tips of this mustache but um

you know i think there were certain

things that i was looking for in certain

changes that i knew were possible based

on things that i had read or videos i

had seen on on youtube but um

you know i it was it was definitely a

very gradual change and i think that i i

still feel like i'm changing and growing

and evolving and um you know nothing

nothing enormous but in the first year

of taking testosterone i gained 10 of my

body weight so i went from being 120

pounds to being 132 pounds you know so

and and you know

you have to consider that this was also

you know in a really heavy peak of

training too so there were you know

it was muscle mass that i was mostly

putting on but to gain that much

muscle i think for anybody the

bodybuilders or you know people training

it's it feels very uncomfortable to be

in your body and you have to get used to

being in your own skin again and i think

that that was a

change for me as well

and then not only that you so you

transitioned and then you got to 2016

and you're now succeeding in what you're

you're doing

so you

made the team usa you made team usa and

and

once you started your transition period

did you feel like okay now

or once you felt i don't know if there's

a moment you get to where you feel like

i'm i'm in a comfortable spot and you

can really focus on your training and

you were then like right i'm f this is

not something you can park

but something that is now gaining much

more comfortability with you but was

there a moment where you like i can now

really focus on training and because

your story is incredible to just be able to

anyone to be able to get to that level

but to go through what you've gone

through and then still get there

is a an incredible achievement and

without no shadow of a doubt takes a

certain amount of dedication

so yeah

was there a finite moment where you're

like this is where i'm going

yeah i think uh

there was probably a lot of uncertainty

in the beginning part of my transition

of saying i've never seen someone like

me succeed in competing with men and and

definitely not at a high level and you

know is it even possible to do that but

i think that sort of uh questioning that

sort of you know double dare

idea of like people saying that it

couldn't be done gave me more motivation

to say let's see i think that i can do

it and so that really inspired me to try

harder to i felt like i had to work

twice as hard as anybody else out there

just because people doubted me so much

and then i think also part of it was the

self-compensation of feeling like i i

had to

uh i had to really excel in order to be

valid or to be worthy of being seen as a

man you know at least in those first

years of transition so there was really

a lot of pressure that i put on myself

and then once i found that there was

this opportunity to

be a role model for other people to be

the person who broke the door open to

uh allow other people like me to see

themselves in sport you know i use that

as motivation than to work extra hard as well

well

i think there was one race actually

uh you know

that i remember being at the start line

and i knew at the at the start of it i

was i'm gonna win this race

i'm going to win this race and i had

seen it you know doing the athlete

visualization i pictured myself winning

that race you know for for a month

leading up to it and when we showed up

on that day i had this moment of being uh

of recognizing as i'm starting and i'm

lining up at the front of the of the

pack with all the

other men who were contenders

just of saying like wow you know i do

belong here this i'm i'm a fast guy and

i belong up here with the fast guys and

there i had to talk myself into towing

the line

in that position because i think i just

always kind of seen myself as being

you know not middle of the pack but but

not worthy of being up there at the

front and so you know that was

uh that race and i did win

that race was uh you know was a moment

where i was like no no i i have earned

my spot here i've worked my ass off you

know this is where i belong and it was

really validating for me to to

see that from start to finish right to

be dreaming of being in that position to

then taking the line winning the race

you know and and saying no like i do

belong here i am

did you get much friction from in the

field from the other athletes did like

in in your with your situation

no you know i think athletes are pretty

special right if anybody who's working

hard and uh you know trying to

uh you know what it takes as an athlete

even athletes across different sports

like i just love talking to athletes

because if you're a high performing

athlete you know what it takes to to get

there and i don't know all of the

specifics of training for cricket and

how you would potentially tear your

hamstring off your body but yeah you know

know

but i do know that that i i know that

work ethic and the dedication that it

takes right as an athlete so uh that i

think has bridged the gap between any

lack of understanding about what it

means to be trans and only because i'm a

trans man only because i inherited male

privilege only because i'm a seen as a

you know as a straight white guy for

lack of better words um i'm i'm queer

people don't read that but

you know they don't necessarily

know that i'm trans unless they have

read about me and they don't necessarily

you know

know that i'm queer unless i've told

them and so

all of those things you know when we're

in in competition everybody's just

worried about themselves so so i have

not had friction from my competitors in

that sort of way and also there's this

understanding or this belief that

i would never be competitive against men

because i was assigned female at birth

so you know no one assigned female at

birth could possibly win against men

because men are bigger faster stronger

better athletes than people assigned

female at birth and

you know regardless of

proving that wrong time and time again

you know six times on team usa with the

men uh

still people just kind of shrug their

shoulders and say good job and it's it's

a non-issue sometimes it's an issue for

spectators if they know me or like in

the early part of my transition people

would sometimes yell at me that sort of

basketball moment are you a guy or a

girl you know like

like that sort of thing

but my competitors even that the second

place guy in that race that i won found

me on facebook and was like oh wow i

didn't know you're trends great job out

there you crush the race and keep keep

up with the activism work you're doing

great like

i've i've had that sort of experience

uh on the whole and i think part of it

is because multi-sport triathlon do

athlon is is really

you know welcoming or at least has been

for me and

and

you know running and cycling i think

those are also things that

people who are runners become friends

with people they would never talk to you

outside of running because of that

shared experience and that's really been

a blessing for me

it's when you

start to go the other in the other end

of that and and people find their

there's more controversial talk around peop

peop

trans women

and i mean with the olympics having just gone

gone

you have people like laurel hubbard who

competed and

having actually listened to your

conversation with um

rich roll in in the podcast you did with him

him

you said something in there which was really

really

eye-opening and then i kind of went into

it a little bit more and watched more

athletes that were competing in that

space and you said

trans athletes are not dominating like

it's people are getting this wrong it's

people are reading the spectrum and

they're going to this far far-fetched

imaginary space

creating a headline and making it fact

and that was so true like and laurel

hubbard was a great example that people

were like well she's just gonna turn up

at the event and she's gonna win

everything he didn't qualify i don't

think got through qualifying i'm not

sure but it didn't didn't get on the

podium that's for sure

yeah she was the first athlete out she

was the the very first athlete out so

yeah i mean you're absolutely right the

key number to remember here is zero

there have been zero trans athletes

dominating in sports and uh there have

been zero problems in the united states

with trans athletes in high school there

have been zero cases of a trans athlete

taking a scholarship from a cisgender athlete

athlete

i know of zero athletes transgender

athletes who have actually gotten

scholarships to athletic scholarships to

go to college uh in the united states

and i know a lot of trans athletes and i

mentor a lot of young people

so you know i think that it really has been

been

massively blown out of proportion

intentionally because yeah in the united

states and globally it has become a

political issue

um where you know it's it's really

people are using tweets and headlines as

as facts like you said and there's so

much nuance i mean just even when i was

explaining to you the different ways to

transition right you can imagine like that

that

not all trans athletes fall within uh

you know i am a i'm a case study of one

and so while i share my experience and i

and i try to be uh visible for other

people to see me it doesn't mean that

every trans athlete uh who's a trans man

is gonna be like me and is gonna follow

the same steps in the same journey that

i've done and and so

that's where it becomes really

complicated when we start to talk about

the there's there's more nuance to it

than just saying trans athletes can play

here and this is the rule and that's why

we have a patchwork of policies and

that's also why we've been seeing global

attacks in and specifically in the uk

where there are several hate groups that

have been leading the global charge

against transgender athletes

again it comes from mis-education and the

the

the lack of understanding of

the realm in which they're discussing

and this whole

uh idea that

like someone who has been a man for 30

years and it tends to be in in power

sports so power lifting and an mma like

mma there was the the fight i forget her

name um she fought

recently and won and then there was

controversy it was actually just before

september 11th

but i watched that i watched that fight

and she won but it's not like she

dominated that fight she was taking

blows like she was

getting hit and hard and

the woman that she was fighting was six

foot and had i think like six inches on

reach so or if you'd literally put these

two fighters up against each other on

statue like that one should win

and it was a chokehold that won it and

it was it was poor defensive work from

the other fight the fighter who lost and

and at the same time she agreed to get

in the cage it's there's all of these

steps that people have gone into but the

headline was

trans woman beats woman in

mma fight and that just click bait and

people get onto it or swipe past it and

go god what ridiculous thing that is and

that's where if you actually it didn't

take me long to figure all this out it's

it's not like this was stuff that needed

deep research it was it took me 10

minutes to watch the fight understand

what was going on find out a little bit

about that athlete what is what is the

process that's gone through here and

okay this is this is not asked

criminal that you're all making it out

to be

right and specifically in mma which

people love to come back to you know she

is the second mma fighter that that i

know of who is a trans woman and you

know mma is a it's a violent sport

people do get bones broken they do get

choked out they do get knocked down and

so to say that you know a trans athlete

is causing uh exponentially more harm

than any other athlete who's out there

throwing punches and kicking people in

the face like it's just kind of ridiculous

ridiculous

um but but you're right like people

really do take that uh stereotypical

version of you know i always say it's

like people think an nfl linebacker is

going to say that they're suddenly you

know identify as a woman and then go

dominate in college you know basketball

or something like it just doesn't happen

and it hasn't happened it's not going to

happen because if people understand how

our how our world is set up no one

assigned male at birth is going to

pretend to be a woman to gain athletic

you know

advantage in in women's sports like

that just isn't going to happen uh so

you know it's really based on myths and

misconceptions and and this fear of

fear of trans people i guess like

when i try to think about it what what

is it actually um because it

i don't i don't truly believe that

cisgender men are that invested in

protecting women in sports

because here in the united states the

same people who are saying that they're trying to protect girls and women in the

trying to protect girls and women in the very next conversation or the previous

very next conversation or the previous conversation before that have been

conversation before that have been trying to take away cisgender women's

trying to take away cisgender women's rights to bodily autonomy to making

rights to bodily autonomy to making choice about reproduction you know like

choice about reproduction you know like things like that so i don't believe that

things like that so i don't believe that it's cisgender men trying to protect

it's cisgender men trying to protect women i don't believe that all of these

women i don't believe that all of these men and it is largely men who are

men and it is largely men who are introducing this legislation

introducing this legislation are are invested in protecting women's

are are invested in protecting women's sports that they are buying tickets to

sports that they are buying tickets to games or watching women's games on tv i

games or watching women's games on tv i don't believe they could name their

don't believe they could name their favorite you know women at women

favorite you know women at women athletes and so you know i think there's

athletes and so you know i think there's a lot of problems that are wrapped up in

a lot of problems that are wrapped up in this and it's not about what they say

this and it's not about what they say it's about

it's about i i think the thing that struck me again

i i think the thing that struck me again going back to the conversation you had

going back to the conversation you had with rich roll when i watched that was

with rich roll when i watched that was the thing that i loved about you was the

the thing that i loved about you was the fact that that conversation was

fact that that conversation was happening with such composure and it was

happening with such composure and it was happening with such calmness and i think

happening with such calmness and i think that people it just leans on people's

that people it just leans on people's scared

scared mentality around something that's

mentality around something that's different from their own beliefs and you

different from their own beliefs and you could have changed the complete context

could have changed the complete context of that conversation that you're having

of that conversation that you're having into religion into race and just the the

into religion into race and just the the tone at which that conversation is

tone at which that conversation is happening allows it to happen i think

happening allows it to happen i think people feel that whether it's whether

people feel that whether it's whether it's something like veganism whether

it's something like veganism whether it's a religion whether it's

it's a religion whether it's gender race anything

gender race anything they straight away go to that one person

they straight away go to that one person that they've had an interaction with

that they've had an interaction with that was extremely militant on the

that was extremely militant on the subject and then they brought they brash

subject and then they brought they brash everyone with that that thinking and

everyone with that that thinking and they believe everyone is like that so

they believe everyone is like that so every trans man is going to be like that

every trans man is going to be like that trans man that i met who no that's just

trans man that i met who no that's just some individual that was not great at

some individual that was not great at getting the argument across not good at

getting the argument across not good at contextualizing it was far too emotive

contextualizing it was far too emotive in how they delivered it and having that

in how they delivered it and having that composure of your emotions

composure of your emotions in that conversation i i felt was one

in that conversation i i felt was one thing that you

thing that you brought across and you've brought across

brought across and you've brought across in this conversation so well and it's so

in this conversation so well and it's so important to have these conversations

important to have these conversations openly because as soon as people start

openly because as soon as people start to get heated it just shuts down

to get heated it just shuts down everything it just no one wants to

everything it just no one wants to listen regardless of what it is

listen regardless of what it is yeah and there's not

yeah and there's not i

i i try to put myself in a position where

i try to put myself in a position where i can understand what other people

i can understand what other people other people's fears are and what and

other people's fears are and what and what they're worried about because you

what they're worried about because you know i had such a great experience in

know i had such a great experience in women's sports and as a young person you

women's sports and as a young person you know like i i love playing women's

know like i i love playing women's sports i didn't quite feel like i

sports i didn't quite feel like i belonged there when people were saying

belonged there when people were saying ladies or girls but you know it was an

ladies or girls but you know it was an incredible experience and i think we do

incredible experience and i think we do need to make sure that that women have a

need to make sure that that women have a space to play sports and i think we can

space to play sports and i think we can do that we can we can have uh safe and

do that we can we can have uh safe and fair sports and also include everyone

fair sports and also include everyone and so you know i i appreciate that

and so you know i i appreciate that feedback i i think what we see is that

feedback i i think what we see is that every trans person is often put in a

every trans person is often put in a position to have to speak on behalf of

position to have to speak on behalf of the entire community because you know

the entire community because you know like

like not every trans athlete wants to be an

not every trans athlete wants to be an activist not every trans person wants to

activist not every trans person wants to have to defend their identity or explain

have to defend their identity or explain it to people who are not transgender and

it to people who are not transgender and i've taken on that role i've willingly

i've taken on that role i've willingly taken on that role i think my legacy my

taken on that role i think my legacy my purpose here as a person is to create a

purpose here as a person is to create a pathway for other people to more fully

pathway for other people to more fully and authentically be able to be

and authentically be able to be themselves and to participate in the

themselves and to participate in the sports that they love or to do what they

sports that they love or to do what they love to follow their passions and i want

love to follow their passions and i want to share my experience and and use my

to share my experience and and use my platform as an athlete

platform as an athlete to get that message across but not every

to get that message across but not every trans person wants to be that person and

trans person wants to be that person and so if you put a microphone in front of

so if you put a microphone in front of somebody who's just trying to play their

somebody who's just trying to play their sport just trying to live their life you

sport just trying to live their life you know

know we may get those answers that that are

we may get those answers that that are more emotive we you know not everybody

more emotive we you know not everybody has the talking points that i have or

has the talking points that i have or has thought about it as much as i have

has thought about it as much as i have and so you know i think that it becomes

and so you know i think that it becomes very complicated when when people are

very complicated when when people are demanding education or

demanding education or um

um understanding of experiences from people

understanding of experiences from people who don't really want to share

who don't really want to share and and that's not everybody's uh you

and and that's not everybody's uh you know it's not every trans person's

know it's not every trans person's responsibility to educate cis people on

responsibility to educate cis people on the experiences of being transgender

the experiences of being transgender yeah well you've you've paved the way

yeah well you've you've paved the way for so many and you've you've managed to

for so many and you've you've managed to to get into this place where you've now

to get into this place where you've now become a role model for so many and you

become a role model for so many and you are that

are that that yardstick that everyone can can

that yardstick that everyone can can look at and and look up to and hopefully

look at and and look up to and hopefully be that role model

be that role model in that that area they've been have many

in that that area they've been have many i believe many athletes have different

i believe many athletes have different role models and i i respect female

role models and i i respect female athletes in

athletes in what they've done and we'll take bits

what they've done and we'll take bits from them and but your story your

from them and but your story your journey like people are going to

journey like people are going to now have something

now have something a pathway in which they believe they can

a pathway in which they believe they can understand and not only that resource

understand and not only that resource that they can they can go to what do you

that they can they can go to what do you think is the or what's your

think is the or what's your main goal in the next sort of year with

main goal in the next sort of year with with whether it's policy changes what

with whether it's policy changes what are you targeting where do you believe

are you targeting where do you believe the most ground can be made up

the most ground can be made up i guess in the lgbtq plus community

i guess in the lgbtq plus community for me it's really been the last year

for me it's really been the last year and a half two years have been a real

and a half two years have been a real strong focus on transgender people in

strong focus on transgender people in sports which has really been you know

sports which has really been you know shocking as somebody who's been out

shocking as somebody who's been out since 2010 who has been competing at a

since 2010 who has been competing at a high level for six years you know for

high level for six years you know for the focus to now be on people like me in

the focus to now be on people like me in sports when there aren't very many

sports when there aren't very many people like me in sports

people like me in sports [Laughter]

[Laughter] has really been interesting and so i

has really been interesting and so i feel really called to continue to

feel really called to continue to protect and support the transgender

protect and support the transgender athletes and non-binary people who just

athletes and non-binary people who just want to play the sports that they love

want to play the sports that they love and we have to remember that

and we have to remember that elite athletes are such a small part of

elite athletes are such a small part of the athletic population right while

the athletic population right while while we have people like laurel hubbard

while we have people like laurel hubbard who are being talked about consistently

who are being talked about consistently at the olympic level you know we have

at the olympic level you know we have young people

young people who are 15 years old who just want to

who are 15 years old who just want to play the sports that they love with

play the sports that they love with their friends after school and and those

their friends after school and and those people deserve an opportunity to have

people deserve an opportunity to have those same experiences as their peers

those same experiences as their peers we've seen an uptick in legislation

we've seen an uptick in legislation against the trans community in the

against the trans community in the united states there were over 300

united states there were over 300 anti-lgbtq bills that were introduced

anti-lgbtq bills that were introduced this year in in 2021 and

this year in in 2021 and half of them targeted the trans

half of them targeted the trans community and 70 over 75 of them

community and 70 over 75 of them targeted transgender kids in sports and

targeted transgender kids in sports and we're seeing this in the united states

we're seeing this in the united states but we're also seeing it globally you

but we're also seeing it globally you know the uk is a is a space where it's

know the uk is a is a space where it's not necessarily safe for trans people

not necessarily safe for trans people and sports either and

and sports either and i want to find ways to support all trans

i want to find ways to support all trans people in in pursuing their passions in

people in in pursuing their passions in athletics and i think that's really

athletics and i think that's really important so policy wise it's about

important so policy wise it's about fighting this legislation in the united

fighting this legislation in the united states specifically

states specifically but i think the way

but i think the way that i'm shifting to do this now is by

that i'm shifting to do this now is by doing it through trans joy and and just

doing it through trans joy and and just i think there's so much narrative around

i think there's so much narrative around um

um this sort of trauma of being transgender

this sort of trauma of being transgender and

and and

and trust me there is a lot of trauma around

trust me there is a lot of trauma around being transgender in a world that does

being transgender in a world that does not support trans people does not

not support trans people does not understand trans people and i

understand trans people and i acknowledge that my experience as a as a

acknowledge that my experience as a as a white trans man has been very different

white trans man has been very different than the experiences of my peers who are

than the experiences of my peers who are transgender women or trans people of

transgender women or trans people of color

color and you know to be at that intersection

and you know to be at that intersection of being a trans woman of color

of being a trans woman of color you know those people have

you know those people have those athletes have experienced such

those athletes have experienced such discrimination

discrimination just wanting to participate in sports

just wanting to participate in sports not even not even winning you know just

not even not even winning you know just trying to play the games that they love

trying to play the games that they love so

so you know i think that

you know i think that we

we need to be conscious of that legislation

need to be conscious of that legislation and and fighting it to make sure there

and and fighting it to make sure there are opportunities for all people and the

are opportunities for all people and the big shift right now is is including

big shift right now is is including non-binary athletes in the conversation

non-binary athletes in the conversation as well which i think is you know

as well which i think is you know for a lot of people will make their

for a lot of people will make their heads pop off their shoulders because if

heads pop off their shoulders because if they already can't understand someone

they already can't understand someone like me making a very binary transition

like me making a very binary transition like you know i i transition to male i

like you know i i transition to male i feel like i fit pretty well in the men's

feel like i fit pretty well in the men's category i'm i'm largely um you know red

category i'm i'm largely um you know red acknowledged uh understood to be a man

acknowledged uh understood to be a man in in in the world even without the

in in in the world even without the mustache

mustache and

and you know i think that that's a very

you know i think that that's a very different experience than non-binary

different experience than non-binary people and yet non-binary you know young

people and yet non-binary you know young people

people are sharing their identities more and

are sharing their identities more and more often and they also want to play

more often and they also want to play sports and we need policies and setups

sports and we need policies and setups that allow them to have these

that allow them to have these experiences and opportunities um without

experiences and opportunities um without without problems and they shouldn't have

without problems and they shouldn't have to defend themselves

to defend themselves there's a misconception on people's part

there's a misconception on people's part where they think that they forget that

where they think that they forget that just trying to compete they just want to

just trying to compete they just want to play

play like and it's it's again the idea that

like and it's it's again the idea that people are throwing their expectation of

people are throwing their expectation of what that athlete that trans athlete

what that athlete that trans athlete wants which is oh they want to compete

wants which is oh they want to compete they want to win they want to take over

they want to win they want to take over our sport they want to like that they're

our sport they want to like that they're already running away with a storyline

already running away with a storyline that's probably not even

that's probably not even anywhere near true because they haven't

anywhere near true because they haven't opened up the conversation or the

opened up the conversation or the dialogue to find out what is what is it

dialogue to find out what is what is it that you guys are after and what is it

that you guys are after and what is it that you want to do what do you want to

that you want to do what do you want to compete do you want to win do you want

compete do you want to win do you want to go where do you want to go

to go where do you want to go and i think there was something actually

and i think there was something actually that you had you'd mentioned i heard

that you had you'd mentioned i heard this stat was and it may be new it may

this stat was and it may be new it may be different was that 41 of trans youth

be different was that 41 of trans youth um have attempted suicide

um have attempted suicide yes that's uh is that still true

yes that's uh is that still true yep um yeah and i mean perhaps even more

yep um yeah and i mean perhaps even more we saw uh outrageous increases in calls

we saw uh outrageous increases in calls to lgbtq plus and trans-pacific hotlines

to lgbtq plus and trans-pacific hotlines after each of these legislation

after each of these legislation legislative uh bills have been

legislative uh bills have been introduced in the united states so texas

introduced in the united states so texas alone has tried six times now to pass a

alone has tried six times now to pass a bill just this year

bill just this year that would prevent trans kids from

that would prevent trans kids from playing sports you know they bring in

playing sports you know they bring in these trans kids to share their

these trans kids to share their experiences the parents the doctors you

experiences the parents the doctors you know ten to one outnumbering the people

know ten to one outnumbering the people who want to ban this

who want to ban this uh ban trans athletes and you know every

uh ban trans athletes and you know every single time that that bills are

single time that that bills are introduced we see spikes in number of

introduced we see spikes in number of calls to hotlines and on the flip side

calls to hotlines and on the flip side you know for a person to have an

you know for a person to have an affirming space like a sports team just

affirming space like a sports team just one affirming person a coach a teammate

one affirming person a coach a teammate who validates a young trans person's

who validates a young trans person's identity we see a 25 reduced

identity we see a 25 reduced risk of self-harm wow so so it's very

risk of self-harm wow so so it's very much related

much related that that that's an incredible um stat

that that that's an incredible um stat and reduction as well and you also i'd

and reduction as well and you also i'd heard you talk about

heard you talk about how and forgive me because again in the

how and forgive me because again in the uk

uk like you've mentioned

like you've mentioned it's not very accepted it's it's a i

it's not very accepted it's it's a i actually come from brighton so down

actually come from brighton so down south and we are one we are the most one

south and we are one we are the most one of the most open cities i think with the

of the most open cities i think with the with the gay capital europe at one

with the gay capital europe at one whether we're still holding that title

whether we're still holding that title i'm not sure um

i'm not sure um it flips between us and birmingham i

it flips between us and birmingham i think but

think but but if you walk down if you walk down

but if you walk down if you walk down into brighton it is

into brighton it is there is a huge lgbtq community it's

there is a huge lgbtq community it's massive it's it actually takes up almost

massive it's it actually takes up almost one half of the city

one half of the city and it it's just a brilliant the pride

and it it's just a brilliant the pride when it happens here is fantastic and

when it happens here is fantastic and and

and everyone comes and enjoys it people

everyone comes and enjoys it people travel from all around the country

travel from all around the country and

and the acceptance that people get from that

the acceptance that people get from that i can imagine is is

i can imagine is is incredible

incredible um

um and this meant this mental health crisis

and this meant this mental health crisis that is happening with trans youth

that is happening with trans youth you had mentioned it being a symptom not

you had mentioned it being a symptom not a cause and that is so true like the

a cause and that is so true like the people i've heard people in the uk not

people i've heard people in the uk not everyone is like brighton down here and

everyone is like brighton down here and you go to other parts of the country

you go to other parts of the country everyone has very different opinions

everyone has very different opinions people will say like oh someone who is

people will say like oh someone who is trans is mentally unwell and i've heard

trans is mentally unwell and i've heard that phrase be used and it's so wrong

that phrase be used and it's so wrong because the mental illness and the

because the mental illness and the mental health issues they're facing are

mental health issues they're facing are a

a symptom of the prejudices that are being

symptom of the prejudices that are being put upon them

put upon them yeah absolutely i mean i couldn't say it

yeah absolutely i mean i couldn't say it better myself

better myself that's it's very true but you know

that's it's very true but you know and then that perpetuates it right so

and then that perpetuates it right so like then people think that uh that

like then people think that uh that someone like me is mentally ill which

someone like me is mentally ill which then creates more stress which then

then creates more stress which then influences the way that they interact

influences the way that they interact with me um you know and then again if

with me um you know and then again if you put a microphone in front of

you put a microphone in front of somebody and tell them to defend

somebody and tell them to defend themselves people will find reasons to

themselves people will find reasons to to support you know find situations that

to support you know find situations that will support their idea right so you're

will support their idea right so you're gonna question some person who doesn't

gonna question some person who doesn't uh has no intention of being an advocate

uh has no intention of being an advocate or an activist for their community and

or an activist for their community and just trying to live their life and then

just trying to live their life and then tell them that they have to defend trans

tell them that they have to defend trans people in sport you know what they're

people in sport you know what they're gonna end up with is a sound bite that

gonna end up with is a sound bite that will largely support the the idea that

will largely support the the idea that this person is unable to regulate their

this person is unable to regulate their emotions or is angry or you know like

emotions or is angry or you know like yes we're angry trans people like have

yes we're angry trans people like have all the reason to be angry because look

all the reason to be angry because look at the way the world is set up uh you

at the way the world is set up uh you know and and how

for no reason with no evidence are trying to be banned from you know from

trying to be banned from you know from sports as just one example or preventing

sports as just one example or preventing people from having ids that that affirm

people from having ids that that affirm their gender that that align with their

their gender that that align with their gender

gender preventing them from having medical uh

preventing them from having medical uh you know interventions or or

you know interventions or or being able to go to the hospital you

being able to go to the hospital you know if i break my arm if there's this

know if i break my arm if there's this thing called the trans broken arm

thing called the trans broken arm syndrome it's like if i broke if i break

syndrome it's like if i broke if i break my arm you don't have to question me

my arm you don't have to question me about my transition right like i just

about my transition right like i just please just fix my arm and every medical

please just fix my arm and every medical situation that i've that i've had has

situation that i've that i've had has been uh even in lgbtq plus places that

been uh even in lgbtq plus places that that serve our community there's been

that serve our community there's been just like such a lack of understanding

just like such a lack of understanding about trans identity and about our needs

about trans identity and about our needs in health care that that is an extremely

in health care that that is an extremely stressful you know situation and i you

stressful you know situation and i you know take this back to my recent hip

know take this back to my recent hip surgery so you know where the hip is

surgery so you know where the hip is located and my like fear about how a

located and my like fear about how a doctor is going to interact with me and

doctor is going to interact with me and my body when i'm on a surgery table and

my body when i'm on a surgery table and what you know for the people are they

what you know for the people are they trained are they uh are they affirming

trained are they uh are they affirming are they understanding you know what

are they understanding you know what will be my situation

will be my situation in both that care and then in my

in both that care and then in my physical therapy afterwards so there's a

physical therapy afterwards so there's a lot of stress that comes along with that

lot of stress that comes along with that and and

and and people um

people need to understand that that stress

stress is a result of the environment and and

is a result of the environment and and the situations that are created not uh

the situations that are created not uh of of some imbalance within all trans

of of some imbalance within all trans people

people yeah but and like i'd mentioned to you

yeah but and like i'd mentioned to you before this podcast is about

before this podcast is about trying to link between well-being and

trying to link between well-being and performance of athletes and is there

performance of athletes and is there something that you've felt with these i

something that you've felt with these i mean not only the sport you play puts

mean not only the sport you play puts you through much physical stress and i

you through much physical stress and i imagine mental stress as well but as

imagine mental stress as well but as well the societal

well the societal impact that you must have faced and you

impact that you must have faced and you have faced um

have faced um how do you manage your your stress what

how do you manage your your stress what are the things that you like doing in

are the things that you like doing in order to to manage your your own stress

order to to manage your your own stress levels

levels i am someone who thrives off of stress i

i am someone who thrives off of stress i was uh you know in journalism when i was

was uh you know in journalism when i was uh in in college and editor of a

uh in in college and editor of a newspaper and so deadlines and you know

newspaper and so deadlines and you know like having that that high

like having that that high high stress environment was a

high stress environment was a a good place for me

a good place for me um until it wasn't

um until it wasn't right

right for as with anything but um

for as with anything but um yeah i i thrive off that stress and that

yeah i i thrive off that stress and that pressure and i and i created it a little

pressure and i and i created it a little bit myself in terms of you know i think

bit myself in terms of you know i think a lot of athletes find uh

a lot of athletes find uh find the naysayers or the you know the

find the naysayers or the you know the the haters

the haters as motivation

as motivation and there was certainly a

and there was certainly a time period where i wanted to prove

time period where i wanted to prove people wrong

people wrong and then that shifted to wanting to

and then that shifted to wanting to prove myself right and to keep my own

prove myself right and to keep my own promises to myself

promises to myself and and there being real satisfaction in

and and there being real satisfaction in that through that process

that through that process and so

and so how i deal with my stress you know i

how i deal with my stress you know i think that it's all an opportunity

think that it's all an opportunity every day in training and competing and

every day in training and competing and being an athlete as an opportunity to

being an athlete as an opportunity to share more of my experience with the

share more of my experience with the world to be a role model for other

world to be a role model for other people

people and to be

and to be someone that other people can not only

someone that other people can not only be inspired by but but find aspirational

be inspired by but but find aspirational as well like can can create their own

as well like can can create their own version of my experience that fits

version of my experience that fits themselves

themselves i am a big fan of visualization of uh

i am a big fan of visualization of uh meditation you know of mindfulness of

meditation you know of mindfulness of taking quiet time and and centering

taking quiet time and and centering myself and i think that as much of my

myself and i think that as much of my more recent work has been

more recent work has been you know it's been mental as much as

you know it's been mental as much as it's been physical

it's been physical and

and and i think carving out that time is

and i think carving out that time is probably the hardest part

probably the hardest part you know it's it's easy to check off the

you know it's it's easy to check off the boxes of saying okay i have a two hour

boxes of saying okay i have a two hour training session here or you know i have

training session here or you know i have to hit the gym and do this um but to to

to hit the gym and do this um but to to say to prioritize mental training as

say to prioritize mental training as much as the physical training has been

much as the physical training has been harder

harder but i think that that's been how i've

but i think that that's been how i've sort of achieved a balance in

sort of achieved a balance in you know in

you know in overall wellness because i think

overall wellness because i think i'm also a coach and it's it's really

i'm also a coach and it's it's really easy for me to prescribe this to my

easy for me to prescribe this to my athletes knowing what i know and harder

athletes knowing what i know and harder to follow myself but you know the

to follow myself but you know the visualization the the looking back at my

visualization the the looking back at my training logs taking that time to to do

training logs taking that time to to do the mental work the the affirmations and

the mental work the the affirmations and things like that

things like that has been

has been really really helpful and also the

really really helpful and also the hardest to do

hardest to do even harder than formula

and what

what i mean each athlete and themselves and

i mean each athlete and themselves and each person in themselves will have

each person in themselves will have their own values that they they believe

their own values that they they believe make them not only who they are but as

make them not only who they are but as an athlete as well

an athlete as well what are some of the values that you

what are some of the values that you believe

believe have been

have been crucial to to you gaining the success

crucial to to you gaining the success that that you've had

that that you've had on the bike on the road um even walking

on the bike on the road um even walking as well so the race walking what what do

as well so the race walking what what do you believe some of those values are

you believe some of those values are yeah you know i struggle is it like is

yeah you know i struggle is it like is it values is it

it values is it i i don't know that i necessarily call

i i don't know that i necessarily call them values but like so so like my

them values but like so so like my foundational elements right are i think

foundational elements right are i think they all came from playing youth sports

they all came from playing youth sports and that's that's the first you know

and that's that's the first you know really important to note and again one

really important to note and again one of the reasons why every young person

of the reasons why every young person should have the opportunity to play

should have the opportunity to play sports

sports all of the great things that i love

all of the great things that i love about myself and that have helped me be

about myself and that have helped me be successful

successful in the workplace in

in the workplace in in sports have come from playing sports

in sports have come from playing sports as a kid

as a kid and it's the the resilience and

and it's the the resilience and dedication

dedication um you know keeping my promises so to

um you know keeping my promises so to myself and to other people so there's a

myself and to other people so there's a loyalty component of being on a team

loyalty component of being on a team that's really important to me

that's really important to me and

and goal setting you know time management

goal setting you know time management communication skills leadership skills

communication skills leadership skills working with others who are not like you

working with others who are not like you all of those things come from playing

all of those things come from playing sports and i think all of them are

sports and i think all of them are essential to

essential to to me

to me being successful

being successful in in in anything that i do now all of

in in in anything that i do now all of those came from from sports and i think

those came from from sports and i think also my midwest upbringing so there's

also my midwest upbringing so there's something about the midwest in the

something about the midwest in the united states is um is hard working you

united states is um is hard working you know um humble and you know put your

know um humble and you know put your head down grind do the work and and let

head down grind do the work and and let your let your actions speak for you

your let your actions speak for you and i think that's been really important

and i think that's been really important i think not only for your

i think not only for your the the messages that you are sending

the the messages that you are sending out to the world and the experiences

out to the world and the experiences that you've had

that you've had but in general

but in general sport for me is one of the best tools

sport for me is one of the best tools for it can be a it can be tough for

for it can be a it can be tough for inclusivity and i'm sure you've

inclusivity and i'm sure you've experienced that but it can be one of

experienced that but it can be one of the best tools for it as well because

the best tools for it as well because i think about my experiences the people

i think about my experiences the people that i have

that i have i have met and i have played with i've

i have met and i have played with i've played against

played against race religion

race religion upbringing like so echo economic social

upbringing like so echo economic social background like it's completely varied

background like it's completely varied and i would never have had those

and i would never have had those experiences

experiences if it wasn't for sport and travel and

if it wasn't for sport and travel and being able to move from place to place i

being able to move from place to place i found it really interesting i've spent a

found it really interesting i've spent a lot of time in australia and there are

lot of time in australia and there are some pockets of australia especially

some pockets of australia especially where i was

where i was that people

that people i honestly believe if we were having

i honestly believe if we were having this conversation i can put myself if we

this conversation i can put myself if we were sitting in a place we're having

were sitting in a place we're having this conversation

this conversation there would be things being thrown at us

there would be things being thrown at us like it's so

like it's so it's 25 years behind in some areas

it's 25 years behind in some areas and

and i thought to myself like why is that and

i thought to myself like why is that and and it's down to the fact that travel

and it's down to the fact that travel and being open to different people and

and being open to different people and people's perspectives and outlooks and

people's perspectives and outlooks and beliefs

beliefs that that you you can create that

that that you you can create that openness in yourself and and i i pride

openness in yourself and and i i pride myself on that for me that i have been

myself on that for me that i have been able to interact with so many different

able to interact with so many different people and just get on with them on such

people and just get on with them on such a human basis because that's all you you

a human basis because that's all you you are like you are just the human being

are like you are just the human being that is trying to do the best you can in

that is trying to do the best you can in whatever upbringing and situation you've

whatever upbringing and situation you've had and sport brought that sport brought

had and sport brought that sport brought that 100

that 100 yeah more than anything i think being a

yeah more than anything i think being a good person is is my

good person is is my baseline metric for success and so

baseline metric for success and so you know i i am i'm an athlete who i

you know i i am i'm an athlete who i don't want to win at the expense of of

don't want to win at the expense of of harming someone else right i like i'm

harming someone else right i like i'm not going to cheat to win right so like

not going to cheat to win right so like that that is really important to me to

that that is really important to me to to be a good person and to be a good

to be a good person and to be a good role model and i think you're absolutely

role model and i think you're absolutely right i've always said that sport is a

right i've always said that sport is a vehicle for social change and i truly

vehicle for social change and i truly believe

believe that

that well i said you know sport was such a

well i said you know sport was such a safe space for me as a young person and

safe space for me as a young person and even now as an adult and it's not a safe

even now as an adult and it's not a safe space for all people like me and so it

space for all people like me and so it holds both of these you know both of

holds both of these you know both of these are true that it is a very unsafe

these are true that it is a very unsafe space for some people and it also can be

space for some people and it also can be the most affirming and welcoming

the most affirming and welcoming experience because of the dynamics of a

experience because of the dynamics of a team and you know people working hard

team and you know people working hard together towards a common goal

together towards a common goal meeting people who are not like you

meeting people who are not like you different races religions gender

different races religions gender identities you know backgrounds

identities you know backgrounds experiences

experiences all of that

all of that it's it's so important because i think

it's it's so important because i think if we can create change if i

if we can create change if i specifically can create change in sports

specifically can create change in sports on our sports teams of people meeting me

on our sports teams of people meeting me of getting to know me of understanding

of getting to know me of understanding trans identity a little more that that

trans identity a little more that that ripples out into the rest of the world

ripples out into the rest of the world because we are not just athletes in

because we are not just athletes in isolation you know i'm i'm an athlete

isolation you know i'm i'm an athlete but i have friends who are not in sports

but i have friends who are not in sports and i have a partner and i have a family

and i have a partner and i have a family and i have communities and events that i

and i have communities and events that i go to and you know if

go to and you know if if you and i can have this conversation

if you and i can have this conversation and then you talk about it with your

and then you talk about it with your friends and then they talk about it with

friends and then they talk about it with their children and you know that's how

their children and you know that's how change happens and it starts within

change happens and it starts within sport and so it just gives me such great

sport and so it just gives me such great hope despite

hope despite the bad policies that are being put

the bad policies that are being put forward despite

forward despite you know the world rugby's banned on all

you know the world rugby's banned on all transgender women in sports despite

transgender women in sports despite these things that are happening in

these things that are happening in athletics for trans and non-binary

athletics for trans and non-binary people in sports right now it gives me

people in sports right now it gives me such great hope to know that that change

such great hope to know that that change is possible in sports and that that

is possible in sports and that that could influence the change around the

could influence the change around the globe

globe do you think it's moving in the right

do you think it's moving in the right direction

direction uh fairness and uh

uh fairness and uh do you think

do you think it's a big topic but like is it do you

it's a big topic but like is it do you feel it's moving in the right direction

feel it's moving in the right direction obviously you've spoken about those

obviously you've spoken about those people pushing the other way

people pushing the other way yeah but do you feel as a general

yeah but do you feel as a general well i think

well i think my recovery process in hip surgery is a

my recovery process in hip surgery is a great uh example for this it's great

great uh example for this it's great parallel right progress is not always

parallel right progress is not always linear and so it's not any and any

linear and so it's not any and any athlete knows that the process of

athlete knows that the process of getting better means that there are some

getting better means that there are some days that really suck and there are some

days that really suck and there are some days that really hurt and that that

days that really hurt and that that doesn't mean that we're not moving in

doesn't mean that we're not moving in the right direction that but it's more

the right direction that but it's more peaks and valleys than it is just a

peaks and valleys than it is just a straight line going up and so

straight line going up and so i do believe that we're moving in the

i do believe that we're moving in the right direction because we're having

right direction because we're having these conversations and and while the

these conversations and and while the conversations are really

conversations are really you know clashing and there there are

you know clashing and there there are two extreme sides i do believe that

two extreme sides i do believe that there is this whole group of people who

there is this whole group of people who are open-minded who are

are open-minded who are just unsure or unaware of the facts and

just unsure or unaware of the facts and and lack in education or understanding

and lack in education or understanding or even the experience of talking to

or even the experience of talking to somebody who's trans and that

somebody who's trans and that you know those are those are the people

you know those are those are the people who give me hope because there are

who give me hope because there are people who are firmly camped on either

people who are firmly camped on either side of inclusion or exclusion that are

side of inclusion or exclusion that are unwilling to have conversations that are

unwilling to have conversations that are unwilling to be open to having their

unwilling to be open to having their perspective changed

perspective changed and those people

and those people i i don't engage with those folks

i i don't engage with those folks right so if someone already said like

right so if someone already said like has their mind firmly made up

has their mind firmly made up there's no personal

there's no personal value for me to spend my energy or time

value for me to spend my energy or time trying to move them from a position that

trying to move them from a position that they've so firmly rooted themselves in

they've so firmly rooted themselves in but for all those people who are open to

but for all those people who are open to learning more who are open to hearing

learning more who are open to hearing about my experience or considering new

about my experience or considering new information you know i think i have

information you know i think i have great hope that that we're moving in the

great hope that that we're moving in the right direction i think we're going to

right direction i think we're going to see

see more inclusive policies in professional

more inclusive policies in professional sports um and i know that because i'm

sports um and i know that because i'm working on them i know but

working on them i know but right now uh we're going to see more

right now uh we're going to see more policies that include non-binary

policies that include non-binary athletes and we're going to have more

athletes and we're going to have more conversations like we've like we've had

conversations like we've like we've had in the lead-up to the olympics and

in the lead-up to the olympics and paralympic games

paralympic games and those conversations will continue

and those conversations will continue and i think that we can no longer

and i think that we can no longer pretend that trans people don't exist

pretend that trans people don't exist and don't want to play sports

and don't want to play sports and the next step is just getting people

and the next step is just getting people to understand what that actually means

to understand what that actually means like you know who trans people are that

like you know who trans people are that we're not

we're not pretending to be someone else that we're

pretending to be someone else that we're not trying to gain a competitive

not trying to gain a competitive advantage that we we are athletes like

advantage that we we are athletes like any other athlete and we play sports for

any other athlete and we play sports for the same reasons as anybody else does

the same reasons as anybody else does because

because you know we want to move our bodies we

you know we want to move our bodies we love to be competitive we want to you

love to be competitive we want to you know

know want to be connected to our teammates

want to be connected to our teammates and our communities

and our communities and because we love the game

and because we love the game yeah

yeah this beautifully said

this beautifully said everything you've just put there look

everything you've just put there look i've realized how long we've gone and i

i've realized how long we've gone and i don't want to take up any more of your

don't want to take up any more of your time than i've already cheekily took

time than i've already cheekily took away um

away um but people can find you on twitter and

but people can find you on twitter and instagram at the chrismosia and

instagram at the chrismosia and transathlete.com that's that's the main

transathlete.com that's that's the main reason are there any other resources

reason are there any other resources that you you recommend people go to to

that you you recommend people go to to to learn to discover more

to learn to discover more yeah it's mostly uh twitter is uh you

yeah it's mostly uh twitter is uh you know rants and and commentary uh

know rants and and commentary uh instagram is is more of that uh and ways

instagram is is more of that uh and ways that people can get involved

that people can get involved transatlantic.com is the main one but

transatlantic.com is the main one but coming soon uh non-binaryathlete.com

coming soon uh non-binaryathlete.com for

for folks uh in in non-binary um

folks uh in in non-binary um sport policy coming soon so keep your

sport policy coming soon so keep your eyes open for that

eyes open for that look i i've loved

look i i've loved spending this time with you and getting

spending this time with you and getting to meet you um

to meet you um and like you mentioned these

and like you mentioned these conversations hopefully have some sort

conversations hopefully have some sort of ripple effect

of ripple effect and i think

and i think whoever's listening i hope they can take

whoever's listening i hope they can take something out of this have learned

something out of this have learned something

something and can create that little ripple effect

and can create that little ripple effect in their own community to have that

in their own community to have that conversation whether it's at a dinner

conversation whether it's at a dinner table with someone who

table with someone who may have a

may have a certain stance or

certain stance or ideology around around these subjects

ideology around around these subjects and and that's what i hope the most from

and and that's what i hope the most from a conversation like this and i really

a conversation like this and i really appreciate your openness and your

appreciate your openness and your vulnerability and your your honesty and

vulnerability and your your honesty and everything and and so thank you so much

everything and and so thank you so much for for doing this

for for doing this thank you for having me i've loved our

thank you for having me i've loved our conversation and i i love what you're

conversation and i i love what you're doing with the podcast and with your app

doing with the podcast and with your app um i'm a big fan so thank you so much

um i'm a big fan so thank you so much thank you so much chris appreciate it

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YouTube Transcript:#97 - Chris Mosier | Trailblazing Trans Athlete

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#97 - Chris Mosier | Trailblazing Trans Athlete