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Webinar What on Earth is a 10 Star Home

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started all right welcome everybody to

builders declares 19th webinar um

what on earth is a 10 star home

my name is hamish white one of the

founding members of builders declare and

director of sanctum homes and i'll be

your host for this evening

i'd like to begin by acknowledging the

traditional owners of the land on which

we meet today and i'd also like to pay

my respects to elders past present and emerging

with the upcoming changes to the ncc

this coming september we will see our

code change from six star to seven star

so today's webinar is very timely

but why shoot for seven stars when you

can achieve a stand a 10 star rating

but what on earth is a 10 star home and

does it really work on today's webinar

we are joined by energy efficiency

expert jim wilcock from suho and he'll

explore what a 10 star home is

whether it works as intended and if it

also meets the strict criteria of

passive house

jim will cover the 10 star home which is suho's

suho's

display home in south australia what it is

how does it work what were the goals for

the 10 star home what does the data say

and comparing that hers and passive house

house

does the home meet the passive house

international standards

a little bit about jim jim wilcock is a

third generation construction expert who

is a pash is passionate about

sustainability and energy efficiency

jim has over 25 years of experience both

as a site supervisor in his earlier years

years

and more than 15 years in building simulation

simulation

as a network assessor jim knows a lot

about houses in the rating scheme and is

capable of giving detailed advice on all

building matters

now leading a team of 25 working under

the banner of suho

jim is keen to show the impact of high

performing buildings on australian

occupants and aims to create a better

we don't actually have a sponsor for

tonight's webinar so i thought it would

be a really great opportunity to give a

huge shout out to the other founding

members of builders declare

without their help this webinar is not

possible the instagram and facebook

accounts would not be delivering you all

valuable information

and the podcast sustainable builders yak

wouldn't exist

so i want to give a massive shout out to

the other six founding members of

builders declare

jessie from g-lux builders

michael lim from michael lim builders

simon from sustainable homes melbourne

brian from ismart builders over in perth

mick murphy from online builders

and finally jeremy jeremy spencer the og

of sustainability and director of

positive footprints

all right let's kick off today's event

uh the information you're about to

receive is based on the experience of

the presenters and may not relate to

your situation

if you'd like more specific advice

please get in touch with us by our email

today's webinar will be around about 45

to 50 minutes

and we'll then have around 10 to 15

minutes to answer any questions at the

end um i really would love

for you guys to fire as many questions

as you can at us and we'll hope to cover

them at the end

um all right jim i'm going to throw it

over to you

all right thanks very much uh hainish

thanks the opportunity we've put a lot

of effort into the 10 star house

house

so it's wonderful to have the

opportunity to um

wonderful to have the opportunity to

talk to people about it

so this is what i'm going to talk about

uh today uh so a little bit about suho

and where the 10 star house came from

um i've spent a lot of time doing

natters and

it's always sort of put together but

there is a difference between what the

scheme is and what the scheme aims for

and what the matter software does and

what it aims for

um and then i'll do a little bit of pr

comparison between nato's passive house

and whether the 10 star house is a

passive house or not

and then i've got some data about that

we've recorded from the 10 star about

whether it works

and then finally i've got where there's

a tool that we've been working on called

hubble which people can use to estimate

their own

energy rating very simply

and so i'll run i'll run through that

and if people are interested afterwards

they can they can get onto hubble and

and get access to it and have a play

with it

all right so here we go

so this is a image of the tensed house

there's a website

there for it if you want to have a look um

so a lot of the aims of the house were

to uh build it on a on a on a standard

sort of block so it's on a 300 square

meter block and in a standard sort of development

development

so it wasn't some

sort of experimental greenfields

greenfields idea

so sumho is uh the company i've been

working in uh for a long a long time now

and we've done a lot of energy ratings

uh over that time across the country and

so we've built up a whole load of

knowledge about how the software sees

sees buildings in that time

and as i'm sure plenty of other people know

know

not everyone out there is interested in

building high performance buildings

and so we've had plenty of time

over the journey

to deal with a lot of houses that um for

you know for various reasons costs principally

principally

have just tried to scrape through the ncc

ncc

uh and so a lot of the 10 star house for

us was about building something that we

could show to people our clients

included and say hey you know here's a

high-performing building this is how you

can do it

and these the this is the the outcome

that you can get and the house has been

built for a couple of years and in that

time we've had loads of different people from

from

governments through

people who are interested in building

the house and then lots of industry as well

well

builders and architects designers

to come and have a look at it keep the

tires and and see what they thought

about it

so that's that's any um partly partly

because we could and partly a bit out of

frustration about not being it's not

seeing what was going we're not seeing

this sort of house being built

um but that's that's it uh and we tried

to build we tried to build a normal

house and so this is another another

view of the house so you can see that

you can see the passive passive design

there already with the pergola

and the blinds on the upper on the upper windows

windows

and here's another view another view

from the inside

and so one of the things that we found

in trying to build the house to a 10

star to a 10 star standard was that

loads of other things became involved in

it to get it to 10 stars uh the windows

need to be to such a level that the

house needs to be quite airtight

and then if the house is too airtight

it's it's going to be um it's going to

be unhealthy

and so okay well we need to put a heat

recovery ventilation system in it uh and then

then

natas is only about their heating and

cooling energy so what else what else

can we do so we've done a a quite a

number of other things uh inside and

just looking at this image

image

so pointing out some things so

on the left hand side around the windows

you can see the reverse brick veneer so

that's using its thermal mass

using its thermal mass to keep the

building warm

the green

tiles that you can see above the above

the kitchen there are actually glazed

bricks so we were able to remove one

layer of materials

there by not having to have tiles by

just having the bricks glazed you can

see the floor is a dark color and i'll

talk more about that later on but that's

that color so that it absorbs more heat

as the heat comes in through the

through the glass and

and

what else what else can we see so

there's more reverse brick veneer there

um and the the ceiling uh is sort of

built upside down um

so that there's a service layer so if

you if you uh have a look at hamish and

and jesse's um

webinar previously they talked a lot

about how to how to build service layers

into things so you're not getting the penetration

penetration

um and

you can see the um the hiv vents

uh in the in the wall there so anyway

it's unfortunate i can't take you

through a full tour uh but that's um

but that's a few of the things that

we've we've worked on uh in that sense

uh and here's a plan of the house so

again we use the software to design it

and another another of the builders

declare webinars that i

highly recommend is jeremy's um

acing a seven star if you need to know

about natters and how it works and how

to how to orientate your design how to

be the um

how to how to be the sun and the wind

then um i highly recommend going and

looking at that but we use the software

uh here to design the house so it's

about 110 square meters um you can see

that there are three bedrooms in it and

one one sort of one living area

and so that was really coming out of the

software what did what did the design

need to be to

reach the 10 stars and then after that

how could we massage that design to make

it a nice livable house

and we we spent a fair bit on the

finishes as you could see from the the

receipt from the images

and so it's it's um it's turned out very

well we're very happy with the with the

final final finishing of it and the feel

of it uh and particularly i think the

thing i most enjoy about it is the is

the air tightness and the hiv it's very

busy road outside and you close the

close the door

with the decent glazing and the air

tightness you can't hear can't hear the

traffic uh but you can still you still

get a feeling of the um

of the air moving through the building

uh from the hiv it's a really lovely uh

feeling too of it feels like a great

building inside

all right so that's the house in a very small

small

in a very small nutshell

i want to go on and talk about matters

and what it means to get the house 10

stars and then we can talk about whether

the 10 star house actually actually

works in the way that it works in the

way that it should oh i'll just go back

to the just go back to the house there

we the only thing that we really needed

to do on the smaller block was to bring

the house back onto its onto its

southern boundary so north up the page

we brought the house down to the

southern southern boundary we had to buy

the two blocks so that we're allowed to

do that we built an eight star house

next door

we've sold that one since but just while

i'm here talking about the design

just trying to get the design

specified like that

so we could make sure we got the sun in

the windows which again i'll talk about

in a minute

but moving along to

more boring things the

the

so natas is two things that ears is a scheme

scheme

which is run by the federal government

it's the nationwide house energy rating scheme

scheme

and again jeremy described this really

well in his his webinar

and what scheme does is it sets a

minimum number of stars that houses need

to get to get their compliance through

the sort of construction code so the

optimal words there are minimum so it's

setting the minimum it's not looking for

high performance buildings at all

and it's set through the construction

code and then separately to that in a

sense is the software that's been

developed by csiro

and so that's the natto software and

there's four different parts and the ski

the people in the scheme

regulate and accredit the software for

the star ratings

but if you're interested in high

performance buildings you can use the

software uh to go above above the

minimum and so in talking about whether

the 10 star house and

you know is a is a nether's house

and or whether it's a passive house sort

of that division between the two the two

things i think is quite important

okay so a little bit more on how the

software works um

this the part on the left hand side with

the plan and the windows and the

insulation is what the builder or the

design app provides

and they send and then they give that to

the assessor who puts it into the software

software

and the software has the naspers

software has a climate file for every

location in it which is very important

and it has an occupancy pattern so it's

like there's a formula family living

inside the house

and so when the assessor clicks the go

button the software is trying to

calculate what the temperature is in

each room for each hour of the year and

it's getting the data from whether

there's sun and wind and so on from the

climate file for the location

and it's also opening and closing the

windows and the blinds if there are any

and so on

and that's done by this formula family

that live inside the software and run

around and open and close these open and

close these windows

and so the output of the software is

sorry the output of the software uh is

this is these temperatures and so the

from the software you can get what the

software expects the temperature to be

in each room for each each hour of the

year and that's been that's been

verified a number of times where people

have built houses and monitored them and

then checked to see whether the software is

meeting those temperatures and so that's

the good that's the good part and can

really be used to analyze high

performance high performance buildings

um and then what happens as far as the

regulation goes is the the scheme takes

hold of that that information about the temperatures

temperatures

and works out what a comfortable

temperature range is again from the an

average family

and then uses that to try and work out

what the minimum requirement should be

for that house

and that's where your six star six star

rating comes in so

the the software as far as i understand

the software works well at predicting

the temperatures

but there's a few assumptions made when

the software is when the when the scheme

then takes those temperatures and turns

them into a star rating

and principally it does that by setting

some star star bands and it says okay

well if your house is expected to use

this much heating and cooling uh to keep

itself within a comfortable temperature

range uh then uh you know it has this

this star band

and they're different for each climate

and so i've got a little chart here

and so the nether's

star bands

uh this is for i've chosen a cold one a

temperate one and a warmer one

and you can see that the allowance given

by the government for each

each six star assessment is is different

uh depending on the location of where

the of where the building is

and so i've put in

six stars seven stars and and eight stars

stars

and i'm concentrating on the seven and

eight because that's when the building

tends to get decoupled from the extra

outside temperature so as the outside

temperature goes up uh the inside

temperature doesn't

but it does show that if you live in in

brisbane because the weather's so much

nicer up there

and you're going to be comfortable in

your house with a lot less heating of cooling

cooling

than you are in melbourne where it's so

so cold

you can see that the allowance that's

given by the government of what the

minimum requirement should be for that

six stars

so that's how the natters that's how the

network scheme

scheme works it uses this piece of

software and then applies some rules to

it and comes out with an allowance

for us

now how does that how does that relate

to how does that relate to passive house

and so i'm no passive house expert and

please uh point out when we when we're

going into the the time uh the question

time afterwards please point out or i

get this wrong

but um

looking at the passive house criteria on

the website there seemed to be four of

them thermal performance energy demand

air tightness and thermal comfort

and so there was some heating and

cooling demands there

so energy demands for the appliances

your air tightness

and then how many hours the building

could spend over 10 over 25 degrees if

it wasn't heated or cooled and these are

all really great these are all really

great things

but does the natters software consider

it so yes the natas software considers

thermal performance it doesn't look at

energy demand at all

and so that's why in the new code

they're planning in bringing in the

the

whole of house assessment and again i'll

refer you back to jeremy's webinar for a

really good description of how that how

that works

natas software does have air tightness

in it but the allowance is like

10 or 12 air changes per hour so it the

software considers it but it doesn't

really the scheme doesn't regulate it

and the thermal comfort is is considered

again it's something you can get out of

the network software but it's not

something that's regulated for

uh and so this is why i'm trying to try

to make the difference between the net

software which is good to use as a as a

as a design design tool if you want a

high performance building

and then that earth scheme uh which only

looks at the heating and cooling demand

and sets a much lower barrier than the natters

natters

than the nat host does and i've got a

little i've got a picture for that

um and so this is the same the same

graph as we had

uh previously

uh except i've put in i've converted the

matters here sorry the passive house

criteria is in kilowatt hours per meter

squared per year and

and

that is done in megajoules per meter

squared so it's a reasonably easy

conversion to convert that and so the

green bar is the same across each climate

climate

uh in terms of if this is the correct

and please correct me if i'm wrong if

this 15 kilowatt hours is the per meter

squared per year is the correct amount

then it's the same across each each climate

climate

but the star ratings differ by the star

ratings differ by

by climate uh and so

that's one of the differences between

the two between natters and and

passivhaus is that use of the climate

file to

assess the amount of heating or cooling

that's needed changes as the climate

file changes uh rather than having a

a um

a static value that's the same for everywhere

everywhere

and the difference there i guess is that

um that can change your construction

cost cost quite markedly so that if you

don't need to go as i mean if you need

to get to eight stars in melbourne

that's one one cost but in adelaide you

may only need to get to seven and a half

stars to reach the reach the passive house

house

standard and of course in in brisbane

even six stars if this is correct even

six stars is

is about along those along those lines

um but the i mean the other part of it is

with the passive houses you can get certified

certified

and it's much more looking at the

construction of how you actually go

about doing it whereas natters is just a

desk exercise that says okay well this

is what you're planning to do

and this is the amount of you know

insulation and so on that you've got in

there and this is the result that you

should get

at that at that point

but it doesn't have anything to do with

how the building actually gets constructed

constructed

and unfortunately there's no checking of

the buildings once they are constructed

that would be a lovely thing in terms of

getting better performing buildings

actually on the ground that would really help

help

all right so um then

uh just going on to the 10 star house

again after that sort of comparison or

pointing out the differences between the

natters and the the passivhaus

so here's the entire star band for for

adelaide so you know zero stars is

nearly 600

megajoules per meter squared

six stars

down here is um

is 96

megajoules per meter squared and

so i think passive house is somewhere around

around

seven and a half stars from the slide previously

previously

and the 10 star house is allowed to use three

three

megajoules per meter squared and most of

that i think is about um

most of that i think is about

a dehumidification so taking the water

out of the air as you call the cool the

air down because you can't get away

can't get away from that and so uh back

in the day uh when we were doing five

star ratings when that was the maximum

there was no uh there was no carrot to

keep uh to make people move towards or

let them understand how well their

buildings were

were performing

and so they changed the ratings to go

from 0 to 10

and so apparently a 10 star house should

keep itself within a comfortable

temperature range all year round with no

heating or cooling

at all and it was a i mean as a desktop

exercise in terms of trying to design

the building and specify it

i'd change a window and i'd lose half a

mega joule which would drop me down to 9.9

9.9

and i'm not sure if people would be

interested in coming and seeing a 9.9

star house women are so um so we had to

get it back up to 10 so that's that uh

that exercise was quite it was quite

frustrating uh

in that but that's as low as you can go

in the current software i think if they

do change it for the new with the new code

code

i think the uh i think it'll be

i think it'll be somewhat more be much

easier to get up to that 10 star up to

that 10 star level

just as an aside other work other other

um research work that we've done

shows that the building will um at about

this sort of seven seven and a half

eight star level that's the sort of

level that the building will stop

following the outside temperature so as

the you know six star house as the

outside temperature goes up then the

inside temperature goes up almost automatically

automatically

um it's obviously somewhat better than a

three-star house or whatever but it's

not all that much it's really not until

you really hit the seven and a half

which funnily enough is the same as the

passive house

it means that the the as the outside

temperature goes up the inside

temperature stays constant so i don't

think i'd ever build a 10 star house

again i think that the sweet spot is

around about this eight star eight star

level uh it's just too hard to get it

down to down to ten you've got to spend

too much money on the glazing and the

insulation and so on and the the design

has to be has to be exact um and the

start has to be exact um and if if i was

if i was building a normal house or

building a house now i'd stop at eight

and if i had extremely extra money over

i'd go and buy an electric car or

something to reduce my overall

overall

carbon footprint rather than

rather than looking at the rather than

okay um and uh so just talking about

what a 10 star the difference between a

six star house and a ten star house uh

means as far as the software as far as

the software sees it um and i guess just

making a little pro a little comment

there that a lot of this stuff is coming

out of the software and while the

temperatures have been have been have

been checked it's really a bit about how

the software sees the world but anyway

on the left hand side what you're

looking at on the left hand side is a

six star house

and you can see that and what the graphs

show is the number of hours for the

entire year that the living area spends

at those particular temperatures so you

can see it spends say 50 hours at 13

degrees uh and these are the these hours

are the ones where the where the

software thinks that people are actually

the formula family are actually in the

living room so it's between 7 a.m and

midday i'm sorry midnight i think

anyway so the the spread of temperatures

uh is between 13 and and 36 uh the the

comfortable temperature range between 20

and 25 is probably where the at least

half or the majority of the time is

spent but there's still considerable

time spent

uh below that

below that

20 degree

comfortable temperature range

and there was an article recently in the

in the newspaper saying that the world

health health organization was saying

that anything below 18 degrees wasn't it

wasn't good for you

anyway uh but you can see how how wide

apart those are uh if you look at the 21

degrees then that spends about

the 20 degrees the building spends about

a thousand hours there and so then

looking at the 10 star house

on the right you can see that the graph

has been compressed and all the hours

are now between 19 degrees and say 28 or

29 um the reason it's allowed to get up

there above the 25 uh is due to the

ceiling fan so the software sees ceiling

fans as allowing the temperature to go

up a few degrees

and the people still to be comfortable

inside there

but you can see at say 22 uh there's 2

400 hours uh as opposed to the you know

for the highest one as opposed to a

thousand on the other side so there's a

difference in the difference in the

graph there uh but visually it's quite

easy to see that the all the hours have

been squashed into a much more

comfortable temperature range

than a six star house a six star house

okay uh and this is

a year's worth of measured data

um and so

this is

uh the the pink line or the lighter red

uh is the outside highest outside

temperatures the darker blue line

underneath is the minimum temperature

and then the

blue and red lines that are on top of

each other

are the inside temperatures for the house

house

now net net is there's uh 20 to 25

degrees as its estimate

and if we put a little box in there so

that you can see that

you can see that in the summer time uh

with no heating or calling

um it's with the hiv running though uh

it did it kept itself between its 20 to

25 degrees uh all year round uh but it

got a bit cold and it got a bit cold in

the winter so it weren't quite enough we

weren't getting quite enough sunshine in

through those north-facing windows onto

the dark

concrete floor the house was shut up so

it's been used as a display and no one

was living there so i don't think it

would take much

perhaps some people living in the house

maybe if they had a big dog or something

uh to um to warm that warm the house on

the house up and get it up to that level

it's certainly much better than the

outside outside temperature

however it's not quite inside what the

net has said it would be

at 10 stars

here's another graph of the same here's

another graph of the same thing

but just the hottest

days in in

the year

so we monitored the outside temperature

and you can see this is a pretty

standard uh adelaide uh heat spell where

it gets up to 40 degrees for a few days

in a row

and normally in a in a house with high

thermal mass that metal mass will heat

up and by the third or fourth

day you're taking your mattress out to

sleep in the backyard because it's so

hot inside

but you can see that the 10-star house

got up to 26 as a maximum so having

spent you know nearly 20 years talking

to people about this to actually have

this graph and being able to say well

uh it actually does work uh it's really

it's really quite a nice a nice thing

um and then uh in in the winter time uh

again it didn't stay at 20 which perhaps

you know which is what the software said

that it should do it's certainly uh

above that uh above the outside um

above the outside temperature and you

know perhaps some people living in the

house might have might have pushed it up

but so that's the actual that's the

actual temperatures versus versus what

the software or versus what the software

um and then this is probably the side

where i'm going to get into trouble

because i don't know perhaps enough

about passivhaus

but i just wanted to do a little

comparison between a six star

the 10 star house and would the 10 star

house pass passive house

and so

ceiling insulation

just excuse me while i run through these

ceiling insulation so r4 for a natter's

house 10 for the 10 star so that should

pass the passive house requirements same

for the same for the walls

reverse brick veneer there

so the windows specification so they

ended up was triple glazed windows with

thermally broken frames

there was user operable shading on the

ten start now i'm not sure if passivhaus

requires that as an actual requirement

or not or it just falls under the normal

falls under the requirement for thermal

thermal comfort

or temperature control

floor color again similar floor

insulation uh this was one at the time i

think a passive house required

underfloor insulation uh so the natters

software uh in adelaide uh because we've

got a bit it's a bit hotter um the the

house worked much better with the slab

on the ground rather than the slab on on

the insulation uh and i think i don't

know for sure but i think that's because

you get a bit of a

connection between the ground and the

slab and that might absorb some of the

heat through

and if you insulate underneath the slab

then you lose that and the rating goes

you know drop me half a half a star or

something if i put it there now if i try

and build a 10 star house and uh in

in um in in a melbourne climate zone uh

as we did for um

the uh design matters national uh

competitions the underfloor insulation

made a big difference in a positive in a

positive sense so again that's a climate specific

specific

requirement or climate specific

specification that perhaps

need to be aware of that in some in some

cases extra insulation works really well

and in other cases

not so much

and so in spooking the

the the natters there's nothing like

doing a simulation to work that out

we put efficient appliances in there

we put solar panels and batteries on

again i wasn't sure whether that was

actually needed in

in to pass a passive house

we just made the air tightness

so that works we put in a heat recovery

ventilation system uh the thermal

comfort is less than 10

under under 25 so that that works uh we

did a daylight study uh on on the house

so that we could make sure there was

enough daylight in there that's

certainly something that we can see

coming in that's outside perhaps or

certainly outside natas but maybe i'm

not sure about whether it's outside

passive house or not but certainly the the

the

a couple of the

the caspian councils down in melbourne

as part of their planning scheme and now

requiring people to do daylight studies

to make sure

that there's going to be enough

particularly for apartments so that

there's enough daylight coming coming in

and so you know that's part of building

a healthy and comfortable house is

getting enough enough light in so that

that's certainly certainly something to

look at

uh we spent a long time in the 10 star

on the source of the materials where

they came from the timber and

we tried to make it

as as locally good as locally made as we

could and lower carbon and looking to

the indoor air quality as well so

in terms of the types of paints and

finishes that we put on

uh putting the building so again i'm not

sure if that's a passive house a passive

house requirement uh or not and we

haven't had it we haven't had it

certified so

we haven't haven't uh ticked that ticket

tick that particular tick that

particular box so apologies for not

knowing more uh and being able to say

what was what but you can see how much

or how different the the 10 star is or

how much extra is in the in the 10 star

house from from the standard

standard six star

so i'll look forward to chatting about

all right i've got um i'm doing quite

well on my time

i've got this uh hubble to show

as well so i need to pop out of my

slides to do that

so in

through suho we've done a lot of

research work over the time

and we've tried to get it out there so

other people can can use it as well

and so

hubble is a is a little offshoot from uh from

from

suho and

it's called hubble because it's looking

for stars which is a bit of a pun but

um anyway i'll get on with it so you can

see let's see what's going on so i'm

hoping you can all

you can all see that so here's that was

the hubble front page

and when you log in this is what you get and

and

one of the problems with the energy

assessing business is that as energy

assessors we're separate from people

that actually need the information which

is the designers and the builders

and it's i'm sure it's very frustrating

as a designer or a builder to draw

something up uh and send it through to

the energy assessor who then sends it

back uh and says oh mate it doesn't pass

and then offers some

way of trying to fix it

which perhaps isn't isn't the most

either cost effective or meets with the

clients requirements

and everyone can burn up a lot of time

going backwards and forwards

and also uh the other area of assessors

uh for assessors that's difficult uh is

when people send us through a plan um

especially after they've been to the

council uh and the council says where's

your energy assessment and they're right

at the end stage they spend all their

money and they fall in love with their design

design

and then they send it through to us and

we tell them that they can't have can't

have that what they want so it can be a

bit heartbreaking so we're trying to get

out of that and make the energy rating

part of things more transparent for

everyone so i'll just run through i'll

just run through this um

so we'll go

it's on uh and we've tried to doing this

try to [Music]

[Music]

remove all the all the extra information so

you could get a single story or a double

storey building

um is the garage garage attached or not

attached for now

and you can set up a

front door uh

uh orientation

orientation and

i'll just

tell you on the south right so this is

where we are

and what this does is pick the uh

click on next

and then uh there's

some more drop downs to answer so we'll

make it a more able external wall

uh we won't have waterfall

we won't have any we won't have any room for

for insulation

insulation

so that's the anti-com type of insulation

insulation

um we'll put up a two in the in cavity

uh because or in the in the heel wall

because that's a

stand down here uh

steering insulation sand is about four

uh and generally we don't have we don't

go um before insulation uh

um and then floor coverings which make a

big difference to the energy rating so

we'll put carpet in a

bedrooms and we'll put polish concrete

so we'll leave off the ceiling fans and

the roof ventilation for now

and then uh there's all there's the windows

windows

so um we'll put a bit of window in the north

north

northeast and so this is just the total window

window area

[Music]

okay so that's added it up and then

we've got glazing

presets i put in the single glazed

aluminum standard that gives the u value

and the solar heat gain and [Music]

[Music]

and then that should give us that should

give us a result

uh and so that's

five and a half natters stars out of ten

the accuracy for putting any old

building in as we're doing now is about

plus or minus 10 which doesn't sound

like very much but it could be as much

as a as much as a star

however um

if you're doing a design for the

building and you want to see whether

you're at three stars or seven stars you

can certainly get that that out of here

uh there's an estimate of a yearly

energy bill uh which will be improved um

when we get the final hull of house a

final whole house calculation out

out

and so there's an energy consumption

and carbon and so on

um and

there's an optimism here here too

um and so

this is giving suggestions about

uh this is giving suggestions about how

what you could do to the house to

improve the energy rating

and so

there's anti-glare there's adding waffle

pods to the floor now i just went

through an explanation why that doesn't

work in adelaide so a lot of

demonstrations that's what it's all

about um floor insulation including

increasing the ceiling insulation and

adding ceiling fans and so on windows

uh so but if we go back to the um if we

and so okay

we're going to go for uh double glaze do

you pvc that's what high performance

like performance windows do that pushed

a bit hard

and so

we changed that

change to change the insulation um

too so pop in some ceiling fans you can search

changing it changing

changing and

and

i'll put in some [Music]

[Music]

and so we're getting up above the

getting up above the seven stars so this

is a this is a tool that

you can send hubble email and they'll

send you a login and you can use it

it's just in a sort of beta phase at the

moment so we're just we're keen on

getting people in uh to give it a go and

let us know what they let us know what

they think about it while we're working on

you know finalizing the accuracy and

putting in what's happening with the new

code as that as that comes through

all right so i hope that's interesting

interesting

i thought i'm getting near the end of my slides

slides [Music]

sorry [Music]

so going back to hubble

um and so some uh some take-home

messages from the information that i

tried to present

so i think that the natas software tools

work well in predicting thermal performance

performance

so they don't necessarily need to be

used just to do six-star assessments or

in star rating assessments in general

they can be used to do predict what the

temperatures are going to be inside the house

house

and they can they can certainly

certainly

show you the difference between one meth

building method or one material and another

another

and hopefully be able to reduce the cost

um passive house is such a good way to

prove as built uh performance i thought um

hamish and jesse's webinar was just

fantastic in the level of detail that

you can go to to make sure that you you

get your air tightness and get your

passive house performance that's what

the it's what the

performance building industry has really

needed is that piece about how to

connect it through to actually getting

the buildings built

on ground

uh if you're interested in hubble uh say

look them up send hubble and have an

email and i'll give you log in and you

can try it

and then

get more out of your accredited energy assessor

assessor

you know we we do this uh stuff day in

day out and we love to help people

because most of the buildings that we go

through we're just processing uh we love

to help people so um get on to

us or your energy assessor and when they

just give you a star rating and nothing

else say well i want to know about what

happens if i get this material or can

you show me a way to get a better

building uh for a less for for a

lower cost or can i use a different

material that has a lower carbon intensity

intensity

and so so spend some some time on your

design optimization

as assessors we can save people if they

want to reach a certain level of

performance whether you want to get up

to 10 stars or not

we can save people

on the on their on their construction by

providing the best performance for the

least amount of least amount of cost

all right and i think i've just got a

couple more pictures of my of the 10 star

star

uh to share and i think that's me i

all right thanks so much jim um i am

just going to put an apology out there

because my wife and kids are up the

stairs there uh i usually present this

from my studio up the back but the um

internet in miranda today for some

reason is not hitting my receiver

um jim thanks so much for that was super

interesting um i do have a few questions

here which hopefully we can um we can

answer and if anyone else does any have

any other questions

uh in the last 15 or so minutes please

pop them in the question or the on the

chat box and we'll we'll try and get to

them um

this is a question for me jim because um

i'm sure uh

some people out there are interested in

knowing this too but how does thermal

mass work in a in a building

uh the the thermal mass uh it works by

absorbing the absorbing the heat and

then re-releasing it

and so the the concept with the image

that we're looking at is the windows on

the left face north

in the winter time particularly we want

the sun

coming in through those windows and that

heats up the heats up the thermal mass

of the floor

and then when the sun sun goes away the

the floor re-radiates that heat back

into the building to keep the building warm

warm

and in trying to optimize that we've put

the bricks on the inside so it's a

reverse brick veneer house

so that the thermal masses on the inside

of the inside of the

house where it can be of use rather than

i have a little nerdy question for you

did you use um an internal air tightness

membrane for this home yep

yep

and then how did you connect the uh

bricks to the um to the studs if you had

an internal air type barrier or did you

you've got me um uh

uh i know that we got the air i know

that we got the air tightness okay but

as it's as a couple of years ago i'd

have to come back to you on the exact on

the exact construction there

that's right i thought i'd just throw

throw a curly one at you um

so i'll try and get through some of

these other questions um

can you tell us a little bit more about

the whole of house assessment that um uh

nat hurst is introducing later on this

year and what that what the difference

is between the current assessment and

the one that's

going to be um

uh used uh later on this year

yeah we don't know exactly what's going

to happen yet so my understanding

building ministers are going to meet

later this month and then i think on the

1st of october they're going to release

the new the new energy efficiency code

and so it's all a bit up in the air what

they have released so far

is is a whole of house assessment which

assesses the amount of

energy that the house would

would use depending on choices that you

make while doing the assessment for what

the appliances

for what the appliances are

are

and so again i refer back to you know

jeremy uh spencer's uh had a really good

um description of how this works so if

you really want the detail go back and

have a look at that

but essentially

the government's seems to be wanting to

give people a a minimum amount of uh

energy of energy that is permitted to

use in the house and if they want to use

more than that they can but they've got

to offset it by putting solar panels on

the roof

and so it's not a very it's not a very

difficult uh thing to meet um if

especially if your house is all electric

uh if you put in a gas space heating uh

into the into the calculator uh and you

put in um

a gas hot water heating uh then that

generally tips the balance so if you put

in an all-electric house so the thing passes

passes um

thanks for that um and this is from

erica uh and

i think i consider myself as a passive

house nerd um so hopefully between um

you and i jim we can we can explain this um

can you explain why the energy demand is

the same across all climates i'm gonna

let you go first then i'll give you my

thoughts on this okay

okay

um uh i think it's for simplicity

uh i think uh trying to do the star

bands across the across all the climate

zones there's a nightmare there's always

someone that says this isn't right it

should be this or it should be that

um and i think for for

us very if you which

which

the government's done it for i'm sure

for political reasons uh and because

they're just looking for a minimum

but if you want a high performance

building i guess you want a high

performance building across all climates

and so just putting on one uh just

putting on one figure makes it simple

for everyone

and you know you know what's going on

there could be a little overhang of the

the passivhaus uh coming out of a colder

climate where it's not as

it's not as vital for them to have a

different figure because they're really

just looking at the really just looking

at the heating uh so anyway they would

be i know that's all just my thoughts on

it there's no there's no

i think i think if you just referred

specifically to the graph and why the

passive house stayed at 15 kilowatt

hours that's the maximum um

heating load or heating demand that we

can put on a building so i guess that's

just there just to rip just to

i have an example of comparison between

the star rating how passive house works

um i guess each home in passive house

it's all

tested and measured so

we just need to get under that um 15

kilowatt hours

uh so it may actually change

you know from house to house that's just

a sort of a constant um comparison which

is what i'm assuming you put into the

graph there

yeah yeah so that was that was just

trying to provide some equivalence

between the between the two between the

two schemes and

it's i was happily

happily

surprised that it came out at that sort

of level where other research that we've

done shows that you're really getting

that that um the head into interior part

of that or interior temperature of the

house stops following the exterior so

it's it's it's that or below so you know

it's it's certainly a very good standard um

do you know of any six star homes that

have been verified to meet the predicted performance

performance

no that's a as i as i mentioned during

the during the presentation that's the

that's the bit that uh it would be

really good to see

that you're actually getting a building

inspection uh

as people are putting on the internal

linings of the building so that it can be

shown that the you know the building um

the insulation's been put in correctly

and all the other things that are in the

network the correct windows are

done and i think there was a previous

webinar that you guys have done

really went through that in great in

great detail which was fantastic

yeah so if anyone wants to jump on to

our last webinar with anthony from

outlyer we uh talked about why

we should be doing as built verifications

verifications um

this is from alexandra is there a

published case study for an eight star

house in climate zone four um now

correct me if i'm wrong with that sort

of southern australia sort of southern

western australia south australia and

victoria maybe southern new south wales um

given it seems as the eight star house

is a sweet spot to aim for so is there a

case study

uh not as not as far as i'm not as far

as i know uh if i was going looking for

that sort of information i'd be going to

the your home

the your home manual

manual

you could try try it out in hubble i

know climate zone 4 is is can be a bit

difficult because it's generally inland

and it goes i mean as as i'm sure people

know it gets very hot and very cold um

so you don't have the influence of the

sea to come calm things down in a

temperature in a temperature sense so if

you're getting up to eight stars in that

sort of climate you're doing pretty well

um can you explain uh more about

how the daylight study is done

um again it's a piece of it's a piece of

software um and uh you draw a you draw

up your building

uh and you put in the the windows uh and

it'll tell you what the lighting level

would be uh in each uh you know on each

square meter of the in each square meter

of the building um and i think the cosby

council set a minimum requirement for

the amount of amount of daylight which

you know you can put in the

overshadowing from buildings and trees

and things like that as well

so that you can make sure that you know

the occupants in the building are

getting at a minimum amount of a minimum

um i just had to mute myself because i

can hear my son singing upstairs while

they have um while they're having dinner

so just excuse me if that happens again um

this is a good this is an interesting

question because i probably don't know

the answer as to what um

uh air tightness and eight star house

needs but uh would an eight star house

require an hrv system i reckon it would

i think

i think the

it depends on how you go about how you

are about doing it but the the six star

you can still get away in the majority

of cases with single glazed aluminium windows

windows

and in my understanding they flex and

leak air and that's where the that's

where the

air movement for the

six star house

six star house comes from once you get

to eight stars

or even seven you need to go to double

glazing and the extra

framing that you need to support the

weight of the glass and the glass not

not flexing itself because there's two

two layers of it

mean that you're going to lose a lot of the

the

a lot of the um uh

sort of uh

ventilation that you were getting from

the leaking windows previously um and

certainly there's anecdotal evidence of

of when um

sort of seven eight star houses are

built if people pay attention to the air

movement uh that they you know you can

get um

you can get people getting headaches in

bedrooms and these sorts of things

because they're not getting enough

fresh air uh into them and it's

certainly uh you know in a sense it's a

it's a

there's a two-way thing there that

for air tightness uh in that you want

the air tightness because it's going to

keep the energy efficiency uh and you

need to you need to test to see whether

it is but in testing whether you see

whether you've got enough you want to

test to see whether you've not got too

much uh and in that case you'll need

some sort of external ventilation uh and

you might know more than me homeless but

it's difficult to find an air

conditioner in a domestic sense with a

fresh air makeup i think they can have

starting to produce one

but apart from that really the only way

um i'll

total anecdotal evidence and this is

just sort of

uh just chatter chattering about amongst

my colleagues that i we we kind of said

anything under five air changes an hour

um we really need to seriously consider

uh putting an hrv in um

i know cameron munro would argue that

you should put in every home just

because it's a you know a healthier

environment um

but you know anything below five air

changes you really want to be managing

first and foremost the moisture humidity

in the air and an hrv will do that um

but does it does do you test the air

tightness on eight star homes or is that just

just

is that something that you take in the

nethers or is that

so natters

you can't on the surface of it you can't

change it they're just starting to bring

that in it'll probably come in with the

with the next code change there'll be a

change to the to the software

technically it's quite difficult the way

they've got their software set up

technically it's quite difficult for them

them

um so anything over six stars will will

anything or anything we're involved in

actual construction off we'll test

uh ourselves uh anyway just because it

can i mean if if people try for it often

they'll go too far so often we get with

people who've done their own renovation

and they want us to come around and do

the air tightness tester just to see how

they've done because they want to they

want to know

and you'll find out for them that

they've that they've really made it

really quite airtight which is obviously

good but it's then something that they

need to be aware of in terms of um in

terms of making sure they get the right

amount of the right amount of

ventilation in there but natters itself

just assumes a blanket i think it's 12

air changes an hour so i mean for the 10

star house is actual performance because

it's so much more airtight than that it

was probably it probably does even

better than the

than what the software than what the

software says

it's probably a good example of why nat

hurst and the phpp

are both

valuable tools um when designing your home

home um

this is a question from elizabeth and

talking about like the form of the house

she says there's much more articulation

than i would have expected i'm

interested in your thoughts on floor

um so

this one was was designed it's got about

25 i think we know the floor area ratio

um generally for the higher star ratings

we can't go much over over 30

and certainly in the energy rating side

window area to floor area that's the one

that we've we've done

more of rather than we haven't really con

con

i haven't got a figure in my head for

the for the wall area certainly over

time though there has been there has

been studies uh showing that buildings

have become more regular and less articulated

articulated

and i think that's partly the energy

paintings but it's also partly the

blocks have got smaller and there's less

opportunity for

for designers to put

put more uh corners and things into the

into the buildings but

if you're as a very very broad rule of

thumb if you're looking to do a high

performance house then somewhere between

again i apologize for my um son singing

in the background there um

i agree with erica that the hubble tool

looks awesome and i'm really keen to um

have a go myself um where's the the data

that your the data and the hubble

estimations based on

um are they from previous energy rating

or are they more kind of a generic

information that you're putting in there

now they're based on it's based on

previous energy ratings we

had a tool that would do uh

tens of thousands of energy runs on the

same building

in an optimization sense um and so we fed that

fed that some millions of runs into a machine

some millions of runs into a machine learning or like an ai type thing

learning or like an ai type thing and then that now guesses what the

and then that now guesses what the energy rating and the heating load and

energy rating and the heating load and the cooling load are

the cooling load are so

so if we if you want accuracy we can train

if we if you want accuracy we can train this train the software specifically for

this train the software specifically for a specific design uh and that's where

a specific design uh and that's where we'll get to 99 accuracy uh there uh but

we'll get to 99 accuracy uh there uh but just in a general sense if you're

just in a general sense if you're popping any any building into it um as i

popping any any building into it um as i said it's probably about plus or minus

said it's probably about plus or minus plus or minus 10 percent but it is based

plus or minus 10 percent but it is based on actual natw's runs uh and then it's

on actual natw's runs uh and then it's been fed into an a into a machine

been fed into an a into a machine learning thing and which then tries to

learning thing and which then tries to guess what the what the energy rating is

um if you're happy to hang around for another few minutes i've got another few

another few minutes i've got another few questions here um

questions here um just in terms of thermal mass

just in terms of thermal mass does it work well if it's not in direct

does it work well if it's not in direct sunlight um this is from paul my view is

sunlight um this is from paul my view is that it just it

that it just it detracts as it needs to be heated and as

detracts as it needs to be heated and as such if it's not in direct sunlight it

such if it's not in direct sunlight it pulls from the house

pulls from the house what are your thoughts on that

what are your thoughts on that uh i think that's a bit well there's a

uh i think that's a bit well there's a couple of things there one is the is the

couple of things there one is the is the level of insulation

level of insulation so i mean concrete is great thermal mass

so i mean concrete is great thermal mass but unless it's and so is brick but

but unless it's and so is brick but unless it's insulated the heat's just

unless it's insulated the heat's just going to go straight through it because

going to go straight through it because it's not a good insulator and so

it's not a good insulator and so there is that the other aspect to it is

there is that the other aspect to it is how you're going to live in your house

how you're going to live in your house as well

as well so the the concept behind matters uh and

so the the concept behind matters uh and it's in its liking for thermal mass is

it's in its liking for thermal mass is that the sun comes in and heats the

that the sun comes in and heats the house up but there's someone at home

house up but there's someone at home during the day to experience that so if

during the day to experience that so if you had a house where everyone left the

you had a house where everyone left the house during the day and then came back

house during the day and then came back at night time

at night time and then we're going to was going to

and then we're going to was going to turn the heater or the cooler on to get

turn the heater or the cooler on to get the house down to a comfortable

the house down to a comfortable temperature range you'd be better with a

temperature range you'd be better with a lightweight house in that sense because

lightweight house in that sense because you wouldn't then have to battle for the

you wouldn't then have to battle for the battle the the thermal mass to to change

battle the the thermal mass to to change the automate the temperature make the

the automate the temperature make the temperature comfortable so so thermal

temperature comfortable so so thermal masses is is really there for families

masses is is really there for families that are you know people are going to

that are you know people are going to live it they're going to be in the house

live it they're going to be in the house all the time uh in an in a natter sense

all the time uh in an in a natter sense that's probably that bias is probably a

that's probably that bias is probably a good thing because the people that are

good thing because the people that are going to be in the house all the time

going to be in the house all the time are probably going to be more vulnerable

are probably going to be more vulnerable so elderly people and little children

so elderly people and little children and these sorts of things so it's

and these sorts of things so it's probably a good thing

probably a good thing but it really i mean the the amount of

but it really i mean the the amount of thermal mass depends on

thermal mass depends on uh on and its effectiveness really

uh on and its effectiveness really depends on how much

depends on how much insulation there is in it and the the

insulation there is in it and the the use of the house

well i have myself a mute sorry about that i'm going to roll these two

that i'm going to roll these two questions in together um uh was an

questions in together um uh was an internal air tightness membrane used you

internal air tightness membrane used you said yes um and what was the uh level of

said yes um and what was the uh level of air tightness that was reached um

air tightness that was reached um assuming that you it's below 0.6 because

assuming that you it's below 0.6 because you said it did pass that uh

you said it did pass that uh that number

that number it's only just below 0.6 apparently and

it's only just below 0.6 apparently and so i was talking to our expert air

so i was talking to our expert air tightness tester

tightness tester she's also

she's also our um

our um jessica allen who's also our

jessica allen who's also our expert passive house person so i was

expert passive house person so i was picking her brain about passive house

picking her brain about passive house earlier in the day and she reminded me

earlier in the day and she reminded me that it got just under just under point

that it got just under just under point just under 0.6

just under 0.6 look anything under 0.6

look anything under 0.6 and i'm going to be controversial here i

and i'm going to be controversial here i think you're chasing ego because

think you're chasing ego because anything 0.6 is a really really really

anything 0.6 is a really really really tight building

tight building um

um so there's a couple of other questions

so there's a couple of other questions here which before we wrap it all up um

here which before we wrap it all up um you said going from eight sided ten star

you said going from eight sided ten star was probably not worth the dollars to

was probably not worth the dollars to get there what were the main items that

get there what were the main items that added the extra money to get it to 10

added the extra money to get it to 10 stars

stars increased window specification

um that was all about glazing that's interesting yeah and and and the the in

interesting yeah and and and the the in in glazing but also increasing

in glazing but also increasing insulation so uh if you put up uh four

insulation so uh if you put up uh four in the roof uh and you go to our or what

in the roof uh and you go to our or what are two in the roof and you go to r4 you

are two in the roof and you go to r4 you get a massive increase if you put

get a massive increase if you put r5 in the roof then you only get a small

r5 in the roof then you only get a small increase from our r4 and similarly it

increase from our r4 and similarly it sort of decreases r5 to r6 is less

sort of decreases r5 to r6 is less so just trying to get those last couple

so just trying to get those last couple of megajoules

of megajoules out of the system uh probably doubled

out of the system uh probably doubled the double the insulation and the

the double the insulation and the glazing specification so um it's sort of

glazing specification so um it's sort of law of diminishing returns a bit

law of diminishing returns a bit uh and i'll throw one more question out

uh and i'll throw one more question out there because it's about to get a little

there because it's about to get a little bit noisy uh at my house i might have to

bit noisy uh at my house i might have to wrap it up here in a second

wrap it up here in a second um further to the

um further to the uh thermal mass question um what about

uh thermal mass question um what about in heating climates

in heating climates um

um i think my my understanding is that in

i think my my understanding is that in cooler climates uncoupling the slab

cooler climates uncoupling the slab uh because you've

uh because you've got a

got a sorry that was my 19 month old

sorry that was my 19 month old um you've got a stable temperature

um you've got a stable temperature around 16 degrees in cooler climates but

around 16 degrees in cooler climates but actually gets warmer as you sort of go

actually gets warmer as you sort of go up into warmer climates um

up into warmer climates um how does thermal mass work in those

how does thermal mass work in those hotter climates or heating climates

um it depends on the it depends on oh now i'm at i live in adelaide so i've

now i'm at i live in adelaide so i've done enough work in the northern part of

done enough work in the northern part of the country to understand that they look

the country to understand that they look at things slightly differently up there

at things slightly differently up there and they get really cross when people

and they get really cross when people from the southern states or uh come up

from the southern states or uh come up there and try and tell them what to do

there and try and tell them what to do but the

but the it depends on how how you're going to

it depends on how how you're going to use your house if you're going to live

use your house if you're going to live completely outside

completely outside then you may as well not have any

then you may as well not have any thermal mass in the house

thermal mass in the house if you're going to live inside and cool

if you're going to live inside and cool the house then again your thermal mass

the house then again your thermal mass will work as the heat as a heat battery

will work as the heat as a heat battery just as it does

just as it does just as it does anywhere else um and so

just as it does anywhere else um and so it really depends on on on on that

it really depends on on on on that and so it's very difficult uh for

and so it's very difficult uh for often uh to expect people to embrace

often uh to expect people to embrace their climates when they when they come

their climates when they when they come home and have a very ventilated and open

home and have a very ventilated and open lightweight house

lightweight house when they've spent the rest of their day

when they've spent the rest of their day in their car and in their office in air

in their car and in their office in air conditioning so it's really it's a

conditioning so it's really it's a really difficult uh difficult one one

really difficult uh difficult one one one to do

one to do i think

i think um and i do apologize she just caught me

um and i do apologize she just caught me out there and i realized as i was

out there and i realized as i was talking that i actually had uh that mix

talking that i actually had uh that mix that's switched around uh heating

that's switched around uh heating climate is where you actually need to

climate is where you actually need to use heaters so um in victoria i was

use heaters so um in victoria i was assuming south australia as well

assuming south australia as well um look i'm gonna wrap it up there i'll

um look i'm gonna wrap it up there i'll just have a um

just have a um a little bit of a closing jim thanks so

a little bit of a closing jim thanks so much for joining us today and giving up

much for joining us today and giving up your time to give this really

your time to give this really interesting uh presentation

interesting uh presentation um

um i hope there's more people who are out

i hope there's more people who are out there you know trying to push the

there you know trying to push the boundaries and build better performing

boundaries and build better performing homes it is interesting you say that you

homes it is interesting you say that you know a 10 star might not be the gold

know a 10 star might not be the gold standard sitting around that eight stars

standard sitting around that eight stars the sweet spot uh and interestingly most

the sweet spot uh and interestingly most of the passive houses that we

of the passive houses that we um and i can just speak generally for

um and i can just speak generally for out from our experience

out from our experience the star rating on the passive houses

the star rating on the passive houses that we're building around that seven

that we're building around that seven and a half to eight and a half star

and a half to eight and a half star they don't generally go higher than that

they don't generally go higher than that but they're still amazingly

but they're still amazingly high performing homes

high performing homes um

um i'm going to begin give another massive

i'm going to begin give another massive shout out to

shout out to the founding members of builders declare

the founding members of builders declare given that we have no sponsor tonight um

given that we have no sponsor tonight um that's simon from sustainable homes

that's simon from sustainable homes building jesse from g-luxe jeremy from

building jesse from g-luxe jeremy from positive footprints

positive footprints uh both michael's michael lim and

uh both michael's michael lim and michael murphy from michael murphy built

michael murphy from michael murphy built michael lim builders and aligned

michael lim builders and aligned building

building and brian from ismart building

and brian from ismart building um don't forget we also do a podcast

um don't forget we also do a podcast called the sustainable builders yak

called the sustainable builders yak uh on the latest uh podcast we're joined

uh on the latest uh podcast we're joined by stefan welch from stephen welsh

by stefan welch from stephen welsh architects

architects stefan was really

stefan was really instrumental in helping us get bills to

instrumental in helping us get bills to clear off the ground

clear off the ground and he's a wealth of knowledge um so

and he's a wealth of knowledge um so that's a really great list and i'd

that's a really great list and i'd encourage everyone to jump in and have a

encourage everyone to jump in and have a look at that

look at that um our next webinar um we're going to be

um our next webinar um we're going to be joined by three other members from

joined by three other members from builders declare and we're going to open

builders declare and we're going to open up the questions to all our listeners to

up the questions to all our listeners to ask us

ask us uh any questions um that they might have

uh any questions um that they might have um we will be putting out a poll um to

um we will be putting out a poll um to throw out any questions to us before the

throw out any questions to us before the webinar um so keep a look out for that

webinar um so keep a look out for that um we will be looking for sponsorship

um we will be looking for sponsorship for the next webinar so if there's

for the next webinar so if there's anyone out there interested in

anyone out there interested in sponsoring please get in touch

sponsoring please get in touch email info buildersdeclare.com

email info buildersdeclare.com um please join the facebook page and

um please join the facebook page and also the instagram

also the instagram um jim thank you again for joining us

um jim thank you again for joining us and thanks to everyone for coming along

and thanks to everyone for coming along we look forward to seeing you on the

we look forward to seeing you on the next one

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Webinar What on Earth is a 10 Star Home