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The Battle Against Fraud: How BeFiSc protects Fintechs | Fintech Quotient with Raunak Dembla | YouTubeToText
YouTube Transcript: The Battle Against Fraud: How BeFiSc protects Fintechs
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This content features an interview with Shrid Goyal, founder of Bisk, a company focused on identity verification and fraud prevention. The discussion highlights the challenges and opportunities in the Indian fintech landscape, particularly concerning KYC, data utilization, and the evolving nature of financial fraud.
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zerox it's a fresh opinion and that's
what we are here for so ma as a lender
you always have to be careful it's
always better to do do some ex extra due
diligence to find out is everything okay
or not and then say like everything's
okay it's not a problem most of the
company they wanted to work on the
stealth mod very [Music]
right how do you navigate when your
Regulators or when your industry body is
run by governments who are not for
profit are getting into business and
eating your lunch if you want to start
up or if you have that K in your mind
please do start and you will figure it
out on your way if not you would have
learned something there's nothing fancy there's
there's
nothing Steve Jobs it's just it's just
very raw and truthful and honest to
yourself and what you want to do uh and
having that nature transpire into
everything that you do hey hey hey
thanks for tuning in to fintech quent I
am Rono DEA your guide through India's
vibrant fintech scene from the hustle
and bustle of Mumbai to Tech parks in
bangaluru and swanky offices of Delhi
we'll explore the stories of the
entrepreneurs shaping the future of
fintech whether you're an industry
veteran or new to the fintech world
we've got something for you let's get
started with today's episode of fintech
ction Spotlight series hey everybody
Rona here from fintech Fant today in
another episode of fintech qution
Spotlight we are in conversation with
goyel the founder of Bisk hey
it's lovely to have you on the show
thank you for joining us and having this
conversation with us today ER thank you
so much R thank you so much for having
me on this podcast yeah it's a pleasure
uh to have you here I think you're
you're going to be the first founder
from the infrastructure and the kyc
space to be on the podcast so uh very
excited uh to have this conversation with
with
you and uh we ended up meeting for the
first time at GFF so let's kick start
with that how was GFF for you uh it was
an amazing experience uh that was my
second time but for with beis with my
own brand that was a very first time we
have okay uh laun our company over there
itself we got a lot of visitors I think
we got 1100 visitors which was never
expected uh right in any kind of event
GFF is next level obviously and the
validation that we received about our
company and the product land and all
that it's amazing it's amazing
experience yeah I I I remember uh our
first episode our first uh GFF right in
2022 and it literally opens you up to
the world so you put on the world's
platform and the world opens up to you
so it's it's a fantastic experience so
yeah Kudos and all the best to you uh
for your journey there so uh Shad let's
get started with your journey right so
let let us understand who are you uh who
is shid goel who's the entrepreneur shid
goel what are you doing U what's your
journey been like so far if you could
quickly take us through your journey
that would be great sure Rona so I would
say let me start with my journey from my
education background why I'm saying that
you will realize very soon right okay uh
so in my hometown it's a very small
Hometown I come from malard right I have
been a part my educ the whole education
the schooling has happened in Hindi
medium right so the entire background
was literally very different no one have
ever thought of that someone will come
out from that zone and start an IT
company out there so that is one thing I
wanted to highlight and that is one
thing I wanted to let other people know
in these in all of these small towns
that that is possible Right can actually
start a company and they can be a part
of it company as well right they can
they can run it comp
if even though you are not from bch
background I'm not from bch background
and still I'm rning it yeah yeah so all
of these things are there right uh to
give you a quick understanding I have
spent half a decade in IT services as a
sales and Healthcare us Healthcare right
there is there was nothing that I was
working on ftech sector in India right
uh I work with one of the company called
innovator it's a it's a unicor now uh
it's okay first unicor I worked in the
initial stage with the with this company
and understood how and that gave me a VI
like let's just start something your own
right and that's where you know Ive just
stopped working for other companies and
started my own Consulting form right
okay and that's where the fintech
journey get started right okay okay yeah
that that was a very interesting part
for me because I realized a lot of
things during because fintech was
building at that time in India right
right which year was this uh that
was 2019 uh 2018
right 189 was like people were you know
looking for different kind of product
lines uh you know different kind of in
payment instruments and all that stuff
yeah yeah kyc was a wide space over
there right so I mean the companies
started coming into kyc identity
verification and things started
happening yes yes so that's where I
started doing few Consulting with firms
and all uh I became a part of one of the
company called invo uh that got funded
right as right and uh
somehow I was able to drive almost 80%
of revenue from my end only right that
was amazing journey uh I got into and
somehow they got acquired by Bureau ID
and okay okay still in the same same
space yes I became a director over there
to head the sales over there I ran that
uh specific function for almost a year
right and then I thought let let's just
start by my own right and that's where
the beist came into the
picture over there yeah so amazing story
quick Journey from my education to you
know starting the
B yeah I I think uh there are so many
things that stand out right so one is
probably the the will and the
determination to build or to learn a new
space which is like you said not
familiar to uh to you or not because of
uh not familiar because of the
background or the place that you come
from uh and uh the fact that you've been
able to contribute uh so significantly
to companies uh really understand the
space and then have the conviction to
say that he now it's time for me to do
this on my own uh I think there are a
lot of things that uh we will be able to
learn from uh the kind of things that
you did well which we'll come to a
little later in the podcast but uh yeah
I mean uh would love to would love to
kind of take a deep dive into your uh
company and your product and I
understand that you're building around
kyc uh and fraud prevention so yeah uh
let's introduce bees on the
what exactly are you doing what is the
problem that you're solving uh and what
was the Gap that you identified in the
market that you want to fill with
Bisk correct okay so let me just first
tell you be stands for Beyond Financial
score right uh when we uh got into it
right I realized that there is a huge
gap when it comes to identity
verification so right now to tell you
what we do exactly uh we provide
different kind of apis right that help
most of the lenders or bank to actually
verify the customer on a deeper level
right okay so we are actually creating a
complete holistic profile of the
customer and the merchants in the
business verification to make sure that
whoever you are onboarding you actually
know the customer better it's not just
the identity that you have to verify you
also have to understand the customer
Journey that has been there uh from the
start right so we are giving some kind
of data points which will help them to
understand customer data overall okay
right so it's completely uh API
infrastructure that has been built uh
anyone can just come in take the API
it's plug-in play apis right that can be
used in the market
understood so that was a quick thing
about the apis that has been built but
yeah uh ultimately we are solving one of
the problem we started with identity
verification and then we started solving
the fraud prevention problem that is
there okay we started figuring out the
use cases that is there for every small
product line in the borrowing or the lenders
lenders
Journey okay okay right got it that's
how we started got it so uh shat I think
this is the first point I would like to
double click uh and uh really focus for
a minute or two around so when you say
kyc or when you say F PR fraud
prevention of course you and I
understand uh this but for somebody who
may not understand this uh can you break
it down saying okay what exactly is a
kyc how does it how does it work or what
are the mediums or methods for us to to
do a kyc uh who uses kyc and also a
little bit of uh background on fraud
prevention because everybody's now aware
about oh there are so many scams
happening in the country people are
constantly messaging you on WhatsApp SMS
people are getting calls uh companies
are getting defrauded so if you could
just take a minute or two and deep dive
around these two so that we set the
context for the fut the conversation
that we're going to have yeah yeah
interesting yeah so uh the main part is
most of the people nowadays know the kyc
kyc stands for know your customer right
right RBI has given multiple guidelines
to verify a customer before this digital
era came into the picture uh the kyc or
the know your customer was happening uh
via you know phas to face verifications
right Banks or nbfc was sending some few
agents at your home or your office addes
you have to give your documents or you
have to come to the branch to verify
yourself that you actually exist and you
are the same person wh to whom you are
claiming to be your yes so this is one
of the thing that how the kyc gets
started right uh after 2016 something
like digital kyc came into the picture
and uh in the covid time it actually bed
right okay so in the digital kyc
whatever the identity proof the
individual can have that is pan card and
uh Adar card right that has to be
verified via digital mode right pan
verification can happen from the nsdl
apis and a verification can happen via U
portal or u based apis so that is there
generally the kyc stands for verifying
yourself uh that you are actually the
same person right based on your identity
that you provide process so nutshell
that this is what we call right when the
KC started yeah go ahead Yeah so
basically have a follow-up question so
typically we have a proof of identity
and a proof of address so if you could
just take 10 seconds to explain that as
well yeah proof of identity generally
stands for pan card uh and proof of
address any any document that has the
address but the popular one is the AAR
card that has been taken as a proof of
address nowadays but anything any card
that has the address can be taken as a
proof of address right now we have five
different identities of an individual in
India that is one of them is a pan card
second one is AAR card then there is
driving license voter ID and passport so
these are the popular five identities
that are there but when it comes to
rural areas they may not be having such
identities so the ration card came into
the picture and that can be you know
covered as identity proof of yours got
it got it yeah and uh so then let's talk
about fraud right what exactly is fraud
prevention fraud and what is fraud
prevention right uh so
fraud may not be the same that I'm going
to tell you because fraud can be done
from different ways I mean there are
hundred of ways that the one individual
can actually do the fraud right okay one
fraud can happen just by a theft
identity that is very common just taking
identity and uh you know putting it on
the portal and getting yourself verified
as uh you know claiming that this person
is me right and mostly it started from
to be very precise the photocopy shops
right uh the identity you you you
generally go there you actually copy
paste your identity you take the print
outs and your identity has taken by the
Photoshop guy as well and then they are
using it that's how like almost five six
years back that's how the fraud started
happening that was the initi interesting
okay that's how the people uh get your
identity initially you are just giving
your identity like anything so
basically extra or they started using it
at other places that was very common so
generally popular fraud places that was
Photoshop Photoshop cop
shops and the another one is the SIM
card where wherever you're taking a SIM
card right you have to hand over
placeone my God okay right you will
never get to know how many SIM card has
been issued on your name or how many
things that has happened on your name
yeah yeah it's pretty scary yeah I think
uh the scariest part is actually now
initially uh the digital infrastructure
was not there right so to do the fraud
you have to actually do put more efforts
right because of the digital
infrastructure the fraud also become
very easy you can just sit one room and
do the fraud initially the fraud will be
happening the physically the fraud have
to come out
yeah you have to do multiple other stuff
to make sure the the the fraud have to
take place but now it is very easy like
you just sit in a room you just Tech CV
and understand how the identity work
understand how the platform works and
you get into it in their system see the
loopholes and uh you know do you know
make a leverage of it
interesting yeah interesting that's how
the fraud you know started happening and
now it it is on a very different level
level
yeah I I often say scammers or Jo
frauders here they are the outsourced or
the extended QA arm for a lot of inex
and bfsi players so they are always one
step ahead of you now so you always and
and that is that is the nature of the
game uh criminals will always be one
step ahead of law enforcement so it is
for up to companies like yours and ours
to really be able to outsmart them or to
find ways to say that yeah this is a
known pattern let's not fall for this so
it's it's very interesting yeah yeah
came to our like almost 3 days back like
it's not been so many uh days three days
back we got an identity we have to
verify it we did the verification and
everything was correct the bank
statement was legit uh the identity was
legit the customer was salate he was
having uh you know he worked in I think
22 companies in just five years so that
was a shocking thing how a person can
work in 22 compies in just five years
and salary has been credited all like
people are just the salar are there or
not C score is correct or not identity
is correct or not correct but not beyond
that there is nothing Beyond in terms of
identity thatt can be proven right when
we when we figured it out that there are
22 companies the customer has worked in
and all of them are MNC somehow and okay
all of them has actually submitted the
PF in his account oh how is that even
possible that customer has worked in 22
companies in just five years of tenure
and EF has been submitted like two
months PF and then one month's PF and
all that like he kept
no so that is not just you know summing
up to the things that customer can be
legit right he just built the entire
profile like almost five years and he
must be doing it this fraud with you
know other companies as well right so
that was a very interesting uh you know
fraud that we came uh across got it you
know the the problem is the identity is
correct the bank statement is correct
the Civil is correct everything is
aligned but that's why yeah it's just
epfo portal that would be able to tell
you that there is something wrong
interesting so I mean it's just you have
to link together every bit of
information and yeah like think
differently that is the that is the best
part of the day and age that we live in
today ke are information available here
it's a matter of how do you interpret
this information and uh can that can
save you a lot of uh save you from a lot
of issues yeah yeah yeah yeah awesome so
uh yeah let's uh Deep dive into the
K kyc industry or the fraud prevention
industry so if you could very quickly
run us through what are all the
different ways uh of doing a kyc uh we
briefly spoke about POA POI and I'm sure
a lot of users would have gone through
Journeys right but would love to
understand what exactly is uh the Bisk
product stack like and how are you
helping companies uh so if you could
briefly give us that walk through I have
a follow-up question about digital
public infrastructure that's available
in India and the role that companies
like you can play in this in this
ecosystem minut if you could just give
us that brief then we'll Deep dive into
the next part right now what we are
trying to do is uh I mean as we already
discussed there are multiple identities
that are there what we are trying to do
is we are just adding every identity
that is possible from of a One customer
and figuring out if there is any
any insights that can help us to
understand if this is a fraud or if this
can be a fraud when I say this is a
fraud it's a direct Insight that we can
leverage from the identity proofs or
from the different kind of sources that
are there right uh when I say different
kind of sources it could be epfo portal
it could be GST it could be MCA or any
other governing authorities who actually
save the customer data if the customer
has applied over there right that's
that's one part of it but can be a fraud
is a intentional fraud like I'm a
customer but it's still uh there is
something that has happened and I'm I'm
actually not able to pay back the loan
somehow and okay conventional thing that
is happening some yes so this is
something we have built a product line
as well that is that we call it a
continuous monitoring of an identity
nowadays okay when say continuous
monitoring it has been popular for the
transactions only it has been popular
for the anti- money laundering but not
for identity right so I think this is
something that has to take place in
India uh it's it's very underrated right
now uh if customer is uh taking a loan
as a salaried person and now the
customer is actually registered himself
over the GST portal or you know msme
portal or started doing some kind of a
business right lender will never let get
to know this information right because
they believe still salary and this is
one of the uh indicator that your loan
will get default Maybe not maybe yes it
will get default but there are high
chances that it will get default because
your low own amount that has been given
can be used absolutely H H gut it's it's
probably but that's the thing about what
I've understood in the
market what is the right word there is
this dichotomy if that's the right word
to use ke today people are having side
hustles right uh somebody is doing a 9
to-5 job Monday to Friday they're
working Saturday Sunday they might be
making art and selling it or they could
be doing a lot of things so uh there is
no proper if you actually break down and
go a step further in India it's
unfortunately very difficult to have
specialized product hobby personal loan
um at the same time I'm an employee or
whatever right so for example for me to
run this podcast u i I don't have
sponsors right so if I were to put in
money and then take a loan and all of
that uh and I somehow do an udum on this
it could highlight but yeah so I think
what what it kind of highlights in my
mind is that uh as a lender you always
have to be careful it's always better to
do do some ex extra due diligence to
find out K is everything okay or not and
then say like everything's okay it's not
a problem but having that flag coming
having that system giving you an alert
saying that hey
is is going to help you probably prevent
and reduce the incidence of something
going wrong yes that is that is that's
what we are trying to solve so
continuous monitoring should be popular
in identity space as well not just for
anti-money laundering and and yes
transaction monitoring very interesting
right so I I'm not against that you
should not do do the side hles but I
just wanted to make sure the if the
person has taken a loan on salary right
so they should have taken a loan on that
they are doing something in businesses
and bus instead of the Sal money the
lender's money right uh it's not your
money right ultimately you have to pay
back that amount yes but forgetting that
part is a big problem yeah yeah yeah
yeah we I completely I think this is
more of a the way I look at it right
this is my personal opinion uh it's a
macro problem because we don't
categorize it properly uh for example I
took a car loan a year ago I get so many
calls saying yeah top of loon L low top
of L loan Leo what I what will I do car
loan already is running I I don't need
extra money to pay for the car huh so
why will I take a topup loan and if I do
what will I use it for I'm not going to
pay off topup loan pay of the primary
car loan and then what that's not making
sense uh so I'll use it for working
capital for me
me
renovation right so uh it's very
difficult to actually track down the
exact use case for which a person is
taking a loan but I think that is part
of the problem that you and I can solve
I think there is one more thing Ron I
wanted to highlight in this entire
conversation is people are talking about
supply and demand Demand right the
borrowers are there right uh sorry
demand is there like borrowers are there
and then there are multiple companies
who are providing of loans right yes
yeah ultimately who's thinking that the
customer is able to pay back so payback
is another terminology that is missing
in the supply demand in The Lending
industry so paying back capacity right
paying back capacity has been uh you
know completely trusted on civil
completely trusted absolutely I agree
good enough yes so that is something I
think also come the picture and
absolutely has to something to solve
this the the other problem that I see in
that side is reporting or at least now
things are changing but up to a couple
of months or a year ago a lot of lines
were not being reported in the right way
line activate even for two two and a
half years the Line Used to Be Active uh
so I think there's a this is my uh
opinion tell me whether you agree or not
I think there is a very severe cleanup
of the entire C data or not just Cil
entire credit report data in the
industry today we have only four players
in India right so you need to really
clean up and probably the four of them
need to sit together and merge the data
Q There are instances where you'll find
a credit report of an individual on one
Bureau but you will not find it on the
other and a lot of lenders have built
their entire rule engines on one Bureau
so their entire scoring is very
different so while you can see that
there is a loan and there's a default on
one Bureau because this lender is not
considered in that Bureau they are blind
to this default and they are falling
into this trap so I think it is the
responsibility of the bureaus to really
Merch this data because do
this or somebody or somebody who who can
create a layer above the bureaus needs
to do this and really flag that you
recently talking about right the
framework that is coming in India like
account aggregator framework the UL
unified lending interface right so I
think they should come into the picture
properly for the Civil scores as well we
call C now Cil has become so big that we
call it civil score though it is a
credit score because C exactly cibil has
synonymous yeah financial services
zerox and zerox we call it Xerox but
Xerox was not a photocopy initially
zerox was a company who actually lost
the photocopy exactly so but yeah I
think it's it's interesting that uh this
has happened uh but yeah now now that
we've come into this side of the
conversation not sure what so yeah
running a kyc company is hard
competitors it is such a commoditized
market and on top of that you have
digital public infrastructure that is
available so as a lender or as a fintech
there is probably a digil locker that is
available to you uh if you're regulated
you have access to cersi ckyc if you're
in the wealth space you have access to k
um so there are so many you can be a sub
Kua if you're a PPI license or uh if you
have the license uh so if you're
regulated there are so many options now
npci has just launched ekyc setu and
everybody's talking about it you
mentioned about Uli you mentioned about
account aggregator so in a market where
u i I don't know if the the right term
is the government but in the market
where there is so much public digital
infrastructure that is available for regulated
regulated
entities how does a company like Bisk
navigate this industry and how do you
look at these products
and how as a as a strategy right for any
aspiring entrepreneur or a fintech
entrepreneur listening to this how do
you navigate when your Regulators or
when your industry body is run by
governments who are not for profit are
getting into business and eating your
lunch out how how do you go about this
yeah so the infrastructures that are
there if it is account aggregator ckyc
Uli which is coming in right now yeah uh
most of them are not that customer friendly
friendly
or you can say the or regulated friendly
when I say that what I mean by that is
to consume that data that has been
provided by such entities is difficult
okay that is why the term that is very
popular in uh nowadays in India that is
tsp technical service provider that's
right ultimately even though the
framework is there even though the data
provided by the government to Rees but
still they are not able to consume it
that means a lag there is a gap that has
to be fulfilled and that's where our
kind of player come into the picture and
we help them to consume the data in a
proper way right right uh if you will go
to the account aggregator and uh you
know you you can it's very difficult to
combine all the 15 license holder
account account aggregator at one place
correct pull the bank statement of the
customer right that is right agreed for
for a lender so our kind of uh uh tsp is
actually coming into the picture and
making sure this is happening properly
right and this is also buiness for us so
obviously there's we are good in deck so
we help them to make sure that you do
your best because you're good in lending
government is doing their best keeping
the data at one place we are good making
sure these two actually are aligned
right makes sense making a bridge
between them yes so that's that's how
the briefest kind of compan is actually
coming into the picture and we are also
figuring out many use cases which maybe
the government had never thought about
right the use cases that has to be
solved for the lenders but just
providing the data is not solving the
actual problem actually creating the
Insight above it actually creating the
above it is actually will solve the
problem right right right so Mak sense
uh I can highlight one specific use case
in this industry take example of account
aggregator okay okay uh they are popular
initially they have started with a bank
account statement uh that you can take
via by giving an OTP right whatever the
bank that is linked to one mobile number
right yeah now the the problem is you
customer is giving you consent to take
that bank statement for next six months
or one year and you can continue
continuously pull that bank statement
yes yes but nowadays they are just take
the lenders are taking the bank
statement and using it one time not
doing the continuous monitoring on their
bank statement right if there is
anything that is happening on the bank
statement the salary is not coming or
some other kind of spends that started
happening maybe the customer has taken
along and it started spending on gaming
companies right on PO
right right yeah yeah so those small
elements are very important for lenders
to understand how the customer behavior
is right it will not be dependent on the
statement that is a past statement but
now what is happening that is important
once you have given a loan once you have dispersed
dispersed
it right that is still not solved right
they are not pulling it yeah they don't
know how how the workflow would work
okay yeah so that that's there I mean
these are the problems that are there in
the infrastructures that has been done
makes sense yeah it makesense sense
makes sense I have in fact yeah so there
are so many things that in India need to
be streamlined for this to work
effectively for example the other day I
was at a shop and many I bought some
things and I tried to pay using UPI and
Q code with the name of the shop when I
scanned it I got an error saying limit
like his he could not receive any more
up payments he gave me a pet shopa uh QR
code I don't know whether it's his own
other shop or what but the code he pulled
outm I'm buying something else this guy
is giving me a pet shop I don't have a
pet like what the hell is happening but
monitor like so I mean this this is a
very benign example of uh uh what What's
happening in the industry but there
needs to be so many things that are
streamlined so that we can be more
effective in the work that we do because
you know if this if these kind of things
happen um it becomes very difficult for
for any good analytics to come out of it
but uh the the idea of monitoring this
uh on a granular transaction level is
very interesting and I assume that you
do it and you give out a flag if you
find any uh bad patterns or if you find
any red flags correct correct correct
makes sense sir as you have highlighted
the U thing I can again add one more use
case I have recently for for one of the
article as well that is UPI right you
can create a UPI from your mobile number
and that is very easy to crack what UPI
right now very easy right so if I will
start sending you autopay request how
would you stop me there is no way
because there is just a single line code
that I can write on any of the payment
app to send out on multiple contact
numbers for an auto correct correct
correct huh if anyone of them by mistake
they're not aware and they just approves
it and just put their you know pin code
I would be able to get the money in
single makes sense yeah and data is very
cheap in India right you can just go on
Google and just just download the entire
contact numbers out there figure out the
up IDs write a single line code and just
send it to hundreds of people I don't
know if I have just told something which
is happening in India
but that's how the fraud is happening
it's it's very easy to do one room
absolutely data
available if I'm just sending it to
suppose 10 million peop in one go right
right
approve yeah yeah we like I completely
agree which is why uh the more the more
we have I've gotten deep into kyc I
realized that are my mobile number that
I'm going to use for my bank banking for
my transactions has to be different from
the number that I use for everything
else Communications you go huh like for
example you go to a restaurant and
there's waiting and you give your mobile
number there who knows what's happening
with that data uh you go to any Tech
park today you can't enter without
giving an OTP uh for a meeting right who
knows how the data is being utilized
whether willfully or you know without
their consent uh data leaks are
happening uid itself was attacked uh so
you know how secure is anybody else so I
think this financial one of the reason
that U come under the npci now and they
have launched the yeah ekyc suu which is
again for the same product that they
have launched before that is
exactly call same go they have put it in
NPC yeah yeah but I think yeah uh the
the way I have looked at it uh Financial
Security is as much our responsibility
as it is of the company or the
government or any other stakeholder
because at the end of the day if people
are not educated and RBI and ay and
everybody is trying their level best to
educate the the audience but yeah we we
everybody needs to get educated and I
think that is that is going to be the
central point for us uh to focus on to
said because uh UPI people start using
at the age of what like five or six or
seven like yeah you
like you know the 10 year old boy can
have a right be going on multiple places
and you know paying it from UB and they
not awaring not having that awareness
how you know how the fraud can happen
with yeah yeah or maybe the agid L right
agid people out there right they may be
feeling the same right they are not
aware about the Technologies they using
the because everywhere there is a UPI
right yes so like giving this
information correctly is important like
how how use it yeah yeah so yeah this uh
this is good I think uh you know
probably we'll change gares now so we've
had like very detailed conversations but
AB say I want to kind of have like a
sort of a rapid fire round with you so
uh tell me like in in your journey so
far uh when did you start uh how old is
your company today uh what give me some
uh metrics or whatever you're
comfortable to share about uh just to
summarize your journey so far yeah I'm
I'm happy to tell about the numbers
normally in public as well reason being
is so other people should come up and
start some and that is one thing I have
others right because I know a lot of uh
uh you know people out there in the
product management and all that and they
have a very deep knowledge they can
build something good in this market but
they are not just coming out they are in
their comfort zone have that deep
knowledge about the product line they
have that deep knowledge about the
scoring systems they know that the
company vision is not aligned with them
but it's still they are working over
there in can I just can I just tell you
uh just just to interrupt you here for a
minute yeah kabi kabina I'm sure you
knowledge before you started up your
knowledge would have increased multifold
after you started up sometimes you learn
on the way you learn on the journey so
and everybody has imposter syndrome yeah
I feel there are 100 people better than
me doing this uh everybody feels that
they are not the best but uh yeah uh
it's just a just to kind of add on to
what you said my learning of whatever
number of years I've been doing this has
been K are if you want to start up or if
you have that K in your mind please do
start and you will figure it out on your
way if not you would have learned
something HCT that's how it is that's
that's what we call it entrepreneurship
right yes yeah yeah huh so to tell you
about the journey right uh we started
one and a half year back we got
registered in 2022 December we launched
on 5th March 2023 it's been one and a
half year yesterday actually we have
closed one and a half yeah yeah yeah
yeah yeah congratulations yeah and
I I got blessed uh with a baby boy on
5th of March only when we launched it so
my baby is nice yeah nice nice double
Daka congratulations so you had two
babies on that's what my wife say you
have ah seriously nice so like in one
and a half year of Journey first thing
that we did is we are able to manage our
business bootstrap right wow completely
fantastic profit and uh like yeah we are
doing things in a right way right
amazing okay so we we are not uh we are
actually pushing for hyper growth that
is there okay but with our limits like
we comfor right we are making sure the
employees should not suffer we should
not suffer our business finances should
not suffer we have maintained that balance
balance
sure right so it's one and a half year
uh right now uh we have 78 clients wow
for within one and a half year nice and
most completely bootstrapped that's
amazing it's completely bootstrapped yes
okay we are in this year we are on a
track of closing $2 and a half million
dollars right that is there okay still
when I started this business a lot of
people told me like it's already a
saturated Market yes there are 4050 odd
players that are already working there
are five six big players uh you know all
of things are there but still I thought
there is still a gap right India is a
marke like every street have a marketing
service or
recruitment fraud detection when there
are 40 companies are telling us it is
saturated how come it's not yeah yeah
yeah is not it's still there is a gap
you can do the Innovation you do the
things in a better way and you will
actually uh you know find your way I
agree yeah yeah although although it's a
very audacious thing I agree with I
agree with what you're saying uh just to
just to very quickly follow up uh have
you thought about what is the total
addressable market for kyc and fraud
prevention risk uh all of that in India
I can tell you in numbers exactly uh
when I started this business before that
I did some research before actually
started so at that time I did the
research of for two years and I was able
to get the data beyond that so in last
two years uh that is 5,000 CR Market
that is there in India only B yes
yes
okay already earn vendors and it's not
4050 vendors there are multiple other
LMS L companies who are providing the so
can you just tell me what are you
including in this uh number that you
just shent it's all it's all uh fintech
enabl I'm just just taking comp who are
providing any kind of kyc KYB identity
verification company nothing else so
this includes someone like of inbox as
well yes okay take because ultimately uh
SDK do whatever the servic they are they
are an enabler for access to players but
40% so keeping their revenue half
right it's around
research then we realize it's 35% year
on year so last two last year whatever
the amount was that increased to 35% see
right so it's growing Market or 2020 say
grow start with right right so
35% growing Market with a good margin of
product line that you can provide in the
market right okay so why not got it
let's just get into it and figure out
the things right makes sense when we
started figuring out the clients right
system we figured out how many
prospective clients that we can have how
many nbfcs are there banks are there
okay fex are there or insurance
companies or all that stuff right he
found very interesting thing that is uh
we are telling them that kyc has been
stabilized but they are just doing pan
or Adar verification not beyond that so
how come the kyc has been stabilized
K because is there yes
right nbfc how many percentage of nbfc
actually implemented the entire very
very
100% so huge opportunity to build the
insights and all those data right agreed
agreed I still feel that will go
like next two to three years it will
cross easily uh you know 12 to 15 15,000
here Market
nice nice yeah makes sense here makes
sense uh but what I realized is it's a
heavily commodi as Market yeah to margin
pressure is there every day um so is
there interesting thing R before you
move forward with this statement I would
like to highlight there are 40 to 50 odd
players and how many of them are built
it in house that is the question are
they distributors or are the suppliers
who are you comp absolutely yes so every
email provide like
take an example of
anything so if I include myself right I
don't take those people into my
competition even who are Distributing
maret in who
have right and when we started doing
realized 50 60 players that exist
correct correct competition absolutely
side they will be on a very high side
but they are not my competition so I
have to keep in keep my mind clear that
you're not actually competiting with the
50 or 60 odd players you competing with
four or five sure right so you have that
Focus yeah we have that clear focus on that
that
sure makes sense but yeah so I think because
because
ultimately because of the number of
players that are in the market it's so
easy for a customer to
say do you want to come in you not want
to come in then you're
like what is this you're never happy
with the deal right nobody is ever happy
with the deal inovations as
obiously will do it correct correct
correct that is that is a
Poss you also started in this journey
where it's a down market so everybody is
trying to get their unit economics into
uh fit into their uh forecast and
predictions and make sense for their
business uh but yeah uh yeah you you
saying something so like obviously I was
just telling you like everyone actually
uh wanted things on a cheaper rate yeah
everything want sure that things are
actually aligned yes that is there
that's what I'm saying like so it's okay
I mean customer are correct
like let's do that why not yeah AP
H AB you have to figure out the right
pend for that that's okay absolutely
that's not the problem the problem is if
the players are not innovating so
whoever the player are innovating in
their existing apis okay how many player
have introduced any new data point in
the same API and tell the lender by same
rate same API use dat which will help
you to understand better makes sense makes
makes
sense telling you that this customer
that you are verifying a pan is a
taxpayer or
not with the same which will help you
help your Landing Journey better makes
them
makes sense customer will stay with you
on that will not come to you
and cheaper rate there we will change it
because they know after one month value
value addition over yeah because now
company started thinking about customer makes
makes
sense yeah I think uh really got I I'm
able to now get an insight into uh how
you're thinking uh about kyc and how
you're thinking about these problems so uh
uh
if I were to ask you ke in this
whole journey that you've had building
Bisk what is the most interesting
Insight that you were able to discover
uh which of course you can share on a
public forum uh of what is a what is
something which is very Innovative or
what's a gap you can fill or what's that
one inside that was like
man I I have not able to solve that
problem yet but there's a big problem
that is there every everyone is trying
to figure out a fraud huh and that is
very like 0.1% of the total uh default
so the other default ratio that I was
initially talking about right customer
is taking risk and maximum default is
happening because of that okay what part
has not been covered that part is
specific right got it default ratio is a
very big thing default ratio two parts
divide where the customer is completely
vanished and identity is wrong and all
that and there is a huge part where the
customer actually defaulted because of
platforms I think they can do better on
that H okay and I think kyc s say be
there is a continuous individual
monitoring that has to be stabilized
from government yes I mean I'm very
bullish about that specific part why
because this will actually solve a huge
problem my percentage
generally default ratio 4 to
default fraud or intentional like the
customer defaulted the genuine customer
right both both type of people are there
so why we are focused only on fraud why
we are not focused on the other part of
it yeah
down yeah right everyone know the just
Man story right that happened so like
even Dan right
that yeah there are multiple cases that
we have nowadays where we can do the
case study and understand what are the
best solutions that can be given
okay makes sense makes sense so uh yeah
you've been doing this for a year
and we uh three questions uh what is the
mistakes that you made that youve
learned from what are the things that
have work well because obviously are
you're profitable you're at like a very
decent and respectable Revenue uh run
rate uh so obviously there would have
been things that have gone right and
wrong so if you can just take a minute
or two and just walk our audience
through these two points uh that would
probably be a good segue into the next
segment yeah
so uh what we did wrong that's that's
the easy answer actually we we did
multiple things which were wrong
actually every that whoever
starting they will be do multiple
mistakes I think everybody makes
mistakes there's nobody who's not making
mistakes mistake is not being
Shameless right okay now we are
Shameless Shameless when I say that uh
most of the people actually have good
connections right okay people think that
they don't have connection but they have right
LED you have connection but you don't
use those connections you I agree being
Shameless and going out and asking
people for
help right oh yeah yeah big thing yes go
out you have to be you know strong
enough to hear no that's okay yes right
but you should go out
there and talk to people and solve your
problem abolutely
out stabiliz business why not taking
funds from there give them the payback now
now
it right
100% internally correct correct correct
correct correct not being Shameless as a
yes 100% agree is p in fact this is
something that I have spoken about
myself on couple of podcasts where I've
been uh on as a guest and this is
something that I have implemented across
um you know uh when when you're young
when you're growing uh when you're
ambitious talk to everybody here in fact
some some people they spoke to me whole
conversation 45 minutes they like normal
let's let's figure out a way forward at
the end I'm like 5x so how can you help
me can you connect me to your friends
can you connect me to your colleagues
can you like how can you help me right
how can you help me to grow and that
itself give them an look into who am I
as a person right and they're like yeah
let's work with this guy because he's
ambitious whereas you talk to some other
guy who is like oh
fantastic many years in the
market working with them so I 100%
wholeheartedly agree with that uh yeah
second point we did wrong we have
corrected that that is not speaking
about your product okay so most of the
right let's just if you're building
something maybe you will get the
validation very early right and maybe
you will improve your product instead of
just putting one and a half year or two
years in the stealth mode and then realizing
realizing
valid right talk about it people think
IDE ideas are cheap in India execution
is idea is 100% yes execution you're
right you're right ex if I'm giving you
an idea the other founder would not be
able to execute it their thought process
will be different it's all about it's
all about your your thought process
you're upbringing the way you bring the
vision from there yes yes yes you can't
match that so I think talking about the
important of that correct that's again
it's it's very individual thinking
that's my thinking no I I yeah actually
this is something very interesting uh
thanks thanks for bringing this point
out uh nobody has brought this point
forward uh on the whatever episodes
we've done up till now uh but yeah it's
a fresh opinion and that's what we are
here for so
yeah so stealth m i mean these are the
two mistakes we have started speaking
great not as in marketing marketing we
are just putting the truth out there
like if I'm going across one of the
emotion or incident today I'll just put
it on LinkedIn tomorrow okay exactly
ra kind of right instead of just
manipulating it with words and all
we just trying to make sure exact
emotion good good good what about things
that have worked well for you or what
what is the one thing that you did which
worked really well I think you already
kind of covered it in your mistake
itself but is there anything else uh
which you would like to
share uh that worked for us H like
anything that like
like
co-founder so when you starting a
business right you have to think
is a because you get a Vibe together
doesn't mean you will get a Vibe when
you're doing business makes sense so a
lot of business actually broke when they
have the clashes so it's very important
you have your boundaries set and right
correct correct you should find the
right partner or the co-founder for that
yeah makes sense it's almost F doing an
arranged marriage so making sure
yes ignore right makes sense right yeah
awesome awesome so shabat um my next
question is what inspires you or
motivates you to get out of bed every
day or get to office and do what you're
doing what is that one factor that is
really driving
you so I never had that ambition to
start a company to be very precise I was
a I I came from a working uh culture
family and all that although my father
is actually into the business uh small
part and all that Hardware business but
uh the entire structure that is there
the entire environment that I you know
uh grew up so that was all job
thing or you know you have to get a good
score academically I was bad right right
40 50% don't don't feel bad you will do good
good
agre yes from a small town with the
average percentage that's okay uh you
will be competiting with I
or Howard that is completely okay you
that you just keep doing the things
that's that's one part that I wanted to highlight
highlight
nice to you have you
to basically correct correct correct
correct makes sense keep doing it things
automatically I agree I agree you will
get right
taking that is also okay because
ultimately you started your own company
right you you have had something in your
mind start it's okay yeah yeah so take
your heart that is okay doing things is
fine very it's so fresh and interesting
to see somebody being raw and being like
yeah such
there's nothing fancy there's
nothing Steve it's just it's just very
raw and truthful and honest to yourself
and what you want to do uh and having
that nature transpire into everything
that you do I think that's my
understanding of U correct you from this
conversation that we had whatever you're
doing I mean do the best thing that is
possible and learn other functions as
well around you so the problem is
suppose if I say I will be doing sales
only then that if you will not
understand the product better right how
the product is getting built then you
will miss out on lot more things
ultimately Jo who are very good sales
people may I mean that is again my
thinking may not be able to found a tech
product right because they getting into
the product that deeply sales Focus so I
think when you are selling something you
actually try to solve the problem and
get into the
not you don't need to go to people and
ask for the things makes sense makes
sense fantastic uh this brings me to the
last question uh and uh we have to talk
about this uh so it's a very quick
question that we'll do and we'll wrap up
U have you used any AI tools that have
improved your product activity that
you're implementing in your text tack
anywhere or also I want to understand
what is your Tex tack like because we
talking about fintech and we spoke a lot
about the
fin so if you can just take a minute and
share anything that you've discovered or
any new stack that you're using which
you're very excited about uh that we
that we can just end on that note right
uh so Bots is something that we are
trying to build that is a Bots uh when I
say AI Bots it's not something that can
be built directly but which we are
trying to build something around
insights so when we say identity right
there are multiple insights that can be
driven from one of the data point or
five of the data point based on the
specific product right
okay initially there were python uh code
that has to be written and all that
nowadays it is getting very easy because
AI came into the picture yes uh so we
are trying to actually create Bots when
I say B it's not chat bot it will
directly go into the code it will
understand the lenders product right
insights and then that bot will help you
to understand data point Miss which will help
help
you understand financials of user better
okay right so what I'm trying to say is
we are trying to combine three four
things together there are bank
statements there are credit reports that
are there up credit card transaction
history C report but there is no product
that can combine all these three
together and build the insight I get it
yeah right so you will start building it
via python code or any other technology
that will be very difficult because
ultimately that keeps
changing systematic function which can
align all these things right so like we
are building AI Bots to make sure these
three or four different statements can
be aligned together right match the uh
you know how the transactions are
happening if it is aligned or not if
there is some that can be Det so we are
it but you would be able to do multiple things
things but understood understood so would you
but understood understood so would you be able to share the name of a model or
be able to share the name of a model or something that you're using so that
something that you're using so that people can read up about it uh there is
people can read up about it uh there is no specific model that has been okay oh
no specific model that has been okay oh you're building your own yeah yeah we
you're building your own yeah yeah we are creating our own for that right we
are creating our own for that right we are not taking
because that doesn't properly exist exactly so you need to build it from
exactly so you need to build it from scratch working on
the but data level insights generate from three different reports is
generate from three different reports is very difficult I know Google have tried
very difficult I know Google have tried it recently lach Google for that I have
it recently lach Google for that I have start using it
start using it but right I if I'm putting my three
but right I if I'm putting my three different balance sheet out there they
different balance sheet out there they not able to pull the right numbers for
not able to pull the right numbers for me they're not matching all these three
me they're not matching all these three things together but
things together but single I mean to say single report man
single I mean to say single report man right you want to get the insights they
right you want to get the insights they can do that makes sense but combining
can do that makes sense but combining three together is
three together is difficult makes sense makes sense this
difficult makes sense makes sense this is
is when one of the most like I said breath
when one of the most like I said breath of fresh a
of fresh a conversations that I've had in a long
conversations that I've had in a long time and it's fantastic to see a new
time and it's fantastic to see a new approach or a new idea being um built
approach or a new idea being um built and evolved uh with what you're doing um
and evolved uh with what you're doing um yeah I I wish you all the very best for
yeah I I wish you all the very best for the kind of innovation that you're
the kind of innovation that you're trying to bring into the market the new
trying to bring into the market the new thinking and the new thought process
thinking and the new thought process that you're trying to bring out um and
that you're trying to bring out um and uh yeah I mean uh fantastic to see some
uh yeah I mean uh fantastic to see some some new innovation happening in the
some new innovation happening in the space where now in is becoming very
space where now in is becoming very difficult and very less so yeah thanks
difficult and very less so yeah thanks for being uh on the podcast thanks for
for being uh on the podcast thanks for sharing your thoughts and it's been an
sharing your thoughts and it's been an absolute pleasure having you and having
absolute pleasure having you and having this discussion with you are um yeah
this discussion with you are um yeah thank you so much and yeah all the best
thank you so much and yeah all the best to you and your team thank you thank
to you and your team thank you thank youon thank you and that's a wrap for
youon thank you and that's a wrap for this episode of fintech ctions Spotlight
this episode of fintech ctions Spotlight do share your feedback thoughts ideas
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