This conversation explores the profound connection between scientific curiosity, personal origins, and the human drive to understand the universe, highlighting the journey of scientific discovery and its impact on our perception of reality and our place within it.
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First of all, thank you so much for
being here. You know, I uh I've been
following your work for many many years
and uh I've immensely
enjoyed your books and you know I
listened to many of your podcasts and u
uh interviews that you've given. So just
you know just a huge pleasure for me to
to be speaking with you here today.
Well, you're very welcome. It's a it's a
real pleasure to talk to you.
Yeah. And uh you know I
I come from Ukraine and u as you know um
like when I was reaching out to you via
email and you know I was u uh sharing my
thoughts about the situation in my home
country you know and uh uh like I
remember and and then I u I noticed also
uh that like your middle name is Victor
right so so it goes it goes like uh full
name Harry Victor for a cliff and uh you
know I was I was curious like you know
if you could uh tell us a little bit
about the origins of that if was was it
like the name of your grandfather
because you also mentioned you know in
your email that your grandfather was
from leave some
Yeah that's right yes so Victor Yeah
it's my it's my grandfather on my
mother's side's name so he was Victor
but he was Polish so it would would have
been spelled with a w so like w i k t o
r but when they when I was born my
parents anglicized it to Victor. But
yeah, he was from Leviv or Lvu as it was
in the in the cuz he was born he was
born in the 1890s. So he very long time
ago uh at a time when Poland didn't
exist because it was partitioned between
uh the Austrohungarian Empire, Prussia
and Russia. Um so he yeah he had a very
like long and complicated life but he
was in the army the Polish army in the
second world war and then he end when
Poland was invaded he ended up escaping
and eventually making his way to
Britain. So that was sort of so yeah I
mean Lu is Liv is somewhere I've always
like been my mom particularly and I have
both been quite keen to visit and uh
well maybe not right now but I hope in
the future we actually get to go and see
cuz his I never met him. He died in
1969, long before I was born. But um but
he used to talk to my mom a lot about
Leiv and and what a beautiful city it
was. And he used to say that uh when he
felt when he slept at night in his
dreams, he walked through the streets
and obviously sort of felt very homesick
for this place that he couldn't return
to. Um so yeah, I hope in better times
we'll be able to come visit you in
Ukraine and and see the city.
Yeah, just amazing to me. And you know,
my dad's name is also Victor, so
Okay. Okay.
Yeah. Yeah. And just amazing that you
have this connection with my country
like and know you know historically like
even though you're now you know
thousands of like miles away from so
from Ukraine. Uh and uh I'm also like
feeling a little bit jealous, you know,
speaking to you because uh uh well, how
can say it? Well, let me back up a
little bit. you know u I love learning
about like science's history you know
like going all the way back to like
Newton Galo uh this like fathers
obviously of modern science modern
physics and uh uh like uh the country
that you live in England it's just uh
it's got so much uh you know history in
it you know especially when it comes to
like science history and obviously the
University of Cambridge right where
you're based at and where you work also
So like you know so many brilliant like
like uh scientists north of history have
been like professors and you know
students there uh you know folks like
you know Newton Hawin like Nore and I
guess also studied at Cambridge if if
I'm not mistaken. So uh just uh you know
uh I'm just curious like do you feel
that sense of you know um like
tremendous you know scientific legacy
when you for example walk into a room at
at Cambridge University or like I guess
not now it's it's more like you know
it's become a good thing rightly just
you know go to work and you know do do
your job but maybe you know one of the
first times when that you you know that
you went there
uh you remember you know what maybe you
could share about what that was like you
know that kind of experience uh you know
yeah I mean you you're definitely aware
of it I mean in fact part of my job at
the Cavendish laboratory which is the
physics department at Cambridge is I I
look after this uh historic collection
of scientific instruments so we have
this museum in the building that goes
back to the founding of the lab in the
1870s and it has the tube that
discovered the electron and part of the
particle accelerator that split the atom
and all these other amazing things. So
there is definitely the sense of history
but I think one thing to say about Cambridge
Cambridge
you know it's not as if all these
scientists came from Cambridge but a lot
of them came from other places um you
know so uh Rutherford for example who
did so much work on the structure of the
atom and the nucleus he was from the
other side of the world he's from New
Zealand um and and I thinking actually
when I was writing my first book so
there is a there's a very important
figure from Ukraine in that which is
George Gamov who you may be aware of
who's one of the fathers of the big bang
theory who was from Adessa originally.
Um so you know in the in the era of the
Soviet Union so you know yeah but I mean
there is a sense of history. I think in
Cambridge though you we're we're back
actually we're just moving into this new
laboratory which has just been finished.
So it's not like we're sitting in this
kind of like a neo gothic museum. It
doesn't really feel like you know you're
you're sort of too rooted in the history
and like the research that we do has
moved on a long way from you know 100
years ago. But nonetheless, yeah, it is
exciting to think, you know, you can
walk through the same corridors as
people like as like Rutherford and
Maxwell and even Newton going back even
further. For sure.
And you know, I'm always interested in
like people's origins, you know, have
someone uh like that ended up where they
are today. And uh would you say that
like would you trace your you know
obvious love and you know fascination
with science and physics in particular
back to your childhood maybe you know
maybe you had a particular you know
experience in your childhood where you
weren't like oh my god you know I want
to study the universe and
or or maybe you know or maybe if you
could remember someone who's had like
you know a big singular impact on you
know what you ended up doing in life
maybe some teacher or one of your parents.
parents.
Yeah, I mean I think it probably comes
from my parents to large extent. They
were both they both did a science
subject university. So my my mom did
chemistry uh at Edinburgh and my dad was
also at Cambridge back in the 70s and he
he started off thinking he would do
physics but then he made friends with
loads of English students like as in
English language students and he ended
up doing history and philosophy of
science instead. So he kind of like put
physics he sort of said was too hard and
he he didn't physicist didn't have any
fun. So he thought he'd try and do
something a bit more like arty
basically. But yeah they both had
scientific backgrounds and I think when
when I was a kid they encouraged me and
you know were ready to ask or answer all
my sort of silly questions that I would
would ask them regularly. So I think I
had a I was always very interested in
science and physics and chemistry and
astronomy. And I think even at primary
school I was one of those really
annoying kids. I remember that we had
this lesson when we were about 10 years
old where a teacher was explaining about
light and how light travels in straight
lines and he got us all to draw a
straight line with an arrow on it and I
put remember I put my hand up and I was
it must have been an insufferable little
swat and said oh actually sir uh
sometimes light bends you know when it
goes past like the sun or like really
massive bodies cuz my dad had taught me
a little bit about Einstein's theory of
general relativity this idea that space
is bent and light doesn't always travel
in straight lines and the teachers were
just shut up Harry you're just confusing
the others don't we don't want to hear
about that so I think yeah I was always
interested I I there isn't a single in
like moment that inspired me as such but
I think it was throughout my education
um there were a couple of teachers that
stood out we had I had one physics
teacher called Mr. Haythornne uh who was
really great when I was at secondary
school. Um but actually a a lot of
physics teaching I don't know if this is
true in your experience or in the
listeners experience but a lot of
physics teaching is quite bad often like
I there's there's but there were a few
occasional figures who inspired you but
you had to kind of soldier through quite
a lot of like pretty boring or badly
delivered lessons. But the thing that
appealed to me about physics was that it
kind of revealed this secret truth about
nature that actually, you know, the
world isn't really how it seems. That
when you go down deep, all the things
that we're familiar with, they don't
really exist and they all emerge from
these much more fundamental uh more mysterious
mysterious
basic ingredients. And and and that and
the fact that you can make sense of the
world through this very small number of
simple ingredients was really really
appealing. and and that's why I fell in
love with the subject. And it was really
a process just going through my
education. Then when you get to
university, you discover physics is a
whole new subject which is much much
more mathematical and it's much more
about problem solving and and reasoning
in a way where at school maybe it's a
little bit more about learning facts and
doing certain experiments and that
becomes very very satisfying. So yeah, I
think it it's a sort of mixture of all
these different influences, teachers,
but just the sort of subject itself and
and reading popular science books and
watching documentaries. They were a big
part of what inspired me when I was
younger as well. they played a big role
and you know for me it was in my own
experience it was
reading a lot about uh again great
scientists like Einstein and and Hawin
and obviously I got really moved and
inspired like like many did you know by
Hawkins life story and you know I
remember also like being so upset when I
found out that he died and like you know
it was like because no he's he's been
just a huge source of inspiration, you
know, not just for me, but like
to to millions of of people. And uh I'm
also like wondering if you um have you
had like the chance to to interact with
him personally at all, you know, to to
meet him maybe while in Cambridge or No,
I'm just curious.
Yeah. So, I I sort of encountered him a
few times. Um first of all when I was an
undergraduate at the college um I was
part so in Cambridge University you're
as a student you're assigned to a
college which is a bit like an old
religious institution in a way but
they're basically like these kind of
communities with their own buildings.
They're kind of separate mini
universities within the university
almost and that's where a lot of your
teaching happens where it's where you
live. It's where you have dinner and um
every evening you have it's a bit like
Harry Potter. You have this big meal in
an oak beamed hall uh hall with long
tables and at the end of the hall
there's a high table where all the
fellows so the senior members of the
college the professors sit and Steven
Hawking was a member of the college so
you quite often see him at dinner uh
sometimes you see him like trundling
through the courtyards like in his
wheelchair and he used to actually he
had quite sort of mischievous sense of
humor he used to try to run
undergraduates over when he saw them
he'd kind of accelerate towards you um
so that was my first like brush with him
although I never really spoke to him or
because he was a in the maths department
actually in like a very theoretical
physicist whereas I was studying at the
caendish which is the experimental side
of things but later on in life I I kind
of came across him a couple of times um
one in particular at the science museum
so uh for many years I was a curator at
the science museum in London and one day
I got a call from our director of
communications saying um can you come
down stairs to the like what what they
call the fellow's room which kind of
like a fancy room where they where the
fun people who give money to the museum
can kind of have a cup of tea basically
and um Steve said he said Steven Hawking
has visited with his grandchildren he
turned up with his some of his children
and his grandchildren and they were
trying to he wants to go onto the
gallery so this the science is this big
museum in the middle of London thousands
of people milling around and the museum
knew that they let Stephen Hawin go out
into the gallery it was going to cause
pandemonium so they wanted to like you
know have some people on hand to kind of
manage it so anyway While they were
doing all of that, they asked me to come
down and talk to him because they all
Harry's a physicist. He could like talk
to Stephen Hawking. So, I was kind of
put in front of him and just sort of
started saying, you know, nice to meet
you, Stephen. I was actually at I'm at
Cambridge as well and blah blah blah.
But, of course, it takes him quite a
long time to respond cuz he he has to
sort of select responses word almost
word by word using this screen and it's
very slow. So, he's just sort of sitting
there staring at you. And I kind of got
this sense that he sort of was thinking
who is this idiot that they've they've
put in front of me. So I just kind of
gabbled away for a bit and then
eventually his family turned up and I
was kind of saved from kind of
embarrassing myself. So yeah, I had a
few encounters with him and he was like,
you know, obviously an inspirational
figure uh just in his own right as a
scientist but obviously particularly
given the the physical challenges he had
Yeah. Um and so you've written two
popular science books, right? So one is
uh how to make an apple pipe from
scratch. Like your first popular science
book, uh which came out a few years ago
and your latest one, it's it's the one
actually that I see behind you on your copy.
copy.
Yeah. Yeah.
So yeah, here they are.
These are these are the UK editions. So
yeah, that was the
that was the first one. um
came out in 2021.
Uhhuh. Yeah.
And this is and this and this is the new
one. Yeah.
And so so the first one it's using
Yeah. famous quote. Yeah. Have to make
that uh he came up with and uh so u you
know u
there's this very famous phenomena you
might have heard of it you know when it
comes to uh like sense communication the
the so-called curse of knowledge
problem. You know that uh essentially
when you understand something like very
deeply um you sometimes know forget what
it's like to to hear or to hear it for
the first time and you know you may not
you know talk in the language that the
lay person would be able to understand
uh because you know you just assume that
you know they will will be able to
follow you and uh I'm just wondering if
you maybe uh if you have a particular
strategy you know for bringing this like
obviously very complicated and you know
ideas from like your from cutting edge
research out know to the general public
because uh you know sometimes it can be
quite difficult for people to follow I
mean like you do a beautiful job of it
and you know uh I can say this like for
from having read you know the that of
your books but uh still maybe I was
wondering if you have maybe some thought
process behind you know writing paper
science that you know that might share
you know like how you go about doing it.
Yeah. I It's interesting. I've been
asked this question a few times. I never
really have a very good answer because I
think I'm I'm not a very reflective I'm
not very reflective when it comes to the
way I communicate. I think it's just
it's sort of natural to an extent and
and maybe it's because I think to
understand for me to understand
something I have to break it down into a
series of simple steps. So it's a kind
of expression of I suppose the way I
think to a certain degree. But I mean
another thing I mean I think what I I I
always try and do I think you know
popular science isn't just about
presenting the science. It's about
presenting the sort of this process of
scientific discovery. So storytelling is
a very important thing I think in at
least in my writing and my books I I try
I try to make them into sort of almost
you know mystery stories. It's about
this kind of process of discovery and
the people involved and the journeys
they go on and the challenges they face
and and that's what makes I think
science exciting. It's not
and and physics particularly. It's not
about just presenting some stark facts
like you know these are the 17 particles
that make up the universe and these are
the forces. You can say that in a in a
in a page or two. But what's exciting
about physics is how we figure out these
things about the world and this process
that we apply to the world. So most of
the book these books are really about
that process and and how we go from sort
of not understanding something to
understanding something or realizing
that the way we thought about the world
was completely wrong and it's actually
totally different than what we thought.
And I think that's what is sort of
magical and exciting about science. It's
that process and that and and it's very
dramatic. I think I think the stories in
science are really dramatic and
inspiring and I suppose you know you
mentioned Oppenheimer briefly a second
ago you know that that film for example
by Christopher Nolan that came out last
year that's a that whole story is a
brilliant example of the scientific
process and in a particular story that
not only has huge scientific
consequences but huge political
geopolitical consequences as well. Um
and that's why that's what I really
that's what I love and find exciting. So
I think those are the stories I try and
share. I very rarely give a talk or or
write an article that is just explaining
a concept. It will always be centered
around a person or some a group of
people and the the journey that they go
on. And I think that helps ground it cuz
you know that's ultimately I think as a
reader or or someone listening to a talk
if you're taken along on that journey
with the scientist you can kind of feel
the same excitement at the moment of
revelation and so on that they have and
that makes the whole thing much more
compelling and and then it's kind of it
makes you care enough to do the hard
work to actually understand what can be
quite difficult scientific concepts. But
I suppose the other thing I would say
it's actually like you know in although
physics you know is regarded as being a
very difficult subject and it is in a
way most of it you know if you you can
take the most complicated idea you can
break it down into a series of steps and
each of those steps on its own is quite
simple and and so it is possible
actually even you know in in a book like
in a book like these for example you you
can take the audience quite a long way
as long as you are aware of the things
they don't know and be sure to explain
them properly and you know if you're
methodical you can get people to
yeah and I get somewhere that uh you
know physics uh well it may appear very
difficult because we actually we know so
much about it but you know it doesn't
mean like you know it's not you know uh
like impossible or it doesn't mean that
you know it's for that person it's
impossible to understand whereas for
example if we talk about the issue of
consciousness or something like this
where you know we know so little you
know it's different but in a very diff
it's it's difficult but in a very
difficult different kind of way you know
at least seems to me like this
um but um you know it's it's actually um
I'd like to pick up on what we were just
saying about like the scientific process
and you know I I had to say that I I had
never really been exposed to this way of
of looking at science as a as a kid know
when I was just in school like you said
you know uh in school the experience of
of that that most kids have of science
is actually quite you know they view it
as as this very boring of uh subject
like very intimidating and and so on and
but it was like only after I got out of
school and you know only when I was uh
exposed to books like yours and you know
like Brian Cox I'm sure you know about
him yeah and when it's people like that
that you know that I really begin to
view it as as like you said know this
quest this journey that you know we've
been on to you know to to figure out the
like all this like the answers to this
big questions you know of existence
basically and uh it's uh you know for me
it just goes uh completely against the
this uh kind of a common stereotype this
perception that you know many people
like in the general public you know
might about scientists know they they
view scientists as this like very boring
completely you know devoid of uh any
passion excitement know people and uh
for example when I'm you know listening
to one of your talks or when I'm just
speaking uh to you right now like I love
that um you have this uh smile on your
face we know when talking about this
stuff like clearly you know you're
excited about it and just you know for
me it goes against that you know public
public like perception that that many
might have about scientists and science
know itself like you know name view it
as this like lifeless you know and and
yeah very boring subject that you know
you have to do in school but then you
sort of leave it behind maybe I don't
know if you can maybe say a few words
about that maybe you know you've
encountered people in your life who who
you know who had this kind of perception
about science or scientists
yeah I I think that is probably quite
common as I mean there's a great story
by Fineman which he tells in an
interview for the BBC back in the 1980s.
So, Richard Feman, who's one of the sort
of leading theoreticians of the 20th
century and established a lot of the
theory behind our modern understanding
of particle physics and he's talk he
talks about in this interview a
conversation with an artist and the
artist says to him, you know, you
scientists, when you look at a flower,
you can't appreciate the beauty of the
flower. All you want to do is take the
flower apart and dismantle it and kind
of pick it apart and understand what's
going on. And Fineman sort of says, you
know, in his kind of like New York draw,
like, you know, well, I may not have as,
you know, refined appreciation of beauty
as as you do, but, you know, when I when
I look at the flower, I I can see its
beauty, but I can also see that, you
know, the colors it has were evolved
over millions of years to attract
insects and the structure of the the
statement to disperse pollen. and he
says I I don't see how that
understanding detracts from the
appreciation of the beauty of the
flower. It only adds to it. So I think
there is this sense that science is this
sort of sterile dry subject and or that
scientists are boring as you put it. I
mean I think you know there are these
stereotypes about physicists um and some
of them are justified to an extent you
know I should I probably shouldn't say
this but if you if you meet a bunch of
physicists some of them will seem you
know very normal and and sort of jolly
and and interesting but some some of
them are quite you know kind of focused
on what they're doing and head down and
maybe a bit socially awkward that but
that's but there's a spread I think you
know if you look at I don't know things
like the big bang theory the TV show
where you have like Sheldon Cooper who's
probably the people's idea of the
archetypical physicist. And I've
definitely met people like that. Those
people exist to an extent, but most
people are not like that. Most people
are pretty ordinary. Um, and yeah, I
it's it's a it's a it's a perception I
think that has has shifted a lot in the
last few decades thanks to people like
Brian Cox and Neil Degrass Tyson and and
others around the world. I I don't know
what the situation I don't know who in
Ukraine are your kind of public figures
in science whether whether that the same
thing is happening there or or or or
what but I'm hoping that you know as
people as science I think also this is a
democratization of science communication
you've got you know science YouTubers
who are doing great work who have big
followings who's you know that a lot of
that is also based around a certain
personality that they've kind of got
this friendly inviting you know enthusiastic
enthusiastic
persona um which hopes to hopefully kind
of remove this stereotype. Although as I
said the stereotypes are true to an
extent sometimes as well.
You know, I love watching advertising
for example. I'm sure you know. Yeah.
And he's got, you know,
I guess. Yeah. That's the name of it.
Derek Mu, I guess that's, you know, his
his name. Like he talks a lot about
physics, you know, this. Yeah. And has,
you know, millions of subscribers. And
um well, uh I also want to ask you like
what kind of work are you involved in
now? You know, I read that uh you're
involved in something like the LHCB
experiment, right? The LHC know stands
for the large collider and B is for one
of the qus and maybe you know like if
you could say in shorts like what's that
about that kind?
Yeah. So um well so the large hydron
collider is a gigantic particle
accelerator buried 100 meters
underground at CERN near Geneva which is
the European organization for nuclear
research. And so it's this big ring. It
accelerates subatomic particles called
protons to almost the speed of light and
then it collides them into each other.
And I work around this 27 km ring there
are four places where these particles
collide. And around those points there
are these big detectors that basically
study the collisions. And one of them is
one of these four detectors is called
LHCB. Um so large LHC large hydron
collider and B stands for beauty. Um
which is the name of one of the six
quarks. So there are these fundamental
particles called quarks.
There are six of them in nature. Two of
them make up the nucleus of the atom. So
the stuff that we're made of basically.
There are four others. And the beauty
quark is the the fifth heaviest. And
it's like very exotic. It doesn't exist
in nature normally, but we can make them
in large quantities in in these
collisions at the LHC. And my
experiment's job basically is to study
these particles in great detail. And the
reason this is interesting is that in
short, basically the way these beauty
quarks behave in particular, like when
when you create one of these things, it
only lives for about 1 and a half
trillionths of a second before it decays
into other particles. And these because
they're very heavy, these beauty quarks
can decay in lots and lots of different
ways. And by looking at these different
decay processes, you can learn about the
fundamental forces that govern the
universe. Because the way these decays
happen is basically via the fundamental
forces that we know about. And the basic
game we play is we we measure the
behavior of these particles and we
compare to the predictions of our
current best theory of particle physics,
something called the standard model. And
we're looking for places where our
experiment disagrees with the theory
because it's where you have these
disagreements that you can get a clue to
something new that you haven't seen
before. So for example, if there was a
fifth force, some new force in nature
that we've not seen before that affected
how these beauty quarks behave and we
see we could see some evidence of that
in the in the in the measurements that
we make at LHCB. So that's what the
experiment does and I'm part of a team.
It's it's about 1,700
people now I think working on LHCB. So
it's a big international project that
has people from all over the world
including Ukraine. So um the institute
HKE uh is is a member of LHCB and and is
involved in the experiment. There may be
other I can't there may be even other
Ukrainian institutes involved. So all
all of the four LHC experiments are big
international projects. And I think
that's also one of the things that makes
CERN beyond the science that makes it
inspiring is that it's bringing people
from different countries, different
cultures together to work on scientific
questions for you know for peaceful
purposes. So it's you know it's
curiositydriven research. It's not about
making bombs or weapons or you know kind
of or even particularly anything that
you can really use it. It's about
understanding the the world we live in
and what I love you know the LC itself
is like this uh a huge device and it
just know like never stops to reminds me
every time every time I learn something
about it you know like just the sheer
complexity of it and the fact like
you're saying know that it's all very
international you know such a huge
international project and the fact that
u we've been able to to build something
like this uh just incredible And and and
also uh one of the things that also um
blows my mind is uh when so we have this
time deation effect, right? And so when
this ports get get slammed into each
other, I get that um uh this uh tunnel
which is like 27 km in circumference,
right? in diameter like to the photons
uh like because the the distance shrinks
by each facal to the photons it's it's
like 4 meters or so you know
because because because they they're
moving like very very close to the speed
of light and yeah the u from that
perspective like yeah distances shrink
and you know just just it was just
amazing for me when I when I like read
that and uh it it's I was curious know like
like
Does it also like give you that sense of
amazement, you know, when you when you
for example go you know go there like
underground and you know um just uh
that sense of of like u like oh my gosh
how you know um how have we been able to
to build such such a device and like I
don't know if you how you feel about it then
then
yeah I mean the the engineering at CERN
is amazing. So I first visited CERN in
2007. So God like getting on for 20
years ago now, which is a bit scary.
Don't know how that happened. Um when
they were building the large Hadron
Collider. So I was a student and uh I
was on the CERN summer student program.
So basically it's like students from all
over Europe come together at CERN and
spend like a couple of months working on
a little research project as as part of
usually one of the experiments there.
And we went to visit uh one of the big
detectors that was being built at the
time. is called CMS uh com the compact
muon solenoid experiment which I was
involved in uh when I was out there and
remember we went into this massive
warehouse above ground on the other side
of the ring so out in the French
countryside and you had these huge
slices of the detector is basically like
a barrel shape like a barrel on its side
and it was basically assembled by
imagine like vertical slices out of that
barrel. They're like slid along down a
shaft and then assembled and they were
all lined up on the surface ready to be
put into the experiment. These things
are enormous. They're like 15 m high.
Look like they're something out of
Stargate, you know, kind of crazy. And
so that was kind of inspiring seeing all
of that. And that was the kind of that
was so 2007 it was a year before the LHC
switched on for the first time. And it
was we were already then at the kind of
end of a very long road like the the LHC
was first discussed seriously as a
potential project in the late 1970s
and then it was approved in the '9s. All
the funding was got together and then
this process of assembly construction.
So you're talking like decades of work
to make this thing a reality. So when I
turned up as a student I was really
there at the end of this very long
process and seeing it all come together.
And it was, you know, when when that
when they switched the LHC on for the
first time, there was this amazing this
tremendous feeling of excitement, I
think, because all that work, thousands
of different people from all over the
world doing their particular job and it
all comes together and it works, you
know, pretty it's kind of miraculous
really, I think, in some ways. as you
say is this incredibly complicated
endeavor involving a huge range of
different sorts of you know engineers,
physicists, computer scientists and all
of it has to work uh and and it does you
know and it's delivered amazing science
for a decade and a half now and will
hopefully carry on doing so for another
decade or or more. So yeah, I mean I
find that I think the science aside,
that kind of shared human endeavor and
the fact that we can achieve these
incredible things when we work together
that is that is incredibly inspiring and
and you know I think it's what it's a
large part of what makes international
particle physics valuable is that you
know kind of joint joint achievement and effort.
But uh don't you feel like you know when
you said that u we're doing this
experiments uh basically for for no
reason other than like just trying to
learn more about the fundamental you
know nature of of matter and so on but
uh uh for example as I know you know
quantum mechanics when it was just you
know being developed like those people
they um they couldn't imagine that you
know like uh 50 70 years later you know
it would basically yield all the amazing
incredible technology you know that like
we benefit from today. So, and so like
uh do you imagine that you know some of
these discoveries might actually like in
the future you know give us some or like
um yield some you know also some amazing
technology because you know it seems to
me like just um uh
when just fund this like curioity driven
research right and you you let just you
know smart people think about these
things like then uh somewhere along the
way, you know, someone comes up with
some like amazing technology that
improves our lives. Maybe I don't know
how you feel about it.
Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I I it's it's
possible for sure and like you get
quantum mechanics as a good example of
of that. I mean, another example maybe
sort of in some ways even more dramatic
is nuclear energy. So um when the the
atom was first split using an early
particle accelerator in Cambridge in 1932
1932
and this was when Ernest Rutherford was
in charge of the Camdish laboratory and
in the in this experiment basically what
they did was they split lithium nuclei
in two by firing protons at them and
they found that when they did this
energy was released and it was the first
time that Einstein's famous equation E=
MC² was demonstrated basically you could
turn matter into energy and you could
release energy from the nucleus. And
journalists asked Rutherford like at the
press conference or at some interview
after the discovery, you know, are we
now going to be able to get energy out
of the nucleus? Is like nuclear energy
going to transform the world? And
Rutherford, who was like the leader of
the field, he he discovered the nucleus,
you know, led the subject for decades,
said, you know, no, you're never going
to get energy out of the nucleus. This
is like moonshine. Forget about it. And
you know a decade and a half later you
have atom bombs you have nuclear
reactors. So the people who are at the
forefront of the science often cannot
foresee the impact of their own their
own own work. Uh so with with CERN it's
you know there are two different sorts
of technologies that can emerge. There's
the direct application of the knowledge
itself. I'll come back to that. But
there's also loads of there's the
spin-offs. So when you build a gigantic
experiment like the LHC, you're forced
to develop all kinds of new technologies
in order to solve problems that
previously were not solvable. So an
example of this is like um one very
famous example, the worldwide web which
was developed by Tim Berners Lee at CERN
in the 1990s that was basically put
together as a way for scientists to
share information across a network and
that was given away for nothing to the
to the world. say was not, you know,
CERN didn't retain any IP on the on the
worldwide web. That's one example.
Another is the the the way that these
accelerators work is they use very
powerful electromagnets to steer the
particles around. And these use
materials called superconductors. And
particle physics historically has always
been pushing the limits of the the sort
of strength of superconducting magnets
that you can make. And that has led to
developments in MRI machines, in
hospitals, cancer therapy machines. So
you know it's a similar argument with
the space program that you know when
this one of the benefits of the Apollo
missions was developing technologies for
the space program that then had
applications on earth you know I think
the ballpoint pen is a famous if not
that inspiring one [laughter] um so that
that's there's those kinds of arguments
then and also you know when you build
these massive projects you're investing
in the high-tech sectors of the
countries that are building them. So
there's a kind of Keynesian economic
argument that you're supporting your
high-tech sector. But then there's a
question, okay, will the knowledge we
discover at these experiments have an
application and that is much harder to
answer. And I think with you know the
major discovery of the LHC is the Higs
Bzon which is the particle that's
involved in the process that gives mass
to every to the the fundamental
particles that we're made of. Can we use
the Hig boson for something? Well, it's
it's very difficult at the moment to see
how it could be useful, but you know
what we're doing at CERN is we're trying
to find out what are the basic building
blocks of our universe. What are the
laws that govern the universe? And so
by knowing those things, you're in a
better position to come up with some
groundbreaking technology than than not
understanding. But as to could you apply
I mean some people have suggested um I
was at a talk a couple of years ago 2023
in London uh where we were people were
discussing a successor to the LHC so the
next big accelerator and like what are
the arguments that you can make for this
from a sort of applications point of
view and one really like wacky sci-fi
idea that a serious scientist said you
know in the future this may be possible
is this idea of something called a
spalorizer which basically uses is the
Higs field in a very very like
particular way to generate energy. Now
like scientifically it's possible but
like the technology is way way beyond
what we can do right now. But you can
think of things like that that maybe one
day we'll use the Higs Bzon in some
amazing way to fly spacecraft across the
universe or generate huge amounts of
energy. But for now, you know, it's
really we're acquiring the knowledge and
it and it may take years, decades, maybe
even centuries to figure out how you
actually apply it.
What's like, you know, one mystery from
your field, you know, particle physics
that you'd love to to see solved, you
know, in your lifetime? It could be
maybe like the nature of the dark matter
or you know anything else or it's uh
also something that that you can
actually imagine making progress or you
know not just uh you know you you wish
we would solve it but where you think
you know we could actually make some
headway in terms of understanding. I
mean, dark matter, dark matter is
exciting for sure, and I would obviously
love to know, a lot of people would love
to know what dark matter is, but I
think, you know, that it could be it
could be a rather uninteresting answer.
It could just be there's an extra
particle that doesn't interact with
light and we just add it onto our
current list of particles. And that
would be cool because we okay we know
what a lot of the universe is made from
but it wouldn't it wouldn't change
things in a big way I don't think in
terms of how we think about the world
necessarily and cuz everyone sort of
already thinks that dark matter is a
particle right so it would just be like
well what's the mass of this particle
the the thing that would be more
interesting I think would be discovering
so we have this theory in particle
physics that's called the standard model
and there are 17 particles in the
standard model and we don't know why
they exist. So we have this like list of
particles. Now there are certain
symmetries that relate them to each
other like there are six quarks, six
leptons which leptons are things like
the electron and the nutrinos. They have
these repeating patterns in their
properties a bit like the periodic table
of the elements that Mendelv wrote down
in the 19th century. and the periodic
table of the elements. The patterns in
that table were clues to the fact that
atoms had substructure and ultimately
those patterns come from the way that
electrons arrange themselves around
different atoms. That's where those
chemical properties come from. So in the
standard model, we're looking at a
similar sort of thing, much smaller
periodic table, but we don't understand
where those patterns come from. And I
think what I would really like to know,
there's this sense that the standard
model is like a partial picture of some
deeper, more symmetrical theory. And
what I would like to know is what is
that more that what is that larger
theory that the standard model is a
corner of? And you know, discovering
dark matter could give us a clue to that
because that would add an extra piece to
the picture. It's a little bit like
we've got a puzzle and we filled in one
corner and we're kind of seeing that
there's a sort of element of symmetry in
it, but we can't see the whole picture
yet. And by filling in some more of the
gaps, maybe we'll be able to start to go
a stand back and say, "Right, we can now
see that this kind of arbitrary list of
particles and forces actually comes from
a much more deeper, more elegant
structure." And that that's sort of what
I would be most excited about because
that would really be a big shift in how
we think about the world rather than
just adding another particle to the list
of things that we know about.
But let me just say you know and I don't
know if you feel the same way but the
standard model is like such a boring
name for you know the most successful
theory like in all of science just yeah
I wish you know somebody like you know
would have come up with with a better
like [laughter]
yeah it's a it's a pretty uninspiring
name it's true yeah it's yeah
but u you know I well um I should say
like from reading your wrote latest book
space audit is uh I I got the sense that um
um
well first of all again like many of us
had this misconception that you know
well that's science was all done like by
by many 200 years ago and know you know
there's like no more more mysteries left
I certainly know felt that way like like
I was was talking when I was you know in
school and like you know it it didn't
seem to me like was were doing because
know u but but but now I There there is
just so so many more mysteries now yet
to be solved. And uh uh just uh and and
and also like another thing that uh um
also just
amazes me is is that uh in science you
love being surprised, right? For
example, when the when we discovered the
Hig boson like uh again like the the
headline headlines were like just this,
you know, amazing discovery. We've been
waiting for it. Oh yes, but I heard scientists
scientists
saying that we almost didn't want it to
be discovered because you know that that
would mean that like you know uh there's
like something else and yeah uh and
maybe some like new paradigm of uh of
like physics and u yeah it's
it's just amazing for me because uh you
know in a real life uh we like most of
the time we want to be right and we want
to like you know feel like you know our
ideas uh are like proved and so on. But
in science it feels like you know you're
entering this like very different world
and uh very like but it's it's also
valuable because you know you you you
try to prove yourself right but al but
most of the time you you want to prove
yourself wrong and um and you know um
because that's like you said where
progress lies and you know like where
like new surprises might might come up
and I don't know if you maybe can
elaborate on that.
Yeah. No, I think that's right. We I
mean, okay, if you're a theorist and
you've come up with some theory of the
universe, I guess you want your ideas to
be confirmed. But, you know, if you're
an experimentalist, what you really want
to do is find something unexpected
because it's the unexpected thing that
teaches you the most, the thing that
doesn't fit your world view. And I sort
of think about the way the world is
going at the moment and it's very
different to the way we think in
politics where people have these very
set ideas about their view of the way
the world is and anything that doesn't
conform to that prejudice is ignored or
dismissed and science is the other is
the opposite. It's you know being open
it's about being open-minded. It's about
challenging your prejudices or your
priors and and you know looking at new
evidence and thinking about how could my
view of the world be revised or improved
or changed. And so no that that's
absolutely right. We like nothing more
than unexpected surprising results. And
often it's those very surprising it's
those unexpected measurements or
observations that teach us the most.
like a a very good example of this which
I talk about in space oddities is
um an experiment that was done in the in
the 1960s in America. So this was a a
radio astronomy experiment by two
American astronomers called Arno Penzas
and Robert Wilson and they were working
with a big radio antenna uh in New
Jersey just across the way from New York
and they imagine this big uh big metal
hornshaped instrument in a field and
they're looking at the sky in radio
waves and they discover this really
irritating noise in their receiver like
it's kind of this like low-level
microwave noise and they can't figure
out what this is they they think maybe
it's stray radio broadcast from New
York. So they point the antenna at New
York, but it doesn't get any louder.
They think eventually they just they
climb inside the antenna and discover
that pigeons have taken up roost in the
antenna and they think or maybe the
noise is caused by the pigeon dropping.
They evict the pigeons, clean up their
their crap, and but the noise persists
and eventually it's realized that this
noise is not what they had what just
seemed to be some irritating quirk of
the experiment was actually radiation
left over from the big bang. And what
they had found was that the clinching
evidence that really proved that the
universe began with this awesome
expansion of space and time 13.8 billion
years ago. And that came from this kind
of very small strange thing they
couldn't quite figure out. And so in
science, we're always looking for those
sorts of unexpected observations that
might open up a new view of of the world.
world.
Yeah. And it's also like um you make
this very point in your in the latest
book that uh and it's again like one of
the misconceptions that we have you know
as like the general public is that uh we
often think that progress in science is
is is made by those like people like
Einstein you know like sitting you know
alone like in the middle of night and
like coming up with some you know
amazing new idea but but uh it's it's
most of the time like experiments uh
lead the way and and even like anomalies
like you know yeah like you discussed in
the book like this strange things that
we couldn't quite explain with our
current you know theories and uh like I
also love those you know
um like examples from history like
having to do with the the
orbit of planet Mercury right there was
like this discrepancy in in micro orbit
and you know Newton's theory I couldn't
quite know explain what was going on and
and also uh like u I also read somewhere
like when it comes to quantum mechanics
there was also like the so-called like
black body radiation right and
ultraviolet catastrophe I guess that's
what what is called and you know those
people like trying to solve that problem
like you know couldn't imagine that it
would yield you know a completely like
new paradigm of physics obviously and
you know just amazing for me
uh you know because again like goes
against that view that you know many
might have that it's all you know just
uh like obviously every once in a while
we have people like Einstein of coming
up with some amazing ideas but he he was
like duplicated by experiments you know
himself right so yeah maybe you can
yeah science is about the world as we
find it so you know theorists can only
come up with ideas based on the evidence
that we've already you know observed so Einstein's
Einstein's
Einstein's theory didn't come out of
nowhere. They they came out of a
scientific context which involved many
many observations and experiments that
were hinting at the ideas that he
proposed. Now you know Einstein was a
particularly brilliant example of a
theorist who managed to sort of leap
ahead of where most other people were um
and and and kind of pull these
incredible ideas almost out of thin air
it seemed. But that is very rarely how
science happens and and most of the time
it is this you know experiment-driven
head down in the data trying to
understand what's going on in the world
and and the theorizing you know then
kind of follows on from that and may
propose new things that experiments go
on and investigate. So there's this kind
of symbiotic relationship between the
two. But yeah, I mean, as you say, it's
one of the things I try to sort of
balance a bit in the book is, you know,
these these narratives of like lone
geniuses alone in the patent office or
wherever coming up with these deep
truths about the universe. That's a very
romantic idea and and you know, it's
appealing and perhaps the sort of the
reality of experimental science, which
is a lot of trial and error with bits of
equipment and wires and glass and and
gases in a lab going on for years and
years and years to try to understand
some phenomena. It's less glamorous.
it's maybe less sort of it doesn't make
such a good story but that is how you
know the majority of science is is done
and so it's trying to like you know kind
of balance out these like heroic
narratives of theory with the kind of
the reality the experimental reality I suppose
suppose
I've I've heard people say you know when
they speak of the standard model of
particle physics that uh it's it's both
like very beautiful you know as a theory
but also quite ugly
you know because in like the following
sense that
that you got all this uh you know a
whole lot of parameters that you don't
really have an explanation for right you
just assume that uh has to be this way
and so like uh do you find uh it also
like perplexing perplexing about this
like whole
model or do you think that uh maybe and
that maybe there's like some new physics
like waiting to be discovered or do you
think that uh maybe like will fix a
bunch of things and then like it it all
will like work together very beautifully like
like
yeah I mean I think the standard model
in some ways is underappreciated if
people say oh it's ugly it's got all
these particles and these parameters we
don't really understand it but there are
you know if you speak to theorists who
really really think about standard model
and quantum field theory they'll they'll
point out certain features of the theory
that are quite sort of striking. So for
example like one of the things that
seems really arbitrary in the standard
model is that the matter particles so
the quarks and the lepttons come in what
we call three generations.
So the first generation is the stuff
that the universe that we can see around
us is made of. So it's like the electron
and the up and the down quark are in the
first generation and that's what makes
up the atoms in our body. Then there's a
second generation which have copies of
those first generation particles but
heavier and then another generation the
third generation which is even heavier.
And we don't know why these three
generations exist. It's a it's a real
mystery. But one of the things you can
show is that if you want to be able to
have uh there's this mystery in in in
cosmology which is that there is in in
particle physics there is a symmetry
between particles and antiparticles. So
like matter and antimatter. And in the
big bang in cosmology, if you use the
standard model, you get this prediction
that basically you should have equal
amounts of matter and antimatter
produced and then they would annihilate
and you end up with a universe with
nothing in it. So the fact that we exist
is a big mystery. And uh one of the
things that has to happen in order for
there to end up more matter in the
universe than antimatter, you have to
have a a violation of the symmetry
between matter and antimatter. And this
symmetry can only be broken if there are
at least three generations of matter. So
it seems like the standard model you we
don't we still don't really know why
those three generations are there. But
we know that if there were not three
generations, if there were fewer, there
could not be matter antimatter asymmetry
and and therefore there wouldn't be
anything in the universe. So it seems
that these things that look random or
strange actually they're linked to
why the universe is the way it is in
quite a deep way. So but as you say
nonetheless there are still these as I
said earlier there are these features.
It's like we're seeing the edge of some
bigger picture and I think a lot of
people still hope that we will get the
clues that will simplify the standard
model and will reveal that actually all
these things that seem arbitrary are
actually have have a deeper explanation.
Yeah, but we'll see if we get there.
But do you think that for example uh the
famous nutrina problem, do you think
that it might be a clue to your physics?
Because you know, I've also read that um
because we can't quite explain Yeah. why
this nutrinos have this like tiny mass,
right? And and do you think that it
might might lead us to like some new theory?
theory?
Yeah, I mean it may do. I mean, you
don't necessarily need new physics to
explain the mass of nutrinos, but it is
very strange that they're so small
compared to the other particles. So, and
the nutrino sector is still not that
well understood. We we don't really know
the relationships in the masses between
the different nutrinos. We don't know
yet really whether nutrinos break matter
antimatter asymmetry. We know the quarks
do, but we don't know about nutrinos.
So, there's lots to learn. And yeah, may
maybe that's one area where new physics
may emerge or it may emerge from the
Higs Bzon. It may emerge from beauty
quarks. It may emerge from somewhere
completely unexpected. It's quite hard
to say in advance. But that's why we
have to experimentally kind of cover all
our bases. We need experiments that look
at all of these things to allow us to
continue to make progress because you
never really know when the next
discovery is going to going to come.
And I'm sure you're aware of Richard
Dawkins, right? The famous biologist,
right? And um you know, I bring him up
because um well, for me, you know, abuse
abuse science as like this quest to to
better understand who we are and how we
like fit into like the larger picture of
reality. And I put it in the same
category you know is like art, music and
uh you know even religion uh in the
sense that u you know for me this whole
attempts to gain some insight into like
the human condition and you know and
into like the and uh have you like uh
response to nature and uh there's like
this tendency and I don't know if you if
you could say like anything about this
but uh uh like people like Dawkins know
the the willingness to like completely
dismiss any positive value of
romogiction because you know it like
clearly doesn't you know accurately
describe our world and know science does
much better job but for me know it can
serve like many other purposes and you
know lots of people benefit from it um
like know as as kind of maybe spiritual
guide or like you know to to better
understand like your inner self I don't
know like what you
of religion but maybe yeah can speak to
that. Yeah, I I mean I think Dawkins has
a particular view of the of religion and
and science. I I don't think the
religion and science necessarily
address the same issues. They do to some
extent. I mean to the extent that
certain types of religion have very
dogmatic views about the origin of the
world and you know the way things are
you know issues like evolution for
example you know in in large parts of
like Christian America people do not
believe in evolution by natural
selection even though the overwhelming
evidence says that this is indeed how
life evolves and and and propagates. And
so I think that that you know as a
scientist when when religion comes up
against scientific
established scientific ideas in a way
that is harmful to people's
understanding of the of the world and
not just their understanding of the
world but also could have practical
practical negative consequences like for
example you know forbidding
contraception which leads to the spread
of sexually transmitted diseases or
saying that you can't take blood
transfusions or vaccines are bad or
whatever whatever you want to choose
these these are kind of areas where I
think it's legitimate for scientists to
say well actually these views are
harmful and this is not what's supported
by the evidence but you know that's a
particular way of looking at issues
between science and religion I mean
personally I I don't personally believe
in anything beyond what we can sort of
see and understand in the world I don't
have a particular religious faith but I
can see that for many people it it
serves serves an important role in their
lives in terms of giving a sense of
meaning or or or beyond even the belief.
I think probably the biggest benefit of
religion is the the community that you
gain from it. And it's something that I
think, you know, so for for several
years in London, I've been I've I've
spoken at an event called Sunday
Assembly, which was set up more than 10
years ago now by a couple of comedians
who had been brought up Christian, but
weren't didn't believe anymore, but they
missed the kind of getting together with
a community on the weekend. you know
that the role that church played in kind
of shared traditions and and festivals
and and you know charity and all these
other things and trying to kind of
replicate that for a non-religious
world like in Britain particularly we're
we're very you know it's one of the
least religious countries I think in in
in the world now. Um but that does come
with you do lose things like churches
were these like social hubs in
historically and the fact that people
don't go to church anymore means they
lose contact with their communities. So
there's lots of roles for religion and I
don't think that science and religion
are necessarily in conflict with each
other. Um although there are these areas
where you know when when religious
starts to say things about this is how
the world came to be or this is the way
that medicine works then well I would
say listen to scientist not not a priest
and uh do you enjoy you know going out
uh and being in in nature every now and
then because you know for me I um I come
from the countryside area you know I've
been living in the countryside for most
of my life that's where like I grew up
was born and
I do love whenever I have the chance
know to for example go out at night and
just look up you know and and if it
happens to be like a clear dark sky and
you know I can see hundreds of at least
hundreds of stars in just uh like for me
know it gives me like that feeling of of
common connection like that I don't
really experience any other way you know I mean like you know I could watch you
I mean like you know I could watch you know like fabulous documentary or like
know like fabulous documentary or like read one of your amazing books or books
read one of your amazing books or books by any other like right but there's like
by any other like right but there's like you know for me nothing like that uh you
you know for me nothing like that uh you know visual experience like seeing know
know visual experience like seeing know the the night sky like full of stars or
the the night sky like full of stars or and I was was wondering know if you
and I was was wondering know if you maybe had some experiences like of
maybe had some experiences like of nature that that have stayed with you
nature that that have stayed with you and maybe like you know um or maybe
and maybe like you know um or maybe made you like rethink you know certain
made you like rethink you know certain things or like change the way you look
things or like change the way you look at things maybe you know maybe you had a
at things maybe you know maybe you had a chance to to visit one of those
chance to to visit one of those observatories, you know, like there are
observatories, you know, like there are there are many where you get to see like
there are many where you get to see like totally the the Milky Way, you know, in
totally the the Milky Way, you know, in all its majesty and
all its majesty and Yeah.
Yeah. Yeah. And I think, you know, I I suppose
Yeah. And I think, you know, I I suppose that's what, you know, coming back to
that's what, you know, coming back to your point about religion and science.
your point about religion and science. One of the things that science does give
One of the things that science does give you, I think, is this sense of awe and
you, I think, is this sense of awe and and wonder at nature and at the universe
and wonder at nature and at the universe and that can be experienced through just
and that can be experienced through just learning about science, but also
learning about science, but also through, you know, direct contact with
through, you know, direct contact with nature. And, you know, I spend a lot of
nature. And, you know, I spend a lot of time walking in the Scottish mountains,
time walking in the Scottish mountains, for example. I really enjoy being out in
for example. I really enjoy being out in nature and and that kind of sense of
nature and and that kind of sense of space that it gives you. I mean, in
space that it gives you. I mean, in terms of Yeah, I mean, I've definitely
terms of Yeah, I mean, I've definitely had moments. One particular moment comes
had moments. One particular moment comes to mind when I was in Australia probably
to mind when I was in Australia probably about 10 years ago for a conference and
about 10 years ago for a conference and I was driving along a road on the coast
I was driving along a road on the coast near Melbourne and it was very very dark
near Melbourne and it was very very dark night and I got out I stopped the car by
night and I got out I stopped the car by the by the sort of beach basically in
the by the sort of beach basically in the middle of the night and got out and
the middle of the night and got out and had a look at the sky and it was you
had a look at the sky and it was you know it was one of the most incredible
know it was one of the most incredible things I'd ever seen because coming
things I'd ever seen because coming living in London there's a lot of light
living in London there's a lot of light you can't really see very much. You
you can't really see very much. You might be lucky to see Orion, you know,
might be lucky to see Orion, you know, in the winter, but otherwise you can't
in the winter, but otherwise you can't see much. But in the southern hemisphere
see much. But in the southern hemisphere on a really dark night, you've got the
on a really dark night, you've got the kind of the whole band of the Milky Way.
kind of the whole band of the Milky Way. You've got the core, you can see like
You've got the core, you can see like the core of the Milky Way, the the the
the core of the Milky Way, the the the these big clouds of dust and gas that go
these big clouds of dust and gas that go around it and the small and large
around it and the small and large melanic clouds. You have this real sense
melanic clouds. You have this real sense of looking at this kind of 3D thing in
of looking at this kind of 3D thing in the sky. And it really was, you know,
the sky. And it really was, you know, kind of all inspiring. And actually, I
kind of all inspiring. And actually, I felt slightly dizzy like looking at I
felt slightly dizzy like looking at I remember I had to like grab hold of the
remember I had to like grab hold of the roof of the car to steady myself cuz
roof of the car to steady myself cuz almost sort of this feeling of vertigo
almost sort of this feeling of vertigo looking at this thing. Um so for sure I
looking at this thing. Um so for sure I think you know nature is is tre has a
think you know nature is is tre has a tremendous power to to create that sense
tremendous power to to create that sense of awe and wonder and and that is
of awe and wonder and and that is ultimately you know where the scientific
ultimately you know where the scientific instinct comes from. Actually, you know,
instinct comes from. Actually, you know, going back to the religion thing again,
going back to the religion thing again, like the um one of the characters, one
like the um one of the characters, one of the science I talk about in my first
of the science I talk about in my first book is um Joseph Priestley who was an
book is um Joseph Priestley who was an English um an English chemist who did
English um an English chemist who did work on the chemical elements and he was
work on the chemical elements and he was a Quaker and Quakers were particular
a Quaker and Quakers were particular type of Christian in in the I in the
type of Christian in in the I in the England particularly but possibly also
England particularly but possibly also elsewhere in Europe and they viewed
elsewhere in Europe and they viewed studying nature as a form of worship of
studying nature as a form of worship of God. like basically the idea that by
God. like basically the idea that by trying to understand the world, you are
trying to understand the world, you are trying to understand God's creation. So
trying to understand God's creation. So there was this real sense that like by
there was this real sense that like by being out in nature, walking the hills,
being out in nature, walking the hills, studying weather patterns, studying
studying weather patterns, studying plants and animals or looking at the
plants and animals or looking at the sky, you weren't just understanding the
sky, you weren't just understanding the world, you were also kind of it was a
world, you were also kind of it was a form of worship as well. So those things
form of worship as well. So those things I think are linked that those instincts
I think are linked that those instincts I suppose towards like spirituality and
I suppose towards like spirituality and and this a nature, they're connected in
and this a nature, they're connected in some ways.
And um well I love I hope you'll be able to see uh this this image right?
to see uh this this image right? Oh the player blue. Yeah. Yeah. Exactly.
Oh the player blue. Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. I love bringing up this image because
I love bringing up this image because you know uh
you know uh it's for me like science is ultimately
it's for me like science is ultimately about perspective you know that that it
about perspective you know that that it gives you and like there is perhaps uh
gives you and like there is perhaps uh no better example of it than you know
no better example of it than you know this um this image and obviously um the
this um this image and obviously um the like beautiful description of that Kang
like beautiful description of that Kang gave us know when he was um and uh he
gave us know when he was um and uh he was describing this uh this picture and
was describing this uh this picture and u the you For me as someone like coming
u the you For me as someone like coming from Ukraine, the I uh I try and return
from Ukraine, the I uh I try and return to it every now and then, you know,
to it every now and then, you know, because it it does give me, you know,
because it it does give me, you know, sense of solace and uh I uh I just uh
sense of solace and uh I uh I just uh kind of say to myself, you know,
kind of say to myself, you know, whenever I hear this like obviously
whenever I hear this like obviously terrible news now, you know, in regards,
terrible news now, you know, in regards, you know, to the like um well, I'm sure
you know, to the like um well, I'm sure you know, we have this um uh like ever
you know, we have this um uh like ever growing conflict with the new US
growing conflict with the new US administration, you know, and things
administration, you know, and things don't seem to be going well for us and
don't seem to be going well for us and just whenever I I I hear
just whenever I I I hear this kind of news, I just say to myself
this kind of news, I just say to myself like this to shall pass and you know
like this to shall pass and you know that things will essentially get better
that things will essentially get better and you know um well at least I hope so
and you know um well at least I hope so and just uh you know I think because of
and just uh you know I think because of this perspective that I've gained you
this perspective that I've gained you know through like learning about these
know through like learning about these things learning about science and like
things learning about science and like being exposed to to stuff that that
being exposed to to stuff that that you've written and like you know this
you've written and like you know this kind of pable that image it's uh
kind of pable that image it's uh allows me to uh yeah to to take that
allows me to uh yeah to to take that bigger picture and you know just
bigger picture and you know just psychologically speaking even it it does
psychologically speaking even it it does help me. So I feel like you know that's
help me. So I feel like you know that's also one of the perhaps values of and
also one of the perhaps values of and beauties of science that you know it um
beauties of science that you know it um at hard times like this you know it can
at hard times like this you know it can um
um be like very useful for you in a way
be like very useful for you in a way that you might not have even like
that you might not have even like realized you know before but
realized you know before but I mean I think I think there's there's a
I mean I think I think there's there's a sort of there's two things there isn't
sort of there's two things there isn't there which is that
there which is that when you look at that image of this the
when you look at that image of this the earth as as what Sega calls a moat of
earth as as what Sega calls a moat of dust suspens ended in a sunbeam. You
dust suspens ended in a sunbeam. You have the sense of this sort of this tiny
have the sense of this sort of this tiny world in this huge universe and all the
world in this huge universe and all the things that we worry about and fight
things that we worry about and fight over are so trivial and irrelevant
over are so trivial and irrelevant really in the scale of the universe. But
really in the scale of the universe. But on the other hand, there's also this
on the other hand, there's also this message that the incredible preciousness
message that the incredible preciousness of like of the world we have and how
of like of the world we have and how fragile it is and we have this duty to
fragile it is and we have this duty to protect it and take care of it and we're
protect it and take care of it and we're not doing a very good job of that at the
not doing a very good job of that at the moment. So, I mean,
moment. So, I mean, I I I often think it would be brilliant
I I I often think it would be brilliant if we could take Vladimir Putin and
if we could take Vladimir Putin and Donald Trump and Xiinping and Netanyahu
Donald Trump and Xiinping and Netanyahu and put them on a rocket and and take
and put them on a rocket and and take them up into the universe and show them
them up into the universe and show them how small their countries are and how,
how small their countries are and how, you know, irrelevant they are and and
you know, irrelevant they are and and maybe they would rethink the way that
maybe they would rethink the way that they approach the world. But maybe or
they approach the world. But maybe or maybe we just don't don't bring them
maybe we just don't don't bring them back to the earth. But it's [laughter]
back to the earth. But it's [laughter] um
um it it is it is I mean I think it is a
it it is it is I mean I think it is a source of solace but it also has this
source of solace but it also has this message that you know it may be that
message that you know it may be that this little rock is the only place in a
this little rock is the only place in a vast universe where atoms have got
vast universe where atoms have got together in a way that allow them to
together in a way that allow them to think about the universe that they live
think about the universe that they live in. And if that's true we've got a huge
in. And if that's true we've got a huge responsibility to not [ __ ] things up.
responsibility to not [ __ ] things up. basically and I I hope that we'll we can
basically and I I hope that we'll we can get that message out and and that that
get that message out and and that that the world will turn again. But yeah,
the world will turn again. But yeah, it's it is I think yeah it's definitely
it's it is I think yeah it's definitely a source of solace and
a source of solace and I also feel like you know there are two
I also feel like you know there are two ways to look at it. One is like you said
ways to look at it. One is like you said that um we're so small and like
that um we're so small and like similarly insignificant you know when
similarly insignificant you know when you just look
you just look take a look at this picture but the
take a look at this picture but the other is like we took this picture you
other is like we took this picture you know like we did it and know like that
know like we did it and know like that that itself you know can be like you
that itself you know can be like you know is a sense of pride that you know
know is a sense of pride that you know that we we've been able to do it so like
that we we've been able to do it so like that's like that itself for me is an
that's like that itself for me is an amazing achievement so like because you
amazing achievement so like because you know it was like um from I guess
know it was like um from I guess six billion kilometers away or so, you
six billion kilometers away or so, you know, was taken by, you know, one of the
know, was taken by, you know, one of the voyagers and yeah, just it's incredible.
voyagers and yeah, just it's incredible. Yeah.
Yeah. So, human Yeah, human beings can do
So, human Yeah, human beings can do incredible things. They can also do
incredible things. They can also do terrible things. And, you know, you have
terrible things. And, you know, you have to hope that our better instincts win
to hope that our better instincts win out in the end.
out in the end. Um like um any books that you've been uh
Um like um any books that you've been uh reading lately, you know, that you might
reading lately, you know, that you might recommend like could be, you know,
recommend like could be, you know, fiction, non-fiction. I don't know like
fiction, non-fiction. I don't know like if if you're into one or the other, but
if if you're into one or the other, but maybe like anything that you've been
maybe like anything that you've been just enjoying that you know that you
just enjoying that you know that you think would be worth like people's time.
think would be worth like people's time. So my my brother for Christmas last year
So my my brother for Christmas last year gave me a collection of Chinese science
gave me a collection of Chinese science fiction books which was called Broken
fiction books which was called Broken Stars which I really enjoyed dipping in
Stars which I really enjoyed dipping in and out of. I'm quite a big science
and out of. I'm quite a big science fiction fan I don't read as much of it
fiction fan I don't read as much of it as I used to when I was younger. I used
as I used to when I was younger. I used to read quite a lot of Arthur C. park
to read quite a lot of Arthur C. park and and that kind of thing. Um trying to
and and that kind of thing. Um trying to think what else I should read more
think what else I should read more popular science, but I don't really. I
popular science, but I don't really. I think because I write it and spend so
think because I write it and spend so much time thinking about it, it's kind
much time thinking about it, it's kind of in a way the last thing I want to
of in a way the last thing I want to look at when I um actually I tell you
look at when I um actually I tell you one thing I'm looking forward to and
one thing I'm looking forward to and it's a bit of a it's kind of a kids
it's a bit of a it's kind of a kids book, I suppose, in a way, but um I'm a
book, I suppose, in a way, but um I'm a big Philip Pullman fan. Uh so Philip
big Philip Pullman fan. Uh so Philip Pullman who wrote a series of books
Pullman who wrote a series of books called His Dark Materials which is about
called His Dark Materials which is about this uh it's basically about these two
this uh it's basically about these two children who go on this amazing
children who go on this amazing adventure and they end up killing God.
adventure and they end up killing God. That's kind of the [laughter] the
That's kind of the [laughter] the punchline, but it's all about, you know,
punchline, but it's all about, you know, it's some about some of the themes we
it's some about some of the themes we talked about. It's about science, it's
talked about. It's about science, it's about religion, it's about authority and
about religion, it's about authority and t tyranny, and it's about freedom. Um,
t tyranny, and it's about freedom. Um, and Philip Pullman actually, uh, he's
and Philip Pullman actually, uh, he's he's written these this follow-up
he's written these this follow-up trilogy of books called The Book of
trilogy of books called The Book of Dust, and we're waiting eagerly for the
Dust, and we're waiting eagerly for the last one to come out. So, hopefully that
last one to come out. So, hopefully that will be I think it's going to be out in
will be I think it's going to be out in the next year or two. So, that's
the next year or two. So, that's something I'm very much looking forward
something I'm very much looking forward to.
to. I'm I'm reading coolantly like um we'll
I'm I'm reading coolantly like um we'll be able to see.
be able to see. Oh, yeah.
Oh, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And uh it's a
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And uh it's a biography of him by Kitty Ferguson who
biography of him by Kitty Ferguson who you might have heard of. Yeah. it's
you might have heard of. Yeah. it's she's yeah English uh science writer and
she's yeah English uh science writer and you know she's written a lot about like
you know she's written a lot about like a lot about the lives of you know famous
a lot about the lives of you know famous scientists in the past and like what's
scientists in the past and like what's lovely about this particular book is
lovely about this particular book is that uh she actually uh uh well uh she
that uh she actually uh uh well uh she actually visited and spent quite a bit
actually visited and spent quite a bit of time you know like personally with
of time you know like personally with Hawin like visit his him in his office
Hawin like visit his him in his office at Cambridge ritual or in his house and
at Cambridge ritual or in his house and uh yeah it's just full of you know
uh yeah it's just full of you know lovely and very like relatable accounts
lovely and very like relatable accounts and you know stories of his life. So
and you know stories of his life. So yeah I could I could recommend you to
yeah I could I could recommend you to take a look at it. I don't know if you
take a look at it. I don't know if you if you get at all but yeah it's it's a
if you get at all but yeah it's it's a good one
good one and have a look. Yeah. And also I love
and have a look. Yeah. And also I love the like u what uh Sean Carol who you
the like u what uh Sean Carol who you might know. Yeah. Yeah. He has come up
might know. Yeah. Yeah. He has come up with and also Brian Hooks who I
with and also Brian Hooks who I mentioned as well and Brian Green also.
mentioned as well and Brian Green also. Yeah. And he does this like world
Yeah. And he does this like world science festival
science festival like it's in the US and Australia I
like it's in the US and Australia I guess. Um this live performances. Uh
guess. Um this live performances. Uh it's it's very nice and u well u
it's it's very nice and u well u like one of the final questions that I I
like one of the final questions that I I want to ask you is um do you think that
want to ask you is um do you think that uh this u like uh this ultimate search
uh this u like uh this ultimate search this quest to like figure out you know
this quest to like figure out you know like discover those building blocks of
like discover those building blocks of of of the do you think that uh it's like
of of the do you think that uh it's like a never ending you know quest or do you
a never ending you know quest or do you think that you know we would come you
think that you know we would come you know at some point we would come to an
know at some point we would come to an end where we would go like you know and
end where we would go like you know and that's the way it is and you know just
that's the way it is and you know just there is nothing more fundamental than
there is nothing more fundamental than this I just give us just a fun question
this I just give us just a fun question because obviously impossible to give
because obviously impossible to give like you know a precise answer but maybe
like you know a precise answer but maybe let's
let's yeah I I really don't know I mean part
yeah I I really don't know I mean part of me hopes there is no final answer
of me hopes there is no final answer because in some ways it would be a shame
because in some ways it would be a shame if we had finished [snorts] the journey
if we had finished [snorts] the journey and and there was nothing new to learn I
and and there was nothing new to learn I mean Steven Weinberg who's uh one of the
mean Steven Weinberg who's uh one of the sort of architects of the standard model
sort of architects of the standard model of particle physics wrote this very
of particle physics wrote this very short beautiful book in the early '9s
short beautiful book in the early '9s called dreams of a final theory which
called dreams of a final theory which talks about this idea of the search for
talks about this idea of the search for the ultimate theory of the universe and
the ultimate theory of the universe and he he makes the case that such a theory
he he makes the case that such a theory may exist and that it may be out there
may exist and that it may be out there but I think we're a very long way away
but I think we're a very long way away from that you know that [snorts]
from that you know that [snorts] there's so much we still don't
there's so much we still don't understand so maybe one day I mean I
understand so maybe one day I mean I think one of the things that you can see
think one of the things that you can see happen in physics is that every step now
happen in physics is that every step now takes more and more effort and energy
takes more and more effort and energy and resources. So we've we've solved a
and resources. So we've we've solved a lot of the easy stuff like the
lot of the easy stuff like the lowhanging fruit you know Newton's apple
lowhanging fruit you know Newton's apple for example literally low hanging fruit
for example literally low hanging fruit but we're now in an era physics is a
but we're now in an era physics is a very mature subject so to make new
very mature subject so to make new discoveries we need bigger experiments
discoveries we need bigger experiments and bigger telescopes and more advanced
and bigger telescopes and more advanced technology and it becomes ever more and
technology and it becomes ever more and more difficult to push the boundaries of
more difficult to push the boundaries of knowledge forward and it takes longer
knowledge forward and it takes longer and longer periods of time and so it but
and longer periods of time and so it but hopefully you know the the big leaps
hopefully you know the the big leaps forward would tend to happen when we
forward would tend to happen when we come up with some new way of looking at
come up with some new way of looking at the world. So like when Galileo first
the world. So like when Galileo first looked through his telescope at the
looked through his telescope at the heavens that transformed very quickly
heavens that transformed very quickly our understanding of the universe and so
our understanding of the universe and so we're always looking for you know what's
we're always looking for you know what's the next instrument what's the next way
the next instrument what's the next way of seeing that will change the way we
of seeing that will change the way we understand the world and I think
understand the world and I think gravitational waves potentially are are
gravitational waves potentially are are a new a way that we will we are learning
a new a way that we will we are learning a lot very quickly but as to whether
a lot very quickly but as to whether we'll ever get to the end maybe um but
we'll ever get to the end maybe um but even if we do even if we do come up with
even if we do even if we do come up with the sort of final or fundamental theory,
the sort of final or fundamental theory, there will still be a huge amount we
there will still be a huge amount we don't understand. Because just because
don't understand. Because just because you understand the fundamental theory
you understand the fundamental theory doesn't mean you understand complexity
doesn't mean you understand complexity in the universe. And actually, you know,
in the universe. And actually, you know, if you want to understand something as
if you want to understand something as complicated as say the human brain,
complicated as say the human brain, particle physics is absolutely useless.
particle physics is absolutely useless. Like the brain is far too large an
Like the brain is far too large an object, far too complicated for to treat
object, far too complicated for to treat it as a collection of subatomic
it as a collection of subatomic particles. Um, so you know, maybe we'll
particles. Um, so you know, maybe we'll get to the final theory, but we'll still
get to the final theory, but we'll still always have a lot to learn, I think.
What were you maybe like the most uh what's for the most mind-blowing fact
what's for the most mind-blowing fact about the universe, you know, if you
about the universe, you know, if you could like pick any like, you know, the
could like pick any like, you know, the something that or maybe some kind of
something that or maybe some kind of observation or something that that that
observation or something that that that like never stops to blow your mind.
like never stops to blow your mind. Maybe
Maybe I mean [laughter]
I mean [laughter] I think the thing that I just find
I think the thing that I just find extraordinary is the fact that we can
extraordinary is the fact that we can think about the universe and that we are
think about the universe and that we are made of atoms and those atoms behave
made of atoms and those atoms behave under dumb physical laws that are very
under dumb physical laws that are very simple. You can write them down on a
simple. You can write them down on a piece of paper and somehow
piece of paper and somehow from that incredible simplicity
from that incredible simplicity you get thinking feeling beings that can
you get thinking feeling beings that can wander about the universe and I think
wander about the universe and I think that is deeply mysterious and strange
that is deeply mysterious and strange and there's no reason to think that that
and there's no reason to think that that should be possible right if you if you
should be possible right if you if you if you code up a very simple game with
if you code up a very simple game with little balls bouncing around in space
little balls bouncing around in space you would not expect a living being to
you would not expect a living being to emerge from that albeit over billions of
emerge from that albeit over billions of is but I I think that is very surprising
is but I I think that is very surprising and and extraordinary and mysterious. Uh
and and extraordinary and mysterious. Uh so I probably pick that the fact that I
so I probably pick that the fact that I think was it for Fman called atoms of
think was it for Fman called atoms of consciousness you know the fact that
consciousness you know the fact that atoms can think about atoms is is very
atoms can think about atoms is is very strange.
Yeah. or like what Kagan said like we're a wave for the universe to know itself
a wave for the universe to know itself you know what's
you know what's also love the quote and you know it's
also love the quote and you know it's also interesting like you mentioned
also interesting like you mentioned gravitational waves right and uh I I
gravitational waves right and uh I I love the story that u I read about it
love the story that u I read about it somewhere but uh you know uh you know
somewhere but uh you know uh you know the history behind this discovery like
the history behind this discovery like the there was um there were like these
the there was um there were like these two black holes you know like 1.3
two black holes you know like 1.3 billion Let that light let light away,
billion Let that light let light away, you know, from us. They were like
you know, from us. They were like spiraling into each other and then you
spiraling into each other and then you know like and then merged into one and
know like and then merged into one and like there was like this huge explosion
like there was like this huge explosion and you know lots of energy went out and
and you know lots of energy went out and uh it uh it always was happening while
uh it uh it always was happening while on this planet you know on planet Earth
on this planet you know on planet Earth there were like there was there there
there were like there was there there was still like single cell organisms
was still like single cell organisms single cell life you know but because it
single cell life you know but because it was like you know 1.3 billion years ago
was like you know 1.3 billion years ago but then as as that wave you has
but then as as that wave you has traveled across like the universe you
traveled across like the universe you know and then as as it was was entering
know and then as as it was was entering the Milky Way galaxy it was like
the Milky Way galaxy it was like you know um 100 like thousand years ago
you know um 100 like thousand years ago or something know when uh and and then
or something know when uh and and then like uh 100 years ago it was like we had
like uh 100 years ago it was like we had Einstein of coming up with this this
Einstein of coming up with this this theory and then just uh like uh two two
theory and then just uh like uh two two lighters away they turn on like the, you
lighters away they turn on like the, you know, newly refined version of this like
know, newly refined version of this like Lago detector and uh like two days later
Lago detector and uh like two days later that wave like calls by and passes one
that wave like calls by and passes one of the you know and uh yeah detectors in
of the you know and uh yeah detectors in like Louisiana and in Washington DC just
like Louisiana and in Washington DC just know just an amazing story like you know
know just an amazing story like you know and also like one of the B of science is
and also like one of the B of science is like yeah um because uh we can u like uh
like yeah um because uh we can u like uh like you said know
like you said know we can experience it And we can uh like
we can experience it And we can uh like uh somehow the knowledge that that uh we
uh somehow the knowledge that that uh we have of what we're made of doesn't make
have of what we're made of doesn't make it any less you know mless or whatever
it any less you know mless or whatever just makes more beautiful I guess and uh
just makes more beautiful I guess and uh um the
um the well u you know u also like for me one
well u you know u also like for me one of the beauts of science and u like you
of the beauts of science and u like you mentioned this already several times is
mentioned this already several times is like this uh the sense of unity you know
like this uh the sense of unity you know there so much unity in science Like
there so much unity in science Like Einstein himself was looking for this
Einstein himself was looking for this like so-called unified theory you know
like so-called unified theory you know that would unify all of like forces and
that would unify all of like forces and you know like in biology in the study of
you know like in biology in the study of life there is so much unity because like
life there is so much unity because like we all come from you know we common
we all come from you know we common ancestor right we know DNA with like the
ancestor right we know DNA with like the rest of life and uh I love that that
rest of life and uh I love that that sense of unity because uh it's like
sense of unity because uh it's like transends all this like national and you
transends all this like national and you like religious divisions that you know
like religious divisions that you know we as society know often have and uh
we as society know often have and uh just uh yeah feels to me like uh in
just uh yeah feels to me like uh in science you're entering this like very
science you're entering this like very different world and one that I think we
different world and one that I think we as as human beings would be very happy
as as human beings would be very happy to live in you know if we could all like
to live in you know if we could all like like if science could be like the base
like if science could be like the base of our you know of our government and
of our you know of our government and like or you know
like or you know I know that's like very utopian view But
I know that's like very utopian view But but uh still uh I I'm at least happy
but uh still uh I I'm at least happy that we have this like aspect of our
that we have this like aspect of our lives know called science where you know
lives know called science where you know like
like once you enter it yeah like uh it's it's
once you enter it yeah like uh it's it's just very international and you know
just very international and you know without robotics and uh we just all
without robotics and uh we just all working towards a common goal and uh we
working towards a common goal and uh we just like to better understand better
just like to better understand better understand nature and our like replacing
understand nature and our like replacing it and yeah it's just a
it and yeah it's just a a beautiful enterprise for me. Yeah.
a beautiful enterprise for me. Yeah. Yeah,
Yeah, I wouldn't want to ruin the romance, but
I wouldn't want to ruin the romance, but I suppose I should also say that, you
I suppose I should also say that, you know, science does have conflict as
know, science does have conflict as well, right? Scientists are human beings
well, right? Scientists are human beings and they argue and they fight over
and they argue and they fight over things and there's disputes. And I
things and there's disputes. And I suppose the thing about science though
suppose the thing about science though is because of the process, because of
is because of the process, because of the method, it progresses. So all of
the method, it progresses. So all of those debates and arguments that happen,
those debates and arguments that happen, you know, ultimately they lead towards a
you know, ultimately they lead towards a better understanding because science is
better understanding because science is this rigorous process of testing,
this rigorous process of testing, theorizing, testing and and so on the
theorizing, testing and and so on the whole, yeah, it unifies it. And it is an
whole, yeah, it unifies it. And it is an international community, but we
international community, but we shouldn't pretend that scientists aren't
shouldn't pretend that scientists aren't also badtempered and can be, you know,
also badtempered and can be, you know, greedy and jealous and and have all
greedy and jealous and and have all those other human emotions that, you
those other human emotions that, you know, are part of the human condition.
know, are part of the human condition. Yeah, but but I love that like you said
Yeah, but but I love that like you said that science can send that you know that
that science can send that you know that that like many of those you know biases
that like many of those you know biases that that have to all those because you
that that have to all those because you know you might like um so deeply believe
know you might like um so deeply believe in your own idea but you know if like
in your own idea but you know if like experiment you know shows you shows you
experiment you know shows you shows you that it's one you know you have to just
that it's one you know you have to just like throw it out and you know I love
like throw it out and you know I love that you know science as a as an
that you know science as a as an enterprise can yeah um can do that and u
enterprise can yeah um can do that and u I
I I I also I to ask you know um well like
I I also I to ask you know um well like here in Ukraine we've been dealing with
here in Ukraine we've been dealing with with this you know Russian invasion like
with this you know Russian invasion like for more than three years now you know
for more than three years now you know it's like such such a long time and
it's like such such a long time and like so much terrible stuff has happened
like so much terrible stuff has happened already and uh and uh to us it seems
already and uh and uh to us it seems like there is that things are are going
like there is that things are are going to to get even worse you know like uh I
to to get even worse you know like uh I was talking about know with the new like
was talking about know with the new like US administration and uh it's there's
US administration and uh it's there's just this ever growing sense of
just this ever growing sense of uncertainty you know that
uncertainty you know that many of us could feel and uh uh it might
many of us could feel and uh uh it might be like very easy to just uh you know
be like very easy to just uh you know lose any kind of hope and like give up
lose any kind of hope and like give up you know in the midst of it and I I was
you know in the midst of it and I I was I'd be happy to hear if you you know if
I'd be happy to hear if you you know if you have maybe any any advice or like
you have maybe any any advice or like what message would you like to to give
what message would you like to to give you know to Ukrainians on how to like
you know to Ukrainians on how to like remain hopeful in the midst of all this
remain hopeful in the midst of all this uh uh and maybe have to you know
uh uh and maybe have to you know especially when things get so difficult
especially when things get so difficult uh and you're just overwhelmed you know
uh and you're just overwhelmed you know with frustration and uh and uh feel like
with frustration and uh and uh feel like giving up how to just keep going maybe
giving up how to just keep going maybe you can offer some words of wisdom I
you can offer some words of wisdom I know it's like difficult because you
know it's like difficult because you know you don't live in that environment
know you don't live in that environment but I'm sure like you're following the
but I'm sure like you're following the news and you know and uh it's I know
news and you know and uh it's I know it's like it's It's uh it's very
it's like it's It's uh it's very important for you because like uh you
important for you because like uh you said this in your email, you know, that
said this in your email, you know, that you think about it every day. So maybe
you think about it every day. So maybe you you can share some messages that we
you you can share some messages that we could
could I mean I I I I can't imagine what it's
I mean I I I I can't imagine what it's like to to live in Ukraine at the moment
like to to live in Ukraine at the moment and live with this constant
and live with this constant fear of the future and this threat.
fear of the future and this threat. It's, you know, so it's very hard for me
It's, you know, so it's very hard for me to give any wisdom. I'm sure there's
to give any wisdom. I'm sure there's much more wisdom in Ukraine than than I
much more wisdom in Ukraine than than I can offer. But I mean all I would say is
can offer. But I mean all I would say is I think
I think when you look at the long well the you
when you look at the long well the you know the world I think is with you like
know the world I think is with you like or at least you know the European Europe
or at least you know the European Europe I think most people in Europe are very
I think most people in Europe are very supportive of what is happening and it's
supportive of what is happening and it's I just hope that the Western Europeans
I just hope that the Western Europeans can get their act together and actually
can get their act together and actually you know do what needs to be done to
you know do what needs to be done to hold Russia back and and help you
hold Russia back and and help you Ukraine protect its sovereignty and its
Ukraine protect its sovereignty and its people. But it's
people. But it's I think also if you I don't know may I
I think also if you I don't know may I don't know if this is comforting or not
don't know if this is comforting or not but if you look in the sweep of history
but if you look in the sweep of history I think about my grandfather he he was
I think about my grandfather he he was born at a time where the country that he
born at a time where the country that he was a you know supposed to be a citizen
was a you know supposed to be a citizen of didn't exist and you know he he lived
of didn't exist and you know he he lived through a period where he saw his
through a period where he saw his country reemerge and be independent and
country reemerge and be independent and then be reoccupied and dominated by the
then be reoccupied and dominated by the Soviet Union and he died at a where
Soviet Union and he died at a where Poland was not free and it was you know
Poland was not free and it was you know part of this kind of communist block but
part of this kind of communist block but you know 20 years after he died freedom
you know 20 years after he died freedom you know Poland managed to throw off
you know Poland managed to throw off communism and become free again and you
communism and become free again and you know you you go through these periods of
know you you go through these periods of darkness but I think in the end like
darkness but I think in the end like history tells us that they these are
history tells us that they these are temporary and they they don't last
temporary and they they don't last ultimately and that may not be very
ultimately and that may not be very comforting if you're in the middle of it
comforting if you're in the middle of it and I could imagine you know the idea of
and I could imagine you know the idea of waiting 20 years or something for an
waiting 20 years or something for an ordeal to be over may not fill you with
ordeal to be over may not fill you with much hope. But there's um I think it's
much hope. But there's um I think it's in the great dictators that Charlie
in the great dictators that Charlie Chaplain he sort of says that there's
Chaplain he sort of says that there's this basic fact that all men die. So
this basic fact that all men die. So even tyrants die and eventually you know
even tyrants die and eventually you know the the people perpetrating these crimes
the the people perpetrating these crimes will die and hopefully wiser people will
will die and hopefully wiser people will replace them and and the world will
replace them and and the world will change. But, you know, I just I just,
change. But, you know, I just I just, you know, I I I I have no particular
you know, I I I I have no particular wisdom to share. I've never been through
wisdom to share. I've never been through anything that, you know, like what you
anything that, you know, like what you were going through. And I just I just
were going through. And I just I just wish you, you know, all the very best.
wish you, you know, all the very best. And I hope that things improve. And I
And I hope that things improve. And I hope that through continuing to sort of
hope that through continuing to sort of think about other things perhaps to
think about other things perhaps to think about, you know, science and and
think about, you know, science and and the sort of the the enjoyment and the
the sort of the the enjoyment and the the pleasure that it can bring that it
the pleasure that it can bring that it can bring some sort of distraction and
can bring some sort of distraction and some solace from what must be a very
some solace from what must be a very difficult day today.
Yeah. No, that's a beautiful message actually and we'll hope that he will die
actually and we'll hope that he will die soon, you know, [laughter] like
soon, you know, [laughter] like like you know, but uh the final question
like you know, but uh the final question that I I want to ask you is you know
that I I want to ask you is you know I've always been and I'm sure this the
I've always been and I'm sure this the case with you. I've always been into
case with you. I've always been into this like big questions you know I for
this like big questions you know I for you know as long as I remember I always
you know as long as I remember I always been uh curious about like know like why
been uh curious about like know like why are we here? I don't know like what's
are we here? I don't know like what's the point of all this all the like this
the point of all this all the like this big uh you know like philosoph
big uh you know like philosoph philosophical questions that u uh just
philosophical questions that u uh just uh this they're always you know in the
uh this they're always you know in the back of my mind and uh I
back of my mind and uh I want uh to ask like you know there's um
want uh to ask like you know there's um many things in life that can bring you a
many things in life that can bring you a sense of meaning and purpose you know
sense of meaning and purpose you know for for some it could be like art you
for for some it could be like art you know music writing of like uh what are
know music writing of like uh what are for others like could be science you
for others like could be science you know learn about the universe like
know learn about the universe like learning about something that that you
learning about something that that you know that you're curious about and so uh
know that you're curious about and so uh when you like think about your life and
when you like think about your life and think of all the things you know that
think of all the things you know that that
that you've done that you've contributed like
you've done that you've contributed like to the general public and the like up
to the general public and the like up until now and all the uh like
until now and all the uh like interactions you've had with people and
interactions you've had with people and like your family, what uh you know would
like your family, what uh you know would you say like what gives you the greatest
you say like what gives you the greatest sense of happiness and uh and meaning
sense of happiness and uh and meaning even you know if or it could be you know
even you know if or it could be you know several sources of meaning you don't
several sources of meaning you don't have to pick one but I'd love to I'd
have to pick one but I'd love to I'd love to you know to hear like what yeah
love to you know to hear like what yeah what what life means to you know
what what life means to you know personally [laughter]
personally [laughter] wow only the easy questions today
wow only the easy questions today um I mean as I think I mean I've been
um I mean as I think I mean I've been very lucky in my career that I've been
very lucky in my career that I've been able to pursue things that I'm
able to pursue things that I'm interested in and
interested in and I I wouldn't necessarily say that I've
I I wouldn't necessarily say that I've particularly achieved terri a huge
particularly achieved terri a huge amount really in the grand scheme of
amount really in the grand scheme of things like you know I'm quite proud of
things like you know I'm quite proud of some of the I'm quite proud of the some
some of the I'm quite proud of the some of the books well particularly the first
of the books well particularly the first book I'm very I'm quite proud of that I
book I'm very I'm quite proud of that I think it's quite good the second book's
think it's quite good the second book's good as well but I think the first
good as well but I think the first book's better so that gives me some
book's better so that gives me some satisfaction and it's nice when you hear
satisfaction and it's nice when you hear from people who've you know taken
from people who've you know taken something positive from what you've done
something positive from what you've done or they've enjoyed something you've
or they've enjoyed something you've done. So that that definitely gives you
done. So that that definitely gives you a sense of hope and and meaning and
a sense of hope and and meaning and optimism and and sort of drives you on
optimism and and sort of drives you on to carry on doing what you're doing. So
to carry on doing what you're doing. So that that's very it's very I feel very
that that's very it's very I feel very fortunate to be able to share my
fortunate to be able to share my enjoyment of science with others and to
enjoyment of science with others and to see their enjoyment in return. That that
see their enjoyment in return. That that gives a real feeling of of pleasure and
gives a real feeling of of pleasure and of of purpose I think. Um but other than
of of purpose I think. Um but other than I think you know the most important
I think you know the most important things in my life really are my
things in my life really are my interactions with like my friends and
interactions with like my friends and family and you know I just had a
family and you know I just had a daughter a month ago and seeing the
daughter a month ago and seeing the effect that she's had on my parents and
effect that she's had on my parents and my partner's parents and our families
my partner's parents and our families and the way it's brought everyone
and the way it's brought everyone together. I think you know fundamentally
together. I think you know fundamentally those are sort of it's those
those are sort of it's those interactions the sort of love you have
interactions the sort of love you have for your family and friends that gives
for your family and friends that gives meaning to life and I think we can find
meaning to life and I think we can find that no matter what's going on in the
that no matter what's going on in the world I hope. Um so yeah but I think
world I hope. Um so yeah but I think it's it's a it's a combination of
it's it's a it's a combination of things. It's that satisfaction from
things. It's that satisfaction from hopefully doing a job that you take some
hopefully doing a job that you take some pleasure from. Um but I don't pretend
pleasure from. Um but I don't pretend that I'm achieving anything particularly
that I'm achieving anything particularly substantial there. It's it's uh but I'm
substantial there. It's it's uh but I'm I'm very fortunate to do something as I
I'm very fortunate to do something as I say that I enjoy but I think ultimately
say that I enjoy but I think ultimately it comes down to it. It's you know your
it comes down to it. It's you know your relationships with others that really
relationships with others that really matter
and I love I guess it was Kagan who said that like if you're in love you know you
that like if you're in love you know you want to tell the world and he then goes
want to tell the world and he then goes on and like say to say that if you're in
on and like say to say that if you're in love with science you know you obviously
love with science you know you obviously want to tell tell every everyone about
want to tell tell every everyone about it. So, you know, I feel like that's
it. So, you know, I feel like that's that that's been like the case for you.
that that's been like the case for you. Yeah. Like because you're not just in
Yeah. Like because you're not just in passionate about doing it, but uh yeah,
passionate about doing it, but uh yeah, you want to share it with others, you
you want to share it with others, you know, that sense of excitement and
know, that sense of excitement and wonder and uh it's u yeah it's well,
wonder and uh it's u yeah it's well, it's been so much fun to to get to talk
it's been so much fun to to get to talk to you. You know, I I look forward to it
to you. You know, I I look forward to it for like quite a long time and but very
for like quite a long time and but very glad it's finally worked out and yeah.
glad it's finally worked out and yeah. Yeah. Well, it's a real pleasure to talk
Yeah. Well, it's a real pleasure to talk to you and and best of luck with all
to you and and best of luck with all your future projects.
your future projects. Yeah. Yeah. And uh I I hope that you
Yeah. Yeah. And uh I I hope that you know um
know um hopefully that u once this war is over
hopefully that u once this war is over then I could visit your country. No,
then I could visit your country. No, I've never been to England and yeah, we
I've never been to England and yeah, we could uh uh we could meet and have a
could uh uh we could meet and have a beer and talk about
beer and talk about Absolutely. Well, yeah, let me know if
Absolutely. Well, yeah, let me know if you ever if you ever make it to the UK.
you ever if you ever make it to the UK. We'll definitely let's definitely grab a
We'll definitely let's definitely grab a beer and I'll show you around Cambridge
beer and I'll show you around Cambridge and uh I hope to come to your country
and uh I hope to come to your country too at some point in the future.
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