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Dave Smith: Debating Douglas Murray_ the “Woke Right” Narrative_ and the Moment He Found God

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Dave, I'm really glad to see you. I know

you've been here before,

but it's nice to have you back. I am an

expert in all things Tucker Carlson.

So,

um I know you've been asked this a

million times, but I I'm coming to this

late. Uh like how do you assess

um the debate that you had with Douglas

Murray? Now, it's been a month. How

long's it been? Something like that.

Something like a month, right? So, few

weeks. Looking back, what was that?

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It's an interesting question. I mean, I

think I think essentially it was what

everyone saw. It was ex it's it's like

my first impression of it. My impression

during it during the first half hour of

the debate I was like

well Douglas just embarrassed himself in

front of the world and you felt that in

real time. Oh yeah yeah yeah. Well I

mean it was you know look it was he was

ridiculous and it was uh it was kind of

strange to witness as it was happening.

I go, "So, you decided to open the

debate by just chastising everyone as

not being as good as you, that the

expert class ought to be the ones

consulted, that you I mean, you know,

you could argue what he exactly he was

saying, but he was clearly saying that

you you guys on podcasts are simply not

qualified to talk about these subjects."

Now, you're saying this on the Joe Rogan

Experience. Of all places to go and

deliver this message, this is the place

guaranteed to turn the entire audience

against you. And of course, I just think

that um I think it's a it's a ridiculous

non-argument that never would have made

sense. But coming off of the COVID

years, the idea that you're going to

convince people

that you ought to kind of

um they they ought to trust your

opinions, they ought to that your class

ought to be trusted was a ridiculous,

you know, attend that class. I mean,

he's not I know Douglas and I think that

um always gotten along with him and I

think that he's clever, but he's clever

in a boarding school way. He went to

boarding school um as I did and you

instantly recognize it in the way that

he debates which is by dropping

references that suggest deep air

addition that doesn't actually exist. I

think he's clever. He's got a kind of

bullshitty boarding school vibe to him.

Again, that I recognize that I have

sometimes, so I'm not, you know, not

trying to be holier than now, but like

the idea that he's an expert is absurd.

He's a journalist like the rest of us

who's been taken on PR tours in various

countries by their governments trying to

win his support. Got it. I've done that,

too. Um, but he's hardly an expert on

anything. Well, what? Well, also it

doesn't look all of this in so the the

analogy that I I've used about it is

that like uh if you had two UFC fighters

that are going to fight, so they've

signed the contract, they've done their

training camps, they show up to Madison

Square Garden, they both get in the

octagon and like one of them puts up his

hands and then the other one puts his

hands down and goes, "You know, I'm such

a better fighter than you."

And this is ridiculous that me and you

are even fighting. It's like okay but we

are but we are we're here for it right

we both accepted we're both here. So if

you are such a better fighter if you

have trained so much more if you have

all these advantages against me well

then you can't just you have to

demonstrate that take on the argument

you should be able to then destroy me.

And so he weirdly opened with this thing

where he was going to turn everybody

off, turn everyone against it because

the style is Even if you're,

and I've had lots of people who are

pro-Israel reach out to me since then

and be like, "Listen, I disagree with

you on the issue, but that was

ridiculous the way he attempted to

argue." Um, because weirdly, number one,

you're turning everyone against you. And

number two, you're just setting the bar

so much higher for yourself. Because now

once we start actually getting into the

debate, you've already explained that

you should be dominating me on every

facet of this and yet you're not. And

yet actually when it comes down to it,

you have no answer for the points that

I'm making. And that was the theme of of

the entire knowledge either. Yes, that's

right. But no, but there was there were

two points in the debate that actually

stuck out to me the most. Um, and it

wasn't the have you been, which is, you

know, was the funniest thing that

everyone's making that you know, Douglas

will be mocked for eternity for, but you

know, he made his own bed. Um, but the

two points to me that really stuck out

in the debate because this is the way my

mind works is that I'm like, oh, if you

like, give me something g give me

something to challenge me on that will

actually keep me up at night. By the

way, if you were to be like, no, Dave,

you got this completely wrong and you

need to read these three books to

understand why you're missing all this

information. Can I interrupt and say I

knowing you pretty well I think I mean

this I believe I would take a lie

detector test and pass. I believe that

if you read those books and found that

you were wrong that you would admit it.

Oh yeah. And I've done this lots of

times before. I have I have views from a

decade ago that are quite embarrassing.

Uh in heights I was at one I was an

atheist at one point. I was pro-life. I

excuse me. I was pro-choice at one

point. Um I've oh god this I was up for

open borders at one point. I've been

I've had all of those views. had some

really bad views over the years and I've

changed my mind all the time. You think

Douglas would admit if he was wrong?

Well, of course not. I mean, that's

that's obvious. No, but that's kind of

the Look, if you can't if you can get

Iraq, Afghanistan, Syria, Libya,

Ukraine, and COVID wrong and then with

certainty say you're right about the

next one and then also tell also arguing

that the other person should have some

humility. I mean, come on. Like, what is

this? So good. It's just too You

couldn't write if I just scripted this

for you and wrote it on a script, you'd

be like, "Take it down and this is too

ridiculous. No one would believe this."

But regardless of that, so there were

two moments that actually really stood

out to me in the debate. Um were Okay,

so number one was in the Ukraine

portion. Number two was in the the

Israel portion. So in the Ukraine

portion at one point I said to him we

were talking about the um you know what

led up to the war and so he said

something like he goes you know the real

question is why all these countries

wanted to join NATO I mean we didn't

incorporate them in NATO through force

and I was like well yes obviously that's

the argument isn't that we force the

governments willingly wanted to join

NATO. I was like, that's pretty obvious

why you'd want to be sub you have your

defense subsidized and want to have the

most powerful government in the history

of the world guaranteeing your defense.

Sure. And also because they're concerned

about the former Soviet Union, which is

still Russia and Okay. But I was like,

but that wasn't the argument. You know,

the argument is why would we do this?

And so I I was like, let me just give

you two bullet points, right? Two quick

arguments. And the two uh quick points

that I made were number one uh the net

means net memo which of course as you

know well you've talked about this a lot

you talked about this back on your Fox

News show was that uh uh Bill Burns

later director of the CIA. Yes. Yes. The

the CIA director through Joe Biden's

four years who was the CIA director

through this entire war up until Trump

to turn back over but then the

ambassador to Russ in 2008. He was the

ambassador to Russia. He wrote a private

uh cable to Conda Rice. This was not for

the public. This was a private cable

that later the heroic Julian Assange

released. It's the only reason we know

it exists. And he lays out in there that

all this talk about Ukrainian entry to

NATO is going to lead to a war. And he

specifically says that this is the

brightest of all red lines for the

Russians. And if we keep moving forward,

they fear this could result in civil war

and and then they might have to

intervene. In his words, quote, a choice

the Russians do not want to have to

make. So, I was like, "Hey, there's a

pretty compelling piece of evidence."

And then number two, I said, "Uh, uh,

Stro Stlenberg, I always say this name

wrong, but the head of NATO, Stolenberg,

the head of NATO, he said that Vladimir

Putin in late 2001 put in writing, sent

a draft treaty to NATO and said, "If you

just put into writing that you will not

bring Ukraine into NATO, I will not

invade the country." This is the head of

NATO. So, I give him these two points.

Okay, there's I could talk a lot more

about this, but I was like, let's focus

on these two. Seems to me that all the

powerful people involved are admitting

that this war was about Ukrainian entry

into NATO. And his response was, the war

was not about Ukrainian entry into NATO.

It was about Vladimir Putin's desires to

reconstitute the Soviet

Union. And I was like, yeah, but what's

the response? Like, what's the response

to my point? Like, I made a point. You

made nothing. You just made an

assertion. So there was this one where

it's like once you actually get down to

it, once you remove all this like you're

an expert, you're not an expert, you've

never been, what are you watering, what

are the you've got no actual argument

here because you're not an expert

yourself, right? But even that it's like

that again just the way I

work that doesn't do anything for me.

Then you got to have an actual argument

otherwise you're not going to persuade

me. And I think for most of the the

viewers knowledge too and I just refer

back to the boarding school thing. It's

like the whole point of that style in

debating is to create the illusion of

knowledge.

Like you have an escalus quote sort of,

you know what I mean? Or you can cite

the titles of three DH Lawrence novels,

but you haven't read the novels. You

haven't read Escalus. You don't you

don't actually have you don't have an

original thought that's actually yours.

You don't even have the material. You

haven't even you haven't even read the

books. It's just it's a slight of hand.

And uh that's what they teach you in

boarding school. Well, the Okay, so then

the other one, which some people did

pick up on this, but this to me was like

actually the biggest moment of the

debate, I thought. Um, and and it was

sad in a way cuz Douglas Murray is

someone who I have some degree of

respect for as a smart person. It was

kind of sad that he was reduced to this,

but so he made the argument. He said um

first off he was dishonest where he and

I didn't call him I know this but I I

let it slide but he goes you know I was

very iffy about the war in Libya. It's

like I've read your columns at the time.

No you warrants. Okay. Anyway,

but he goes I was very iffy about the

war in Libya but the war in Libya was

fought because there was this tremendous

fear that Gaddafi was about to go

genocidal and it was a humanitarian

intervention. And so then I said okay

now they have slave markets in Tripoli.

is humanitarian. But even but forget

even the point that okay, maybe maybe

their argument is they thought he was

going to go genocidal and they didn't

realize it would be so much worse

without him. Like what? But I said,

"Okay, Douglas, so riddle me this then.

If it was a humanitarian intervention,

how come I have fourstar general Wesley

Clark telling me 10 years prior that we

had already made the plans to go

overthrow Gaddafi?" Because he said this

very clearly to Amy Goodman on Democracy

Now. And then I I mentioned that he

later uh actually very recently on on

Pierce Morgan he clarified uh this is

really interesting if people go watch

it. Scott Horton uh who is amazing by

the way his book provoked is the best

book on uh Russia US post collapse of

the Soviet Union relations. His book uh

enough already is the best book that's

been written on the terror wars. So

Scott Horton is debating Wesley Clark on

Pierce Morgan. And this gets brought up,

you know, the fact that you said in 2001

you had already seen in the Pentagon

that we were going to overthrow seven

countries in 5 years. And okay, so he

says he goes, "Well, actually the plans

go back to 1991 and I saw them first

from Paul Wolawitz's office and then

basically the plans got killed and then

they were revived uh by Richard Pearl

and a study paid for by the Israelis."

This was fortar Wesley Clark's comments

on it. So, I brought that up and I go,

"Well, look, you're going to say that

this is a um you know, a humanitarian

intervention, but that seems strange

because the plans to overthrow Gaddafi

were already written many years earlier

and then they had their opportunity and

they did it. I think it was more than

just a humanitarian intervention." And

then his response is this thing about

how Paul Wolfitz's name starts with an

animal and ends Jewish. And it was kind

of funny the way you said it, but then

he just he went be careful what you're

watering there because you can't, you

know, there a lot of people are going to

hate Jews if you just start bringing up

Paul Wolfwitz's name. And I just could

not believe, by the way, the end result

of that is he had no response to what I

was saying. He didn't have a response to

why this Wolfwitz has an identifiably

Jewish name. you're abetting

anti-semitism by bringing it up even

though he's a government official who

helped get us into this war that killed

a million people. Yeah. He's also in

other places talked about how Paul

Wolfwitz is like a hero in the in uh the

Kurds in Iraq consider him a hero

because he was the architect of the war

that overthrew Saddam Hussein. But like

I'm not allowed to mention him because

that which is first of all it's just

beside the point like forget what this

will lead to. What's the truth? That's

that's what matters. So, he's of course

a very pro Kurdish, I would imagine.

Yes. Yes. I'm sure. Yeah. Well, I

actually have been there. Oh, have you?

Yes, I have been there. And uh and I can

say firsthand the most brutal people

I've ever met in my life were Kurds.

Like, actually, I saw it firsthand. So,

I'm not against the Kurds or whatever,

but I I it's just interesting. Everyone

in Washington, no one's ever met a Kurd.

Can't define what a Kurd is, but

everyone reflexively loves the Kurds.

And I' I've never had strong views about

the Kurds, but again, I just want to say

I've seen it in action in Iraq, and I

was shocked by the Kurdish behavior

personally. Yeah. Well, also, you know,

it's uh it was all the people who are,

you know, were were knocking Donald

Trump in his first term when he wanted

to pull out of Syria and they were like,

"What about the Kurds? We can't betray

the Kurds." And then those same people

will tell you what a great President

George HW Bush was, but we can't betray

the Kurds, right? The guy who really

betrayed the Kurds. I mean, told them to

rise up against Saddam Hussein and

overthrow him and then decided, "Ah,

we're going to back off that and just

allowed them allowed them to get

slaughtered, you know, but and look, I

mean, it was just kind of blatant. It's

like I'm presenting an argument and

you're responding with a pure woke

tactic." Exactly. A pure woke tactic to

say, which I, as I mentioned to him, I

go, "But wouldn't this apply to

everything you stand for?" I mean,

everything you stand for about how we

shouldn't have so much Muslim

immigration into the UK. Okay. Well,

someone could take that and that might

lead to a rise in hatred of of Muslim

people. But that's not a

counterargument. That's not an argument.

That's like, well, okay. Well, then

maybe you could say you should also add

in there, I don't mean all Jewish people

are guilty of some conspiracy, but that

first of Jewish and he's not. So, like,

what the hell are you talking about? You

said you're Jewish. So that gets me to I

mean I don't think you've convinced

Douglas that you're Jewish. So um true I

saw that and read the commentary after

and as someone who's always liked

Douglas um and known him for a while. My

first instinct was wow he just destroyed

his career like he's done. Um no smart

person will ever take Douglas seriously

again. And I don't I don't know if he

felt that way but it was clear by a day

or two after he realized he destroyed

his career. And in response, rather than

admitting that and admitting what he'd

done wrong, he attacked you. Really kind

of doubled down in the New York Post. I

want to read this cuz I was offended by

this. Um, he goes, "The whole column is

an attack on you." And I'm quoting,

"Claiming some Jewish

ancestry, Smith has spent the last 18

months since October 7th being very

unfunny

indeed, claiming some Jewish ancestry."

Now, I'm not really sure. Well, I'm just

going to I don't know why that just Oh,

well. So, what do you claim some Jewish

ancestry? I uh my mom and dad are

probably the big ones. Uh but I do I do

claim some Jewish ancestry. Um, but

yeah, it's it's I mean it was so well

first of all I joke which I'm not even

the f cuz everyone made this joke

already about the art, but he says I

haven't been funny and I just Douglas

has never been to one of my comedy shows

so he should come and check it out and

then he could tell me what he thinks. I

think I'm pretty damn funny in my shows

and the audience seems to think so. But

I guess you're Jewish ancestry. You

claim first of all he suggests that

you're like a fake Jew. Yeah. Yeah.

Claiming some Jewish ancestry. It's like

you're hiding behind a cloak of Ursat's

Judaism, which is in a way um you know,

one of the things that I thought was so

interesting about the piece uh was that

and I couldn't imagine, man, I hope I'm

never this person. Um because even now,

right, like there's so there's so many

shots I could take at Douglas, but even

when you ask me about the debate, like

my first instinct is to go like, well,

look, here are the points I made that he

didn't have counters to, cuz I'm about

the argument, you like that's what

actually matters and it's it's tough for

all of us because there is as as you

know well you've talked a lot about this

right but it's like in this kind of show

business news world where we're talking

about events and things that matter but

also there's a camera on us and we're

talking on a microphone and we're we're

public people and so it's kind of

impossible to completely remove your ego

and your own narcissistic tendencies

from that but like you got to keep

reminding yourself like yeah but there's

a war going on like that's what

actually matters. All of this is much

less important than like the actual

policy. So you try to focus on that. But

I could not imagine writing an article

about a debate that I had just been in

where the reaction was so unfavorable

toward me. And in the piece, what you

might notice is he does not take on a

single one of my arguments. He does not

point out something that I got wrong. He

does not say Dave argued this but this

is so clearly a reflection of his lack

of knowledge on this subject because he

didn't account for X Y and Z. It's just

once just like the actual debate. He

would only debate me. He wouldn't debate

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think he did it? I mean, he was

basically It felt to me like he was sent

on a kamicazi

mission. That's the way it looked here.

The guy just flies into your aircraft

carrier, doesn't sink it, but it

destroys his his plane, his career. I

don't get it in a sense. I don't know. I

don't think Douglas Murray destroyed his

career. I think he destroyed his

reputation. And so his reputation

amongst the people, but his career is

actually going to be fine. Much like

Camala Harris's career is actually going

to be fine. And I don't know, you know,

I'm I'm speculating a little bit uh with

this cuz there there really there was

not almost any interaction off the

podcast. Like Douglas Murray showed up

five minutes later we were recording. He

left immediately afterward and me and

Rogan hung out for a so like there's

nothing more that the viewer didn't see

that I saw really hellos and goodbyes.

Um but I think number one of my my

guesses I'm speculating here is that he

just didn't uh wasn't really prepared

for me and it was like oh some a

comedian will be on there and maybe he

came in kind of confident that like

he'll be able to handle me. I've had

that happen a few times in in my career.

I think it's happening less. I can't

imagine he didn't like look into me

before the debate, but maybe that's

possible. But the feeling that I got as

it was going on was kind of okay. I do

you remember you I'm sure you do. You

remember very well when Camala Harris

was running for president. I know that

seems like a long time ago, but that

actually happened which is really crazy.

It's like a dream sequence. Now, it's

not just that Dick Cheney and Liz Cheney

endorsed her, but she started bringing

Liz Cheney out to campaign events and

campaigning with Liz Cheney. Now, if you

were just looking at this on paper,

you'd go, "Okay, what demographic of

voters is this for?" And you'd very

quickly realize that that demographic

doesn't exist. No. Are the leftists?

They still remember her last name as

Cheney. And especially with the the year

that had preceded that, like they're

kind of anti-war again and they're not

really into like the idea of we've got a

Cheney on our side. It's not going to

win you. It's not going to get out your

base. And then on the other side, I

mean, she lost by like 50 points in her

congressional run. I mean, she's it's

not like you're bringing Republicans in.

And so, I think the only thing you could

conclude is that, oh, this isn't

actually for the voters. There's

somebody else who Camala Harris is

talking to here. There's a power source

that may be a little concerned about her

and she's trying to let them know. Don't

worry, I'm good for business. I've got

Liz Cheney right here. That's kind of my

assumption. It seemed to me with the

Douglas Murray thing, he wasn't playing

to the audience. He certainly wasn't

trying to persuade Joe. No, he perhaps

was talking to a different audience,

which will make sure that his career is

just fine going forward. That's the

sense I got. If you want to make people

paranoid and hateful, act like that.

Well, again, look, there two things that

I I really want to make sure I express.

number one with the thing where he's

this this claim some Jewish ancestry

thing which by the way would be I think

if you were to ever do this to say like

a Jewish person who was on your side you

would be like well that's a pretty

anti-semitic thing to do right to like

challenge their Jewishness because they

disagree with a policy but what does

your Jewishness have to do with it

anyway well right that's the whole

point and that you know it does

I think it's basically like this I think

that particularly when it comes to the

Israel stuff, a lot of these guys don't

know what to do with me. Because

typically, as every American who's ever

criticized Israel knows, you get labeled

as being a Jew hater. Oh, you must be

anti-Semitic. That's why you would say

something like that. Like remember that

horrible uh anti-semite Pat Buchanan who

said that the Israel lobby wanted a war

in Iraq? She just hates Jewish people.

Like even though we all know that's

true, when you say it, they go, "You're

an anti-semite." That's like the game

that they play. That's much tougher to

do when you're talking to someone who's

Jewish. And so in a in a sense that ends

up being kind of a shield against the

accusation. And so they want to remove

that shield so that you don't have But

the bottom line is that no one should

have that shield. And I am Jewish. My

mother and father are both Jewish. I am

I think I was 86% Ashkanazi Jew on my

DNA test. I think that's enough. But uh

the point is it shouldn't matter. It

shouldn't matter at all. You should

anybody I'm talking about the behavior

of nations by the way. Nations with

militaries and parliaments, congresses,

like these are countries

and I what does this have to do? I mean

well first of all and this isn't even

the most important point but the

American taxpayer is forced to pay for

this stuff. So, but even if he wasn't,

even if you didn't have to pay for it,

if you're a human being, forget even an

American. If you're a human being, you

have a right to have an opinion on any

issue you want to have an opinion on.

This is what the left did during co. It

was like, wait a second, it seems like

this came, you're telling me it came

from a penglin in a wet market, a fish

market, a mammal sold in a fish market

somehow, you know, was the genesis of

this virus. But there was this level

three bolab like a mile away. Maybe that

was a source and they're like, "Ah, you

hate Asians." It's like, and they

claimed racism, so you couldn't pursue

that line of inquiry. I see people like

Douglas Murray, supposedly on the right,

and there are a lot of others like

Douglas Murray saying the same thing,

like you can't you can't express an

opinion about where your tax dollars go

or about people dying or else you're a

bigot. How is that different, right?

Well, no, it's not. It's the same thing.

It's the same kind of pathetic um tactic

where if you can't if you can't argue

against someone's ideas, you just say,

"Oh, you're a bad person and that's why

you have these ideas to begin with."

It's it's a a very it's a very lowgrade

like social psychology attempt to shame

someone out of having the the views that

they have. Um and yeah, it's exactly

it's it's what the woke did on

everything. It's no matter what it was.

If anytime is a I don't I can't remember

who coined the term but uh is a racist

is anybody winning an argument against a

progressive. Exactly. You know, it's

that's it. And so he's doing the same

thing. But then the other thing which is

is really separate and secondary from

that. But the argument that Douglas

Murray is making is that if I call out

Paul Wolawitz or even, you know, more

broadly speaking, if I call out the

neoonservatives,

um, and how they hijacked American

foreign policy and how they very much

had Israel's interest in mind, which I I

get from reading the neoconservatives. I

don't get this from reading critics of

them. It's from their in their own

words, right? He'll he's saying me

calling that out is fertile ground for

Jew hatred to rise. And it's like, no,

what you're doing is fertile ground.

What you telling me I'm not allowed to

call out the deputy defense secretary

because his last name is Jewish. That's

that's actually what leads to a rise in

people not liking Jews. Couldn't agree

more. And I do think Douglas, though

he's not an expert or a genius, is smart

enough to understand that, but he did it

anyway. Yeah. And I don't know his

motive, but in the moment that I think

made me actually turn it off, I had to

stop watching. Um, but it was most

revealing of all is when he goes after

Daryl Cooper, the historian, really one

of the great historians of the United

States, Daryl Cooper. Um, and doesn't

know his name. Yeah. And but goes after

him personally as like a Nazi or

something. And let me just

parathetically, and I'll shut up after

this, but Dale Cooper is one of the

kindest, most reasonable, most

fundamentally liberal people I know.

anti-Nazi people, you know, a guy who

you could give your routing number to

would never steal money. Yeah. A guy

who, if he had absolute power, would

kill nobody, like a truly decent

Christian man. Basically called him a

monster and didn't even know his name.

And so that suggested to me that he was

like briefed by somebody before, make

sure you get in this Holocaust, which

he's not, Daryl Cooper. Like what is

that? Well, it's also, you know, if

you're if you're smearing people who,

which and Daryl wasn't the only one, but

if you're smearing people whose like

names you don't know and who you admit

you've never listened to any of their

their work, maybe don't put that right

in the middle of an appeal to expertise,

you know, like like maybe don't maybe

have that in a different section than in

the section where you're going, you

really have to know what you're talking

about in order to have an opinion on

these things. And so that didn't that

didn't work out very well. Dude, Daryl

is a is an amazing guy. He is brilliant.

His work is phenomenal. Um I know him

personally and he's like genuinely a

great person. He's a humane man. Yes.

And it's it is something it's a comment

on our time and on our society that the

guy who essentially if you if you

actually consume any of Daryl's work as

I have consumed a lot of it

basically Daryl's whole kind of um his

template the way he operates is he's uh

there's basically only like a couple

rules and like number one is he has to

read everything that's available on the

subject. So he reads everything. The

guy's a machine. His his depth of

knowledge is like second to none. He

just knows everything. And then number

two is whenever you talk about history,

basically his rule is that you have to

understand that everyone involved is a

human being, every one of them was a

three-year-old at one point. So like

totally innocent, like good little boy,

like my three-year-old that I have at

home. And that they grew up in real

circumstances and real things happen to

them. And if you're going to do history,

you have to constantly be doing your

absolute best to put yourself in this

person's shoes and then put yourself in

this person's shoes and then put

yourself on this side of the conflict

and then put yourself on this side of

the conflict. That's basically it. He

It's pure empathy. Like all and actually

um as I've mentioned to you personally

and I've told Daryl this personally, he

is probably the best shot people have at

dradicalizing people in in the worst

form of being radicalized. He's the guy,

listen, for me personally, and I thought

I was pretty well read on the history of

of Israel Palestine. And he has this

this incredibly long series, like a

30-hour series called Fear and Loathing

in the New Jerusalem. And like the thing

is, I knew most of what I knew, not all

of it, but most of what I had read about

with the Israeli Palestine conflict,

like most people, was like starts in

1947, 1948, and then goes up to today.

his series is about it's like from the

1890s until 1947. So he's talking about

the creation of the state from Zionism

being created to the state being created

and going rehearsal to Bengurian. Right.

Right. Exactly. That's that's basically

the the whole, you know, he has a little

bit where he's talking about the pgrams

that preceded, you know, the Zionists,

but that's really the the story. And it

actually made me much more sympathetic

to the Zionists. You know, as somebody

who grew up kind of in that propaganda,

in the pro-Israel propaganda, then

ultimately turned on it and became a

critic of Israel. Listening to his

series, you understand. It just puts you

in the position and you do understand

like, oh, okay, these were real men who

were reacting to the circumstances of

their day. you can kind of understand

why a lot of them wanted to do this. By

the way, it's pretty amazing that they

pulled it off. However you feel about

however you feel about what the

government of Israel is doing, it's

amazing that they did this. And yet,

look, and of course, for the one, this

is why I say it's a comment on our time.

So, there's one guy here who's going

like, "Listen, you got to like really

completely educate yourself on a subject

and then you have to have empathy toward

all sides." And then everyone goes,

"Nazi? That guy's a Nazi." I mean,

that's what it is to be a Nazi in 2025.

It's just so funny. I'm too old for a

lot of this stuff. And so, I thought,

you know, among the many lessons, great

lessons of the Second World War that I I

mean, I grew up marinating in, you

dehumanizing people is bad. Treating

them like treating human beings like

they're not human is bad. And I I still

believe that. I think it's the core of

Christianity. And but it's also just the

core of any civil society, any decent

society. And that's what Daryl is trying

to do. Yeah. And I don't know that I've

ever heard anybody try and take apart

his his, you know, factual analysis.

It's always it always immediately goes

to motive. You're a Nazi. Shut up.

You're a Holocaust den or just claim,

right? Or claiming he said something

that isn't at all what he said. Like he

downplayed the atrocities the No, he

didn't. It's also um but but why why

should Daryl Cooper

um and by the way a number of my

friends, people I really like have been

involved in this like their authority

has been marshaled to destroy Daryl

Cooper and I grieve to see it cuz it's

you know they're paid to do it and it's

so degrading to them and dishonest and

sad. But why? Daryl Cooper's like this

one guy living in the Pacific Northwest.

Why spend all this time and energy to

destroy him? Well, I love uh you said

this um I forget a few years ago. I

can't remember what it was where you

said this, but it was you and I this

really hit home with me. And this isn't

like and you weren't suggesting that

this is like a proof. This isn't like a

like a a irrefutable logical argument.

It's kind of like a guide, but you know,

you said the thing about you could tell

when something's infected because you

touch it and you recoil and you go,

"Something's going on there." Now, what

exactly is it? Now, it's that doesn't

prove what's going on, but look, you

can't. The fact that Daryl's moment on

on your podcast sitting right here where

I'm sitting got such a reaction Yes.

really demonstrates something like

something and and you see that it's

like, oh, you touched on like a third

rail. Oh, hurt dog barks. Yes. Well, and

and in the same way when you uh had

first uh questioned the morality of

dropping nuclear weapons on on cities

and then there's this big freak out over

that and now nobody here has said, "Hey,

the Nazis were the good guys. The Nazis

didn't commit any atrocities." No one's

even downplaying no one even made the

argument that I remain anti-Nazi for the

work for the record. But I'm saying like

no one even made the argument that like

it was 5.9 million, not six, you know,

like there's nothing this this topic

hasn't even been broached. No, but what

what you are attacking is really the

underpinning of the origin story of the

American Empire. Exactly. And that's

what you're not allowed to question

because and you see it the way every

every defender of every war, including

the current one, if you can call it a

war going on in Gaza, I'm not sure war

is exactly the right term to describe

it. destruction of of a captive people.

Um, but every single person who defends

it will always invoke World War II at

one point. Not even arguing that like

not even making an argument that this is

why it was justified in World War II.

Just like we did it in World War II. We

did it in World War II and we're the

good guys. So good guys are allowed to

slaughter entire peoples. You know, it's

like it is the and and look, even if you

even if you accept the official World

War II story as being completely

correct, it's still something that's

used to justify all of these other

indefensible wars. Every war of my

lifetime, and I doubt too many people

really want to defend the ones in

between World War II and when I was

born, you know, like I I don't think

anyone's going like, "Look at Vietnam.

It did such a great such a good thing

that we did that." and those who are

attempting to defend it are pathetic.

But, you know, Iraq and Libya and Syria

and Afghanistan and um even the ones

when I was a little kid, you know,

Serbia, every one of these guys they

always said was Adolf Hitler. Mallich is

Adolf Hitler. Saddam Hussein is Adolf

Hitler. Gaddafi is Adolf Hitler. Noriega

is Adolf Hitler. Every bad guy has

always been It's like they use this

model to justify. You're only ever

allowed to learn the lesson in history

that's like Chamberlain was an appeaser,

appeasing bad. Exactly. Confrontation

good. As if that's as if the lessons of

history are

that aggression is always correct.

Trying to work out a deal is always

wrong. Yes. And that's why I think it's

so important to attack that narrative.

Yeah. And from my perspective, it's like

not even about principle as much as it

is effect. If what we're doing was

working, then I I guess I wouldn't be

interested in, you know, analyzing it so

critically. But it's not working. It

hasn't worked for the West, which I

love. It's where my ancestors are from.

It's where my children live. So, it's

like, I don't know. I think it's fair to

ask like, how did we get here? It's all

falling apart. Why? And maybe the

assumptions were bad. And what are those

assumptions? Well, they're rooted in

that war. As you said, it's just

interesting that anyone would want to

defend that. Like, I don't really I

still don't get the motive. Maybe I

never will. Like, why would you want to

defend any of that? Why would you want

to defend Dresden or Gaza or any things

that America did? By the way, it's not

attacking not it's not attacking Israel.

It's I'm attacking the US government,

which I pay for, which my ancestors

helped build. Like, yeah. Why Why would

you ever want to defend bad things?

Well, it is um you know there there is a

tendency by people who if you're if

you're pulling away like the

underpinnings in someone's entire

worldview, they usually get very

defensive. You're right. You're totally

right. I've been there, by the way. I've

been there. So that I have felt

defensive when I first heard Alex Jones

question 9/11. I was outraged by I was

totally outraged by it. And so I in a in

a reflexive stupid way. Well, I remember

um just because I was like very um on I

was very on board with the Ron Paul

presidential campaigns. This was my like

radicalizing moment was was Ron Paul

running for president and I remember

that you were hosting the uh the event

that he had. I can't remember what it

was called but very well. It was the

Rally for the Republic. The Rally for

the Republic. I should have 2008. I was

the MC of that. Yes. So at the time it

was a really big deal for us that we had

you mcing it and because it was like Ron

Paul was getting blacked out in all the

the you know mainstream media as we used

to call it at the time. Uh, and but we

had Tucker Carlson. We had like one of

the big players in that world hosting

the event and I remember um when you

walked out well you it I saw like an

interview with you where someone was

like hey why did you walk out of that

event and you were like I don't know man

the the saying 911 wasn't inside job

stuff was just a bridge too far for me

and honestly I totally understood that

at the time I was just pissed off at um

Jesse Ventura cuz I was like come on

dude we actually got like a chance here

to make a mark and then you're going to

go you know start spouting out with

these conspiracies He believed it. I

mean, I think Jess, even just a whole

rabbit hole I won't even go down, but I

think I don't know what happened to that

guy. Sure is a very flawed guy. Um, for

sure. We're all flawed people. I'm a

little less judgmental than I used to

be. Um, now that I know the depth of my

own shittiness, but which I think is

important. Yeah. Meditate every day on

your death and your own flaws and you'll

be a happy person with better

perspective. But, um, I I shouldn't have

done that. I don't I don't know why, you

know, was so my views are so different.

But anyway, the point is I understand

what you're saying. Well, it's also that

you you know, it's not even it's not

even necessarily that you would have to

like all these years later be convinced

that he was right. It's just I think

after so many years of seeing how evil

the our government actually can be that

you go like, "Okay, I'm listening. All

right, fine. I I dismissed that out of

hound, but now I'm more or how about the

only question that matters is whether or

not something is true." Yeah.

And another way to put it, a phrase that

I've coined in and make copyright is

facts don't care about your feelings.

That's a good one. You like that?

Someone should really run with that. You

could get a long way. You could get like

a special deal with Facebook on that on

the basis of that. Um but uh but but I

actually agree with I agree with that,

right? And I agree. I don't think you

should hurt people's feelings on

purpose, but I think the the core

question, the only one that matters is

is something true. And I know that you

share that. And that's why and I I hate

to beat up on poor Douglas who's like a

sad a sad character, but he had this

line in here. Oh, this isn't Sorry, I

never go to my notes, but I'm No, I This

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like Simplysafe. So Sam Harris, um, wow,

he doesn't care for you at all. or it

looks like me either, but whatever. I'll

ignore the stuff about me. I'm not even

exactly sure who Sam Harris is, but um a

sad atheist guy, but he describes you as

a pure misinformation artist who lies as

freely as he

breathes. And I just thought as I read

this, you can say, you know, Dave Smith,

I don't know, whatever. But I I feel

like that's the opposite of the truth. I

feel like maybe you lie under duress,

but in general you you are like very

focused on what you think is true. Well,

I mean,

again, I just feel like it's a I I

benefit in a way from us having this

conversation like after co and after

kind of all of these insane things that

Okay, so Sam Harris, what did I get

wrong? Like I don't think that if you're

gonna if you're gonna smear me as I'm

being a misinformation art, which I you

know I'll take that to I should make

t-shirt t-shirts about misinformation

artist. I'll take that. Pure

misinformation. Pure misinformation.

Everything you say is a lie. It's like

breathing to you. Dude, I got I got

called that throughout all of CO and I

was right about everything I was saying.

So keep calling me this. Okay, fine.

Make an argument. What have I said

that's wrong? Why does he Why is he so

mad at you? Oh, he Well, Sam, he's a

rationalist, right? Oh, yeah. Yeah. He's

the guy who uh defended the war in Iraq

and torture and uh fell for the Russia

gate Thought Trump was a

Russian spy, fell for lockdowns and

vaccine mandates and all this stuff. So,

I'll put my misinformation track record

up against Sam Harris's, you know,

whatever. I mean, I know he's got a

meditation app or something like that,

but did you see the Tim Dylan thing the

other day? Oh, so dude, it's so great.

That was like I texted him. I saw that

funny. He Tim Dylan the brilliant

comedian. Think about how Sam Harris is

a meditation app. I didn't even know

that. So by day he's a he's a meditation

guru and by night he's encouraging like

carpet bombing of children. I mean it's

just on it's just too ridiculous. and

you know all you know all of these guys

it's it's sad in a way because they're

it's you just you can't contradict

yourself on what your

entire like purpose was for your entire

career without some people noticing and

that's kind of what's going on with all

these why the emotion so I notice it

even now in our conversation you are

there's a lightness to the way you

describe things um you obviously have

passionate views

But you don't seem emotionally

overroought. Douglas seemed emotionally

overroought. This guy Harris seems

emotionally overroought. They seem very

emotional. What is

that? Well, I mean, I would say that um

kind of ironically, although not really

actually ironic, and this kind of goes

to, you know, the conversation that you

and Brett Weinstein were having the

other day, who I really love Brett. I

think he's he's great. Um, I'm on your

side of that debate. But I think one of

one of the fundamental flaws in atheism

is that it doesn't really exist. Yes.

They think that's the flaw in believing

in God. No, they see they think they

think the flaw in believing in God is

that God really doesn't exist. God does

exist. What doesn't exist are atheists.

There's no such thing. So true. And you

could even get into an like maybe if

there was such thing as atheists, it

would be a good thing to be one. But

there aren't. They don't exist. They all

have their religion. And it's it's

almost it it's almost by definition that

whatever your highest thing is becomes

your religion. Um I don't know if it's

quite by definition. And I suppose it is

it is theoretically possible to be an

atheist, but almost no one ever is. And

so what you're seeing is just that, you

know, I'm attacking their religion and

according to them that makes me guilty

of blasphemy. But it's just so

interesting that they're so brittle

about it. You'd think if you're an

atheist, you'd be like, does it really

matter? I mean, there's no right or

wrong obviously cuz how can the

authority on that? Well, there is no

authority. So it's all just a matter of

preference and in the end you just cease

to exist. And so the stakes are zero. So

what are you so mad about? Like why do

you care? You'd think everyone would be

like, "Well, how I'll take it a step

further. Sam Harris does not believe in

free will. So what is he upset with me

about? I have no choice. I have to be a

misinformation artist. This is what I'm

I'm wired to be a misinformation artist.

Right. So what are you upset with? And

he's not even making the choice to say

that. listen anytime and this was one of

I again I really really like Brett but I

think one of the the areas where he

failed kind of in that uh conversation

with you in that you know very friendly

debate is that he had to say several

times throughout it yes I live as if

what you're saying is correct but I view

things this way so yes I'd much rather

live but if

your if your like thesis involves you

having to engage engage in a

performative contradiction, then

something's not right with your theory.

And so Sam Harris will sit here and say,

"None of us have free will, but I'm

still going to act as if all of us have

free will." You've got a major flaw in

your theory that like this is just too

much. This is this is too f you can't do

that. That's not right. And so yes,

again, with all of them, the the bottom

line, I think, with a lot of these

people like and some have adapted better

than others. I think Brett's one of the

ones who's really adapted well from like

the old academia world to this new

podcast world that we're in now. But I

think the problem with a lot of them

like uh like Sam Harris and and I think

Douglas Murray too is that what they've

worked their entire career on has been

completely rejected and that's a tough

position to be in. Um but it's not

really I mean I spent my whole life in

cable news. It you know obviously is in

terminal decline. And I had all kinds of

views that I argued for passionately

that were totally wrong. I admitted it.

I gained perspective and humility

humility in admitting it. You're just a

human being. Yeah, but that listen, you

that may have happened kind of naturally

for you. I'm just saying when you run it

on scale, very few people are able to do

that. It's not hard. It's it's it's the

only act of liberation that's really

possible in this life is freeing

yourself from like the lies. And the

number one lie is I'm God. Yeah. And

like I'm omnisient or the, you know, was

perfectly wise person, whatever. It's

like, you know, you make mistakes.

You're you're a ridiculous primate. It's

a little fur. Like, just admit it.

There's just there. Look, you got some

things wrong. Yeah. But there's a

difference between that and your entire

foundation being built on hypocrisy and

that hypocrisy being shown. You know,

look, I mean, you can't make this stuff

up, right? Ben

Shapiro built a career opposing identity

politics as a proud Zionist.

Yeah. You listen, feel however you feel

about

Zionism. It's identity politics. Like,

like that is the definition of you could

not find a better example of a politics

built on an identity. And yet you're out

here saying facts don't care about your

feelings. Identity politics is wrong.

And then while you're saying that, your

number one priority, I know, is this

this manifestation of identity politics.

You can only keep that charade going for

so long. No, it's totally true. before

someone sees through it. There's

something in people that the the lowest

part of people that instinctively

accuses others of doing what they're

doing. And I've never really I man I

don't that's the one thing I don't want

to be is a guy who does that but I

remember Bill Crystal who I worked for

for years and really liked and was

grateful to and he was a great boss in

the 90s um and came out against me and

called me a Nazi and all this stuff like

without calling me by the way I called

him and asked him to lunch he refused he

wouldn't go to lunch with me end of our

relationship but one of the criticisms

against me I'll never forget it when I

realized this phenomenon was real was

when he accused me of advocating and I'm

quoting for an ethnostate

Now, I have a lot of flaws. They're all

in display. I've never wanted an

ethnostate. And it's like, wait, one of

us is for an ethnostate, and it's not

me. But you just said that like of all

the possible criticisms. It's just too

unbelievable. I mean, it's like

unbelievable. You're crystal accusing me

of wanting an ethnostate, but you like

you just like you almost like don't even

you can't even respond. You just have to

go like, "Hey." It's like I I didn't say

anything. I was like, "Okay, right."

Yes. You know, I people can't hear

themselves. I mean, you know, when

people get old, they you know, they tell

the same stories and you just, you know,

when you love them, you're indulgent.

But I I just hope that doesn't happen to

me. I hope I don't lose all

self-awareness to the point where I've

got like lunch on my chin and like

accuse other people of doing exactly

what I'm doing. Exactly what I'm doing.

Well, you're going you have lunch on

your chin. Like you, you know. Yeah.

That's you don't want to be there. I

don't want to be that guy. Um, and I

think that there's like look, obviously

like we're we're living through

something, you know, we're probably

living through several things that are

very profound, but one of the most

profound things has been this revolution

in in um information and the technology

and this it's led to this like kind of

mass decentralization of media and where

there's now like there's so many things

and shows and different voices, you

know, we I find people all the time who

have never heard of before. You know,

I'm sure you've had this experience,

too. You'll find someone you'll be like,

"Oh, that guy's actually really smart.

People should know about this guy. How

many followers? 7 million. Oh, he's got

7 million. Oh, he's huge. Like, I just

found some guy who is bigger than anyone

on cable news. And I didn't even know he

existed, you know." And so now it's just

because of this dynamic there aren't you

know as you know the the corporate media

apparatus like big newspapers and big

cable news shows and was very controlled

very controlled the range of allowable

opinion was very narrow it's what uh my

uh my good friend and brilliant

historian Tom Woods uh always called the

uh was it the the 3x6 card of allowable

opinion you know you get this area of

allowable opinion and then that's where

the conversation takes place. That's

been shattered into a million pieces and

now there's voices from all over the

place and some good and some great and

some bad and really bad. But it's just

much harder for people to you know that

control existed so that you don't get

exposed so that you don't get expos so

that you could go like look even the

right-winger John McCain agrees or even

the far-left activist Nancy Pelosi I

mean it's like dude have to

hear Sean Hannity goes the far left

Nancy Pelosi it's like how many leftists

have you actually talked to in your life

how many leftists have you ever read you

think Nancy Pelosi is a far-left it like

really they got her vineyard in Napa.

All these different, you know, these

different tools of corporations are left

and right. But so that's over now. And

now I think it's just much it's much

tougher to keep this charade going. And

it seems to be collapsing so fast. Yes.

Yes. And it's not again, you

could you could be honest about it and

and kind of maintain some of your

respect, but the the truth is that like

look, even when they'll say these

things like if you if you accuse Ben

Shapiro of having dual loyalty, they go,

"Well, that's an anti-semitic trope.

That means you hate the Jews." But then

he'll sit there in his own words and

say, I forget his exact quote, but it

was something like, "My favorite thing

about the United States of America is

that it protects Israel." And so, you're

already saying you have loyalty to both

of these countries. In fact, I'm not so

sure about the one of the loyalties, but

I'm very sure about the other one. And

that is not I'm sorry, that's not a

statement against Jewish people. I'm

Jewish. I love Jewish people. You know,

it's like I I get called a self-hating

Jew on Twitter or whatever. It could not

be further from the truth. I actually

really love Jewish people. There's many

things about Jewish culture that have,

you know, had a huge impact on me, made

me the person I am, made me a better

person uh for their their impact on me.

But this is a foreign government. Like

I'm I'm sorry. That's we're we're

allowed to talk about that if you you

know, I saw Glenn Beck the other day had

uh Douglas Murray on and he wasn't like

Glenn Beck wasn't like mean to me

personally, but which I appreciated. Um,

but he was just going I mean it was just

so ridiculous. But it's like you were

sitting here. We're going to we're

having a conversation about a foreign

government. You started crying on your

show talking about this foreign

government. That's weird. That's

weird. We We should not be doing that.

What the hell is going on here? Like I

don't even think you should cry about

our own government, you know? But if

you're going to cry about one, it should

be ours. And no, but no one would even

think to cry about our own, right? I

mean, like, come on. like let let's have

a real conversation about this and if

you don't especially and by the way this

is not my primary goal. My primary goal

is to tell the truth and to advocate for

what's good for our country. Um but if

you're concerned about like the young

men getting a little bit too radical and

and you know being too obsessed with the

Jews or too against the Jews which I do

think is a legit concern. It definitely

is. You know that's not good for you and

it's it's not good for you. It's not

good for the conflict. It's not good for

the country. I just don't think any of

racial collectivism always leads to bad

places. You don't want to you don't want

to embrace that stuff. But if you're

concerned about that, well then the

first thing you have to do is tell the

truth. You can't keep lying to people

and you can't you can't keep sitting

here and going like, "Oh, no. The

neoconservative." You can't say

neoconservative, right? Wasn't that Mark

uh Levin? Didn't he uh just say if the

neo concern Mark Levin who's a who I

also know I mean I've been in right-wing

world my whole life I know everybody I

work with Mark always got along with

Mark always been nice to me but yeah he

just accused Trump the Trump

administration of

anti-semitism for calling someone a

neocon well what he what he did was he

accused Steve Witoff of anti-semitism

right and I just want to say I think

Steve Wickoff is if there's anyone who

is you know has the hand of odd on him.

It seems to me, I sort of overstate it,

but I feel that way. It's Wickoff who's

like a thoroughly decent man and who was

running around the world trying to bring

peace. And also, by the way, nations who

single-handedly saved 20 Jewish

hostages. Well, exactly. I mean, I don't

know if they were all Jewish. I think

most of them were. I think almost all of

them were, but I think they got 20

hostages released in the phase one of

the ceasefire that he worked out. Then

Israel violated the ceasefire and so

they didn't get the other hostages back,

although thankfully the the American was

just released. But this guy, Wickoff,

has actually done more to help those

hostages. So, here's what I mean, here's

what he said. I actually wrote this down

cuz I was I was really bothered by it.

Um, this is Levin on Twitter, Mark

Levin, who works at Fox, which is like

basically seems to have turned his

programming over to advocating for a war

with Iran. Um, neocon is a pjorative for

Jew. Unbelievable. And this is in

response to Wickoff saying, quote, "The

neocon element believes that war is the

only way to solve things." So you have

Mark Levin calling Steve Witoff an

anti-semite. Right. Right. And again,

we've reached Pete Crate. I mean, I

think Wickoff is Jewish. Right. Again,

but it's I I don't even know, but again,

it shouldn't matter. It shouldn't really

matter. It doesn't matter. He's American

and he's on the side of peace and so I'm

for that guy. Um, but you know the crazy

thing, so I also I I at one point in the

debate with Douglas Murray, I said

something about the neoconservatives and

he went, "Ah, the n-word, you know,

the," you know, making a play on the

n-word or whatever. And it's it's

interesting. I mean, Doug Murray wrote

the book called Neoconservatism, Why We

Need It. It was his book. And so what

happened was for people who don't like

know you know a lot about this it's

there there was a this was their term

neoonservative was not a porative term

until the neoonservatives got control of

our foreign policy and ruined everything

and then it became a term that we'll

we'll call every war hawk we'll be like

oh another neocon now a lot of times we

will use the term when strictly speaking

this person may not have been a

self-identified neoconservative it's

just become a pard a porative for

someone trying to get us into stupid

war. But the neoconservatives

themselves, the original group, this was

their name for themselves. And you,

right, you were there. You worked

alongside them. I worked for them. I

worked for Bill Crystal for 5 and a half

years. I was a neocon. Yes. It wasn't

in. And they had no Episcopalian neocon.

But look, they had no problem using the

term until everybody started to hate

them. And then they went, you can't call

us this. But it's like, no, you guys,

like this was your own term that you

used for yourself. You can read their

own documents and the project for a new

American century. You read the clean

break memo. They laid out what they

wanted their foreign policy to be. I

mean, literally, right? Wasn't it um oh

god, I can't remember whose quote it

was. I know that um a bunch of them

loved sharing it, but what is it that

every 10 years we got to throw a small

puny little country up against the wall

and show them who's boss? This was their

foreign policy. We need multiple

theaters of war in the Middle East in

order to ensure the new century is an

American century. So immoral and

disgusting. Yes. And also that and look

as anybody can read, I think we talked

about this last time I was on, but

anybody can read for themselves the

clean break memo. It was written by

Richard Pearl and David Worms to

Benjamin Netanyahu that was like, "Look,

here is our plan." And the break was

from the peace process. The break was

from Oslo. And they go, "Look, here's

the plan." And you know how Yeetszak

Rabin and all these liberal uh Jews are

saying we have to make peace with the

Palestinians so that we can then make

peace with the broader Arab world? Well,

no. We got a new plan. We're going to

break with all of that. We're not doing

this land swap thing. We're not giving

the Palestinians a state. What we'll do

is we'll have America overthrow all of

these other governments. That way you

never have to make peace with the

Palestinians and you can just enjoy

domination over the region. And I from

my reading of it, it does seem to me

that a lot of them believed it. You

know, I think a lot of them hubris and

you know, yeah. Yeah. We overthrow

Saddam Hussein, this will democracy will

sweep the region, then we'll overthrow

Gaddafi, then we'll overthrow the

Mullers in Iran, and then the region

will be way better. Except every time

they actually did it, it resulted in

nothing but disaster, which really could

have been very easily predicted and was

predicted by wiser people than the

neocons. But all these years later, you

either have to like apologize for your

role in this catastrophe or defend your

role in this catastrophe and talk about

how you still really believe it was the

right thing to do. But you can't sit

here and say you're not an expert and

you're a Jew hater if you say the word

neoconservative. That's not an

appropriate response. But if if Mark

Levin is calling the Trump

administration anti-semitic, Steve

Wickoff,

we're at the end of something and the

beginning of something new. I mean,

that's right. Right. I mean, I that's so

I almost called Mark when I saw it cuz I

I really I know him, but I really love

Steve Wickoff and I think his decency I

don't agree with him on everything at

all, but his decency is just palpable. I

mean, it just comes through. his concern

for people, his reasonableness, uh, is

just so obvious and the effects of what

he's done have been so great. Great for

America, great for the world. So, I

almost I was so offended and then I

thought, I'm not going to solve anything

by calling Mark Levin and scolding him,

probably scream at

me. But, but I did think like he's not

stupid. If you're saying if you're

calling Steve Wickoff an anti-semite on

Twitter, like you know you're losing,

right? Is that what that is? And it's

such a um you know in the what's what's

weird is that at the same time because I

know all of these these people will

they'll be lecturing me about how I

don't understand like the gravity of

anti-semitism and it's like no actually

I kind of do and I would never just

throw the accusation around like that.

I'm very hesitant to ever call any

person a bigot or a Jew hater or or

racist or any of these things because

it's like you're you're intentionally

trying to to dehumanize them on the

accusation that they're dehumanizing

others. Scaring the crap out of people.

I'm getting texts from people I really

love personally who are very very, you

know, who aren't paying a lot of

attention. and they just hear that

there's anti-semitism and I'm part of it

and hurts their feelings and they're

confused and upset and it's like it it

has such a divisive effect. Yeah. Like

for real and it's I'm a little bit

concerned. Okay, so it's time for an

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and you'll be happy you did it. Yeah, I

mean, I'm I'm concerned about all of it.

Um, none of it's particularly good. But

there's also something which is it's

interesting to me as somebody who is uh

I am not a conservative. I mean, I'm a

bit of a right-winger, but I'm not a

conservative. Um, I'm kind of a radical

libertarian, and I kind of, you know, if

Tom Tillis is what a conservative is,

then I'm not Yeah. Right. I mean, I

mean, there are some, as a libertarian,

like there certainly are some things

that I think ought be conserved, you

know, like I I think like the Bill of

Rights and the and our traditions and I

think Christianity. I think there's a

lot of things that like should be

conserved, but it's so bizarre to me to

that now that I'm at this level where

it's like I'm I'm talking or not talking

to but being lectured to by like the

leaders of Conservatism, Inc. and I have

to explain to them that like I don't

believe in moral relativism. Like I like

as if this is like a new thing for them

to wrap their head around. And you've

gotten calls from Khan, Inc. trying to

bring you into line. I've I've gotten

for the first time in my career really

I've gotten a few of the calls. Um but I

mean it's it's I'm too far gone for

them. You know if I if you were going to

get me to sell out you would have had to

get me a while ago. You just shouldn't

have let me too late. Well it is I

remember so when I this is like I want

to say like 20 2014 2015 it was

somewhere in there. um where I start the

first time I ever got on television, the

first person who ever put me on TV was

Kennedy. Um who I just adore and will

for the rest of my days. Sweet girl.

Just like one of the sweetest, kindest,

really funny, really smart, weirdly

smart, but like when I say weirdly

smart, I I mean weirdly smart, like

knows about stuff that no one should

know about and then has like a lot of

information about it. But she's a

wonderful person. So she was a she put

me on Fox uh business and then um Greg

Gutfeld and Tom Shaloo who was hosting

Red Eye at the time, they started using

me on their Fox News shows and so it was

like the first time in my career I'd

like started getting on TV and I

remember a few people at Fox had told me

that they were like hey there's uh like

some people in management are like

interested in you like they're they're

taking you know some interest in you.

Um, and then it was kind of explained to

me, not like ever directly, but it was

like, you know,

you're you're a little out there for Fox

News. And I remember at the time I was

broke. I mean, dead broke only on just

to be I put a finer point on that. What

do they mean? Not in your personal life.

Your personal life more button down than

most people who are Well, at the time it

wasn't. This is before I was married and

had kids and stuff, but that's not what

they care about. They don't care. I

found out pretty quickly uh by just

doing shows at Fox News and then going

to the bar afterward with some of the

people there, you're like, "Oh,

Conservatism, Inc. is not exactly what

you thought." They're actually pretty

liberal uh when it comes down to the bar

hang after the show, I would say. But

but it was, you know, I was a Ron Paul

guy and and I was I was younger, so I

was a a more you know, you know, Ron

Paul was a country doctor wearing a suit

and tie. I was like a kid from Brooklyn

who was like, "You're all a bunch of

killers." You know, like this is all

the foreign policy stuff. It

was all the foreign policy stuff as it

always is. As it's that's always what

it's really all about. Um, and I don't

say that cuz I want it to be the case.

It's just the fact that that's always

really what it's all about. Took me 40

years to figure this out. But yes,

that's right. You're correct. By the

way, all these uh all of these even

debates today, the people on Twitter

talking about the woke right, it just

happens to be that everyone who's

labeled woke right are the ones who are

opposing American wars. And everybody

who's throwing out the accusation all

happen to support them. What's winced?

It's a nonsense term that they're trying

to say. It's it's totally ridiculous.

But but let me just uh on the Fox News

thing. So I remember then and this is I

was broke. I mean like broke like where

they're like hey let's go grab a beer

after the show. I'm like, "All right,

are you buying? Cuz I can't cuz if not,

like, let's go grab a six-pack at the

store and go back to my apartment and

cuz like I just had no money." And I

would have at the time when they said

they were like, "Look, they're thinking

about you for one of these

contributorships, you know, it was

whatever it is, it may give you like 100

grand a year or something like that if

you get one." It would have been like

life-changing for me. Life-changing. And

I remember consciously at the time

thinking, you know, at a time when I'm

making 25 grand a year, thinking, man,

maybe I just don't talk about the

foreign policy stuff. Maybe I just do

that. And then even in the moment I

thought about it, just being like, nah,

Ron Paul's my hero. My hero are the

people who tell the truth. Yes. So like,

I'm just not going to. But so if I

didn't if I didn't sell out then,

the idea that I'm going to sell out now

when I'm doing really well, it's like

no, that's ridiculous. Like no, you know

what I'm saying? Like it's like that's

that's insane. It was just funny that I

think that um that Murray thought he was

administering the kill shot. I think

that's what it was supposed to be. But

the opposite happened. It's like I I and

not to brag, I knew this as I was

watching it. I was like, Dave is about

to become way more famous, but not just

famous, more authoritative, more

respected, more closely listened to than

ever before. Has that been your

experience? Yeah. Yeah. I mean, it's

it's essentially just done nothing

except make me bigger, you know. And

were you Did you pay Douglas to do that?

I did not. I don't have that type of

money. The fight on purpose. I don't I

wish I had that. I'm doing okay. I don't

have money like that. I don't have buy

off Douglas Murray uh money. I think

he's I don't think it would take too

much. Well, he's it it's not just, you

know, one of the things that was

interesting is that it's not just So,

there was the debate. There was the

reaction to the debate, but then what

was really interesting is that then

there was the reaction to just because

it became such a big thing, it ended up

coming up on Rogan's podcast with other

guests like later on and they're all

just kind of making fun of of Douglas

and how ridiculous he was cuz he was

ridiculous. And then it's almost like

you see the realization set in with

those people that oh Joe was what

what essentially happened here, right?

And this is I think for almost everyone

to see is that I've been debating all

these guys on Israel Palestine and I've

been beating all these guys in these

debates and I'm I'm not saying I'm

beating I'm just saying like the

reaction the Oxford style voting is that

I I win dominantly and then Douglas

Murray was almost brought in as the the

boss dad's here right like this is the I

mean Ben Shapiro is not going to do it

he's not going to come debate me and so

who is it who's the best guy to come do

well here's Douglas Murray the guy who's

just known for his pros and his rhetoric

and how good he is at debating. I mean,

this is what he's known for. And then he

came in and couldn't lay a land a blow.

He couldn't take on one argument. He had

to just be resorted to like it. It was

like you were debating an anti-racist

college professor on what who's just

going to tell you the whole time that

I'm not even allowed to have this

opinion. It was just that. And so then

what do you think the response to that

was? Here's here you have Joe Rogan who

has got some of these guys on his show

who clearly are making a care. goes,

"All right, yeah, this is a pretty good

argument that this guy's making." And he

brought, you know, as much as Douglas

was complaining in his his op-eds after

the fact that it's so unfair that I

couldn't just go on alone. I had to go

on with this guy who doesn't know what

he's talking about. It's like, yeah, but

this was your opportunity, man. You

could have blown me out of the water and

then had Rogan being like, "Ah,

Maybe I should have more experts on.

like maybe I've got this comedian guy

who I think's making really good points,

but then this guy just came in and like

totally took him on and but he was

unwilling or unable to do that. And so

that was the next freak out is they

realize that like oh Joe just got pushed

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YouTube Transcript:Dave Smith: Debating Douglas Murray_ the “Woke Right” Narrative_ and the Moment He Found God

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Dave Smith: Debating Douglas Murray_ the “Woke Right” Narrative_ and the Moment He Found God