YouTube Transcript:
Dave Smith: Debating Douglas Murray_ the “Woke Right” Narrative_ and the Moment He Found God

Dave, I'm really glad to see you. I know
you've been here before,
but it's nice to have you back. I am an
expert in all things Tucker Carlson.
So,
um I know you've been asked this a
million times, but I I'm coming to this
late. Uh like how do you assess
um the debate that you had with Douglas
Murray? Now, it's been a month. How
long's it been? Something like that.
Something like a month, right? So, few
weeks. Looking back, what was that?
[Music]
[Applause]
[Music]
[Music]
[Applause]
[Music]
It's an interesting question. I mean, I
think I think essentially it was what
everyone saw. It was ex it's it's like
my first impression of it. My impression
during it during the first half hour of
the debate I was like
well Douglas just embarrassed himself in
front of the world and you felt that in
real time. Oh yeah yeah yeah. Well I
mean it was you know look it was he was
ridiculous and it was uh it was kind of
strange to witness as it was happening.
I go, "So, you decided to open the
debate by just chastising everyone as
not being as good as you, that the
expert class ought to be the ones
consulted, that you I mean, you know,
you could argue what he exactly he was
saying, but he was clearly saying that
you you guys on podcasts are simply not
qualified to talk about these subjects."
Now, you're saying this on the Joe Rogan
Experience. Of all places to go and
deliver this message, this is the place
guaranteed to turn the entire audience
against you. And of course, I just think
that um I think it's a it's a ridiculous
non-argument that never would have made
sense. But coming off of the COVID
years, the idea that you're going to
convince people
that you ought to kind of
um they they ought to trust your
opinions, they ought to that your class
ought to be trusted was a ridiculous,
you know, attend that class. I mean,
he's not I know Douglas and I think that
um always gotten along with him and I
think that he's clever, but he's clever
in a boarding school way. He went to
boarding school um as I did and you
instantly recognize it in the way that
he debates which is by dropping
references that suggest deep air
addition that doesn't actually exist. I
think he's clever. He's got a kind of
bullshitty boarding school vibe to him.
Again, that I recognize that I have
sometimes, so I'm not, you know, not
trying to be holier than now, but like
the idea that he's an expert is absurd.
He's a journalist like the rest of us
who's been taken on PR tours in various
countries by their governments trying to
win his support. Got it. I've done that,
too. Um, but he's hardly an expert on
anything. Well, what? Well, also it
doesn't look all of this in so the the
analogy that I I've used about it is
that like uh if you had two UFC fighters
that are going to fight, so they've
signed the contract, they've done their
training camps, they show up to Madison
Square Garden, they both get in the
octagon and like one of them puts up his
hands and then the other one puts his
hands down and goes, "You know, I'm such
a better fighter than you."
And this is ridiculous that me and you
are even fighting. It's like okay but we
are but we are we're here for it right
we both accepted we're both here. So if
you are such a better fighter if you
have trained so much more if you have
all these advantages against me well
then you can't just you have to
demonstrate that take on the argument
you should be able to then destroy me.
And so he weirdly opened with this thing
where he was going to turn everybody
off, turn everyone against it because
the style is Even if you're,
and I've had lots of people who are
pro-Israel reach out to me since then
and be like, "Listen, I disagree with
you on the issue, but that was
ridiculous the way he attempted to
argue." Um, because weirdly, number one,
you're turning everyone against you. And
number two, you're just setting the bar
so much higher for yourself. Because now
once we start actually getting into the
debate, you've already explained that
you should be dominating me on every
facet of this and yet you're not. And
yet actually when it comes down to it,
you have no answer for the points that
I'm making. And that was the theme of of
the entire knowledge either. Yes, that's
right. But no, but there was there were
two points in the debate that actually
stuck out to me the most. Um, and it
wasn't the have you been, which is, you
know, was the funniest thing that
everyone's making that you know, Douglas
will be mocked for eternity for, but you
know, he made his own bed. Um, but the
two points to me that really stuck out
in the debate because this is the way my
mind works is that I'm like, oh, if you
like, give me something g give me
something to challenge me on that will
actually keep me up at night. By the
way, if you were to be like, no, Dave,
you got this completely wrong and you
need to read these three books to
understand why you're missing all this
information. Can I interrupt and say I
knowing you pretty well I think I mean
this I believe I would take a lie
detector test and pass. I believe that
if you read those books and found that
you were wrong that you would admit it.
Oh yeah. And I've done this lots of
times before. I have I have views from a
decade ago that are quite embarrassing.
Uh in heights I was at one I was an
atheist at one point. I was pro-life. I
excuse me. I was pro-choice at one
point. Um I've oh god this I was up for
open borders at one point. I've been
I've had all of those views. had some
really bad views over the years and I've
changed my mind all the time. You think
Douglas would admit if he was wrong?
Well, of course not. I mean, that's
that's obvious. No, but that's kind of
the Look, if you can't if you can get
Iraq, Afghanistan, Syria, Libya,
Ukraine, and COVID wrong and then with
certainty say you're right about the
next one and then also tell also arguing
that the other person should have some
humility. I mean, come on. Like, what is
this? So good. It's just too You
couldn't write if I just scripted this
for you and wrote it on a script, you'd
be like, "Take it down and this is too
ridiculous. No one would believe this."
But regardless of that, so there were
two moments that actually really stood
out to me in the debate. Um were Okay,
so number one was in the Ukraine
portion. Number two was in the the
Israel portion. So in the Ukraine
portion at one point I said to him we
were talking about the um you know what
led up to the war and so he said
something like he goes you know the real
question is why all these countries
wanted to join NATO I mean we didn't
incorporate them in NATO through force
and I was like well yes obviously that's
the argument isn't that we force the
governments willingly wanted to join
NATO. I was like, that's pretty obvious
why you'd want to be sub you have your
defense subsidized and want to have the
most powerful government in the history
of the world guaranteeing your defense.
Sure. And also because they're concerned
about the former Soviet Union, which is
still Russia and Okay. But I was like,
but that wasn't the argument. You know,
the argument is why would we do this?
And so I I was like, let me just give
you two bullet points, right? Two quick
arguments. And the two uh quick points
that I made were number one uh the net
means net memo which of course as you
know well you've talked about this a lot
you talked about this back on your Fox
News show was that uh uh Bill Burns
later director of the CIA. Yes. Yes. The
the CIA director through Joe Biden's
four years who was the CIA director
through this entire war up until Trump
to turn back over but then the
ambassador to Russ in 2008. He was the
ambassador to Russia. He wrote a private
uh cable to Conda Rice. This was not for
the public. This was a private cable
that later the heroic Julian Assange
released. It's the only reason we know
it exists. And he lays out in there that
all this talk about Ukrainian entry to
NATO is going to lead to a war. And he
specifically says that this is the
brightest of all red lines for the
Russians. And if we keep moving forward,
they fear this could result in civil war
and and then they might have to
intervene. In his words, quote, a choice
the Russians do not want to have to
make. So, I was like, "Hey, there's a
pretty compelling piece of evidence."
And then number two, I said, "Uh, uh,
Stro Stlenberg, I always say this name
wrong, but the head of NATO, Stolenberg,
the head of NATO, he said that Vladimir
Putin in late 2001 put in writing, sent
a draft treaty to NATO and said, "If you
just put into writing that you will not
bring Ukraine into NATO, I will not
invade the country." This is the head of
NATO. So, I give him these two points.
Okay, there's I could talk a lot more
about this, but I was like, let's focus
on these two. Seems to me that all the
powerful people involved are admitting
that this war was about Ukrainian entry
into NATO. And his response was, the war
was not about Ukrainian entry into NATO.
It was about Vladimir Putin's desires to
reconstitute the Soviet
Union. And I was like, yeah, but what's
the response? Like, what's the response
to my point? Like, I made a point. You
made nothing. You just made an
assertion. So there was this one where
it's like once you actually get down to
it, once you remove all this like you're
an expert, you're not an expert, you've
never been, what are you watering, what
are the you've got no actual argument
here because you're not an expert
yourself, right? But even that it's like
that again just the way I
work that doesn't do anything for me.
Then you got to have an actual argument
otherwise you're not going to persuade
me. And I think for most of the the
viewers knowledge too and I just refer
back to the boarding school thing. It's
like the whole point of that style in
debating is to create the illusion of
knowledge.
Like you have an escalus quote sort of,
you know what I mean? Or you can cite
the titles of three DH Lawrence novels,
but you haven't read the novels. You
haven't read Escalus. You don't you
don't actually have you don't have an
original thought that's actually yours.
You don't even have the material. You
haven't even you haven't even read the
books. It's just it's a slight of hand.
And uh that's what they teach you in
boarding school. Well, the Okay, so then
the other one, which some people did
pick up on this, but this to me was like
actually the biggest moment of the
debate, I thought. Um, and and it was
sad in a way cuz Douglas Murray is
someone who I have some degree of
respect for as a smart person. It was
kind of sad that he was reduced to this,
but so he made the argument. He said um
first off he was dishonest where he and
I didn't call him I know this but I I
let it slide but he goes you know I was
very iffy about the war in Libya. It's
like I've read your columns at the time.
No you warrants. Okay. Anyway,
but he goes I was very iffy about the
war in Libya but the war in Libya was
fought because there was this tremendous
fear that Gaddafi was about to go
genocidal and it was a humanitarian
intervention. And so then I said okay
now they have slave markets in Tripoli.
is humanitarian. But even but forget
even the point that okay, maybe maybe
their argument is they thought he was
going to go genocidal and they didn't
realize it would be so much worse
without him. Like what? But I said,
"Okay, Douglas, so riddle me this then.
If it was a humanitarian intervention,
how come I have fourstar general Wesley
Clark telling me 10 years prior that we
had already made the plans to go
overthrow Gaddafi?" Because he said this
very clearly to Amy Goodman on Democracy
Now. And then I I mentioned that he
later uh actually very recently on on
Pierce Morgan he clarified uh this is
really interesting if people go watch
it. Scott Horton uh who is amazing by
the way his book provoked is the best
book on uh Russia US post collapse of
the Soviet Union relations. His book uh
enough already is the best book that's
been written on the terror wars. So
Scott Horton is debating Wesley Clark on
Pierce Morgan. And this gets brought up,
you know, the fact that you said in 2001
you had already seen in the Pentagon
that we were going to overthrow seven
countries in 5 years. And okay, so he
says he goes, "Well, actually the plans
go back to 1991 and I saw them first
from Paul Wolawitz's office and then
basically the plans got killed and then
they were revived uh by Richard Pearl
and a study paid for by the Israelis."
This was fortar Wesley Clark's comments
on it. So, I brought that up and I go,
"Well, look, you're going to say that
this is a um you know, a humanitarian
intervention, but that seems strange
because the plans to overthrow Gaddafi
were already written many years earlier
and then they had their opportunity and
they did it. I think it was more than
just a humanitarian intervention." And
then his response is this thing about
how Paul Wolfitz's name starts with an
animal and ends Jewish. And it was kind
of funny the way you said it, but then
he just he went be careful what you're
watering there because you can't, you
know, there a lot of people are going to
hate Jews if you just start bringing up
Paul Wolfwitz's name. And I just could
not believe, by the way, the end result
of that is he had no response to what I
was saying. He didn't have a response to
why this Wolfwitz has an identifiably
Jewish name. you're abetting
anti-semitism by bringing it up even
though he's a government official who
helped get us into this war that killed
a million people. Yeah. He's also in
other places talked about how Paul
Wolfwitz is like a hero in the in uh the
Kurds in Iraq consider him a hero
because he was the architect of the war
that overthrew Saddam Hussein. But like
I'm not allowed to mention him because
that which is first of all it's just
beside the point like forget what this
will lead to. What's the truth? That's
that's what matters. So, he's of course
a very pro Kurdish, I would imagine.
Yes. Yes. I'm sure. Yeah. Well, I
actually have been there. Oh, have you?
Yes, I have been there. And uh and I can
say firsthand the most brutal people
I've ever met in my life were Kurds.
Like, actually, I saw it firsthand. So,
I'm not against the Kurds or whatever,
but I I it's just interesting. Everyone
in Washington, no one's ever met a Kurd.
Can't define what a Kurd is, but
everyone reflexively loves the Kurds.
And I' I've never had strong views about
the Kurds, but again, I just want to say
I've seen it in action in Iraq, and I
was shocked by the Kurdish behavior
personally. Yeah. Well, also, you know,
it's uh it was all the people who are,
you know, were were knocking Donald
Trump in his first term when he wanted
to pull out of Syria and they were like,
"What about the Kurds? We can't betray
the Kurds." And then those same people
will tell you what a great President
George HW Bush was, but we can't betray
the Kurds, right? The guy who really
betrayed the Kurds. I mean, told them to
rise up against Saddam Hussein and
overthrow him and then decided, "Ah,
we're going to back off that and just
allowed them allowed them to get
slaughtered, you know, but and look, I
mean, it was just kind of blatant. It's
like I'm presenting an argument and
you're responding with a pure woke
tactic." Exactly. A pure woke tactic to
say, which I, as I mentioned to him, I
go, "But wouldn't this apply to
everything you stand for?" I mean,
everything you stand for about how we
shouldn't have so much Muslim
immigration into the UK. Okay. Well,
someone could take that and that might
lead to a rise in hatred of of Muslim
people. But that's not a
counterargument. That's not an argument.
That's like, well, okay. Well, then
maybe you could say you should also add
in there, I don't mean all Jewish people
are guilty of some conspiracy, but that
first of Jewish and he's not. So, like,
what the hell are you talking about? You
said you're Jewish. So that gets me to I
mean I don't think you've convinced
Douglas that you're Jewish. So um true I
saw that and read the commentary after
and as someone who's always liked
Douglas um and known him for a while. My
first instinct was wow he just destroyed
his career like he's done. Um no smart
person will ever take Douglas seriously
again. And I don't I don't know if he
felt that way but it was clear by a day
or two after he realized he destroyed
his career. And in response, rather than
admitting that and admitting what he'd
done wrong, he attacked you. Really kind
of doubled down in the New York Post. I
want to read this cuz I was offended by
this. Um, he goes, "The whole column is
an attack on you." And I'm quoting,
"Claiming some Jewish
ancestry, Smith has spent the last 18
months since October 7th being very
unfunny
indeed, claiming some Jewish ancestry."
Now, I'm not really sure. Well, I'm just
going to I don't know why that just Oh,
well. So, what do you claim some Jewish
ancestry? I uh my mom and dad are
probably the big ones. Uh but I do I do
claim some Jewish ancestry. Um, but
yeah, it's it's I mean it was so well
first of all I joke which I'm not even
the f cuz everyone made this joke
already about the art, but he says I
haven't been funny and I just Douglas
has never been to one of my comedy shows
so he should come and check it out and
then he could tell me what he thinks. I
think I'm pretty damn funny in my shows
and the audience seems to think so. But
I guess you're Jewish ancestry. You
claim first of all he suggests that
you're like a fake Jew. Yeah. Yeah.
Claiming some Jewish ancestry. It's like
you're hiding behind a cloak of Ursat's
Judaism, which is in a way um you know,
one of the things that I thought was so
interesting about the piece uh was that
and I couldn't imagine, man, I hope I'm
never this person. Um because even now,
right, like there's so there's so many
shots I could take at Douglas, but even
when you ask me about the debate, like
my first instinct is to go like, well,
look, here are the points I made that he
didn't have counters to, cuz I'm about
the argument, you like that's what
actually matters and it's it's tough for
all of us because there is as as you
know well you've talked a lot about this
right but it's like in this kind of show
business news world where we're talking
about events and things that matter but
also there's a camera on us and we're
talking on a microphone and we're we're
public people and so it's kind of
impossible to completely remove your ego
and your own narcissistic tendencies
from that but like you got to keep
reminding yourself like yeah but there's
a war going on like that's what
actually matters. All of this is much
less important than like the actual
policy. So you try to focus on that. But
I could not imagine writing an article
about a debate that I had just been in
where the reaction was so unfavorable
toward me. And in the piece, what you
might notice is he does not take on a
single one of my arguments. He does not
point out something that I got wrong. He
does not say Dave argued this but this
is so clearly a reflection of his lack
of knowledge on this subject because he
didn't account for X Y and Z. It's just
once just like the actual debate. He
would only debate me. He wouldn't debate
the topic. We're always looking for cool
companies that make products that make
you feel better. And that's how we ran
into Bond Charge. Bon Charge offers a
wide range of products that improve your
physical condition, help you sleep
better, perform better, and center your
mind, recover faster, maintain energy,
etc., etc. They make blue light glasses,
red light therapy, a lot of different
products like this, and they help you
address the trials of modern life
effortlessly and naturally. Now, one of
the things they make is a sauna. We
could go on and be boring about sauna.
Take one every single day. Bunchar makes
a sleek infrared sauna blanket. It's got
a similar effect to a finished sauna,
but without the intense heat. It's an
easy and comfortable 30-inut session you
can enjoy while relaxing with your
family, talking to people, reading, and
it leaves you feeling refreshed and
slightly euphoric, but in a good,
healthy way. It's a great addition to
your wellness routine. You may even drop
a few pounds doing it. Bon Charge ships
worldwide. Bond Charge is B O N C H A R
G- E offers free shipping and allows for
easy returns and exchanges. So go to
bondcharge.com/tucker. Use the coupon
code Tucker to save 15%. So why do you
think he did it? I mean, he was
basically It felt to me like he was sent
on a kamicazi
mission. That's the way it looked here.
The guy just flies into your aircraft
carrier, doesn't sink it, but it
destroys his his plane, his career. I
don't get it in a sense. I don't know. I
don't think Douglas Murray destroyed his
career. I think he destroyed his
reputation. And so his reputation
amongst the people, but his career is
actually going to be fine. Much like
Camala Harris's career is actually going
to be fine. And I don't know, you know,
I'm I'm speculating a little bit uh with
this cuz there there really there was
not almost any interaction off the
podcast. Like Douglas Murray showed up
five minutes later we were recording. He
left immediately afterward and me and
Rogan hung out for a so like there's
nothing more that the viewer didn't see
that I saw really hellos and goodbyes.
Um but I think number one of my my
guesses I'm speculating here is that he
just didn't uh wasn't really prepared
for me and it was like oh some a
comedian will be on there and maybe he
came in kind of confident that like
he'll be able to handle me. I've had
that happen a few times in in my career.
I think it's happening less. I can't
imagine he didn't like look into me
before the debate, but maybe that's
possible. But the feeling that I got as
it was going on was kind of okay. I do
you remember you I'm sure you do. You
remember very well when Camala Harris
was running for president. I know that
seems like a long time ago, but that
actually happened which is really crazy.
It's like a dream sequence. Now, it's
not just that Dick Cheney and Liz Cheney
endorsed her, but she started bringing
Liz Cheney out to campaign events and
campaigning with Liz Cheney. Now, if you
were just looking at this on paper,
you'd go, "Okay, what demographic of
voters is this for?" And you'd very
quickly realize that that demographic
doesn't exist. No. Are the leftists?
They still remember her last name as
Cheney. And especially with the the year
that had preceded that, like they're
kind of anti-war again and they're not
really into like the idea of we've got a
Cheney on our side. It's not going to
win you. It's not going to get out your
base. And then on the other side, I
mean, she lost by like 50 points in her
congressional run. I mean, she's it's
not like you're bringing Republicans in.
And so, I think the only thing you could
conclude is that, oh, this isn't
actually for the voters. There's
somebody else who Camala Harris is
talking to here. There's a power source
that may be a little concerned about her
and she's trying to let them know. Don't
worry, I'm good for business. I've got
Liz Cheney right here. That's kind of my
assumption. It seemed to me with the
Douglas Murray thing, he wasn't playing
to the audience. He certainly wasn't
trying to persuade Joe. No, he perhaps
was talking to a different audience,
which will make sure that his career is
just fine going forward. That's the
sense I got. If you want to make people
paranoid and hateful, act like that.
Well, again, look, there two things that
I I really want to make sure I express.
number one with the thing where he's
this this claim some Jewish ancestry
thing which by the way would be I think
if you were to ever do this to say like
a Jewish person who was on your side you
would be like well that's a pretty
anti-semitic thing to do right to like
challenge their Jewishness because they
disagree with a policy but what does
your Jewishness have to do with it
anyway well right that's the whole
point and that you know it does
I think it's basically like this I think
that particularly when it comes to the
Israel stuff, a lot of these guys don't
know what to do with me. Because
typically, as every American who's ever
criticized Israel knows, you get labeled
as being a Jew hater. Oh, you must be
anti-Semitic. That's why you would say
something like that. Like remember that
horrible uh anti-semite Pat Buchanan who
said that the Israel lobby wanted a war
in Iraq? She just hates Jewish people.
Like even though we all know that's
true, when you say it, they go, "You're
an anti-semite." That's like the game
that they play. That's much tougher to
do when you're talking to someone who's
Jewish. And so in a in a sense that ends
up being kind of a shield against the
accusation. And so they want to remove
that shield so that you don't have But
the bottom line is that no one should
have that shield. And I am Jewish. My
mother and father are both Jewish. I am
I think I was 86% Ashkanazi Jew on my
DNA test. I think that's enough. But uh
the point is it shouldn't matter. It
shouldn't matter at all. You should
anybody I'm talking about the behavior
of nations by the way. Nations with
militaries and parliaments, congresses,
like these are countries
and I what does this have to do? I mean
well first of all and this isn't even
the most important point but the
American taxpayer is forced to pay for
this stuff. So, but even if he wasn't,
even if you didn't have to pay for it,
if you're a human being, forget even an
American. If you're a human being, you
have a right to have an opinion on any
issue you want to have an opinion on.
This is what the left did during co. It
was like, wait a second, it seems like
this came, you're telling me it came
from a penglin in a wet market, a fish
market, a mammal sold in a fish market
somehow, you know, was the genesis of
this virus. But there was this level
three bolab like a mile away. Maybe that
was a source and they're like, "Ah, you
hate Asians." It's like, and they
claimed racism, so you couldn't pursue
that line of inquiry. I see people like
Douglas Murray, supposedly on the right,
and there are a lot of others like
Douglas Murray saying the same thing,
like you can't you can't express an
opinion about where your tax dollars go
or about people dying or else you're a
bigot. How is that different, right?
Well, no, it's not. It's the same thing.
It's the same kind of pathetic um tactic
where if you can't if you can't argue
against someone's ideas, you just say,
"Oh, you're a bad person and that's why
you have these ideas to begin with."
It's it's a a very it's a very lowgrade
like social psychology attempt to shame
someone out of having the the views that
they have. Um and yeah, it's exactly
it's it's what the woke did on
everything. It's no matter what it was.
If anytime is a I don't I can't remember
who coined the term but uh is a racist
is anybody winning an argument against a
progressive. Exactly. You know, it's
that's it. And so he's doing the same
thing. But then the other thing which is
is really separate and secondary from
that. But the argument that Douglas
Murray is making is that if I call out
Paul Wolawitz or even, you know, more
broadly speaking, if I call out the
neoonservatives,
um, and how they hijacked American
foreign policy and how they very much
had Israel's interest in mind, which I I
get from reading the neoconservatives. I
don't get this from reading critics of
them. It's from their in their own
words, right? He'll he's saying me
calling that out is fertile ground for
Jew hatred to rise. And it's like, no,
what you're doing is fertile ground.
What you telling me I'm not allowed to
call out the deputy defense secretary
because his last name is Jewish. That's
that's actually what leads to a rise in
people not liking Jews. Couldn't agree
more. And I do think Douglas, though
he's not an expert or a genius, is smart
enough to understand that, but he did it
anyway. Yeah. And I don't know his
motive, but in the moment that I think
made me actually turn it off, I had to
stop watching. Um, but it was most
revealing of all is when he goes after
Daryl Cooper, the historian, really one
of the great historians of the United
States, Daryl Cooper. Um, and doesn't
know his name. Yeah. And but goes after
him personally as like a Nazi or
something. And let me just
parathetically, and I'll shut up after
this, but Dale Cooper is one of the
kindest, most reasonable, most
fundamentally liberal people I know.
anti-Nazi people, you know, a guy who
you could give your routing number to
would never steal money. Yeah. A guy
who, if he had absolute power, would
kill nobody, like a truly decent
Christian man. Basically called him a
monster and didn't even know his name.
And so that suggested to me that he was
like briefed by somebody before, make
sure you get in this Holocaust, which
he's not, Daryl Cooper. Like what is
that? Well, it's also, you know, if
you're if you're smearing people who,
which and Daryl wasn't the only one, but
if you're smearing people whose like
names you don't know and who you admit
you've never listened to any of their
their work, maybe don't put that right
in the middle of an appeal to expertise,
you know, like like maybe don't maybe
have that in a different section than in
the section where you're going, you
really have to know what you're talking
about in order to have an opinion on
these things. And so that didn't that
didn't work out very well. Dude, Daryl
is a is an amazing guy. He is brilliant.
His work is phenomenal. Um I know him
personally and he's like genuinely a
great person. He's a humane man. Yes.
And it's it is something it's a comment
on our time and on our society that the
guy who essentially if you if you
actually consume any of Daryl's work as
I have consumed a lot of it
basically Daryl's whole kind of um his
template the way he operates is he's uh
there's basically only like a couple
rules and like number one is he has to
read everything that's available on the
subject. So he reads everything. The
guy's a machine. His his depth of
knowledge is like second to none. He
just knows everything. And then number
two is whenever you talk about history,
basically his rule is that you have to
understand that everyone involved is a
human being, every one of them was a
three-year-old at one point. So like
totally innocent, like good little boy,
like my three-year-old that I have at
home. And that they grew up in real
circumstances and real things happen to
them. And if you're going to do history,
you have to constantly be doing your
absolute best to put yourself in this
person's shoes and then put yourself in
this person's shoes and then put
yourself on this side of the conflict
and then put yourself on this side of
the conflict. That's basically it. He
It's pure empathy. Like all and actually
um as I've mentioned to you personally
and I've told Daryl this personally, he
is probably the best shot people have at
dradicalizing people in in the worst
form of being radicalized. He's the guy,
listen, for me personally, and I thought
I was pretty well read on the history of
of Israel Palestine. And he has this
this incredibly long series, like a
30-hour series called Fear and Loathing
in the New Jerusalem. And like the thing
is, I knew most of what I knew, not all
of it, but most of what I had read about
with the Israeli Palestine conflict,
like most people, was like starts in
1947, 1948, and then goes up to today.
his series is about it's like from the
1890s until 1947. So he's talking about
the creation of the state from Zionism
being created to the state being created
and going rehearsal to Bengurian. Right.
Right. Exactly. That's that's basically
the the whole, you know, he has a little
bit where he's talking about the pgrams
that preceded, you know, the Zionists,
but that's really the the story. And it
actually made me much more sympathetic
to the Zionists. You know, as somebody
who grew up kind of in that propaganda,
in the pro-Israel propaganda, then
ultimately turned on it and became a
critic of Israel. Listening to his
series, you understand. It just puts you
in the position and you do understand
like, oh, okay, these were real men who
were reacting to the circumstances of
their day. you can kind of understand
why a lot of them wanted to do this. By
the way, it's pretty amazing that they
pulled it off. However you feel about
however you feel about what the
government of Israel is doing, it's
amazing that they did this. And yet,
look, and of course, for the one, this
is why I say it's a comment on our time.
So, there's one guy here who's going
like, "Listen, you got to like really
completely educate yourself on a subject
and then you have to have empathy toward
all sides." And then everyone goes,
"Nazi? That guy's a Nazi." I mean,
that's what it is to be a Nazi in 2025.
It's just so funny. I'm too old for a
lot of this stuff. And so, I thought,
you know, among the many lessons, great
lessons of the Second World War that I I
mean, I grew up marinating in, you
dehumanizing people is bad. Treating
them like treating human beings like
they're not human is bad. And I I still
believe that. I think it's the core of
Christianity. And but it's also just the
core of any civil society, any decent
society. And that's what Daryl is trying
to do. Yeah. And I don't know that I've
ever heard anybody try and take apart
his his, you know, factual analysis.
It's always it always immediately goes
to motive. You're a Nazi. Shut up.
You're a Holocaust den or just claim,
right? Or claiming he said something
that isn't at all what he said. Like he
downplayed the atrocities the No, he
didn't. It's also um but but why why
should Daryl Cooper
um and by the way a number of my
friends, people I really like have been
involved in this like their authority
has been marshaled to destroy Daryl
Cooper and I grieve to see it cuz it's
you know they're paid to do it and it's
so degrading to them and dishonest and
sad. But why? Daryl Cooper's like this
one guy living in the Pacific Northwest.
Why spend all this time and energy to
destroy him? Well, I love uh you said
this um I forget a few years ago. I
can't remember what it was where you
said this, but it was you and I this
really hit home with me. And this isn't
like and you weren't suggesting that
this is like a proof. This isn't like a
like a a irrefutable logical argument.
It's kind of like a guide, but you know,
you said the thing about you could tell
when something's infected because you
touch it and you recoil and you go,
"Something's going on there." Now, what
exactly is it? Now, it's that doesn't
prove what's going on, but look, you
can't. The fact that Daryl's moment on
on your podcast sitting right here where
I'm sitting got such a reaction Yes.
really demonstrates something like
something and and you see that it's
like, oh, you touched on like a third
rail. Oh, hurt dog barks. Yes. Well, and
and in the same way when you uh had
first uh questioned the morality of
dropping nuclear weapons on on cities
and then there's this big freak out over
that and now nobody here has said, "Hey,
the Nazis were the good guys. The Nazis
didn't commit any atrocities." No one's
even downplaying no one even made the
argument that I remain anti-Nazi for the
work for the record. But I'm saying like
no one even made the argument that like
it was 5.9 million, not six, you know,
like there's nothing this this topic
hasn't even been broached. No, but what
what you are attacking is really the
underpinning of the origin story of the
American Empire. Exactly. And that's
what you're not allowed to question
because and you see it the way every
every defender of every war, including
the current one, if you can call it a
war going on in Gaza, I'm not sure war
is exactly the right term to describe
it. destruction of of a captive people.
Um, but every single person who defends
it will always invoke World War II at
one point. Not even arguing that like
not even making an argument that this is
why it was justified in World War II.
Just like we did it in World War II. We
did it in World War II and we're the
good guys. So good guys are allowed to
slaughter entire peoples. You know, it's
like it is the and and look, even if you
even if you accept the official World
War II story as being completely
correct, it's still something that's
used to justify all of these other
indefensible wars. Every war of my
lifetime, and I doubt too many people
really want to defend the ones in
between World War II and when I was
born, you know, like I I don't think
anyone's going like, "Look at Vietnam.
It did such a great such a good thing
that we did that." and those who are
attempting to defend it are pathetic.
But, you know, Iraq and Libya and Syria
and Afghanistan and um even the ones
when I was a little kid, you know,
Serbia, every one of these guys they
always said was Adolf Hitler. Mallich is
Adolf Hitler. Saddam Hussein is Adolf
Hitler. Gaddafi is Adolf Hitler. Noriega
is Adolf Hitler. Every bad guy has
always been It's like they use this
model to justify. You're only ever
allowed to learn the lesson in history
that's like Chamberlain was an appeaser,
appeasing bad. Exactly. Confrontation
good. As if that's as if the lessons of
history are
that aggression is always correct.
Trying to work out a deal is always
wrong. Yes. And that's why I think it's
so important to attack that narrative.
Yeah. And from my perspective, it's like
not even about principle as much as it
is effect. If what we're doing was
working, then I I guess I wouldn't be
interested in, you know, analyzing it so
critically. But it's not working. It
hasn't worked for the West, which I
love. It's where my ancestors are from.
It's where my children live. So, it's
like, I don't know. I think it's fair to
ask like, how did we get here? It's all
falling apart. Why? And maybe the
assumptions were bad. And what are those
assumptions? Well, they're rooted in
that war. As you said, it's just
interesting that anyone would want to
defend that. Like, I don't really I
still don't get the motive. Maybe I
never will. Like, why would you want to
defend any of that? Why would you want
to defend Dresden or Gaza or any things
that America did? By the way, it's not
attacking not it's not attacking Israel.
It's I'm attacking the US government,
which I pay for, which my ancestors
helped build. Like, yeah. Why Why would
you ever want to defend bad things?
Well, it is um you know there there is a
tendency by people who if you're if
you're pulling away like the
underpinnings in someone's entire
worldview, they usually get very
defensive. You're right. You're totally
right. I've been there, by the way. I've
been there. So that I have felt
defensive when I first heard Alex Jones
question 9/11. I was outraged by I was
totally outraged by it. And so I in a in
a reflexive stupid way. Well, I remember
um just because I was like very um on I
was very on board with the Ron Paul
presidential campaigns. This was my like
radicalizing moment was was Ron Paul
running for president and I remember
that you were hosting the uh the event
that he had. I can't remember what it
was called but very well. It was the
Rally for the Republic. The Rally for
the Republic. I should have 2008. I was
the MC of that. Yes. So at the time it
was a really big deal for us that we had
you mcing it and because it was like Ron
Paul was getting blacked out in all the
the you know mainstream media as we used
to call it at the time. Uh, and but we
had Tucker Carlson. We had like one of
the big players in that world hosting
the event and I remember um when you
walked out well you it I saw like an
interview with you where someone was
like hey why did you walk out of that
event and you were like I don't know man
the the saying 911 wasn't inside job
stuff was just a bridge too far for me
and honestly I totally understood that
at the time I was just pissed off at um
Jesse Ventura cuz I was like come on
dude we actually got like a chance here
to make a mark and then you're going to
go you know start spouting out with
these conspiracies He believed it. I
mean, I think Jess, even just a whole
rabbit hole I won't even go down, but I
think I don't know what happened to that
guy. Sure is a very flawed guy. Um, for
sure. We're all flawed people. I'm a
little less judgmental than I used to
be. Um, now that I know the depth of my
own shittiness, but which I think is
important. Yeah. Meditate every day on
your death and your own flaws and you'll
be a happy person with better
perspective. But, um, I I shouldn't have
done that. I don't I don't know why, you
know, was so my views are so different.
But anyway, the point is I understand
what you're saying. Well, it's also that
you you know, it's not even it's not
even necessarily that you would have to
like all these years later be convinced
that he was right. It's just I think
after so many years of seeing how evil
the our government actually can be that
you go like, "Okay, I'm listening. All
right, fine. I I dismissed that out of
hound, but now I'm more or how about the
only question that matters is whether or
not something is true." Yeah.
And another way to put it, a phrase that
I've coined in and make copyright is
facts don't care about your feelings.
That's a good one. You like that?
Someone should really run with that. You
could get a long way. You could get like
a special deal with Facebook on that on
the basis of that. Um but uh but but I
actually agree with I agree with that,
right? And I agree. I don't think you
should hurt people's feelings on
purpose, but I think the the core
question, the only one that matters is
is something true. And I know that you
share that. And that's why and I I hate
to beat up on poor Douglas who's like a
sad a sad character, but he had this
line in here. Oh, this isn't Sorry, I
never go to my notes, but I'm No, I This
is from a guy called Sam Harris. I'm
loosely familiar. So, one of the easiest
decisions you're going to make this week
is to make your home secure with Simply
Safe. The moment you arm your system,
your family, and everything you work for
is protected, and you can focus on what
matters. You can leave the house without
worrying that someone is going to break
in and steal your stuff, violate your
sanctuary because the best security
system in the country is watching.
Millions of Americans use Simply Safe
and enjoy the peace of mind it creates.
Now, a traditional burglar alarm only
goes off when someone breaks into your
house. That's not good enough. Smashed a
window, was already in your basement.
Simply Safe prevents burglaries before
they happen. It's got AI powered cameras
and live professional monitoring agents,
so it leaves nothing to chance. Plans
start at about a dollar per day, plus a
60-day satisfaction guarantee, or you
get your money back. Check it out at
simplysafe.com/tucker. Go to
simplysafe.com/tucker to get 50% off a
new system with professional monitoring
and your first month free. That's
simplysafe.com/tucker. There is no safe
like Simplysafe. So Sam Harris, um, wow,
he doesn't care for you at all. or it
looks like me either, but whatever. I'll
ignore the stuff about me. I'm not even
exactly sure who Sam Harris is, but um a
sad atheist guy, but he describes you as
a pure misinformation artist who lies as
freely as he
breathes. And I just thought as I read
this, you can say, you know, Dave Smith,
I don't know, whatever. But I I feel
like that's the opposite of the truth. I
feel like maybe you lie under duress,
but in general you you are like very
focused on what you think is true. Well,
I mean,
again, I just feel like it's a I I
benefit in a way from us having this
conversation like after co and after
kind of all of these insane things that
Okay, so Sam Harris, what did I get
wrong? Like I don't think that if you're
gonna if you're gonna smear me as I'm
being a misinformation art, which I you
know I'll take that to I should make
t-shirt t-shirts about misinformation
artist. I'll take that. Pure
misinformation. Pure misinformation.
Everything you say is a lie. It's like
breathing to you. Dude, I got I got
called that throughout all of CO and I
was right about everything I was saying.
So keep calling me this. Okay, fine.
Make an argument. What have I said
that's wrong? Why does he Why is he so
mad at you? Oh, he Well, Sam, he's a
rationalist, right? Oh, yeah. Yeah. He's
the guy who uh defended the war in Iraq
and torture and uh fell for the Russia
gate Thought Trump was a
Russian spy, fell for lockdowns and
vaccine mandates and all this stuff. So,
I'll put my misinformation track record
up against Sam Harris's, you know,
whatever. I mean, I know he's got a
meditation app or something like that,
but did you see the Tim Dylan thing the
other day? Oh, so dude, it's so great.
That was like I texted him. I saw that
funny. He Tim Dylan the brilliant
comedian. Think about how Sam Harris is
a meditation app. I didn't even know
that. So by day he's a he's a meditation
guru and by night he's encouraging like
carpet bombing of children. I mean it's
just on it's just too ridiculous. and
you know all you know all of these guys
it's it's sad in a way because they're
it's you just you can't contradict
yourself on what your
entire like purpose was for your entire
career without some people noticing and
that's kind of what's going on with all
these why the emotion so I notice it
even now in our conversation you are
there's a lightness to the way you
describe things um you obviously have
passionate views
But you don't seem emotionally
overroought. Douglas seemed emotionally
overroought. This guy Harris seems
emotionally overroought. They seem very
emotional. What is
that? Well, I mean, I would say that um
kind of ironically, although not really
actually ironic, and this kind of goes
to, you know, the conversation that you
and Brett Weinstein were having the
other day, who I really love Brett. I
think he's he's great. Um, I'm on your
side of that debate. But I think one of
one of the fundamental flaws in atheism
is that it doesn't really exist. Yes.
They think that's the flaw in believing
in God. No, they see they think they
think the flaw in believing in God is
that God really doesn't exist. God does
exist. What doesn't exist are atheists.
There's no such thing. So true. And you
could even get into an like maybe if
there was such thing as atheists, it
would be a good thing to be one. But
there aren't. They don't exist. They all
have their religion. And it's it's
almost it it's almost by definition that
whatever your highest thing is becomes
your religion. Um I don't know if it's
quite by definition. And I suppose it is
it is theoretically possible to be an
atheist, but almost no one ever is. And
so what you're seeing is just that, you
know, I'm attacking their religion and
according to them that makes me guilty
of blasphemy. But it's just so
interesting that they're so brittle
about it. You'd think if you're an
atheist, you'd be like, does it really
matter? I mean, there's no right or
wrong obviously cuz how can the
authority on that? Well, there is no
authority. So it's all just a matter of
preference and in the end you just cease
to exist. And so the stakes are zero. So
what are you so mad about? Like why do
you care? You'd think everyone would be
like, "Well, how I'll take it a step
further. Sam Harris does not believe in
free will. So what is he upset with me
about? I have no choice. I have to be a
misinformation artist. This is what I'm
I'm wired to be a misinformation artist.
Right. So what are you upset with? And
he's not even making the choice to say
that. listen anytime and this was one of
I again I really really like Brett but I
think one of the the areas where he
failed kind of in that uh conversation
with you in that you know very friendly
debate is that he had to say several
times throughout it yes I live as if
what you're saying is correct but I view
things this way so yes I'd much rather
live but if
your if your like thesis involves you
having to engage engage in a
performative contradiction, then
something's not right with your theory.
And so Sam Harris will sit here and say,
"None of us have free will, but I'm
still going to act as if all of us have
free will." You've got a major flaw in
your theory that like this is just too
much. This is this is too f you can't do
that. That's not right. And so yes,
again, with all of them, the the bottom
line, I think, with a lot of these
people like and some have adapted better
than others. I think Brett's one of the
ones who's really adapted well from like
the old academia world to this new
podcast world that we're in now. But I
think the problem with a lot of them
like uh like Sam Harris and and I think
Douglas Murray too is that what they've
worked their entire career on has been
completely rejected and that's a tough
position to be in. Um but it's not
really I mean I spent my whole life in
cable news. It you know obviously is in
terminal decline. And I had all kinds of
views that I argued for passionately
that were totally wrong. I admitted it.
I gained perspective and humility
humility in admitting it. You're just a
human being. Yeah, but that listen, you
that may have happened kind of naturally
for you. I'm just saying when you run it
on scale, very few people are able to do
that. It's not hard. It's it's it's the
only act of liberation that's really
possible in this life is freeing
yourself from like the lies. And the
number one lie is I'm God. Yeah. And
like I'm omnisient or the, you know, was
perfectly wise person, whatever. It's
like, you know, you make mistakes.
You're you're a ridiculous primate. It's
a little fur. Like, just admit it.
There's just there. Look, you got some
things wrong. Yeah. But there's a
difference between that and your entire
foundation being built on hypocrisy and
that hypocrisy being shown. You know,
look, I mean, you can't make this stuff
up, right? Ben
Shapiro built a career opposing identity
politics as a proud Zionist.
Yeah. You listen, feel however you feel
about
Zionism. It's identity politics. Like,
like that is the definition of you could
not find a better example of a politics
built on an identity. And yet you're out
here saying facts don't care about your
feelings. Identity politics is wrong.
And then while you're saying that, your
number one priority, I know, is this
this manifestation of identity politics.
You can only keep that charade going for
so long. No, it's totally true. before
someone sees through it. There's
something in people that the the lowest
part of people that instinctively
accuses others of doing what they're
doing. And I've never really I man I
don't that's the one thing I don't want
to be is a guy who does that but I
remember Bill Crystal who I worked for
for years and really liked and was
grateful to and he was a great boss in
the 90s um and came out against me and
called me a Nazi and all this stuff like
without calling me by the way I called
him and asked him to lunch he refused he
wouldn't go to lunch with me end of our
relationship but one of the criticisms
against me I'll never forget it when I
realized this phenomenon was real was
when he accused me of advocating and I'm
quoting for an ethnostate
Now, I have a lot of flaws. They're all
in display. I've never wanted an
ethnostate. And it's like, wait, one of
us is for an ethnostate, and it's not
me. But you just said that like of all
the possible criticisms. It's just too
unbelievable. I mean, it's like
unbelievable. You're crystal accusing me
of wanting an ethnostate, but you like
you just like you almost like don't even
you can't even respond. You just have to
go like, "Hey." It's like I I didn't say
anything. I was like, "Okay, right."
Yes. You know, I people can't hear
themselves. I mean, you know, when
people get old, they you know, they tell
the same stories and you just, you know,
when you love them, you're indulgent.
But I I just hope that doesn't happen to
me. I hope I don't lose all
self-awareness to the point where I've
got like lunch on my chin and like
accuse other people of doing exactly
what I'm doing. Exactly what I'm doing.
Well, you're going you have lunch on
your chin. Like you, you know. Yeah.
That's you don't want to be there. I
don't want to be that guy. Um, and I
think that there's like look, obviously
like we're we're living through
something, you know, we're probably
living through several things that are
very profound, but one of the most
profound things has been this revolution
in in um information and the technology
and this it's led to this like kind of
mass decentralization of media and where
there's now like there's so many things
and shows and different voices, you
know, we I find people all the time who
have never heard of before. You know,
I'm sure you've had this experience,
too. You'll find someone you'll be like,
"Oh, that guy's actually really smart.
People should know about this guy. How
many followers? 7 million. Oh, he's got
7 million. Oh, he's huge. Like, I just
found some guy who is bigger than anyone
on cable news. And I didn't even know he
existed, you know." And so now it's just
because of this dynamic there aren't you
know as you know the the corporate media
apparatus like big newspapers and big
cable news shows and was very controlled
very controlled the range of allowable
opinion was very narrow it's what uh my
uh my good friend and brilliant
historian Tom Woods uh always called the
uh was it the the 3x6 card of allowable
opinion you know you get this area of
allowable opinion and then that's where
the conversation takes place. That's
been shattered into a million pieces and
now there's voices from all over the
place and some good and some great and
some bad and really bad. But it's just
much harder for people to you know that
control existed so that you don't get
exposed so that you don't get expos so
that you could go like look even the
right-winger John McCain agrees or even
the far-left activist Nancy Pelosi I
mean it's like dude have to
hear Sean Hannity goes the far left
Nancy Pelosi it's like how many leftists
have you actually talked to in your life
how many leftists have you ever read you
think Nancy Pelosi is a far-left it like
really they got her vineyard in Napa.
All these different, you know, these
different tools of corporations are left
and right. But so that's over now. And
now I think it's just much it's much
tougher to keep this charade going. And
it seems to be collapsing so fast. Yes.
Yes. And it's not again, you
could you could be honest about it and
and kind of maintain some of your
respect, but the the truth is that like
look, even when they'll say these
things like if you if you accuse Ben
Shapiro of having dual loyalty, they go,
"Well, that's an anti-semitic trope.
That means you hate the Jews." But then
he'll sit there in his own words and
say, I forget his exact quote, but it
was something like, "My favorite thing
about the United States of America is
that it protects Israel." And so, you're
already saying you have loyalty to both
of these countries. In fact, I'm not so
sure about the one of the loyalties, but
I'm very sure about the other one. And
that is not I'm sorry, that's not a
statement against Jewish people. I'm
Jewish. I love Jewish people. You know,
it's like I I get called a self-hating
Jew on Twitter or whatever. It could not
be further from the truth. I actually
really love Jewish people. There's many
things about Jewish culture that have,
you know, had a huge impact on me, made
me the person I am, made me a better
person uh for their their impact on me.
But this is a foreign government. Like
I'm I'm sorry. That's we're we're
allowed to talk about that if you you
know, I saw Glenn Beck the other day had
uh Douglas Murray on and he wasn't like
Glenn Beck wasn't like mean to me
personally, but which I appreciated. Um,
but he was just going I mean it was just
so ridiculous. But it's like you were
sitting here. We're going to we're
having a conversation about a foreign
government. You started crying on your
show talking about this foreign
government. That's weird. That's
weird. We We should not be doing that.
What the hell is going on here? Like I
don't even think you should cry about
our own government, you know? But if
you're going to cry about one, it should
be ours. And no, but no one would even
think to cry about our own, right? I
mean, like, come on. like let let's have
a real conversation about this and if
you don't especially and by the way this
is not my primary goal. My primary goal
is to tell the truth and to advocate for
what's good for our country. Um but if
you're concerned about like the young
men getting a little bit too radical and
and you know being too obsessed with the
Jews or too against the Jews which I do
think is a legit concern. It definitely
is. You know that's not good for you and
it's it's not good for you. It's not
good for the conflict. It's not good for
the country. I just don't think any of
racial collectivism always leads to bad
places. You don't want to you don't want
to embrace that stuff. But if you're
concerned about that, well then the
first thing you have to do is tell the
truth. You can't keep lying to people
and you can't you can't keep sitting
here and going like, "Oh, no. The
neoconservative." You can't say
neoconservative, right? Wasn't that Mark
uh Levin? Didn't he uh just say if the
neo concern Mark Levin who's a who I
also know I mean I've been in right-wing
world my whole life I know everybody I
work with Mark always got along with
Mark always been nice to me but yeah he
just accused Trump the Trump
administration of
anti-semitism for calling someone a
neocon well what he what he did was he
accused Steve Witoff of anti-semitism
right and I just want to say I think
Steve Wickoff is if there's anyone who
is you know has the hand of odd on him.
It seems to me, I sort of overstate it,
but I feel that way. It's Wickoff who's
like a thoroughly decent man and who was
running around the world trying to bring
peace. And also, by the way, nations who
single-handedly saved 20 Jewish
hostages. Well, exactly. I mean, I don't
know if they were all Jewish. I think
most of them were. I think almost all of
them were, but I think they got 20
hostages released in the phase one of
the ceasefire that he worked out. Then
Israel violated the ceasefire and so
they didn't get the other hostages back,
although thankfully the the American was
just released. But this guy, Wickoff,
has actually done more to help those
hostages. So, here's what I mean, here's
what he said. I actually wrote this down
cuz I was I was really bothered by it.
Um, this is Levin on Twitter, Mark
Levin, who works at Fox, which is like
basically seems to have turned his
programming over to advocating for a war
with Iran. Um, neocon is a pjorative for
Jew. Unbelievable. And this is in
response to Wickoff saying, quote, "The
neocon element believes that war is the
only way to solve things." So you have
Mark Levin calling Steve Witoff an
anti-semite. Right. Right. And again,
we've reached Pete Crate. I mean, I
think Wickoff is Jewish. Right. Again,
but it's I I don't even know, but again,
it shouldn't matter. It shouldn't really
matter. It doesn't matter. He's American
and he's on the side of peace and so I'm
for that guy. Um, but you know the crazy
thing, so I also I I at one point in the
debate with Douglas Murray, I said
something about the neoconservatives and
he went, "Ah, the n-word, you know,
the," you know, making a play on the
n-word or whatever. And it's it's
interesting. I mean, Doug Murray wrote
the book called Neoconservatism, Why We
Need It. It was his book. And so what
happened was for people who don't like
know you know a lot about this it's
there there was a this was their term
neoonservative was not a porative term
until the neoonservatives got control of
our foreign policy and ruined everything
and then it became a term that we'll
we'll call every war hawk we'll be like
oh another neocon now a lot of times we
will use the term when strictly speaking
this person may not have been a
self-identified neoconservative it's
just become a pard a porative for
someone trying to get us into stupid
war. But the neoconservatives
themselves, the original group, this was
their name for themselves. And you,
right, you were there. You worked
alongside them. I worked for them. I
worked for Bill Crystal for 5 and a half
years. I was a neocon. Yes. It wasn't
in. And they had no Episcopalian neocon.
But look, they had no problem using the
term until everybody started to hate
them. And then they went, you can't call
us this. But it's like, no, you guys,
like this was your own term that you
used for yourself. You can read their
own documents and the project for a new
American century. You read the clean
break memo. They laid out what they
wanted their foreign policy to be. I
mean, literally, right? Wasn't it um oh
god, I can't remember whose quote it
was. I know that um a bunch of them
loved sharing it, but what is it that
every 10 years we got to throw a small
puny little country up against the wall
and show them who's boss? This was their
foreign policy. We need multiple
theaters of war in the Middle East in
order to ensure the new century is an
American century. So immoral and
disgusting. Yes. And also that and look
as anybody can read, I think we talked
about this last time I was on, but
anybody can read for themselves the
clean break memo. It was written by
Richard Pearl and David Worms to
Benjamin Netanyahu that was like, "Look,
here is our plan." And the break was
from the peace process. The break was
from Oslo. And they go, "Look, here's
the plan." And you know how Yeetszak
Rabin and all these liberal uh Jews are
saying we have to make peace with the
Palestinians so that we can then make
peace with the broader Arab world? Well,
no. We got a new plan. We're going to
break with all of that. We're not doing
this land swap thing. We're not giving
the Palestinians a state. What we'll do
is we'll have America overthrow all of
these other governments. That way you
never have to make peace with the
Palestinians and you can just enjoy
domination over the region. And I from
my reading of it, it does seem to me
that a lot of them believed it. You
know, I think a lot of them hubris and
you know, yeah. Yeah. We overthrow
Saddam Hussein, this will democracy will
sweep the region, then we'll overthrow
Gaddafi, then we'll overthrow the
Mullers in Iran, and then the region
will be way better. Except every time
they actually did it, it resulted in
nothing but disaster, which really could
have been very easily predicted and was
predicted by wiser people than the
neocons. But all these years later, you
either have to like apologize for your
role in this catastrophe or defend your
role in this catastrophe and talk about
how you still really believe it was the
right thing to do. But you can't sit
here and say you're not an expert and
you're a Jew hater if you say the word
neoconservative. That's not an
appropriate response. But if if Mark
Levin is calling the Trump
administration anti-semitic, Steve
Wickoff,
we're at the end of something and the
beginning of something new. I mean,
that's right. Right. I mean, I that's so
I almost called Mark when I saw it cuz I
I really I know him, but I really love
Steve Wickoff and I think his decency I
don't agree with him on everything at
all, but his decency is just palpable. I
mean, it just comes through. his concern
for people, his reasonableness, uh, is
just so obvious and the effects of what
he's done have been so great. Great for
America, great for the world. So, I
almost I was so offended and then I
thought, I'm not going to solve anything
by calling Mark Levin and scolding him,
probably scream at
me. But, but I did think like he's not
stupid. If you're saying if you're
calling Steve Wickoff an anti-semite on
Twitter, like you know you're losing,
right? Is that what that is? And it's
such a um you know in the what's what's
weird is that at the same time because I
know all of these these people will
they'll be lecturing me about how I
don't understand like the gravity of
anti-semitism and it's like no actually
I kind of do and I would never just
throw the accusation around like that.
I'm very hesitant to ever call any
person a bigot or a Jew hater or or
racist or any of these things because
it's like you're you're intentionally
trying to to dehumanize them on the
accusation that they're dehumanizing
others. Scaring the crap out of people.
I'm getting texts from people I really
love personally who are very very, you
know, who aren't paying a lot of
attention. and they just hear that
there's anti-semitism and I'm part of it
and hurts their feelings and they're
confused and upset and it's like it it
has such a divisive effect. Yeah. Like
for real and it's I'm a little bit
concerned. Okay, so it's time for an
intervention. All your loved ones are
here and we're here to tell you it is
time to stop overpaying for your phone.
Verizon, AT&T, T-Mobile, there's a way
better way to do this. It's called Pure
Talk. Pure Talk is a wireless company
created by Americans for Americans. It
offers reliable coverage, excellent
service, and it's the smart way to cut
costs without giving up quality.
Qualifying plans start at just 35 bucks
a month. You get unlimited talk, texted,
15 gigs of data, a mobile hotspot on the
most dependable 5G network in the United
States. And if you join today, they
throw in a Samsung Galaxy for free.
Actually, for free. There's no weird
hidden fees or charges that you don't
see at first. Legitimately free, no
dollars. So, do yourself a favor. Cut
your cell phone bill in half at least
with Pure Talk. Go to pure
talk.com/tucker to claim your free
Galaxy Samsung phone with a qualifying
plan. We can tell you it's a good deal
and you'll be happy you did it. Yeah, I
mean, I'm I'm concerned about all of it.
Um, none of it's particularly good. But
there's also something which is it's
interesting to me as somebody who is uh
I am not a conservative. I mean, I'm a
bit of a right-winger, but I'm not a
conservative. Um, I'm kind of a radical
libertarian, and I kind of, you know, if
Tom Tillis is what a conservative is,
then I'm not Yeah. Right. I mean, I
mean, there are some, as a libertarian,
like there certainly are some things
that I think ought be conserved, you
know, like I I think like the Bill of
Rights and the and our traditions and I
think Christianity. I think there's a
lot of things that like should be
conserved, but it's so bizarre to me to
that now that I'm at this level where
it's like I'm I'm talking or not talking
to but being lectured to by like the
leaders of Conservatism, Inc. and I have
to explain to them that like I don't
believe in moral relativism. Like I like
as if this is like a new thing for them
to wrap their head around. And you've
gotten calls from Khan, Inc. trying to
bring you into line. I've I've gotten
for the first time in my career really
I've gotten a few of the calls. Um but I
mean it's it's I'm too far gone for
them. You know if I if you were going to
get me to sell out you would have had to
get me a while ago. You just shouldn't
have let me too late. Well it is I
remember so when I this is like I want
to say like 20 2014 2015 it was
somewhere in there. um where I start the
first time I ever got on television, the
first person who ever put me on TV was
Kennedy. Um who I just adore and will
for the rest of my days. Sweet girl.
Just like one of the sweetest, kindest,
really funny, really smart, weirdly
smart, but like when I say weirdly
smart, I I mean weirdly smart, like
knows about stuff that no one should
know about and then has like a lot of
information about it. But she's a
wonderful person. So she was a she put
me on Fox uh business and then um Greg
Gutfeld and Tom Shaloo who was hosting
Red Eye at the time, they started using
me on their Fox News shows and so it was
like the first time in my career I'd
like started getting on TV and I
remember a few people at Fox had told me
that they were like hey there's uh like
some people in management are like
interested in you like they're they're
taking you know some interest in you.
Um, and then it was kind of explained to
me, not like ever directly, but it was
like, you know,
you're you're a little out there for Fox
News. And I remember at the time I was
broke. I mean, dead broke only on just
to be I put a finer point on that. What
do they mean? Not in your personal life.
Your personal life more button down than
most people who are Well, at the time it
wasn't. This is before I was married and
had kids and stuff, but that's not what
they care about. They don't care. I
found out pretty quickly uh by just
doing shows at Fox News and then going
to the bar afterward with some of the
people there, you're like, "Oh,
Conservatism, Inc. is not exactly what
you thought." They're actually pretty
liberal uh when it comes down to the bar
hang after the show, I would say. But
but it was, you know, I was a Ron Paul
guy and and I was I was younger, so I
was a a more you know, you know, Ron
Paul was a country doctor wearing a suit
and tie. I was like a kid from Brooklyn
who was like, "You're all a bunch of
killers." You know, like this is all
the foreign policy stuff. It
was all the foreign policy stuff as it
always is. As it's that's always what
it's really all about. Um, and I don't
say that cuz I want it to be the case.
It's just the fact that that's always
really what it's all about. Took me 40
years to figure this out. But yes,
that's right. You're correct. By the
way, all these uh all of these even
debates today, the people on Twitter
talking about the woke right, it just
happens to be that everyone who's
labeled woke right are the ones who are
opposing American wars. And everybody
who's throwing out the accusation all
happen to support them. What's winced?
It's a nonsense term that they're trying
to say. It's it's totally ridiculous.
But but let me just uh on the Fox News
thing. So I remember then and this is I
was broke. I mean like broke like where
they're like hey let's go grab a beer
after the show. I'm like, "All right,
are you buying? Cuz I can't cuz if not,
like, let's go grab a six-pack at the
store and go back to my apartment and
cuz like I just had no money." And I
would have at the time when they said
they were like, "Look, they're thinking
about you for one of these
contributorships, you know, it was
whatever it is, it may give you like 100
grand a year or something like that if
you get one." It would have been like
life-changing for me. Life-changing. And
I remember consciously at the time
thinking, you know, at a time when I'm
making 25 grand a year, thinking, man,
maybe I just don't talk about the
foreign policy stuff. Maybe I just do
that. And then even in the moment I
thought about it, just being like, nah,
Ron Paul's my hero. My hero are the
people who tell the truth. Yes. So like,
I'm just not going to. But so if I
didn't if I didn't sell out then,
the idea that I'm going to sell out now
when I'm doing really well, it's like
no, that's ridiculous. Like no, you know
what I'm saying? Like it's like that's
that's insane. It was just funny that I
think that um that Murray thought he was
administering the kill shot. I think
that's what it was supposed to be. But
the opposite happened. It's like I I and
not to brag, I knew this as I was
watching it. I was like, Dave is about
to become way more famous, but not just
famous, more authoritative, more
respected, more closely listened to than
ever before. Has that been your
experience? Yeah. Yeah. I mean, it's
it's essentially just done nothing
except make me bigger, you know. And
were you Did you pay Douglas to do that?
I did not. I don't have that type of
money. The fight on purpose. I don't I
wish I had that. I'm doing okay. I don't
have money like that. I don't have buy
off Douglas Murray uh money. I think
he's I don't think it would take too
much. Well, he's it it's not just, you
know, one of the things that was
interesting is that it's not just So,
there was the debate. There was the
reaction to the debate, but then what
was really interesting is that then
there was the reaction to just because
it became such a big thing, it ended up
coming up on Rogan's podcast with other
guests like later on and they're all
just kind of making fun of of Douglas
and how ridiculous he was cuz he was
ridiculous. And then it's almost like
you see the realization set in with
those people that oh Joe was what
what essentially happened here, right?
And this is I think for almost everyone
to see is that I've been debating all
these guys on Israel Palestine and I've
been beating all these guys in these
debates and I'm I'm not saying I'm
beating I'm just saying like the
reaction the Oxford style voting is that
I I win dominantly and then Douglas
Murray was almost brought in as the the
boss dad's here right like this is the I
mean Ben Shapiro is not going to do it
he's not going to come debate me and so
who is it who's the best guy to come do
well here's Douglas Murray the guy who's
just known for his pros and his rhetoric
and how good he is at debating. I mean,
this is what he's known for. And then he
came in and couldn't lay a land a blow.
He couldn't take on one argument. He had
to just be resorted to like it. It was
like you were debating an anti-racist
college professor on what who's just
going to tell you the whole time that
I'm not even allowed to have this
opinion. It was just that. And so then
what do you think the response to that
was? Here's here you have Joe Rogan who
has got some of these guys on his show
who clearly are making a care. goes,
"All right, yeah, this is a pretty good
argument that this guy's making." And he
brought, you know, as much as Douglas
was complaining in his his op-eds after
the fact that it's so unfair that I
couldn't just go on alone. I had to go
on with this guy who doesn't know what
he's talking about. It's like, yeah, but
this was your opportunity, man. You
could have blown me out of the water and
then had Rogan being like, "Ah,
Maybe I should have more experts on.
like maybe I've got this comedian guy
who I think's making really good points,
but then this guy just came in and like
totally took him on and but he was
unwilling or unable to do that. And so
that was the next freak out is they
realize that like oh Joe just got pushed
more in my direction as his whole
audience did. I wonder though if there's
not something a little more sinister
underneath it. I mean you keep referring
to this as debate but it wasn't of
course it was not a debate. It was
Douglas trying to scold Joe into never
having you or anyone like you on his
show again. It was basically he was
playing the heavy a little bit. It was
kind of threatening. I thought like you
know you don't really know because you
were a sitcom actor/ comedian/bo hunter
that actually you're playing with some
pretty serious Joe Rogan and we've
been watching and maybe you should stop
having these people on. I mean that was
definitely the vibe I got from it. Oh,
no question. It was they even used the
word um when he was talking to uh Barry
Weiss um you know that embodiment of
expertise uh that is Barry Weiss uh they
they were talking and he used the word
platforming that Joe shouldn't be
platforming all of these people. It's
like okay so you're you're look I I'm
saying this is just Animal Farm. We're
at the end of Animal Farm where the pigs
and the people are indistinguishable.
Like if you're a conservative using the
word platform as a verb. Yeah. like how
long before you call me a white
supremacist actually which essentially I
guess white supremacist isn't the term
but anti-semite is the term that they're
going with. It's the exact same
playbook. It's and then they have the
balls to whip around and call you woke
right. Yes, that's right. I'm like it's
Bill Crystal calling me a you know
calling for an ethnostate. Yes. It's
it's all the same thing. Right. You're
sitting here there we have in this
country right now we have speech laws
being passed you know in the name of
students feeling not safe on college
campuses and you get the accusation of
bigotry used to shut down real disscent
and real conversations and then they're
going to turn around and say the other
side is
woke. So that's when I stopped laughing.
That I mean that is
um shocking to me. And the fact that the
Congress had scheduled it was thanks to
Marjorie Taylor Green. It was pulled off
the schedule. But God bless her. But um
what a weird world we're in. Where she
is the savior. Marjorie Taylor Green is
who that's where we're at. You know why?
Because Marjorie is totally sincere.
Yeah. She's actually not a liar. She's
sincere. That's why I hate her. Uh but
but there was a
bl vote scheduled on a bill that would
have made it a felony for Americans to
participate in a boycott of Israel and
is someone who has zero interest in
participating in any kind of boycott,
much less against Israel. I'm just not
interested. I'm happy whatever buy the
hummus and use the software. I I don't
care. Um, but I probably would have
engaged in one just to make the point
that I'm a free man in a free country
and we can't like how could you even
consider voting on something like that?
And isn't the most outrageous part of it
or at least to me I mean I guess it's
all outrageous but the most the crazy
thing is that we've and we've seen this
in uh in the last decade where all like
Hollywood types and like big musicians
would boycott red states like if they
tried to pass like a six week heartbeat
bill for abortion boycott. Yeah.
Boycott. So you could boycott states in
our own country, but you can't boycott a
foreign country. It's like the the
double standard there. Again, this is
why I said the thing about like
relativism. Um because in the same way
that um you know that people will talk
about constantly and the same people who
will harp on, you know, anti-semitism on
Twitter and like I'm not denying
something's going on there clearly.
Yeah, like there's there's a real thing
happening here. And it's not, as I've
said, and again, this isn't necessarily
the most important aspect to it. But
personally, one of the things that
annoys me about that is like it's not
helping my argument. Like, it's not it's
it's an albatross around my neck. And
it's the reason why every goddamn debate
that I'm in, the first thing they're
going to bring up is, "Well, look at all
these people on Twitter who are saying
all this stuff." So, I wish those people
would knock it off. But you also, okay,
we don't need two standards here. One
standard will do just fine. Let's have
one standard and apply this across the
board because the amount of anti-Muslim
bigotry, anti-Palestinian bigotry,
dehumanizing of the entire Palestinian
people has engaged in for 20 years.
Yeah, that's right. And then they're
going to turn around and be like, "Oh my
god, there's all this big there's all
this dehumanizing bigotry out there."
It's like, yeah, none of that is good.
Like that none of that is good. It's not
good for you. It's not good for the
conversation. It's just bad. You don't
want to dehumanize an entire group of
people. Human beings like human beings,
you know, and that should be fairly
obvious. But also, I I will say that,
you know, Donald Trump, who I voted for
and supported in this last election, and
I think has done some really good things
in his first 100 days or so, and some
not so good things. But, you know, I
mean, he he would turn in the debate and
call Joe Biden a Palestinian. He said
this about Chuck Schumer, too. He's
basically a Palestinian. You're like,
whoa. And for all the people who have
been screaming bigotry for the last
decade, no one ever thought to be like,
hey, you know, that's not like an
insult. I know it's not an insult to
call someone a Palestinian. I've met
lots of Palestinians who are really
great people. There's nothing wrong with
them. And again, like if anyone if a
presidential candidate ever like stood
up in the debate and went, "Ah, this
guy's a real Jew." We'd all be like,
"Whoa, what the hell is that?" You don't
get to say that in a political debate.
And so there's this there's a ton of
this. You you have um you know Nikki
Haley going over and signing bombs. Hard
to overstate how much I hate that by the
way. Yeah. Well, right. And and I mean
there are a lot of unreasonable
Palestinians. Of course. There are also
some wonderful a lot of Christian a lot
of Christian Palestinians. A lot of
wonderful Muslim Palestinians.
Um so I hate that. I just want It's
terrible. Yeah. It's terrible. It's
terrible on any side. You don't
dehumanize people like that, right? Um,
and so what's his name? Um, I'm
blinking. What's that? The congressman
in Florida, Randy Fine. Is Fine his last
name? I don't know. But did you see the
stuff he's posted? Like a nut. Oh my
god. It's just, you know, so again.
Okay. You want to talk about He's the
one who's like, "We want to kill all
their children or something." Well,
someone basically like uh I think
someone tweeted like a a picture of a
dead Palestinian baby and he said like,
"Good, we need more or something like
that." It was something really close to
that. I don't I don't want to get this
wrong. Who could vote for someone like
that? Well, Trump endorsed him after
that. After he said it was good that a
baby was dead. I mean, you know, again,
I would love to have him on. Pull up the
actual tweet on that cuz I don't want to
like misremember it, but it was
something really egregious. Um, and
he's, you know, there's just look,
there's a lot of this stuff is how you
get Nikki Haley signing bombs that are
about to go get dropped on women and
children. You're like, I'm sorry. That's
sickening. Like what the hell is
that? Like it's it what are we a part of
some death cult or something? I mean
this is like real. And so of course then
you know Douglas Murray's book is like
democracies and death cults or whatever.
And um which is kind of funny in a way
uh to be
pro-democracies while you're also making
the argument for expertise cuz you would
think like if you're for democracy the
whole point of this the whole point of
experts is to explain it to regular
people who will ultimately have the
authority of deciding which experts are
in charge and which experts are not in
charge. You know, there's a little
contradiction there, but again, this is
my issue. And this is where I think
Tucker, in some way, we're really like
kindred spirits. What a higher IQ you
have than Douglas Murray. It just cracks
me up. Well, he's he's he's got a very
high verbal IQ. He's more talented in a
lot of ways than me. I'm just I'm I'm
telling the truth. Um No, no, but I
mean, that's such a deep contradiction
that I I doubt he's aware of. Probably
not. Um, but I will say this and this is
where I think in some ways this is why
me and you always get along. I think
we're kindred spirits in this way in
some sense. But I really do I mean this
I mean this so sincerely in my soul in
my heart of hearts I'm a crotchety old
right-winger. Yeah. Like that's who I
want to be. Okay. That's I try my best.
I want to be I I'm a I'm not just like a
a
western chauvinist or whatever. Like I
think western society is better than
everything else. I think it's I'm a
libertarian and I think it's one of the
goofiest things about libertarians in
general that they kind of try to run
away from that and be egalitarian to
some degree. That's ridiculous. What are
you talking you believe in individual
liberty? Well, then you don't get to say
every civilization is equal cuz only one
of them respects individual liberty and
that's the better one. Okay, that's the
I by your own definition. That's right.
So screw all this other egalitarianism
is a revolt against nature as the great
Murray Rothbard wrote. It's I'm I'm
against all of that. I don't believe in
relativism. I don't believe in all
cultures are equal. I would like to sit
here and look down on the Muslim world.
That's what I would like to do because
my society is so much better. And if
anything, I'd be lecturing you. You guys
got to do liberty better. You guys don't
really even understand how a free
society works. I'd like to be there.
That's actually what that's what
confirms my bias is like stuff like
that. The problem is I just know too
much about our government and what our
government's done to these people. And
not just what we've done to them, but
that we've been propping up the
Islamists for 40 years. Literally. And
so what are we talking about here? You
can't then turn around and go, "Look at
them. They're a bunch of Islamists." No,
I know what you did. You propped up the
Islamist so you didn't have to deal with
the commies. Like regardless of any of
that. I just again I insist on one
standard for everything. If you're going
to say Hamas is a death cult, what the
hell is the US government? What is the
Israeli government? You get to sit here
as my government has in the last 25
years destroyed Iraq, Afghanistan,
Syria, Libya, Somalia, Yemen, Ukraine,
and now Gaza. That's what my
government's done. I don't get to call
someone else a death cult. I'd like to
I'd like to just look down at them as a
death cult, but sorry, we're the biggest
purveyors of violence in the world, not
Vladimir Putin. And like again, it's
just if you look at these things, you
just have to have one standard and apply
them across the board. This is what I've
been arguing the whole time. And if
you're going to say it's like, okay,
October 7th was horrible. It was
absolutely horrible. Why was it
horrible? Oh yeah, because intentionally
killing innocent civilians is like one
of the most evil things you could ever
do. Okay, then
because people are what matter. Yeah. In
the end, right? And all your your
theories are valid to the extent that
they serve people and when they when
they hurt people then they're invalid,
you know. I think Yeah, I think so. So,
you said that there's this um brand new
media landscape, information landscape,
possibility of true freethinking and
free speech. I think it's all true
because the old control system has
shattered as you said. So, we're living
in this just incredible moment. How long
can it last?
That's a good question. Um, it's very
hard, you know, it's very hard to make
predictions because it's such a new
model, right? And it's like we really
don't know much about this. You know,
one of the things that I find that um,
which, you know, you never want to get
ahead of yourself, especially these
days. Um, and there's so many things
that could happen that it's kind of like
impossible to even know what 2028 looks
like. Yes. But, so I'm assuming right
now JD Vance is probably going to be the
guy. Hope so. Yeah, I hope so too. Um
and so you you look at this dynamic
where you go okay so part
of so you look at Camala Harris's
campaign and say Joe Biden the same way
and Joe Biden specifically because he
was scenile not you know Joe Biden
younger Joe Biden while he was never a
very bright guy maybe would have been a
little bit different politically but
Camal Harris so she kind of famously
infamously now turned down the Joe Rogan
experience she could have been on the
show but she didn't now a A lot of
people uh were saying, "Oh, what a
stupid move." Uh turning that down. I
kind of disagree. I go, "That probably
was the right move." You know, if you're
if you were in if if you had no soul and
you're working for the Camala Harris
campaign and your only objective in this
world was to get her elected and that
invite came in, you're probably going,
"No, no, no, no, no, no. We can't. You
will be exposed. You can't go do this."
The the fact is that Camala Harris, by
the nature of who she is as a person and
by the nature of what she was running on
is not built for a three-hour unedited,
unscripted conversation. You can't do
that, you know, like say whatever you
will about Donald Trump. The man's got a
lot of flaws, but he is built for that.
He could do eight hours, I think,
easily. You know, like he's without
going to the bathroom, right? Yeah.
Which is what I heard. And Joe said he
didn't go before or after. True. I've
never done the Joe Rogan experience and
not gone to the bathroom before or
after. The midbreak leak always. Yeah,
of course. Insane. The guy's not human.
It's unbelievable. But okay, so going
just into 2028, think about what a
change this
is. This is the new standard. To be a
presidential candidate, you have to be
able to go and do a three-hour podcast.
And actually, probably several of them,
right? I mean, Trump did a whole bunch
of them before he got elected, and she
didn't and lost. That's it. And so, that
in itself just changes everything. Now
we have to actually see who you are as a
person, you know, because it doesn't
even matter. It doesn't even matter what
you're talking about for 3 hours. It
doesn't even matter if you're getting
grilled. So true. It's just I get to see
who you are and it comes out. So, okay.
No one can play a role for 3 hours,
right? So, that's the new normal. You
know, that's that in itself is a huge
transformation. I think that has to be
stopped. I think that has to be stopped.
And it, you know, and I don't want to be
like too paranoid, but one of the exp I
think some of the the anger and the hate
online is
um, you know, is organic and it's rooted
in frustration and facts in some cases.
And I, you know, I'm not, it's not all
bad, but some of it is
so clearly
inorganic, it just obviously is, that
you sort of wonder like, is this all a
pretext for shutting it down? I just
can't escape that. Yeah. Look, I I I get
your point and that
certainly, you know, like I never know
what is, you know, a pretext or what is
not, but it's certainly like, oh, this
is going to be used that way. So, like
that's another thing. It's very
shortsighted, you know, for for anyone,
you know, it's kind of like nobody ever,
which I get it. It's it's a little bit
difficult to do cuz it's like second or
third order thinking, but no one ever
kind of thinks about like what the
reaction is going to be to what they're
doing. It's just whether they can get
away with it in the moment, but it's not
the fact that it's like, hey, there is
going to be a correction for this and
almost certainly an overcorrection cuz
that's always the case. You know, it
doesn't seem like any of those uh
leftists ever thought about when they
were pushing like all the trans and the
kids stuff, they'd be like, "What do you
think the result of this is going to
be?" You go, "Oh, here's the result.
Donald Trump winning every swing state.
That's the result. So Oh, and a
handmaid's tail like ultimate ultimately
we're going to have Sharia law. Well,
it's but it does, you know, it's like,
right? No, people always like, really?
How did the Muslims take over Europe?
Because Europe went That's why,
right? Right. Right. You're going to see
white girls begging for Sharia law by
the end. And of course, of course,
there's like there's many factors
involved, but there's no question that
there are these these cycles. And um I
do think there's there's an onus on say
people who do you know want who who were
against the censorship regime and were
against or are against the US is Israeli
you know special relationship it's like
okay but if you've got the freedom to
actually speak about this now understand
a couple things understand that like
you're getting something that
generations before you they never had
generations before you your career
career would have been ruined. You never
would have been allowed to say these
things. And there does that carries with
it a responsibility, you know, it
carries with it a responsibility to do
this in a way that like number one,
you're getting it right. You're not
being sloppy. You're not leading people
down a bad path. Uh you're not
demonizing people who don't deserve to
be demonized, who are not a part of
this. and ultimately that you won't be
handing the excuse to the other side who
obviously as you said needs to re they
need these guys cannot compete in a free
market and so they have to rig the
market in their favor they had forever
they had the market rigged in their
favor for the first time now they kind
of don't they still do a little bit but
they don't in terms of the conversation
they still certainly do in terms of the
power of government but they don't in
terms of the conversation it's like okay
what do you want to do with that Now,
the problem is that so much has been
hidden either intentionally or just
through kind of the a veil of
misdirection um that people are learning
a lot of stuff at once. Yeah. And it's
frying some circuits. And I think the
the thing that I try to meditate on
every single day is that I am commanded
to and intend to treat each individual
as an individual. Period. Period. Yeah.
And when you do that, it keeps you from
going totally insane. And it also opens
you up to the beauty of life, to the joy
of life, which is being surprised by
people and their complexity, good and
bad, and like the capacity of someone
like Steve Wickoff to like do stuff. If
you'd asked me, can Wickoff do that? I
don't know. I mean, I knew Wickoff
before, but like, right, look what
Wickoff is doing. It's incredible. I
don't know. It's just treat people as
individuals. You're commanded to do
that. And I it's I do think it's harder
to do that online. Yes, I I agree. And I
also, you know, it was weird because, so
I, you know, it was an interesting
experience for me this last month or so
because I've never really, you know, I'm
I I think this has helped me in my
career is that I didn't like uh I didn't
blow up out of nowhere. Like I know
other people who have in comedy, I know
people who like, you know, just like
exploded, you know, they were at open
mics with me and then they got an
audition for Saturday Night Live and
then they got it and now they're world
famous. You know, you go literally from
being a complete unknown, not even an
established comedian, a newer comedian
who can't even work the clubs to being
like world famous. I've seen people have
that. How'd that work for Britney
Spears? Pretty bad. Well, especially bad
when you're young. That's the worst time
for it to happen. It happened to me,
actually. Right. Yeah. Well, that's
right. You You had that. Luckily, I was
humiliated along the way, so more
normal, but but that's the antidote for
it in a weird way, right? Because it's
all ego stuff. So the antidote for
blowing up your ego is destroying your
ego. It's which is is very painful, but
it's good. Like a hangover, the hangover
is actually getting you healthy. It
sucks, but the hangover is the cure. So
getting drunk was the problem. That's
why it's hard to become addicted to
cocaine. People seem to pull it off
anyway, but I never understood that. How
could you become addicted to this? You
feel horrible. I know it is. Well,
that's right. Sorry. Sorry to say. No,
but that's that's exactly right. But so
okay so for me I would it was always
like a like a logical progression like
one step more one step more my profile
kind of rose but this you know this
thing was the biggest thing I've ever
done in my career it was like the
biggest reaction to any show or any
debate that I've ever done cuz it was on
Rogan's podcast and he doesn't usually
do debates and it was the most
contentious issue of our day. So, it
became this big thing. And now I'm at a
place where, you know, I'm 42. I have a
great wife. I got two little kids that I
play with every day. I have a nice
house. My my life is like set up. Um I'm
I'm an adult. this isn't. So, but when
the kind of hate attack, this
coordinated attack, and everyone who's
attacking me just happens to have like,
you know, their name written in Hebrew
letters and a Jewish star, you know, in
their bio, and they're all saying the
most vicious stuff. I've been sitting
here and I'm like, "Wow, dude. If I were
25 Oh, yeah. and I wasn't Jewish. I
could very easily see my response to
this just being like, man,
screw these people, you know? And like
now, I'm not saying that would be
correct, but it's just like you feel
that because that's the impulse when
you're like attack, but like what you
just said, I think is the key point,
which is that like if believing in
individualism is like a grounding force.
It kind of inoculates you against
collectivist nonsense. And when I say
that, see, one of the problems here now
is that the left, which is what they do,
is they attack terms and concepts. And
so whenever you think about something,
you start thinking about the lefty
version of it. And it's like, no, no,
no, not that at all. So the left kind of
made individualism. They they kind of
mixed it together with like this like
self-actualization type thing like oh
all that really matters is like whatever
you're feeling and whatever you're
feeling is correct and it's correct
because you're feeling it and you're
feeling it because it's correct and
that's like that's like the devil.
That's like you do not want to go down
that path. You do not want to ever say
that like well if you feel something
inside of you then that must be true.
That's essentially what the trans thing
was all based on right was this view
that well if you feel it then it must be
true. like that's not where you want
that's that's the path to hell. You
don't want to go down that path. You
know, that's no that's it's not true
that because you feel something it
therefore should be actualized and
that's terrible. However, more old
school individualism like in the
classical liberal enlightenment
tradition is understanding that the
individual is a is a unit of analysis
that the individ individuals are how we
exist. We act as individuals. We suffer
as individuals. We collectivize as
individuals. We are born and die as
individuals. Exactly. And so and and
that collectivism, what collectivism
used to mean was the idea that the
individual ought to be subservient to
the larger group. Not that groups don't
exist. Not that we shouldn't come
together. Of course, we come we create
families. We create churches,
communities. All of these things are
wonderful. But when you do understand
like true individualism like on that
like that individuals ought to have
rights. Yes. Right. Things like that. It
does it shields you from a lot of this
nonsense. Well the question is does the
does the human being have a soul. Yes.
Exactly. Something that is distinct from
all others. There are billions of human
beings in this world. You are
fundamentally different not just in your
fingerprints and iris scan but in your
soul. This thing that we can't quite
define but that we know is real. Yes.
And that's why you have a right. That's
why you have right. That's the only
reason. That's the only reason. I I I
remember I was watching um as I
mentioned earlier, I was watching you
and Brett Weinstein. So I was just uh
yesterday was watching this and there
was one point where Brett said, and I
think he was completely right about this
and you guys kind of agreed, but he said
uh he goes, you know, the the claim that
Israel has a right to exist has always
seemed a little bit strange to me. And
he was like, I mean, they do exist, but
do they have a right to exist? Exactly.
country. Well, I think the point is
almost this. Countries don't have
rights. Individuals have rights. You're
using an individualist term and then
attempting to apply it to a collective
government. That's not how it works.
Every single individual who has Israeli
citizenship has a right to exist. Every
single individual who does not have
Israeli citizenship has a right to
exist. Every Palestinian, this is why
people make these arguments. There never
was a country called Palestine. Totally
irrelevant. has nothing to do with
anything. Doesn't matter if there was a
government or a country. It doesn't
matter where the lines on a map are
drawn. Now, again, this I'm not making a
lefty argument here. I'm not saying
therefore you can't have immigration
restrictions. Of course, you can cuz a
group of people can own a plot of land
and they get to decide who can come and
who can't come. That's right. But the
point is that if you're trying to apply
rights to collectives, you're going to
realize that it doesn't make sense. And
the same way they do this constantly
where they apply things like uh they'll
say does Israel have a right to defend
itself? You go no individuals have a
right to defend themselves and by the
way when I defend myself I don't have
the right to aggress upon other innocent
people who happen to be in the general
vicinity of the person who I want to
defend myself against. Exactly. That are
distinct but equal to mine. Exactly. And
that's really all it takes to kind of
cure you of a lot of this collectivist
nonsense. Yes. And there's there is
something about the form though. I do
think form matters in the same way
reading a book on on Kindle is a
different experience from reading one in
print. It just is. Wish it wasn't. Uh
there's something about the form of
social media that disagregates people
from their souls.
And I or at least that's my experience
of it. Like you can just get so pissed
off
um that you forget that every person
what was you were telling me this at
breakfast this morning. You're you're
telling me about the preamble to Daryl
Cooper's World War II series. Can you
say that? Will you say that? Yeah, he's
so he's uh he hasn't put the series out
yet. I think he's he's working on it. I
hope it's out soon. Um but so Daryl, as
he talked about on your show, is putting
together this big World War II series.
And when Daryl Cooper does this, we're
having him back this summer. I can't
wait. I can't wait. Just also just I'm
excited for the reaction. Uh, but I
actually think a lot of, you know, a lot
of people are probably gonna be
disappointed because he's not gonna give
them, you know, like it's weird going
full Nazi. Well, that's the thing. Of
course not. Of course. It's weirdly the
only people, by the way, it's so funny
because it's this symbiotic relationship
that you see all the time. It's like the
only people who want him to It's like
the the Nazis and the Zionists are the
ones who are like, "Please be a Nazi.
Please be a please so that we have
this." you know, everybody else is like,
I wonder if they're getting paid from
the same source. I I suspect some of
them are throwing that out there. In
fact, I don't suspect I know. I'm sure a
lot of them are. Yeah. Um, and that's,
you know, that's part of this new
landscape that, but so he does this, um,
he put out the prologue for the series
and he had this wonderful part in it.
Um, I hope I can kind of do it justice,
but it was so beautiful the way he said
it, but he was talking about like when
you start to think about um,
you know, the people in Germany in World
War II and how there there were little
three-year-old girls and 8-year-old boys
and there were women and there were all
the, you know, and if you start to kind
of humanize them there's or if you start
to dehumanize them as many were making
the attempt to do, he said, you you
might find yourself having two competing
voices. in your head. Like on one level
you go, "Well, of course there were
innocent women and innocent children and
of course these are people just like
anybody else." And then you might have
some other voice that goes, "Well, they
were Germans and it was World War II, so
what are you doing trying to humanize
anyone?" And he goes, "Okay, that second
voice is not you. That's not you. That
is a spirit outside of you acting on
you. And just so you know, it's the same
spirit that was acting on the Nazis when
they were talking about Jews. And that's
and dude, it's so funny for people
trying to demonize this guy. Like this
is who he actually is when he's talking
to his audience and he's got a message
to give them. This is the message he's
giving them. And I man, he's just so
right about that. And it's the same
thing as like when you see like some
hardcore Israel supporter and then some
hardcore like radical pro Palestinian
and like they're going like all the Jews
blah blah blah blah blah and then
they're going all the Arabs blah blah
blah blah blah. And you're like you're
the same person. both of you are the
same person. And I'm not trying to
completely equate it because obviously
the Palestinians have lost in this
conflict. They're the ones who have
been, you know, truly, you know, they've
been over in a way that the
Israelis haven't. But anytime that
you're like dehumanizing an entire group
of people, setting the stage to then
justify some type of brutal aggression
that could not be justified without
dehumanizing them first. You are
participating in the same exercise that
is is the reason throughout all of human
history that we've had genocides and
wars and ethnic cleansing campaigns and
just horrible atrocities. Don't do that.
Whatever you do, if you ever find
yourself doing that, don't do it. We're
not allowed to do that. Yeah. I mean, we
play you play with fire when you do
that. And I and I've stayed silent a lot
as I've seen it happen. And I feel shame
thinking back on it when Osama bin
Laden's wife was shot. I remember
thinking, okay, she got shot married to
Osama bin Laden. That's pretty risky
proposition being married to Osama bin
Laden and living in Pakistan. Got it. So
I guess, you know, there are risks and
she knew what they were. On the other
hand, I'm not cheering an unarmed woman
getting shot to death under any
circumstances. And I don't I don't want
anyone in my country doing that either
because I love my country and I love the
people who live here and they're my my
countrymen. And um and I think it's bad
to just stay silent. Okay. But don't
anybody who encourages you to take
pleasure at the death of another person
is, you know, acting on behalf of forces
that we should be rejecting. Yeah. You
know, I said this uh I don't care who it
is. I I was on Lex Freriedman's uh
podcast um pretty recently. That guy's a
good interviewer. Actually, he's great.
He's a great interview. Everyone makes
fun of Lex Freedman. I made fun of Lex
Freedman probably or I heard other
people do it. I didn't say anything. And
then I was interviewed by Lex Freedman.
I was like, "This guy's weirdly good at
this." Really good. It's easy for people
to look at it and think they could do
it, too. It's a skill to interview
somebody. And he is. Look what he gets.
He gets Did he get good? I haven't seen
it. Did he get good stuff? Oh, it was
great. And he was, you know, he was
asking me like he started really getting
into the detail of like what I believe a
just war is and what an immoral war is
and why is that? And the example I used,
which I think like I I I know you
because I've heard you talk about this
stuff too. think you'll agree with me,
but I was like, "Okay, let's take World
War II and let's say that like not only
is the official narrative right, let's
let's tweak some things here. It's so
much more right than you know, the Nazis
are, if it's possible, they're even
worse than the real Nazis were. And if
it's possible, they actually were going
to take over the world." And actually,
we would all be speaking German. Like,
let's say not only were they going to
take over England, they were going to
cross the Atlantic and come take over
North America also. and the entire world
would have fallen into Nazi
totalitarianism had they won the war.
And let's say in order to stop the
Nazis, we had a way where we could do it
where no innocent civilians were killed
except one. You know, we could we could
literally just we could take out the
Nazis, save the entire world from
totalitarianism. By the way, in this
model, there's no Joseph Stalin. Joseph
Stalin's a great guy and the the Soviets
are a free country. There's no moral
questions about who we're working with.
Just all of that. All we had to do was
we could take out the Nazis by dropping
this one super bomb. Um but one
six-year-old girl would be killed. Okay,
this is so I've made it the most
clear-cut war in human history. Um in
that scenario, I guess you'd go, look,
we have to do this. We have no choice
other the whole world will fall to
totalitarianism or the whole world can
be saved and one six-year-old girl is
going to get killed. Okay, I can
understand being like, we're making an
impossible decision. and we have to do
this. Every year on the anniversary of
that war, we should all like weep to
ourselves. We should all feel horrible
that we had to do that cuz it's a
six-year-old girl got killed. Like I
have a six-year-old girl. This is the
most This is the most horrible thing in
the world that you would ever like kill
a six-year-old girl. I mean, my god, I
would set the whole world on fire to
stop someone from doing anything to my
little girl. And like so if that were in
this very clear-cut scenario, not the
complexity of real history in this
scenario that I'm laying out, we should
still all be nothing but pity and sorrow
that it ever came to that and we should
rack our brains every day thinking, was
there any alternative to that? Was there
any way that we could have done that
without this little girl getting killed?
And like people could say that's kind of
like pie in the sky or hippish-ish or
whatever. But at the very least, dude,
when you're talking about like
inflicting this level of human suffering
on people, like the the onus is always
on the people who are advocating for it
to absolutely prove beyond the shadow of
a doubt that there's no other option
that we've exhausted everything else we
could do. It has to be this. And if you
come to the conclusion it has to be
this, you should still be really sad and
somber about it. this spiking the
football stuff, having a Bob Hope
special after a war, the stuff that
America got involved in after the Second
World War that became like kind of like
this business of war. This this we're
spiking the football. It's just like
it's disgusting. And then you tell me
about how some other society is a death
cult. Like let's examine our own. Well,
it is disgusting. And I think um you
don't have to know the right answer
going forward to know what the wrong
answer is, right? And it's just again
you want to treat you want to approach
life and state craft and bureaucracy and
everything in your life with humility.
Like I don't always know the outcome.
Not God. I have limited power. I think I
know that murdering a six-year-old girl
will bring world peace, but what if it
doesn't? Right. Right. Or whatever. I
think dropping an atomic bomb on the off
chance doesn't work out chance. I think
you know dropping the atom bomb will
stop an invasion of Japan. Okay. I think
dimming the sun will stop global
warming. But maybe I'm wrong, you know?
Maybe I'm wrong because I'm a person and
it's when people stop remembering the
limits to their own wisdom and power
that things like that you get genocides
and stuff. Well, also again, like I said
before, cuz this is always just my it's
the weird way my neurotic brain works or
whatever, but I just like can't like I
have this consistency obsession or
whatever, but you know, I was listening
to your uh your show with Matt Walsh uh
the other day and I I kind of I did
appreciate some of the things he said
about me and the debate with Douglas. It
was for a Daily Wire employee. I think
that's about as nice. That's about as
good a reaction as I'm I'm going to get.
that he was like at one point saying
that he was like, "Well, you know, so
then the real important the good point
that he said that Douglas Murray made
was when he asked me, um, well then how
do you get rid of Hamas?" Like what's
your plan? So number one, it's not a
point, it's a question. But then Matt
Walsh was saying like, "Well, look, I
can understand you saying you're against
what Israel is doing, but then what
should they do to get rid of Hamas?" And
it it's just interesting to me to see
any conservative going, "Wait a minute.
So you're
against these babies being killed." And
it's like, "Yes, yes. Let's call this, I
don't know, let me think of a term for
it. The pro-life position. Let's call it
that. Remember, remember the
foundational principle that you've been
talking about for your entire career?"
But wait, hold on. So, first of all,
before which, by the way, there are lots
of other ways to deal with Hamas,
obviously. But no, actually I don't have
to solve that problem before I can
object to killing innocent children,
right? Like no, it is not incumbent on
the pro-life person to work out a plan
for like the uh um the adoption or the
college or the No, actually no. I'm
allowed for my starting point to be you
can't murder babies, right? I mean, come
on. Yes. Like what do we And you know
the other thing which I did want to say
is that I do think um and look by the
way I I as I've saying we're both here
kind of coming out against um the
excesses on both sides. I'm against
racial collectivism. I'm against
collective guilt. Um against collective
judgment even yes collective punishment
for sure. Um but so like I'm not saying
you don't have to like you should you
shouldn't hate Jews and you don't even
have to hate Israelis. I think you
shouldn't hate Israel. Oh, there's lots
of great people there. They're awesome.
There's lots of really really great
people there. Um and um and their
government's just done a lot of messed
up stuff, but like so is ours and so
have lots of governments around the
world. Probably all of them. Um probably
a direct correlation to how much power
they have and how much evil stuff they
can do. Exactly. Exactly. You know, I do
think it's a little bit of a copout for
some people who I like very much. You
know, like I I like Matt Walsh. I've
never met him, but I like I think his
documentaries are great. I think he's
been an important voice in the national
conversation. like a very important
voice. Um, I like Tim P very much. I've
done his shows lots of times. I've met
him lots of times. I think he's a great
guy. Um, but there are these guys who
will basically say like, I'm a
non-interventionist. I only care about
America. I don't care about these other
so I don't care. I don't have an opinion
on it. And it just seems to me like
that's a copout. It's kind of like in
2006, you don't have an opinion on Iraq.
I don't care about Iraq. I only care
about America. It's like, well, we're in
Iraq right now. Well, I agree with that.
That's right. And that's why I have felt
from the beginning kind of like
shanghide into this. I mean, I don't
care on the level that I just want to
focus on my own country, but if we're
deeply involved in it, then I have an
obligation to care if it's my job to pay
attention to what our country is doing,
which it is. So, right. Well, that's
Listen, I have no argument to anybody
who goes, I'm just not going to pay
attention to politics. My my best friend
in the world is Lewis J. Gomez, who came
on your show and you he's the best. And
literally, and this is he is being
completely sincere when you asked him on
your show, you go like, "So, what are
your politics?" And he goes, "Politics
is gay." And that's literally his only
answer. And I have in all of my years,
I'm literally I'm his best friends. I
don't have a counter to that. I go,
"That is a pretty good point. I'm
married to a woman like that." Yes.
Yeah. Me, too. You know, and like, so
it's like I have no argument against
that. If you but if you're in this world
where we're talking about these things
then you you don't get to just say well
look taking this opinion which is the
obvious logical conclusion of my stated
principles but if I take them to their
conclusion that will cause me grief.
Therefore I'm going to say I don't
really care about that. Because look
here's the thing. If you don't if you do
care about being America first and you
care about America not getting into
another stupid catastrophic war in the
Middle
East, well, who's pushing us in that
direction? And this is not a conspiracy
theory. This is like totally out in the
open, right? I mean, the longest serving
prime minister in Israeli history is
John M uh Benjamin Netanyahu. Okay?
Right? Benjamin Netanyahu came to the US
Congress in 2002 and testified as a
regional expert that we should go
overthrow Saddam Hussein in Iraq because
democracy will sweep the region. He then
also said in front of a congressional
testimony that we should overthrow
Mammar Gaddafi in Libya and that we
should overthrow the Mullers in Iran.
Okay. He's been advocating, he's been
John McCain, he's been Dick Cheney this
whole time advocating that we fight this
next war and this next war and this next
war. They're right now. What was it? uh
uh 3 4 weeks ago, they drew up war
plans, including us, to go to war with
Iran. It's only because Donald Trump,
who seems to be willing to help them
ethnically cleanse the Gaza Strip, but
said, "That's a bridge too far for me.
I'm not going to war here." And so,
thank God, now we're in negotiations
with the Iranians. But if you know this,
then like for you to be a
non-interventionist America first, it
has to at least come with and hey, we
should cut Israel off and we should not
listen to Benjamin Netanyahu. Like I'm
sorry that's just totally reasonable or
Kirst or any of them. That's right. So
okay, just take the position which is
the obvious one. We should stop funding
what Israel is doing. We should stop
propping them up. It's been quite a
while. The country was created in 1948.
It is 2025. You can either go at this
alone or you can't. Come on. And those
are fair terms by the way. I mean those
are the terms that the rest of us live
our lives on. Yeah. you know, I mean,
you you make budget decisions in your
home on the basis of what you can
afford. Yeah. And there's some things
you don't do, you know. Um, no, all of
us mere mortals have those constrictions
on our behavior. Like they're the things
I want to do and they're the things that
I think I'm capable of doing. Yeah. Big
difference. And if I was sitting here
and giving like these bravado, you know,
infused speeches about all of the things
that I can do, but really it relied on
me borrowing the money from you in order
to do it. You'd be like, "Hey, maybe
stop giving this speech. Maybe maybe
Benjamin Netanyahu should stop going to
the UN and going, there's nowhere that
Israel can't touch." Actually, there's
lots of places Israel can't touch. I
know. There's nowhere the US can't
touch. I know. I just think it's it's
getting too out in the open. And and I
do I mean, I guess I fret too much in
general, but I I do worry now that it's
like super obvious Yeah. what's going on
that things will just devolve into like
somewhere very ugly. Well, that's why if
you have any sense about you and you
don't want to see things devolve into
something ugly, that's why you want to
make sure we don't get into another war
right now. Totally agree. It's
unbelievable. It's It's so It's
remarkable. I I'll tell you this, right?
And I I'm somebody who
has really, you know, been focused on
this stuff for a long time. Um, you
know, I mean, I host I do a show four
days a week and I I'm always reading
about this stuff and I've done all the
background reading. I mean, I know a lot
about like the neoconservatives and what
motivates them, what their worldview
was. I will tell you the first thing
that really surprised me and I was I was
genuinely and I hate the
neoconservatives like I'm not it's not
that I don't understand how evil what
they believe is. I was really surprised
that the Ukraine
thing, the Nazis in Ukraine didn't mess
with them at all. I was shocked. I was
really surpris you know, I know why they
support all the wars they have
supported. I thought that for the
neoconservatives, real deal, not even
neo-Nazis, Nazis like the grandsons of,
you know, the Nazis who perpetrated the
Holocaust in Ukraine, proudly wearing
swastikas uh tattoos and waving flags. I
mean like they threw their support
behind the Azovv battalion. I this was
very str like this was a line to me I
was like oh wow they'll really go that
far. But I'll tell you I am blown away
by the fact that anybody who is out
there shrieking about the rise in
anti-semitism is not wise enough to go
we cannot fight a war with Iran right
now. Because if we get into a war right
now that's clearly on Israel's behalf
after 25 years of terror wars which were
pretty clearly at least partially on you
know I'm not I'm not going to go quite
as far as like Jeffrey Sachs although I
get you know he's an expert and I'm not
so I guess he's right and I'm not but
you know I wouldn't quite say that you
know we outsourced our foreign policy to
Israel like I you know there's a lot of
truth to that statement. Was it was it
Mir Shimemer or Saxs who said I view
Benjamin Netanyahu as the worst US
president of the 21st century?
It's pretty hilarious, but and there's
there's a lot of truth to that, but it's
not like 100% true. It's like, okay, but
look, it's obviously, as I just said,
Israel has been using its considerable
influence to convince us to go to war in
Iraq and in Libya, in Syria, in and all
of these places. I think Yemen was more
for the Saudis. Afghanistan was our own
thing. that those wars particularly
Israel was really on board with. And if
we were to go get into a war with Iran
right now, which will be a much bigger
disaster than any of the previous terror
wars, there's there's really no argument
about that. It's Iran is just not a
pushover like uh these other countries
at all. Yeah, that's right. They can
take out a lot of our guys and then and
then what do we do after that? And well,
they could also destroy Israel with
conventional weapons. Yeah, there's
there's a lot that they can do. Um, but
if we actually go to this war on behalf
of Israel, I mean, what do you think
that does to the level of anti-semitism?
Now, by the way, I'm not that's not the
number one reason not to do it. That's
like the number six reason not to do it.
But for these people who are so
concerned, they're so concerned about
the existential threat to Israel. Well,
here's the thing, right? Hamas, while
they did pull off October 7th, which was
by far the biggest attack Hamas has ever
pulled off, um Hamas was never an
existential threat to Israel. But this
actually is I agree what they're doing
right now in some sick self-fulfilling,
you know, uh, prophecy. This actually is
creating like an existential threat to
them. I completely agree. I if I live
there,
um, and I think enough of Jerusalem that
I would like to live in Jerusalem. I
think it's the most incredible city in
the world. I I truly love it. But I
would leave because I think I think
they're um, and I said this to an
Israeli friend of mine recently, like
I'm a little bit concerned. Not that
it's my job to be concerned for your
country. Lots of other people have that
taken care of, but just as a bystander,
it's like, whoa, this is not good. Yeah.
And um I didn't, you know, he had no
sense of what I was talking about, but I
uh Yeah. No, I think the one area where
I agree with Mark Leavin um is that
Israel is really in danger. And I think
it's people like Mark Levin who are
putting Israel in danger. My view. Yeah,
I think I think that's maybe I'm wrong,
but No, I think that's right. I think
just like I was saying at Douglas
Murray, it's actually like, "No, you're
creating fertile ground for
anti-semitism by telling me I'm not
allowed to criticize a guy with a Jewish
last name in the same sense that you
claim some Jewish ancest." But that's so
low. It's so low to debate like that.
You're the famous debater. Yeah. And
like in an op-ed after you lose a debate
or not even lose after you refuse to
debate and kind of be clown yourself and
then you're writing an op-ed and you
don't take on one argument I made but
you do attack whether I'm really Jewish
as the by the way as he'll criticize the
just asking questions people. Well what
the hell is that? What the hell is
that's me by the way. That's who they're
talking about. Right. I know. I know.
It's all it's all it's so funny. The
first time I heard that I was like,
"Wait, are you actually mad that I asked
a question? Isn't anyone who's tries
who's trying to shut down questions,
isn't that person by definition on the
wrong side?" Yeah. Well, you know what's
funny? Like, what world are we living
in? Well, I've lived too long. I should
have died 10 years ago. Well, you know
what's so funny about it, too, is that
there's because there's all these
different techniques for control, and
one of them is just framing. like how
you frame a conversation really like
with the Israel thing it's obvious right
like look I mean however you feel about
the conflict the fact is that Israel has
occupied Palestine since 1967 you know
okay I know the no we disengaged in 2005
no you didn't but like whatever I'm not
even like I've had this debate enough
times I'm just saying this is the fact
is that Israel's occupied Palestine
since 1967 that's the fact and then the
conversation they go does Israel have a
right to defend itself and you're like
well that's a hell of a way to start you
know like you're the ones doing the
occupying and you want to start every
debate with whether you have a right to
defend yourself. Okay. But with all
these things there's kind of you know
like this is what was interesting to me
about the the conversation with you and
Brett Weinstein about the you know about
God versus atheism and all this stuff is
that like so people it's very easy to
have the framing of going like oh you're
telling me you believe there's an
invisible man up in the sky who created
all things. That's pretty goofy right?
It's like yeah if you just frame it like
that sure it's pretty goofy. I'm sorry.
What's your belief? You believe
everything used to fit on the top of a
pin and then it exploded into
everything. Everything came from nothing
and then exploded into This is just as
ridiculous as anything anyone's ever
believed. So like as soon as you look at
both sides and apply the same standard
to both and you know there's been a one
thing is a very interesting dynamic to
me. I've seen this a lot when people
will try to attack you where what
they'll do is they'll pull like kind of
the five things you've said that seem
like almost the goofiest of all the
things. Well, he said this thing about
like a demon attacking him. Okay, he
said this thing about you know like
Right. Right. But sorry, I didn't want
to. No, but look but look even Yes. in
itself but like okay that sounds like an
outlandish claim like I'm not but then
it's almost like they're trying to
ignore the totality. I see this a lot
with Bobby Kennedy. This has been one of
the most interesting things about Bobby
is that the people who attack him, they
pick on the five, you know, goofiest
things they can find that they think he
said, you know, he blamed the wifi for
this or he said something about whatever
the COVID targeting certain genetics and
not other genetics. And it's like, look,
even if I grant you there are these five
claims, which I don't know if I, you
know, Bobby said some things that I'm
like, I don't know if he's right about
that or not. Right? It seems kind but
the but they're trying to remove the
central thing that he said and the
central this is Trump in a nutshell too.
Right. The central thing that Bobby
Kennedy said is that we spend more money
than any other country on healthcare and
we're the sickest. Exactly. Now until
you can take on that you're never going
to win by just trying to knock out these
other good because at least he's talking
about the major thing. And by the way
not only did he say that none of you
have ever mentioned that. I've watched
every presidential campaign. It's never
once come up. Well, and in fact,
everything they do mention is a way to
avoid mentioning it. Exactly. But we had
a whole we had a whole debate in this
country about health insurance and this
never came up. We had the Obamacare
debate and like and no one even ever
mentioned I didn't know it until Bobby
came on my show. Yeah. Me neither. He
was banned. Yeah. No, but I have to say
the thing that I have
learned really above all other things is
the only way to assess a claim is on the
basis of whether or not it's true.
Right. Right. not on whether or not I
want to hear it, on whether or not I've
thought of it before, whether or not I'm
shocked by the fact that you asked the
question. The only thing that matters
is, is it true? Now, can I know? Most of
the time, no, I can't know. But I want
my orientation, the way I approach each
question to be the same every single
time, which is, is that true? And the
second I stop caring about whether it's
true, then I'm acting on behalf of evil.
Right. It's that simple. Right. Right.
Yeah. No, I I completely So when Bobby
Kennedy's like, "Oh, CO's, you know,
targeted on the basis of genes." I was
like, "Really? Is that true?" Yeah.
Well, I kind of felt I felt the same
way. Um, and I and I think particularly
what and I think it's very similar to
talking about the 9/11 truth or stuff
with Jesse Ventur. It's like what what
ends up happening is that after you're
kind of redpilled about so much, yes,
the claims don't seem quite as
outlandish.
That's not saying that they're right,
you know, like and I've I, you know,
with with the 9/11 conspiracy stuff,
I've never been like completely sold. I
think there are a lot of people who jump
to conclusions that are and like
actually the evidence isn't nearly as
strong as you think it is. You're kind
of you're doing what everyone does where
you start with a conclusion and then you
work your way backward from there. And
there's a lot of that, but at the same
time, it's like the people who go,
"Well, our government would never."
You're like, "No, that doesn't work
anymore, dude. Sorry." So yeah, they
totally would. They actually totally
would. I'm not even saying they did in
this case, but they totally would. Or
it's so painful to reexamine the
worldview I've built on what might be a
fake assumption that I'm not going to do
it. I'm going to yell at you instead for
challenging that worldview. Like that
doesn't work either because it's already
happened. I've You can only lose your
virginity once. Right. Right. And once
you realize that the Warren Commission
really was a cover up. I mean, it just
was. And on the base of evidence, I've
concluded that. Then it's like, okay, if
if the US government will hide details
about the murder of a democratically
elected US president, then there's
really nothing Yeah. that they wouldn't
do, right? And then if you and then the
Nixon one is a big onetwo punch, you
know, because you realize that like, oh,
the guy who became the villain, you
know, like the guy who was like supposed
to be remembered as the most corrupt
president was actually the most popular
president who was totally set up was
was, you know, and you're like, okay,
well then we're just not living in the
country that So I came to that
independently having known a lot of
those people. I know Bob Woodward
personally and I I lived in that world
for my whole life. And um Nixon had the
highest popular vote percentage of any
president in American history. I didn't
in 72. I just didn't even know that. And
when I found out that Bob Woodward was a
naval intelligence officer detailed to
the Nixon White House and then the next
year gets the biggest story in
journalism history handed to him. And
how old was he? 30 28 something like
that. That happens a lot. That's totally
That's totally normal, right? And throw
was the deputy director of the FBI and
the guy they installed as president was
on the warrant commission. Yeah.
Yeah. I never liked Gerald Ford because
of the withdrawal from Saigon on April
30th, 1975. I just thought that was like
everything about that was so ugly. But
whatever. Yes, I agree. So, it's not
enough to say I'm not allowed to think
something, right? or that or or once you
but once you recognize those things it's
just impossible.
It's impossible to reconstruct the image
of America that you once had. You're
like, "Oh, that's not at all what and
that doesn't make you an anti-American
bigot any more than saying like
criticizing a government does not make
you a bad person." No, this is
it's this is um what's it? It's
Frederick Bastiot stuff. Like this was
already figured out a long time ago. uh
society and the government are not
interchangeable things. They are
different. You know, criticizing Joe
Biden is not criticizing America. I'm
not criticizing the hills and the lakes.
I'm criticizing this one scenile
criminal or my neighbors or my
relatives, people I love. There's so
many of them. So, last last question.
You made reference to uh the Brett
Weinstein conversation we had last week
about um creationism versus Darwinism,
etc., etc., the existence of God. Do you
find in your life, this is a quiz I give
a lot of people, more people you know
personally talking about God than you
did say 10 years ago? Yes. Um and I am
that person. I mean I was an atheist 10
years ago. What happened? I had my
daughter. Yeah. Um that's you know is I
found God the day my wife delivered our
first uh child and um which is a fairly
common experience. Uh I know other
people who have had the same thing were
atheists until that moment. And um what
what can what changed in you? So all
right so it was uh basically so I met my
so you know it's fairly normal story but
I I met my wife and we got engaged and
then um we got married. Um so my wife's
like the most amazing chick. She's just
great. And I know this is it's always a
thing to say it's like my wife's better
than your wife type thing but everybody
who knows my wife and I don't mean you.
I've never met your wife but but she is
better. And just kidding. Uh, no. I
don't I don't hear people compliment
their spouses enough, actually. I don't
think everyone always says that. I wish
people that more often. Well, I do. You
know, it's not me. She's really just the
best. Everyone who knows her would
agree. I mean, like, it's just like
she's like the most amazing woman. She's
just gorgeous and she's really super
smart and she's really sweet and kind.
Um, and she's just like she she puts
everyone above herself. She's like I I
really hit the lottery with her. And I
was never, you know, I was like
habitually single. I was never a
relationship guy and I never really
wanted to get married. I kind of always
had this view of like, you know, women
are trying to change you or trying to
control you. Every girl that I ever
dated always wanted a relationship and
then they always wanted me to not do
this or not do that. And my wife was
just she just had my back. She just
always like wanted to make my life
better and she did. And I just I fell in
love with her and I I was like I'm going
to spend the rest of my life with this
woman. And so then we uh when she got
pregnant, I was just very excited. It
was like, you know, we just got married.
I got a a baby on the way. Um I was just
like, "This is going to be this is the
best. Like I'm really excited to to do
this." And um and I was right. It was
the best thing I've ever done. And so
the uh the day that uh was um well, she
was over her due date. So then they they
scheduled to come in to induce pregnancy
cuz they don't let you go too long these
days. Um which I guess is maybe they're
right about that. I don't know. But
anyway, so we go to the hospital. They
get the ptocin out. Yes, that's right.
So, we're at uh Lennox Hill Hospital in
the Upper East Side of Manhattan. And
um by the way, I should I should add
just leading into the story over the I
had been like a militant atheist when I
was younger. I had started to open up my
mind a little bit to being like I I was
seeing some of the holes in the atheist
arguments, but I still was not like a
believer in God. And so, we were at
Lennox Lennox Hill Hospital, and this is
this was the first one. This is how it
started was um the uh the
anesthesiologist came in to give my wife
an epidural and at Lennox Hill or at
least this guy they asked me to leave
the room. Um they said they ask the
fathers to leave the room when they do
it, you know, cuz they're they're
putting a spinal thing in and they have
to be very very precise to see it.
Right. So like and and they don't want I
guess they don't want you there to react
cuz then she might react and so they
don't want to so I go at and she can't
see what's happening. Right. she can't
see, but she could see you seeing. And
so they want people with a straight
poker face who have seen this a lot of
times and are not watching it happen to
their wife and baby, you know, so it's a
reasonable ask. But so I go I go out and
I'm in the the hallway in the maternity
ward at Lennox Hill Hospital and I'm
just and it just hit me. It was like for
the first time I guess I had not really
thought about this. I was just so
excited to get my family started. But
for the first time, it hit me that like
something could go
wrong and that I could leave here alone,
you know, like something could go wrong
that I could lose the baby. I could lose
my wife and it's totally out of my
control. And like as this started
hitting me, I started like really
getting emotional. And um it's like I'm
out there and I'm like I'm crying in the
hallway of this maternity ward and
immediately I just started talking to
God. Um, and I just started uh not just
talking to God, but like negotiating
with God. And I was just like, you know,
like like, dear Lord, if you if you make
sure that they're okay, I'm going to do
like I'm going to be the best husband
and the best father and I will do this
and you know, like all the different
things in your life. Have you ever
prayed before? No. Never once in my
life. Um, and it all, you know, like all
the things that you know you're supposed
to be doing that you're not doing that
well, you know, like I was like, "Okay,
I'll clean this up. You know, I'll call
my mom more often. I'll do this thing.
I'll do." And so anyway, so I just
started like praying to God and not just
praying but like negotiating. So anyway,
everything was fine with that. But my my
wife, this was the first of many times
she had a very there were a bunch of
complications in the pregnancy. Everyone
came out okay, thank God. Um but so I
ended up talking to God a lot that day
and then just like as the days went on,
it's so interesting. It's organic
lifetime of not believing and then yeah
just start and so this is almost like
what intellectually you know converted
me later was I was like hey what the
hell was that I mean I could I can't
look back and just ignore that and um
and there was one you know like again
I'm I'm almost a little uncomfortable
talking about these things cuz I like
talking about things where I have like a
real tight argument that I can prove is
irrefutable profound argument actually
it was something where I was like look
so in the moment when it was really all
on the line and out of my control. I
wasn't thinking maybe God exists. I knew
for a 100% certainty unlike nothing I've
ever known in my life that not only did
I know that God existed, but I knew what
he wanted from me. Like I knew what my
negotiating power in this was is that I
could pro, you know what I'm saying?
Like I could promise I'll be a good
person. I'll do So not only did I know
God existed, I knew that God wanted me
to be a good person. And there was and
look this is something that people who
have found God know and people who don't
believe in God maybe will not accept but
there is something to when you open
yourself up like that to
God like you find out that he's real and
it's not like he speaks to you or he
hallucinates I don't like see a fiery
bush and the words of God started
talking but like he fills you like you
when you open yourself like that to it
you get filled by it and there's No,
there's no more debate in your mind over
whether that's a real phenomenon or not.
You're like any more than like if I were
to leave here and someone were to be
like, "Do you believe in Tucker
Carlson?" And like I'd be like, "No, I
know for certain like I know for a
certainty that Tucker Carlson exists. I
was just with him." It's it's like that.
And so it was um and it's never it's it
changed my life and ever since I'm I
regularly pray to God. It's something
I'm conscious of every single day. No
way. Um every day. Every day. And always
I don't even pray exactly. Um I don't
ask for things ever. I ask for one thing
ever from God. Um which is that my my
wife and my kids are healthy and safe.
It's the only thing I ever pray for. I
don't ask for anything. The only other
thing that I do is I I um I express
gratitude. Got like I just say thank you
for everything I have. So that's but
that's the extent of it. But I think
that I cannot overstate how much I think
that's made me a better person. Really?
Yeah. just it's it's very very good for
you to constantly remind yourself how
lucky you are that you have all the
things that you have. It's it's very
easy to get away from that and that's
where that's where you you ruin your
inner happiness, your inner joy is if
you start you start taking the things
you have for granted because once you
like you know once you when you think
you could lose everything you already
have and then you don't that's when you
really appreciate it you know you really
appreciate what how lucky we all are.
Well, not to be like too blunt or too
personal, but you're on the cusp of like
change in your life on the basis of
what's happened in the last month in
your life. I've just seen this story so
many times. Yeah. So, to be vulgar, your
income in this year will be higher than
last year. I'm just telling you that
because you're way more famous and
you're also on the right side of
history, I think. Yeah, I hope so. And
uh and certainly on the right side of
popular opinion. So like that. Do you
think I mean the danger in life is
getting what you want and finding
yourself unhappier? Are you worried
about that? No, I'm really not. Um and I
do just think that it's because again,
if this was happening to me at 25 or at
30, I would be very concerned about that
danger. Literally, like what I just told
you is kind of already happened in my
life. I know who I am as a person. I
kind of know what money actually means.
Like there's lots of nice things. I'm
not downplaying money. It's it's very
important, particularly in my position.
It's very important for me to be able to
protect my wife and kids that we have
some money, you know what I mean? So
that I can do that. Um, but no, I'm not
I'm really not worried about that at
this point. I think I've kind of like my
wife herself is a very grounding force
for me. She's the person whose approval
I seek. She's the person whose opinion I
really care about, you know, and so like
that's and and she keeps me very
grounded. Also, just as you know, you
know, having these little kids just
keeps you grounded because they're uh
they're they just don't care at all. At
all, like literally at all. My my
six-year-old the other day, we were out
to dinner. Um and so we're out to
dinner. We're sitting down. My wife, my
my six-year-old girl and my
three-year-old boy, and the uh the owner
of the restaurant is like a fan of mine.
So, he comes over the table. He goes,
"Oh, thank you guys so much for coming.
I just wanted to shake your hand. I
really appreciate everything you're
doing." And I was like, "Oh, thank you
so much. I appreciate that." So, he
leaves. And then my daughter, my
six-year-old, who's kind of 17, but
she's six, she turns over at me and she
goes, "Why'd he come over and say hi to
you, Dad?" "Cuz you're famous." And then
just looks and then just turned right
back to her menu. I mean, it was like
she could not have just undercut me more
than that. I was like, "I guess I'm not
really that cool." All right, I But that
that stuff helps.
I'm really lucky that I didn't have this
moment 15 years ago that I had it now.
So I think I think I'll be good but then
you know you cut back to me in a year I
come back here I got like the shades on
or something it's totally ruined me pelo
not per
Dave it's it's wonderful to see you no
matter how many times you've been here I
hope you will return I hope to to be
again um and can I just say by the way
just the last thing I'll say and then uh
we can end but I will say that you know
a big part of like the reason why I'm
able to do what I do and be kind of
protected because I'm not like I'm not
vulnerable. At least I don't think I
hope I don't live to eat these words,
but I don't think I'm going to be ruined
or cancelled or anything like that. And
a big part of it is that Joe Rogan and
Tucker Carlson have my back. And you
kind of can't really cancel someone in
today's world as long as those guys have
your back. Okay. And so, no, but I'm
saying you're providing a lot of cover
for people to be able to tell the truth
and know that like, oh, you're not going
to be able to like shut this person out
of the conversation for the crime of
telling the truth. Well, the money thing
is important to that extent. Money does
not make you happy, but being dependent
on other people's money can make you
enslaved. And not having um debt, not
having investors, we don't have debt or
investors. That makes a huge difference
in my life. and and I and but you also
have like actual skills like you can
just go do shows for the rest of your
life. Do you know what I mean? And I'm
quite happy to do that. That's what I'm
saying. So actually you were talking
about Matt Walsh who who I really do
like and I and I thought for you know to
the extent that you know he said what he
said kind of impressive considering he
works at the Daily Wire. He still works
at the Daily Wire however and I know I'm
not mocking him at all. I worked at Fox
News for you know 15 years and you do
have like in the back of your mind like
oh can I say that or you know you self
censor even when you're not aware that
you do but if you're if you're truly
independent then you can be independent.
Yeah. Which is the best. The best is
really just so great. Well I I think
you're funny even if Douglas doesn't
Dave. Thank you. Thank you Tucker.
[Music]
So, it turns out that YouTube is
suppressing this show. On one level,
that's not surprising. That's what they
do. But on another level, it's shocking.
With everything that's going on in the
world right now, all the change taking
place in our economy and our politics,
with the wars we're on the cusp of
fighting right now, Google has decided
you should have less information rather
than more. And that is totally wrong.
It's immoral. What can you do about it?
Well, we could whine about it. That's a
waste of time. We're not in charge of
Google. Or we could find a way around
it. A way that you could actually get
information that is true, not
intentionally deceptive. The way to do
that on YouTube, we think, is to
subscribe to our channel. Subscribe. Hit
the little bell icon to be notified when
we upload and share this video. That
way, you'll have a much higher chance of
hearing actual news and information. So,
we hope that you'll do