0:00 Dave, I'm really glad to see you. I know
0:02 you've been here before,
0:05 but it's nice to have you back. I am an
0:07 expert in all things Tucker Carlson.
0:10 So,
0:11 um I know you've been asked this a
0:13 million times, but I I'm coming to this
0:15 late. Uh like how do you assess
0:19 um the debate that you had with Douglas
0:21 Murray? Now, it's been a month. How
0:23 long's it been? Something like that.
0:25 Something like a month, right? So, few
0:27 weeks. Looking back, what was that?
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0:50 It's an interesting question. I mean, I
0:52 think I think essentially it was what
0:54 everyone saw. It was ex it's it's like
0:57 my first impression of it. My impression
0:59 during it during the first half hour of
1:01 the debate I was like
1:03 well Douglas just embarrassed himself in
1:06 front of the world and you felt that in
1:09 real time. Oh yeah yeah yeah. Well I
1:11 mean it was you know look it was he was
1:13 ridiculous and it was uh it was kind of
1:17 strange to witness as it was happening.
1:20 I go, "So, you decided to open the
1:23 debate by just chastising everyone as
1:26 not being as good as you, that the
1:29 expert class ought to be the ones
1:32 consulted, that you I mean, you know,
1:34 you could argue what he exactly he was
1:36 saying, but he was clearly saying that
1:40 you you guys on podcasts are simply not
1:43 qualified to talk about these subjects."
1:47 Now, you're saying this on the Joe Rogan
1:50 Experience. Of all places to go and
1:53 deliver this message, this is the place
1:55 guaranteed to turn the entire audience
1:57 against you. And of course, I just think
2:00 that um I think it's a it's a ridiculous
2:02 non-argument that never would have made
2:04 sense. But coming off of the COVID
2:07 years, the idea that you're going to
2:09 convince people
2:11 that you ought to kind of
2:14 um they they ought to trust your
2:16 opinions, they ought to that your class
2:19 ought to be trusted was a ridiculous,
2:22 you know, attend that class. I mean,
2:24 he's not I know Douglas and I think that
2:26 um always gotten along with him and I
2:27 think that he's clever, but he's clever
2:29 in a boarding school way. He went to
2:31 boarding school um as I did and you
2:33 instantly recognize it in the way that
2:35 he debates which is by dropping
2:37 references that suggest deep air
2:39 addition that doesn't actually exist. I
2:42 think he's clever. He's got a kind of
2:44 bullshitty boarding school vibe to him.
2:45 Again, that I recognize that I have
2:47 sometimes, so I'm not, you know, not
2:48 trying to be holier than now, but like
2:50 the idea that he's an expert is absurd.
2:52 He's a journalist like the rest of us
2:54 who's been taken on PR tours in various
2:56 countries by their governments trying to
2:57 win his support. Got it. I've done that,
2:59 too. Um, but he's hardly an expert on
3:02 anything. Well, what? Well, also it
3:05 doesn't look all of this in so the the
3:09 analogy that I I've used about it is
3:11 that like uh if you had two UFC fighters
3:14 that are going to fight, so they've
3:15 signed the contract, they've done their
3:16 training camps, they show up to Madison
3:18 Square Garden, they both get in the
3:19 octagon and like one of them puts up his
3:22 hands and then the other one puts his
3:23 hands down and goes, "You know, I'm such
3:26 a better fighter than you."
3:28 And this is ridiculous that me and you
3:29 are even fighting. It's like okay but we
3:32 are but we are we're here for it right
3:35 we both accepted we're both here. So if
3:38 you are such a better fighter if you
3:40 have trained so much more if you have
3:42 all these advantages against me well
3:45 then you can't just you have to
3:46 demonstrate that take on the argument
3:48 you should be able to then destroy me.
3:52 And so he weirdly opened with this thing
3:54 where he was going to turn everybody
3:56 off, turn everyone against it because
3:58 the style is Even if you're,
4:00 and I've had lots of people who are
4:02 pro-Israel reach out to me since then
4:03 and be like, "Listen, I disagree with
4:05 you on the issue, but that was
4:06 ridiculous the way he attempted to
4:08 argue." Um, because weirdly, number one,
4:11 you're turning everyone against you. And
4:13 number two, you're just setting the bar
4:15 so much higher for yourself. Because now
4:17 once we start actually getting into the
4:19 debate, you've already explained that
4:22 you should be dominating me on every
4:24 facet of this and yet you're not. And
4:27 yet actually when it comes down to it,
4:29 you have no answer for the points that
4:31 I'm making. And that was the theme of of
4:34 the entire knowledge either. Yes, that's
4:35 right. But no, but there was there were
4:38 two points in the debate that actually
4:40 stuck out to me the most. Um, and it
4:44 wasn't the have you been, which is, you
4:46 know, was the funniest thing that
4:47 everyone's making that you know, Douglas
4:49 will be mocked for eternity for, but you
4:52 know, he made his own bed. Um, but the
4:54 two points to me that really stuck out
4:56 in the debate because this is the way my
4:57 mind works is that I'm like, oh, if you
5:00 like, give me something g give me
5:02 something to challenge me on that will
5:04 actually keep me up at night. By the
5:05 way, if you were to be like, no, Dave,
5:07 you got this completely wrong and you
5:08 need to read these three books to
5:09 understand why you're missing all this
5:11 information. Can I interrupt and say I
5:13 knowing you pretty well I think I mean
5:15 this I believe I would take a lie
5:18 detector test and pass. I believe that
5:19 if you read those books and found that
5:22 you were wrong that you would admit it.
5:23 Oh yeah. And I've done this lots of
5:25 times before. I have I have views from a
5:27 decade ago that are quite embarrassing.
5:29 Uh in heights I was at one I was an
5:31 atheist at one point. I was pro-life. I
5:33 excuse me. I was pro-choice at one
5:35 point. Um I've oh god this I was up for
5:38 open borders at one point. I've been
5:40 I've had all of those views. had some
5:41 really bad views over the years and I've
5:43 changed my mind all the time. You think
5:44 Douglas would admit if he was wrong?
5:46 Well, of course not. I mean, that's
5:48 that's obvious. No, but that's kind of
5:49 the Look, if you can't if you can get
5:51 Iraq, Afghanistan, Syria, Libya,
5:54 Ukraine, and COVID wrong and then with
5:57 certainty say you're right about the
5:59 next one and then also tell also arguing
6:02 that the other person should have some
6:04 humility. I mean, come on. Like, what is
6:07 this? So good. It's just too You
6:09 couldn't write if I just scripted this
6:10 for you and wrote it on a script, you'd
6:12 be like, "Take it down and this is too
6:14 ridiculous. No one would believe this."
6:17 But regardless of that, so there were
6:19 two moments that actually really stood
6:21 out to me in the debate. Um were Okay,
6:24 so number one was in the Ukraine
6:26 portion. Number two was in the the
6:28 Israel portion. So in the Ukraine
6:30 portion at one point I said to him we
6:33 were talking about the um you know what
6:35 led up to the war and so he said
6:38 something like he goes you know the real
6:40 question is why all these countries
6:42 wanted to join NATO I mean we didn't
6:44 incorporate them in NATO through force
6:46 and I was like well yes obviously that's
6:48 the argument isn't that we force the
6:50 governments willingly wanted to join
6:52 NATO. I was like, that's pretty obvious
6:53 why you'd want to be sub you have your
6:56 defense subsidized and want to have the
6:58 most powerful government in the history
6:59 of the world guaranteeing your defense.
7:01 Sure. And also because they're concerned
7:02 about the former Soviet Union, which is
7:05 still Russia and Okay. But I was like,
7:07 but that wasn't the argument. You know,
7:09 the argument is why would we do this?
7:12 And so I I was like, let me just give
7:13 you two bullet points, right? Two quick
7:16 arguments. And the two uh quick points
7:18 that I made were number one uh the net
7:21 means net memo which of course as you
7:23 know well you've talked about this a lot
7:24 you talked about this back on your Fox
7:26 News show was that uh uh Bill Burns
7:29 later director of the CIA. Yes. Yes. The
7:31 the CIA director through Joe Biden's
7:33 four years who was the CIA director
7:35 through this entire war up until Trump
7:37 to turn back over but then the
7:39 ambassador to Russ in 2008. He was the
7:41 ambassador to Russia. He wrote a private
7:43 uh cable to Conda Rice. This was not for
7:45 the public. This was a private cable
7:47 that later the heroic Julian Assange
7:49 released. It's the only reason we know
7:51 it exists. And he lays out in there that
7:54 all this talk about Ukrainian entry to
7:56 NATO is going to lead to a war. And he
7:59 specifically says that this is the
8:01 brightest of all red lines for the
8:02 Russians. And if we keep moving forward,
8:05 they fear this could result in civil war
8:07 and and then they might have to
8:09 intervene. In his words, quote, a choice
8:12 the Russians do not want to have to
8:14 make. So, I was like, "Hey, there's a
8:16 pretty compelling piece of evidence."
8:18 And then number two, I said, "Uh, uh,
8:21 Stro Stlenberg, I always say this name
8:23 wrong, but the head of NATO, Stolenberg,
8:25 the head of NATO, he said that Vladimir
8:28 Putin in late 2001 put in writing, sent
8:31 a draft treaty to NATO and said, "If you
8:34 just put into writing that you will not
8:36 bring Ukraine into NATO, I will not
8:39 invade the country." This is the head of
8:41 NATO. So, I give him these two points.
8:42 Okay, there's I could talk a lot more
8:44 about this, but I was like, let's focus
8:45 on these two. Seems to me that all the
8:47 powerful people involved are admitting
8:49 that this war was about Ukrainian entry
8:51 into NATO. And his response was, the war
8:55 was not about Ukrainian entry into NATO.
8:58 It was about Vladimir Putin's desires to
9:00 reconstitute the Soviet
9:02 Union. And I was like, yeah, but what's
9:05 the response? Like, what's the response
9:07 to my point? Like, I made a point. You
9:10 made nothing. You just made an
9:11 assertion. So there was this one where
9:13 it's like once you actually get down to
9:15 it, once you remove all this like you're
9:17 an expert, you're not an expert, you've
9:19 never been, what are you watering, what
9:21 are the you've got no actual argument
9:23 here because you're not an expert
9:24 yourself, right? But even that it's like
9:26 that again just the way I
9:29 work that doesn't do anything for me.
9:31 Then you got to have an actual argument
9:33 otherwise you're not going to persuade
9:34 me. And I think for most of the the
9:36 viewers knowledge too and I just refer
9:38 back to the boarding school thing. It's
9:39 like the whole point of that style in
9:42 debating is to create the illusion of
9:44 knowledge.
9:45 Like you have an escalus quote sort of,
9:48 you know what I mean? Or you can cite
9:50 the titles of three DH Lawrence novels,
9:52 but you haven't read the novels. You
9:53 haven't read Escalus. You don't you
9:55 don't actually have you don't have an
9:56 original thought that's actually yours.
9:58 You don't even have the material. You
10:01 haven't even you haven't even read the
10:03 books. It's just it's a slight of hand.
10:06 And uh that's what they teach you in
10:08 boarding school. Well, the Okay, so then
10:10 the other one, which some people did
10:12 pick up on this, but this to me was like
10:14 actually the biggest moment of the
10:16 debate, I thought. Um, and and it was
10:20 sad in a way cuz Douglas Murray is
10:22 someone who I have some degree of
10:23 respect for as a smart person. It was
10:25 kind of sad that he was reduced to this,
10:27 but so he made the argument. He said um
10:31 first off he was dishonest where he and
10:33 I didn't call him I know this but I I
10:35 let it slide but he goes you know I was
10:37 very iffy about the war in Libya. It's
10:39 like I've read your columns at the time.
10:41 No you warrants. Okay. Anyway,
10:43 but he goes I was very iffy about the
10:45 war in Libya but the war in Libya was
10:48 fought because there was this tremendous
10:50 fear that Gaddafi was about to go
10:51 genocidal and it was a humanitarian
10:53 intervention. And so then I said okay
10:56 now they have slave markets in Tripoli.
10:58 is humanitarian. But even but forget
11:00 even the point that okay, maybe maybe
11:02 their argument is they thought he was
11:03 going to go genocidal and they didn't
11:04 realize it would be so much worse
11:06 without him. Like what? But I said,
11:07 "Okay, Douglas, so riddle me this then.
11:09 If it was a humanitarian intervention,
11:12 how come I have fourstar general Wesley
11:14 Clark telling me 10 years prior that we
11:18 had already made the plans to go
11:19 overthrow Gaddafi?" Because he said this
11:21 very clearly to Amy Goodman on Democracy
11:23 Now. And then I I mentioned that he
11:26 later uh actually very recently on on
11:28 Pierce Morgan he clarified uh this is
11:31 really interesting if people go watch
11:33 it. Scott Horton uh who is amazing by
11:36 the way his book provoked is the best
11:37 book on uh Russia US post collapse of
11:41 the Soviet Union relations. His book uh
11:44 enough already is the best book that's
11:45 been written on the terror wars. So
11:47 Scott Horton is debating Wesley Clark on
11:49 Pierce Morgan. And this gets brought up,
11:51 you know, the fact that you said in 2001
11:53 you had already seen in the Pentagon
11:56 that we were going to overthrow seven
11:58 countries in 5 years. And okay, so he
12:01 says he goes, "Well, actually the plans
12:04 go back to 1991 and I saw them first
12:07 from Paul Wolawitz's office and then
12:10 basically the plans got killed and then
12:12 they were revived uh by Richard Pearl
12:15 and a study paid for by the Israelis."
12:17 This was fortar Wesley Clark's comments
12:20 on it. So, I brought that up and I go,
12:22 "Well, look, you're going to say that
12:23 this is a um you know, a humanitarian
12:26 intervention, but that seems strange
12:28 because the plans to overthrow Gaddafi
12:30 were already written many years earlier
12:33 and then they had their opportunity and
12:34 they did it. I think it was more than
12:36 just a humanitarian intervention." And
12:38 then his response is this thing about
12:42 how Paul Wolfitz's name starts with an
12:45 animal and ends Jewish. And it was kind
12:48 of funny the way you said it, but then
12:50 he just he went be careful what you're
12:52 watering there because you can't, you
12:54 know, there a lot of people are going to
12:56 hate Jews if you just start bringing up
12:59 Paul Wolfwitz's name. And I just could
13:01 not believe, by the way, the end result
13:03 of that is he had no response to what I
13:05 was saying. He didn't have a response to
13:07 why this Wolfwitz has an identifiably
13:10 Jewish name. you're abetting
13:13 anti-semitism by bringing it up even
13:14 though he's a government official who
13:16 helped get us into this war that killed
13:17 a million people. Yeah. He's also in
13:19 other places talked about how Paul
13:21 Wolfwitz is like a hero in the in uh the
13:24 Kurds in Iraq consider him a hero
13:27 because he was the architect of the war
13:29 that overthrew Saddam Hussein. But like
13:31 I'm not allowed to mention him because
13:32 that which is first of all it's just
13:35 beside the point like forget what this
13:37 will lead to. What's the truth? That's
13:39 that's what matters. So, he's of course
13:41 a very pro Kurdish, I would imagine.
13:44 Yes. Yes. I'm sure. Yeah. Well, I
13:46 actually have been there. Oh, have you?
13:48 Yes, I have been there. And uh and I can
13:50 say firsthand the most brutal people
13:52 I've ever met in my life were Kurds.
13:54 Like, actually, I saw it firsthand. So,
13:57 I'm not against the Kurds or whatever,
13:59 but I I it's just interesting. Everyone
14:00 in Washington, no one's ever met a Kurd.
14:03 Can't define what a Kurd is, but
14:06 everyone reflexively loves the Kurds.
14:08 And I' I've never had strong views about
14:10 the Kurds, but again, I just want to say
14:11 I've seen it in action in Iraq, and I
14:13 was shocked by the Kurdish behavior
14:15 personally. Yeah. Well, also, you know,
14:18 it's uh it was all the people who are,
14:20 you know, were were knocking Donald
14:22 Trump in his first term when he wanted
14:23 to pull out of Syria and they were like,
14:25 "What about the Kurds? We can't betray
14:26 the Kurds." And then those same people
14:28 will tell you what a great President
14:29 George HW Bush was, but we can't betray
14:31 the Kurds, right? The guy who really
14:34 betrayed the Kurds. I mean, told them to
14:37 rise up against Saddam Hussein and
14:38 overthrow him and then decided, "Ah,
14:40 we're going to back off that and just
14:42 allowed them allowed them to get
14:44 slaughtered, you know, but and look, I
14:48 mean, it was just kind of blatant. It's
14:49 like I'm presenting an argument and
14:52 you're responding with a pure woke
14:54 tactic." Exactly. A pure woke tactic to
14:57 say, which I, as I mentioned to him, I
14:58 go, "But wouldn't this apply to
15:01 everything you stand for?" I mean,
15:03 everything you stand for about how we
15:04 shouldn't have so much Muslim
15:05 immigration into the UK. Okay. Well,
15:07 someone could take that and that might
15:09 lead to a rise in hatred of of Muslim
15:12 people. But that's not a
15:14 counterargument. That's not an argument.
15:16 That's like, well, okay. Well, then
15:17 maybe you could say you should also add
15:19 in there, I don't mean all Jewish people
15:22 are guilty of some conspiracy, but that
15:25 first of Jewish and he's not. So, like,
15:27 what the hell are you talking about? You
15:28 said you're Jewish. So that gets me to I
15:31 mean I don't think you've convinced
15:32 Douglas that you're Jewish. So um true I
15:34 saw that and read the commentary after
15:36 and as someone who's always liked
15:38 Douglas um and known him for a while. My
15:40 first instinct was wow he just destroyed
15:42 his career like he's done. Um no smart
15:46 person will ever take Douglas seriously
15:48 again. And I don't I don't know if he
15:49 felt that way but it was clear by a day
15:51 or two after he realized he destroyed
15:53 his career. And in response, rather than
15:56 admitting that and admitting what he'd
15:57 done wrong, he attacked you. Really kind
15:59 of doubled down in the New York Post. I
16:01 want to read this cuz I was offended by
16:03 this. Um, he goes, "The whole column is
16:06 an attack on you." And I'm quoting,
16:09 "Claiming some Jewish
16:12 ancestry, Smith has spent the last 18
16:14 months since October 7th being very
16:16 unfunny
16:19 indeed, claiming some Jewish ancestry."
16:22 Now, I'm not really sure. Well, I'm just
16:24 going to I don't know why that just Oh,
16:27 well. So, what do you claim some Jewish
16:30 ancestry? I uh my mom and dad are
16:33 probably the big ones. Uh but I do I do
16:36 claim some Jewish ancestry. Um, but
16:39 yeah, it's it's I mean it was so well
16:41 first of all I joke which I'm not even
16:42 the f cuz everyone made this joke
16:44 already about the art, but he says I
16:45 haven't been funny and I just Douglas
16:47 has never been to one of my comedy shows
16:50 so he should come and check it out and
16:53 then he could tell me what he thinks. I
16:54 think I'm pretty damn funny in my shows
16:56 and the audience seems to think so. But
16:58 I guess you're Jewish ancestry. You
17:01 claim first of all he suggests that
17:02 you're like a fake Jew. Yeah. Yeah.
17:05 Claiming some Jewish ancestry. It's like
17:07 you're hiding behind a cloak of Ursat's
17:10 Judaism, which is in a way um you know,
17:13 one of the things that I thought was so
17:14 interesting about the piece uh was that
17:17 and I couldn't imagine, man, I hope I'm
17:19 never this person. Um because even now,
17:22 right, like there's so there's so many
17:24 shots I could take at Douglas, but even
17:26 when you ask me about the debate, like
17:28 my first instinct is to go like, well,
17:30 look, here are the points I made that he
17:31 didn't have counters to, cuz I'm about
17:33 the argument, you like that's what
17:35 actually matters and it's it's tough for
17:37 all of us because there is as as you
17:39 know well you've talked a lot about this
17:41 right but it's like in this kind of show
17:43 business news world where we're talking
17:46 about events and things that matter but
17:48 also there's a camera on us and we're
17:51 talking on a microphone and we're we're
17:53 public people and so it's kind of
17:55 impossible to completely remove your ego
17:57 and your own narcissistic tendencies
17:59 from that but like you got to keep
18:01 reminding yourself like yeah but there's
18:02 a war going on like that's what
18:05 actually matters. All of this is much
18:07 less important than like the actual
18:08 policy. So you try to focus on that. But
18:11 I could not imagine writing an article
18:14 about a debate that I had just been in
18:16 where the reaction was so unfavorable
18:19 toward me. And in the piece, what you
18:21 might notice is he does not take on a
18:23 single one of my arguments. He does not
18:25 point out something that I got wrong. He
18:27 does not say Dave argued this but this
18:29 is so clearly a reflection of his lack
18:31 of knowledge on this subject because he
18:33 didn't account for X Y and Z. It's just
18:36 once just like the actual debate. He
18:39 would only debate me. He wouldn't debate
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19:54 code Tucker to save 15%. So why do you
19:57 think he did it? I mean, he was
19:59 basically It felt to me like he was sent
20:01 on a kamicazi
20:03 mission. That's the way it looked here.
20:05 The guy just flies into your aircraft
20:08 carrier, doesn't sink it, but it
20:10 destroys his his plane, his career. I
20:13 don't get it in a sense. I don't know. I
20:15 don't think Douglas Murray destroyed his
20:16 career. I think he destroyed his
20:18 reputation. And so his reputation
20:20 amongst the people, but his career is
20:23 actually going to be fine. Much like
20:24 Camala Harris's career is actually going
20:26 to be fine. And I don't know, you know,
20:29 I'm I'm speculating a little bit uh with
20:31 this cuz there there really there was
20:33 not almost any interaction off the
20:35 podcast. Like Douglas Murray showed up
20:38 five minutes later we were recording. He
20:40 left immediately afterward and me and
20:41 Rogan hung out for a so like there's
20:43 nothing more that the viewer didn't see
20:45 that I saw really hellos and goodbyes.
20:48 Um but I think number one of my my
20:53 guesses I'm speculating here is that he
20:55 just didn't uh wasn't really prepared
20:59 for me and it was like oh some a
21:01 comedian will be on there and maybe he
21:03 came in kind of confident that like
21:05 he'll be able to handle me. I've had
21:07 that happen a few times in in my career.
21:09 I think it's happening less. I can't
21:11 imagine he didn't like look into me
21:13 before the debate, but maybe that's
21:15 possible. But the feeling that I got as
21:18 it was going on was kind of okay. I do
21:22 you remember you I'm sure you do. You
21:23 remember very well when Camala Harris
21:25 was running for president. I know that
21:27 seems like a long time ago, but that
21:28 actually happened which is really crazy.
21:31 It's like a dream sequence. Now, it's
21:33 not just that Dick Cheney and Liz Cheney
21:35 endorsed her, but she started bringing
21:37 Liz Cheney out to campaign events and
21:41 campaigning with Liz Cheney. Now, if you
21:43 were just looking at this on paper,
21:46 you'd go, "Okay, what demographic of
21:49 voters is this for?" And you'd very
21:53 quickly realize that that demographic
21:55 doesn't exist. No. Are the leftists?
21:57 They still remember her last name as
21:59 Cheney. And especially with the the year
22:02 that had preceded that, like they're
22:04 kind of anti-war again and they're not
22:07 really into like the idea of we've got a
22:09 Cheney on our side. It's not going to
22:10 win you. It's not going to get out your
22:12 base. And then on the other side, I
22:15 mean, she lost by like 50 points in her
22:17 congressional run. I mean, she's it's
22:19 not like you're bringing Republicans in.
22:21 And so, I think the only thing you could
22:23 conclude is that, oh, this isn't
22:24 actually for the voters. There's
22:27 somebody else who Camala Harris is
22:28 talking to here. There's a power source
22:30 that may be a little concerned about her
22:33 and she's trying to let them know. Don't
22:36 worry, I'm good for business. I've got
22:39 Liz Cheney right here. That's kind of my
22:42 assumption. It seemed to me with the
22:44 Douglas Murray thing, he wasn't playing
22:46 to the audience. He certainly wasn't
22:48 trying to persuade Joe. No, he perhaps
22:52 was talking to a different audience,
22:54 which will make sure that his career is
22:55 just fine going forward. That's the
22:57 sense I got. If you want to make people
22:58 paranoid and hateful, act like that.
23:00 Well, again, look, there two things that
23:02 I I really want to make sure I express.
23:06 number one with the thing where he's
23:08 this this claim some Jewish ancestry
23:11 thing which by the way would be I think
23:13 if you were to ever do this to say like
23:16 a Jewish person who was on your side you
23:18 would be like well that's a pretty
23:20 anti-semitic thing to do right to like
23:22 challenge their Jewishness because they
23:24 disagree with a policy but what does
23:27 your Jewishness have to do with it
23:28 anyway well right that's the whole
23:29 point and that you know it does
23:32 I think it's basically like this I think
23:34 that particularly when it comes to the
23:36 Israel stuff, a lot of these guys don't
23:38 know what to do with me. Because
23:41 typically, as every American who's ever
23:44 criticized Israel knows, you get labeled
23:46 as being a Jew hater. Oh, you must be
23:48 anti-Semitic. That's why you would say
23:50 something like that. Like remember that
23:52 horrible uh anti-semite Pat Buchanan who
23:56 said that the Israel lobby wanted a war
23:57 in Iraq? She just hates Jewish people.
24:00 Like even though we all know that's
24:02 true, when you say it, they go, "You're
24:04 an anti-semite." That's like the game
24:06 that they play. That's much tougher to
24:08 do when you're talking to someone who's
24:10 Jewish. And so in a in a sense that ends
24:14 up being kind of a shield against the
24:16 accusation. And so they want to remove
24:18 that shield so that you don't have But
24:20 the bottom line is that no one should
24:22 have that shield. And I am Jewish. My
24:24 mother and father are both Jewish. I am
24:26 I think I was 86% Ashkanazi Jew on my
24:29 DNA test. I think that's enough. But uh
24:32 the point is it shouldn't matter. It
24:35 shouldn't matter at all. You should
24:36 anybody I'm talking about the behavior
24:38 of nations by the way. Nations with
24:41 militaries and parliaments, congresses,
24:44 like these are countries
24:46 and I what does this have to do? I mean
24:49 well first of all and this isn't even
24:50 the most important point but the
24:51 American taxpayer is forced to pay for
24:53 this stuff. So, but even if he wasn't,
24:55 even if you didn't have to pay for it,
24:57 if you're a human being, forget even an
25:00 American. If you're a human being, you
25:01 have a right to have an opinion on any
25:03 issue you want to have an opinion on.
25:05 This is what the left did during co. It
25:07 was like, wait a second, it seems like
25:09 this came, you're telling me it came
25:11 from a penglin in a wet market, a fish
25:13 market, a mammal sold in a fish market
25:15 somehow, you know, was the genesis of
25:17 this virus. But there was this level
25:20 three bolab like a mile away. Maybe that
25:22 was a source and they're like, "Ah, you
25:23 hate Asians." It's like, and they
25:26 claimed racism, so you couldn't pursue
25:28 that line of inquiry. I see people like
25:30 Douglas Murray, supposedly on the right,
25:32 and there are a lot of others like
25:33 Douglas Murray saying the same thing,
25:36 like you can't you can't express an
25:38 opinion about where your tax dollars go
25:40 or about people dying or else you're a
25:42 bigot. How is that different, right?
25:44 Well, no, it's not. It's the same thing.
25:46 It's the same kind of pathetic um tactic
25:50 where if you can't if you can't argue
25:53 against someone's ideas, you just say,
25:55 "Oh, you're a bad person and that's why
25:57 you have these ideas to begin with."
25:59 It's it's a a very it's a very lowgrade
26:02 like social psychology attempt to shame
26:05 someone out of having the the views that
26:07 they have. Um and yeah, it's exactly
26:09 it's it's what the woke did on
26:11 everything. It's no matter what it was.
26:12 If anytime is a I don't I can't remember
26:15 who coined the term but uh is a racist
26:18 is anybody winning an argument against a
26:20 progressive. Exactly. You know, it's
26:22 that's it. And so he's doing the same
26:24 thing. But then the other thing which is
26:26 is really separate and secondary from
26:29 that. But the argument that Douglas
26:31 Murray is making is that if I call out
26:34 Paul Wolawitz or even, you know, more
26:37 broadly speaking, if I call out the
26:38 neoonservatives,
26:40 um, and how they hijacked American
26:41 foreign policy and how they very much
26:43 had Israel's interest in mind, which I I
26:46 get from reading the neoconservatives. I
26:48 don't get this from reading critics of
26:50 them. It's from their in their own
26:51 words, right? He'll he's saying me
26:54 calling that out is fertile ground for
26:58 Jew hatred to rise. And it's like, no,
27:01 what you're doing is fertile ground.
27:03 What you telling me I'm not allowed to
27:05 call out the deputy defense secretary
27:08 because his last name is Jewish. That's
27:11 that's actually what leads to a rise in
27:13 people not liking Jews. Couldn't agree
27:15 more. And I do think Douglas, though
27:18 he's not an expert or a genius, is smart
27:20 enough to understand that, but he did it
27:22 anyway. Yeah. And I don't know his
27:24 motive, but in the moment that I think
27:28 made me actually turn it off, I had to
27:29 stop watching. Um, but it was most
27:31 revealing of all is when he goes after
27:33 Daryl Cooper, the historian, really one
27:36 of the great historians of the United
27:37 States, Daryl Cooper. Um, and doesn't
27:39 know his name. Yeah. And but goes after
27:42 him personally as like a Nazi or
27:43 something. And let me just
27:44 parathetically, and I'll shut up after
27:45 this, but Dale Cooper is one of the
27:47 kindest, most reasonable, most
27:49 fundamentally liberal people I know.
27:52 anti-Nazi people, you know, a guy who
27:54 you could give your routing number to
27:55 would never steal money. Yeah. A guy
27:57 who, if he had absolute power, would
27:59 kill nobody, like a truly decent
28:02 Christian man. Basically called him a
28:05 monster and didn't even know his name.
28:08 And so that suggested to me that he was
28:10 like briefed by somebody before, make
28:12 sure you get in this Holocaust, which
28:14 he's not, Daryl Cooper. Like what is
28:18 that? Well, it's also, you know, if
28:20 you're if you're smearing people who,
28:23 which and Daryl wasn't the only one, but
28:25 if you're smearing people whose like
28:26 names you don't know and who you admit
28:29 you've never listened to any of their
28:31 their work, maybe don't put that right
28:34 in the middle of an appeal to expertise,
28:37 you know, like like maybe don't maybe
28:39 have that in a different section than in
28:41 the section where you're going, you
28:42 really have to know what you're talking
28:44 about in order to have an opinion on
28:46 these things. And so that didn't that
28:48 didn't work out very well. Dude, Daryl
28:51 is a is an amazing guy. He is brilliant.
28:54 His work is phenomenal. Um I know him
28:57 personally and he's like genuinely a
28:59 great person. He's a humane man. Yes.
29:01 And it's it is something it's a comment
29:04 on our time and on our society that the
29:09 guy who essentially if you if you
29:12 actually consume any of Daryl's work as
29:13 I have consumed a lot of it
29:16 basically Daryl's whole kind of um his
29:20 template the way he operates is he's uh
29:23 there's basically only like a couple
29:24 rules and like number one is he has to
29:27 read everything that's available on the
29:29 subject. So he reads everything. The
29:32 guy's a machine. His his depth of
29:34 knowledge is like second to none. He
29:36 just knows everything. And then number
29:38 two is whenever you talk about history,
29:41 basically his rule is that you have to
29:43 understand that everyone involved is a
29:45 human being, every one of them was a
29:47 three-year-old at one point. So like
29:49 totally innocent, like good little boy,
29:51 like my three-year-old that I have at
29:53 home. And that they grew up in real
29:56 circumstances and real things happen to
29:58 them. And if you're going to do history,
30:00 you have to constantly be doing your
30:01 absolute best to put yourself in this
30:03 person's shoes and then put yourself in
30:05 this person's shoes and then put
30:06 yourself on this side of the conflict
30:07 and then put yourself on this side of
30:09 the conflict. That's basically it. He
30:11 It's pure empathy. Like all and actually
30:14 um as I've mentioned to you personally
30:16 and I've told Daryl this personally, he
30:19 is probably the best shot people have at
30:23 dradicalizing people in in the worst
30:26 form of being radicalized. He's the guy,
30:29 listen, for me personally, and I thought
30:31 I was pretty well read on the history of
30:33 of Israel Palestine. And he has this
30:35 this incredibly long series, like a
30:37 30-hour series called Fear and Loathing
30:39 in the New Jerusalem. And like the thing
30:42 is, I knew most of what I knew, not all
30:45 of it, but most of what I had read about
30:46 with the Israeli Palestine conflict,
30:48 like most people, was like starts in
30:51 1947, 1948, and then goes up to today.
30:55 his series is about it's like from the
30:57 1890s until 1947. So he's talking about
31:01 the creation of the state from Zionism
31:03 being created to the state being created
31:05 and going rehearsal to Bengurian. Right.
31:07 Right. Exactly. That's that's basically
31:09 the the whole, you know, he has a little
31:11 bit where he's talking about the pgrams
31:13 that preceded, you know, the Zionists,
31:14 but that's really the the story. And it
31:18 actually made me much more sympathetic
31:19 to the Zionists. You know, as somebody
31:21 who grew up kind of in that propaganda,
31:23 in the pro-Israel propaganda, then
31:25 ultimately turned on it and became a
31:27 critic of Israel. Listening to his
31:29 series, you understand. It just puts you
31:31 in the position and you do understand
31:32 like, oh, okay, these were real men who
31:35 were reacting to the circumstances of
31:37 their day. you can kind of understand
31:39 why a lot of them wanted to do this. By
31:40 the way, it's pretty amazing that they
31:42 pulled it off. However you feel about
31:44 however you feel about what the
31:45 government of Israel is doing, it's
31:47 amazing that they did this. And yet,
31:50 look, and of course, for the one, this
31:52 is why I say it's a comment on our time.
31:54 So, there's one guy here who's going
31:56 like, "Listen, you got to like really
31:57 completely educate yourself on a subject
31:59 and then you have to have empathy toward
32:00 all sides." And then everyone goes,
32:02 "Nazi? That guy's a Nazi." I mean,
32:05 that's what it is to be a Nazi in 2025.
32:07 It's just so funny. I'm too old for a
32:09 lot of this stuff. And so, I thought,
32:11 you know, among the many lessons, great
32:12 lessons of the Second World War that I I
32:14 mean, I grew up marinating in, you
32:17 dehumanizing people is bad. Treating
32:19 them like treating human beings like
32:21 they're not human is bad. And I I still
32:24 believe that. I think it's the core of
32:25 Christianity. And but it's also just the
32:28 core of any civil society, any decent
32:30 society. And that's what Daryl is trying
32:33 to do. Yeah. And I don't know that I've
32:35 ever heard anybody try and take apart
32:37 his his, you know, factual analysis.
32:40 It's always it always immediately goes
32:42 to motive. You're a Nazi. Shut up.
32:43 You're a Holocaust den or just claim,
32:45 right? Or claiming he said something
32:46 that isn't at all what he said. Like he
32:48 downplayed the atrocities the No, he
32:51 didn't. It's also um but but why why
32:55 should Daryl Cooper
32:58 um and by the way a number of my
32:59 friends, people I really like have been
33:01 involved in this like their authority
33:03 has been marshaled to destroy Daryl
33:05 Cooper and I grieve to see it cuz it's
33:07 you know they're paid to do it and it's
33:09 so degrading to them and dishonest and
33:12 sad. But why? Daryl Cooper's like this
33:15 one guy living in the Pacific Northwest.
33:20 Why spend all this time and energy to
33:22 destroy him? Well, I love uh you said
33:25 this um I forget a few years ago. I
33:28 can't remember what it was where you
33:29 said this, but it was you and I this
33:31 really hit home with me. And this isn't
33:33 like and you weren't suggesting that
33:34 this is like a proof. This isn't like a
33:36 like a a irrefutable logical argument.
33:39 It's kind of like a guide, but you know,
33:41 you said the thing about you could tell
33:43 when something's infected because you
33:45 touch it and you recoil and you go,
33:46 "Something's going on there." Now, what
33:48 exactly is it? Now, it's that doesn't
33:50 prove what's going on, but look, you
33:52 can't. The fact that Daryl's moment on
33:55 on your podcast sitting right here where
33:57 I'm sitting got such a reaction Yes.
34:01 really demonstrates something like
34:03 something and and you see that it's
34:05 like, oh, you touched on like a third
34:07 rail. Oh, hurt dog barks. Yes. Well, and
34:10 and in the same way when you uh had
34:12 first uh questioned the morality of
34:14 dropping nuclear weapons on on cities
34:16 and then there's this big freak out over
34:18 that and now nobody here has said, "Hey,
34:21 the Nazis were the good guys. The Nazis
34:23 didn't commit any atrocities." No one's
34:25 even downplaying no one even made the
34:27 argument that I remain anti-Nazi for the
34:29 work for the record. But I'm saying like
34:31 no one even made the argument that like
34:33 it was 5.9 million, not six, you know,
34:36 like there's nothing this this topic
34:38 hasn't even been broached. No, but what
34:40 what you are attacking is really the
34:45 underpinning of the origin story of the
34:49 American Empire. Exactly. And that's
34:51 what you're not allowed to question
34:52 because and you see it the way every
34:55 every defender of every war, including
34:58 the current one, if you can call it a
35:00 war going on in Gaza, I'm not sure war
35:03 is exactly the right term to describe
35:05 it. destruction of of a captive people.
35:10 Um, but every single person who defends
35:13 it will always invoke World War II at
35:16 one point. Not even arguing that like
35:19 not even making an argument that this is
35:20 why it was justified in World War II.
35:22 Just like we did it in World War II. We
35:25 did it in World War II and we're the
35:26 good guys. So good guys are allowed to
35:29 slaughter entire peoples. You know, it's
35:30 like it is the and and look, even if you
35:34 even if you accept the official World
35:37 War II story as being completely
35:39 correct, it's still something that's
35:41 used to justify all of these other
35:44 indefensible wars. Every war of my
35:46 lifetime, and I doubt too many people
35:48 really want to defend the ones in
35:50 between World War II and when I was
35:52 born, you know, like I I don't think
35:53 anyone's going like, "Look at Vietnam.
35:54 It did such a great such a good thing
35:56 that we did that." and those who are
35:58 attempting to defend it are pathetic.
36:01 But, you know, Iraq and Libya and Syria
36:05 and Afghanistan and um even the ones
36:09 when I was a little kid, you know,
36:10 Serbia, every one of these guys they
36:12 always said was Adolf Hitler. Mallich is
36:15 Adolf Hitler. Saddam Hussein is Adolf
36:17 Hitler. Gaddafi is Adolf Hitler. Noriega
36:20 is Adolf Hitler. Every bad guy has
36:22 always been It's like they use this
36:24 model to justify. You're only ever
36:26 allowed to learn the lesson in history
36:28 that's like Chamberlain was an appeaser,
36:31 appeasing bad. Exactly. Confrontation
36:33 good. As if that's as if the lessons of
36:36 history are
36:37 that aggression is always correct.
36:40 Trying to work out a deal is always
36:42 wrong. Yes. And that's why I think it's
36:44 so important to attack that narrative.
36:47 Yeah. And from my perspective, it's like
36:48 not even about principle as much as it
36:51 is effect. If what we're doing was
36:55 working, then I I guess I wouldn't be
36:57 interested in, you know, analyzing it so
37:00 critically. But it's not working. It
37:02 hasn't worked for the West, which I
37:03 love. It's where my ancestors are from.
37:04 It's where my children live. So, it's
37:06 like, I don't know. I think it's fair to
37:08 ask like, how did we get here? It's all
37:10 falling apart. Why? And maybe the
37:12 assumptions were bad. And what are those
37:13 assumptions? Well, they're rooted in
37:14 that war. As you said, it's just
37:17 interesting that anyone would want to
37:18 defend that. Like, I don't really I
37:20 still don't get the motive. Maybe I
37:21 never will. Like, why would you want to
37:22 defend any of that? Why would you want
37:24 to defend Dresden or Gaza or any things
37:27 that America did? By the way, it's not
37:29 attacking not it's not attacking Israel.
37:32 It's I'm attacking the US government,
37:34 which I pay for, which my ancestors
37:35 helped build. Like, yeah. Why Why would
37:38 you ever want to defend bad things?
37:42 Well, it is um you know there there is a
37:45 tendency by people who if you're if
37:49 you're pulling away like the
37:51 underpinnings in someone's entire
37:53 worldview, they usually get very
37:55 defensive. You're right. You're totally
37:56 right. I've been there, by the way. I've
37:57 been there. So that I have felt
37:59 defensive when I first heard Alex Jones
38:01 question 9/11. I was outraged by I was
38:04 totally outraged by it. And so I in a in
38:07 a reflexive stupid way. Well, I remember
38:09 um just because I was like very um on I
38:13 was very on board with the Ron Paul
38:14 presidential campaigns. This was my like
38:16 radicalizing moment was was Ron Paul
38:18 running for president and I remember
38:20 that you were hosting the uh the event
38:23 that he had. I can't remember what it
38:24 was called but very well. It was the
38:26 Rally for the Republic. The Rally for
38:27 the Republic. I should have 2008. I was
38:31 the MC of that. Yes. So at the time it
38:33 was a really big deal for us that we had
38:35 you mcing it and because it was like Ron
38:39 Paul was getting blacked out in all the
38:40 the you know mainstream media as we used
38:43 to call it at the time. Uh, and but we
38:45 had Tucker Carlson. We had like one of
38:47 the big players in that world hosting
38:48 the event and I remember um when you
38:51 walked out well you it I saw like an
38:53 interview with you where someone was
38:55 like hey why did you walk out of that
38:56 event and you were like I don't know man
38:58 the the saying 911 wasn't inside job
39:00 stuff was just a bridge too far for me
39:02 and honestly I totally understood that
39:04 at the time I was just pissed off at um
39:07 Jesse Ventura cuz I was like come on
39:09 dude we actually got like a chance here
39:10 to make a mark and then you're going to
39:12 go you know start spouting out with
39:14 these conspiracies He believed it. I
39:17 mean, I think Jess, even just a whole
39:18 rabbit hole I won't even go down, but I
39:20 think I don't know what happened to that
39:21 guy. Sure is a very flawed guy. Um, for
39:24 sure. We're all flawed people. I'm a
39:25 little less judgmental than I used to
39:26 be. Um, now that I know the depth of my
39:28 own shittiness, but which I think is
39:31 important. Yeah. Meditate every day on
39:33 your death and your own flaws and you'll
39:34 be a happy person with better
39:37 perspective. But, um, I I shouldn't have
39:39 done that. I don't I don't know why, you
39:42 know, was so my views are so different.
39:43 But anyway, the point is I understand
39:45 what you're saying. Well, it's also that
39:47 you you know, it's not even it's not
39:50 even necessarily that you would have to
39:52 like all these years later be convinced
39:55 that he was right. It's just I think
39:57 after so many years of seeing how evil
40:01 the our government actually can be that
40:03 you go like, "Okay, I'm listening. All
40:05 right, fine. I I dismissed that out of
40:07 hound, but now I'm more or how about the
40:09 only question that matters is whether or
40:10 not something is true." Yeah.
40:12 And another way to put it, a phrase that
40:15 I've coined in and make copyright is
40:16 facts don't care about your feelings.
40:18 That's a good one. You like that?
40:19 Someone should really run with that. You
40:21 could get a long way. You could get like
40:22 a special deal with Facebook on that on
40:24 the basis of that. Um but uh but but I
40:26 actually agree with I agree with that,
40:28 right? And I agree. I don't think you
40:29 should hurt people's feelings on
40:30 purpose, but I think the the core
40:33 question, the only one that matters is
40:36 is something true. And I know that you
40:37 share that. And that's why and I I hate
40:39 to beat up on poor Douglas who's like a
40:40 sad a sad character, but he had this
40:44 line in here. Oh, this isn't Sorry, I
40:46 never go to my notes, but I'm No, I This
40:48 is from a guy called Sam Harris. I'm
40:51 loosely familiar. So, one of the easiest
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41:53 like Simplysafe. So Sam Harris, um, wow,
41:57 he doesn't care for you at all. or it
41:58 looks like me either, but whatever. I'll
42:00 ignore the stuff about me. I'm not even
42:02 exactly sure who Sam Harris is, but um a
42:05 sad atheist guy, but he describes you as
42:07 a pure misinformation artist who lies as
42:11 freely as he
42:13 breathes. And I just thought as I read
42:15 this, you can say, you know, Dave Smith,
42:17 I don't know, whatever. But I I feel
42:19 like that's the opposite of the truth. I
42:21 feel like maybe you lie under duress,
42:24 but in general you you are like very
42:27 focused on what you think is true. Well,
42:29 I mean,
42:30 again, I just feel like it's a I I
42:33 benefit in a way from us having this
42:36 conversation like after co and after
42:39 kind of all of these insane things that
42:42 Okay, so Sam Harris, what did I get
42:47 wrong? Like I don't think that if you're
42:49 gonna if you're gonna smear me as I'm
42:51 being a misinformation art, which I you
42:54 know I'll take that to I should make
42:55 t-shirt t-shirts about misinformation
42:57 artist. I'll take that. Pure
42:59 misinformation. Pure misinformation.
43:00 Everything you say is a lie. It's like
43:02 breathing to you. Dude, I got I got
43:04 called that throughout all of CO and I
43:06 was right about everything I was saying.
43:09 So keep calling me this. Okay, fine.
43:12 Make an argument. What have I said
43:13 that's wrong? Why does he Why is he so
43:15 mad at you? Oh, he Well, Sam, he's a
43:17 rationalist, right? Oh, yeah. Yeah. He's
43:19 the guy who uh defended the war in Iraq
43:22 and torture and uh fell for the Russia
43:25 gate Thought Trump was a
43:27 Russian spy, fell for lockdowns and
43:29 vaccine mandates and all this stuff. So,
43:32 I'll put my misinformation track record
43:34 up against Sam Harris's, you know,
43:37 whatever. I mean, I know he's got a
43:39 meditation app or something like that,
43:40 but did you see the Tim Dylan thing the
43:42 other day? Oh, so dude, it's so great.
43:44 That was like I texted him. I saw that
43:46 funny. He Tim Dylan the brilliant
43:48 comedian. Think about how Sam Harris is
43:51 a meditation app. I didn't even know
43:53 that. So by day he's a he's a meditation
43:56 guru and by night he's encouraging like
43:58 carpet bombing of children. I mean it's
44:01 just on it's just too ridiculous. and
44:03 you know all you know all of these guys
44:06 it's it's sad in a way because they're
44:09 it's you just you can't contradict
44:13 yourself on what your
44:15 entire like purpose was for your entire
44:19 career without some people noticing and
44:22 that's kind of what's going on with all
44:23 these why the emotion so I notice it
44:25 even now in our conversation you are
44:27 there's a lightness to the way you
44:29 describe things um you obviously have
44:31 passionate views
44:33 But you don't seem emotionally
44:35 overroought. Douglas seemed emotionally
44:38 overroought. This guy Harris seems
44:40 emotionally overroought. They seem very
44:42 emotional. What is
44:44 that? Well, I mean, I would say that um
44:49 kind of ironically, although not really
44:51 actually ironic, and this kind of goes
44:53 to, you know, the conversation that you
44:55 and Brett Weinstein were having the
44:56 other day, who I really love Brett. I
44:58 think he's he's great. Um, I'm on your
45:00 side of that debate. But I think one of
45:04 one of the fundamental flaws in atheism
45:07 is that it doesn't really exist. Yes.
45:11 They think that's the flaw in believing
45:12 in God. No, they see they think they
45:14 think the flaw in believing in God is
45:16 that God really doesn't exist. God does
45:18 exist. What doesn't exist are atheists.
45:21 There's no such thing. So true. And you
45:23 could even get into an like maybe if
45:25 there was such thing as atheists, it
45:27 would be a good thing to be one. But
45:29 there aren't. They don't exist. They all
45:32 have their religion. And it's it's
45:34 almost it it's almost by definition that
45:38 whatever your highest thing is becomes
45:40 your religion. Um I don't know if it's
45:42 quite by definition. And I suppose it is
45:45 it is theoretically possible to be an
45:47 atheist, but almost no one ever is. And
45:50 so what you're seeing is just that, you
45:52 know, I'm attacking their religion and
45:55 according to them that makes me guilty
45:56 of blasphemy. But it's just so
45:58 interesting that they're so brittle
46:00 about it. You'd think if you're an
46:01 atheist, you'd be like, does it really
46:02 matter? I mean, there's no right or
46:03 wrong obviously cuz how can the
46:06 authority on that? Well, there is no
46:07 authority. So it's all just a matter of
46:08 preference and in the end you just cease
46:10 to exist. And so the stakes are zero. So
46:13 what are you so mad about? Like why do
46:15 you care? You'd think everyone would be
46:16 like, "Well, how I'll take it a step
46:18 further. Sam Harris does not believe in
46:21 free will. So what is he upset with me
46:23 about? I have no choice. I have to be a
46:26 misinformation artist. This is what I'm
46:28 I'm wired to be a misinformation artist.
46:30 Right. So what are you upset with? And
46:32 he's not even making the choice to say
46:34 that. listen anytime and this was one of
46:36 I again I really really like Brett but I
46:38 think one of the the areas where he
46:40 failed kind of in that uh conversation
46:43 with you in that you know very friendly
46:45 debate is that he had to say several
46:49 times throughout it yes I live as if
46:52 what you're saying is correct but I view
46:54 things this way so yes I'd much rather
46:58 live but if
46:59 your if your like thesis involves you
47:03 having to engage engage in a
47:04 performative contradiction, then
47:07 something's not right with your theory.
47:09 And so Sam Harris will sit here and say,
47:11 "None of us have free will, but I'm
47:13 still going to act as if all of us have
47:15 free will." You've got a major flaw in
47:18 your theory that like this is just too
47:20 much. This is this is too f you can't do
47:23 that. That's not right. And so yes,
47:27 again, with all of them, the the bottom
47:29 line, I think, with a lot of these
47:30 people like and some have adapted better
47:32 than others. I think Brett's one of the
47:34 ones who's really adapted well from like
47:36 the old academia world to this new
47:39 podcast world that we're in now. But I
47:42 think the problem with a lot of them
47:43 like uh like Sam Harris and and I think
47:45 Douglas Murray too is that what they've
47:48 worked their entire career on has been
47:50 completely rejected and that's a tough
47:53 position to be in. Um but it's not
47:56 really I mean I spent my whole life in
47:58 cable news. It you know obviously is in
48:01 terminal decline. And I had all kinds of
48:03 views that I argued for passionately
48:04 that were totally wrong. I admitted it.
48:07 I gained perspective and humility
48:10 humility in admitting it. You're just a
48:12 human being. Yeah, but that listen, you
48:15 that may have happened kind of naturally
48:17 for you. I'm just saying when you run it
48:20 on scale, very few people are able to do
48:22 that. It's not hard. It's it's it's the
48:24 only act of liberation that's really
48:26 possible in this life is freeing
48:29 yourself from like the lies. And the
48:31 number one lie is I'm God. Yeah. And
48:34 like I'm omnisient or the, you know, was
48:36 perfectly wise person, whatever. It's
48:38 like, you know, you make mistakes.
48:39 You're you're a ridiculous primate. It's
48:42 a little fur. Like, just admit it.
48:44 There's just there. Look, you got some
48:46 things wrong. Yeah. But there's a
48:49 difference between that and your entire
48:53 foundation being built on hypocrisy and
48:56 that hypocrisy being shown. You know,
48:59 look, I mean, you can't make this stuff
49:00 up, right? Ben
49:02 Shapiro built a career opposing identity
49:08 politics as a proud Zionist.
49:12 Yeah. You listen, feel however you feel
49:15 about
49:17 Zionism. It's identity politics. Like,
49:19 like that is the definition of you could
49:22 not find a better example of a politics
49:24 built on an identity. And yet you're out
49:27 here saying facts don't care about your
49:29 feelings. Identity politics is wrong.
49:31 And then while you're saying that, your
49:34 number one priority, I know, is this
49:36 this manifestation of identity politics.
49:39 You can only keep that charade going for
49:41 so long. No, it's totally true. before
49:43 someone sees through it. There's
49:44 something in people that the the lowest
49:47 part of people that instinctively
49:49 accuses others of doing what they're
49:52 doing. And I've never really I man I
49:55 don't that's the one thing I don't want
49:56 to be is a guy who does that but I
49:58 remember Bill Crystal who I worked for
49:59 for years and really liked and was
50:00 grateful to and he was a great boss in
50:03 the 90s um and came out against me and
50:06 called me a Nazi and all this stuff like
50:08 without calling me by the way I called
50:09 him and asked him to lunch he refused he
50:11 wouldn't go to lunch with me end of our
50:13 relationship but one of the criticisms
50:15 against me I'll never forget it when I
50:17 realized this phenomenon was real was
50:19 when he accused me of advocating and I'm
50:21 quoting for an ethnostate
50:24 Now, I have a lot of flaws. They're all
50:27 in display. I've never wanted an
50:29 ethnostate. And it's like, wait, one of
50:32 us is for an ethnostate, and it's not
50:34 me. But you just said that like of all
50:36 the possible criticisms. It's just too
50:38 unbelievable. I mean, it's like
50:40 unbelievable. You're crystal accusing me
50:42 of wanting an ethnostate, but you like
50:44 you just like you almost like don't even
50:46 you can't even respond. You just have to
50:48 go like, "Hey." It's like I I didn't say
50:51 anything. I was like, "Okay, right."
50:53 Yes. You know, I people can't hear
50:55 themselves. I mean, you know, when
50:57 people get old, they you know, they tell
50:59 the same stories and you just, you know,
51:01 when you love them, you're indulgent.
51:03 But I I just hope that doesn't happen to
51:06 me. I hope I don't lose all
51:08 self-awareness to the point where I've
51:09 got like lunch on my chin and like
51:12 accuse other people of doing exactly
51:14 what I'm doing. Exactly what I'm doing.
51:16 Well, you're going you have lunch on
51:17 your chin. Like you, you know. Yeah.
51:19 That's you don't want to be there. I
51:21 don't want to be that guy. Um, and I
51:23 think that there's like look, obviously
51:26 like we're we're living through
51:28 something, you know, we're probably
51:30 living through several things that are
51:31 very profound, but one of the most
51:32 profound things has been this revolution
51:35 in in um information and the technology
51:39 and this it's led to this like kind of
51:41 mass decentralization of media and where
51:44 there's now like there's so many things
51:47 and shows and different voices, you
51:49 know, we I find people all the time who
51:51 have never heard of before. You know,
51:53 I'm sure you've had this experience,
51:54 too. You'll find someone you'll be like,
51:55 "Oh, that guy's actually really smart.
51:57 People should know about this guy. How
51:58 many followers? 7 million. Oh, he's got
52:00 7 million. Oh, he's huge. Like, I just
52:02 found some guy who is bigger than anyone
52:04 on cable news. And I didn't even know he
52:06 existed, you know." And so now it's just
52:09 because of this dynamic there aren't you
52:12 know as you know the the corporate media
52:16 apparatus like big newspapers and big
52:18 cable news shows and was very controlled
52:21 very controlled the range of allowable
52:24 opinion was very narrow it's what uh my
52:27 uh my good friend and brilliant
52:29 historian Tom Woods uh always called the
52:31 uh was it the the 3x6 card of allowable
52:35 opinion you know you get this area of
52:37 allowable opinion and then that's where
52:39 the conversation takes place. That's
52:41 been shattered into a million pieces and
52:44 now there's voices from all over the
52:45 place and some good and some great and
52:47 some bad and really bad. But it's just
52:51 much harder for people to you know that
52:53 control existed so that you don't get
52:55 exposed so that you don't get expos so
52:58 that you could go like look even the
53:00 right-winger John McCain agrees or even
53:03 the far-left activist Nancy Pelosi I
53:06 mean it's like dude have to
53:08 hear Sean Hannity goes the far left
53:11 Nancy Pelosi it's like how many leftists
53:14 have you actually talked to in your life
53:15 how many leftists have you ever read you
53:17 think Nancy Pelosi is a far-left it like
53:19 really they got her vineyard in Napa.
53:22 All these different, you know, these
53:25 different tools of corporations are left
53:27 and right. But so that's over now. And
53:30 now I think it's just much it's much
53:31 tougher to keep this charade going. And
53:34 it seems to be collapsing so fast. Yes.
53:36 Yes. And it's not again, you
53:39 could you could be honest about it and
53:42 and kind of maintain some of your
53:44 respect, but the the truth is that like
53:47 look, even when they'll say these
53:49 things like if you if you accuse Ben
53:52 Shapiro of having dual loyalty, they go,
53:56 "Well, that's an anti-semitic trope.
53:57 That means you hate the Jews." But then
54:00 he'll sit there in his own words and
54:02 say, I forget his exact quote, but it
54:04 was something like, "My favorite thing
54:05 about the United States of America is
54:07 that it protects Israel." And so, you're
54:10 already saying you have loyalty to both
54:12 of these countries. In fact, I'm not so
54:14 sure about the one of the loyalties, but
54:16 I'm very sure about the other one. And
54:18 that is not I'm sorry, that's not a
54:20 statement against Jewish people. I'm
54:22 Jewish. I love Jewish people. You know,
54:24 it's like I I get called a self-hating
54:25 Jew on Twitter or whatever. It could not
54:27 be further from the truth. I actually
54:28 really love Jewish people. There's many
54:30 things about Jewish culture that have,
54:32 you know, had a huge impact on me, made
54:34 me the person I am, made me a better
54:36 person uh for their their impact on me.
54:40 But this is a foreign government. Like
54:42 I'm I'm sorry. That's we're we're
54:44 allowed to talk about that if you you
54:46 know, I saw Glenn Beck the other day had
54:49 uh Douglas Murray on and he wasn't like
54:52 Glenn Beck wasn't like mean to me
54:53 personally, but which I appreciated. Um,
54:56 but he was just going I mean it was just
54:58 so ridiculous. But it's like you were
55:00 sitting here. We're going to we're
55:01 having a conversation about a foreign
55:04 government. You started crying on your
55:07 show talking about this foreign
55:09 government. That's weird. That's
55:12 weird. We We should not be doing that.
55:15 What the hell is going on here? Like I
55:17 don't even think you should cry about
55:18 our own government, you know? But if
55:20 you're going to cry about one, it should
55:21 be ours. And no, but no one would even
55:23 think to cry about our own, right? I
55:24 mean, like, come on. like let let's have
55:26 a real conversation about this and if
55:28 you don't especially and by the way this
55:30 is not my primary goal. My primary goal
55:33 is to tell the truth and to advocate for
55:35 what's good for our country. Um but if
55:40 you're concerned about like the young
55:42 men getting a little bit too radical and
55:44 and you know being too obsessed with the
55:47 Jews or too against the Jews which I do
55:49 think is a legit concern. It definitely
55:51 is. You know that's not good for you and
55:53 it's it's not good for you. It's not
55:54 good for the conflict. It's not good for
55:56 the country. I just don't think any of
55:58 racial collectivism always leads to bad
56:01 places. You don't want to you don't want
56:04 to embrace that stuff. But if you're
56:06 concerned about that, well then the
56:08 first thing you have to do is tell the
56:09 truth. You can't keep lying to people
56:11 and you can't you can't keep sitting
56:13 here and going like, "Oh, no. The
56:14 neoconservative." You can't say
56:16 neoconservative, right? Wasn't that Mark
56:17 uh Levin? Didn't he uh just say if the
56:20 neo concern Mark Levin who's a who I
56:23 also know I mean I've been in right-wing
56:25 world my whole life I know everybody I
56:27 work with Mark always got along with
56:28 Mark always been nice to me but yeah he
56:31 just accused Trump the Trump
56:33 administration of
56:34 anti-semitism for calling someone a
56:37 neocon well what he what he did was he
56:39 accused Steve Witoff of anti-semitism
56:42 right and I just want to say I think
56:44 Steve Wickoff is if there's anyone who
56:46 is you know has the hand of odd on him.
56:49 It seems to me, I sort of overstate it,
56:50 but I feel that way. It's Wickoff who's
56:52 like a thoroughly decent man and who was
56:55 running around the world trying to bring
56:56 peace. And also, by the way, nations who
56:59 single-handedly saved 20 Jewish
57:01 hostages. Well, exactly. I mean, I don't
57:03 know if they were all Jewish. I think
57:04 most of them were. I think almost all of
57:06 them were, but I think they got 20
57:07 hostages released in the phase one of
57:09 the ceasefire that he worked out. Then
57:11 Israel violated the ceasefire and so
57:13 they didn't get the other hostages back,
57:14 although thankfully the the American was
57:16 just released. But this guy, Wickoff,
57:19 has actually done more to help those
57:20 hostages. So, here's what I mean, here's
57:23 what he said. I actually wrote this down
57:24 cuz I was I was really bothered by it.
57:27 Um, this is Levin on Twitter, Mark
57:31 Levin, who works at Fox, which is like
57:33 basically seems to have turned his
57:34 programming over to advocating for a war
57:36 with Iran. Um, neocon is a pjorative for
57:40 Jew. Unbelievable. And this is in
57:44 response to Wickoff saying, quote, "The
57:46 neocon element believes that war is the
57:48 only way to solve things." So you have
57:50 Mark Levin calling Steve Witoff an
57:52 anti-semite. Right. Right. And again,
57:55 we've reached Pete Crate. I mean, I
57:56 think Wickoff is Jewish. Right. Again,
57:58 but it's I I don't even know, but again,
58:00 it shouldn't matter. It shouldn't really
58:01 matter. It doesn't matter. He's American
58:04 and he's on the side of peace and so I'm
58:06 for that guy. Um, but you know the crazy
58:09 thing, so I also I I at one point in the
58:12 debate with Douglas Murray, I said
58:14 something about the neoconservatives and
58:15 he went, "Ah, the n-word, you know,
58:18 the," you know, making a play on the
58:20 n-word or whatever. And it's it's
58:22 interesting. I mean, Doug Murray wrote
58:24 the book called Neoconservatism, Why We
58:27 Need It. It was his book. And so what
58:31 happened was for people who don't like
58:32 know you know a lot about this it's
58:35 there there was a this was their term
58:38 neoonservative was not a porative term
58:41 until the neoonservatives got control of
58:43 our foreign policy and ruined everything
58:46 and then it became a term that we'll
58:48 we'll call every war hawk we'll be like
58:50 oh another neocon now a lot of times we
58:53 will use the term when strictly speaking
58:56 this person may not have been a
58:57 self-identified neoconservative it's
58:59 just become a pard a porative for
59:01 someone trying to get us into stupid
59:03 war. But the neoconservatives
59:04 themselves, the original group, this was
59:06 their name for themselves. And you,
59:08 right, you were there. You worked
59:10 alongside them. I worked for them. I
59:12 worked for Bill Crystal for 5 and a half
59:13 years. I was a neocon. Yes. It wasn't
59:15 in. And they had no Episcopalian neocon.
59:19 But look, they had no problem using the
59:20 term until everybody started to hate
59:22 them. And then they went, you can't call
59:24 us this. But it's like, no, you guys,
59:27 like this was your own term that you
59:30 used for yourself. You can read their
59:31 own documents and the project for a new
59:33 American century. You read the clean
59:35 break memo. They laid out what they
59:37 wanted their foreign policy to be. I
59:39 mean, literally, right? Wasn't it um oh
59:42 god, I can't remember whose quote it
59:44 was. I know that um a bunch of them
59:46 loved sharing it, but what is it that
59:48 every 10 years we got to throw a small
59:50 puny little country up against the wall
59:51 and show them who's boss? This was their
59:54 foreign policy. We need multiple
59:56 theaters of war in the Middle East in
59:58 order to ensure the new century is an
60:00 American century. So immoral and
60:02 disgusting. Yes. And also that and look
60:05 as anybody can read, I think we talked
60:07 about this last time I was on, but
60:08 anybody can read for themselves the
60:10 clean break memo. It was written by
60:12 Richard Pearl and David Worms to
60:14 Benjamin Netanyahu that was like, "Look,
60:16 here is our plan." And the break was
60:18 from the peace process. The break was
60:21 from Oslo. And they go, "Look, here's
60:22 the plan." And you know how Yeetszak
60:24 Rabin and all these liberal uh Jews are
60:26 saying we have to make peace with the
60:28 Palestinians so that we can then make
60:30 peace with the broader Arab world? Well,
60:32 no. We got a new plan. We're going to
60:33 break with all of that. We're not doing
60:35 this land swap thing. We're not giving
60:37 the Palestinians a state. What we'll do
60:38 is we'll have America overthrow all of
60:40 these other governments. That way you
60:42 never have to make peace with the
60:43 Palestinians and you can just enjoy
60:46 domination over the region. And I from
60:48 my reading of it, it does seem to me
60:50 that a lot of them believed it. You
60:52 know, I think a lot of them hubris and
60:54 you know, yeah. Yeah. We overthrow
60:56 Saddam Hussein, this will democracy will
60:58 sweep the region, then we'll overthrow
61:00 Gaddafi, then we'll overthrow the
61:01 Mullers in Iran, and then the region
61:03 will be way better. Except every time
61:04 they actually did it, it resulted in
61:06 nothing but disaster, which really could
61:08 have been very easily predicted and was
61:10 predicted by wiser people than the
61:13 neocons. But all these years later, you
61:16 either have to like apologize for your
61:19 role in this catastrophe or defend your
61:21 role in this catastrophe and talk about
61:23 how you still really believe it was the
61:25 right thing to do. But you can't sit
61:26 here and say you're not an expert and
61:29 you're a Jew hater if you say the word
61:31 neoconservative. That's not an
61:33 appropriate response. But if if Mark
61:35 Levin is calling the Trump
61:36 administration anti-semitic, Steve
61:38 Wickoff,
61:40 we're at the end of something and the
61:42 beginning of something new. I mean,
61:44 that's right. Right. I mean, I that's so
61:47 I almost called Mark when I saw it cuz I
61:50 I really I know him, but I really love
61:52 Steve Wickoff and I think his decency I
61:54 don't agree with him on everything at
61:55 all, but his decency is just palpable. I
61:59 mean, it just comes through. his concern
62:01 for people, his reasonableness, uh, is
62:04 just so obvious and the effects of what
62:06 he's done have been so great. Great for
62:07 America, great for the world. So, I
62:09 almost I was so offended and then I
62:11 thought, I'm not going to solve anything
62:13 by calling Mark Levin and scolding him,
62:16 probably scream at
62:17 me. But, but I did think like he's not
62:21 stupid. If you're saying if you're
62:22 calling Steve Wickoff an anti-semite on
62:24 Twitter, like you know you're losing,
62:27 right? Is that what that is? And it's
62:29 such a um you know in the what's what's
62:31 weird is that at the same time because I
62:34 know all of these these people will
62:36 they'll be lecturing me about how I
62:38 don't understand like the gravity of
62:42 anti-semitism and it's like no actually
62:45 I kind of do and I would never just
62:47 throw the accusation around like that.
62:49 I'm very hesitant to ever call any
62:51 person a bigot or a Jew hater or or
62:55 racist or any of these things because
62:56 it's like you're you're intentionally
62:59 trying to to dehumanize them on the
63:02 accusation that they're dehumanizing
63:04 others. Scaring the crap out of people.
63:05 I'm getting texts from people I really
63:07 love personally who are very very, you
63:10 know, who aren't paying a lot of
63:11 attention. and they just hear that
63:13 there's anti-semitism and I'm part of it
63:15 and hurts their feelings and they're
63:17 confused and upset and it's like it it
63:19 has such a divisive effect. Yeah. Like
63:22 for real and it's I'm a little bit
63:26 concerned. Okay, so it's time for an
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64:23 and you'll be happy you did it. Yeah, I
64:25 mean, I'm I'm concerned about all of it.
64:27 Um, none of it's particularly good. But
64:30 there's also something which is it's
64:32 interesting to me as somebody who is uh
64:34 I am not a conservative. I mean, I'm a
64:36 bit of a right-winger, but I'm not a
64:37 conservative. Um, I'm kind of a radical
64:40 libertarian, and I kind of, you know, if
64:41 Tom Tillis is what a conservative is,
64:43 then I'm not Yeah. Right. I mean, I
64:45 mean, there are some, as a libertarian,
64:47 like there certainly are some things
64:48 that I think ought be conserved, you
64:50 know, like I I think like the Bill of
64:53 Rights and the and our traditions and I
64:56 think Christianity. I think there's a
64:57 lot of things that like should be
64:58 conserved, but it's so bizarre to me to
65:02 that now that I'm at this level where
65:03 it's like I'm I'm talking or not talking
65:05 to but being lectured to by like the
65:08 leaders of Conservatism, Inc. and I have
65:10 to explain to them that like I don't
65:14 believe in moral relativism. Like I like
65:17 as if this is like a new thing for them
65:19 to wrap their head around. And you've
65:21 gotten calls from Khan, Inc. trying to
65:23 bring you into line. I've I've gotten
65:26 for the first time in my career really
65:28 I've gotten a few of the calls. Um but I
65:30 mean it's it's I'm too far gone for
65:33 them. You know if I if you were going to
65:34 get me to sell out you would have had to
65:36 get me a while ago. You just shouldn't
65:37 have let me too late. Well it is I
65:40 remember so when I this is like I want
65:42 to say like 20 2014 2015 it was
65:46 somewhere in there. um where I start the
65:48 first time I ever got on television, the
65:50 first person who ever put me on TV was
65:51 Kennedy. Um who I just adore and will
65:55 for the rest of my days. Sweet girl.
65:57 Just like one of the sweetest, kindest,
66:00 really funny, really smart, weirdly
66:02 smart, but like when I say weirdly
66:04 smart, I I mean weirdly smart, like
66:07 knows about stuff that no one should
66:08 know about and then has like a lot of
66:10 information about it. But she's a
66:11 wonderful person. So she was a she put
66:13 me on Fox uh business and then um Greg
66:17 Gutfeld and Tom Shaloo who was hosting
66:20 Red Eye at the time, they started using
66:22 me on their Fox News shows and so it was
66:23 like the first time in my career I'd
66:25 like started getting on TV and I
66:27 remember a few people at Fox had told me
66:30 that they were like hey there's uh like
66:33 some people in management are like
66:35 interested in you like they're they're
66:37 taking you know some interest in you.
66:39 Um, and then it was kind of explained to
66:40 me, not like ever directly, but it was
66:42 like, you know,
66:43 you're you're a little out there for Fox
66:46 News. And I remember at the time I was
66:50 broke. I mean, dead broke only on just
66:53 to be I put a finer point on that. What
66:54 do they mean? Not in your personal life.
66:56 Your personal life more button down than
66:58 most people who are Well, at the time it
67:00 wasn't. This is before I was married and
67:01 had kids and stuff, but that's not what
67:03 they care about. They don't care. I
67:04 found out pretty quickly uh by just
67:07 doing shows at Fox News and then going
67:08 to the bar afterward with some of the
67:10 people there, you're like, "Oh,
67:11 Conservatism, Inc. is not exactly what
67:13 you thought." They're actually pretty
67:14 liberal uh when it comes down to the bar
67:17 hang after the show, I would say. But
67:19 but it was, you know, I was a Ron Paul
67:22 guy and and I was I was younger, so I
67:24 was a a more you know, you know, Ron
67:27 Paul was a country doctor wearing a suit
67:29 and tie. I was like a kid from Brooklyn
67:30 who was like, "You're all a bunch of
67:32 killers." You know, like this is all
67:33 the foreign policy stuff. It
67:35 was all the foreign policy stuff as it
67:36 always is. As it's that's always what
67:38 it's really all about. Um, and I don't
67:40 say that cuz I want it to be the case.
67:42 It's just the fact that that's always
67:43 really what it's all about. Took me 40
67:44 years to figure this out. But yes,
67:45 that's right. You're correct. By the
67:47 way, all these uh all of these even
67:49 debates today, the people on Twitter
67:51 talking about the woke right, it just
67:53 happens to be that everyone who's
67:55 labeled woke right are the ones who are
67:57 opposing American wars. And everybody
67:59 who's throwing out the accusation all
68:01 happen to support them. What's winced?
68:03 It's a nonsense term that they're trying
68:06 to say. It's it's totally ridiculous.
68:08 But but let me just uh on the Fox News
68:10 thing. So I remember then and this is I
68:13 was broke. I mean like broke like where
68:16 they're like hey let's go grab a beer
68:17 after the show. I'm like, "All right,
68:19 are you buying? Cuz I can't cuz if not,
68:21 like, let's go grab a six-pack at the
68:23 store and go back to my apartment and
68:25 cuz like I just had no money." And I
68:27 would have at the time when they said
68:29 they were like, "Look, they're thinking
68:30 about you for one of these
68:31 contributorships, you know, it was
68:33 whatever it is, it may give you like 100
68:34 grand a year or something like that if
68:35 you get one." It would have been like
68:36 life-changing for me. Life-changing. And
68:39 I remember consciously at the time
68:41 thinking, you know, at a time when I'm
68:43 making 25 grand a year, thinking, man,
68:46 maybe I just don't talk about the
68:47 foreign policy stuff. Maybe I just do
68:49 that. And then even in the moment I
68:51 thought about it, just being like, nah,
68:53 Ron Paul's my hero. My hero are the
68:55 people who tell the truth. Yes. So like,
68:56 I'm just not going to. But so if I
68:58 didn't if I didn't sell out then,
69:01 the idea that I'm going to sell out now
69:03 when I'm doing really well, it's like
69:06 no, that's ridiculous. Like no, you know
69:08 what I'm saying? Like it's like that's
69:09 that's insane. It was just funny that I
69:12 think that um that Murray thought he was
69:15 administering the kill shot. I think
69:17 that's what it was supposed to be. But
69:19 the opposite happened. It's like I I and
69:22 not to brag, I knew this as I was
69:24 watching it. I was like, Dave is about
69:27 to become way more famous, but not just
69:30 famous, more authoritative, more
69:32 respected, more closely listened to than
69:34 ever before. Has that been your
69:36 experience? Yeah. Yeah. I mean, it's
69:37 it's essentially just done nothing
69:39 except make me bigger, you know. And
69:41 were you Did you pay Douglas to do that?
69:45 I did not. I don't have that type of
69:47 money. The fight on purpose. I don't I
69:49 wish I had that. I'm doing okay. I don't
69:51 have money like that. I don't have buy
69:52 off Douglas Murray uh money. I think
69:54 he's I don't think it would take too
69:56 much. Well, he's it it's not just, you
69:58 know, one of the things that was
69:59 interesting is that it's not just So,
70:01 there was the debate. There was the
70:03 reaction to the debate, but then what
70:05 was really interesting is that then
70:07 there was the reaction to just because
70:08 it became such a big thing, it ended up
70:10 coming up on Rogan's podcast with other
70:13 guests like later on and they're all
70:15 just kind of making fun of of Douglas
70:17 and how ridiculous he was cuz he was
70:18 ridiculous. And then it's almost like
70:21 you see the realization set in with
70:23 those people that oh Joe was what
70:27 what essentially happened here, right?
70:29 And this is I think for almost everyone
70:31 to see is that I've been debating all
70:34 these guys on Israel Palestine and I've
70:36 been beating all these guys in these
70:37 debates and I'm I'm not saying I'm
70:39 beating I'm just saying like the
70:40 reaction the Oxford style voting is that
70:42 I I win dominantly and then Douglas
70:44 Murray was almost brought in as the the
70:47 boss dad's here right like this is the I
70:49 mean Ben Shapiro is not going to do it
70:51 he's not going to come debate me and so
70:53 who is it who's the best guy to come do
70:56 well here's Douglas Murray the guy who's
70:57 just known for his pros and his rhetoric
71:00 and how good he is at debating. I mean,
71:03 this is what he's known for. And then he
71:04 came in and couldn't lay a land a blow.
71:07 He couldn't take on one argument. He had
71:09 to just be resorted to like it. It was
71:12 like you were debating an anti-racist
71:14 college professor on what who's just
71:16 going to tell you the whole time that
71:17 I'm not even allowed to have this
71:18 opinion. It was just that. And so then
71:21 what do you think the response to that
71:22 was? Here's here you have Joe Rogan who
71:25 has got some of these guys on his show
71:27 who clearly are making a care. goes,
71:28 "All right, yeah, this is a pretty good
71:30 argument that this guy's making." And he
71:32 brought, you know, as much as Douglas
71:34 was complaining in his his op-eds after
71:36 the fact that it's so unfair that I
71:38 couldn't just go on alone. I had to go
71:40 on with this guy who doesn't know what
71:41 he's talking about. It's like, yeah, but
71:43 this was your opportunity, man. You
71:45 could have blown me out of the water and
71:47 then had Rogan being like, "Ah,
71:50 Maybe I should have more experts on.
71:51 like maybe I've got this comedian guy
71:53 who I think's making really good points,
71:54 but then this guy just came in and like
71:56 totally took him on and but he was
71:59 unwilling or unable to do that. And so
72:02 that was the next freak out is they
72:04 realize that like oh Joe just got pushed
72:06 more in my direction as his whole
72:09 audience did. I wonder though if there's
72:11 not something a little more sinister
72:13 underneath it. I mean you keep referring
72:15 to this as debate but it wasn't of
72:17 course it was not a debate. It was
72:19 Douglas trying to scold Joe into never
72:22 having you or anyone like you on his
72:24 show again. It was basically he was
72:26 playing the heavy a little bit. It was
72:28 kind of threatening. I thought like you
72:30 know you don't really know because you
72:32 were a sitcom actor/ comedian/bo hunter
72:34 that actually you're playing with some
72:36 pretty serious Joe Rogan and we've
72:39 been watching and maybe you should stop
72:40 having these people on. I mean that was
72:42 definitely the vibe I got from it. Oh,
72:44 no question. It was they even used the
72:46 word um when he was talking to uh Barry
72:48 Weiss um you know that embodiment of
72:51 expertise uh that is Barry Weiss uh they
72:54 they were talking and he used the word
72:57 platforming that Joe shouldn't be
72:59 platforming all of these people. It's
73:01 like okay so you're you're look I I'm
73:03 saying this is just Animal Farm. We're
73:05 at the end of Animal Farm where the pigs
73:06 and the people are indistinguishable.
73:08 Like if you're a conservative using the
73:10 word platform as a verb. Yeah. like how
73:13 long before you call me a white
73:15 supremacist actually which essentially I
73:17 guess white supremacist isn't the term
73:19 but anti-semite is the term that they're
73:20 going with. It's the exact same
73:22 playbook. It's and then they have the
73:24 balls to whip around and call you woke
73:26 right. Yes, that's right. I'm like it's
73:29 Bill Crystal calling me a you know
73:32 calling for an ethnostate. Yes. It's
73:34 it's all the same thing. Right. You're
73:35 sitting here there we have in this
73:37 country right now we have speech laws
73:40 being passed you know in the name of
73:43 students feeling not safe on college
73:45 campuses and you get the accusation of
73:48 bigotry used to shut down real disscent
73:51 and real conversations and then they're
73:53 going to turn around and say the other
73:54 side is
73:55 woke. So that's when I stopped laughing.
73:58 That I mean that is
74:00 um shocking to me. And the fact that the
74:03 Congress had scheduled it was thanks to
74:05 Marjorie Taylor Green. It was pulled off
74:06 the schedule. But God bless her. But um
74:10 what a weird world we're in. Where she
74:12 is the savior. Marjorie Taylor Green is
74:14 who that's where we're at. You know why?
74:15 Because Marjorie is totally sincere.
74:17 Yeah. She's actually not a liar. She's
74:19 sincere. That's why I hate her. Uh but
74:21 but there was a
74:23 bl vote scheduled on a bill that would
74:26 have made it a felony for Americans to
74:28 participate in a boycott of Israel and
74:32 is someone who has zero interest in
74:33 participating in any kind of boycott,
74:34 much less against Israel. I'm just not
74:36 interested. I'm happy whatever buy the
74:38 hummus and use the software. I I don't
74:40 care. Um, but I probably would have
74:43 engaged in one just to make the point
74:45 that I'm a free man in a free country
74:47 and we can't like how could you even
74:49 consider voting on something like that?
74:51 And isn't the most outrageous part of it
74:54 or at least to me I mean I guess it's
74:55 all outrageous but the most the crazy
74:58 thing is that we've and we've seen this
75:01 in uh in the last decade where all like
75:05 Hollywood types and like big musicians
75:07 would boycott red states like if they
75:10 tried to pass like a six week heartbeat
75:12 bill for abortion boycott. Yeah.
75:15 Boycott. So you could boycott states in
75:17 our own country, but you can't boycott a
75:20 foreign country. It's like the the
75:24 double standard there. Again, this is
75:25 why I said the thing about like
75:27 relativism. Um because in the same way
75:30 that um you know that people will talk
75:32 about constantly and the same people who
75:34 will harp on, you know, anti-semitism on
75:37 Twitter and like I'm not denying
75:39 something's going on there clearly.
75:41 Yeah, like there's there's a real thing
75:43 happening here. And it's not, as I've
75:45 said, and again, this isn't necessarily
75:47 the most important aspect to it. But
75:50 personally, one of the things that
75:51 annoys me about that is like it's not
75:53 helping my argument. Like, it's not it's
75:55 it's an albatross around my neck. And
75:58 it's the reason why every goddamn debate
75:59 that I'm in, the first thing they're
76:01 going to bring up is, "Well, look at all
76:02 these people on Twitter who are saying
76:04 all this stuff." So, I wish those people
76:05 would knock it off. But you also, okay,
76:10 we don't need two standards here. One
76:12 standard will do just fine. Let's have
76:14 one standard and apply this across the
76:16 board because the amount of anti-Muslim
76:19 bigotry, anti-Palestinian bigotry,
76:21 dehumanizing of the entire Palestinian
76:24 people has engaged in for 20 years.
76:26 Yeah, that's right. And then they're
76:27 going to turn around and be like, "Oh my
76:29 god, there's all this big there's all
76:30 this dehumanizing bigotry out there."
76:32 It's like, yeah, none of that is good.
76:34 Like that none of that is good. It's not
76:36 good for you. It's not good for the
76:37 conversation. It's just bad. You don't
76:39 want to dehumanize an entire group of
76:41 people. Human beings like human beings,
76:43 you know, and that should be fairly
76:44 obvious. But also, I I will say that,
76:49 you know, Donald Trump, who I voted for
76:51 and supported in this last election, and
76:53 I think has done some really good things
76:55 in his first 100 days or so, and some
76:57 not so good things. But, you know, I
77:00 mean, he he would turn in the debate and
77:02 call Joe Biden a Palestinian. He said
77:05 this about Chuck Schumer, too. He's
77:07 basically a Palestinian. You're like,
77:08 whoa. And for all the people who have
77:11 been screaming bigotry for the last
77:13 decade, no one ever thought to be like,
77:15 hey, you know, that's not like an
77:16 insult. I know it's not an insult to
77:18 call someone a Palestinian. I've met
77:20 lots of Palestinians who are really
77:21 great people. There's nothing wrong with
77:23 them. And again, like if anyone if a
77:26 presidential candidate ever like stood
77:27 up in the debate and went, "Ah, this
77:29 guy's a real Jew." We'd all be like,
77:30 "Whoa, what the hell is that?" You don't
77:33 get to say that in a political debate.
77:35 And so there's this there's a ton of
77:36 this. You you have um you know Nikki
77:40 Haley going over and signing bombs. Hard
77:42 to overstate how much I hate that by the
77:44 way. Yeah. Well, right. And and I mean
77:46 there are a lot of unreasonable
77:48 Palestinians. Of course. There are also
77:49 some wonderful a lot of Christian a lot
77:51 of Christian Palestinians. A lot of
77:53 wonderful Muslim Palestinians.
77:56 Um so I hate that. I just want It's
77:58 terrible. Yeah. It's terrible. It's
77:59 terrible on any side. You don't
78:01 dehumanize people like that, right? Um,
78:04 and so what's his name? Um, I'm
78:06 blinking. What's that? The congressman
78:08 in Florida, Randy Fine. Is Fine his last
78:10 name? I don't know. But did you see the
78:12 stuff he's posted? Like a nut. Oh my
78:14 god. It's just, you know, so again.
78:16 Okay. You want to talk about He's the
78:18 one who's like, "We want to kill all
78:19 their children or something." Well,
78:20 someone basically like uh I think
78:22 someone tweeted like a a picture of a
78:24 dead Palestinian baby and he said like,
78:26 "Good, we need more or something like
78:28 that." It was something really close to
78:29 that. I don't I don't want to get this
78:31 wrong. Who could vote for someone like
78:32 that? Well, Trump endorsed him after
78:35 that. After he said it was good that a
78:37 baby was dead. I mean, you know, again,
78:39 I would love to have him on. Pull up the
78:40 actual tweet on that cuz I don't want to
78:42 like misremember it, but it was
78:43 something really egregious. Um, and
78:45 he's, you know, there's just look,
78:47 there's a lot of this stuff is how you
78:48 get Nikki Haley signing bombs that are
78:51 about to go get dropped on women and
78:53 children. You're like, I'm sorry. That's
78:55 sickening. Like what the hell is
78:57 that? Like it's it what are we a part of
78:59 some death cult or something? I mean
79:01 this is like real. And so of course then
79:02 you know Douglas Murray's book is like
79:05 democracies and death cults or whatever.
79:08 And um which is kind of funny in a way
79:10 uh to be
79:13 pro-democracies while you're also making
79:15 the argument for expertise cuz you would
79:18 think like if you're for democracy the
79:20 whole point of this the whole point of
79:22 experts is to explain it to regular
79:24 people who will ultimately have the
79:26 authority of deciding which experts are
79:28 in charge and which experts are not in
79:30 charge. You know, there's a little
79:31 contradiction there, but again, this is
79:33 my issue. And this is where I think
79:35 Tucker, in some way, we're really like
79:37 kindred spirits. What a higher IQ you
79:40 have than Douglas Murray. It just cracks
79:42 me up. Well, he's he's he's got a very
79:44 high verbal IQ. He's more talented in a
79:46 lot of ways than me. I'm just I'm I'm
79:48 telling the truth. Um No, no, but I
79:50 mean, that's such a deep contradiction
79:53 that I I doubt he's aware of. Probably
79:55 not. Um, but I will say this and this is
79:57 where I think in some ways this is why
79:58 me and you always get along. I think
80:00 we're kindred spirits in this way in
80:02 some sense. But I really do I mean this
80:04 I mean this so sincerely in my soul in
80:08 my heart of hearts I'm a crotchety old
80:10 right-winger. Yeah. Like that's who I
80:12 want to be. Okay. That's I try my best.
80:15 I want to be I I'm a I'm not just like a
80:18 a
80:20 western chauvinist or whatever. Like I
80:22 think western society is better than
80:24 everything else. I think it's I'm a
80:26 libertarian and I think it's one of the
80:27 goofiest things about libertarians in
80:29 general that they kind of try to run
80:31 away from that and be egalitarian to
80:33 some degree. That's ridiculous. What are
80:35 you talking you believe in individual
80:36 liberty? Well, then you don't get to say
80:38 every civilization is equal cuz only one
80:40 of them respects individual liberty and
80:42 that's the better one. Okay, that's the
80:44 I by your own definition. That's right.
80:47 So screw all this other egalitarianism
80:49 is a revolt against nature as the great
80:51 Murray Rothbard wrote. It's I'm I'm
80:53 against all of that. I don't believe in
80:55 relativism. I don't believe in all
80:56 cultures are equal. I would like to sit
80:58 here and look down on the Muslim world.
81:01 That's what I would like to do because
81:03 my society is so much better. And if
81:05 anything, I'd be lecturing you. You guys
81:07 got to do liberty better. You guys don't
81:08 really even understand how a free
81:10 society works. I'd like to be there.
81:12 That's actually what that's what
81:14 confirms my bias is like stuff like
81:17 that. The problem is I just know too
81:18 much about our government and what our
81:20 government's done to these people. And
81:22 not just what we've done to them, but
81:23 that we've been propping up the
81:24 Islamists for 40 years. Literally. And
81:27 so what are we talking about here? You
81:28 can't then turn around and go, "Look at
81:30 them. They're a bunch of Islamists." No,
81:32 I know what you did. You propped up the
81:33 Islamist so you didn't have to deal with
81:35 the commies. Like regardless of any of
81:37 that. I just again I insist on one
81:40 standard for everything. If you're going
81:42 to say Hamas is a death cult, what the
81:44 hell is the US government? What is the
81:46 Israeli government? You get to sit here
81:48 as my government has in the last 25
81:52 years destroyed Iraq, Afghanistan,
81:55 Syria, Libya, Somalia, Yemen, Ukraine,
81:59 and now Gaza. That's what my
82:01 government's done. I don't get to call
82:03 someone else a death cult. I'd like to
82:05 I'd like to just look down at them as a
82:07 death cult, but sorry, we're the biggest
82:09 purveyors of violence in the world, not
82:11 Vladimir Putin. And like again, it's
82:14 just if you look at these things, you
82:16 just have to have one standard and apply
82:18 them across the board. This is what I've
82:20 been arguing the whole time. And if
82:21 you're going to say it's like, okay,
82:23 October 7th was horrible. It was
82:24 absolutely horrible. Why was it
82:26 horrible? Oh yeah, because intentionally
82:29 killing innocent civilians is like one
82:31 of the most evil things you could ever
82:33 do. Okay, then
82:36 because people are what matter. Yeah. In
82:39 the end, right? And all your your
82:42 theories are valid to the extent that
82:43 they serve people and when they when
82:45 they hurt people then they're invalid,
82:47 you know. I think Yeah, I think so. So,
82:50 you said that there's this um brand new
82:53 media landscape, information landscape,
82:56 possibility of true freethinking and
82:58 free speech. I think it's all true
83:00 because the old control system has
83:03 shattered as you said. So, we're living
83:05 in this just incredible moment. How long
83:08 can it last?
83:11 That's a good question. Um, it's very
83:14 hard, you know, it's very hard to make
83:15 predictions because it's such a new
83:17 model, right? And it's like we really
83:19 don't know much about this. You know,
83:21 one of the things that I find that um,
83:23 which, you know, you never want to get
83:24 ahead of yourself, especially these
83:26 days. Um, and there's so many things
83:28 that could happen that it's kind of like
83:29 impossible to even know what 2028 looks
83:33 like. Yes. But, so I'm assuming right
83:35 now JD Vance is probably going to be the
83:38 guy. Hope so. Yeah, I hope so too. Um
83:41 and so you you look at this dynamic
83:43 where you go okay so part
83:46 of so you look at Camala Harris's
83:48 campaign and say Joe Biden the same way
83:51 and Joe Biden specifically because he
83:52 was scenile not you know Joe Biden
83:54 younger Joe Biden while he was never a
83:56 very bright guy maybe would have been a
83:59 little bit different politically but
84:01 Camal Harris so she kind of famously
84:04 infamously now turned down the Joe Rogan
84:06 experience she could have been on the
84:07 show but she didn't now a A lot of
84:10 people uh were saying, "Oh, what a
84:12 stupid move." Uh turning that down. I
84:14 kind of disagree. I go, "That probably
84:16 was the right move." You know, if you're
84:18 if you were in if if you had no soul and
84:20 you're working for the Camala Harris
84:22 campaign and your only objective in this
84:23 world was to get her elected and that
84:25 invite came in, you're probably going,
84:27 "No, no, no, no, no, no. We can't. You
84:30 will be exposed. You can't go do this."
84:32 The the fact is that Camala Harris, by
84:35 the nature of who she is as a person and
84:38 by the nature of what she was running on
84:41 is not built for a three-hour unedited,
84:45 unscripted conversation. You can't do
84:47 that, you know, like say whatever you
84:49 will about Donald Trump. The man's got a
84:50 lot of flaws, but he is built for that.
84:52 He could do eight hours, I think,
84:54 easily. You know, like he's without
84:56 going to the bathroom, right? Yeah.
84:57 Which is what I heard. And Joe said he
84:59 didn't go before or after. True. I've
85:02 never done the Joe Rogan experience and
85:03 not gone to the bathroom before or
85:04 after. The midbreak leak always. Yeah,
85:06 of course. Insane. The guy's not human.
85:08 It's unbelievable. But okay, so going
85:12 just into 2028, think about what a
85:15 change this
85:16 is. This is the new standard. To be a
85:19 presidential candidate, you have to be
85:21 able to go and do a three-hour podcast.
85:23 And actually, probably several of them,
85:25 right? I mean, Trump did a whole bunch
85:27 of them before he got elected, and she
85:30 didn't and lost. That's it. And so, that
85:32 in itself just changes everything. Now
85:35 we have to actually see who you are as a
85:37 person, you know, because it doesn't
85:39 even matter. It doesn't even matter what
85:41 you're talking about for 3 hours. It
85:42 doesn't even matter if you're getting
85:43 grilled. So true. It's just I get to see
85:46 who you are and it comes out. So, okay.
85:49 No one can play a role for 3 hours,
85:51 right? So, that's the new normal. You
85:54 know, that's that in itself is a huge
85:57 transformation. I think that has to be
85:58 stopped. I think that has to be stopped.
86:01 And it, you know, and I don't want to be
86:04 like too paranoid, but one of the exp I
86:07 think some of the the anger and the hate
86:09 online is
86:11 um, you know, is organic and it's rooted
86:14 in frustration and facts in some cases.
86:16 And I, you know, I'm not, it's not all
86:19 bad, but some of it is
86:21 so clearly
86:23 inorganic, it just obviously is, that
86:27 you sort of wonder like, is this all a
86:29 pretext for shutting it down? I just
86:31 can't escape that. Yeah. Look, I I I get
86:35 your point and that
86:37 certainly, you know, like I never know
86:40 what is, you know, a pretext or what is
86:42 not, but it's certainly like, oh, this
86:44 is going to be used that way. So, like
86:46 that's another thing. It's very
86:47 shortsighted, you know, for for anyone,
86:50 you know, it's kind of like nobody ever,
86:53 which I get it. It's it's a little bit
86:55 difficult to do cuz it's like second or
86:57 third order thinking, but no one ever
86:59 kind of thinks about like what the
87:01 reaction is going to be to what they're
87:03 doing. It's just whether they can get
87:04 away with it in the moment, but it's not
87:06 the fact that it's like, hey, there is
87:08 going to be a correction for this and
87:09 almost certainly an overcorrection cuz
87:11 that's always the case. You know, it
87:13 doesn't seem like any of those uh
87:15 leftists ever thought about when they
87:17 were pushing like all the trans and the
87:18 kids stuff, they'd be like, "What do you
87:20 think the result of this is going to
87:21 be?" You go, "Oh, here's the result.
87:23 Donald Trump winning every swing state.
87:25 That's the result. So Oh, and a
87:27 handmaid's tail like ultimate ultimately
87:30 we're going to have Sharia law. Well,
87:32 it's but it does, you know, it's like,
87:34 right? No, people always like, really?
87:36 How did the Muslims take over Europe?
87:38 Because Europe went That's why,
87:40 right? Right. Right. You're going to see
87:42 white girls begging for Sharia law by
87:44 the end. And of course, of course,
87:45 there's like there's many factors
87:47 involved, but there's no question that
87:49 there are these these cycles. And um I
87:52 do think there's there's an onus on say
87:57 people who do you know want who who were
88:01 against the censorship regime and were
88:03 against or are against the US is Israeli
88:07 you know special relationship it's like
88:09 okay but if you've got the freedom to
88:11 actually speak about this now understand
88:13 a couple things understand that like
88:15 you're getting something that
88:17 generations before you they never had
88:19 generations before you your career
88:20 career would have been ruined. You never
88:22 would have been allowed to say these
88:24 things. And there does that carries with
88:26 it a responsibility, you know, it
88:28 carries with it a responsibility to do
88:30 this in a way that like number one,
88:33 you're getting it right. You're not
88:35 being sloppy. You're not leading people
88:37 down a bad path. Uh you're not
88:39 demonizing people who don't deserve to
88:42 be demonized, who are not a part of
88:43 this. and ultimately that you won't be
88:46 handing the excuse to the other side who
88:48 obviously as you said needs to re they
88:52 need these guys cannot compete in a free
88:54 market and so they have to rig the
88:56 market in their favor they had forever
88:58 they had the market rigged in their
88:59 favor for the first time now they kind
89:01 of don't they still do a little bit but
89:03 they don't in terms of the conversation
89:05 they still certainly do in terms of the
89:07 power of government but they don't in
89:09 terms of the conversation it's like okay
89:11 what do you want to do with that Now,
89:14 the problem is that so much has been
89:16 hidden either intentionally or just
89:19 through kind of the a veil of
89:21 misdirection um that people are learning
89:24 a lot of stuff at once. Yeah. And it's
89:26 frying some circuits. And I think the
89:29 the thing that I try to meditate on
89:31 every single day is that I am commanded
89:33 to and intend to treat each individual
89:36 as an individual. Period. Period. Yeah.
89:40 And when you do that, it keeps you from
89:42 going totally insane. And it also opens
89:45 you up to the beauty of life, to the joy
89:47 of life, which is being surprised by
89:48 people and their complexity, good and
89:50 bad, and like the capacity of someone
89:52 like Steve Wickoff to like do stuff. If
89:54 you'd asked me, can Wickoff do that? I
89:56 don't know. I mean, I knew Wickoff
89:57 before, but like, right, look what
89:59 Wickoff is doing. It's incredible. I
90:01 don't know. It's just treat people as
90:03 individuals. You're commanded to do
90:04 that. And I it's I do think it's harder
90:06 to do that online. Yes, I I agree. And I
90:09 also, you know, it was weird because, so
90:12 I, you know, it was an interesting
90:13 experience for me this last month or so
90:16 because I've never really, you know, I'm
90:18 I I think this has helped me in my
90:20 career is that I didn't like uh I didn't
90:23 blow up out of nowhere. Like I know
90:25 other people who have in comedy, I know
90:27 people who like, you know, just like
90:29 exploded, you know, they were at open
90:31 mics with me and then they got an
90:33 audition for Saturday Night Live and
90:34 then they got it and now they're world
90:36 famous. You know, you go literally from
90:37 being a complete unknown, not even an
90:39 established comedian, a newer comedian
90:42 who can't even work the clubs to being
90:44 like world famous. I've seen people have
90:46 that. How'd that work for Britney
90:47 Spears? Pretty bad. Well, especially bad
90:49 when you're young. That's the worst time
90:51 for it to happen. It happened to me,
90:52 actually. Right. Yeah. Well, that's
90:54 right. You You had that. Luckily, I was
90:56 humiliated along the way, so more
90:58 normal, but but that's the antidote for
91:00 it in a weird way, right? Because it's
91:02 all ego stuff. So the antidote for
91:04 blowing up your ego is destroying your
91:06 ego. It's which is is very painful, but
91:08 it's good. Like a hangover, the hangover
91:10 is actually getting you healthy. It
91:12 sucks, but the hangover is the cure. So
91:14 getting drunk was the problem. That's
91:15 why it's hard to become addicted to
91:16 cocaine. People seem to pull it off
91:18 anyway, but I never understood that. How
91:19 could you become addicted to this? You
91:20 feel horrible. I know it is. Well,
91:23 that's right. Sorry. Sorry to say. No,
91:25 but that's that's exactly right. But so
91:26 okay so for me I would it was always
91:29 like a like a logical progression like
91:31 one step more one step more my profile
91:33 kind of rose but this you know this
91:36 thing was the biggest thing I've ever
91:38 done in my career it was like the
91:39 biggest reaction to any show or any
91:42 debate that I've ever done cuz it was on
91:44 Rogan's podcast and he doesn't usually
91:46 do debates and it was the most
91:48 contentious issue of our day. So, it
91:50 became this big thing. And now I'm at a
91:52 place where, you know, I'm 42. I have a
91:56 great wife. I got two little kids that I
91:58 play with every day. I have a nice
92:00 house. My my life is like set up. Um I'm
92:03 I'm an adult. this isn't. So, but when
92:07 the kind of hate attack, this
92:09 coordinated attack, and everyone who's
92:12 attacking me just happens to have like,
92:15 you know, their name written in Hebrew
92:16 letters and a Jewish star, you know, in
92:18 their bio, and they're all saying the
92:20 most vicious stuff. I've been sitting
92:22 here and I'm like, "Wow, dude. If I were
92:25 25 Oh, yeah. and I wasn't Jewish. I
92:28 could very easily see my response to
92:31 this just being like, man,
92:34 screw these people, you know? And like
92:37 now, I'm not saying that would be
92:39 correct, but it's just like you feel
92:41 that because that's the impulse when
92:42 you're like attack, but like what you
92:44 just said, I think is the key point,
92:46 which is that like if believing in
92:48 individualism is like a grounding force.
92:51 It kind of inoculates you against
92:53 collectivist nonsense. And when I say
92:55 that, see, one of the problems here now
92:57 is that the left, which is what they do,
93:00 is they attack terms and concepts. And
93:03 so whenever you think about something,
93:05 you start thinking about the lefty
93:06 version of it. And it's like, no, no,
93:08 no, not that at all. So the left kind of
93:10 made individualism. They they kind of
93:13 mixed it together with like this like
93:16 self-actualization type thing like oh
93:19 all that really matters is like whatever
93:21 you're feeling and whatever you're
93:22 feeling is correct and it's correct
93:24 because you're feeling it and you're
93:26 feeling it because it's correct and
93:27 that's like that's like the devil.
93:29 That's like you do not want to go down
93:30 that path. You do not want to ever say
93:32 that like well if you feel something
93:34 inside of you then that must be true.
93:35 That's essentially what the trans thing
93:38 was all based on right was this view
93:39 that well if you feel it then it must be
93:41 true. like that's not where you want
93:43 that's that's the path to hell. You
93:45 don't want to go down that path. You
93:46 know, that's no that's it's not true
93:48 that because you feel something it
93:50 therefore should be actualized and
93:52 that's terrible. However, more old
93:55 school individualism like in the
93:57 classical liberal enlightenment
93:59 tradition is understanding that the
94:01 individual is a is a unit of analysis
94:04 that the individ individuals are how we
94:07 exist. We act as individuals. We suffer
94:10 as individuals. We collectivize as
94:13 individuals. We are born and die as
94:15 individuals. Exactly. And so and and
94:17 that collectivism, what collectivism
94:19 used to mean was the idea that the
94:21 individual ought to be subservient to
94:25 the larger group. Not that groups don't
94:27 exist. Not that we shouldn't come
94:29 together. Of course, we come we create
94:31 families. We create churches,
94:32 communities. All of these things are
94:34 wonderful. But when you do understand
94:36 like true individualism like on that
94:38 like that individuals ought to have
94:40 rights. Yes. Right. Things like that. It
94:43 does it shields you from a lot of this
94:46 nonsense. Well the question is does the
94:48 does the human being have a soul. Yes.
94:51 Exactly. Something that is distinct from
94:52 all others. There are billions of human
94:54 beings in this world. You are
94:57 fundamentally different not just in your
94:59 fingerprints and iris scan but in your
95:01 soul. This thing that we can't quite
95:02 define but that we know is real. Yes.
95:04 And that's why you have a right. That's
95:05 why you have right. That's the only
95:06 reason. That's the only reason. I I I
95:09 remember I was watching um as I
95:11 mentioned earlier, I was watching you
95:12 and Brett Weinstein. So I was just uh
95:15 yesterday was watching this and there
95:17 was one point where Brett said, and I
95:19 think he was completely right about this
95:21 and you guys kind of agreed, but he said
95:23 uh he goes, you know, the the claim that
95:25 Israel has a right to exist has always
95:27 seemed a little bit strange to me. And
95:29 he was like, I mean, they do exist, but
95:30 do they have a right to exist? Exactly.
95:32 country. Well, I think the point is
95:34 almost this. Countries don't have
95:36 rights. Individuals have rights. You're
95:39 using an individualist term and then
95:42 attempting to apply it to a collective
95:44 government. That's not how it works.
95:47 Every single individual who has Israeli
95:49 citizenship has a right to exist. Every
95:51 single individual who does not have
95:53 Israeli citizenship has a right to
95:54 exist. Every Palestinian, this is why
95:56 people make these arguments. There never
95:57 was a country called Palestine. Totally
96:00 irrelevant. has nothing to do with
96:02 anything. Doesn't matter if there was a
96:04 government or a country. It doesn't
96:06 matter where the lines on a map are
96:07 drawn. Now, again, this I'm not making a
96:10 lefty argument here. I'm not saying
96:12 therefore you can't have immigration
96:14 restrictions. Of course, you can cuz a
96:16 group of people can own a plot of land
96:18 and they get to decide who can come and
96:20 who can't come. That's right. But the
96:21 point is that if you're trying to apply
96:24 rights to collectives, you're going to
96:26 realize that it doesn't make sense. And
96:28 the same way they do this constantly
96:30 where they apply things like uh they'll
96:32 say does Israel have a right to defend
96:34 itself? You go no individuals have a
96:36 right to defend themselves and by the
96:38 way when I defend myself I don't have
96:41 the right to aggress upon other innocent
96:43 people who happen to be in the general
96:45 vicinity of the person who I want to
96:47 defend myself against. Exactly. That are
96:50 distinct but equal to mine. Exactly. And
96:53 that's really all it takes to kind of
96:54 cure you of a lot of this collectivist
96:56 nonsense. Yes. And there's there is
96:58 something about the form though. I do
96:59 think form matters in the same way
97:01 reading a book on on Kindle is a
97:02 different experience from reading one in
97:03 print. It just is. Wish it wasn't. Uh
97:07 there's something about the form of
97:09 social media that disagregates people
97:12 from their souls.
97:14 And I or at least that's my experience
97:16 of it. Like you can just get so pissed
97:18 off
97:19 um that you forget that every person
97:22 what was you were telling me this at
97:23 breakfast this morning. You're you're
97:25 telling me about the preamble to Daryl
97:27 Cooper's World War II series. Can you
97:30 say that? Will you say that? Yeah, he's
97:32 so he's uh he hasn't put the series out
97:34 yet. I think he's he's working on it. I
97:36 hope it's out soon. Um but so Daryl, as
97:39 he talked about on your show, is putting
97:40 together this big World War II series.
97:42 And when Daryl Cooper does this, we're
97:43 having him back this summer. I can't
97:44 wait. I can't wait. Just also just I'm
97:46 excited for the reaction. Uh, but I
97:49 actually think a lot of, you know, a lot
97:50 of people are probably gonna be
97:51 disappointed because he's not gonna give
97:53 them, you know, like it's weird going
97:56 full Nazi. Well, that's the thing. Of
97:57 course not. Of course. It's weirdly the
98:00 only people, by the way, it's so funny
98:02 because it's this symbiotic relationship
98:04 that you see all the time. It's like the
98:06 only people who want him to It's like
98:09 the the Nazis and the Zionists are the
98:11 ones who are like, "Please be a Nazi.
98:13 Please be a please so that we have
98:15 this." you know, everybody else is like,
98:17 I wonder if they're getting paid from
98:19 the same source. I I suspect some of
98:20 them are throwing that out there. In
98:22 fact, I don't suspect I know. I'm sure a
98:24 lot of them are. Yeah. Um, and that's,
98:26 you know, that's part of this new
98:28 landscape that, but so he does this, um,
98:30 he put out the prologue for the series
98:33 and he had this wonderful part in it.
98:35 Um, I hope I can kind of do it justice,
98:37 but it was so beautiful the way he said
98:39 it, but he was talking about like when
98:41 you start to think about um,
98:45 you know, the people in Germany in World
98:47 War II and how there there were little
98:50 three-year-old girls and 8-year-old boys
98:52 and there were women and there were all
98:53 the, you know, and if you start to kind
98:56 of humanize them there's or if you start
98:58 to dehumanize them as many were making
99:00 the attempt to do, he said, you you
99:03 might find yourself having two competing
99:05 voices. in your head. Like on one level
99:08 you go, "Well, of course there were
99:09 innocent women and innocent children and
99:11 of course these are people just like
99:13 anybody else." And then you might have
99:14 some other voice that goes, "Well, they
99:16 were Germans and it was World War II, so
99:19 what are you doing trying to humanize
99:20 anyone?" And he goes, "Okay, that second
99:22 voice is not you. That's not you. That
99:26 is a spirit outside of you acting on
99:28 you. And just so you know, it's the same
99:31 spirit that was acting on the Nazis when
99:33 they were talking about Jews. And that's
99:35 and dude, it's so funny for people
99:37 trying to demonize this guy. Like this
99:38 is who he actually is when he's talking
99:40 to his audience and he's got a message
99:42 to give them. This is the message he's
99:43 giving them. And I man, he's just so
99:45 right about that. And it's the same
99:47 thing as like when you see like some
99:49 hardcore Israel supporter and then some
99:51 hardcore like radical pro Palestinian
99:53 and like they're going like all the Jews
99:56 blah blah blah blah blah and then
99:57 they're going all the Arabs blah blah
99:59 blah blah blah. And you're like you're
100:00 the same person. both of you are the
100:03 same person. And I'm not trying to
100:04 completely equate it because obviously
100:06 the Palestinians have lost in this
100:08 conflict. They're the ones who have
100:09 been, you know, truly, you know, they've
100:11 been over in a way that the
100:13 Israelis haven't. But anytime that
100:16 you're like dehumanizing an entire group
100:18 of people, setting the stage to then
100:20 justify some type of brutal aggression
100:23 that could not be justified without
100:25 dehumanizing them first. You are
100:28 participating in the same exercise that
100:32 is is the reason throughout all of human
100:35 history that we've had genocides and
100:37 wars and ethnic cleansing campaigns and
100:40 just horrible atrocities. Don't do that.
100:43 Whatever you do, if you ever find
100:45 yourself doing that, don't do it. We're
100:47 not allowed to do that. Yeah. I mean, we
100:49 play you play with fire when you do
100:50 that. And I and I've stayed silent a lot
100:54 as I've seen it happen. And I feel shame
100:56 thinking back on it when Osama bin
100:58 Laden's wife was shot. I remember
101:01 thinking, okay, she got shot married to
101:03 Osama bin Laden. That's pretty risky
101:05 proposition being married to Osama bin
101:06 Laden and living in Pakistan. Got it. So
101:09 I guess, you know, there are risks and
101:10 she knew what they were. On the other
101:12 hand, I'm not cheering an unarmed woman
101:14 getting shot to death under any
101:15 circumstances. And I don't I don't want
101:17 anyone in my country doing that either
101:18 because I love my country and I love the
101:19 people who live here and they're my my
101:22 countrymen. And um and I think it's bad
101:25 to just stay silent. Okay. But don't
101:27 anybody who encourages you to take
101:29 pleasure at the death of another person
101:32 is, you know, acting on behalf of forces
101:34 that we should be rejecting. Yeah. You
101:36 know, I said this uh I don't care who it
101:37 is. I I was on Lex Freriedman's uh
101:41 podcast um pretty recently. That guy's a
101:43 good interviewer. Actually, he's great.
101:44 He's a great interview. Everyone makes
101:45 fun of Lex Freedman. I made fun of Lex
101:47 Freedman probably or I heard other
101:48 people do it. I didn't say anything. And
101:49 then I was interviewed by Lex Freedman.
101:51 I was like, "This guy's weirdly good at
101:53 this." Really good. It's easy for people
101:55 to look at it and think they could do
101:57 it, too. It's a skill to interview
101:59 somebody. And he is. Look what he gets.
102:01 He gets Did he get good? I haven't seen
102:03 it. Did he get good stuff? Oh, it was
102:05 great. And he was, you know, he was
102:06 asking me like he started really getting
102:08 into the detail of like what I believe a
102:10 just war is and what an immoral war is
102:12 and why is that? And the example I used,
102:14 which I think like I I I know you
102:16 because I've heard you talk about this
102:17 stuff too. think you'll agree with me,
102:19 but I was like, "Okay, let's take World
102:21 War II and let's say that like not only
102:24 is the official narrative right, let's
102:26 let's tweak some things here. It's so
102:28 much more right than you know, the Nazis
102:30 are, if it's possible, they're even
102:32 worse than the real Nazis were. And if
102:34 it's possible, they actually were going
102:36 to take over the world." And actually,
102:37 we would all be speaking German. Like,
102:39 let's say not only were they going to
102:40 take over England, they were going to
102:42 cross the Atlantic and come take over
102:43 North America also. and the entire world
102:46 would have fallen into Nazi
102:49 totalitarianism had they won the war.
102:51 And let's say in order to stop the
102:53 Nazis, we had a way where we could do it
102:55 where no innocent civilians were killed
102:58 except one. You know, we could we could
103:00 literally just we could take out the
103:02 Nazis, save the entire world from
103:03 totalitarianism. By the way, in this
103:05 model, there's no Joseph Stalin. Joseph
103:07 Stalin's a great guy and the the Soviets
103:09 are a free country. There's no moral
103:11 questions about who we're working with.
103:13 Just all of that. All we had to do was
103:15 we could take out the Nazis by dropping
103:17 this one super bomb. Um but one
103:19 six-year-old girl would be killed. Okay,
103:22 this is so I've made it the most
103:24 clear-cut war in human history. Um in
103:27 that scenario, I guess you'd go, look,
103:29 we have to do this. We have no choice
103:32 other the whole world will fall to
103:34 totalitarianism or the whole world can
103:36 be saved and one six-year-old girl is
103:38 going to get killed. Okay, I can
103:41 understand being like, we're making an
103:42 impossible decision. and we have to do
103:43 this. Every year on the anniversary of
103:46 that war, we should all like weep to
103:48 ourselves. We should all feel horrible
103:50 that we had to do that cuz it's a
103:52 six-year-old girl got killed. Like I
103:54 have a six-year-old girl. This is the
103:56 most This is the most horrible thing in
103:58 the world that you would ever like kill
104:00 a six-year-old girl. I mean, my god, I
104:02 would set the whole world on fire to
104:04 stop someone from doing anything to my
104:06 little girl. And like so if that were in
104:08 this very clear-cut scenario, not the
104:10 complexity of real history in this
104:12 scenario that I'm laying out, we should
104:14 still all be nothing but pity and sorrow
104:16 that it ever came to that and we should
104:18 rack our brains every day thinking, was
104:20 there any alternative to that? Was there
104:22 any way that we could have done that
104:23 without this little girl getting killed?
104:25 And like people could say that's kind of
104:26 like pie in the sky or hippish-ish or
104:28 whatever. But at the very least, dude,
104:31 when you're talking about like
104:32 inflicting this level of human suffering
104:35 on people, like the the onus is always
104:37 on the people who are advocating for it
104:40 to absolutely prove beyond the shadow of
104:42 a doubt that there's no other option
104:44 that we've exhausted everything else we
104:46 could do. It has to be this. And if you
104:48 come to the conclusion it has to be
104:50 this, you should still be really sad and
104:53 somber about it. this spiking the
104:55 football stuff, having a Bob Hope
104:57 special after a war, the stuff that
104:59 America got involved in after the Second
105:01 World War that became like kind of like
105:03 this business of war. This this we're
105:06 spiking the football. It's just like
105:08 it's disgusting. And then you tell me
105:10 about how some other society is a death
105:12 cult. Like let's examine our own. Well,
105:15 it is disgusting. And I think um you
105:18 don't have to know the right answer
105:20 going forward to know what the wrong
105:21 answer is, right? And it's just again
105:24 you want to treat you want to approach
105:26 life and state craft and bureaucracy and
105:30 everything in your life with humility.
105:31 Like I don't always know the outcome.
105:34 Not God. I have limited power. I think I
105:37 know that murdering a six-year-old girl
105:39 will bring world peace, but what if it
105:40 doesn't? Right. Right. Or whatever. I
105:43 think dropping an atomic bomb on the off
105:45 chance doesn't work out chance. I think
105:48 you know dropping the atom bomb will
105:49 stop an invasion of Japan. Okay. I think
105:51 dimming the sun will stop global
105:53 warming. But maybe I'm wrong, you know?
105:55 Maybe I'm wrong because I'm a person and
105:57 it's when people stop remembering the
106:01 limits to their own wisdom and power
106:02 that things like that you get genocides
106:05 and stuff. Well, also again, like I said
106:06 before, cuz this is always just my it's
106:08 the weird way my neurotic brain works or
106:10 whatever, but I just like can't like I
106:13 have this consistency obsession or
106:15 whatever, but you know, I was listening
106:16 to your uh your show with Matt Walsh uh
106:19 the other day and I I kind of I did
106:21 appreciate some of the things he said
106:23 about me and the debate with Douglas. It
106:25 was for a Daily Wire employee. I think
106:26 that's about as nice. That's about as
106:28 good a reaction as I'm I'm going to get.
106:30 that he was like at one point saying
106:32 that he was like, "Well, you know, so
106:34 then the real important the good point
106:37 that he said that Douglas Murray made
106:39 was when he asked me, um, well then how
106:42 do you get rid of Hamas?" Like what's
106:45 your plan? So number one, it's not a
106:47 point, it's a question. But then Matt
106:50 Walsh was saying like, "Well, look, I
106:52 can understand you saying you're against
106:53 what Israel is doing, but then what
106:55 should they do to get rid of Hamas?" And
106:58 it it's just interesting to me to see
107:00 any conservative going, "Wait a minute.
107:03 So you're
107:04 against these babies being killed." And
107:07 it's like, "Yes, yes. Let's call this, I
107:10 don't know, let me think of a term for
107:11 it. The pro-life position. Let's call it
107:13 that. Remember, remember the
107:16 foundational principle that you've been
107:18 talking about for your entire career?"
107:20 But wait, hold on. So, first of all,
107:22 before which, by the way, there are lots
107:23 of other ways to deal with Hamas,
107:25 obviously. But no, actually I don't have
107:28 to solve that problem before I can
107:30 object to killing innocent children,
107:34 right? Like no, it is not incumbent on
107:37 the pro-life person to work out a plan
107:40 for like the uh um the adoption or the
107:42 college or the No, actually no. I'm
107:45 allowed for my starting point to be you
107:48 can't murder babies, right? I mean, come
107:52 on. Yes. Like what do we And you know
107:53 the other thing which I did want to say
107:55 is that I do think um and look by the
107:58 way I I as I've saying we're both here
108:00 kind of coming out against um the
108:03 excesses on both sides. I'm against
108:04 racial collectivism. I'm against
108:06 collective guilt. Um against collective
108:09 judgment even yes collective punishment
108:11 for sure. Um but so like I'm not saying
108:14 you don't have to like you should you
108:16 shouldn't hate Jews and you don't even
108:18 have to hate Israelis. I think you
108:20 shouldn't hate Israel. Oh, there's lots
108:22 of great people there. They're awesome.
108:24 There's lots of really really great
108:25 people there. Um and um and their
108:27 government's just done a lot of messed
108:28 up stuff, but like so is ours and so
108:30 have lots of governments around the
108:31 world. Probably all of them. Um probably
108:33 a direct correlation to how much power
108:35 they have and how much evil stuff they
108:36 can do. Exactly. Exactly. You know, I do
108:39 think it's a little bit of a copout for
108:41 some people who I like very much. You
108:43 know, like I I like Matt Walsh. I've
108:45 never met him, but I like I think his
108:46 documentaries are great. I think he's
108:47 been an important voice in the national
108:49 conversation. like a very important
108:51 voice. Um, I like Tim P very much. I've
108:53 done his shows lots of times. I've met
108:55 him lots of times. I think he's a great
108:56 guy. Um, but there are these guys who
108:59 will basically say like, I'm a
109:01 non-interventionist. I only care about
109:03 America. I don't care about these other
109:05 so I don't care. I don't have an opinion
109:07 on it. And it just seems to me like
109:09 that's a copout. It's kind of like in
109:11 2006, you don't have an opinion on Iraq.
109:14 I don't care about Iraq. I only care
109:15 about America. It's like, well, we're in
109:17 Iraq right now. Well, I agree with that.
109:19 That's right. And that's why I have felt
109:21 from the beginning kind of like
109:23 shanghide into this. I mean, I don't
109:25 care on the level that I just want to
109:26 focus on my own country, but if we're
109:29 deeply involved in it, then I have an
109:31 obligation to care if it's my job to pay
109:33 attention to what our country is doing,
109:34 which it is. So, right. Well, that's
109:36 Listen, I have no argument to anybody
109:38 who goes, I'm just not going to pay
109:39 attention to politics. My my best friend
109:42 in the world is Lewis J. Gomez, who came
109:45 on your show and you he's the best. And
109:47 literally, and this is he is being
109:48 completely sincere when you asked him on
109:50 your show, you go like, "So, what are
109:52 your politics?" And he goes, "Politics
109:53 is gay." And that's literally his only
109:55 answer. And I have in all of my years,
109:58 I'm literally I'm his best friends. I
109:59 don't have a counter to that. I go,
110:01 "That is a pretty good point. I'm
110:03 married to a woman like that." Yes.
110:04 Yeah. Me, too. You know, and like, so
110:06 it's like I have no argument against
110:07 that. If you but if you're in this world
110:10 where we're talking about these things
110:12 then you you don't get to just say well
110:16 look taking this opinion which is the
110:18 obvious logical conclusion of my stated
110:21 principles but if I take them to their
110:23 conclusion that will cause me grief.
110:27 Therefore I'm going to say I don't
110:29 really care about that. Because look
110:30 here's the thing. If you don't if you do
110:32 care about being America first and you
110:33 care about America not getting into
110:35 another stupid catastrophic war in the
110:37 Middle
110:38 East, well, who's pushing us in that
110:40 direction? And this is not a conspiracy
110:42 theory. This is like totally out in the
110:44 open, right? I mean, the longest serving
110:46 prime minister in Israeli history is
110:48 John M uh Benjamin Netanyahu. Okay?
110:51 Right? Benjamin Netanyahu came to the US
110:55 Congress in 2002 and testified as a
110:58 regional expert that we should go
111:00 overthrow Saddam Hussein in Iraq because
111:02 democracy will sweep the region. He then
111:04 also said in front of a congressional
111:06 testimony that we should overthrow
111:08 Mammar Gaddafi in Libya and that we
111:10 should overthrow the Mullers in Iran.
111:11 Okay. He's been advocating, he's been
111:13 John McCain, he's been Dick Cheney this
111:16 whole time advocating that we fight this
111:18 next war and this next war and this next
111:19 war. They're right now. What was it? uh
111:21 uh 3 4 weeks ago, they drew up war
111:23 plans, including us, to go to war with
111:26 Iran. It's only because Donald Trump,
111:29 who seems to be willing to help them
111:30 ethnically cleanse the Gaza Strip, but
111:32 said, "That's a bridge too far for me.
111:34 I'm not going to war here." And so,
111:36 thank God, now we're in negotiations
111:38 with the Iranians. But if you know this,
111:40 then like for you to be a
111:42 non-interventionist America first, it
111:44 has to at least come with and hey, we
111:46 should cut Israel off and we should not
111:47 listen to Benjamin Netanyahu. Like I'm
111:49 sorry that's just totally reasonable or
111:51 Kirst or any of them. That's right. So
111:54 okay, just take the position which is
111:56 the obvious one. We should stop funding
111:59 what Israel is doing. We should stop
112:00 propping them up. It's been quite a
112:02 while. The country was created in 1948.
112:05 It is 2025. You can either go at this
112:08 alone or you can't. Come on. And those
112:11 are fair terms by the way. I mean those
112:12 are the terms that the rest of us live
112:14 our lives on. Yeah. you know, I mean,
112:16 you you make budget decisions in your
112:17 home on the basis of what you can
112:18 afford. Yeah. And there's some things
112:20 you don't do, you know. Um, no, all of
112:23 us mere mortals have those constrictions
112:25 on our behavior. Like they're the things
112:27 I want to do and they're the things that
112:28 I think I'm capable of doing. Yeah. Big
112:30 difference. And if I was sitting here
112:32 and giving like these bravado, you know,
112:35 infused speeches about all of the things
112:38 that I can do, but really it relied on
112:40 me borrowing the money from you in order
112:42 to do it. You'd be like, "Hey, maybe
112:43 stop giving this speech. Maybe maybe
112:46 Benjamin Netanyahu should stop going to
112:47 the UN and going, there's nowhere that
112:49 Israel can't touch." Actually, there's
112:52 lots of places Israel can't touch. I
112:54 know. There's nowhere the US can't
112:55 touch. I know. I just think it's it's
112:58 getting too out in the open. And and I
113:00 do I mean, I guess I fret too much in
113:02 general, but I I do worry now that it's
113:04 like super obvious Yeah. what's going on
113:07 that things will just devolve into like
113:10 somewhere very ugly. Well, that's why if
113:13 you have any sense about you and you
113:16 don't want to see things devolve into
113:17 something ugly, that's why you want to
113:19 make sure we don't get into another war
113:21 right now. Totally agree. It's
113:24 unbelievable. It's It's so It's
113:26 remarkable. I I'll tell you this, right?
113:28 And I I'm somebody who
113:30 has really, you know, been focused on
113:34 this stuff for a long time. Um, you
113:36 know, I mean, I host I do a show four
113:37 days a week and I I'm always reading
113:40 about this stuff and I've done all the
113:41 background reading. I mean, I know a lot
113:42 about like the neoconservatives and what
113:45 motivates them, what their worldview
113:47 was. I will tell you the first thing
113:49 that really surprised me and I was I was
113:51 genuinely and I hate the
113:52 neoconservatives like I'm not it's not
113:54 that I don't understand how evil what
113:57 they believe is. I was really surprised
113:59 that the Ukraine
114:01 thing, the Nazis in Ukraine didn't mess
114:05 with them at all. I was shocked. I was
114:06 really surpris you know, I know why they
114:08 support all the wars they have
114:10 supported. I thought that for the
114:12 neoconservatives, real deal, not even
114:15 neo-Nazis, Nazis like the grandsons of,
114:20 you know, the Nazis who perpetrated the
114:22 Holocaust in Ukraine, proudly wearing
114:24 swastikas uh tattoos and waving flags. I
114:27 mean like they threw their support
114:29 behind the Azovv battalion. I this was
114:33 very str like this was a line to me I
114:34 was like oh wow they'll really go that
114:36 far. But I'll tell you I am blown away
114:41 by the fact that anybody who is out
114:43 there shrieking about the rise in
114:46 anti-semitism is not wise enough to go
114:49 we cannot fight a war with Iran right
114:52 now. Because if we get into a war right
114:54 now that's clearly on Israel's behalf
114:57 after 25 years of terror wars which were
115:00 pretty clearly at least partially on you
115:02 know I'm not I'm not going to go quite
115:04 as far as like Jeffrey Sachs although I
115:06 get you know he's an expert and I'm not
115:07 so I guess he's right and I'm not but
115:10 you know I wouldn't quite say that you
115:12 know we outsourced our foreign policy to
115:14 Israel like I you know there's a lot of
115:16 truth to that statement. Was it was it
115:18 Mir Shimemer or Saxs who said I view
115:20 Benjamin Netanyahu as the worst US
115:22 president of the 21st century?
115:25 It's pretty hilarious, but and there's
115:27 there's a lot of truth to that, but it's
115:28 not like 100% true. It's like, okay, but
115:31 look, it's obviously, as I just said,
115:34 Israel has been using its considerable
115:36 influence to convince us to go to war in
115:39 Iraq and in Libya, in Syria, in and all
115:42 of these places. I think Yemen was more
115:44 for the Saudis. Afghanistan was our own
115:46 thing. that those wars particularly
115:47 Israel was really on board with. And if
115:51 we were to go get into a war with Iran
115:52 right now, which will be a much bigger
115:54 disaster than any of the previous terror
115:56 wars, there's there's really no argument
115:58 about that. It's Iran is just not a
116:00 pushover like uh these other countries
116:02 at all. Yeah, that's right. They can
116:03 take out a lot of our guys and then and
116:05 then what do we do after that? And well,
116:07 they could also destroy Israel with
116:08 conventional weapons. Yeah, there's
116:10 there's a lot that they can do. Um, but
116:12 if we actually go to this war on behalf
116:15 of Israel, I mean, what do you think
116:17 that does to the level of anti-semitism?
116:20 Now, by the way, I'm not that's not the
116:21 number one reason not to do it. That's
116:23 like the number six reason not to do it.
116:25 But for these people who are so
116:26 concerned, they're so concerned about
116:27 the existential threat to Israel. Well,
116:30 here's the thing, right? Hamas, while
116:32 they did pull off October 7th, which was
116:34 by far the biggest attack Hamas has ever
116:36 pulled off, um Hamas was never an
116:38 existential threat to Israel. But this
116:42 actually is I agree what they're doing
116:44 right now in some sick self-fulfilling,
116:47 you know, uh, prophecy. This actually is
116:49 creating like an existential threat to
116:51 them. I completely agree. I if I live
116:53 there,
116:54 um, and I think enough of Jerusalem that
116:57 I would like to live in Jerusalem. I
116:58 think it's the most incredible city in
117:00 the world. I I truly love it. But I
117:02 would leave because I think I think
117:04 they're um, and I said this to an
117:05 Israeli friend of mine recently, like
117:07 I'm a little bit concerned. Not that
117:08 it's my job to be concerned for your
117:10 country. Lots of other people have that
117:11 taken care of, but just as a bystander,
117:13 it's like, whoa, this is not good. Yeah.
117:16 And um I didn't, you know, he had no
117:19 sense of what I was talking about, but I
117:21 uh Yeah. No, I think the one area where
117:24 I agree with Mark Leavin um is that
117:26 Israel is really in danger. And I think
117:28 it's people like Mark Levin who are
117:30 putting Israel in danger. My view. Yeah,
117:32 I think I think that's maybe I'm wrong,
117:33 but No, I think that's right. I think
117:35 just like I was saying at Douglas
117:36 Murray, it's actually like, "No, you're
117:38 creating fertile ground for
117:39 anti-semitism by telling me I'm not
117:41 allowed to criticize a guy with a Jewish
117:42 last name in the same sense that you
117:44 claim some Jewish ancest." But that's so
117:47 low. It's so low to debate like that.
117:52 You're the famous debater. Yeah. And
117:54 like in an op-ed after you lose a debate
117:57 or not even lose after you refuse to
117:59 debate and kind of be clown yourself and
118:02 then you're writing an op-ed and you
118:03 don't take on one argument I made but
118:05 you do attack whether I'm really Jewish
118:08 as the by the way as he'll criticize the
118:10 just asking questions people. Well what
118:13 the hell is that? What the hell is
118:14 that's me by the way. That's who they're
118:16 talking about. Right. I know. I know.
118:17 It's all it's all it's so funny. The
118:19 first time I heard that I was like,
118:20 "Wait, are you actually mad that I asked
118:23 a question? Isn't anyone who's tries
118:25 who's trying to shut down questions,
118:26 isn't that person by definition on the
118:28 wrong side?" Yeah. Well, you know what's
118:30 funny? Like, what world are we living
118:32 in? Well, I've lived too long. I should
118:34 have died 10 years ago. Well, you know
118:36 what's so funny about it, too, is that
118:38 there's because there's all these
118:39 different techniques for control, and
118:42 one of them is just framing. like how
118:45 you frame a conversation really like
118:48 with the Israel thing it's obvious right
118:49 like look I mean however you feel about
118:51 the conflict the fact is that Israel has
118:53 occupied Palestine since 1967 you know
118:56 okay I know the no we disengaged in 2005
118:59 no you didn't but like whatever I'm not
119:01 even like I've had this debate enough
119:02 times I'm just saying this is the fact
119:03 is that Israel's occupied Palestine
119:05 since 1967 that's the fact and then the
119:07 conversation they go does Israel have a
119:09 right to defend itself and you're like
119:11 well that's a hell of a way to start you
119:12 know like you're the ones doing the
119:14 occupying and you want to start every
119:16 debate with whether you have a right to
119:18 defend yourself. Okay. But with all
119:20 these things there's kind of you know
119:21 like this is what was interesting to me
119:23 about the the conversation with you and
119:24 Brett Weinstein about the you know about
119:27 God versus atheism and all this stuff is
119:29 that like so people it's very easy to
119:32 have the framing of going like oh you're
119:35 telling me you believe there's an
119:36 invisible man up in the sky who created
119:38 all things. That's pretty goofy right?
119:40 It's like yeah if you just frame it like
119:42 that sure it's pretty goofy. I'm sorry.
119:44 What's your belief? You believe
119:45 everything used to fit on the top of a
119:47 pin and then it exploded into
119:49 everything. Everything came from nothing
119:51 and then exploded into This is just as
119:53 ridiculous as anything anyone's ever
119:55 believed. So like as soon as you look at
119:57 both sides and apply the same standard
119:58 to both and you know there's been a one
120:00 thing is a very interesting dynamic to
120:02 me. I've seen this a lot when people
120:04 will try to attack you where what
120:06 they'll do is they'll pull like kind of
120:08 the five things you've said that seem
120:12 like almost the goofiest of all the
120:14 things. Well, he said this thing about
120:16 like a demon attacking him. Okay, he
120:17 said this thing about you know like
120:19 Right. Right. But sorry, I didn't want
120:21 to. No, but look but look even Yes. in
120:24 itself but like okay that sounds like an
120:26 outlandish claim like I'm not but then
120:29 it's almost like they're trying to
120:30 ignore the totality. I see this a lot
120:32 with Bobby Kennedy. This has been one of
120:34 the most interesting things about Bobby
120:35 is that the people who attack him, they
120:38 pick on the five, you know, goofiest
120:41 things they can find that they think he
120:43 said, you know, he blamed the wifi for
120:45 this or he said something about whatever
120:48 the COVID targeting certain genetics and
120:50 not other genetics. And it's like, look,
120:53 even if I grant you there are these five
120:55 claims, which I don't know if I, you
120:56 know, Bobby said some things that I'm
120:57 like, I don't know if he's right about
120:59 that or not. Right? It seems kind but
121:01 the but they're trying to remove the
121:02 central thing that he said and the
121:05 central this is Trump in a nutshell too.
121:07 Right. The central thing that Bobby
121:09 Kennedy said is that we spend more money
121:11 than any other country on healthcare and
121:12 we're the sickest. Exactly. Now until
121:15 you can take on that you're never going
121:17 to win by just trying to knock out these
121:19 other good because at least he's talking
121:20 about the major thing. And by the way
121:22 not only did he say that none of you
121:23 have ever mentioned that. I've watched
121:26 every presidential campaign. It's never
121:28 once come up. Well, and in fact,
121:29 everything they do mention is a way to
121:31 avoid mentioning it. Exactly. But we had
121:33 a whole we had a whole debate in this
121:35 country about health insurance and this
121:38 never came up. We had the Obamacare
121:40 debate and like and no one even ever
121:41 mentioned I didn't know it until Bobby
121:43 came on my show. Yeah. Me neither. He
121:46 was banned. Yeah. No, but I have to say
121:48 the thing that I have
121:50 learned really above all other things is
121:53 the only way to assess a claim is on the
121:56 basis of whether or not it's true.
121:57 Right. Right. not on whether or not I
121:59 want to hear it, on whether or not I've
122:01 thought of it before, whether or not I'm
122:02 shocked by the fact that you asked the
122:04 question. The only thing that matters
122:06 is, is it true? Now, can I know? Most of
122:08 the time, no, I can't know. But I want
122:11 my orientation, the way I approach each
122:13 question to be the same every single
122:15 time, which is, is that true? And the
122:17 second I stop caring about whether it's
122:19 true, then I'm acting on behalf of evil.
122:21 Right. It's that simple. Right. Right.
122:23 Yeah. No, I I completely So when Bobby
122:25 Kennedy's like, "Oh, CO's, you know,
122:27 targeted on the basis of genes." I was
122:28 like, "Really? Is that true?" Yeah.
122:31 Well, I kind of felt I felt the same
122:33 way. Um, and I and I think particularly
122:35 what and I think it's very similar to
122:37 talking about the 9/11 truth or stuff
122:39 with Jesse Ventur. It's like what what
122:41 ends up happening is that after you're
122:43 kind of redpilled about so much, yes,
122:46 the claims don't seem quite as
122:47 outlandish.
122:49 That's not saying that they're right,
122:51 you know, like and I've I, you know,
122:52 with with the 9/11 conspiracy stuff,
122:54 I've never been like completely sold. I
122:57 think there are a lot of people who jump
122:59 to conclusions that are and like
123:01 actually the evidence isn't nearly as
123:03 strong as you think it is. You're kind
123:04 of you're doing what everyone does where
123:06 you start with a conclusion and then you
123:07 work your way backward from there. And
123:09 there's a lot of that, but at the same
123:11 time, it's like the people who go,
123:13 "Well, our government would never."
123:14 You're like, "No, that doesn't work
123:16 anymore, dude. Sorry." So yeah, they
123:18 totally would. They actually totally
123:20 would. I'm not even saying they did in
123:21 this case, but they totally would. Or
123:23 it's so painful to reexamine the
123:25 worldview I've built on what might be a
123:27 fake assumption that I'm not going to do
123:29 it. I'm going to yell at you instead for
123:30 challenging that worldview. Like that
123:31 doesn't work either because it's already
123:33 happened. I've You can only lose your
123:34 virginity once. Right. Right. And once
123:37 you realize that the Warren Commission
123:38 really was a cover up. I mean, it just
123:41 was. And on the base of evidence, I've
123:43 concluded that. Then it's like, okay, if
123:45 if the US government will hide details
123:48 about the murder of a democratically
123:50 elected US president, then there's
123:51 really nothing Yeah. that they wouldn't
123:53 do, right? And then if you and then the
123:54 Nixon one is a big onetwo punch, you
123:57 know, because you realize that like, oh,
123:59 the guy who became the villain, you
124:02 know, like the guy who was like supposed
124:04 to be remembered as the most corrupt
124:06 president was actually the most popular
124:08 president who was totally set up was
124:11 was, you know, and you're like, okay,
124:12 well then we're just not living in the
124:13 country that So I came to that
124:15 independently having known a lot of
124:17 those people. I know Bob Woodward
124:19 personally and I I lived in that world
124:22 for my whole life. And um Nixon had the
124:26 highest popular vote percentage of any
124:29 president in American history. I didn't
124:31 in 72. I just didn't even know that. And
124:33 when I found out that Bob Woodward was a
124:35 naval intelligence officer detailed to
124:37 the Nixon White House and then the next
124:39 year gets the biggest story in
124:40 journalism history handed to him. And
124:42 how old was he? 30 28 something like
124:45 that. That happens a lot. That's totally
124:47 That's totally normal, right? And throw
124:50 was the deputy director of the FBI and
124:52 the guy they installed as president was
124:53 on the warrant commission. Yeah.
124:56 Yeah. I never liked Gerald Ford because
124:58 of the withdrawal from Saigon on April
125:02 30th, 1975. I just thought that was like
125:04 everything about that was so ugly. But
125:07 whatever. Yes, I agree. So, it's not
125:09 enough to say I'm not allowed to think
125:11 something, right? or that or or once you
125:14 but once you recognize those things it's
125:16 just impossible.
125:19 It's impossible to reconstruct the image
125:21 of America that you once had. You're
125:23 like, "Oh, that's not at all what and
125:25 that doesn't make you an anti-American
125:27 bigot any more than saying like
125:29 criticizing a government does not make
125:31 you a bad person." No, this is
125:34 it's this is um what's it? It's
125:36 Frederick Bastiot stuff. Like this was
125:38 already figured out a long time ago. uh
125:41 society and the government are not
125:43 interchangeable things. They are
125:44 different. You know, criticizing Joe
125:46 Biden is not criticizing America. I'm
125:49 not criticizing the hills and the lakes.
125:51 I'm criticizing this one scenile
125:53 criminal or my neighbors or my
125:55 relatives, people I love. There's so
125:57 many of them. So, last last question.
125:59 You made reference to uh the Brett
126:02 Weinstein conversation we had last week
126:04 about um creationism versus Darwinism,
126:07 etc., etc., the existence of God. Do you
126:09 find in your life, this is a quiz I give
126:11 a lot of people, more people you know
126:13 personally talking about God than you
126:16 did say 10 years ago? Yes. Um and I am
126:19 that person. I mean I was an atheist 10
126:21 years ago. What happened? I had my
126:23 daughter. Yeah. Um that's you know is I
126:25 found God the day my wife delivered our
126:28 first uh child and um which is a fairly
126:31 common experience. Uh I know other
126:34 people who have had the same thing were
126:35 atheists until that moment. And um what
126:38 what can what changed in you? So all
126:41 right so it was uh basically so I met my
126:45 so you know it's fairly normal story but
126:47 I I met my wife and we got engaged and
126:50 then um we got married. Um so my wife's
126:53 like the most amazing chick. She's just
126:55 great. And I know this is it's always a
126:57 thing to say it's like my wife's better
126:59 than your wife type thing but everybody
127:00 who knows my wife and I don't mean you.
127:02 I've never met your wife but but she is
127:05 better. And just kidding. Uh, no. I
127:07 don't I don't hear people compliment
127:08 their spouses enough, actually. I don't
127:11 think everyone always says that. I wish
127:12 people that more often. Well, I do. You
127:15 know, it's not me. She's really just the
127:16 best. Everyone who knows her would
127:18 agree. I mean, like, it's just like
127:19 she's like the most amazing woman. She's
127:21 just gorgeous and she's really super
127:23 smart and she's really sweet and kind.
127:26 Um, and she's just like she she puts
127:28 everyone above herself. She's like I I
127:31 really hit the lottery with her. And I
127:33 was never, you know, I was like
127:35 habitually single. I was never a
127:37 relationship guy and I never really
127:39 wanted to get married. I kind of always
127:41 had this view of like, you know, women
127:42 are trying to change you or trying to
127:44 control you. Every girl that I ever
127:46 dated always wanted a relationship and
127:48 then they always wanted me to not do
127:50 this or not do that. And my wife was
127:52 just she just had my back. She just
127:54 always like wanted to make my life
127:56 better and she did. And I just I fell in
127:59 love with her and I I was like I'm going
128:01 to spend the rest of my life with this
128:02 woman. And so then we uh when she got
128:05 pregnant, I was just very excited. It
128:08 was like, you know, we just got married.
128:09 I got a a baby on the way. Um I was just
128:12 like, "This is going to be this is the
128:13 best. Like I'm really excited to to do
128:16 this." And um and I was right. It was
128:17 the best thing I've ever done. And so
128:20 the uh the day that uh was um well, she
128:23 was over her due date. So then they they
128:26 scheduled to come in to induce pregnancy
128:28 cuz they don't let you go too long these
128:30 days. Um which I guess is maybe they're
128:32 right about that. I don't know. But
128:33 anyway, so we go to the hospital. They
128:34 get the ptocin out. Yes, that's right.
128:36 So, we're at uh Lennox Hill Hospital in
128:38 the Upper East Side of Manhattan. And
128:42 um by the way, I should I should add
128:44 just leading into the story over the I
128:46 had been like a militant atheist when I
128:48 was younger. I had started to open up my
128:50 mind a little bit to being like I I was
128:52 seeing some of the holes in the atheist
128:53 arguments, but I still was not like a
128:55 believer in God. And so, we were at
128:58 Lennox Lennox Hill Hospital, and this is
129:00 this was the first one. This is how it
129:01 started was um the uh the
129:04 anesthesiologist came in to give my wife
129:06 an epidural and at Lennox Hill or at
129:10 least this guy they asked me to leave
129:12 the room. Um they said they ask the
129:14 fathers to leave the room when they do
129:16 it, you know, cuz they're they're
129:17 putting a spinal thing in and they have
129:19 to be very very precise to see it.
129:21 Right. So like and and they don't want I
129:23 guess they don't want you there to react
129:24 cuz then she might react and so they
129:26 don't want to so I go at and she can't
129:28 see what's happening. Right. she can't
129:30 see, but she could see you seeing. And
129:31 so they want people with a straight
129:33 poker face who have seen this a lot of
129:34 times and are not watching it happen to
129:35 their wife and baby, you know, so it's a
129:37 reasonable ask. But so I go I go out and
129:40 I'm in the the hallway in the maternity
129:43 ward at Lennox Hill Hospital and I'm
129:45 just and it just hit me. It was like for
129:47 the first time I guess I had not really
129:49 thought about this. I was just so
129:51 excited to get my family started. But
129:53 for the first time, it hit me that like
129:55 something could go
129:56 wrong and that I could leave here alone,
130:00 you know, like something could go wrong
130:01 that I could lose the baby. I could lose
130:03 my wife and it's totally out of my
130:04 control. And like as this started
130:06 hitting me, I started like really
130:08 getting emotional. And um it's like I'm
130:10 out there and I'm like I'm crying in the
130:12 hallway of this maternity ward and
130:15 immediately I just started talking to
130:17 God. Um, and I just started uh not just
130:20 talking to God, but like negotiating
130:22 with God. And I was just like, you know,
130:24 like like, dear Lord, if you if you make
130:27 sure that they're okay, I'm going to do
130:30 like I'm going to be the best husband
130:32 and the best father and I will do this
130:33 and you know, like all the different
130:34 things in your life. Have you ever
130:36 prayed before? No. Never once in my
130:37 life. Um, and it all, you know, like all
130:39 the things that you know you're supposed
130:41 to be doing that you're not doing that
130:42 well, you know, like I was like, "Okay,
130:43 I'll clean this up. You know, I'll call
130:45 my mom more often. I'll do this thing.
130:47 I'll do." And so anyway, so I just
130:48 started like praying to God and not just
130:50 praying but like negotiating. So anyway,
130:52 everything was fine with that. But my my
130:54 wife, this was the first of many times
130:56 she had a very there were a bunch of
130:57 complications in the pregnancy. Everyone
130:59 came out okay, thank God. Um but so I
131:02 ended up talking to God a lot that day
131:05 and then just like as the days went on,
131:08 it's so interesting. It's organic
131:10 lifetime of not believing and then yeah
131:12 just start and so this is almost like
131:14 what intellectually you know converted
131:16 me later was I was like hey what the
131:18 hell was that I mean I could I can't
131:21 look back and just ignore that and um
131:25 and there was one you know like again
131:26 I'm I'm almost a little uncomfortable
131:28 talking about these things cuz I like
131:29 talking about things where I have like a
131:30 real tight argument that I can prove is
131:32 irrefutable profound argument actually
131:34 it was something where I was like look
131:36 so in the moment when it was really all
131:38 on the line and out of my control. I
131:40 wasn't thinking maybe God exists. I knew
131:44 for a 100% certainty unlike nothing I've
131:47 ever known in my life that not only did
131:49 I know that God existed, but I knew what
131:51 he wanted from me. Like I knew what my
131:54 negotiating power in this was is that I
131:56 could pro, you know what I'm saying?
131:58 Like I could promise I'll be a good
131:59 person. I'll do So not only did I know
132:01 God existed, I knew that God wanted me
132:03 to be a good person. And there was and
132:07 look this is something that people who
132:08 have found God know and people who don't
132:10 believe in God maybe will not accept but
132:12 there is something to when you open
132:16 yourself up like that to
132:19 God like you find out that he's real and
132:23 it's not like he speaks to you or he
132:25 hallucinates I don't like see a fiery
132:27 bush and the words of God started
132:28 talking but like he fills you like you
132:31 when you open yourself like that to it
132:33 you get filled by it and there's No,
132:35 there's no more debate in your mind over
132:37 whether that's a real phenomenon or not.
132:39 You're like any more than like if I were
132:41 to leave here and someone were to be
132:43 like, "Do you believe in Tucker
132:44 Carlson?" And like I'd be like, "No, I
132:46 know for certain like I know for a
132:48 certainty that Tucker Carlson exists. I
132:50 was just with him." It's it's like that.
132:52 And so it was um and it's never it's it
132:54 changed my life and ever since I'm I
132:56 regularly pray to God. It's something
132:58 I'm conscious of every single day. No
133:00 way. Um every day. Every day. And always
133:02 I don't even pray exactly. Um I don't
133:05 ask for things ever. I ask for one thing
133:08 ever from God. Um which is that my my
133:11 wife and my kids are healthy and safe.
133:13 It's the only thing I ever pray for. I
133:15 don't ask for anything. The only other
133:16 thing that I do is I I um I express
133:19 gratitude. Got like I just say thank you
133:21 for everything I have. So that's but
133:24 that's the extent of it. But I think
133:26 that I cannot overstate how much I think
133:28 that's made me a better person. Really?
133:30 Yeah. just it's it's very very good for
133:32 you to constantly remind yourself how
133:34 lucky you are that you have all the
133:36 things that you have. It's it's very
133:38 easy to get away from that and that's
133:40 where that's where you you ruin your
133:43 inner happiness, your inner joy is if
133:45 you start you start taking the things
133:46 you have for granted because once you
133:48 like you know once you when you think
133:51 you could lose everything you already
133:53 have and then you don't that's when you
133:55 really appreciate it you know you really
133:57 appreciate what how lucky we all are.
133:59 Well, not to be like too blunt or too
134:02 personal, but you're on the cusp of like
134:03 change in your life on the basis of
134:06 what's happened in the last month in
134:07 your life. I've just seen this story so
134:08 many times. Yeah. So, to be vulgar, your
134:11 income in this year will be higher than
134:13 last year. I'm just telling you that
134:14 because you're way more famous and
134:17 you're also on the right side of
134:19 history, I think. Yeah, I hope so. And
134:22 uh and certainly on the right side of
134:24 popular opinion. So like that. Do you
134:28 think I mean the danger in life is
134:31 getting what you want and finding
134:33 yourself unhappier? Are you worried
134:35 about that? No, I'm really not. Um and I
134:38 do just think that it's because again,
134:41 if this was happening to me at 25 or at
134:43 30, I would be very concerned about that
134:45 danger. Literally, like what I just told
134:47 you is kind of already happened in my
134:49 life. I know who I am as a person. I
134:52 kind of know what money actually means.
134:53 Like there's lots of nice things. I'm
134:55 not downplaying money. It's it's very
134:56 important, particularly in my position.
134:58 It's very important for me to be able to
135:00 protect my wife and kids that we have
135:02 some money, you know what I mean? So
135:04 that I can do that. Um, but no, I'm not
135:07 I'm really not worried about that at
135:08 this point. I think I've kind of like my
135:10 wife herself is a very grounding force
135:12 for me. She's the person whose approval
135:14 I seek. She's the person whose opinion I
135:16 really care about, you know, and so like
135:18 that's and and she keeps me very
135:20 grounded. Also, just as you know, you
135:22 know, having these little kids just
135:24 keeps you grounded because they're uh
135:25 they're they just don't care at all. At
135:27 all, like literally at all. My my
135:29 six-year-old the other day, we were out
135:30 to dinner. Um and so we're out to
135:32 dinner. We're sitting down. My wife, my
135:34 my six-year-old girl and my
135:35 three-year-old boy, and the uh the owner
135:37 of the restaurant is like a fan of mine.
135:39 So, he comes over the table. He goes,
135:40 "Oh, thank you guys so much for coming.
135:42 I just wanted to shake your hand. I
135:43 really appreciate everything you're
135:44 doing." And I was like, "Oh, thank you
135:45 so much. I appreciate that." So, he
135:46 leaves. And then my daughter, my
135:48 six-year-old, who's kind of 17, but
135:50 she's six, she turns over at me and she
135:52 goes, "Why'd he come over and say hi to
135:54 you, Dad?" "Cuz you're famous." And then
135:56 just looks and then just turned right
135:57 back to her menu. I mean, it was like
135:59 she could not have just undercut me more
136:00 than that. I was like, "I guess I'm not
136:02 really that cool." All right, I But that
136:06 that stuff helps.
136:09 I'm really lucky that I didn't have this
136:11 moment 15 years ago that I had it now.
136:15 So I think I think I'll be good but then
136:17 you know you cut back to me in a year I
136:19 come back here I got like the shades on
136:20 or something it's totally ruined me pelo
136:24 not per
136:27 Dave it's it's wonderful to see you no
136:29 matter how many times you've been here I
136:31 hope you will return I hope to to be
136:34 again um and can I just say by the way
136:36 just the last thing I'll say and then uh
136:37 we can end but I will say that you know
136:40 a big part of like the reason why I'm
136:42 able to do what I do and be kind of
136:44 protected because I'm not like I'm not
136:47 vulnerable. At least I don't think I
136:49 hope I don't live to eat these words,
136:50 but I don't think I'm going to be ruined
136:52 or cancelled or anything like that. And
136:54 a big part of it is that Joe Rogan and
136:57 Tucker Carlson have my back. And you
137:00 kind of can't really cancel someone in
137:02 today's world as long as those guys have
137:03 your back. Okay. And so, no, but I'm
137:05 saying you're providing a lot of cover
137:07 for people to be able to tell the truth
137:09 and know that like, oh, you're not going
137:11 to be able to like shut this person out
137:13 of the conversation for the crime of
137:15 telling the truth. Well, the money thing
137:16 is important to that extent. Money does
137:18 not make you happy, but being dependent
137:20 on other people's money can make you
137:23 enslaved. And not having um debt, not
137:26 having investors, we don't have debt or
137:28 investors. That makes a huge difference
137:30 in my life. and and I and but you also
137:34 have like actual skills like you can
137:36 just go do shows for the rest of your
137:38 life. Do you know what I mean? And I'm
137:39 quite happy to do that. That's what I'm
137:41 saying. So actually you were talking
137:43 about Matt Walsh who who I really do
137:44 like and I and I thought for you know to
137:46 the extent that you know he said what he
137:48 said kind of impressive considering he
137:50 works at the Daily Wire. He still works
137:51 at the Daily Wire however and I know I'm
137:53 not mocking him at all. I worked at Fox
137:54 News for you know 15 years and you do
137:58 have like in the back of your mind like
138:00 oh can I say that or you know you self
138:03 censor even when you're not aware that
138:06 you do but if you're if you're truly
138:07 independent then you can be independent.
138:09 Yeah. Which is the best. The best is
138:13 really just so great. Well I I think
138:15 you're funny even if Douglas doesn't
138:17 Dave. Thank you. Thank you Tucker.
138:20 [Music]
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