This content is an interview with Christian author and apologist Lee Stroble, focusing on the historical and theological aspects of Christmas, the birth of Jesus, and the significance of faith. It also touches upon the resurgence of spiritual interest, particularly among younger generations, and the importance of addressing doubts and questions within faith.
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Lee Stroble, welcome back.
>> Thank you.
>> And merry Christmas.
>> You, too. Thanks for uh I wore red.
>> I see. I should have thought about this
a little bit more.
>> That's right.
>> It's not actually Christmas yet, but
>> Well, yeah. Well,
>> but um well, Lee, we had you last year
for Christmas and uh that was the first
time we met.
>> It was. And um then we had John for
Easter with with our mutual friend John.
And so
>> you got the new the book the new book
coming out and uh
>> yeah the case for Christmas. >> Yeah.
>> Yeah.
>> So I thought we got to do this again.
Plus I just love being around you and
hanging out.
>> I love hanging out.
>> So uh so this one will be all about
Christmas and Jesus's birth and all that
good stuff. Yeah,
>> but um but I want to start off with an
introduction just like always. So
>> Lee Stroble, a Christian author,
speaker, and former investigative
journalist. You went from an atheist
investigative journalist into leading
Christian apologist and author, blending
rigorous investigative methods with your
faith journey to influence millions
worldwide. New York Times bestselling
author of over 40 books and curricula
with sales exceeding 18 million copies
translated into 40 different languages.
Recently updated your book, The Case for
Christmas and the In Hobby Lobby has
purchased 1 million copies and is giving
them away for free. So
>> only half a million.
>> Oh, half only half a million.
>> Only half a million. But uh so if you're
at Hobby Lobby, you can pick one up for
free. Uh married to Leslie since 1972
and you have two adult children and four
grand kids.
>> That's me.
>> That's you.
>> Can we go home now?
like I said, I'm just happy to have you
here again. And and you know, we were
kind of talking at breakfast about, you
know, the revival of Christianity. And I
think we actually started talking about
this a year ago, almost to the date. Exactly.
Exactly.
>> And um
>> and and how far it has come just in the
past year. And you had some pretty
interesting statistics. There's actually
a new survey done by the Barner
organization that showed that among
especially young people who have taken
some sort of step as a result of the
Charlie Kirk assassination
far more of them like three times as
many have taken a spiritual step versus
a political step. So I think it's
something like 38% who took a step took
a spiritual step and like 11% took a
political step which to me is a
fascinating um phenomenon when you look
at also Bible sales continue to be
extremely high when you look at how many
young guys are going back to church.
Young women are kind of leaving the
church a bit right now but it's young
guys who are going to church. Um there's
>> this is very new,
>> very new, very exciting. I think it's
like God is kind of stirring the
spiritual pot. You know, something's
going on in the culture. >> Definitely.
>> Definitely.
>> And and I think it's a positive thing. I
think especially Generation X and and um
um alphas, young people, they've been
lied to so much. You know, AI, who knows
if that what's true and what's not. You
go on Twitter and X, you know, and you
see this funny video and then you
realize, oh, it was artificial
intelligence and, you know, television
commercials just lie to you about things
or mislead you. Radio commercials and
and uh politics has told you one thing
when you know that ain't true. And I
think a lot of young people are getting
to the point where I'd like to base my
life on something solid. I like to
anchor it on something that's true. And
that's a good thing because I think
personally my experience has been that's
who Jesus is and that's who we celebrate
at Christmas.
>> I think that's I mean I think you're
right on the money there with why this
is all happening and and yeah the
younger generations are all coming back
but I I see it in the in in all the generations
generations
>> and all I mean I mean I see it in in in
in the older folks and the folks my age
and the younger generation. Everybody at
least everybody around me is start is
talking about this and they're going
back or they're going or they're just initially
initially
>> right first time first time and it's
really it's it's just really cool to see
and so once again I mean that that's I
just I learned so much from you guys and
um and I mean this journey started for
me what about two maybe three years
agoish I think it's about two years ago
>> but you know and and even in this it's
hard to find. There's so many different
opinions and and and and different
context on how you can take scripture
and so and I've just learned so much
from you and from John and and my buddy
Todd that I'm going to bring up again
today. He's probably like, "Oh I
said now." But um but but um and so I I
think it's it's just important and all
so all these people are coming back to
Christ or coming to Christ >> and
>> and
there's a lot of questions and so I I
just I I think
>> we don't all know where to look but
you're you're a great resource.
>> You know I'm yes there are a lot of
questions and that's a good thing. I,
you know, I think a lot of people,
especially people who are Christians,
who are going to a church and they've
got a question, they've got a doubt.
>> They don't want to say anything because
they're afraid, oh, you're going to
think I don't have faith or you're going
to, you know, you're going to look down
your nose at me. And and unfortunately,
they hold it in. And it's like a little
kid, you know, when a little kid has a
nightmare, um, he he jumps out of bed
and he runs into his parents' room and
he jumps into bed and he's sweating and
his heart's pounding and they say,
"What's wrong? What's wrong?" Oh, I had
this dream, this horrible dream. Said,
'Well, tell us about the dream. Oh,
well, there was this monster under my
bed and he had three eyes and he was and
then you start to laugh, you know, and
because you let it out, you talk about
it. And if you hold it in, it's going to
erode your soul questions and doubts.
So, I say let it out, talk about it,
investigate it, do what I did as an
atheist and check out these things. Um,
you'll come to a better resolution of it
that'll give you a solid faith. So, I
hope people don't shrink back when they
have doubts or questions. You know, it
doesn't surprise God. God's not going,
"WHAT? WHAT DO YOU MEAN you don't think
such and such?"
>> He's He's, you know, when when John the
Baptist, who if anybody should know the
identity of Jesus was John the Baptist.
He's the one that pointed Jesus, I
behold the lamb of God who takes away
the sin of the world. But then he gets
arrested. He gets thrown in prison. Now
he's got doubts. Now he's got questions.
But what does he do? Does he allow that
to just erode his soul? No. He gets some
friends together said, "Look, go track
down Jesus and ask him point blank, are
you the one we've been waiting for? We
to wait for somebody else." So they
track down Jesus and they say, "Hey,
Jesus." John's he got busted and now
he's freaking out. So would you just
tell us once and for all, are you the
one we've been waiting for? And how does
Jesus react? Does he get mad? How dare
John of all people have the tmerity to
express a hesitation? No. He said,
'Look, go back to John. Tell him what
you have seen and heard. The blind
receive sight, the lame walk, those who
have leprosy are cured, the deaf hear,
the dead are raised, and the good news
is preached to the poor. Go back, tell
them the evidence that you've seen with
your own eyes, it convinces you that I
am the one I claim to be. So they go
back and they tell John. But this
doesn't destroy John as having any role
in the kingdom of God because he dared
to ask a question or express a doubt.
It's after this that Jesus gets up
before a group and he says among those
born of women there's no one greater
than John. John the guy who dared to ask
a question. So we should feel liberated
as Christians or as spiritual seekers.
Say it's okay to have questions. It's
natural. It's expected. Just kind of do
the due diligence. go to good sources
>> and and and check it out from reputable
people who've got a track record of
accessing scripture in a way that makes
sense and is consistent with the intent
of the writers.
>> Mhm. I love that. Thank you. Thank you. >> Yeah.
>> Yeah.
>> So, last year we did all about the life
of Jesus Christ and this year I want to
talk all about Christmas. Yeah.
>> You know, the Virgin Mary. >> Yeah.
>> Yeah.
>> Bethlehem, the journey,
>> why she had to be a virgin. >> Yeah.
>> Yeah.
and a lot of Jesus stuff, too. Yeah.
>> Awesome. I love that.
>> I thought that would be I thought that
would be a really good uh >> Sure.
>> Sure.
>> for our next Christmas interview.
>> Yeah. Excellent.
>> So, couple things to knock out here real
quickly. You know, you always get a gift
when you come on. Nothing's changed.
>> Come on.
>> Thank Vigilance League.
>> Thank you, man. I appreciate it.
>> You're welcome. You're welcome. And then
>> we got a Patreon account
>> and you know that it's quite the
community and uh they're the reason that
we get to sit here with each other today.
today.
>> We had a lot of good questions but I'm
going to hijack the question today. >> Sure.
>> Sure.
>> And so
>> I'm always I'm always picking your brain
and John's brain and Todd's brain and
and Ron's brain or whoever I bring in um
you know to to chat about about the good
word, right?
But I'm curious, what have you learned
this year?
>> What did you learn? I'm always learning
from you guys.
>> It's a great question.
>> I'm curious what you've learned this year.
year.
>> I learned a lot this year. And I say
that because about 20 years ago, I I did
a book called The Case for Christmas.
And um um it came out, I don't know,
back in 2002, something like that. And
um now the new book is a complete
rewrite and complete revision and
updating of that book. So I had to
update it. I had to do the research. And
I learned so much in the research of
that book that changed my perspective on
Christmas, changed my perspective on um
the Gospels, uh changed my perspective
on Jesus. Um just a lot of things about
um uh the some of the translations that
may not be giving us the best picture of
what really took place. uh there's one
Greek word and if you get that Greek
word wrong it kind of changes everything
and I think a lot of people have gotten
it wrong. So um and then the questions
things like things that everybody
wonders about like why do we celebrate
it on December the 25th? Um I had my
theories about that but now there's been
some more recent scholarly research done
into that. So now we got good evidence
why we do celebrate on December 25th.
So, I just kind of by updating the book,
I kind of updated my own knowledge about
Christmas and it just made this
Christmas so much more fun because I get
to tell, hey, you know what? And I get
to tell people all this fascinating stuff.
stuff.
>> Good. Well, I can't wait to hear
everything you've learned. So,
>> last thing, I'd like to just,
>> you know, we always kick it off with a
prayer. Yeah.
>> So, if you don't mind, I'd love uh for
you to lead us and then I may insert a
couple of things here at the end. Yeah.
>> Lord, thanks for this opportunity to
talk to Sean Sean see him again and hang
out with his folks, his people here at
his place. It's just such a
encouragement to me and such a joy to
do. And we pray that as we talk about
Christmas, this the incarnation of the
son of God, this monumental miracle that
took place 2,000 years ago, that it
would first of all encourage people who
are your followers and embolden them and
give them confidence in what we believe.
But I pray for those that are kind of
spiritually curious. They they're not
sure what they believe. They're on a
journey. They're questioning things.
They're doubting things. Lord, I pray
you use our conversation to point them
toward you in Jesus name. In Jesus name.
And I would just like to add, you know,
that there are a lot of a lot of folks
out there looking for answers as as Lee
kind of just mentioned, but there's also
a lot of people out there that are
lonely on Christmas and other holidays.
And and we just ask that that you be
with them and we hope that we can bring
them at least a little bit of joy
through our interview today, which we'll
be releasing on Christmas in Jesus name. Amen.
Amen.
>> Amen. Thank you. That's great.
>> All right, Lee. Thank you.
>> Yeah. All right. So, man, with all this
stuff that you've learned, I don't You
just rewrote my whole outline. So, uh,
so we're going to go down a lot of
rabbit holes. So, I have an outline and
I would just anything that you've
learned, if you think it's it's
appropriate to share in that portion of
the interview, please do cuz I am
fascinated to hear,
>> you know, with what you've learned. But
I'd like to start off with the Virgin Mary.
Mary.
>> Yes. So
when did we know that I have when did we
know that Jesus was going to come from
the Virgin Mary?
>> We knew it 700 years before it happened.
Um the prophet Isaiah in Isaiah 7:14
for foretold that the Messiah would be
born of a virgin. Now that gets a little
controversial because skeptics will say
sometimes, "Well, wait a minute. The
word alma in the Greek that's used there
doesn't always necessarily mean virgin.
If they meant if to use virgin, they
would use the word batula, which is
another Hebrew word. And so, was he
really talking about a virgin birth of
the Messiah?
>> Well, there the answer is there was no
single word in ancient Hebrew that
always meant virgin. They didn't have a
word in their vocabulary. The word
that's used alma means young maiden. And
a young maiden was presumed to be a
virgin in those days. The other word
that people want him to use patula
actually is used sometimes of widows who
were not virgins. So they did use the
correct word a young maiden a virgin is
to give birth. In fact before Jesus was
even born when the scholars translated
the Hebrew scriptures into the Greek the
word that they chose was for that
translation this before Jesus was born
was virgin. So they got it. Um, so this
prediction 700 years in advance was that
the Messiah would be born of a virgin.
Other people say, "No, no, no. That
actual passage that was a prophecy for
King Ahaz who lived back in those days."
And yes, there is stuff in there about
King Ahaz. It's a double fulfillment of
that passage. Um, but it's in a nest of
messianic prophecies. Isaiah chapter 7,
the Messiah is going to be born of a
virgin. In Isaiah chapter 9, he is
already born and he is declared mighty
God. In Isaiah 11, he is reigning with
the power of the spirit. So, this is in
a cluster of messianic prophecies.
Besides which, this King Ahaz, he was in
trouble back then. There was there were
a couple armies that were trying to kill
King Ahaz. And um so God was trying to
reassure him, hey, look, I'm going to
take care of you. Don't worry about it.
you're going to come out fine. Um uh but
King Ahaz was of the house of David. If
he had been killed as these enemies were
trying to kill him back then, that would
have ended the line of David. The
Messiah was to come through the line of
David. So the the fact that Ahaz needed
to survive this challenge to his life
was very relevant to the birth
ultimately of the Messiah. So, we knew
700 years before Jesus was born that the
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I want to ask you, this is the phone
call that I took when you were when you
were So,
I bring up Todd a lot. Todd is Todd is
who I do my Bible study with.
>> I know every time I mention his name,
he's like, "Oh, boy, where are we
going?" But, um, but I remember the very
first Bible study I ever did um
actually. Yeah. Ever did with with Todd. >> Yeah.
>> Yeah.
>> And just ever. And um we were talking
about Genesis. >> Yeah.
>> Yeah.
>> And it was Genesis 3:15. >> Mhm.
>> Mhm.
>> And he says, and I have this recording,
maybe I'll play it for you if I don't
describe it right. He says that
>> that God is basically telling Satan that
his nemesis that's going to crush him,
That's right.
>> is going to be from the seed of a woman.
>> That's right. But Todd then also says
the woman does not have a seed. The man
is the one that has a seed. And so we
knew all the way back in Genesis when
God told Eve
>> That's right.
>> that the Messiah is going to come from a virgin.
virgin. >> So
>> So
>> through this, you know, kind of in a
cryptic type way, right?
>> Is that a prophecy right there?
>> It is a prophecy. You're exactly right.
Um, you know, a a female child has two X
chromosomes. A male child has an X and a
Y chromosome. The Y comes from the male.
And so in order for Mary to give birth
to a male child, she would have to have
a Y chromosome in her OAM. How did that
happen? She wouldn't have she just have
two X's. She would not have the the male
the Y chromosome. So how how can it come
from the seed of a woman um with how
does she get a Y chromosome? Well, this
was a big problem for one of the main
biggest defenders of Christianity in the
world, two earned PhDs is do, his name
is Dr. William Lane Craig. Dr. Craig
doubted the virgin birth because he said
Mary can't give birth to a male child
without a a literal husband um you know
having sex with her um because she
doesn't have the Y chromosome.
So it bothered him for and then he said,
"Oh, wait a minute. Wait a minute."
Scientists all around the world now
agree the universe began to exist at
some point in the past. Therefore,
whatever begins to exist has a cause
behind it. We now know the universe
began to exist. So there must be a cause
behind the universe. What kind of a
cause can bring a universe into
existence? It must be transcendent or
separate from creation. It must be
immaterial or spirit because it existed
before the physical world. It must be
eternal or timeless because it existed
before time came into being physical
time at the creation. Must be powerful
given the immensity of the creation
event. Must be smart given the precision
of the creation event. Must be personal
because they had to make the decision to
create. Must be creative because look at
the beauty of the cosmos. Must be loving
because he crafted such a perfect
habitat for us to flourish in. And the
achams razor achams razor which is a
scientific principle tells us there
would be just one creator that is a
description transcendent immaterial
power that is a description of the god
of the bible and so he said wait a
minute if created all that there is for
him to create a y chromosome in Mary
supernaturally would be child's play and
he overcame that objection he had to the
how how could Mary have given birth to a
male child without the Y chromosome. So
it was from the seed of Mary uh as
opposed from a male contribution uh to
the genetics of the child. So um God
could create genetic code, he can create
uh the Y chromosome. That's nothing
compared to the creation of the cosmos
which is unbelievable.
So that kind of satisfied for him uh the
sort of the possibility that God could
have pulled this off.
>> Why why was it so important that Jesus
was born of a virgin?
>> Yeah. Very important because
>> and that's a miracle in itself. So I do
understand the symbolism. Yes, it was a
miracle in itself, but also it meant
that he would not be tainted by original
sin or a corrupt moral nature that has
come down ever since Adam messed up and
has kind of corrupted the human being,
the line of human beings. It had to be
an interruption in that somehow.
Otherwise, she would have inherited this
corrupt moral nature that we all inherit.
inherit.
>> Because that Are you saying that because
she wasn't married?
>> Um, no. I'm saying that because um um
you know all humankind has um got this
corrupt moral nature. But here's the
here's what happened in Luke 1:35 as he
describes the virgin birth. Luke says
through an angel Mary is told the Holy
Spirit will come upon you and overshadow
you so that in other words as a
consequence of that the child will be
born holy and will be declared the son
of God.
He he will become holy means sinless. He
will be sinless. So in other words,
there is something about the conception
of the child through the Holy Spirit
that has um created sinlessness
in the baby who is born because he uses
that word so that the Holy Spirit is
going to conceive the child so that he
will be holy. He will be without sin. Okay,
Okay,
>> we don't understand that process
necessarily, but it is the intervention
of the Holy Spirit that interrupts that
lineage of of corrupt moral nature and
stops it so that this child is born
without original sin without so it's not
the it's not the it's not that
how do I say that? It's not that there
was no sex there was no there was no sex
to conceive. That's not it. It is it is
wiping out a lineage that would have had sin.
sin.
>> Well, there is Yeah, there was no
intercourse that they had before for
Jesus to be born. So, there was no male
contribution of a Y chromosome through
normal sexual intercourse.
>> Um, and so that but that isn't what
eliminates sin from Jesus because Mary
was a sinner.
>> The Bible says she was a sinner. Now,
Catholics would disagree with that, but
I look at the Bible, it says all have
sinned and fallen short of the glory of
God. Doesn't say except for Mary. So,
um, yes, I believe Mary was sinner. I
believe we're all sinners. Uh, Mary
needed forgiveness just as we all need
forgiveness. Um, so what the conception
by the Holy Spirit did is it interrupted
that process and allowed the baby to be
born without sin. So, you know,
Catholics uh believe in the immaculate
conception. um that doesn't refer to the
virgin birth of Jesus. That refers to
the conception of Mary. They believe
that Mary's mother was um gave was
sinless and gave birth to Mary who was
sinless. I just don't see that evidence
in scripture. Personally, I I just don't
see it. I I don't see the evidence of that.
that.
>> Well, if Mary was a sinner, then why was
she the one that was chosen to give
birth to Jesus?
>> Because even as a sinner, she was
apparently a I love Mary. I mean she she
must have been a remarkable young woman
and young woman teenager. She must have
been a remarkable woman because uh uh
the angel says that God has found favor
in you. She must have been a woman of
great devotion, great faith, great love
for God and for people um of all
humankind. Why did he choose his
teenager to be the vessel through whom
the god of the universe Jesus would be
uh incarnated into our world? Who what
was it about her and that's what I love
about her that she was must have in fact
you talked about who would you like to
hang out with in heaven? I want to meet
Mary. Yeah, I want to meet Paul. I want
to meet Luke. I want to meet all these
people. I want to hang out with Mary and
say, "You've got to tell me what it was
like to be the mother of Jesus and I
want to hear the stories and I just I
just admire her." So, but was she a
sinner? Yeah. The Bible says all have
sinned and fall short of the glory of
God. Um, but the Holy Spirit is what
interrupted the transmission of that sin
to Jesus. And he he was always existed.
He is now incarnated into this world as
a sinless fully God and fully man at the
same time.
>> Now, who when did Mary find out that she
was going to carry the son of God?
>> Shortly before she was born. I mean, the
um um this angel appears to her and
begins to tell her that she is most
favored of God and that um and she's
going to give birth to the one who will
ultimately rule the entire cosmos. And
and she said, "H how's that possible?
I'm a virgin. And he says basically,
don't worry about it. The Holy Spirit
will overshadow you. The Holy Spirit
will come upon you and the one you give
birth to will be holy. He will be the
son of God.
>> And how did that angel appear?
>> Um he well, we don't have a lot of
detail. We just know that he appeared to
her. There are a lot of angelic
encounters in the pages of scripture,
about 200 of them. And uh they tend to
differ about how the angel angel can
manifest himself in different ways. And
and it's always as a male in the Bible.
When an angel manifests himself, it's
always as a male. But in ancient I found
cases in ancient Jewish literature where
angels manifested themselves as females.
There's no reason he couldn't. It just
happens to be I think that in the cases
in the Bible, they're manifested as an
angel, as a male. And so I don't it
doesn't describe him. It doesn't uh give
us a a a description of what he looked
like, but she knew he was an angel. I
mean, I don't know if I told you about
this last time, but I had an angelic
encounter myself when I was 12 years
old. And
I knew intuitively this was an angel
intuitively. And he was talking about
heaven at the time. It all kind of fit
together. Um, but he didn't have big
wings. He didn't have a halo. He didn't
have feathers or anything like that. But
uh I knew intuitively that this was this
was a messenger of God. Um so we don't
have Mary describing it.
>> Did it scare you?
>> It startled me. It's the only vision or
dream I remember from my childhood. I
was 12 years old. I'm making a sandwich
in my kitchen and this angel appears. He
kind of descends and I knew intuitively
but I wasn't scared. I um because he was
talking about heaven. He was extoling
heaven, how wonderful heaven is. And I
listened for a minute and I'm making my
sandwich and I said, "I'm going to go
there someday." So I thought, "Everybody
goes to heaven, right?" I said, "I'm
going to go there someday." And he
looked at me. He said, "How do you know?"
know?"
What do you mean, how do I know? I'm a
good kid. I I get good grades in school.
I I pretty much obey my parents. I'm
trying to justify my goodness. Enter
into heaven. And he looked at me and he
said, "That doesn't matter."
And a chill went down. How can that not
matter? all my efforts to be dutiful and
compliant as a kid. You say it doesn't
matter. And then he said, "Someday
you'll understand." And he disappeared.
And I I was embarrassed by that. I
didn't tell many people about it. But 16
years, I became an atheist cuz I thought
it was a bad pizza. I had a bad pizza.
You know, that was just weird. But I
couldn't get out of my mind. And so 16
years later, as an atheist, my wife
drags me to a church. And I'm sitting in
the church and I hear the gospel for the
first time. It's not how good we try to
behave that opens the door of heaven. It
is a free gift of God's grace that we
need to re receive in repentance and
faith. And my mind flashed back. That's
what the angel was telling me 16 years
ago. Number one, he told me something I
did not know. That salvation is a free
gift. You can't earn it. And secondly,
he made a prophecy. someday you'll
understand. And 16 years later, I understood.
understood. >> Wow.
>> Wow.
>> So, I was always embarrassed by and then
I'm being ordained and uh as a pastor
and when you're ordained to have all
these theologians there questioning you
about your the make sure you're okay,
you know, and I'm thinking to myself, do
I tell them about this angelic vision I
had? They're going to think I'm nuts.
They're going to disqualify me from
being a pastor, but I can't hide it. I
got to tell them. So I said, 'Guys, I
just have to tell you something that
happened to me, and it's as real as
anything's ever happened in my life.
It's the only vision or dream I remember
from my childhood. Let me tell you, I
told him the whole story. And they
looked at me, you know what they said?
Yeah, we hear that kind of thing all the
time. They said, "That's that's fine."
And it's a kind of sigh of relief. But I
was, you know, like a lot of Americans,
I was embarrassed by the supernatural.
You know, we think it's a little weird.
we we you know so
>> I feel like that's starting to go away.
>> I I think it is. I hope it is. You know,
I wrote that book, Seeing the
Supernatural, to try to document that
there is a realm beyond what we can see
and touch and put in a test tube. And
it's been amazing how the response to
that. And um I think you're right. I
think people are recognizing that what
we see and touch that that is reality,
but there is a reality that goes beyond that.
that.
>> Yeah. Yeah.
So, let's go back to Mary. >> Yeah.
>> Yeah.
>> Was this Was this a Was this like a
traditional 9-month pregnancy? Was it
sped up? She carried
>> I believe it was.
>> It was.
>> And I'll tell you why. It ties in to an
interesting thing I learned as they did
this investigation.
In earliest Christianity, they did not
observe birthdays. They thought that's a
waste of time. Why do you why do you
celebrate a birthday? In fact, they
would make fun of the Romans. We've
found some letters from some Christian
leaders making fun of the Romans. Why do
you celebrate birthdays? That's silly.
You know why? They would only celebrate
the days of martyrdom. People who died
for their faith. They'd remember and
celebrate those days, but not birthdays.
So, nobody knows when Jesus was born.
>> The Bible doesn't say
um and nobody cared back then. Well,
over 150 years later, people began to
wonder, hey, when was Jesus born? What
was the day that he was born? Um well
there was a very strong belief back then
among Christians um a connection between
creation and redemption. A very strong
connection and they believed sounds a
little weird to us but they believed the
connection between creation and
redemption was so strong that the
Messiah would have been conceived on the
same day of the calendar that he died.
So in the year 200, Tertullian who was a
Christian leader said, "Well, I can
figure out when Jesus died." So based on
the Roman calendar of the day, he
determined that Jesus died on March the 25th.
25th.
Therefore, they concluded he must have
been conceived by the Holy Spirit on
March the 25th.
Fast forward 9 months, December the
25th. He would have been born then on
December the 25th. And many scholars
believe that is where they came up with
December the 25th as a day to celebrate
for the birth of Jesus. >> Interesting.
>> Interesting.
>> Yeah. In fact, very early there was a
there's a guy named Sexist Julius African.
African.
>> He was conceived on March 25th.
>> That's right.
>> Nine months later is December 25th.
>> Exactly. Yep.
>> That's the first time I've heard that.
>> Isn't it fascinating? It's fascinating.
>> Heard all kinds of wazoo crazy
>> crazy things.
>> Maybe maybe not crazy, but
>> we don't know. But you know that I think
that makes a lot of sense based on their
beliefs. Now there was a guy named
Julius Sexus Africanist. He was a very
early church historian and in the in the
very early 200s AD he was writing a
chronology about Christian events and he
said in there that Jesus was conceived
on March the 25th. How would he know?
How could he have possibly known that
the Holy Spirit conceived him? Because
Tertullian had determined that he had
died on March the 25th. And that's why
it goes down in the history of
Christianity as being the day of
conception and therefore nine months
later is December the 25th.
>> Wow. Okay.
>> That is fascinating,
>> isn't it? Yeah.
>> I've heard a lot of different
>> Me too. theories. Me too. That one
>> Yeah. lines up the best.
>> Yeah, I think so.
>> For my opinion,
>> there were some early um Christian
thinkers uh who said, well, based on the
fact that the uh shepherds were in the
fields with their sheep at night. Um
they they said, "Well, we think Jesus
was born on May 20th."
So there you go.
>> I mean that. So on my calendar, I always
mark May 20th. I make it kind of a
special day because I figure I don't
want to miss it just in case, you know.
So I've got December 25th, I got May
20th. Kind of a backup Christmas.
>> So who who was who was Joseph?
>> Yeah, Joseph was probably a carpenter.
Some think he was a stone cutter or
both. Um and um a great man of faith. He
was of the line of David. This is
important because of the conception of
Jesus through the line of David. Even
though he wasn't the biological father,
it was still through this ex through
this relationship that he was born. Um,
Joseph died fairly young.
>> We don't know exactly when, but all of a
sudden he's not there in the gospels anymore.
anymore.
>> Um, and here's an interesting
>> How old is Jesus when that when when he
stops appearing in the Gospels?
>> Uh, we don't really know.
>> We don't know.
>> We don't know the exact timing of when
he died. Was it before Jesus' ministry
or shortly thereafter? Um, we don't
know. Um, but he he disappears. And um,
what's interesting is in Mark 6:3,
Mark, who's writing the perspective of
Peter, who was one of the inner circle
with Jesus, he refers to Jesus as Mary's
son. Well, in first century Hebrew
culture, you would never refer to
someone as their mother's son. Even if
the father were deceased, you'd always
refer to him as the father. Joseph's
son. It should have been Joseph's son,
Jesus. But he didn't say that. He says
Mary's son Jesus. And I think it was
Mark's way kind of a wink to say, "Yeah,
I know he wasn't the biological father.
Um he was conceived by the Holy Spirit."
Yeah. So, it's kind of an interesting
little But anybody who's familiar with
Hebrew culture would tell you right off
the bat, "Oh, wait a minute. He's saying
something there. He would never call her
Mary's son.
>> So what what was he then? Was he was he
chosen? Was he was he in some type of a
relationship with Mary? What what was
his role in Jesus's life? Was he a
father figure? Was he a protector? What?
>> No. He uh he seemed to have come into
the scene because of his relationship
with Mary. He was going to marry Mary.
They were engaged. And they had kind of
a ritualistic thing back then where you
you have a period of kind of engagement.
you're betrothed they would say. So they weren't
weren't
>> probably arranged marriages
>> probably. So probably so and um Joseph
comes from the line of David which is
important because the the prophecy was
that the Messiah would come from the
line of David and um Mary of course was
a wonderful young woman and um you know he
he traditionally
traditionally
you're betrothed gets pregnant not from
you you would you divorc her. Yeah, a
divorce. I mean, you'd walk. He doesn't
do that. He's reassured by an angel that
no, this is okay. This is the Holy
Spirit's doing. And he stays with her.
And um um you know, so he apparently was
a like her, a great person of God that
God trusted to be the conduit through
whom the son of God would enter into humankind.
humankind.
>> Interesting. Interesting. And then I
want to go I want to go through the
whole thing. I mean, why why why Bethlehem?
Bethlehem?
>> Yeah, Bethlehem's important because it
is the town of David and there was a
census that was taking place. And here's
another thing I that that just came out
in recent years. You asked me what I
learned new.
Um, many scholars criticized Luke who
wrote the gospel and the book of Acts
who says, "By the way, I carefully
investigated everything so I could write
an orderly account about the certainty
of what took place." So Luke is saying,
"Hey, I checked all this out. I think he
interviewed Mary." Um if not, he
interviewed Johanna and Susanna who were
friends of Mary who he mentions in his
gospel. So Luke um is uh writing about
this um experience. Um what was what was
it that you want to know specifically again?
again?
>> Why Bethlehem?
>> Oh, that's right. Okay. So, um, people
thought that Luke was wrong in his
telling of Mary and Joseph going to
Bethlehem. And the reason was Jo um um
Luke said there was a census and he said
it was the first census when Corinius
was governor.
Um, and the census said you have to go
to your hometown. Well, Joseph was of
the lineage of David. Bethlehem was his
hometown. That was the the town of
David. And so, he had to go with Mary to
Bethlehem to register for the census.
But critics have said, "No, no, no.
Luke's got this all wrong." Because the
census took place when Corinius became
governor in 6 AD. And yet, King Herod
was still alive according to Luke at the
time of this. Herod died in 4 BC. So,
that's a 10-year gap. Herod died and
then 10 years later, Corinus becomes
governor and the census brings Mary and
Joseph to Beth. It doesn't make sense.
It doesn't add up. Something's wrong.
And people would criticize Luke and
said, "You don't know what you're
talking about." Well, turns out as
usual, Luke was right in the first place
because the verse can be translated the
census took place before Corinius was
governor. So that would account for an
earlier census. There were two censuses.
The one when he became governor became
famous. It was written by a lot of
historians because the the Jewish people
rebelled against it and it became there
were a lot of conflicts and so forth.
And so that that census became famous.
But there was apparently an earlier
census that didn't get that much. Nobody
cared about it because nobody rebelled.
And that was the one that brought Mary
and Joseph to Bethlehem. But there was a
recent discovery by a Swiss scholar
where she found that a guy named Justin
Martyr who was a very early Christian
defender of the faith who said that
Corinius was the procurator
at the time of the census that brought
Mary and Joseph to Bethlehem.
A procurator is someone under the
governor who would actually run a census.
census.
What's interesting is in the Gospel of
Luke where it says that Corinius the the
census took place when Corinius was
governor. The word governor there is not
the typical word you would use for
governor. It's pretty elastic in the
Greek and it could very well mean
procurator. And so what apparently
happened is that this guy Corinius when
he was procurator was assigned to run a
census to have all people return to
their hometown to be counted. And so
Mary and Joseph went to Bethlehem and
then later he was elevated to governor
and then he did another census in 6 AD
and that's the one that got all the
publicity. So they went to Bethlehem
because Corinius, the procurator, issued
a decree saying that everybody had to go
to their hometown. Now you may think
that's weird. Everybody's got to go to
their hometown to be counted. And yet we
have documents from other censuses that
say the same thing.
>> I guess this is pre- internet.
>> It was pre- internet. That's right.
That's right. So we have we have a
document from the year 108 all the way
over in Egypt. And it talks about, hey,
you got to go to your hometown to be
counted because and and this would make
sense that this would be have a census
at that time because Herod was having
some conflict with his higherups
and um it would have been a time a good
time and Herod was sick. He was having
health problems. Um would have been good
time to get a good senses before he
passed away. Um so that does make sense.
So that's why they're in Bethlehem. By
the way, the birth of Jesus of the
Messiah in Bethlehem was predicted and
prophesied 500 years in advance by the
prophet Micah in Micah 5:2 talks about
the Messiah will be born in this little
town, 500 people uh called Bethlehem.
And sure enough, that's what happened.
>> Wow. But it was just it was just for a
census just
>> it was just for and we don't know how
long they lingered, how long they
stayed. They may have stayed for a
couple of months or whatever. and and
and he may have owned property there. I
don't know. But uh yeah, that's what
brought them down to Bethlehem at that time.
time. >> Yeah,
>> Yeah,
>> that is not what I was expecting. I
don't know what I was expecting to hear,
but it wasn't
>> it wasn't to uh comply with government counting.
counting.
>> Yeah, government count. But
>> I know there you go. Government getting
their nose in.
>> Wow, that's interesting. That is
interesting. So, what was the
Let's talk about the star. Yeah,
that's a very interesting question. The
Bible refers first of all to the magi
who were guided by a star to come
worship the child who was born. Who are
the magi? Um, we don't know a lot about
them. The Bible doesn't go into a lot of
detail, but magi were not looked well
upon by Jewish people in the day. Uh,
Daniel in his book in the Old Testament
trashes them. What were they? They were astrologers.
astrologers.
They were divinators. They were
magicians. They studied the stars. They
were astrologers. That kind of thing.
And Daniel called them enchanters. He
trashed them. Which tells us that uh
Matthew in talking about the magi, he
wasn't making this up because you'd
never make up the magi coming to worship
because they didn't like the magi. So
the magi were from the far east. We
don't know exactly where. Persia maybe
probably and um so they come seeking the
Christ sha. Why? Because they saw a star.
star.
Now what was the star? The word in Greek
there for star is flexible. It could
mean any celestial body. Could mean a
comet. Could mean a planetary
conjunction. Could mean a star. It was a
kind of a flexible word. But it was a
star that told them that the Hebrew
um Messiah, so to speak, is coming. The
King of the Jews is been born. They see
this star. Um why didn't everybody else
see it? Why don't other historians say,
"Oh, yeah, there was that great star."
Well, there are some theories about that
we can get into.
>> Well, I mean, if they're astrologers,
they're always looking up there and they
barely map the sky.
>> Exactly. They see things that you and I
wouldn't notice. Um um what could the
star have been? Well,
>> so like I got a question. So back then,
did they know the difference? I don't
think they did. Did they? They did they
know the difference between stars and planets?
planets?
>> Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. They Well, pretty
much. And they knew the difference
between celestial bodies and how they
rot. Oh, they were very careful to
document things that way. And so, um
they see this star. I my theory is it
was a nova. A nova is a star that burns
brighter for a while and then grows
dimmer and then brighter for a while.
And you and I wouldn't have noticed it,
but to them, especially where it was
positioned in the sky, would tell them,
"Uh-oh, something big is going on." Uh,
I think it was a nova. There was a nova
that was seen by Chinese astronomers for
uh 70 days in about the year 5 BC, which
would have been before Herod died in 4
BC. So, it could have been that nova.
Others say there was a planetary
conjunction. In other words, a an
unusual conjunction between the planets
of Jupiter and Saturn that took place
about 7 BC
um in the constellation of Pisces.
I wouldn't care about that, but they
would have. to them. According to
Raymond Brown, great scholar, he said to
them that would have sent the signal
that a Hebrew king has come into the
world who will ultimately rule
everything. So from its con from that
conjunction, they read into it
astrologically and so forth and came to
that conclusion. I think we don't know
for sure. It wasn't Haley's comet. Some
people used to say it was Haley's comet.
That was in 12 BC. That was too early.
Um, it could have been the things I
mentioned. And so this star causes them
to go to Jerusalem because they're
looking for the king of the Jews. Where
do you go? You go to Jerusalem. And they
said to Herod, "Hey, where is this guy
born?" And Herod freaks out. What? What
do you mean a king? What do you mean a
king of the Jews is born? He's freaking
out. He brings in his Hebrew scholars,
says, "Hey, where's the Messiah going to
be born?" And they say, "Well, that's
early. That's easy. Um, Micah 5:2, he's
going to be born in Bethlehem. Okay,
thanks. He gets the magi. He says, "Uh,
hey guys, go to Bethlehem."
So, the magi head out for Bethlehem. And
as they do, they see that star again. My
theory is it's the same supernova that
God had supernaturally moved. I wouldn't
have noticed another scar in the sky.
You wouldn't have noticed it. They
noticed it. And it guided them to the
place where it says not the baby was, it
says where the child was. Cuz we don't
know how long after the birth this was.
Now Jesus is being referred to as a
child, not just the baby.
>> Oh, okay. So maybe this wasn't the night
of the birth.
>> No, it wasn't the night of the birth.
>> For sure. It was not the night of the birth.
birth.
>> Yeah, it was later. So um um that is
apparently. Now here's the significance
of the magi theologically.
The magi brought gifts um that were in
the Old Testament, it mentions certain
gifts that were fit for a king. Three of
those gifts, one was gold, referring to
royal nature.
>> Um one was frankincense, a spice that
referred to a priestly function. And
interestingly, the third one was myrrh.
Myrr was used in im inbalming dead
people in those days. To me that's
foreshadowing why why was Jesus born
into this world? To die. He was to
ultimately give up his life to pay for
the sins of humankind. And I think the
gift of the myrr is a way of almost
saying yeah this is for his ultimate
death. Now, it's interesting on the
cross when Jesus is being crucified,
they offered him a mixture of water and
myrr to ease the pain and he refused it.
So, they give these gifts. They may have
been emissaries of a king. That's maybe
why they came. Maybe a king sent them.
But here's the theological significance.
And I think this is when I think about
it, this is what blows my mind.
For Jewish people of the first century,
they thought the Messiah would be a
political savior. He was going to
overthrow the Romans. He was going to
elevate the Jewish nation above every
other nation. He was going to create
this Jewish culture that dominates and
that rules the world and so forth. He
was going to be the Messiah, their
answer to all that.
But here come the magi, pagans, Gentiles.
Gentiles.
They come to do what? to worship the
baby Jesus, the child Jesus.
That theological significance is Jesus
was not he is for the Jewish people, but
he's it goes beyond that that Jesus is
the savior not just of the Jewish
people, but for all humankind.
Even these magi who were Gentiles, who
were pagans, even they came, sinners who
came to worship,
they were included in God's plan of redemption.
redemption.
That to me was a real eyeopening thing
of these magi showing up to pay homage
to Jesus. >> Wow.
>> Wow.
Thank you. Thank you, Lee. Let's take a
quick break. >> Yeah.
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>> All right, Lee, we're back from the
break and uh while we're on the break,
you had mentioned that Mary and Joseph
took the gold and sold it.
>> They probably did. A lot of scholars
believe well they had to finance their
trip to Egypt. So because they're
avoiding Herod who wanted to kill all
the children uh who may be the
threatening messiah and so um uh how do
they finance their trip to Egypt? Some
scholars believe they took the gold that
they got and fortuitously sold that so
they could go off and uh protect
themselves from the evil uh intentions
of King Herod. So do we know I mean
earlier you had mentioned that you know
the the
excuse me the three wise men yeah you
know that they may it it didn't look
like that they were there the day of the
birth right
>> and so how how old is there any any do
you have any thoughts on how old Jesus
was when they fled to Egypt
>> uh based on when that star first appeared
appeared Herod
Herod
said, "I'm going to kill all the male
children in Bethlehem up to the age of
what was it? Um, two, I think it was."
So, um,
that gives some idea of the time frame.
Now, one of the criticisms you hear from
skeptics is to say, "Well, wait a
minute. You're telling me that King
Herod goes in and kills all these kids
under the age of two in Bethlehem, and
nobody else in history reports it?" I
mean, shouldn't Josephus, the historian
from the first century, have said
something about this? And the answer is
probably not.
>> I mean, it's a town of 500.
>> It's a town of 500. So, how many kids
under two would there be? Maybe a dozen
or so.
>> And uh it was in the middle of No, I
mean, it was not on a major highway. It
wasn't a major city. Um uh and Herod was
a bloodthirsty king. He killed members
of his own family. He was killing
everybody. And so it wouldn't be news
that he decided to kill a bunch of
babies. Um, and it took time for news to
get out back then. Um, there's no CNN,
there was no Fox News, you know, things.
There's no satellite coverage. And so
this took place in an obscure little
town and and yeah, a couple of dozen
kids were were killed. Um, which was, by
the way, prophesied in the Old Testament
um as well. So this is another
fulfillment of prophecy. Wh what how how
>> there there was a problem I'm trying to
think of the exact reference but there
was a prophet about the weeping that was
taking that would take place and um the
context suggests that this is referring
to the murder of the children in
Bethlehem. So this was there's there's
so many ancient prophecies about the
coming of the Messiah. Uh so many that
Jesus could not have intentionally
fulfilled them. In other words, one of
the prophecies is that Jesus rode a
donkey into Jerusalem before he was put
to death. Well, so what? He could choose
to do that. Okay, I know it's a prophecy
about that. Let go find me a donkey and
I'll ride it in. They'll think I'm the
Messiah. You know, he could have
arranged certain but there are things he
could not have arranged his lineage. He
couldn't arrange. He couldn't have
arranged that um the soldiers gamble for
his clothes when he was on the cross. he
couldn't have arranged for a lot of
things like where he was born. Um um
Daniel even prophesied the time frame in
which he was born. There were all these
things that he couldn't have arranged.
So there was a a scholar by the name of
Dr. Peter Stoner, a mathematician at a
college in California, and he said,
"Wait a minute. Some of these prophecies
could be mathematically quantifiable."
They're quantifiable. For instance,
Micah 5:2 says the Messiah would be born
in Bethlehem. How many people have been
born in Bethlehem? We can calculate
that. So, let's get the ones that can be
calculated and run the numbers. You know
what they found? The odds of any human
being coincidentally
fulfilling just 48 of these ancient
prophecies would be one chance in a
trillion trillion trillion trillion
trillion trillion trillion trillion
trillion trillion trillion trillion.
Wow. It ain't going to happen. And you
get the numbers like that and you can
confidently say that ain't going to
happen by chance. And yet Jesus did it
in fulfillment to prove he is who he
claimed to be, the unique, the Messiah,
the unique son of God. >> Wow.
>> Wow.
>> Um, so there's there's these prophecies
that uh that uh point to him where he
was born. That's how they knew it was
going to be in Bethlehem.
>> How many prophecies are there?
>> Gosh, it depends on how you look at
them. Um, some are more foreshadowings.
um a little less explicit. Some are very
explicit. Um you know, for instance, um
um Isaiah 53 in the Old Testament, this
Hebrew writing written hundreds of years
before Jesus was born. If you if I were
to read that to you right now and say,
"Who does this describe?" You would say,
"Uh Jesus."
It was written hundreds of years before
he was born. It is a picture of the
suffering Messiah. And I it just it's so
powerful that many Jewish people become
Christians just reading this prophecy in
Isaiah. I have a friend named Lewis
Leeds. He was a Vietnam veteran. Came
back from NAM walking down the sidewalk
in Hollywood and he runs into a street
preacher. Yeah. Jesus. Jesus. And I
don't believe I'm Jewish. I don't
believe in Jesus. And he said, "Oh, why
don't you read this?"
And he reads it and he realizes this from Isaiah, the Jewish prophet Isaiah,
from Isaiah, the Jewish prophet Isaiah, hundreds of years in advance. This is
hundreds of years in advance. This is Jesus. But you know what he said? That
Jesus. But you know what he said? That can't be true. The Christians must have
can't be true. The Christians must have changed it.
changed it. So he called up a relative. He says,
So he called up a relative. He says, "Send me the original Hebrew scripture
"Send me the original Hebrew scripture so I can compare." So he gets him and he
so I can compare." So he gets him and he looks at it's the same. And he becomes
looks at it's the same. And he becomes not only a Christian, he becomes a
not only a Christian, he becomes a pastor in Thousand Oaks, California.
pastor in Thousand Oaks, California. >> And what was that? What was what was
>> And what was that? What was what was >> it's Isaiah 53. It's a description of of
>> it's Isaiah 53. It's a description of of the the suffering Messiah, the the death
the the suffering Messiah, the the death and resurrection of Jesus. It it's it's
and resurrection of Jesus. It it's it's absolutely flabbergasting. I don't know
absolutely flabbergasting. I don't know how anybody can read it and not
how anybody can read it and not conclude, oh, that's referring to Jesus.
conclude, oh, that's referring to Jesus. Uh
Uh >> you want to read it?
>> you want to read it? >> Could if you got a Bible handy?
>> Could if you got a Bible handy? >> I got a couple hundred here. Let me give
>> I got a couple hundred here. Let me give me just one second. Yeah, I'll grab one.
me just one second. Yeah, I'll grab one. >> Yeah. You know what? I wonder if I have
>> Yeah. You know what? I wonder if I have it in here.
it in here. >> All right. Here we go. There's a
>> All right. Here we go. There's a >> King James.
>> King James. >> Oh, King James. Okay, that's good. Hold
>> Oh, King James. Okay, that's good. Hold on. Hold on a second.
on. Hold on a second. >> Is that going to work?
>> Is that going to work? >> That would work. Yeah. Hold on. Let me
>> That would work. Yeah. Hold on. Let me check. I may just have it in here.
check. I may just have it in here. >> Yeah. Here. I got it right here. Got in
>> Yeah. Here. I got it right here. Got in the book. Yep.
the book. Yep. >> I have a chapter on the fulfillment of
>> I have a chapter on the fulfillment of prophecies in the book. So, now I don't
prophecies in the book. So, now I don't have my reading glasses, so I'm going to
have my reading glasses, so I'm going to look like a dork reading this, but um
look like a dork reading this, but um here's Isaiah 53. So,
here's Isaiah 53. So, >> to read it.
>> to read it. >> No, I'll read it. Who you ask yourself,
>> No, I'll read it. Who you ask yourself, who does this sound like? He was
who does this sound like? He was despised and rejected by mankind. A man
despised and rejected by mankind. A man of suffering and familiar with pain.
of suffering and familiar with pain. Like one from whom people hid their
Like one from whom people hid their faces, he was despised and we held him
faces, he was despised and we held him in low esteem. Surely he took up he took
in low esteem. Surely he took up he took up our pain and bore our suffering. Yet
up our pain and bore our suffering. Yet we considered him punished by God,
we considered him punished by God, stricken by him and afflicted.
stricken by him and afflicted. But he was pierced for our
But he was pierced for our transgressions. He was crushed for our
transgressions. He was crushed for our iniquities. The punishment that brought
iniquities. The punishment that brought us peace was on him and by his wounds we
us peace was on him and by his wounds we are healed. We like all sheep have gone
are healed. We like all sheep have gone astray. Each of us has turned to our own
astray. Each of us has turned to our own way. And the Lord has laid on him the
way. And the Lord has laid on him the iniquity of us all. He was oppressed and
iniquity of us all. He was oppressed and afflicted. Yet he did not open his
afflicted. Yet he did not open his mouth. He was led like a lamb to the
mouth. He was led like a lamb to the slaughter and as a sheep before his
slaughter and as a sheep before his shears is silent. So he did not open his
shears is silent. So he did not open his mouth. By oppression and judgment he was
mouth. By oppression and judgment he was taken away. Yet who of his generation
taken away. Yet who of his generation protested? For he was cut off from the
protested? For he was cut off from the land of the living. For the
land of the living. For the transgression of my people he was
transgression of my people he was punished. He was assigned a grave with
punished. He was assigned a grave with the wicked and with the rich in his
the wicked and with the rich in his death. Though he had done no violence,
death. Though he had done no violence, nor was any deceit in his mouth, yet it
nor was any deceit in his mouth, yet it was the Lord's will to crush him and
was the Lord's will to crush him and cause him to suffer. And though the Lord
cause him to suffer. And though the Lord makes his life an offering and and
makes his life an offering and and though the Lord makes his life an
though the Lord makes his life an offering for sin, he will see his
offering for sin, he will see his offspring
offspring and prolong his days. In other words,
and prolong his days. In other words, he'll continue to live on. And the will
he'll continue to live on. And the will of the Lord will prosper in his hand.
of the Lord will prosper in his hand. After he has suffered, he will see the
After he has suffered, he will see the light of life. He will come back and be
light of life. He will come back and be satisfied. By his knowledge, my
satisfied. By his knowledge, my righteous servant will justify many, and
righteous servant will justify many, and he will bear their iniquities. He will
he will bear their iniquities. He will die for our sins. For he bore the sins
die for our sins. For he bore the sins of many and made intercession for the
of many and made intercession for the transgressors. Wow.
transgressors. Wow. >> So, there's there's the prediction. The
>> So, there's there's the prediction. The Messiah would suffer and die for our
Messiah would suffer and die for our sins. He would be afflicted by God. He
sins. He would be afflicted by God. He would pay the penalty we deserve for the
would pay the penalty we deserve for the sins we've committed. And yet, he would
sins we've committed. And yet, he would be resurrected. He would continue to
be resurrected. He would continue to live on. He was assigned a grave, but he
live on. He was assigned a grave, but he continued to live on. He was resurrected
continued to live on. He was resurrected from the dead. He conquered death. Um,
from the dead. He conquered death. Um, that passage from Isaiah has led many
that passage from Isaiah has led many Jewish people to faith in Jesus and like
Jewish people to faith in Jesus and like my friend Lewis Leited. Um, so, uh, you
my friend Lewis Leited. Um, so, uh, you know, that's just one of of many
know, that's just one of of many predictions, prophecies made hundreds of
predictions, prophecies made hundreds of years in advance of the birth of Jesus
years in advance of the birth of Jesus on Christmas.
on Christmas. >> Wow.
>> Wow. That's really cool.
That's really cool. >> Isn't it cool?
>> Isn't it cool? >> Yes, it is.
>> Yes, it is. >> Yeah. Yeah. It's a picture. It's a Who
>> Yeah. Yeah. It's a picture. It's a Who would have thought that the the Messiah
would have thought that the the Messiah would suffer? Really? I mean, that that
would suffer? Really? I mean, that that didn't make sense back then. Why? He was
didn't make sense back then. Why? He was paying our transgressions. He was paying
paying our transgressions. He was paying for our sin. Oh, really? That's what the
for our sin. Oh, really? That's what the entire Jewish sacrificial system had
entire Jewish sacrificial system had foretold of the sacrificing of animals
foretold of the sacrificing of animals for sin. It was a foreshadowing that
for sin. It was a foreshadowing that ultimately the son of God who lived the
ultimately the son of God who lived the perfect life who was fully God and fully
perfect life who was fully God and fully man would pay the penalty of death so
man would pay the penalty of death so that our sins would be paid for and he
that our sins would be paid for and he could offer forgiveness and eternal life
could offer forgiveness and eternal life as a free gift of his grace. The thing
as a free gift of his grace. The thing about Christmas is it makes no sense
about Christmas is it makes no sense without Easter.
without Easter. You know, Jesus did not just come into
You know, Jesus did not just come into the world so we could show us how to
the world so we could show us how to live a good life. He did that. If you
live a good life. He did that. If you read the the the sermon on the mount and
read the the the sermon on the mount and the biatitudes, it's these his teachings
the biatitudes, it's these his teachings of how to live are brilliant and and
of how to live are brilliant and and wonderful and so we can't live up to
wonderful and so we can't live up to that. We can emulate as best we can. We
that. We can emulate as best we can. We all fall short.
all fall short. His mission was not to be born only and
His mission was not to be born only and live. It was to die to pay the penalty
live. It was to die to pay the penalty that we deserve. And that's what makes
that we deserve. And that's what makes Christmas, you know, the best stories
Christmas, you know, the best stories are the ones that turn out to be true.
are the ones that turn out to be true. And and so because it's true that gives
And and so because it's true that gives it just an awe inspiring nature.
it just an awe inspiring nature. >> Yeah.
>> Yeah. How many
How many who had knowledge of Jesus's coming
who had knowledge of Jesus's coming other than Mary and Joseph? Oh, that it
other than Mary and Joseph? Oh, that it would be the Messiah. And well,
would be the Messiah. And well, Elizabeth, the cousin, probably
Elizabeth, the cousin, probably understood because she gave birth to
understood because she gave birth to John the Baptist. And and um John knew
John the Baptist. And and um John knew from the outset that this was going to
from the outset that this was going to be who Jesus was. He uh um when when he
be who Jesus was. He uh um when when he heard the news about the coming Messiah,
heard the news about the coming Messiah, the pregnancy of Mary, he jumped in his
the pregnancy of Mary, he jumped in his mother's womb. Uh so that was the first
mother's womb. Uh so that was the first person to recognize Jesus as being the
person to recognize Jesus as being the Messiah was John still in the womb of
Messiah was John still in the womb of his mother.
his mother. >> What? How how do you what
>> What? How how do you what >> Mary find Jo uh Elizabeth uh finds out
>> Mary find Jo uh Elizabeth uh finds out about the pregnancy of Mary um that
about the pregnancy of Mary um that she's carrying the Messiah and uh she's
she's carrying the Messiah and uh she's carrying John the Baptist and he leaps
carrying John the Baptist and he leaps in her womb for joy at this news that
in her womb for joy at this news that the Messiah is coming. So the first
the Messiah is coming. So the first person ever to recognize Jesus being a
person ever to recognize Jesus being a Messiah was an unborn child uh by the
Messiah was an unborn child uh by the name of John.
name of John. >> Wow. And so and but that's it. So, it
>> Wow. And so and but that's it. So, it wasn't God or any of these other
wasn't God or any of these other >> Joseph knew because an angel appeared to
>> Joseph knew because an angel appeared to Joseph and told him what was going on.
Joseph and told him what was going on. So, Joseph knew. Now, who they told and
So, Joseph knew. Now, who they told and who they led into this, I don't know. Um
who they led into this, I don't know. Um but um it was uh uh
but um it was uh uh there was a probably small group that
there was a probably small group that understood what was going on.
understood what was going on. >> Now, how how fast do you think the word
>> Now, how how fast do you think the word spread?
spread? >> Oh, it it spread fast. when the uh when
>> Oh, it it spread fast. when the uh when the shepherds came in, it says they ran
the shepherds came in, it says they ran into Bethlehem, when the angel told them
into Bethlehem, when the angel told them that the Messiah uh is is now born in
that the Messiah uh is is now born in the city of David and they it says they
the city of David and they it says they ran into town to check it out themselves
ran into town to check it out themselves and they checked it out themselves. They
and they checked it out themselves. They found him and so forth and it says they
found him and so forth and it says they to they were telling everybody um that
to they were telling everybody um that hey, guess what? Uh so there was a the
hey, guess what? Uh so there was a the news started. Now, we didn't have the
news started. Now, we didn't have the internet, of course, back then, so news
internet, of course, back then, so news news spread a little slower than it does
news spread a little slower than it does today, but um but it the news was
today, but um but it the news was getting out.
getting out. >> So, they so it was it was it was them.
>> So, they so it was it was it was them. It was the it was the
It was the it was the >> the shepherds.
>> the shepherds. >> It was the shepherds that spread the
>> It was the shepherds that spread the word.
word. >> They were they were starting to tell
>> They were they were starting to tell people. Yeah.
people. Yeah. >> But there was no there was no nobody
>> But there was no there was no nobody knew
knew anything other than what the shepherds
anything other than what the shepherds were spreading.
were spreading. >> Probably not. Think thinking back, I
>> Probably not. Think thinking back, I mean um certainly um when King Herod was
mean um certainly um when King Herod was told by his adviserss that the child
told by his adviserss that the child would be born in Bethlehem, that that
would be born in Bethlehem, that that news began to spread around Jerusalem
news began to spread around Jerusalem because it upset Herod. Um
because it upset Herod. Um >> who told him that?
>> who told him that? >> Um his advisers, his Jewish advisers
>> Um his advisers, his Jewish advisers when the magi came and said, "Hey, we're
when the magi came and said, "Hey, we're looking for the king of the Jews. Um
looking for the king of the Jews. Um where is he?" They figured maybe
where is he?" They figured maybe Jerusalem, right? And uh Herod says,
Jerusalem, right? And uh Herod says, Hold on a minute. Gets his Jewish
Hold on a minute. Gets his Jewish advisor says, "Where is the king of Jews
advisor says, "Where is the king of Jews going to be born?" Bethlehem. Okay. And
going to be born?" Bethlehem. Okay. And then he's the one that told the magi go
then he's the one that told the magi go to Bethlehem.
to Bethlehem. >> Uh and they saw the star that confirmed
>> Uh and they saw the star that confirmed it. But um
it. But um >> now how does the how does how do the
>> now how does the how does how do the advisers know is this from
advisers know is this from >> because of Micah chapter 2 uh 5:2?
>> because of Micah chapter 2 uh 5:2? Really? Yeah. The the ancient prophecy.
Really? Yeah. The the ancient prophecy. They studied these prophecies. They knew
They studied these prophecies. They knew them. They they they lived by them. They
them. They they they lived by them. They were and they were living in
were and they were living in anticipation that the Messiah would
anticipation that the Messiah would come. um Daniel, the prophet Daniel.
come. um Daniel, the prophet Daniel. >> Now, so so did the advisers think this
>> Now, so so did the advisers think this was a bad thing.
was a bad thing. >> No, they would they probably would have
>> No, they would they probably would have been excited. I'm guessing uh that um
been excited. I'm guessing uh that um you know that these magi are coming and
you know that these magi are coming and looking for Yeah. because it's like they
looking for Yeah. because it's like they were Jewish.
were Jewish. >> So the only the only hatred for Jesus's
>> So the only the only hatred for Jesus's Herod is for a power struggle.
Herod is for a power struggle. >> It was a power struggle. Herod was
>> It was a power struggle. Herod was afraid that he would grow up and usurp
afraid that he would grow up and usurp his throne.
his throne. >> Humans addicted to power.
>> Humans addicted to power. >> That's right. And Herod was a he was
>> That's right. And Herod was a he was crazy and um and ill at the time. He was
crazy and um and ill at the time. He was not doing well. Didn't have a long time
not doing well. Didn't have a long time to live. He had killed relatives. He'd
to live. He had killed relatives. He'd killed all kinds of people. Was a
killed all kinds of people. Was a ruthless, bloodthirsty person. And um um
ruthless, bloodthirsty person. And um um you know, he had I mean just to order
you know, he had I mean just to order the destruction of these children. Um no
the destruction of these children. Um no problem. Let's get rid of them that way.
problem. Let's get rid of them that way. Um but an angel had warned Mary and
Um but an angel had warned Mary and Joseph, hey, don't go back to Nazareth
Joseph, hey, don't go back to Nazareth yet. go to e Egypt and hang out for a
yet. go to e Egypt and hang out for a while till things settle down with Herod
while till things settle down with Herod and that's what they did.
and that's what they did. >> Where was
>> Where was Jesus throughout his childhood? I mean
Jesus throughout his childhood? I mean there's a there we don't know anything.
there's a there we don't know anything. >> We don't know a lot. We don't know a
>> We don't know a lot. We don't know a lot. There's some apocryphal literature
lot. There's some apocryphal literature that suggests that he went off to India.
that suggests that he went off to India. There's some stories about him being in
There's some stories about him being in India. They're they're not well
India. They're they're not well supported. We don't know. And I think
supported. We don't know. And I think the reason we don't know is um it's not
the reason we don't know is um it's not really ultimately important. Um it says
really ultimately important. Um it says he continued to grow in wisdom. Um so we
he continued to grow in wisdom. Um so we know that that took place. Um we know
know that that took place. Um we know his father died at some point before he
his father died at some point before he got too old and he was probably very
got too old and he was probably very busy being a carpenter himself. No
busy being a carpenter himself. No doubt. Um but um I think because the
doubt. Um but um I think because the scriptures don't really go into that
scriptures don't really go into that detail, it's probably because yeah, it's
detail, it's probably because yeah, it's really not that important what he was
really not that important what he was doing. But people have tried to fill it
doing. But people have tried to fill it in through the years, you know. So you
in through the years, you know. So you see some of these stories that will pop
see some of these stories that will pop up in what's called non-cononical. In
up in what's called non-cononical. In other words, it's not Yeah. kind of
other words, it's not Yeah. kind of farfetched stuff. There's one
farfetched stuff. There's one far-fetched story. You know, one of the
far-fetched story. You know, one of the stories about Christmas is that Mary was
stories about Christmas is that Mary was on the verge of giving birth as she's
on the verge of giving birth as she's arriving in Bethlehem. Um we don't know
arriving in Bethlehem. Um we don't know that. Uh Luke says while they were in
that. Uh Luke says while they were in Bethlehem, the baby was born. Doesn't
Bethlehem, the baby was born. Doesn't say five minutes. Doesn't say five days.
say five minutes. Doesn't say five days. Doesn't say five weeks or five months.
Doesn't say five weeks or five months. We don't know how long she was there.
We don't know how long she was there. >> So it wasn't a big rush to get to
>> So it wasn't a big rush to get to Bethlehem for the
Bethlehem for the >> We don't we don't know. There was a book
>> We don't we don't know. There was a book of fiction that was written in 200 AD.
of fiction that was written in 200 AD. So that's like, you know, a couple
So that's like, you know, a couple hundred years later. Uh that has no
hundred years later. Uh that has no connection to the eyewitnesses. And in
connection to the eyewitnesses. And in that book of fiction, it was called the
that book of fiction, it was called the protoeangelism. Proto evangelum of
protoeangelism. Proto evangelum of James. had no connection to James or
James. had no connection to James or anybody. It was just fictional. And in
anybody. It was just fictional. And in that account, it says that Mary and
that account, it says that Mary and Joseph got within three miles of
Joseph got within three miles of Bethlehem and the baby was coming. So,
Bethlehem and the baby was coming. So, they went into a cave and gave birth in
they went into a cave and gave birth in a cave among the animals in the cave.
a cave among the animals in the cave. Um, that's where this idea that some
Um, that's where this idea that some think about of giving birth in a that's
think about of giving birth in a that's where that came from. It's a book of
where that came from. It's a book of fiction. It it has no historical
fiction. It it has no historical validity.
validity. >> Okay.
>> Okay. >> Um, so that didn't really happen. But
>> Um, so that didn't really happen. But the biggest mistake in terms of
the biggest mistake in terms of historical understanding of Christmas
historical understanding of Christmas boils down to one word.
boils down to one word. One word in the Greek and how it gets
One word in the Greek and how it gets translated or mistransated.
translated or mistransated. Here's the typical story we hear at
Here's the typical story we hear at Christmas.
Christmas. Mary and Joseph because of the census
Mary and Joseph because of the census had to go to Bethlehem to be counted in
had to go to Bethlehem to be counted in the census because he was of the house
the census because he was of the house of David. So they go to Bethlehem and
of David. So they go to Bethlehem and Mary's pregnant and she's getting close
Mary's pregnant and she's getting close to giving birth. They knock on the door
to giving birth. They knock on the door of an inn or a lodge and the inkeeper
of an inn or a lodge and the inkeeper opens the door and says, "Hey, no room.
opens the door and says, "Hey, no room. Sorry." Just close the door. What are
Sorry." Just close the door. What are they going to do? They go off into a
they going to do? They go off into a stable and they give birth among the
stable and they give birth among the animals in the stable and then she lays
animals in the stable and then she lays the baby in the clean hay of a manger or
the baby in the clean hay of a manger or a feeding trough. That's the typical
a feeding trough. That's the typical story you hear. It all depends on one
story you hear. It all depends on one word. And the Greek word is uh catalya.
word. And the Greek word is uh catalya. And how is that? Because here's what
And how is that? Because here's what Luke says. And this is how all this
Luke says. And this is how all this comes about. Luke says when the baby was
comes about. Luke says when the baby was born, he was put into a manger because
born, he was put into a manger because there was no room for them in the
there was no room for them in the Catala.
King James version translated that word as in.
as in. other some other early writings
other some other early writings translate as in. But that's probably not
translate as in. But that's probably not the correct translation.
the correct translation. Luke only uses the word catalya one
Luke only uses the word catalya one other time in his gospel. When he does,
other time in his gospel. When he does, it's referring to a room in a residence.
it's referring to a room in a residence. When he was referring to an inn or a
When he was referring to an inn or a lodge, he used another word, pohan.
lodge, he used another word, pohan. He doesn't use that here. He uses
He doesn't use that here. He uses catala.
catala. Well, what was a catalya? Well, you have
Well, what was a catalya? Well, you have to understand what a house looked like
to understand what a house looked like in the first century Jewish culture in
in the first century Jewish culture in Bethlehem. A house was one big room
Bethlehem. A house was one big room divided into two parts. There was the
divided into two parts. There was the bigger part and that was the living area
bigger part and that was the living area where the family would live and sleep
where the family would live and sleep and cook and so forth. And there were a
and cook and so forth. And there were a couple of steps down into a smaller
couple of steps down into a smaller area. And that's where the animals were
area. And that's where the animals were brought at night because the animals
brought at night because the animals were like pets. I mean, you ever see a
were like pets. I mean, you ever see a baby uh sheep, little lamb? They're
baby uh sheep, little lamb? They're cute, you know, and the kids love to pet
cute, you know, and the kids love to pet them. They're even even baby goats are
them. They're even even baby goats are are cute. So, they they would come in
are cute. So, they they would come in and they would stay inside uh during the
and they would stay inside uh during the night. There was a manger there with hay
night. There was a manger there with hay in it, but sometimes they would walk up
in it, but sometimes they would walk up the few steps into the living area and
the few steps into the living area and they were like pets, so they pet them
they were like pets, so they pet them and and and so they had a manger in the
and and and so they had a manger in the living area, too, so that if the animals
living area, too, so that if the animals came up, they could eat. That's what a
came up, they could eat. That's what a typical house looked like. The wealthier
typical house looked like. The wealthier people had a catalya. That was a guest
people had a catalya. That was a guest room. That was an add-on, another room.
room. That was an add-on, another room. They had a separate entrance. And so
They had a separate entrance. And so they had in effect two rooms. The the
they had in effect two rooms. The the catalyt, the guest room, as well as the
catalyt, the guest room, as well as the living area and the animal area. What
living area and the animal area. What apparently happened is that Mary and
apparently happened is that Mary and Joseph were coming into Bethlehem and
Joseph were coming into Bethlehem and they went to a home of a relative and
they went to a home of a relative and knocked on the door, say, "Hey, we're
knocked on the door, say, "Hey, we're here for the census." And the person
here for the census." And the person said, "Oh yeah, we got a lot of people
said, "Oh yeah, we got a lot of people coming for the census. Everything's
coming for the census. Everything's crowded. We don't have room in the guest
crowded. We don't have room in the guest room, the catalya. I'm sorry. There's no
room, the catalya. I'm sorry. There's no room." So she could come and you could
room." So she could come and you could stay in the family area, the living
stay in the family area, the living area. And so Mary and Joseph probably
area. And so Mary and Joseph probably lived and stayed in that living area of
lived and stayed in that living area of the home until the baby was born. And
the home until the baby was born. And you know what? Some of the animals may
you know what? Some of the animals may have heard the commotion and come up the
have heard the commotion and come up the stairs to see what was going on. They
stairs to see what was going on. They were pro may have witnessed it. And then
were pro may have witnessed it. And then after Joseph or Jesus was born, she
after Joseph or Jesus was born, she placed him in the clean hay of the
placed him in the clean hay of the feeding trough, the manger there in the
feeding trough, the manger there in the living area. That's probably what took
living area. That's probably what took place. Interestingly, in the year 1395,
place. Interestingly, in the year 1395, so this predates the King James version.
so this predates the King James version. In the year 1395, John Wickliffe did his
In the year 1395, John Wickliffe did his translation into English of the Bible,
translation into English of the Bible, the New Testament. And the word he chose
the New Testament. And the word he chose for Catalya was guest room was room.
for Catalya was guest room was room. Today the most popular translation of
Today the most popular translation of the Bible into English in America is the
the Bible into English in America is the NIV, the New International Version. If
NIV, the New International Version. If you look it up in there, it doesn't say
you look it up in there, it doesn't say there was an inn. There's no inn.
there was an inn. There's no inn. There's no inkeeper. It's the guest
There's no inkeeper. It's the guest room.
room. I think that's what really happened.
I think that's what really happened. So, it kind of messes a little bit with
So, it kind of messes a little bit with our image of Christmas, but um that's
our image of Christmas, but um that's probably a more accurate translation of
probably a more accurate translation of what's going on.
what's going on. >> So, it does kind of change things a bit.
>> So, it does kind of change things a bit. Um but I think linguistically
Um but I think linguistically it makes more sense. And the scholars
it makes more sense. And the scholars who I talked to think that's probably
who I talked to think that's probably the better translation of that word. And
the better translation of that word. And it's really just one word. There was no
it's really just one word. There was no room for them at the Catala.
room for them at the Catala. How do you Oh, guest room. Oh, now it
How do you Oh, guest room. Oh, now it just changes everything. And I think
just changes everything. And I think with an understanding of what a house
with an understanding of what a house looked like back then, it makes even
looked like back then, it makes even more sense than that. By the way, we
more sense than that. By the way, we don't know that there were any ins. As
don't know that there were any ins. As we said, it was a small town, 500
we said, it was a small town, 500 people. It was not on major highways.
people. It was not on major highways. There may or may not have been an in
There may or may not have been an in there. But here's the other thing. In
there. But here's the other thing. In first century Jewish culture, it would
first century Jewish culture, it would have been unthinkable
have been unthinkable for an inkeeper to turn away a pregnant
for an inkeeper to turn away a pregnant Jewish woman. You could not do that. You
Jewish woman. You could not do that. You would be ostracized by the community
would be ostracized by the community because hospitality was a huge value in
because hospitality was a huge value in those days. If an inkeeper turned away a
those days. If an inkeeper turned away a pregnant Jewish woman, he'd be run out
pregnant Jewish woman, he'd be run out of town on a rail. He'd be out of
of town on a rail. He'd be out of business. You just could not do that. So
business. You just could not do that. So that's another reason why I think that's
that's another reason why I think that's not the right translation. I think the
not the right translation. I think the right one is the one the NIV uses, which
right one is the one the NIV uses, which is guest room.
is guest room. >> Interesting.
>> Interesting. Wow. Is
Wow. Is >> that fascinating? That is I mean how how
>> that fascinating? That is I mean how how >> what does it feel like to
>> you kind of come on this stuff? I know it's so
it's so >> I mean it's this is this is what you
>> I mean it's this is this is what you know I'm a journalist. I'm trained in
know I'm a journalist. I'm trained in law but I'm trained in journalism. I
law but I'm trained in journalism. I investigate things and so and you're you
investigate things and so and you're you investigate things and you know the the
investigate things and you know the the feeling is like when you probe something
feeling is like when you probe something and you find out something that makes
and you find out something that makes you go, "Oh my good, this changes
you go, "Oh my good, this changes everything."
everything." >> Mhm. This changes the narrative of how
>> Mhm. This changes the narrative of how Christmas took place. That one word. Oh
Christmas took place. That one word. Oh my goodness. I just love that. I love
my goodness. I just love that. I love how God took my sinful, immoral,
how God took my sinful, immoral, profane,
profane, narcissistic life
narcissistic life and brought me to faith in him and
and brought me to faith in him and transformed my soul and changed my
transformed my soul and changed my character and changed my values and
character and changed my values and changed my philosophy.
changed my philosophy. But he also said, "I'm going to keep
But he also said, "I'm going to keep your journalistic curiosity.
your journalistic curiosity. You use it for evil sometimes when you
You use it for evil sometimes when you were a journalist. I mean, I I hurt some
were a journalist. I mean, I I hurt some people intentionally with my articles.
people intentionally with my articles. I'm going to redeem that. And I'm going
I'm going to redeem that. And I'm going to use it for good. And now I get to I
to use it for good. And now I get to I get to travel and interview some of the
get to travel and interview some of the greatest scholars in the world. And
greatest scholars in the world. And these scholars are so brilliant that
these scholars are so brilliant that nobody understands them.
nobody understands them. And so I sit there and I interview them
And so I sit there and I interview them sometimes for two days and I force them
sometimes for two days and I force them to explain things so I can understand it
to explain things so I can understand it because I figure if I can understand it,
because I figure if I can understand it, anybody can understand it. And then I'm
anybody can understand it. And then I'm able to put it into a narrative that
able to put it into a narrative that everybody can get. So God said, I'm
everybody can get. So God said, I'm going to take what you use for evil in
going to take what you use for evil in many cases and I'm going to I'm going to
many cases and I'm going to I'm going to keep that skill in you. That's who you
keep that skill in you. That's who you are. You're a journalist. You're an
are. You're a journalist. You're an investigator. I'm going to use that for
investigator. I'm going to use that for my purposes. And so virtually all my
my purposes. And so virtually all my books, that's the format. It ain't me
books, that's the format. It ain't me the world's leading scholar. I just go
the world's leading scholar. I just go find the world's leading scholar. I do
find the world's leading scholar. I do like you do. You find people and you
like you do. You find people and you bring them in. I go to them and and I
bring them in. I go to them and and I question. I remember some of my
question. I remember some of my transcripts of my interviews with these
transcripts of my interviews with these experts are 50,000 words.
experts are 50,000 words. >> Whoa. That's a book. that's twice more
>> Whoa. That's a book. that's twice more than twice the size of this book because
than twice the size of this book because I want to spend time to really get what
I want to spend time to really get what they're talking about cuz they write on
they're talking about cuz they write on this in incredible elevated level and so
this in incredible elevated level and so few of them can put the cookies on the
few of them can put the cookies on the bottom shelf so we all can enjoy them.
bottom shelf so we all can enjoy them. >> Um so anyway it's that that sense of
>> Um so anyway it's that that sense of discovery as you that you go through as
discovery as you that you go through as well when you're interviewing someone
well when you're interviewing someone you go I never thought of that or I
you go I never thought of that or I never knew that before. I get to do that
never knew that before. I get to do that all the time. I I love that.
all the time. I I love that. what you're kicking over is a lot bigger
what you're kicking over is a lot bigger than the, you know, than the than the
than the, you know, than the than the than the timely news that I'm
than the timely news that I'm kicking over. But, uh, but man, that has
kicking over. But, uh, but man, that has got to feel like just incredible.
got to feel like just incredible. >> It's awesome. It's awesome. And things,
>> It's awesome. It's awesome. And things, you know, things I always wondered
you know, things I always wondered about. Um, like here's one I always
about. Um, like here's one I always wondered about. Is it okay? I hear
wondered about. Is it okay? I hear people criticize
people criticize Christians. I hear Christians criticize
Christians. I hear Christians criticize people because they would spell
people because they would spell Christmas X MAS.
Christmas X MAS. Say, "Oh, you're taking Christ out of
Say, "Oh, you're taking Christ out of Christmas." What do you think of that?
Christmas." What do you think of that? Well, there may be people that's their
Well, there may be people that's their intention, but that's not what they're
intention, but that's not what they're doing. And here's the reason. Again,
doing. And here's the reason. Again, this is something I learned. I go, "Oh
this is something I learned. I go, "Oh my goodness, this explains it." Um, in
my goodness, this explains it." Um, in the earliest days of Christianity, they
the earliest days of Christianity, they were being oppressed.
were being oppressed. and they would often abbreviate Christos
and they would often abbreviate Christos which was the Greek word for Christ, the
which was the Greek word for Christ, the Messiah, the Savior. So the Greek word
Messiah, the Savior. So the Greek word Christos um began with an X. It was
Christos um began with an X. It was called Kai in the Greek. So the first
called Kai in the Greek. So the first letter of Christ was an X meaning
letter of Christ was an X meaning pronounced Kai. The second word was a P
pronounced Kai. The second word was a P and it was pronounced row. So the first
and it was pronounced row. So the first two letters of Christ or or the Messiah,
two letters of Christ or or the Messiah, the savior Christ in the Greek was
the savior Christ in the Greek was called Cairo.
called Cairo. That became a standard abbreviation in
That became a standard abbreviation in the early days of Christianity. So in
the early days of Christianity. So in other words, the Christians were going
other words, the Christians were going to get together at a certain location.
to get together at a certain location. They didn't want the Romans to know that
They didn't want the Romans to know that they were going to get together because
they were going to get together because they're going to be persecuted. So they
they're going to be persecuted. So they would leave in the sand or something,
would leave in the sand or something, they'd leave a an X and a P.
they'd leave a an X and a P. >> No kidding. So it was code.
>> No kidding. So it was code. >> Yeah, that's right. A code. and and the
>> Yeah, that's right. A code. and and the the Romans wouldn't know what that was,
the Romans wouldn't know what that was, but they knew that Cairo meant it meant
but they knew that Cairo meant it meant Christ. So in the year 1025,
Christ. So in the year 1025, a scribe was writing some Christian
a scribe was writing some Christian materials on parchment. Well, parchment
materials on parchment. Well, parchment was very expensive, so he was trying to
was very expensive, so he was trying to save some parchment. So as he's writing
save some parchment. So as he's writing it, he gets to the word Christmas
it, he gets to the word Christmas and he's thinking that's going to take
and he's thinking that's going to take up a lot of space. So he abbreviate
up a lot of space. So he abbreviate abbreviates it Cairo Xp
to save space to save parchment and it caught on and it got abbreviated later
caught on and it got abbreviated later even further to just XMAS.
even further to just XMAS. So the X in XMAS refers to Christ.
So the X in XMAS refers to Christ. You're not taking him out of Christmas
You're not taking him out of Christmas if you just put XMAS. You're just
if you just put XMAS. You're just abbreviating in a way that even the
abbreviating in a way that even the earliest Christians did. In fact, that's
earliest Christians did. In fact, that's actually kind of cool.
actually kind of cool. >> It is kind of cool. And get this, get
>> It is kind of cool. And get this, get this. Remember when was it? I don't know
this. Remember when was it? I don't know the year, but remember when all the
the year, but remember when all the immigrants were coming over to was it
immigrants were coming over to was it Ellis Island in New York? They were
Ellis Island in New York? They were immigrating into New York in the uh
immigrating into New York in the uh early uh days. And uh many Jewish people
early uh days. And uh many Jewish people were immigrating into the United States.
were immigrating into the United States. And they were illiterate. They couldn't
And they were illiterate. They couldn't read. And so the immigration officials
read. And so the immigration officials would say, "Okay, sign your name here."
would say, "Okay, sign your name here." They couldn't sign their names. They
They couldn't sign their names. They couldn't spell. They couldn't read. So
couldn't spell. They couldn't read. So the immigration official will say,
the immigration official will say, "Well, just put an X because we put
"Well, just put an X because we put sometimes put an X for they wouldn't do
sometimes put an X for they wouldn't do it because these Jewish people knew, no,
it because these Jewish people knew, no, no, no, no. That X means Christ."
no, no, no. That X means Christ." They put an O
They put an O to contrast with the X.
to contrast with the X. >> No way.
>> No way. >> Yes. So they said, "I'm not put." So
>> Yes. So they said, "I'm not put." So they even knew back then, this was when
they even knew back then, this was when in 1920s, whenever that was, that big
in 1920s, whenever that was, that big influx of immigrants. Um they even knew,
influx of immigrants. Um they even knew, "Don't put an X because that's saying
"Don't put an X because that's saying Christ. I'm going to put an O instead.
Christ. I'm going to put an O instead. That was a Yiddish referring to a
That was a Yiddish referring to a Yiddish uh word. So, they were aware of
Yiddish uh word. So, they were aware of this. So, I think a lot of Now, there
this. So, I think a lot of Now, there may be atheists who are trying to take
may be atheists who are trying to take Christ out of Christmas who you do that
Christ out of Christmas who you do that with ill intent.
with ill intent. >> I've always heard don't write it like
>> I've always heard don't write it like that.
that. >> I have too. I was raised.
>> I have too. I was raised. >> I have too. And I think that's because
>> I have too. And I think that's because people said you're taking Christ. No,
people said you're taking Christ. No, you're not really. You're just
you're not really. You're just abbreviation
itself from Christ's mass. So Christmas itself is an abbreviation. So it's okay
itself is an abbreviation. So it's okay to abbreviate XMAS.
to abbreviate XMAS. >> I like that. I feel like that's a little
>> I like that. I feel like that's a little a little uh insert you should put on
a little uh insert you should put on your Christmas card this year.
your Christmas card this year. >> Yeah. There you go. There you go.
>> Yeah. There you go. There you go. >> Man, man, I'm curious. You know, I've
>> Man, man, I'm curious. You know, I've talked to I told you I don't know if you
talked to I told you I don't know if you remember, I grew up Catholic. I still
remember, I grew up Catholic. I still >> still go back and forth. I like both.
>> still go back and forth. I like both. But you know, one thing that I find
But you know, one thing that I find interesting, I'm just curious to hear
interesting, I'm just curious to hear your thoughts, is when I when I'm
your thoughts, is when I when I'm talking to uh Christians,
talking to uh Christians, non-denominational Christians, um
non-denominational Christians, um Christians like yourself.
Christians like yourself. >> Yeah.
>> Yeah. >> At least I think you think this.
>> At least I think you think this. >> Yeah.
>> Yeah. >> The gates of heaven are wide open.
>> The gates of heaven are wide open. >> When I talk to people that I respect in
>> When I talk to people that I respect in the Catholic church,
the Catholic church, >> Yeah.
>> Yeah. >> the gates are about this narrow. What
>> the gates are about this narrow. What are what are your thoughts on that?
are what are your thoughts on that? >> Well, Jesus said the the way is narrow.
>> Well, Jesus said the the way is narrow. He did say that. Yeah. He said wide is
He did say that. Yeah. He said wide is the road that leads to destruction, but
the road that leads to destruction, but narrow is the gate that leads to life.
narrow is the gate that leads to life. >> It is narrow because the way I see that
>> It is narrow because the way I see that understanding that is it's narrow
understanding that is it's narrow because it's only through him. It's
because it's only through him. It's narrow because he is the only passage to
narrow because he is the only passage to heaven. That redemption only comes
heaven. That redemption only comes through Jesus Christ. I think that's
through Jesus Christ. I think that's what he meant by saying the road is
what he meant by saying the road is narrow. Um you have to follow him. Um,
narrow. Um you have to follow him. Um, so how many people will actually end up
so how many people will actually end up in heaven? I don't know. Um, I think it
in heaven? I don't know. Um, I think it all the believers.
all the believers. >> Yes. I think it's anyone who puts their
>> Yes. I think it's anyone who puts their trust in Christ. Anybody who We're all
trust in Christ. Anybody who We're all sinners. The Bible say the way I I I
sinners. The Bible say the way I I I look at it is um, you know, the Bible's
look at it is um, you know, the Bible's 80,000 words and you can summarize the
80,000 words and you can summarize the whole Bible in 21 words, one verse.
whole Bible in 21 words, one verse. Romans 6:23. For the wages of sin is
Romans 6:23. For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is
death, but the free gift of God is eternal life through Christ Jesus our
eternal life through Christ Jesus our Lord. The wages of sin is death. In
Lord. The wages of sin is death. In other words, what we deserve, what we've
other words, what we deserve, what we've earned, the consequences of living a
earned, the consequences of living a life apart from God, denying him,
life apart from God, denying him, violating his laws and his morality. The
violating his laws and his morality. The consequence of that is death, which
consequence of that is death, which means eternal separation from God.
means eternal separation from God. That's what hell is. But the verse says
That's what hell is. But the verse says the free gift. And it's interesting,
the free gift. And it's interesting, most translations don't say free gift.
most translations don't say free gift. They should say gift because all gifts
They should say gift because all gifts are free. But the translation I like
are free. But the translation I like includes the word free to emphasize the
includes the word free to emphasize the free gift of God is eternal life through
free gift of God is eternal life through Christ Jesus our Lord. In other words,
Christ Jesus our Lord. In other words, Jesus fully God and fully man
Jesus fully God and fully man lived the perfect life. He dies on a
lived the perfect life. He dies on a cross to pay the penalty we deserved for
cross to pay the penalty we deserved for the sins that we've committed. And he
the sins that we've committed. And he offers forgiveness and eternal life as a
offers forgiveness and eternal life as a free gift of his grace.
free gift of his grace. And anyone who receives that gift
And anyone who receives that gift becomes a child of God and the doors of
becomes a child of God and the doors of heaven will be flung open for them. So I
heaven will be flung open for them. So I think the narrowness mainly refers to
think the narrowness mainly refers to narrow in the sense it only comes
narrow in the sense it only comes through one person, only comes through
through one person, only comes through Jesus. Nobody else can atone for our
Jesus. Nobody else can atone for our sins. We're either going to pay for our
sins. We're either going to pay for our sins. Somebody's going to pay for our
sins. Somebody's going to pay for our sins. It's either going to be us and
sins. It's either going to be us and we're going to spend eternally separated
we're going to spend eternally separated from God because only perfect people end
from God because only perfect people end up in heaven. We're not perfect. So, we
up in heaven. We're not perfect. So, we got a problem if we're going to pay for
got a problem if we're going to pay for our sins ourselves. We're going to be
our sins ourselves. We're going to be eternally separated from God. That's
eternally separated from God. That's what hell is. Or we can receive this
what hell is. Or we can receive this free gift of redemption, this free gift
free gift of redemption, this free gift of God paying for our sins through Jesus
of God paying for our sins through Jesus Christ and offering it as a free gift of
Christ and offering it as a free gift of his grace. Um, so those are the kind of
his grace. Um, so those are the kind of the two choices. how many people through
the two choices. how many people through history will have received that gift and
history will have received that gift and will spend eternity in heaven. We'll
will spend eternity in heaven. We'll find out someday. But um I think that
find out someday. But um I think that narrowness refers to the way is narrow
narrowness refers to the way is narrow because it goes through one person.
because it goes through one person. >> It's interesting because if you believe
>> It's interesting because if you believe it doesn't really seem that narrow
it doesn't really seem that narrow >> well to me.
>> well to me. >> Yeah. Except it's believe in what?
>> Yeah. Except it's believe in what? Believe in Jesus. That's at one person.
Believe in Jesus. That's at one person. That's what I think makes it narrow.
That's what I think makes it narrow. >> It's it's not it's not like you can have
>> It's it's not it's not like you can have a believe I can believe in Krishna. I
a believe I can believe in Krishna. I can believe in um uh Allah. I can
can believe in um uh Allah. I can believe in all these different things.
believe in all these different things. No, no, no. It is only through Jesus
No, no, no. It is only through Jesus Christ. And it's very interesting, you
Christ. And it's very interesting, you know, when I was an atheist and I did my
know, when I was an atheist and I did my investigation into Christianity. I also
investigation into Christianity. I also investigated other religions too and I
investigated other religions too and I investigated Islam and I read the Quran.
investigated Islam and I read the Quran. And what struck me about the Quran is
And what struck me about the Quran is how it specifically denies the exact
how it specifically denies the exact things you need to believe according to
things you need to believe according to Christianity to be saved. Number one, it
Christianity to be saved. Number one, it says in the Quran in Surah 4 verse 157
says in the Quran in Surah 4 verse 157 that Jesus didn't die on the cross.
that Jesus didn't die on the cross. Well, if he didn't die on the cross,
Well, if he didn't die on the cross, there's no atonement for sin and there's
there's no atonement for sin and there's no resurrection and conquering of death.
no resurrection and conquering of death. Number two, the Quran says that God
Number two, the Quran says that God doesn't have a son. Specifically says
doesn't have a son. Specifically says that. Number three, the Quran says no
that. Number three, the Quran says no one can bear the sins of another. Well,
one can bear the sins of another. Well, that's what Jesus did on the cross. The
that's what Jesus did on the cross. The three very things I need to believe to
three very things I need to believe to be a Christian is that Jesus is the
be a Christian is that Jesus is the unique son of God. That he went to the
unique son of God. That he went to the cross. He paid the penalty we deserve
cross. He paid the penalty we deserve for the sins we committed. He paid he
for the sins we committed. He paid he carried our sins. He paid for our sins
carried our sins. He paid for our sins and he was resurrected from the dead
and he was resurrected from the dead conquering death and proving he is who
conquering death and proving he is who we claim to be the unique son of God. So
we claim to be the unique son of God. So I'm re here I am reading the Quran and
I'm re here I am reading the Quran and I'm reading the Bible and I'm saying
I'm reading the Bible and I'm saying okay
either they're both false or one of them is true. They cannot both
or one of them is true. They cannot both be true at the same time. They they
be true at the same time. They they can't be. Um if the Quran is true, the
can't be. Um if the Quran is true, the Bible's false. If the Bible is true, the
Bible's false. If the Bible is true, the Quran is false. They can't both be true.
Quran is false. They can't both be true. So I had to look which one. And that's
So I had to look which one. And that's what led me to conclude that I can trust
what led me to conclude that I can trust the Bible because of largely the
the Bible because of largely the resurrection of Jesus, the historical
resurrection of Jesus, the historical data that established that he was born
data that established that he was born on Christmas, he lived the perfect life,
on Christmas, he lived the perfect life, he died, and then the incredible
he died, and then the incredible evidence he was resurrected from the
evidence he was resurrected from the dead to prove that he is we claim to be
dead to prove that he is we claim to be the unique son of God. So, um I mean
the unique son of God. So, um I mean I've got a good friend who whose name
I've got a good friend who whose name you would know who is a Muslim and he
you would know who is a Muslim and he came over to my house for dinner and
came over to my house for dinner and because his girlfriend had become a
because his girlfriend had become a Christian. She read my book, The Case
Christian. She read my book, The Case for Christ, and uh she became a
for Christ, and uh she became a Christian. So, he was wanted some
Christian. So, he was wanted some answers. So, he comes over to my house
answers. So, he comes over to my house for dinner and we're cooking steaks.
for dinner and we're cooking steaks. >> Did this guy write a book?
>> Did this guy write a book? >> He's written six books.
>> He's written six books. >> Yeah.
>> Yeah. >> I don't know. I don't know if he would
>> I don't know. I don't know if he would mind if I said his name or not. um
mind if I said his name or not. um Kareem Abdul Jabbar, the number one
Kareem Abdul Jabbar, the number one scorer in the NBA until um what's his
scorer in the NBA until um what's his name from the Lakers succeeded him as
name from the Lakers succeeded him as the number one scorer. But Kareem became
the number one scorer. But Kareem became a friend of mine. His his girlfriend
a friend of mine. His his girlfriend became a Christian through my books for
became a Christian through my books for Christ and uh invited me over to their
Christ and uh invited me over to their place. I spent many hours with Kareem. U
place. I spent many hours with Kareem. U great great guy, loved him. Um brilliant
great great guy, loved him. Um brilliant guy, very smart. has written several
guy, very smart. has written several books and he came over my house for
books and he came over my house for dinner and um at one point I said to him
dinner and um at one point I said to him uh let's set aside religion
uh let's set aside religion and let's just look at the evidence from
and let's just look at the evidence from history for the resurrection of Jesus.
history for the resurrection of Jesus. And I said and I went through the
And I said and I went through the evidence I've got and it's substantial
evidence I've got and it's substantial right there from the first century.
right there from the first century. And I said now what do Muslims have?
And I said now what do Muslims have? They've got someone who says that an
They've got someone who says that an angel told him in a cave 600 years later
angel told him in a cave 600 years later that that isn't true,
that that isn't true, that Jesus didn't really die on the
that Jesus didn't really die on the cross. And yet, I've got all this data
cross. And yet, I've got all this data saying he did. I said, "Set aside
saying he did. I said, "Set aside religion.
religion. Where does the evidence point?" And he
Where does the evidence point?" And he was very thoughtful about it. And he
was very thoughtful about it. And he said, you know, I I choose to believe
said, you know, I I choose to believe the Quran.
the Quran. Okay. I mean, that's you're free to do
Okay. I mean, that's you're free to do that, but
that, but I couldn't do it. I I I I I was
I couldn't do it. I I I I I was following where I think the evidence of
following where I think the evidence of history most persuasively points and um
history most persuasively points and um uh you know I pray for Kareem. He's a
uh you know I pray for Kareem. He's a great great guy. Um I introduced him to
great great guy. Um I introduced him to Mel Gibson uh back when uh The Passion
Mel Gibson uh back when uh The Passion of the Christ was going to come out and
of the Christ was going to come out and I have a picture in a hallway of Kareem
I have a picture in a hallway of Kareem who's like 72. I mean you can't believe
who's like 72. I mean you can't believe how tall they are because you see him
how tall they are because you see him playing basketball and they all are
playing basketball and they all are tall, right? No, no, no. You get him in
tall, right? No, no, no. You get him in a room.
a room. >> Oh my goodness. So he's like 7'2 and and
>> Oh my goodness. So he's like 7'2 and and Mel Gibson's about I don't know 5'8
Mel Gibson's about I don't know 5'8 maybe 5'7. He's not tall at all. And I
maybe 5'7. He's not tall at all. And I have this picture and Kareem is bent
have this picture and Kareem is bent down trying to hear and and and Mel is
down trying to hear and and and Mel is looking up trying to talk to Kareem.
looking up trying to talk to Kareem. It's a hilarious picture. But um did he
It's a hilarious picture. But um did he convert? You know Kareem is still on a
convert? You know Kareem is still on a journey. I think he's still asking
journey. I think he's still asking questions. I think he's doing what a
questions. I think he's doing what a smart person does. Ask questions. He was
smart person does. Ask questions. He was willing to come to my home and listen to
willing to come to my home and listen to me and we I came to his place and we
me and we I came to his place and we talked for hour all afternoon about why
talked for hour all afternoon about why I believe Christianity is true and he
I believe Christianity is true and he told me why he believes Islam is true
told me why he believes Islam is true and we we didn't debate but we had a
and we we didn't debate but we had a friendly conversation and that's good.
friendly conversation and that's good. That's that's healthy.
That's that's healthy. >> Yeah.
>> Yeah. >> And um I believe he's still on a
>> And um I believe he's still on a journey.
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What are what are some of the major questions that somebody that's on the
questions that somebody that's on the fence of of
fence of of you know Islam or Christianity? Yeah,
you know Islam or Christianity? Yeah, >> the guy that I was it's not Kareem Abdul
>> the guy that I was it's not Kareem Abdul Jabar. I don't know I can't remember his
Jabar. I don't know I can't remember his name. He's basically a book where he's
name. He's basically a book where he's talking about
talking about >> the Quran or the Bible sold a ton of
>> the Quran or the Bible sold a ton of copies. I can't remember the it just
copies. I can't remember the it just popped up on and I was like this looks
popped up on and I was like this looks like an interesting interview.
like an interesting interview. >> Yeah. I had a good friend named K um um
>> Yeah. I had a good friend named K um um Nibil Keshi who was a Muslim who did
Nibil Keshi who was a Muslim who did what I did researched Christianity
what I did researched Christianity became a Christian wrote a wonderful
became a Christian wrote a wonderful book if anybody wants to really delve
book if anybody wants to really delve into what is the contrast between Islam
into what is the contrast between Islam and Christianity um he wrote a book
and Christianity um he wrote a book called um seeking Allah and finding
called um seeking Allah and finding Jesus and um he died a few years ago I
Jesus and um he died a few years ago I was with Adam at his bedside just before
was with Adam at his bedside just before he passed. Um, a great great man, young
he passed. Um, a great great man, young guy, medical doctor by profession. And
guy, medical doctor by profession. And um, but he did the research and and
um, but he did the research and and converted from Christianity. One of the
converted from Christianity. One of the things he told me, he said it was
things he told me, he said it was interesting. He said, you know, Lee,
interesting. He said, you know, Lee, there are 99 names for God in Islam, for
there are 99 names for God in Islam, for Allah. 99 names. Not one of them is
Allah. 99 names. Not one of them is father.
And yet in the Bible, how is Jesus taught to pray?
taught to pray? Our father, this this f the godhood, the
Our father, this this f the godhood, the Yeah, it is our our father who art in
Yeah, it is our our father who art in heaven. Um that summarizes things more
heaven. Um that summarizes things more than any single fact I know that the God
than any single fact I know that the God of the Allah is not the same as a God of
of the Allah is not the same as a God of the Bible. He's never called father in
the Bible. He's never called father in the Quran.
the Quran. God is referred to father in his picture
God is referred to father in his picture and and presented as father in the
and and presented as father in the Bible. There's a big contrast there.
Bible. There's a big contrast there. >> Interesting.
>> Interesting. >> So um but um yeah, so I'm I'm no scholar
>> So um but um yeah, so I'm I'm no scholar on Islam, but I have the read the Quran.
on Islam, but I have the read the Quran. I have had many conversations with with
I have had many conversations with with Muslims. I love I love them. I know God
Muslims. I love I love them. I know God loves them, too. And uh but I you know,
loves them, too. And uh but I you know, these two things cannot be true at the
these two things cannot be true at the same time. Mhm.
same time. Mhm. >> They can't be. They are logically
>> They can't be. They are logically incompatible. So, you either have to
incompatible. So, you either have to believe that one of them is true or
believe that one of them is true or neither of them are true.
neither of them are true. And that's the quest that I think we're
And that's the quest that I think we're all on.
all on. >> Yeah. What
>> Yeah. What What was Jesus's communication with the
What was Jesus's communication with the father? How how was he communicating
father? How how was he communicating differently than everybody else?
differently than everybody else? >> Yeah. He he prayed and you know, he
>> Yeah. He he prayed and you know, he taught the disciples how to pray. The
taught the disciples how to pray. The Lord's prayer. this beautiful prayer
Lord's prayer. this beautiful prayer that he taught, you know, when you pray,
that he taught, you know, when you pray, pray our father or and he he used a very
pray our father or and he he used a very intimate word there um in the um Aramaic
intimate word there um in the um Aramaic um abba, which is a very it's not just
um abba, which is a very it's not just father, distant father. It's it's a more
father, distant father. It's it's a more intimate term for a dad. Um it's what I
intimate term for a dad. Um it's what I would call my dad, Aba. Um, and and
would call my dad, Aba. Um, and and Jesus taught his followers,
Jesus taught his followers, say, "Aba, father." I mean, this rocked
say, "Aba, father." I mean, this rocked their world. This is the Yahweh. This is
their world. This is the Yahweh. This is the God whose name you didn't even write
the God whose name you didn't even write because you're so fearful that you're
because you're so fearful that you're going to spell it wrong or something.
going to spell it wrong or something. And and really, we're to call him, Abba.
And and really, we're to call him, Abba. But, I mean, it just transformed
But, I mean, it just transformed everybody's thinking about God. And um
everybody's thinking about God. And um um and yet, you don't see that in other
um and yet, you don't see that in other religions. You don't see that in other
religions. You don't see that in other faiths. Um that's a uniqueness of
faiths. Um that's a uniqueness of Christianity.
Christianity. >> So the one thing the one thing that gets
>> So the one thing the one thing that gets me that that I find myself thinking
me that that I find myself thinking about quite a bit is you know G is Jesus
about quite a bit is you know G is Jesus is
is forgive my uses of words I'll probably
forgive my uses of words I'll probably butcher this. Jesus is an extension of
butcher this. Jesus is an extension of God. It's one and the same thing.
God. It's one and the same thing. >> But Jesus also lived on earth as human.
>> But Jesus also lived on earth as human. Yes. you know, supposedly had all the
Yes. you know, supposedly had all the same temptations, the same suffering, if
same temptations, the same suffering, if more suffering, you know, basically
more suffering, you know, basically >> he ate the same sit sandwich that
>> he ate the same sit sandwich that we all eat, you know, going through
we all eat, you know, going through life.
life. >> Worse than you and me, for sure.
>> Worse than you and me, for sure. >> But but but you know, but his his he had
>> But but but you know, but his his he had to he he had to have had that direct
to he he had to have had that direct connection. Yeah.
connection. Yeah. >> That that we
>> That that we either don't have or can't figure out
either don't have or can't figure out how to access a lot of times. Well, it's
how to access a lot of times. Well, it's some good points. Um, he is Jesus is
some good points. Um, he is Jesus is fully God and fully man. So, we have the
fully God and fully man. So, we have the Godhead, God the Father, God the Son,
Godhead, God the Father, God the Son, God the Holy Spirit, who existed from
God the Holy Spirit, who existed from eternity past in this perfect love
eternity past in this perfect love relationship.
relationship. >> Um, uh, and so God um, the son comes
>> Um, uh, and so God um, the son comes into our world, becomes fully God and
into our world, becomes fully God and fully man. And as you say, he lives
fully man. And as you say, he lives among us. He's w I mean, he lived a
among us. He's w I mean, he lived a harder life than you and I. we, you
harder life than you and I. we, you know, uh, and, um, the Bible says,
know, uh, and, um, the Bible says, interestingly, there's a verse, I
interestingly, there's a verse, I believe it's in Hebrews, that says that
believe it's in Hebrews, that says that Jesus learned obedience through
Jesus learned obedience through suffering.
suffering. So, he had to even learn how to be
So, he had to even learn how to be obedient to the father through the
obedient to the father through the suffering that he went through. I
suffering that he went through. I thought that was interesting because we
thought that was interesting because we go through go through suffering and yet
go through go through suffering and yet we can learn from that how to be
we can learn from that how to be obedient to God. But um so he's fully
obedient to God. But um so he's fully God. He's fully man. He was he he he he
God. He's fully man. He was he he he he was tempted and yet the Bible says and
was tempted and yet the Bible says and yet without sin. So he he he felt
yet without sin. So he he he felt emotions as we feel them, but he not to
emotions as we feel them, but he not to the extent that he was ever sinful with
the extent that he was ever sinful with those. How that works out, I don't know.
those. How that works out, I don't know. I'm going to ask him someday.
I'm going to ask him someday. >> Do you think about that though? I mean,
>> Do you think about that though? I mean, if
if >> I do sometimes. Yeah. I mean, if he has
>> I do sometimes. Yeah. I mean, if he has the
This is probably really dumb of me to try to compare, you know, what what he
try to compare, you know, what what he was going through to what we're going
was going through to what we're going through. I know I know it it doesn't
through. I know I know it it doesn't make sense. I'll probably get
make sense. I'll probably get >> probably get probably all kinds of
>> probably get probably all kinds of comments coming,
comments coming, >> but you know, but I'm I'm trying to
>> but you know, but I'm I'm trying to understand. Sure.
understand. Sure. >> And so, you know, when he had I mean,
>> And so, you know, when he had I mean, when he was born,
when he was born, >> Yeah.
>> Yeah. >> how did he know who his dad is? Yeah. I
>> how did he know who his dad is? Yeah. I mean, how I mean, he his faith was so
mean, how I mean, he his faith was so much stronger than any of ours, than
much stronger than any of ours, than mine, at least
mine, at least >> that that that
>> that that that >> Do you know what I'm saying? So,
>> Do you know what I'm saying? So, >> was it Yes.
>> was it Yes. >> undeniable much more suffering than I'll
>> undeniable much more suffering than I'll hopefully ever have to endure or any of
hopefully ever have to endure or any of us. But you know the fa his faith was so
us. But you know the fa his faith was so much stronger than than than
much stronger than than than mine probably than your you know than
mine probably than your you know than anybody else that it's it's
anybody else that it's it's >> I mean he he
>> I mean he he >> he knew it as fact.
>> he knew it as fact. >> Yeah he knew it
>> Yeah he knew it >> knew it is fact.
>> knew it is fact. >> That's a good way to put a direct
>> That's a good way to put a direct connect.
connect. >> You know there's a passage in um
>> You know there's a passage in um Philippians in the New Testament chapter
Philippians in the New Testament chapter 2 that may be the earliest Christmas
2 that may be the earliest Christmas carol. I think it was, it may be a hymn
carol. I think it was, it may be a hymn of the earliest church, but it talks
of the earliest church, but it talks about how Jesus was in heaven, but he
about how Jesus was in heaven, but he didn't cling to the perks of being in
didn't cling to the perks of being in heaven. And he gave that up to come into
heaven. And he gave that up to come into our world. And and it says even to the
our world. And and it says even to the point of dying on the cross. So Jesus
point of dying on the cross. So Jesus pre-existed from eternity past. He has
pre-existed from eternity past. He has the he is God. How much did he know as a
the he is God. How much did he know as a baby?
baby? How much did he have to learn? When did
How much did he have to learn? When did he really realize who he was?
he really realize who he was? >> Those are good.
>> Those are good. >> He had to tell him he had a direct
>> He had to tell him he had a direct connection. These are good questions.
connection. These are good questions. >> Kind of what I'm getting at, Lee, is is
>> Kind of what I'm getting at, Lee, is is >> how do we connect that way?
>> how do we connect that way? >> How do we how do how Okay, let me just
>> How do we how do how Okay, let me just >> If you
We see all these Christians being slaughtered in Syria.
slaughtered in Syria. >> Yeah.
>> Yeah. >> Right.
>> Right. They're going off. Let's say you let's
They're going off. Let's say you let's I'm just going to put you in a really
I'm just going to put you in a really messed up situation. You know, do you
messed up situation. You know, do you believe in Jesus Christ or do you not?
believe in Jesus Christ or do you not? And if you do not if you do not denounce
And if you do not if you do not denounce him right now, you are going to suffer.
him right now, you are going to suffer. I mean, I think about this all the time
I mean, I think about this all the time because
because >> yes,
>> yes, >> it's happening. It's just not happening
>> it's happening. It's just not happening in this country. Yes. you know, and so
in this country. Yes. you know, and so when you're looking down the barrel of a
when you're looking down the barrel of a rifle or a cross that you're going to be
rifle or a cross that you're going to be crucified on or a blade that they're
crucified on or a blade that they're going to chop your head off with, if you
going to chop your head off with, if you don't I mean, that's a very, you know,
don't I mean, that's a very, you know, you can sit here and and go, "Wow,
you can sit here and and go, "Wow, >> yeah,
>> yeah, >> of course I'm not going to do it."
>> of course I'm not going to do it." >> It's a lot different than being on your
>> It's a lot different than being on your knees in front of somebody that's going
knees in front of somebody that's going to chop your head off.
to chop your head off. >> Yes. you know, and and but so kind of
>> Yes. you know, and and but so kind of what I'm getting at is if that were to
what I'm getting at is if that were to happen to me and you to me or you, we
happen to me and you to me or you, we are only going off of faith. We do not
are only going off of faith. We do not know that as fact.
know that as fact. >> Yeah.
>> Yeah. >> Jesus knew that as fact because he had
>> Jesus knew that as fact because he had some type of a direct connection. So did
some type of a direct connection. So did he
he >> was he going through the same thing as
>> was he going through the same thing as us? Because he knows what's on the other
us? Because he knows what's on the other side of that. He knew what's
side of that. He knew what's >> we don't really know. There's a lot of
>> we don't really know. There's a lot of theories about this. uh to what degree
theories about this. uh to what degree he knew what he knew when he knew it.
he knew what he knew when he knew it. You know, when he's 5 years old, did he
You know, when he's 5 years old, did he understand he was the savior of the
understand he was the savior of the world? Did he did he know all the things
world? Did he did he know all the things he knew as God at 5 years old? Could he
he knew as God at 5 years old? Could he speak every language on the planet at 5
speak every language on the planet at 5 years old? I don't know.
years old? I don't know. >> Um we don't we're not told a lot of this
>> Um we don't we're not told a lot of this stuff. We do know he had a special, as
stuff. We do know he had a special, as you say, a connection with God in the
you say, a connection with God in the sense that he was willing to go to the
sense that he was willing to go to the cross, not because he had a pretty good
cross, not because he had a pretty good idea that it was all going to work out.
idea that it was all going to work out. He knew the truth. He knew cuz he is the
He knew the truth. He knew cuz he is the truth. And he's described in scripture
truth. And he's described in scripture being the truth, the way and the life
being the truth, the way and the life and no one comes the father except
and no one comes the father except through him. So he had that intimate
through him. So he had that intimate understanding that he is God, that the
understanding that he is God, that the father is God, the Holy Spirit is God.
father is God, the Holy Spirit is God. He knew that and knowing that he was
He knew that and knowing that he was willing to die for it. We can't know it
willing to die for it. We can't know it as certainly as he did,
as certainly as he did, >> but we can know it with confidence. We
>> but we can know it with confidence. We can we can you know and here's why.
can we can you know and here's why. Is there faith involved? Yes, of course.
Is there faith involved? Yes, of course. But it is a faith that is a step in the
But it is a faith that is a step in the same direction the evidence is pointing.
same direction the evidence is pointing. In other words, there are about 20 lines
In other words, there are about 20 lines of evidence through archaeology, through
of evidence through archaeology, through ancient history, through fulfillment of
ancient history, through fulfillment of prophecies, through all the reliability
prophecies, through all the reliability of the gospels, through all these
of the gospels, through all these things. There about 20 different lines
things. There about 20 different lines of evidence that point in the direction
of evidence that point in the direction of Christianity being true. They're
of Christianity being true. They're arrows. They point that way.
arrows. They point that way. But it's not enough just to know that
But it's not enough just to know that >> because the Bible says in John 1:12, "As
>> because the Bible says in John 1:12, "As many as received him, to them he gave
many as received him, to them he gave the right to become children of God,
the right to become children of God, even to those who believed in his name."
even to those who believed in his name." So the formula is believe
So the formula is believe equals become. So you can believe that
equals become. So you can believe that all this evidence points in the
all this evidence points in the direction of Jesus being the unique son
direction of Jesus being the unique son of God who offers to forgive our sins
of God who offers to forgive our sins and spend eternity with us in heaven.
and spend eternity with us in heaven. You can believe that. But even the
You can believe that. But even the demons believe that and they shudder at
demons believe that and they shudder at the implications.
the implications. You have to take a step of faith, but
You have to take a step of faith, but it's in the same direction the evidence
it's in the same direction the evidence is pointing. That's logical. That's
is pointing. That's logical. That's rational. We do that every day of our
rational. We do that every day of our life. When we take that step of faith
life. When we take that step of faith and we receive that free gift of
and we receive that free gift of forgiveness and eternal life through
forgiveness and eternal life through Jesus Christ, we become adopted as his
Jesus Christ, we become adopted as his son or daughter forever. The Holy Spirit
son or daughter forever. The Holy Spirit takes up residence inside of us and will
takes up residence inside of us and will give us over time increasing confidence
give us over time increasing confidence and awareness of our relationship with
and awareness of our relationship with God, which we then build through reading
God, which we then build through reading the word of God, reading the Bible,
the word of God, reading the Bible, which is what he wants us to know. So,
which is what he wants us to know. So, you know, we say, "I wish God would talk
you know, we say, "I wish God would talk to me. Here's 800,000 words." Yeah, he's
to me. Here's 800,000 words." Yeah, he's talked to us. Read that. Uh, so the
talked to us. Read that. Uh, so the Bible helps us understand who God is.
Bible helps us understand who God is. God is. And then to pray to I mean you
God is. And then to pray to I mean you start out very haltingly very h God I
start out very haltingly very h God I hope you're there. I hope you hear me.
hope you're there. I hope you hear me. You know but as you grow and mature in
You know but as you grow and mature in your faith you begin to realize no God
your faith you begin to realize no God is there. God is real. I've seen
is there. God is real. I've seen evidence of it in my life. I've seen him
evidence of it in my life. I've seen him do things in my life that I cannot
do things in my life that I cannot explain naturalistically.
explain naturalistically. And it gives me confidence. And when I
And it gives me confidence. And when I pray he's listening. And it builds your
pray he's listening. And it builds your faith. It encourages you. And it gets to
faith. It encourages you. And it gets to the point where even the the disciples,
the point where even the the disciples, they were willing to die for their
they were willing to die for their conviction that Jesus is the unique son
conviction that Jesus is the unique son of God who proved it by returning from
of God who proved it by returning from the dead.
the dead. >> We don't know how all the disciples
>> We don't know how all the disciples ended up dying. That gets a little lost
ended up dying. That gets a little lost in history, but their willingness to die
in history, but their willingness to die for that conviction is well established
for that conviction is well established by uh seven ancient sources inside and
by uh seven ancient sources inside and outside the Bible. So they became
outside the Bible. So they became convinced it was true because they
convinced it was true because they talked to the resurrected Jesus. They
talked to the resurrected Jesus. They ate with him. They experienced him. And
ate with him. They experienced him. And knowing it was true, they were willing
knowing it was true, they were willing to die for that conviction. Well, we
to die for that conviction. Well, we meet Jesus in a
meet Jesus in a not a well not a physical way as they
not a well not a physical way as they did, but we meet him when we receive him
did, but we meet him when we receive him as our forgiver and as our leader. And
as our forgiver and as our leader. And the Holy Spirit takes up resonance in
the Holy Spirit takes up resonance in us. We begin a relationship with him. We
us. We begin a relationship with him. We listen to him through his word. We speak
listen to him through his word. We speak to him through our prayer. We watch his
to him through our prayer. We watch his interactions with us. Things he does in
interactions with us. Things he does in our life that we can't explain away.
our life that we can't explain away. And it makes us stronger in our faith so
And it makes us stronger in our faith so that we grow to that point where maybe
that we grow to that point where maybe someday, maybe in this country someday,
someday, maybe in this country someday, we will be persecuted for our faith.
we will be persecuted for our faith. And then that's a test. Will we stand up
And then that's a test. Will we stand up for what we believe and know is true?
for what we believe and know is true? Um, I hope so. But I've seen things in
Um, I hope so. But I've seen things in my life
my life I I can't explain them other than God
I I can't explain them other than God was interacting with me and that gives
was interacting with me and that gives me conf. I'll give you an example. I'm a
me conf. I'll give you an example. I'm a pretty new Christian. I left behind my
pretty new Christian. I left behind my whole my whole career that I spent my
whole my whole career that I spent my life building legal editor of the
life building legal editor of the Chicago Tribune. You know, degree in
Chicago Tribune. You know, degree in law, degree in journalism. It's all I
law, degree in journalism. It's all I had done, all I ever wanted to do. And
had done, all I ever wanted to do. And then I felt God saying, "You know what?
then I felt God saying, "You know what? Give it up. Go join a staff of this
Give it up. Go join a staff of this church. Take a 60% pay cut
church. Take a 60% pay cut and live for me full-time."
and live for me full-time." Okay. So, we did. So, Lesie and I are
Okay. So, we did. So, Lesie and I are living a very frugal life um on the
living a very frugal life um on the staff of this church. And one day
staff of this church. And one day I'm praying
I'm praying and this happens as you mature in your
and this happens as you mature in your prayer life. You sometimes you sense God
prayer life. You sometimes you sense God leading you s sometimes you sense him
leading you s sometimes you sense him pointing you in a direction and you
pointing you in a direction and you always have to test it against the
always have to test it against the Bible. Is it consistent? Is it true?
Bible. Is it consistent? Is it true? Maybe he's pointing me toward a verse in
Maybe he's pointing me toward a verse in the Bible. But I'm praying and I never
the Bible. But I'm praying and I never felt this but I felt like and I know
felt this but I felt like and I know this sounds crazy. We only had $500 to
this sounds crazy. We only had $500 to our name. We had one bank account, 500
our name. We had one bank account, 500 bucks. And I felt like God was saying to
bucks. And I felt like God was saying to me, Lee, I want you to empty your bank
me, Lee, I want you to empty your bank account and write an anonymous cashier's
account and write an anonymous cashier's check and send it to this woman who's
check and send it to this woman who's part of the church on Friday afternoon.
part of the church on Friday afternoon. Make sure Pace Post Office Friday
Make sure Pace Post Office Friday afternoon. Send it to her.
afternoon. Send it to her. Time out here. Um, that's all I got. I
Time out here. Um, that's all I got. I mean, I said to Lesie, Leslie, would you
mean, I said to Lesie, Leslie, would you pray with me about this cuz I'm sensing
pray with me about this cuz I'm sensing this and I'm not kind of happy about
this and I'm not kind of happy about where it's taken me, but if this is from
where it's taken me, but if this is from God, we need to do it. So, Lesie and I
God, we need to do it. So, Lesie and I pray together. She said, "Honey, I'm
pray together. She said, "Honey, I'm feeling the same thing."
feeling the same thing." Okay. So, we go to the bank, we get all
Okay. So, we go to the bank, we get all of our money, we get an anonymous
of our money, we get an anonymous cashier's check, and Friday afternoon,
cashier's check, and Friday afternoon, we go to the post office and we mail it
we go to the post office and we mail it to that woman.
to that woman. Monday morning before mail delivery that
Monday morning before mail delivery that day, the phone rings. This woman calls
day, the phone rings. This woman calls me.
me. She said, 'Le, she's crying. I said,
She said, 'Le, she's crying. I said, 'What? What's wrong, Maggie? Oh,
something terrible's happened. Whoa, whoa, whoa, slow down. What happened?
whoa, whoa, slow down. What happened? She said, my car broke down over the
She said, my car broke down over the weekend. If I don't have my car, I'm
weekend. If I don't have my car, I'm going to lose my job. I'm going to lose
going to lose my job. I'm going to lose my apartment. I I don't have any money.
my apartment. I I don't have any money. She said, it's going to cost $500 to fix
She said, it's going to cost $500 to fix my car. I don't have $500. I don't know
my car. I don't have $500. I don't know what to do. would you please pray for
what to do. would you please pray for me? I said, "Oh, Maggie, I'd be glad to
me? I said, "Oh, Maggie, I'd be glad to pray for you." So, I prayed that God
pray for you." So, I prayed that God would provide her that $500.
would provide her that $500. We hung up because I had mailed it that
We hung up because I had mailed it that Friday afternoon. Monday afternoon, the
Friday afternoon. Monday afternoon, the mail comes. She opens the mail and
mail comes. She opens the mail and there's a anonymous check to cover the
there's a anonymous check to cover the cost of her car. Now, God could have
cost of her car. Now, God could have intervened so her car didn't break down,
intervened so her car didn't break down, but then we wouldn't know the joy of
but then we wouldn't know the joy of being the answer to someone's prayers.
being the answer to someone's prayers. That built my faith that was it a
That built my faith that was it a miracle? I don't know if it was or not.
miracle? I don't know if it was or not. I'm just saying um it built my faith
I'm just saying um it built my faith that God could have done that. But no,
that God could have done that. But no, then you wouldn't know the joy and how
then you wouldn't know the joy and how wonderful it felt. To this day, she
wonderful it felt. To this day, she doesn't know. Well, now if she listens
doesn't know. Well, now if she listens to your podcast, she's going to know.
to your podcast, she's going to know. But
But but she doesn't know it was us. Doesn't
but she doesn't know it was us. Doesn't matter that it was us. What matters is
matter that it was us. What matters is God loves her. And she was a new
God loves her. And she was a new believer. She had a terrible childhood.
believer. She had a terrible childhood. She had given up on Christianity, but we
She had given up on Christianity, but we did a debate at our church between a
did a debate at our church between a Christian and an atheist. She came to
Christian and an atheist. She came to the debate. She came to faith in Christ
the debate. She came to faith in Christ because of that debate and later
because of that debate and later teachings that she received. And um she
teachings that she received. And um she later quit her job as a nurse, took a
later quit her job as a nurse, took a big pay cut, joined the staff of our
big pay cut, joined the staff of our church, and she was the one who would
church, and she was the one who would deliver my mail uh every day in the
deliver my mail uh every day in the church at the staff office. And to this
church at the staff office. And to this day, she doesn't know that God led us to
day, she doesn't know that God led us to help her out. But that's how God works.
help her out. But that's how God works. Did that deepen my faith? Yeah. Did that
Did that deepen my faith? Yeah. Did that increase my confidence that God really
increase my confidence that God really is listening and orchestrating things
is listening and orchestrating things and knows things that I don't know and
and knows things that I don't know and wants me to do things that I may not get
wants me to do things that I may not get but he's got a plan. Yeah. So, will we
but he's got a plan. Yeah. So, will we get to the absolute knowledge that Jesus
get to the absolute knowledge that Jesus had? No. But I think we can get to a
had? No. But I think we can get to a strong, vibrant, robust faith that
strong, vibrant, robust faith that causes us even in the midst of
causes us even in the midst of persecution and even in the midst of
persecution and even in the midst of pain to continue to live for him. And
pain to continue to live for him. And you're seeing that throughout places
you're seeing that throughout places where people, as you say, are being
where people, as you say, are being beheaded for their faith today and they
beheaded for their faith today and they refuse to renounce it. Um because God is
refuse to renounce it. Um because God is real and Jesus is real.
real and Jesus is real. >> I love what you're saying, man. And I've
>> I love what you're saying, man. And I've had a lot of these encounters, too. I
had a lot of these encounters, too. I mean, I I I mean, that's
mean, I I I mean, that's it's how I came, too. You know what I
it's how I came, too. You know what I mean?
mean? When we very first spoke, and I was
When we very first spoke, and I was wrong. Christmas last year isn't the
wrong. Christmas last year isn't the first time we met. I think this is the
first time we met. I think this is the fourth time you've been on.
fourth time you've been on. >> Third time.
>> Third time. >> This is the third time. Yeah. Yeah.
>> This is the third time. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. What is What is the first time?
Okay. What is What is the first time? >> First time. And then John Burke and I
>> First time. And then John Burke and I did that one.
did that one. >> Okay.
>> Okay. >> Yeah.
>> Yeah. it some point in one of those interviews
it some point in one of those interviews I had I I believe I had talked to you
I had I I believe I had talked to you about um you know do you really believe
about um you know do you really believe do you ever have those thoughts in your
do you ever have those thoughts in your head do you really believe or you just
head do you really believe or you just telling yourself this stuff and
telling yourself this stuff and >> and I'm just being 100% honest with me
>> and I'm just being 100% honest with me you know it it it it
you know it it it it >> it's highs and lows man it is it looks
>> it's highs and lows man it is it looks like this I'm not really in the word oh
like this I'm not really in the word oh I'm really in the word you're not alone
I'm really in the word you're not alone >> I'm not really in it right
>> I'm not really in it right >> you know faith's going down do I really
>> you know faith's going down do I really believe in this stuff. Is this real?
believe in this stuff. Is this real? >> I don't know. And then something will
>> I don't know. And then something will happen. And but you what I really uh I
happen. And but you what I really uh I mean when you talk about I just haven't
mean when you talk about I just haven't figured out how to talk to him.
figured out how to talk to him. >> Yeah.
>> Yeah. >> And I don't trust what I'm hearing. I
>> And I don't trust what I'm hearing. I trust in in
trust in in >> affirmations maybe is what I'm But
>> affirmations maybe is what I'm But >> you know, I mean I could I could I have
>> you know, I mean I could I could I have a thought in my head right now. Yeah, I
a thought in my head right now. Yeah, I should sell the studio, everything that
should sell the studio, everything that I've built here and donate it all to
I've built here and donate it all to cancer.
cancer. >> Is that
>> Is that >> Yeah.
>> Yeah. >> Is that from him or am I just coming up
>> Is that from him or am I just coming up with
with >> Yeah. And this is so important to And
>> Yeah. And this is so important to And you know, you haven't been a Christian
you know, you haven't been a Christian that long. So, you know, you're on a
that long. So, you know, you're on a pathway. You're you know, we come to
pathway. You're you know, we come to faith and then we grow. And
faith and then we grow. And so, justification is the theological
so, justification is the theological word. When we receive Jesus, we're quote
word. When we receive Jesus, we're quote unquote born again. and he he's adopts
unquote born again. and he he's adopts us into his family. We're indwwellled by
us into his family. We're indwwellled by the Holy Spirit and then there's a
the Holy Spirit and then there's a period of sanctification where we grow
period of sanctification where we grow in our faith. Um, and it's it's two
in our faith. Um, and it's it's two steps forward and one step back a lot of
steps forward and one step back a lot of times, but I've been a Christian now
times, but I've been a Christian now since 3:00 in the afternoon on November
since 3:00 in the afternoon on November the 8th of 1981. So, I got a few years
the 8th of 1981. So, I got a few years on you, you know. So, you know, it's not
on you, you know. So, you know, it's not unusual to have those ups and downs by
unusual to have those ups and downs by any means, but we have to, you know, the
any means, but we have to, you know, the Bible says, "Test the spirits." Test the
Bible says, "Test the spirits." Test the spirits. How do we do that? We test
spirits. How do we do that? We test things when we feel like God, like when
things when we feel like God, like when I felt like God was telling me to leave
I felt like God was telling me to leave my entire career, everything I studied
my entire career, everything I studied for and dreamt about and I was
for and dreamt about and I was succeeding to leave that behind and join
succeeding to leave that behind and join a church at 60% pa and people were
a church at 60% pa and people were telling me, "You're nuts. You're you
telling me, "You're nuts. You're you can't put your kids through college. You
can't put your kids through college. You can not make enough money to live on.
can not make enough money to live on. What? How? What are you nuts?" Um what
What? How? What are you nuts?" Um what what did I look for? I looked for a I
what did I look for? I looked for a I prayed and say God if I'm
prayed and say God if I'm misunderstanding
misunderstanding then let tell me put signs in my
then let tell me put signs in my communicate to me because I'm about to
communicate to me because I'm about to make a big step here you know and so I I
make a big step here you know and so I I I asked God to head me off if I'm
I asked God to head me off if I'm reading things wrong. Importantly I had
reading things wrong. Importantly I had strong Christians in my life. my best
strong Christians in my life. my best friend Mark Middberg and others who um
friend Mark Middberg and others who um uh know me better than anybody. Um he
uh know me better than anybody. Um he knows every sin in my life. He knows
knows every sin in my life. He knows every good thing in my life. He Mark and
every good thing in my life. He Mark and I are we're joined at the brain and um I
I are we're joined at the brain and um I love him like a brother and the Bible
love him like a brother and the Bible says that. So they're believers. We're
says that. So they're believers. We're going to love like a brother. Um, and I
going to love like a brother. Um, and I love Mark like a brother and I know
love Mark like a brother and I know everything about him and he knows
everything about him and he knows everything about me. And we're totally
everything about me. And we're totally honest with each other and we pray for
honest with each other and we pray for each other. We encourage each other. I
each other. We encourage each other. I say, "I believe in you, Mark, more than
say, "I believe in you, Mark, more than you believe in yourself." And he said,
you believe in yourself." And he said, "Le, same thing with you. I believe in
"Le, same thing with you. I believe in you even though you doubt yourself half
you even though you doubt yourself half the time." So, we've got this great
the time." So, we've got this great relationship and and when I sense God
relationship and and when I sense God taking me down a path and I wonder if
taking me down a path and I wonder if it's right, if it's true, first thing I
it's right, if it's true, first thing I want to see is read, let's check the
want to see is read, let's check the Bible. Is this contrary to the word of
Bible. Is this contrary to the word of God? Is he telling me to do something
God? Is he telling me to do something that's clearly not biblical? Um,
that's clearly not biblical? Um, secondly, what are my committed
secondly, what are my committed Christian friends saying? I ask them to
Christian friends saying? I ask them to pray. Pray and see what God says to you.
pray. Pray and see what God says to you. is do you get a consistent message that
is do you get a consistent message that I'm getting? And and so I take a lot of
I'm getting? And and so I take a lot of that's why I think it's really important
that's why I think it's really important for Christians to have a small group
for Christians to have a small group relationship with a couple of other
relationship with a couple of other guys. Uh people of the same gender,
guys. Uh people of the same gender, people you can go deep with, people you
people you can go deep with, people you can hang out and be honest with. And
can hang out and be honest with. And when things like this come up, whatever
when things like this come up, whatever it is, I'm doubting. I have a question
it is, I'm doubting. I have a question about this or whatever, say, "Hey guys,
about this or whatever, say, "Hey guys, I don't know what to do with this. I'm
I don't know what to do with this. I'm sensing God is telling me to do this.
sensing God is telling me to do this. What What do you think?" Well, sounds a
What What do you think?" Well, sounds a little crazy to us. Um, here's why I
little crazy to us. Um, here's why I don't think it stacks up the scripture.
don't think it stacks up the scripture. Or here's why I don't I'm not sensing
Or here's why I don't I'm not sensing the same thing. I mean, there's these
the same thing. I mean, there's these yellow flags that go up.
yellow flags that go up. >> I've had that happen many times when I'm
>> I've had that happen many times when I'm thinking God wants me to do X, Y, and Z.
thinking God wants me to do X, Y, and Z. I remember once I had, as a fairly young
I remember once I had, as a fairly young Christian, I was offered a national
Christian, I was offered a national radio show. I would have had to left my
radio show. I would have had to left my ministry at that church. And um I
ministry at that church. And um I thought, "This is a great opportunity.
thought, "This is a great opportunity. National show. My goodness. And um I did
National show. My goodness. And um I did the audition. Yes. Want to hire you. And
the audition. Yes. Want to hire you. And uh I went to my friends and they prayed
uh I went to my friends and they prayed and said, "I don't think that's what God
and said, "I don't think that's what God wants you to do." Honestly, don't. It's
wants you to do." Honestly, don't. It's a great opportunity for somebody. I
a great opportunity for somebody. I don't think it's for you. And they were
don't think it's for you. And they were right. Looking back would have been the
right. Looking back would have been the worst thing I could have done. Um but I
worst thing I could have done. Um but I didn't know, but I thought it I was
didn't know, but I thought it I was tempted by it.
tempted by it. >> So those are the kind of checks and
>> So those are the kind of checks and balances I think we need to have. And it
balances I think we need to have. And it takes time. I had a small group of guys
takes time. I had a small group of guys and we get together on Saturday morning
and we get together on Saturday morning and we just scratched the surface. Hey,
and we just scratched the surface. Hey, how about the Bears? We're in Chicago.
how about the Bears? We're in Chicago. How about the Yeah, Bears, great. How
How about the Yeah, Bears, great. How about the Cubbies? Oh, man. They traded.
about the Cubbies? Oh, man. They traded. Oh, that was bad. And we talk, you know,
Oh, that was bad. And we talk, you know, and we go around the room and saying,
and we go around the room and saying, "What's new in our life?" And we were we
"What's new in our life?" And we were we were just scratching the surface until
were just scratching the surface until one day
one day we're going around the room talking
we're going around the room talking about prayer requests and, yeah, pray
about prayer requests and, yeah, pray for this, pray for that. And the guy
for this, pray for that. And the guy next to me breaks into tears.
next to me breaks into tears. and he says,
and he says, "My mar my marriage is breaking up.
"My mar my marriage is breaking up. I think my wife and I are going to
I think my wife and I are going to split. I don't know what to do. I don't
split. I don't know what to do. I don't know where to go, guys. I I'm
know where to go, guys. I I'm desperate." And he began to cry.
desperate." And he began to cry. That was the breakthrough that our group
That was the breakthrough that our group needed. We never scratched the surface
needed. We never scratched the surface again because what did we do? We got
again because what did we do? We got around our brother and put our arms
around our brother and put our arms around him and we prayed for him and we
around him and we prayed for him and we counseledled him and we encouraged him
counseledled him and we encouraged him and we walked him through that difficult
and we walked him through that difficult time in his marriage and it came out
time in his marriage and it came out strong and he's fine today. But because
strong and he's fine today. But because he was willing among brothers or
he was willing among brothers or sisters, among brothers in Christ to be
sisters, among brothers in Christ to be honest about suffering that he was going
honest about suffering that he was going through and and doubts that he was
through and and doubts that he was having about faith and so forth
having about faith and so forth to go deep and and get around it. So we
to go deep and and get around it. So we need that in our life. My wife's got it.
need that in our life. My wife's got it. She's got a friend who who led her to
She's got a friend who who led her to the Lord. um you know you know all those
the Lord. um you know you know all those years ago 1980s and is still a good
years ago 1980s and is still a good friend and still a good guide and and
friend and still a good guide and and counsel and um when I was a atheist and
counsel and um when I was a atheist and my wife was a Christian and our marriage
my wife was a Christian and our marriage was on the rocks as a result her friend
was on the rocks as a result her friend counseledled her and encouraged her and
counseledled her and encouraged her and prayed with her and kept her positive
prayed with her and kept her positive and that's what kept our marriage
and that's what kept our marriage together. So, I think we we we go to the
together. So, I think we we we go to the word of God. We we deal with people in
word of God. We we deal with people in our life who are strong believers. We
our life who are strong believers. We pray with them. We we we test the
pray with them. We we we test the spirits as best we can to determine is
spirits as best we can to determine is this where God's leading us. And that's
this where God's leading us. And that's how I think we get direction. And and as
how I think we get direction. And and as you say, it's like this a lot of times.
you say, it's like this a lot of times. I mean, I can think of times in my life
I mean, I can think of times in my life where my faith was, oh my gosh, it's
where my faith was, oh my gosh, it's it's on the rocks and I have to keep
it's on the rocks and I have to keep coming back. For me, because I tend to
coming back. For me, because I tend to be a rational guy, I need to come back
be a rational guy, I need to come back to the evidence. Oh yeah, I remember
to the evidence. Oh yeah, I remember now. We got nine historical sources
now. We got nine historical sources right there from the earliest days that
right there from the earliest days that uh the disciples encountered the
uh the disciples encountered the resurrected Jesus who proved he's the
resurrected Jesus who proved he's the son of God. Oh yeah. Okay. I that's
son of God. Oh yeah. Okay. I that's right. I I forgot. Yep. I got the
right. I I forgot. Yep. I got the evidence. This is true. Sometimes I need
evidence. This is true. Sometimes I need that just as a rational guy. But um um
that just as a rational guy. But um um you know, we all go through those
you know, we all go through those periods.
periods. >> So I would say to anybody watching, you
>> So I would say to anybody watching, you know, if you're a believer,
know, if you're a believer, delve into scripture. Continue to to
delve into scripture. Continue to to soak that in. That is the word of God.
soak that in. That is the word of God. Why doesn't God talk to me? He is. He
Why doesn't God talk to me? He is. He is. There it is. Uh and then develop
is. There it is. Uh and then develop that one or two friends who you can
that one or two friends who you can really trust, who love you as much as
really trust, who love you as much as you love them, and who are deep in the
you love them, and who are deep in the word and who can be a sounding board.
word and who can be a sounding board. That's so important.
>> Thank you, Lee. >> Sure.
>> Sure. >> That's good.
>> That's good. Last question.
Last question. >> Yeah.
>> Yeah. >> You ready?
>> You ready? >> Uh-oh. I don't know. Can I take a drink
>> Uh-oh. I don't know. Can I take a drink of water? Do I need to hydrate?
of water? Do I need to hydrate? >> Who is the real Santa Claus?
>> Who is the real Santa Claus? >> Oh, that's a great question. Oh,
>> Oh, that's a great question. Oh, I'm so glad you asked that. And the
I'm so glad you asked that. And the reason is I get so many emails from
reason is I get so many emails from parents of young children saying, "What
parents of young children saying, "What do I tell my kids about Santa Claus?" I
do I tell my kids about Santa Claus?" I mean, and my answer is,
mean, and my answer is, you can encourage your Let's play with
you can encourage your Let's play with it. It's okay to to have fun with the
it. It's okay to to have fun with the idea of Santa Claus, to present him as a
idea of Santa Claus, to present him as a story, as a as a legend, as an idea. Um,
story, as a as a legend, as an idea. Um, you know, not real, but fun to think
you know, not real, but fun to think about and so forth. But then tell them
about and so forth. But then tell them about the real Santa Claus.
about the real Santa Claus. The real Santa Claus was a guy named
The real Santa Claus was a guy named Nicholas, St. Nick. He was born in 270
Nicholas, St. Nick. He was born in 270 AD, and he uh was born in Myra, Turkey.
AD, and he uh was born in Myra, Turkey. And he became a a Christian. He came
And he became a a Christian. He came from a wealthy family. Um, and he became
from a wealthy family. Um, and he became a bishop of an area on the coast of
a bishop of an area on the coast of Turkey. And he was the most generous
Turkey. And he was the most generous guy. Not only generous, but he was
guy. Not only generous, but he was sensitive to if I'm going to give you
sensitive to if I'm going to give you some money because you need it. I don't
some money because you need it. I don't want to do it in a way to embarrass you.
want to do it in a way to embarrass you. So, he would often leave gifts on
So, he would often leave gifts on people's doorstep so they'd find it in
people's doorstep so they'd find it in the morning uh or in a bush near their
the morning uh or in a bush near their house or something because he didn't
house or something because he didn't want to embarrass them. Um he was a man
want to embarrass them. Um he was a man of love and truth.
of love and truth. His love was shown by his great
His love was shown by his great generosity.
generosity. But he was a man of truth. He was
But he was a man of truth. He was imprisoned by the Romans and tortured
imprisoned by the Romans and tortured for his faith. In the year 325 AD he was
for his faith. In the year 325 AD he was a member of the council of Nika where he
a member of the council of Nika where he fought the uh heretic Aras who had
fought the uh heretic Aras who had heretical ideas and was trying to
heretical ideas and was trying to convince people of heretical ideas.
convince people of heretical ideas. There's a there's a legend that Nicholas
There's a there's a legend that Nicholas actually slapped Aras across the face.
actually slapped Aras across the face. That's probably not true. But he stood
That's probably not true. But he stood up for truth. He was a man of truth. And
up for truth. He was a man of truth. And when he died and was martyed for his
when he died and was martyed for his faith, I think it was on December the
faith, I think it was on December the 19th,
19th, um, a tradition began of giftgiving
um, a tradition began of giftgiving because he was such a giftgiver. That's
because he was such a giftgiver. That's what he he love. He gave away all his
what he he love. He gave away all his wealth. He was such a giftgiver. And
wealth. He was such a giftgiver. And people in remembrance of this St.
people in remembrance of this St. Nicholas would give people gifts. Martin
Nicholas would give people gifts. Martin Luther was the one who said, "Let's not
Luther was the one who said, "Let's not emphasize a saint. Let's move that
emphasize a saint. Let's move that giftgiving impulse to Christmas." It's
giftgiving impulse to Christmas." It's only just a few days later, December
only just a few days later, December 25th.
25th. And that's why we give gifts on
And that's why we give gifts on Christmas Day is because of St. Nicholas
Christmas Day is because of St. Nicholas and his giftgiving and uh how Martin
and his giftgiving and uh how Martin Luther kind of moved that to Christmas
Luther kind of moved that to Christmas Day just six days later. But here's a
Day just six days later. But here's a story about St. Nicholas, the real Santa
story about St. Nicholas, the real Santa Claus.
Claus. Now, granted, this comes from a
Now, granted, this comes from a biography of St. Nicholas. It was
biography of St. Nicholas. It was written 500 years after his life. So,
written 500 years after his life. So, how accurate it really is, we don't
how accurate it really is, we don't really know. But the story goes that
really know. But the story goes that back in those days, if you were a father
back in those days, if you were a father and you had three daughters, as this one
and you had three daughters, as this one guy did,
guy did, you would have to have a dowy to pay the
you would have to have a dowy to pay the family of someone to marry your
family of someone to marry your daughter. If you didn't have the money,
daughter. If you didn't have the money, the dowy, they couldn't get married. And
the dowy, they couldn't get married. And if they couldn't get married, they'd
if they couldn't get married, they'd probably end up in prostitution.
probably end up in prostitution. So in Nicholas's community was a man, he
So in Nicholas's community was a man, he lost his job. He he he he didn't have
lost his job. He he he he didn't have any money and he had three daughters. He
any money and he had three daughters. He didn't have the dowy. One of them was
didn't have the dowy. One of them was wanted to get married. He didn't have
wanted to get married. He didn't have the dowy. One day, St. Nicholas comes
the dowy. One day, St. Nicholas comes down the street. They lived on the
down the street. They lived on the second floor. He took a little bag of
second floor. He took a little bag of gold coins and threw it up into their
gold coins and threw it up into their window.
window. They find it. That's the dowy. She gets
They find it. That's the dowy. She gets married. She has his grandchildren for
married. She has his grandchildren for him. Everything's great. The second one
him. Everything's great. The second one comes time for her to get married. Don't
comes time for her to get married. Don't have a dowy any either. St. Nicholas
have a dowy any either. St. Nicholas comes by again with a bag of coins and
comes by again with a bag of coins and he tosses them up. She gets the money
he tosses them up. She gets the money for the dowy. She gets married. The
for the dowy. She gets married. The third one gets old enough to get
third one gets old enough to get married. St. Nicholas comes by. Well,
married. St. Nicholas comes by. Well, now the father's wondering what in the
now the father's wondering what in the world's going on, right? So, so he
world's going on, right? So, so he stakes things out. He's watching. He's
stakes things out. He's watching. He's outside. What is going on? So he's and
outside. What is going on? So he's and he catches Nicholas. He said, "What are
he catches Nicholas. He said, "What are you doing?" And Nicholas throws the
you doing?" And Nicholas throws the coins up and he says, "Just don't this
coins up and he says, "Just don't this is just between us. Don't tell anybody."
is just between us. Don't tell anybody." Um well, that made that story made its
Um well, that made that story made its way into Nicholas's biography. And
way into Nicholas's biography. And what's interesting is in medieval times,
what's interesting is in medieval times, medieval painters painted pictures of
medieval painters painted pictures of stockings hanging on the chimney.
stockings hanging on the chimney. And the idea was that maybe those three
And the idea was that maybe those three girls had stockings drying on the
girls had stockings drying on the chimney on the uh chimney in their room
chimney on the uh chimney in their room and the coins came up into the stockings
and the coins came up into the stockings and that's today why we put gifts in
and that's today why we put gifts in stockings.
stockings. >> Oh, okay.
>> Oh, okay. >> For our children.
>> For our children. >> What a cool.
>> What a cool. >> Now, Santa Claus himself later developed
>> Now, Santa Claus himself later developed mainly in the Netherlands. Fanciful
mainly in the Netherlands. Fanciful story um based on St. Nicholas, but it
story um based on St. Nicholas, but it got all jazzed up and so forth and and
got all jazzed up and so forth and and it was carried over into the American
it was carried over into the American colonies in the 1700s. They call him
colonies in the 1700s. They call him center claus in um Dutch. And um but the
center claus in um Dutch. And um but the most interesting thing about that is the
most interesting thing about that is the picture we see today of Santa Claus with
picture we see today of Santa Claus with the white beard with the red suit with
the white beard with the red suit with the hat with the glasses and everything.
the hat with the glasses and everything. You know where that comes from? In the
You know where that comes from? In the 1930s,
1930s, CocaCola Company did a big print
CocaCola Company did a big print campaign in magazines with color
campaign in magazines with color drawings of Santa Claus that looked that
drawings of Santa Claus that looked that way. And so, it's because of CocaCola
way. And so, it's because of CocaCola Company that today this is how we
Company that today this is how we picture Santa.
picture Santa. >> No kidding.
>> No kidding. >> Yes, that's right. So, you can take a
>> Yes, that's right. So, you can take a swig of Coke and thank them that that's
swig of Coke and thank them that that's where we got the picture of Santa Claus
where we got the picture of Santa Claus today.
today. >> Wow. That's weird.
>> Wow. That's weird. >> That's a good story. Wow. That's Thank
>> That's a good story. Wow. That's Thank you.
you. >> Yeah.
>> Yeah. >> Well, Lee,
>> Well, Lee, another great interview, man.
another great interview, man. >> Well, merry Christmas to you and your
>> Well, merry Christmas to you and your family, and I really mean that. I I I
family, and I really mean that. I I I pray that God is doing amazing things
pray that God is doing amazing things through you and through this this
through you and through this this amazing opportunity he's given you to
amazing opportunity he's given you to influence people all around the planet.
influence people all around the planet. And my prayer for you and for the folks
And my prayer for you and for the folks who work with you here is that God is
who work with you here is that God is going to use you in 2026 and beyond in
going to use you in 2026 and beyond in ways that you'll only understand in
ways that you'll only understand in heaven. that I told you about having
heaven. that I told you about having dinner last night in Paduca, Kentucky,
dinner last night in Paduca, Kentucky, and I was signing some books and a woman
and I was signing some books and a woman came up to me in tears with her husband
came up to me in tears with her husband and she said, "I just have to tell you,
and she said, "I just have to tell you, I listened to an interview that Shawn
I listened to an interview that Shawn Ryan did on his podcast with you and
Ryan did on his podcast with you and John Burke." And in tears, she said,
John Burke." And in tears, she said, "That was when I came to Faith in Jesus
"That was when I came to Faith in Jesus Christ." And I said, "I'm going to see
Christ." And I said, "I'm going to see Shawn tomorrow." And she says, "Oh,
Shawn tomorrow." And she says, "Oh, would you please tell him? Would you
would you please tell him? Would you please tell him? He changed my life.
please tell him? He changed my life. That podcast changed my life.
That podcast changed my life. My prayer is that will be multiplied
My prayer is that will be multiplied countless times in 2026 and beyond.
countless times in 2026 and beyond. >> I hope that too. I'll pray for that too.
>> I hope that too. I'll pray for that too. >> Awesome.
>> Awesome. >> Thank you, Lee.
>> Thank you, Lee. >> My pleasure. Thanks for having us,
>> My pleasure. Thanks for having us, brother.
brother. >> You, too. God bless.
>> You, too. God bless. >> God bless.
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