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Psychology Expert: How Colours, Your First Name And Your Location Might Be Ruining Your Life!

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people are actually stuck in

relationships and jobs financially stuck

becoming much lonelier as a species but

there is a way to get unstuck and we're

going to find out right now Adam alter

New York Times best-selling author and

psychologist this episode is for people

who are stuck in their careers

relationship or any aspect of life and

how to become unstuck the career model

for how we live our lives professionally

is broken as you specialize you have

less Variety in what you do and there's

a massive Rising loneliness and

depression and anxiety and part of the

reason for that is we don't share our

stuckness and they also have no idea how

common it is so what is the relationship

between perseverance or knowing when to

quit research basically shows that it's

a good idea to persevere beyond the

point where you say this is hard and I

feel stuck how long you should do that

is another question and the best example

of this is an idea known as the creative

Cliff illusion and it's this illusion

where you that's when the good stuff

comes if you persevere how do you teach

someone to be that kind of person there

are two things one thing is

I remember reading about the studies

where people would rather take an

electric shock than to sit idly on their

own it's a brilliant study they've tried

it already so they know it hurts but

it's so reversive to just sit with our

own thoughts for even half an hour

two-thirds of them go and start playing

with this machine so what we found is

that we don't pay enough attention to

what will be good for us and that's

often when we get stuck what we need to

do then if you want to be able to get

unstuck quickly the best thing you can

do is

have you ever been stuck

are you stuck in an area of your life

right now

I think you are and I say that because I

think to some degree we all are some of

us more than others and that is exactly

why I had to have this conversation with

Adam alter the guy that literally wrote

the book about being stuck and how to

know if you are and maybe most

importantly of all how to get unstuck

Adam is a master of what he calls the

art of the Breakthrough which is really

looking at why some people fail why they

get stuck and why others don't he's also

a genius when it comes to marketing and

psychology he's the professor of

marketing and psychology at one of the

top schools in America he kind of just

knows why people do what they do and how

to help them do something else how do we

know if the decisions we're making in

our life right now in all the areas of

our life are the right decisions or the

wrong decisions Adam has scientifically

backed answers to all of these questions

he is refreshing he is positive and he

is full of just as many important

questions as he is valuable

life-changing answers I feel so much

richer for having this conversation with

Adam and I know you will too enjoy

enjoy [Music]

[Music]

from an academic standpoint who are you

I am a professor of marketing and

psychology so I'm very interested in

business but also interested in the

psychological side of it so how do

consumers behave how do they think what

do they buy how do they spend their time

and money and other resources

I'm incredibly interested and curious about

about

all of your books specifically

this book here

anatomy of a breakthrough and also your

your first book drunk tank pink

because this book helps people to get

unstuck why did you decide to write a

book called anatomy of a breakthrough

and you know what writing books takes a

huge amount of time and effort and

you're a man that has many things he

could be doing so why was this so

important that you chose to write about

it it's something that I've been

thinking about in some form or another

for years literally I'd say 25 years I I

I've been stuck a lot in my life and so

even before I became intellectually

interested in the topic it was a factor

that had had a big effect on the way I

was living my life and I wanted to

understand whether there was maybe a

road map that I could present to other

people that would help them get unstuck

but I think the real answer is there was

some research that I was doing in I

think this would have been in about 2005

and I found this really interesting

cultural difference in how people

anticipate or expect change in the world

and so what we found is that people in

the west people in places like the US

Canada the UK Australia New Zealand they

tend to be blindsided by change so if

you give them five days in a row and you

show that it's been rainy for five days

or sunny for five days they anticipate

that that's going to continue and they

think the same about the stock market

and other other variables that can shift

or stay the same but but if you do that

with people in East Asia Japan South

Korea China when they see a pattern

that's gone a particular way for a while

they think that it's about to change and

what that does is it means that they're

much more Nimble in the face of change

whereas in the west people tend to be

blindsided by it and it makes us

especially slow at coming to grips with

the idea that the world's changed and we

need to Pivot in order to get unstuck

can you give me you know the the most

popular examples

of being stuck that my listeners now

could relate to yeah I've been running

this survey for about five years on

people all around the world asking them

with that definition of stuckness are

you stuck in some way and I find that

people usually within about 15 seconds

start typing a response which means that

stuckness is very top of mind and their

responses vary so some of them are

financially stuck they want to be able

to save or they want to be able to earn

more money some of them are stuck in

relationships some are stuck in jobs a

lot of them are stuck quite narrowly in

Creative Pursuits like I'm trying to

learn this piano piece I'm trying to

learn this new art technique I'm a

filmmaker and I can't come up with

creative ideas I'm a business person and

I can't figure out what my next venture

should be so there's a there's a very

broad range and I find that almost

everyone in at least one respect with a

bit of time comes up with something they

say I'm stuck in this way and then they

can express it is there a trend in who's

getting stuck more often yeah so I have

a pet Theory I think um the kind of

career model for for how we live our

lives professionally is broken for most

people I think what happens is as you

specialize you're supposed to get more

and more narrow in what you do and you

have less Variety in what you do and

that's how you get stuck is by doing the

same thing every day and there's a huge

amount of evidence for that in all sorts

of different areas Actuarial science for

me at least very quickly put me into

that little pigeonholed spot where I

felt I was getting trapped and it was

only going to increase and so the thing

I've done ever since is to try to create

as much Variety in my professional life

as possible because then if you don't

like aspect number one but you have nine

other aspects to your job you can go and

do that for a little while and so

bouncing around I think is critical for

getting unstuck often very smart people

get very very interested in very narrow

topics and that's that's essentially the

definition of a PhD is you spend a huge

amount of time becoming an expert in a

very narrow area

and I think that's fine for a PhD itself

but if you're going to make a whole life

out of doing that I think if you're a

Restless intellectually curious person

you're going to get stuck really fast

you almost become a victim to being good

at something in life don't you because

you get promoted and promoted and

promoted up in that direction and your

label whatever it is doctor dentist

lawyer becomes reinforced by your own

success at that thing and you can get 10

years down the line at something and go

how the [ __ ] am I living next to the

office I'm a lawyer it's doing law 14

hours a day what happened to that violin

I used to play and we become you're

right we become really narrow

individuals and when you think about

what a human is we're so multifaceted

especially when we're younger yeah we're

doing all of these things it's a real

shame I also think what happens is you

get promoted and it does get narrow but

it also changes so the thing that you

were really good at is no longer the

thing that you're doing and a lot of

what happens in promotion especially

professionally is you become a manager

and you manage people who do the thing

you love instead of doing the thing you

love and so that's how you get stuck as

well is by by being promoted out of the

thing that got you passionate about what

you were doing and being told no instead

you're going to watch other people do

the thing you love now you suddenly have

to be a people manager which some people

like doing but a lot don't and so that's

also inherent in the kind of

professional models that we have in

hierarchical organizations

this happens by

I guess in part by being a bit

unconscious about

what you want yeah and you just kind of

take what you're given so you take the

promotion and you take this and you take

the the relocation to this place and how

do we prevent that happening I I think

that's the job of people who write about

these subjects right and that's kind of

what I saw as as the mission for this

book was to try to say you know if you

don't want to be stuck or if you want to

be able to get unstuck quickly there's a

set of questions you can ask yourself

and let me just lay them out for you

here they are in fact the last thing in

the book is a hundred ways to get

unstuck it's just a digestion of all

these ideas and I think those are

questions that people don't often ask

themselves you're right there's a sort

of accidental

way that we live our lives and we take

what's given and if someone says here's

a promotion you hear that word and you

grab onto it and you you write it as far

as you can but um I think it's it's easy

to be a little bit mindless about where

your life takes you and and sometimes

that's fine but in a lot of cases it's

not and

book tries in in the book I try to

distinguish those cases from from each

other like when should you let life lead

you and when should you be a little more purposeful

purposeful

on that exact point I've mulled over the

last couple of weeks this idea that

there's kind of two narratives that

Prevail in our lives kind of two

instructors one of them is this external

narrative it could come from your

parents or society's expectation of you

taking that promotion or thinking that

that job is a admirable job for you to

take so you take it that's the external

narrative then the other narrative

if I can call it that is how you feel

yeah and I think we're we're conditioned

to care more about that external

narrative because the rewards seem to be

more aligned with the external narrative

than like how you feel because if people

really were orientated by how they felt

in that job in that relationship in that

City whatever in that course at University

University

um they would make significantly

different decisions but we always it's

almost like we've tuned out of that yeah

I I think the problem is that humans

don't know how they feel in isolation as

well if I took you and put you in a room

for a week and said you can have food

and water and you can have your thoughts

and I took you out of after a week and

said so what are you thinking like

what's real what's not real what do you

believe what are your preferences and

values you'd struggle it's there's a lot

of really interesting evidence that if

you isolate humans they don't really

know what to do with themselves so those

external forces that there's a kind of

permeability between what I'm feeling

inside my head and thinking and what

these other forces are suggesting to me

so I think I think it's totally true

that we don't pay enough attention to

what will be good for us separate from

what other people think we should be

doing but I also don't even think many

of us know the answers to those

questions not all the time but about a

lot of things like I know

deep somewhere I know that I love to

draw that I mean I'm at peace when I'm

drawing and painting I haven't done that

for a really long time I'm too busy to

your point of being too focused but I

know that that's something that

preference wise I love doing

but then the question should I make my

career and my life about that the only

way I knew how to answer that was by

speaking to lots of people who said it's

very difficult to become an artist

here's the path it's probably going to

be hard to make any money

so keep it as a hobby but but knowing

just based on my feelings what to do I

wouldn't have known what to do as a

young person and so I think that's

that's part of the problem is that it's

not just that we're

silly for kind of paying attention to

others it's also that I don't even know

if we know in isolation without those

inputs what the right kinds of paths are

you said about putting me in a room and

leaving me with my thoughts that sounded

like hell it does yeah and as you I

remember reading about the studies where

people would rather take an electric shock

shock

than to sit idly on their own yeah and

they tested people and they said would

you rather take an electric shock or sit

here for a couple of minutes on your own

and people took

it's a it's a brilliant study I mean the

way they set it up is brilliant because

they get you to sit in this room and

they do it with men and women they're

mostly college undergrads and they say

to them you're just going to be sitting

here for half an hour there's a little

machine in the corner it delivers

electric shocks they've tried it already

so they know it hurts it doesn't feel

good and they're told you know you can

sit with your thoughts or you know the

machines there if you want to go and use

it which is a bizarre thing to say to

people and they sit there for a while

and time passes

and uh the vast majority of them go I

think it's two-thirds of them go and

start playing with this machine it's so

aversive to just sit with our own

thoughts for even half an hour that we

need stimulation even if it's negative stimulation

stimulation

and you wrote a book about this this

subject matter about addiction and

screens and all of these things this

sort of incessant need for distraction

that we seem to have developed what was

your biggest sort of takeaway in

learning from that process of putting

that book together

the biggest thing for me was I'd always

imagine that addiction and the need for

this kind of stimulation was a sort of

personality thing like you you either

have that personality or you don't but I

became absolutely convinced by not only

by the book and what I was researching

but by understanding how many of us fall

prey to these devices that this is

universal it's just about being human

that if you know how to push the right

buttons in a human you can turn that

human as you can with rats and monkeys

and other animals into into a bit of a

fiend for whatever the thing is that it

needs and the people who design the

platforms that we use are so good at

that job and they have so much data to

to perfect what they've done that

ultimately the platforms they design for

us are are like crack they're very very

difficult for us to resist

you talk about in drunk tank pink how

people behave differently when they're

in the presence of others and I found

that really really curious could you

just give me a flavor of the some of the

studies and insights you gained from

that because that kind of links to what

you're saying there about how living

behind screens might Decay our Humanity

a little bit Yeah well I think part of

it is just that the best versions of

ourselves come out when we're around

other people

um we are much much more likely to be

civil and decent to other people when

they're around when we see them and when

we spend time around them that kind of

shared social Space is really important

it's also really interesting when we're

around other people

um we we tend to default to the thing

that we are most like likely to do in

any moment so there's a lot of good

evidence with this like if you if you

take a champion cyclist you put him or

her on a bike a stationary bike

that person will go faster in the

presence of other people than alone and

there's something about this kind of

they call it latent energy this is a

very old psychological study that talks

about latent energy that is liberated

from us when we're in the presence of

other people so if you're trying to

learn something new you know you imagine

you're in class at school and there's a

teacher who's staring over your shoulder

that's terrible because we don't really

know how to take on board new

information we're just overwhelmed by

the cognitive load of that experience

but if it's something you're good at you

will be extra good at it in front of

other people there's something about

being energized by others so if I work

out with someone then I'm more likely to

You'll lift more you'll run faster and

so on yeah pretty reliably

in that book as well um before we get on

to being unstuck there were some other

things that I found really curious I was

Keen to ask you about

um this is your that was your first book

drunk tank pink you see how

our names have a huge bearing on our

outcomes across various facets of our

life yeah that's quite it's quite

shocking to me because my name is

something that we don't choose and it

seems to be so simple and slightly

irrelevant yeah

yeah it's it's true I mean there are

lots of different ways names influence us

um one of these little demonstrations

that I do when I give talks on this

subject is I'll I'll present the letters

of the Roman alphabet the 26 letters

that we we understand to be the letters

in the English language and I'll ask

people to think about their three

favorite letters

and then I say now put your hand up in

the room if one of those at least was

the first letter of your first name

middle name or last name and almost

every hand goes up so these are letters

who has preferences for letters it's a

bizarre thing to have to answer but we

do and it's because this that these

letters are such a strong expression of

who we are it's a it's a part of our ego

that's contained in the letters of our

name and so even that alone shows the

power of names over us that they are

such a strong reflection of who we are

and our identity uh so that's the first

thing and you find interesting effects

from this actually if you look at the

Hurricanes that we name in the U.S

or that you name around the world in

other places you get much more donation

Aid if the hurricane name matches your

initial so they found that when

Hurricane Katrina came through and

devastated New Orleans people whose

names began with a K donated way more

than people whose names didn't begin

with a k the same for a whole lot of

other hurricanes with other initials the

other big thing is the ease with which

people can pronounce your name so that

seems to have a really big effect on all

sorts of outcomes if people can

pronounce your name there's this kind of

sense of familiarity it's if that's the

the breaking of the ice happens over

that first pronunciation of your name

obviously the easier it is to say the

name the less anxiety you have about it

I guess the more smoothly that breaking

of the ice goes and there's a lot of

evidence from some of my own research we

looked for example at how quickly people

rise up through Law Firm hierarchies how

quickly do they become partners

and there's a period in the middle of

careers in like the about the 10th to

the 20th year of a career for a lawyer

where there's a premium you're much more

likely to become a partner several

percent more likely to become a partner

earlier if your name is pronounceable

and I think what's what's happening

there is

if I'm a partner at a firm and there are

a lot of young Associates and I'm trying

to put together a team if there's

someone with a name that's easy to

pronounce and someone whose name I'm

anxious about pronouncing I don't know

how to pronounce it I will default to

the one who's easy to pronounce I'm not

trying to be rude about it but in that

moment it just seems easier it's the

path of least resistance and that's how

humans act much of the time is there not

an element of um discrimination and

Prejudice associated with that because I

think if a name was easier to pronounce

it's probably familiar it's therefore

probably culturally popular they're

probably like me you know like a Jack or

like a Stephen

but if it's a a name that I've not seen

trying to figure out causality here it

could be because they're foreign you

know my mother I always think about this

my mother's from Nigeria and she could

have given me like a traditional

Nigerian name right but she called me

Stephen and I think

you know I was also born in Botswana in

Africa um I think had she called me

something else my life probably would

have been quite different in all honesty

and I worked for four years on

phones doing like telesales yeah and

when you call up and your name is

Stephen in the UK and you sound like I

do yeah I think any Prejudice someone

might have had because of the color of

my skin or where I'm from um

vanishes is there any evidence to

support that yeah so there are two

things one thing is absolutely the

Prejudice that goes along with having a

foreign sounding name uh and there's

evidence for example in the United

States there's a study where thousands

of CVS were mailed out and applications

for jobs either with a traditionally

white name or a traditionally black name

as we think of them in the United States

based on the demographic naming Trends

and especially for the ones that were

kind of in the middle of the pack not

especially strong and not especially

weak there's a huge premium to having

the traditionally white name so there's

a lot of prejudice that goes on with

naming but also in the studies we did we

went out a partial out this specific

effect of fluency of how easy it was to

pronounce so we restricted our analysis

in the one case to just white lawyers

who were born in that particular country

and so you find the same effect even

there that the white lawyers with white

names that were easier to pronounce

tended to do a little bit better but

you're right I think a huge part of it

is prejudice and discrimination what

about our environment our surroundings

how does that have an impact on how

we're feeling in our behavior from from

what you learn writing your first book

yeah so I focused a lot on uh physical

environments things like natural

environments the power of nature to to

replenish Us in general which which

sounds like a kind of non-scientific

idea but there's a huge amount of

science to this idea that

if you happen to spend a lot of time in

urban environments and then you go to a

place where you have say a running

stream or win through the leaves on a

tree or something like that it's deeply

replenishing it it has all sorts of

amazing psychological and emotional

effects I was also very very interested

in the effects of of the weather and of

colors around us and how those shape our

our experiences of the world so there's

a some of it's not all that surprising

but uh you see even in baseball matches

in the United States when the game is

being played on a warmer night there is

more aggressive behavior you see huge

rises in crime things like that on hot nights

nights

um and then with colors you know that's

really the centerpiece of the book I'm

colorblind so I've always been

fascinated by color but the title of the

book drunk tank pink is specifically

about this color that is used to paint

the inside of jail cells in some places

and it's a color that's supposed to

pacify people it's like this bright

bubble gum pink color and they've found

quite a lot of evidence for the last 30

or 40 years now that there's something

about this color that does seem to calm

people down at least initially pink it's

bright bubble gum pink yeah

and it sedates people briefly and then

they go then there's a backlash effect

but yeah oh really yeah they found that

if you leave people in there for too

long apparently there's a backlash yeah

hitchhikers should wear red

yeah this is uh this is a research

looking at how how essentially

attractive we are to other people

depending on the colors we're wearing

um and the the early studies were done

on online dating platforms where you

have the same picture of a person and

you you photoshop the shirt they're

wearing this is true for men and women

and it doesn't matter whether they're

trying to attract men or women but

there's something about the color red in

particular that's really attractive to

humans and actually to other animals too

um and when you see the color red it

inspires a kind of approach oriented

behavior so where you might have passed

that person by if you're thinking about

dating apps and you're swiping there's

something about the color red that's

that slows you down and attracts you and

in the context of hitchhiking it has a

similar effect especially when you you

have a heterosexual male driving and you

have a woman wearing a red shirt you get

a very strong effect so if I'm trying to

find a girlfriend or a boyfriend

you're saying

make sure they're not wearing red make

sure they're not wearing red well if

they're wearing red you've got to ask

yourself am I attracted to the red shirt

or am I attracted to the person whereas

if they're wearing another color it's

much more likely to be an unbiased

unvarnished opinion of them but if I

want to attract the opposite oh if you

want to attract wear red yeah okay

that's useful to know yeah

I am not single but um

yeah oh but even for your partner this

is probably why Conor McGregor's has

this famous saying where he says it's

red panty night all right so when he

wins a fight he I think he said it on

the microphone to Joe Rogan he said oh

it's red panty night tonight which means

that him and his wife are going to be

intimate yeah yeah but red is always for

whatever reason in society been

seductive hasn't it's always been as it

relates to lingerie I wonder if lingerie

sells are more in red than others

quick one before we get back to this

episode just give me 30 seconds of your time

time

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thank you thank you so much back to the

episode so getting getting to the topic

of being unstuck then which is what the

anatomy of a breakthrough is all about

what does it feel like when someone is

stuck so how do I know if I'm stuck what

is there an emotional sort of you know

sensation yeah it's an interesting

question so it's it's subjective you

know if you're Stucky you can feel it

because you could be in the same

situation and not feel stuck I'll give

you a good example of this I had a

conversation with Malcolm Gladwell who

was telling me about his dad who is a

math professor and his dad was trying to

solve a math conundrum for 30 years

by external definitions he was stuck for

30 years because he couldn't solve this

math puzzle which is a common experience

for math professors I imagine but he

loved it he didn't think of himself as

being stuck that for him was the process

that was why he went to work and why he

kept doing what he was doing and so you

know I if I thought about being stuck in

something and not making meaningful

progress objectively for 30 years the

idea drives me crazy but for his dad for

Malcolm's dad that that was something

that was really appealing he really

enjoyed that process and so I think a

lot of of dealing with being stuck at

first is getting your head around what

it means to be stuck and figuring out

that usually it's not as big a deal as

it seems it might be and once you come

to grips with the emotional part of it

you can usually bring some sort of

strategies and actions to bear and and

to start to move yourself I'm convinced

of that and that's that's why I wrote

the book because I think there is a way

to get unstuck in almost every case

what is the in your view the

relationship between perseverance

becoming unstuck or knowing when to quit

yeah I mean there's a there's an amazing

cottage industry on both sides of that

spectrum of books that are being written

that I think are excellent books that

make the case for for both of those ends

of the spectrum you've got Angela

Duckworth's grit which is all about

sticking through and and continuing on

and I think anatomy of a breakthrough

leans in that direction and then you've

got Annie Duke who wrote the book quit

which is about quitting the fact that

we've got so many options all the time

most of us why would you keep doing the

thing you're doing if it's not working

out for you you should probably do

something else now they're both very

sophisticated thinkers they wouldn't say

you should always persevere or always quit

quit

but it's a great question how do you

know when you are stuck that it's time

to persevere versus time to quit and I

think it's worth thinking about a the

opportunity cost so what are you leaving

behind is there something else that's

very obvious that would be an easy thing

to jump to that would require leaving

behind the thing that's making you stuck

and if that idea seems really appealing

as it did for me when I was doing

Actuarial science and wanted to jump

away from that then you should probably

consider moving on but the the research

basically shows that almost always

it's a good idea to persevere beyond the

point where you say this is hard and

it's not feeling good and I feel stuck

how long you should do that is another

question I think one of the the guides

that should should be useful in

determining that is to ask yourself

if there's an end state that I'm trying

to approach am I getting closer to it

across time you know if I'm I'm learning

a new skill is the Delta between where I

am and where I'd like to be shrinking

over time the gap between those two

shrinking or is it staying the same or

is it even getting larger and if it's

staying the same or getting larger then

I'm probably not getting closer and

that's that's a good a good indication

that I should probably quit it's time to

move on I've thought a lot about this

and in my last book I wrote a chapter

about quitting and I was trying to

figure out why I appear to be quite a

good quitter I'm well known for quitting

school my first company my second company

company

um university after one lecture and this

is the quitting framework I try to draw

up okay I'm gonna just slide it across

the desk and please ask me if you've got

any questions

so there's two kind of routes you can

get on the quick framework is it are you

thinking of quitting because it's hard

you're running a marathon it's the last

mile of the race it's hard but it's

worth it yep so if it's hard and it's

not worth it quit if it's hard and it's

worth it stay the course

um going down the other side it's that

could be a relationship a place you're

living the job you have as an actuary

whatever yeah um

so so this this framework seems to me

unassailable in other words there's

nothing I can't imagine that anything

here could be disagreed with because it

makes total sense and it's nice and

Broad it's it's nice and Broad right

yeah you can imagine any situation being

folded into it I the other thing I quite

like about it is that uh this

distinction between it's just hard and

it sucks is is very Central to a lot of

the ideas in in my book and I think if

something sucks it's emotionally

unrewarding and you hate it and you're

grinding through it

most of the time you should quit and and

you have here this one limb to your

model that says if you can make it suck

less continue on very often yeah right

talking to your boss right exactly and

so there's there's Great Value in asking

that question but uh it's just hard part

I'm focusing on because a huge part of

this book is about how hardship is the

first step in making something good yeah

good stuff happens when things are hard

and because we're human and we have been

evolutionarily I don't know pinned into

the situation where hardship is seen as

a problem like we're using too many

resources don't do something that's

harder than it needs to be we're very

used to that it's not true about

everything we do but it's true about

enough things that we misinterpret

hardship or hardness for being a problem

whereas in many domains the good stuff

only happens almost every time after it

gets hard

um in in many domains for human growth

and otherwise in your book you talk

about how

you know you kind of debunked the idea

that young people

um start the best most culturally valuable

valuable

companies we tend to think that it's

like 21 year olds in their bedroom that

are starting all the great

tech companies for example but you show that

that

a couple of failures is actually seems

to be correlate with success yeah

and there's a you know that whole

section felt like a bit of narrative shift

shift

yeah I mean it was it was a it was a big

thing for me that um

you know one of the ideas that's very

prominent in my field is this

availability heuristic it's this idea

that you pay a lot of attention to

what's most available in the world this

is an old idea from uh from Danny

Kahneman and amosversky behavioral

decision researchers and um the thing

that we see a lot of is very successful

young people because they're interesting

they're fascinating stories so you you

you're interested in them and a lot of

the biggest companies I think are run

especially tech companies by quite young

CEOs or people who began when they were young

young

and so we fixate on them and they're

available in our minds we see

documentaries about them we read about

them all the time

but they're they're vanishingly rare and

so what you find is that the the age to

begin a company if you want to maximize

success if you look at the age of the

CEOs who tend to be very very successful

we're talking like mid-40s that's The

Sweet Spot mid 40s even into 50s and the

the thing that distinguishes a 22 year

old from a 45 year old is as you said

partly failure that by the time you're

45 you've doubled how long you've been

alive you've had a lot of time to fail

and to come back from that and so if

you're still creating companies you've

learned something along the way but also

your life is deeply Rich at that point

in a way that it isn't necessarily as a

22 year old you've got a lot of other

stuff going on good stuff and bad stuff

maybe and maybe complicated stuff but

all of it is kind of adding a spice to

the mix that I think makes your ideas

thicker in some way and and makes you I

think better at making certain

calculations that maybe when you're

younger you don't have all the

information for and so that's what you

find who's more creative young people or

middle-aged people or old people it's

interesting so

young people and I'm thinking especially

about kids because I have a

five-year-old and a seven-year-old

um they are phenomenally creative and in

part they're creative because they don't

accept anything they're curious about

everything my kids will not ask a

question without a follow-up or five or

ten or Twenty follow-ups right nothing

is okay until we've explored it to the

ends of the Earth and that's amazing and

that's why kids learn so much so quickly

they take nothing for granted there's no

such thing as common wisdom to a kid

right you can say everyone does it this

way and they'll be like why but you say

that to an adult most of us say oh okay

we assume that what's the done thing the

way the herd is behaving is that way for

a reason even though often it's just

accidental or it's just the easiest

thing or whatever

and so I think very very young people

are tremendously creative because they

push back a lot but one of the really

interesting things for me in this book

is that I found people from Young

adulthood all the way through to very

old adulthood um

very later in their lives who are

experimentalists by Nature they take

nothing for granted and they constantly

question and so they are way more

creative because they ask more questions

but then they then they say okay so here

are 10 options how do I know which one's

the best I'm going to inhabit each one

for two months and then you know in in

two years I'll know the answer and they

they do this serially and some of them

become Olympic athletes even if they

don't physically have the stature for it

because they're so good at finding new

techniques I talk about one of them in

the book some of them become business

Titans because they say that everyone

else is doing this thing and assuming

it's right here's a different thing

that's way better and I know that

because I've tried all the other options

and and they they end up being really

successful because that Curiosity that

you have in childhood when you carry it

over into adulthood it's kind of like a

superpower and so I I think um it's more

about the questions you ask than your

age I I couldn't agree more and it's one

of the most the things I I constantly am

trying to figure out how to get my team

when you said to me that there's a group

of there's a certain type of person that

just continues to keep asking why is the

age I was like can you introduce me yeah

because I'd love to hire them because

that's exactly you think about what

Innovation is at its core and it's that

that reject that kind of rejection of

convention yeah and that harder road

which is to try and reason up from first

principles per se yeah um you mentioned

an athlete yeah who are you referring to

yes there's an athlete Named Dave

burkhoff he was a an Olympic athlete in

the 1988 and 92 games

uh 88 in Seoul and 92 in Barcelona he's

a backstroke swimming swims 100 meter

backstroke and then some of the medley

races and I spoke to him for a while on

the phone to understand his experiences

because he um

he he doesn't look like a lot of other

backstroke swimmers they tend to be very

very tall the average world record

holder is six three to six four so quite

tall he's about 5 10. which is a big

difference in in professional Avenues if

you're thinking about it Olympic

athletes and um when he was when he was

a student in the mid 80s he was at

Harvard which is not a place you really

go if you're going to be a champion

swimmer it's a place you go for

intellectual experiences but it's not

the best athletic School generally

speaking but he had a coach there who

encouraged him to be curious to ask a

lot of questions and burkhoff was

naturally like this so he he would say

to his coach why would I why do I need

to swim that way like why don't I try

like 10 other ways to swim let's tweak

my technique in all these different ways

and see what works best and what he

ended up doing was he discovered that

you swim about 80 I think it's like 88

faster when you're fully submerged under

the water than when half of your body is

above the water and half is below which

makes total sense from a physics

perspective but most backstroke swimmers

the way they swim is they push off the wall

wall

and the minute they do that their body

starts to fight for oxygen because

they're under the water and so your

instinct is to pop up as quickly as

possible but if you can train yourself

to deal with the oxygen deprivation

you stay underwater for longer and you

swim much faster so burkhoff developed

this technique called the burkhov blast

off it was known as where he would swim

underwater for the first 40 meters of a

hundred meter race so 40 percent of the

race almost half of the almost a full

lap of the Olympic pool and then he

would come up there and then he would

keep swimming and he broke World Records

he wasn't the best swimmer in terms of

his physique but he was the best swimmer

strategically and he had spent years

experimenting to find this technique and

then of course all the other athletes

saw the same thing and they started

doing the same thing and so it became

more competitive but in the interim he

won gold medals at two Olympic Games

he won a bronze he was the world record

holder multiple times so you know that

questioning led someone who in certain

respects at least physically shouldn't

have been the world record holder to be

just that the question I ask is how do

you teach someone to be that kind of

person how do you teach someone to be

more experimental and to be more Curious

and to ask why more because just from my

observation from what I've seen over the

last I don't know 10 years in business

and I think about all the teams I've had

and all the people we've hired which is

more than a thousand

some people just have it yeah some

people just have a almost like a

cognitive but default towards being

curious about the possibility of a

better way and then some people

regardless of how many times you you ask

for that behavior or you might ride it

on the wall or you might say that it's

our values they just don't naturally

demonstrate that Curiosity

yeah I mean there's an individual

difference variable that you're

describing that's real and and with

every construct when we talk about a

desirable human trait there's going to

be variance right creativity uh

addictive personality and so on all of

these things are going to vary on a

spectrum some things that are educable

you can you can sort of teach them you

can make people better at them so if

you're at a three out of ten you can

become a six out of ten or maybe even a

seven out of ten uh this curiosity

question though I think

and I say this as an educator I think it

can be taught and I think that's

essentially what we try to do a lot of

the time that's my course I teach a

marketing course it's maybe three months

long if you only come out of that course

with one thing it's to know the right

questions to ask you know if you're in a

business and you're trying to promote a

product or an idea or to create a new

product I want you not necessarily to

know the answer but at least to know

what the questions should be and so I

think it's the job of Educators the job

of books the job of whatever information

you get in the world to train you in

that direction and so if I were going to

say there's one thing we should train

people in a business context you know if

you have a new employee

it's certainly the on on the job stuff

is important you know like learn the

skills that are important to this

specific job if there are technical

skills but the most important General skill

skill

know the right questions to ask and

constantly ask so here's one way you do

that is you say I want you to to look at

this thing whatever this thing is

um it could be it could be your

framework that you showed me the

quitting framework I would take everyone

who I'm considering hiring

and as a diagnostic tool I'd have them

look at it and say tell me one thing

that's not right with the framework or

that you think could be improved

do it again now give me a second thing

what about a third thing and if they

can't do it the first time coach them

through it work work through it with

them but don't just do it with your

framework do it with

find 10 ad campaigns say imagine you're

the chief marketing officer at this

company what's one thing you could do

differently that maybe isn't better but

at least is worth asking let's ask that question

question

and and if you do that enough times

everyone becomes more Curious it becomes

the Habit that's the way you interact

with the world so I think it to a large

extent can be taught that's the that's

kind of the thing I I was reflecting on

is do you have to even tell someone to

look at the framework and then find

something better because I'm in search

of the person that looks at the

framework and goes Steve I found

something better

those people are amazing they are they

do exist they do exist and I found some

of them and that's that's Dave burkhoff

right no one said to him you have to

question whether the way everyone swims

the back stroke is the best way

uh and I found a few people like that

but they are vanishingly rare there

aren't that many of them who really make

that their kind of life's philosophy

experimentalism as a philosophy but

there are some a lot of them actually

end up going into Academia and into

science because they want to know they

want to know the answers yeah they just

want to know they're curious to the ends

of the Earth but

for the rest the other 99 of people who

aren't like that I think you can lift

them all up from a three out of ten four

out of ten to a seven or an eight maybe

not a nine or a ten

but if your whole Workforce is people

who are seven or an eight out of ten on

curiosity it's much better than having

the most theater three so I think you

can move the needle a little bit and

those that small minority tend to

provide so much value for the

less experimental majority yeah you know

like because I I think about we have

this group and all of my companies

called Ever Changing landscape and the

whole point of the group is when we see

something changing in the world or you

know might be a new update to a platform

or something within our industry has

changed it could be an update or a

feature or whatever

take it from where you've seen it and

just share it with the rest of the

company and you see in these groups that

we have that it's really a small cohort

educating everybody else so let's say

there's 100 people in the slack Channel

yeah I'd say there'd be

five people that were super prolific and

there'd be 15 that were kind of you know

yeah kind of doing it and then you know

then it'd be another 30 25 that do it

sometimes and then there's kind of a

solid 50 that don't ever do it and they

don't seem to have that sort of Natural

Curiosity I always think as a CEO I need

to like find more of that five percent

because the the disproportionate value

they can add by finding as I said to you

before recording this podcast just a

tiny tweak that changes our trajectory

is profound here's here's my advice on

that I think I think you're exactly

right about the distribution and we see

this in a lot of cases uh I talk in the

book about the 80 20 rule the Pareto

Principle that most of the gains come

from the small minority and so on and we

know that like if you're a business

often the vast majority of your sales

come from the tiny minority of customers

and so on so we know this is true

and in the Casio where you say 50 of

people are not doing the work on the

slack Channel

you could break that 50 down into I

think two broad groups there's one group

that's just

the way that kind of person approaches

life is to just not be very motivated

and there's nothing there's not much you

can do about that part right if they

come to work because they see it

entirely as an extrinsic

reward for their time that they come and

they get paid and that's just what

they're doing and it's a day job

you're never going to teach them to be

curious but there is a group of people

in that 50 and I I think it's probably

sizable especially at a company like one

of your companies

those people want to be better they want

to do a better job at this they maybe

don't have the skills today but if you

show them they will latch onto it and

they will get better at it and it's the

the most important thing you can do as a

as a leader in organizations is to not

just find the people who are talented

versus not talented but to find the

people who don't yet have whatever you

would consider to be the talent and to

separate them into those who really want

to be their talented ones and those who

just actually don't care that much

they're just there to do the bare minimum

minimum

and that's where I think you're pouring

your your attention and education into

that that first set of people who are

motivated is key do you think you can

teach someone to be curious about

something because I wonder you know

people go home and they choose what they

watch on YouTube and what they read

about yeah and what they consume on

Netflix that kind of seems to be the

purest indication of what they're

actually curious about the stuff they

they dealt lean into in their free time

so we've got some people in our team

even here that are you know here now

that when they go home they're learning

about cameras and how to shoot video

video and all those kinds of things

um and then you might have someone in

the same team that goes home and just

wants to watch keeping up with

Kardashians you know it's soft it's

quite obvious I think everyone could

agree that the the first person who has

a Natural Curiosity towards the subject

matter outside of their professional

Pursuits is going to achieve more in

their professional Pursuits so could you

and you know I have to pref have to

provide some Nuance here that it doesn't

matter if someone goes home and watches

keeping up with Kardashians they'll be

useful in other ways because they'll be

getting sort of creative insights

outside of the industry like you said

but I do believe that those that are

curious about the thing they do

professionally will go the furthest yeah

so I think with curiosity in general if

you like if I I don't know much about

cameras I just have my phone and I use

it as a camera that's about all I know I

just push buttons

and so I'm not that curious about them

but if you give me

let's say the most educated camera

Consumer in the world is at 100 if you

take me from zero percent where I am now

to 10 or 15 percent

I then know enough to start to develop

curiosity part of the problem with being

a novice is you don't even know what's

interesting about the thing like if you

if you don't drink red wine

and then you at some point you start

drinking you're like oh there are

different varietals that's interesting

oh even within that varietal it turns

out there's a difference between Napa

and burgundy or whatever and as you get

more knowledgeable about the subject the

nuances become interesting to you

because they mean something like I I

this happens with music all the time

like if you love a kind of music

especially if it's the kind of music

that most people don't listen to

you try to show someone else that music

and you play your two favorite songs

they'll be like they both sound the same

it's the most frustrating thing as

someone who likes something a lot who's

really passionate and it's true for art

and movies and whatever else so

everyone's like yeah whatever it's like

it's same same it's all just part of the genre

genre

but once you develop a taste for it and

you get curious and you get into it

that's when you start to see the real

life of it and so I think you're the job

of someone who wants others to be

curious about a topic or to develop

Curiosities is to make them not the zero

percent to make them at the 10 or 15 or

20th percent that then prompts them to

want to figure out the rest

because you don't get there from zero

you talk about maximizing and

satisficing you believe there are two

outlooks on success this is part two of

your business um your book The the heart

section and it there seems to be some

kind of through line between

experimenters and non-experimenters and

maximizes and satisficing yeah

satisficing yeah that's right yeah so

this this idea it's an old idea it's

about 70 years old now but it's the idea

that um broadly speaking when you make

decisions or make choices you can be

either a maximizer on one end of the

spectrum or a satisficer a maximizer is

someone who says about everything I need

the very best I need to spend a lot of

time and energy figuring out the best I

need to produce the best if I'm choosing

what food to eat or what job to have or

whatever everything's got to be the very

very best I'm going to maximize I'm

going to make it as good as it can

possibly be and I'm going to bring the

resources required to make that happen

satisfices of people who say

you know there's a level that's good

enough it's not perfect but it gets over

the bar and it's going to be a different

bar for different things if it's an

important thing the bar gets raised and

it'll it's lowered for less important

things but as soon as I find an option

that's good enough I'm going to take it

and then move on with my life

and then there are people who are kind

of in the middle who say about some

things like my partner that I choose or

if I'm going to choose what job to have

or which which country to live in those

are really important whether to have

kids those are important questions I'm

going to maximize on those everything else

else

not that important at least relatively

speaking I'm going to just find a good

enough option and what you find is that

people who satisfy us

tend to be much happier oh [ __ ]

not at no the the key is to I mean if

you maximize on everything I think it's

paralyzing the key is to know when to

maximize and so if you satisfy us a lot

of the time and say let's be honest I

don't need to status to maximize on everything

everything

then then you're that's the way to do it

is to know to be able to distinguish

between the two so if you're a chronic

maximizer about absolutely everything

there's a lot of evidence that you're

likely to get stuck on small unimportant things

depression is that um a trait of

maximizes yeah absolutely High achieving

yeah I mean so what what ends up

happening is it's the same as

perfectionism that's basically what it

is it's the it's the choice-based

version of perfectionism where you never

live up to your own standards which on

the one hand produces very good things

because you're always looking upward and

trying to get better on the other hand

it's paralyzing and exhausting and to

live your entire life that way in every

aspect of your life is problematic Mo

gauna who came on this podcast talked

about how we're happy when our

expectations are met and we're unhappy

when our expectations are unmet and from

what I ascertained from what you said

there maximizers have such high

expectations that they're often unmet

which causes unhappiness yeah accurate

100 yeah that's exactly right my thesis

my um PhD thesis was on expectations and

on on how important it is when

expectations deviate from or when when

reality deviates from expectations it's

almost never about the objective thing

you know like two people could have

exactly the same thing and feel totally

happy one could feel totally happy with

it the other could be devastated by it

it's all about what you're used to what

you expect how high your standards are

so I I think that's that's a very

powerful human element in in these

calculations when you're talking about

experimenters these are people that go

in search of nuances and ask why our

experimenters typically maximizes

because on the other side of the coin satisfices

satisfices

um they kind of accept it so they might

be the people that would accept

convention conventions answer for as

being yeah I'll just do what has always

been done yeah I think so I think

there's some overlap but the thing about

the people that I found were

experimentalists constantly asking

questions it was rarely about trivial

things it's not like they went and said

I'm going to go to the supermarket today

and get a chocolate and I want to

experiment I want to I want to eat every

chocolate in the supermarket over the

next year so that I know for the future

which one's the best they don't do that

they say hey I'm a swimmer I want to be

an Olympian how do I get to be an

Olympian I'm going to maximize the hell

out of that and so it's it's about

finding something that's really

important to you where it's worth being

an experimentalist but it would be

paralyzing to do that with every aspect

of your life I I think it certainly

wouldn't work for me

life crises

um we're talking about age a second ago

and I've got a I've got two friends I've

got one friend that's 29 and another

friend that's 39 and they're going

through what appears to be on the

surface of Crisis yeah and when I read

your book about how you call it the nine

ending crisis yeah it all made sense

what is that yeah so

this this is some research with a

colleague of mine Heller hirschfield

who's also a very good friend at UCLA

and when we were he was at NYU at the

time we we went we were sitting in his

office and I said to him you know

um I ran a marathon when I was 29. I've

never run another one I but I ran one at

29 and I remember thinking

I have to show myself as I approach 30

that there's meaning to my life and

purpose I need a big goal I need to

train for something and I thought that

was a really interesting human instinct

like it was a very productive one I ran

a marathon which was not a bad thing but

we were talking about and he said to me

it seems like maybe at these ages where

there's a nine at the end of your age

and you're looking down the Specter of a

new decade that it pushes you to kind of

audit your life you ask yourself is my

life meaningful is it what I want it to

be are there gaps that I need to fill is

there something I need to do and so we

started to find these big data sets that

had some evidence where we could see

what ages people were at and looking at

their decisions and we found all sorts

of really interesting behaviors when

people were 29 39 49 59 you get this big

rise in Marathon running so I wasn't the

only one there's an over-representation

of marathon runners especially

first-time marathon runners who have a

nine at the end of their age if you were

already a marathon runner you run your

fastest marathons in general when you

have a nine at the end of your age

um there's also some stuff that's not so

good so you see a massive rise in

infidelity so we found evidence that

there's an over-representation of people

at those ages who are seeking out

extramarital Affairs you even see a rise

in suicide

so that doesn't mean everyone who's got

a nine end at their a nine uh ending age

is at risk of that but it shows in

general that we we sort of hunt for

meaning and so the midlife crisis idea

that maybe when you approach 40 there's

going to be a big crisis there that may

be true but we also found this kind of

cyclical decade every decade you get

this this sort of miniature nine ending crisis

crisis

I was the in the best shape I've ever

been in my life when I was 29. that was

the year that was the year I got closest

to having all eight ABS 30 has it been

great not as great

so I was wondering as you said that if

uh what happens when

the year after you know if 29 is often

some of our most productive achievements

or Affairs yeah does that means 30 40 50

is when we we chill a little bit it

varies a little it's funny so what you

see is it's sort of like a wave and the

peak of the wave is at nine but there

are some people who it only Dawns on

them when they actually hit the zero

ending age some people it starts at the

eight ending age it's really when you

get to like

34 35 36 44 45 46 right in the middle of

the decade when you see the the trough

for all of these kinds of behaviors

we're sort of most in our lives and

doing our thing and not really

questioning as much which I mean we

found that fascinating that that just

the accident that we happened to count

using a base 10 system means that every

10 years we we Zoom back and ordered our

lives in this way

it's such an intro because it doesn't

the number is such a an irrelevant thing

in the context of your physiological

Health your metabolic Health but symbols

symbols matter and you talk about

symbols in your first book as well yeah

and we don't appreciate how much symbols

sway our life in fundamental ways do we

yeah no that's right that's true and and

I think you know even these numbers are

symbolic they have symbolic meaning for

us it's something when you say I'm in my

30s it's different from saying I'm 28 or

29. even if it's just a year apart or

even a few days apart and it's the same

with what it means to be in your 40s

it's symbolic for a time of life and and

certain expectations about what that

time of your life is supposed to be and

so I think that's what happens we talked

about expectations that you you're

suddenly in your 40s or your 50s or your

60s and then you say what does that mean

and where here is where my expectations

are I should have the following things

maybe a certain amount of money a

certain career status maybe a partner

maybe kids

and then do you have those things and if

you don't

then you get this kind of acting out

Behavior some of it productive that

tries to remedy the problem perhaps you

try to get fit and run a marathon but

sometimes for some people it's not very

productive Behavior I know this more

than most because I started in business

at 18 and you can imagine

um when I was on BBC News night

and they introduce you and he's only 18

years old my business is making zero

money yeah but they were just blown away

because of expectation of what an 18

year old should be doing and then I had

that throughout my career and he's only

25 and he's got a thousand and he's only

20 and then he's only 29

and then it's stuff Stephen is an entrepreneur

entrepreneur

and I'm like listen one day has changed

and suddenly no one's Introducing Me by

my age he was 29 and 30. the

expectations of a 29 year old running a

business and how big that business might

be and how many team members and revenue

versus the 30 year olds you go huh you

better be a billionaire or else we're

not going to mention his age I'm in my

early 40s and it's the same thing as an

academic you know if you're a professor

in your 30s that's you're young and then

you hit suddenly one day you're 40 and

they're like ah yeah you're a professor whatever

whatever

when you wrote about symbols in your

first book what were some of the most

sort of surprising things in terms of

how powerful and inspirational they are

with us to us without us even knowing uh

well you know as a marketing Professor

I'm very very interested in how symbols

play a role in branding and in conveying

ideas really succinctly I think that the

the simplest way to convey an idea is

with an image and the images that are

the most powerful are often in symbolic

form a lot of them are very negative

images that we get from symbols they're

associated with ideals that we don't

like for example

um you know like uh something like a

swast sticker is a it's a terrible

symbol the way it's used or has been

used for the last almost 100 years now

um but the amount of meaning that's

conveyed in those symbols is is tremendous

tremendous

um and so it's

there's a there's a sort of terrible

power to symbols they can shape behavior

in all sorts of ways one of the studies

I did

um looked at people who were religious

versus not religious and then showed

them a religious symbol and then asked

them to do a behavior that was either

going to be done honestly or dishonestly

we were essentially measuring whether

they were going to behave honestly and

for those religious people seeing that

symbol kind of clicked something for

them and they became much more honest

so in general they might have had an

honesty level of 50 but you show them

that symbol even subtly in the

environment around them and suddenly

they become much more honest so these

these things are constantly swimming

around us and and gently nudging our

it almost reminded me a little bit of

the um the thing you wrote about in that

book about how when people are shown a

picture of eyeballs at like a free snack

bar where they can take what they want

they're much more honest about their

decisions because eyes again in a way

are a symbol yeah they're a symbol of

the tribe maybe yeah of being watched of

feeling like you're being watched I

there's um there's some really

interesting evidence from this uh

looking at um using eyeballs to get

people to behave better so if you have

an image of a pair of eyes looking at

you just disembodied just the eyes you

don't see any of the rest of the face

you find that people behave much more

honestly they're much less likely to

steal something you see shoplifting

rates go down the the best use of it

though I think is

if you say you're a chocoholic you love

chocolate but you don't want to be

eating it but you also want to have a

little bit around every now and again

one thing you can do is you can have a

little cupboard in your in your kitchen

where the inside of the cupboard you put

a mirror and that's where the chocolate

lives so you open it up and every time

you reach for the chocolate you have to

stare into your own soul

and so the eyeballs whether they're

yours or somebody else's just just

having to look at yourself not just

metaphorically but literally as you do

something it brings out your better

angels and there's a lot of evidence for

that in in various psychological studies

one of the things that stands in the way

of acceptance is this question which a

lot of people ask when they get stuck

which is or when they have a life Quake

which is why me why did this happen to

me yeah and that

relinquishes our sense of personal

responsibility it makes us a victim to

to the situation

um which we might objectively be a

victim however you want to Define it to

a situation but it doesn't seem to be

conducive with um getting out of it no

it doesn't and you know the interesting

thing is if you go to people who are at

the end of their lives they're on their

Death Beds and they know that the end is

near and you say to them did you ever

have a why me situation did it did

something happen in your life at any

point where you had cause whether you

did or not you had cause to say why me

you know this felt unfair

hundred percent of them will say yes

that's another case where we feel

isolated in those moments we're like why

me the implication of that is it's me

but not someone else their turn will

come we will all have these moments that

are really hard to deal with some of us

have had them already some of us will

have more of them in the future but they

are Universal and so the the best thing you can do I think in those moments is

you can do I think in those moments is to just kind of recognize that it's okay

to just kind of recognize that it's okay to be sad and pissed off and to struggle

to be sad and pissed off and to struggle with them but also there's some comfort

with them but also there's some comfort in knowing that actually this is just

in knowing that actually this is just what it is to be human everyone has

what it is to be human everyone has these moments you're not unique in

these moments you're not unique in responding that way and you're not

responding that way and you're not unique in experi in experiencing that

unique in experi in experiencing that situation in the first place it's

situation in the first place it's privileged as well as you write about in

privileged as well as you write about in your book it's a privileged response to

your book it's a privileged response to have yeah that you don't see across

have yeah that you don't see across other cultures as readily yeah it's

other cultures as readily yeah it's privilege and it also I think reflects

privilege and it also I think reflects the sense of agency we've got from

the sense of agency we've got from becoming essentially masters of our

becoming essentially masters of our worlds in ways that were not true for

worlds in ways that were not true for most of human history you know we

most of human history you know we as science and medicine goes we're

as science and medicine goes we're living longer we're generally a stronger

living longer we're generally a stronger species we can do a lot of incredible

species we can do a lot of incredible things we can move spacecraft to other

things we can move spacecraft to other planets you know it's it's ridiculous

planets you know it's it's ridiculous the number of things we can do

the number of things we can do and so as a result of that we kind of

and so as a result of that we kind of assume that that's the kind of control

assume that that's the kind of control we should have over every aspect of Our

we should have over every aspect of Our Lives if we can do big things that are

Lives if we can do big things that are amazing why can't we do small things

amazing why can't we do small things that are amazing and uh that's not the

that are amazing and uh that's not the way the world works and we mistake that

way the world works and we mistake that General sense of human control over the

General sense of human control over the world especially as we move away from

world especially as we move away from religion and become more more secular

religion and become more more secular we develop that sense of privilege and I

we develop that sense of privilege and I think cultures that that don't have that

think cultures that that don't have that to the same extent or that's still Hue

to the same extent or that's still Hue to religion more strongly you have much

to religion more strongly you have much more of a recognition that hey to some

more of a recognition that hey to some extent I'm kind of at the mercy of

extent I'm kind of at the mercy of whether it's the gods or however you

whether it's the gods or however you want to describe it and that makes you

want to describe it and that makes you more open to the idea that you don't

more open to the idea that you don't have control is that less westernized

have control is that less westernized culture so cultures with less money yes

culture so cultures with less money yes that's what that's why the privileged

that's what that's why the privileged aspect comes into it because I think the

aspect comes into it because I think the West

West where we are more

where we are more expectations again isn't it it comes

expectations again isn't it it comes back to almost everything yeah it's a

back to almost everything yeah it's a huge huge part of The Human Experience

we all need to lower our expectations or have realistic ones yeah yeah

have realistic ones yeah yeah there's going to be so many people that

there's going to be so many people that are listening that are that realize that

are listening that are that realize that you know they objectively realize that

you know they objectively realize that life comes in seasons

life comes in seasons and but the the difficulty comes is when

and but the the difficulty comes is when one of those Seasons ends yeah and we

one of those Seasons ends yeah and we kind of resist the ending and a lot of

kind of resist the ending and a lot of people I think will feel stuck when a

people I think will feel stuck when a seasonal chapter of life one of those

seasonal chapter of life one of those life Quakes you know I guess the start

life Quakes you know I guess the start of a life quick I guess is one when one

of a life quick I guess is one when one of those Seasons ends knowing from a

of those Seasons ends knowing from a intellectual from a strategy standpoint

intellectual from a strategy standpoint how to deal with it in that moment

how to deal with it in that moment because when a season of life ends

because when a season of life ends there's so much uncertainty and fear and

there's so much uncertainty and fear and you you can't always see the season to

you you can't always see the season to come

come um and that's where a lot of those

um and that's where a lot of those feelings come from he talked about

feelings come from he talked about acceptance being a key

acceptance being a key um path forward but is there anything

um path forward but is there anything else I really want to make sure we've

else I really want to make sure we've completed that is there anything else

completed that is there anything else that we can do to ex to be better at

that we can do to ex to be better at transitioning from one season of life to

transitioning from one season of life to the other yeah I so I love this

the other yeah I so I love this philosophy from uh the the rock musician

philosophy from uh the the rock musician Jeff Tweedy the front man of the band

Jeff Tweedy the front man of the band Wilco who's also a writer he writes he

Wilco who's also a writer he writes he does music he's a renaissance man

does music he's a renaissance man um he talks about that feeling of being

um he talks about that feeling of being stuck and and sometimes it's in

stuck and and sometimes it's in transitions but also it's it's when

transitions but also it's it's when you're chronically being forced to come

you're chronically being forced to come up with new ideas if you're a creative

up with new ideas if you're a creative and I think this applies to to

and I think this applies to to Transitions to new periods as well he

Transitions to new periods as well he talks about this idea that you know for

talks about this idea that you know for decades he has had to wake up and his

decades he has had to wake up and his bread and butter is to come up with

bread and butter is to come up with creative songs and to write good

creative songs and to write good passages that will then become part of a

passages that will then become part of a book

book that is asking a lot of people but what

that is asking a lot of people but what he does is he recognizes that Above All

he does is he recognizes that Above All Else

Else action is going to move him forward when

action is going to move him forward when you feel stuck action even if it's

you feel stuck action even if it's slightly sideways it may not be exactly

slightly sideways it may not be exactly where you want to go but the mere fact

where you want to go but the mere fact that you're acting gives you feedback

that you're acting gives you feedback that you're not stuck that you're moving

that you're not stuck that you're moving in the right direction

in the right direction and so he talks about Lo at least

and so he talks about Lo at least temporarily lowering your expectations

temporarily lowering your expectations to the ground and so he talks about

to the ground and so he talks about pouring out the bad ideas if he's

pouring out the bad ideas if he's writing a song he'll say what's the

writing a song he'll say what's the worst musical phrase I could write right

worst musical phrase I could write right now or what's the worst line for this

now or what's the worst line for this book let me come up with three of the

book let me come up with three of the worst lines ever and that's easy to do

worst lines ever and that's easy to do because you have no expectations it's

because you have no expectations it's not maximizing or satisficing it's just

not maximizing or satisficing it's just like the bare minimum

like the bare minimum and when you do that

and when you do that you get the ball rolling you show

you get the ball rolling you show yourself that you're not stuck and so

yourself that you're not stuck and so then what follows that as he describes

then what follows that as he describes it is the good stuff that's when you get

it is the good stuff that's when you get your good ideas because the you you know

your good ideas because the you you know the wheels are being greased and you're

the wheels are being greased and you're moving forward and I think that's true

moving forward and I think that's true in transition periods that we spend a

in transition periods that we spend a lot of time agonizing there's a lot of

lot of time agonizing there's a lot of dealing with the emotions which is fair

dealing with the emotions which is fair there's a lot of time strategizing

there's a lot of time strategizing but just acting is tremendously

but just acting is tremendously liberating even if the action itself

liberating even if the action itself doesn't bring measurable rewards in the

doesn't bring measurable rewards in the short term I was thinking as you're

short term I was thinking as you're saying that the con within the context

saying that the con within the context of dating so you've just come out of a

of dating so you've just come out of a horrific divorce you're sat at home on

horrific divorce you're sat at home on your own you can't even remember how to

your own you can't even remember how to date yeah and you're going to try and

date yeah and you're going to try and find someone that is as appealing as the

find someone that is as appealing as the the person that's just dumped you or

the person that's just dumped you or divorced you and they're hard to find so

divorced you and they're hard to find so you just procrastinate you kind of sit

you just procrastinate you kind of sit in the misery and that's where you feel

in the misery and that's where you feel stuck yeah if I apply the philosophy

stuck yeah if I apply the philosophy you've just said to bad ideas first what

you've just said to bad ideas first what I'd actually do is I'd just go on a date

I'd actually do is I'd just go on a date yeah and I'd say listen this is not

yeah and I'd say listen this is not going to be the husband but we're going

going to be the husband but we're going to start getting some practice and we're

to start getting some practice and we're going to start getting out there and

going to start getting out there and putting my makeup back on and whatever

putting my makeup back on and whatever and getting out there into the market

and getting out there into the market and you take you take a bad date just to

and you take you take a bad date just to get the ball rolling it's accurate yeah

get the ball rolling it's accurate yeah I mean a lot of people do that that's

I mean a lot of people do that that's that's the philosophy of the rebound

that's the philosophy of the rebound right that uh oh yeah yeah but but I

right that uh oh yeah yeah but but I think that's right I mean I think from

think that's right I mean I think from the perspective of the person who's been

the perspective of the person who's been dumped the re we always think about the

dumped the re we always think about the rebound from the perspective of the

rebound from the perspective of the person who suddenly discovers they're

person who suddenly discovers they're the next the next option yeah yeah you

the next the next option yeah yeah you know that's not a good sign yeah

know that's not a good sign yeah but if you are the person who's trying

but if you are the person who's trying to get back out there I think that's a

to get back out there I think that's a really great thing to do and it doesn't

really great thing to do and it doesn't have to be a romantic date it's just

have to be a romantic date it's just like go do something you know you're

like go do something you know you're gonna you'll wallow for a little bit

gonna you'll wallow for a little bit which is fine

which is fine but the best thing you can do is to as I

but the best thing you can do is to as I said move sideways moving forwards might

said move sideways moving forwards might be going on more dates to try and find

be going on more dates to try and find the next person it's not time for that

the next person it's not time for that yet it's time to just go and go to a

yet it's time to just go and go to a movie go and see a rock band like do

movie go and see a rock band like do whatever it is you like doing just so

whatever it is you like doing just so you're not doing nothing just act and

you're not doing nothing just act and action one of the great things it does

action one of the great things it does especially when you're you're ruminating

especially when you're you're ruminating and you're thinking about how bad and

and you're thinking about how bad and tough things are is action is a

tough things are is action is a phenomenal distraction like when you're

phenomenal distraction like when you're acting you're not thinking as much and

acting you're not thinking as much and so it's it's worth doing just to be

so it's it's worth doing just to be doing something that's why people

doing something that's why people rebound isn't it but it also gives us a

rebound isn't it but it also gives us a sense of meaning and purpose which is

sense of meaning and purpose which is often the thing that the rejection has

often the thing that the rejection has robbed us of so me going out and having

robbed us of so me going out and having a one-night stand don't no I don't

a one-night stand don't no I don't advise it I don't I'm not against it but

advise it I don't I'm not against it but I don't advise you I have no opinion on

I don't advise you I have no opinion on one night stands

one night stands um going out and getting having a

um going out and getting having a one-night stand maybe there is the

one-night stand maybe there is the reason I feel rejection is because I'm

reason I feel rejection is because I'm telling myself a story that I'm

telling myself a story that I'm unlovable or unwanted and going out and

unlovable or unwanted and going out and getting evidence that someone is

getting evidence that someone is interested in me can help with the the

interested in me can help with the the pain of the rejection and it's the same

pain of the rejection and it's the same within work if you've been fired from a

within work if you've been fired from a job yeah maybe you're telling yourself a

job yeah maybe you're telling yourself a story about your you know your

story about your you know your self-worth and just going out there and

self-worth and just going out there and doing some work

doing some work even if it's volunteering somewhere

even if it's volunteering somewhere could be

could be help ease the rejection because the

help ease the rejection because the rejection often is just a story isn't it

rejection often is just a story isn't it yeah I mean I think that's right I also

yeah I mean I think that's right I also think The Human Experience is

think The Human Experience is essentially bouncing like a ping pong

essentially bouncing like a ping pong ball

ball from one thing to the next where the

from one thing to the next where the next thing you do is trying to capture

next thing you do is trying to capture whatever feels like it's missing from

whatever feels like it's missing from the last thing and actually a lot of

the last thing and actually a lot of relationships when people jump from

relationships when people jump from relationship to relationship are about

relationship to relationship are about exactly that it's like when you when in

exactly that it's like when you when in a relationship ends you think about what

a relationship ends you think about what was the thing that was missing in that

was the thing that was missing in that one like Why didn't it work and you

one like Why didn't it work and you fixate on that with the next person now

fixate on that with the next person now there may have been some great things

there may have been some great things about the last person you forget to

about the last person you forget to focus on retaining those in the next

focus on retaining those in the next person and so then you're missing

person and so then you're missing something different in the next person

something different in the next person that you go to after that and so this is

that you go to after that and so this is what we do in jobs this is what we do in

what we do in jobs this is what we do in how we spend our time in Pursuits in

how we spend our time in Pursuits in um in dating we're constantly trying to

um in dating we're constantly trying to create a thing that feels like it's

create a thing that feels like it's missing because humans by Nature just

missing because humans by Nature just focus on deficits on losses on the

focus on deficits on losses on the negatives and so that sort of propels us

negatives and so that sort of propels us forward what's the better approach

forward what's the better approach um I mean you know the explicit one is

um I mean you know the explicit one is the sort of gratitude approach in saying

the sort of gratitude approach in saying what's working like that's the flip side

what's working like that's the flip side of this is to say whether it's about a

of this is to say whether it's about a relationship or a job what were the best

relationship or a job what were the best five things about that relationship that

five things about that relationship that I would want to retain in future if you

I would want to retain in future if you don't ask yourself that question

don't ask yourself that question it biases the decisions you make

it biases the decisions you make thereafter and I think it biases them in

thereafter and I think it biases them in a way that's really unproductive it's

a way that's really unproductive it's going to be true if you jump to a new

going to be true if you jump to a new job move to a new country or city or

job move to a new country or city or town any change it's worth asking what

town any change it's worth asking what do I not only what didn't work and do I

do I not only what didn't work and do I want to fix but also what did work and

want to fix but also what did work and do I want to retain

do I want to retain the best way to get unstuck is to

the best way to get unstuck is to simplify the problem as much as possible

simplify the problem as much as possible that way you can identify what the

that way you can identify what the sticking points are I call this

sticking points are I call this simplifying of the complex a friction

simplifying of the complex a friction audit what did you mean by that

audit what did you mean by that yeah so over the years I've I've met

yeah so over the years I've I've met people who

people who need much less time to make sense of

need much less time to make sense of complicated situations knowing what's

complicated situations knowing what's not important it's good to know what's

not important it's good to know what's important but I think a lot of us can do

important but I think a lot of us can do that what's really hard is being able to

that what's really hard is being able to say

say subtract that subtract that subtract

subtract that subtract that subtract that this is the thing this is the

that this is the thing this is the Nugget the kernel this is what I should

Nugget the kernel this is what I should be focusing on and so that's that's the

be focusing on and so that's that's the idea of of kind of the importance of

idea of of kind of the importance of subtracting

subtracting and there's a great book called subtract

and there's a great book called subtract by Lighty clots that's on this exact

by Lighty clots that's on this exact topic the friction audit itself

topic the friction audit itself is a sort of philosophical version of

is a sort of philosophical version of that idea where in business in

that idea where in business in particular I do a lot of business

particular I do a lot of business Consulting that works on on this this

Consulting that works on on this this friction audit process and I spent a

friction audit process and I spent a long time with companies that ask the

long time with companies that ask the question how do we how do we sweeten the

question how do we how do we sweeten the deal you know how do we make the product

deal you know how do we make the product better more attractive how do we stand

better more attractive how do we stand above the crowd

above the crowd and I started to realize that the return

and I started to realize that the return on investment to doing that is often

on investment to doing that is often minimal and it's expensive to do that

minimal and it's expensive to do that and it's really hard to do that in a

and it's really hard to do that in a competitive marketplace where everyone's

competitive marketplace where everyone's doing the same thing

doing the same thing but where you get your massive return is

but where you get your massive return is not by focusing on making the carrot

not by focusing on making the carrot more attractive it's by removing the

more attractive it's by removing the stick that stops people from doing what

stick that stops people from doing what you'd like them to do maybe it's

you'd like them to do maybe it's interacting with a customer service rep

interacting with a customer service rep maybe it's buying maybe it's making a

maybe it's buying maybe it's making a particular choice maybe it's

particular choice maybe it's understanding information whatever it is

understanding information whatever it is if you weed those out you sand them down

if you weed those out you sand them down so there's no longer friction there you

so there's no longer friction there you see tremendous rises in conversion often

see tremendous rises in conversion often for almost no cost it's just a matter of

for almost no cost it's just a matter of asking that particular frame of question

asking that particular frame of question and going through that friction audit

and going through that friction audit process and that friction audit process

process and that friction audit process I guess it starts with that question

I guess it starts with that question which is like what's getting in the way

which is like what's getting in the way yeah you can ask yourself that you can

yeah you can ask yourself that you can ask your team that question yeah we

ask your team that question yeah we probably don't ask ask our teams that

probably don't ask ask our teams that question enough just generally in

question enough just generally in business which is because we're always

business which is because we're always thinking about you know things we can

thinking about you know things we can add Maybe

add Maybe um something we can buy yeah equipment

um something we can buy yeah equipment we could buy someone we could hire

we could buy someone we could hire yeah I mean I when I think about this

yeah I mean I when I think about this certainly for teams it works really well

certainly for teams it works really well I also think for individual lives

I also think for individual lives everyone if you ask them this is really

everyone if you ask them this is really liberating I like to do this sometimes

liberating I like to do this sometimes what are the three things in your life

what are the three things in your life right now that cause you the most

right now that cause you the most friction it could be interactions with a

friction it could be interactions with a certain person it could be commuting if

certain person it could be commuting if you if you're traveling a lot it

you if you're traveling a lot it everyone's got a different answer to the

everyone's got a different answer to the question

question but imagine that those three things you

but imagine that those three things you could just eradicate from your life

could just eradicate from your life right now how much better would your

right now how much better would your life be and people often say like wait

life be and people often say like wait like a hundred percent better it'd be my

like a hundred percent better it'd be my life would be double as good as it is

life would be double as good as it is now and so the next thing is to say well

now and so the next thing is to say well that's a massive return on investment if

that's a massive return on investment if you can't eradicate them that's fine but

you can't eradicate them that's fine but at least sand them down minimize them

at least sand them down minimize them shrink them to the extent possible

shrink them to the extent possible that's where you should devote your

that's where you should devote your resources so really really powerful

resources so really really powerful intervention for individual lives but I

intervention for individual lives but I think also as you said in the workplace

think also as you said in the workplace as well such a good habit to have asking

as well such a good habit to have asking that question frequently not just to

that question frequently not just to yourself but also just to the people you

yourself but also just to the people you work with yes because you get such

work with yes because you get such surprising answers when you ask these

surprising answers when you ask these questions also to to your partner or to

questions also to to your partner or to your friend your close friends there's

your friend your close friends there's nothing better than being asked that

nothing better than being asked that question if someone asks you that the

question if someone asks you that the the degree of caring if if they actually

the degree of caring if if they actually seem like they want to be able to help

seem like they want to be able to help that will melt any barriers between you

that will melt any barriers between you and another person if you if you

and another person if you if you genuinely say what are the three things

genuinely say what are the three things right now that feel like they're the

right now that feel like they're the hardest most unpleasant things and how

hardest most unpleasant things and how can I help you you fix them is a

can I help you you fix them is a tremendously

tremendously uplifting connecting experience

uplifting connecting experience it made me reflect as you're saying that

it made me reflect as you're saying that on that is it the 61 rule in aviation

on that is it the 61 rule in aviation have you heard that uh yeah I think I

have you heard that uh yeah I think I know what you mean where if you're one

know what you mean where if you're one degree off for every x amount of miles

degree off for every x amount of miles you travel yeah you'll miss the airport

you travel yeah you'll miss the airport by

by 60 miles or something like that yeah so

60 miles or something like that yeah so just one degree in deviation from the

just one degree in deviation from the path which could be anything that's

path which could be anything that's causing friction in your relationship at

causing friction in your relationship at work and whatever you're doing means

work and whatever you're doing means that you'll miss the airport by 60 miles

that you'll miss the airport by 60 miles for every 100 miles you travel or

for every 100 miles you travel or something like that yeah and it kind of

something like that yeah and it kind of shows how one small unaddressed friction

shows how one small unaddressed friction point in your life could make you miss

point in your life could make you miss miss the Target in such a significant

miss the Target in such a significant way and by checking in by doing the

way and by checking in by doing the friction audit frequently hopefully we

friction audit frequently hopefully we can make sure we we stay on course in

can make sure we we stay on course in our lives I think about that a lot with

our lives I think about that a lot with my relationship because quite honestly

my relationship because quite honestly if I'm if I'm away on business or I'm

if I'm if I'm away on business or I'm just getting caught up in my life and I

just getting caught up in my life and I don't

don't do a bit of a friction order in our

do a bit of a friction order in our relationship

relationship you know you get a couple of weeks in

you know you get a couple of weeks in and I look over at her in the kitchen

and I look over at her in the kitchen and something's wrong yeah I don't know

and something's wrong yeah I don't know what's wrong

what's wrong but something's wrong and it's always

but something's wrong and it's always because I haven't done we haven't had

because I haven't done we haven't had like a conversation in a while about

like a conversation in a while about like something yeah we haven't checked

like something yeah we haven't checked in yeah I think it's it's huge I

in yeah I think it's it's huge I actually talk about this in the book

actually talk about this in the book that 61 idea

that 61 idea um oh so you know what it is because I

um oh so you know what it is because I like I like destroyed it there no no no

like I like destroyed it there no no no no no no so I don't talk about it as the

no no no so I don't talk about it as the 61 but I talk about the the Y2K bug that

61 but I talk about the the Y2K bug that people were worried about around the

people were worried about around the turn of the century to 2000 there was

turn of the century to 2000 there was this concern that all these computers

this concern that all these computers would crash because they all had the

would crash because they all had the two-digit uh number associated with the

two-digit uh number associated with the year so in 1999 it said 99 but when we

year so in 1999 it said 99 but when we ticked over to 2000 it went zero zero

ticked over to 2000 it went zero zero and a lot of computers would think it

and a lot of computers would think it was 1900 instead of two thousand this

was 1900 instead of two thousand this was a concern that planes would fall out

was a concern that planes would fall out of the sky and nuclear power plants

of the sky and nuclear power plants would explode and all this

would explode and all this but they first identified this problem

but they first identified this problem in the in the 60s it was a guy at IBM

in the in the 60s it was a guy at IBM named Bob bema

named Bob bema and I think it's bemer or bema

and I think it's bemer or bema who um who was like hey we should figure

who um who was like hey we should figure this out like it's not a big deal yet

this out like it's not a big deal yet but I think computers are going to be

but I think computers are going to be big they're going to be a lot of them

big they're going to be a lot of them around by the year 2000. let's deal with

around by the year 2000. let's deal with this in the 60s where it's easy to re

this in the 60s where it's easy to re reprogram the few computers we have

reprogram the few computers we have let's make it a four digit number or do

let's make it a four digit number or do whatever we need to do in the end

whatever we need to do in the end governments in the 90s spent billions of

governments in the 90s spent billions of dollars because that one degree off in

dollars because that one degree off in 1960 that no one bothered to correct

1960 that no one bothered to correct ended up being the 60

ended up being the 60 by the time we got to the year 2000 so

by the time we got to the year 2000 so these these little things that niggle

these these little things that niggle that we don't deal with end up getting

that we don't deal with end up getting worse and worse and worse and it's so

worse and worse and worse and it's so true about relationships they compound

true about relationships they compound negatively against us the first my

negatively against us the first my favorite book I ever read when I started

favorite book I ever read when I started reading more was I think it's I think

reading more was I think it's I think it's called Jeff Olson the slight Edge

it's called Jeff Olson the slight Edge he talks exactly about that how about

he talks exactly about that how about the things that are easy not to do

the things that are easy not to do like

like saving five pounds or brushing your

saving five pounds or brushing your teeth

teeth um other things that end up compounding

um other things that end up compounding against us all for us in our lives and

against us all for us in our lives and having the most significant impact

having the most significant impact um because we ignore those things we

um because we ignore those things we don't think they're important yeah um

don't think they're important yeah um and that's why I think of friction order

and that's why I think of friction order it's not it's not

it's not it's not a waste of time it's often sweating the

a waste of time it's often sweating the smallest things that Garners the biggest

smallest things that Garners the biggest results yeah as you know they're a

results yeah as you know they're a sponsor of the podcast and I'm one of

sponsor of the podcast and I'm one of the investors in the company my

the investors in the company my relationship with Hill started with the

relationship with Hill started with the ready to drink range which I have here

ready to drink range which I have here in front of me on the table why did I

in front of me on the table why did I choose to drink this

choose to drink this first and foremost convenience I'm not

first and foremost convenience I'm not the type of person that wants to spend a

the type of person that wants to spend a huge amount of time whisking or mixing

huge amount of time whisking or mixing things together and I don't typically

things together and I don't typically have a huge amount of time during the

have a huge amount of time during the day and there are some days not always

day and there are some days not always but there are some days where because of

but there are some days where because of the limited amount of time I have the

the limited amount of time I have the choices that I would ordinarily reach

choices that I would ordinarily reach for aren't necessarily the most healthy

for aren't necessarily the most healthy choices they're certainly not

choices they're certainly not nutritionally complete so as soon as I

nutritionally complete so as soon as I discovered who all existed because of a

discovered who all existed because of a wonderful guy who worked one of my teams

wonderful guy who worked one of my teams in Manchester walked past me wearing a

in Manchester walked past me wearing a heel t-shirt I inquired what it was he

heel t-shirt I inquired what it was he told me what it was and then I bought

told me what it was and then I bought the ready to drink bottles into the

the ready to drink bottles into the office it was a game changer for me and

office it was a game changer for me and it meant that on those days where I'm

it meant that on those days where I'm tempted to reach for Less nutritionally

tempted to reach for Less nutritionally complete options or less healthy food

complete options or less healthy food options I have something right

options I have something right underneath my desk in the fridge that I

underneath my desk in the fridge that I can reach for that allows me to remain

can reach for that allows me to remain in line with my health and nutrition

in line with my health and nutrition goals and Tesco have now increased their

goals and Tesco have now increased their listings with hewell so you can now get

listings with hewell so you can now get the RTD ready to drink in Tesco

the RTD ready to drink in Tesco expresses all across the UK

expresses all across the UK career hot streaks yeah this I I Love

career hot streaks yeah this I I Love This research these these researchers

This research these these researchers were asking this question is there

were asking this question is there something if we look at the course of

something if we look at the course of thousands of careers in different areas

thousands of careers in different areas creatives business people and so on

creatives business people and so on scientists

scientists can you predict when we're going to have

can you predict when we're going to have the best periods in our careers that's

the best periods in our careers that's basically what they're asking they call

basically what they're asking they call this a hot streak you know like when you

this a hot streak you know like when you if you're an academic and you publish

if you're an academic and you publish your five most high impact papers or if

your five most high impact papers or if you're a filmmaker and you have five

you're a filmmaker and you have five films that are seen as your Canon when

films that are seen as your Canon when is that going to happen can we predict

is that going to happen can we predict that is there a way to manufacture that

that is there a way to manufacture that if I'm a filmmaker or a scientist and

if I'm a filmmaker or a scientist and they they identify these two processes

they they identify these two processes that need to happen in precisely this

that need to happen in precisely this order

order one of them is is known as exploration

one of them is is known as exploration and in Exploration you go far and wide

and in Exploration you go far and wide you basically you have a default of yes

you basically you have a default of yes which means that when someone comes to

which means that when someone comes to you with an opportunity you're like yeah

you with an opportunity you're like yeah sure why not I give a talk to freshmen

sure why not I give a talk to freshmen at NYU and they should as freshmen that

at NYU and they should as freshmen that time in your life you should be an

time in your life you should be an Explorer you don't know what you're

Explorer you don't know what you're going to end up doing with your life you

going to end up doing with your life you could stumble on something wonderful you

could stumble on something wonderful you should say yes to everything and uh

should say yes to everything and uh during this phase you know they they

during this phase you know they they talk about Jackson Pollock the artist

talk about Jackson Pollock the artist who ended up developing his drip

who ended up developing his drip technique that he became famous for

technique that he became famous for before he did that he spent a number of

before he did that he spent a number of years trying five or six different other

years trying five or six different other techniques Peter Jackson who made the

techniques Peter Jackson who made the Lord of the Rings and Hobbit films and

Lord of the Rings and Hobbit films and became you know a Titan for those films

became you know a Titan for those films he was doing horror and all sorts of

he was doing horror and all sorts of other stuff before that these were their

other stuff before that these were their exploratory periods

exploratory periods but at some point that yes default has

but at some point that yes default has to become a no default where you say hey

to become a no default where you say hey I've been trying these different things

I've been trying these different things I've been exploring it's time to exploit

I've been exploring it's time to exploit that's the second phase and during that

that's the second phase and during that phase you say

phase you say hey of those five or six things I was

hey of those five or six things I was exploring this one looks like it has the

exploring this one looks like it has the most promise

most promise I'm going to pour my heart and soul into

I'm going to pour my heart and soul into that thing for a little while and see

that thing for a little while and see what comes of it so for Jackson Pollock

what comes of it so for Jackson Pollock it was the drip painting for Peter

it was the drip painting for Peter Jackson it's these big Epic Fantasy

Jackson it's these big Epic Fantasy films

films and what happens then is you've

and what happens then is you've considered the options you pick the best

considered the options you pick the best one and then you make them Absolute most

one and then you make them Absolute most you can make of it you squeeze all the

you can make of it you squeeze all the juice out of the orange

juice out of the orange and that's when those successful hot

and that's when those successful hot Street periods arise when you go Broad

Street periods arise when you go Broad and then you go really narrow and then

and then you go really narrow and then when you feel stuck again you go broad

when you feel stuck again you go broad again and then you go narrow and you

again and then you go narrow and you expand and you contract throughout your

expand and you contract throughout your life professionally and I think

life professionally and I think personally as well that's that's I think

personally as well that's that's I think a path to a good life

a path to a good life so people that might have been doing the

so people that might have been doing the same thing for

same thing for a couple of decades or a decade I'm

a couple of decades or a decade I'm probably not gonna stumble across a

probably not gonna stumble across a career hot streak because they're

career hot streak because they're missing that experimentation and that

missing that experimentation and that exploration yeah I think that's right

exploration yeah I think that's right and you know the best evidence for this

and you know the best evidence for this for me at least personally was

for me at least personally was um when I give this talk to the Freshman

um when I give this talk to the Freshman I show them the four emails that I've

I show them the four emails that I've got in the last 20 years that changed my

got in the last 20 years that changed my life and my instinct I actually show

life and my instinct I actually show them I redact some of the information

them I redact some of the information but I show them the images of these

but I show them the images of these emails that arrived in my inbox and I

emails that arrived in my inbox and I remember with each one when they arrived

remember with each one when they arrived I was like I'm so busy I there's no way

I was like I'm so busy I there's no way I can do this it would be an email from

I can do this it would be an email from someone saying for example before I

someone saying for example before I wrote my first book an agent reached out

wrote my first book an agent reached out and said I just read a piece about some

and said I just read a piece about some of your research I think there might be

of your research I think there might be a book in this what do you think my

a book in this what do you think my first my first instinct was like

first my first instinct was like I don't have time for this I I'm so busy

I don't have time for this I I'm so busy I'm a first year professor

I'm a first year professor but I was in this exploratory period so

but I was in this exploratory period so I ended up saying yes totally changed my

I ended up saying yes totally changed my professional life I have a few others

professional life I have a few others that are like that and those four are

that are like that and those four are sitting in a pool with thousands that

sitting in a pool with thousands that went nowhere but if you don't have that

went nowhere but if you don't have that yes default for a certain period of time

yes default for a certain period of time you're never going to find those four

you're never going to find those four gold nuggets in that that otherwise kind

gold nuggets in that that otherwise kind of silty mess and so I think it's a

of silty mess and so I think it's a really important default to have at

really important default to have at certain times in your life we talked

certain times in your life we talked before we started recording about some

before we started recording about some of the subjects that you love talking

of the subjects that you love talking about and creativity was one of them

about and creativity was one of them when we think about creativity a lot of

when we think about creativity a lot of people think about this the process of

people think about this the process of coming up with a new idea and

coming up with a new idea and um by trial and error I've tried to

um by trial and error I've tried to figure out the conditions which allow me

figure out the conditions which allow me to come up with my best ideas what I've

to come up with my best ideas what I've I mean I've got a couple of hypotheses

I mean I've got a couple of hypotheses around when I'm you know when I'm at the

around when I'm you know when I'm at the gym I seem to come up with all my best

gym I seem to come up with all my best ideas or

ideas or um when I have

um when I have space yeah but the process of coming up

space yeah but the process of coming up with an idea if I was to if you were

with an idea if I was to if you were advising me as a consultant on how to

advising me as a consultant on how to get my teams to think of better ideas or

get my teams to think of better ideas or to come up with our best ideas what

to come up with our best ideas what would you what would you advise us to do

would you what would you advise us to do yeah so here's a long-term strategy that

yeah so here's a long-term strategy that I think is really valuable that I've

I think is really valuable that I've used and I've found very helpful I have

used and I've found very helpful I have several documents

several documents that are about 20 years old one of them

that are about 20 years old one of them is called research ideas

is called research ideas one is called book ideas one is called

one is called book ideas one is called teaching ideas

teaching ideas and every time I see anything that's

and every time I see anything that's even remotely interesting to me that's

even remotely interesting to me that's related to one of those I put it in one

related to one of those I put it in one of those documents depending on what it

of those documents depending on what it is like for teaching ideas it'll be a

is like for teaching ideas it'll be a great ad campaign that I want to share

great ad campaign that I want to share with my students if you do that for 20

with my students if you do that for 20 years that document gets really really

years that document gets really really long and so my documents now those are

long and so my documents now those are some of them are I think like 40 or 50

some of them are I think like 40 or 50 pages long just line after line of links

pages long just line after line of links and ideas and short descriptions of

and ideas and short descriptions of things that I've come across that are

things that I've come across that are useful if I go back to that it does two

useful if I go back to that it does two things one thing is it shows me over

things one thing is it shows me over time what I'm interested in because

time what I'm interested in because sometimes it's hard in the moment to say

sometimes it's hard in the moment to say I don't know what am I generally

I don't know what am I generally interested in but I have a 20-year

interested in but I have a 20-year record of what I'm interested in the

record of what I'm interested in the other thing it does is it allows you to

other thing it does is it allows you to do what I think of as the best the

do what I think of as the best the single best reproducible process for

single best reproducible process for coming up with creative ideas which is

coming up with creative ideas which is called recombination

called recombination so I have this illusion that the best

so I have this illusion that the best ideas are radically original that they

ideas are radically original that they stand on their own they're different

stand on their own they're different from anything that came before they are

from anything that came before they are Paradigm shifts Everything Changes but

Paradigm shifts Everything Changes but even when you when you look at those

even when you when you look at those ideas that seem that way and you

ideas that seem that way and you interrogate them and you trace them back

interrogate them and you trace them back far enough they are almost always a

far enough they are almost always a combination of old ideas or a

combination of old ideas or a recombination so the the best example of

recombination so the the best example of this that I came across and I talk about

this that I came across and I talk about this in the book is um when you ask

this in the book is um when you ask musicians who is the most original

musicians who is the most original musician of the 20th century one of the

musician of the 20th century one of the most common responses is Bob Dylan

most common responses is Bob Dylan but if you look deeply

but if you look deeply Dylan certainly had a lot of elements

Dylan certainly had a lot of elements that seemed like they were different

that seemed like they were different from what other people were doing but he

from what other people were doing but he himself has said oh yeah I was borrowing

himself has said oh yeah I was borrowing from this tradition and that tradition

from this tradition and that tradition and the folk tradition and this artist

and the folk tradition and this artist and that artist and then when you look

and that artist and then when you look at the DNA of his music there's so much

at the DNA of his music there's so much evidence for what came before it's true

evidence for what came before it's true in business ideas as well one of the

in business ideas as well one of the things I asked my students to do

things I asked my students to do is um come up with a radically original

is um come up with a radically original idea in business that you've seen tell

idea in business that you've seen tell me about a company that's doing

me about a company that's doing something radically original and then

something radically original and then I'll say they'll come up with something

I'll say they'll come up with something and then I'll say all right tell me what

and then I'll say all right tell me what is similar to that that came before it

is similar to that that came before it and they can always come up with

and they can always come up with something

something so is it radically original or is it

so is it radically original or is it just a new combination of elements that

just a new combination of elements that existed before and I think that

existed before and I think that if you have this long document randomly

if you have this long document randomly pick idea three and idea 12 and see if

pick idea three and idea 12 and see if you can combine them and there you might

you can combine them and there you might have a business or an idea that's useful

have a business or an idea that's useful we could also do that collectively I

we could also do that collectively I guess as a as a team and as a company we

guess as a as a team and as a company we can create a an internal ideas document

can create a an internal ideas document which everyone can kind of contribute to

which everyone can kind of contribute to in terms of if we're thinking you know

in terms of if we're thinking you know ways to make

ways to make ways to make this podcast or one of my

ways to make this podcast or one of my businesses more successful just dumping

businesses more successful just dumping in ideas that we're kind of on the

in ideas that we're kind of on the someday shelf yeah um

someday shelf yeah um when we revisit that document in the

when we revisit that document in the future we can go okay so we were trying

future we can go okay so we were trying to find a way to get

to find a way to get listeners to share the podcast more and

listeners to share the podcast more and oh someone found a tool over here that

oh someone found a tool over here that does something else for this part of the

does something else for this part of the building maybe we could combine these

building maybe we could combine these two things and use that to share the

two things and use that to share the podcast more here's a tweak to that I

podcast more here's a tweak to that I think that's a great idea but if you

think that's a great idea but if you make it a collected document people are

make it a collected document people are going to feel like the ideas have to be

going to feel like the ideas have to be a certain level of goodness to share

a certain level of goodness to share them okay so start alone everyone has

them okay so start alone everyone has their own document and then you combine

their own document and then you combine it at some point ah nice that's much

it at some point ah nice that's much better for in general that idea of

better for in general that idea of brainstorming is the first step great if

brainstorming is the first step great if you do it on your own you never want to

you do it on your own you never want to start by thinking in a group group is

start by thinking in a group group is going to start alone yeah people

going to start alone yeah people converge they're scared yeah all of

converge they're scared yeah all of those things do you do much of that do

those things do you do much of that do you do much of um sort of corporate

you do much of um sort of corporate Consulting yeah

Consulting yeah quite a lot what typically tends to be

quite a lot what typically tends to be the symptoms or the challenge that

the symptoms or the challenge that corporations are typically stuck with

corporations are typically stuck with yeah so I mean not all the Consulting I

yeah so I mean not all the Consulting I do is about being stuck specifically but

do is about being stuck specifically but that's often a way of framing why you

that's often a way of framing why you would get a consultant in right there's

would get a consultant in right there's something you want to change and you

something you want to change and you want to fix it so you very very often

want to fix it so you very very often it's a company that's experienced a

it's a company that's experienced a change in situation like the cost of our

change in situation like the cost of our raw materials has gone up what do we do

raw materials has gone up what do we do now or there's a thing that we needed

now or there's a thing that we needed and we can't get that anymore or the

and we can't get that anymore or the legislation has changed and the

legislation has changed and the government now doesn't let us do this

government now doesn't let us do this key part of what we used to do so a lot

key part of what we used to do so a lot of it ends up being quite operational

of it ends up being quite operational when it's about stuckness it's like how

when it's about stuckness it's like how do we pivot how do we figure out a way

do we pivot how do we figure out a way around this situation

around this situation um

um but the the Consulting briefs are

but the the Consulting briefs are incredibly Broad and Vary which is again

incredibly Broad and Vary which is again why I love it so much because no two

why I love it so much because no two gigs is the same pivoting then yeah

gigs is the same pivoting then yeah there's a lot of pivoting and a lot of

there's a lot of pivoting and a lot of figuring out how to change and also what

figuring out how to change and also what what doesn't need to change I think

what doesn't need to change I think often the instinct is

often the instinct is yeah I did some work with a company that

yeah I did some work with a company that makes denim jeans and they were like

makes denim jeans and they were like well Cotton's just gone up dramatically

well Cotton's just gone up dramatically in price and so as a result it's more

in price and so as a result it's more expensive to make our genes what do we

expensive to make our genes what do we do and

do and they're like we need to just overhaul

they're like we need to just overhaul the whole process I was like I don't

the whole process I was like I don't know I don't think you do I think what

know I don't think you do I think what you need to do is frame the rise in

you need to do is frame the rise in price in a way that people don't bulk

price in a way that people don't bulk and run away you know you've got a long

and run away you know you've got a long strong strong relationship with a lot of

strong strong relationship with a lot of customers over time you have a strong

customers over time you have a strong brand identity and so on

brand identity and so on so no don't throw the baby out with the

so no don't throw the baby out with the bath water let's just figure out how we

bath water let's just figure out how we can sell the idea that maybe things are

can sell the idea that maybe things are just a bit more expensive now and and

just a bit more expensive now and and against a backdrop where everything's

against a backdrop where everything's more expensive now so often it's about

more expensive now so often it's about minimizing change as it relates to these

minimizing change as it relates to these hundred hundred ways to get unstuck do

hundred hundred ways to get unstuck do you have any

you have any any that are your your favorite all that

any that are your your favorite all that people are seemed to be most receptive

people are seemed to be most receptive to that are maybe more on the original

to that are maybe more on the original side of things some of them are very

side of things some of them are very narrow and specific like case studies

narrow and specific like case studies that I talk about but a lot of them are

that I talk about but a lot of them are sort of Concepts like the idea that when

sort of Concepts like the idea that when things get hard that's when creativity

things get hard that's when creativity begins like you've got to let things get

begins like you've got to let things get hard and we're not creative until we

hard and we're not creative until we struggle is is really important it's

struggle is is really important it's very liberating because the what it does

very liberating because the what it does is it takes the naive theory of what it

is it takes the naive theory of what it is to struggle to be creative it turns

is to struggle to be creative it turns it on its head and says hey you're going

it on its head and says hey you're going in exactly the right direction it's the

in exactly the right direction it's the hardship that Heralds the good stuff so

hardship that Heralds the good stuff so if it's not hard yet that's the problem

if it's not hard yet that's the problem you've got to keep going until it gets

you've got to keep going until it gets there

there um and I a lot of people find that quite

um and I a lot of people find that quite liberating I've been playing around in

liberating I've been playing around in the notes of my phone with this idea I

the notes of my phone with this idea I was trying to find a way to put up my

was trying to find a way to put up my stories over the last two days and like

stories over the last two days and like I'd got to this point about how the the

I'd got to this point about how the the Rarity of the amount of people that

Rarity of the amount of people that overcome the challenge is a directly

overcome the challenge is a directly correlates to the Rarity of the rewards

correlates to the Rarity of the rewards behind the door so when you when

behind the door so when you when something is sorry the level of

something is sorry the level of difficulty is a signal of how many

difficulty is a signal of how many people gave up at that exact moment yeah

people gave up at that exact moment yeah and then logically if you pursue and

and then logically if you pursue and overcome the difficulty you'll get

overcome the difficulty you'll get through that door

through that door fewer people got the rewards behind that

fewer people got the rewards behind that door and you're seeing a very very

door and you're seeing a very very similar thing yeah you're right it helps

similar thing yeah you're right it helps you reframe what difficulty is

you reframe what difficulty is difficulty isn't a a signal to to turn

difficulty isn't a a signal to to turn back it's a signal that if you keep

back it's a signal that if you keep going the rewards just got greater yeah

going the rewards just got greater yeah and I also think it's a question of how

and I also think it's a question of how difficult is this for other people right

difficult is this for other people right so being creative is hard it's it's hard

so being creative is hard it's it's hard for everyone even really good good

for everyone even really good good creatives are they get to a point where

creatives are they get to a point where it's kind of gets gets difficult because

it's kind of gets gets difficult because you're trying to come up with something

you're trying to come up with something out of whole cloth that's new yeah and

out of whole cloth that's new yeah and so that's not easy for anyone yeah if

so that's not easy for anyone yeah if there's something that most people can

there's something that most people can do really easily and you're struggling

do really easily and you're struggling with it that's very different from doing

with it that's very different from doing something that's hard and persevering

something that's hard and persevering through that hardship so I think it's

through that hardship so I think it's always important to ask in the

always important to ask in the background

background am I

am I by finding this hard is that just like

by finding this hard is that just like part of the course of doing this thing

part of the course of doing this thing or am I finding it hard because I should

or am I finding it hard because I should be putting my mind and attention

be putting my mind and attention elsewhere maybe I'm just not very good

elsewhere maybe I'm just not very good at this thing and I would be better at

at this thing and I would be better at spending my time doing something else

spending my time doing something else is there anything else in your work

is there anything else in your work because you're you're such a

because you're you're such a multi-faceted guy you mean you've

multi-faceted guy you mean you've written about a variety of different

written about a variety of different subject Matters from

subject Matters from how screens are

how screens are um harming us and our addiction to these

um harming us and our addiction to these mobile devices to um your first book

mobile devices to um your first book which sounds a lot on

which sounds a lot on sort of cognitive biases and psychology

sort of cognitive biases and psychology and then this book about getting unstuck

and then this book about getting unstuck in all the psychology around that is

in all the psychology around that is there anything else that

there anything else that we we should have talked about that you

we we should have talked about that you think is valuable to my audience my

think is valuable to my audience my audience or a group of people that are

audience or a group of people that are trying to get better in their lives

trying to get better in their lives they're trying to get unstuck trying to

they're trying to get unstuck trying to get close to their potential yeah

get close to their potential yeah I'll say one thing I've been doing a lot

I'll say one thing I've been doing a lot of research lately on on Nostalgia on

of research lately on on Nostalgia on the concept of nostalgia

the concept of nostalgia um I I think in many ways it's the most

um I I think in many ways it's the most powerful backward facing emotion we have

powerful backward facing emotion we have that as you get older you you start to

that as you get older you you start to miss things that are no longer existing

miss things that are no longer existing in your life that you loved at the time

in your life that you loved at the time and that you think back on really fondly

and that you think back on really fondly and sometimes you even misremember them

and sometimes you even misremember them and you think of them as better than

and you think of them as better than they actually were at the time but it's

they actually were at the time but it's an incredibly powerful emotion and um

an incredibly powerful emotion and um one of the things we've been finding in

one of the things we've been finding in this research is that the things that

this research is that the things that make you nostalgic are often at the time

make you nostalgic are often at the time what you think of as kind of mundane

what you think of as kind of mundane routines like I I really miss grad

routines like I I really miss grad school I went to Princeton and loved it

school I went to Princeton and loved it and had a great five years there but I

and had a great five years there but I don't miss the like momentous events I

don't miss the like momentous events I don't miss graduation I don't miss

don't miss graduation I don't miss ceremonies I don't miss these big

ceremonies I don't miss these big culminations I miss the really mundane

culminations I miss the really mundane stuff I miss walking this one path that

stuff I miss walking this one path that I used to take in the summer between my

I used to take in the summer between my dorm room and the office and I did it

dorm room and the office and I did it hundreds of times if I could just do

hundreds of times if I could just do that walk one more time and so I think

that walk one more time and so I think there's a kind of message there that we

there's a kind of message there that we often mistake

often mistake these momentous things that we go

these momentous things that we go through for being like what life is

through for being like what life is really about but actually a lot of it is

really about but actually a lot of it is the kind of mundane routine stuff that's

the kind of mundane routine stuff that's every day and the reason I like that

every day and the reason I like that idea so much is because it suggests that

idea so much is because it suggests that um you can ring tremendous value out of

um you can ring tremendous value out of things that might seem

things that might seem trivial or not that important if you

trivial or not that important if you recognize that like it's changed the way

recognize that like it's changed the way I live my life I cultivate so many

I live my life I cultivate so many little routines out of every day because

little routines out of every day because I know when I look back that's the stuff

I know when I look back that's the stuff that's going to really

that's going to really feel full of reward and meaning I think

feel full of reward and meaning I think we try too hard sometimes to make

we try too hard sometimes to make everything bigger and better and more

everything bigger and better and more kind of emotionally explosive and so

kind of emotionally explosive and so that's uh I've always found that at

that's uh I've always found that at least since discovering that it's been a

least since discovering that it's been a really powerful idea for me

really powerful idea for me I think about that you just think about

I think about that you just think about Nostalgia relationships I've had

Nostalgia relationships I've had companies we've been in and you know

companies we've been in and you know worked in for many many years and you

worked in for many many years and you look back at the the early days you go I

look back at the the early days you go I wish we could have that again but it's

wish we could have that again but it's but you can't I can't quite easily put

but you can't I can't quite easily put my finger on exactly what what it was

my finger on exactly what what it was other than

other than of excitement yeah you know a couple of

of excitement yeah you know a couple of moments where I have flashbacks of good

moments where I have flashbacks of good moments we had but there's nothing to

moments we had but there's nothing to say we can't create those little good

say we can't create those little good moments of celebrating together in a bar

moments of celebrating together in a bar yeah now and I mean there are three

yeah now and I mean there are three components to well-being there's

components to well-being there's anticipation before something happens

anticipation before something happens there's momentary when it's happening

there's momentary when it's happening and then there's retrospection after

and then there's retrospection after it's happened think about a trip you

it's happened think about a trip you take if you're really excited for a trip

take if you're really excited for a trip I'm going to Europe this summer and I'm

I'm going to Europe this summer and I'm very excited about it a particular trip

very excited about it a particular trip that I'm going to be taking and I think

that I'm going to be taking and I think our job as humans in sort of respect of

our job as humans in sort of respect of all the time and energy we put into

all the time and energy we put into living Our Lives is try to maximize

living Our Lives is try to maximize across those three kinds of well-being

across those three kinds of well-being the sum of those three

the sum of those three so the fun stuff book it in as early as

so the fun stuff book it in as early as possible so you start enjoying it today

possible so you start enjoying it today before it's happened and then in the

before it's happened and then in the moment which tends to be very brief

moment which tends to be very brief right the moments themselves are brief

right the moments themselves are brief most of the value comes in thinking back

most of the value comes in thinking back for the hopefully decades that come

for the hopefully decades that come afterwards so you're saying get your

afterwards so you're saying get your phones out yeah yeah exactly just spend

phones out yeah yeah exactly just spend every minute on your phone take a photo

every minute on your phone take a photo of everything yeah spend the whole time

of everything yeah spend the whole time at Coachella just videoing just videoing

at Coachella just videoing just videoing it you don't actually want to experience

it you don't actually want to experience it you just want to look back on it yeah

it you just want to look back on it yeah it's fantastic advice thank you Adam so

it's fantastic advice thank you Adam so much for your time we have a closing

much for your time we have a closing tradition on this podcast where the last

tradition on this podcast where the last guest leaves a question

guest leaves a question who they're going to be leaving it for

who they're going to be leaving it for I don't get to see it until I open the

I don't get to see it until I open the book

book foreign

that's been left for you is what is one belief or behavior that has

what is one belief or behavior that has positively impacted your life in the

positively impacted your life in the past 12 months

so I've spent a lot of time over the last few years critiquing Tech and

last few years critiquing Tech and that's what a lot of my work has been

that's what a lot of my work has been about because I think it's

about because I think it's it's technology generally and Screen

it's technology generally and Screen based Tech we spend a lot of our time on

based Tech we spend a lot of our time on it and I don't think it always brings us

it and I don't think it always brings us the rewards we'd hope

the rewards we'd hope um and my instinct when I first

um and my instinct when I first discovered generative AI chat GPT and

discovered generative AI chat GPT and and the other models that are

and the other models that are proliferating

proliferating was similar with sort of this this

was similar with sort of this this negativity it's going to steal jobs it's

negativity it's going to steal jobs it's going to be problematic

going to be problematic um but I I sort of adopted a more

um but I I sort of adopted a more experimental mindset and I've started

experimental mindset and I've started using it more and I've started using it

using it more and I've started using it more than anything as a kind of

more than anything as a kind of brainstorming partner it's like instead

brainstorming partner it's like instead of having a Brain Trust of 10 very smart

of having a Brain Trust of 10 very smart friends who all think a bit differently

friends who all think a bit differently about something chat GPT is like

about something chat GPT is like billions of people all thinking

billions of people all thinking differently about things and you can

differently about things and you can keep asking it hey give me another idea

keep asking it hey give me another idea give me another idea imagine that one's

give me another idea imagine that one's wrong let's tweak that so I think what's

wrong let's tweak that so I think what's changed for me is

changed for me is um I am trying to embrace these external

um I am trying to embrace these external things that are changing around us a

things that are changing around us a little bit more because my natural

little bit more because my natural instinct is to say let's preserve what's

instinct is to say let's preserve what's so special about being humans and try to

so special about being humans and try to Stave off all of that infringing effect

Stave off all of that infringing effect that comes from uh from from these

that comes from uh from from these changes but I

changes but I I'm finding that very rewarding because

I'm finding that very rewarding because I'm finding the good I can still say no

I'm finding the good I can still say no to the bad but I'm finding a lot of good

to the bad but I'm finding a lot of good I think there's a bit of a hangover

I think there's a bit of a hangover from the social media era yeah and how

from the social media era yeah and how that played out where there was this new

that played out where there was this new technology we all rushed into it

technology we all rushed into it thinking it was

thinking it was um all positive and as the experiment

um all positive and as the experiment played out we realized that there were

played out we realized that there were there are unintended consequences yeah

there are unintended consequences yeah so I think we've come into this real

so I think we've come into this real next technological shift with the

next technological shift with the unintended consequences mindset

unintended consequences mindset I think that's right I think that's

I think that's right I think that's exactly right and and I think the the

exactly right and and I think the the pendulum shifts I remember when I was

pendulum shifts I remember when I was was uh talking to people about the last

was uh talking to people about the last book irresistible about screens and a

book irresistible about screens and a lot of them were like this is 2013-14

lot of them were like this is 2013-14 they were saying things like but

they were saying things like but everyone loves Tech like why would we

everyone loves Tech like why would we even consider the problems why would you

even consider the problems why would you write a book about that it's a storm and

write a book about that it's a storm and a teacup the idea that people would were

a teacup the idea that people would were not criticizing Tech 10 years ago in the

not criticizing Tech 10 years ago in the way they are now especially screen Tech

way they are now especially screen Tech surprises a lot of people but I had way

surprises a lot of people but I had way more pushback early on

more pushback early on and then in the the say three or four

and then in the the say three or four years that followed the pendulum swung

years that followed the pendulum swung the other way to critiquing and I think

the other way to critiquing and I think now hopefully we're kind of

now hopefully we're kind of leveling out a little bit but I think

leveling out a little bit but I think you're right there is a hangover from

you're right there is a hangover from the the social media era

the the social media era I think I'm quite scared about AR I mean

I think I'm quite scared about AR I mean we use it in our businesses but um I

we use it in our businesses but um I think the social media era has has maybe

think the social media era has has maybe rightly made us think before we go all

rightly made us think before we go all in about consequences and it's funny

in about consequences and it's funny seeing the debates in Congress and with

seeing the debates in Congress and with the CEOs taking place before a lot of

the CEOs taking place before a lot of this stuff has been built and deployed

this stuff has been built and deployed now yeah whereas with social media we've

now yeah whereas with social media we've got 10 years in or 15 years in and we

got 10 years in or 15 years in and we were like oh my god so let's do run the

were like oh my god so let's do run the studies now and see the impact it's

studies now and see the impact it's having it's interesting we're going to

having it's interesting we're going to see how that plays out yeah are you

see how that plays out yeah are you writing another book you thinking about

writing another book you thinking about a subject yeah I'm always thinking about

a subject yeah I'm always thinking about stuff um as I said I've got this

stuff um as I said I've got this document with like 100 book ideas I'd

document with like 100 book ideas I'd need to live 100 lives to write them all

need to live 100 lives to write them all but uh I'm I'm pretty focused on this

but uh I'm I'm pretty focused on this one now and some other things but I will

one now and some other things but I will I will start thinking about the next

I will start thinking about the next book proposal soon

book proposal soon Adam thank you thank you for writing

Adam thank you thank you for writing such an incredible book and if you do

such an incredible book and if you do end up writing another book I'll be I'll

end up writing another book I'll be I'll be the first to buy it because this book

be the first to buy it because this book is phenomenal all your books are

is phenomenal all your books are phenomenal because they're so accessible

phenomenal because they're so accessible but they're confronting subject matter

but they're confronting subject matter that is so as you say has such broad

that is so as you say has such broad appeal

appeal um where there doesn't appear to be

um where there doesn't appear to be solid clear answers yet and I also love

solid clear answers yet and I also love authors like yourself that don't take a

authors like yourself that don't take a binary approach to things because life

binary approach to things because life isn't binary in any in any regard and so

isn't binary in any in any regard and so being nuanced in

being nuanced in um and personalized I think is is what

um and personalized I think is is what you do so well but um is what it's also

you do so well but um is what it's also what people love so much and you're a

what people love so much and you're a fantastic talker you're a fantastic at

fantastic talker you're a fantastic at conveying ideas so if you ever want to

conveying ideas so if you ever want to start a podcast you know I'd certainly

start a podcast you know I'd certainly download it thank you so much Adam it's

download it thank you so much Adam it's an honor to meet you thanks Steven it's

an honor to meet you thanks Steven it's been great thank you

been great thank you [Music]

[Music] oh

oh [Music]

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YouTube Transcript:Psychology Expert: How Colours, Your First Name And Your Location Might Be Ruining Your Life!

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Psychology Expert: How Colours, Your First Name And Your Location Might Be Ruining Your Life!