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Muslim Women and Misogyny - Samia Rahman | York Ideas | YouTubeToText
YouTube Transcript: Muslim Women and Misogyny - Samia Rahman
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[Music] [Applause]
right hello
everybody Welcome to the York Festival
of ideas um my name is Maria Ras I'm the
poad of equality here at the University
of York and I'll be chairing the event
today and it's my great pleasure to
welcome you and Samy are here today's
event is presented in collaboration with
the University of York's Athena Swan
Steering group um and the Athena Swan
Charter is a framework which is used
across um the globe uh and it supports
and transforms gender equality within
higher education and research um I'm
absolutely delighted to introduce Samia
Samar rhman is a writer scholar and
journalist whose research focuses on
Muslim women patriarchy and structures
of power uh she is the former director
of the Muslim Institute and former
deputy editor of the quarterly critical
Muslim and she's currently studying for
a PhD at Goldsmith's University of
London Samia over to you thank you thank
you very [Applause]
[Applause]
much thank you hello and welcome
everyone um uh my name is Amia and um
I'd really like to thank um you all and
also the wonderful team at York Festival
of ideas for inviting me here um to talk
to you about Muslim women and misogyny
myths and misunderstandings which I
happen to have just written the book
about so um in the book I initially
offer some thoughts on how we might
Define misogyny and I think it's fair to
say you know misogyny usually manifests
in oppression and there are various
forms of Oppression that exist um in our
world that we are witnessed to whether
it's atrocities in Sudan in Congo in
authoritarian States in neocolonial
projects in patriarchal theocracies in
the abyss of the man-made climate crisis
that we face and not least the horror of
what we are currently witnessing in Gaza
in the Middle East um these are not
unconnected but anyway I digress um so
you know I I never actually saw myself
writing a book about Muslim women in
misogyny um I felt this was a really
fetishized topic it was like I felt like
it was so overdone and loaded with
orientalist tropes and lazy assumptions
um and I I also was convinced that I was
not a typical Muslim woman um with a
typical Muslim upbringing whatever you
know I thought that was but I just felt
like who am I to take up space and claim
to speak for all Muslim women um because
there's such an assumption that Muslim
women are victims of Muslim misogyny and
I'm not going to deny that there is
truth to this uh women's lives are
lighted by misogyny but this idea that
Muslims have a monopoly on misogyny is
just ludicrous and this is what I hope
is one of the takeaways of my book
because because there's this there's
this idea that like an exceptional
misogyny exists that is that is
experienced only by Muslim women and is
perpetrated only by Muslim men and and I
think this just serves to demonize
Muslim men and it also infantilizes
Muslim women
I mean there's so many it's like far far
too many people you know who are
convinced that Muslim women are
oppressed and need saving by the West I
mean this has even been um one of the
justifications for um the war on terror
for example in the post 911 landscape I
mean who else remembers uh the US first
lady Laura Bush framing the invasion of
Afghanistan as a fight to liberate
Afghan women um it was in a radio
address um I think it was November 2001
and she declared that the fight against
terrorism is also a fight for the rights
of women and I'm in no way advocating
from the Taliban okay like they are
awful um but this idea that Muslim women
will be liberated from Muslim men by
dropping bombs is like really obscene um
and I think it's because there's this
idea that Muslims and Islam are
inherently misogynistic that creates
this distraction from the structural
inequality ities and injustices that
persist in all our societies it's not to
say that Muslim women don't suffer
misogyny or that misogyny is not a
problem in Muslim communities is that
there are ways to own our problems and
Tackle them without fueling
islamophobia and and that's what I hope
my book manages to do because I mean you
know obviously I you know I'm not in any
kind of denial Muslims have a PR problem
when it comes to misogyny um I mean
um for example there's this scene um in
the film text in the city which I I
confess I watched um and in the scene um
like there's an array of condoms that
like burst out of um the the handbag of
a s skimpy dressed Samantha and she's
like flailing about on her knees in the
middle of a crowded souk scrambling to
retrieve her ribbed strawberry flavored
extra sensitive assortment of
paraphernalia and and and the fasal turn
of events kind of betrays an air of
Menace as this Bing crowd of robed and
bearded men gather around her and
they're kind of berating her immoral and
obsene conduct and these men are wild
eyed and intimidating but our formidable
heroin is not to be cowed and she's like
a personification of sexually liberated
and emancipated Western feminism so she
gathers together her belongings she
Gates I'm not going to do the move she
Gates suggestively and she screams at
the misogynists yes I have sex I mean
like sex in the city was full of like
cultural cliches and blundering social
observations it was an orientalist
fantasy and it was contemptuous in its
portrayal of Muslim men as misogynists
while depicting Muslim Society through
the alsoo represent to prison of a
nation in the Gulf as repressed and
oppressive so Defenders of the film
point out that the plot you know
Compares with um you know
blatantly that the plot also comments on
challenges women in US Society base but
this is negligible when compared with
blatantly stereotypical Muslim tropes I
mean this FM came out in 2010 so his
portrayal of Muslims can't be excused as
a caricature con signed to the history
books so as sex in the city's main car
to carry would no doubt news at this
point came even put on my carry voice I
watched the scene and I got to thinking
about women in Islam a whole lot of
misogyny or just
misunderstood that was
my so so so obviously this was so
obviously this was far from the first
time I've like cringed at assumptions
about gender roles in Islam and viewed
through the Western Centric gaze of
white feminism um but of course you know
this book that I wrote um it couldn't
and shouldn't be all about me um so I
interviewed many inspiring Muslim women
um and a very few you know inspiring and
not so inspiring Muslim men um and I
want to begin by talking about one of
them um Dr Sophia Rahman um she actually
she lives in Leeds not far from here and
she's the author of A treasury of Aisha
um which is an exquisite L bound book
compiling 40 insights and statements
from Aisha bin Abu Bakr who's um the
prophet Muhammad's thirdd wife and the
youngest woman he married um so much has
been narrated and discussed about Aisha
from her from her age of marriage her
temperament and the salacious gossip she
endured during her lifetime and which
dogged her Legacy after her
death now um so Sophia's research
it's really Illuminating because
disapproval of interpreting the Quran
beyond the confines of traditional
exoduses meant that voices of women like
Aisha were pushed to the
margins um traditional and patriarchal
interpretations gained prominence
because Society at that time was frankly
patriarchal um there were other voices
that did exist but they were drowned out
or ignored and the distorting effect of
this omission is illustrated by this
collection of aishu says um which
actually was cated by um by the 14th
century scholar Al Zar Kashi um and
actually Al zashi quotes the Hadith
which is um one of the SS of the Prophet
um that implies that every Muslim should
take personal responsibility for his or
her understanding of Islam um his quot
is the Quran is malleable capable of
many types of interpretation interpreted
therefore according to the best possible
time but this Hadith is it's far less
well known than those which reinforce uh male
male
Supremacy um anyway so let me tell you a
little bit about um Sophia so she she
describes embracing a very conservative
practice of Islam in her teenage days
and over the course of a couple of
decades deepening her understanding to
find peace and Liberation in an Islam
that wasn't immersed solely in outward
pieties so as a second generation
British Muslim her trajectory is very
much in line with the considerable
research out there that looks at British
Muslim identity formation and belonging
so she was full of questions about life
and religion uh and Islam not only
fulfilled a spiritual void from the age
of about 15 onwards for her but it also
provided community and friendships um
she took the decision to wear hijab at
the age of 17
the first in her extended family to do
so um and then she adopted the full
length a buyer and within a couple of
years she was regularly wearing the face
Veil um her new friends at the mid they
quickly displaced her previous
Friendship Circle and although her
parents you know they were delighted
that they could send her to University
without worrying about boyfriends or
drinking or partying you know they but
they worried about the safe her safety
wearing the hijab in the shadow of 911
now Sophia's first friends at the mjid
were members of the now outlawed
hisb um after attending a few HD Hero
meetings she became really frustrated
with the quality of discourse that she
was um experiencing so it was a lot of
hot air there was a lot of pmic and it
was a world away from the intellectual
substance that she was seeking and she
she she she told me about attend how how
she attended a gathering which took
place in one of the largest conference
and event venues in London and the sheer
number of Muslims in attendance was was
powerful but despite searching she found
the Gathering to be really absent of any
real exchange of knowledge so she
continued to read widely but she found
that the diversity of representation of
thought in Islamic bookshops which had
once had shelves lined with Ahmed D side
by side with Hamza YF and Abu Hamza so
real diversity of like scholarly thought
this has all been supplanted by books
published almost exclusively by the
Saudi based publisher darus ban so this
influenced the direction of her own
learning and led to her taking a more
Saudi a more sufy approach to religion
as this ideological instruction was all
that was available and preachers doing
the circuit were also that way
inclined so fast forward a couple of
years of reading and Sophia was like
still deeply dissatisfied um um due to
the reduction of diversity on the
shelves of Islamic bookshops at this
point she felt like she'd read every
book available um but she was just totally
totally
unstimulated she traveled across the UK
to talks but found the repetition and
superficiality of the preacher sermons
really uninspiring and it got to the
point like she she told me where she
would go to talks and she would sit
there bored and finishing off the
sentences of the speakers because it was
so predictable everyone was saying the
same thing thing and she kept thinking
how could a religion that is over 1,400
years old and that she believes is
genuinely of the Divine Source how can
she at the age of 20 have already
managed to learn everything that there
is to learn it's impossible so Sophie
had the humility to know that this
couldn't be correct and she determined
to study to deepen her understanding so
she took up Arabic um she graduated from
University she got married and she
traveled out to state
where her husband was already studying
they had both pledged to embark on a
lifelong journey of learning and serious
study but until that point she had only ever
ever
experienced a representation of Islam in
the UK that was narrowly defined and
dogmatic because those were the
teachings um that were coming from the
same from all the same Institutes of
learning so so in the Sera of the mid
2000s um Sophia became exposed to s
influences and more mystical worship um
it was a really vibrant time in in Syria
at that point and it's so tragic what
you know sort of what's happened in
Syria since then um her more pietistic
and uh ritualistic Sol solhy
sensibilities um bulked at this um but
her quest for knowledge overcame any
reticence she just wanted to submit to
knowledge and was prepared to be led by
information that she was sure was
legitimately legitimately rooted in the
tradition so she's in a Bookshop in
Damascus um and she came across zash
she's book about AA and she decided one
day I'm going to translate this and of
course she would end up doing more than
translating the book she would 15 years
later carry out a critical study of it
and an entire PhD examining the work so
obviously unaware of what the future
hell Sophia started to quickly become
aware of interpretations of Islamic
scripture and the real realization that
all interpretation is a form of human
endeavor which is going to be limited by
societal economic political gender race
and many other
systems having that understanding of
knowledge production enabled Sophia to
separate what was divine from what is
man-made and she was able to recognize
that there are there are approaches the
to the Quran that allow Muslims to look
at verses that on the one hand
contingent as well as those which are
Eternal and this really opened up her
mind so Sophia tussled with the
education she had now immersed herself
in as it it really challenged her
learning the the learning of her
formative years but her probing
questions and engagement with her
teachers meant that not only did she
Excel as the student but her world was
opened up to a plurality of thought and
critical thinking she felt a a spark
that preachers of her youth had never
ignited she felt the expansion of her
Horizons Beyond solop Islam well to this
day remaining cognizant of the role it
played in making her a confident Muslim
and putting her on the path of learning
something that you know that is
encouraged in Sal Islam so by the time
Sophia and her husband returned from
Syria to continue their studies um at a
it was it was at a center in Wales that
they they were stud studying she was
willing to accept that there were
Alternatives such as
sism and they were not the corrupting
innovations that some of her more
Firebrand sufy preachers had warned with
inspiring teachers who challenged and
encouraged discussion Sophia felt
enriched by what she regarded as a
pedagogy in action uh Sophia and her
husband had by now moved to Turkey I
this is like a real like high traveling
couple and and where her husband was car
caring out research for his PhD um he
joined a critical reading group with
local Scholars and students from the
nearby University and at the same time
Sophia had reached a stage where she was
committed to taking truth from wherever
she found it whatever Drew her closer to
Allah and what brought her the
contentment of the heart that the
prophet had spoken of so one day her
husband came home with a copy of the
feminist Muslim scholar Amud inside the
gender Jihad and so people was Furious
she had heard all about Amina wadud's
work and had decided nothing good could
come of such teachings
teachings
um but she she she was a voracious
reader so she picked the book up and she
started to read and to her amazement she
couldn't find anything objectionable she
describes it as a crack in the veneer
and although she still felt resistance
to am's teachings it was the beginnings
of a demystifying of so-called feminist
or Progressive Scholars of Islam that
Sophia had been convinced were Absolut
absolutely Beyond The Pale so sometime
later Sophia's husband um brought home
Fatima marus the veale and the main
Elite and again she recalls you know
reading it and finding that she was
unable to disagree with much of what
manusi had
written um and as the years passed
Sophia became open to be exposed to
works such as these as did her husband
they returned to the UK and she felt her
views on salvation and pluralism in Islam
Islam
altering she decided to attend higher
education embarking upon her PhD at the
University of leads and her studies
meant she was further exposed to
different ways of thinking and a broader
view of what it means to be a Muslim
woman her openness to learning is
indicative of her willingness to submit
and remain humble and embrace knowledge
as a channel to help maintain humility
as she still continues to seek out proof
wherever it may be found as far as she
could see intellectual curiosity feeds
into our spiritual experiences and what
we then go on to deliver to our
communities for her it's individual and
also communal so Sophia's PhD is
intrinsic to her journey so both the
text author and the subject of the book
Aisha embody the ways in which
patriarchal readings of Islamic
scripture marginalized the role of women
in our understanding of Islamic history and
and
tradition so here is a woman you know
she she had grown up only hearing about
uh Aisha as a wife of the Prophet but
now she was seeing her in this
three-dimensional individual she she was
seeing her as this three-dimensional
individual in her own right who was
actually a politician a scholar an army
Commander a strategist an advisor and
she was like how is this not in the
public domain there were so many ways
that young women could imagine their own
Futures other than solely as mother and
wife um not that there's anything wrong
with just being a mother and wife um if
we had you know if only we had Aisha
represented to us in a way that truly
honored her sort of multiple ways of
being I mean of course you know Sophia's
point is not to say that the exalted
role of wife and mother should not be
revered I mean women for whom this is
for whom this vital undertaking brings
all the Fulfillment they need should be
celebrated and admired but what Sophia's
words in the example of Aisha
illustrates to me is how patriarchal
interpretations of Islam have reduced
complex and multi-talented women such as
Aisha Fierce feisty
provocative uh argumentative sometimes
difficult women into limited versions of
themselves Aisha's complexity is
stripped away and her role as wife and
mother supersedes every other aspect of her
her
identity so this so This blind spot
comes from the male privilege afforded
by generations of male Scholars which is
something ARA wud argues so new
understandings of the Quran reveal what
wud describes as possible roads towards
finding new conceptions of what it means
to be human in a religion that has had a
history of castigation from the male
Elite who were so entrenched in their
own struggles for understanding the
Divine human relations that they saw
their androcentric as a reflection of
the totality of the Divine intent sorry
that's like quite an academic sort um
quote but um but but basically these
generations of male Scholars are ever
present in a survey of the current
widely available literature derived from
accepted mainstream Islamic scholarship
and almost exclusively women are
depicted as a separate you know even inferior
inferior
species and and it doesn't have to be
this way you just need to seek out
scholarship by female Islamic
thinkers um there's obviously Al wud
there's Asma Bas there's Lea Ahmed Z
husseini kha Fatima Marin and
Sana to realize how incomplete these
patri patriarchal interpretations are so
while sopia looks back on discovering
these writings as kind of shaking up her
sufy worldview when I came across
feminist scholarship like I kind of
devoured them with gratitude because
these were trailblazing women who helped
me to confidently refuse to accept the
patriarchal Islamic scholarship of my
formative years and which advocated a
practice of Islam which was which had
been you know which was which i' grown
up to to believe was was truth but was
just based on dogma and the reality is
much of the conventional interpretation
of the Quran that has remained unchanged
for centuries consists of layers upon
layers of accepted truth built on the
interpretation of a long line of male
Scholars so narratives deep in
patriarchy inevitably they will codify
patriarchal definitions of Islamic PES
and rituals and this this Islam of male
Supremacy is without doubt steeped in
misogyny but I really don't think it's
an Islam that independently minded
critical thinkers who value autonomy can
accept so beyond the rigid and narrow
conservative Notions of such groups as
wahhabis for example Sal and various
traditionalists there are other Islams
more amable to new
understandings I mean as someone if you
started my academic Journey as a student
of literature any passive literalist
absorption of a text is in my view an
impoverished approach to Reading yet
this is what many of the traditional
Scholars offer as their interpretation
of the
Quran and the valuable you know the
valuable cont contribution of
traditional Scholars is not in any doubt
you know they they they they really they
they are to be valued and and they're
not to be dismissed but their
commentaries have often epitomized the
phenomenon of prevailing culture being
interpreted through the medium of
religion and it's also important that
these Scholars were men suggesting the
practice of the religion was inevitably
framed in the interests of men and I
think it is a fair assumption to make
you know the fact that Islam classical
Scholars are predominantly male would
explain why the prism of interpretation
has been couched in patriarchy and the
inevitable consequence of this has been
the creation of of an Islamic exeresis
that is devoid of female input and
therefore is heavily weighted in favor
of patriarchal
concerns I mean for example male
Scholars had very little access to the
multifaceted lives of the diversity of
women during The Classical period and so
could not possibly justly illustrate
their place in Islam women became
subjected to commentary and translations
and interpretations of the Quran and
Hadith with no way of representing
themselves with an authentic voice so
these classic scholars in turn
influenced contemporary traditional
commentaries by people such as uh maudi
and say and so we're thus kind of caught
in a cycle of misogyny that seems to perpetuate
perpetuate itself
itself
endlessly I also uh want to mention
someone else um I interviewed for this
book um Dr Shaman sha um is a trained
sociologist of religion so his knowledge
is is grounded firmly in an academic
perspective and his own personal
grappling uh since his late teenss with
the Islamic scriptures so unlike Sophia
he uh so so Sophia studied Islamic texts
in a traditionally authorized way
seminaries in Syria and turkey before
embarking on her postgraduate studies um
but his was a a solely kind of academic
um uh sort of trajectory so so in a in a
conversation I have with shanon he
quotes I'm
Aude we all have a prior text that we
bring to the text and this is his prior
text as a mixed race Malian Muslim who
was already beginning to question his
Islamic education when he went to study
in Australia on the scholarship and it
was a time when he was also coming to
terms with his sexuality and his
experience of racism and xenophobia had
at that time not yet become full-blown
what we Define as
islamophobia so shamon read am's Quan and
and woman
woman
um so yeah Shannon read am's Quan and
woman and am had said when she converted
to Islam that she would read the an and
if she found anything in it that didn't
sit well with her conscience then she
would no longer continue to be a Muslim
and that day never came so her book blew
his mind and he committed himself to
rereading the Quran for himself and he
picked up Abdullah YF Ali's translation
and he did exactly that and in a
conversation with we had he he said to
me when I got to the end I thought to
myself okay this is not so bad this is
the prior text stuff I expected to find
myself in it reading it as a gay man
Shaman also consulted the works of zamu
huseni Scott cougal and other Scholars
and discovered interpretive tools such
as thematic analysis and semantic
analyses so let's let's reflect for a
moment on am's
worldview um of the Quran which asks how
can you read such violence and Injustice
in a book which has a world view that is
generally about Liberation and Justice
and that was something that shanon had
never considered before so the texts
when taken in
isolation seemed to point to something
that is perceived as patriarchal but
seem to mean something else within this
larger system of
Liberation I mean after all it's when
women like Aisha as Soph Rahman came to
understand claim space and don't taught
to the patriarchal order under which
they are suffering when they don't give
up in their battle to be heard the
patriarchal Injustice can be tackled so
in my book I look at what mean what what
that means when Muslim women step out
into the public realm and all the
vulnerability and expectation that
involves um I listened to a talk by
ingred Matson um a Canadian Muslim
activist and scholar and she writes
about the necessity for Muslim women
women to take up leadership roles um she
argues that however well-meaning or
mindful your average heteronormative man
may be often the Eraser of women's
rights and marginalized groups rights
and the reinforcement of patriarchal
structures comes about because of an
absence of women speaking for women in
positions of power and
authority so women in leadership
positions of religious Authority and
spirituality are particularly to be
welcomed to CH to challenge the
resistance to a deconstruction of
Orthodox traditions and practices that
have become codified as true Islam so
Matson speaks of IB rush and his theory
of renewal and references in the Hadith
where the Prophet says at the beginning
of every Century God will Center this
community someone who will renew its
religion so throughout history both the
basic sources of Islam have been through
the lens of cultural practices of the
7th Century Society now a casual
examination and consideration of the
historical context of the original
sources upholds the perspective that
they are free from certainly
misogynistic intent so the Quran was
never intended to be approached as a
superficial legal Co code in my opinion
yet those who interpret the Quran in
this manner do so I believe to uphold
their own agenda of patri patriarchal
control and the oppression of women or
fuel the islamophobic fire that Brands
all Muslim men misogynists and all
Muslim women
oppressed I mean this is not to say that
there is nothing uncomplicated about
Islamic scripture and there are more
than a few contemporary Scholars of
Islam who struggle to find enough
evidence to be convinced that a
progressive reading is possible however
much they would like to so so speaking
with um uh with Aisha with Aisha hiah
who is the author of feminist edges of
the Quran um and I took the opportunity
to Pro to probe Aisha about a Fallout
which occurred from her exegetical focus
on on anti-patriarchal readings of the
Quran so her analysis encompasses the
Contemporary giants like R husin
Al as sh and Kish Ali and what she
produces is a considered and honest
confession and what comes through is
that for Aisha this is
aaah um not AA the prophet's wife um is
this is a deeply personal project and
her findings her findings are painful
but as far as she's concerned undeniable
so she assesses the verses in the Quran
that cause Pro women interpretations the
most unease such as verse 4 um 434 which
is the notorious wife admonishing or
wife beating verst and which translation
whichever translation suits you and
she's unable to entirely reconcile them
um she's unable to conclude anything
other than that other than that the
verse speaks of a context in which men
may hit their wives so arude on the
other hand rejects this verse outright
but however much aaah wish is to she she
can't um she explains the personal toll
that publishing this book to took and
her fear that it would fuel patriarchal
and misogynistic interpretations of
Islam But ultimately citing intellectual
honesty she stands by her reasoning and
she suggests that we engage with the
Quran as a process of co-creation while
acknowledging it to be a Divine text so
so what I mean is still for her it
doesn't mean that this isn't this is an
end to any conversation on inclusivity
in Islam it's just that for for her
answers may not be found in quranic text
but located in Islamic traditions and
practices uh
instead how am I doing okay um so um I
also want to tell you about another
conversation I had with um my good
friend Shannon um that I write about in
the book so we spoke about how the Quran
does speak and what it might mean to
engage with it as a process of
co-creation so for shanon as a gay man
as a gay Muslim believer trying to beat
a confession out of the Quran to tell us
it's not homophobic or it's not
misogynistic is for him the less
interesting discussion and he talks
about the more interesting discussion is
what were these other themes in other
Traditions that the was actively
engaging in as well and what was
everyone thinking about gender at that
time so there were texts in Judaism and
Christianity that were circulated in the
ancient world but were never canonized
and they are stories that can that can
be found in the Quran and as Muslims you
know let's explore these scriptural
worlds from other
traditions for me I think the difficulty
is that we're the Quran perfects
everything that comes before it and
Muslims don't need anything else and
this is something that you know I really
question and you know something that in
my conversations with Shannon you know
key questions too I remember he you know
he said to me in the same quranic Sur
you might have two different verses
saying two different things about how
many women a man is permitted to marry
for example and I remember another
another example that he and I discussed
which was of a Jewish rabbi who because
of the way that um the Jewish Traditions
read Genesis decided that actually there
are many Androgen eyes in the world and
therefore there must be six or seven
genders and the thing
is Scholars of Islam had these similar
discussions and it you know it could be
the case that perhaps their aims were
ultimately conservative perhaps they
were aiming to uphold the patriarchal
order so if they had discussions about
the possibility of six or seven genders
it would be to discuss how they must
comply within the patriarchal
heteronormative system but the point is
that they were open to having these
discussions in the first place so
reading the Quran from page one to the
end nobody read it that way at that time
these were written scriptures but they
were also circulated as oral texts and
people would meditate on certain
passages and uncover layers of meaning
which could be which could be personal
or developed collectively in the
community and rules were derived from
them and that's the kind of reading
we're simply not encouraged as Muslims to
to
undertake so I just want to reflect
quickly on some contemporary um how to
describe culture War type
issues um so amude in in Quran and woman
as well as locating the world viw of the
Quran as shamon describes um the key in
challenging patriarchal readings of the
Quran and the subsequent patriarchal
practice of Islam is to understand that
a lies Beyond gender so pronouns let's
talk about pronouns pronouns are a point
of moral Panic these days yet it was
before the abundance of bad faith
willful misunderstanding of the notion
of misgendering that Amud began arguing
that to exclusively use the masculine
pronoun negates the concept of bedic
unity or the Oneness of God so using
feminine or plural pronouns for Allah
recognizes that rigid gender bound
binaries are a construction of our
contemporary context and this has become
hardened since the onset of
modernity and you know what this makes a
lot of sense to me and there are plenty
of Scholars even you know for example
Michael Muhammad Knight um who you know
he discussed wanting to believe in a
progressive who who wanted to believe in
Progressive iterations of Islam such as
queer friendly interpretations of the
story of loot um but but said in the end
that you know they needed something more
concrete um you know I explore Muslim
women's uh sexual selves and the lived
reality of Muslim sexuality and some
depth in the book but suffice to say
there is so much hand ringing amongst
socially liberal Muslims who seek
definitive verses and Hadith that they
can refer their bigoted Faith fellows to
however even with Michael Muhammad M he
he in 2020 he wrote a book called
Muhammad's body um and he looks at the
way in which semantics of Arabic grammar
have prioritized masculine pronouns um
there is
no gender neutral pronoun that currently
exists in Arabic grammar so this brings
him much closer to amu's view there's
also Muhammad Fadel in his seminal work
two women one man which offers another
perspective as well as am he he takes
the works of Le Ahmed and F Mari who
also very much inform my own reading of
the Quran and analyzes their argument
that Islam is at its Essence a gender
neutral belief system that has been
obscured by a centuries long tradition
of male dominated interpretation so
Fidel introduces the concept of
political versus normative discourse to
illustrate the tension between feminist
readings of the Quran which appeared to
suggest that there is a true objective
interpretation which promotes gender
equality and an array of postmodern
readings which are subjective and
therefore to be
discounted so so my discomfort with this
position is that it disregards what a
very good friend of mine um Lea jagela
who's written an amazing book you should
look it up um has discussed in her
writings and talks that it is the
traditions of Muslim societies that
offer the missing pieces of the jigsaw
puzzle that in its completion points to
a framework of equity and Justice as
inherent to what it means to be a
Muslim so this is um this is a quote
that um Maria said she particularly
liked to reduce Islam to texts is to
miss the essence of what it is to be a
Muslim Islam is more than a series of
texts it's also a series of
histories so it's um so it's hugely
seductive um to regard the first the
very first Believers as the original and
authentic Muslims untainted by cultural baggage
baggage
and in a world where many Muslims feel
disaffected and demonized by the
dominant Global narrative and trapped in
the cycle of capitalism's dehumanization
of our spiritual selves it's tempting to
find a way to reject contemporary
culture and everything it stands for and
to seek Solace and Direction and
validation as a way in a way of life
utterly removed from all that is around
us so looking to romanticized looking to
a r romanticized um perfect past you
know is by no means exclusive to Muslims
I mean how many times have we heard sort
of you know Back to Basics and the
conservatives talking about you know the
Golden Era of you know what it means to
be British um you know this this is this
is you know this is a um you know this
is not exclusive to Muslims however this
yearning to mirror life as it was lived
in the prophet's time it seems
undermined by a point rarely
acknowledged that the prophet and his
companion indeed the entirety of the
early Muslim Community lived in a
society in which customs and culture
were already in existence they did not
live in a vacuum and it's hardly
feasible that even as Islam was revealed
and pract practiced they were able to
insulate themselves from the pre-islamic
culture into which they were
born two minutes okay so um so Islam was
revealed in an era vastly different from
the one in which we live today we can
only discover its meaning and relevance
for contemporary Times by lifting it out
of its 7th Century cultural context and
understanding how it was shaped by its
7th Century context and its contact with
surrounding Moray including you know
patriarchal Norms prevalent in the
assassinate Empire the the byzantines
and so on so revisiting how we engage
with the text is also crucial many of us
who grew up uh being discouraged Ed from
questioning or engaging with Islamic
texts in any kind of critical or
interpretive way we look for easy
two-dimensional answers rather than
building complicated truths if we want
to discover whether the Quran upholds
patriarchy or enables misogyny perhaps
we need to ask questions of the text we
should be bold enough to ask what does
this really mean and to be honest with
ourselves and admit when we're not
getting to the heart of it or if or if
we feel uncomfortable with its
interpretation that is how one embodies
Islamic texts as part of a lived
experience rather than reading it
passively or trying to bend it out of
shape because we want it to conform to
whatever we want it to conform to this
is how we locate feminism whatever
feminism means to us in Islam thank you
thank you Samia we have 15 minutes for
questions and I know there's a few
people that really want to ask some
questions so there's a a robing mic and
to can I start with a question myself so
I can I can yeah got SM so s in your
book you talk about and you've already
shared my my favorite verse which is
excellent and you
critique texts from the Quran and the
histories of the Quran and as a Muslim
growing up um if we were to ever
question what the scriptures were there
was always this um saying from my
parents it was like an aakar moment you
don't question you just absorb the text
and you follow how did you then come to
a a point in time where you actually
accepted I'm going to I'm going to write
this book I'm going to follow what I'm
thinking you know is Islam misogynistic
what was the turning point I think um
I mean I think it's like kind of finding
that balance as a believer of submission
because there is this idea of submission
um you know in Islamic practice which I
think is a really beautiful one because
it's about trust yes but you can submit
and you can have trust without being
complacent and I think you know I think
you know any every woman has experienced
misogyny right and every Muslim woman
has experienced misogyny as a Muslim
women perpetrated by whether it's from
within the community whether it's
externally um whether it's from White
feminism whether it's from kind of you
know the sort of the Orthodox and
whether it's from women you know
perpetuating misogyny upon
women so I mean it's interesting you
should ask that question because I I
really struggled um I really struggled
and was unsure whether or not I should
write this book because I was really
terrified of fueling islamophobia
because let's face it you know Muslim
men are so demonized whether it's you
know kind of I mean you know talking
about you know um I mean I you know I
can't I can't you know my mind my mind
is is so much in Gaza right now and you
know we talk about you know you know
women and children and the Innocents
dying but what about the Muslim men you
know and um you know and there's the the
sort of the the demonization of the
Pakistani Muslim you know Taxi Driver
he's just kind of trying to earn a
living for his friends and he's you know
being kind of you know portrayed as a
groomer and um you know you know and
there's you know there's there's racism
there's islamophobia there are sort of
structures of violence you know
patriarchy is a structure of violence
and its victims are women and men and
you know it's it's all you know so so I
felt that this was an important book um
to write but also I had to you know I
had to ensure
that this was representative absolutely
um because the experience of Muslim
women is so diverse um we're not a
monolithic or
homogeneous uh Community you know we
have such an array of different sort of
viewpoints and
experiences um
so in the end I just um I I had some you
know experienc some sort of misogynistic
experiences in my personal and
professional life which I also allude to
in the book because I got to be careful
about Lial laws um uh so that was uh a
bit of a turning point for me actually than
than
gentleman thank you for a very
interesting and enlightening talk I'm
ignorant about Muslim things but um is
there um H how widespread is your
view um who decides what a Muslim
is um so are you just seen as a sort of
a um a liberal someone who was given
into the
culture uh and therefore should be
avoided by all true Muslims um or is
there a way where you can be
validated by by whether Islam has a
hierarchy I don't know of some
Archbishop somewhere equivalent of you
know saying no you're you're you're your
solid kind of thing um so sorry for my
ignorance but I'm just trying to see how
widespread is is your understanding of
of of of Islam and your interpretations
of the
Quran please do yeah excellent question
I mean I don't claim to speak for
anybody um and I don't want to you know
to speak for others you know everybody's
entitled um to their perspective um but
I think it's important to acknowledge
that there is such a plurality of
thought within Muslim communities it's
often just sort of you know behind
closed doors um I there is there there's
not really a
hierarchy um I don't know I mean is my
is my perspective widespread or not I
think what I would you know I don't
really the answer to that I just would
say that a lot of conversations are
taking place and I think um I mean we
were talking about this earlyer that
intergenerationally um there's a lot of
uh Divergence of of thought so you know
young people um are sort of having
conversations that perhaps their parents
or grandparents would never dream of
having um or have um or have a way of
sort of inter ating the texts that is
different to the sort of passive
absorption that you know sort of other
Generations um are used to and also it's
important to sort of to understand that
you know because I mean just thinking
about Muslims in Britain are drawn from
such diverse um you know kind of you
know ethnic Origins and there are
Traditions um of debate and discussion
which are very alive in different
communities and the South Asian
experience for example is not the
universal one um and I think yeah I mean
I think um this isn't you know this is
not really about sort of you know this
is what I think and this is what I think
you should all think I me that's not my
that's not my position at all I just um
you know I just celebrate uh taking
personal responsibility for what you
believe and um and I'm also really
really open and would welcome you know
push back and because you know this you
know any kind of sort of trajectory of
Faith the practice of Faith um the
understanding of faith and you know sort
of figuring out what we believe is is a
lifelong kind of Journey and it should
be um so um I mean you know some people
you know I mean for example somebody
like I'm an dude who I talk about a lot
I mean I would so recommend you read her
books um she was considered very Fringe
maybe 10 years ago um but I think these
kind of um you know these I me I mean
you know who who gets to decide what's
Fringe what's the you know what's the
center what is you know what what is
Marg you know the margins you know are
sort of moving you know the the the
needle is Shifting um so I think you
know there's a lot of streaming of a lot
of these ideas that is occurring and and
I would also say that in more Orthodox conservative
conservative
spaces or spaces that are outwardly
perceived as being Orthodox or
conservative however you want to define
those terms um there are some very
interesting conversations going on um in
those spaces it's just
very um you know it's it's it's private
it's it's it's being carried out
privately because I think a lot of
Muslims know that when you do speak up
when you
do when you do talk specifically about
contentious um issues or issues that are
a little bit uh
controversial um it's you know there's a
there's there's a tendency to either be
sort of shouted down or co-opted or um
utilized for you know kind of certain agendas
agendas
um you know I mean there's there's a
there's a lot of um I think you know
there's sometimes a fear of of sort of
you know being being used to fuel
islamophobia when you speak out about
these things and so so these
conversations they they're taking place
but perhaps behind closed
doors one more question just
thank you so much for the very rich and
um enlightening conversation about this
uh this topic my question really refers
to the uh the title of your of your
session but also uh the content of what
you've uh you've discussed as much as
you referred so much to um people you've
talked to who've written many books
about about Islam the question that I
really have have refers to whether this
is not just um a topic of misogyny in
religion in general and also how patrial
our societies are depending on where we
are I think even the Western World had
these issues not so long ago where uh
women would not particularly position
themselves as they do right now so is it
something that you see in the work
you're doing uh having probably evolved
in certain societies but it's actually
still present I when I say religion I
also refer to Christianity where you see
a lot of uh women expected to be
submissive to their husbands which is
something that we don't particularly
often talk about so is it something that
you also see in your research thank you
thank you that's a really really good
question and yes absolutely I mean at
the beginning of my talk I said we
Muslims we do not have the Monopoly on
misogyny you know we're not like the
world experts on misogyny misogyny is
everywhere is like a universal issue and
this idea in the West you know that that
we live in this post sexist post-racist
society it's it's a myth I mean this is
not the case you know there were so many
examples of misogyny that occur I mean I
think is something like there there's a
statistic that blew me away about the
sort of um you know the prevalence of
domestic violence in the UK as an
example I mean we you know it's not all
fine in any society it just manifests
itself in different ways um and and and
really you know this is you know this is
one of my big push backs this is
something that I really wish to address
that this idea that you know it's
particularly bad to be a woman to be
some marginalized Community to be gay
because you are Muslim is just you know
that's that's not the case I mean there
were you know there's you know there's
there's there's relatives um you know
there's there's sort of
states of of kind of harm that you can
be um that can be inflicted upon you and
I'm not making any excuses and and I'm
not pretending that Muslim societies are
like a Utopia of you know kind of um
equality but you know there is there are
problems everywhere and the problem is
patriarchy and the problem is men well
the problem is patriarchy I mean men are
victims of patriarchy as much as women
are um so yeah that's that's definitely
the case thank you very much uh I'm
conscious it's um near the end of the
session and I know that Samia will be
signing some books if anybody's
interested there is um samia's book you
can get a hold of that which is at The
Book Stall the entrance um with our
partners Fox Fox Lane books um thank you
so much Samia for an amazing talk and
thank you for some really good questions
thank you
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