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Muslim Women and Misogyny - Samia Rahman

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[Music] [Applause]

right hello

everybody Welcome to the York Festival

of ideas um my name is Maria Ras I'm the

poad of equality here at the University

of York and I'll be chairing the event

today and it's my great pleasure to

welcome you and Samy are here today's

event is presented in collaboration with

the University of York's Athena Swan

Steering group um and the Athena Swan

Charter is a framework which is used

across um the globe uh and it supports

and transforms gender equality within

higher education and research um I'm

absolutely delighted to introduce Samia

Samar rhman is a writer scholar and

journalist whose research focuses on

Muslim women patriarchy and structures

of power uh she is the former director

of the Muslim Institute and former

deputy editor of the quarterly critical

Muslim and she's currently studying for

a PhD at Goldsmith's University of

London Samia over to you thank you thank

you very [Applause]

[Applause]

much thank you hello and welcome

everyone um uh my name is Amia and um

I'd really like to thank um you all and

also the wonderful team at York Festival

of ideas for inviting me here um to talk

to you about Muslim women and misogyny

myths and misunderstandings which I

happen to have just written the book

about so um in the book I initially

offer some thoughts on how we might

Define misogyny and I think it's fair to

say you know misogyny usually manifests

in oppression and there are various

forms of Oppression that exist um in our

world that we are witnessed to whether

it's atrocities in Sudan in Congo in

authoritarian States in neocolonial

projects in patriarchal theocracies in

the abyss of the man-made climate crisis

that we face and not least the horror of

what we are currently witnessing in Gaza

in the Middle East um these are not

unconnected but anyway I digress um so

you know I I never actually saw myself

writing a book about Muslim women in

misogyny um I felt this was a really

fetishized topic it was like I felt like

it was so overdone and loaded with

orientalist tropes and lazy assumptions

um and I I also was convinced that I was

not a typical Muslim woman um with a

typical Muslim upbringing whatever you

know I thought that was but I just felt

like who am I to take up space and claim

to speak for all Muslim women um because

there's such an assumption that Muslim

women are victims of Muslim misogyny and

I'm not going to deny that there is

truth to this uh women's lives are

lighted by misogyny but this idea that

Muslims have a monopoly on misogyny is

just ludicrous and this is what I hope

is one of the takeaways of my book

because because there's this there's

this idea that like an exceptional

misogyny exists that is that is

experienced only by Muslim women and is

perpetrated only by Muslim men and and I

think this just serves to demonize

Muslim men and it also infantilizes

Muslim women

I mean there's so many it's like far far

too many people you know who are

convinced that Muslim women are

oppressed and need saving by the West I

mean this has even been um one of the

justifications for um the war on terror

for example in the post 911 landscape I

mean who else remembers uh the US first

lady Laura Bush framing the invasion of

Afghanistan as a fight to liberate

Afghan women um it was in a radio

address um I think it was November 2001

and she declared that the fight against

terrorism is also a fight for the rights

of women and I'm in no way advocating

from the Taliban okay like they are

awful um but this idea that Muslim women

will be liberated from Muslim men by

dropping bombs is like really obscene um

and I think it's because there's this

idea that Muslims and Islam are

inherently misogynistic that creates

this distraction from the structural

inequality ities and injustices that

persist in all our societies it's not to

say that Muslim women don't suffer

misogyny or that misogyny is not a

problem in Muslim communities is that

there are ways to own our problems and

Tackle them without fueling

islamophobia and and that's what I hope

my book manages to do because I mean you

know obviously I you know I'm not in any

kind of denial Muslims have a PR problem

when it comes to misogyny um I mean

um for example there's this scene um in

the film text in the city which I I

confess I watched um and in the scene um

like there's an array of condoms that

like burst out of um the the handbag of

a s skimpy dressed Samantha and she's

like flailing about on her knees in the

middle of a crowded souk scrambling to

retrieve her ribbed strawberry flavored

extra sensitive assortment of

paraphernalia and and and the fasal turn

of events kind of betrays an air of

Menace as this Bing crowd of robed and

bearded men gather around her and

they're kind of berating her immoral and

obsene conduct and these men are wild

eyed and intimidating but our formidable

heroin is not to be cowed and she's like

a personification of sexually liberated

and emancipated Western feminism so she

gathers together her belongings she

Gates I'm not going to do the move she

Gates suggestively and she screams at

the misogynists yes I have sex I mean

like sex in the city was full of like

cultural cliches and blundering social

observations it was an orientalist

fantasy and it was contemptuous in its

portrayal of Muslim men as misogynists

while depicting Muslim Society through

the alsoo represent to prison of a

nation in the Gulf as repressed and

oppressive so Defenders of the film

point out that the plot you know

Compares with um you know

blatantly that the plot also comments on

challenges women in US Society base but

this is negligible when compared with

blatantly stereotypical Muslim tropes I

mean this FM came out in 2010 so his

portrayal of Muslims can't be excused as

a caricature con signed to the history

books so as sex in the city's main car

to carry would no doubt news at this

point came even put on my carry voice I

watched the scene and I got to thinking

about women in Islam a whole lot of

misogyny or just

misunderstood that was

my so so so obviously this was so

obviously this was far from the first

time I've like cringed at assumptions

about gender roles in Islam and viewed

through the Western Centric gaze of

white feminism um but of course you know

this book that I wrote um it couldn't

and shouldn't be all about me um so I

interviewed many inspiring Muslim women

um and a very few you know inspiring and

not so inspiring Muslim men um and I

want to begin by talking about one of

them um Dr Sophia Rahman um she actually

she lives in Leeds not far from here and

she's the author of A treasury of Aisha

um which is an exquisite L bound book

compiling 40 insights and statements

from Aisha bin Abu Bakr who's um the

prophet Muhammad's thirdd wife and the

youngest woman he married um so much has

been narrated and discussed about Aisha

from her from her age of marriage her

temperament and the salacious gossip she

endured during her lifetime and which

dogged her Legacy after her

death now um so Sophia's research

it's really Illuminating because

disapproval of interpreting the Quran

beyond the confines of traditional

exoduses meant that voices of women like

Aisha were pushed to the

margins um traditional and patriarchal

interpretations gained prominence

because Society at that time was frankly

patriarchal um there were other voices

that did exist but they were drowned out

or ignored and the distorting effect of

this omission is illustrated by this

collection of aishu says um which

actually was cated by um by the 14th

century scholar Al Zar Kashi um and

actually Al zashi quotes the Hadith

which is um one of the SS of the Prophet

um that implies that every Muslim should

take personal responsibility for his or

her understanding of Islam um his quot

is the Quran is malleable capable of

many types of interpretation interpreted

therefore according to the best possible

time but this Hadith is it's far less

well known than those which reinforce uh male

male

Supremacy um anyway so let me tell you a

little bit about um Sophia so she she

describes embracing a very conservative

practice of Islam in her teenage days

and over the course of a couple of

decades deepening her understanding to

find peace and Liberation in an Islam

that wasn't immersed solely in outward

pieties so as a second generation

British Muslim her trajectory is very

much in line with the considerable

research out there that looks at British

Muslim identity formation and belonging

so she was full of questions about life

and religion uh and Islam not only

fulfilled a spiritual void from the age

of about 15 onwards for her but it also

provided community and friendships um

she took the decision to wear hijab at

the age of 17

the first in her extended family to do

so um and then she adopted the full

length a buyer and within a couple of

years she was regularly wearing the face

Veil um her new friends at the mid they

quickly displaced her previous

Friendship Circle and although her

parents you know they were delighted

that they could send her to University

without worrying about boyfriends or

drinking or partying you know they but

they worried about the safe her safety

wearing the hijab in the shadow of 911

now Sophia's first friends at the mjid

were members of the now outlawed

hisb um after attending a few HD Hero

meetings she became really frustrated

with the quality of discourse that she

was um experiencing so it was a lot of

hot air there was a lot of pmic and it

was a world away from the intellectual

substance that she was seeking and she

she she she told me about attend how how

she attended a gathering which took

place in one of the largest conference

and event venues in London and the sheer

number of Muslims in attendance was was

powerful but despite searching she found

the Gathering to be really absent of any

real exchange of knowledge so she

continued to read widely but she found

that the diversity of representation of

thought in Islamic bookshops which had

once had shelves lined with Ahmed D side

by side with Hamza YF and Abu Hamza so

real diversity of like scholarly thought

this has all been supplanted by books

published almost exclusively by the

Saudi based publisher darus ban so this

influenced the direction of her own

learning and led to her taking a more

Saudi a more sufy approach to religion

as this ideological instruction was all

that was available and preachers doing

the circuit were also that way

inclined so fast forward a couple of

years of reading and Sophia was like

still deeply dissatisfied um um due to

the reduction of diversity on the

shelves of Islamic bookshops at this

point she felt like she'd read every

book available um but she was just totally

totally

unstimulated she traveled across the UK

to talks but found the repetition and

superficiality of the preacher sermons

really uninspiring and it got to the

point like she she told me where she

would go to talks and she would sit

there bored and finishing off the

sentences of the speakers because it was

so predictable everyone was saying the

same thing thing and she kept thinking

how could a religion that is over 1,400

years old and that she believes is

genuinely of the Divine Source how can

she at the age of 20 have already

managed to learn everything that there

is to learn it's impossible so Sophie

had the humility to know that this

couldn't be correct and she determined

to study to deepen her understanding so

she took up Arabic um she graduated from

University she got married and she

traveled out to state

where her husband was already studying

they had both pledged to embark on a

lifelong journey of learning and serious

study but until that point she had only ever

ever

experienced a representation of Islam in

the UK that was narrowly defined and

dogmatic because those were the

teachings um that were coming from the

same from all the same Institutes of

learning so so in the Sera of the mid

2000s um Sophia became exposed to s

influences and more mystical worship um

it was a really vibrant time in in Syria

at that point and it's so tragic what

you know sort of what's happened in

Syria since then um her more pietistic

and uh ritualistic Sol solhy

sensibilities um bulked at this um but

her quest for knowledge overcame any

reticence she just wanted to submit to

knowledge and was prepared to be led by

information that she was sure was

legitimately legitimately rooted in the

tradition so she's in a Bookshop in

Damascus um and she came across zash

she's book about AA and she decided one

day I'm going to translate this and of

course she would end up doing more than

translating the book she would 15 years

later carry out a critical study of it

and an entire PhD examining the work so

obviously unaware of what the future

hell Sophia started to quickly become

aware of interpretations of Islamic

scripture and the real realization that

all interpretation is a form of human

endeavor which is going to be limited by

societal economic political gender race

and many other

systems having that understanding of

knowledge production enabled Sophia to

separate what was divine from what is

man-made and she was able to recognize

that there are there are approaches the

to the Quran that allow Muslims to look

at verses that on the one hand

contingent as well as those which are

Eternal and this really opened up her

mind so Sophia tussled with the

education she had now immersed herself

in as it it really challenged her

learning the the learning of her

formative years but her probing

questions and engagement with her

teachers meant that not only did she

Excel as the student but her world was

opened up to a plurality of thought and

critical thinking she felt a a spark

that preachers of her youth had never

ignited she felt the expansion of her

Horizons Beyond solop Islam well to this

day remaining cognizant of the role it

played in making her a confident Muslim

and putting her on the path of learning

something that you know that is

encouraged in Sal Islam so by the time

Sophia and her husband returned from

Syria to continue their studies um at a

it was it was at a center in Wales that

they they were stud studying she was

willing to accept that there were

Alternatives such as

sism and they were not the corrupting

innovations that some of her more

Firebrand sufy preachers had warned with

inspiring teachers who challenged and

encouraged discussion Sophia felt

enriched by what she regarded as a

pedagogy in action uh Sophia and her

husband had by now moved to Turkey I

this is like a real like high traveling

couple and and where her husband was car

caring out research for his PhD um he

joined a critical reading group with

local Scholars and students from the

nearby University and at the same time

Sophia had reached a stage where she was

committed to taking truth from wherever

she found it whatever Drew her closer to

Allah and what brought her the

contentment of the heart that the

prophet had spoken of so one day her

husband came home with a copy of the

feminist Muslim scholar Amud inside the

gender Jihad and so people was Furious

she had heard all about Amina wadud's

work and had decided nothing good could

come of such teachings

teachings

um but she she she was a voracious

reader so she picked the book up and she

started to read and to her amazement she

couldn't find anything objectionable she

describes it as a crack in the veneer

and although she still felt resistance

to am's teachings it was the beginnings

of a demystifying of so-called feminist

or Progressive Scholars of Islam that

Sophia had been convinced were Absolut

absolutely Beyond The Pale so sometime

later Sophia's husband um brought home

Fatima marus the veale and the main

Elite and again she recalls you know

reading it and finding that she was

unable to disagree with much of what

manusi had

written um and as the years passed

Sophia became open to be exposed to

works such as these as did her husband

they returned to the UK and she felt her

views on salvation and pluralism in Islam

Islam

altering she decided to attend higher

education embarking upon her PhD at the

University of leads and her studies

meant she was further exposed to

different ways of thinking and a broader

view of what it means to be a Muslim

woman her openness to learning is

indicative of her willingness to submit

and remain humble and embrace knowledge

as a channel to help maintain humility

as she still continues to seek out proof

wherever it may be found as far as she

could see intellectual curiosity feeds

into our spiritual experiences and what

we then go on to deliver to our

communities for her it's individual and

also communal so Sophia's PhD is

intrinsic to her journey so both the

text author and the subject of the book

Aisha embody the ways in which

patriarchal readings of Islamic

scripture marginalized the role of women

in our understanding of Islamic history and

and

tradition so here is a woman you know

she she had grown up only hearing about

uh Aisha as a wife of the Prophet but

now she was seeing her in this

three-dimensional individual she she was

seeing her as this three-dimensional

individual in her own right who was

actually a politician a scholar an army

Commander a strategist an advisor and

she was like how is this not in the

public domain there were so many ways

that young women could imagine their own

Futures other than solely as mother and

wife um not that there's anything wrong

with just being a mother and wife um if

we had you know if only we had Aisha

represented to us in a way that truly

honored her sort of multiple ways of

being I mean of course you know Sophia's

point is not to say that the exalted

role of wife and mother should not be

revered I mean women for whom this is

for whom this vital undertaking brings

all the Fulfillment they need should be

celebrated and admired but what Sophia's

words in the example of Aisha

illustrates to me is how patriarchal

interpretations of Islam have reduced

complex and multi-talented women such as

Aisha Fierce feisty

provocative uh argumentative sometimes

difficult women into limited versions of

themselves Aisha's complexity is

stripped away and her role as wife and

mother supersedes every other aspect of her

her

identity so this so This blind spot

comes from the male privilege afforded

by generations of male Scholars which is

something ARA wud argues so new

understandings of the Quran reveal what

wud describes as possible roads towards

finding new conceptions of what it means

to be human in a religion that has had a

history of castigation from the male

Elite who were so entrenched in their

own struggles for understanding the

Divine human relations that they saw

their androcentric as a reflection of

the totality of the Divine intent sorry

that's like quite an academic sort um

quote but um but but basically these

generations of male Scholars are ever

present in a survey of the current

widely available literature derived from

accepted mainstream Islamic scholarship

and almost exclusively women are

depicted as a separate you know even inferior

inferior

species and and it doesn't have to be

this way you just need to seek out

scholarship by female Islamic

thinkers um there's obviously Al wud

there's Asma Bas there's Lea Ahmed Z

husseini kha Fatima Marin and

Sana to realize how incomplete these

patri patriarchal interpretations are so

while sopia looks back on discovering

these writings as kind of shaking up her

sufy worldview when I came across

feminist scholarship like I kind of

devoured them with gratitude because

these were trailblazing women who helped

me to confidently refuse to accept the

patriarchal Islamic scholarship of my

formative years and which advocated a

practice of Islam which was which had

been you know which was which i' grown

up to to believe was was truth but was

just based on dogma and the reality is

much of the conventional interpretation

of the Quran that has remained unchanged

for centuries consists of layers upon

layers of accepted truth built on the

interpretation of a long line of male

Scholars so narratives deep in

patriarchy inevitably they will codify

patriarchal definitions of Islamic PES

and rituals and this this Islam of male

Supremacy is without doubt steeped in

misogyny but I really don't think it's

an Islam that independently minded

critical thinkers who value autonomy can

accept so beyond the rigid and narrow

conservative Notions of such groups as

wahhabis for example Sal and various

traditionalists there are other Islams

more amable to new

understandings I mean as someone if you

started my academic Journey as a student

of literature any passive literalist

absorption of a text is in my view an

impoverished approach to Reading yet

this is what many of the traditional

Scholars offer as their interpretation

of the

Quran and the valuable you know the

valuable cont contribution of

traditional Scholars is not in any doubt

you know they they they they really they

they are to be valued and and they're

not to be dismissed but their

commentaries have often epitomized the

phenomenon of prevailing culture being

interpreted through the medium of

religion and it's also important that

these Scholars were men suggesting the

practice of the religion was inevitably

framed in the interests of men and I

think it is a fair assumption to make

you know the fact that Islam classical

Scholars are predominantly male would

explain why the prism of interpretation

has been couched in patriarchy and the

inevitable consequence of this has been

the creation of of an Islamic exeresis

that is devoid of female input and

therefore is heavily weighted in favor

of patriarchal

concerns I mean for example male

Scholars had very little access to the

multifaceted lives of the diversity of

women during The Classical period and so

could not possibly justly illustrate

their place in Islam women became

subjected to commentary and translations

and interpretations of the Quran and

Hadith with no way of representing

themselves with an authentic voice so

these classic scholars in turn

influenced contemporary traditional

commentaries by people such as uh maudi

and say and so we're thus kind of caught

in a cycle of misogyny that seems to perpetuate

perpetuate itself

itself

endlessly I also uh want to mention

someone else um I interviewed for this

book um Dr Shaman sha um is a trained

sociologist of religion so his knowledge

is is grounded firmly in an academic

perspective and his own personal

grappling uh since his late teenss with

the Islamic scriptures so unlike Sophia

he uh so so Sophia studied Islamic texts

in a traditionally authorized way

seminaries in Syria and turkey before

embarking on her postgraduate studies um

but his was a a solely kind of academic

um uh sort of trajectory so so in a in a

conversation I have with shanon he

quotes I'm

Aude we all have a prior text that we

bring to the text and this is his prior

text as a mixed race Malian Muslim who

was already beginning to question his

Islamic education when he went to study

in Australia on the scholarship and it

was a time when he was also coming to

terms with his sexuality and his

experience of racism and xenophobia had

at that time not yet become full-blown

what we Define as

islamophobia so shamon read am's Quan and

and woman

woman

um so yeah Shannon read am's Quan and

woman and am had said when she converted

to Islam that she would read the an and

if she found anything in it that didn't

sit well with her conscience then she

would no longer continue to be a Muslim

and that day never came so her book blew

his mind and he committed himself to

rereading the Quran for himself and he

picked up Abdullah YF Ali's translation

and he did exactly that and in a

conversation with we had he he said to

me when I got to the end I thought to

myself okay this is not so bad this is

the prior text stuff I expected to find

myself in it reading it as a gay man

Shaman also consulted the works of zamu

huseni Scott cougal and other Scholars

and discovered interpretive tools such

as thematic analysis and semantic

analyses so let's let's reflect for a

moment on am's

worldview um of the Quran which asks how

can you read such violence and Injustice

in a book which has a world view that is

generally about Liberation and Justice

and that was something that shanon had

never considered before so the texts

when taken in

isolation seemed to point to something

that is perceived as patriarchal but

seem to mean something else within this

larger system of

Liberation I mean after all it's when

women like Aisha as Soph Rahman came to

understand claim space and don't taught

to the patriarchal order under which

they are suffering when they don't give

up in their battle to be heard the

patriarchal Injustice can be tackled so

in my book I look at what mean what what

that means when Muslim women step out

into the public realm and all the

vulnerability and expectation that

involves um I listened to a talk by

ingred Matson um a Canadian Muslim

activist and scholar and she writes

about the necessity for Muslim women

women to take up leadership roles um she

argues that however well-meaning or

mindful your average heteronormative man

may be often the Eraser of women's

rights and marginalized groups rights

and the reinforcement of patriarchal

structures comes about because of an

absence of women speaking for women in

positions of power and

authority so women in leadership

positions of religious Authority and

spirituality are particularly to be

welcomed to CH to challenge the

resistance to a deconstruction of

Orthodox traditions and practices that

have become codified as true Islam so

Matson speaks of IB rush and his theory

of renewal and references in the Hadith

where the Prophet says at the beginning

of every Century God will Center this

community someone who will renew its

religion so throughout history both the

basic sources of Islam have been through

the lens of cultural practices of the

7th Century Society now a casual

examination and consideration of the

historical context of the original

sources upholds the perspective that

they are free from certainly

misogynistic intent so the Quran was

never intended to be approached as a

superficial legal Co code in my opinion

yet those who interpret the Quran in

this manner do so I believe to uphold

their own agenda of patri patriarchal

control and the oppression of women or

fuel the islamophobic fire that Brands

all Muslim men misogynists and all

Muslim women

oppressed I mean this is not to say that

there is nothing uncomplicated about

Islamic scripture and there are more

than a few contemporary Scholars of

Islam who struggle to find enough

evidence to be convinced that a

progressive reading is possible however

much they would like to so so speaking

with um uh with Aisha with Aisha hiah

who is the author of feminist edges of

the Quran um and I took the opportunity

to Pro to probe Aisha about a Fallout

which occurred from her exegetical focus

on on anti-patriarchal readings of the

Quran so her analysis encompasses the

Contemporary giants like R husin

Al as sh and Kish Ali and what she

produces is a considered and honest

confession and what comes through is

that for Aisha this is

aaah um not AA the prophet's wife um is

this is a deeply personal project and

her findings her findings are painful

but as far as she's concerned undeniable

so she assesses the verses in the Quran

that cause Pro women interpretations the

most unease such as verse 4 um 434 which

is the notorious wife admonishing or

wife beating verst and which translation

whichever translation suits you and

she's unable to entirely reconcile them

um she's unable to conclude anything

other than that other than that the

verse speaks of a context in which men

may hit their wives so arude on the

other hand rejects this verse outright

but however much aaah wish is to she she

can't um she explains the personal toll

that publishing this book to took and

her fear that it would fuel patriarchal

and misogynistic interpretations of

Islam But ultimately citing intellectual

honesty she stands by her reasoning and

she suggests that we engage with the

Quran as a process of co-creation while

acknowledging it to be a Divine text so

so what I mean is still for her it

doesn't mean that this isn't this is an

end to any conversation on inclusivity

in Islam it's just that for for her

answers may not be found in quranic text

but located in Islamic traditions and

practices uh

instead how am I doing okay um so um I

also want to tell you about another

conversation I had with um my good

friend Shannon um that I write about in

the book so we spoke about how the Quran

does speak and what it might mean to

engage with it as a process of

co-creation so for shanon as a gay man

as a gay Muslim believer trying to beat

a confession out of the Quran to tell us

it's not homophobic or it's not

misogynistic is for him the less

interesting discussion and he talks

about the more interesting discussion is

what were these other themes in other

Traditions that the was actively

engaging in as well and what was

everyone thinking about gender at that

time so there were texts in Judaism and

Christianity that were circulated in the

ancient world but were never canonized

and they are stories that can that can

be found in the Quran and as Muslims you

know let's explore these scriptural

worlds from other

traditions for me I think the difficulty

is that we're the Quran perfects

everything that comes before it and

Muslims don't need anything else and

this is something that you know I really

question and you know something that in

my conversations with Shannon you know

key questions too I remember he you know

he said to me in the same quranic Sur

you might have two different verses

saying two different things about how

many women a man is permitted to marry

for example and I remember another

another example that he and I discussed

which was of a Jewish rabbi who because

of the way that um the Jewish Traditions

read Genesis decided that actually there

are many Androgen eyes in the world and

therefore there must be six or seven

genders and the thing

is Scholars of Islam had these similar

discussions and it you know it could be

the case that perhaps their aims were

ultimately conservative perhaps they

were aiming to uphold the patriarchal

order so if they had discussions about

the possibility of six or seven genders

it would be to discuss how they must

comply within the patriarchal

heteronormative system but the point is

that they were open to having these

discussions in the first place so

reading the Quran from page one to the

end nobody read it that way at that time

these were written scriptures but they

were also circulated as oral texts and

people would meditate on certain

passages and uncover layers of meaning

which could be which could be personal

or developed collectively in the

community and rules were derived from

them and that's the kind of reading

we're simply not encouraged as Muslims to

undertake so I just want to reflect

quickly on some contemporary um how to

describe culture War type

issues um so amude in in Quran and woman

as well as locating the world viw of the

Quran as shamon describes um the key in

challenging patriarchal readings of the

Quran and the subsequent patriarchal

practice of Islam is to understand that

a lies Beyond gender so pronouns let's

talk about pronouns pronouns are a point

of moral Panic these days yet it was

before the abundance of bad faith

willful misunderstanding of the notion

of misgendering that Amud began arguing

that to exclusively use the masculine

pronoun negates the concept of bedic

unity or the Oneness of God so using

feminine or plural pronouns for Allah

recognizes that rigid gender bound

binaries are a construction of our

contemporary context and this has become

hardened since the onset of

modernity and you know what this makes a

lot of sense to me and there are plenty

of Scholars even you know for example

Michael Muhammad Knight um who you know

he discussed wanting to believe in a

progressive who who wanted to believe in

Progressive iterations of Islam such as

queer friendly interpretations of the

story of loot um but but said in the end

that you know they needed something more

concrete um you know I explore Muslim

women's uh sexual selves and the lived

reality of Muslim sexuality and some

depth in the book but suffice to say

there is so much hand ringing amongst

socially liberal Muslims who seek

definitive verses and Hadith that they

can refer their bigoted Faith fellows to

however even with Michael Muhammad M he

he in 2020 he wrote a book called

Muhammad's body um and he looks at the

way in which semantics of Arabic grammar

have prioritized masculine pronouns um

there is

no gender neutral pronoun that currently

exists in Arabic grammar so this brings

him much closer to amu's view there's

also Muhammad Fadel in his seminal work

two women one man which offers another

perspective as well as am he he takes

the works of Le Ahmed and F Mari who

also very much inform my own reading of

the Quran and analyzes their argument

that Islam is at its Essence a gender

neutral belief system that has been

obscured by a centuries long tradition

of male dominated interpretation so

Fidel introduces the concept of

political versus normative discourse to

illustrate the tension between feminist

readings of the Quran which appeared to

suggest that there is a true objective

interpretation which promotes gender

equality and an array of postmodern

readings which are subjective and

therefore to be

discounted so so my discomfort with this

position is that it disregards what a

very good friend of mine um Lea jagela

who's written an amazing book you should

look it up um has discussed in her

writings and talks that it is the

traditions of Muslim societies that

offer the missing pieces of the jigsaw

puzzle that in its completion points to

a framework of equity and Justice as

inherent to what it means to be a

Muslim so this is um this is a quote

that um Maria said she particularly

liked to reduce Islam to texts is to

miss the essence of what it is to be a

Muslim Islam is more than a series of

texts it's also a series of

histories so it's um so it's hugely

seductive um to regard the first the

very first Believers as the original and

authentic Muslims untainted by cultural baggage

baggage

and in a world where many Muslims feel

disaffected and demonized by the

dominant Global narrative and trapped in

the cycle of capitalism's dehumanization

of our spiritual selves it's tempting to

find a way to reject contemporary

culture and everything it stands for and

to seek Solace and Direction and

validation as a way in a way of life

utterly removed from all that is around

us so looking to romanticized looking to

a r romanticized um perfect past you

know is by no means exclusive to Muslims

I mean how many times have we heard sort

of you know Back to Basics and the

conservatives talking about you know the

Golden Era of you know what it means to

be British um you know this this is this

is you know this is a um you know this

is not exclusive to Muslims however this

yearning to mirror life as it was lived

in the prophet's time it seems

undermined by a point rarely

acknowledged that the prophet and his

companion indeed the entirety of the

early Muslim Community lived in a

society in which customs and culture

were already in existence they did not

live in a vacuum and it's hardly

feasible that even as Islam was revealed

and pract practiced they were able to

insulate themselves from the pre-islamic

culture into which they were

born two minutes okay so um so Islam was

revealed in an era vastly different from

the one in which we live today we can

only discover its meaning and relevance

for contemporary Times by lifting it out

of its 7th Century cultural context and

understanding how it was shaped by its

7th Century context and its contact with

surrounding Moray including you know

patriarchal Norms prevalent in the

assassinate Empire the the byzantines

and so on so revisiting how we engage

with the text is also crucial many of us

who grew up uh being discouraged Ed from

questioning or engaging with Islamic

texts in any kind of critical or

interpretive way we look for easy

two-dimensional answers rather than

building complicated truths if we want

to discover whether the Quran upholds

patriarchy or enables misogyny perhaps

we need to ask questions of the text we

should be bold enough to ask what does

this really mean and to be honest with

ourselves and admit when we're not

getting to the heart of it or if or if

we feel uncomfortable with its

interpretation that is how one embodies

Islamic texts as part of a lived

experience rather than reading it

passively or trying to bend it out of

shape because we want it to conform to

whatever we want it to conform to this

is how we locate feminism whatever

feminism means to us in Islam thank you

thank you Samia we have 15 minutes for

questions and I know there's a few

people that really want to ask some

questions so there's a a robing mic and

to can I start with a question myself so

I can I can yeah got SM so s in your

book you talk about and you've already

shared my my favorite verse which is

excellent and you

critique texts from the Quran and the

histories of the Quran and as a Muslim

growing up um if we were to ever

question what the scriptures were there

was always this um saying from my

parents it was like an aakar moment you

don't question you just absorb the text

and you follow how did you then come to

a a point in time where you actually

accepted I'm going to I'm going to write

this book I'm going to follow what I'm

thinking you know is Islam misogynistic

what was the turning point I think um

I mean I think it's like kind of finding

that balance as a believer of submission

because there is this idea of submission

um you know in Islamic practice which I

think is a really beautiful one because

it's about trust yes but you can submit

and you can have trust without being

complacent and I think you know I think

you know any every woman has experienced

misogyny right and every Muslim woman

has experienced misogyny as a Muslim

women perpetrated by whether it's from

within the community whether it's

externally um whether it's from White

feminism whether it's from kind of you

know the sort of the Orthodox and

whether it's from women you know

perpetuating misogyny upon

women so I mean it's interesting you

should ask that question because I I

really struggled um I really struggled

and was unsure whether or not I should

write this book because I was really

terrified of fueling islamophobia

because let's face it you know Muslim

men are so demonized whether it's you

know kind of I mean you know talking

about you know um I mean I you know I

can't I can't you know my mind my mind

is is so much in Gaza right now and you

know we talk about you know you know

women and children and the Innocents

dying but what about the Muslim men you

know and um you know and there's the the

sort of the the demonization of the

Pakistani Muslim you know Taxi Driver

he's just kind of trying to earn a

living for his friends and he's you know

being kind of you know portrayed as a

groomer and um you know you know and

there's you know there's there's racism

there's islamophobia there are sort of

structures of violence you know

patriarchy is a structure of violence

and its victims are women and men and

you know it's it's all you know so so I

felt that this was an important book um

to write but also I had to you know I

had to ensure

that this was representative absolutely

um because the experience of Muslim

women is so diverse um we're not a

monolithic or

homogeneous uh Community you know we

have such an array of different sort of

viewpoints and

experiences um

so in the end I just um I I had some you

know experienc some sort of misogynistic

experiences in my personal and

professional life which I also allude to

in the book because I got to be careful

about Lial laws um uh so that was uh a

bit of a turning point for me actually than

than

gentleman thank you for a very

interesting and enlightening talk I'm

ignorant about Muslim things but um is

there um H how widespread is your

view um who decides what a Muslim

is um so are you just seen as a sort of

a um a liberal someone who was given

into the

culture uh and therefore should be

avoided by all true Muslims um or is

there a way where you can be

validated by by whether Islam has a

hierarchy I don't know of some

Archbishop somewhere equivalent of you

know saying no you're you're you're your

solid kind of thing um so sorry for my

ignorance but I'm just trying to see how

widespread is is your understanding of

of of of Islam and your interpretations

of the

Quran please do yeah excellent question

I mean I don't claim to speak for

anybody um and I don't want to you know

to speak for others you know everybody's

entitled um to their perspective um but

I think it's important to acknowledge

that there is such a plurality of

thought within Muslim communities it's

often just sort of you know behind

closed doors um I there is there there's

not really a

hierarchy um I don't know I mean is my

is my perspective widespread or not I

think what I would you know I don't

really the answer to that I just would

say that a lot of conversations are

taking place and I think um I mean we

were talking about this earlyer that

intergenerationally um there's a lot of

uh Divergence of of thought so you know

young people um are sort of having

conversations that perhaps their parents

or grandparents would never dream of

having um or have um or have a way of

sort of inter ating the texts that is

different to the sort of passive

absorption that you know sort of other

Generations um are used to and also it's

important to sort of to understand that

you know because I mean just thinking

about Muslims in Britain are drawn from

such diverse um you know kind of you

know ethnic Origins and there are

Traditions um of debate and discussion

which are very alive in different

communities and the South Asian

experience for example is not the

universal one um and I think yeah I mean

I think um this isn't you know this is

not really about sort of you know this

is what I think and this is what I think

you should all think I me that's not my

that's not my position at all I just um

you know I just celebrate uh taking

personal responsibility for what you

believe and um and I'm also really

really open and would welcome you know

push back and because you know this you

know any kind of sort of trajectory of

Faith the practice of Faith um the

understanding of faith and you know sort

of figuring out what we believe is is a

lifelong kind of Journey and it should

be um so um I mean you know some people

you know I mean for example somebody

like I'm an dude who I talk about a lot

I mean I would so recommend you read her

books um she was considered very Fringe

maybe 10 years ago um but I think these

kind of um you know these I me I mean

you know who who gets to decide what's

Fringe what's the you know what's the

center what is you know what what is

Marg you know the margins you know are

sort of moving you know the the the

needle is Shifting um so I think you

know there's a lot of streaming of a lot

of these ideas that is occurring and and

I would also say that in more Orthodox conservative

conservative

spaces or spaces that are outwardly

perceived as being Orthodox or

conservative however you want to define

those terms um there are some very

interesting conversations going on um in

those spaces it's just

very um you know it's it's it's private

it's it's it's being carried out

privately because I think a lot of

Muslims know that when you do speak up

when you

do when you do talk specifically about

contentious um issues or issues that are

a little bit uh

controversial um it's you know there's a

there's there's a tendency to either be

sort of shouted down or co-opted or um

utilized for you know kind of certain agendas

agendas

um you know I mean there's there's a

there's a lot of um I think you know

there's sometimes a fear of of sort of

you know being being used to fuel

islamophobia when you speak out about

these things and so so these

conversations they they're taking place

but perhaps behind closed

doors one more question just

thank you so much for the very rich and

um enlightening conversation about this

uh this topic my question really refers

to the uh the title of your of your

session but also uh the content of what

you've uh you've discussed as much as

you referred so much to um people you've

talked to who've written many books

about about Islam the question that I

really have have refers to whether this

is not just um a topic of misogyny in

religion in general and also how patrial

our societies are depending on where we

are I think even the Western World had

these issues not so long ago where uh

women would not particularly position

themselves as they do right now so is it

something that you see in the work

you're doing uh having probably evolved

in certain societies but it's actually

still present I when I say religion I

also refer to Christianity where you see

a lot of uh women expected to be

submissive to their husbands which is

something that we don't particularly

often talk about so is it something that

you also see in your research thank you

thank you that's a really really good

question and yes absolutely I mean at

the beginning of my talk I said we

Muslims we do not have the Monopoly on

misogyny you know we're not like the

world experts on misogyny misogyny is

everywhere is like a universal issue and

this idea in the West you know that that

we live in this post sexist post-racist

society it's it's a myth I mean this is

not the case you know there were so many

examples of misogyny that occur I mean I

think is something like there there's a

statistic that blew me away about the

sort of um you know the prevalence of

domestic violence in the UK as an

example I mean we you know it's not all

fine in any society it just manifests

itself in different ways um and and and

really you know this is you know this is

one of my big push backs this is

something that I really wish to address

that this idea that you know it's

particularly bad to be a woman to be

some marginalized Community to be gay

because you are Muslim is just you know

that's that's not the case I mean there

were you know there's you know there's

there's there's relatives um you know

there's there's sort of

states of of kind of harm that you can

be um that can be inflicted upon you and

I'm not making any excuses and and I'm

not pretending that Muslim societies are

like a Utopia of you know kind of um

equality but you know there is there are

problems everywhere and the problem is

patriarchy and the problem is men well

the problem is patriarchy I mean men are

victims of patriarchy as much as women

are um so yeah that's that's definitely

the case thank you very much uh I'm

conscious it's um near the end of the

session and I know that Samia will be

signing some books if anybody's

interested there is um samia's book you

can get a hold of that which is at The

Book Stall the entrance um with our

partners Fox Fox Lane books um thank you

so much Samia for an amazing talk and

thank you for some really good questions

thank you

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