0:23 Mula a founding member and second in the
0:26 lead of the Taliban was arrested in 2010
0:29 Karachi Pakistan this crucial leader of
0:32 the most sist and anti-woman group in
0:34 the world was arrested by a female CIA
0:38 agent Sarah Adams today Miss Adams tells
0:41 us about the details of M brother's
0:45 arrest I will also ask her about why the
0:48 United States never designated the
0:50 Taliban as a terror group and what kind
0:53 of threats can be expected from a
0:55 Taliban ruled
0:57 Afghanistan Miss Adams thank you so much
1:00 for this opportunity
1:02 thank you for having me so how long have
1:05 you been with the
1:08 CIA um when I was in the CIA I spent a
1:11 decade there so I left the CIA in
1:15 2015 why you joined and why you left can
1:17 you elaborate on
1:20 that yeah why I joined is pretty simple
1:23 my um graduate thesis was on cashmir so
1:25 there was only like two places I could
1:27 think to apply to jobs the CIA and the
1:29 state department you know to work in
1:30 that topic area
1:31 and I left because I was actually
1:34 recruited out I got recruited out um on
1:36 what was called the select committee in
1:38 Benghazi at the time and that's why I've
1:40 been working Libyan terrorism ever
1:44 since but you had like 10 years of very
1:48 close um experience on Afghanistan and
1:50 the Taliban and other Terror groups in
1:51 the region
1:54 right yes I started working in Pakistan
1:57 and Afghanistan um and then I shifted um
1:59 and I worked Libya and then Iran so I
2:02 have a good good combo of um a lot of
2:05 actors playing in Afghanistan today we
2:08 know that you were stationed in in
2:11 Pakistan but did you go to Afghanistan as
2:11 as
2:14 well no I've actually never been to
2:17 Afghanistan you worked on uh groups like
2:19 Taliban but you never went to Afghanistan
2:20 Afghanistan
2:23 why well actually the main group I
2:25 worked on was lashari jangi um a
2:28 Pakistani terrorist group I ended up
2:30 working on Taliban cuz I got asked to
2:34 fill um an empty spot um targeting the
2:37 Taliban and I took that like as a last
2:38 minute opportunity so it actually wasn't
2:41 my account okay that's interesting what
2:43 was this empty spot on the Taliban that
2:44 you took the
2:46 opportunity it was one of the targeting
2:48 positions um to go after the senior
2:50 leadership of the Taliban and that
2:52 position was the top three of the
2:55 Taliban who were these top three one was
2:57 M who were two
3:00 others yep um number one at the time was
3:02 Mula Omar and then number three at the
3:06 time was Mula octar Muhammad Mansour and
3:08 you were responsible only for mulab
3:10 brother or the two others as
3:14 well I was responsible for all three of
3:17 them okay
3:20 um how you got m m brother and not the two
3:22 two
3:25 others yeah I mean it was pretty simple
3:27 um I actually was under the assessment
3:30 Mula Omar stayed in Afghanistan um I
3:31 know a lot of people don't agree with
3:33 that assessment but that's what I
3:34 believed at the time and I believe to
3:38 this day and then um Mula Oar Muhammad
3:40 Mansour was very interesting he was
3:43 spending all of his time I'm an area of
3:45 Pakistan called Dal band deine it's a
3:48 refugee area it's very difficult as you
3:50 can imagine for anyone to operate in
3:54 there even the Pakistani um forces so he
3:56 was just like in a very tough um
3:59 location so really Mula braer was kind
4:02 of the easiest action but you know we
4:06 also hear that Mahar Mansour had great
4:08 relations with mrtis you would go he
4:11 would go to UAE and you know some
4:14 private jets will take him from Karachi to
4:16 to
4:21 Dubai I mean how that kind of you know
4:25 high-profile um you know uh travels
4:28 could be unnoticed by
4:31 CIA the the year I was there he was
4:34 pretty well mostly based that year um in
4:37 D bondan um of course we tracked him as
4:40 you know for for many many years but the
4:43 year I worked him um he wasn't moving
4:46 around a lot I'm not sure why um but he
4:48 really wasn't doing any sort of foreign
4:51 travel and he wasn't going into
4:53 Afghanistan either at the time as you
4:55 know in later years he um started going
4:57 to Afghanistan more and um that led to
5:01 his demise so you said that mulab was
5:05 the easiest one to track and and uh
5:07 capture why was
5:10 that it's because he was um based
5:11 actually in what we call the Pakistani
5:14 settled areas that's usually the cities
5:18 of like Islamabad Karachi laor and
5:20 sometimes Pasha can fall into that
5:22 category so like they're living among
5:25 the population um the Pakistani
5:28 population you know when um a terrorist
5:30 is in somewhere like a refugee camp or
5:31 something that's they're living among
5:33 their own population and that makes it
5:36 much harder but living among a mixed
5:38 Pakistani population is different so he
5:40 was living in a very upscale
5:42 neighborhood in Karachi called gani
5:45 Mayar so it wasn't like a refugee
5:48 Community there weren't a lot of like
5:50 Afghans living in that location it was
5:53 where um you know well off pakistanis
5:56 lived so it means that the Pakistani
6:00 government was probably aware of his
6:02 existence and uh whereabouts
6:05 right well I definitely think they were
6:08 aware of his existence in Pakistan um
6:10 now do they know the exact house he
6:13 lived in um I never saw indication of
6:15 that and he had multiple houses um as
6:18 you likely aware so I don't think that
6:22 um we know that for sure how long you
6:25 you followed him and tracked him one
6:29 year one year and he was only based in
6:31 that place or he was moving around
6:34 different uh houses and
6:36 cities yeah he was based going back and
6:39 forth between Kachi in qua Pakistan he
6:42 had another house in qua or was he uh
6:46 visiting qua to you know um meet other Taliban
6:47 Taliban
6:50 leaders he had two wives one was based
6:52 in Pakistan one was based in qua he had
6:54 to go between the two to visit his
6:56 families Karachi and
7:00 qua okay and how did you capture him
7:02 tell us about
7:04 that yeah I mean we can't give obviously
7:06 too many details about capture but you
7:09 know as I wrote in my book um it was
7:12 almost luck his um son had stolen an old
7:15 phone of his from the closet and brought
7:18 it on a trip with his father so
7:21 obviously um you know the phone became
7:23 active for a long period of time which
7:27 allowed us to track and locate um him
7:30 properly and how old was uh how old was this
7:30 this
7:35 son he was about 16 years old so they
7:37 were traveling from qua back to karach
7:39 or vice
7:43 versa it the other way Karachi qua and
7:46 then back when he returned to Karachi
7:47 you went
7:51 and how many people uh you were I mean
7:54 the CIA agents who were involved in this uh
7:55 uh
7:58 arrest obviously I can't give numbers um
8:00 we did wait till the phone came back to
8:02 Karachi because I made the assessment
8:04 that um a child might have taken the
8:07 phone or a family member because you
8:09 know it's not how a senior leader would
8:11 operate so we didn't want to
8:12 accidentally um as you can imagine
8:15 detain a wife or a child um so that's
8:17 why we waited until the phone returned
8:21 to where um we believed his house was
8:26 located did you involve Pakistani um
8:30 like police or intelligence
8:32 well how it works um I know a lot of
8:33 people like obviously if you've been in
8:35 Afghanistan and Iraq it's kind of a war
8:38 zone and there's a US military there in
8:40 every other country in the world as you
8:42 can imagine we have to work with the
8:44 foreign governments we can't just go out
8:45 and you know pick up people on the
8:48 streets um ourselves you saw when we did
8:51 that in Italy and it became a lot of um
8:54 problems you know after 911 so we always
8:57 work with the local um forces on these
9:00 type of things so Pakistani police or
9:04 cisi who who helped you with that well
9:06 how it works in Pakistan wherever you
9:08 are it has to be somebody with arrest
9:10 Authority so whatever City you're in you
9:12 have to have an element that has an
9:14 arrest Authority and that's the standard
9:16 for like us
9:20 law but when muladar was arrested you
9:22 went inside inside the house what did
9:25 you see there there were family like
9:28 children and woman or he was alone what
9:30 kind of situation was that
9:32 yeah I didn't go into the house but yeah
9:35 he was there with his family um it was a
9:37 family home it wasn't like a a safe
9:40 house or a militant headquarters um yeah
9:42 there was a woman and children um
9:45 present in the house and you arrested
9:47 only M brother
9:50 himself um we actually took three people
9:53 we re released the other two um so we
9:56 did really take like the three oldest
10:00 males and who were the other two uh
10:03 males one was the son who like I
10:05 assessed was likely underage and asked
10:07 him to be released and the other was a
10:11 nephew um and I'm not exactly sure who
10:12 made the decision on him but the other
10:15 was his his nephew who might have been
10:16 um a little older he could have been 18
10:19 or 19 years old okay did you did you
10:23 face any resistance uh from M brother
10:26 and his family while arresting him or what
10:28 what
10:30 happened you know from what I know
10:33 there's nothing out of the ordinary um
10:35 nothing um happened like from a physical
10:38 sense or with weapons or anything did
10:40 you have his uh photos because we never
10:44 saw his photo before his
10:46 arrest yeah um we didn't really have
10:48 what I would say an accurate photo of
10:51 him um when we detained him so no we did
10:54 we collected a photo after his arrest
10:56 okay but several photos were you know
11:00 published on media claiming as mulab
11:03 brother but those photos they weren't so
11:06 you are sure that this person that who
11:08 is mulab brother now the Deputy Prime
11:11 Minister of Taliban this is the guy you
11:14 arrested yes that's M Liberator that I
11:16 we I met yes so tell us what happened
11:19 after you arrested him uh did you take
11:24 him to your um office your station or what
11:25 what
11:27 happened well as I noted we're in a
11:28 foreign country right he stays in the
11:31 cust city of that foreign country um at
11:34 the time it was really interesting I had
11:35 thought maybe my government would
11:38 extradite him um usually we extradite
11:41 terrorists to New York we have a um a
11:42 kind of
11:45 a Judicial piece um in the southern
11:47 district of New York that puts in a lot
11:50 of charges against terrorism um that
11:52 never happened out of the US and I
11:54 actually also thought The Afghan
11:56 government would request he be
11:58 transferred somewhere like to Bam but
12:00 the only thing the afan government asked
12:02 for us to release him so he actually
12:04 remained in Pakistani custody because
12:07 the other two governments didn't put in
12:09 an extradition request but the question
12:12 remains you were ordered by your uh
12:16 agency CIA to arrest him to what so what
12:18 happens after
12:20 arrest yeah so obviously when he's in
12:23 the custody of an intelligence agency um
12:24 they ask questions and collect
12:27 intelligence you need someone to move
12:29 into a judicial process
12:33 to charge them right to give them a
12:37 sentence from like a judge and um nobody
12:39 in the US government actually ever put
12:42 that into place but you did the
12:44 questioning and
12:47 interrogation yes for um the first month a
12:48 a
12:51 month a monthlong introd then my year
12:53 ended yeah then my year ended and I went
12:56 home so during this month is there
12:58 anything interesting that you find out from
13:00 from
13:03 him I mean I can't really talk about you
13:06 know what he said but what I found
13:08 interesting was what my government was
13:10 interested in right and my government
13:13 only seemed to be interested in
13:15 reconciliation um when they gave us
13:17 questions for him so at that time even
13:20 in early 2010 there was really only a
13:23 plan to negotiate with the Taliban you
13:25 know from for some sort of government
13:27 sharing at the time they called it
13:29 reconciliation it obviously became the
13:32 Doha deal but that was already in play
13:34 in 2010 so that's what I found
13:36 interesting and that's what we focused
13:39 on in discussions with him did you find
13:42 any um interesting information about
13:45 taliban's relationship with isi and
13:47 taliban's relationship with Al-Qaeda and other
13:49 other
13:51 groups to be honest um our government
13:53 wasn't asking those kind of questions
13:55 which I think could be surprising to
13:58 people I found a lot of contempt between
13:59 how he felt toward
14:02 um isi in Pakistan and the way he
14:04 responded to things and dealt with
14:08 situations um he did not seem to have
14:12 any sort of positive view of isi or
14:14 Pakistan in any way from my opinion um
14:17 and I can't remember us really having
14:19 much of a discussion um regarding
14:21 Al-Qaeda at the time I'm sure you're
14:24 aware of the sentiment inside
14:26 Afghanistan you know when we were uh
14:31 watching this news as uh he was arrested
14:32 it was taken inside Afghanistan
14:34 especially especially inside the
14:36 government as a conspiracy by the
14:40 pakistanies to ruin the possibilities of
14:44 any peace talks between the Taliban and
14:47 hammed Karai's uh government
14:49 because hammed Karai's government was
14:52 kind of saying that mad was ready for peace
14:54 peace
14:57 STS yeah I've heard those conspiracies
14:59 um obviously it's not what happened
15:01 right it was just my job to capture the
15:04 top three and won the opportunity to
15:06 present himself and I C um captured him
15:09 the thing is though um the US assessment
15:11 at the time like our state Department's
15:13 assessment was there would be no
15:16 reconciliation with a Mula berer so our
15:19 US state department did have him um him
15:24 and taba as the top two to use for that
15:26 but mul berer was not um interested at
15:29 the time and he wasn't ready for Recon
15:31 ilation and he sure wasn't ready to do
15:34 it with United States or Pakistan so at
15:37 least at that time I make the assessment
15:40 for my interactions he had no
15:43 interest in participating yeah as I you
15:46 know just a bit more details about the
15:48 arrest and the interrogations as I
15:50 mentioned in the uh
15:54 introduction um you know a leader of One
15:57 of most misogynist groups in the world
15:59 anti-woman groups in the world
16:01 is being arrested by a
16:05 woman did he express any feelings or
16:07 reactions to that or how did you feel
16:10 when you arrested
16:13 him I mean I was happy to arrest him as
16:15 you can imagine because um you know it
16:18 was uh an important pillar of my job
16:20 right I was given three difficult
16:23 targets he was um he did not have any
16:25 issues that I was a woman um and he
16:28 treated me with respect right he's a
16:30 senior leader in an organization I think
16:33 he he knows how to um communicate with
16:35 people how to influence people and he's
16:38 very good at persuasion so I think he
16:42 knew um how to interact with me
16:44 appropriately and did it like he was
16:46 very professional in the way he handled
16:48 it what do you mean appropriate and
16:50 professional what do you mean can you
16:51 give us
16:54 details yeah well I think he knew right
16:56 he was under a microscope I mean he has
17:00 a very large ego he knows his importance
17:03 right he knows his value and he likely
17:05 knew um the president of the United
17:08 States was paying attention right so he
17:11 wanted to um show himself in the best
17:13 light possible you know being the number
17:16 two of you know the organization which
17:19 was the Taliban so in an interview you
17:22 said that you had a list of top 10 Taliban
17:23 Taliban
17:26 leaders uh what what were your orders
17:30 just to capture them or kill them as
17:33 well for the Taliban it was primarily to
17:35 capture them um as you said at the
17:37 beginning of the show they were never
17:39 designated a terrorist organization so a
17:42 lot of them we did not have like um a legal
17:43 legal
17:47 authority to um do some sort of um you
17:49 know to kill them essentially um you
17:52 know that there is authorities for that
17:54 I believe they were on Mula Omar but not
17:56 every member of the Taliban had those
17:57 because they weren't a designated
17:59 terrorist organization so was a little
18:01 more complicated than if we were talking
18:04 about the top three of al-Qaeda okay but
18:08 you killed Mahar mansur later after you
18:13 know he took over uh from mulab Omar yes
18:15 he got the authorities when he became
18:17 head of the Taliban and lethal
18:19 authorities were placed on him it was
18:21 after my time but yes they legally were
18:24 able to go after him in that capacity so
18:27 you mean legally the number one of the
18:32 Taliban were like uh in the um head
18:35 Target to be killed not number two and number
18:35 number
18:38 three yeah I don't remember if they were
18:39 on two and three at the time but I know
18:42 it was on um number one but for the most
18:44 part it wasn't on any Taliban members
18:48 and it was maybe on 20 Al-Qaeda members
18:52 okay I see but can you tell us why um
18:55 the US government never designated
18:58 Taliban as a terror organization while
19:00 other organiz ations such as TTP and
19:03 Al-Qaeda and others were U designated as Terror
19:05 Terror
19:07 organizations yeah it's a good question
19:08 it's something I fought the little bit
19:10 of time I work Taliban I was trying to
19:14 get them designated the problem is um
19:16 the big problem is our state department
19:18 right they viewed the Taliban as a
19:21 political organization um and there long
19:23 been hopes to do negotiations with the
19:26 Taliban as a political organization and
19:29 if they got designated obviously those
19:32 plans um couldn't go through so there's
19:33 always been push back you know it's not
19:36 just the state department um there there
19:39 were Afghans also advocating against
19:42 designated them you know like um Z kazad
19:44 you know is probably the most
19:46 influential to keep Taliban off the
19:49 terrorist um list so yeah there was a
19:52 lot of push internally but politically
19:55 um they just had too much lobbying um we
19:57 still have too much Taliban sympathizing
19:59 in the US government um and hurting us
20:02 even to this day and why was that why
20:05 they were lobbying for uh on behalf of
20:06 the Taliban what do you
20:09 think I mean part of it probably
20:13 corruption greed um there could be some
20:16 nationalism problems right it just could
20:18 be people who have a little more racism
20:20 against people in their own country I
20:21 mean I think there's probably a lot of
20:23 issues at Bay
20:25 unfortunately um and you know people
20:27 just take advantage of situations like
20:29 that I think a lot of people lobbying at
20:32 the time weren't doing in the best
20:33 interest Afghanistan they were doing it
20:35 probably in the best interest of
20:38 themselves and their family greed um and
20:40 how it's going to best impact them in
20:41 the future
20:45 unfortunately so yesterday uh State
20:49 Department spokesperson vidon Patel uh
20:51 called the Taliban a designated Terror
20:54 organization do you think it's a change
20:58 of policy or just a slip of tongue how
21:00 do you assist
21:03 that I mean I think it was a slip of
21:04 tongue I think if you went back and
21:06 pressed him though he could say well the
21:09 hakani network is a designated terrorist
21:10 group and he'll be able to get off on
21:13 his comment I do think it was a slip of
21:15 the tongue we do want our state
21:16 department to start calling them a
21:18 designated terrorist organization but
21:19 they aren't um and it is an issue and
21:21 they need to start doing it so you
21:24 mentioned hakani network hakani network
21:27 has been designated as terror group and
21:29 of course the leader of hakani network
21:33 saraj hakani is has a bounty on his head
21:38 but uh you know you know where he is Cia
21:41 knows FBI knows nothing happens to him
21:49 that yes why is that is the question um
21:52 you know I have a theory on it I you
21:54 know I hate to say theories but I
21:55 honestly think there might be people in
21:59 the US government that think sjin hakani
22:01 could be a counterbalance um to the
22:03 Russians you know we have a huge push in
22:05 our country right now focused on the war
22:08 in Ukraine um I think if this is a
22:10 decision they're making it's a very bad
22:14 policy decision right because um SJ is
22:17 two-faced right he plays all sides um
22:19 you know he's a threat he's he's a
22:21 threat to our homeland right um as most
22:23 Afghans know he's creating the passports
22:26 for the terrorists coming here so yeah I
22:29 think this is again uh the wrong
22:31 assessment on the Taliban and the wrong
22:33 assessment related to Afghanistan and
22:35 we've all been dealing with these bad
22:37 assessments now 20 years um we have to
22:39 change people's thoughts Sarah it is
22:42 very difficult for my audiences back
22:45 home in Afghanistan to accept such kind
22:48 of Assessments that you know a
22:51 superpower like the United States um
22:54 have bad assessments not for a year a
22:57 month or a decade but for you know this
23:02 long uh why you think uh people should
23:04 uh you know accept and Trust such kind
23:06 of Assessments that this is just you
23:09 know an error not a
23:11 policy oh no I think this is both an
23:14 error and a policy right um you know I
23:18 disagree completely um with this support
23:20 of sadin hakani right he should have
23:22 been detained the second he left
23:24 Afghanistan when he went to both UAE and
23:26 Saudi Arabia the problem is I think
23:28 there's people making probably very good
23:31 assessments within our government but
23:34 the there's politics involved we call it
23:36 the politicalization of intelligence
23:39 right and that influences intelligence
23:41 um you know I don't know if your
23:43 audience remembers but years back um
23:46 there was a lot of pressure from the in
23:47 to the intelligence analysts in our
23:51 government to downplay Isis right so now
23:53 the same thing's happening they're being
23:55 pressured to downplay what's happening
23:58 in Afghanistan be it the Taliban be it
24:02 Al-Qaeda you know Etc so yeah it's
24:06 politics is influencing the quality of
24:09 the assessments coming out okay so let's
24:13 come to the um the taliban's uh
24:15 relations with the other Terror groups
24:18 in Afghanistan and outside Afghanistan
24:21 according to the Doha deal Taliban have
24:24 to must you know cut ties with Al-Qaeda
24:27 TTP and others uh do you think they have
24:30 cut their ties with um
24:33 Al-Qaeda they 100% haven't cut their
24:34 ties with Al-Qaeda first they're
24:36 intermarried so they're almost the same
24:39 group um basically all the al-Qaeda
24:42 camps also have the Taliban on it and
24:45 then Taliban also funds Al-Qaeda so yeah
24:49 they're 100% involved in al-Qaeda so how
24:52 that can be go unnoticed by CIA and
24:54 other agencies in the United
24:56 States I don't think it's going un
24:59 notice I think for politics nobody's
25:02 being honest that it's happening um and
25:03 you know when something bad happens
25:04 they're all going to be in front of
25:07 Congress saying oh I didn't realize this
25:09 and um they're lying so there should be
25:12 an interest then you know um what is
25:14 that interest for the United States to
25:18 you know turn a blind eye on taliban's
25:20 relationship as you said with
25:24 Al-Qaeda the crazy part is um how it
25:26 works in the US government is like
25:28 they're like a dog like chasing a ball
25:30 and then when a new toy comes up he like
25:33 turns his head right and so the US has
25:35 done this shift right like we're
25:37 supposed to be focused on China we're
25:38 supposed to be focused on Russia we
25:41 don't want to care we don't want to hear
25:43 about counterterrorism they took a lot
25:44 of dollars from counterterrorism
25:47 departments right they they removed some
25:49 counterterrorism departments so there's
25:52 way less people working on this issue um
25:54 because the US doesn't want to make it a
25:57 priority like they don't actually lay
26:00 out what is the enemy think what threats
26:03 come from the enemy they focus on who
26:05 they want to be the enemy at a certain
26:08 time and it's a very bad policy um we
26:11 we're losing Wars because of it um as
26:13 you know and and the whole Middle East
26:15 is is blowing up um and nobody's doing
26:18 the right Focus they're responding after
26:20 the fact if you respond after the fact
26:21 you're doing nothing is there an
26:24 assessment within the US government that
26:26 Al-Qaeda is not a threat anymore to the
26:31 US or qaa has changed its goals
26:34 globally yeah I mean if you look at
26:36 earlier in the year in February the US
26:39 government so our office of um like
26:41 National Intelligence did put out an
26:44 assessment that basically Al-Qaeda is I
26:46 think they said in an operational like
26:49 pause almost that they couldn't project
26:52 forward that they couldn't command their
26:55 forces in outside locations so they did
26:57 put out an assessment the assessment
26:59 obviously is wrong and as you've seen
27:02 even over the last 6 to8 weeks we've
27:04 seen senior leaders in our government
27:07 having to say oh there is a threat there
27:11 is a problem we had the leader of our
27:12 national counterterrorism Center she's
27:14 stepping down but while stepping down
27:17 she put out an assessment on it which
27:19 she was involved in that report that
27:21 wasn't included our head of FBI just
27:24 said it last week right he was involved
27:25 in that report he didn't have it
27:27 included in the report at the time so
27:29 now they're doing um you know kind of a
27:31 cover your butt kind of situation
27:33 because they know they put out incorrect
27:36 assessment at the beginning of the year
27:37 once you mentioned that there are you
27:40 know family ties between Al-Qaeda
27:42 leadership and Taliban leadership
27:46 including malar's family uh how you can
27:48 prove that then what kind of
27:49 relationship is
27:51 that yeah I mean there's a lot of
27:54 relationships between the families um so
27:56 if you just talk about Mula Omar's
28:00 family for example right so his daughter
28:03 is married to the son of Osama bin Laden
28:05 it was actually his first wife um his
28:08 second wife H's a second wife the um
28:10 wedding was very public which made a lot
28:13 of people think that was his first wife
28:16 um so there's a lot of unknowns like
28:18 people don't know he had a first wife
28:20 when the marriage happened um and then
28:23 another really interesting um
28:26 relationship is actually Mula Omar's son
28:30 Mula yakub who runs the Taliban military
28:33 um you know he is obviously as you know
28:36 now the relationship I told you he's the
28:38 brother-in-law of Hamza Bin Laden and
28:40 then he's married to one of the
28:42 daughters of Mula berer right so when
28:45 you start kind of linking all these
28:47 families together you see a lot of these
28:50 senior leaders have these intermarriages
28:53 and then the hakan are intermarried um
28:55 among a lot of the senior um alqaeda
28:58 families too um to include the bin Laden
29:00 so yeah for 20 years they've been
29:03 intermarrying to where now if you think
29:06 about it Hamza Bin Laden can live in the
29:09 family compound of a hakani right
29:11 because they're blood related now so
29:14 it's very different than you know in
29:16 2000 do you have any information where
29:20 is Hamza Ben Laden and if he is active for
29:22 for
29:25 Al-Qaeda yeah I mean you know I I talked
29:27 about Hamza been Laden being in Kandahar
29:30 you know I'm not going to kind of keep
29:32 discussing his location you know if he
29:34 moves if he doesn't move um I don't
29:36 think he needs to know um what people
29:38 are tracking on him but he's very
29:39 involved in al-Qaeda he's leading
29:42 Al-Qaeda and he's actually involved in a
29:44 plot against the US homelands so yeah
29:46 he's very concerning and people need to
29:49 be focused on him you know the uh
29:52 killing of zawahiri uh former Al-Qaeda
29:55 leader in kabell raised a lot of
29:58 questions uh and also some you know
30:02 speculations uh about possible Taliban
30:06 some f factions of the Taliban um you
30:09 know helping the US with finding you
30:12 know giving uh away his location and
30:15 other other things do you think Taliban
30:19 helped CIA in finding his
30:22 location no I do think theis are the
30:23 ones that have been protecting him for
30:27 20 years um I think the CIA got lucky
30:28 and got information
30:31 um when um Dr Ziri made the decision to
30:35 move to Cobble too soon um and he you
30:37 know made a strategic error um you know
30:39 there was still plenty of people
30:41 obviously not supportive of the Taliban
30:43 at the time especially in the area he
30:46 moved into and I think he just moved at
30:48 the wrong time and I don't actually
30:51 think it was the hakan and I think even
30:54 as we see how they are still close right
30:58 zahir's family is still close to Sur
31:01 hakani right so the family also does not
31:05 think the Taliban gave him up
31:08 so you mean usama's Usama Bin Laden's
31:12 family sorry zaah you mean Za's family
31:15 doesn't think that he was uh given away
31:16 by the
31:19 Taliban yeah actually um I don't know if
31:21 a lot of people know but in February of
31:25 this year zari's brother Muhammad died
31:27 he was involved in our Benghazi attacks
31:29 like in planning them them um and he was
31:31 in custody in Egypt well they held this
31:35 ceremony for him in Kandahar and zahir's
31:37 family came in you know a lot of senior
31:39 terrorists came in and yeah there was no
31:43 animosity between um zahir's Family
31:46 Al-Qaeda um any member of the Taliban or
31:48 the hakes um you know when that that
31:50 memorial went down so I think that's
31:53 more um people making conspiracies than
31:57 being real life okay you know recently
31:58 the tur ish
32:03 government um they stopped allowing uh
32:06 people with Afghanistan um diplomatic
32:09 passports coming into turkey uh without
32:13 the Visa and some people told us that it
32:17 is related to Taliban issuing passports
32:21 to some terrorists including members of
32:24 al-Qaeda is that true do you know
32:25 anything about
32:28 that it's likely the reason I think
32:30 they're not doing it right though um you
32:33 know the Taliban has issued over 6,000
32:36 passports um to Terrace now the
32:39 Diplomatic passports are issued to
32:41 basically the senior leadership of the
32:43 Taliban many of them are terrorists but
32:46 if you want to stop like I don't know an
32:49 Egyptian with it or an Iraqi or a
32:52 Jordanian or a Kuwaiti whomever they're
32:53 not being issued the Diplomatic
32:55 passports they're just being issued the
32:58 regular passports any Afghan National
33:00 would get so I think turkeyy is trying
33:02 to act like they're solving a problem
33:04 but they're not going to get any of the
33:06 foreign terrorists issue the passports
33:09 with that plan but I do think it sounds
33:12 like they're attempting to deal with it 6,000
33:13 6,000
33:15 passports how do you know
33:18 that well I've heard the number from
33:22 numerous people um so um numerous people
33:26 ACC okay no numerous people in Media or
33:30 intelligence or CIA or what do you mean
33:32 how you can prove it yeah I mean well
33:35 one of the issues is as you can imagine
33:37 a lot of my libyans are leaving Libya
33:39 and they're going to Afghanistan and
33:41 also getting these passports um and one
33:43 of the individuals making the passports
33:46 is actually a Libyan his name is Abdul
33:48 aim Ali Musa Ben Ali I've been working
33:53 on him for over a decade um very heavily
33:56 so um yeah I have a lot of information
33:58 of him making these pass reports or
34:00 being directing them to be made um
34:02 personally so I have it from a lot of
34:05 different sourcing um in North Africa um
34:09 in Afghanistan Etc where is he located
34:11 in Afghanistan or
34:14 Libya yeah he's located in Afghanistan
34:18 and he um gets paid by the ministry of
34:21 interior um in Afghanistan to make
34:24 passports for these foreign
34:27 Nationals yeah he does a lot of things
34:30 one of his roles is to make sure like
34:33 Al-Qaeda has these passports but he's
34:35 actually involved in the operational
34:37 planning for Al-Qaeda attacks in the
34:40 Middle East he does that with scial auto
34:42 so he's not just like the passport guy
34:45 he's an operational Commander as well so
34:49 how these passports are um used so
34:52 far well the interesting thing is um
34:54 because they I have seen some of these
34:56 passports and I have seen foreigners
34:58 that I know um and the passport is an
35:00 Afghan person and Afghan name on it but
35:03 they photos on it the interesting part
35:05 is from what I've been told um a number
35:09 of them have used them to come to the US
35:12 in some capacity the majority of them
35:15 either tried to go to Iran or turkey and
35:17 then they
35:20 um traveled to somewhere like Brazil Etc
35:22 and they came up you know through Latin
35:24 America um in a trying to cross our
35:28 border the interesting part is in the us
35:30 um we're very sympathetic to Afghans
35:32 even at the southern border right
35:34 because a lot of people worked in
35:36 Afghanistan over the years they've been
35:38 impacted by the the failed withdrawal
35:41 right so it actually is better to come
35:44 to our border even illegally and be an
35:47 Afghan right so um they might drop the
35:49 passports at the border and come in and
35:51 be someone else when they're in country
35:53 right but it is a big problem um I don't
35:55 know what all they're doing it for one
35:58 is just to live in Afghan istan so they
36:01 have now Afghan identities and they're
36:03 getting paid like welfare right so they
36:06 get money to support their families by
36:09 the Taliban government in Afghanistan
36:12 under their now fake Afghan names um and
36:14 it's just a wellfare terror system
36:16 that's been created so you're saying
36:19 that they're using Afghanistan passport
36:22 to come to the southern borders of uh
36:25 United States to come to the United
36:28 States and you know do some Terror
36:31 activities or just seek
36:34 Asylum I think obviously the terrorists
36:37 who got the Afghan passports is to seek
36:39 I mean to commit attacks I do think
36:41 there are people who were in bad
36:44 situations right that had to get um
36:45 passports on the black market just to
36:48 get out of Afghanistan so definitely not
36:50 everybody with an Afghan passport is
36:52 here to commit terrorist attacks but
36:55 when a foreigner so if you're like a um
36:58 Egyptian and you have an afghan passport
37:01 yeah um you're not here to commit you
37:03 know to be a refugee you're here to um
37:07 commit damage so you're saying that the
37:10 US authorities have noticed this kind of
37:14 cases and have they arrested anyone
37:19 or have do they have anything under
37:20 investigation yeah well the really
37:23 interesting thing is the US is finding a
37:26 lot of these passports like thrown away
37:28 alongside of the order so they've been
37:33 discarded um the other problem is is
37:35 some are using these identities so like
37:38 like let's say um you come in and your
37:41 name now is U Muhammad Khan and you have
37:44 a new birthday and it's Afghan passport
37:46 right and maybe you're a Pakistani you
37:49 now go into the system as Muhammad Khan
37:52 with this date of birth um from
37:55 Afghanistan so the US can't vet you
37:57 against Pakistani data because they
37:59 don't have any clue you're a Pakistani
38:01 right like they're not able to
38:04 background check you appropriately so I
38:05 don't think they've come up with a
38:09 solution to this problem um and it's
38:11 it's it's a major issue right we right
38:15 now have reportedly 50 Isis members in
38:18 the United States that they can't locate
38:19 and you think they have come from
38:21 Afghanistan or other
38:24 places it could be a number of places
38:26 Isis has moved here from Afghanistan
38:28 they've actually moved here from India
38:30 um you know there could have been some
38:32 who moved from you know Iraq and Syria
38:34 North Africa you know Isis is you know
38:36 and then turkey is the huge Transit
38:39 point for Isis so they could be a number
38:41 of nationalities and um left from a
38:42 number of
38:47 locations okay um so what kind of
38:51 threats you think one can be expect from
38:54 uh you know an Afghanistan under the
38:58 control of um Taliban or uh you know
39:03 these concerns can be uh you know
39:08 labeled as uh partisan politics uh also
39:11 you know and also some some people who
39:14 are naysayers and cannot accept the new
39:17 reality which is Taliban controlling
39:19 Afghanistan yeah I think there's
39:21 different rings of threats as you go out
39:24 right so I think if you start in
39:26 Afghanistan um besides the the ongoing
39:30 threat to the population um just the
39:33 closest emanation of Pakistan out right
39:35 I mean Afghanistan out so they can go to
39:37 Pakistan right um as we've seen this
39:39 increase um in their support to TTP
39:42 attacks but they also ascending Fighters
39:43 the other way they're sending fighters
39:47 to Iraq and um Syria um they're
39:49 basically getting ready for the US to
39:52 pull out of those locations so they can
39:54 kind do do the same thing they did in
39:57 Afghanistan right they want to repeat
40:00 Afghanistan in Syria and Afghanistan and
40:02 then Molly of all things so then you do
40:04 another ring out right and you start
40:08 talking about a Yemen Saudi Arabia Mali
40:10 and in those cases they become a
40:12 different threat they they're focused on
40:14 the embassies right they're like hey if
40:17 we attack us British whomever embassies
40:20 French we can push them out of these
40:24 locations right obviously we've had this
40:26 this ongoing even since Benghazi right
40:28 we got attacked at a cons in Benghazi we
40:29 left we never went back right the
40:31 terrorists saw that they've learned from
40:33 that and then the final ring when you go
40:36 out from the embassy threat is the
40:38 attack on you know the European Homeland
40:40 and the US Homeland which Al-Qaeda is
40:42 planning those attacks right Isis is
40:45 planning um similar attacks so yeah
40:48 there's a lot of ripples coming out of
40:51 Afghanistan um that they're going to
40:53 cause a lot of deaths unfortunately and
40:54 like you said people are putting their
40:56 head in the sand and almost waiting for
40:58 it to happen and in of being proactive against
40:59 against
41:03 it you know in recent years we see a
41:07 kind of a negative uh approach between
41:08 uh Pakistan and the
41:12 Taliban um especially on the issues of
41:17 related to TTP do you think uh this you
41:20 know negative developments are real uh
41:22 do you think given the fact that Taliban
41:24 and Pakistan have been especially isi
41:26 have been closed for for from the beginning
41:28 beginning
41:31 uh or you think it's just a
41:33 showoff yeah well I think you know a
41:36 long time back um Taliban and the
41:39 Pakistan's isai were in lock step right
41:42 um when white was like hummed G ran it
41:44 he then kind of got a little sideline
41:45 pushed out by his government and he
41:48 still ran it all on the side right and
41:51 then uh isi kind of restructured and as
41:53 you know director at s was like the main
41:57 body um supporting Taliban but then they
41:58 had a whole other directorate right
42:00 playing another game the counter
42:02 terrorism directorate That Was Then
42:06 capturing um senior Taliban in Pakistan
42:08 at the beest of America and that's where
42:10 the problem lies so now the terrorists
42:11 who are
42:15 leading um the the Taliban know of all
42:16 those arrests most of those arrests
42:18 haven't even been made public but they
42:21 know who was all arrested what happened
42:23 and they've made the assessment they
42:25 can't trust Pakistan not just because of
42:27 what happened over the last 15 years
42:30 with all the captures but they believe
42:32 it's Pakistan who can bring the us back
42:35 in and do operations against them and so
42:38 Pakistan now is a threat to them and
42:40 that's why they're leaning in more and
42:43 supporting TTP more right because they want
42:44 want
42:48 to make it expensive for Taliban to deal
42:52 with TTP to um weaken their defenses
42:55 right um to cost them money um and then
42:58 hopefully to basically take pieces of
43:02 the fata or kyum pakun walk Etc and make
43:04 it a part of
43:08 Afghanistan it's so you're expecting an
43:13 expansion of Taliban emirat into some uh
43:17 tribal areas of uh Pakistan is that
43:19 assessment even realistic given tal
43:23 Pakistan is a nuclear power
43:26 there I think it's realistic for them to
43:27 definitely get some
43:30 land and maybe large swasa land because
43:31 it's not like Pakistan's going to use
43:34 the nuclear weapons against Afghanistan
43:36 so the terrorist don't view the nuclear
43:38 weapons like the West does right
43:40 terorists don't even Factor them in when
43:42 they're planning right they're they're
43:45 focused on let's get the locals behind
43:48 us let's get a movement uh against
43:51 Pakistan behind us right let's get a
43:54 nationalist type of thing behind us um
43:55 and that's really what they're focused
43:57 on I mean they actually do have a fought
44:00 War plan they call it so they're very
44:01 focused and they're not concerned at all
44:05 about nuclear weapons and you think all
44:08 factions of the Taliban including hakan and
44:10 and
44:13 habah you know Powerhouse and Mal
44:18 brother and um M and others they are all
44:20 on the same page when it comes to
44:24 dealing with TTP or there are some you
44:27 know divides
44:29 I think there's there's divides but
44:32 they're small they're not as big as um
44:33 people think they all have different
44:37 focuses right so you know SJ hakani has
44:39 a million focuses and he's doing a lot
44:42 of things so he's not as far into this
44:45 fat War plan plus I think he's playing
44:47 the game right if something happens in
44:48 Afghanistan I want to be able to still
44:51 fall back to Pakistan right but if
44:52 you're talking about like
44:55 hula um Al-Qaeda Al-Qaeda Indo
44:57 subcontinent and then there's a
45:00 political group in Pakistan called juif
45:02 they're all in lock step and planning
45:05 together to do this kind of land grab in
45:08 Pakistan is a joint um effort and what
45:10 they're doing is they are going to
45:13 utilize TTP actually the talibans been
45:16 rotating units through TTP so when TTP
45:18 does attacks there's usually a couple
45:22 members of the Taliban in those attacks
45:25 um for for numerous reasons but one is
45:28 so when Pakistan says Afghans were
45:30 involved they think they're crazy right
45:33 and it's to get the population um
45:35 supportive of it because for many years
45:37 Pakistan lied I I lived in Pakistan
45:39 right there would be a suicide bombing
45:41 in lore and I'd go in and see him and
45:43 they're like it's an Afghan and then two
45:44 days later I'd see the person's head and
45:46 it was some you know Punjabi you know
45:49 who who grew up in in southern Punjab in
45:52 Pakistan so Taliban smart and they're
45:55 playing on these false negtive
45:56 narratives that have occurred over the
45:59 years they have a really great
46:02 strategy yeah but it's hard to believe
46:05 that Taliban would go against Pakistan
46:08 given you know over two decades um
46:10 American generals and you know uh
46:13 leaders politicians always said that
46:16 there is a very close tie between isi
46:20 and Taliban leadership especially hakani
46:24 Network so how one can expect hakan is
46:27 going against the pakistanis
46:29 yeah I mean the way I look at it is they
46:33 feel um Pakistan um sold them out right
46:36 remember there was a strike against
46:39 sadin sadin hakan's family killed his
46:41 wife and kids in Pakistan you have to
46:44 remember there's very negative feelings
46:48 for from the Taliban for what Pakistan
46:50 allowed the us to do and now the Taliban
46:52 is in a situation where they don't need
46:53 Pakistan nobody needs Pakistan that's
46:56 the problem so the Taliban have cutter
46:58 right they have US Dollars coming in
47:00 they have Chinese Investments dollars
47:02 coming in they have Goods Force dollars
47:05 coming in right they don't need Pakistan
47:08 ever again and I think that's the Future
47:13 Okay from Pakistan China Russia India
47:17 and Iran like four big players in the
47:20 region uh what do you think Taliban have
47:25 the closest uh relations and ties
47:29 now I think um like terrorist militant
47:34 operational alignment it's Iran I think
47:39 um India it's the you know let's give it
47:41 to Pakistan um but I don't think India
47:44 is putting the kind of money in that um
47:47 the US is doing and cter is doing and
47:50 China's doing um and Iran's doing China
47:52 is China they're just going to deal who
47:54 who with who's there they don't care if
47:55 they're into Power this year or next
47:57 year they're going to do their their
47:59 grab of um all the minerals they want to
48:00 get and then when a new government comes
48:02 in they'll really negotiate they don't
48:03 care they're used to dealing with these
48:05 type of governments all over Africa
48:07 there's coups all the time so it's China
48:10 it's just a mute point um and then
48:12 Russia's really interesting Russia
48:13 thinks they need to work with the
48:15 Taliban to deal with ISP right but they
48:18 don't realize the taliban's involved in
48:20 some of that so um I think Russia's just
48:22 going to get burnt just like the US has
48:23 gotten burnt on this um Taliban
48:26 relationship so Iran is the one to watch
48:27 that I think is going to be the most
48:29 concerning going forward and where
48:31 they'll have the most impact but uh
48:34 Donald Trump now running again for
48:37 president in the United States uh
48:39 mentioned at least twice the background
48:42 Airfield and how Chinese are controlling
48:45 them so he didn't mention Iran or Russia
48:48 or anything do you think if he comes to
48:51 power what kind of you know how you
48:55 assess this statement by Trump does it
48:58 show any signs of his uh willingness to
49:02 go back to Afghanistan or it's just a
49:05 you know narrative for for
49:08 elections yeah I think he was making the
49:10 point we shouldn't have given up bogram
49:12 look we did in another country which is
49:15 our rival China decided it was a
49:17 strategic point and they took it right
49:19 so I think he was making a point there
49:22 um I think a lot of American voters are
49:24 actually on the fence on the Afghanistan
49:26 issue because Trump's campaign has not
49:28 come out yet right and said what their
49:31 plan is or what their intent is or if
49:33 they'll end the Doha deal right so there
49:35 are a lot of questions and people are
49:37 making assumptions but until they show
49:40 us some sort of policy I think we're
49:43 just guessing um and people do really
49:45 feel you know during his administration
49:47 that at least you know our secretary of
49:49 state of time Mike Pompeo was played
49:52 right by muler berer um and we want to
49:54 ensure right he brings
49:58 in he wins really was he played or that
50:00 was the policy that was what United States
50:01 States
50:04 wanted well I think us wanted it but
50:06 they assumed it would be a Powers
50:09 sharing government they assumed tal they
50:11 were dreaming um but they assumed
50:12 Taliban would have a piece of the
50:14 government and someone else but
50:16 obviously that's a lie because they
50:18 would have them at the table right so I
50:22 think they thought it would just work
50:24 out and they actually put no plan in
50:26 place I mean it was a horrible policy
50:28 but part of the policy was influenced by
50:30 what the Taliban was telling them and
50:33 what you know Z was telling them right
50:37 so they were basing it off of Taliban
50:39 information not the information from
50:42 like Afghans you know who work in their
50:44 government and stuff like that okay my
50:50 last two questions first uh what are uh
50:53 the two or three you know policy options
50:57 for the next American president this
50:59 next American
51:02 Administration towards I
51:04 mean yeah I mean at least when you talk
51:07 to the community involved in this I mean
51:08 there's three different things at least
51:11 Americans care about right uh you know
51:13 obviously protecting our allies um you
51:15 know getting them to safety or getting
51:18 them released from Taliban prisons Etc
51:21 stopping the money going to the Taliban
51:23 because it's being proliferated to
51:25 multiple terrorist groups to include
51:28 Al-Qaeda and then desting the Taliban a
51:30 terrorist organization first to stop
51:32 their advancements but second to make
51:33 sure they don't receive any sort of
51:35 international recognition I mean
51:37 countries are being very soft on the
51:39 Taliban they're they're letting them
51:41 travel into their Nations like these are
51:43 terrorists right this is a threat to the
51:44 whole world so these are the policy
51:47 issues Americans care about now will our
51:49 policy makers step up and do the right
51:51 thing you know there's no guarantees
51:54 there yeah and the last question what
51:56 will happen if these policies are not
52:01 adopted by the us next uh
52:02 Administration yeah I think it'll even
52:04 happen before the end of the next
52:05 Administration there's going to be
52:08 attack on the US Homeland and then all
52:09 policies are going to change and and
52:11 it's going to affect everybody as you
52:13 can imagine it's going to probably stop
52:16 um the immigration of Afghans to America
52:18 um and it's going to start a whole
52:20 another branch of of this this war and
52:23 teror that nobody wants thank you so
52:28 much SAR Adams thank you Sammy thank you [Music]
52:31 [Music] [Applause]
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