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Can Narcissists Turn Their Narcissism Off And On? With Christian John

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Welcome everyone to the wizard of

radical self-respect. My name is Jared

Melo and today I got a very special

guest. Christian Van Linda is here. How

are you today Christian?

>> Doing well Jared. Thanks for having me.

>> It's a blast having you on. We've been

talking for it seems like a long time already.

already.

>> We have

hopefully there's more to talk about. Yeah,

Yeah,

>> I seems like I could talk to you for

hours and hours. So I'm sure we can go

on for more. But what I'm excited to

talk about with you is you're a little

more environmental focused as a as

opposed to say Dr. Serno emphasizes more

the genetic side. You are more of the

environmental side and I think that's

going to be very interesting for the

people who follow me to listen to.

>> Great. Yeah. Wonderful.

>> And one thing I heard you say was we

talk about okay what is everyone's

mentally injured as you call it not

mental illness you call it mental

injury. And if we're going to say that,

we should also be defining what health

is. And what do you mean when you say that?

that?

>> Right. Well, I mean, you know, we're not

talking about all of the so-called kind

of mental health disorders, but I think

when we think of trauma and the way a

lot of a lot of things can be reduced to

trauma, it's more of an injury than an

illness. And I think the language is

really important, right? That that that

you know, part of part of the issue I

have with the illness model is that

nobody wants to be sick. And and so the

way we would approach that is kind of

pushing these elements of self away when

I think a lot of the healing is in

radical acceptance and kind of pulling

them closer, examining them and and

moving through them, you know. And so

you asked how how we define health. I I

don't think we have. I think that so

much of the kind of mental health

landscape and the language around mental

health, you know, especially as written

in the DSM um is is is illness without

clearly defining health because health,

if we're being honest, is usually looked

at through the lens of productivity

within our economic system with, you

know, through factors that aren't really

about understanding human consciousness.

What what is a healthy normal mind, you

know, and who has one? I I I I don't

know. And so, um, it it it's not to

speak to people's experiences and and

and the trouble that these different

conditions might have in them in in

their kind of quality of life, but to

kind of understand that a lot of the

problems are are actually about the

structure of our culture and that we've

we've defined these things. I mean, I

sometimes think of like the mental

health landscape as like a maze with

nothing no way out of it. That that we

have so much information thrown at us,

but it but there's not a lot of clarity.

Like for instance, how you know if a

therapist is working with insurance,

they have to diagnose a client with

something. Okay, so if everybody that

sits down in front of a therapist gets a diagnosis,

diagnosis,

what are we really talking about? Right?

Like like like what what does that mean?

And again, this isn't this isn't me like

this is just asking questions about the

cultural landscape around mental health,

right? The language, the definitions, ho

how we're choosing to view it. And and I

really think when we look at it, we we

have a lot of of work to do in reframing

what to me is more about the experience

of human consciousness and the variety

of ways in which a human being might

experience themselves and experience

reality instead of this very rigid kind

of catalog of disorders that to me are

pathologizing human existence down to

the millisecond. And then I mean don't

get me started on how we're doing this

to children. Um, I I I just don't think

like does it help if you're struggling

to go get like diagnosed with some sort

of illness? I I I I mean I remember in

the '9s, you know, I'm kind of old when

the illness model was first taking hold

and it was like it it it was this kind

of profound thing. Well, no, this is an

illness. This is a real thing. And

nobody's saying it's not real, right?

that we have reality, right, that we

experience and then we have reality that

we talk about. You know, I always kind

of say like language was the first

technology to create an alternate

reality that we experience reality, but

once we start talking about it, they're

linguistic choices as to how we're

describing it. And so, I guess, you

know, this was a long way of saying, do

we have the language right? Right. Do do

we have the language of illness and

health? Right. And if we do, what what's

healthy? Is it not feeling? Is it is it

being a narcissist? I mean, I I I

honestly look at like what our society

rewards, right? And I I I question like,

you know, have we pathized feelings

basically, you know, like like is it

wrong to have,

you know, complicated thoughts about the

world that's going on around us? Complic

I I just to me it's like that Judo

Christian Murdy quote. It's no measure

of health to be well adjusted to a

profoundly sick society. I believe that

to be true. What does that actually

mean? You know, and and I don't think

there are I I don't think there are

answers. I don't think, you know, much

like I don't think the mental health

care industrial complex really has

answers as to like a lot of this stuff

either that their their treatment plans

rooted in profit motive. Not not kind of like,

like,

you know, like the old chemical

imbalance thing. Okay. Well, what

chemical, you know, bring it into

balance and we should be done. But we

all know it doesn't work that way. So,

>> I mean, if you had to define health, how

do you think you would define it?

>> I think health it good mental health is

rooted in the acceptance of our

feelings, the acceptance of what our

nervous system is is yielding at any

moment, right? That that it's not saying

I'm always going to be happy or I'm

never going to think about, you know,

things. It it it's about like I mean I I

like Carl Young, you know, that that

it's it's about being whole. It's about like

having the freedom and the courage to

feel whatever it is we're feeling in

real time in order to move through it.

That that it's not about any singular

self state or aiming for unicorns and

rainbows all the time. It's simply

accepting the dynamic nature of human

consciousness and how the environment

and other factors shape our responses to

the external world. Um, and and giving

ourselves the humanity to be human

basically to kind of experience it all

without too much judgment. And again, I

think that's why the illness model kind

of shoots people in the foot is that it

it it it creates a situation where we we

we think we need to be cured or we need

to be fixed. And I I just don't see that

as the path to good mental health. I I

really think acceptance, you know, the

acceptance that sometimes we're going to

be sad, you know, sometimes we're going

to be filled with anxiety. Now,

obviously, you know, when you look at

the DSM and the way these things are

diagnosed, a lot of what the threshold

is is, is it interrupting your ability

to make a living, right? And so, you

know, I'm not I'm not trying to like

judge or push people away from this

healing modality or that, but simply to

question the language and the cultural

choices we've made as to how we're

interpreting all these different self

states. You know, I I like the work of

Antonio Damasio. He's a neuroscientist,

I believe, at USC or UCLA,

you know, and there's a book called

Life, Feelings in the Making of Culture,

where our feelings should literally be

driving cultural changes, right? When

when when we would look at like our

culture and and we would look at

something like depression or some of

these ubiquitous definitions of of of

things that are that are kind of

plaguing us. A smart culture would say,

what what are we doing that's yielding

all of this depression? How can we

adjust the way that we're living? Our

culture says you feel too much, you

can't work, here's a pill, here's

therapy, you know, get back to work,

right? That that it's all centered around

around

keeping us as good little cogs in the

money-making machine, which might be a

bit little reductive, but I think what's

missing is the time to heal ourselves

organically. What's missing is the time

to kind of go inward or or or be offered

a life that doesn't seem so inauthentic,

you know, that doesn't seem like we're

just trapped in this kind of repetitive,

you know, get up, go to work, you know,

get drunk, whatever, you know, and and

it's just,

you know, again, it it's more about it's

not questioning the reality that people

are suffering. I never want people to

think I'm I'm I'm seeing and making some

sort of judgment on the actual

experience, but rather the the the you

know, if if if reality is the territory

and language is the map, I'm questioning

the map we have of of this stuff. I'm

questioning the language with which

we've chosen what are its roots? You

know, if we look at the roots of

American psychology and all of this

stuff, it's it's pretty firmly rooted in

social control and reinforcing

patriarchal standards of normal, you

know, and I I just what is normal? I

mean, I I haven't read the myth of

normal, but I know that that's what he

talks about, mate, of this idea that

like what is a normal mind? You know, to

me, it's rooted in cultural expectations

and cultural norms. um not not in a

desire to yield the highest quality of

internal life for the most amount of people.

people.

>> And that's a good point you made too.

It's like when does society when do they

stop to reflect and think well if all of

these people have a mental illness or as

you would say mental injury or a mood

disorder, when does that reflect upon

the society that maybe there's an issue

a broader issue going on than just the individual?

individual?

>> Right. Right. Well, that that's kind of

like why I think we opt for the illness

model over the trauma model because the

illness model says it's you, right? It

it indictes the individual. The trauma

model would will say it it's the broader

context in which we're existing that

something is traumatizing us, right?

Something is something is causing all of

this. It's not just happening

organically, right? It's I mean of

course there are epigenetic based you

know inheritance traits that that would

lead these things to kind of exist

within family structures but ultimately

they enter the genealogy at some point

through experience. I would think you

know that that it's never either or it's

it's it's how and why and how are these

things working in tandem. Um you know

talking about the genetics I always

think the genetics kind of are the menu

and then the environment cooks the meal

with whatever's on the menu. whatever

whatever whatever ingredients are there,

right? Like setting the kind of floor

and ceiling and that we're asking the

wrong question when we ask nature or

nurture. It it it's how are those things

intertwining? you know, how how how are they

they

you I I I think we are so fixed in the

way that we're living right now as human

beings, especially here in the United

States, that to kind of actually

comprehend what sort of societal changes

could be made to improve people's mental

health almost seems impossible. You

know, I mean, it it just doesn't seem

like it's in our wheelhouse to to, you

know, deploy culture-wide empathy in

that way. And actually, you know, I

don't know if I said this on our

podcast, but it's it's it's like say

there there's a bunch of kids and

they're just showing up in the ER and

they've all got broken arms, right? And

and so there's this this cast business

that's making tons and tons of money.

And so they don't they don't ask like

what's going on to break all these kids'

arms. They just want to treat the broken

arm, right? Because it's making money.

when simply going outside, you'd see

there's some guy hitting him in the arm

with a baseball bat, you know, and we're

just going, "Oh, you know, here's a

cast, here's a cast, here's a cast,"

without ever adapting the way we're

living. And and so, um, it

humanity has changed so much. You know,

I I I this is kind of a tangent, but

like I think of the story of the Buddha,

right, of of of coming at a time where

humans had started to live in cities and

and and he found peace through sitting,

right, and and through watching his

nervous system and bringing it into a

state of calm because the needs of

humanity had changed. We were no longer

living out in the wild, you know, where

where the stressors and the anxiety was

coming from actual real physical

external threats. we're now having to

manage our internal mind, right? That

and it's it's it's a process that that,

you know, is is over lifetimes. You

know, it's a it's a human pro process,

not not just an individual life. And I I

I just think, you know, again, I'm kind

of babbling, but it it it's really about

our culture

and awareness and integrating some of

this new awareness into the way we live.

you know, not simply saying this is the

way it is and and you're broken or

you're mentally ill, but understanding

the the these things that are happening

on large scales are happening for

reasons, for environmental reasons,

>> right? I think one of the things I like

about you is you ask a lot of good

questions because better questions will

yield better results. And

>> one of the things I've heard you say

also about what you just said reminded

me of this. You had said to be normal in

this day and age may be considered

sociopathic. What did you mean when you

said that?

>> Well, we're criminalizing feelings in a

lot of ways, right? And and we live in a

hyperindividualist society, you know,

driven by kind of culturally

narcissistic standards like American

exceptionalism. Like, you know, there

there there are kind of I think of

narcissism as the tyranny of perspective

as as as the belief that there's just

this one perspective and everybody has

to live in it. And so I think, you know,

take take like what it exists, you know,

what it takes to exist in corporate

America. There's a reason narcissists

like own corporate structures because

it's like a it's like a masking contest

and a backstabbing contest and you know

and everybody's out here competing with

one another. And I think what it does is

it it it it it

tears us away from each other. You know

that that everybody's in this rat race

where if you stop and help your buddy

who's fallen, you fall too, right? You

get left behind, too. And and again,

it's I I don't I don't I don't want this

construed as the reductive kind of w

capitalism thing, but like it it it's to

me it's about empathy and not seeing

life as a competition so much, right?

And and and not seeing life as a vehicle

of consumption, but seeing life as a

vehicle of connection. And and I think

the way that we live like

disconnects us not just from like other

people but from ourselves, right? That

that that like um

ultimately the the the narcissist is

further away from themselves than they

are from other people, right? It's this

kind of posture of strength masking

complete emptiness. And I just see that

all over in our culture. I I I think it

we give a lot of lip service to the

right values, but you know what does

Wuang say? Cash rules everything around

us. That that's the truth um of of it.

when you when you kind of look through

the veneer of of of the rhetoric, the

reality is,

you know, um it's not pretty, you know,

and I I don't I don't really like saying

this, but I I I just I think if we're

being honest,

you know, as these kind of technological

advances get more and more godlike and

and and and you know, alter what it

means to be human, we need more empathy

as humans. We we don't need more

intelligence right now. our

intelligence. I mean, if AI ends up

destroying us, was the prefrontal cortex

a fatal like evolutionary development?

You know, uh but but to your point about

questions, I mean, all we can do is ask

questions. Like all of these are

theories of mind, you know, there

there's no I mean, get get 10 kind of

psychology PhDs in a room. They don't

agree on anything, you know? And so it

it's to me like

the best questions lead to good answers

and then those answers lead to more

questions. And it's this never ending

like like I don't think there's a point

of of all knowing that that all we can

do is is is keep moving the ball forward

through asking questions having the

flexibility to accept multiple

perspectives understanding you know like

Dr. Soreno I really like I I I sometimes

get a little triggered by him almost you

know but in in in a really good way

where it makes me think I mean as the

child of a narcissist my father's also a

yoga and meditation teacher since the

60s who was a follower of this guy Swami

Rama who's a really bad man but it was

it was all about human consciousness and

so I was brought up with my mother going

to Catholic school and her telling me

I'm depressed and like putting me into

therapy and all these things and my dad

with a swami talking more about

conditioning, right? And saying, "Well,

he's upset." He couldn't bring himself

to say he's upset and sad cuz his

parents are [ __ ] insane. But, you

know, it would be like, "Well, his

girlfriend broke up with him or like,

you know, and so I had these kind of

dual spiritual traditions, dual

applications of my mental health where,

you know, like narcissistic parents

always interpret the dysfunction as

disobedience." And so, the dysfunction

they were creating was then framed as

disobedience. I'm sent to therapy. I'm

introduced to all of these different

theories of consciousness from the swami

and all this stuff and like

it took me almost to 40 to to integrate

all of it to make sense of all of it and

and I think ultimately

it's not either or ever. It's always

like a combination of all of these

things. You know, we were talking

earlier and I was saying how much I love

paracelis, the idea that everything can

be poison or medicine based on context

or dosage and how that that that kind of

pulls us out of a more dualistic

understanding of the world around us and

and doesn't ask is it good or bad, but

asks how and why can it be good and how

and why can it be bad and I think about

that as it relates to mental health

where again like you know these

questions I'm asking aren't telling

anybody to abandon therapy or abandon

pharmaceuticals or do anything other

than to question

the reality we're living in. And

whatever works works for you. Like we

have all these different tools in our

toolbox. So I I always because I've been

doing this long enough that I know

people can kind of misinterpreted a

little and and think I'm telling them to

do this. I'm I'm not. I'm simply saying

like these are cultural interpretations

of consciousness, right? That that we

have defined through a medical lens that

I'm not so sure is medical because what

what we're talking about is human

consciousness. What we're talking about

is the mind which cannot be observed by

anybody but the individual. The only

consciousness I can know is my own,

right? Like we can't observe what's

going on internally with other people.

We can look at external behavioral

clues. We we we can like trust that

they're able to articulate it, but

ultimately the only consciousness we can

know is our own. And I think that poses

a problem for the commodification of

mental health treatment, right? that

that that they need something

quantifiable, which is why the DSM

exists, to quantify mental health

disorders, not to help the patient, but

to help the insurance company deny

payment probably. You know, I mean,

>> and you have an interesting story in the

fact that you grew up with a a

spiritually narcissistic sociopathic father.

father.

>> What was that experience like for you?

>> Well, I had a I had a therapist one time

describe Swami Rama's crew as a hive of

spiritual narcissists. Um, Swami was

very clearly I mean at one point accused

of being a psychopath because there was

all these you know allegations of sexual

misconduct um that followed him around

to the point he left the country instead

of paying a judgment you know for me

growing up in Wisconsin with this yoga

teacher dad um it was very strange I

think I didn't realize you know they he

was first called a narcissist by one of

my therapists in 2024 but

you So, we always chocked it up to like,

oh, he's this weird meditation yoga guy.

There weren't other dads like that in

the 80s and 90s. He owned this really

large or was a co-owner of this really

large new age record label. And so, like his

his

his kind of I would call it apathy. Um,

to me seemed like, okay, this is a guy

that's like happiest sitting in a room

by himself meditating, you know, like

like so it was always very confusing.

Um, you know, because ultimately all of

that was just a mask of his. Like I

always joke like he's got no

self-awareness, so he's really just

winning the sitting contest. I think a

lot of narcissists and spiritual

narcissists hide in the new age

community because it's like they they

can cultivate these delusions of

grandeur that nobody can can fact check,

right? Like nobody knows what's going on

when you're meditating. You know, that

that's a personal thing. Um, but it was

really confusing. I mean, and you know,

my mother after they got divorced when I

was about seven, then married a banker,

you know, and so it went from like being

this like yoga kid to like, why aren't

you like a waspy son of a banker? And it

it fractured my personality, right? And

a lot of my mental health work to get to

where I am to survive was to actually

integrate those two parts of me to

recognize that like I'm not one or the

other. You know, it's funny because like

a lot of my studies in in in college,

you know, I did a lot of comparative

religious studies. I did a lot of

psychological studies. Ultimately, I

have a degree in kind of cultural

studies, but so much of it was me trying

to make sense of of this, you know,

almost schizophrenic upbringing where I

I I don't think I I I consider it

spiritual abuse to give a kid the first

spiritual template of yoga of a swami

and then send me to Catholic school from

kindergarten to 8th grade. Like I try to

think of my little self in like religion

classes and and how many questions I had

related to the other form of

spirituality that I had that I couldn't

ask. You know, I think I engaged with

with the Catholicism very differently,

you know, and I think more organically.

I mean, I remember looking around and

going, none of these people live like

Jesus, you know, like like and I, you

know, I mean, looking back, it's it's

it's really interesting, but I I I

really think it it was dangerous in a

certain way. Like it it was it you know,

as a child, I was very confused. I think

it it lended itself to me being kind of

a chameleon, you know, where it's like um

it it it just it just was a really

complex mind that I was given because of

all this stuff, you know, like like

meditating. Like my dad is a sociopath.

He never taught us to meditate or taught

us yoga, but my earliest memories are of

him sitting there meditating and

wondering from the age of like four,

what the [ __ ] is meditation? you know,

like what what's he actually doing?

Who's this Swami guy? What's yoga?

What's consciousness? You know, and then

going to Catholic school and and and it's

it's

>> that's a good point there too, why he

didn't teach you when that's what he

does with everyone else, but yet he

doesn't teach his own children about it.

>> Well, he didn't. He was like a surfer

and a wind surfer. He didn't teach us

that. He didn't want me working at the

record label. I I think some

narcissistic dads like are repulsed by

their male children. They they see a

rival instead of a a collaborator,

right? in that like um I I think I mean

before my parents got divorced he

basically moved us out of the city past

the suburbs so he could kind of womanize

down here you know my mother would say

she would meet people and go I didn't

know he had a wife and kids you know and

so I think he kept us away from those

things because just like for his swami

it was about things that were not not

what they were teaching it was about

women basically you know which um

>> also not much supply in teaching his own children.

children.

>> Well, that that's actually what I used

to that that's precisely what I used to

say was that there was no value. It's

funny you say that like he want the

narcissist wants to be perceived as the

thing. They don't want to be the thing,

right? So, there would be no value

sitting quietly in a room with simply

his son and his daughter teaching us

meditation because nobody's observing

him. He's getting Exactly. he's getting

no supply. Um, but it it's that's been

like one of the hardest elements of

recovering from narcissistic parents.

Um, is this

this feeling that I I I don't deserve

anything, right? If if I don't deserve

like the same interest as my dad. I

don't deserve to work for my dad. Why

should I work for any, you know? And and

really cultivating selfworth in spite of

this kind of like profound neglect, you

know? I mean, I think of my own anxiety

problems and my own kind of mental

health issues and how what would have

they have been like if he taught me to

meditate at the age of five and started

a meditation practice, you know, like

>> it's it's almost like this tantalizing

what if, but

>> you know, we get what we get and and I

think um with him and with the swami,

you know, the lesson for me is that

there are no such thing as gurus. There

there are men and women that might be

able to pass down some wisdom to us but

ultimately they are fallible men and

women. You know it's funny the Swami had

so many great sayings but it was all

empty. He would say you know the the the

guru is like a boat and you just use

that boat to get from one side of the

river to the other but you leave the

boat in the river right he would say be

the architect of your life as he's

telling people to get married get

divorced start this business start that

business. Um and you begin to see that like

the there there the the you know this is

everybody says it but the guru is

within. If there is a guru their job is

to lead us to ourselves right not not to

not to be woripped but it it's it's been

a really like

you know making sense of all that was

really hard you know I just listened to

a podcast actually about Swami and the

kind of case against Swami Rama and how

many people he heard. I was at a coffee

shop here and I met his illegitimate

grandson a couple years ago. I was just

talking to somebody about it and he's

like, "Oh, yeah." You know, and he

supposedly had no children, which is a

big lie. Um,

>> not good.

>> No, but I mean, you know, you you learn

the hard way, I think, when you're

raised by a narcissist about um trusting

people, you know, and that ultimately so

much of our challenge is to learn to

trust ourselves. and and and and you

know, I think when I think about helping

people with narcissistic abuse, it

usually goes back to narcissistic

parents where the entire problem with

having a narcissistic parent or I mean

all of life is a problem, but it it it

it forces us to deal with these very

complicated, disordered personalities in

childhood long before we have the

psychological abilities to do so. But we

cultivate survival tactics mainly like

trying to chase the narcissist, right?

Instead of setting boundaries and

leaving. But then when we become adult,

we constantly find ourselves in

relationships with them because we still

have that pattern that instead of saying

like, "Oh, this is [ __ ] up. I'm going

to set a boundary and leave." We try to

chase and chase and fix and fix and and

and and give ourselves away in an

attempt to kind of like connect to the

unconnectable. H I mean and people chase

because a narcissistic parent makes you

earn their love, affection and attention

and that becomes the child's normal.

>> It's all transactional, right? The child

is valued only for what they do and what

they present to the world and their

internal reality is completely

suppressed. It's like a whack-a-ole.

Anytime your authentic feelings, my my

dad would literally say to me, "Come

back to me when you're not angry." till

I was 40, you know, to the point where I

had to rage on him and all sorts of

really bad things happened cuz I was

learning to express my rage. He wouldn't

take it. So, I started writing really

angry emails um that resulted in a

restraining order, you know, all of

these things. But it was about 40 years

of anger that had to come out, you know,

and I I would do it very differently had

I do it again. But I also understood

that that rage that I felt towards him

had been directed at myself for my whole

life and manifesting in in in self harm

in, you know, depression, which a lot of

times I consider anger turned inward.

And that it was only through the proper

placement of that rage, you know, into

its right spot that I was able to free

myself from it. But it's really ugly. I

mean, it, you know, it's stuff that

happened that I'm certainly not proud

of. Um,

but I think it speaks to to to the

ugliness of healing in a certain way

that like we think of healing as, you

know, this kind of pretty thing, but

it's usually much much much different

than what we think, you know, and um

I I

it's funny in in saying all of this, I

still miss my dad, you know, people may

find that weird, but it's like I I when

I look at myself, I see him. When I hear

myself, I hear him. A lot of who I am

was trying to know him, you know, trying

to trying to kind of emulate him, but

not really understanding how much of

what I knew of him was a mask, that it

wasn't it wasn't real, you know, that

that like it it was

it was just him presenting to the world

things that he really wasn't. And, you

know, I wish that were untrue. I mean, I

I I still, you know, I think all of us

have a hard time truly truly letting go

of the idea of our parents, right? When

when you're dealing with a narcissistic

parent, there's always the idea that we

formed of them versus the reality of

them. And like it's really hard to let

go of this idea, you know, of what

should have been of of of what what it

appears to be. Um,

but you know that's always

>> all kids are going to chase their like

mother and father's approval, right?

They're going to try to connect with

them, relate with them. It just doesn't

normally work. And I think

>> with religious and spiritual narcissists

in particular,

>> they present a whole new set of problems

because they're using this religious or

spiritual spiritual vehicle

>> for nintend,

right? They're using it to control

others. are using it to get their supply

to boost their image

>> and it certainly complicates things.

>> Well, I think for me it really helped in

the scapegoating process of me, right?

Because I was a wild kid. Like I had a

lot of anger. I had a lot of drug

problems. I looked very much like a

spoiled brat.

>> Um, and they would look at my dad, this

yoga meditation guy. He owns record

labels. Well, anybody, you know, he's

probably the he should have been an

amazing [ __ ] dad, right? Like I mean

when you look at the surface details

they would think well he he could he he

could nurture a creative kid or he could

you you know here here's this kid who's

had all these opportunities but all the

opportunities were were were were like

illusions right like like when I went to

college uh I didn't know I was autistic.

I didn't know I was traumatized. My

house had burned down. I'd lost

everything I owned. I had been shuffled

back and forth the last two years of

high school. And I I couldn't fill out

any applications. My mother filled them

out, forced me to college, you know, I

ended up dropping out after about three

years. And so people would look at look

at this kid squandering an opportunity.

I I I what like I I needed somebody in

my emotional life helping me through the

trauma because I was like 18 going on

12, you know, and and so like from the

outside world, here's this [ __ ] kid

partying all the time. Um but in reality

the the I didn't have anybody at any

point in my life in the emotional

reality of what was happening right in

the kind of reality that like I'd been

dealing with real trauma um since at

least the age of seven. I mean I had a

broken arm at 6 months. The story in my

family was I was left alone on a bed and

my sister was jumping on the bed and she

bounced me off the bed and I broke my

arm. But like they never tell me where

my parents were. And this this happens

to a lot of us children of narcissists

that there are these occurrences that

happen in life and I know you have the

bullet point of the unreliable narrator.

This is what I mean is that we can't

trust any of their answers. Like like

when I asked what happened and they say,

you know, your sister bounced you off. I

wasn't asking what my sister was doing.

I was asking where my parents were, you

know? And then we hear, "Oh, your dad at

some point wasn't able to babysit cuz he

would just meditate." So, was my dad

meditate? Who knows? There's there's no

answer, right? And that like my dad's

never even acknowledged it. My mother's

story changes, you know? And again, this

isn't like w poor me, but like that I'm

scared of heights. Is that why you know

talking about environmental things like

what does that do to a small child to

sit with a broken arm for a couple hours

you know like I mean it's the 70s so

like I'm sure the doctor was like you

know give him some whiskey and blow some

cigarette smoke in his face or something

you know but like my mother would

dismiss it you know my whole life but

like there's all these different

incidents like that um that I I I can't

believe was good for my nervous system

you know.

>> No I wouldn't think so. I mean, what do

you think is the core of these kinds of

dysfunctional family systems?

>> Avoidance. Um, you know, I mean, I mean,

I think the core of narcissism, right,

if you know, and I think is the the the

pathological inability to see outside of

one perspective and a family should be a

shared perspective, right? like like you

know like going through a divorce right

at the age of seven

should have been a communal experience

right there there should have been space

made for the emotional psychological

complexity that would emerge in the

children but it was all about the adults

like eventually I got sent to therapy by

myself because I was angry but it was

all like we don't know where these

emotional problems are coming from it's

like really you don't know

I mean it was like you know I started

wetting the bed and my mother beat me

for wetting the bed you know and and

it's like

all of it it from my perspective even

now as an adult is very easily explained

right well I was actually traumatized

right that this is real trauma um but

nobody wants to I mean my dad literally

gave me the his move was like giving

books like he gave me the body keeps the

score and then denies that like write it

in his book club or something and then

denies that trauma is part of my story.

But that that's the narcissist's

subconscious like admission of

something, right? But then can't

consciously acknowledge like, oh yes, I

I've been like the the the kind of

missing variable in the story is is the

emotional reality of the children. You

know, my sister on the other hand like

went more in the hyperfunctionality

route. you know, she she was like

older when when it all fell apart. And

so by like 16, she was living in France

with AFS, you know, where I was left as

this kind of like play thing for my

mother's emotional pro. It's it's just

it's it it all becomes a mess. And the

scapegoat child, they call it the

identified patient. I I I call it

actually the identified feeler, you

know, that that like the child that is

deemed the scapegoat has to feel all of

the repressed emotions that the family

unit I it it's like it's like a toilet

basically. The child becomes just a

receptacle for all the [ __ ] that they

can't feel consciously. Um and it almost

killed me. I mean, I I I I you know, I

mean, the scapegoat thing,

um, on the one hand, if you're

scapegoed, it's usually because you're

you're capable of still seeing the

truth. You're seeing outside of the

family system, but it's it it can be such

such

the family system basically wants you

sick or dead, you know? I mean, it's

really it's it's really sick. And so, I

you know, I think in talking about this

Oh, there's my cat. um in talking about

this stuff,

you know, it really it really makes it

real. I mean, a lot of my start on

social media came at a time where I was

telling my story of being scapegoed and

and it was cathartic to hear myself to

see myself speaking from my perspective,

like speaking about what it felt like

for me, like speaking about like

>> I was a kid, right? I wasn't the one

driving all of this dysfunction. I was

the receptacle for it.

Right. And what was your mother's

dynamic like with your father?

>> You know, I don't really have many

memories um of them together. Like I

don't have a single memory of them

having a healthy conversation. Um

but she claims it wasn't that bad. He

was just like going to Europe with, you

know, he he was just with other women a

lot, you know. And so my mother is um

very emotional, right? very very

emotionally unstable and my father is no

emotions and it it was like being

trapped between these two different kind

of ways of of dysfunction where they

didn't communicate and so all of that

energy like my dad basically just

stopped talking to her once he left and

so all of that energy you know like she

would scream like your dad doesn't love

us your dad doesn't give us money um and

then I'd go ask my dad for something and

he'd say that's why I give your mom

money and so this little kid is like

looking up at this dysfunction and and

the only thing I can kind of interpret

is well they seem to have money but

nobody wants to actually take care of

their children and it became this like

like the child becomes the battlefield

right in the worst case scenarios and so

I think my mother got trapped in the

miscalculation that the problem was my

dad didn't parent us enough but he's not

capable we spent any time with him at

all that that he wasn't we'd go on

Saturdays and it'd be like we'd go watch

movies we'd go to Sam's Club we'd go

watch him get suits But there wasn't

like there there wasn't parenting going

on, right? And and so

um it was all very confusing. Like I

said, it it it's there's a reason like

the children of narcissists understand

narcissism is because we're we may not

know what we're looking at, but we're

experiencing it at all times. They don't

stop being narcissists. you know, they

they they they are pathologically

trapped um you know, in all of all of

the ways that they are in other

relationships with their children. I had

a self-aware narcissist one time tell me

he quote didn't do it to his kids when I

started pointing out how stupid that was

and how ridiculous he started making

videos about how he abused his children,

which I found to be ridiculous

considering this guy has millions of

followers, but you know, the internet's

a weird place.

>> I I know who you're referring to. You

won't mention any names unless you want

to. But

>> yeah, no, I I have I have no need to. I

mean, it was just eye opening, you know,

and what what what he was trying to

convey, I guess, is that they turn it on

and off. And not the real narcissistic

abuse. Maybe the surface level

behaviors, but they they don't turn

their narcissism on and off. They don't

like somehow see human beings as human

and and other times only as objects.

They always see human beings as objects.

And if you only see your child as an

object, that is child abuse. From the

minute they're born till the minute one

of them exp, you know, somebody's gone.

>> It's that operating system, right? If

you have that narcissistic operating

system, they are not turning that off or

on. It is always

>> it might be manifesting differently

because they people will point to like,

well, when they go out in the world,

they don't abuse everybody, but it's

it's situational. Every relationship to

them is transactional. So to somebody

they're just meeting, they're nice

because they're mapping the transaction.

They don't need anything from them. They

might be being nice to this person just

to piss off their other person. You know

that that if we're if we're judging it

based on that, we're missing the point

of that of of what narcissism is

basically. And and so they they the

pathological kind, they don't turn it on

and off. It's it's it it it's not

possible, right? Like and it really kind

of drives me nuts when people look at

that and say, "Well, he didn't do it to

this person." But it's it's about the

nature of the relationship they're in,

right? It's it's not like they're they

they are operating on their own needs at

all times and they need different things

out of different people, right? And and

it's um but I think you know ultimately

the healing is about you know we were

talking about this earlier. It's like we

fall victim to making all of all all of

the healing about understanding the

narcissist when ultimately what we have

to understand is ourselves, right? And

maybe we understand ourselves,

especially when it's our parents through

the experiences that have shaped us. But

I always say the most important pivot in

in narcissistic abuse recovery is when

we pivot from what was done to us to

what it means for us, right? To what

what does it mean for us? How has it

shaped us? You know, how how can we

learn to see ourselves clearly, to love

ourselves, to accept ourselves,

especially in our faults, right? that

that it's it's not really about becoming

an expert on narcissism, even though

that's a fascinating topic, you know.

>> Right. Right. I mean, what is the

antidote to narcissism in your opinion?

>> Authenticity and vulnerability.

A narcissist can't be authentic. They're

all mask and they can't be vulnerable.

They're all defense, right? And so, so

the child becomes inauthentic and

invulnerable. The child develops armor.

You know, a lot of times anger as the

armor or or you know, I think the

children of narcissists have what I call

counter confabulations where, you know,

a narcissist confabulates their past.

The children of narcissists confabulate

a reality where their parents care for

them, right? They confabulate this

reality that makes sense within the

context of what the the idea of a family

is, even if it doesn't match its

reality. And so, the antidote to

narcissistic abuse is is learning to be

vulnerable. learning learning to feel

our feelings openly and share them

because it's never safe with the

narcissist. You can't you you can't they

won't tolerate it, right? They will tell

you how you're feeling. They will tell

you what reality is. And and so,

you know, learning to, you know, and a

lot of it is learning to be sad,

learning to be angry, learning to be

hurt. I mean, if they can't acknowledge

that they're hurting you, they can't

acknowledge your sadness. They can't

acknowledge your trauma because it tears

down their p their distorted perception

of of the family unit. And so, you know,

this is why shadow work is so important

because, you know, if we talk about

shadow work as looking at the things

we've repressed, the entirety of the

authentic self of the child of a

narcissist falls into the repressed

zone, falls into the shame zone. And so,

it's not just our negative qualities,

it's our good qualities, too. Like, we

need to learn to perceive ourselves. I I

work with so many successful people, right?

right?

And I know this in my life, I'm not

successful, but we can't own our own

success, right? Like like their

perception of themselves. There there's

this thing that's really hard for people

to understand that like narcissistic

parents deny their children ownership

over anything over their lives, over

their possessions, and most importantly

over their successes, over over

themselves. And so one of the common

denominators is that people can achieve

great success and still feel and

perceive themselves as less than as as

unworthy of the success. The success,

the experience doesn't build the

character or build the esteem that it

does for other people because we haven't

had ownership over our own lives, right?

And and and so this is where it gets

kind of scary because a lot of times

when we learn ownership over our own

lives, we're also owning our failures

that there there there's this kind of

syndrome I think that happens in

narcissistic abuse where it becomes

easier to have somebody controlling our

lives in a certain way and we get used

to it on a subconscious level and that

when we start owning our lives, it

becomes really scary to own our anger,

to to own our own dysfunction, to own

the bad behaviors that that have stemmed

from, you know,

all of this stuff because we all have

them, you know, but but it it it's

it's necessary, you know. I mean, to

truly overcome narcissistic parents is

is is to cultivate an ownership over our

lives and and and to say, you know,

success, failure, whatever, it's mine,

[ __ ] You know, it's mine. It's

mine now. And I'm going to be myself and

I'm going to feel, you know, without

shame. I'm going to feel the things, you

know, I'm going to talk about the things

um that I've experienced and and and to

do so without actually shame, you know, >> right?

>> right?

>> And that's the big thing with it, too.

In those dysfunctional families,

emotional safety is not present. And

then that always leads to disconnection

because even if the parents say the

right words, in some cases, you don't

trust them because you don't feel that

emotional safety. In order for there to

be trust, there also needs to be

emotional safety.

>> Right. Right. I mean, the biggest lie a

narcissist ever tells is, "I love you."

Right. And so those words, I mean, I see

this in my relationship. My girlfriend

thinks those words kind of trigger me.

And they kind of do because it it it's,

you know, with a narcissist, you always

watch what they say and watch what they

do and see how they don't add up. But

like as a kid, the entire culture,

everybody is telling you trust your

parents. Everybody is telling you your

parents love you. And so what that does,

you're right, it shatters trust in

language. It shatters trust in self. It

shatters trust in in in caregivers,

right? Where it it it's a child like like

cultiv I mean that that idea of safety

is so important, right? Like like

emotional safety. But what is it again?

It's it's it's it's it's the same thing

I think we were talking about with health.

health.

It's the ability to be yourself and and

be seen and loved and accepted as you

are with no transactions or conditions,

right? That like you know an example for

my life like when when when my parents

were getting divorced and there was all

of this anger, it it would have been an

acceptance that yes, we've put you

through a situation where anger is part

of the response. How can we work through

this as a family even if we're divorced?

Right? Not like

come back to me. You know, my dad would

say, "Come back to me when you're not

angry." I'd go home and all the anger

would spill out at my mother and then

I'd be punished and it was just like

this ping-pong ball. And what would

safety have been? It it would have been

being allowed to be angry and then there

wouldn't have been rage like like you

know there just would have been

temporary anger at a situation

that wouldn't have festered for decades,

you know,

>> right? And certain emotions, they're

just not allowed to be felt. Certain

things are unacceptable. And I think

that's why I really liked it when you

had said CPTTSD is kind of like a cork

and maybe you could expand on that.

>> Well, right. Right. And so, you know,

um, Mate describes psychological trauma

as lacking an empathetic witness. Right.

And and and so we don't have empathy in

our lives. And so anytime we we we

display vulnerability or or or speak

authentically that comes from outside of

the narcissist's delusional fantasy

world, anything that comes from outside

of their fantasy world will trigger

them. And so our our real emotions

um trigger them. And so what that does

is it puts this cork on our authentic

self where everything gets filtered

through we'll call it like a filter

maybe. And it gets filtered through this

unconscious question of is it safe to be

this? and nothing is safe. And so so we

become what they want us to be instead

of what we are. And and and that cork

that those those trapped emotions, they

don't they don't evaporate, right? They

they they just it gets to a point where

the cork pops and all of the emotions

come out either, you know,

subconsciously or indirectly or, you

know, directly. But it it it's I mean, I

was so angry. It's it's I'm just happy

to be alive. I mean, I think when I

started understanding the trauma and all

of it came out, it it was like

holding on for dear life basically and

and like writing a lot. Um, but really

like for me it was just naming the

anger. I remember in early recovery I

went to a a woman and I don't I don't

know what what what she technically

does, but it would be a lot about

getting into my feelings. It was called

like wholehearted healing and it would

be like, "What are you feeling?" And I

could never I I didn't know I could

never I would just literally sobb for

like 3 months. I'd go there and sobb and

she'd say, "What are you feeling?" And I

I I literally didn't know how to name a

feeling. And and it was just like this

this cork like this blob like and these

things would just come out and and like

at that point it wasn't even anger. It

was just this this deep deep deep

sadness that when she would ask me how I

feel I would just melt into a puddle. Um,

Um,

but even that was a lesson was that

like, you know, I I think what that

court does, you know, we talk about body

dysmorphia, right, which which

narcissistic parents give us. They're

reflecting back a distorted version, but

they give us life dysmorphia and

emotional dysmorphia where we don't

really know what we're feeling. We just

know that we have all this feeling, but

it's so dangerous to feel it. Um that to

me like I I I cultivated a practice of

what I called emotional mindfulness

early on where I would just acknowledge

if I was sad I would write I am sad

>> you know if I was angry I would write I

am angry you know and I still have these

little post-it notes I'd carry it around

and like if I felt a feeling that I

could identify I would write it down and

I would acknowledge it I would bring it

out of my internal experience and and

something about writing at least for me

makes it real like it takes it and and

puts it you know it puts it out into the

real world and and you know to me that

was me starting to build myself through

the acknowledgement of of of my self

state you know

>> I think it's very important to be able

to put words to our emotions and words

to our feelings as well and some people

might say well you're intellectualizing

your healing but I like what you said

where no we have to understand it in our

own terms terms so we can even get to

the points where we're working through it.

it.

>> Well, there's where paracelis comes in

great handy again. Everything can be

poison or medicine based on context or

dosage. And so this intellectualizing

trauma thing is a big kind of buzz buzz

thing right now. And I see both sides of

it. I think specifically for the

children of narcissists, the early phase

is intellectualizing it because we have

to reclaim the narrative and reestablish

the narrative from our perspective,

right? And so there is an intellectual

layer to it. But I also agree with the

people saying you can't intellectualize

your trauma because it that the trauma

exists somewhere in a different part of

our brain than cognitive thought. Right?

And so like we have to like

get to the point where we understand the

story from our perspective of what

happened, establish it, inhabit it only

to kind of understand that the that

moves us into the next phase of the kind

of somatic stuff, the nervous system

stuff. Um, and that's where I think some

of these things like EMDR and DBR and

and some of these new uh modalities are

really interesting and helpful is

because they're they're they're not

they're not really cognitive, they're

experiential, right? They're they're

kind of seeking to understand the way we

process information um and how that

might translate into trauma and really

hacking the brain that way, right? like

like like it it's really fascinating to

me. But um it also makes me laugh

because like isn't intellectualizing our

trauma what therapyy's been for like the

last like 30 years? Isn't that what they

taught us to do? Like go talk about your

feelings, right? And and so it kind of

it kind of makes me chuckle. But it does

speak to the point that like talking

about feelings isn't feeling them,

right? That that that that like to truly

feel feelings comes without language.

that it that it's not it's I I think as

a culture we've gone overboard in

talking about our feelings from a

certain perspective because it bypasses

the we've kind of confused it as though

like the talking about them is the

feeling them and I I just don't think

that's true.

>> And you had said before that even

thinking can be dissociating from

feelings. I never heard it put that way before.

before.

>> Well, I I I'm weird. I'm like the son of

a meditation teacher. I grew up in a new

age bookstore, you know, and so like um

Christian Murdy talks a lot about

metacognition, but but really think

about that. Like thinking takes us out

of experiencing. When we're thinking

about something, we're not experiencing

something. So this isn't to say thought

is bad, right? Or like don't think. But

I think we think too much. And that we

there there are some experiences that

are lost because we're thinking too

much. And and feeling is one of those

things that that that we have this kind

of like um

you know western enlightenment

principles of like you know the victory

of reason over emotion or whatever. I I

I I think Damasio's book Dart's error

kind of puts that to bed that it's it

it's not true that like reason and

emotion are are intertwined and

informing one another. Um much like

thinking and feeling should be. But but

like we were talking earlier, I think a

lot of times when we're in these

emotionally repressive families or

situations, all of this emotional energy

gets created, right? And we don't have

the freedom to feel it, which is to

release it, to express it. And so that

psychic energy moves from the body into

the mind and creates all of this

rumination and creates all of this

mental activity all because we're not

feeling. And that the tyranny of kind of

cognitive thought is real. I I I get

into weird theories too like um the

primordial mind which is this guy

Michael Robbins kind of extension of

like Freud's primary process and Melanie

Klein's paranoid skitsoid position like

the idea that like so much of our

behavior is driven not by cognitive

thought but by like the these other ways

of engaging with the world you know like

not quite like the subconscious shadow

stuff but but an entirely different like

think of like in the story of human

evolution how we would survive before

language was created for instance,

right? Like be before kind of like

intentive cognitive thought allegedly

took over all of our behaviors. I mean,

it gets into the work of like Robert

Seapolski on free will

>> and like ho how how is how is our how

are we actually getting to our behavior?

It's it's easy to say we're all in full

control of our behavior and we're all

thinking about everything we're doing,

but I think that's total [ __ ] Like

I I I think we can I can stand up and

sit down and and think about it, but

like so much of our behavior, at least

to me, and I think this holds part of

the key to narcissism is understanding

the primordial mind, um is is is being

driven by things other than

conscious cognitive thinking, right?

is much more complex. The human mind, we

talk so much about the evolution of body

and the evolution of brain, but what

about the evolution of mind, the product

of brain, the evolution of

consciousness, right? And and I think

that's to me one of my main critiques of

of Western psychology is that it focuses

too much on brain and not enough on

mind. You know, like I don't know if

that makes sense.

>> That makes perfect sense. That's a f

>> We've got Salasi is here now. He wanted to

>> say you can introduce us to your cat here.

here.

>> Salasi the conquering lion named after Salassie.

Salassie.

>> Oh, okay. >> Yeah.

>> Yeah.

>> So male cat.

>> Oh, yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

>> Yeah. He's a well behaved fella. He He

is a very sweet boy. He's also He's chunky.

chunky.

>> He stays He had a video that got a

million views on TikTok, so he made

himself like 800 bucks. So he stays like

he stays like deep in the treats.

>> I mean, Dr. Sando has a cat as well. And

he was a a fan favorite on that one, too.

too.

>> Yeah. Yeah. No, Salasi's got a lot of

fans online. A friend of mine came over.

He's like, "More people know who your

cat is than they know who I am." I'm

like, "Yeah." Okay. Oh, now he's shot.

Here we go. We'll get a little >> bud.

>> bud.

>> Hey, pal.

>> You also had me thinking too about the

addiction component because I think so

many people with a narcissistic parent,

they do wind up with addictions. A lot

of them are it's kind of a way to

unleash that cork in a way if they support.

support.

>> Well, I I I I tend to think of addiction

through the lens of connection that that

when we're when we're denied that

initial connection to our parents, we're

out there seeking external connection.

And that from one lens addiction is

about seeking that connection, you know,

like looking for connection in all the

wrong places basically. But it's but

it's it's inherently tied to this like

emptiness that we have in our core due

to that lack of connection. But but it

is also um yeah I mean we were talking

about I mean I I would black out you

know and I think in those blackouts a

lot of a lot of my anger would come out.

a lot of the emotions that we spend our

days and a lot of energy repressing for

some reason that filter is gone. Um, and

again I think of it in in the lens of

trauma that I think trauma like creates

the moment as unsafe, right? It's

telling you you're unsafe in a moment

where there's no actual external threat.

And so it creates this need to

dissociate to basically escape this this

this danger in the moment, right? And

so, you know, the addiction, the substances

substances

eventually become the problems

themselves. But I think when it starts

out, it's about it's about escape. You

know, it's about it's about changing our

our mindset of changing our internal

experience. Um, I think addiction is

really largely misunderstood. You know,

I don't think that's like a hot take. I

think I I just think when we focus on

the substances,

um, it's actually like the substance is

almost meaningless. It's the urge. It's

it's it's it's like that that's just the

the the container, but it's the internal

like emptiness or lack of connection to

self um that drives the addiction. You know,

know,

>> it's a symptom like the addiction, the

actual drug use or drinking

>> is a symptom of the issue. And alcohol

is a drug for those who are going to say that.

that.

>> Some people will say that.

>> Yeah. Of course it is. Yeah. And I I I I

have a you know like

I it it's weird but I almost think like

they kept me alive for a while that that

like I I I I did not want to be on this

earth you know and I had a community. I

worked at a bar and you know I

definitely drank too much but I I you

know people will say oh those are just

your drinking friends. Some of them but

like some of your real friends aren't

your real friends. Some of them were.

there was real like care and and value

of me within this kind of existence that

allowed me to get to a point where it

became too much and and I had to, you

know, I was strong enough to actually

make the decision to change my life. But

I I I think in a certain way it bought

me time, you know, and I think a lot of

times people emerge with like this anger

towards the substances or self-hatred

that like it got to that point. But I I

I look back I I mean I I do IFS therapy

in my own life and so I'm learning about

parts in the I look back on those parts

of me with love, right? And and

understand that ultimately that allowed

me to survive, you know, and and it

might I mean if I didn't make the decision when I did, I you know, I very

decision when I did, I you know, I very well might not be here. But I I think um

well might not be here. But I I think um it's hard for me to look back on that

it's hard for me to look back on that time period with anger and and I I more

time period with anger and and I I more look at it with love, you know, and with

look at it with love, you know, and with >> a quiet, I should say.

>> a quiet, I should say. >> Yeah. Well, I I I think so much of parts

>> Yeah. Well, I I I think so much of parts work for me is about loving myself like

work for me is about loving myself like like like I've been working recently on

like like I've been working recently on my angry and sad parts and seeing how

my angry and sad parts and seeing how they're like working in tandem. And it

they're like working in tandem. And it frees us from saying I am an angry

frees us from saying I am an angry person. I am a sad person to saying,

person. I am a sad person to saying, "Oh, no. I just have this angry part,

"Oh, no. I just have this angry part, right? I just have this sad part. I'm

right? I just have this sad part. I'm this I'm this collection." I think the

this I'm this collection." I think the children of narcissists have like parts

children of narcissists have like parts parties. We have lots of parts, right?

parties. We have lots of parts, right? Because the chaos of the narcissist

Because the chaos of the narcissist creates all of these different ways we

creates all of these different ways we have to be and different parts that

have to be and different parts that emerge. Um, but it's it it's it to me

emerge. Um, but it's it it's it to me it's like again it's it's kind of just

it's like again it's it's kind of just using different language to describe the

using different language to describe the thing, but it's like this idea of

thing, but it's like this idea of acceptance, you know, instead of

acceptance, you know, instead of illness, you know, to me is is much more

illness, you know, to me is is much more healing than believing I I I I am

healing than believing I I I I am any one of these self states and that's

any one of these self states and that's all I am. I'm all things at once. Right?

all I am. I'm all things at once. Right? Consciousness is experiencing everything

Consciousness is experiencing everything we've ever experienced all at once and

we've ever experienced all at once and and and turning it into a moment. And um

and and turning it into a moment. And um when we believe we're only one thing,

when we believe we're only one thing, we're selling ourselves short, right?

we're selling ourselves short, right? We're not we're not just our depression.

We're not we're not just our depression. We're not just our trauma. We're not

We're not just our trauma. We're not we're not any one thing. We we are a a

we're not any one thing. We we are a a kind of,

kind of, you know, like consciousness. I I think

you know, like consciousness. I I think it was Ian McIllchrist maybe who said it

it was Ian McIllchrist maybe who said it like consciousness isn't a soloist, it's

like consciousness isn't a soloist, it's an orchestra, you know. I think that's

an orchestra, you know. I think that's brilliant.

brilliant. >> I like that. I like that a lot.

>> I like that. I like that a lot. >> Now, you said the term selfate there. Do

>> Now, you said the term selfate there. Do you think covert narcissists and

you think covert narcissists and grandiose narcissists, are they more

grandiose narcissists, are they more self states or do you think they're

self states or do you think they're separate? Because I've heard some people

separate? Because I've heard some people say they're just self states.

say they're just self states. >> Sometimes when I think the term covert

>> Sometimes when I think the term covert narcissist is more about our

narcissist is more about our misunderstanding of what narcissism

misunderstanding of what narcissism actually is rather than it's it's

actually is rather than it's it's covert. It's it's maybe that it plays

covert. It's it's maybe that it plays against the the kind of like archetype

against the the kind of like archetype or pop culture of the grandiose

or pop culture of the grandiose narcissist. But I think if we're truly

narcissist. But I think if we're truly understanding what it is, it it's not so

understanding what it is, it it's not so covert or or maybe it's because it can

covert or or maybe it's because it can hide in like masks of altruism.

hide in like masks of altruism. >> Um,

>> Um, but I I don't think they have self

but I I don't think they have self states, you know. I I think the

states, you know. I I think the narcissist is character I mean they do,

narcissist is character I mean they do, but it's like this very

but it's like this very blunt un unformed self, you know, that

blunt un unformed self, you know, that that is that is guarded by the grandiose

that is that is guarded by the grandiose false self. And so this is one of the

false self. And so this is one of the things me and my my friend Shadow

things me and my my friend Shadow Dangelist are always trying to figure

Dangelist are always trying to figure out is like

out is like how do they operate so well with this

how do they operate so well with this grandiose false self? Like you know like

grandiose false self? Like you know like what is the relationship between these

what is the relationship between these things? And so I think the true self

things? And so I think the true self state of the narcissist is like is like

state of the narcissist is like is like that paranoid skitsoid rage. It's like

that paranoid skitsoid rage. It's like that that core of an infant almost, you

that that core of an infant almost, you know, and that all all of their kind of

know, and that all all of their kind of polished stuff is a mask. But I I you

polished stuff is a mask. But I I you know that's just a theory. I I don't

know that's just a theory. I I don't >> That's an interesting thing to dig into

>> That's an interesting thing to dig into as well because we know we've gone over

as well because we know we've gone over a lot with other people the genetic side

a lot with other people the genetic side of things. But do you think a lot of it

of things. But do you think a lot of it is the lack of individuation from say

is the lack of individuation from say >> I do brother? I I think that the

>> I do brother? I I think that the narcissist at root confuses self and

narcissist at root confuses self and world right that they they experience

world right that they they experience their external world as governed by

their external world as governed by their internal self state right that I

their internal self state right that I believe they don't have like think of

believe they don't have like think of self self is a very hard thing to define

self self is a very hard thing to define right and and there's all sorts of

right and and there's all sorts of theories and one way to look at self

theories and one way to look at self would be a container that houses our

would be a container that houses our emotions that houses our ability to take

emotions that houses our ability to take responsibility so I think they lack a

responsibility so I think they lack a container of self they lack an individ

container of self they lack an individ iduation which means they don't see

iduation which means they don't see themselves as an individual. They see

themselves as an individual. They see themselves as the world and they see

themselves as the world and they see other people as objects and they

other people as objects and they displace the elements of self we would

displace the elements of self we would put into our container internal

put into our container internal container of self onto the containers

container of self onto the containers around them which are other people which

around them which are other people which is why they're constantly accusing

is why they're constantly accusing people of what they're doing. they're

people of what they're doing. they're constantly projecting their emotional

constantly projecting their emotional states into other people that there

states into other people that there there's this inversion

there's this inversion of of self and world and that they they

of of self and world and that they they they don't see themselves as an

they don't see themselves as an individual. They live in a in in a in an

individual. They live in a in in a in an undifferentiated world where their self

undifferentiated world where their self is the world and not in like the kind of

is the world and not in like the kind of we are the world like newagy like you

we are the world like newagy like you know I've I've killed my ego but in the

know I've I've killed my ego but in the more like I am the tyrannical overlord

more like I am the tyrannical overlord of this external world and my inability

of this external world and my inability to feel and contain my own emotions will

to feel and contain my own emotions will terrorize everybody else. Right? that

terrorize everybody else. Right? that that it's it's it's funny because like

that it's it's it's funny because like the language to describe it that I use

the language to describe it that I use almost sounds like an enlightened being.

almost sounds like an enlightened being. Sometimes when I say they confuse self

Sometimes when I say they confuse self for world, it would, you know, that that

for world, it would, you know, that that that statement in a vacuum could be

that statement in a vacuum could be looked at through some newagy lens of

looked at through some newagy lens of like, oh well, they're one with the

like, oh well, they're one with the universe. But it's it it it's it's not

universe. But it's it it it's it's not one with the universe, they are the

one with the universe, they are the universe, right? Where it's

universe, right? Where it's >> it's like this tyrannical displacement

>> it's like this tyrannical displacement of self, right? where again like the

of self, right? where again like the grandiose false self can't hold

grandiose false self can't hold negative, right? And so anything that's

negative, right? And so anything that's negative or anything that pierces it has

negative or anything that pierces it has to be met with rage and displacement,

to be met with rage and displacement, right? That that that again like and

right? That that that again like and these are all theories of consciousness

these are all theories of consciousness basically of how how a human being

basically of how how a human being experiences self. You know, again with

experiences self. You know, again with Damasio has a has a has a theory of self

Damasio has a has a has a theory of self that comes with three components. The

that comes with three components. The proto self, the core self, and the

proto self, the core self, and the narrative self, right? And so um the

narrative self, right? And so um the proto self as I understand it I think is

proto self as I understand it I think is just kind of existing right the core

just kind of existing right the core self is the thing that goes out and

self is the thing that goes out and interacts with other things. The

interacts with other things. The narrative self is the story we tell

narrative self is the story we tell ourselves about ourselves

ourselves about ourselves you know to have a coherent identity

you know to have a coherent identity basically. I I I don't think that third

basically. I I I don't think that third part, I think, is where the narcissists

part, I think, is where the narcissists go wrong, where they're not tethered to

go wrong, where they're not tethered to this kind of like coherent narrative,

this kind of like coherent narrative, right? That they're living in the

right? That they're living in the moment, constructing the their self

moment, constructing the their self based on what they need in the moment.

based on what they need in the moment. That that I really believe their

That that I really believe their interpretation of true is what gives

interpretation of true is what gives them is what is what helps them. That

them is what is what helps them. That they're not they're not tethered to

they're not they're not tethered to truth as a shared experience. You know,

truth as a shared experience. You know, they don't use language, I always say,

they don't use language, I always say, to describe reality. They use it to

to describe reality. They use it to create reality. Once a narcissist says

create reality. Once a narcissist says something out loud, it functions as true

something out loud, it functions as true to them. Now, we could get into these

to them. Now, we could get into these debates of whether they know they're

debates of whether they know they're lying, whether they know I mean, I think

lying, whether they know I mean, I think sometimes they do, right? But I I I I I

sometimes they do, right? But I I I I I don't think they can truly tell the

don't think they can truly tell the truth when it butts up against their

truth when it butts up against their delusions. You know, I think that

delusions. You know, I think that they're far more uh delusional than we

they're far more uh delusional than we let on. that that that you know I I I

let on. that that that you know I I I don't think they have access like

don't think they have access like empathy like I don't believe they feel

empathy like I don't believe they feel it and push through it. I I don't

it and push through it. I I don't believe it enters into their

believe it enters into their consideration. You know I always use the

consideration. You know I always use the example of my chair like if they see

example of my chair like if they see people as objects you know like me when

people as objects you know like me when I sit on my chair I don't consider

I sit on my chair I don't consider whether I'm hurting my chair because on

whether I'm hurting my chair because on some level of consciousness I'm aware

some level of consciousness I'm aware this is an object. I I think that's how

this is an object. I I think that's how it is with true narcissists and people.

it is with true narcissists and people. They just don't consider the humanity of

They just don't consider the humanity of other people. Right. And whether they

other people. Right. And whether they know they're lying or not, the bottom

know they're lying or not, the bottom line is they they absolutely do. They

line is they they absolutely do. They are lying in terms of how they

are lying in terms of how they >> Yeah. Ultimately, it doesn't m like like

>> Yeah. Ultimately, it doesn't m like like like there's two conversations, right?

like there's two conversations, right? There's like how do we deal with these

There's like how do we deal with these people and and keep ourselves safe and

people and and keep ourselves safe and not traumatized, in which case it

not traumatized, in which case it doesn't [ __ ] matter what the hell is

doesn't [ __ ] matter what the hell is going on inside of them, right? But then

going on inside of them, right? But then there's also trying to understand I mean

there's also trying to understand I mean I think I think to me like understanding

I think I think to me like understanding issues of mental health is actually

issues of mental health is actually about understanding the internal

about understanding the internal experience not the behavior right not

experience not the behavior right not not not the observe because like not all

not not the observe because like not all of the same behaviors are being arrived

of the same behaviors are being arrived at through the same kind of internal

at through the same kind of internal equations I guess or whatever

equations I guess or whatever >> because it sure seems like they have a

>> because it sure seems like they have a lot of a distorted perception of reality

lot of a distorted perception of reality is what I like to call it and when

is what I like to call it and when people are in a trauma bond with them I

people are in a trauma bond with them I call that being subscribed to their

call that being subscribed to their distorted perception of reality.

distorted perception of reality. >> Yeah. Yeah. Or engulfed by it, you know,

>> Yeah. Yeah. Or engulfed by it, you know, where where where it it's and again like

where where where it it's and again like I I think there's there's very like I

I I think there's there's very like I think they absolutely know that they're

think they absolutely know that they're lying sometimes. I think they absolutely

lying sometimes. I think they absolutely know that they're scheming sometimes,

know that they're scheming sometimes, but I also think like with the

but I also think like with the confabulations that it's compulsive that

confabulations that it's compulsive that that it's that it's just the way their

that it's that it's just the way their mind works. That like it's not there's

mind works. That like it's not there's not as I I mean I really think this is

not as I I mean I really think this is primordial mind stuff that it's it's

primordial mind stuff that it's it's just the way that they're responding.

just the way that they're responding. It's not like it's not this. They can be

It's not like it's not this. They can be cold and calculating, but I I I just

cold and calculating, but I I I just think

think so much of our understanding of other

so much of our understanding of other people's minds come from our

people's minds come from our understanding of our own. And I just

understanding of our own. And I just think there's this vast difference

think there's this vast difference between how people's minds work and and

between how people's minds work and and and how how they're interpreting

and how how they're interpreting reality. I mean, I think at root

reality. I mean, I think at root narcissism is a reality distortion

narcissism is a reality distortion disorder, you know, and and it's a

disorder, you know, and and it's a distortion rooted in object relations

distortion rooted in object relations with with self, other, and the world,

with with self, other, and the world, right? Where there, you know, if you if

right? Where there, you know, if you if you're in a relationship long enough

you're in a relationship long enough with them, they're constantly there

with them, they're constantly there there's moments of like weird confused

there's moments of like weird confused stuff with them where they're they

stuff with them where they're they genuinely seem confused about who did

genuinely seem confused about who did what, you know? I mean, and it's I think

what, you know? I mean, and it's I think this is where maybe the experience of a

this is where maybe the experience of a child as opposed to a partner helps see

child as opposed to a partner helps see it clearly because like I feel like

it clearly because like I feel like perhaps there's a more entitlement in in

perhaps there's a more entitlement in in a parental child relationship than there

a parental child relationship than there would be in a romantic relationship that

would be in a romantic relationship that all sorts of people are disingenuous in

all sorts of people are disingenuous in their romantic relationships and and you

their romantic relationships and and you know, but the child sees like I've seen

know, but the child sees like I've seen my dad like and it looks like he wants

my dad like and it looks like he wants to be a good dad. Like it looks like

to be a good dad. Like it looks like he's genuinely trying and then something

he's genuinely trying and then something comes out of his mouth where you're just

comes out of his mouth where you're just like what the [ __ ] did you just say?

like what the [ __ ] did you just say? Like like what? Like that doesn't make

Like like what? Like that doesn't make any sense. And there's there's really no

any sense. And there's there's really no reason to lie, you know, or no reason to

reason to lie, you know, or no reason to distort reality in that way. Um

distort reality in that way. Um it's mystifying.

it's mystifying. >> It truly is. And you had mentioned ego

>> It truly is. And you had mentioned ego death previously there. And what do you

death previously there. And what do you think if a narcissist were to take a

think if a narcissist were to take a psychedelic? Maybe it's Iawaska, LSD,

psychedelic? Maybe it's Iawaska, LSD, mushrooms, some fill in the blank.

mushrooms, some fill in the blank. >> Yeah, people ask this would happen.

>> Yeah, people ask this would happen. >> People ask this all the time. Um it's

>> People ask this all the time. Um it's not good. Um th those substances like

not good. Um th those substances like show you yourself. And if the true self

show you yourself. And if the true self of a narcissist is like basically

of a narcissist is like basically trapped in infancy or or or or is empty

trapped in infancy or or or or is empty and all it does is cut through the

and all it does is cut through the grandiose false self, it's not an ego

grandiose false self, it's not an ego death. It's psychic collapse.

death. It's psychic collapse. >> That's one way. The other way would be

>> That's one way. The other way would be just reinforcing their delusions of

just reinforcing their delusions of grandeur where they become God

grandeur where they become God basically. You know, psychedelics like

basically. You know, psychedelics like in some ways enhance what you already

in some ways enhance what you already are, right? Like like it it I I don't

are, right? Like like it it I I don't really like the term ego death so much

really like the term ego death so much because I I think we misunderstand ego

because I I think we misunderstand ego function. It's almost like more like

function. It's almost like more like identity death,

identity death, >> you know, and I'm not sure that those

>> you know, and I'm not sure that those words are interchangeable. Um, you know,

words are interchangeable. Um, you know, like my dad caught me taking

like my dad caught me taking psychedelics when I was like 16, 17 or

psychedelics when I was like 16, 17 or something and like he's a yoga

something and like he's a yoga meditation teacher with no

meditation teacher with no self-awareness. He goes, "Oh, that's

self-awareness. He goes, "Oh, that's going to kick the door open. Meditation

going to kick the door open. Meditation will slowly open." And that's all he

will slowly open." And that's all he said. So, I was like, "So, are you

said. So, I was like, "So, are you telling me to take more of them?"

telling me to take more of them?" >> Um, and but what it did was set me off

>> Um, and but what it did was set me off on this kind of quest to try to figure

on this kind of quest to try to figure out what is this link between meditation

out what is this link between meditation and psychedelics? And to me, it's it's

and psychedelics? And to me, it's it's about it's about conditioning. It's

about it's about conditioning. It's about cutting like like think of

about cutting like like think of consciousness like a window you know and

consciousness like a window you know and like our experience our traumas

like our experience our traumas fog up the window and the psychedelics

fog up the window and the psychedelics are like 409 on the window of

are like 409 on the window of consciousness that wipe it clear for a

consciousness that wipe it clear for a little time so we might see what life is

little time so we might see what life is like without the trauma without without

like without the trauma without without the the kind of like Buddhists would

the the kind of like Buddhists would call it like dooka like negative

call it like dooka like negative conditioning or whatever and so with the

conditioning or whatever and so with the narcissist like there's nothing there

narcissist like there's nothing there right to to to see, right? And so, um,

right to to to see, right? And so, um, in order for it to work, there would

in order for it to work, there would have to be like some shaman that would

have to be like some shaman that would that would like manage that psychic

that would like manage that psychic collapse and rebuild them basically from

collapse and rebuild them basically from infancy into a person, but I I just like

infancy into a person, but I I just like >> I don't see it. You know, I I have a

>> I don't see it. You know, I I have a follower on Instagram that's like a

follower on Instagram that's like a guide and and he talks about them like

guide and and he talks about them like reacting violently, but it's because

reacting violently, but it's because like I always say like one of the

like I always say like one of the differences between BPD and NPD is a lot

differences between BPD and NPD is a lot of times with BPD if you show them their

of times with BPD if you show them their true self, they they react positively. I

true self, they they react positively. I made a video once that that's had a life

made a video once that that's had a life of its own and therapists hate it, but I

of its own and therapists hate it, but I was talking like nicely about BPD. It

was talking like nicely about BPD. It got watched seven million times on

got watched seven million times on TikTok, but it was just went viral. This

TikTok, but it was just went viral. This was five years ago, four years ago. It

was five years ago, four years ago. It just went viral again without me. They

just went viral again without me. They just use it as a voice and it made

just use it as a voice and it made hundreds of thousands if not millions of

hundreds of thousands if not millions of people cry good tears saying I've never

people cry good tears saying I've never felt this scene before. Now the

felt this scene before. Now the therapist will say that it's not always

therapist will say that it's not always narcissistic parents but they're

narcissistic parents but they're fundamentally missing what I'm doing.

fundamentally missing what I'm doing. That was a response to a specific person

That was a response to a specific person in my community of children of

in my community of children of narcissists and I talked about it as a

narcissists and I talked about it as a response to narcissistic abuse. And when

response to narcissistic abuse. And when you showed all of these people diagnosed

you showed all of these people diagnosed with BPD themselves, they started crying

with BPD themselves, they started crying good tears. If you show a narcissist

good tears. If you show a narcissist their self, you you should probably

their self, you you should probably duck, you know, like like like run

duck, you know, like like like run because it's gonna it's gonna be rage,

because it's gonna it's gonna be rage, right, if you poke through that thing.

right, if you poke through that thing. And so, um,

And so, um, >> what did you say about the border lines?

>> what did you say about the border lines? >> Well, I just I just said that like there

>> Well, I just I just said that like there there there there's a real person

there there there's a real person beneath the borderline that that a lot

beneath the borderline that that a lot of a lot of times, not always, and I

of a lot of times, not always, and I know people have a lot of trouble with

know people have a lot of trouble with border lines. I think it's I think it's

border lines. I think it's I think it's irresponsibly diagnosed and a lot of

irresponsibly diagnosed and a lot of times it's actually narcissism and and

times it's actually narcissism and and so this isn't to excuse any experience

so this isn't to excuse any experience people have had but I think in some ways

people have had but I think in some ways it's it's the mirror of narcissism that

it's it's the mirror of narcissism that that the only real objective thing is

that the only real objective thing is the definition of it right I because to

the definition of it right I because to to to diagnose it is object is

to to diagnose it is object is subjective right and so if we're we're

subjective right and so if we're we're observing somebody diagnosed with BPD we

observing somebody diagnosed with BPD we can't pull the BPD out of the body and

can't pull the BPD out of the body and observe it we're observing somebody

observe it we're observing somebody that's been subjectively diagnosed. So

that's been subjectively diagnosed. So to me, the only objective data is the

to me, the only objective data is the description, the diagnostic criteria.

description, the diagnostic criteria. And to me, when you read it, the

And to me, when you read it, the characteristics, it reads like somebody

characteristics, it reads like somebody that's been in a nar that's

that's been in a nar that's narcissistically defended, right? Shaky

narcissistically defended, right? Shaky relationships,

relationships, emotional explosions. Well, if you're

emotional explosions. Well, if you're living a life of complete emotional

living a life of complete emotional repression, that cork is going to

repression, that cork is going to explode sometimes. But, you know, I'

explode sometimes. But, you know, I' I've learned more about it since then,

I've learned more about it since then, and so I probably would word it very

and so I probably would word it very differently. Um,

differently. Um, but what I'm trying to do is make

but what I'm trying to do is make content that either resonates or

content that either resonates or doesn't. I I don't believe there are

doesn't. I I don't believe there are definitive answers to any of this. So, I

definitive answers to any of this. So, I know there have been some therapists

know there have been some therapists that didn't like that video claiming

that didn't like that video claiming like it was like like like kissing their

like it was like like like kissing their ass or telling them what they wanted to

ass or telling them what they wanted to hear, but like some people need to be

hear, but like some people need to be spoken to with compassion. And BPD is

spoken to with compassion. And BPD is one of those things where therapists

one of those things where therapists won't work with them. A lot of times it

won't work with them. A lot of times it is the scapegoat disorder that you have

is the scapegoat disorder that you have narcissism on the other side. And so I I

narcissism on the other side. And so I I I mean, forgive me for speaking with

I mean, forgive me for speaking with compassion about something that that is

compassion about something that that is usually lacking. And and you know, I

usually lacking. And and you know, I mean, since then, I I I've I've done

mean, since then, I I I've I've done like some more research into it. I have

like some more research into it. I have a friend who's a BPD researcher at

a friend who's a BPD researcher at Colombia and she let me do like she has

Colombia and she let me do like she has a whole program about recovering. And so

a whole program about recovering. And so I've learned a lot, you know, that it is

I've learned a lot, you know, that it is much more, you know, profoundly

much more, you know, profoundly disruptive. But I I guess to me it's

disruptive. But I I guess to me it's it's more a statement of the way it's

it's more a statement of the way it's diagnosed and that if so many people

diagnosed and that if so many people were responding by by by crying good

were responding by by by crying good tears and saying I've never felt this

tears and saying I've never felt this scene before. Um and if it didn't, you

scene before. Um and if it didn't, you know, it either resonate, you know, my

know, it either resonate, you know, my content is not me. I'm not an expert.

content is not me. I'm not an expert. What I want is to resonate or not

What I want is to resonate or not resonate. And if it resonates with

resonate. And if it resonates with people, that's good to me. If it

people, that's good to me. If it doesn't, they can just scroll on. not

doesn't, they can just scroll on. not not everything is is like you know that

not everything is is like you know that there are no definitive answers to this

there are no definitive answers to this stuff you know and they would say well

stuff you know and they would say well it's not always the children of

it's not always the children of narcissists nobody ever said it was

narcissists nobody ever said it was right like it's just it's like if I go

right like it's just it's like if I go share a story about my experience

share a story about my experience um it doesn't have to apply to everybody

um it doesn't have to apply to everybody it's not meant to I I don't think I

it's not meant to I I don't think I don't think like this stuff works that

don't think like this stuff works that way

way >> I think it's very helpful to give them

>> I think it's very helpful to give them that empathetic approach because if

that empathetic approach because if those people are going to getting help.

those people are going to getting help. That's a good way to get them to be open

That's a good way to get them to be open and honest.

and honest. >> You have to talk to people in ways that

>> You have to talk to people in ways that they can hear it that will help them.

they can hear it that will help them. So, what is the goal to like lord like

So, what is the goal to like lord like shame over them? They're already

shame over them? They're already drowning in shame, right? Like like

drowning in shame, right? Like like BPDers hate themselves. And so, and

BPDers hate themselves. And so, and don't get me started on this comorbid

don't get me started on this comorbid thing. It makes no sense to me. How how

thing. It makes no sense to me. How how can you be and how how can you be

can you be and how how can you be pathologically incapable of guilt and

pathologically incapable of guilt and drowning in guilt? It it doesn't as an

drowning in guilt? It it doesn't as an experience. It doesn't make any sense.

experience. It doesn't make any sense. BPD and NPD can't be comorbid. and

BPD and NPD can't be comorbid. and they'll say there's 40% coorbidity.

they'll say there's 40% coorbidity. Yeah, if you're diagnosing based on

Yeah, if you're diagnosing based on behavioral traits, but if you're looking

behavioral traits, but if you're looking at the core experience as a human being

at the core experience as a human being um and understanding them both, they're

um and understanding them both, they're they're they're not it's mutually

they're they're not it's mutually exclusive. Like it it can't I you know

exclusive. Like it it can't I you know that might be

that might be >> expand on that because I know I know

>> expand on that because I know I know there's people that will disagree with

there's people that will disagree with that part because some people will say

that part because some people will say 60% of the cluster B disorders can be

60% of the cluster B disorders can be comorbid. So what do you mean when you

comorbid. So what do you mean when you say that the pathological guilt and too

say that the pathological guilt and too little guilt can't

little guilt can't >> Well, I mean the people that believe

>> Well, I mean the people that believe like

like believe that narcissism is a failed

believe that narcissism is a failed individuation from the parent, right? If

individuation from the parent, right? If if you're looking at say Melanie Klein's

if you're looking at say Melanie Klein's progression of development, right? The

progression of development, right? The paranoid schizoid position moves into

paranoid schizoid position moves into the depressive position when when the

the depressive position when when the the child learns to hold good and bad in

the child learns to hold good and bad in the same container and then guilt is

the same container and then guilt is formed and that guilt is what

formed and that guilt is what transitions them from one phase to the

transitions them from one phase to the next. And so if you believe that to be

next. And so if you believe that to be the core of pathological narcissism,

the core of pathological narcissism, they don't ever develop the capacity to

they don't ever develop the capacity to feel guilt.

feel guilt. If you talk to people with BPD, they

If you talk to people with BPD, they feel guilt, right? that that a lot of

feel guilt, right? that that a lot of times they're drowning in guilt. A lot

times they're drowning in guilt. A lot of times, you know, and again, it's it's

of times, you know, and again, it's it's it's it this is

difficult to talk about because there there's no objective diagnostic

there's no objective diagnostic criteria. Again, it's like if you're

criteria. Again, it's like if you're studying cancer, you pull the cancer out

studying cancer, you pull the cancer out of the body and you observe the cancer,

of the body and you observe the cancer, right? You can't do that with these

right? You can't do that with these disorders. So, so the thing you're

disorders. So, so the thing you're observing is somebody that's been

observing is somebody that's been subjectively diagnosed by a therapist of

subjectively diagnosed by a therapist of unknown

unknown capabilities who's seeing a very small

capabilities who's seeing a very small sample size of behavior. I mean, I I I I

sample size of behavior. I mean, I I I I I don't mean to be dismissive, but like

I don't mean to be dismissive, but like you go see five different therapists on

you go see five different therapists on five different days, you might get five

five different days, you might get five different diagnosises, right? I mean,

different diagnosises, right? I mean, >> sure.

>> sure. >> And so, um I don't know. I I have a hard

>> And so, um I don't know. I I have a hard time with BPD because I I I guess I just

time with BPD because I I I guess I just have more sympathy for it than I do for

have more sympathy for it than I do for NPD.

NPD. >> Well, what it could be I think maybe

>> Well, what it could be I think maybe you're referring to going back to the

you're referring to going back to the operating system part. There's a a

operating system part. There's a a narcissistic operating system and

narcissistic operating system and perhaps what you're saying is a

perhaps what you're saying is a narcissistic and borderline operating

narcissistic and borderline operating system can't both be present. And

system can't both be present. And >> well, the behaviors can look the same,

>> well, the behaviors can look the same, but I don't think the I it's I I don't I

but I don't think the I it's I I don't I think there are internal experiences and

think there are internal experiences and emotional kind of like

emotional kind of like limitations.

limitations. I I I just don't see it as as

I I I just don't see it as as >> let me see if I can articulate what I

>> let me see if I can articulate what I mean here. So, I think there's such a

mean here. So, I think there's such a thing as a borderline operating system

thing as a borderline operating system that there might be a genetic

that there might be a genetic predisposition for some of that and they

predisposition for some of that and they might have some narcissistic behaviors,

might have some narcissistic behaviors, right? But that's not the same as a

right? But that's not the same as a narcissistic a full-blown narcissistic

narcissistic a full-blown narcissistic operating system.

operating system. >> Right. Right. Well, if you're if you're

>> Right. Right. Well, if you're if you're diagnosing narcissism, and this drives

diagnosing narcissism, and this drives me nuts as five out of nine traits, then

me nuts as five out of nine traits, then yeah, it could be comorbid because a a

yeah, it could be comorbid because a a BPDER most likely does have five out of

BPDER most likely does have five out of nine narcissistic traits. But if you're

nine narcissistic traits. But if you're actually looking past the traits and the

actually looking past the traits and the behaviors and into the internal

behaviors and into the internal experience of of what what they're

experience of of what what they're actually feeling and experiencing, it

actually feeling and experiencing, it becomes something very different. Right?

becomes something very different. Right? And and this is why I don't like the

And and this is why I don't like the traits based stuff and I think it's how

traits based stuff and I think it's how we've gotten to a place where

we've gotten to a place where everybody's calling everybody else a

everybody's calling everybody else a narcissist because everybody has

narcissist because everybody has narcissistic traits. And from one

narcissistic traits. And from one person's pers, you know, I mean I I I

person's pers, you know, I mean I I I guess I have a real hard time with that

guess I have a real hard time with that diagnostic criteria. As somebody that

diagnostic criteria. As somebody that was raised by a pathological narcissist,

was raised by a pathological narcissist, I don't find it to be a collection of

I don't find it to be a collection of traits. I find it to be like this

traits. I find it to be like this operating system, this Earl Burrough of

operating system, this Earl Burrough of of like limit. they're trapped in their

of like limit. they're trapped in their own kind of consciousness and and they

own kind of consciousness and and they can't they they they can't the reason

can't they they they can't the reason they can't heal is there's nothing to go

they can't heal is there's nothing to go back to, right? There's no baseline. Um

back to, right? There's no baseline. Um but again, I mean I I the the BPD thing

but again, I mean I I the the BPD thing like um

like um it just seems like so heavily

it just seems like so heavily stigmatized, you know, and and and like

stigmatized, you know, and and and like sometimes

sometimes it's about understanding what connects

it's about understanding what connects to a person. If I thought you could tell

to a person. If I thought you could tell NPD the truth about themselves and it

NPD the truth about themselves and it would it would help them, then I would

would it would help them, then I would do that, too. But the experience is if

do that, too. But the experience is if you tell them the truth about their

you tell them the truth about their behavior, they have their their defense

behavior, they have their their defense mechanisms that kick in that can't

mechanisms that kick in that can't accept like they'll always interpret an

accept like they'll always interpret an accurate description of themselves as an

accurate description of themselves as an attack because it falls outside of their

attack because it falls outside of their ability to control the narrative.

ability to control the narrative. >> Now, you got me thinking also going back

>> Now, you got me thinking also going back to the psychedelics part. I see a lot of

to the psychedelics part. I see a lot of narcissistic people that I think also

narcissistic people that I think also have that operating system as well.

have that operating system as well. >> They do all sorts of psychedelics, but

>> They do all sorts of psychedelics, but then they never seem to have that

then they never seem to have that spiritual awakening where they actually

spiritual awakening where they actually carry that force.

carry that force. >> No, the psychedelic warrior becomes

>> No, the psychedelic warrior becomes their grandiose false self, right? Like

their grandiose false self, right? Like like that becomes their persona and

like that becomes their persona and they're the ones that are going on 10

they're the ones that are going on 10 ISA retreats

ISA retreats >> a year, which is totally not the [ __ ]

>> a year, which is totally not the [ __ ] point, right? Like like like it's not

point, right? Like like like it's not the point. And it's like Alan Watts was

the point. And it's like Alan Watts was talking about psychedelics and he says

talking about psychedelics and he says when you get the message hang up the

when you get the message hang up the phone, right? And and that's the vibe is

phone, right? And and that's the vibe is that they are

that they are >> I never heard that

>> I never heard that >> they are vehicles. They are not

>> they are vehicles. They are not recreational drugs, right? I mean and

recreational drugs, right? I mean and not everybody like I used to go on fish

not everybody like I used to go on fish tour as a kid and like macro do the hell

tour as a kid and like macro do the hell out of it for a summer, you know, but it

out of it for a summer, you know, but it it didn't it didn't give me spiritual

it didn't it didn't give me spiritual awakenings, you know, because that

awakenings, you know, because that they're they're not it's not the

they're they're not it's not the substance alone. It's it's the intent.

substance alone. It's it's the intent. It's what we're bringing to the party.

It's what we're bringing to the party. You you know what we're trying to do. I

You you know what we're trying to do. I mean, it's it's

mean, it's it's but I I look at it like meditation. I

but I I look at it like meditation. I mean, there's so many narcissists in the

mean, there's so many narcissists in the new age community, you know, there's so

new age community, you know, there's so and but it's just it's a narcissist will

and but it's just it's a narcissist will wear any mask. We'll find them anywhere,

wear any mask. We'll find them anywhere, right? That that's the other thing where

right? That that's the other thing where it's like they they are,

it's like they they are, you know, especially in the healing

you know, especially in the healing community. if if they're the perpetual

community. if if they're the perpetual victimhood is a component of it, you

victimhood is a component of it, you know, and they're always cycling

know, and they're always cycling between, you know, victim and savior,

between, you know, victim and savior, grandiosity and victimhood, but it's

grandiosity and victimhood, but it's like there's a lot of them hiding in

like there's a lot of them hiding in healing communities.

healing communities. >> Yeah,

>> Yeah, >> you better believe it. I mean,

>> you better believe it. I mean, >> and that's the other thing about it too,

>> and that's the other thing about it too, right? where any insight someone gets in

right? where any insight someone gets in a psychedelic experience if you don't

a psychedelic experience if you don't bring those lessons or the message as

bring those lessons or the message as Alan Watts would say into your

Alan Watts would say into your day-to-day life, what good was that

day-to-day life, what good was that experience to you anyway.

experience to you anyway. >> Right. Right. Well, that's the whole

>> Right. Right. Well, that's the whole integration part. If we wipe that window

integration part. If we wipe that window of consciousness clean and we get a

of consciousness clean and we get a glimpse of of what it might feel like to

glimpse of of what it might feel like to be unhindered by our traumas, we then

be unhindered by our traumas, we then have to learn how to integrate that into

have to learn how to integrate that into our normal experience and use use what

our normal experience and use use what we've seen. not not just go back for

we've seen. not not just go back for more. You you know

more. You you know >> that's the other thing. I don't think it

>> that's the other thing. I don't think it can truly shatter their operating system

can truly shatter their operating system either if they have that operating

either if they have that operating system. If anything, it's just going to

system. If anything, it's just going to twist and distort the message that that

twist and distort the message that that plant medicine

plant medicine >> it matters who we are to begin with,

>> it matters who we are to begin with, right? Like it it can't take a Mac and

right? Like it it can't take a Mac and turn it into a PC, you know? And so, um,

turn it into a PC, you know? And so, um, I it it's

I it it's I think like everything else,

I think like everything else, psychedelics are becoming a commodity

psychedelics are becoming a commodity for for a consumer culture that wants to

for for a consumer culture that wants to buy the status of healed. And that's not

buy the status of healed. And that's not something you can buy. Nobody can do it

something you can buy. Nobody can do it for you. You do it yourself. It's ugly

for you. You do it yourself. It's ugly and hard or it doesn't happen. Right.

and hard or it doesn't happen. Right. >> There's no ma people want to see it as a

>> There's no ma people want to see it as a magic cure. Oh yeah,

magic cure. Oh yeah, >> take you take acid or Iaska, you'll get

>> take you take acid or Iaska, you'll get an ego ego death and you'll never be the

an ego ego death and you'll never be the same. It's like not quite. I think the

same. It's like not quite. I think the only

only >> I find it to be fleeting and I've been

>> I find it to be fleeting and I've been doing these things since I was a kid,

doing these things since I was a kid, you know, with with with intent and like

you know, with with with intent and like I I I I I'm actually more scared of them

I I I I I'm actually more scared of them now than I've ever been, you know, like

now than I've ever been, you know, like not like a healthy fear of like

not like a healthy fear of like >> maybe respect is the right word where

>> maybe respect is the right word where it's like I don't see them as child's

it's like I don't see them as child's play that to truly kind of use them in

play that to truly kind of use them in the way that's necessary. And I hate

the way that's necessary. And I hate micro doing actually, but like um I know

micro doing actually, but like um I know it works. I just feel like they're

it works. I just feel like they're rebranding it away from the experience

rebranding it away from the experience that that it's like, you know, there

that that it's like, you know, there there it's like it it's like what what

there it's like it it's like what what this culture needs is a right of

this culture needs is a right of passage, right? Is ritual. We all of our

passage, right? Is ritual. We all of our rituals have become routine, which is to

rituals have become routine, which is to say all of the meaning is extracted from

say all of the meaning is extracted from them. And so one thing psychedelics do

them. And so one thing psychedelics do is provide a risk situ an ordeal

is provide a risk situ an ordeal basically, right? or you a trip, you go

basically, right? or you a trip, you go through something and you come out the

through something and you come out the other side and you try to make sense of

other side and you try to make sense of it. If you take a dose so small as to,

it. If you take a dose so small as to, you know, bypass the experience, it may

you know, bypass the experience, it may work. It does work. It's great, but

work. It does work. It's great, but that's just taking a pill. That that

that's just taking a pill. That that that's not true. To me, the psychedelic

that's not true. To me, the psychedelic part is the experience, not the

part is the experience, not the substance, right? And and so I I just

substance, right? And and so I I just worry and Terrence McKenna talked about

worry and Terrence McKenna talked about this that like they'll dilute it so much

this that like they'll dilute it so much that it'll lose all of its meaning and

that it'll lose all of its meaning and big pharma gets its hand on it and and

big pharma gets its hand on it and and and all of the sudden 50 years from now

and all of the sudden 50 years from now nobody nobody understands that you know

nobody nobody understands that you know I I just maybe that's gatekeeping but I

I I just maybe that's gatekeeping but I I I

I I >> I don't think it's gatekeeping. I think

>> I don't think it's gatekeeping. I think taking a psychedelic can be as they say

taking a psychedelic can be as they say taking an elevator to the top of Mount

taking an elevator to the top of Mount Everest. Yeah, forget who had said that,

Everest. Yeah, forget who had said that, but you get all this insights, but you

but you get all this insights, but you might not be prepared for those insights

might not be prepared for those insights either. If someone's not a narcissist or

either. If someone's not a narcissist or borderline, whatever, you might not be

borderline, whatever, you might not be prepared to hear it. And it's similar to

prepared to hear it. And it's similar to what you were saying about when someone

what you were saying about when someone is on an SSRI or SNRI, you might get

is on an SSRI or SNRI, you might get some temporary physical relief, but are

some temporary physical relief, but are you able to understand, okay, what do I

you able to understand, okay, what do I need to do moving forward here? I just

need to do moving forward here? I just bypass something to make me more

bypass something to make me more productive. I think that cuts to the

productive. I think that cuts to the core of like mental health healing, if

core of like mental health healing, if we're going to call it that, which is is

we're going to call it that, which is is it about just manipulating brain

it about just manipulating brain chemistry or or manipulating the

chemistry or or manipulating the physical to yield the kind of like just

physical to yield the kind of like just just bypass how we might get there, you

just bypass how we might get there, you know? And again, it's not this isn't

know? And again, it's not this isn't meant to judge, but to kind of observe

meant to judge, but to kind of observe and and look at. And I think to me

and and look at. And I think to me um we do lose something in those in

um we do lose something in those in those situations that that it's not to

those situations that that it's not to say don't do them or that they don't

say don't do them or that they don't help. They absolutely do. But it's it's

help. They absolutely do. But it's it's you know it's it it's bypassing the

you know it's it it's bypassing the experiential kind of component of of

experiential kind of component of of truly getting our minds different right

truly getting our minds different right of doing the work to kind of

of doing the work to kind of reconstruct the neuropathways. I mean,

reconstruct the neuropathways. I mean, the the the problem again, I think, goes

the the the problem again, I think, goes back to our culture, which doesn't give

back to our culture, which doesn't give us the time, you know, we have to go

us the time, you know, we have to go back to work. We have to, you know, we

back to work. We have to, you know, we have all of these things that are going

have all of these things that are going on that we don't we don't really have

on that we don't we don't really have the time to kind of exit society and and

the time to kind of exit society and and and and and really work on this stuff.

and and and really work on this stuff. Um, and ultimately, I think it's just

Um, and ultimately, I think it's just kind of sad, you know,

kind of sad, you know, >> right? I mean, people there's a big

>> right? I mean, people there's a big difference between seeing it as a

difference between seeing it as a medicine and then seeing it as a

medicine and then seeing it as a recreational drug or seeing it as with

recreational drug or seeing it as with an intent to have a spiritual

an intent to have a spiritual experience. A lot of people are just

experience. A lot of people are just doing them as a recreational experience.

doing them as a recreational experience. >> Yeah. Yeah. I mean, and and again, like

>> Yeah. Yeah. I mean, and and again, like I don't people should do what makes them

I don't people should do what makes them happy, you know? And I think there's

happy, you know? And I think there's always a little bit of a component of

always a little bit of a component of like like with them of glimpsing

like like with them of glimpsing something different, right? like like

something different, right? like like even in recreational use. But again,

even in recreational use. But again, it's it's like to me it's about respect.

it's it's like to me it's about respect. Are we respecting that these are

Are we respecting that these are substances in various forms that have

substances in various forms that have been part of the human experience

been part of the human experience forever basically? You know, like I mean

forever basically? You know, like I mean >> um there were studies that showed the

>> um there were studies that showed the early Christian Eucharist had erggo root

early Christian Eucharist had erggo root in it, which is where LSD comes from,

in it, which is where LSD comes from, you know. It's I always kind of laugh at

you know. It's I always kind of laugh at that where like they decided, oh, we

that where like they decided, oh, we can't give you a real glimpse of God

can't give you a real glimpse of God here. take this alcohol now, you know,

here. take this alcohol now, you know, we'll switch it out because we want to

we'll switch it out because we want to be the middleman between the divine and

be the middleman between the divine and and and and the mundane.

and and and the mundane. >> Um, but I think acknowledging

>> Um, but I think acknowledging that this is a universal human

that this is a universal human experience, you know, that that the

experience, you know, that that the psychedel I I mean I I don't think it's

psychedel I I mean I I don't think it's as simple as like the stoned ape theory

as simple as like the stoned ape theory that like apes ate mushrooms and then

that like apes ate mushrooms and then all of the sudden consciousness is born.

all of the sudden consciousness is born. But I do think there's some truth to

But I do think there's some truth to that. I I I do believe there's some role

that. I I I do believe there's some role that they played in in advancement. You

that they played in in advancement. You know, I I I don't

know, I I I don't >> probably contributed a very a little bit

>> probably contributed a very a little bit >> a little bit. I mean, they existed the

>> a little bit. I mean, they existed the the primates were eating every, you

the primates were eating every, you know, I mean, I I I it's it's certainly

know, I mean, I I I it's it's certainly not as simple as causality, but um

not as simple as causality, but um >> you know what, and this leads directly

>> you know what, and this leads directly into something you said that I also

into something you said that I also really loved, which is you said our

really loved, which is you said our cultural mythology is off. And you said

cultural mythology is off. And you said many of us think we're Luke Skywalker,

many of us think we're Luke Skywalker, but we're really a Stormtrooper.

but we're really a Stormtrooper. >> We're a nation of Stormtroopers who

>> We're a nation of Stormtroopers who think we're Luke Skywalker. Yeah. I

think we're Luke Skywalker. Yeah. I mean, it's all about perspective and who

mean, it's all about perspective and who we identify with the stories, like cops,

we identify with the stories, like cops, like with Punisher stickers, you know,

like with Punisher stickers, you know, you know, like

you know, like people think that they're seeing outside

people think that they're seeing outside of the Matrix as they're like walking

of the Matrix as they're like walking face first into it, you know, and so

face first into it, you know, and so it's it's it's like I mean, this is

it's it's it's like I mean, this is really what my background was studying

really what my background was studying was like my my degree was called

was like my my degree was called literature, culture, and media. And so,

literature, culture, and media. And so, it's about literature studies, film

it's about literature studies, film studies, media studies, you know, the

studies, media studies, you know, the expressions of human consciousness and

expressions of human consciousness and stories. I mean, Joseph Campbell is

stories. I mean, Joseph Campbell is wonderful for this. Um, the the power

wonderful for this. Um, the the power like a a culture is defined by its

like a a culture is defined by its mythology in a certain way, right? And

mythology in a certain way, right? And so we are lacking a coherent mythology

so we are lacking a coherent mythology that accurately represents who we are,

that accurately represents who we are, you know? I I think um and not not

you know? I I think um and not not totally. I mean, I I I I think,

totally. I mean, I I I I think, you know, like like like from one

you know, like like like from one perspective, religion could be kind of

perspective, religion could be kind of seen as as as cultural mythology. Um,

seen as as as cultural mythology. Um, and I think we have these old religious

and I think we have these old religious stories that I'm not sure really

stories that I'm not sure really serve the modern era, you know, that

serve the modern era, you know, that serve the modern experience.

serve the modern experience. But it's also kind of cultural

But it's also kind of cultural illiteracy where we're not we're not

illiteracy where we're not we're not taught to interpret stories. We're not

taught to interpret stories. We're not taught to kind of critically think. Um,

taught to kind of critically think. Um, we're we're and really like the human

we're we're and really like the human mind thinks in symbols and stories. And

mind thinks in symbols and stories. And so the stories we tell ourselves about

so the stories we tell ourselves about ourselves, just like in an individual,

ourselves, just like in an individual, is true in the cultural. And I I really

is true in the cultural. And I I really think if we boil down what's happening

think if we boil down what's happening in this country,

in this country, it a lot of it has to do with what

it a lot of it has to do with what stories we're telling ourselves, right?

stories we're telling ourselves, right? Are are we this nation of patriots and

Are are we this nation of patriots and and you know the kind of that uncritical

and you know the kind of that uncritical look at at our history or are we kind of

look at at our history or are we kind of able to kind of look from different

able to kind of look from different perspectives where our founding story

perspectives where our founding story from our perspective is one thing from

from our perspective is one thing from the perspective of the Native Americans

the perspective of the Native Americans would be something totally different and

would be something totally different and one doesn't necessarily cancel out the

one doesn't necessarily cancel out the other it just recognizes that reality

other it just recognizes that reality includes all of them and I think there's

includes all of them and I think there's a cultural tyranny around the

a cultural tyranny around the interpretation of our past that borders

interpretation of our past that borders on kind of fantasy, you know, and and

on kind of fantasy, you know, and and and that a lot of elements of our

and that a lot of elements of our culture are clinging to that story

culture are clinging to that story because they identify with it. It

because they identify with it. It creates their identity. And I'm not

creates their identity. And I'm not judging that at all. That that's how

judging that at all. That that's how human beings are made up. other parts of

human beings are made up. other parts of the culture want to see from from a

the culture want to see from from a couple different perspectives and maybe

couple different perspectives and maybe do a little shadow work of looking at

do a little shadow work of looking at the things we've repressed about our

the things we've repressed about our collective history, you know, and coming

collective history, you know, and coming into maybe a a more expansive awareness

into maybe a a more expansive awareness of of again like light and dark at the

of of again like light and dark at the same time, poison and medicine, just how

same time, poison and medicine, just how and when. Um, and and I think that's at

and when. Um, and and I think that's at the root of our dysfunction as as a

the root of our dysfunction as as a shared, you know, the United States is a

shared, you know, the United States is a shared culture that's made up of many

shared culture that's made up of many other cultures. You know, how do we how

other cultures. You know, how do we how do we how do we have a cohesive

do we how do we have a cohesive narrative when we all came from

narrative when we all came from somewhere else? You know, we all we you

somewhere else? You know, we all we you know, I think that's one of the cruxes

know, I think that's one of the cruxes of of modern existence is how do we

of of modern existence is how do we create like a global culture while

create like a global culture while preserving the individual beauty of all

preserving the individual beauty of all the cultures that make it up, right? How

the cultures that make it up, right? How do how do we see other cultures through

do how do we see other cultures through the lens of of curiosity instead of

the lens of of curiosity instead of through the lens of being threatened by

through the lens of being threatened by them? You know, and I think it's it's

them? You know, and I think it's it's it's not as simple as like our political

it's not as simple as like our political [ __ ] makes it seem. It's actually

[ __ ] makes it seem. It's actually about human nature, the fear of the

about human nature, the fear of the other that is that is deeply ingrained

other that is that is deeply ingrained in human beings, you know, and and and

in human beings, you know, and and and and how our stories

and how our stories um can help lead the way. But we have to

um can help lead the way. But we have to learn to interpret them. You have to

learn to interpret them. You have to learn to identify with with the elements

learn to identify with with the elements of the stories that Stormtrooper Luke

of the stories that Stormtrooper Luke Skywalker thinks funny. But yeah,

Skywalker thinks funny. But yeah, >> and Melting Pots,

>> and Melting Pots, >> we haven't seen them like this is new.

>> we haven't seen them like this is new. This is a relatively new thing. So,

This is a relatively new thing. So, we're we're learning on the fly here.

we're we're learning on the fly here. And

And >> are there any civilizations or cultures

>> are there any civilizations or cultures that you think kind of got it right

that you think kind of got it right >> or close to right? No, not that I I mean

>> or close to right? No, not that I I mean I I think like we

I I think like we we run the risk of like simplicity when

we run the risk of like simplicity when we kind of idealize this culture or that

we kind of idealize this culture or that culture when all cultures come with

culture when all cultures come with problems. I don't think there's been a

problems. I don't think there's been a utopia. I mean maybe you you know maybe

utopia. I mean maybe you you know maybe some small culture somewhere that that

some small culture somewhere that that you know like that but but these large

you know like that but but these large scale civilizations

scale civilizations um all come with the variable and and

um all come with the variable and and the kind of like

the kind of like um wild card of of humans and human

um wild card of of humans and human behavior and and and and human you know

behavior and and and and human you know I I don't I I don't know what human

I I don't I I don't know what human nature is you know but I do know that we

nature is you know but I do know that we we have a lot of conflict baked into it

we have a lot of conflict baked into it you know that that like we have a lot of

you know that that like we have a lot of evolutionary trauma in ourselves, you

evolutionary trauma in ourselves, you know. Um, and I think

all cultures all they can do is strive to be better than what's come before.

to be better than what's come before. You know, it's like there's a Hemingway

You know, it's like there's a Hemingway quote like you're not in competition

quote like you're not in competition with somebody else. You're in

with somebody else. You're in competition with who you were yesterday.

competition with who you were yesterday. You know, and it's kind of like that on

You know, and it's kind of like that on a on a social scale that like we should

a on a social scale that like we should be learning from the past and you know,

be learning from the past and you know, like Young talks about like life as like

like Young talks about like life as like a Fibonacci spiral where we kind of keep

a Fibonacci spiral where we kind of keep coming across these same situations but

coming across these same situations but hopefully with a little bit of expanded

hopefully with a little bit of expanded consciousness each time. I kind of look

consciousness each time. I kind of look at that like humans. Like,

at that like humans. Like, you know, we keep coming back to these

you know, we keep coming back to these times of social upheaval and and and

times of social upheaval and and and kind of cultural

kind of cultural trauma. And this time around, I think

trauma. And this time around, I think we're failing to learn from the last

we're failing to learn from the last time around that that we've kind of like

time around that that we've kind of like taken a lot of the wrong messages. We've

taken a lot of the wrong messages. We've told ourselves the wrong stories, and so

told ourselves the wrong stories, and so we're repeating these things. Um, and we

we're repeating these things. Um, and we don't have to be, you know, that that I

don't have to be, you know, that that I mean, a lot of it is war, you know, is

mean, a lot of it is war, you know, is is violence. Um,

is violence. Um, but

but I I think humans evolve at a much slower

I I think humans evolve at a much slower pace than we think we do. You know, the

pace than we think we do. You know, the wrapping paper changes. We get smarter

wrapping paper changes. We get smarter in certain ways, but like I we don't

in certain ways, but like I we don't change as much as we think we do, you

change as much as we think we do, you know. Um, this whole talk of like

know. Um, this whole talk of like collective awakenings, how do we wake

collective awakenings, how do we wake everybody up? That's part of the

everybody up? That's part of the problem. people wake up individually,

problem. people wake up individually, you know, people you you can't force

you know, people you you can't force force enlightenment on people. You can't

force enlightenment on people. You can't force new awareness on people. You can

force new awareness on people. You can only,

only, you know, inhabit it or or or or try to

you know, inhabit it or or or or try to like talk about it. But ultimately, um,

like talk about it. But ultimately, um, I mean, I I don't want to get too doom

I mean, I I don't want to get too doom and gloom, but like I feel like we're

and gloom, but like I feel like we're kind of in like a new dark ages in a

kind of in like a new dark ages in a certain way that like we've got all this

certain way that like we've got all this knowledge, but we've we've we we've had

knowledge, but we've we've we we've had it taken from us kind of where our

it taken from us kind of where our education systems have failed us, our

education systems have failed us, our political systems have largely failed us

political systems have largely failed us um as a whole. You know, I think when we

um as a whole. You know, I think when we see these things through the lens of

see these things through the lens of partisan politics, we kind of miss the

partisan politics, we kind of miss the picture. Um that it's it's a collective

picture. Um that it's it's a collective thing. Um

thing. Um but I also think um

but I also think um we have still also come a long way. It's

we have still also come a long way. It's it's again it's never like one or the

it's again it's never like one or the other. It's it's kind of just like

other. It's it's kind of just like looking at it

looking at it um

um critically and and and holding human

critically and and and holding human beings you you know I mean as we sit on

beings you you know I mean as we sit on the dawning of the AI age I just

the dawning of the AI age I just question whether we have the

question whether we have the responsibility to wield this technology

responsibility to wield this technology responsibly whether we whether we know

responsibly whether we whether we know what we're actually doing or whether

what we're actually doing or whether profit motive has blinded everybody to

profit motive has blinded everybody to kind of open the ultimate Pandora's box

kind of open the ultimate Pandora's box that like you know um I I I think in in

that like you know um I I I think in in a lot of ways like Christopher Nolan's

a lot of ways like Christopher Nolan's Oenheimer you know was about AI in a

Oenheimer you know was about AI in a certain way that AI is like the new

certain way that AI is like the new nuclear in in a way that it's like

nuclear in in a way that it's like >> oh interesting

>> oh interesting >> this technology that will define the

>> this technology that will define the coming like epoch and there will be good

coming like epoch and there will be good uses for it and there will be bad uses

uses for it and there will be bad uses for it and and and much like when the

for it and and and much like when the Manhattan project lit off the first nuke

Manhattan project lit off the first nuke they didn't know whether it would start

they didn't know whether it would start a chain reaction that would engulf the

a chain reaction that would engulf the world in flames they they literally

world in flames they they literally didn't know and so that's where we're at

didn't know and so that's where we're at wi with AI and I I just you know I think

wi with AI and I I just you know I think I just question

I just question humans ability to kind of steward these

humans ability to kind of steward these types of of technologies, you know.

types of of technologies, you know. >> I mean, I think one part of it is people

>> I mean, I think one part of it is people have different versions of waking up.

have different versions of waking up. >> People say, "How do we wake someone up?"

>> People say, "How do we wake someone up?" Well,

Well, >> there's a bunch of different versions of

>> there's a bunch of different versions of what people consider waking up. That's

what people consider waking up. That's one thing to think about there. And then

one thing to think about there. And then I guess you would say more empathy and

I guess you would say more empathy and more emotional safety would be a good

more emotional safety would be a good magic wand to try to get

magic wand to try to get >> the greater good needs to re-enter the

>> the greater good needs to re-enter the chat in a certain way where you you you

chat in a certain way where you you you know we are such a profit driven culture

know we are such a profit driven culture where if it makes money it goes. I mean,

where if it makes money it goes. I mean, I I think a lot of the experience we're

I I think a lot of the experience we're having of the dysfunction and the chaos

having of the dysfunction and the chaos now is a result of the internet, right?

now is a result of the internet, right? The way information disseminates changes

The way information disseminates changes reality, right? When you look at like

reality, right? When you look at like the printing press led to the witches

the printing press led to the witches thing, right? Where a bunch of pe 40,000

thing, right? Where a bunch of pe 40,000 people were killed for being a witch

people were killed for being a witch because information began to move around

because information began to move around faster. you look at like the rise of of

faster. you look at like the rise of of the Nazis in Germany and and it's

the Nazis in Germany and and it's inherently intertwined with radio and

inherently intertwined with radio and film technology, right? And the way that

film technology, right? And the way that the information system changed. And then

the information system changed. And then you look at the internet where

you look at the internet where it's like the god tier communicative

it's like the god tier communicative tech. It combines the printing press,

tech. It combines the printing press, the television, the radio, you know,

the television, the radio, you know, it's all of those things in one and

it's all of those things in one and information is beaming around the world

information is beaming around the world at at light speed. Um and it's not only

at at light speed. Um and it's not only changed what people think but how they

changed what people think but how they think and so the chaos that insume

think and so the chaos that insume assumes comes like conspiracy theory

assumes comes like conspiracy theory rises with the more information right a

rises with the more information right a human mind takes in all of this

human mind takes in all of this information and has to like in order to

information and has to like in order to feel safe has to come up with some sort

feel safe has to come up with some sort of narrative to make it all make sense

of narrative to make it all make sense well none of it makes sense right we're

well none of it makes sense right we're we're not we're we're given all of this

we're not we're we're given all of this information without actual like guidance

information without actual like guidance and so it's it's not surprising that

and so it's it's not surprising that people believe crazy [ __ ] Right. It's

people believe crazy [ __ ] Right. It's literally the human mind trying to make

literally the human mind trying to make sense of things that don't make sense.

sense of things that don't make sense. And so,

And so, >> you know,

>> you know, >> I've heard people replace the cultural

>> I've heard people replace the cultural mythology with conspiracy theories as a

mythology with conspiracy theories as a way to

way to >> try to have some meaning or make sense

>> try to have some meaning or make sense out of it.

out of it. >> Well, right. There's all these things

>> Well, right. There's all these things happening. People the mind has to the

happening. People the mind has to the way we've evolved, we think in stories,

way we've evolved, we think in stories, right? We think in narrative form. So

right? We think in narrative form. So the more information you give people,

the more information you give people, the the more they need to make sense of,

the the more they need to make sense of, you know, you combine that with the

you know, you combine that with the American education system that hasn't

American education system that hasn't exactly been churning out critical

exactly been churning out critical thought, you know, for the last like

thought, you know, for the last like forever. Um, and instead,

forever. Um, and instead, you know, I think teaches people what to

you know, I think teaches people what to think, not how to think. I mean, I'm I'm

think, not how to think. I mean, I'm I'm dumb. I think of like multiple choice

dumb. I think of like multiple choice questions, right? And like how does that

questions, right? And like how does that condition a person to engage with

condition a person to engage with information? Look at a data set and pick

information? Look at a data set and pick one. And the answer has to be within the

one. And the answer has to be within the data set. It's not critically thinking.

data set. It's not critically thinking. It's not it's not coming to con. And so

It's not it's not coming to con. And so then you give them the internet and it's

then you give them the internet and it's just this big data set. Well, the

just this big data set. Well, the answer's got to be somewhere, you know,

answer's got to be somewhere, you know, and it turns it into this kind of choose

and it turns it into this kind of choose your own reality thing. Um and and and

your own reality thing. Um and and and this is how you get to where we are is

this is how you get to where we are is is um

is um media literacy, discernment, the the

media literacy, discernment, the the understanding. I I think about this all

understanding. I I think about this all the time about how like when when when

the time about how like when when when when I was young, when you were young,

when I was young, when you were young, before the internet, it was about

before the internet, it was about curiosity. If I wanted to know

curiosity. If I wanted to know something, I had to seek out the

something, I had to seek out the information. You go to the library, you

information. You go to the library, you get an encyclopedia. There there was a

get an encyclopedia. There there was a fixed amount of information to seek out.

fixed amount of information to seek out. It's now about curation. The information

It's now about curation. The information is assaulting us all the time from our

is assaulting us all the time from our phones, most of it [ __ ] And so it

phones, most of it [ __ ] And so it it it goes from being curious,

it it goes from being curious, proactive, to being a curator,

proactive, to being a curator, defensive, right, where the information

defensive, right, where the information is coming at us so fast and furious. If

is coming at us so fast and furious. If we believe the wrong thing, we go down

we believe the wrong thing, we go down the wrong rabbit hole. We we we get

the wrong rabbit hole. We we we get lost. And and again, like I I I don't I

lost. And and again, like I I I don't I don't want to get into politics. People

don't want to get into politics. People make this about one political party or

make this about one political party or or the other. It's all of us. It it's

or the other. It's all of us. It it's literally all of us. This is a human

literally all of us. This is a human experiment of the internet, you know,

experiment of the internet, you know, like think of the volume of of

like think of the volume of of interpersonal interactions we're having,

interpersonal interactions we're having, the volume of information that we're

the volume of information that we're digesting. It it's so radically

digesting. It it's so radically different from even 40 years ago. Um

different from even 40 years ago. Um I think the human mind is struggling to

I think the human mind is struggling to keep up and and then you get the kids

keep up and and then you get the kids that are born with it, right? Where if

that are born with it, right? Where if you're born into a world with a certain

you're born into a world with a certain tech, you can never imagine the world

tech, you can never imagine the world without it. So they're they're they're

without it. So they're they're they're functionally different than we are, you

functionally different than we are, you know. I mean I I I Who's that guy?

know. I mean I I I Who's that guy? Jonathan hate I think he's doing a lot

Jonathan hate I think he's doing a lot of interesting work in how

of interesting work in how >> height

>> height >> height. Yeah. I mean like like like and

>> height. Yeah. I mean like like like and it all seems obvious, but it's like the

it all seems obvious, but it's like the way that social media and all of this

way that social media and all of this information is is is hurting the kids,

information is is is hurting the kids, right? It's it's of course it is like it

right? It's it's of course it is like it we're we're it's like

we're we're it's like they were brought up on this internet

they were brought up on this internet that the parents didn't understand,

that the parents didn't understand, right? And and so they're out there like

right? And and so they're out there like does does a does a kid born past like

does does a does a kid born past like 2008 like have they learned more from

2008 like have they learned more from their school or from their experience on

their school or from their experience on the internet? Like what's actually

the internet? Like what's actually shaping their understanding of the

shaping their understanding of the world, you know, and and and what's

world, you know, and and and what's shaping their self-esteem when it's not

shaping their self-esteem when it's not just like catty high school [ __ ]

just like catty high school [ __ ] It's that it never ends because you're

It's that it never ends because you're on social media, you know, like like

on social media, you know, like like like of course it's destroying their

like of course it's destroying their mental health. I hear that the the mo

mental health. I hear that the the mo the number one thing they want to do is

the number one thing they want to do is be a creator. And as somebody that

be a creator. And as somebody that exists online, no, that's not healthy.

exists online, no, that's not healthy. You know, like it it it's just not

You know, like it it it's just not healthy.

healthy. >> And that leads me into the last thing I

>> And that leads me into the last thing I wanted to talk to you about. How do we

wanted to talk to you about. How do we move forward with this creator and

move forward with this creator and follower relationship with people?

follower relationship with people? Because there's never been a

Because there's never been a relationship this intimate that people

relationship this intimate that people could have, right? Where people can

could have, right? Where people can stream,

stream, >> talk back and forth instantly. That was

>> talk back and forth instantly. That was never the way it was with radio. That

never the way it was with radio. That was never the way it was with movie

was never the way it was with movie stars. This is a very new thing.

stars. This is a very new thing. >> We are in a brave new world. And I think

>> We are in a brave new world. And I think we move forward with compassion and an

we move forward with compassion and an understanding that like

understanding that like >> our minds have been prayed upon, right?

>> our minds have been prayed upon, right? that that that

that that that this is these devices didn't have to be

this is these devices didn't have to be designed in the ways that they are and

designed in the ways that they are and they're hacking our brains. It's basic

they're hacking our brains. It's basic Pavlovian techniques basically like at

Pavlovian techniques basically like at the surface and even more deeper stuff.

the surface and even more deeper stuff. And so I think part of it is is

And so I think part of it is is recognizing what a transformational

recognizing what a transformational period we're in and approaching it with

period we're in and approaching it with with with compassion, right? like like

with with compassion, right? like like like internally like I said like I was

like internally like I said like I was talking to you earlier where you know I

talking to you earlier where you know I was working with somebody who was saying

was working with somebody who was saying she was addicted to her phone and I and

she was addicted to her phone and I and I tried I I tried I'm sure she is but I

I tried I I tried I'm sure she is but I tried to explain that we all kind of are

tried to explain that we all kind of are that we're being used as guinea pigs. Um

that we're being used as guinea pigs. Um and we have to it it's not to say like

and we have to it it's not to say like throw your phone in the ocean, right? Or

throw your phone in the ocean, right? Or or or like like disengage completely.

or or like like disengage completely. That's not really realistic. This is the

That's not really realistic. This is the world we live in. But it's to give

world we live in. But it's to give ourselves

ourselves compassion and and and and again like

compassion and and and and again like resist the pathizing of things that are

resist the pathizing of things that are being done to us, right? Like Johan

being done to us, right? Like Johan Hari, I was telling you about Johan Hari

Hari, I was telling you about Johan Hari wrote three books. They're all

wrote three books. They're all brilliant. Chasing the scream about the

brilliant. Chasing the scream about the drug war and addiction, lost connections

drug war and addiction, lost connections about depression, but his latest one was

about depression, but his latest one was called Stolen Focus about the kind of

called Stolen Focus about the kind of attention economy and how our focus has

attention economy and how our focus has been stolen from us. And there's all

been stolen from us. And there's all these ways that technology has kind of

these ways that technology has kind of altered

altered our physiology, altered our minds, and

our physiology, altered our minds, and and it it's it's fighting a losing

and it it's it's fighting a losing battle to blame ourselves for it. It's

battle to blame ourselves for it. It's just to recognize we're living at at

just to recognize we're living at at this epoch shift. It's not like a

this epoch shift. It's not like a generational shift. It's a much more

generational shift. It's a much more consequential shift in in what it means

consequential shift in in what it means to be human. Um, and and to love, it

to be human. Um, and and to love, it sounds so stupid, but to love ourselves

sounds so stupid, but to love ourselves through it, to not not get bogged down

through it, to not not get bogged down in all of the doom and gloom and all of

in all of the doom and gloom and all of the confusion and all of the

the confusion and all of the uncertainty,

uncertainty, but to strengthen, you know, our ability

but to strengthen, you know, our ability to to to love. Again, I I the stuff just

to to to love. Again, I I the stuff just comes out of me and it sounds stupid,

comes out of me and it sounds stupid, but it's like I I really believe that

but it's like I I really believe that like

like we need more empathy and compassion and

we need more empathy and compassion and that goes all across the board, you

that goes all across the board, you know, that that it's about understanding

know, that that it's about understanding the complexity of life, the complexity

the complexity of life, the complexity of existing in this transformational

of existing in this transformational world and,

world and, you know, touching grass. I think that's

you know, touching grass. I think that's one of the funniest things. When when I

one of the funniest things. When when I started online, they started to tell me

started online, they started to tell me to touch grass. I'm like, what the [ __ ]

to touch grass. I'm like, what the [ __ ] does that mean? But I think it's kind of

does that mean? But I think it's kind of true like like like keeping a foot in

true like like like keeping a foot in the real world, keeping a foot in in

the real world, keeping a foot in in like you know it sounds dumb but like I

like you know it sounds dumb but like I go to a coffee shop every morning you

go to a coffee shop every morning you know it's right down the street I get my

know it's right down the street I get my coffee I try to talk to people you know

coffee I try to talk to people you know or smile at them like like just trying

or smile at them like like just trying to kind of um preserve

to kind of um preserve simple human interactions you know

simple human interactions you know because I think like the the in this

because I think like the the in this sick irony it's like the online space is

sick irony it's like the online space is shaping in the offline space instead of

shaping in the offline space instead of the other way around. And the way people

the other way around. And the way people are interacting online, you know, has

are interacting online, you know, has disconnected us offline. And we have to

disconnected us offline. And we have to kind of be aware of that and put a put

kind of be aware of that and put a put put aside some of our differences that

put aside some of our differences that exist online and simply go have a

exist online and simply go have a conversation with somebody, you know,

conversation with somebody, you know, like keep ourselves open to to to to

like keep ourselves open to to to to being human,

being human, >> right? And that's what you were saying

>> right? And that's what you were saying with Josh too is that or I don't know if

with Josh too is that or I don't know if you said this with him but it's people

you said this with him but it's people they don't have to meet each other in

they don't have to meet each other in person anymore that you meet connections

person anymore that you meet connections online. Oh

online. Oh >> I don't need you to come to this party

>> I don't need you to come to this party to meet this new person. No, I can just

to meet this new person. No, I can just give you their socials and then that's

give you their socials and then that's it. And and he was mentioning about how

it. And and he was mentioning about how >> he doesn't always want to follow people

>> he doesn't always want to follow people that he's friends with because he wants

that he's friends with because he wants to be able to catch up with them in

to be able to catch up with them in person. And I think that's a cool thing

person. And I think that's a cool thing too. I so I've talked about this for a

too. I so I've talked about this for a long time. It's like it's like remember

long time. It's like it's like remember when we'd come home from Thanksgiving

when we'd come home from Thanksgiving for Thanksgiving like from college or

for Thanksgiving like from college or whatever and like everybody meet up at

whatever and like everybody meet up at the bar and it'd be this great thing

the bar and it'd be this great thing because you hadn't seen anybody, right?

because you hadn't seen anybody, right? It's like oh my god, I haven't seen you

It's like oh my god, I haven't seen you in like a year or two years or three

in like a year or two years or three years. Now we know what that person had

years. Now we know what that person had for [ __ ] lunch yesterday. We know

for [ __ ] lunch yesterday. We know what dumb political thing he said two

what dumb political thing he said two days ago. And there there's all of this

days ago. And there there's all of this [ __ ] like like clouding our ability

[ __ ] like like clouding our ability simply to coexist again, right? and and

simply to coexist again, right? and and and yeah, it's like I I love parasocial

and yeah, it's like I I love parasocial relationships on a certain level, the

relationships on a certain level, the ability to like meet people like you, to

ability to like meet people like you, to share experiences, to meet people that

share experiences, to meet people that are like us. But I also understand it's

are like us. But I also understand it's not the same as if you and I like like I

not the same as if you and I like like I met you at the coffee shop and then we

met you at the coffee shop and then we struck up a conversation and every

struck up a conversation and every morning we'd sit and we'd have our

morning we'd sit and we'd have our breakfast burritos and drink our coffee

breakfast burritos and drink our coffee and we'd just talk like humans, you

and we'd just talk like humans, you know? It it's I mean I had a friend like

know? It it's I mean I had a friend like that that the like this older black guy

that that the like this older black guy like we'd have nothing in common but

like we'd have nothing in common but this was a couple years ago. I'd go in

this was a couple years ago. I'd go in there and I used to go in much earlier

there and I used to go in much earlier and we'd just sit and we'd talk about

and we'd just sit and we'd talk about anything, you know, and it was like this

anything, you know, and it was like this kind of odd couple, but to me that that

kind of odd couple, but to me that that that's where it is is just like, you

that's where it is is just like, you know, I I I mean, I think, you know,

know, I I I mean, I think, you know, talking about quitting drinking, I think

talking about quitting drinking, I think that's the thing I miss most about

that's the thing I miss most about drinking is sitting on a bar stool and

drinking is sitting on a bar stool and and just talking to people, you know,

and just talking to people, you know, with a little bit of the the loose

with a little bit of the the loose tongue that comes with, you know, a

tongue that comes with, you know, a glass of scotch or two. Um, and and I

glass of scotch or two. Um, and and I I've really genuinely missed that. And I

I've really genuinely missed that. And I think in a certain way when I started

think in a certain way when I started TikTok, it was me just talking like that

TikTok, it was me just talking like that and I just wanted to be less alone cuz I

and I just wanted to be less alone cuz I was in this period of isolation and

was in this period of isolation and healing and I had gone away from my

healing and I had gone away from my family. But after a couple years, you

family. But after a couple years, you realize like

realize like it's just different. It doesn't have to

it's just different. It doesn't have to be better or worse. It's just not a

be better or worse. It's just not a substitute, you know. And that for those

substitute, you know. And that for those of us that that grew up, you know, I I I

of us that that grew up, you know, I I I think for those of us in our 40s, we're

think for those of us in our 40s, we're kind of straddling these two worlds, you

kind of straddling these two worlds, you know, that that we we we we grew up in

know, that that we we we we grew up in one world and then I went to college and

one world and then I went to college and they gave me this thing called an email,

they gave me this thing called an email, you know, like and then all of a sudden

you know, like and then all of a sudden our adulthood has been in this

our adulthood has been in this completely different world. and and you

completely different world. and and you know how disorienting that is, but also

know how disorienting that is, but also it it's caused to to just be aware of

it it's caused to to just be aware of that and and and again it to me it's

that and and and again it to me it's it's it's all

it's it's all especially for the children of

especially for the children of narcissists it's all about how we treat

narcissists it's all about how we treat ourselves internally. Our internal our

ourselves internally. Our internal our internal relationship to self is

internal relationship to self is reflected in our external relationships

reflected in our external relationships with other people, right? And so we have

with other people, right? And so we have to we have to take care of this self

to we have to take care of this self dialogue. How we're talking to

dialogue. How we're talking to ourselves, h how h how we're you know

ourselves, h how h how we're you know I'm constantly telling my clients like

I'm constantly telling my clients like you have to give the compassion you so

you have to give the compassion you so freely give to other people to yourself

freely give to other people to yourself right you because it it it's really

right you because it it it's really important that that social media a lot

important that that social media a lot of the online experience

of the online experience you know isn't really great for that.

you know isn't really great for that. We're comparing ourselves to far too

We're comparing ourselves to far too many people. We're seeing all of these

many people. We're seeing all of these different ways of being, which on one

different ways of being, which on one level is great, but on another level, we

level is great, but on another level, we can just use it to tell ourselves that

can just use it to tell ourselves that we're not enough, you know, because this

we're not enough, you know, because this guy's got that car and this guy's doing

guy's got that car and this guy's doing this when how do we know? A lot of these

this when how do we know? A lot of these people are are just like creating a a

people are are just like creating a a life online that doesn't exist in

life online that doesn't exist in reality.

reality. >> I think what you said about having just

>> I think what you said about having just the acquaintance friends that maybe you

the acquaintance friends that maybe you didn't have much in common with, that's

didn't have much in common with, that's been one of the bigger casualties of the

been one of the bigger casualties of the social media era. And I think for you,

social media era. And I think for you, you're probably an old souls kind of

you're probably an old souls kind of drinker where you would go and probably

drinker where you would go and probably have all these deep conversations at the

have all these deep conversations at the bar, especially a few drinks deep, etc.

bar, especially a few drinks deep, etc. >> I could totally see.

>> I could totally see. >> Yeah, there was the professor phase,

>> Yeah, there was the professor phase, which which was the good phase. After

which which was the good phase. After the professor phase, uh,

the professor phase, uh, darkness swirling, you you know, but

darkness swirling, you you know, but yeah, but yeah, it was like I used to

yeah, but yeah, it was like I used to work at this bar and it was called the

work at this bar and it was called the Nomad and it was like a small bar, but

Nomad and it was like a small bar, but it was like a soccer bar, right? I don't

it was like a soccer bar, right? I don't really like soccer, but it would draw

really like soccer, but it would draw like because it played soccer games

like because it played soccer games early in the mornings and like they'd

early in the mornings and like they'd get the street cut off for World Cup. It

get the street cut off for World Cup. It drew all sorts of different people,

drew all sorts of different people, right? Like it was like truly like an

right? Like it was like truly like an international like group of people that

international like group of people that would come in. You know, Brazil's

would come in. You know, Brazil's playing, there'd be a bunch of

playing, there'd be a bunch of Brazilians and just sitting there and

Brazilians and just sitting there and talking to PE like I I I really miss

talking to PE like I I I really miss that, you know. But

that, you know. But >> I believe

>> I believe >> I believe

>> I believe >> it's funny though. But it's it's like I

>> it's funny though. But it's it's like I I I think for me like that decision to

I I think for me like that decision to quit drinking was the thing that kind of

quit drinking was the thing that kind of like that small decision which probably

like that small decision which probably wasn't that small, but it it really was

wasn't that small, but it it really was the beginning of the transformation for

the beginning of the transformation for me in into who I am now was kind of

me in into who I am now was kind of giving up the crutches that I had that

giving up the crutches that I had that were kind of preventing me from dealing

were kind of preventing me from dealing with my trauma. You know, my my

with my trauma. You know, my my therapist at the time framed it as like,

therapist at the time framed it as like, look, you're you have CPTTSD, which is

look, you're you have CPTTSD, which is like a broken leg, and you're doing so

like a broken leg, and you're doing so many drugs and drinking so much that

many drugs and drinking so much that it's like you're just kicking your

it's like you're just kicking your broken leg every day over and over and

broken leg every day over and over and over and over, and if you want to fix

over and over, and if you want to fix that broken leg, you got to stop kicking

that broken leg, you got to stop kicking it. Um, and he was right, you know? I

it. Um, and he was right, you know? I mean, I

mean, I >> mean, you wouldn't be who you are today

>> mean, you wouldn't be who you are today without that phase.

without that phase. >> No, not at all. Not at all. I mean, I I

>> No, not at all. Not at all. I mean, I I I I again, like I love all those parts

I I again, like I love all those parts of me. That part was a really

of me. That part was a really um complicated time, you know, couple

um complicated time, you know, couple couple decades, but it was like um I had

couple decades, but it was like um I had a lot of growing up to do, you know, I

a lot of growing up to do, you know, I had a lot of I had a lot of kind of

had a lot of I had a lot of kind of coping mechanisms to shed, you know, in

coping mechanisms to shed, you know, in order to kind of really get at the

order to kind of really get at the trauma. I mean, I think it wasn't until

trauma. I mean, I think it wasn't until a year in sobriety that I really started

a year in sobriety that I really started understanding

understanding how affecting the trauma had been, you

how affecting the trauma had been, you know, cuz it's like I think a lot of us

know, cuz it's like I think a lot of us feel that where we take that one thing

feel that where we take that one thing away and there's this kind of euphoric

away and there's this kind of euphoric push of, oh my god, I'm you know, you're

push of, oh my god, I'm you know, you're going to meet and you're getting your

going to meet and you're getting your little chips and it's like, oh my god,

little chips and it's like, oh my god, I'm really doing something and you are

I'm really doing something and you are doing something, but ultimately it's

doing something, but ultimately it's like the pregame, right? It's just

like the pregame, right? It's just clearing the space to get to the trauma

clearing the space to get to the trauma stuff. Um,

stuff. Um, but no, I mean it's it's it's I I think

but no, I mean it's it's it's I I think seeing it all as

seeing it all as seeing our lives through the lens of of

seeing our lives through the lens of of acceptance really works as seeing it not

acceptance really works as seeing it not as having happened to us but having

as having happened to us but having just,

just, you know, been our lives and accepting

you know, been our lives and accepting that like there's always good, there's

that like there's always good, there's always bad and all we can do is try to

always bad and all we can do is try to grow, you know.

grow, you know. >> Absolutely. Now, do you have any other

>> Absolutely. Now, do you have any other closing thoughts you want to give to

closing thoughts you want to give to people? I think I've got it out there,

people? I think I've got it out there, you know. I just hope I didn't say

you know. I just hope I didn't say anything. I'm always worried. This is my

anything. I'm always worried. This is my only second podcast. I'm always worried

only second podcast. I'm always worried I say something stupid, you know.

I say something stupid, you know. >> Nah, you're good. Nothing stupid I could

>> Nah, you're good. Nothing stupid I could see.

see. >> Yeah.

>> Yeah. >> Nothing too outlandish or controversial.

>> Nothing too outlandish or controversial. >> No. I mean, the BPD, MPD stuff, I think

>> No. I mean, the BPD, MPD stuff, I think sometimes triggers people and rubs them

sometimes triggers people and rubs them a little bit the wrong way, but like,

a little bit the wrong way, but like, you know, I I I understand that. I

you know, I I I understand that. I there'll be people that like some of the

there'll be people that like some of the self-aware narcissists that are also

self-aware narcissists that are also claimed to be diagnosed as border lines.

claimed to be diagnosed as border lines. They might not like that which you had

They might not like that which you had said about that part than not being

said about that part than not being comorbid.

comorbid. >> But

>> But >> yeah, I know one of them specifically

>> yeah, I know one of them specifically that I don't really care for that that

that I don't really care for that that that builds himself as that. But yeah.

that builds himself as that. But yeah. >> Yeah. Um, you know, I mean, I I think

>> Yeah. Um, you know, I mean, I I think everybody's open to their own opinions,

everybody's open to their own opinions, you know, and I I think to me part of

you know, and I I think to me part of the problem with that whole crew is that

the problem with that whole crew is that they're just to me the concept of a

they're just to me the concept of a self-aware narcissist is a grandiose

self-aware narcissist is a grandiose false self, right? That that that

false self, right? That that that they're they're defining self-awareness

they're they're defining self-awareness as simply agreeing with what they're do.

as simply agreeing with what they're do. You know, I I I just I have a lot of

You know, I I I just I have a lot of problems with centering themselves and

problems with centering themselves and saying we're just narcissists trying to

saying we're just narcissists trying to get better. No narcissist gets better by

get better. No narcissist gets better by acquiring hundreds of thousands of

acquiring hundreds of thousands of social media followers. They get better

social media followers. They get better by going in a quiet room and listening

by going in a quiet room and listening to the people they've hurt and accepting

to the people they've hurt and accepting responsibility for their lives, not kind

responsibility for their lives, not kind of fetishizing the way that they abuse

of fetishizing the way that they abuse people. And I think far too often that's

people. And I think far too often that's what's going on. I mean, I always think

what's going on. I mean, I always think like if you've been abused by a

like if you've been abused by a narcissist, you'd probably be triggered

narcissist, you'd probably be triggered by those people. But um you know,

by those people. But um you know, there's

there's the internet's a weird place. I I you

the internet's a weird place. I I you know I I I don't I I I learned you know

know I I I don't I I I learned you know I got into beef with one of them early

I got into beef with one of them early on in my social media career and dealing

on in my social media career and dealing with their cult which I'll just call it

with their cult which I'll just call it a cult was really unpleasant and really

a cult was really unpleasant and really opened my eyes to the reality that like

opened my eyes to the reality that like um you know if you're taking

um you know if you're taking narcissist sides over victim side

narcissist sides over victim side there's something there's something

there's something there's something fishy in the in in the water you know.

fishy in the in in the water you know. >> Yeah. I mean, my issue with some of them

>> Yeah. I mean, my issue with some of them has been they seem to be more oriented

has been they seem to be more oriented towards image management of the disorder

towards image management of the disorder of narcissism

of narcissism >> as opposed to their own actual healing

>> as opposed to their own actual healing work and and fetishizing how they abuse

work and and fetishizing how they abuse others and mistreat them. That's a good

others and mistreat them. That's a good way of putting it. A lot of times they

way of putting it. A lot of times they have this fancy

have this fancy >> way of dressing it up. I just feel this

>> way of dressing it up. I just feel this awful thing about myself or I just can't

awful thing about myself or I just can't help myself but to have this hierarchal

help myself but to have this hierarchal thinking or or something along those

thinking or or something along those lines where it almost seems like a

lines where it almost seems like a victim routine.

victim routine. >> It to me it muddies the waters a little

>> It to me it muddies the waters a little bit. I mean I see

bit. I mean I see >> narcissism as a disorder in their

>> narcissism as a disorder in their perspective and therefore you you know I

perspective and therefore you you know I I just I just I guess maybe it's my own

I just I just I guess maybe it's my own trauma. I just don't find that to be a

trauma. I just don't find that to be a safe um space, you know, that that if

safe um space, you know, that that if there's narcissists like lording their

there's narcissists like lording their online personas and online followings

online personas and online followings over actual victims, that that that

over actual victims, that that that seems off to me, you know,

seems off to me, you know, >> caution, I think, would be

>> caution, I think, would be >> Yeah.

>> Yeah. >> And again, like I don't I mean, I don't

>> And again, like I don't I mean, I don't I'm not, you know, I mean, everybody

I'm not, you know, I mean, everybody should do what they think is best. I I

should do what they think is best. I I just I I have I I approached them with a

just I I have I I approached them with a little bit of a side eye, basically. And

little bit of a side eye, basically. And understandably understandably so. So

understandably understandably so. So >> where can people uh find you, Christian?

>> where can people uh find you, Christian? >> Uh mostly I'm on Instagram now. I I you

>> Uh mostly I'm on Instagram now. I I you know I started out on Tik Tok, but Tik

know I started out on Tik Tok, but Tik Tok allows all these like impostor

Tok allows all these like impostor accounts to like impersonate me and

accounts to like impersonate me and contact my followers and I've had so

contact my followers and I've had so many accounts banned over there and with

many accounts banned over there and with the oncoming who knows what's going on,

the oncoming who knows what's going on, I've kind of stopped putting much time

I've kind of stopped putting much time and effort into that. So right now I'm

and effort into that. So right now I'm mostly on Instagram, but I'm I'm trying

mostly on Instagram, but I'm I'm trying to think of some other things to do. you

to think of some other things to do. you know, maybe try to do a podcast or some

know, maybe try to do a podcast or some something that's a little bit less

something that's a little bit less maybe a little bit more longasting, less

maybe a little bit more longasting, less kind of pressure to make content, but

kind of pressure to make content, but but get something that's a little bit

but get something that's a little bit more um

more um concrete, but

concrete, but >> you know, mostly just on Instagram.

>> you know, mostly just on Instagram. Yeah,

Yeah, >> I think that'd be a great idea. But

>> I think that'd be a great idea. But Christian, thanks so much for coming on

Christian, thanks so much for coming on the show here today. We went over a lot

the show here today. We went over a lot of material here, which I think

of material here, which I think >> Yeah, thanks for having me. I really

>> Yeah, thanks for having me. I really enjoyed this. I And I enjoyed our talks

enjoyed this. I And I enjoyed our talks today. So, I hope you know reach out

today. So, I hope you know reach out whenever you want. I always like

whenever you want. I always like >> talks plural is probably the

>> talks plural is probably the >> Yeah, I think I think we had like the

>> Yeah, I think I think we had like the length of this podcast prior to it,

length of this podcast prior to it, which is kind of It's good. It's good

which is kind of It's good. It's good stuff.

stuff. >> We did. We did.

>> We did. We did. >> This is probably the longest I've spoken

>> This is probably the longest I've spoken to someone in a while. So,

to someone in a while. So, >> you have you're you're an easy person to

>> you have you're you're an easy person to talk to and listen to. So,

talk to and listen to. So, >> Oh, thanks, man. I appreciate that.

>> Oh, thanks, man. I appreciate that. >> You got it, brother. But thanks again

>> You got it, brother. But thanks again for coming on. I appreciate it.

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Can Narcissists Turn Their Narcissism Off And On? With Christian John