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Tinder Founder on How Swiping Changed Dating Forever

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This content is an interview with Justin Mateen, co-founder of Tinder, discussing his journey from entrepreneurship to successful investing, his experiences building Tinder, and his insights on risk, reward, and life philosophy.

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you went from being an entrepreneur to

extremely successful investors made a

lot more well after Tinder that you

actually made from Tinder I started off

making private investments in companies

I was doing really well I was up

probably over 20x in aggregate from the

dollars I invested there's not a direct

correlation between risk and reward so I

think it's important to spend your time

and allocate your resources to those

opportunities where there's asymmetric

risk putting your eggs in a basket where

the risk reward profile is best

understanding that is extremely

important I think when you're investing

in companies you're actually learning a

lot more overall because you don't have

tunnel vision where you're focused on

one thing day in and day out and you

have perspective I enjoy watching a

company go from like essentially nothing

to becoming a large company and then

being a part of that [Applause]

[Applause] [Music]

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brecks hey everyone today I have Justin

maen founder of Tinder the very popular

dating app that I guess everyone knows

and after selling Tinder now he is an

investor in both the private and public

markets through through his funds Jam

funds and his family office so I'm

excited to have Justin here Justin thank

you so much man for coming thanks enque

thanks for having you know I'm I'm I'm

remembering the first time we met uh was

at this dinner in

Napa and one of the things I remember is

you were just like so curious my

favorite Vineyard Promontory yeah it was

Promontory right I remember you just

like so curious about like every

business that you came and you asked me

a bunch of stuff like you know were you

always kind of like super interested in

business like since you were a kid I've

always been super super interested in

business but also inquisitive so you're

not the first person to say that I asked

them a bunch of questions the first time

that we met it's my way it's my way of

getting to know you and understanding

how you think about like the world is

were you that were you like that as a

kid you grew up here in LA right very

much so yeah do you have any like funny

stories from like your you know your

teachers or your parents about it um I

actually I went to a school called

merman where you have to do an IQ test

and apparently they were asking me a

bunch of questions for over an hour and

towards the end of it I started asking

the interviewer questions as well how

old are you I was six years old and

you're just like interviewing the

interviewer yeah that's F I may end up

doing that today with you let's do it um

so you you went to uh the school you you

there your whole life it ends I think in

sixth grade or eighth grade so I left

from um that school merid to Brownwood

which was high school were you a good

student at merman it's actually very

interesting merman academically is

supposed to be a much harder school I

did really well at merman at the time I

didn't realize but a lot of the students

that went there were socially inep oh

really they had they had very they were

very smart but they didn't know how to

interact with other people I actually

loved it like looking back at it it

could have been weird but it was a great

school I think I learned a lot I

excelled in math at Brentwood I actually

expected the school to be easier so I

didn't try as hard and my grades

actually got worse in high school oh I I

didn't get amazing grades I think I did you

you

care not really no I wouldn't take notes

in class did you like at that moment in

time like you're a teenager did you have

like a life plan to be successful or was

it like you're just you know kind of

going to the flow Just Like You Enrique

I always planned and wanted to be

successful I didn't know exactly what

path but like do you have any idea the

path act in like oh like I'm going to be

this or that like what was your kind of

anything that I did I would want to

win sports whether it was a game and I

would always find myself optimizing for

long-term success versus short-term

success and to this day I think what

does that mean like what did that mean

in high school so a funny story my dad

always tells me I was at a birthday five

six years old in arcade you know how you

get those tickets arcades from when you

win a game I would fill my pockets with

tickets and then in the middle of the

party take it to my dad and tell him to

hold all the tickets so I could get more

to get the best prize at the end yeah so

you're like saving to you know come

saving for a bigger goal yeah yeah um

what do your parents do my mom is a

homemaker she's an amazing mother that

went above and beyond for her

children uh and my dad's in commercial

real estate did you learn a lot from

your dad about B very much yeah what

were some of the main lessons that he

taught you I think the most important

lesson I learned look there's certain

things that you learn from your dad

because you want to be like them and

certain things that you don't want to do

so I learned on both fronts tell so he

taught me at a very young age that it's

okay to fail and encourage me to take

risk without any judgment where he's

like as long as you're doing something

you're learning from your mistakes and

if you're doing that earlier on you're

going to avoid those mistakes in the

future and you'll do better right so he

he gave me that safety net and that

Foundation where I felt really really

safe where I was able to take risk at a

young age it's extremely important but

then he

also only focused on like tangible

assets he's in real estate so he wanted

like a building right something that's

like real yeah something that has income

something that is easier to predict

whereas a lot of the businesses I've

been involved in you don't have that

line of sight in the in the very

beginning you're focused on

accomplishing something and seeing light

at the end of the tunnel so it's like

you know where you want to go but it's

not as obvious and it's not as safe

upfront but was that a lesson that he

taught you like focus on like assets and

that you didn't follow or he you know

that was what he did but he he

encouraged you to do everything a few

times he was just like there's one Mark

Zuckerberg in the world and there's a

bunch of kids trying to be Mark

Zuckerberg how did that make you feel

made me feel like I want to prove to him

that I could be a you could be the Mark

yeah that's awesome that's awesome maybe

he did said that intentionally to

motivate you yeah there's not a direct

correlation between risk and reward so I

think it's important to spend your time

and allocate your resources to those

opportunities where there's asymmetric

risk where you have either Capp downside

and uncapped upside but also if we're

let's consider eggs as a metaphor

putting your eggs in a in a basket where

the risk reward profile is best right so

I think it's a fallacy when you go to an

investment adviser and they're like oh

do you want highrisk High

reward the reality is everyone wants

relatively low risk with high reward

understanding that is extremely

important is that a lesson you learned

early on from your dad or is something

you kind of got over time no I think I

figured that out on my own what I

learned from my dad so for instance he's

not good at public markets because he

would want to time something per

perfectly right so if you find a stock

that's undervalued a strong

company where you have line of sight and

the market is missing something my dad

would buy that stock if it was down the

next day he'd be really annoyed the next

the day after that if it was down again

he'd be like oh my God I got to sell it

and he would automat he would just sell

it at a loss just to get out but the

reality is it's very very difficult to

time the purchase of something that has

daily movements that are some times not

even correlated directly to the company

but the overall market so the way that I

think about it I take a position and if

the market disagrees right if it goes

down I'll actually buy more if I don't

think anything's changed I'll buy more

and I get excited by it because I'll be

able to form a bigger position so that

the win is bigger when I am right and do

you think at this time right like you

know obviously you're you're doing a lot

of investing in public markets and private

private

markets when you were kind of in this

you know phase and we we'll get to like

a bunch the learnings on that a little

bit later but when you were a kid or a

teenager and you thought about what you

want it was Finance kind of you know top

of mind for you or no that was like

never something you thought you were

doing well I think I wouldn't consider

it Finance I just think that business is

the foundation of really everything like

anything you want to do you need to have

an element of of business and math right

but math is the universal language of

the world there's many different

languages math is consistent and

something that's accepted by everyone

okay so let's go to like um you know uh

high school now Justin right school like

uh how was it like if I Met You in high

school what would I think you would be very

very

young I don't know what you'd think I

think we would assuming we're the same

age yeah were you fun I think I was you

know looking back actually yes and no

when I spent time with a girl that I

really wanted to date I wouldn't really

have problems with that but I also

wasn't like into going I didn't want to

go to like parties and get wasted in

high school either I didn't really get

wasted I'd say until college so what

were you into I never did drugs what did

you want to do in high school learn

about as many different things as I

could and see what I'm interested in and

then also I would be dishonest if I said

I didn't care about attracting

women yeah like every High School

teenager you know like I had meaningful

relationships with less people and then

I had a lot of like more superficial

relationships and it wasn't until

recently that I realized at one point

when I switched schools in seventh grade

I actually I was bullied all right I

always wondered like what is what is it

mean to be bullied and looking back at

it at the time I didn't realize I didn't

want to accept that but but I went to a

school where I was the only maybe one of

two or three Persians and and maybe the

only Persian Jew

Jew

where I one time opened my locker and

someone had put a piece of paper in my

locker he had drawn a camel and said you

camel you dirty camel jockey this is all

your worth with a

penny oh wow literally put a penny in my

locker and I knew who it was

I realized who it was he was a funny

kid who was a kind of a Class Clown but

was not very nice to a lot of people so

years later I actually met him I saw him

in an

elevator in the early days of

Tinder he had messaged me a few times on

like Facebook trying to get lunch and I

wasn't very responsive and he asked me

again in the elevator and I said listen

I don't want to make you feel bad but I

don't really have any interest going

along with you and I reminded him of the

story uh did he remember he remembered I

don't know if he remembered the exact

detail he remembered being that way yeah

he said it wasn't the only story like

that and he was embarrassed and

obviously I forgave him I didn't care

that much but I had a good childhood but

there were times in school where I felt

isolated and it forced

me like I didn't even think about this

until now I was 13 years old in school

Trading stocks public market stocks in

1999 really how did you even open an

account I had like a tdmr trade account

I don't know how the account was set up

I think kids were allowed to have

accounts or maybe you needed a custodian

so it was a joint account with my dad

and I was trading stocks and I was

filling up my day in in a in a different

way I don't know I didn't think I was

nerdy but looking back maybe what was

your what was the stock you remember

trading that you did I have one that was

very funny there was a company called

Jon soda I don't think it's even around

anymore and I think the stock went up

maybe from like a dollar or two to to 25

or $30 and it was my biggest position

and then it crashed and came all the way

back down and then there was tech stocks

there was a company called uh

broadcom uh Red Hat

Qualcomm that's the time where in 1999

those stocks you know to the Moon

certain yeah they literally went to the

moon were you were you net positive or youself

youself

I was up a lot and then I was up a lot

less towards the end of it but because I

had started at a at the right time at

least I didn't lose money but it really

there was a big discrepancy between what

it was valued at at the peak versus what

it ended up being yeah and then like

everyone else in that time right yeah I

presume but I mean it was it was a real

bubble yeah no one knew what was going

on it was like a game of hot potatoes

what was your relationship with with

money at the time like how do you think

about it I looked at it as a game I

wanted I mean look I was a kid I don't

think I spent a lot of money it wasn't

what excited me about it wasn't about

spending the money I knew there would be

lots of good ways to spend money CU I

mean you can like take more girls on

dates or you know

like I was looking at the bigger picture

of like what it would mean 20 30 years

later you used to share stories with me

about in Brazil how you would want to

save money for steak dinner versus

chicken yeah because steak was more of a

delicacy exactly love steak I didn't

really think about it like that

interesting so you kind of just thought

about like keeping saving in and

compounding and yes all that I like like

the compounding effect of money over a

long period of time right not just from

interest but just from growing it and

then reinvesting it you know you went to

USC right I did was that kind of like uh

where you wanted to go you want to stay

an ally I was a failure for going to USC

what do you mean I remember my

specifically my mother being very very

upset with me oh really how because like

she because I didn't get into she wanted

me to go to Harvard or pen okay I got

weight listed at pen if I maintained a

certain GPA at USC I could transfer but

were you disappointed or is more your

parents I don't think my dad cared that

much the business school at USC was

great my mom cared more makes sense but

what about you I pledge to fraternity

and I had no intention of going yeah you

know once you start you form

relationships and you're having fun

socially you don't want to switch

schools so so tell me like how was that

first year college for you like what was

that like it was so fun yeah the first

time you got

wasted first time I got too

wasted yes what how was College like how

was that first year of college like what

it what changed for you like how was

that the experience I don't not so much

change but I think the independence of

going to a school even though it

happened to be in LA I lived on campus

and you were able to do whatever you

wanted you had that full freedom for the

first time so that was nice I had a

great college experience it wasn't

overly academic didn't feel overly

academic and it was still fun you know

col colleges today like I think it's

overall like IV League schools

especially I think they're in a really

dark place I wouldn't want to go to an

ivy league and I wouldn't want my

children to go to an ivy league right

now what would you want your children to

do there's a woke agenda and I don't

think that they're fun so it's like

what's the point you're acade like your

takeaway from college I don't think it

should be so much about the actual

information that you're learning in

those classes necessarily it's about

being able to apply your learnings in

the way that you think about things to

the real world and I think that if you

don't fall exactly into place and agree

with this whole woke mentality that

you'd have a tough time

at Ivy League schools was it not woke at

all when you were no I didn't feel it at

all I think it was maybe the early days

but I didn't notice it back to your last

question I didn't answer it correctly

because you were asking about where kids

would go where I would want my kids to

go to school want your kids to go to

school I don't know if there's an

alternative yet but I'm hoping by the

time they're old enough to go to school

that there'll be a better alternative I

mean you didn't love Stanford did you uh

um it was okay yeah I had I had some fun

but you know it was different like I was

already older than most kids there and

it was it was hard to adapt cuz you were

a year

older I was 20 when I got to Stanford I

think most kids were like 18 and you

know I had the company before so it was

a little bit was it more culturally or

you think you were too advanced I was

living an adult life before going to

Stanford and it was hard to adapt to

college life back again um I think

culturally look there was a lot of kind

of you know woke stuff but I wouldn't say

say

that you know I I had my own values and

I had the my own stuff that I believe so

I kind of just you know laughed at it it

wasn't like a really big issue for me

when I was there were you surprised when

you started like did you have a certain

expectation sitting in

Brazil in terms of what colleges would

be like honestly I thought it was going

to be more fun so I'll tell you the

story uh uh that's funny so you know I I

grew up watching like American pot you

know and I thought colleges in the US

were going to be like that so I got to

like Stanford and I can say it was not

like that and I was like very

disappointed I'm like oh wow us colleges

you know and then Laura my wife at the

time I met her and I had dropped out

already and I went to USC and I was like

oh I think USC kind of like feels more

like that and you mean you went to visit

us I went to visit

yeah it's definely more americ and then

Laura was like no it's not like this you

know like you know it's it's it's a very

serious you know and then literally as

she's saying that we're walking by this

like house with a pool and literally

four girls in bikini just playing

volleyball you

know and I remember I was like oh [ __ ] I

should have gone to

USC you think you would have dropped

down if you went to USC I think so I

think so I think I you know I for me

college was kind of in between the two

companies so I wanted to have six months

of vacation you know and going to

college that was my experience a little

bit but I just remember USC looking very

very fun is it like does it stand to

their reputation do you think it's like

the first year was really really fun

yeah second year was pretty fun and

gradually became less fun oh really why

I think that crazy stuff had happened

and they were the school was monitoring

like Fraternity Row yeah yeah well tell

us a a funny a funny uh fraternity story

that you had there's so many and they're so

inappropriate I don't know which one I

could share if I were to imagine the

founder of Tinder I would have imagined

someone who likes to go get girls you

know like that is like you know like the

best found

for I did but I was also a lover boy oh

you found love easy no not easily but if

I really cared about something one I

would always care yeah yeah yeah maybe

to a fault actually because then it

wouldn't allow me to like other people

or be

open um after that point did you have

like sirious girlfriends growing up yeah

I had one girlfriend but I was a little

kid how old like from 13 to 16 14 to 19

I had a serious ass girlfriend what

happened we broke up when I was 19 but

um clearly yeah

uh we broke up because you know it was

the only girl I've ever been with and

I did you think that you would be with

her again in the future you know I don't

think so I think like what happened was

she was from kind of like a small town

and she kind of wanted to stay in the

town you know kind of like the

traditional Small Time girl family and I

always wanted to go explore the world

you know she's like a doctor so she you

know it's hard to practice medicine

outside of Brazil and you know I wanted

to go and explore the whole world so uh

from that point we were incompatible

which was great but it also gave me a

lot of like security growing up right

like having a steady girlfriend builds a

lot of security when you're in a

teenager yeah it's t safety yeah and

then also I don't know for me I we used

to always talk about like the future

like imagine like you talk about your

kids and getting married yeah yeah me

too how did like you know you had this

like Financial ambition but like how did this

this

kind of uh wanting to attract the

opposite sex play into your motivation

you think that's a good question a part

of it it's actually very funny the girl

that I dated her father became very

wealthy while we were

dating so I always wanted to be able to

provide for her like like to be like to

maintain a certain lifestyle CU I was

like oh if we're going to be together I

need to I need to win you need to like

make it yeah so I think that was early

on maybe part of the

motivation and in your head like what

did that mean like what did you want to

provide for her anything that we wanted

like that just a good lifestyle just to

be able to do whatever great house

vacation I think once yeah all that I

think that when you're financially

stable you're able to do what you really

want and you're not stuck in this Rat

Race having a nine-to-five job where you

have to report to someone and have your

life laid out for for you you could

actually you don't want to do something

today you don't have to you want to go

out of town you can go out of town you

want to spend hours learning about

something you can you can it's like

Freedom right did you always have that

view that like hey Financial stability

will give me

freedom I don't know if it w if if I

realized that until later on I remember

I just remember like certain things like

back to what to my dad I remember one

time he told me that

there's he was worried he's like just

don't want you to he wouldn't say me but

he was talking to me as though he meant

it towards me he's like oh all of my kid

friends and their kids like I'm worried

they're all going to be Beverly

Hillbillies just met like lazy people

that don't really work that are that

underachieve and live off their parents

yeah so I I was very conscious of not

doing that I wasn't worried about not

utilizing his relationships or anything

I could benefit but I wanted to achieve

success on a different level did you

feel your parents were wealthy did you

think that growing up I felt they were

wealthy but there was there were still

wealthier people so you know it's always

relative there's always you know in your

school and stuff like that you perceive

their weth for example my parents I

lived in the kind of like the

countryside yeah and even though my

parents are you know they would not be

considered upper class if I live in s

Paulo the main city in the country

Country Side I felt I was so rich you

know cuz like everyone around me was

less but then I had friends for example

that they were actually wealthy but they

went to like a super you know wealthy

school and then they fell poor you know

because like everyone around them was

like all relative yeah I remember in my

first school which was way more academic

I remember kids coming over and my

living room was really big yeah so I was

like wow I have a really big house it's

all it's all relative right yeah and

then in the second school where you

could tell that certain people were

there because their parents donated to

the school I mean I felt normal but I

didn't feel like I was extremely

extremely wealthy yeah and that's also

when anytime There's A disruption in

wealth like at that time the tech boom

you're seeing a lot of people or hearing

about a lot of people that are becoming

extremely extremely wealthy so then it

just reminds you and keeps you keeps you

balanced I I I didn't feel like I was

ever in need of anything but I also

didn't feel like I wanted more for my

own life yeah so I guess like how do you

think it kind of like your parents

success impacted you at that point in

time it was a good motivator but at the

same time I I was I remember being 14

years old 15 years old and going to work

on the weekends with my dad and trying

to give him ideas and like oh we could

do this and we could do that and then

later on when I was a little bit older

but I didn't have didn't have much yet

and the whole Market had turned in 2008

2009 I kept telling my dadow is the time

where we should be buying like he was

buying real estate like real estate now

and even when you know that quote like

when it's even when it's your own

blood it's on blood on the streets it's

time to buy yeah

and he was like if you want to do it you

go do it yourself like I I'm dealing

with my sinking [ __ ] yeah you know so I

I think I I I grew up with B but there

were also times where financially you

know there were big losses and he my dad

wasn't doing as well before he was in

real estate he had this business that

was competitive it was it was a family

business with two other families and it

was like Best Buy at the peak they were

doing you know a couple hundred million

dollars in sales and they were doing

really really well in the 80s and then

Best Buy came out and they were more in

you know

operationally effective I would say and

within a few years the business was

called adrees adrees got crushed so I

think at that time my dad had to go and

restart it was my grandpa two of his

friends and then their

children but at that time that was like

a really big

business and so I saw my dad even in his

own life probably feeling extremely wealthy

wealthy

to to being less comfortable to the

point that I remember my grand

grandfather who has passed away since

then but he told my dad that he should

consider pulling us out of private

school because it was really expensive

do you think seeing that impacted you

somehow yeah like what do you remember

it impacted me I just never wanted to

feel be in that position or feel that

way it was healthy it was a very healthy

thing to experience and then I remember

when my dad went into real estate at

first after he' done a few deals my dad

was playing poker with his friends and

they were co-investing in one of my

dad's deals and they were trying to

stron harm him in terms of like changing

how he wanted to structure it and they

were actually kind of I felt like

disrespectful towards him so I always

remember that and I was it bothered me

you know I see this a pattern I know at

least two other Founders that had

experiences that they grew up really

wealthy and then something happened and

the wealth went away and that created

like so much motivation of seeing the

top and seeing the you know kind of like

the oh yeah I mean for me it wasn't that

extreme but I think one of the worst

things that one could endure is having

extreme wealth having a certain

lifestyle getting used to

it and then having it all then and then

having it lost yeah having it all go

away because I think if you don't know

then you don't know what you're missing

yeah once you get used to it and then

you lose it I think that it's more

devastating and tell tell me about the

actually always remember you had one of

the most unique perspectives on

this cuz you were you 25 years old you

had made a lot of money and I asked you

do you can I share the story yeah of

course I asked you we were in the

car and I said Enrique I'm like you're

doing well but you're not doing that

well to be living like this like do you

think that it's healthy like what

happens if you uh what happens if your company

company

fails and you don't make any money and

what you said was so interesting you

said well I'll know in the next year or

two if I'm going to actually be

successful and the amount that I'm

spending for the next year or two I can

afford that and I think that in your

case it wasn't a bad thing that you were

living that way and you were right right

you weren't buying a house but you were

living well does that make sense so

yeah I think Living Well gave gave you a

taste yeah you were definitely you were

risk on but on I've never seen someone

with their personal liquidity living

that kind of

Lifestyle come on dude you grew up in La don't

don't

you I never saw someone as intelligent

as you that I respected living that way

because I did grow up with a lot of

people that came to the city and left

yeah um yeah yeah I I I I you know

especially in certain areas like in the

Sunset Strip like up in Sunset Hills

that place is

notorious for or you know Bankers or new

found new found money they go there they

they either rent houses buy houses throw

crazy parties and some of them don't

make it I always felt

that you know look I I don't know if you

felt the same but I always had

confidence you know maybe probably

overly confident that I was going to be

successful since a very young age and

the other thing I always had confidence

is that or I I always thought it was

like look some things

are best lived in your 20s some things

are best lived in your 30s some things

are best lived in your 40s right so

there's some experiences that you have

in your 20s that if you try to have it

when you're 40 you know it's not going

to go

well and I saw so many people that are

like 48 you know and like getting

divorced and like parting like crazy and

like that's just you know sad that's

very true like a dollar that you spend

today you'll derive far more pleasure

than when you're 70 years old exactly

exactly so you could actually you can

really enjoy it in a different way

and you know the way I think about it

I'm safe with a good

chunk of my liquidity and then I'm

extremely extremely extremely risky with

a smaller percentage but you can

actually derive massive Alpha if you

that portion of it like you can would is

a big swing up and down

on the upside but not on the downside

you know this is very smart have you I'm

reading this book now called The Missing

billionaires the idea is there were you

know a certain amount of people I forgot

the exact number in the

1900s that had over five million of

wealth in the 1900s when and the like

the year 1900 actually

1900s and if you know all these people

had invested their wealth just in the

stock market just in the S&P

and spent around I think 2% that they

say of their wealth every year and if

they were still living no no so all

their oh got it yeah all their erors if

they kind of kept doing

that we would have 177,000 billionaires

just for an inheritance in the US that's

like the number based on the number of

children they had based on the number of

children they have and everything but

you know and I I don't know because at

one point you revert back to close to

the average because if it keeps getting

diluted across multiple Generations that

wealth goes away well yeah but you know

but that's that's the math that they

said is like even if you were to dilute

across many kids if they just kept

investing in compounding you spend any

2% we would have 17,000 airs that would

be billionaires that's so interesting

and we have like

700 I think it's more well maybe it's

more but you know that the order of

magnitude according to them is still

still that right so so what happened

right like where are all these think

it's a lot more than 700 those are just

people that have public positions that's

what Forbes estimates as like kind of

inherited billionaires in the US

inherited billion yeah inherited it yeah

so this is not counting self-made it

this is just inherited and the the

177,000 number is just inherited right

from like the 1900 families that's so

interesting um and the argument of the

book makes it that you know look it's

what people get wrong A lot of times is

not the actual Investments itself is the

sizing of them that you know making your

risky bet it's fine as long as it's like

a smaller percentage you know of your

wealth and it can have like really high

upside and you learn from it even if you

lose money yeah the problem if people

either size too small on the stuff that

they are good Investments or too large

you know interesting and it's it's

really you should read the book it's

really good it's very much the way they

describing it but it has a lot of other

good insights so

basically it talks a lot about like how

to think about portfolio ruction and the

sizing of everything and you know the

why people have this like rule of 60/40

stocks and bonds and and and I'm going

to read that by the way but I I think

6040 is too safe by the way if someone

was asking me I would not recommend

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brecks you had a couple business trials

right before Tinder like tell us how did

it all start what was your first

business so first business I had

finished school early about a year early

which school and USC USC yeah so around

why I just finished my classes early I

think the last class I had was like

ballroom dancing I had I had some AP

credits to transferred and I finished

school maybe a semester and a half

semester early but I didn't know what I

was going to do I had no idea and I suck

at dancing so

anything yeah um and I had ball dancing

with football players actually so I'm

like sitting there looking like standing

there trying to dance I'm like looking

over and these like football players are

like dancing better than me I'm like

they're football players and they dance

better um but I had to figure out what I

was going to do in a very short period

of time and at that time I remember

there was a class

in a buad business class where I

realized that the overall time spent

online I think you spent like 30 or 40%

of your free time online back then in

2007 yet only like three or four maybe

5% of ads were online so there's a

massive discrepancy in terms of where

that spend would shift total ad spend

yeah like people online versus offline

it's like let's say like people are

advertising on like Billboards and TV

but in reality they should have been at

that time advertising online it was a

matter of time before that the the spend

shifted from from offline to online

because that's where you were as a

consumer spending time yeah right so you

know at that time like I don't think

Instagram or Facebook or any of them

were monetizing but basically I picked

up on that Trend that in the future

that's what would be

happening and how did you pick that up

like where do you even look to find out

the no just there I don't know just two

pieces of information and I'm like

there's a massive Arbitrage here you'd

think that more more spend would be

happening online how do you even know

how much spend was happening online

versus offline did you like go look at

yeah you could look at the data in the

class there was like um there was

something that either had one of those

facts either it was the 40% it came up

in class at some yeah in a class it was

like a case study and I realized that

the spend was there was a severe

discrepancy so there was a company I

tried to build with with my with someone

that I met who was like 15 years older

than me we we tried to embed video ads

on websites basically on any websites

where you could actually do ads for

films or you know imagine creating

content that people viewed on YouTube

and being able to put your your your ad

in and we would get $3 from The

Advertiser per per click on the video

let's say you had a blog or a Blog and

you weren't making any money you could

throw in a a movie trailer you could

talk about like oh you know you trying

to make it relevant to what the ad was I

think for it to perform well yeah but

you could just you know even if you

didn't make it relevant you could just

throw on a video anyone that saw yeah we

would take half the revenue so we would

do like an ad deal with with you know a

movie that wanted to get you know

viewership and and get the word out we

would do a 500K deal with them we would

keep 250 and then everyone else would

make 250 how much did you raise it

wasn't a lot and aggregate between this

and the next thing that we did with it I

think we raised like 900 Grand or

million that's a lot like you know post

kid in 2007 2007 20 between 2007 and 200

um 10 that whole time frame that's it's

not a very hype VC cycle yeah right like

not rais money YC still only had like 30

people yeah in their class yeah yeah so

then um we we made some money from those

ads but it wasn't the right time yet it

was still too early because you had

these Legacy like old school media

people running these budgets and they

weren't ready they weren't ready to to

placed enough dollars online at that

time so then we use a portion of that technology

technology

to create a drag and drop website

builder so

basically I didn't I don't know how to I

didn't know how to do HTML code but I

could create a website within minutes so

like Taylor Swift's official website was

built off our platform back then yeah

back then the main idea was that we

would be able to I think it was like Wix

right like website Builders to create a

much better version of

that where you pay $10 $20 a month and

you can

build your website and then we could

also service your your website where we

could use really really cheap labor and

charge you a few hundreds a month if you

didn't want to do it you just to tell us

what you want to change and we'll do it

for you how you get Taylor Swift so

Taylor Swift We were charging her a few

thousand a month and also providing her

how get in touch with her I I can't

remember exactly how we got through her

but it had something to do with her dad

okay someone had a relationship with her

dad we told her about some connections

you got to her dad like oh you don't

have a website you should have a website

we're just I think she had a website but

it would take like she would want to

change her website when she's doing a

concert in LA by the time she could

change it it would take like a few weeks

that concert's gone she wouldn't be able

to change it on the fly so kind of like

a real time yeah so lot in real time

like she could perform in Chicago have

you know Chicago background the next day

be in LA with beach background saying

like hey like all my La girls can't wait

to see you tonight um so it allowed her

to frictionlessly change her website on

the fly in real time yeah and what

happened there the tech was actually

pretty good but we weren't able to

launch in time and it was never going to

be like a massive I want I want it

wasn't going to be a multi-billion

dollar company and well why not without

getting into too much

detail my business partner did something

which caused him to have to leave the

company and I knew that it just wasn't

going to so even is if it became

big I didn't want to deal with it and

and I also didn't think that it could

become big enough so it was in that no

man's land where I'm like oh like let's

create a smooth Landing yeah someone

bought that company for not much like it

was like $10 million $15 million of

stock in another company how did you

find that buyer it was an individual

buyer that had a lot of stock in that

company that wanted that Tech so then he

he paid us in stock of another company

and then we retained a minority stake

did that other company go anywhere no

nothing not much the company that we got

stock in or what he did with it no no no

the company got stock in no I think it

was it was called like lockers.com I

don't even and then I think I think it

was a zero I think it went to zero and

then we did some get some cash up front

got it also got it just to like break

even I just wanted a smooth Landing it

it wasn't going to be what I wanted to

be and then Tinder was literally the the

next thing so I Tinder was a second

company I learned a lot from the first

three years the first one yeah yeah

three and a half years three and a half

years four yeah and then we started

2011 200 we were trying to figure coer

Sean when did you meet Sean at this

point I met him years earlier through my

girlfriend when I was a kid he had a

crush on her no and

she felt bad for him because uh he would

awkwardly call her all the time so we

came across each other that was the

first time second time was when we were

freshman in college we would actually we

had a math class one of us would do the

homework and the other one would copy it

and we would basically take turns we sat

next to each other in in one math class

I was pledging he wasn't really he was I

think he was only in school for a

semester or two and he wasn't living on

campus so

you know we never got too close then and

then we

reconnected about a year

before a year before Tinder and we

started talking about different ideas

that we had and um where there were gaps

in the market and and what what we could

build so we had a few ideas one was like

a um peer-to-peer

realtime sports betting

company one one was called Butler we

actually have renderings like back from

2011 renderings of it was like task

rabbit but with better branding and we

found out that the cost of insurance

when someone enters your home is so high

that the unit economics wouldn't really

work even at scale so that didn't make

sense and then Tinder was one of those

ideas it was you know it was called

Matchbox of the time but it eventually

became Tinder and Sean started building

that when he was at uh hatch Labs he was

working at an

incubator one day he calls me he's like

he's we're talking about all these ideas

and he's like I got a job I'm like what

do you mean you got a job like I thought

we're starting a company and he's like

no I just jobed for a few months they're

like G to pay me a salary until we start

building it and then I'll leave

unfortunately we were never able to

leave with Tinder so from day one we

were in a position where we didn't have

control of the company so we'll we'll

get into the corporate governance and

drama as as I don't know anything about

that yeah but uh let's uh let's let's

first get into the actual kind of

business right like so the first idea

and I think I told you this but you know

that like in the end of 2012 I uh I did

a hackathon and I literally did this

idea that was you could like but it

wasn't like it was Facebook friends it

wasn't geolocation yeah so this is when

did you guys remember that September

2012 August 2012 so this is December

2012 actually I hadn't heard about

Tinder and this was what this is

December 2012 wow I hadn't heard about

Tinder and I built this you're in Brazil

I was in Brazil and I came for this

hackathon in Miami though it wasn't in Brazil

Brazil

Grand and so we did this it's called ask

me out which is basically I had a friend

that was very nerdy and he was like oh I

I go to college and I want I only want

this girl that's like my neighbor to

know that I like her only if she likes

me back otherwi I don't want her to know

W so you could like like and match your

Facebook friends yeah it just makes it

safer so you're not really putting

yourself out there exactly unless you

just say that you like someone when you

don't just to see if they like you

exactly so the premise does it really

work it didn't work no no but tinder's

built on the same premise well but the

thing is like I think the the the story

going to tell is like someone after when

the hackathon came to us and said dude

you guys should build a mobile app I can

just see you're like liking and not

liking and I was like this is so stupid

who like uses mobile you know cuz I live

in Brazil so people didn't have

smartphones oh my God so I just thought

it was the stupidest idea to like build

a mobile app for it that's so

funny what percent I think back in

2012 if I remember correctly

like only 40% of Brazilians had

smartphones I think way less than that

but it ramped very quickly yeah it ramp

very quickly I remember early on I was

looking at where we should launch next

and because the off was through Facebook

I needed to find markets where they had

a high penetration of smartphones but

also had high penetration of Facebook

Facebook was very big I think the

criticism that you know some people

would have in Brazil was like oh yeah as

soon as like Android uh they built an

app for Android you know the yeah for

tnder yeah well you know Tinder we

didn't have Android for over a year yeah

so but like's that's one of the reasons

that I think Tinder worked because the

quality of the user was actually there

were consumers that would spend more and

that were they were more affluent

and I don't think that there's stats for

this but if you look at iPhone users

versus Android especially at that time

iPhone users were probably more

attractive oh yeah well there definely

like a a big correlation of wealth right

and it was like iPhone was like way more

expensive yeah but then there's a

correlation between wealth and

attractiveness yeah I think that's hard

to disagree with what do you think the

reason is I mean you know there's the

saying like there's taking yeah like you

just have a lot more money to spend on

better diets better healthare better

skincare better everything better

clothing better everything right and

Wealthy guys usually marry more

attractive women that's also true yeah

that's also true true true in reality

imagine how much more beautiful the

world would be with those

177,000 billionair billionaires that

could have been the lost lost souls yeah

you know a lot of uh I would definitely

think that a wealthier world is a

definitely a more attractive world for

sure and you know I think you're seeing

you see a lot of signs of that when

products that were only available to

rich people start going to Damascus

right like you know everyone gets a

little bit prettier right and uh you can

make AR zic now and a lot of stuff

that's kind of I think it's the very

early days of that yeah be the world

will be way more beautiful in a few

years I think so too I think so too so

hopefully healthier too healthier too

exactly so but like let's go back to the

Tinder story when you were starting out

Tinder what was the first idea like the

first iteration of it was exactly how it

became to be the Swip R in Life or there

was like that was an evolution

the swipe left and right was more of an

evolution the first version you actually

click yes or no mhm more like a like a

Game Boy did you actually watch the

social or know the social network story

at this point with like face mash and

everything or

no I'm pretty sure I did but not didn't

know the details of it I when did the I

don't know when that movie came out but

I think it was around the same time did

the did the Facebook movie come out I

think it was 2012 I'm not I think it it

was like a part of of my subconscious I

think so I knew the story but look

Facebook was a place where you connect

with people that you already knew and if

you look at social media there was a lot

of peacocking people were using it to

attract the opposite sex or attract

whoever they're attracted to that wasn't

100% of the use case but I think there

was an underlying tone that was always

prevalent and Tinder just

removed it made it more direct so that's

and you know what's interesting I

actually met the guy who used to because

at some point Facebook launched some

dating thing right I think they did I

remember being worried about it I don't

think they allocated that many resources

to it so you know what they told me that

happened I met the guy who ran it and he

told me it turns out people don't want

to have the same profile for dating and

for Facebook like the profile that they

have for dating is like a very curated

version of it for dating which is not

you know how they want to be pursue but

I I think what Facebook could have done

they could have pulled content from your

Facebook made it easy but then allowed

you to have a separate profile right so

there there it was nuanced but I think

that they actually they're one of the

few companies that maybe the only

company it's the biggest scale in terms

of number of users that is able to

literally if they want copy a product

and make it better and have it win yeah

there aren't a lot of companies that can

do that and the fact that you know with

Tinder we actually we pulled content

from Facebook you weren't able to upload

a picture that was not on Facebook and

the reason was you're less likely to to

lie or Facebook yeah or put a photo of

someone that's not you yeah right so

yeah so it reduce a cat for the first

couple years yeah it reduced cat fishing

to help build trust within the network

the key was just about building trust

within the network and we didn't want

people to feel uncomfortable and weird

using a dating platform right because

back then people were just using

Match.com and that was not for the

younger demo so the key was being able

to get college

students and people that were perceived

as cool to use this new platform so

having having it be a you know the

platform shift to mobile did help but it

was all those little things it was the

timing of it it was the marketing

strategy and so let start of the numbers

there like what were when like what are

the months when did you guys launch

Tinder what was first year second year

kind of like user account Revenue

profits everything like

the numbers earli on no it was around August

August

2012 that we started like it was in the

App Store playing around with it we had

no users on

September early September I think it was

like September 12th was a Thursday I

started texting people from my phone

texted three or 400 people from my phone

with a link to Tinder to download it and

these are all USC people yeah basically

just sending them like a little note

and then also trying to get them to you

know answering questions or like trying

to entice them to download it but

seating it with the right people it

wasn't like what was the strategy it was

just like I saided like Paris Hilton

like anyone that I knew that IID met

that I thought was like wouldn't use a

social wouldn't use match.com but would

want to use you know would want to meet

people where other people would see that

person and be like whoa look I don't

you're not I'm not desperate if this

person's on it then then I can use it

too so a about three oron sign up she

did I don't know if it was as a favor At

first she she said no but she later did

so I can imagine like at that time

you're swiping to this thing or you're

seeing it's like oh Paris Hilton's here

I don't know if she was really using it

but she downloaded it and you'd see her

face and it wasn't fake it was really

her um but I saying it like adds

credibility to the thing yeah yeah so

you sent it to these three 400 people 3 400

400

people and at first you know the first

day was like first few hours was kind of

slow I sent it between like Thursday and

Friday then on Friday what we I started

to see was you know around 5 or 6 PM the

number of profile ratings I think we hit

close to like 500 profile ratings

profile rating is essentially just

saying yes or no to a profile like a

swipe swipe so imagine 500 total swipes

but then when I realized as more and

more people downloaded it those

numbers skyrocketed meaningfully so

maybe the next two hours went from 500

to a thousand right because there's more

people to see and they would go through

till the end so then I was like we're on

to something we were I was at a Shabbat

dinner on Friday night in Santa Monica

I'll never forget this

and on Shabbat you're not supposed to

use your phone you're supposed to be

with your

family I was glued to my phone just

looking at the metrics looking at the

stats refreshing it every 30 seconds

it's like wow like there were five more

profile ratings like the people are

really they're sitting there on their

phone using it right now and then it

went from 1,000 to 2,000 in less than an

hour and everyone was upset that I was

on my phone I was at someone's house I

don't even know who it was it was one of

my mom's friends I literally just left

without saying bye I get into my car was

in a Range Rover never forget pull down

the windows

I turned on the heat because it was cold

out but I wanted the windows down

because it just felt good and I was

like screaming and I was excited I

almost cried because I'm like this is

going to be

massive so if you like imagine I'm in

the car that moment I was like this is

going to be crazy because it was like

you just saw that it just doubled in an

hour the the engagement doubled there

were true Network effects with each

incremental user the value proposition

for the original users better is better

so then I knew like the people that had

downloaded it earlier in that day if

they opened it again there was a bunch

more people to see and most of them were

in La so they would be able to see each

other Tinder was hard because we had to

launch a product that

is not Rel like if you're in Brazil

you're not a relevant user to me so

proximity matters right it's a local

it's a local product and we had to

create density in in many markets in a

very short period of time but they're

just let's go to the number so 2,000 so

2,000 then I got home we hit 3,000 like

by the time I get home I was in bed just

refreshing the numbers and before I went

to sleep we were over 5,000 swipes

swipes off like you know few hundred

four or 500 users what was like a month

later or something so then so so by the

end of September we ended up at like 4

4,000 5,000 users by the end of November

you know we more than doubled again and

then we ended December with

48,000 users right it doesn't sound like

a lot well it's mostly LA right like

yeah it was mostly LA and then we had

also launched in a few college campuses

yeah we'll get to the markting and the

48,000 um it went in January it went to

450,000 so we grew over 9

00% in January of 2013 what happened and

that was another point where I'm like oh

man I was like I go tell my dad there

might be a second a second Zuckerberg

and third and fourth and fifth um who's

literally using in some ways Tinder

today is a failure in terms of what it

could have been if you asked me then I

would have thought that Tinder could be

bigger and I and I do believe it would

have been bigger if uh Sean and I

maintained control of it

and did what we wanted to do with it so

then it's been a one-trick pony right we

haven't the product hasn't really even

innovated so 450,000 in January 450 then

we started having major issues because

it was built on Prototype code in a

matter of like five days it couldn't

handle the

scale I'm not an

engineer but I was so annoyed because

I'm like we're we're growing and like

the only risk is the product not working

so people were seeing the same profiles

multiple times

and they assumed it's because we ran out

of other people to show them so we

didn't want them to see nothing nothing

but in reality it's because we weren't

registering the yes or no on the profile

R it was just like a bug yeah it was it

was a big bug and you know I just

remember reading the App Store reviews

reviews

like excessively like I wouldn't

obsessively like hours like just going

through every single App Store review

sending it to the engineers telling them

this isn't working that's not working to

the point that a couple of them couple

of them didn't want to work they're just

they kind of gave up so I'd see them

like they would be at the office just

like sitting on a chair and I'd be like

the [ __ ] are they sitting on a chair

they have to fix this or we're going to

die like it was existential risk and

Ryan Ogle the CTO I remember him telling

me that it's basically like trying to

change the

engine of a

car while going 200 miles per hour so I

was like okay it makes sense it might

take a little longer

um but you know it was a scary time

because it was working we had Market fit

the users were there but the actual

product was broken makes sense scary

yeah so like you're like [ __ ] like it

was everything is going well the only

thing that's broken is like this

engineering thing look it took a while

but and they kept theow coming or like

it just stall the it didn't stall but it

slowed down it did slow down but we were

still gr like we got to over a million

users one and a half million users and

the product still wasn't working like I

wouldn't use the word perfect it wasn't

close to perfect and then when when did

you hit a million

users you know I think it was like

February oh one month later yeah one

month later and then what was it by

December that year you know it's it's

very interesting so in early

December this is rewind back to 2012

early December I had gone to Miami for

art basil wanted to go like be a fun

trip dude that's when I was there for like the hackathon oh you were there

like the hackathon oh you were there yeah early December I was there yeah I

yeah early December I was there yeah I was there and we were at wall it was a

was there and we were at wall it was a night it was a nightclub at the W and we

night it was a nightclub at the W and we were gonna have a party afterwards for

were gonna have a party afterwards for Tinder or no for Tinder yeah and I'll

Tinder or no for Tinder yeah and I'll never forget while we were sitting there

never forget while we were sitting there we hit 20,000 users that's when we hit T

we hit 20,000 users that's when we hit T it was early December and I sent an

it was early December and I sent an email to the whole team telling them

email to the whole team telling them that we have now like our users can fill

that we have now like our users can fill up the Staple Center it's a local

up the Staple Center it's a local stadium in La yeah have you been there

stadium in La yeah have you been there yeah so I was like you know I think they

yeah so I was like you know I think they have like

have like 18,600 um seats so I was like there's

18,600 um seats so I was like there's literally that many people on Tinder

literally that many people on Tinder when you think about it that way in the

when you think about it that way in the early days it's like a lot it's a lot

early days it's like a lot it's a lot and that and then I said there'll be

and that and then I said there'll be times where we'll be growing by 20,000

times where we'll be growing by 20,000 users per day you know I feel like it's

users per day you know I feel like it's around the corner and ultimately we'll

around the corner and ultimately we'll be growing by multiples of 20,000 per

be growing by multiples of 20,000 per day which we did and actually very short

day which we did and actually very short order yeah we did hit

order yeah we did hit 20,000 over 20,000 users per day in

20,000 over 20,000 users per day in February and then the following year

February and then the following year February of 2014 we actually grew there

February of 2014 we actually grew there was one day that we grew by

was one day that we grew by 250,000 but by the end of December like

250,000 but by the end of December like what we done number so literally we we

what we done number so literally we we grew by 12 12 and a half staple centers

grew by 12 12 and a half staple centers actually more because it's only 18,600

actually more because it's only 18,600 but we go like 13 and a half staple

but we go like 13 and a half staple centers so it was thinking about it in

centers so it was thinking about it in that

that context sometimes when you think about

context sometimes when you think about numbers and humans you don't realize

numbers and humans you don't realize that there's that many Souls that are

that there's that many Souls that are using your your your product in real

using your your your product in real time wait so what was what the numbers

time wait so what was what the numbers what was the numbers by December

what was the numbers by December 2013 uh uh January was 450,000 by

2013 uh uh January was 450,000 by December was like how much I don't

December was like how much I don't remember the exact user the number of

remember the exact user the number of users but we were over uh 10 million

users but we were over uh 10 million downloads over 10 million and we had

downloads over 10 million and we had this we had this product that you could

this we had this product that you could actually see the downloads in real time

actually see the downloads in real time pull it down with six six new users I

pull it down with six six new users I pull it down again three more users yeah

pull it down again three more users yeah two more users eight more users and so

two more users eight more users and so at this point you're like this is a hit

at this point you're like this is a hit this is like an yeah this is a hit this

this is like an yeah this is a hit this is we just can't mess it up just yeah

is we just can't mess it up just yeah like it's ours to lose it's ours to lose

like it's ours to lose it's ours to lose it felt like it was ours to lose even

it felt like it was ours to lose even when before we even got to a million

when before we even got to a million users and it's funny the CTO actually

users and it's funny the CTO actually early on I didn't want to do any ads so

early on I didn't want to do any ads so I want to make sure we get the right

I want to make sure we get the right users and then in certain areas where we

users and then in certain areas where we didn't have reps or enough density I

didn't have reps or enough density I actually tried Facebook ads people don't

actually tried Facebook ads people don't really I don't think I've ever really

really I don't think I've ever really talked about this and for instance in

talked about this and for instance in Turkey I didn't know anyone that could

Turkey I didn't know anyone that could help us in Turkey we were acquiring male

help us in Turkey we were acquiring male users on Facebook for 30 cents per user

users on Facebook for 30 cents per user and about 50 or 60 cents for

and about 50 or 60 cents for women and

women and I did this

I did this test where I realized Facebook ads they

test where I realized Facebook ads they give you more love if you uncap the

give you more love if you uncap the pricing so there're they they'll just

pricing so there're they they'll just they'll throw more ads and I uncapped

they'll throw more ads and I uncapped it and I was at dinner with the team and

it and I was at dinner with the team and the CTO did something where every new

the CTO did something where every new user was counted as five yeah so all all

user was counted as five yeah so all all of a sudden I saw

of a sudden I saw like yeah no it wasn't a bug he did it

like yeah no it wasn't a bug he did it on purpose because he knew I was

on purpose because he knew I was checking it and I didn't want to leave

checking it and I didn't want to leave my computer but everyone's like yeah

my computer but everyone's like yeah just come to dinner and um so we were

just come to dinner and um so we were growing instead of growing like I knew

growing instead of growing like I knew we we supposed to be growing by like

we we supposed to be growing by like five six seven eight users every time I

five six seven eight users every time I refreshed we were growing by like 30 or

refreshed we were growing by like 30 or 40 users so at first I was like wow this

40 users so at first I was like wow this is crazy and then I realized oh my God

is crazy and then I realized oh my God it's really growing fast I think that

it's really growing fast I think that we're spending hundreds of thousands of

we're spending hundreds of thousands of dollars on ads because I was testing not

dollars on ads because I was testing not only turkey but also in the US where it

only turkey but also in the US where it cost a lot

cost a lot more and I had I ran home to check the

more and I had I ran home to check the computer and I realized that what he had

computer and I realized that what he had done it was like it was kind of like a

done it was like it was kind of like a prank it was a prank

prank it was a prank yeah I think it's video of it of me

yeah I think it's video of it of me freaking out at dinner and like running

freaking out at dinner and like running off getting out of the table and running

off getting out of the table and running home so so to get the first million

home so so to get the first million users like tell us about what was the

users like tell us about what was the kind of marketing user acquisition you

kind of marketing user acquisition you have you said you send these first few

have you said you send these first few hundred text then how did you get the

hundred text then how did you get the first million users like what were the

first million users like what were the strategies so let's rewind back to USCS

strategies so let's rewind back to USCS I my freshman and second half of my

I my freshman and second half of my freshman year and for my sophomore year

freshman year and for my sophomore year I threw events with my college roommate

I threw events with my college roommate Jasper we who actually started a company

Jasper we who actually started a company called Tas us later on and he became

called Tas us later on and he became really successful but at the time we

really successful but at the time we were just like little kids I felt like

were just like little kids I felt like we were 19 years old W weren't even old

we were 19 years old W weren't even old enough to go to like a nightclub or a

enough to go to like a nightclub or a venue we had fake

venue we had fake IDs Jasper would do more of the create

IDs Jasper would do more of the create tickets and rent buses and basically

tickets and rent buses and basically what we would do we would lock in a

what we would do we would lock in a venue I would go to them and say hey I'm

venue I would go to them and say hey I'm not going to rent it from you but I

not going to rent it from you but I guarantee that I'll bring you $10,000 of

guarantee that I'll bring you $10,000 of bar revenue and if we hit 10,000 I want

bar revenue and if we hit 10,000 I want above between 10 and 15,000 I want 25%

above between 10 and 15,000 I want 25% of the revenue above 15 I want 30% of

of the revenue above 15 I want 30% of the revenue so was a bar

the revenue so was a bar guarantee we would we would get the

guarantee we would we would get the venue for free and then I would get a uh

venue for free and then I would get a uh musician a performer I would book Talent

musician a performer I would book Talent like Snoop Dog corrupt loonies each

like Snoop Dog corrupt loonies each event would have someone different and

event would have someone different and we would sell

we would sell tickets rent buses and have the buses go

tickets rent buses and have the buses go back and forth from USC and some other

back and forth from USC and some other schools in in in La local area now the

schools in in in La local area now the first time it took me couple weeks to

first time it took me couple weeks to sell the tickets I was selling them

sell the tickets I was selling them myself so I'd have to meet up with

myself so I'd have to meet up with people they I think we would charge like

people they I think we would charge like 25 or $50 before the event and then $100

25 or $50 before the event and then $100 at the venue if they had if they didn't

at the venue if they had if they didn't have tickets and they went to the door

have tickets and they went to the door price

price gouging and I was like you know doesn't

gouging and I was like you know doesn't scale it's taking up too much of my time

scale it's taking up too much of my time if you actually spend way less time on

if you actually spend way less time on this and make a little bit less it's

this and make a little bit less it's it's way better so what I did was I went

it's way better so what I did was I went to all the fraternities and sororities

to all the fraternities and sororities at

at USC and told them I need your help

USC and told them I need your help selling

selling tickets and we had Monday Night chapter

tickets and we had Monday Night chapter dinners where everyone from the TR and

dinners where everyone from the TR and sorority would sit in one room eat food

sorority would sit in one room eat food and then have a meeting so I told them

and then have a meeting so I told them during your meeting can you please stand

during your meeting can you please stand up and tell them about this party at

up and tell them about this party at this venue with this performer and sell

this venue with this performer and sell tickets so so they became their

tickets so so they became their distribution channel that became the

distribution channel that became the distribution Channel it was very

distribution Channel it was very effective so I would tell them that for

effective so I would tell them that for every 10 tickets you sell you get one

every 10 tickets you sell you get one for free right so if you're selling them

for free right so if you're selling them for $50 each right you pay 450 you can

for $50 each right you pay 450 you can keep yours for your your ticket is free

keep yours for your your ticket is free when you sell 10 you sell 20 you make 50

when you sell 10 you sell 20 you make 50 bucks you sell you know 40 you make

bucks you sell you know 40 you make $150 or you could give it to three of

$150 or you could give it to three of your friends for free I don't really

your friends for free I don't really care but what I found was we were able

care but what I found was we were able to sell out in two days wow I give it to

to sell out in two days wow I give it to I give it to them on Monday by Wednesday

I give it to them on Monday by Wednesday we were done so it went from two weeks

we were done so it went from two weeks of me doing it alone to having like 10

of me doing it alone to having like 10 or 20 reps and selling out in two days

or 20 reps and selling out in two days which was great

which was great so when I was thinking about Tinder I

so when I was thinking about Tinder I was like I stopped doing that after a

was like I stopped doing that after a year my mom was like you're this is like

year my mom was like you're this is like basically this is beneath you like you

basically this is beneath you like you shouldn't be selling you're not PR yeah

shouldn't be selling you're not PR yeah you're not a promoter like I'm not a

you're not a promoter like I'm not a promoter I'm throwing events yeah and I

promoter I'm throwing events yeah and I realized I'm like okay this is not going

realized I'm like okay this is not going to be my future this is not my future

to be my future this is not my future and I stopped doing it but I learned a

and I stopped doing it but I learned a lot from it I was like wow this you know

lot from it I was like wow this you know so I was looking back I'm like how can

so I was looking back I'm like how can we appeal to a bunch of college kids for

we appeal to a bunch of college kids for a product where you need relevance in

a product where you need relevance in terms of who the users are the age right

terms of who the users are the age right the a the demo of the user and proximity

the a the demo of the user and proximity of the user so there was nothing better

of the user so there was nothing better than colleges and literally I didn't

than colleges and literally I didn't have to think too much about it I was

have to think too much about it I was like okay well it's very obvious you're

like okay well it's very obvious you're going to go to Monday Night chapter

going to go to Monday Night chapter dinners which is basically what we did

dinners which is basically what we did um a Tinder which was essentially most

um a Tinder which was essentially most of the early growth didn't you sponsor

of the early growth didn't you sponsor beer or something for the farties too

beer or something for the farties too yeah so so early on a lot of the Reps

yeah so so early on a lot of the Reps were just my brother's friends yeah that

were just my brother's friends yeah that were in college or my sister's friends

were in college or my sister's friends who were in college or my friend's

who were in college or my friend's younger siblings that were in college

younger siblings that were in college were the most we besides USC what are

were the most we besides USC what are the big colleges for Tinder early on so

the big colleges for Tinder early on so USC was basically I looked at a map and

USC was basically I looked at a map and I was like we looked for party schools

I was like we looked for party schools with lots of fraternities and sororities

with lots of fraternities and sororities with a Greek life so

with a Greek life so USC was the first

USC was the first Austin like UT UT Austin um

Austin like UT UT Austin um SMU basically any school my sister had

SMU basically any school my sister had gone to SMU also sou Southern Methodist

gone to SMU also sou Southern Methodist University or something it's a small

University or something it's a small school yeah so basically you know

school yeah so basically you know Boulder schools where Arizona Arizona

Boulder schools where Arizona Arizona was a really big one would

was a really big one would you no I I wouldn't do it we would get

you no I I wouldn't do it we would get reps um how do you meet a rep in Arizona

reps um how do you meet a rep in Arizona they were my sister's friends or

they were my sister's friends or brother's friends or my friends so just

brother's friends or my friends so just through the network you always Network I

through the network you always Network I knew a lot of people and we would find

knew a lot of people and we would find two or three reps in each school and

two or three reps in each school and instead of just doing it in their own

instead of just doing it in their own fraternity or sorority they would

fraternity or sorority they would actually walk during Monday night

actually walk during Monday night deliveries so basically at USC for

deliveries so basically at USC for instance you could get a gift and like

instance you could get a gift and like guys would send flowers to girls and

guys would send flowers to girls and invite them to formals or whatever we

invite them to formals or whatever we would just have someone go and say it

would just have someone go and say it was actually my sister and uh my

was actually my sister and uh my ex-girlfriend that was working at Tinder

ex-girlfriend that was working at Tinder I I was there like for USC I was there

I I was there like for USC I was there but for like UCLA and SMU I you know I

but for like UCLA and SMU I you know I didn't do it myself like it wouldn't

didn't do it myself like it wouldn't yeah of course it was more about just

yeah of course it was more about just directing people what to do you know we

directing people what to do you know we we we had like a program where so you

we we had like a program where so you got we give them stickers and like we

got we give them stickers and like we did like crazy [ __ ] that you get crazy

did like crazy [ __ ] that you get crazy [ __ ] like we we I sent stencils to all

[ __ ] like we we I sent stencils to all of them with spray paint and said go to

of them with spray paint and said go to like

like somewhere that you won't like get

somewhere that you won't like get expelled but stencil on the floor like

expelled but stencil on the floor like Tinder find me on Tinder so we'd

Tinder find me on Tinder so we'd actually have stencils say find me on

actually have stencils say find me on Tinder graffiti onto the floor this is

Tinder graffiti onto the floor this is all like super cheap stuff that was like

all like super cheap stuff that was like basic close to free stickers put

basic close to free stickers put stickers all over the place plaster your

stickers all over the place plaster your whole dorm with stickers we would drop

whole dorm with stickers we would drop notes in terms of like you know just

notes in terms of like you know just like pranks like Tinder swag and then

like pranks like Tinder swag and then you know have people go

you know have people go into a classroom filled filled with as

into a classroom filled filled with as many people as possible like big

many people as possible like big auditoriums and wear a Tinder shirt and

auditoriums and wear a Tinder shirt and pretend like ask for the teacher pretend

pretend like ask for the teacher pretend that they matched on Tinder so just like

that they matched on Tinder so just like a prank that everyone's like well Tinder

a prank that everyone's like well Tinder like this this is crazy over 500,000 of

like this this is crazy over 500,000 of the million were college kids and the

the million were college kids and the way to know we were looking at the like

way to know we were looking at the like at that time you actually were even able

at that time you actually were even able to use it as a minor so 13 to 17 olds

to use it as a minor so 13 to 17 olds could see each other that was about five

could see each other that was about five or 6% of our user base so siblings of

or 6% of our user base so siblings of college kids I would say yeah then 18 to

college kids I would say yeah then 18 to 25 was you know like 50 around

25 was you know like 50 around 50% of our users 50 something percent

50% of our users 50 something percent and then 28 to

and then 28 to 35 was in it's like somewhere in the 20s

35 was in it's like somewhere in the 20s and then it just continued to dwindle

and then it just continued to dwindle down and we and we even had like 1% that

down and we and we even had like 1% that was 65 plus as we scaled which was cool

was 65 plus as we scaled which was cool to see it was easy easily replicated

to see it was easy easily replicated that gross strategy from throwing events

that gross strategy from throwing events in colleges so I'm glad that I did that

in colleges so I'm glad that I did that because if I hadn't I wouldn't have

because if I hadn't I wouldn't have known how effective it was I remember

known how effective it was I remember hearing the Tinder parties were epic

hearing the Tinder parties were epic like oh so you asked me about that so we

like oh so you asked me about that so we would throw Tinder parties the first

would throw Tinder parties the first Tinder party was actually at my parents

Tinder party was actually at my parents house it was in September 2012 so

house it was in September 2012 so shortly after we had launched you know

shortly after we had launched you know we didn't even have before we had 5,000

we didn't even have before we had 5,000 users we didn't have maybe like 1,500

users we didn't have maybe like 1,500 users at that time and I'll never forget

users at that time and I'll never forget we had gotten big Tinder

we had gotten big Tinder signs and I'd put the Tinder signs like

signs and I'd put the Tinder signs like on the house and it was visible if you

on the house and it was visible if you were driving from both from not from the

were driving from both from not from the backyard you couldn't see it but from

backyard you couldn't see it but from the front of the house yeah and I

the front of the house yeah and I vividly remember my mom she's like

vividly remember my mom she's like what's that I'm like just a Tinder logo

what's that I'm like just a Tinder logo and I remember her saying this is not a

and I remember her saying this is not a wh house I what I was like this it's not

wh house I what I was like this it's not like Tinder is like for dating it's for

like Tinder is like for dating it's for it's not it's not bad mom and um now she

it's not it's not bad mom and um now she always tells everyone like oh you know

always tells everyone like oh you know the first Tinder party was at my house

the first Tinder party was at my house she like shows them a photo you know but

she like shows them a photo you know but at the time it was a bit controversial

at the time it was a bit controversial yeah so so yeah so basically the point

yeah so so yeah so basically the point was we bust people the same same way I

was we bust people the same same way I did for the parties we bust them from

did for the parties we bust them from USC there was a friend of my brothers

USC there was a friend of my brothers whose birthday it was so we're like why

whose birthday it was so we're like why don't you use our house for your

don't you use our house for your birthday party we'll have a pool party

birthday party we'll have a pool party and we had like four buses filled with

and we had like four buses filled with USC kids and in order to get into the

USC kids and in order to get into the house everything was free but in order

house everything was free but in order to get in you just had to download

to get in you just had to download Tinder so automatically we seated it

Tinder so automatically we seated it with like a few hundred users at USC on

with like a few hundred users at USC on that day and we did that internationally

that day and we did that internationally as well we did that all around the world

as well we did that all around the world where we would

where we would sponsor parties you know like open bar

sponsor parties you know like open bar for the first hour like 500 bucks or

for the first hour like 500 bucks or whatever but you have to download Tinder

whatever but you have to download Tinder like you have to show Tinder to the door

like you have to show Tinder to the door guy in order to get into the party that

guy in order to get into the party that was one of the things that the Reps had

was one of the things that the Reps had to execute locally you know one one of

to execute locally you know one one of the things that makes me think here in

the things that makes me think here in this story is that look the reality is

this story is that look the reality is this company probably couldn't have been

this company probably couldn't have been started if there wasn't a Founder who

started if there wasn't a Founder who understood how to do all these things

understood how to do all these things right like it' be hard to actually

right like it' be hard to actually execute it could have been started but

execute it could have been started but it wouldn't have gone anywhere yeah it's

it wouldn't have gone anywhere yeah it's like building um the most beautiful

like building um the most beautiful building in the middle of nowhere where

building in the middle of nowhere where the building exists but there no users

the building exists but there no users yeah you're right I mean I think I think

yeah you're right I mean I think I think so the reality you were in a frat you

so the reality you were in a frat you did like to party you did like to get

did like to party you did like to get girls that was like the seed what else

girls that was like the seed what else what else did I do yeah exactly that's

what else did I do yeah exactly that's I'm saying that was the seed for what

I'm saying that was the seed for what became like a massive company right like

became like a massive company right like you know when did Cinder start becoming

you know when did Cinder start becoming profitable early on once we actually hit

profitable early on once we actually hit a million users

a million users we didn't have control of the company so

we didn't have control of the company so I and match thought naming who it was

I and match thought naming who it was but I had a very Vivid conversation with

but I had a very Vivid conversation with someone who

someone who essentially I mean he started okq bid

essentially I mean he started okq bid this guy so imagine match had bought okq

this guy so imagine match had bought okq bid and we had to report to him and he's

bid and we had to report to him and he's like congratulations you hit a million

like congratulations you hit a million users it's time to monetize yeah and I'm

users it's time to monetize yeah and I'm like what do you mean like we we're not

like what do you mean like we we're not monetizing now he's like no I think you

monetizing now he's like no I think you are he's like Okay C was monetizing well

are he's like Okay C was monetizing well before we hit a million

before we hit a million users but over a onewe period I had to

users but over a onewe period I had to actually convince him that it was not it

actually convince him that it was not it would be foolish to monetize now and

would be foolish to monetize now and risk the future growth

risk the future growth because you know there was I was able to

because you know there was I was able to extrapolate from third-party data of

extrapolate from third-party data of other companies that we could but if we

other companies that we could but if we monetize in the wrong way it would hurt

monetize in the wrong way it would hurt growth to the point that could be like

growth to the point that could be like maybe we would maybe double the user

maybe we would maybe double the user base by the end of the year versus

base by the end of the year versus getting to 10 million plus users so I

getting to 10 million plus users so I was saying yes we forgo one year of

was saying yes we forgo one year of Revenue but we're going to make sure

Revenue but we're going to make sure that we have a much larger user base

that we have a much larger user base before we begin to monetize and so we

before we begin to monetize and so we didn't really monetize Tinder until we

didn't really monetize Tinder until we had tens of millions of users ultimately

had tens of millions of users ultimately and Tinder was actually

and Tinder was actually profitable you won't believe this how

profitable you won't believe this how much money do you think it cost before

much money do you think it cost before Tinder became

Tinder became profitable H total spent yeah total

profitable H total spent yeah total spent on everything m

spent on everything m 15 million yeah like more like six

15 million yeah like more like six million six million that's why I look at

million six million that's why I look at these companies I'm like wow these are

these companies I'm like wow these are overfunded yeah spoiled

overfunded yeah spoiled kids um you don't

kids um you don't need I think it's so important to spend

need I think it's so important to spend and allocate your dollars in the right

and allocate your dollars in the right places especially early on because

places especially early on because that's when you're building culture

that's when you're building culture right so if you were raised in a Land of

right so if you were raised in a Land of excess that culture continues whereas

excess that culture continues whereas with Tinder we were at the time we were

with Tinder we were at the time we were like annoyed because we're like oh man

like annoyed because we're like oh man we're controlled by a larger company we

we're controlled by a larger company we have all these term sheets like crazy

have all these term sheets like crazy valuations they won't let us take it but

valuations they won't let us take it but I don't think it actually hurt us that

I don't think it actually hurt us that much but when you turn on monetization

much but when you turn on monetization how much money did you start

how much money did you start making you in the first year

making you in the first year yeah I think we made like it was a

yeah I think we made like it was a partial year and I think Revenue was

partial year and I think Revenue was like close to 50 million 5 Z 5 and then

like close to 50 million 5 Z 5 and then the next year was like meaningfully

the next year was like meaningfully higher like how much maybe 180 something

higher like how much maybe 180 something million wow wow super profitable yeah

million wow wow super profitable yeah super profitable tinder's doing over two

super profitable tinder's doing over two billion in Revenue now I I'm actually I

billion in Revenue now I I'm actually I think it's still like it's a $30 stock

think it's still like it's a $30 stock right now it's like a 11 12 billion

right now it's like a 11 12 billion company doing two billion in $2 billion

company doing two billion in $2 billion plus in Revenue doing over a billion in

plus in Revenue doing over a billion in iida yeah close to 1.5 billion in iida I

iida yeah close to 1.5 billion in iida I think it's actually a good value play

think it's actually a good value play the overall dating Market is growing at

the overall dating Market is growing at like 10% year-over-year

like 10% year-over-year I think match is growing around the same

I think match is growing around the same 9% and it has so much more

9% and it has so much more potential my the reason I think Tinder

potential my the reason I think Tinder is a failure in terms of what it could

is a failure in terms of what it could have been we could have drastically

have been we could have drastically expanded the user

expanded the user base if we were able to attract

base if we were able to attract users that were not looking for for

users that were not looking for for dates or or

dates or or spouse right like for what like Friends

spouse right like for what like Friends Business Connection that kind of stuff

Business Connection that kind of stuff so imagine I mean we have the density

so imagine I mean we have the density and we we have the product right close

and we we have the product right close proximity we have users everywhere all

proximity we have users everywhere all over the world

over the world um imagine you've told me about some

um imagine you've told me about some friends I've told you about some friends

friends I've told you about some friends you've never necessarily met some of

you've never necessarily met some of those people I've never met some of your

those people I've never met some of your friends but do you think it would be

friends but do you think it would be weird if I was at a hotel and I got a

weird if I was at a hotel and I got a push on vacation that said hey soand so

push on vacation that said hey soand so regardless of sex ual orientation so and

regardless of sex ual orientation so and so is here at the bar if you want to get

so is here at the bar if you want to get a drink with him like I wouldn't think

a drink with him like I wouldn't think it's weird I have no problem walking 20

it's weird I have no problem walking 20 feet and being like Oh hey like I've

feet and being like Oh hey like I've heard about you and having a

heard about you and having a conversation learning something I mean

conversation learning something I mean if you do that married people could use

if you do that married people could use Tinder not for dating but just to meet

Tinder not for dating but just to meet new people yeah just to meet new people

new people yeah just to meet new people I think that could be one of the biggest

I think that could be one of the biggest products in the world yeah the real

products in the world yeah the real value proposition and then in my mind

value proposition and then in my mind you would go online and offline so if

you would go online and offline so if you don't want to see someone you don't

you don't want to see someone you don't want to be social you don't want to meet

want to be social you don't want to meet anyone you just go offline it works in

anyone you just go offline it works in the

the background and

background and um there will be a big company one day

um there will be a big company one day that does that the challenge and the

that does that the challenge and the reason that there hasn't been is people

reason that there hasn't been is people have tried variations of it but they

have tried variations of it but they don't have density yeah to start Tinder

don't have density yeah to start Tinder has that density um um you know probably

has that density um um you know probably going through Tinder you saw so much of

going through Tinder you saw so much of like dating patterns right like what did

like dating patterns right like what did you learn about dating you know seeing

you learn about dating you know seeing like all the data there like what are

like all the data there like what are some interesting stats and like what did

some interesting stats and like what did you

you learn basically I realized women are

learn basically I realized women are truly more selective than

truly more selective than men so the number of right swipes for

men so the number of right swipes for men is historically around

men is historically around 70% 70% yes 30% no and if you look at

70% 70% yes 30% no and if you look at women it's you know they say yes

women it's you know they say yes 10% of the 70 so 7% of the time they're

10% of the 70 so 7% of the time they're saying yes and 93% of the time they're

saying yes and 93% of the time they're saying no

saying no wzy very different and then what about

wzy very different and then what about gayman if you look at gayman it's

gayman if you look at gayman it's somewhere in the middle actually oh

somewhere in the middle actually oh really it's around like 25 to 30% yes

really it's around like 25 to 30% yes because I remember like talking to my

because I remember like talking to my friends and using turn at the time and I

friends and using turn at the time and I guess like the default was well I'm just

guess like the default was well I'm just going to swipe right and then whoever

going to swipe right and then whoever matches with me I'll decide right but

matches with me I'll decide right but like until someone matches you know I

like until someone matches you know I don't have any business being that

don't have any business being that selective I guess that's what the

selective I guess that's what the mentality right yeah but the way I think

mentality right yeah but the way I think about it if you know you're not going to

about it if you know you're not going to like someone anyways why say yes well

like someone anyways why say yes well because then you have

because then you have think about swiping right yeah but

think about swiping right yeah but that's a part of the fun yeah I guess if

that's a part of the fun yeah I guess if you just say yes and I mean a lot of

you just say yes and I mean a lot of people use it that way so I think the

people use it that way so I think the point is men use it that way way more

point is men use it that way way more than women yeah for sure I don't think

than women yeah for sure I don't think women use it that way no no not at all

women use it that way no no not at all not at all not at all um and what about

not at all not at all um and what about like pictures or descriptions like any

like pictures or descriptions like any any any interesting things the more

any any interesting things the more pictures you have and the more you know

pictures you have and the more you know information you have within reason is

information you have within reason is better oh interesting right because if

better oh interesting right because if you have less content you could be

you have less content you could be catfishing just sounding more authentic

catfishing just sounding more authentic just being authentic just you know if

just being authentic just you know if you meet up with someone that you don't

you meet up with someone that you don't know you want to at least see a few

know you want to at least see a few photos and like you know zoom in a

photos and like you know zoom in a little bit and okay now question TR try

little bit and okay now question TR try to learn more about the person you know

to learn more about the person you know like what do they like to do Hobbies

like what do they like to do Hobbies people are attracted to that I think you

people are attracted to that I think you were like the first kind of like OG

were like the first kind of like OG cancelled Tech guy I was cancelled

cancelled Tech guy I was cancelled before it was cool if you canceled

before it was cool if you canceled before canceling was even like a thing

before canceling was even like a thing you know I canceled hard I remember

you know I canceled hard I remember reading actually the articles that came

reading actually the articles that came out early on and [ __ ] yeah well you

out early on and [ __ ] yeah well you know I just thought I didn't even know

know I just thought I didn't even know the Articles like that you know like it

the Articles like that you know like it wasn't a thing right um I didn't know

wasn't a thing right um I didn't know either but there was like a whole press

either but there was like a whole press team behind that yeah just like how did

team behind that yeah just like how did that feel like how was that experience

that feel like how was that experience it was one of the worst moments of my

it was one of the worst moments of my life i' would say

life i' would say after my uncle passing away he died when

after my uncle passing away he died when he was 30 and I was like 14 that was

he was 30 and I was like 14 that was probably the second worst day of my life

probably the second worst day of my life for so for so many reasons because what

for so for so many reasons because what was

was the you're like reading an article and

the you're like reading an article and you're like wow this person's a real

you're like wow this person's a real [ __ ] and they're like that person's

[ __ ] and they're like that person's me and there's like thousands and

me and there's like thousands and thousands of Articles out there and I'm

thousands of Articles out there and I'm in this position where I can't respond

in this position where I can't respond because I need to protect my Equity the

because I need to protect my Equity the company is trying to claw Back My Equity

company is trying to claw Back My Equity if I say

if I say anything I'm not sued personally

anything I'm not sued personally unfortunately so I don't have the right

unfortunately so I don't have the right to even respond they had complete

to even respond they had complete control

control and you know I just had to sit there and

and you know I just had to sit there and take it and just wait till it blows over

take it and just wait till it blows over which was very

which was very hard do you think that like what did you

hard do you think that like what did you think at that day like what was you know

think at that day like what was you know it was just really hard because without

it was just really hard because without getting into too much detail it was like

getting into too much detail it was like a long-term relationship that I had with

a long-term relationship that I had with someone where we really cared for each

someone where we really cared for each other and then we broke up we went

other and then we broke up we went through like a bad breakup but honestly

through like a bad breakup but honestly it wasn't even that bad like we could

it wasn't even that bad like we could have been friends today you know what I

have been friends today you know what I mean like it wasn't something that we

mean like it wasn't something that we weren't enemies like I cared about her I

weren't enemies like I cared about her I wanted her to do well and I think she

wanted her to do well and I think she cared for me as well you know you've

cared for me as well you know you've been incredibly incredibly successful

been incredibly incredibly successful after the fact after Tinder and I think

after the fact after Tinder and I think you know you definitely made way more

you know you definitely made way more money post Tinder than younder way more

money post Tinder than younder way more but but then like it still feels like

but but then like it still feels like you know even in this conversation

you know even in this conversation you're talking about it right you're

you're talking about it right you're still a little bit guarded right if you

still a little bit guarded right if you want my advice on it I think you should

want my advice on it I think you should dude you it's been so long you paid a

dude you it's been so long you paid a price you know you should

price you know you should Embrace and and be more open you know

Embrace and and be more open you know and talk more about your experience

and talk more about your experience because it's been so you do such amazing

because it's been so you do such amazing things you know even Tinder obviously is

things you know even Tinder obviously is unbelievable but even after Tinder yeah

unbelievable but even after Tinder yeah um I I think it's negative for the world

um I I think it's negative for the world if people like you are not sharing their

if people like you are not sharing their stories and fear of repercussion you

stories and fear of repercussion you know and I think we're moving to a world

know and I think we're moving to a world with that the going direct you're not

with that the going direct you're not depending on journalists anymore and you

depending on journalists anymore and you can just you know say your your version

can just you know say your your version of I'm very hopeful about the future you

of I'm very hopeful about the future you know the ironic part is not a single

know the ironic part is not a single journalist even talk to me really not

journalist even talk to me really not yeah so it's like you can you can make a

yeah so it's like you can you can make a one-sided allegation about

one-sided allegation about anyone file a lawsuit and then the next

anyone file a lawsuit and then the next day whether the content's authentic or

day whether the content's authentic or not you could you could even lie you

not you could you could even lie you could say whatever you want and that

could say whatever you want and that press will eat it up because they're in

press will eat it up because they're in the business of arbitraging eyeballs and

the business of arbitraging eyeballs and if it's a sexy story in my case it's

if it's a sexy story in my case it's like oh this like frat

like oh this like frat bro Tinder fat found ER yeah Tinder

bro Tinder fat found ER yeah Tinder co-founder like you know so it's it's a

co-founder like you know so it's it's a juicy story yeah in general I don't

juicy story yeah in general I don't think you need to put yourself out there

think you need to put yourself out there too much either there's not that much

too much either there's not that much benefit but hopefully hopefully today is

benefit but hopefully hopefully today is a start of something new maybe once a

a start of something new maybe once a year we could do a podcast I I would

year we could do a podcast I I would love that absolutely do so tell me let

love that absolutely do so tell me let me ask you a question um when you met

me ask you a question um when you met your wife yeah did you tell her to not

your wife yeah did you tell her to not Google you or like did you like pre say

Google you or like did you like pre say I was so insecure that I would make sure

I was so insecure that I would make sure to tell her before I even met her really

to tell her before I even met her really hey by the

hey by the way I got in trouble for sexual

way I got in trouble for sexual harassment my girlfriend sued me for

harassment my girlfriend sued me for sexual harassment I'm that was like your

sexual harassment I'm that was like your opening line I harassed my girlfriend um

opening line I harassed my girlfriend um but trust me I'm not that bad yeah no so

but trust me I'm not that bad yeah no so I actually told her

I actually told her before before we even met that hey like

before before we even met that hey like whatever just just FYI so you're not no

whatever just just FYI so you're not no I don't I don't even know if I said it

I don't I don't even know if I said it FYI just I don't know how it came up but

FYI just I don't know how it came up but it came up before we met and before you

it came up before we met and before you started dating no before I even met her

started dating no before I even met her I told but how did you tell her someone

I told but how did you tell her someone before I don't know how it came up we

before I don't know how it came up we like talked before the day that we were

like talked before the day that we were meeting up we texted or something or

meeting up we texted or something or talked and then um oh so while you

talked and then um oh so while you texting to set up a meeting you already

texting to set up a meeting you already like told her what happened I just

like told her what happened I just didn't want to feel uncomfortable about

didn't want to feel uncomfortable about something once I know someone how do she

something once I know someone how do she react to it's one thing when 99.8% of

react to it's one thing when 99.8% of the world that you don't know think

the world that you don't know think something of you but then once you like

something of you but then once you like my tight Circle which I have a lot of

my tight Circle which I have a lot of amazing friends like that doesn't matter

amazing friends like that doesn't matter but you know when you're meeting someone

but you know when you're meeting someone new who doesn't know

new who doesn't know you I just wanted to get out of the way

you I just wanted to get out of the way I guess how does she react she didn't

I guess how does she react she didn't care she didn't give a [ __ ] um she

care she didn't give a [ __ ] um she thought it was funny that I was telling

thought it was funny that I was telling her so I like that too you know just

her so I like that too you know just being authentic right you're definitely

being authentic right you're definitely one of the most uh authentic people I

one of the most uh authentic people I know so by the way it has affected me in

know so by the way it has affected me in business in certain times also oh really

business in certain times also oh really how come oh yeah there's been times like

how come oh yeah there's been times like especially with like female Founders

especially with like female Founders that I a couple times when I wanted to

that I a couple times when I wanted to invest in their companies did a great

invest in their companies did a great call and then after they Google me

call and then after they Google me they're like oh this guy like sexual

they're like oh this guy like sexual harassment and then there was another

harassment and then there was another case actually it's very interesting

case actually it's very interesting there's a company called

there's a company called [ __ ] I actually did this investment from

[ __ ] I actually did this investment from my

my fund a few years like three years ago

fund a few years like three years ago the company was being sold he had an

the company was being sold he had an offer to sell the company for $3 million

offer to sell the company for $3 million so over the weekend I had to convince

so over the weekend I had to convince them that selling would be foolish and

them that selling would be foolish and that they'd lose control and that you

that they'd lose control and that you know they would just own a tiny tiny

know they would just own a tiny tiny piece of a larger company and that their

piece of a larger company and that their Life Would Suck basically

Life Would Suck basically and I was successful in convincing them

and I was successful in convincing them not to and then the second stuff was

not to and then the second stuff was letting me invest and we had agreed on

letting me invest and we had agreed on terms I was going to invest at the same

terms I was going to invest at the same price $3 million valuation which was you

price $3 million valuation which was you know they didn't have much but um I

know they didn't have much but um I really liked the founder and what they

really liked the founder and what they were building so he agreed to let me

were building so he agreed to let me invest I had signed docs and then he's

invest I had signed docs and then he's like by the way he's like can I he

like by the way he's like can I he called me he's like I want to talk to

called me he's like I want to talk to you about like all that stuff and you

you about like all that stuff and you know I I I didn't get into the details

know I I I didn't get into the details of it but I was just like listen I was

of it but I was just like listen I was 26 years old I went through a bad

26 years old I went through a bad breakup it sucked was a very two-sided

breakup it sucked was a very two-sided thing there's two sides of every story I

thing there's two sides of every story I never said my side of the story probably

never said my side of the story probably never

never will but if that really bothers you that

will but if that really bothers you that much that you're concerned about me

much that you're concerned about me investing it's a good

investing it's a good filter I'm like I think we'll both

filter I'm like I think we'll both regret it but maybe I would wouldn't you

regret it but maybe I would wouldn't you know I would don't want to invest in

know I would don't want to invest in someone who is woke or or believes

someone who is woke or or believes everything that they read in the media

everything that they read in the media anyways and he was like you know what

anyways and he was like you know what like I would love to have you invest I

like I would love to have you invest I invested my companies now I don't think

invested my companies now I don't think I'm allowed to say what it is but it's

I'm allowed to say what it is but it's become a massive company I don't think

become a massive company I don't think they've announced the round but you know

they've announced the round but you know it's going to be a multi- multi-billion

it's going to be a multi- multi-billion dollar company and it's very close to

dollar company and it's very close to already being one now and I almost

already being one now and I almost missed that opportunity and there's a

missed that opportunity and there's a few stories like that where I ended up

few stories like that where I ended up not investing but it just it comes up in

not investing but it just it comes up in in both your personal life and business

in both your personal life and business so I think that

so I think that uh I admire certain people that put

uh I admire certain people that put themselves out there but it

themselves out there but it takes you need to you need to be willing

takes you need to you need to be willing to have that way of life like being a

to have that way of life like being a public person which I I've not been a

public person which I I've not been a public person definitely not gone out of

public person definitely not gone out of my way what would you have done

my way what would you have done differently I really don't know I have

differently I really don't know I have noidea yeah I went through a bad breakup

noidea yeah I went through a bad breakup there were a couple days where it's like

there were a couple days where it's like fighting and whatever and then that gets

fighting and whatever and then that gets you know there put out there in a

you know there put out there in a certain context um

certain context um without so much additional information

without so much additional information but I think what I would do is just uh

but I think what I would do is just uh if you're giving advice to your younger

if you're giving advice to your younger self I have no idea what I would have

self I have no idea what I would have don't put yourself out there just try

don't put yourself out there just try to don't let things get too heated and

to don't let things get too heated and in either direction and don't work with

in either direction and don't work with someone don't date someone that you work

someone don't date someone that you work with I don't know but you know blind

with I don't know but you know blind lines are blurred and you're just like

lines are blurred and you're just like having fun and you're working and you

having fun and you're working and you just like you know sometimes it just

just like you know sometimes it just happens so I always wanted the best for

happens so I always wanted the best for her anyways it's like let me ask you a

her anyways it's like let me ask you a question like a deep question like what

question like a deep question like what do you regret about this whole thing

do you regret about this whole thing like what would you advise your your

like what would you advise your your younger self to do differently given

younger self to do differently given everything you've been

everything you've been through I think that

through I think that if I was speaking to my younger self I

if I was speaking to my younger self I would say that you know when it comes to

would say that you know when it comes to dating and

dating and relationships nobody's

relationships nobody's perfect and there'll be ups and downs

perfect and there'll be ups and downs like that you experience in every

like that you experience in every relationship and when you're breaking up

relationship and when you're breaking up you may say things that you don't

you may say things that you don't necessarily mean to get a reaction from

necessarily mean to get a reaction from that

that person

person or you know for whatever reason everyone

or you know for whatever reason everyone you know both sides say bad things to

you know both sides say bad things to each other that they don't necessarily

each other that they don't necessarily mean and I think

mean and I think that when you date someone that you work

that when you date someone that you work with that that's just Amplified even

with that that's just Amplified even more and all rules go out the window I

more and all rules go out the window I think the key is try your very very very

think the key is try your very very very best to not date someone that you're

best to not date someone that you're working

working with and at the time I thought I was

with and at the time I thought I was doing a good job I was like oh we broke

doing a good job I was like oh we broke up but like I'm just going to do my work

up but like I'm just going to do my work and I'm going to keep things separate

and I'm going to keep things separate but it's almost it's it's pretty much

but it's almost it's it's pretty much impossible if you imagine breaking up

impossible if you imagine breaking up with someone and then going to see them

with someone and then going to see them in the office every day you know it's

in the office every day you know it's like it you're setting yourself up for

like it you're setting yourself up for disaster so I think it's just best not

disaster so I think it's just best not to do it regardless of how you feel yeah

to do it regardless of how you feel yeah no I think definitely regular breakups

no I think definitely regular breakups are hard breakups when someone else's

are hard breakups when someone else's both careers have impact with the

both careers have impact with the breakup right that's always yeah

breakup right that's always yeah especially when you're kids I was you

especially when you're kids I was you know in my case I was how old are you 26

know in my case I was how old are you 26 years old yeah you're like a you're a

years old yeah you're like a you're a baby I don't know what's going on I was

baby I don't know what's going on I was just optimizing to build a big company

just optimizing to build a big company and nothing and then I was careless and

and nothing and then I was careless and and I made mistakes and think that uh

and I made mistakes and think that uh you

you know sucks but it is what it is it is

know sucks but it is what it is it is what it is and it's been how long now

what it is and it's been how long now maybe it's been 10 years 10 years so

maybe it's been 10 years 10 years so dude it's been 10 years you're married

dude it's been 10 years you're married have two kids you know yeah I have two

have two kids you know yeah I have two kids I've never posted them on social

kids I've never posted them on social media exactly very private um so and and

media exactly very private um so and and literally that's the most

literally that's the most rewarding aspect of life I think

rewarding aspect of life I think universally like having a child planting

universally like having a child planting a seed basically and fostering its

a seed basically and fostering its growth and trying to help it like it's

growth and trying to help it like it's the most

the most selfless it it's the only time where for

selfless it it's the only time where for me where I actually care about something

me where I actually care about something so much more than myself yeah totally

so much more than myself yeah totally totally totally so let's go now in a

totally totally so let's go now in a post Tinder world right like you became

post Tinder world right like you became you know extremely successful investors

you know extremely successful investors under the ground underground and you

under the ground underground and you know obviously made a lot more wealth um

know obviously made a lot more wealth um from after Tinder that you actually made

from after Tinder that you actually made from

from Tinder uh so before actually we go there

Tinder uh so before actually we go there just had some making up to do I lost a

just had some making up to do I lost a lot of equity yeah so give like a

lot of equity yeah so give like a two-minute version of you know what

two-minute version of you know what happened with Tinder you know you we

happened with Tinder you know you we don't need to get into the whole story

don't need to get into the whole story and then kind of what you did after you

and then kind of what you did after you know so basic basically I got kicked out

know so basic basically I got kicked out of the company I lost a meaningful

of the company I lost a meaningful amount of My Equity and then I was a

amount of My Equity and then I was a part-time advisor for a few years after

part-time advisor for a few years after how how much do you think that all this

how how much do you think that all this costed you between getting kicked out

costed you between getting kicked out and the missed opportunity of Tinder

and the missed opportunity of Tinder like how much do you think you would

like how much do you think you would have made uh cost me billions billions

have made uh cost me billions billions right yeah more than one many many

right yeah more than one many many billions if you had kept your equity and

billions if you had kept your equity and kept a business you billions yeah and

kept a business you billions yeah and and there was by the way

and there was by the way also it was my Equity but then there was

also it was my Equity but then there was also we were in a big law suit with IAC

also we were in a big law suit with IAC over the valuation as well so then what

over the valuation as well so then what did you do after you got some money out

did you do after you got some money out of the company what did you do after I

of the company what did you do after I basically was in a position where I

basically was in a position where I could just like be like okay you know

could just like be like okay you know I've my life kind of sucks I got kicked

I've my life kind of sucks I got kicked out of my company but I have all this

out of my company but I have all this money

money and I don't really need to do anything

and I don't really need to do anything but that's not me at all were you more

but that's not me at all were you more successful than your data this point

successful than your data this point yeah yeah but it wasn't it was more like

yeah yeah but it wasn't it was more like the satisfaction like am I going to do

the satisfaction like am I going to do nothing like yeah still

nothing like yeah still wasn't like what I wanted for myself

wasn't like what I wanted for myself monetarily but it just also would be a

monetarily but it just also would be a sad boring life so I basically had to

sad boring life so I basically had to reinvent myself and I didn't really know

reinvent myself and I didn't really know what I was going to do at first it was

what I was going to do at first it was really hard because I was watching

really hard because I was watching Tinder

Tinder and I was watching like critical

and I was watching like critical mistakes that I feel like I would have

mistakes that I feel like I would have never done just like little things you

never done just like little things you know they were spending money on certain

know they were spending money on certain stuff but not even

stuff but not even getting you know the results that they

getting you know the results that they needed to get for doing that they didn't

needed to get for doing that they didn't weren't able to launch product features

weren't able to launch product features things that just seemed very obvious

things that just seemed very obvious there that I I was trying to help

there that I I was trying to help however I could but it was you know my

however I could but it was you know my hands were kind of tied I wasn't I less

hands were kind of tied I wasn't I less than one foot in it was that was

than one foot in it was that was unhealthy it's a very unhealthy feeling

unhealthy it's a very unhealthy feeling imagine

imagine like trying to raise co-parent your

like trying to raise co-parent your child but do it from

child but do it from Zoom part-time you know it just like it

Zoom part-time you know it just like it just doesn't work and

just doesn't work and basically I had a lot of relationships

basically I had a lot of relationships that I had formed as a result of Tinder

that I had formed as a result of Tinder and I had capital I didn't want to give

and I had capital I didn't want to give it to like an investment bank for them

it to like an investment bank for them to to do it for me so I started off

to to do it for me so I started off making private investments in in comp

making private investments in in comp companies i' actually started before

companies i' actually started before Tinder but I I just increased my check

Tinder but I I just increased my check size post Tinder and worked my way up as

size post Tinder and worked my way up as I got more and more comfortable I would

I got more and more comfortable I would write bigger and bigger checks I was

write bigger and bigger checks I was doing really well it was up I was up

doing really well it was up I was up probably over a 20x in aggregate from

probably over a 20x in aggregate from the dollars I invested and I would share

the dollars I invested and I would share deals with really good investors people

deals with really good investors people that I respected and one of those people

that I respected and one of those people basically convinced me to start a fund I

basically convinced me to start a fund I think he had missed is it public who

think he had missed is it public who that is no it's not public I haven't

that is no it's not public I haven't talked about it but um I it's Peter teal

talked about it but um I it's Peter teal yeah so so basically he was just like

yeah so so basically he was just like why don't you start a fund like I'm like

why don't you start a fund like I'm like honestly I don't want to start a

honestly I don't want to start a fund and the reason is he's like why the

fund and the reason is he's like why the reason is I don't want to feel like I

reason is I don't want to feel like I report to someone I want to feel like I

report to someone I want to feel like I could go on vacation for a couple weeks

could go on vacation for a couple weeks my wife's family is in in the

my wife's family is in in the UK and not feel like I need to work and

UK and not feel like I need to work and and he was like I really don't care

and he was like I really don't care about that you can do whatever you want

about that you can do whatever you want and it was like if it wasn't him

and it was like if it wasn't him specifically I would have never started

specifically I would have never started a fund people had asked me all the time

a fund people had asked me all the time but I just was like like can I give you

but I just was like like can I give you money and co-invest with you I'm like no

money and co-invest with you I'm like no I want to be they want the

I want to be they want the responsibility and I just didn't want

responsibility and I just didn't want that and at first I thought it was just

that and at first I thought it was just going to be like an LLC that we formed

going to be like an LLC that we formed that was my money and and Peter's money

that was my money and and Peter's money and then I realized that basically it

and then I realized that basically it was like I needed to create a real fund

was like I needed to create a real fund that was like

that was like SEC regulated filings and stuff like

SEC regulated filings and stuff like that audited financials so then I was

that audited financials so then I was like maybe I should raise a little bit

like maybe I should raise a little bit more so then I ended up I did a small

more so then I ended up I did a small fund which was mostly me and Peter for

fund which was mostly me and Peter for fund one and then I did fund two with a

fund one and then I did fund two with a few more investors and then what

few more investors and then what happened was I deployed like the first

happened was I deployed like the first Fund in nine months and the second

Fund in nine months and the second fund I deployed around 70% of it in the

fund I deployed around 70% of it in the first year and the Market turned and I

first year and the Market turned and I was like wow like if you look at my

was like wow like if you look at my average return at a normal time I'm far

average return at a normal time I'm far outperforming my peers and even during

outperforming my peers and even during this bad time I'm going to outperform

this bad time I'm going to outperform but it's not as good as it's not as good

but it's not as good as it's not as good as it could have been if the market

as it could have been if the market didn't

didn't turn so I increased the fund size

turn so I increased the fund size slightly there's like a short window I

slightly there's like a short window I think there's like a up to a one-ear

think there's like a up to a one-ear period so in the last few months I

period so in the last few months I raised a little bit more but I was

raised a little bit more but I was already essentially 70% deployed and um

already essentially 70% deployed and um I didn't want to invest at that time

I didn't want to invest at that time because I saw a big discrepancy between

because I saw a big discrepancy between private and public markets so I'm

private and public markets so I'm looking at

looking at companies on the private private Market

companies on the private private Market that are like 10 times more expensive

that are like 10 times more expensive than they should be when you're looking

than they should be when you're looking at public comps so then with my own

at public comps so then with my own capital I started investing more I had

capital I started investing more I had always done this but I basically just

always done this but I basically just started spending more time on it taking

started spending more time on it taking meaningful positions in companies that

meaningful positions in companies that were were really beaten up like company

were were really beaten up like company Blue Chip companies I knew would would

Blue Chip companies I knew would would come back but at that time for whatever

come back but at that time for whatever reason they were really really getting

reason they were really really getting crushed and I took sizable positions and

crushed and I took sizable positions and now I have a whole hedge fund my hedge

now I have a whole hedge fund my hedge fund is just my own Capital which is the

fund is just my own Capital which is the same size as my fund it started off with

same size as my fund it started off with a lot less what I did I used options as

a lot less what I did I used options as well to enhance the return we were on a

well to enhance the return we were on a trip in Paris and I was actually getting

trip in Paris and I was actually getting crushed yeah because what I had done I

crushed yeah because what I had done I didn't explain it to you at the time but

didn't explain it to you at the time but I had sold puts on

I had sold puts on stocks right which

stocks right which means that I was a forced buyer at a

means that I was a forced buyer at a certain price at a certain time in the

certain price at a certain time in the future yep I felt comfortable owning

future yep I felt comfortable owning those stocks at those prices right but

those stocks at those prices right but i' had given myself 15 months for it to

i' had given myself 15 months for it to play out and literally three or four

play out and literally three or four months later I like sold puts on

months later I like sold puts on Facebook at 200 180 160 140 where

Facebook at 200 180 160 140 where collected a premium so my cost basis was

collected a premium so my cost basis was lower than those strikes but you know

lower than those strikes but you know let's say on the 200s I collected $31 my

let's say on the 200s I collected $31 my cost basis would be $169 stock is

cost basis would be $169 stock is trading at $90 and I get put all of the

trading at $90 and I get put all of the stock where I'm automatically down

stock where I'm automatically down millions of dollars just upon receiving

millions of dollars just upon receiving it meanwhile on the way down once it

it meanwhile on the way down once it broke 150 I was buying stock and once it

broke 150 I was buying stock and once it went lower I started buying call options

went lower I started buying call options leaps that were like over a year

leaps that were like over a year out I I was down on those leaps

out I I was down on those leaps originally and then I continued buying

originally and then I continued buying all the way down I was down as much as

all the way down I was down as much as like 80% 75% on some of these positions

like 80% 75% on some of these positions and then some of those positions

and then some of those positions became you know a 20x so from the bottom

became you know a 20x so from the bottom it's like the the return was was like an

it's like the the return was was like an 80x or 90x and then I also bought actual

80x or 90x and then I also bought actual calls at that time which ended up being

calls at that time which ended up being like you know 70 80 90 100 times and

like you know 70 80 90 100 times and then I did that with a bunch of a few

then I did that with a bunch of a few other companies where now I have like

other companies where now I have like really big POS I have I still have a

really big POS I have I still have a really big position in Facebook that's

really big position in Facebook that's like over $100 million which you know I

like over $100 million which you know I would have never had if it wasn't for

would have never had if it wasn't for that for the market getting crushed the

that for the market getting crushed the way that it did and me getting put all

way that it did and me getting put all that stuck and so what would you say I

that stuck and so what would you say I forgot if it's say Warren buffer Charlie

forgot if it's say Warren buffer Charlie Monger that said that you know um you

Monger that said that you know um you know you shouldn't trade in options

know you shouldn't trade in options because if you're smart you don't need

because if you're smart you don't need it if you're time um and obviously you

it if you're time um and obviously you know you seem to be very successful them

know you seem to be very successful them like why so I I think that that's really

like why so I I think that that's really referring to short-term options no I

referring to short-term options no I think it's referring to all options but

think it's referring to all options but well if you give yourself it depends

well if you give yourself it depends like I actually would disagree with that

like I actually would disagree with that I think that if you know what you're

I think that if you know what you're doing you have to be lucky also you

doing you have to be lucky also you can't it can't be a long-term bare

can't it can't be a long-term bare Market but it comes back down to Money

Market but it comes back down to Money Management as long as you're not putting

Management as long as you're not putting all your money and you still have powder

all your money and you still have powder on the side you can adjust the position

on the side you can adjust the position to make yourself there things like it's

to make yourself there things like it's always a small amount of dollars a very

always a small amount of dollars a very high upside kind of thing versus like

high upside kind of thing versus like big amount of dollars yeah so then you

big amount of dollars yeah so then you just have to adjust so if you're wrong

just have to adjust so if you're wrong you keep buying what I like to do is

you keep buying what I like to do is actually something

actually something different I don't know I mean it's a bit

different I don't know I mean it's a bit granular but I I buy a lot of calls that

granular but I I buy a lot of calls that are far out of the money but I give

are far out of the money but I give myself

myself time if it goes my way we're good if it

time if it goes my way we're good if it doesn't go my way I actually roll down

doesn't go my way I actually roll down that strike price to a more achievable

that strike price to a more achievable price so let's say with for the sake of

price so let's say with for the sake of Simplicity with Facebook let's say I

Simplicity with Facebook let's say I bought calls at 200 when it went to 90

bought calls at 200 when it went to 90 it could roll them down to like 180 or

it could roll them down to like 180 or 160 you pay a little bit more you're

160 you pay a little bit more you're down on your original position but then

down on your original position but then you lower that price so that it's more

you lower that price so that it's more achievable if the market once it turns

achievable if the market once it turns once the company turns and

once the company turns and then you know and you can also buy

then you know and you can also buy yourself more time so instead of 12

yourself more time so instead of 12 months out you could go 18 months out

months out you could go 18 months out and buy the same strike or double your

and buy the same strike or double your position so you constantly have to

position so you constantly have to monitor it and adjust it but when you

monitor it and adjust it but when you actually really believe in a company it

actually really believe in a company it goes down you should buy more and if you

goes down you should buy more and if you could lower the the goal post and make

could lower the the goal post and make it easier to

it easier to achieve uh I would I would adjust those

achieve uh I would I would adjust those so does that make sense so it's not it's

so does that make sense so it's not it's not

not like it's actually very interesting I

like it's actually very interesting I could talk about this for a while you're

could talk about this for a while you're gonna have a whole podcast podcast about

gonna have a whole podcast podcast about this strategy but it allows you to have

this strategy but it allows you to have Venture likee returns in public

Venture likee returns in public markets right I don't think it' be fun

markets right I don't think it' be fun to make 20 30% on my money if you if you

to make 20 30% on my money if you if you look at the performance in the last 18

look at the performance in the last 18 months I'm up about 30X wow that's crazy

months I'm up about 30X wow that's crazy that's [ __ ] crazy um so you know you

that's [ __ ] crazy um so you know you went from being an entrepreneur to now

went from being an entrepreneur to now like full investor even a hedge fund

like full investor even a hedge fund manager you turned 42 years right yeah

manager you turned 42 years right yeah and what do you see yourself right like

and what do you see yourself right like in your 40s like is it the same thing

in your 40s like is it the same thing you just want to become a bigger and

you just want to become a bigger and bigger hedge fund manager venture

bigger hedge fund manager venture capitalist you think you'll ever build

capitalist you think you'll ever build another company like you is it like

another company like you is it like status quo or something's going to

status quo or something's going to change never Say Never so I I don't

change never Say Never so I I don't really know exactly what the future

really know exactly what the future holds what I do know is if I did nothing

holds what I do know is if I did nothing different than I'm doing today I think I

different than I'm doing today I think I would be happy because basically when

would be happy because basically when when when I find I can I can go back and

when when I find I can I can go back and forth between private and public market

forth between private and public market markets depending on the time so when

markets depending on the time so when something's overvalued or undervalued I

something's overvalued or undervalued I could adjust and then I'm also doing a

could adjust and then I'm also doing a lot of like real estate passive real

lot of like real estate passive real estate Investments so from like a work

estate Investments so from like a work standpoint you know I I need to kind of

standpoint you know I I need to kind of decide if I want to institutionalize

decide if I want to institutionalize what I'm doing take larger amounts of

what I'm doing take larger amounts of capital build a team around me or have

capital build a team around me or have the flexibility of doing what I'm doing

the flexibility of doing what I'm doing now where I'll do you know at the right

now where I'll do you know at the right times raise a fund like right now I may

times raise a fund like right now I may not want to raise a fund but in six

not want to raise a fund but in six months I may want to raise a fund I

months I may want to raise a fund I could raise I could raise 500 million

could raise I could raise 500 million and then and then deploy that over the

and then and then deploy that over the next 18 months and then if I don't think

next 18 months and then if I don't think the timing is right go back to public

the timing is right go back to public markets because I see more opportunity

markets because I see more opportunity there so it's like but you found

there so it's like but you found yourself as an investor like like now

yourself as an investor like like now you've SE as an investor I'm I'm look I

you've SE as an investor I'm I'm look I connect more with Founders so I always

connect more with Founders so I always want to have an element of that in my

want to have an element of that in my life like I kind of think of myself as

life like I kind of think of myself as like the grandpa or the Godfather of

like the grandpa or the Godfather of certain companies where I have big

certain companies where I have big positions I sometimes go and spend the

positions I sometimes go and spend the whole day and help them with product or

whole day and help them with product or help them with whatever they need help

help them with whatever they need help with but then at the you know at the end

with but then at the you know at the end of the day I can go home and just you

of the day I can go home and just you know it's like you take care of the kid

know it's like you take care of the kid I don't want to clean the diapers but I

I don't want to clean the diapers but I want have fun so I'm I am getting the

want have fun so I'm I am getting the best of both world

best of both world and what's

and what's interesting I think when you're

interesting I think when you're investing in companies you're actually

investing in companies you're actually learning a lot more overall because you

learning a lot more overall because you don't have tunnel vision where you're

don't have tunnel vision where you're focused on one thing day in and day out

focused on one thing day in and day out and you you have perspective so I'm

and you you have perspective so I'm learning so much about so many different

learning so much about so many different Technologies and so many different

Technologies and so many different companies all around the world so I find

companies all around the world so I find it really fascinating and I enjoy

it really fascinating and I enjoy watching a company go from like

watching a company go from like essentially nothing to become becoming a

essentially nothing to become becoming a large company and then

large company and then being a part of that Journey will I ever

being a part of that Journey will I ever start a company I don't know if I do

start a company I don't know if I do I'll be way better and way more

I'll be way better and way more efficient with my time yeah to the point

efficient with my time yeah to the point I I don't even take meetings anymore by

I I don't even take meetings anymore by the way I don't know if you've noticed

the way I don't know if you've noticed that but if you if someone tries to

that but if you if someone tries to schedule a call a very rarely scheduled

schedule a call a very rarely scheduled call not more than a few calls per week

call not more than a few calls per week that are actually

that are actually scheduled because that allows me to the

scheduled because that allows me to the flexibility to to have long you know

flexibility to to have long you know multi-hour conversations with Founders

multi-hour conversations with Founders I've invested in or Founders I want want

I've invested in or Founders I want want to invest in and allows me to do

to invest in and allows me to do basically whatever I want freedom of

basically whatever I want freedom of your schedule right full freedom of your

your schedule right full freedom of your schedule like you know how you used to

schedule like you know how you used to have like calls every 30 minutes and oh

have like calls every 30 minutes and oh yeah I hate that yeah it's like what's

yeah I hate that yeah it's like what's the qu quality of life goes down so it's

the qu quality of life goes down so it's like the way that it works with me it's

like the way that it works with me it's frustrating for people because they're

frustrating for people because they're like they want to schedule a call I'm

like they want to schedule a call I'm like uh I always avoid it and then uh I

like uh I always avoid it and then uh I end up calling people on the Fly and I

end up calling people on the Fly and I have an opening and I'm thinking about

have an opening and I'm thinking about them and hope that they pick up and

them and hope that they pick up and uh I noticed that yeah but what I

uh I noticed that yeah but what I realize is everyone picks up if you

realize is everyone picks up if you don't schedule calls and you call them

don't schedule calls and you call them they'll pick up yeah all times too okay

they'll pick up yeah all times too okay it's not as bad as it's not as bad as it

it's not as bad as it's not as bad as it sounds yeah know it doesn't sound bad at

sounds yeah know it doesn't sound bad at all there's sounds like you try to find

all there's sounds like you try to find the things that matter and focus on it

the things that matter and focus on it and not have a lot of prescheduled stuff

and not have a lot of prescheduled stuff and then I have like 10 20 friends that

and then I have like 10 20 friends that I know that I need to schedule things

I know that I need to schedule things with where their schedule is always like

with where their schedule is always like that so that's when I schedule the calls

that so that's when I schedule the calls yeah yeah yeah or first time call has to

yeah yeah yeah or first time call has to be scheduled that makes sense well

be scheduled that makes sense well Justin we're running out time here but

Justin we're running out time here but dude this was awesome I really

dude this was awesome I really appreciate I know you don't do this

appreciate I know you don't do this stuff at all and I really appreciate

stuff at all and I really appreciate doing this I actually enjoyed it very

doing this I actually enjoyed it very much yeah I enjoyed it too you know we

much yeah I enjoyed it too you know we got to spend some more time together and

got to spend some more time together and um and you're good you're good at doing

um and you're good you're good at doing this by the way thank you man I I'm

this by the way thank you man I I'm excited to watch your other interviews

excited to watch your other interviews yeah yeah yeah there there's a few

yeah yeah yeah there there's a few coming out but you know I think this one

coming out but you know I think this one will be a

highlight this was Justin matin the co-founder and Tinder and now prolific

co-founder and Tinder and now prolific investor thank you so much for watching

investor thank you so much for watching HD and HD thanks to our friends at

HD and HD thanks to our friends at Atomic growth for helping with

Atomic growth for helping with production and distribution

production and distribution [Music]

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