The presentation introduces the Viable System Model (VSM), a cybernetic framework for understanding and improving organizational functioning. It argues that current organizational structures, focused solely on anatomy (structure) and physiology (process), are insufficient to handle complexity, leading to systemic crises. The VSM offers a "neurology" dimension – control and communication – derived from biological systems, to enhance adaptability and long-term viability.
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so hello everybody we will be talking
about something that uh I
guess probably none of you or very few
people are already familiar with and uh
that's the so-called viable System model
uh before I start two words about myself
as you can hear I speak a perfect accent
without the slightest English and it's
because I'm a Swiss so once in a while
maybe somebody needs to help me with one
word or other in English I'm 58
consultant since about well more than 30
years active in Europe mainly but also
in Americas and in Asia and my focus is on
on
structure um the Bible System model that
I'm going to introduce you has been
there's many books about it my books
there's one in German there's one in
English and at the end of the today you
get also link if in case you like to
know more about it that would be the
purpose of this session actually to get
you interested in that topic why is it
relevant I would like to start with that
why do I think that everybody nowadays
needs to deal with that model it's not
it's more than a management fed or one
model more about which you could or
could not deal with it the point is the
following uh the point is that I think
we all feel every day that our world
isn't really working uh we are getting
from a situation 20 years ago where we
had many crisis uh the Y 2K crisis the
new economy crisis
911 uh Leman Brothers 2008 crisis
migration crisis climate crisis and so
on today we have multi crisis in society
but we also have more and more crisis in
our economic organiz ation in our
businesses uh and the interesting fact
is that although never in the world was
better educated management more people
that have been well educated as
managers never in the world we had
better science better products better
almost everything more knowledge about
everything more better technology and
nevertheless it's getting worse somehow
and in that situ typically one calls for
better leaders but let's be realistic we
have the leaders we have and leaders can
also become misleaders as history has
shown so I suggest another uh
perspective on the question and that's
my second point I believe that we have a
problem with our organizational
structures which make it very difficult
for managers for leaders uh to do their
jobs uh what is missing organization if
we talk about organization we talk about
structure and process two dimensions and
my hypothesis is this is not enough what
is needed is not something different we
don't need other organizational
structures or other processes even more
agile processes that's not the point the
point is something is missing we need
something additional a third dimension
in organization so to speak and the good
message is that there's a sign behind
this the science is called cybernetics
and that cybernetic has led to a
revolution in Technical Systems since
the 50s so everything we have
nowadays um automation computers even AI
goes back to cybernetics it's the signs
of functioning so to speak and where we
have whereas we have applied it to
Technical Systems we didn't do that for
social systems the social systems are
hungry for it and if we do it that might
to lead to a second revolution over the
technical Revolution also to a
revolution of the functioning of our
social systems be the state be the NGO
be the business be the project whatever
it is so I hope I um raised some
curiousness about what is coming now um
the point is the following we are coming
from a model of the organization that's
based on the machine in the 20th century
and nowadays we're going to to another
perspective on organizations we are
starting to become interested in
biological models because they can deal
better with complexity they're adaptive
resilient uh many other characteristics
and if we look at an organism then we
can see that there is three dimensions
of organizations there is an anatomy
organizational units we find these in
the structure in the orc
charts typically managers talk about
organizations they're taking flip chart
and and drawing orc charts then we have
a physiology in the organism that's a
processes we've been doing a lot about
processes agile and so on in the last 20
years and nevertheless nobody's
satisfied and everybody's asking
yourself well after we defined our
processes agile and we even could do
better but somehow there's it's still not
not
working and if you look at the organism
it becomes clear that there's a third
dimension which is the neurology and the
neurology is so important because we
deal with complexity with our neurology
not with the processes not with Anatomy
that's all needed as well but the
neurology is decisive what is the
neurology it's about control and
communication it's steering it's
mechanisms like coordination
optimization adaptation identity self
steering and so on and so on in other words
whereas at universities we still learn
that organization is about structure and
process I'm using my laser pointer now
to guide you a little bit structure and
processes so organizational units the
anatomy the physiology we need start to
deal with the Neurology of our
organizations the steering organization
the decision structure and the communication
communication
structure and we have a model derived
from cybernetics the model is derived
from our own way of functioning so
that's a nervous system here of a human
being and what you see on the right that
is the model that we're going to deal
with it it's a bionic model it's the
best model that nature has developed
over four billions of years and the idea
is how what can we learn from that idea
for the structuring of our social
organizations if we look at very
different organisms then we can see we
have a human being we have apee a cat
dog a snail even very small organisms
there's always five elements two
principle it's hardly by coincidence
that we can find these similar things in
every or organism is the invariance inv
viability that we can detect here and
that's the idea to structure
organization so that it's viable in the
long run able to maintain and separate
existence in the long run not only doing
business but staying in business in the long
long run
run
now on the left side can you jump can
you jump back can you maybe the the
viable part is clear but what about the
invariance in viability can you can you
explain that again in other
words yes um that's what science is
doing uh uh generally right find the
general in the particular
so what are invariant things for inv for
viability and that was the science
behind it Stafford beer was the inventor
of that model or the found the finder of
the model he found it in very different
organizations so if you take everything
out of these organizations that make
sure that an organism is viable then you
you are coming to these five elements to
steering AIS to this one
principle okay okay mhm so
um here again we have a very simple
model of an organism with an environment
that is surrounding it like an americ
shape here we have the large part of our
brain the middle part small part we have
uh the spine when here we have the
organs muscles heart lungs liver and so
on and if
we are getting close a little bit to the
model you see that we draw the
environment in model on the left side
although actually it's around the model
but that has to do with the steering
relationships that we want to deal with
so our brain is uh steering in its total
environment here and uh the muscles have
their own environment the heart has its
environment and there's coordination
mechanisms and so on and from that the
model is derived in the end so um you
could think that there's five systems
these are the five elements I've been
talking about five systems that are must
be in place in every thing that is
viable be it an organism or be it a
business or be it a project or whatever
and that's a big advantage of that model
that you can apply it to everything that
needs organization whole state and it
has been done to different states you
can apply to the European Union if you
like you can apply to your team you to
your project to uh whatever needs
organization so there's five elements
and what you see as lines here are the
communication channels in 30 years of
Consulting I've haven't seen one
organization that wouldn't say we have
big communication problems and these
communication problems are as difficult
daddies not necessarily bilateral
communication problems but it's about
the interconnection the informational
interconnection of the organization
these are the channels that must be in
place so that an organization is really
functioning and that's the model with
which we can diagnose an organization
say well here we have we have some
pathologies here we have some problems
that we need to solve or also to design
one from
scratch that's the basic model and I'm
going to explain another the
model and I explain what if you look at
organizations through that model some
typical pathologies that we can detect
with it uh if you look at different
kinds of organizations that's what I'm
trying to do and if you like while I'm
developing the model and explain it um
you have a PowerPoint slide in the chat
you can download it and that's the what
the page I'm showing here and you can
take notes about your own organization
whatever that is if you're responsible
for a team appli to your team or if
you're responsible to a project to the
project or a business unit or a division
or you can uh also applied in the
private area if you're working with the
in a football club apply to the football
or whatever uh is of interest for you so
that's uh um how you could uh while I'm
explaining already a little bit think
about and applying it to your situation
if you like yeah um so I try to um send
it in the chat uh for whichever reason
it so far doesn't go through um it
doesn't want to feel I'm Z so there's a
sending deliver mistake yeah I would try
to to send it again if it doesn't work
then just everybody has to take notes uh
in a different in a different way but I
will try to send it Martin yes okay
that's fine so let's start with the
model itself uh here are some familiar
shapes there's the Amic shape of an
environment and the and there's an
operation that's the circle that's what
an organization is doing providing
education mineral water um and whatever
kind of products for the automotive
industry and the box here is the
management box so there's always three
elements environment operation and
management and because we need to say
something about the steering
relationships we draw it in the model
environment on the left side operation
in the middle and management on the
right side and now typically in every
organization we have several of these
these
entities and I'm going while explaining
the model I'm going to applying it to
very small and very large organization
so that you can can get the idea let's
start with a system one out the first of
these five systems the operative
units consisting always of an
environment of an operation and of a
management if you apply that to a family
for example that would be mother father
son and daughter for example right if
you apply to a business we could say
General mode Ms we have Cadillac with
the Cadillac customers the Cadillac
plans and everything and the Cadillac
management and then there's Bo and
there's Pontiac and there's Chevrolet
and so on and so
on if you applied um to a project we
would have the sub projects here and
every sub project has their own task has
their resources the team and they must
have a management that is dealing with
it if you apply to a state like Germany
we have the countries here we have
Bayern and B wenberg B wenberg has its
own geographical environment it has also
its operations like uh the energy
schools and everything that is relevant
and there's a government of p as well as
there's a government for Bavaria and so
on so if you apply to your own situation
the first question is what are my
operative units you can't find them in
your chart because you must distinguish
them from supporting functions like uh
for example in uh in in setf you have an
HR function but HR is not a operative
unit because it's not purpose fulfilling
the system one elements are the ones
with which you fulfill your purpose so
they're doing what the customer pays
for right in a business they must be
able to independently manage the
complexity dynamics of their own
environment like in a family we said in
a family these are the family members I
have a daughter my daughter has her own
environment she has her own operation
she's digesting and breathing by herself
I don't need to do that for her and it's
interesting that organ the Nature has
organized it like that because in
businesses we do it very often not like
that and she has her own management she
has her own will as my wife as myself
that doesn't make the things always very
easy but it's necessary so they need to
deal with their own complexity in a
self-organizing way right
therefore they need High
autonomy their own resources and of
course they surrender part of their
autonomy to the whole must abide by the
greed rules of the game so Bavaria B for
example has everything it needs to be
viable deals with their own complexities
solves their own
problems and nevertheless uh is part of
a larger hole and there are some
restraints uh for its
autonomy now
since we have overlaps in the
environments and since we have always
dependencies between operations because
we we have we're sharing resources for
example um a procurement Department
typically would be an example or a
common architecturing and software
business for example that's restricting
autonomy we dependent on each other and
here when we have for example same
customers in different environments then
we need to coordinate these things also
everything that is orange here needs
coordination and we can exactly detect
for a given organization what needs to
be coordinated and then we ask ourselves
what is our second steering function
remember we talk about the neurology
here the second steering function that
is there to coordinate things to provide
self-coordination oscillation damping
also providing Pro preventing conflicts
for example that otherwise would
arise it involves all supporting
coordinating services and systems is
self-coordination also of the operative
units if they come up with their own
rules and and regulations and so on and
meetings to coordinate
things um examples in a business would
involve planning Control Systems
secretariats meetings committees rules
and regulations guidelines eo's
tradition implicits rule of the games
standards shared services and so on and
so on so we would diagnose in a given
situation and you can do that for
yourself if you draw your system once
for whatever you're applying it ask
yourself where are the environments
overlapping and where are the operations
dependent from each other and what
therefore must be in place to coordinate
these things and to
support the operative
units that is not yet enough it's
necessary but not yet sufficient as the
mathematicians would say so it's the
there's a need for another steering
functions which is the system three and
the system three
is responsible for inside and now of the
whole thing it optimizes the cooporation
between opal units so it makes sure that
the whole is more than the sum of its
parts together we are stronger but that
must be organized synergies are part of
that of
course right the you of experience use
existing uh potential for success make
sure that the high market share is
really also turned over in the in in in
adequate cost structures for example and
decisions are here taken to optimize the
whole thing and here we have
communication channels again that are
restricting the autonomy with exactly
that purpose in a business that would
involve operational planning budget
planning full year targets defining
rules of the game case by case decisions
and C conflicts corporate intervention
compliance and so
on system three so decisions are taken
for the optimization of today's business
in the state that would be the
administration the ex executive the
executive function of a state for
example whereas here we have laws for
example we have culture we have the
socialization of
people um speaking the same language
maybe also even having the same religion
is coordinating people in state things
like that but also of course uh even
more formal
mechanisms executive function in a
family that would be probably uh
decisions about uh um
optimizing uh the the the the time that
you spend together in in a family
optimizing uh things in the short term
and in the existing family it's not
about the future about should we have
another child that are decisions that
must be taken as well but that's will be
a system for function then to look into
the future so system 3 is about inside and
and
now our the the the smallest part of our
brain so so to speak in the organism now
because in decisions are taken to
optimize the whole we need another
function we can learn that from nature
that's the so-called system three star
which is providing real life information
for better decisions in the systems Tre
knowing what is really going on in the
operations not being dependent on the
reporting of the management of the
system on of the operative units not
being dependent on statistics that we
get from support functions uh in the
computer but going there and have a look
by yourself at talk inspections Factory
walks direct contacts with customers of
Staff service mystery shopping of course
also internal auditing service
studies provide unfiltered information
it's an information Channel and not an
intervention channel so it's not about
intervening in the operations because
that's the job of the management here
but no what is going on
here everything necessary but still not
sufficient why not because there's
always a larger environment that's the
businesses you're not doing for example
already or the child that you're not
having yet or the region that were were
you not active in and did that total
environments there's a the green one
there's a specific one which is about
opportunities and threats for your
organization system 4 is dealing with
outside and then with the communication
with the whole environment larger than
the environment of today's
business and then in regards of the
future in a state that would be the
parliaments and the parties and so on
the legislative function in a business
we have strategy development r&t
recruitment technology strategic
marketing communication and so on um in
a family that would be the decisions
you're taking whether you want to
acquire a dog or whether you want to
move to America with the family things
like that who is taking these decisions
is a second question first of all we're
looking at the neurology and ask ourself
whether everything is in place that
these decisions are can be taken and
typically businesses we are very strong
in system 3 management very often weak
in system two very often strong in
system one and typically there's not
enough time in system
four to deal with the challenges and the
opportunities of the future and here in
that Loop here between systems three and
four asking ourselves what is right for
to tomorrow and what is right for today
and how can we take the right decisions
in that interface
because for all for example in the
automotive Industries which is in crisis
again also um nowadays there is the
development of the combustion
engine according to S curves and there's
electromobility coming a new technology
a new solution to the same problem of
mobility and the question is here the
critical decision Zone when do we take
resources out of the existing and
allocated to the new here maybe too
early here maybe too late and since we
see what we can see today the
expectations typically would be well red
curve goes along like that and these are
the people who are just burning our
money that we have earned for crazy
stuff so that's a critical thing and
that has to do with the adaptability and evolution
evolution
and especially in the automotive
industry in Europe that's quite a
challenge nowadays and maybe some faults
have been made um because our system 4
functions that are dealing with that and
the balancing Loop between system 4 and
system 3 did not really work like Kodak
for example they knew that
digitalization will will be IR relevant
they even uh developed the first digital
camera but the management
was chemical driven so to speak the were
all educated as as as chemical persons
so that Loop here didn't work although
they knew it's coming they were not able
to adapt and that's why the company is
still existing but not relevant
anymore and the last element is the
system five and the system five provides
identity and policy it's a normative
function you could also say that's
normative management Strategic
Management operative management if you
would like to make it a little bit e
simpler so to speak
it defines the purpose and identity what
business are we actually really in
what's our mission develops corporate
policies of the decisions that hold
through the long run of the functioning
of an organization because that's just
what we want and what we believe in it
monitors the interaction Mak sure that
that balancing Loop is really working the
the
adaptability and by these channels it's
also deploying their policies policies
means that whatever you will do we
expect as shareholders uh 5% epit from
you for example as just a constraint as
business constraint or whatever you do
in system 4 um we never want to go out
of Europe a normative decision by the
owners of of an organization yeah and uh
system 5 to three whatever you do we
want that you are dealing with your
employees in this way not in another way
or other compy liance topics for
example so that's a system five and now
we have all the necessary and sufficient
functions you
cannot um deny one of these five
elements otherwise you're going to run
into trouble sooner or later and there's
on the other hand also not six and the
Seven function that need to be in place
viability these are the five elements we
have two steering two x steering axis
one is horizontal that's self steering
so Bavaria as a state is steering itself
my daughter has a system one she's
steering herself as my wife and and me
too in a project we have uh sub project
teams that are steering themselves but
we also always have a vertical axis that
allows for cohesion make sure that the
whole thing is aligned at more than the
sum of its parts and we need to be able
to deal with these two steering AES and
Corona situation has shown that we're
not very good with that either like in
China we have a very strong vertical
axis or like here in Europe we have
rather strong horizontal steering axis
and to change from horizontal to
steering what the situation requires is
something that we're not very good in
we're rather good in saying well
ideologically we don't want this and we
want this and other but that's the
meaningless discussion actually we
always need both steering axes and the
situation so here again the five
steering functions that must be in place
these are the decisions that must be
taken right and the two steering axes
and I said there's also one principle
the principle is the principle of
recursivity it's a trick for coping with
complexity remember we talk about
neurology dealing with
complexity and what it means is that if
we have let's say an organization with
four business
units if you look inside one of these
business units with its environment its
operation and its management we must
find exactly the same structure if it's
going to be
viable in one of the other form these
five functions must be in place and very
often managers do it right out of talent
or experience but the advantage of the
model is we can do it right also in a
systematic way without having great
experience or without having talent
because there's not enough talented
people and managers to to do it right in
every organization in this world in
words every viable system is embedded in
a viable system and consists of viable
system like in the fractal structure
with these Russian dolls for example and
by that principle you can
design extremely large and complex
organizations scale it to indefinite
levels you can apply to very small
organization as I said like a team or
you can apply to the European
Union what does it mean if you look at
the European Union European Union has
its own management its own parliaments
its own executive functions and it has
the European countries in here Germany
France uh Poland and so on and if you
look at one of these let's say this is
Germany here if you look at one of these
then Germany again has its parliaments
and its executive functions and its
Constitution and its countries like
bararia Bon wienberg and and so on and
if you look into Bavaria for example we
go one level of recursion down again we
have the management functions and
sometimes at a certain point we end
because we're in the village now and
even the village has an executive and a
system four and the system three and has
its system one functions and then we
maybe can stop because it's not complex
anymore we don't need to organize it
anymore what that means is that
complexity is absorbed where it arises
the principle of subsidiary says that
only tasks that cannot be done on the
lowest possible level are done on the
next higher level so power is this
distributed bottom up rather than
delegated upside down with that
principle that's important for agility
adaptivity viability in the long run for an
organization that's another example you
have a group you have divisions you have
business units and each of them must
have their own Urology each of them must
be viable in their own right if you want
to be an organization that can deal with
complexity so
that entity is dealing with its own
problems and only the problems that
cannot be solved because maybe it's a
common problem would be solved to the
next higher
level how do we apply the model in the
books everything is exp explained it's a
it's a it's a doing book how how to do
it so to speak um there's seven steps
the first step is to deal with operative
units then we have levels of recursion
we need to Define which is the level
that we try to diagnose or
design and
then step two we talk about
manageability flattening question so
that has to do with some uh complexity
equations and can't explain them now due
to the short time but if you're
interested you can read it we deal with
success critical tasks what does needs
to be organized we deal with the
question of what needs to be done
centrally or
decentrally and then we applying it
designing the five steering functions
the communication channels and here also
the interconnection with higher and
lower levels of recursion and in the end
we need to explain our employees how
it's going to work without a slightest
word of VSM because they don't need to
understand the model and therefore we
apply just the typical board uh measures
we have like orc charts job descriptions
functional diagrams racings and so on
how it's going to work so the
representation in the end will be not uh
complicated but in a way done in a way
it the last thing I would like to show
you is now if you look at organizations
through that lens of that model what can
you typically see and there's some
typical pathologies that you can easily
detect with the vi System model and you
will not detect it with work charts or
process descriptions
the first P pathology I have five of
them I think I can spend more five more
minutes and then I I'm done and we can
have some
discussion um the first of these
pathologies I call it dissociation or
the functional organization what you can
see here is an organization where
functions are seen as system once in a
functional organization you have a
research and development production
Logistics distribution manufacturing what
what
else and in that situation we have large
overlaps in the environment and huge
dependencies because nobody can be
successful by their themselves and large
overlaps in the environments because
you're always uh pointing to the same
customer in the end right therefore you
need a very strong system to to
coordinate all of that so that it makes
sense you have very little self
organization capabilities it's even
dangerous if they develop their own independent
independent
strategies because you can only be
successful together that's not what we
want to have in the ideal we have very
little overlaps and very little
dependencies so that we allow for a lot
of self organization and
self-management absorbing the complexity
already on that level in that case
complexity cannot be absorbed here it
must be absorbed here because typically
the Sy systems two are not uh designed
very well system three
has to deal with them uh so to 80% of
the time managers deal with problems
with today's business and with um with
urgent matters and not with the
important matters and the future and the
opportunities because that would be
season for there's just no enough time
to do
that um you get the presentation here
here we have some explanations what's
situation what's dysfunctionality
um typically have a blame game here also
nobody is responsible for anything if
the sales is not going well then they
say well research and development is
their fault and the research development
says no no products are okay but
distribution is not working well so
nobody is responsible for the whole and
there are some easy measures actually to
to change that quite similar the second
pathology I call it
schizophrenia or the metrix organization
here the syst from ones are not
functions but product a product B
product C and then you have also a
second dimension to keep it simple
there's sometimes also matrixes with
three dimensions you have regions region
a region B Region
C and what you can see is again that you
have huge overlaps in the environment
because to be successful product the
management of product a needs the
regions ABC to be successful in other
words we have a diffusion of
accountability because if numbers are
not okay and if I'm the product manager
a I can easily say well it's not my
fault because the regions have not done
they have their own strategy they have
their own self organiz they're steering
themselves and uh it's their fault so
typically huge complexity in these
organizations they only function well if
people Understand Each Other Well very
difficult to be successful in
them huge system to overhead huge
overheads and system three the same
pattern is absorbed with managing today
and provide um solving conflicts
coordinating things and so on so quite a
similar pathology like the functional
organization the third one I call it
cancer currently I'm uh working with
Bosch with IM Mobility company where we
have 10 divisions and they're very
strong 10 divisions in the mobility area
there very strong by themselves which is
very good because they did they they are
viable business in their own right but
to make a Mobility company out of that
that's the challenge and that's why I
call that pattern cancer because it's
growing from uh the cells itself it's
not growing in a in a steered way in a
controlled way the typical situation
here is that you have very low
exploitation of synergies because you
don't have a strong system three you
have potential conflicts with customers
and strategic s shortsightedness because
there's only strategy done here and here
and here but not for the whole
thing and uh what you can do to heal
that is to establish strong
self-regulation coordination mechanisms
in the first place and then involve
management here to start Building
Systems three and system four and system
five for the whole thing so that the
environment that is perceived is not
just today's business but a larger business
dominance would be another one a very
strong system one and very weak others
the company balson for example German
crack producers H not not crack the
crackers sorry for that was a misleading
the crackers um salt or or or sweet
crackers uh it's has been growing in
Germany and then they said we need to be
active also in Spain and in Italy and in
other regions but actually the kept all
the functions in Germany and we're
managing the other ones out of that
system one a situation where decisions
are taken from the German perspective
although for other regions it wouldn't
work and what they didn't realize the
management here they realized of we did
the VSM approach was that as soon as
they build other Regions they're
building a next level of recursion and
the management must move from here to
here because they would be doing the
wrong things
otherwise you they have to move in their
heads in that case they moved also
physically to make it clear um uh what
we're doing is not managing Germany
anymore it's managing the larger recursion
recursion
level and the last well dominance is
always difficult uh these organizations
are always uh if if if you're not
changing it uh they're falling apart
sooner or later also in geopolitics we
have that situation by the way
at the reunion of Germany was uh was
critical in that regard for example it
has been
discussed a lot and the last pathology
is the bottleneck there's many more of
course but that's just to show a little
bit how you can work with the model and
what you can see because all these
things you don't see them by your charts
and you so don't see them when you look
at process descriptions right in that
situation here I had to deal with a CEO
of a of a uh uh midsize company an of
nberg global player very good company
and the CEO told me family own right he
the Heritage from his father uh he told
me Mr fifner excellent company excellent
market share products are are excellent
Abit is excellent everything good just
one thing goes on my nerves and I can't
stand it anymore I um I'm divorced
meanwhile I like to play golf have no
time anymore and I even become seriously
ill recently and that's my division
managers nothing functions without
myself I have to tell them what to do
and therefore that command channel here
the communication channel is
very very strong right okay and then I
was talking to the division managers and
they told me Mr fif excellent company
market share excellent epit excellent
products are good um there's just one
thing that goes on our nerves and we
can't stand it anymore and we will soon
uh leave the the
organization and that's uh the
authoritarian authoritarian boss he
tells us the whole time what we need to
do although he's much too far away from
the business and in the end we are
accountable and we can't be accountable
like that it's not
working after these two discussions we
came together for half day workshop
where we just very briefly diagnosed
their organization with the Bible System
model and it became clear that they have
strong dependencies between the
operations but almost no system to in
place no
coordination the consequence was that
everything that needs to be
coordinated was landing on the table of
the CEO there's no other way somebody
has to deal with it so interestingly the
problem was seen in the persons in the
people where as the actual underlying
problem was not the person it was the
structure it was the combination of
strong dependencies with very weak
coordinating and self- coordinating mechanisms
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