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What Ethereum Will Look Like When It Implements Its New Privacy Focus

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The Ethereum Foundation is actively establishing privacy as a first-class property of the Ethereum blockchain through a dedicated "privacy cluster," aiming to address the growing demand for privacy from both individual users and institutions, and to unlock new use cases.

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One of the like misconceptions that many

people have even just like starting in

the space is like thinking that by

default crypto is private which is not

or it's anonymous and it's not right.

It's pseudonmous. So basically whenever

you do an action on on blockchains like

Ethereum or Bitcoin or most of the other

public blockchains those actions get

recorded forever and that could be like

legal risks that could be personal risk

that could be like financial risk as

well just leaking all your information

and storing it that in a blockchain

where you cannot delete it you cannot

>> Hi everyone welcome to Unchained your no

hype resource for all things crypto. I'm

your host, Laura Shin. Thanks for

joining this live stream, which is

pre-recorded. I should let you know.

Before we get started, a quick reminder.

Nothing you hear on Unchained is

investment advice. This show is

forformational and entertainment

purposes only, and my guests and I may

hold assets discussed on the show. For

more disclosures, visit

unchaincrypto.com. Are you a builder who

needs to add onchain trading to your

product? The Uniswap trading API from

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enterprise level. More liquidity, less

complexity. Visit hub.uniswap.org

to learn more. Today's topic is Ethereum

privacy. And here to discuss are Andy

Kuzman, PSSE lead at the Ethereum

Foundation, and Oscar Torren, technical

lead of the institutional privacy task

force at the Ethereum Foundation.

Welcome Andy and Oscar.

>> Yeah, thank you.

>> Thank you.

So in early October, the Ethereum

Foundation announced that it was

establishing what it was calling the

privacy cluster. A team of 47

researchers, engineers, and

cryptographers coordinated it by block

scout and XI founder Igor Baronov in

order to establish privacy as a first

class property of Athereum. Explain what

the privacy cluster is and what its

mission is. And Andy, why don't you start?

start?

>> Right. So I would say the privacy

cluster is this very focused effort on

trying to make Ethereum more private on

bringing more and making it a default.

So actually the Ethereum foundation has

a long history into just bringing more

researchers engineers into this area.

PSC or privacy stewards of Ethereum is

one of these teams who has been running

from since 2019 exploring new use cases

on privacy on identity at the

application layer, privacy on

reputation, privacy on many different

aspects that I can go deeper later. uh

but this is a renew effort with more

resources with more people into just

expanding and pushing this uh space of

privacy. So the privacy ecosystem on

Ethereum is already very big that they

it needed to have a bit more of like

coordination focus and focus on

different areas that perhaps before we

weren't uh exploring

>> and Oscar um why don't you explain what

the mission is for the privacy cluster.

Yeah. So, IPF is a new team, the

institutional privacy task force and

basically what we're trying to do is

we're trying to get institutions to

build on top of public blockchains like

Ethereum specifically uh with a focus on

solving their privacy requirements. So,

that's basically the mission and I think

that also is very much in line with s of

recent changes at the Ethereum

foundation uh with the sort of new

executive leadership coming in and an

increased focus on sort of ecosystem

developments and so on. Uh so I guess

more broadly at EF there is the protocol

cluster which focused on L1 and then E

equadev cluster and then the privacy

cluster um and IPDF I guess it's a

little bit between sort of mostly in the

privacy cluster but also with sort of

some connections to the ecov cluster and

specifically the enterprise team that

talk to some of the biggest institutions

in the world and I guess what we've seen

is that like it used to be that

regulation was the primary blocker but

nowadays or especially this year in the

last few years private is actually the

main blocker in terms these institutions

moving onchain. Um, yeah.

>> So, privacy has become a huge trend in

crypto as I'm sure you guys are aware

and to me it feels like this wave

started with Zcash back in late

September and then the announcement from

the EF about the privacy cluster came in

early October and I couldn't help but

wonder if it was sparked by, you know,

what we were seeing in the market or if

this initiative had been in the works.

Um, just explain generally how it came

about. So I will say that the renew

focus just started beginning of this

year even with more so it's been like a

long brewing and again as I've said like

the team has been like expanding and

growing and I would say it's just like

very nice timing and convenience that

that the market recognized the

importance so we were already seeing the

the need the adoption the the force I

guess um so perhaps yeah it could have

seen like we kind like reacted but that

but in reality like this team and you

know the blog post the mission

statements the kind of the investment

and road map and strategy has been you

know preparing all this year more

specifically in the last kind like

second half of the year so yeah it's

just like nice coincidence

>> yeah I would echo that and also say like

so in the privacy space and related to

Ethereum for the last seven years or so

I think this has always been a very big

focus like privacy in terms of the

Ethereum ecosystem and uh obviously

projects like Ccash started early and

have done a lot of pioneering work but I

think the Ethereum ecosystem is like

also been very early and building a lot

of these kind of core technical

primitives that are then being used and

creating these kind of uh new verticals

if you will like like if it's CK ID or

uh CLS or CQM and all of these things.

Uh and I think historically also going

back to what Andy mentioned is that PSC

used to be kind of its own organization.

So it's already been like a massive

effort funded by the Ethereum

Foundation. I think what is new this

year is that it sort of focuses mission

mission a little bit and focusing on

privacy on Ethereum specifically and not

sort of privacy broadly in in sort of

the ecosystem. So I think that is the

main shift. Uh so it was very much like

a proactive thing and and whatever's

been happening uh recently. That's more

of a coincidence I would say. Yes.

>> Okay. I didn't I don't think I knew that

before. So privacy stewards of Ethereum

started as a separate organization and

then it kind of got folded into the EF.

>> Right. it has always been um part of or

supported by the Ethereum Foundation but

it operated a bit more externally and I

think that makes sense in that earlier

years because like the primitives like

the creativ kind kind of like creativity

or most of like kind of like just um

needs or explorations where it made

sense but right now it it made a lot

more sense to kind of like refocus 100%

on the Ethereum space and not as broadly

and also to just better connect and

collaborate with the rest of the

Ethereum Foundation teams that existed.

>> Okay. And so explain what PSSE is and a

little bit about the history.

>> So PSSE is a group of teams uh

collection of teams that focus on

bringing privacy and it its history span

from I guess 2019 2018 where it started

with a small group of cryptographers and

cryptographers researchers and engineers

exploring this new frontier that was

zero knowledge proofs. So it started

with uh experiments on private

identities, primitives and libraries and

and applications in which you can prove

your identity with that you were part of

a group without revealing all the

details of yourself. And this um

experimentations were looked by by the

Ethereum Foundation and basically

started supporting this team into

growing from 1 2 3 up to I think almost

like 50 60 um or 80 at some point. So

it's it started as a team who were kind

like one of the first teams exploring um

roll-ups that like the one of the

systems that that Ethereum uses for

scaling. Um the first team or within the

the PSC the first people who explored CK

EVVMs so also one of the main kind of

like scaling strategies that Ethereum

uses um the team that supported TLS

notary which is the pioneer in all that

we call CKTLS. So all these space in

which we can like make proofs about TLS

connections and it just like and a bunch

of other example like those that

basically just expanded the use cases

that we can bring to Ethereum. So before

PSC was uh broadly you know exploring

all these use cases in both privacy and

scalability. So that was what what it

used to stand for and now it's 100%

focused on privacy for Ethereum.

>> Okay. And I would also say that um it

used to be that because so much of this

was like cutting edge research and at

the time we didn't even know if it was

possible to do any kind of have any

meaningful impact there. But I think

what ended up happening is that there's

been so much development in actually

making these tools practical and we see

that now in the industry as a as a whole

and I think ether information has played

a big part in making that even possible

and that also has led to this like

renewed focus in terms of uh actually

bringing this into production and and

more having a larger impact beyond sort

of smaller uh R&D toys kind of thing.

Yeah. And then is the institutional

institutional pol why why do I keep

saying that institutional privacy um

initiative is that or or whatever it's

called institutional privacy task force

is that within PSSE is that like a group of

>> it's within the privacy cluster and it's

but it also has close collaborations

with for example the enterprise team at

inadev yes

>> okay and how did that get started >> sorry

>> sorry

>> how did that get started

>> so that get started uh I guess only two

or three months or so we have talked

about it a bunch I think what ended up

happening is that as Eve sort of did the

structuring and there was more focus on

being someone that that institutions and

enterprise should come to and have

someone to talk to. Um it became very

very clear and especially now with like

stable coin acts and and things in the

genius bill or Mika like all these

things are happening in US and Europe

and Japan Hong Kong sing all this

regulation all this clarity that has led

sort of renewed uh interest from

institutions and it's it's sort of

painfully clear that the main blocker

for them is like the need for privacy.

So it became very obvious that we needed

to do something about this because the

enterprise team is great in terms of

being able to have these initial

conversations with these major

institutions but we have this very

amazing R&D lab at PC and all these

amazing resources and we basically try

to connect the two dots. So whereas

historically it's been purely focused on

more sort of individual like cypher punk

privacy now we're also trying to

recognize that like there's other actors

that need privacy and we can also be

very useful to them. Okay, so let's talk

about why it is that privacy is

important in crypto and you know this is

the kind of thing where sometimes I feel

like people in the US in particular um

they may not understand it but I would

love to hear you know why you think it's

important for crypto to be focused on this

this

>> maps are just for individuals right so

one of the like misconceptions that many

people have even just like starting in

the space is like thinking that by

default uh crypto is private which is

not or it's anonymous and it's not right

it's synonymous um so basically whenever

you do an action on on blockchains like

Ethereum or Bitcoin or most of the other

public blockchains those actions get

recorded forever and that could be like

legal risks there could be uh personal

risk there could be like financial risk

as well just leaking all your

information and storing it that in a

blockchain where you cannot delete it

you cannot edit it right so that is just

like a huge need for for users and I

would say like all these cypher punk

movement all these like start of this

industry came from self-s sovereign

individuals and had like really strong

ties to you know privacy technology in

itself. So as as I've said like it has

always been the case that privacy has

been important but perhaps the tools

just lack more ma maturity just in order

to kind of like reach this inflection

point of like one like we need it and

two it's possible it's getting you know

easy to use it's cheaper to use and and

just basically it seems to be like the

inflection point for for individuals to

use it is it's coming now right um and

and we can see also the market and we

can see kind of like the attention but

at the end of the days uh has always

been the case where where privacy and

and having the freedom and the power to

control who sees what from your

information and your assets is it it it

goes back to kind like the core values

of of these movement I would say.

>> Yeah. And I would also say like yes

there's definitely this like it comes

from this sort of cyber punk origins and

so on and and sort of privacy and the

connection to freedom and self-

sovereignty. Uh I would say it's also

like very practical in the sense that if

you look at various hacks that happened

or or for example ledger when addresses

got leaked it had like very real world

consequences in in terms of like

people's address being being leaked and

that was like led to actually physical

attacks. Uh so I think people

recognizing it's more and more

important. Uh I would also say that like

when we took it think about something

like cash if I buy a coffee here uh they

can't see my entire sort of my my income

or or or my assets. I just they all they

know is like this bare asset like cash

and I think we have things like banks

bank systems and they have similar

properties but obviously they can be

censored and they have all these other

problems associated with them. So what

we have with with uh public blockchains

like Bitcoin Ethereum they're great in

terms of being digital and

permissionless and so on but as Andy

mentioned they are sort of transparent

by default which means you can actually

sort of track things and so on and what

we're trying to do is kind of regain

those properties that are more like

cach-like properties. Um, and I would

also say to your point that it's maybe

not as valued in for a lot of people in

developed countries like US and I'm from

Sweden, it's definitely seen as less

less of a problem, but I would say in

lots of parts of the world, there are

more adversarial circumstances where

where it matters a lot more. And I think

as the the world is moving more towards

using blockchain technology, even even

you see attacks in like Paris and and

Miami, it's it's it's very much a real

problem. I think people are waking up to

that as more and more assets move on

chain. Uh, and then there's also the

institutional side which is separate in

terms of what they need privacy for. Yeah.

Yeah.

>> And I'm sorry when you say Paris and

Miami, are you talking about

>> I'm talking about like various attacks

that happened uh and uh

>> like wrench attacks.

>> Yeah. Yeah. >> Okay.

>> Okay. >> Like

>> Like

>> um and you know for you said you know

Ethereum's been working on this for a

few months or really you said all of all

of 2025. Um are is that because like

you're seeing demand from people or is

it just like you know Ethereum is

working from ideals and like what it

would like to become or is it that like

people are actually requesting this type

of feature?

>> So I'll say definitely both. So again

there's a rich history of this but it

definitely seen a pickup about the right

moment of how technology matures and how

you know institutions demand it and how

just in general there's like a renewed

sense of of need I guess in the in the

ecosystem. um of of just re-emphasizing

these properties. So um how I've been

seeing is like the Ethereum ecosystem

has focused a lot and is focusing a lot

on on scaling focus a lot about on

usability on maturity all the technical

you know stack of the layers and it just

seems now that like a good breakaway

case again uh will be like just turning

privacy into like a day-to-day actions

>> and I would say yeah definitely on the

individual case uh and on the

institutional side we're definitely

seeing a lot of demand like this is

their blocker like they do want to move

on chain and they want to move to

Ethereum specific but they're not sure

about how to get the privacy properties.

So that is just like they need it. It's

not a question of like oh maybe it's

like they need it requirement.

>> It's a table stakes requirement for

institutions where if they don't either

they don't meet regulation or there's

like big financial or business risk

right of losing all their practices

their client their >> Yeah.

>> Yeah. >> Yeah.

>> Yeah.

>> Yeah. And do you have a background where

you worked with banks in the in the past

or what were you doing before at the

>> uh so I worked in like finteon I I come

similar solutions and create these kind

of feedback loops where if a vendor or a

set of an approach is a perfect fit for

institution then we can say this uh to

the institution and to the extent that

some things are missing we can also

highlight that ecosystem and say this is

what institutions are asking for uh and

I would also say the reason that

institutions come to us and why this IPF

team sits at at the Ethereum Foundation

is because we can be credibly neutral.

Uh we are basically responsible for the

Ethereum ecosystem and we're trying to

onboard people onto Ethereum and then we

are neutral when it comes to vendor

choices and so on. Um so that's like

where a lot of the focus for IPv has

been and we had like a few workshops

with major institutions where they are

exploring uh maybe a stable coin or

bonds or real world assets or something

like that and they have a specific set

of questions um and it might be the case

that they get um

approached by like a BD function at some

other from some other ecosystem and they

know some things but they might be a bit

confused and we try to like sort of

clarify for them like here's what's

happening here's what's possible today

here are the trade-offs, here's how you

should think about it. And that's kind

of how we approach it. Uh with the goal

of eventually then moving on chain.

>> Okay. So now let's talk about the

specific um you know approaches to

technology like the different sorry to

privacy the different technologies that

you are you know considering and like

how you would apply them. You know which

uses cases you think certain um

technologies are more appropriate for or

even you know demographics potentially.

Um, yeah, and I know there's probably

trade-offs with each one. So, I'd also

love to hear like how you think about

that aspect

>> for for each approach.

>> Right. So, I would say like first is

like mapping what are the use cases,

right? What? So, for example, the I

would say like most people when they

think uh privacy and crypto, they think

of uh private transactions like sending

money to another one and private DeFi at

least within the Ethereum ecosystem. So

within private transactions there's like

at least from like an initial mapping

that we did like at least 12 different

families or approaches of technologies.

Um so things like uh mixers and shield

pools are technologies that are already

like zero knowledge based and they have

some properties that gives really strong

anonymities depending on how much usage

they have. Right. Um there are things

like um proof of burn which is more u

experimental newer technologies that

allows to kind of like again do a

private transaction but by using

leveraging other type of primitives that

basically doesn't need funds to be mixed

together. Um it's like hasn't been

battle tested. There still not needs to

be some maturity for this technology but

it gives like a very nice exploration

about some different paths that the

ecosystem can take. There's this other

one called stealth addresses which

basically generates a new address each

time you receive funds and that is more

similar to the UTXO model u that maybe

other other chains like are more

familiar and what this allows you is to

unlink um the the different addresses

that you have. So it's a bit of um

privacy for the receiver. So if you

combine all these technologies uh and

there's other ones right like FHE based

or homorphic encryption based that

allows you to send um funds and you know

the sender and the receiver but you

don't know the asset and the amount that

gives you confidentiality. There are

others which are based on hardware um

considerations like TE or trusted

execution environment. So that allows um

again to just be very programmatic about

what you can share and what you want to

encrypt and decenc

authentication layers and authorization

layers. There's uh multi-party

computation um or MPC which is like a

way to operate into you know uh reduce

set of parties. So if your use case

requires you know less amount of

participants maybe MPC is is a good is a

good fit. And there is fullyomorphic

encryption which is um how do you

operate privately or in in encrypted

data over a server. Um so all of these

have kind of like are are strong

cryptographic primitives or I will say

like families of technologies that are

very powerful some some use cases. If I

were just to say kind of like the key

differences or how you could kind of try

to categorize them is like you will be

doing trade-offs across um cost like how

much you pay to use them across uh speed

like how much time you need uh to do a

transaction to keep certain levels of

privacy. Um the other one is user

experience. So one are more complicated

than others. Uh there are things about

trust assumptions like how many people

need to collute to um take out your

privacy and and privacy guarantees and

again like institutions and perhaps like

other type of users might prefer

technologies that that they can kind of

rely more on hardware that are more

permission that are more compliant

versus other type of users uh perhaps

for daily payments. they just want

something that is cheap and that is easy

to use um and they don't care to be like

extreme privacy and there are others

which is like I don't know high netw

worth transactions where they want like

maximum privacy but they run like on

mobile phones right so that is where

like at least these different families

of technologies complement to each other

and I would expect as we mature that we

can better categorize and surface those

trade-offs and at the end of the day

probably combine some of these to have

like end to end privacy which is right

uh fit for the right type of user.

>> Yeah, without add to that like it's very

much cuz it's applied cryptography. So

there's a lot of various techniques and

you can combine them in all kinds of

ways and it can get kind of gnarly when

you get into the details like if you

have a roll up for example that the

proving system you would use is very

different from if you're trying to do

some CK solution that has to run on your

phone. So it's very different depending

on the deployment and also the specific

like threat model and so on. Mhm.

>> Um and yeah, there's also things when it

comes to more metadata privacy, if it's

onion routing and and mixes, there's a

lot of different technologies and I

think as Andy mentioned, they sort of

they differ in terms of security and

trust assumptions and and performance as

well as like just technical maturity as

well. So depending on there's a lot of

very promising resources are happening

now that might only be actually widely

deployed in a few years from now and

that's just a natural cycle of things

just like proofs used to be this thing

that was more of a research problem like

five five 10 years ago and now we're

seeing it more and more widely deployed

and you have similar things going on

with FH where it might take a little bit

longer to sort of reach its full majority.

majority.

>> Okay. Yeah. I mean, just listening to it

all, I'm I'm just aware that it's in a

way it's like you're going to create so

much optionality and then there will be

multiple combinations that people can

use to, you know, achieve their goal.

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I actually wanted to work through some

of the different ways at least these

were the ones that were outlined in the

blog post um to get more detail. So um

the first one was private reads and

rights. Explain what that is um and yeah

how it's being resolved or or like the

different ways that you're approaching that.

that.

>> Mhm. So private reads I will say is all

these um privacy that you want to ensure

whenever you query the blockchain. So

whenever you read the blockchain so if

this was a book um you don't want people

to know which pages you are reading

particular or which sentences because

you might leak information about who you

are and what you are interested or are

your intentions. So again we can also

mention this as metadata privacy. uh

private rights will be whenever you take

an action like you know writing or

whenever you do any action on the on the

on the chain right so things like voting

things like um delegating things like

purchasing NFTs tokens things like doing

transactions things like DeFi all of

these um will have your actions recorded

forever. So you would want uh these

actions to have some level of privacy so

they cannot been linked back to uh your

address or your intentions or even like

you know your your your your persona. Um

so I will call this like more onchain

privacy and the third one or or track

that we have at least within PSC we call

private proving uh which is like all

these elements and libraries uh which

allows you to kind of like port data

from web 2 into the web 3 world. So for

example, if you have a driving license,

if you have a a bank account and you

want to prove that you have more than

certain amount of funds in your bank

account, you can already prove this with

technologies that you know we're

developing and the Ethereum ecosystem as

a whole is developing to port over these

things and and a bunch of other kind

like necessary technical um

explorations, benchmarkings and and and

and efforts that we're trying to do to

make these things usable for the

day-to-day users. So not only these

things will run in like big servers and

big you know computers but rather they

need to run in your phone in your

browser in your laptop in you know

normal day-to-day you know hardware I

would say and I would say it is also

very much uh in line what you see of

with blockchain that is about like

removing trusted third parties and and

you can think of it almost like as a way

to sort of scale society that if you

have as you have fewer dependencies

fewer things you have to uh oh do I

trust this party or do I need to have a

legal contract or something like that

it's more that you're trusting the math

as opposed to humans and policies. And

as you do that and especially as you do

business across multiple jurisdictions,

it sort of simplifies things because as

long as someone has proven that this

works correctly and and you trust that

it the code is secure, you can actually

rely on it as a building block. And it's

that's a major thing with for example

private proving that you can have this

data provenence and you instead of

trusting some custodian uh like some

corporation to sort of deal with uh your

your KYC data whatever that easily gets

hacked. We see that like every every few

months that passport data gets leaked or

gets hacked or all these things, right?

So we're trying to remove that and

basically have these building blocks

where we can create proofs and use that

sort of to build better systems

essentially. Um and that's kind of

similar to how internet works as well

like where you started everything was in

clear text and HTTP and it was like a

fight the all the crypto wars in '90s

and then eventually everyone oh this

actually a great idea we want HTPS

because that's how you do payments

online otherwise you can't buy something

from Amazon and just like natural now

people take it for granted you don't see

sort of the green marker for HTBS that

is like now every browser enforces it

right so it's just taken for granted and

I think we see a similar things here

with public blockchains and just

creating things being more secure and

something that you don't have to think

about. It just kind of works under the hood.

hood.

>> And out of curiosity, is that something

that financial institutions are like

interested in because then all of a

sudden they don't have this honeypot of

data or is it something that they're a

little bit wary of because then it gives

them less control.

>> It's a good question. I think it depends

on the institution. I think ultimately a

lot of them they have a very mature

business and they they know how this of

the business works and the value they

provide and that very much fits into

these building blocks because what they

want these are major m institutions and

they they want a secure system. They

don't want to just rely on you know some

random vendor or whatever. They don't

want all the access to be public. They

for them it's very important that like

they're if they do issue a bond or trade

it they don't want to leak all that

information and they want to have

minimal sort of trust assumptions on on

that they I think a lot the way a lot of

the the way a lot of major institutions

and companies think about is that they

it's like a question of risk like what's

the worst case scenario and who am I

trusting and so on and if you can remove

this kind of arbitrariness and have it

be like okay this is actually proven

that this works that's amazing for them

right because they can create even

bigger products that serve sort their

their customers. So I think it it very

much fits. It's just a matter of like

the trade-off space looks a little bit

different because they are operating in

a regulatory environment. So they have

to abide by all of that and they want to

integrate with their exist systems and

they also have very high requirements

when it comes to throughput and stuff

like that. So this is like a different

point in the trade-off space I would say.

say.

>> Okay. Um I'll cover the remaining points

that were in the blog post. One is

private identities.

>> Can you talk a little bit about like you

know what that is and yeah why it's

important. So private identities is like

as we move more online and we need to

prove certain facts about ourselves

whether that be like our age or our

residency or you know nationality

there's has been even like massive push

worldwide uh to try to get access to

different you know websites in the

states in Europe. Um and although it

might come from like the right you know

intention from many of these regulators

it does possess like a huge risk right

whenever you add as as we're talking

about more KYC like know your customer

like you are leaking your information

everywhere and it's much easier to

impersonate it's much easier to know

like um you know risky details about

your you know you online so this push

will be like how can I make zero

knowledge proofs in particular and and

prove specific facts about me without

disclosing all this information without

me having to send the document a picture

on or everything right whenever you

check into a hotel whenever you buy I

don't know some airplane ticket whenever

you want to apply for a financial

product those are very risky actions

that right now we have normalized but

you know in an ideal state we don't need

to leak all this information we just

leak yes I'm over 18 yes I'm not from a

sanctioned country or yes whatever right

so I will try to differentiate like the

projects here like green field or and

and brownfield right so green field or

brownfield is like there already

existence there already identity digital

identity skins that exist in countries

so for example in the country of India

uh that the skin is called adhar or the

program and there's like 1.3 billion

users you know having uh very used to

just using their cards and and and and

verifying online and that's not very

private so it's like how can we retrofit

these systems and add uh zero knowledge

proofs and other type of technologies so

they can just prove online that they are

a specific state or a specific vendor or

whatn not uh without leaking all the

rest of the information. So there's like

some efforts there. Um um there's a

project called Anonadhar. There's

projects for the in the country Taiw in

Taiwan. There's projects in many

different parts of locations. At the

end, anything that is signed can be used

as a building block. So you can like

retrofit and add privacy to it. But then

there's also like green field which what

we call is like governments who want to

start from scratch or want to improve

the current system. And a really great

example that um is the kingdom of

Bhutan. And there's like a very

forwardthinking you know kingdom uh that

basically is trying to provide uh the

most secure most sovereign uh digital

identities to their citizens. And they

built uh their digital identity system

on top of Ethereum. So they use Ethereum

as a way of like trusted registry where

you know you can know that things signed

with this key match to I don't know

official documents from the kingdom

Bhutan but then these these identities

can be ported over in your can be

carried on your personal phone and can

generate proofs and can you know

generate facts about it. Um actually

Google also released their own stack um

a few months ago earlier this year and I

know uh Microsoft as well. So there's a

trend right there's a real need about

having strong privacy preserving um

digital identity systems and CK or zero

knowledge is like a great technology to

build things whether is retrofitting or

building from scratch and I think

Ethereum or blockchains in general are

also a great thing as a trust register

or as an anchor point for many of these

use cases

>> and what so how does the the identity

get connected to the person because like

what if my like provable identity gets

hacked and then you know like a random

person who's not me claims to be me but

they have the proof right

>> like yeah how how can that

>> right that's a great question and I

would say those are all design decisions

and part of like the schemes that you

want to do so two things that are

usually used uh or done in this domain

is like uh one is like shortlive or

single use proofs or like and the other

one is revocation so if you get your

passport stolled um you go to the

embassy or you go to whatever police

station and the same case with a digital

identity and you um yeah basically file

a report. So very similarly the in in

the future even in the current space you

would do the same and you would um have

either a list of revocations like a

revocation list. So whenever like the

the the person who who steal you your

your identity wants to use it uh the

check will fail because now this

specific identity will appear as part of

the revocation list. And there's just

like very clever tricks to how you can

check that somebody you know has lost

their password but without leaking all

the information from that person. And

the other one is like in revocation

there's also um expiration dates. So

documents also need to have some

expiration dates uh because it's very

common right that over the the span of

your year of of your life you'll have to

you know renew documents. So um I don't

think that will change that often but

those are the two techniques in the in

the shortlived proofs is like I need to

prove that you own like the original

document and there are ways how to like

design systems so that I do a livveness

check and I also know that you know the

person who is presenting this proof is

actually the same person who who is in

the identity who appears whether that be

with ser knowledge machine learning to

kind of like make a proof of of the

photo on your document matches with your

face without leaking all this

information to to the servers and the

companies. So there's like a lot of like

research and maturity that is going on

but already like concrete uh use cases

that that can be used in production. And

in addition to what Andy said, there's

also this thing about and we see this

also with with Ethereum and Bitcoin and

all this uh public cryptocurrencies that

you have this keep key material, right,

that you have to keep secure. And I

think it started off kind of it was a

bit hard and you had things like

hardware wallets, but now the UIX is

improving more and more. So for example,

you can you can ti tie it to your

device. So you use kind of face ID and

pass keys and all of these things. And

there's more things like multiix and you

can lock it for a certain period of

time. And there's things like social key

recovery where where you can basically

say if three out of my five friends or

or or contacts if they attest that this

is me I can get access. So I think what

we're seeing is it's like a massive

level up in terms of use experience for

how to deal with this key material

because as we move into more and more

digital world and more and more sort of

self- sovereignty it's very important

that you sort of keep this secure but

needs to be useful by anyone not just

like very people who are very deep in

technology and it's it's in a way way

better state than just a few years ago

and I think you can see this in various

types of wallet efforts and so on. Okay.

So another um one listed in the blog

post was privacy experience. I don't

even know what that means. So can you

explain that and

>> Right. So historically privacy has been

a very difficult topic to to use uh for

end user for normal person you know in

in the street like just trying to learn

how to use these systems, how to keep

you know your key secure, how to not

leak information and even just using

some of the of of many privacy

protocols. It's a lot of hassle right.

It's a lot of like understanding the

terminologies, understanding the

trade-offs. So, privacy experience was

or is this effort of trying to

understand where are we in the current

maturity line and what are things that

we can do to increase the the user

experience without degrading the privacy

and the security that we have in the

current systems. So things that like um

analysis of like the flow of just

usability, right? um things like uh

terminologies and language as what you

were saying like icons that in in you

know a few in small images can really

depict like key concepts uh so to make

people aware about the different

trade-offs and the actions that they're

taking. So as much as like privacy is a

technology problem, it's also like a

social adoption uh problem or like

opportunity, right? So we need to

educate, we need to learn how to relate

with these new technologies. So the

human aspect is also like very important.

important.

>> Yeah, I think it's like it's partly like

a literacy problem, right? Right. just

like maybe have people from an older

generation and just like how to use

internet, how to spot like fake news and

like all all of these kind of things

that are like skills that you also need

to acquire and that that's very much a

part of it. Um but also as Andy said

very much about sort of the use

experience like how do you make it

easier for people to use and

traditionally been a bit of a disconnect

because it's very hard to reason about

privacy guarantees like that is a fairly

technical uh and a fairly new thing to

to think about. So you have people are

extremely technical and they talk a

language like maybe hopefully not too

much for your listeners with all this

name dropping I'm doing but there's like

a certain language that people how

people talk about these things and

that's disconnected from how normal

people live their lives and you're

trying to sort of make that that

connection. Part of that is definitely

education. Part of that is like

metaphors or like visual indicators and

I guess ultimately having empathy for

for the end users and and making systems

that work better for them. And so um now

we get to the institutional privacy task

force which was also listed and when I

saw that I was like this one like just

even the word it sounds different from

the other ones and I realized like for

in my head it just sounds like there's

probably a whole component that involves

like regulation and compliance. So it's

like probably quite a different

>> um yeah focus area from the others. So

can you explain?

>> Yeah sure. It's it's different

absolutely I would say the way you can

think about regulation and and

compliance zone is it's it's more like a

different constraint right so the you

use the same kind of building blocks and

same primitives that sort of PCM and

other people in ecosystem has been put

in for a long time uh and

the situation is evolving right like I

think a few years ago is really the wild

west and there was no regulation

whatsoever and it was really hard for

established institutions that are

operating in a specific jurisdiction to

sort of uh even stop to think about

these things. But what we're seeing now

is that more and more there are sort of

some regulatory clarity and some

attempts to make sort of

these legisl uh legislative efforts and

regulation fit better with sort of the

sort of cryptonative side of things. So

we're in a much better spot now than we

were a few years ago. There's definitely

like a lot of work to be done on the

policy side and so on. So it's

definitely not work in progress, right?

uh but for example things like stable

coins and so on now there's at least

some kind of regulatory clarity and that

is just like another type of requirement

and I think you can accommodate both

especially with Ethereum being a sort of

credibly neutral uh base layer you have

both these sort of more extreme cyber

punk hardcore use cases on top but also

these kind of more uh regulatory and

compliance kind of solutions and they

they basically co coexist uh and because

the technology is so flexible in terms

of proof and so on. You have way more

affordances now than you had a few years

ago. So you can actually design the

systems to accommodate these more

complex uh workflows where where for

example auditors needs access and and uh

you want to make sure that you meet all

the sort of regulatory requirements uh

that institutes operate under.

>> All right. So the last one listed as an

area that you guys were working on um as

part of this initiative was Kohaku.

>> Um explain what that is.

>> Right. So, Kohaku is this uh good effort

to try to bring privacy to wallets and

make it much easier for wallets to

adopt. So, it's like a reference

implementation um and an an integration

about many different privacy protocols

that exist currently on the Ethereum

ecosystem into an SDK. So, like a

software developer kit that other

developers uh building wallets or

building other type of protocols can

just take and very easily integrated.

And I think this is great because it

just lowers the cost of adoption for

privacy technologies for all these

different providers and companies and

just like it's a good way to distribute

technology but at the same at the same

time it's like a good way to set a

standards set a reference set of like a

goal about what would be the perfect

most secure you know more private most

like no uh yeah intention or effort into

like into the wallet um privacy. So the

intention would not be to for the

Ethereum Foundation to run you know a

wallet and try to get uh end users and

try to you know get adoption because

that's much rather uh something that we

would like the ecosystem to run and do

you know business with but it is a good

effort to push into the right direction

and implement primitives like that the

ones I was mentioning and even like the

rest of the ecosystem have like a a

point of you know connection and adding

and and help push standards. So like it

makes it easier a lot easier for

builders and to you know take these

technologies and for users to then more

quickly adopt all of these technologies

>> and I would add to that like in the sort

of web two world like developing of a

product is like difficult and so on and

then you add this kind of you know

blockchain and smart contract and that

component it's like a specific set of

skills right and I think the same thing

goes for privacy tools like it is a very

different world like how you write

scenario proof circuits and so on and

how do you integrate that into a product

is not trivial. It's it's requires

specific expertise and if you have a

wallet and you're trying to sort of

serve your users and and provide some

value that is kind of scary because it's

not always easy to do that. So I think

what Kirk is also doing is is showing

how you can do it. It's showing examples

of it. Um, and I think another thing is

that there's all these amazing uh

resources and and open source products

and so on that exist in the space, but

it's not always obvious to people like

how do you put them together and like

what do they actually provide in terms

of user experience and what Kohak is

doing is taking all of these primitives

that have been developed over the last

few years and putting them all together

into a package. People can see visually

how does this actually fit together and

I think that's very exciting for end

users as well as uh uh wallet developers

because they can see oh this is actually

how you combine them. And actually I

think we see some of the things but in a

completely different domain when it

comes to institutions where uh

Ethereum ecosystem is such a broad it's

like a jungle there's like a there's so

much going on right and they don't know

how to make sense of it all and like how

do you put these things together so

that's also what we're trying to help

with in this map mapping effort and

showing here's how you combine all these

things and here's actually this provides

a superior experience to whatever you

considering so yeah

>> so I want to zoom out a little bit and

look at privacy in crypto generally

>> and I was kind of curious like you know

as we mentioned at the beginning of the

show things like Zcash suddenly just you

know everybody you know it's like all

the coins are going down but Zcash Zcash

is not going down like you know we've

we've seen that the last few weeks

>> um and I don't know like you know

traditionally I think like most people

have thought Ethereum is kind of

competitive with these other all layer

ones where you know it's like this whole

smart contract competition um but do Do

you view something as Z like Zcash is

just fundamentally different because

it's like more like Bitcoin, it's more

focused on payments or do you think that

Ethereum is also competing with that or

do you feel like Ethereum is kind of

creating something brand new where it's

like bringing privacy to smart contracts

and there's like many more applications

or just like how do you think about you

know what you're seeing in terms of

other privacy efforts in crypto and

where Ethereum fits in with that? So I

guess just briefly on Sika specifically

I think that they are very see and

ethereum are very much philosophically

aligned and the communities especially

this privacy part of of the Ethereum

community and it's like a lot of

collaboration uh in terms of actual code

and research and so on. So I think they

are sort of seen as like very friendly

to each other. Um and

I think the space of of like it's so big

that I don't think it's not competing

there sort of if anything complimentary

and Sika specifically is focusing on

payment and so on whereas Ethereum first

of all the base layer is still

transparent and so on. So a lot of

private solutions are more on top uh but

private but Ethereum is obviously has

home to DeFi and and stable coins and

all of these other types of

applications. So it's actually somewhat

of a different niche. But even to the

extent that there are like payment

protocols on top of Ethereum, I think

it's, you know, it's they might use

similar technology, but I don't think

they are like actively competing because

the space is so large. Um,

yeah, that's I guess how I would frame it.

it. >> Yeah.

>> Yeah.

>> Oh, sorry. Going back to you mentioned,

so I would say also there's definitely

been some movements in the markets uh

recently. I would say that when you look

at something like CCast, I think

fundamentally that comes from like very

strong R&D and and making actually real

progress just the last year and so on. I

believe you had them on the show

recently. Um and I think that's sort of

the origin of it and then everything

else happens after. Uh yeah

>> and I would say like it's welld deserved

right it's like a good team a good

ecosystem like very you know value line

and and just like very strong

technically and they have pioneered s

knowledge proofs a lot of like languages

to write all these things uh but but

yeah fundamentally just took different

different paths. So um I saw Sean Bowie

also like showing like um kind of like

the philosophy that they were taking

like like add privacy then add usability

and then scale it. So right now they're

in the part of scaling and that is where

their new papers, new proposal for

upgrades go through whereas Ethereum has

much more focus on like decentralization

and then um usability and all these you

know rich uh history of of explorations

and new use cases that started on

Ethereum and in the past couple years

have also been focusing on scaling. So I

would say like right now and now we're

like super pushing hard on privacy. So I

would say like there's a lot of things

that we can learn from the Ccash

ecosystem. There's a lot of things that

now they will want to learn from us as

well. How do they scale and how do they

bring uh usability from like the layer 2

centric road maps to like other like uh

more core engineering distributed

engineering like skill sets. So yeah I

would say like it's great and as Oscar

was saying there's like this this is a

big market and we're not like against

each other but rather trying to capture

you know the you know traditional

technology web 2 world is is how we're

trying to frame it. Yeah, I would say

it's a symbiosis. Simple. Yeah. Win-win. Yeah.

Yeah.

>> Okay. It's it was very an Ethereum like

answer, you know, like Kumbaya. >> Yeah.

>> Yeah.

>> Well, so I also of course wanted to ask

because Ethereum itself has had many

privacy efforts, you know, whether it's

like different teams that work like in

the Ethereum ecosystem, right? So, I

wondered what, you know, the EF's new

focus on privacy means for these more

long-standing privacy apps like tornado

cache or even some of these chains like

I'm sure you guys heard about the new

ignition chain on Aztec, you know,

there's Starknet like there's, you know,

privacy it's not like it doesn't already

exist in Ethereum. So, you know, what

does the new focus in the EF mean for

these other efforts,

>> right? So I will start by saying that

it's it's just you know a lot of

collaboration a lot of symbiosis like we

do have direct lines of communication

with all of these teams in the Ethereum

ecosystem because we want to help them

and we want to see what is what they're

thinking what is progress what what

direction we're all taking um and just

experiment with different primitives

there I do see though which may be a

question underneath is like how does if

Ethereum layer 1 becomes private what

happens with you know privacy focus or

layer twos and what I always say is like

layer 2 continues to be like key for the

Ethereum scale road map and for the

Ethereum ecosystem and LUS would always

have um an advantage in terms of

innovation just because like they're

smaller they like more you know

concentrated teams they kind of like

can't just like stop and you know start

the new even from scratch right

architecture that green field advantage

that they have so um I love that part

and I love seeing you know AIC miden and

many others doing like privacy push

either complete architecture to be

privacy focused or within a generalized

architecture try to add uh privacy to

stack. So I think that's that's great in

general. Um and Ethereum also needs that

on the layer one, right? Because there's

like institutions and like users, real

humans that we also need to have some

levels of privacy. So in general, I

would say it's a lot of collaboration.

Um it does mean that kind like we have

more they have a partner that we can

like learn more about primitives and

libraries and SDKs and programming

languages. Um that we can like

accelerate the formal verification,

accelerate you know the maturity of all

these technologies. So just like

accelerate the adoption and use cases in

in Ethereum layer one and and and in

layer twos in general

>> and I would say in general EF tends to

take a sub subtractive approach. So if

the ecosystem is solving a problem

there's no need for us to to meddle with

it, right? We're trying to work on the

things that are overlooked or we see

there's a need for and maybe there's no

not enough incentives for other people

to work on it and we can sort of act

more as a as a coordinator and push have

target R&D towards areas that are maybe

not uh like a little bit overlooked and

so on. Um, and from institutional point

of view, I do think there's like a lot

of appetite for like very customized

like if it's like having a drone L2 or

whatnot. And that's kind of also how the

Ethereum road map is is shaping up in

terms of allowing these different kind

of app L2s or whatnot. Yeah,

>> if I can give an example uh there are

like 20some 30 something teams building

virtual machines CKVMs and in a way they

all you know claim they theirs are the

best and the fastest or the most

scalable. So efforts like just

benchmarking these CQVMs makes a lot of

sense. Now there have been historically

a lot of benchmarking for scaling like

how many you know transaction they can

do per second how big you know the

proofs or how many Ethereum blocks how

fast they can be proven. Uh but now

we're also doing benchmarking for how

can they run on your phone like client

side proving. So doing these efforts um

in tandem with all the R&D and

experimentation and innovation that all

these teams are bringing really helps

accelerate the development of

technologies and eventually you know the

adoption for for normal users as well.

>> Okay. So, I want to uh turn back to the

tornado cache thing because obviously I

mean it was huge for Ethereum when um

everything happened with OFAC and you

know it was like right before proof of

stake and then you saw like what was

happening where the stake was like by um

I forget it was like more than half of

the transactions were being censored for

the OFAC thing and

>> so I just was wondering you know like

now obviously it's a few years later

things have changed but you know what is

your current view on like um you know

what you kind of need to keep in mind

when you're building these privacy um

you know efforts like from a regulatory

perspective or I don't know if you've

been engaging with different regulators

and you kind of already have a sense of

like how they're approaching it or what

they're what they think about it but you

know what from that perspective what are

you kind of keeping in mind as you build

>> so going back to I remember when that

whole thing was happening at the time I

was running an R&D lab and we had

researchers working on similar types of

protocols And it had definitely had a

chilling effect like people were afraid

of working certain technology on certain

technology. And I think this is just how

when whenever you have a disruptive

technology there's always going to be

power struggles and figuring out like

how does this work and like it's code

law and like all of these things and it

takes a while to shake out and we saw

this in the '90s with the first crypto

wars and we saw this with tuner cashache

and we also obviously a lot of things

are ongoing but there's at least been

some progress u there on the regulatory

side. So I think that will kind of

always be the case whenever you have

some kind of really disruptive

technology which Ethereum and public

blockchains are. Uh I would say in

general the way EA thinks about it is

that we are more I guess on the re uh

like R&D side of things. We're not necessarily running things in in

necessarily running things in in production. That's not our role. We're

production. That's not our role. We're trying to facilitate and and sort of

trying to facilitate and and sort of enable that. But that's usually sort of

enable that. But that's usually sort of different different products that would

different different products that would take different types of approaches. Uh I

take different types of approaches. Uh I would say in general the ecosystem as a

would say in general the ecosystem as a whole has

whole has I guess learned a little bit bit from it

I guess learned a little bit bit from it and there's been definitely various

and there's been definitely various conversations with regulators that

conversations with regulators that individual teams have had to sort of

individual teams have had to sort of understand how they can design your

understand how they can design your systems better but obviously people will

systems better but obviously people will sort of choose different points here and

sort of choose different points here and how adversarial they want to be and so

how adversarial they want to be and so on and that's just part of Ethereum

on and that's just part of Ethereum being incredibly neutral infrastructure

being incredibly neutral infrastructure and then people making different choices

and then people making different choices on top of it. So just to add to that

on top of it. So just to add to that there is a spectrum right and from one

there is a spectrum right and from one side is like the most compliant the most

side is like the most compliant the most like government the most like you know

like government the most like you know practical or responsible privacy and on

practical or responsible privacy and on the other side is like the most cypher

the other side is like the most cypher punk the most permissionless and in a

punk the most permissionless and in a permissionless layer anybody can build

permissionless layer anybody can build anything at the end of the day. So as

anything at the end of the day. So as Oscar was saying both will coexist. Um I

Oscar was saying both will coexist. Um I guess it's just like recognizing that

guess it's just like recognizing that there will always be these power

there will always be these power struggles these different differences of

struggles these different differences of interpretation. uh you know what was

interpretation. uh you know what was illegal at the at the time from the

illegal at the at the time from the states for a specific government um or

states for a specific government um or administration won't be for the next one

administration won't be for the next one and is not for like different parts of

and is not for like different parts of people in the world who also wants to

people in the world who also wants to use privacy. So again like the strategy

use privacy. So again like the strategy will be to just continue to be the

will be to just continue to be the neutral credible neutral you know layer

neutral credible neutral you know layer for interoperaiability and for you know

for interoperaiability and for you know teams uh governments corporations just

teams uh governments corporations just to be able to transact more freely.

to be able to transact more freely. >> Okay. And one last thing I just want to

>> Okay. And one last thing I just want to ask about was um and this is like just

ask about was um and this is like just from a purely practical perspective like

from a purely practical perspective like I know Zcash and I think Monero they had

I know Zcash and I think Monero they had like the private viewing keys where you

like the private viewing keys where you could give a party like you know the

could give a party like you know the ability to look at your transaction. So

ability to look at your transaction. So is that like a common feature that you

is that like a common feature that you guys are thinking about building in or

guys are thinking about building in or >> yeah I would say that's definitely one

>> yeah I would say that's definitely one design you have and I think it depends

design you have and I think it depends then we're talking institutions there

then we're talking institutions there are different requirements depending on

are different requirements depending on what regulatory effort you're talking

what regulatory effort you're talking about. So that's definitely one thing

about. So that's definitely one thing that can be chosen. Another thing is

that can be chosen. Another thing is sort of if you want to have some kind of

sort of if you want to have some kind of audit log and other is if you need some

audit log and other is if you need some kind of live access. So I would say it

kind of live access. So I would say it depends a bit on the specific

depends a bit on the specific jurisdiction. Um yeah so I think there's

jurisdiction. Um yeah so I think there's different different design choices you

different different design choices you can make and and uh viewing keys I guess

can make and and uh viewing keys I guess is one example and know have also

is one example and know have also different different ways of doing this

different different ways of doing this and that's like one example of maybe a

and that's like one example of maybe a slightly richer affordance than what

slightly richer affordance than what used to exist and I guess that's

used to exist and I guess that's partially in terms of responding to sort

partially in terms of responding to sort of demand from from from the world.

of demand from from from the world. Yeah. If I were to add more specific

Yeah. If I were to add more specific examples like viewing keys um might not

examples like viewing keys um might not prevent you know someone using a privacy

prevent you know someone using a privacy protocol. It will be after the fact and

protocol. It will be after the fact and that is what regulators usually are are

that is what regulators usually are are used to or auditors right but there are

used to or auditors right but there are things that can prevent before it. um

things that can prevent before it. um for example an allow or a deny list like

for example an allow or a deny list like these addresses because they have been

these addresses because they have been marked as possible hackers about this

marked as possible hackers about this specific protocol cannot use are now

specific protocol cannot use are now part of the list and therefore they

part of the list and therefore they cannot use this privacy protocol and

cannot use this privacy protocol and those are like self-regulation

those are like self-regulation mechanisms that the ecosystem has found

mechanisms that the ecosystem has found that I think are very much more

that I think are very much more appealing to kind or could be more

appealing to kind or could be more appealing to regulators and

appealing to regulators and jurisdictions right um so there are

jurisdictions right um so there are other aspects like you know zero

other aspects like you know zero knowledge KYC's like if you have done

knowledge KYC's like if you have done KYC with a specific institution how can

KYC with a specific institution how can you take this over and just allow people

you take this over and just allow people who have you know KYC before um so there

who have you know KYC before um so there are there are things there are things

are there are things there are things like KYTS or know your transaction which

like KYTS or know your transaction which is like a risk score depending on

is like a risk score depending on specific models so there's just like a

specific models so there's just like a very rich design space about when you

very rich design space about when you when you're thinking about um yeah just

when you're thinking about um yeah just compliance it just depends on what which

compliance it just depends on what which jurisdiction you're trying to be

jurisdiction you're trying to be complied with and what are the you know

complied with and what are the you know the needs the requirements and there's

the needs the requirements and there's like it's it's very expressive

like it's it's very expressive technology there are many ways in which

technology there are many ways in which we can you know build that.

we can you know build that. >> So can you give me a sense of the

>> So can you give me a sense of the timeline here? Um like when do you think

timeline here? Um like when do you think all of these things might be

all of these things might be implemented? What you know which what do

implemented? What you know which what do you think will be implemented first? How

you think will be implemented first? How quickly might we see these things being

quickly might we see these things being implemented?

implemented? >> Yeah.

>> Yeah. >> Right. So I will say uh a statement like

>> Right. So I will say uh a statement like a prediction. I'll say like in 6 to 12

a prediction. I'll say like in 6 to 12 months we're going to say Ethereum has

months we're going to say Ethereum has solved the private transactions in the

solved the private transactions in the ecosystem. There are just so many teams

ecosystem. There are just so many teams doing all these trade-offs and I I have

doing all these trade-offs and I I have no doubt that we have solved these

no doubt that we have solved these >> and when you say solved you mean like

>> and when you say solved you mean like you have the technological like way of

you have the technological like way of doing it but maybe the implementation

doing it but maybe the implementation hasn't happened or like have

hasn't happened or like have >> no the implementation the production is

>> no the implementation the production is already um it's it's only the on the

already um it's it's only the on the adoption phase right

adoption phase right >> and this is like for layer one

>> and this is like for layer one transaction

transaction >> layer one transaction that is my

>> layer one transaction that is my prediction.

prediction. >> Wow.

>> Wow. >> Yeah. I I'm sure like next year we can

>> Yeah. I I'm sure like next year we can talk.

talk. >> We should make a prediction market for

>> We should make a prediction market for it.

it. >> Let's do it. started like I'm very

>> Let's do it. started like I'm very convinced that this this will happen.

convinced that this this will happen. It's just like seeing the strength, the

It's just like seeing the strength, the technologies, all the different

technologies, all the different approaches. There's no doubt in my mind

approaches. There's no doubt in my mind in 6 months, 12 months

in 6 months, 12 months >> and like even like been put you know

>> and like even like been put you know into an upgrade and okay wow

into an upgrade and okay wow >> yeah yeah yeah doubt wallet so many

>> yeah yeah yeah doubt wallet so many things

things >> I would also emphasize that like a lot

>> I would also emphasize that like a lot of things are already in production

of things are already in production right so like for example rail gun they

right so like for example rail gun they have I think $4 billion TVL or something

have I think $4 billion TVL or something like that and it's like private D5 so

like that and it's like private D5 so that already exists right and you have

that already exists right and you have similar things like CK that are used I

similar things like CK that are used I think Aztec used it in their sort of

think Aztec used it in their sort of recent effort they're doing um so that's

recent effort they're doing um so that's already live and also CKTLS is used for

already live and also CKTLS is used for uh on and off ramps in a permissionless

uh on and off ramps in a permissionless fashion So this like obviously this

fashion So this like obviously this technology is already live, right? It's

technology is already live, right? It's just a matter of you know tweaking and

just a matter of you know tweaking and growing the market and so on.

growing the market and so on. >> In terms of institutions like there's

>> In terms of institutions like there's already like a lot of institutions

already like a lot of institutions building on top of Ethereum. There's I

building on top of Ethereum. There's I think things like private stable coins

think things like private stable coins is definitely a hot topic and I think

is definitely a hot topic and I think we'll see more and more of that over the

we'll see more and more of that over the next 6 to 12 months and then it's just a

next 6 to 12 months and then it's just a matter of like products facing it out in

matter of like products facing it out in terms of P products and like slightly

terms of P products and like slightly larger size and then more deployments.

larger size and then more deployments. So I think it would be like a gradual

So I think it would be like a gradual shift but I think there's a very much

shift but I think there's a very much big appetite for it. uh and uh just bit

big appetite for it. uh and uh just bit the regulatory clarity. I think there's

the regulatory clarity. I think there's like a lot of people parties that are

like a lot of people parties that are very excited to sort of you know be

very excited to sort of you know be early on it. Yeah.

early on it. Yeah. >> Okay. So I need to understand this once

>> Okay. So I need to understand this once this all gets implemented then what is

this all gets implemented then what is it going to look like? Because, you

it going to look like? Because, you know, right now we're so used to like

know, right now we're so used to like going on DeFi Lama and looking at TBL

going on DeFi Lama and looking at TBL and we can um you know, look at like an

and we can um you know, look at like an ICO and we can kind of pick out like

ICO and we can kind of pick out like different addresses and you know,

different addresses and you know, there's like those little like bubble

there's like those little like bubble maps and like all

maps and like all >> but like what do you do you think there

>> but like what do you do you think there will just be a mix of public and private

will just be a mix of public and private transactions or do you think everything

transactions or do you think everything will kind of end up going public or like

will kind of end up going public or like like what does that world look like?

like what does that world look like? Because like for me as a reporter I'm

Because like for me as a reporter I'm like oh shoot like am I going to be able

like oh shoot like am I going to be able to look things up that I want to look up

to look things up that I want to look up or like

or like >> Yeah. So, I'd love to hear what your

>> Yeah. So, I'd love to hear what your vision is for like yeah, what that will

vision is for like yeah, what that will look like when it's all finally

look like when it's all finally implemented,

implemented, >> right? Um, I'll definitely say that they

>> right? Um, I'll definitely say that they will coexist like there will be private

will coexist like there will be private and and public transaction there.

and and public transaction there. There'll be things where we want the

There'll be things where we want the public property, right? We want like

public property, right? We want like auditing and traceability and like I

auditing and traceability and like I don't know um ensuring like things

don't know um ensuring like things happen and and and it makes sense in

happen and and and it makes sense in that case. Um if we think like other

that case. Um if we think like other examples uh like in Ccash I can't

examples uh like in Ccash I can't remember the exact numbers but I I I

remember the exact numbers but I I I think like 25% or 30 around that is like

think like 25% or 30 around that is like private transactions. So it's like it's

private transactions. So it's like it's not going to happen overnight and there

not going to happen overnight and there are reasons why you will want to have

are reasons why you will want to have that flexibility.

that flexibility. >> Um

>> Um >> but like I can't understand why anybody

>> but like I can't understand why anybody would choose a public one like once once

would choose a public one like once once it gets implemented I'm like oh I'll

it gets implemented I'm like oh I'll make everything private. Right.

make everything private. Right. >> An example.

>> An example. >> Yeah, I think it would be a gradual

>> Yeah, I think it would be a gradual shift, right? And and

shift, right? And and >> um like looking at for example

>> um like looking at for example institutions, I a lot of the reason they

institutions, I a lot of the reason they want to move to Ethereum is in terms of

want to move to Ethereum is in terms of like access to liquidity and the fact

like access to liquidity and the fact that it's like a chain with 10 years of

that it's like a chain with 10 years of uptime and so it's kind of a they can

uptime and so it's kind of a they can they can kind of trust it. It's not

they can kind of trust it. It's not going going to go away tomorrow. uh

going going to go away tomorrow. uh sensor persistence and uh being like a

sensor persistence and uh being like a credibly sort of neutral uh stellment

credibly sort of neutral uh stellment layer and like if you have DeFi

layer and like if you have DeFi ecosystem and you want to have access to

ecosystem and you want to have access to that liquidity, there might actually be

that liquidity, there might actually be reasons that you know certain things are

reasons that you know certain things are public and so on and and uh you might

public and so on and and uh you might mint for example a token on L1 as a kind

mint for example a token on L1 as a kind of public thing and you want to be have

of public thing and you want to be have access to all this like rich DFI

access to all this like rich DFI ecosystem and certain fores might take

ecosystem and certain fores might take longer. So for example, you can do maybe

longer. So for example, you can do maybe private payments, but some kind of

private payments, but some kind of private uh trade thing might take longer

private uh trade thing might take longer because it requires like FH to bring

because it requires like FH to bring this to for full fruition. So that would

this to for full fruition. So that would be like a stepwise sort of um

be like a stepwise sort of um >> I don't want to say migration path but

>> I don't want to say migration path but stepwise use of like more rich

stepwise use of like more rich affordances.

affordances. >> But to give an example, maybe a country

>> But to give an example, maybe a country does or a local government does want all

does or a local government does want all their citizens to be able to audit how

their citizens to be able to audit how they spend the money and wanted to make

they spend the money and wanted to make it private. So like anybody in the world

it private. So like anybody in the world can see like this was sent to this

can see like this was sent to this transaction and this was this was you

transaction and this was this was you know the budget that that they received

know the budget that that they received and all of that. So there are like real

and all of that. So there are like real reasons why someone would just want to

reasons why someone would just want to um keep certain things public.

um keep certain things public. >> Okay.

>> Okay. >> Similarly to how we do you know in

>> Similarly to how we do you know in social media right some things would

social media right some things would just like send over DMs some things we

just like send over DMs some things we will make a post for everybody to see.

will make a post for everybody to see. >> Right. That's true.

>> Right. That's true. >> Okay. Well is there anything I didn't

>> Okay. Well is there anything I didn't ask you guys that you would want to

ask you guys that you would want to mention?

should think I think that comes to anything.

I think that comes to anything. >> Maybe just like final thoughts. Um

>> Maybe just like final thoughts. Um >> yeah, go ahead.

>> yeah, go ahead. >> Okay. So I would say the privacy

>> Okay. So I would say the privacy ecosystem on Ethereum is very strong.

ecosystem on Ethereum is very strong. They're like hundreds like over 200 300

They're like hundreds like over 200 300 teams building privacy on the Ethereum

teams building privacy on the Ethereum ecosystem in all layers of the stack. So

ecosystem in all layers of the stack. So it's like a very rich you know push that

it's like a very rich you know push that is happening right now. Very organic. Uh

is happening right now. Very organic. Uh it's not a reaction. It's been like

it's not a reaction. It's been like brewing for years and there's like a

brewing for years and there's like a long tradition of it. Um, and because of

long tradition of it. Um, and because of the programmability, I think we're going

the programmability, I think we're going to be able to do everything that we can

to be able to do everything that we can imagine like other blockchains have

imagine like other blockchains have achieved. Um, it might take longer. It's

achieved. Um, it might take longer. It's true that by the the the current layers

true that by the the the current layers are all public, but that does not mean

are all public, but that does not mean that we can achieve the same levels of

that we can achieve the same levels of properties or use cases that other

properties or use cases that other blockchains have have achieved. So, I'm

blockchains have have achieved. So, I'm very bullish on Ethereum, very bullish

very bullish on Ethereum, very bullish on its privacy ecosystem, and it's just

on its privacy ecosystem, and it's just right now a matter of like executing. Um

right now a matter of like executing. Um there are still long-term research

there are still long-term research problems that would just like make

problems that would just like make things more expressive, more scalable.

things more expressive, more scalable. Um perhaps different affordances and

Um perhaps different affordances and there's continues to be like very rich

there's continues to be like very rich investment in those areas by the whole

investment in those areas by the whole ecosystem, uh new companies and even the

ecosystem, uh new companies and even the Ethereum Foundation. Um but yeah, I

Ethereum Foundation. Um but yeah, I there's no doubt that that we're

there's no doubt that that we're executing and that there's already

executing and that there's already production grade uh projects and

production grade uh projects and alternatives that you can use and that

alternatives that you can use and that there's just going to be an explosion of

there's just going to be an explosion of even more coming over. I would yeah to

even more coming over. I would yeah to add and echo that like I think two

add and echo that like I think two things like one thing is like just as

things like one thing is like just as you know when you have public

you know when you have public blockchains that came and before that

blockchains that came and before that internet and credit card payments it

internet and credit card payments it enables these like rich set of um use

enables these like rich set of um use cases and so on that we couldn't even

cases and so on that we couldn't even think about before and when we talk

think about before and when we talk about senos proofs or or NPC and or FH

about senos proofs or or NPC and or FH all of these types of technologies uh

all of these types of technologies uh you can think of them like programmable

you can think of them like programmable cryptography and it's a similar thing

cryptography and it's a similar thing where the people in the space who've

where the people in the space who've been deep in for many years the way they

been deep in for many years the way they think about trust and how to build this

think about trust and how to build this type of new systems is very different

type of new systems is very different from how someone for example a software

from how someone for example a software engineer at Google would think about it

engineer at Google would think about it and it just enables completely new types

and it just enables completely new types of new ways of interacting uh and and

of new ways of interacting uh and and sort of creating proofs about things and

sort of creating proofs about things and composing technologies and I think we'll

composing technologies and I think we'll see that that will take a long time not

see that that will take a long time not just in terms of technological readiness

just in terms of technological readiness and so on but just in terms of mental

and so on but just in terms of mental models and like understanding what this

models and like understanding what this technology allows and I think that will

technology allows and I think that will play out over you know the next decade

play out over you know the next decade uh just because the rest of the world

uh just because the rest of the world need to catch up that's one The other

need to catch up that's one The other thing I would say is that on the

thing I would say is that on the institutional front um you know insters

institutional front um you know insters want to move onchain and they need

want to move onchain and they need privacy. So if any of your listeners are

privacy. So if any of your listeners are representing institution or maybe a

representing institution or maybe a vendor working in the space I think

vendor working in the space I think that's like we're great to sort of come

that's like we're great to sort of come talk to us because we want to help and

talk to us because we want to help and and we are trying to help institutions

and we are trying to help institutions move on chain and and making sure the

move on chain and and making sure the privacy solutions are are addressed. So

privacy solutions are are addressed. So yeah.

yeah. >> Yeah. Honestly, I could imagine if I

>> Yeah. Honestly, I could imagine if I were an institution that like in my head

were an institution that like in my head it would make sense to use Ethereum

it would make sense to use Ethereum because it's like it's not only the

because it's like it's not only the uptime, but it's also like if one of my

uptime, but it's also like if one of my competitors is working on a chain, then

competitors is working on a chain, then you know what I mean? It's like I'm not

you know what I mean? It's like I'm not already directly competitive with

already directly competitive with Ethereum. So, it sort of feels like this

Ethereum. So, it sort of feels like this is like a neutral ground.

is like a neutral ground. >> Yes. Exactly.

>> Yes. Exactly. >> So, um yeah, so I could I could see it

>> So, um yeah, so I could I could see it working out well for for your efforts

working out well for for your efforts >> and liquidity, right? That is also like

>> and liquidity, right? That is also like a very good network effect that and just

a very good network effect that and just mind share and EVM. you know standards

mind share and EVM. you know standards programing yeah developers and just in

programing yeah developers and just in general infrastructure so I think a lot

general infrastructure so I think a lot of

of >> people there who understand technology

>> people there who understand technology are like well we want to use Ethereum

are like well we want to use Ethereum but this privacy thing we're not sure

but this privacy thing we're not sure about so

about so >> as long as there's ways to address that

>> as long as there's ways to address that I think I think it's it's definitely the

I think I think it's it's definitely the right choice yeah

right choice yeah >> yeah all right well this was super fun

>> yeah all right well this was super fun thank you both so much for coming on the

thank you both so much for coming on the show

show >> thank you so much it's a pleasure

>> thank you so much it's a pleasure >> Unchained is produced by Laura Shinn

>> Unchained is produced by Laura Shinn with help from Matt Piltard Juan

with help from Matt Piltard Juan Iranovich Margaret Curia and Pam

Iranovich Margaret Curia and Pam Majunar. Thanks for listening.

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What Ethereum Will Look Like When It Implements Its New Privacy Focus