The core theme is addressing the common frustration of underperforming nonprofit boards by shifting the focus from blaming board members to understanding and improving the underlying recruitment, expectation-setting, and engagement processes, as detailed in Hardy Smith's book, "Stop the Nonprofit Board Blame Game."
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Welcome back to another episode of the
nonprofit show. We're really excited to
have Hardy Smith on with us. He's back
on with us. We had you. My gosh, Hardy,
it's been a couple years or now, I
think, but we're going to talk about the
big question that everybody asks. Why
don't boards do their work? You hear
this question a lot,
>> quite often. It's what I get asked about
the most. And it's the whole reason for
the book, Stop the Nonprofit Board Blame
Game. And I'll be sharing lessons from
the book to answer the question today.
>> I love it. You know, it I'm in the same
boat. Um, of all the questions that
people ask me, whether it be in person,
when I'm speaking, just through email,
it's always board oriented and the frustration
frustration
of why it's not working. And so this is
such a huge huge topic and we are
delighted to have you on today. Um we
have the opportunity to talk with Hardy
Smith and get his ideas because we have
presenting sponsors and they include
Bloomerang American Nonprofit Academy,
Staffing Boutique, Holdings Nonprofit
Banking, Interim Executives Academy,
Your Part-Time Controller, Crescent
Cares, Fundraisers Friday, and JMT
Consulting. These are the folks that
join us day in and day out. I'm Julius
C. Patrick, CEO of the American
Nonprofit Academy. More importantly,
Hardy Smith. He is an executive coach,
an author, and a speaker. He's written
this fabulous book called the called
Stop the Nonprofit Board Blame Game.
Talk to us about your book.
>> Well, Julia, thank you so very much. And
the whole the origin the quick origin
story of the book is I know like you um
and so many others in the nonprofit
world um I've just kept hearing over and
over and over uh the angst, the loss of
sleep, the frustration
around board members not doing what
they're supposed to do. Mhm.
>> So I I I saw that there seemed to be a
whole lot of advice
uh mainly from the professional staff
perspective on what what organizations
ought to be doing about these um
dysfunctional board situations, but I
felt like that wasn't helping because
the there's a whole lot of the same
advice from a lot of my good friends in
the nonprofit consulting world. So I
reached out Julia to um my national
network of personal connections of
individuals who
were are actively or have been actively
uh serving as a very good board member.
So I just put the question to them.
Why is it that board members don't do
what they're supposed to do?
And when the answers started coming back
to my my survey project, uh I didn't
have a book in mind at the time, but all
of a sudden, uh Julia, I saw the the
responses to my open-ended questions. >> Yeah.
>> Yeah. >> Provided
>> Provided
the the the sync up and the link up and
the connection of all the answers was
amazingly similar. And I told my wife, I
just imagine I had print outs, computer
printouts of email surveys all over the
house, the kitchen floor, the den, the
living room. The whole house was full of
paper. And I said, "Look at this.
They're all saying the same thing." So
all of that morphed into what is now the
book. And what's different about the
book is, you know, nonprofit leaders
don't need to be told that they have a
problem. They know that, right? But the
challenge is why does the problem exist?
And that's what the book shares. And
it's not my perspective. It's not the
perspective of nonprofit for
professionals. It's from the p the the
the perspective, Julia, of the board
members. So they said, "Here's why we
don't do here's why we're turning off.
Here's why we don't do what we're
supposed to do. And here are the
problems that they identified is
creating the issues." And then I
overlaid all of that with the solutions.
So that's what the book is all about and
it's doing. I I certainly appreciate an
opportunity to share. It's it's I'm
celebrating my fourth publication
anniversary date uh this month and it's
going great. Continues to be a
bestseller on Amazon. Um it is going way
better than I really thought it would.
>> I love it. Well, it is a bestseller on
Amazon. You've won a lot of accolades
about it. Um and it continues to
resonate. I I think what you said that's
so interesting is is that you know we
know we have a problem, we just don't
know how to fix it. And so I love that
um you know you use the word blame in
the title of your book and that's not
going to get us anywhere. We don't need
to be blaming anybody. We need to be
thinking about the process of of how we,
you know, can be better and how we can
make make things work. So, one of the
things that I'd love to jump in with you
board recruitment because I was telling
you in the green room the number of
times I've been asked to to sit on a
board and I mean we're talking decades
and the the CEO or board chair will say
don't worry you don't have to fundra and
we only meet a couple times a year and
I'm always like well then
why do you want me like what's there to
do, right? So, talk to us about this
board recruitment piece.
>> Well, I'd love to. It's one of my like
you, we we share that being a shared
favorite topic to jump into. Um, well,
first of all, if your board members are
not meeting expectations,
I'm going to suggest right off, it's
quite possible you have the wrong people
on your board. And I'm going to say it's
not the people, it's not the board
members that's creating the problem,
it's your recruiting process. So, you
know, uh, a quick scenario, especially
at a local level, um, you know, we we
typically, this is the experience that I
see way too often, and I know you'll
share this this pain,
that we we don't put a priority on
recruiting and getting the board members
we need. We don't think about it. We
don't work on it. The only time we think
about it is when the annual meeting is
maybe 30 days away. We have a couple of
board slots to fill. Maybe some people
are rotating off. Maybe some people have
dropped off during the year, but we're
not we're not working in advance to
solve uh our problem of getting good
board members. So, typically it's the
last meeting before the that annual
meeting and it's okay. We have two
slots. Who who do does anybody know anybody?
anybody?
>> Oh, yeah. Well, you know, Julia Patrick
uh is here in the community and she's on
like five or six different boards.
Obviously, she would be a good board
member. Does anybody know her? Well, no
one no one really knows her, but several
people have heard of her. Well, okay. So
obviously she's going to be a good board
member and there there is no time for
vetting. There's no time for doing
background work. And oh by the way, you
know that that whole saying about uh
that we've all heard about well if you
if you want something done who do you get?
get?
Oh, a busy person, right? Well, I say
no. No, no, no. I've already said the
qualifier here for for Julia being on
our board is that she's on five or six
other boards.
>> Well, what's the reality of Julia
situation? I know she's dynamic. I know
she's awesome and all of that, but if
she's on five or six other boards and
like your board, they all meet once a
month. How many
first priorities do you think Julia can
have or anyone can have on getting to
five or six board meetings in a month? >> Right?
>> Right?
>> And it's, you know, she's going to have
to make choices. So, in a relationship,
do you want to be the number one
priority or do you want to be someone's
second, third, or fourth priority
whenever they can get around to you?
That usually doesn't work out. So my
suggestion is
>> have recruit board members with purpose
and process.
>> So think about your strategic plan.
Hopefully you have one. That's a whole
another topic.
>> We'll move into that.
>> Have a good strategic plan. You have a
good mission. You have a good vision
statement. Recruit your board members to
to that. recruit your board members by
and have the conversation, the
one-on-one conversation
around what's expected, what are the
skills, what's the background, and you
know, Julia, um, here we are, the start
of a new year, 2026.
a board member in 2020. Your
organization may need an entirely
different board member from an
experience and skills standpoint in 2026
than you needed in 2020, >> right?
>> right?
>> And so you have to constantly evaluate.
So recruit board members with purpose
and process. Be intentional about who
you're recruiting for your board
members. You know, Hardy, it's
interesting that you um said that about
the number of boards um that are people
that people are on. I have been noticing
in like the last
like 8 to 10 years a number of
organizations that have said that kind
of put it out there that if you serve on
more than two boards, you can't be on
our board at that same time. And I know
of one organization that in in my
community is a statewide organization.
Um, and it it's they have a great
mission and and all that.
>> They will only allow you to be on their
board and you have to to to cycle off or
take a hiatus or whatever, but they only
want you to be on their board during that
that
>> Hallelujah. Congratulations. And
sometimes you might be on a local board
and then the local board is an affiliate,
affiliate, >> right,
>> right,
>> of a state organization and you might
represent your nonprofit on the state
board. I don't see that as a conflict.
That's that's compatible.
>> Yeah. Yeah. But I think it's just it's
to your point is like how many resources
are you going to have as a leader and
where are they going to flow to? And so
if if you're if you're doing all of
that, chances are um to your point, your
priority is going to drop. So we've kind
of started off with that
um issue of cultivation and looking at
who's out there, the talent sources that
we need, understanding that. Talk about
board expectations because I feel like
this is the big thing that most board
members don't get until they've been elected.
elected.
>> Well, that that's true. And if I could
just quickly walk back to the to the
first question, you know, it we're
really good um organizations who that
are really good in their fundraising
activity are usually very good at doing
their research, donor research and due
diligence. I suggest applying that same
skill set to board recruitment. Do your
due diligence. Okay. Board expectations,
clarity, and acceptance. you know, um,
Julia, we really we're really I'm really
focused on I want to get Julia on this
board now. And, um, we we know she's
really good.
>> We we know she's very busy. Um, and
she's she so we're having this conversation
conversation
and and I'm saying and and she Julia
being a very responsible individual is
asking, well, what all is involved? Oh,
don't worry about it. uh if time is a
concern, we only meet uh we we do meet
once a month, but you don't have to
worry about coming to board meetings
>> and you really you're such a big name.
We really we really just want to have
your name on our letter head and and
that's a big problem by the way,
>> but we really so we don't see a whole
lot of time being invested. Well, why?
And oh, by the way, uh we do know that
fundraising is going to be an ask of Julia,
Julia,
>> but we're not bringing this up in our
conversation with Julia when she's in
the the board candidate role. Um why
would we why would we not talk about
expectations? Why would we not talk
about if fundraising is going to be an
ask, why would we not bring that up?
It's such an interesting thing because I
my sense of it is Hardy is that it
speaks to the bigger issue of fear and
the fear of being honest and direct. And
if you're having those struggles with
your board, chances are you're having it
with your funders, your donors,
certainly your staff, maybe even your
clients. It is just a part of an
ecosystem. That's
>> it's pretty shocking.
>> It is. and you hit the nail on the head
the word fear.
>> I'm not going to share with what I'm
expecting my board uh candidate to do.
I'm not going to share that fundraising
is involved uh because I'm afraid
they'll say no. And now all of a sudden
I'm back to where I started from. The
annual meeting's 30 days less than 30
days away now. and I still don't have a
prospect to fill that seat. So, what
I've seen happen all too often, Julia,
is okay, the candidate says yes. Um, we
get to the altar and they say, "I do.
The commitment has been made and then
and then after the honey the honeymoon
is over at the first board meeting and
oh, guess what?
We do have a a requirement that all of
our board members uh raise a significant
amount of money. A requirement that
board members give a significant amount
of money. We have the conversation in
advance. But now, you know, if you're in
marketing, if you're selling appliances,
if you're selling real estate, if you're
selling cars, that's called bait and
switch and it's illegal.
>> Yeah. Yeah. That's great. That's a great
point. Yeah.
>> Where where is the trust factor now? You
know, I' I've really misled you. So,
where is the trust factor now? And how
important is trust in a relationship?
And do I really can I really
realistically think you're going to be
engaged with something that you never committed
committed
>> to do? So getting clarity, have the conversation,
conversation,
outline what the ask is. Here's what you
ask all of your board members to to
commit to whatever that activity happens
to be. Um, and if fundraising's involve,
you know, have the money talk. I've got
a chapter in the book, have the money
talk. So have the money talk. And after
you have the the you approach this
conversation, then stop talking
>> and listen for acceptance, >> right?
>> right?
>> Because just because you tell someone,
here's what we're asking you to do.
You've got to give them enough time to
consider that ask. And are they
comfortable with it? And are will they
be willing to do it? are they committed
to doing it?
>> So that's one of the biggest challenges
that I see. So many organizations
don't get the clarity. They they do this
whole marketing push and oh we really
want you on our board. You're great. Uh
we assume another mistake here
especially around fundraising and
clarity. We assume that oh well they're
on a nonprofit board. We assume they
know they should be raising money. And
well, I'm gonna tell you, money is a
very personal conversation. It's a
personal issue.
>> Just because people are on boards does
not automatically mean they're
willing to raise money. Not everybody's
willing to ask someone else for money,
>> right? And and I'm talking about I'm not
talking about the the old school stick
stamps on an envelope and address
envelopes or share a contact. I'm
talking about direct solicitation big
dollar ask. And and a final note about
getting clarity, Julia. If you want
fundraisers on your board, get
fundraisers. So this is where your due
diligence really is important. What's
their history of raising money?
>> And oh, by the way, just because they're
on Julia's own her five or six other
boards, um, does that mean all of her
friends and customers and clients and
family members that she's going to put
the touch on for a nonprofit
contribution? Are they going to be
excited? Oh, great. Julia's on another
board and I'm supposed to be writing
more checks. So, you got to do your due diligence,
diligence,
>> right? I love that you said that and I
think it's again you and I could talk
hours about this and and I know offline
we have uh because it's such a huge
issue. I want to move into the issue of
creating a positive board experience
because I know that you and I have been
have served on boards different and
sometimes you're just like you can't
wait to go and the meetings are great
and you just you get so much from that
board experience and then other times
you can go and maybe the mission is even
better or you're even more aligned with
the mission but the board experience is
not so good. talk to us about how we
should be thinking about this. Hardy,
>> thank you for asking this very important
question and it's really the foundational
foundational
issue that board members shared with me
of why the good board members turn off.
and they turn off because there is a
less than positive board experience
>> and they and this is this is where the
blame game comes from.
>> So the board the professional staff are
pointing the fingers of blame at the
board members for not doing what they're
supposed to do. the board members are
pointing their finger of blame back at
the nonprofit professionals for uh a
less than positive board experience. So,
here's some quick hitters
that that influence this situation. Uh
volunteers, you know, your board members
are volunteers. So, don't forget that.
We we kind of forget that quite often,
but your volunteers are important
people. Think about who exactly you want
your board members to be. And that that
that prototype board member is going to
be a five-star blue chip prospect, right?
right?
>> They're very important people. They're
very influential people. That's why you
want them on the board. And they're very
busy people. They do not want to waste
their time.
>> Yeah. And if they feel like coming to
your nonprofit uh nonprofit's board
meeting um is going to be a waste of
their time, they will not make a their
being there will not make a difference
for the mission. They will not be moving
the mission. They will not be having a
strategic conversation around challenges
that need to be addressed, getting their
input on ideas that that again might
help move the needle toward a positive
outcome for the nonprofit. They're out.
They they got more things to do than
wasting a few hours every month where
nothing is being done.
So make your meetings matter and you can
do that by restructuring the format of
your meetings. And a quick thing you can
do if uh in your strategic plan, let's
just say you have um six goals in your
strategic plan you meet once a month.
Well, you could have two goals a month
or every other month. Have one of your
six goals as a strategic conversation, a
progress report. What's happening? Are
you coming up short? What do we need to
do to adjust? And now all of a sudden,
it's a your meeting is not just rubber
stamping a bunch of reports. Um and now
all of a sudden there's an expectation
that discussion isn't not only expected
it's encouraged
>> encouraged. So you have a good board
chair who is in a role of being meeting
facilitator for getting everyone
involved. That's that will make a huge
difference in in your engagement. And if
your board members are feeling like it's
going to be an engaging opportunity,
they will want to be there.
>> It's also important to have in your meetings.
meetings.
>> You know, how often, Julia, do you see
the board member sliding in, you know,
your meeting starts at the top of the
hour, they're sliding into their board
seat a minute before and as soon as the
meeting ends at a minute at the top of
the the next hour, they're gone.
>> Right. Well, if the meetings are going
to be engaging and maybe there's an
opportunity for a little socializing,
>> they'll want to be there because not
only do they want to be a good board
member, they have a chance to see their friends.
friends.
>> So, connecting with their friends needs
to be an important opportunity.
Another element. Go ahead. I think
you've got a good question.
>> Yeah, I do. And I and I we don't have a
lot of time left and so I want to kind
of revisit and expand upon um the
strategic planning because what I like
that you said about this is that I think
all too often boards you know kind of
work through the meer of a strategic
plan and then they really pull it back
out when the year end is coming up and
then they are like oh yeah we didn't do
very well or oh you know and I like that
you said that that that the strategic
plan should be part of the board
engagement um because it makes it front
and center right I mean it's really an
important thing and I I feel hardy that
um a board member who sees impact
it's easier to be engaged
>> 100% you're that's why you're the so
brilliant in in the work that you do
Julia you understand this and how often
do we hear that
>> well the nonprofit profit professional,
the staff leader really doesn't want to
do strategic planning. They don't have
time for it. They don't want to foo with
those board members and well, okay,
they'll just write one. So, it's a
weekend coming up. They don't have
anything to do. They'll get some snacks,
their favorite beverage, they'll come to
the next board meeting. Here's the plan.
I've got it. What does everybody think?
Well, and you and they've outlined
here's what all the board members are
supposed to do. The board says, "Sure,
why not?" Sounds good. And then now as a
staff professional, you're laying awake
at night. Well, the board members aren't
doing a single thing they committed to
in that strategic plan. News flash, they
didn't commit to a thing. They weren't
involved. It's your plan. It's not their plan.
plan.
>> Great friend of mine, Dr. Jack Hawkins
of Troy University, longtime friend of
mine, told me years ago, Hardy, if they
help bake the cake, they own the cake. Mhm.
Mhm.
>> So get them involved in the development
of a strategic plan. Have that
facilitated workshop, a retreat, use
outside professional help. Don't try to
do it yourself, >> right?
>> right?
>> And get people involved. That's becomes
their plan. Couple that in with making
the strategic plan
>> results a part of your regular board
meetings and the conversation continues.
It's not just a
>> have a planning activity as a one and
done and then you come back and see it
again in another 12 months or so.
>> Right. I I so appreciate that that
you've drawn the link between that guide
and understanding that journey to
continually supporting engagement
because I think that that's the thing
that we forget. I don't even forget. I
don't think we understand the power of
using that strategic plan in that way.
Unfortunately, there are too many organizations
organizations
who just for one reason or another don't
commit, will not commit, don't invest
the time, energy, and resources to
develop a good plan. You know why it
works? You know why a good plan is
important. We just don't think as a
sector, way too many of us, that we just
we don't have time to do that,
>> right? And then you're really just,
>> you know, how important? My challenge
question is then how important is your
mission? It must not be all that
important. You're just winging.
>> So not good. And you're wondering why
you're floundering.
>> Right. Right. Well, as always, Hardy
Smith, you're one of the great minds in
our nonprofit sector. It has been
wonderful to revisit uh this time with
you and your approaches. you know, stop
the nonprofit nonprofit board blame
blame game. Wow, didn't get that out
very succinctly. Um, is really a great
tool. It is an Amazon bestseller. You
can get it on Amazon. Again, stop the
nonprofit board blame game by Hardy
Smith. Um, and if you just type in Hardy
Smith, you it will come right up um on
Amazon and get to you very quickly. But
very interesting approach and I think
Cardi what I liked about this time with
you today is that um this is that time
of the year as we have a new year it
makes it easier for a lot of
organizations to kind of make some of
these changes rethink um you know do
better planning. So I am so so grateful
that you came on today. Thank you so much
much
>> Julia. Thank you so very much. And we we
as a sector need to understand
um we if we haven't figured it out after
a pandemic, after economic downturns, after
after
natural disasters
>> that we are in a world of change,
challenge, disruption, and uncertainty.
So follow these steps to help get the
work around so that your organization
can thrive and fulfill the mission
you're committed to.
>> I love it. Wise words, my friend. Wise
words. Hey, as we finish up our time
with Hardy Smith, and believe me, I
could go on for hours with you, my
friend, because of the things that you
share and and how uh important this
topic is. Um, I want to make sure that I
give a shout out of gratitude to our
presenting sponsors because they allow
us to have these conversations with
people like Hardy Smith and those folks
are Bloomerang American Nonprofit
Academy, Staffing Boutique, Holdings
Nonprofit Banking, Interim Executives
Academy, Your Part-Time Controller,
Crescent Cares, Fundraisers Friday, and
JMT Consulting. Hardy, you know, I don't
know if you remember this, but from the
last time you were on, we end each and
every show with this mantra. And it goes
like this. To stay well so you can do well.
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