Masterful communication, rooted in authenticity and strategic interaction, is crucial for achieving life goals and navigating complex relationships, especially in challenging conversations.
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What are the five most important things
for anyone who's striving to be a
masterful communicator to get what they
want out of life?
>> The first is authenticity and presence
is the highest form of authenticity.
>> Okay, on that point, I'm going to play
this video on the screen that went viral
of Marley Cyrus and Amy Campbell.
>> Oh, I haven't seen this.
That's painful to watch.
>> Number two,
>> reduce the amount of distraction. Three,
stop overexplaining.
>> Number four, know how to deal with their
sadness. And I'll go through all of
these in detail, but number five is you
have to know how to handle the
narcissist and the gaslighter. What do I
do? Let me show you. First, you need to come.
come.
>> Yeah. For a lot of people, that kind of
blows their mind. Jefferson Fiser is
back and the board certified trial
lawyer is using his expertise in
conflict resolution and communication
>> to teach couples, friends, employees,
>> and everyone in between how to master
difficult conversations.
>> Here's the truth. You have to invest in
your communication. If I don't say what
needs [music] to be said at work, I'll
lose that promotion. Same thing in
relationships. Most relationships don't
fall apart because they fell out of
love. They fell out of communication
because of a 100 moments where repair
could have happened and it didn't. Cuz
you said, "Ah, this is so stupid. This
so small." Like there's a recent study
showing that the biggest predictor of
the child's well-being within the
parental relationship is not whether
they were married or divorced. It was
how they deal with conflict. But people
are definitely afraid of the conflict
that they're in cuz they don't know what
to say. And so I want to help them feel
controlled in this, feel confident in
this. And it's knowing things like being
right is overrated. If I respond first
with frustration, I'm going to lose
every time. Or if you want to know how
to handle the insults, the patronizing,
the dismissive, the first thing you have
to do is the mistake I've made multiple times.
times.
>> I see messages all the time in the
comment section that some of you didn't
realize you didn't subscribe. So, if you
could do me a favor and double check if
you're a subscriber to this channel,
that would be tremendously appreciated.
It's the simple, it's the free thing
that anybody that watches this show
frequently can do to help us here to
keep everything going in this show in
the trajectory it's on. So, please do
double check if you've subscribed and uh
thank you so much because in a strange
way, you are you're part of our history
and you're on this journey with us and I
appreciate you for that. So, yeah, thank you.
you. [music]
[music] [singing]
[singing]
Jefferson Fisher.
>> What do you do professionally?
>> What is your How do you sort of
characterize your profession?
>> Well, I'm a trial attorney by trade.
>> What does that mean?
>> That means I help clients with legal
needs. I'm board certified in personal
injury. So, when people get hurt, I have
trials. So, that means there are other
attorneys that don't ever go to a
courtroom. I go into a courtroom.
>> Then you stand before a judge
>> and a Yeah. You have a judge, you have a
jury, you have a court reporter, a
baiff, you have opposing attorneys.
There are people in the room
>> and you try and convince those people of
your point of view to get a particular outcome.
outcome.
>> I advocate my client's facts in order to
get the result that they want.
>> So, why did you think it was important
to write a book about conversation
talking, getting what you want from
the conversations we have with people we
care about? Because I have seen time and
time again that when I am training a
client is what I call I'm preparing them
for cross- examination for deposition
they really don't know how to engage in
conflict. And so I can't think of any
other profession that is more entrenched
in conflict maybe outside of a a boxer
or some you know UFC something that
deals with actual conflict and sits
there and listens to it all than in the
legal world in a trial attorney. And so,
yeah, it's my job to advocate based on
my clients facts to to get them the
result that they want. The reason why I
wrote that book and how that book
applies is I took a lot of the lessons
that I teach every one of my clients and
put them in that book because I'm
sitting there preparing them for
cross-examination and realizing, oh,
wait, they are deathly afraid of the
conflict that they're in. is most of the
time it's the most
emotional, stressful, overwhelmed they
are ever in their life. They've they're
in a place they've never been. They
don't know what it's like. They've only
seen it on TV. And so it's my job to
kind of take their hand and say, "This
is how we're going to this is how we're
going to do it."
>> And how does that apply to the average
person in their life?
>> People think that
the goal of any argument or any
conversation is to win. And same for a
trial. They say you want to win a trial.
I've seen it so many times where I've
gotten the result that they want and
I've realized they still have the
problem. They still wanted the apology.
It all would have been resolved. There'd
be no case if somebody had just said,
"I'm sorry." And so you find that for
the everyday person, it's my job now and
and passion to be able to help them get
into conflict and say, "I feel
controlled in this. I feel confident in
this now. I know exactly where I'm going
in this because I've been there before
and it is not a skill that comes
naturally. It is a skill that is learned.
learned.
And what do you think is the the sort of
variance and outcome? How would my life
change if I became an absolute master in
this? You know, if I started from zero
in this regard and then I became a
master in dealing with conflict and
dealing with difficult people and
dealing with people that gaslight me and
dealing with narcissists and all these
kinds of things, why would my life be
different and and in what domains?
>> It's quite a lot.
>> Yeah. First would be you would be
equipped for outside of necessary
expertise anywhere you wanted to be in
life. People feel like communication is
zero cost. It costs you something. If
I'm not speaking up in that
relationship, it costs my own sense of
worth. If I don't say what needs to be
said at work, I might have lost that
promotion. I I everything the bill
always comes due. If you can think of
every time you didn't say the thing as
like a receipt at a restaurant, every
time it's it's a bill of what I am not
putting into my life because I chose to
either say something or not say
something at the right time. And when
you realize that if I can speak with
confidence, well, that's me gaining a
little bit more. If if I can say things
with control, that's me gaining just a
little bit more. A second benefit of it
is that you realize
being right is overrated.
You can, if you tell me the sky is
purple, knock yourself out, Stephen. It
doesn't have to touch anything with me
on on who I am or any of my opinions.
We're we're opinion-making machines. I
feel that's all on social media. It's to
be set up to give your opinion on things
that most of the time will rarely ever
touch you. And if you can have the peace
of mind of knowing
I don't need to agree with you to
understand you.
If you have an opinion, I don't have to
give one back. If you say something, I
can choose not to say anything at all.
And for a lot of people, that kind of
blows their mind of, "You mean I don't
have to respond?" No, you don't have to
say anything. If somebody's talking
really fast, you can talk really slow.
They forget that you have full autonomy
in it. And when you realize that it's
you who's taking the wheel, you take the
wheel of your life.
>> But what about justice, Jefferson? >> Yeah.
>> Yeah.
>> Do you know justice? Like this person
has wronged me. They've said something
wrong. They've I don't know, they
tweeted at me something which is
incorrect. I need to correct the record.
Justice. I think we all have a sort of
an an innate sense of justice. We want
things to be fair and right.
>> Yes, justice is an inherent value that
is high priority for a lot of people for
good reason. You might say, well,
they've they've wronged me. This isn't
right. That's all well and good. The
question is going to be, how long do you
want to carry it? How long do you want
to carry that feeling? Because I can
either choose to let it go. I can choose
to say the thing. It's it's not at all
my position that you should be stepping
on eggshells and not say the thing and
be a wallflower. No, it's the opposite.
I'm saying you you say what you need to
say in a way that is controlled, in a
way that is signaling I don't I'm saying
this because it needs to be said, but
not because I have to say it. There's a
lot of people who feel like, well,
something needs to be said, but am I
maybe you're not the one to say it.
Maybe you you're the one that needs to
maybe needs doesn't need to be said
right now because if they're not willing
to listen, well then what good is it
ever do? What I like to say is, you
know, for you to learn how to stand up
for yourself, you first have to learn
who's worth getting out of your chair
for. I'm not going to be making big
moves for something that is not at all
worth my my time. So yeah, justice is
absolutely worth it. But when you go,
I'm the one that has to be carrying
this. A lot of the times people do
things to you and it's nothing to them,
but yet it's everything to you and now
you're just you're walking around for 20
years with a comment that you could have
said something way long ago and decided
to drop it, but you you chose to to
carry it and now you're the only one
that has the the weight of that. If I'm
dealing with someone who's in a position
of power, someone who's a I don't know a
senior to me at my company or even
someone who in my social group is a bit
more higher up in the sort of social
pecking order and they're continually
putting me down or being difficult or
even a partner that I'm romantically
involved in.
>> What are the hallmarks of someone who
has control over their communication?
And what are the hallmarks of someone
that doesn't like what is it that makes
because when you speak it's very feels
very composed and controlled. What are
you intentionally doing to achieve that effect?
effect?
I'm wanting you to match my rhythm. I'm
wanting you to come to my frequency.
People get it wrong when they go big
time to an 11. Big emotional reaction.
If I have a big emotional outburst, am I
signaling that I'm somebody who's
trustworthy, reliable, and confident? Or
am I signaling that I am out of my
depth? I don't know what I want, and I
am not to be believed. Right? because
it's when you have an emotional
outburst, everybody thinks this is
you're just being emotional and they
don't all of a sudden you're not
credited for the truth of what you're
saying. So sometimes emotions can get in
the way of what needs to be said because
of how you're delivering it. So when I
say I'm going to talk to you in a way
that's going to sound more controlled,
it's I'm slowing down my words. I'm
lowering my volume. Why? Because I want
to pull you down here.
And if I can pull you down here, well
then we can talk about a lot harder
things rather than feeling like I have
to to rush. So if you want to talk to
somebody in your relationship or
somebody that's kind of higher up on the
pecking order, so to speak, when you can
show them that
change doesn't bother you, when you can
show them that you don't have to rush
through this situation, people feel that
you are giving them a sense of comfort.
In other words, in conversation,
everybody is looking for an anchor.
When you go to a meeting, we listen to
the person who's the anchor. They're
usually the person who says a lot less,
the person who's observing and listening
rather than always giving their opinion
about what you should be doing. Those
are the people you don't listen to. As
soon as you, if you've ever heard
somebody say, "You know what I think you
should do?" Does that ever make you want
to do what they said? No. It's because
they they've made it their idea. Now
they're telling you what to do. If I
were to say to you, you can't do that.
What's the first thing you think of?
Yes, I can.
>> You know, it's it's the same kind of
concept where it's me lowering to be the
anchor in the conversation.
>> And when you're in a case in front of a
judge, is is there anything else that
you're intentionally thinking about
with, I don't know, your body language
or the eye contact or any of these other
things that you've learned over time are
really important to get your message heard?
heard?
>> I'm speaking like I've been there before.
before.
>> Explain that to me. walk into a room
like you've been there before, as if
everybody else is just visiting. So,
what I do before every trial is I will
go in there before the jury comes in,
the judge comes in, everybody comes in
and I say to myself, this is my living
room and everybody else is just
visiting. And so, I will touch the
chairs. I will put my hands on the
banisters. I will walk around. I will
feel that space and and feel it in a way
of saying I have been here before. And
when I can exude that kind of confidence
that every juror that watches,
all of a sudden it calms them down. They
go, who can I rely on here? Who's more
trustworthy? Who's more credible?
Because that's what it is when you're
when you're persuading, when you are
advocating your case, it's who
ultimately it comes down to who is more
credible. And so when I can
not get emotionally flustered, like I've
seen it so many times where a judge
rules against me
and I act as though that's exactly what
I wanted. You know, I am I'm acting as
though, thank you, judge. And the jur
the juryy's never going to know really
any different. But I've seen on other
attorneys where the judge rules against
them and they go [sighs]
or they roll their eyes or they act
frustrated. And what does the juror
think? Oh, they must not have wanted me
to hear this information or this must
have been bad for their case. So, if you
are always reacting to situations in
which you have to be emotional with in a
sense that you're not paying attention
to who's watching you.
>> Okay. On that point,
>> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
>> So, when you say rules against you, you
mean during the trial
>> there's something you request, the judge
might say no, and you say, "Thank you, judge."
judge."
>> You act as if
>> you're not defeated. you act as though
that's exactly what you expected, right?
It's it's the whole idea of that's not
going to shake shake me. So, a lot of
the times you'll see in real court, not
TV, uh the judge will say, "Counsel, can
you approach?" And both attorneys come
up and they play some kind of noise
cancellation to where only the the
attorneys can hear the judge and the
judge is making a decision at that time
that we don't want to hear to let the
jury know. Why? Because it's information
that might sway the case in some way and
not be as objective.
And you have to pay attention to who's
how the attorneys are walking away after
that meeting's done. If somebody looks
defeated, it just signals, oh, this is
information that they must not want or
they're objecting. I've seen so many
cases where there's one attorney who
objects to everything.
It's my rule if I really want to have
one objection the whole trial because to
the jury, an objection is me keeping
evidence out. So, if you always object,
always object, always object, you're
just signaling there's information I
don't want you to hear. But if I have
the confidence of knowing there's really
one objection I know that's going to be
material to my case,
that way they know I've been there
before. This is not something that's
going to be making or breaking my case.
It's it's all of credibility. If they
don't trust me, they're not going to
trust my client or my client's case.
>> I think also it illuminates to me how
much of a communication is nonverbal.
Because in that example, you're just
talking about how they're watching your
body language and how you've received something,
something, >> right?
>> right?
>> And the, you know, if you were
defensive, you know, with all those
objections or if you were defeated in
the judge's ruling,
>> that would work against you even though
it's really nothing was said, like
nothing significant was said.
>> Yeah. It's it's a balance of knowing
am I going to
choose to react because of personal ego
of I didn't get in my way or am I having
the better mindset of I'm advocating on
behalf of my client like I I've been
let's say you're a witness and you're
opposed to me and I'm asking you a
question and I think you said something
that's contrary contrary to the evidence
that I have right here rather than me
getting messed up saying are you are you
sure about that, Mr. Barl. Let me go.
You know, I have this piece of paper
here and I get really worked up versus
me putting you said something and I put
my hand on the the paper. I said, "You
sure?" Like all of a sudden, it's a
moment of it kind of peaks their
interest of like, "What's happening? Oh,
this attorney knows. This attorney is
somebody who's confident and has this
what I call in the pocket presence. I'm
not trying to be too forward. I'm not
trying to be too pack. I'm just in the
pocket like a a jazz band." Like
everybody is on everybody's on beat and
so I'm not I'm not rushing. I'm not
slowing down. I'm just right in the pocket.
pocket.
>> In the pocket. Is that what people call aura?
aura?
>> Swagger maybe as some people call it.
Yeah. Aura. You you could have it for
anything in any context. I like to say
in the pocket because it just reminds me of
of
the right timing is my timing. And that
is I'm I'm going to match
how I need to be of what's most
authentic, what's most genuine to me. If
you were to ask me to read something
really fast, it wouldn't sound that
great because that's not that's not my
personality. And so if I know that I am
acting and speaking in accordance with
the values that I hold and I'm saying
everybody here is just is just visiting.
This is I've been here before. Let me
y'all don't know where to go. Let me
show you. And I I have that kind of mentality,
mentality,
people will listen to you forever.
They'll they'll find that attractive,
saying, "How does this person know where
they're going? Well, I can I can follow
them." It's just it's natural leadership
to speak in a way that says, "I know
where I've I'm going. I've been here before."
before."
>> I think that's probably good advice for
people who um have important meetings or
are going on dates. >> Yeah.
>> Yeah.
>> To maybe get there ahead of time and
familiarize yourself with the location.
>> Yes. just so you you know you don't have
the added anxiety of like stumbling
through the physical environment like
looking for the thing or trying to find
the toilet or
>> I don't know trying to figure out how to
make the PowerPoint presentation airdrop
onto the screen and all those kinds of
things which we've all seen before.
>> Yeah. I always anytime I go to speak um
I I spoke this past week uh in Santa Barbara.
Barbara.
>> I went ahead of time before my speaking
time to to go I want to see what the
room looks like. I want to see how how
can I touch and say hi to the people
that are working AV. How can I meet
them? How can I if you really want to be
better as a professional speaker? Talk
to people in the crowd before you speak.
>> Get to know people's names. It's going
to naturally lower you. Get to know
their names. Ask them why they're here.
Say, "I'm so thankful that you're here.
I'm really looking forward to the
message and getting to talk to you
today." when you when you can go in and
touch people, it's a different sense
than if I'm going into a room totally
cold because you don't really have the
vibe. You don't really know how that is.
So, yeah, going into a restaurant ahead
of time, that's great. Not bringing your
phone, even better. You know, getting
able to be a sense of knowing
I I've been here before. I want to
welcome you to to my space. When we talk
about um people that have aura, you must
have met a lot of people in your career
and your life generally that you felt
had a sense of aura. >> Yes.
>> Yes.
>> What was it about them that gave them
that aura? What is it? It's a frequency of
of
peace for me. I think of people and you
think of people in your life who you
have felt most
comfortable with. the person you feel
like I I can just be myself. I can
finally let everything down. Like for
me, it was my my grandparents house. As
soon as I walk in, it's a different
feeling of time kind of stands still.
They want to know about me. They want to
know how am I doing? They It's It's that
feeling. I could talk about people who
seem like they have aura and they just
have a a glow about them. It's usually
of they're not trying to prove anything
to anybody. They just naturally exude
that kind of charisma because of the
security of knowing who they are and
what they can do. And I guess what
what's the opposite of that then?
Sometimes it's easier to understand
something by understanding the opposite.
What would that look like?
>> I would say that
authentic people,
authentic aura as you said, doesn't come
from people
securing themselves to you. That's for
insecure people.
The people who are authentic know that I
am good exactly where I'm at. Oh, you
want to rush? I'm I'm in really no rush.
I'm What happens today happens today. Is
it really due today or could it be done
tomorrow if I I had to? if it's a slower
pace. I I find that there is so much
kind of what they call cowboy wisdom on
these kind of things where and I'm from
Texas in the south. So it's it's kind of this
this
knowing that the right time will come
when that time is right and not having
to push that. So if you want to look at
the opposite, it's the it's the opposite
of aura is insecure. It's named
dropping. It's having to be friends
immediately. It's having to prove to you
how much money I have or what. It's
everything else
being everything to everybody else
except myself.
Like people who have a sense of style,
their own sense of style naturally have
an aura. Why? Because they don't care
what in the world anybody else is
wearing. This is what I like. My
daughter, all right, she's six. We tried
setting out clothes. Forget [snorts] it.
She she can come down in a leopard print
tutu and her sunglasses and whatever she
wants. And you know what? She thinks she
is the flyest thing in the world. I mean
that's I never want to take that out of
her. The people who have a sense of
fashion, a sense of who I am and they
didn't have to look cool to anybody
social standard, but it's do they really
care what anybody else thinks? Usually
the people with aura do not. Mhm.
>> And sometimes when you come up against I
mean we were talking before we started
recording about since this book's
publication what have been people saying
to you what have the chapters um what
are the chapters that have stood out the
most to people and you mentioned that it
tends to be things around dealing with
difficult conversations dealing with
difficult people. >> Right.
>> Right.
>> And one of the phrases that's been
arguably overused a lot in society is
this phrase gaslighting.
>> Yeah. And the definition of gaslighting
that I managed to pull was gaslighting
is psychological manipulation where one
person purposefully lies or manipulates
the other to make them doubt their own
reality, memory, or sanity. >> Mhm.
>> Mhm.
>> Do people talk to you about gaslighting
a lot? >> Yes.
>> Yes.
>> Now that you've written this book? >> Yes.
>> Yes.
>> And what do you think gaslighting? It's
one of those things that's been used so
often that we almost have to like pause
for a second just to define it again.
>> Yes. Well, let me put it this way. The
difference between
gaslighting and lying. Lying is a
I could tell you instead of having a
silver cup, this is a red cup. Well,
that would be a lie. Gaslighting is I'm
trying to alter your reality into mine.
I'm I'm trying to make you question how
other people perceive you, including
myself. How you perceive yourself. If
anybody's ever questioned, "Am I crazy?
Am I the crazy one? Is it Is it me? Is
it is everybody most likely you're
probably being gas and here's the truth.
I have been the gaslighter.
Everybody has been the gaslighter
whether they intentionally know it or
not. Because it's all that feeling of
preservation of defensiveness of I don't
want people to know the truth of of
what's happening in my life so I'm going
to mislead. In gaslighting, the intent
is to alter your reality, to make you
question what is real and what is not.
So, I might do something wrong and then
I might come home and know that I've
done something wrong and intentionally
try and sell my partner a version of
reality that makes them fundamentally
question what they know to try and spare me
me
>> the critique or to control them.
>> Yes. To protect yourself. It's it's it's selfpreservation.
selfpreservation.
Say, let's say you and your partner had
come home from a a dinner, all right?
And you're just in a very critical mood
and maybe you're trying to to distract
from something else that's going on in
your life and you're being critical of a
story that she shared at dinner and
you're like, why did you why would you
ever say that? And she goes, everything
was fine. You're like, fine. No, no, it
was not. Did you not see how they
reacted? No, no, no, no. Listen, I know
you don't want to hear this, but
everybody feels that, you know, you're a
little bit much. You and I and I'm I'm
the one that needs to tell you this. You
see how you're all of a sudden is
starting to alter how she feels in that
moment. And I've seen the the other side
of that. And it is it is not at all
something that you can come back from
without serious relationship work to be
able to find a way to say okay what's
how are we really walking in truth
because you get so far away from radical
honesty in conversation. So gaslighting
is is is not something to be taken
lightly. But I will say people often
apply to the wrong thing. They'll use it
as a sense of saying you're saying
something I don't like so you're
gaslighting me. You know, we're in an
argument and you're pointing out
something that hurt your feelings. Oh,
that's gaslighting, you know, and and
they they they use it as an excuse.
>> It's almost a form of gaslighting.
>> Exactly. That's exactly right. And it in
a weird way, it can reverse that way.
But imagine me saying something hurtful
to you and you go, "That really hurt my
feelings." I go, "That's just my
boundary. I just I have a boundary about
everything." Or, "This is you're just
gaslighting me." You know, I've never
met somebody who talked about their ex
without saying my narcissistic ex. you
know, I finally just got out of a
narcissistic relationship. It's never
us, right? It's always the other It's
always the other person. And so, there's
these words that we can kind of pepper
insult into sentences that are also
still another form if we look at it, a
form of self-preservation. Look at all
their bad and don't look at mine.
>> Why is it important that we don't
gaslight others? And I asked this
question because everybody listening now
is probably going to want the answer to
the question, which is what what do I do
about a gaslighter? Yeah. Yeah,
>> but this is avoiding the responsibility
that we all have a like a tendency or at
some point in our life have gaslighted
somebody else
>> and you know I don't think my audience
is just the gaslighted [laughter]
>> statistically clearly you're also all
the gaslighters >> right
>> right
>> so how do um why is it important that we
don't gaslight other people and is there
a way for us to avoid
you know getting into a situation where
our back's against the wall and we end
up gaslighting one,
>> it's important not to gaslight somebody
because every time you do, you're removing
removing
yourself further and further from the
truth, the truth of how you feel, the
truth of your relationship. You are withholding
withholding
reality from that other person rather
than having radical radical honesty
about what's what's happening. So it it
degrades the relationship. It degrades
another person's selfworth. And in many
ways, gaslighting steals their reality.
It's not something you can give back
without a lot of work. It it's it's
taking in some sense. Now, it can be absolutely
absolutely
intentional and it can also be
unintentional as a form of self-preservation.
self-preservation.
And if you feel like you are being gaslit,
gaslit,
the secret to knowing is slowing down
the conversation.
If I am staying still in the
conversation, meaning you could say
something to me that's a form of
gaslighting, making me question, did I
oh my goodness, did I really say that?
Did I really hurt their feelings? No, I
did I and get into my head and I start
kind of jumping around and trying to
change what I did. But if I were to say,
"Stephen, I remember that differently."
And that's where I stop.
Then you can try other things. And I'm
going to repeat, "Yeah, I remember that differently."
differently."
It's standing in the truth of what you
know rather than being concerned
and misled
by giving someone the reins and the
leash to drag you around.
And if I um if I think about I think
it's thinking about all the times where
I've I think I might have gas gas gas
gas lit someone you know in
relationships backs against the wall um
and you're having an argument with
someone or
>> it's quite difficult in my head to know
the difference between the word like
just tell saying something that isn't
necessarily true or is that is your
perception of things versus like gaslighting
gaslighting
>> is the is the difference in your mind intention
intention
>> like is if I if I give my version of reality
reality
>> yeah We were at that party. You said
this thing. I saw the person roll their
eyes and then they walked away. I think
they're really offended. I think you
offended them, >> right?
>> right?
>> What's the difference between that and
me gaslighting someone
>> of between lying and gaslighting or it's
>> Yeah. Like I'm trying to understand in
in that context you gave about going to
a party, someone said something and then
they walk up. What's the difference
between if that's how you saw reality
and you're communicating it versus
gaslighting someone?
>> It to the intention.
>> It's the intention. The tension is I'm
the one in control, not you. >> Okay.
>> Okay.
>> So, you are trying to control the
narrative. You are trying to be both
director, producer, and actor
>> for your own agenda.
>> That's right. For your own film
>> and for control.
>> I'm I'm the character in my own movie.
I'm the main character. And you need to
behave this way. You need to believe
this. You need to act upon that. And so
the more I can try to manipulate that reality
reality
and what's so wild is it becomes so
manipulated that you believe it too. Now
now that that falsehood has now become
your fact in some sense that the really
good liars convince themselves that that
lie is is the truth. Is there a certain
type of person that's more susceptible
to being gaslit or to being victimized
in any way with conversation in your view?
view?
>> Anxious attachment. The ones that are they
they
people who can't regulate by themselves,
they have to co-regulate. Meaning
Meaning
most of the time men are were good
self-regulators. Just give me some time
by myself. Give me an evening. Give me
an hour. Let me walk outside. I'll and
I'll regulate myself.
Most of the time, it's been my
experience. Women are not like that.
They co-regulate most of them. They they
need you to also make them feel good.
They can't be good if you're not good.
We're not good. I'm not good if if
you're not okay. So, it's it's that
whole I'm not okay if you're not okay.
And so in many ways they need you to be
able to calm down themselves and they
they don't self-regulate as well. And so
the people who are most susceptible to
gaslighting are ones who need co-regulation.
co-regulation.
People who are anxious anxious
attachment meaning they they need uh are
you okay? Are you good? Do you need
anything? Are you sure you're not okay?
and versus the people who are more
avoidant and three the the people who
are are typically more insecure.
>> So do you think women get gas lit more
than men? >> Yes.
>> Yes.
>> But women still gaslight women, right?
>> Of course.
>> But just men are more
>> when you're talking relationships. When
you're talking relationships, that's my
personal opinion is because from my
feedback from the people that have read
my book and the people who give me
feedback on my book, Yeah. It's majority
vast majority are are women. I'm not
saying that's some empirical study on
it. But what I will say is
women are just as capable of gaslighting
and gas women can certainly gaslight
women. And it's I I'm saying this with
the mindset of everybody gaslights
whether they know it or not. And they
have in the past. Most likely they can
think of a time in the past where they
did without knowing it. But it is that
would be my opinion that most of the
time men are the ones that do it to women.
women.
>> Just reading some research here that
says multiple studies on emotional abuse
in heterosexual relationships show women
report higher rates of gaslighting and
coercive control than men. Men do report
gaslighting too, but less frequently and
usually in different forms. Um, and as
it relates to workplace data, surveys
from management and organizational
psychology show women are more likely to
have their competence questioned, their
memory doubted, or their experience dismissed.
dismissed.
Women in male-dominated fields report
the highest rates of gaslighting, and
women of color report even higher rates
of being told their perception is wrong
or misinterpret or that they're
misinterpreting things.
>> Sounds like that tracks.
And also in medical settings, women are
less likely to be to be believed about
their symptoms. Women's pain is
underestimated. Women get later
diagnoses for multiple conditions like
heart disease and autoimmune disorders,
ADHD and autism. And the list goes on
and on and on. If I had to say who does
more, you know, I'm not trying to put
some kind of like headline of men do it
more than women. In my experience, it
tends to be the guy. And you know what
does that that information show me? It
shows me that that sounds about right. I
do think from the people that follow my
content, listen to my content because I
stay very connected to my community of
so many women say I feel like I'm in
this workplace and they are doubting my
competence. They're doubting my ability
to make decisions. I'm not being
believed. I'm putting I'm I'm being put
down. I'm whether it's not even their
experience. it's just because of their
gender. And those are real those are
real questions. Does that mean that
that's gaslighting? Probably not all the
time. But for me to say, ah, that's
that's a dumb complaint. Uh, you know,
that's just complaining. In many ways,
when you start denying that reality,
then you have the same problem. Do you
know I am I've I've hired thousands of
people over the last decade and I have
to say sometimes it's it's difficult to
understand the plight of someone else
when you haven't lived their experience
like you haven't been a woman or
whatever. It's like very difficult. So,
you kind of just have to take them for
their word sometimes if you've not lived
it yourself or you can look at data or
whatever else.
>> And I do have to say that I have experienced
experienced
>> male executives who were
extremely dismissive of their female
peers in a way that was 100%
inconsistent as it relates to genders.
What I mean by that is I can think of
several male executives over the years
who I observed
dismissing or diminishing or not giving
the woman in the room the same credit
really for no other reason than she was
a woman. And so it's a very real thing.
And it's not every man, I have to say
this, but there is a certain particular
type of person
>> who for some reason in my experience
would see a woman in the in the
workplace or in the high sort of upper
echelons of the professional um uh
environment as being less than them just
because of her gender. So when I hear,
you know, what you're saying about women
are predominantly come, you know, coming
to you talking about these issues of
gaslighting, it does kind of track with
what I've seen. I'll tell you this. I've
never had a man come to me in all this
time that I've been from my book to my
content this number of years ever say I
think I'm being gaslit. It is it has
always been the woman. >> Never.
>> Never. >> Never.
>> Never.
>> What about the conversation around like
dealing with narcissists? Cuz this feels
like it's kind of one and the same. The
words are used in the same sort of
vernacular but >> Yeah.
>> Yeah.
>> Do you have men coming to you saying
that I think my partner's a narcissist?
Yes, you do.
>> Yeah, that I do have. Yeah, it's always
it's always they're married to one or
just got out of a relationship with one,
but it's never them.
>> And what what do you say to someone who
is dealing with an artist who is dealing
with someone who repeatedly gas
gaslights them? Let's say it's in the
context of work. >> Yeah.
>> Yeah.
>> What are they meant to do? Quit their job.
job.
>> Well, that is an option. So, let's not
rule that out. >> Okay.
>> Okay.
>> Um if it's if it's worth it to you
because that's that's the question of
what's your what's your purpose here?
And this is where you're going to be
forever. Then there's some things we
need to put in place. But what are you
to do? You are to limit the interaction
like limit the exposure. Talk less
neutral statements.
So if you can many ways you can just
limit the amount of physicality of I
don't have to see you. I don't have to
communicate with you. I know you work
three doors down but I don't have to be
your best friend and you certainly don't
have to be mine. Two is understanding
the game that you're in. It's a it's a
game for narcissists of praise or
provoke. Meaning, if I am not showering
you with praise, then the narcissist
will turn to provoke in order to create
an argument for the same effect. They
they delight in frustration just as may
just as much as they delight in your
praise because they get the same type of
control. I have seen so many expert
witnesses in my field that are that I
what I would term are narcissists. They
they they can never possibly be wrong.
They they don't do empathy. And again,
this is me with the understanding of
hey, we all have narcissistic
tendencies. You know, we all have
narcissistic traits and narcissism is a
diagnosible condition that you can have.
I think more people would qualify more
than they think. But how do you handle
it daytoday is know knowing what kind of
game you're in and it's a game you're
just not going to play. I know I don't
have to say anything to that person.
Two, I'm going to limit my distance to
them. And three, I'm going to use
neutral statements. I'm going to use
neutral statements like that's good to
know. Thanks for sharing. Noted and
things that they can't grab on to and
continue to have in a conversation. When
you think of like the hallmarks of of of
a really really one of these types of
people, what are the way the
characteristics that I could should be
looking out for? If I'm dealing with one
such person who is is going to try and
manipulate me, it's going to try and
gaslight me. What what do they do? They
can never be happy for anybody but themselves.
themselves.
They can't be happy for you. They can't
be happy for other people. These are the
type that if you were to say, "Hey, did
you see that Stephen just got this
award? Isn't that so great? You just
nominated for whatever." And they go, "I
mean, that's I guess that's fine. You
know, I when I did this," and they start
talking about themselves.
They can never be happy for somebody
else. They can't be happy for you. It's
they have to find some way to turn the
conversation of why the world is so hard
and so pitiful for them that the world
was against them and they couldn't get
it, but they were just as deserving. I
mean, I guess that's fine. And I mean,
you know, I do this, but nobody nobody
listens. Nobody really cares. They find
that they have a very victim mentality.
So, two is a victim mentality.
Everything happens to them in some way.
And three, they can't feel for other
people. They don't do emotion. It's it's
always about the perception of what
others would think. They're very very
sensitive to how others might portray
them. So, they're going to give you a
different view than they give other
people. And so, the couple might be terrible,
terrible,
but for a narcissist, they're going to
put on face that the relationship is
perfect to everybody else. And everybody
goes, "You you must be so blessed to be
married to that person." And you're
going, "You kidding me? They're they're
fooling everybody." And it's a very
helpless position.
>> Have you ever had a narcissist try and
pray on you?
>> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I'm in the legal
field, man. Expert witnesses have
opinions to them that are
unquestionable. You can't this is their
opinion and nobody else could ever argue
with it when I have another expert who
says just the opposite. So a lot of the
times they are very condescending
you know that's fine and they have their
opinion and this is all there is and how
dumb of you to ever question me. And
usually what gives it away is if I feel
like this is somebody that okay they're
they can't be reasonable. They're never
going to give an inch on what's reasonable.
reasonable.
I will ask this. I'll say this is
typically in a deposition. I'll say and
you think the juryy's going to like that.
that.
And or you think other people are going
to agree with you and all of a sudden
they kind of change in an instant to be
able to match what the jury is going to
think. So, if I were to say, and you
think and you think that's okay, and you
think others are going to find that
okay, and you think that the jury when
they hear this, they're they're all
going to agree with this very hardline
opinion. I've seen it every time. Or
they that's it's only when I reference
other people, the presentation of
themselves to other people that they
kind of put on a a show. >> Why?
>> Why?
because they know that
the perception of the crowd is
everything. They need everybody to like
them, to fawn over them. They they want
their idea to to be the best. And so
they will manipulate the situation to be
the chameleon to to make sure that
everybody loves them at least in in
their mind. It's not a it's not a
reasonable thought. So they will
typically change their opinion to sound
more palatable even though they could
have admitted to that you know two hours
into the deposition.
>> Do they tend to talk more or less than
the average person in the room?
>> Much more.
>> Is there a thin line between just being
insecure and being a narcissist? Because
you know one of the things I was
thinking about is you said earlier that
they tend to bring everything back to
themselves. And I was thinking about all
the people that I know that if we were
having a conversation about your book
doing really really well, the first
response to that would be their mention
of their own book like they would
immediately bring it straight back to
something about them. And I was
wondering some of those people I just
have in the category of just being a
little bit insecure and that they just,
you know, they're a search for
validation. So I'm wondering where where
you think the line might be between sort
of narcissistic behavior and just like
extremely insecure. Maybe there's not a
line. Maybe extreme insecurity is narcissism.
narcissism.
>> Both can be true. You know, I' I'd say that
that
not all insecure people are narcissists,
but all narcissists are insecure. [clears throat]
[clears throat]
>> Um, I would I would say that if I had to
give some kind of line, it would be the
interest for growth.
Insecure people are looking for ways to
grow and to secure and attach.
Narcissists, they're not looking for
anybody to attach on to. They're looking
for people to support them, you know, to
please them. And so it they have no
interest in growth. They to them they've
learned all they've have to learn. I I
am the best. I I cannot improve anymore.
That to me would be the difference.
>> When you dealt with narcissists in your
own life and in the courtroom,
what is the reason why they couldn't
prey on you? What did you do as defense
to stop their games, their typical games
working on you? I don't chase their words.
words.
Often, one of the biggest things I see
wrong in conversation
is a narcissist will, same for a
gaslighter, they'll dig a hole. All
right? And then they expect you to fill it.
it.
Meaning, they're going to say something
to frustrate you and you go, "No, no,
that's not what happened. Don't you
remember?" and you start chasing it and
then they just dig another hole and you
keep going and you keep going and you're
exhausted because all you've been doing
is trying to plug holes. You're not
having a real conversation.
And when I can give it a very clear
definition, a very clear signal of
noted, you know, I'm just going to stay
right there. I'm going to see I'm going
to put down the shovel and stay right
there with them. and maybe I'll say
something as neutral as got it. I don't
have to chase it. I don't have to say
anything. And and to me, the the people
that have those narcissistic traits,
once they realize that they're going to
have no game with you, that you're not
going to play, they find somebody else.
They find somebody. If you've ever had
somebody come to you and they're the
more emotionally toxic type of person,
they always have some kind of problem.
They come with you and they have this
problem. and you go, I I just I can't
right this moment. I will. And 10
minutes later, what's happened? They
don't have that issue. They've already
gone to talk to somebody else.
>> I was watching uh Dame Dash on the
Breakfast Club. I don't know if you've
seen it, [laughter]
>> but it's really
>> another Breakfast Club,
>> but it's it's Dame Dash is on there
because he he was um he filed for
bankruptcy and Charlemagne is sat there
>> and Charlemagne [clears throat] is I've
actually interviewed both of them, both
Dame and Charlemagne. And Charlemagne is
very relaxed and every once in a while
just tells Dame Dash that he thinks he's
broke. And then Dame Dash is like very
like hotaded and like trying to prove
prove all the reasons why he's not broke
and like really like you know gassing
him. And I it was it was an interesting
it's an interesting video to watch. I
think it's the more recent one that came
out within the last year because it does
show in my view how to deal with someone
who has a very has a significant ego. >> Yeah.
>> Yeah.
>> Which is Charlemagne just never changes
state. Like no matter what the volume
is, no matter how much emotion, no
matter when he starts calling him some
quite personal insults, Charlemagne's
demeanor, his tone, his posture, >> yeah,
>> yeah,
>> doesn't change.
>> Unbothered. unbothered. And you can see
it's super triggering that you just
can't get to this guy. Like it looks
like Dame is like really annoyed that he
and he tries to say more offensive
things. He calls you're a you're this,
you're that, the other.
>> And it's funny cuz I was watching it
this morning and it for me it kind of
tracks with a lot of the stuff you're
saying about like just not going with them.
them. >> Yeah.
>> Yeah.
>> Just not following them where because
they want you to go somewhere and
there's a certain conflict they want to
get in with you and if you just kind of
refuse and just stay anchored to
whatever your point of view is, it's
it's funny to watch. They want to push you.
you. >> Yeah.
>> Yeah.
>> Yeah. My my dad I can remember growing
up I'd be in the passenger seat. He's driving
driving
>> and you ever had it where somebody
you're in the passenger seat and
somebody's just rearing the bumper right
on them
>> and and I and I'd be looking in the side
mirror. I'm like I kind of start
stressing out for him. You know,
somebody's really riding the bumper, you
know, right behind him.
>> And I mean just like clockwork. what he
would do, we have shoulders on our in on
the roads there in Texas, and rather
than trying to speed up or get mad, he
would just kind of pull over to the
shoulder and he would say this every
time. He'd say, "Go on with your bad
self." Every time he go, "Go on with
your bad self in the rearview mirror."
Like, that's how unbothered he was by
that of I feel like so many people get
road rage as so many people talk out
loud to the cars while they're while
they're driving.
And he it just never got him worked up.
And realizing
my value and my worth of knowing who I
am is not at all determined by
by
where you feel I should go. It goes back
to that idea of if you want to tell me
the sky is purple, knock yourself out.
You know, I I don't have to be right and
you don't have the ability to to push
me. I can move and you have your own. I
I know my lane. I know my speed. I don't
have to match anybody else's. So when
somebody is unbothered, it's not because
they don't care. It's not for lack of care.
care.
It's an understanding. It's discernment
of knowing
I know who I am in this moment and why
in the world would I try to be anybody else?
else?
>> Wouldn't life be amazing if we could all
be untriggerable?
It'd be more peaceable, that's for sure.
>> It's interesting because again, just
reflecting on that interview I watched
this morning, when Dame Dash calls
Charlemagne something really, really
offensive, I noticed that as a viewer, I
immediately look at Charlemagne
to see his reaction to figure out if
what Dame Dash just said was true.
And do you see what I'm saying? So he he
turned to him and said, "You're ex, >> right?"
>> right?"
>> And then Charlemagne just kind of
laughed and like
>> it just it was like water off a duck's
back. So immediately as the viewer I go,
"Well, that can't be true then because
Charlemagne doesn't seem to care."
>> Exactly. Well, it's it's not the lack of
a care. It's
it's just the opposite. It's all the
more care of knowing who he is. So, if I
were to tell you right now, I hate your
purple shirt. It's the most ugliest
purple shirt I've ever seen, Stephen.
Like your shirt is so ugly in that
purple. Does it affect you whatsoever?
>> No, because I'm not wearing a purple
shirt for anyone that's an apple.
>> That's right. [laughter]
That's a good point. Right. But you see
how you you already know the
characteristics of of you. You already
know what you're wearing.
>> And it's not just your clothes. I'm I'm
wearing my confidence. I'm wearing
everything that your parents, your your
loved ones have instilled and put on
you. I am I am wearing the armor of my
faith. I I am I have all these other
things that I'm wearing. And if you want
to say my shirt's purple, that that
doesn't affect me at all because that's
that's not who I am. And so so often
people get mixed up of arguing about no,
I don't have a purple shirt on.
>> When why would you ever argue with that?
They they it's that quote by Abraham
Lincoln that I love.
if never argue with a fool because an onlooker
onlooker
>> can never know the difference, right?
And so it's it's knowing no, I I know
exactly who I am and what I'm wearing.
>> And this sort of speaks to the fact that
your reaction determines how onlookers
will interpret everything that's happening.
happening.
>> Like, you know,
>> oh, the worst thing you could do to
somebody who insults you is laugh. I
mean, what does it do? It I mean, it it
it infuriates them, right? But when the
same thing with a bully, a bully says
something to you that they know is meant
to hurt you.
And if I were to turn around and say,
"Did you say that to to embarrass me?" I
mean, what are they going to do? They
they could say yes, they could say no.
But either way, you're realizing I'm not
going to get any reaction. What you're
showing them is for you to do this, it's
just not going to be fun for you. It's
going to be zero fun whatsoever for you.
And so, they'll find that with somebody
somebody else. It's it's always your
reaction that's going to determine how
the conversation goes forward.
>> There's a lot of people listening right
now that are a long way away from that.
Very easily triggered. >> Yeah.
>> Yeah.
>> Seeking justice, you know, whatever it
might be. For those people, is it like a
muscle they have to build or is there
what is the journey to getting to this
level of sort of mastery?
>> It's a discipline. It is in the same way
that people invest in so many other
things in our life. We invest in our
health. We invest in self-help books. We
invest in the podcasts that we listen
to. It is the same. You have to invest
in your communication. We don't get
taught in school. We don't, you know, I
I went to law school. People think I
learned this in law school. No. Law
school teaches you how to read the law.
It doesn't teach you how to read people.
You had to. To me, if you are somebody
that is in a position of expertise and
to share something, it either came at
great personal cost or you're making it
up like it it it is something that you
have learned, right? [laughter]
>> It's true. And so I mean whether it's
through skill, knowledge, training, it's
I've you want to know how that I know
these things because I've lived it. You
know, I I have been on the bad side.
I've been on the good side. And it's it
is not it's never something that's just
going to come to you.
>> We are emotional creatures and we're
hormonal creatures.
>> Mhm. So, how do how do you think about
our emotions, our hormones, our health,
our physical, cognitive state as it
relates to like walking into the
courtroom and being ready? Like how much
of it, you know, because if I've had
zero hours sleep and I'm, I don't know,
hungry and whatever else and I'm had an
argument, I'm stressed about something,
it's going to be significantly harder to
show up and be a great communicator and
win the argument against somebody, >> right?
>> right?
>> So, do you think about these things
>> all the time? I mean, the emotions are
are right there connected to the words.
And what do you how do you prepare to be
ready for battle?
>> It's an emotional awareness of how I'm feeling
feeling
and also how the other person is because
if I just respond me Yeah. If I respond
to their emotional reaction, I'll miss
it every time. Same thing in
relationships. If I respond to the
reaction, I'll lose that moment to
actually speak to the need. So even in
the courtroom for me, if I know that I'm
a little sleepy, I know I'm a little
hungry, I'm a little grumpy, you know
what? I can either try and pretend that
I'm not. Or I might get up in front of
the jury and say, "Good morning,
everybody. I have to admit to you, I'm a
little grumpy. I didn't need all that
much this morning. Anybody else grumpy?"
And everybody starts to kind of nod. And
now, hey, we all kind of relate, not to
my words, but now to the feeling. And
now you trust me more. I trust you more
because I'm being more authentic.
>> And do you think people should do that
in their own interpersonal relationships
which is just call out their state?
>> Absolutely. Because perfection is not
relatable. Struggle is emotions are. If
I were to come to you and say and you
say how are you and I go good
everything's good when it is not. Am I
being authentic or am I being fake? But
if I were to say, "Let me tell you, I've
had a morning and it's tested me in a
way I was not expecting and my mind is
just not here." Does that make you trust
me more or trust me less?
>> Trust me more
>> every time.
>> So, when you can share your struggles
with people, I'm not talking about your
deepest inner desire struggles. I'm
saying, let me put it this way. Sierra
and I check in with each other every
morning. It's my wife.
And it's only about 10 minutes after she
drops the kid off, uh, kids off. And
we kind of run through how we're doing.
And the number one thing she asks me or
tells me, he goes, "You told me a lot
about what you're doing. You haven't
told me about how you're feeling." And
that's that's the truth of the default,
I think, of a lot of men and a lot of
people. I'm going to tell you what's
going on, what's on my agenda, what I'm
doing. I haven't told you a lot about
how I'm feeling. And we store all that
stuff up because it's still there. But
if I can share with you,
what is my struggle? What's happening?
Not just the good, but more importantly
the the bad.
I mean that it's always going to bring
that authenticity into the play.
>> Women and men are very different in many
ways. And [laughter] >> yeah,
>> yeah,
>> we're very different in many ways. Men
are I I don't know. It feels like men
just, you know, and again, I'm I'm
stereotyping here, so it's not all men and
and
>> of course people are different, but just
speaking generally, the stereotype is
that men are a typically a bit more
emotionally composed or should I say
flat and women have uh more emotional
fluctuations. One could look at hormone
changes throughout the month and talk
about why that might be, etc., etc. I've
had many scientists here talk to me
about hormone fluctuations and how that
impacts how someone feels. But what this
means in our romantic relationships is
sometimes we meet each other on very
different wavelengths. >> Yeah.
>> Yeah.
>> So in my relationship, my partner's
probably seen me cry once, >> right?
>> right?
>> In seven years, maybe twice, but
probably once.
I've probably seen her cry
500 times, [laughter] maybe more. >> Yeah.
>> Yeah.
>> So it feels it almost feels like I'm
just going to be completely honest
because I just think it's helpful. So
you can [ __ ] me up online if you want.
But I it sometimes feels like
we're we're a different species.
>> Like the way that I interact with my guy
friendss and the way that the sort of
wavelength that my romantic partner my
my my girlfriend operates on are very
very different. So it's very easy to
like misunderstand. And we spend a lot
of time talking about how men need to be
more emotional and more I don't know men
need to change how the how they are.
Yeah. Because it's the problem. But
what about the like what about the other
side of that which is [laughter]
do
do women also need to think about
do we need to meet in the middle [laughter]
[laughter]
is what I'm saying
>> there certainly is space to meet in the middle
middle
>> like who's right in that I don't know is
is is there a person that's right in
this configuration am I meant to be way
more emotional and be or or is she meant
to be way more composed cuz I I think
that's often how both sides feel. They
feel like, why aren't you coming to my
wavelength on this issue? But I think
here's what you're missing. She would be
much more composed if you would be more emotional.
>> And so a lot of the times what I find in
my own marriage is when I show emotion,
the more composed she is.
>> I mean, if I start screaming and crying,
I I think my girlfriend's
>> I'm not saying screaming. I'm I'm saying
show emotion. What kind of emotion
>> of being in it with her?
>> And what does that look like?
>> That means you're going to say things
that make her feel it. There's a
difference if I just go static. That's
what happens to me a lot. Uh truthfully,
is let's say we're in an argument about
something or something came up and see
emotional about it. If I dismiss it,
okay, this is so dumb really right now.
This is because arguments never come at
the most opportune time. They come at
the worst possible time. Yeah, that's
hello. That's all relationships. If I
dismiss it, right, does that make her
come closer to me or further away from
me? And if I'm pushing her further away
from me, why would she not be more
emotional? Why why would she why would
she not be further away from me if I
dismiss that? For every woman to be more
emotional as a man, tears are not necessary.
necessary.
connection is being in it is saying
things that make her feel that you're
you're genuinely feeling it. The
difference I find with men and what I
struggle with is I can say that I'm sad.
I have a hard time expressing sad. I can
say that I'm really regretful. I have a hard time
hard time expressing that. I think that is
expressing that. I think that is something that happens a lot with most
something that happens a lot with most relationships and I think that happens a
relationships and I think that happens a lot with men of we were emotional and we
lot with men of we were emotional and we got taught early that
got taught early that you you were not to cry. We I couldn't
you you were not to cry. We I couldn't even tell you how many times I ever saw
even tell you how many times I ever saw my dad cry.
my dad cry. >> I think this is it. The modeling we had
>> I think this is it. The modeling we had as well is my dad was either angry or
as well is my dad was either angry or completely static. And when I say angry,
completely static. And when I say angry, he was very very rarely angry. But but
he was very very rarely angry. But but when I saw him engage with my mom on an
when I saw him engage with my mom on an emotional level, it would be
emotional level, it would be >> him yelling back,
>> him yelling back, >> right?
>> right? >> If he wasn't yelling back, he was
>> If he wasn't yelling back, he was completely just like he was just very
completely just like he was just very calm, static, emotional. There was no in
calm, static, emotional. There was no in between.
between. >> Yeah. It's it all comes down to repair.
>> Yeah. It's it all comes down to repair. How quickly you get to repair. That
How quickly you get to repair. That means can I validate the feeling that
means can I validate the feeling that she has?
she has? Validation
Validation is repair. It's not weakness. It's
is repair. It's not weakness. It's repair. In my world,
repair. In my world, relationships don't fall apart because
relationships don't fall apart because of one big failure. They fall apart
of one big failure. They fall apart because of a hundred moments where
because of a hundred moments where repair could have happened and it
repair could have happened and it didn't. You just chose not to. Or you
didn't. You just chose not to. Or you could have said, "I'm sorry," but you
could have said, "I'm sorry," but you withheld it. I could have chose to
withheld it. I could have chose to validate how you're feeling, but I said
validate how you're feeling, but I said that's stupid. And it's it's those the
that's stupid. And it's it's those the hundreds of those little bitty moments
hundreds of those little bitty moments where all of a sudden, no wonder your
where all of a sudden, no wonder your your world's apart because you chose in
your world's apart because you chose in those little bitty moments not to do the
those little bitty moments not to do the repair because you said, "Ah, this is so
repair because you said, "Ah, this is so stupid. This so small." Yeah, it is
stupid. This so small." Yeah, it is small. All the more reason why you
small. All the more reason why you should repair pretty quickly. And so
should repair pretty quickly. And so when you can validate those concerns,
when you can validate those concerns, even when you say she's being emotional,
even when you say she's being emotional, you're not.
you're not. When you go into that static mode, when
When you go into that static mode, when I go into that static mode, it's a
I go into that static mode, it's a choice by me to do something different,
choice by me to do something different, not say the thing I always say, not be
not say the thing I always say, not be dismissive, not find ways to try and
dismissive, not find ways to try and convince her that she shouldn't feel
convince her that she shouldn't feel this way, but if I validate, if I say
this way, but if I validate, if I say things like, I can see how you feel that
things like, I can see how you feel that way. If that's how you interpreted it,
way. If that's how you interpreted it, you know what? I don't blame you for
you know what? I don't blame you for feeling that way. I I can see that. That
feeling that way. I I can see that. That sounds scary. That sounds frustrating.
sounds scary. That sounds frustrating. If I can choose that it's it's this like
If I can choose that it's it's this like this isn't the key for me and trust me
this isn't the key for me and trust me I'm talking to myself here.
I'm talking to myself here. >> Yeah.
>> Yeah. >> Right. Because every every guy I feel
>> Right. Because every every guy I feel like can be like, "Okay, this is right."
like can be like, "Okay, this is right." And if I can
And if I can make the hard choice in that moment to
make the hard choice in that moment to put aside my frustration just for a
put aside my frustration just for a moment, put aside my personal
moment, put aside my personal frustration
frustration and validate the feeling and say words
and validate the feeling and say words that speak to her need, the need to feel
that speak to her need, the need to feel heard, the need to feel safe, the need
heard, the need to feel safe, the need to feel like she's not being too much.
to feel like she's not being too much. Then all of a sudden, it all shrinks.
Then all of a sudden, it all shrinks. And you know what? my frustration kind
And you know what? my frustration kind of goes away. Why? Because everything's
of goes away. Why? Because everything's better now. We've we've had moments of
better now. We've we've had moments of repair. And then if I still am really
repair. And then if I still am really frustrated, then I can bring it up. Hey,
frustrated, then I can bring it up. Hey, can I can I bring up something to you
can I can I bring up something to you that you said that's really bothering
that you said that's really bothering me? And then you do it.
me? And then you do it. >> How as a man do you know that you're not
>> How as a man do you know that you're not setting a bad precedence for the future?
setting a bad precedence for the future? And what I mean here is
And what I mean here is >> Yeah. if I constantly, you know, justify
>> Yeah. if I constantly, you know, justify how she's feeling and I and I seek
how she's feeling and I and I seek repair and then when she's happy, I just
repair and then when she's happy, I just let it go. There's I think sometimes
let it go. There's I think sometimes there's a worry as a man that if you
there's a worry as a man that if you just lay down and take everything, then
just lay down and take everything, then you're just going to get more stuff in
you're just going to get more stuff in the future. Like you're setting a bad
the future. Like you're setting a bad precedence for the future of this
precedence for the future of this relationship where no, sometimes
relationship where no, sometimes actually no, I wasn't in the wrong or oh
actually no, I wasn't in the wrong or oh no, I did I I do disagree with this.
no, I did I I do disagree with this. >> Right? And I think I've observed a lot
>> Right? And I think I've observed a lot of relationships, especially with some
of relationships, especially with some of my guy friends where because they
of my guy friends where because they like never stood up for themselves,
like never stood up for themselves, they're now like living in a prison,
they're now like living in a prison, >> right?
>> right? >> They like never stood up for themselves.
>> They like never stood up for themselves. >> Yes.
>> Yes. >> And so they're they've kind of lost all
>> And so they're they've kind of lost all of their autonomy and agency and control
of their autonomy and agency and control and they,
and they, >> you know, even when you're listening to
>> you know, even when you're listening to this, there's probably people you can
this, there's probably people you can think of in your life where the guy has
think of in your life where the guy has always opted for an easy life in the
always opted for an easy life in the short term and now over the long term,
short term and now over the long term, he has a really hard one.
he has a really hard one. >> Yes.
>> Yes. >> And again, men and women,
>> And again, men and women, >> of course. So this is the balance I'm
>> of course. So this is the balance I'm trying to understand in your view is you
trying to understand in your view is you know when do you pick the fight and when
know when do you pick the fight and when do you say no that's not
do you say no that's not versus just laying down and taking it.
versus just laying down and taking it. This is quite [laughter] per this is
This is quite [laughter] per this is quite personal to me as well because I
quite personal to me as well because I think my dad did that a bit too much. I
think my dad did that a bit too much. I think my dad, he never he never chose to
think my dad, he never he never chose to fight. And then I look I look at how
fight. And then I look I look at how that played out over 20 years and I'm
that played out over 20 years and I'm like, damn, it's completely changed me
like, damn, it's completely changed me because it means that I will now go
because it means that I will now go through the conflict
through the conflict >> and stand up for myself when I hit a
>> and stand up for myself when I hit a place where I'm like that I'm not going
place where I'm like that I'm not going to be able to honor that for you for the
to be able to honor that for you for the next 30 years. I will stand my ground.
next 30 years. I will stand my ground. Do you know if there's like an area
Do you know if there's like an area where um we might my say my girlfriend's
where um we might my say my girlfriend's unhappy about a certain thing I do.
unhappy about a certain thing I do. >> Yeah. If I don't think that I'm I'm
>> Yeah. If I don't think that I'm I'm going to be able to promise to not do
going to be able to promise to not do that for the next like 10, 20, 30 years,
that for the next like 10, 20, 30 years, if I if I'm unwilling to change, Yes. I
if I if I'm unwilling to change, Yes. I have to stand my ground because if I
have to stand my ground because if I concede today, it's hell tomorrow.
concede today, it's hell tomorrow. >> Yeah. What what I'm hearing what I'm
>> Yeah. What what I'm hearing what I'm hearing is fear of autonomy, fear of my
hearing is fear of autonomy, fear of my rights, fear of my
rights, fear of my >> dominance.
>> dominance. >> Yeah. Like my freedom being Yeah. Well,
>> Yeah. Like my freedom being Yeah. Well, it's it's you want to hear the probably
it's it's you want to hear the probably the number one word you'll hear with
the number one word you'll hear with relationships that are on the brink.
relationships that are on the brink. It's caged. Men feels caged. You know,
It's caged. Men feels caged. You know, the man feels caged. And really all that
the man feels caged. And really all that is, it's a lack of confidence
is, it's a lack of confidence of knowing
of knowing if I am willing to do something
if I am willing to do something different,
different, then I can't have anything else. So it's
then I can't have anything else. So it's it's it's thinking in terms of
it's it's thinking in terms of zero sum. See, both can be true. I can
zero sum. See, both can be true. I can you can still validate how she's feeling
you can still validate how she's feeling and not at all touch what you still know
and not at all touch what you still know to be true. So you can still disagree
to be true. So you can still disagree with her, but every time we go into a
with her, but every time we go into a conversation, we walk in with a need, a
conversation, we walk in with a need, a need to feel loved, understood, it is
need to feel loved, understood, it is always depth. Like you think of um like
always depth. Like you think of um like a kid, right? My son, my daughter, if
a kid, right? My son, my daughter, if when she was small and she screamed or
when she was small and she screamed or she cried or told me no, still tells me
she cried or told me no, still tells me no, you know, of all these things and I
no, you know, of all these things and I just said no. Are you kidding me? You're
just said no. Are you kidding me? You're going to tell me and I you're crying
going to tell me and I you're crying right now? Really? And I get all upset
right now? Really? And I get all upset when she screams. But with kids, we
when she screams. But with kids, we don't do that. We go she's hungry. She's
don't do that. We go she's hungry. She's tired. She's scared. M
tired. She's scared. M >> and we just forget that we're all just
>> and we just forget that we're all just big kids and we all have those like
big kids and we all have those like hidden needs underneath us and so you
hidden needs underneath us and so you still can stand your ground and say
still can stand your ground and say so let's run it. So let's say for
so let's run it. So let's say for example
example >> an example a specific example from my
>> an example a specific example from my ex-girlfriend I was on my phone in bed
ex-girlfriend I was on my phone in bed and I was sending a message cuz there's
and I was sending a message cuz there's something going on my in my business
something going on my in my business back in the UK and I was in I was in
back in the UK and I was in I was in Asia at the time.
Asia at the time. >> Yeah. And she said to me that she wanted
>> Yeah. And she said to me that she wanted to make a rule where there was never any
to make a rule where there was never any phones in bed ever. I could never touch
phones in bed ever. I could never touch my phone in the bedroom.
my phone in the bedroom. >> Right?
>> Right? >> And as I thought this through, I
>> And as I thought this through, I thought, God, I thought about all the
thought, God, I thought about all the scenarios where I might need to touch my
scenarios where I might need to touch my phone in the bedroom. And what would I I
phone in the bedroom. And what would I I realized that what would end up
realized that what would end up happening is I just wouldn't come into
happening is I just wouldn't come into the bedroom. I'd like go and do it in
the bedroom. I'd like go and do it in the in [clears throat] the toilet or the
the in [clears throat] the toilet or the shower or I just like I wouldn't come to
shower or I just like I wouldn't come to bed if I needed to do something on my
bed if I needed to do something on my phone,
phone, >> right? And so the conversation went
>> right? And so the conversation went where I was like I I realized in this
where I was like I I realized in this moment I had to kind of like not lay
moment I had to kind of like not lay down on this issue because I would
down on this issue because I would disappoint her in the future.
disappoint her in the future. >> I was setting myself up to fail in the
>> I was setting myself up to fail in the future if I if I accepted this and made
future if I if I accepted this and made her some kind of promise or you know
her some kind of promise or you know agreed that we I wasn't going to touch
agreed that we I wasn't going to touch my phone ever again in the bedroom.
my phone ever again in the bedroom. >> And so that was one such example where
>> And so that was one such example where I'm like I think [clears throat] I
I'm like I think [clears throat] I actually need to stand my ground a bit
actually need to stand my ground a bit here or I'm setting myself up for a
here or I'm setting myself up for a future expectation I can't meet.
future expectation I can't meet. So in that moment, what did you think
So in that moment, what did you think her need was?
her need was? >> Her need was connection. And she was
>> Her need was connection. And she was interpreting me being on the phone in
interpreting me being on the phone in that space as a disconnection in some
that space as a disconnection in some way.
way. >> And could it possibly be perceived as
>> And could it possibly be perceived as that?
that? >> 100%.
>> 100%. >> Okay.
>> Okay. >> But it wasn't the phone. It was the it
>> But it wasn't the phone. It was the it was the it was me not it was her not
was the it was me not it was her not feeling connected I in my view it at
feeling connected I in my view it at that moment in time in that particular
that moment in time in that particular week because I was so busy in that
week because I was so busy in that particular week that I think she was
particular week that I think she was trying to find a a symptom or a tool or
trying to find a a symptom or a tool or a guarantee or a promise to express the
a guarantee or a promise to express the feeling of disconnection. So that's why
feeling of disconnection. So that's why I look back on it and go it was actually
I look back on it and go it was actually something else that was just a symptom
something else that was just a symptom of a feeling she had at that moment in
of a feeling she had at that moment in time probably.
time probably. >> Right. But that was an example where
>> Right. But that was an example where like I if id conceded it would have it
like I if id conceded it would have it would not have been sustainable. There
would not have been sustainable. There would have been arguments in the future.
would have been arguments in the future. >> I'm not saying you concede. I'm saying
>> I'm not saying you concede. I'm saying there are times that if you want the key
there are times that if you want the key to the relationship, it is putting her
to the relationship, it is putting her comfort over your inconvenience.
comfort over your inconvenience. >> So what should I have done in that
>> So what should I have done in that situation? Give me some advice. Do you
situation? Give me some advice. Do you think?
think? >> Well, you've already kind of named it.
>> Well, you've already kind of named it. one, she's it's not you saying what the
one, she's it's not you saying what the wrong thing to say is, "Well, you were
wrong thing to say is, "Well, you were just on your phone. I mean, you just I
just on your phone. I mean, you just I mean, you're on your phone all your
mean, you're on your phone all your time. You're on the phone all the time.
time. You're on the phone all the time. What are you talking about?" And you
What are you talking about?" And you start arguing because now you're you're
start arguing because now you're you're responding to the reaction. You're not
responding to the reaction. You're not addressing the need. If you were to slow
addressing the need. If you were to slow down
down and say, "Look, I I still want to be
and say, "Look, I I still want to be connected with you. Is there any kind of
connected with you. Is there any kind of place where I can still take care of
place where I can still take care of what I need to take care of?" and also
what I need to take care of?" and also be connected to you. Or if there's a
be connected to you. Or if there's a situation where you say, "Well, what
situation where you say, "Well, what about this?"
about this?" Before I just get my phone and grab it,
Before I just get my phone and grab it, I'm going to tell you what I'm doing
I'm going to tell you what I'm doing ahead of time or I'm going to ask.
ahead of time or I'm going to ask. Maybe that's where it is. You don't want
Maybe that's where it is. You don't want to ask, "Hey, I
to ask, "Hey, I Greg is supposed to email me some
Greg is supposed to email me some slides or a deck or whatever. Can I
slides or a deck or whatever. Can I check that out real quick?" You hear how
check that out real quick?" You hear how she's probably going to say yes. But the
she's probably going to say yes. But the fact that you are saying, "Hey, I'm
fact that you are saying, "Hey, I'm acknowledging our connection right now."
acknowledging our connection right now." And see, it might make you uncomfortable
And see, it might make you uncomfortable saying, "No, I don't I don't like
saying, "No, I don't I don't like anybody telling me what to do. I don't
anybody telling me what to do. I don't have to I don't want to report to
have to I don't want to report to anybody." Okay, that's that's fine.
anybody." Okay, that's that's fine. Well, then you just know that connection
Well, then you just know that connection is always going to be weak. And so, you
is always going to be weak. And so, you you're signing your name to that. I
you're signing your name to that. I don't think I mean there's I have lots
don't think I mean there's I have lots of thoughts on phones in houses and
of thoughts on phones in houses and where they should go, but if you were to
where they should go, but if you were to have instead of arguing the what are you
have instead of arguing the what are you talking about? You're on your phone all
talking about? You're on your phone all all the time. And instead said,
all the time. And instead said, I can see how that would make you feel
I can see how that would make you feel like I'm not paying attention to you.
like I'm not paying attention to you. And letting her respond to that and you
And letting her respond to that and you saying, look, I don't want to me being
saying, look, I don't want to me being on this. This is not at all me trying to
on this. This is not at all me trying to signal that I'm not trying to be here
signal that I'm not trying to be here with you. I'm trying to escape on you
with you. I'm trying to escape on you and have that conversation. And that's
and have that conversation. And that's where you can say it is important to me
where you can say it is important to me that I have these things and for me to
that I have these things and for me to be able to connect with you and kind of
be able to connect with you and kind of rest my brain. I need to take care of
rest my brain. I need to take care of these things. What's the best way that I
these things. What's the best way that I can do that? I think then that's when
can do that? I think then that's when you actually are able to have a
you actually are able to have a conversation of like let's make a g game
conversation of like let's make a g game plan that makes sense because
plan that makes sense because if you you put your inconvenience over
if you you put your inconvenience over her comfort she will always discredit
her comfort she will always discredit that to you your bank account will
that to you your bank account will always continue to to go low
always continue to to go low and if but if you say look I I'm willing
and if but if you say look I I'm willing to do a little bit of inconvenient
to do a little bit of inconvenient things to make you feel better make you
things to make you feel better make you more comfortable I mean that that only
more comfortable I mean that that only grows your account I mean that that when
grows your account I mean that that when when you have a relationship that can
when you have a relationship that can last a whole lot longer.
last a whole lot longer. >> I think I'm slightly traumatized because
>> I think I'm slightly traumatized because um [laughter]
um [laughter] I I think the model that I had of
I I think the model that I had of relationships meant that someone can
relationships meant that someone can increasingly sort of encroach on your
increasingly sort of encroach on your freedom.
freedom. >> Yes.
>> Yes. >> Until you are virtually powerless.
>> Until you are virtually powerless. >> I think that's a lot of guys. And
>> I think that's a lot of guys. And >> I've felt that. I've certainly felt
>> I've felt that. I've certainly felt that.
that. >> Yeah. So I I try and fight back and
>> Yeah. So I I try and fight back and sometimes I think I overdo it. And this
sometimes I think I overdo it. And this is what this is one such example where
is what this is one such example where actually objectively when I hear myself
actually objectively when I hear myself say she asked me not to like be in on my
say she asked me not to like be in on my phone in bed. I'm like well it's kind of
phone in bed. I'm like well it's kind of a reasonable request to be honest. Like
a reasonable request to be honest. Like the bedroom can be a place where we just
the bedroom can be a place where we just like go on the phones. I could just do
like go on the phones. I could just do it in my office and then come to bed
it in my office and then come to bed when I'm ready.
when I'm ready. >> Right.
>> Right. >> But I think my I get my backup because
>> But I think my I get my backup because I've just got so many examples of men
I've just got so many examples of men who like didn't stand up for themselves.
who like didn't stand up for themselves. >> Yes.
>> Yes. >> And then were rendered powerless down
>> And then were rendered powerless down the line. So it's like if I give you
the line. So it's like if I give you this then tomorrow you're going to say
this then tomorrow you're going to say maybe you can't be on my phone in the
maybe you can't be on my phone in the kitchen
kitchen >> and then maybe I can't be on my phone in
>> and then maybe I can't be on my phone in the bathroom. And then so I just
the bathroom. And then so I just thought, well, if I just stand up for
thought, well, if I just stand up for myself here, then I just hold hold off.
myself here, then I just hold hold off. >> What I'm not at all saying is that the
>> What I'm not at all saying is that the guy go, "Yeah, sure. That's fine." And
guy go, "Yeah, sure. That's fine." And then she asks for something. I go,
then she asks for something. I go, "Yeah, sure. That's fine." And you just
"Yeah, sure. That's fine." And you just you're super passive with everything.
you're super passive with everything. That's where I think you do feel like
That's where I think you do feel like you're just you look around, you you've
you're just you look around, you you've given up everything to where you don't
given up everything to where you don't feel like I I have anything to to grab
feel like I I have anything to to grab on to.
on to. >> I want to throw in another example that
>> I want to throw in another example that a lot of people relate to. A lot of men
a lot of people relate to. A lot of men have like a hobby with with their guy
have like a hobby with with their guy friends, right?
friends, right? >> Like watching the football, talking [ __ ]
>> Like watching the football, talking [ __ ] in a group chat. I think it's so
in a group chat. I think it's so important to defend those things.
important to defend those things. >> Absolutely.
>> Absolutely. >> Even for her attraction to you.
>> Even for her attraction to you. >> Like I think I I have no evidence to say
>> Like I think I I have no evidence to say that this is true. It's just a feeling.
that this is true. It's just a feeling. I think to some degree that my partner
I think to some degree that my partner likes the fact that I'll stand up for
likes the fact that I'll stand up for myself in certain in certain areas and
myself in certain in certain areas and that I'll say, "No, no, no, no. This is
that I'll say, "No, no, no, no. This is me time. This is for me."
me time. This is for me." >> I agree.
>> I agree. >> And I can imagine the opposite, the
>> And I can imagine the opposite, the pacivity or kind of rolling over as
pacivity or kind of rolling over as being a really like unattractive thing.
being a really like unattractive thing. >> Absolutely. I I think where you are
>> Absolutely. I I think where you are laying yourself down or just rolling
laying yourself down or just rolling over that is that can be very
over that is that can be very unattractive that it's you need to have
unattractive that it's you need to have a backbone. At the same time, you can't
a backbone. At the same time, you can't be so extreme that your way is the only
be so extreme that your way is the only way. But when you choose to say, "No,
way. But when you choose to say, "No, no, this is I'm going to willing to take
no, this is I'm going to willing to take a stand here." Then that's I think to me
a stand here." Then that's I think to me it sends a signal of strength, right?
it sends a signal of strength, right? Strength of mind, strength of will. But
Strength of mind, strength of will. But for me, when you have those things that
for me, when you have those things that are your hobbies, the things that you
are your hobbies, the things that you really like, a sign of a good
really like, a sign of a good relationship is that she's going to be
relationship is that she's going to be happy, you get to do those because they
happy, you get to do those because they make you happy. Even though she might
make you happy. Even though she might hate it and think it's annoying and it's
hate it and think it's annoying and it's weird and you know, you're taking up
weird and you know, you're taking up that space in the garage and whatever,
that space in the garage and whatever, but if it makes you happy and they know
but if it makes you happy and they know that this is your space and this is your
that this is your space and this is your time because I I you have to have those
time because I I you have to have those things that fill you up, right? And the
things that fill you up, right? And the truth is the marriage isn't enough. The
truth is the marriage isn't enough. The kids aren't enough. Your job's aren't
kids aren't enough. Your job's aren't enough. You have to have things that
enough. You have to have things that personally for you by yourself. If your
personally for you by yourself. If your thing is to go to a pond and go feed
thing is to go to a pond and go feed ducks, go do it. You know, to to be able
ducks, go do it. You know, to to be able to fill yourself up. If you if
to fill yourself up. If you if like I I I know for parents, early
like I I I know for parents, early parents, there's this this mindset of I
parents, there's this this mindset of I have to be with my kid all the time. I I
have to be with my kid all the time. I I can't ever leave my kid. That I need to
can't ever leave my kid. That I need to just be there.
just be there. But what you find is you'll be so much
But what you find is you'll be so much better when you actually go take care of
better when you actually go take care of yourself and go on that guy trip, uh, go
yourself and go on that guy trip, uh, go play that round of golf or whatever it
play that round of golf or whatever it is that's actually going to feed you and
is that's actually going to feed you and fill you up and then I can be there for
fill you up and then I can be there for you all the more.
you all the more. >> I think some people's partners,
>> I think some people's partners, they don't they're not like that. Some
they don't they're not like that. Some people are in a relationship where their
people are in a relationship where their partner cuts out as much of these things
partner cuts out as much of these things as they possibly can. Yeah.
as they possibly can. Yeah. >> So that they can control their partner.
>> So that they can control their partner. I mean, we I think we've all got a
I mean, we I think we've all got a friend in a group chat.
friend in a group chat. >> Oh, yeah.
>> Oh, yeah. >> Who [laughter]
>> Who [laughter] >> has kind of like seems to have lost all
>> has kind of like seems to have lost all their freedom and their autonomy and
their freedom and their autonomy and agency since they've been in that
agency since they've been in that relationship.
relationship. >> They'd say they're on a leash.
>> They'd say they're on a leash. >> Yeah. They're on a leash. Like they can
>> Yeah. They're on a leash. Like they can never come to the thing.
never come to the thing. >> Mhm.
>> Mhm. >> That's not okay.
>> That's not okay. >> And it appears to be a consequence of
>> And it appears to be a consequence of boundaries, like not
boundaries, like not reinforcing your boundaries early. It
reinforcing your boundaries early. It appears to me to be a bit of a slippery
appears to me to be a bit of a slippery slope boundaries.
slope boundaries. >> Oh, yeah. Do you know what I mean? Like
>> Oh, yeah. Do you know what I mean? Like where you like you kind of make a
where you like you kind of make a concession and because you've made a
concession and because you've made a concession, they're more likely to
concession, they're more likely to pursue another concession,
pursue another concession, >> right?
>> right? >> And then before you know it, you're
>> And then before you know it, you're behind bars [laughter] alone.
behind bars [laughter] alone. >> Yeah. And and frustrated and wondering
>> Yeah. And and frustrated and wondering how you how you got here. I know we've
how you how you got here. I know we've spoke about boundaries in the past. To
spoke about boundaries in the past. To me, it it ultimately comes comes down to
me, it it ultimately comes comes down to am I protecting the priority? So, if I
am I protecting the priority? So, if I know that my marriage is the priority,
know that my marriage is the priority, I'm going to set boundaries that protect
I'm going to set boundaries that protect that. I mean, for me in my life right
that. I mean, for me in my life right now, whether I'm working on a book or
now, whether I'm working on a book or speaking or a podcast or whatever, it's
speaking or a podcast or whatever, it's am I setting the boundary up to be
am I setting the boundary up to be protecting my my family in my
protecting my my family in my relationship.
relationship. So, you have to first define what is the
So, you have to first define what is the priority here. So if the priority is
priority here. So if the priority is knowing that
knowing that we want to be you and your partner want
we want to be you and your partner want to be in a relationship and you know
to be in a relationship and you know make sure that Thursday is date night.
make sure that Thursday is date night. Okay, that's nothing gets scheduled on
Okay, that's nothing gets scheduled on date night. There's certain things that
date night. There's certain things that just aren't movable. The answer is no.
just aren't movable. The answer is no. And when you can have those really hard
And when you can have those really hard nos, it makes feeling the time of
nos, it makes feeling the time of everything else all that much easier.
everything else all that much easier. But that's it. I mean it ultimately
But that's it. I mean it ultimately comes down to are you being real about
comes down to are you being real about it? Are you being fake about it?
it? Are you being fake about it? >> In your view, you talk about being nice
>> In your view, you talk about being nice and being kind. Um, I've heard you talk
and being kind. Um, I've heard you talk about this on your podcast. What's the
about this on your podcast. What's the difference between being a nice person
difference between being a nice person and a kind person? And which one should
and a kind person? And which one should I aspire to be? Stop being nice at the
I aspire to be? Stop being nice at the expense of being real. So nice is
expense of being real. So nice is something that we got taught really
something that we got taught really early on. Hey, be nice. Play nice.
early on. Hey, be nice. Play nice. And if you believe forever and always
And if you believe forever and always that being nice serves you well, you
that being nice serves you well, you will ultimately serve it. You will
will ultimately serve it. You will people please. You will only choose to
people please. You will only choose to say the nice thing. You will nice is
say the nice thing. You will nice is very surface.
very surface. If you went on a date with somebody and
If you went on a date with somebody and I was like, "How was a date?" And you
I was like, "How was a date?" And you said, "She was nice."
said, "She was nice." >> Yuck. Yuck.
>> Yuck. Yuck. >> Yeah. Does does that mean that was good?
>> Yeah. Does does that mean that was good? No. Of course. But you're want to say
No. Of course. But you're want to say the nice thing. And so it becomes very
the nice thing. And so it becomes very much about pleasantries of what's
much about pleasantries of what's something that that is politically
something that that is politically correct or whatever it is. Kind is very
correct or whatever it is. Kind is very deep. It's related to the word kin. It's
deep. It's related to the word kin. It's it's connection. So where nice is
it's connection. So where nice is concerned about surface, kind is worried
concerned about surface, kind is worried about connection. So
about connection. So nice people say, "Oh, I can't tell them
nice people say, "Oh, I can't tell them the truth. That's that wouldn't be nice.
the truth. That's that wouldn't be nice. That wouldn't be nice. I can't say
That wouldn't be nice. I can't say that." kind says, "I care about you
that." kind says, "I care about you enough to say the truth." That I I care
enough to say the truth." That I I care about you enough to tell you the truth.
about you enough to tell you the truth. So when you have the chance, don't
So when you have the chance, don't choose nice at the expense of being
choose nice at the expense of being real. Choose the kind thing. Like if you
real. Choose the kind thing. Like if you and I were in a conversation and I was
and I were in a conversation and I was like, I could really I could just go,
like, I could really I could just go, "Yeah, man. That sounds great with the
"Yeah, man. That sounds great with the decision you're going to make because I
decision you're going to make because I just I don't want to upset you. That
just I don't want to upset you. That that wouldn't be nice." versus me
that wouldn't be nice." versus me saying, "Stephen, I I have to tell you,
saying, "Stephen, I I have to tell you, man,
man, this doesn't feel right to me." Which
this doesn't feel right to me." Which one's the kind thing of of telling you
one's the kind thing of of telling you the actual truth? It's being authentic
the actual truth? It's being authentic to it. So, a lot of people, they they
to it. So, a lot of people, they they look back and they're just people
look back and they're just people pleasing. That's all they've they've
pleasing. That's all they've they've been because they've always chosen
been because they've always chosen what's nice, not what's kind.
what's nice, not what's kind. >> You must get a lot of messages from a
>> You must get a lot of messages from a lot of people pleasers
lot of people pleasers >> all the time.
>> all the time. >> And what is it they want from you?
>> And what is it they want from you? They're wanting to know how to stop
They're wanting to know how to stop pleasing other people and to start start
pleasing other people and to start start pleasing themselves. Like how to I
pleasing themselves. Like how to I always say that there's not a problem
always say that there's not a problem with people pleasing as long as you're
with people pleasing as long as you're one of them. Yeah. Of of
one of them. Yeah. Of of it's okay to do things that other people
it's okay to do things that other people ask you to do and you want to serve
ask you to do and you want to serve other people. I'm not saying it in a as
other people. I'm not saying it in a as a servitude way of I can never have any
a servitude way of I can never have any of my own voice. It's it's where you
of my own voice. It's it's where you constantly
constantly are put yourself in inconvenient
are put yourself in inconvenient places for the sake of other people
places for the sake of other people hoping that they will see your true
hoping that they will see your true value. So they conflate
value. So they conflate the pleasure of others with the value of
the pleasure of others with the value of themselves.
themselves. And so meaning I mean nothing to myself
And so meaning I mean nothing to myself if you're not happy with me. I mean
if you're not happy with me. I mean nothing to myself if if I can't please
nothing to myself if if I can't please you. you you want this? Oh, okay. I'll
you. you you want this? Oh, okay. I'll go get it. Oh, you need this. Let me do
go get it. Oh, you need this. Let me do this. Oh, I already thought about this.
this. Oh, I already thought about this. You love this. And they've forgotten
You love this. And they've forgotten their own sense. And so, I've met people
their own sense. And so, I've met people that have, you know, a lot of it's also
that have, you know, a lot of it's also early childhood, right? They they
early childhood, right? They they learned that to save the marriage
learned that to save the marriage between mom and dad, they need to be
between mom and dad, they need to be everything to everybody. They have to
everything to everybody. They have to give up. They they've missed childhood
give up. They they've missed childhood in order to please everybody else. And
in order to please everybody else. And so it becomes a pattern of safety. It's
so it becomes a pattern of safety. It's a survival skill of knowing for me to
a survival skill of knowing for me to have to survive in this, for me to have
have to survive in this, for me to have worth, well, I can't do it unless
worth, well, I can't do it unless everybody else is happy with me.
everybody else is happy with me. >> Are there any case studies that come to
>> Are there any case studies that come to mind of people that have read your work
mind of people that have read your work and have made real transformations that
and have made real transformations that have shocked you or made you happy or
have shocked you or made you happy or proven to you the profoundity of being
proven to you the profoundity of being able to take control of conversation?
able to take control of conversation? We took a a survey poll within my
We took a a survey poll within my membership and it was already I think it
membership and it was already I think it was like 93% of people with even in the
was like 93% of people with even in the first
first three chapters of my book it had already
three chapters of my book it had already significantly impacted them in their job
significantly impacted them in their job their family and exactly what they were
their family and exactly what they were reading the book for because everybody
reading the book for because everybody picks it up for the conversation they
picks it up for the conversation they have in their mind. you know, they
have in their mind. you know, they people don't watch my content to handle
people don't watch my content to handle to know how to handle the last
to know how to handle the last conversation. They watch to know how to
conversation. They watch to know how to handle the the next one. And so to be
handle the the next one. And so to be able to provide the results that they're
able to provide the results that they're wanting
wanting is a is a is a blessing.
is a is a is a blessing. I've just finished writing my third
I've just finished writing my third book. I haven't firmed up the title yet,
book. I haven't firmed up the title yet, but I have started mocking up some
but I have started mocking up some different designs. And I've been doing
different designs. And I've been doing this with Adobe Express, which is one of
this with Adobe Express, which is one of our sponsors. What I love about Adobe
our sponsors. What I love about Adobe Express is that it makes it so easy for
Express is that it makes it so easy for me to obsess over the tiniest details.
me to obsess over the tiniest details. The typography, the font, the color, the
The typography, the font, the color, the text placement, the stuff that might
text placement, the stuff that might sound petty to most people, but actually
sound petty to most people, but actually compounds to create something that
compounds to create something that stands out, something that's one better
stands out, something that's one better than the rest. And designing my cover
than the rest. And designing my cover art has reminded me of how many creative
art has reminded me of how many creative things I've learned over the year. But
things I've learned over the year. But it's also reminded me that there are so
it's also reminded me that there are so many creative minds around me that are
many creative minds around me that are also sitting on their own secrets. So,
also sitting on their own secrets. So, I've created the one better guide in
I've created the one better guide in Adobe Express to bring those tips to
Adobe Express to bring those tips to you. And in it, you'll find principles
you. And in it, you'll find principles from the very, very best in their
from the very, very best in their industry turned into quick and easy
industry turned into quick and easy practices for you to apply so you can
practices for you to apply so you can train yourself to create exactly like
train yourself to create exactly like the best performing teams in the world
the best performing teams in the world do. Just head over to adobe./1
do. Just head over to adobe./1 better to download Adobe Express now and
better to download Adobe Express now and make sure you visit the learn tab to
make sure you visit the learn tab to discover how you can become one better
discover how you can become one better than the rest. Is there a particular
than the rest. Is there a particular moment of conflict which you stays with
moment of conflict which you stays with you the most when you think about a
you the most when you think about a difficult conversation in your life?
difficult conversation in your life? >> Yeah, there was one that I I talk about
>> Yeah, there was one that I I talk about in my book that was probably the most
in my book that was probably the most gut-wrenching at that time was me
gut-wrenching at that time was me leaving the the law firm where I was at
leaving the the law firm where I was at and having to talk to my dad about
and having to talk to my dad about leaving that firm. But that's let's say
leaving that firm. But that's let's say that's in the the book. What's fresh for
that's in the the book. What's fresh for me now, you want to talk about that? I
me now, you want to talk about that? I mean, what's fresh for me now is
mean, what's fresh for me now is conversations that I've had with my
conversations that I've had with my wife, with Sierra, and I'm having a hard
wife, with Sierra, and I'm having a hard time
reaching and she's having a hard time reaching for me, where I kind of just go
reaching for me, where I kind of just go static
static where I do feel sad, I do feel remorse,
where I do feel sad, I do feel remorse, or I I'm trying to and I have a hard
or I I'm trying to and I have a hard time expressing it. So the best thing I
time expressing it. So the best thing I can do in that mind is I use my words to
can do in that mind is I use my words to be able to say,
be able to say, you know, I I feel regret for what's
you know, I I feel regret for what's happened or what I've done and I may not
happened or what I've done and I may not be shown it right now, but I this is not
be shown it right now, but I this is not something I'm proud of. To be at least
something I'm proud of. To be at least able to show in my words how I'm
able to show in my words how I'm feeling. So it let's say for example
feeling. So it let's say for example it's
it's about anything related to it could be
about anything related to it could be any argument really with a a husband and
any argument really with a a husband and a wife or a spouse or partner or
a wife or a spouse or partner or whatever it is. But we had one not too
whatever it is. But we had one not too long ago where we knew we were going to
long ago where we knew we were going to be traveling for a bit and sometimes if
be traveling for a bit and sometimes if it's just the two of us what's going to
it's just the two of us what's going to happen? You're going to you're going to
happen? You're going to you're going to have some spats. about probably the
have some spats. about probably the dumbest things you could probably have a
dumbest things you could probably have a fight about, but that's what what
fight about, but that's what what happens. And I said to her, I was like,
happens. And I said to her, I was like, "Well, that, you know, if we do this and
"Well, that, you know, if we do this and do that, you we'll probably we're not
do that, you we'll probably we're not probably going to argue about it. It's
probably going to argue about it. It's going to be fine." And she said to me,
going to be fine." And she said to me, she said, "Well,
she said, "Well, either way, it's good."
either way, it's good." Meaning, if you don't argue about
Meaning, if you don't argue about something, great. But if we do argue
something, great. But if we do argue about it, that's good, too. to be able
about it, that's good, too. to be able to see it as a chance to understand each
to see it as a chance to understand each other a little bit more, to know each
other a little bit more, to know each other a little bit more. And
other a little bit more. And it's it's it's not without being
it's it's it's not without being radically honest um with the person you
radically honest um with the person you want to be with.
want to be with. And that's that's hard for a lot of
And that's that's hard for a lot of people. I had a friend of mine say to me
people. I had a friend of mine say to me the other day that the thing that annoys
the other day that the thing that annoys him most about his wife is just like how
him most about his wife is just like how long she takes to get ready. And he like
long she takes to get ready. And he like really like offloaded it to me in a way
really like offloaded it to me in a way where I'm like this is a problem for
where I'm like this is a problem for him. Yeah, she just takes so long to get
him. Yeah, she just takes so long to get ready and she's like, which means
ready and she's like, which means they're always late to things. A lot of
they're always late to things. A lot of guys can relate to this, including
guys can relate to this, including myself. But the way he said it to me was
myself. But the way he said it to me was was surprising. And I I remember
was surprising. And I I remember thinking, should he just go and have
thinking, should he just go and have this conversation with her or is this
this conversation with her or is this like an illegitimate concern to raise?
like an illegitimate concern to raise? And I think there sometimes with, you
And I think there sometimes with, you know, because you were talking about
know, because you were talking about your experience with Sierra and her
your experience with Sierra and her saying like either way, it's a good
saying like either way, it's a good thing. Are all arguments
thing. Are all arguments warranted? Like is that argument you
warranted? Like is that argument you take too long to get ready and it's
take too long to get ready and it's pissing me off?
pissing me off? Is that a a valid thing to raise with
Is that a a valid thing to raise with your partner?
your partner? >> In therapy, they say if it's hysterical,
>> In therapy, they say if it's hysterical, it's historical.
it's historical. Meaning, if it's really that big of a
Meaning, if it's really that big of a deal, then there's probably something
deal, then there's probably something deeper going on. If it's really
deeper going on. If it's really affecting you that much, it's like those
affecting you that much, it's like those people who say, "Well, he's always
people who say, "Well, he's always pushing my buttons." I ask, "Why is
pushing my buttons." I ask, "Why is there a button?" You know, it's if if
there a button?" You know, it's if if it's always getting you worked up,
it's always getting you worked up, there's probably something deeper that
there's probably something deeper that you're not noticing. It's probably
you're not noticing. It's probably related to something that happened when
related to something that happened when he was a kid or something that maybe
he was a kid or something that maybe it's
it's here. Let me give a good example. You
here. Let me give a good example. You know, in in our marriage, I'm the
know, in in our marriage, I'm the spender. She's the saber.
spender. She's the saber. >> Okay?
>> Okay? >> She she can turn a penny into a dime,
>> She she can turn a penny into a dime, right? You can pinch a penny to a dime.
right? You can pinch a penny to a dime. And she got really frustrated with me of
And she got really frustrated with me of like, why do you always need the nicest
like, why do you always need the nicest thing, right? And that's typically if
thing, right? And that's typically if she's has an option of several things,
she's has an option of several things, even if I don't know the price tags, I
even if I don't know the price tags, I typically end up going with the one
typically end up going with the one that's most expensive. And it infuriates
that's most expensive. And it infuriates her, right? Because she she wouldn't do
her, right? Because she she wouldn't do that. She's going to wait for it to go
that. She's going to wait for it to go on sale. It she could have something she
on sale. It she could have something she really wants and she's just going to
really wants and she's just going to track it forever in her mind until it
track it forever in her mind until it goes on sale. And that's that gives her
goes on sale. And that's that gives her satisfaction. Me, I'll just go buy it.
satisfaction. Me, I'll just go buy it. And I'm not saying I'm crazy what's I'm
And I'm not saying I'm crazy what's I'm not like some crazy spender, but this is
not like some crazy spender, but this is an issue that has always bothered her.
an issue that has always bothered her. and bothered me.
and bothered me. And what we had come to find out, we had
And what we had come to find out, we had actually used this with my AI actually,
actually used this with my AI actually, but what we had come to learn is that
the reason why it affected me so much of like why why do you always choose the
like why why do you always choose the the nice thing is related to when I was
the nice thing is related to when I was a kid as the oldest,
a kid as the oldest, I I didn't get much of the the nice
I I didn't get much of the the nice thing. my my stuff was typically hand me
thing. my my stuff was typically hand me down from a friend or something else or
down from a friend or something else or I I didn't get the nice thing. And at
I I didn't get the nice thing. And at some point along the way, you equate
some point along the way, you equate that to your sense of worth. And so when
that to your sense of worth. And so when I first had the ability to pay for
I first had the ability to pay for anything for myself, yeah, I I I bought
anything for myself, yeah, I I I bought the onbrand
the onbrand cornflakes, you know, I bought the the
cornflakes, you know, I bought the the the onbrand
the onbrand uh medication because to me that that
uh medication because to me that that was equal to how I wanted others to
was equal to how I wanted others to perceive me. And so when she realized
perceive me. And so when she realized that, oh, it's not just me wanting to
that, oh, it's not just me wanting to splurge or have some kind of, you know,
splurge or have some kind of, you know, you just think you
you just think you um have to buy the best. It was like,
um have to buy the best. It was like, no, that's actually it's a reflection of
no, that's actually it's a reflection of when you buy me something nice, I feel
when you buy me something nice, I feel like you equate that to how much value I
like you equate that to how much value I I hold. I'm not worth buying something
I hold. I'm not worth buying something nice for. And so it was related a lot to
nice for. And so it was related a lot to my stuff. And we got to talk the same
my stuff. And we got to talk the same about her stuff of why she doesn't want
about her stuff of why she doesn't want to buy the thing. So, it's it's like
to buy the thing. So, it's it's like that having these super conversations
that having these super conversations with your friend of why does it bother
with your friend of why does it bother her when she gets takes forever to get
her when she gets takes forever to get dressed? Well, most likely it's related
dressed? Well, most likely it's related to something in his past that's bothered
to something in his past that's bothered him that he's not seeing yet. Are the
him that he's not seeing yet. Are the conversation worth having? Yeah, I think
conversation worth having? Yeah, I think it's absolutely worth having. If it's
it's absolutely worth having. If it's bothering you that much, yeah, if it's
bothering you that much, yeah, if it's hysterical, it's historical. I think
hysterical, it's historical. I think that's a really good point which is
that's a really good point which is we're all just dealing with
we're all just dealing with other people's inner child. Like we're
other people's inner child. Like we're all dealing with it's just like me as a
all dealing with it's just like me as a child facing you as a child. I know we
child facing you as a child. I know we look like adults now. I haven't got gray
look like adults now. I haven't got gray hair but
hair but >> yes
>> yes >> it's really still us just playing out
>> it's really still us just playing out the stories and narratives from our
the stories and narratives from our childhood oftent times.
childhood oftent times. >> You're exactly right. They they say in
>> You're exactly right. They they say in therapy the worst thing about parents is
therapy the worst thing about parents is that they had parents. you know, I mean,
that they had parents. you know, I mean, they they it's so easy for me just to
they they it's so easy for me just to look at my mom and me forget that she
look at my mom and me forget that she had parents, you know, that what they
had parents, you know, that what they did to her rather than me just looking
did to her rather than me just looking at what my parents have done to me, you
at what my parents have done to me, you know, and and that's the definition of
know, and and that's the definition of the generational cycle. And it's
the generational cycle. And it's choosing to do something different with
choosing to do something different with with who you are and who you want to be
with who you are and who you want to be and who how you want to raise the next
and who how you want to raise the next generation. But we're it's it's all
generation. But we're it's it's all survival skills. It's all childhood
survival skills. It's all childhood trauma that's related. And when people I
trauma that's related. And when people I have a section in my book of having
have a section in my book of having people define out
people define out their own
their own the the communication skills they saw
the the communication skills they saw growing up. Because most of the time if
growing up. Because most of the time if you feel like arguments have to be this
you feel like arguments have to be this big shouting match and everybody's
big shouting match and everybody's yelling and it's it's also typically
yelling and it's it's also typically cultural, you know, of how certain
cultural, you know, of how certain cultures how they argue and how loud it
cultures how they argue and how loud it is and if everybody versus there's some
is and if everybody versus there's some cultures and families that it's very
cultures and families that it's very quiet. Like I I I'll never forget going
quiet. Like I I I'll never forget going to a friend's house when I was about
to a friend's house when I was about seven and his parents while we're eating
seven and his parents while we're eating cereal like just had at it and I was
cereal like just had at it and I was mortified like
mortified like >> arguing
>> arguing >> arguing arguing
>> arguing arguing >> and I mean yelling at each other and I
>> and I mean yelling at each other and I am like bowling head mortified and my
am like bowling head mortified and my friend is just eating cereal like hey
friend is just eating cereal like hey don't bother him whatsoever it's just
don't bother him whatsoever it's just another Tuesday you know and whereas I
another Tuesday you know and whereas I grew up with if my parents argued
grew up with if my parents argued it was going to be in their bedroom. You
it was going to be in their bedroom. You know, I knew if they were going to they
know, I knew if they were going to they went to close the door and they were
went to close the door and they were going to have a a conversation that they
going to have a a conversation that they didn't want us to hear. And so,
didn't want us to hear. And so, everybody has been modeled something
everybody has been modeled something different where
different where like there's I've seen it on the
like there's I've seen it on the negative side where people feel like you
negative side where people feel like you don't really love me unless you want to
don't really love me unless you want to fight with me. It's because that's all
fight with me. It's because that's all they've been modeled, fights. They have
they've been modeled, fights. They have to say the most hurtful thing. They need
to say the most hurtful thing. They need to be in tears. They need to be saying
to be in tears. They need to be saying horrible things to each other for them
horrible things to each other for them to feel any kind of love. And I've also
to feel any kind of love. And I've also seen it where people are wallflower.
seen it where people are wallflower. They don't want to say anything. They
They don't want to say anything. They want to be really hesitant because bad
want to be really hesitant because bad things happened when they spoke out at
things happened when they spoke out at home. They they realized that telling
home. They they realized that telling the truth wasn't good for them. They
the truth wasn't good for them. They they they learned that lies protected
they they learned that lies protected them.
them. >> It's interesting when you have one
>> It's interesting when you have one parent that conducted themselves in a
parent that conducted themselves in a certain way and the other parent was the
certain way and the other parent was the opposite.
opposite. >> Yeah. What then happens to you? Like
>> Yeah. What then happens to you? Like which communication style you then
which communication style you then adopt?
adopt? >> Which parent takes more of an interest
>> Which parent takes more of an interest in you is where it typically goes. The
in you is where it typically goes. The one you're most of the time with. And
one you're most of the time with. And see, I know people who their parents are
see, I know people who their parents are kind of absent, but they spend a lot of
kind of absent, but they spend a lot of time with their grandmother. And so I
time with their grandmother. And so I know a guy who he sounds just like his
know a guy who he sounds just like his southern grandmother from Kentucky, you
southern grandmother from Kentucky, you know, because that's who he spent most
know, because that's who he spent most of his time with. And so it's it's who
of his time with. And so it's it's who takes the most interest in you. It's
takes the most interest in you. It's it's where the parents
it's where the parents what I what I find so interesting in
what I what I find so interesting in communication we talk everything is
communication we talk everything is learned from how we were raised is at
learned from how we were raised is at one point in time there was utility to
one point in time there was utility to what you were doing. There was a utility
what you were doing. There was a utility to lying. It protected you. Protected
to lying. It protected you. Protected maybe your mom. It protected maybe your
maybe your mom. It protected maybe your dad. There's utility to it. There was a
dad. There's utility to it. There was a utility to manipulating to be able to
utility to manipulating to be able to say things weren't this way in order to
say things weren't this way in order to keep the family together. So there was a
keep the family together. So there was a utility to the very skill that you still
utility to the very skill that you still have and eventually it catches up with
have and eventually it catches up with you.
you. >> What is it about our communication do
>> What is it about our communication do you think that makes us accidentally
you think that makes us accidentally disliked by other people?
disliked by other people? >> It sounds fake.
>> It sounds fake. >> It sounds fake. And how does it sound
>> It sounds fake. And how does it sound fake? Give me give me some color. Um, if
fake? Give me give me some color. Um, if you want to know the secret if
you want to know the secret if somebody's being fake with you, there's
somebody's being fake with you, there's really three things that you got to
really three things that you got to know. Number one, it's what I call
know. Number one, it's what I call bestie bombing.
bestie bombing. >> Bestie bombing.
>> Bestie bombing. >> Yeah. So, instead of like love bombing,
>> Yeah. So, instead of like love bombing, it's bestie bombing. I have people who
it's bestie bombing. I have people who come to me all the time of I feel like
come to me all the time of I feel like somebody's being fake with them. And
somebody's being fake with them. And what they're doing is it's, "Oh my gosh,
what they're doing is it's, "Oh my gosh, I just we're we're literally the same
I just we're we're literally the same person. Oh, I think we're best friends."
person. Oh, I think we're best friends." And it's we just met. Like I just we I
And it's we just met. Like I just we I already talked we're just standing next
already talked we're just standing next to each other at the same party and
to each other at the same party and they're like, "Oh, we've got to go. Oh
they're like, "Oh, we've got to go. Oh my gosh, we you're my best. You're my
my gosh, we you're my best. You're my soulmate." And it's like they they give
soulmate." And it's like they they give way too much right out of the gate of
way too much right out of the gate of how much they love you.
how much they love you. >> Ah, yeah.
>> Ah, yeah. >> And it's it's nothing. It's not what
>> And it's it's nothing. It's not what secure people do. Secure people don't
secure people do. Secure people don't attach to you instantly.
attach to you instantly. >> Is that a form of manipulation?
>> Is that a form of manipulation? >> No, it's a form of insecurity. It's it's
>> No, it's a form of insecurity. It's it's a form because if it would be
a form because if it would be manipulation if they actually meant it,
manipulation if they actually meant it, but they don't. It's it's
but they don't. It's it's these inauthentic relationships that all
these inauthentic relationships that all of a sudden it's like, "Oh my gosh, we
of a sudden it's like, "Oh my gosh, we we're going to be best friends. I I love
we're going to be best friends. I I love you so much." And you're like, I I I'm
you so much." And you're like, I I I'm don't even know I don't even know your
don't even know I don't even know your last name. What are you What are you
last name. What are you What are you talking about? So, you see that a lot.
talking about? So, you see that a lot. Two is the over compliments. We all have
Two is the over compliments. We all have this sixth sense to be able to sniff out
this sixth sense to be able to sniff out if that's real or not. Like nobody needs
if that's real or not. Like nobody needs to teach you if it's a fake laugh or
to teach you if it's a fake laugh or not.
not. You know what I mean? Like Yeah.
You know what I mean? Like Yeah. [laughter] Right. I don't know. Was that
[laughter] Right. I don't know. Was that real or not, Stephen? Yeah. Yeah.
real or not, Stephen? Yeah. Yeah. >> It's so funny. Yeah. Because we we think
>> It's so funny. Yeah. Because we we think we can spot everyone else's fake laugh
we can spot everyone else's fake laugh and then conspars.
and then conspars. >> Exactly. [laughter] Exactly. Yeah. Yeah.
>> Exactly. [laughter] Exactly. Yeah. Yeah. That's exactly right. It's like But
That's exactly right. It's like But nobody had to teach that to you. Nobody
nobody had to teach that to you. Nobody had to say, "Hey, if you hear like this,
had to say, "Hey, if you hear like this, it's a fake laugh." No, no, no. We all
it's a fake laugh." No, no, no. We all as humans it's we have an ability a
as humans it's we have an ability a sense to go nah that didn't sound real
sense to go nah that didn't sound real that's not a real smile you know people
that's not a real smile you know people have their like photo smile and the real
have their like photo smile and the real smile
smile >> and the same with the the the laughter
>> and the same with the the the laughter or like that's not that wasn't that
or like that's not that wasn't that funny or they overcomplent something
funny or they overcomplent something they compliment your shoes I mean and
they compliment your shoes I mean and then they have really they go oh my gosh
then they have really they go oh my gosh I I I love that outfit and then all of a
I I I love that outfit and then all of a sudden they've turned their head you
sudden they've turned their head you know what I mean they're not really
know what I mean they're not really truly engaged in what it is it's just
truly engaged in what it is it's just it's it's a ritual to them of that's how
it's it's a ritual to them of that's how they have learned because to me if you
they have learned because to me if you have to perfectly curate yourself this
have to perfectly curate yourself this this sense of perfection you you're not
this sense of perfection you you're not getting the real human you're getting a
getting the real human you're getting a person in character you're getting them
person in character you're getting them in and scene you know they have to like
in and scene you know they have to like get into it and so it's it's um it's
get into it and so it's it's um it's something that's so so fake every every
something that's so so fake every every single time and then I the third that
single time and then I the third that you have to watch out for are the people
you have to watch out for are the people that aren't willing to actually have an
that aren't willing to actually have an interest in you.
interest in you. Meaning they never ask anything about
Meaning they never ask anything about you. They're only wanting to talk about
you. They're only wanting to talk about themselves. Like have you ever been in a
themselves. Like have you ever been in a I know you have and you're networking in
I know you have and you're networking in a big room and somebody's looking at you
a big room and somebody's looking at you and all of a sudden they're looking at
and all of a sudden they're looking at the room like they're they're looking
the room like they're they're looking for who they're going to talk to next
for who they're going to talk to next and you've lost them. And so it's like,
and you've lost them. And so it's like, why? We're both just kind of here saying
why? We're both just kind of here saying things. We're going to slow down our
things. We're going to slow down our words so it's not as awkward. And you
words so it's not as awkward. And you say things like, "Yeah, that's that's
say things like, "Yeah, that's that's crazy." Yeah. And like while you're both
crazy." Yeah. And like while you're both looking for somebody else to talk to,
looking for somebody else to talk to, but that's what happens. You realize you
but that's what happens. You realize you stay you come out of focus and they
stay you come out of focus and they they're looking for the next person. A
they're looking for the next person. A really um surprising point of uh
really um surprising point of uh feedback or compliment someone gave me
feedback or compliment someone gave me once and it's surprising because I never
once and it's surprising because I never considered it to be something that
considered it to be something that people were noticing is when I do like
people were noticing is when I do like meet and greets and you're meeting say
meet and greets and you're meeting say 100 people before or after a talk or
100 people before or after a talk or whatever and they're coming up one one
whatever and they're coming up one one at a time.
at a time. >> I will get DMs in the preceding days of
>> I will get DMs in the preceding days of people telling me that they liked the
people telling me that they liked the way that they watched me pay attention
way that they watched me pay attention to someone else.
to someone else. >> Do you get this
>> Do you get this >> all the time? Yeah. They're watching how
>> all the time? Yeah. They're watching how how interested you are in the person
how interested you are in the person that's talking to you.
that's talking to you. >> And I didn't I didn't obviously it's not
>> And I didn't I didn't obviously it's not something I'd thought about before until
something I'd thought about before until probably had about 20 messages over the
probably had about 20 messages over the last year or two from people saying and
last year or two from people saying and do you know what I noticed even how much
do you know what I noticed even how much you were paying attention to the person
you were paying attention to the person that spoke to you. Not to them. They
that spoke to you. Not to them. They were in the line waiting. [laughter] But
were in the line waiting. [laughter] But it's the per and I just thought that's
it's the per and I just thought that's so interesting that we judge
so interesting that we judge >> other people by how they interact with
>> other people by how they interact with >> other people while we're watching as
>> other people while we're watching as well.
well. >> Right. And that being interested is seen
>> Right. And that being interested is seen as makes you likable. I guess
as makes you likable. I guess >> presence is the highest form of
>> presence is the highest form of authenticity.
authenticity. >> Like I can talk to you, but am I here
>> Like I can talk to you, but am I here with you?
with you? >> Am I do I have my eyes with you? Am I am
>> Am I do I have my eyes with you? Am I am I interested in you? Am I going to am I
I interested in you? Am I going to am I easily distracted? Am I have my phone?
easily distracted? Am I have my phone? Am I am I really paying attention? Or am
Am I am I really paying attention? Or am I making sure that you know you are the
I making sure that you know you are the most important thing that's happening in
most important thing that's happening in this moment? Even if it's a glimmer and
this moment? Even if it's a glimmer and even if it's for 30, 20 seconds and
even if it's for 30, 20 seconds and you're doing a meet and greet and you're
you're doing a meet and greet and you're saying hi or you're signing their book,
saying hi or you're signing their book, do you ask them their name? Do you use
do you ask them their name? Do you use their name? Do you look at them with
their name? Do you look at them with intent of true genuine thank you for
intent of true genuine thank you for being here? None of this would happen if
being here? None of this would happen if not for you. People are watching the
not for you. People are watching the whole time and they they they know. I
whole time and they they they know. I mean, it's it's it's such a
mean, it's it's it's such a >> it's like what you know it when you feel
>> it's like what you know it when you feel it kind of thing. And to me, it's it's
it kind of thing. And to me, it's it's presence. Am I am I truly here with you?
presence. Am I am I truly here with you? Okay. Because even at the house, you
Okay. Because even at the house, you know, you can say, "Well, I'm home all
know, you can say, "Well, I'm home all the time, but are you are you just
the time, but are you are you just looking on your phone? Are you just
looking on your phone? Are you just sitting on the couch? Are you always
sitting on the couch? Are you always reading? Are you that's not presence?"
reading? Are you that's not presence?" >> I'm going to play this video on the
>> I'm going to play this video on the screen for anyone that's uh watching the
screen for anyone that's uh watching the video. Okay.
video. Okay. >> But it it immediately made me think of
>> But it it immediately made me think of um this clip that went viral of Miley
um this clip that went viral of Miley Cyrus and Amy Campbell.
Cyrus and Amy Campbell. >> Oh, I haven't seen this. They were doing
>> Oh, I haven't seen this. They were doing a meet and greet
a meet and greet together and they were just chatting to
together and they were just chatting to each other and kind of ignoring the
each other and kind of ignoring the fans. And you can
fans. And you can be
>> I just remember thinking this is like the antithesis of what we've just said.
the antithesis of what we've just said. >> It's painful to watch. I know it's
>> It's painful to watch. I know it's painful for the people. I mean I it's
painful for the people. I mean I it's several layers of where
several layers of where one, it's an area of really little
one, it's an area of really little forgiveness.
forgiveness. You know, if you think of somebody of of
You know, if you think of somebody of of her caliber, so to say, of like her
her caliber, so to say, of like her celebrity, right? Seen thousands,
celebrity, right? Seen thousands, millions, it's happened. And is there
millions, it's happened. And is there really room for just having a
really room for just having a conversation with somebody like if I if
conversation with somebody like if I if you're her, how do you what would be the
you're her, how do you what would be the justification? Right? If you could just
justification? Right? If you could just pause and say, "What is it?" Maybe you
pause and say, "What is it?" Maybe you say, "Well, there isn't any." Okay,
say, "Well, there isn't any." Okay, that's fine. But let's say one, when it
that's fine. But let's say one, when it comes to presence, there's really not
comes to presence, there's really not any room for
any room for forgiveness. It's it's either you're
forgiveness. It's it's either you're present with them or you're you're not
present with them or you're you're not because this kind of thing can last
because this kind of thing can last forever. Second of all, people will
forever. Second of all, people will forget what you did, but they'll never
forget what you did, but they'll never forget how you made them feel.
forget how you made them feel. And
And people will remember you, Stephen, of
people will remember you, Stephen, of they will tell their kids and their
they will tell their kids and their grandkids of the time that they met you
grandkids of the time that they met you and how nice you were, how present you
and how nice you were, how present you were, and how you were genuinely
were, and how you were genuinely interested in them. And that makes all
interested in them. And that makes all the difference. If you have one slip up,
the difference. If you have one slip up, that's when I say it's it's it's not
that's when I say it's it's it's not very forgivable. When when you have one
very forgivable. When when you have one slip up, it's showing applied to all
slip up, it's showing applied to all because if you can do it to them, you
because if you can do it to them, you can do it to me. The slip up will also
can do it to me. The slip up will also travel much further.
travel much further. >> Faster too.
>> Faster too. >> Yeah. Faster. F
>> Yeah. Faster. F >> because I guarantee you, you know, you
>> because I guarantee you, you know, you think of all the meet and greets that
think of all the meet and greets that somebody like that has had and has had
somebody like that has had and has had genuine real interest. They they mess up
genuine real interest. They they mess up one time, they get tired one time. Well,
one time, they get tired one time. Well, then all of a sudden that's what travels
then all of a sudden that's what travels way faster. So, but the thing is that
way faster. So, but the thing is that that's why I say presence is the highest
that's why I say presence is the highest form of authenticity because if you can
form of authenticity because if you can take that moment to be truly interested
take that moment to be truly interested in somebody because who am I? You know,
in somebody because who am I? You know, I'm I'm a guy from a small town who made
I'm I'm a guy from a small town who made videos in my car and you're going to
videos in my car and you're going to come to my book signing and you traveled
come to my book signing and you traveled and you flew in two hours. Like, why
and you flew in two hours. Like, why would I not? Hold up. Take the line. Let
would I not? Hold up. Take the line. Let me spend three minutes with you. Can I
me spend three minutes with you. Can I give three minutes of my life to talk to
give three minutes of my life to talk to you? What are you doing here? And so
you? What are you doing here? And so when you have
when you have that humility and there's several people
that humility and there's several people I know you know many names of they they
I know you know many names of they they forgot how they got what they got.
forgot how they got what they got. >> Oh yeah. I have a really interesting
>> Oh yeah. I have a really interesting example of this recently where we
example of this recently where we appointed a new chairman to our company.
appointed a new chairman to our company. >> He's called Nikki
>> He's called Nikki >> and um incredible guy. He's been at like
>> and um incredible guy. He's been at like he'd been proctor and gamble doing
he'd been proctor and gamble doing product for I don't know 12 years. then
product for I don't know 12 years. then went to Boston Consulting Group and was
went to Boston Consulting Group and was one of the senior figures at Boston
one of the senior figures at Boston Consulting Group for 25 years. And you
Consulting Group for 25 years. And you know, he's in the the home stretch of
know, he's in the the home stretch of his career.
his career. >> Mhm.
>> Mhm. >> And he joined our company
>> And he joined our company and
and he is, you know, he he's achieved so
he is, you know, he he's achieved so much. He's he's worked with the biggest
much. He's he's worked with the biggest the best in the world globally,
the best in the world globally, >> right?
>> right? >> So, he's got the right, one would say,
>> So, he's got the right, one would say, >> I like that,
>> I like that, >> to be a certain way. That's what someone
>> to be a certain way. That's what someone might say. But I'm over here in Los
might say. But I'm over here in Los Angeles. Um, he joins the company as
Angeles. Um, he joins the company as chairman. And the interesting thing, the
chairman. And the interesting thing, the interesting feedback I got, I know 5,000
interesting feedback I got, I know 5,000 miles away was a very junior member of
miles away was a very junior member of the team came up to me and said, "Oh, I
the team came up to me and said, "Oh, I love Nikki." And I was like, "Explain."
love Nikki." And I was like, "Explain." And he went, he sat down with me and
And he went, he sat down with me and gave me an hour of his time.
gave me an hour of his time. That was the reason he loved him.
That was the reason he loved him. >> That was it.
>> That was it. >> That was it. It was presence. and and
>> That was it. It was presence. and and what what I I [clears throat] later
what what I I [clears throat] later found out was that Nikki went into the
found out was that Nikki went into the company and there is hundreds of people
company and there is hundreds of people and he sat down with every single one of
and he sat down with every single one of them regardless of whether you're an
them regardless of whether you're an intern or whether you're the CEO and it
intern or whether you're the CEO and it always it's always stayed with me how
always it's always stayed with me how much that has mattered how much that has
much that has mattered how much that has shaped his perception just disproport
shaped his perception just disproport he's brilliant and everything but
he's brilliant and everything but disproportionately shaped his perception
disproportionately shaped his perception just by giving someone the most valuable
just by giving someone the most valuable thing which is just their time.
thing which is just their time. >> Yes. And um I mean maybe it's a a story
>> Yes. And um I mean maybe it's a a story of how to be a good partner. Maybe it's
of how to be a good partner. Maybe it's a story of how to [laughter] be in the
a story of how to [laughter] be in the public eye,
public eye, >> right?
>> right? >> Maybe it's also a story of how to be a
>> Maybe it's also a story of how to be a great colleague or team member or
great colleague or team member or leader.
leader. >> Yeah. Or just a great human. Yeah.
>> Yeah. Or just a great human. Yeah. [laughter] I I think there is um when
[laughter] I I think there is um when you're always in the habit of giving,
you're always in the habit of giving, giving then feels a lot like receiving.
giving then feels a lot like receiving. So when I'm giving my time, it also
So when I'm giving my time, it also feels like I'm receiving that time back.
feels like I'm receiving that time back. when I can continually have that spirit
when I can continually have that spirit and you have that knowledge of
and you have that knowledge of humility. They say, "What does humility
humility. They say, "What does humility mean?" It it means you realize that you
mean?" It it means you realize that you are just as weird and terrible as
are just as weird and terrible as everybody else. When you realize I I'm
everybody else. When you realize I I'm I'm the chief worst person there is. No,
I'm the chief worst person there is. No, I'm not better than a single person that
I'm not better than a single person that is in line to to do or attend something
is in line to to do or attend something or sit in an audience. I I am no better.
or sit in an audience. I I am no better. I've just been through a lot. Still been
I've just been through a lot. Still been through a lot. And so I know a lot. And
through a lot. And so I know a lot. And when you have that mindset of
when you have that mindset of I want to meet and touch every single
I want to meet and touch every single person. If I were to come in here
person. If I were to come in here and
and only talk to you, but not talk to your
only talk to you, but not talk to your team,
team, [clears throat] what's what do you think
[clears throat] what's what do you think that's going to do when you can go
that's going to do when you can go somewhere and not just talk to who's the
somewhere and not just talk to who's the most popular,
most popular, but also talk to who's the least? Like
but also talk to who's the least? Like it's it is you will always get way more.
it's it is you will always get way more. and for yourself and for the other
and for yourself and for the other person when you can lower yourself to
person when you can lower yourself to say, "Hey, we're just humans in a room.
say, "Hey, we're just humans in a room. How's it going?"
How's it going?" >> It's interesting that we um we're
>> It's interesting that we um we're figuring people out by how we observe
figuring people out by how we observe them vicariously. We were talking about
them vicariously. We were talking about it in the context of like a meet and
it in the context of like a meet and greet a second ago. Yeah.
greet a second ago. Yeah. >> What you said there tracks perfectly
>> What you said there tracks perfectly with with that, which is when you walked
with with that, which is when you walked in the room, you didn't just speak to
in the room, you didn't just speak to me, you also asked Berta, who's
me, you also asked Berta, who's recording the podcast today, what her
recording the podcast today, what her name was. And then you said to Berta,
name was. And then you said to Berta, you said, "Thank you for doing this."
you said, "Thank you for doing this." right
right >> now. Isn't it funny that I remember?
>> now. Isn't it funny that I remember? >> Yeah. Yeah.
>> Yeah. Yeah. >> Isn't it funny that that was like two
>> Isn't it funny that that was like two and a half hours ago and I remember
and a half hours ago and I remember because it was really memorable to me
because it was really memorable to me that you did that
that you did that >> because not everybody does that. Not
>> because not everybody does that. Not everybody will, you know, notice that
everybody will, you know, notice that >> B is in the room with us and she's
>> B is in the room with us and she's running all these cameras and she's
running all these cameras and she's putting it together. But for some
putting it together. But for some reason, just before we started
reason, just before we started recording, you made a point of asking
recording, you made a point of asking her what her name was and then
her what her name was and then >> and then thanking her for doing this
>> and then thanking her for doing this today. Yeah.
today. Yeah. >> Most people don't do that.
>> Most people don't do that. >> And as you walk away from today, I'm not
>> And as you walk away from today, I'm not going to remember like that you you
going to remember like that you you walked in and said something nice about
walked in and said something nice about me or whatever. The most shocking thing
me or whatever. The most shocking thing and therefore the most memorable because
and therefore the most memorable because it is the most unusual
it is the most unusual >> because it is typically the most
>> because it is typically the most overlooked is you acknowledging the
overlooked is you acknowledging the other people.
other people. >> Yeah.
>> Yeah. >> And um
>> And um I've noticed this as a paradox that I
I've noticed this as a paradox that I almost need to put words to, but I I
almost need to put words to, but I I remember
remember in something I wrote a long time ago
in something I wrote a long time ago saying how useless absurdity will define
saying how useless absurdity will define you more than useful practicality. And
you more than useful practicality. And what I mean by that is the example I was
what I mean by that is the example I was giving was in the context of my old gym
giving was in the context of my old gym where they have this massive climbing
where they have this massive climbing wall in the entrance. And I came home to
wall in the entrance. And I came home to my girlfriend and said, "There's this
my girlfriend and said, "There's this incredible gym. It's massive. They even
incredible gym. It's massive. They even have a 100 foot climbing wall in the
have a 100 foot climbing wall in the entrance." What I'm doing is I'm
entrance." What I'm doing is I'm pointing at the most absurd thing to
pointing at the most absurd thing to give you a shortcut that tells you
give you a shortcut that tells you everything about that gym. Now, if I
everything about that gym. Now, if I point at the most absurd thing, you know
point at the most absurd thing, you know the gym is big.
the gym is big. >> Oh, I got chills. Yeah. Yeah. So good.
>> Oh, I got chills. Yeah. Yeah. So good. Yes. If I say there's 100 foot climbing
Yes. If I say there's 100 foot climbing wall, you know, there's lots of running
wall, you know, there's lots of running machines,
machines, >> right?
>> right? >> So, if I if I when I leave here and go,
>> So, if I if I when I leave here and go, he was so nice. He even spoke to Ber and
he was so nice. He even spoke to Ber and um thanked her for doing the podcast.
um thanked her for doing the podcast. I'm using that as a shortcut because
I'm using that as a shortcut because it's the most standout absurd thing to
it's the most standout absurd thing to tell other people everything about you.
tell other people everything about you. >> Yes. I love that.
>> Yes. I love that. >> And this is why we should value the the
>> And this is why we should value the the seemingly petty and seemingly small and
seemingly petty and seemingly small and seemingly inconsequential because other
seemingly inconsequential because other people don't. Therefore, it creates
people don't. Therefore, it creates maximal impact.
maximal impact. >> Yes. That that's why the big
>> Yes. That that's why the big conversations rarely matter. the small
conversations rarely matter. the small ones do. It's the small ones with
ones do. It's the small ones with strangers. It's the conversations you
strangers. It's the conversations you don't have on the stage. It's the
don't have on the stage. It's the conversations you have in your driveway.
conversations you have in your driveway. It's the conversations you have in your
It's the conversations you have in your backyard at the coffee shop. It's it's
backyard at the coffee shop. It's it's the conversations you have to somebody
the conversations you have to somebody passing by in the elevator. Like, it's
passing by in the elevator. Like, it's those that that's what defines the human
those that that's what defines the human experience. If I were to text you a
experience. If I were to text you a compliment, right? That's one thing. But
compliment, right? That's one thing. But if I were to say, "Hey, I just finished
if I were to say, "Hey, I just finished lunch with soand so who you also know. I
lunch with soand so who you also know. I got to tell you, this person loves you
got to tell you, this person loves you so much and and I share with you what
so much and and I share with you what they said about you, you're going to
they said about you, you're going to take that differently.
take that differently. >> If I wanted to give you, let's say if
>> If I wanted to give you, let's say if someone want to give me a gift, right?
someone want to give me a gift, right? But instead, they didn't give it to me,
But instead, they didn't give it to me, they gave it to my kids.
they gave it to my kids. >> I mean, that's h how much more would
>> I mean, that's h how much more would that define how much they care,
that define how much they care, >> right? It it's anytime I go on a a
>> right? It it's anytime I go on a a stage, I make it a priority that I know
stage, I make it a priority that I know the guy who's or girl who's putting on
the guy who's or girl who's putting on my the AV system, the lapel mic, the
my the AV system, the lapel mic, the everything. I want to know their name. I
everything. I want to know their name. I know how how many times they've done
know how how many times they've done this today, how they're doing because
this today, how they're doing because it's so easy just to turn and keep
it's so easy just to turn and keep talking to who's important while and act
talking to who's important while and act like they're just doing it. Like it's
like they're just doing it. Like it's when you can truly talk to the people
when you can truly talk to the people that's just a regular person and forget
that's just a regular person and forget that you you don't have to just stick to
that you you don't have to just stick to the somebodyodies. You don't have to
the somebodyodies. You don't have to look always for the somebodyodies. I
look always for the somebodyodies. I used to say that I again this comes from
used to say that I again this comes from employing a lot of people that we all
employing a lot of people that we all have invisible PR
have invisible PR >> and it's and it shows up in the moments
>> and it's and it shows up in the moments that matters the most but it's built in
that matters the most but it's built in the moments that seem to matter the
the moments that seem to matter the least.
least. >> Yeah. And the example I always think of
>> Yeah. And the example I always think of is being working in the New York office
is being working in the New York office um many years ago and getting a message
um many years ago and getting a message from my team member just saying, "Oh,
from my team member just saying, "Oh, Jenny's so nice. She just Tim tripped
Jenny's so nice. She just Tim tripped over and Jenny immediately got up from
over and Jenny immediately got up from her desk and ran across uh to the first
her desk and ran across uh to the first aid kit and sorted him out. She's so
aid kit and sorted him out. She's so nice." And I'd hear that 3,000 miles
nice." And I'd hear that 3,000 miles away. And then a year later, I'd be sat
away. And then a year later, I'd be sat with Jenny during her promotion
with Jenny during her promotion conversation.
conversation. >> Yeah. And that one thing she did, that
>> Yeah. And that one thing she did, that small thing she did was often the time
small thing she did was often the time where I'd go, you know what, this person
where I'd go, you know what, this person is a certain type of person and we
is a certain type of person and we should
should >> double down on them. And then I've got
>> double down on them. And then I've got the opposite as well.
the opposite as well. >> I've got the a little thing someone did
>> I've got the a little thing someone did to someone who was not necessarily their
to someone who was not necessarily their line manager or significant.
line manager or significant. >> Yeah.
>> Yeah. >> And it, you know, and even things that
>> And it, you know, and even things that happened to me years ago when I came up
happened to me years ago when I came up to I walked up to someone famous. I've
to I walked up to someone famous. I've told this story. It's so crazy. I told
told this story. It's so crazy. I told this story on the podcast like episode
this story on the podcast like episode three [laughter] and no one listened and
three [laughter] and no one listened and then um like 3 four years later the
then um like 3 four years later the podcast got bigger and people started
podcast got bigger and people started listening to people go back to the old
listening to people go back to the old episodes.
episodes. >> Mhm.
>> Mhm. >> And this famous person tweeted me like
>> And this famous person tweeted me like four years later I was like I heard
four years later I was like I heard you're talking about me in the UK blah
you're talking about me in the UK blah blah blah blah blah.
blah blah blah blah. >> But I was I was just sharing as an
>> But I was I was just sharing as an example for like invisible PR where
example for like invisible PR where someone I'd gone up to someone famous
someone I'd gone up to someone famous and asked them a question and they just
and asked them a question and they just like
like >> bang. Yeah.
>> bang. Yeah. >> Like laid into me.
>> Like laid into me. >> Right. And I and I, you know, I don't
>> Right. And I and I, you know, I don't know what they're going through that
know what they're going through that day, but it it always, you know,
day, but it it always, you know, >> well, that's but that brings it around
>> well, that's but that brings it around like full circle because like we just
like full circle because like we just said, you can have those little moments
said, you can have those little moments where it's it's the rock wall, right?
where it's it's the rock wall, right? Where little moments of connection, of
Where little moments of connection, of presence, of real authenticity, of them
presence, of real authenticity, of them being with you that you'll remember
being with you that you'll remember forever.
forever. And I bet if I had to guess, there's a
And I bet if I had to guess, there's a moment in Steven at the playground
moment in Steven at the playground growing up that or a teacher, somebody
growing up that or a teacher, somebody in your life said something that was
in your life said something that was nice and you've remembered forever.
nice and you've remembered forever. >> Oh, yeah.
>> Oh, yeah. >> But I
>> But I would also venture a bit.
would also venture a bit. >> Yes. Before you've even said, I could I
>> Yes. Before you've even said, I could I thought of the moment
thought of the moment >> that Okay.
>> that Okay. >> Playground Steven where somebody said
>> Playground Steven where somebody said something hurtful.
something hurtful. >> Yeah.
>> Yeah. >> Or rude or said something about how you
>> Or rude or said something about how you look or your appearance. Maybe not even
look or your appearance. Maybe not even recess, but sometime in your life.
recess, but sometime in your life. >> Oh yeah.
>> Oh yeah. >> And it was just something maybe it was
>> And it was just something maybe it was about for a lot of people it's like
about for a lot of people it's like their weight or their appearance or
their weight or their appearance or their looks and they've carried that
their looks and they've carried that around with them forever and that like
around with them forever and that like without knowing it that person gave you
without knowing it that person gave you an insecurity for the rest of your life.
an insecurity for the rest of your life. And so it's so wild to me how the
And so it's so wild to me how the positive is remembered,
positive is remembered, the negative is remembered much longer
the negative is remembered much longer and travels a lot farther. And I mean
and travels a lot farther. And I mean it's when I ask that to a group that I'm
it's when I ask that to a group that I'm talking to, those hands are always way
talking to, those hands are always way more raised for the negative, for the
more raised for the negative, for the one thing that the power of your words
one thing that the power of your words lasts way longer than you'd ever think.
lasts way longer than you'd ever think. The ripple effect will affect people
The ripple effect will affect people you've never met. I mean, you think
you've never met. I mean, you think think of the people who you've touched
think of the people who you've touched and the people you've never met, but yet
and the people you've never met, but yet they have a perception of you based
they have a perception of you based three persons down,
three persons down, >> right? And how I talk to my kids will
>> right? And how I talk to my kids will affect how they talk to their kids and
affect how they talk to their kids and their kids. Children I'll never meet.
their kids. Children I'll never meet. And when you realize that how I talk to
And when you realize that how I talk to the person behind the cashier affects
the person behind the cashier affects how he or she talks to their kids when
how he or she talks to their kids when they go home based on what I said will
they go home based on what I said will determine whether they come home and
determine whether they come home and say, "I had a really bad day. I had a
say, "I had a really bad day. I had a really hard day and it it's because of
really hard day and it it's because of what I said because I was rude or I was
what I said because I was rude or I was impatient because they didn't get it to
impatient because they didn't get it to me fast enough and all of a sudden
me fast enough and all of a sudden without knowing just as much as the
without knowing just as much as the positive lasts so does the negative.
positive lasts so does the negative. It's now I what I chose to say is
It's now I what I chose to say is responsible for how they're treating
responsible for how they're treating their own kids.
their own kids. >> And that's what how we are as humans,
>> And that's what how we are as humans, right? Like we um the reason why we
right? Like we um the reason why we survived is because we're good at
survived is because we're good at gossip.
gossip. >> That too.
>> That too. >> We're good at passing on stories. So,
>> We're good at passing on stories. So, you know, I could tell people before
you know, I could tell people before they met you if you were a risk.
they met you if you were a risk. >> No. Yeah.
>> No. Yeah. >> I could, you know, don't go near him.
>> I could, you know, don't go near him. Don't go near that cave. There's a
Don't go near that cave. There's a >> threat person in there that's going to
>> threat person in there that's going to kill us. So,
kill us. So, >> right.
>> right. >> It's a survival adaptation, I guess, in
>> It's a survival adaptation, I guess, in some respects to be gossipy and to pass
some respects to be gossipy and to pass on people's reputations.
on people's reputations. >> But we've always asked what's the news?
>> But we've always asked what's the news? >> You know, people going through town from
>> You know, people going through town from town to town. You you didn't you didn't
town to town. You you didn't you didn't really have a paper. It's do you have
really have a paper. It's do you have any news?
any news? So, I'm going to push you to close to
So, I'm going to push you to close to give me the five things that you think
give me the five things that you think are most important for anyone who's
are most important for anyone who's striving to be a masterful communicator,
striving to be a masterful communicator, conversationalist
conversationalist to get what they want out of life, which
to get what they want out of life, which is really what I think is it is the last
is really what I think is it is the last domino when we talk about body language
domino when we talk about body language or communication tactics or all the
or communication tactics or all the things we're talking about. I think
things we're talking about. I think people are trying to get something out
people are trying to get something out of life, whether it's to have a better
of life, whether it's to have a better relationship or to
relationship or to be respected or what, get a promotion,
be respected or what, get a promotion, to be successful. I think that's
to be successful. I think that's probably the the output we're looking
probably the the output we're looking for
for >> ultimately. Do you agree with that? I
>> ultimately. Do you agree with that? I don't want to like what is it that
don't want to like what is it that what's the last domino that people are
what's the last domino that people are looking for when they talk about this
looking for when they talk about this stuff up here?
stuff up here? >> Selfworth.
>> Selfworth. >> Selfworth. Okay.
>> Selfworth. Okay. >> Am I Am I enough?
>> Am I Am I enough? >> Am I enough? Okay.
>> Am I enough? Okay. So what are the what are the five most
So what are the what are the five most important things to summarize if you had
important things to summarize if you had to give me five.
to give me five. >> The first is authenticity.
>> The first is authenticity. If I cannot be genuine with you, if I
If I cannot be genuine with you, if I cannot be real with you, then I can be
cannot be real with you, then I can be nobody to you.
nobody to you. >> And on authenticity,
>> And on authenticity, you know, on your bad day, are you still
you know, on your bad day, are you still authentic at work?
authentic at work? >> Yes.
>> Yes. >> Like if you're if you're really, you
>> Like if you're if you're really, you know, having a [clears throat] bad day,
know, having a [clears throat] bad day, do you show up to work as your authentic
do you show up to work as your authentic self?
self? >> I would say yes. I mean, there's
>> I would say yes. I mean, there's obviously certain parameters that are
obviously certain parameters that are within social norms of just because I'm
within social norms of just because I'm having a a bad time and in a bad mood,
having a a bad time and in a bad mood, does that give me a right to rip you a
does that give me a right to rip you a new one? Uh, just because you said hello
new one? Uh, just because you said hello to me that morning, you know? No. But I
to me that morning, you know? No. But I I think that there is certainly a space
I think that there is certainly a space to say, don't act h like you're happy
to say, don't act h like you're happy when you're not.
when you're not. >> What about lying? Is that a violation of
>> What about lying? Is that a violation of authenticity? So, a colleague comes up
authenticity? So, a colleague comes up to me, they say, "What do you think of
to me, they say, "What do you think of my new
my new haircut?" And you think it's terrible?
haircut?" And you think it's terrible? Yeah.
Yeah. >> What you What' you say?
>> What you What' you say? >> It's an interesting choice. [laughter]
>> It's an interesting choice. [laughter] Probably is what I'd say.
Probably is what I'd say. >> So, you wouldn't lie.
>> So, you wouldn't lie. >> No, I wouldn't. I would probably change
>> No, I wouldn't. I would probably change it to where it's I'm glad that they like
it to where it's I'm glad that they like it. You know, I I don't have to like it
it. You know, I I don't have to like it for you to give it any type of worth. If
for you to give it any type of worth. If you like it, that's awesome.
you like it, that's awesome. >> And authenticity as a strategy builds
>> And authenticity as a strategy builds trust over time. So, that's a long-term
trust over time. So, that's a long-term game, I guess.
game, I guess. >> Yeah. No, I I came across some research
>> Yeah. No, I I came across some research uh recently where it was in social
uh recently where it was in social settings, those that are more authentic
settings, those that are more authentic are also the ones that are more trusted
are also the ones that are more trusted and the ones you want to be around more.
and the ones you want to be around more. >> Why do people struggle with
>> Why do people struggle with authenticity? It goes back to this point
authenticity? It goes back to this point about people pleasing, I guess. But
about people pleasing, I guess. But there is a certain type of person, I
there is a certain type of person, I think, that probably struggles to just
think, that probably struggles to just be,
you know, just to show up in all the ways that they
ways that they they are to be themselves. They grew up
they are to be themselves. They grew up in places that weren't safe,
in places that weren't safe, whether physically or emotionally.
whether physically or emotionally. They they grew up unsafe. And so they're
They they grew up unsafe. And so they're always tense. They're always anxious.
always tense. They're always anxious. They're always worried about the next
They're always worried about the next shoe to drop. They can't rest.
shoe to drop. They can't rest. You see people that had come from very
You see people that had come from very hard, harsh environments.
hard, harsh environments. you'll see the survival skills that have
you'll see the survival skills that have come out of that. Um,
come out of that. Um, it's because they they simply didn't
it's because they they simply didn't have a place to be safe.
have a place to be safe. >> Number two,
>> Number two, >> reduce the amount of distraction.
>> reduce the amount of distraction. >> Reduce distraction. Is that the same as
>> Reduce distraction. Is that the same as saying like increase presence?
saying like increase presence? >> Well, that is the the benefit of it.
>> Well, that is the the benefit of it. Yeah.
Yeah. If you want to increase your presence,
If you want to increase your presence, you have to eliminate distractions. And
you have to eliminate distractions. And that means eliminate how often you're on
that means eliminate how often you're on your phone.
your phone. >> I've got some thread here. Do you know
>> I've got some thread here. Do you know why this is here?
why this is here? >> Yes.
>> Yes. >> Well, you explain.
>> Well, you explain. >> Well, I mean, so just a piece of very
>> Well, I mean, so just a piece of very pretty red string. And this string is
pretty red string. And this string is going to represent the connection
going to represent the connection between the two of us. So, give you the
between the two of us. So, give you the end of it. What I just gave you is a
end of it. What I just gave you is a piece of string. And it connects between
piece of string. And it connects between your hand and my hand. And it's taught
your hand and my hand. And it's taught right now. So this string right now
right now. So this string right now represents the connection between us in
represents the connection between us in conversation.
conversation. >> It's tight.
>> It's tight. >> It's very tight. I'm going to ask
>> It's very tight. I'm going to ask questions throughout this that don't
questions throughout this that don't think about how what the right answer
think about how what the right answer is. Just go with what your gut instinct
is. Just go with what your gut instinct of how it feels. So right now it's
of how it feels. So right now it's tight. And if I look at you in the eye
tight. And if I look at you in the eye and I say, "Stephen, how's it going,
and I say, "Stephen, how's it going, man?"
man?" >> It's going good. Yeah.
>> It's going good. Yeah. >> Yeah. What was something that frustrated
>> Yeah. What was something that frustrated you yesterday?
you yesterday? >> My haircut didn't go to plan. Tell me
>> My haircut didn't go to plan. Tell me about it.
about it. >> It's just not It's not good. I don't
>> It's just not It's not good. I don't like it.
like it. >> Do you find that some of the the biggest
>> Do you find that some of the the biggest struggles you had yesterday was mostly
struggles you had yesterday was mostly with business or personal or Tell me
with business or personal or Tell me something with business.
something with business. >> Um [sighs] the struggles with business
>> Um [sighs] the struggles with business yesterday.
yesterday. >> Yeah.
>> Yeah. >> Oh, go ahead.
>> Oh, go ahead. >> Okay. So, you're on your phone now and
>> Okay. So, you're on your phone now and the connection has been reduced.
the connection has been reduced. >> Um
>> Um >> Yeah. So, I just pulled out my phone and
>> Yeah. So, I just pulled out my phone and now I'm looking. And what did you feel
now I'm looking. And what did you feel in the line?
in the line? >> I felt like the tightness went it went
>> I felt like the tightness went it went loose.
loose. >> Yeah, it went slack. Right. And but
>> Yeah, it went slack. Right. And but that's the physical. What was
that's the physical. What was emotionally? How did that feel?
emotionally? How did that feel? >> It felt disrespectful.
>> It felt disrespectful. >> Yeah. And see if I had just both had
>> Yeah. And see if I had just both had both hands on it like this. Now let's
both hands on it like this. Now let's put it taught again and I'm talking to
put it taught again and I'm talking to you and I say, "So what's what are you
you and I say, "So what's what are you looking forward to this weekend?"
looking forward to this weekend?" >> I'm looking forward to
>> I'm looking forward to >> No, go ahead. And this is me just turn.
>> No, go ahead. And this is me just turn. It's still tight. Don't worry. It's I
It's still tight. Don't worry. It's I still am connected to you, you know.
still am connected to you, you know. Don't worry about it. I'm I'm right
Don't worry about it. I'm I'm right here. Go ahead. Yeah. [laughter]
here. Go ahead. Yeah. [laughter] Exactly. You see how all of a sudden you
Exactly. You see how all of a sudden you wanted to let go now.
wanted to let go now. >> Yeah. Yeah.
>> Yeah. Yeah. >> Yeah. For anybody listening. So you we
>> Yeah. For anybody listening. So you we both had it tight. I look at my phone
both had it tight. I look at my phone while still holding it tight where I'm
while still holding it tight where I'm saying, "No, no, I'm listening. Go right
saying, "No, no, I'm listening. Go right ahead." And all of a sudden, you are the
ahead." And all of a sudden, you are the one that let go of the line.
one that let go of the line. >> Yeah.
>> Yeah. >> Isn't that something? Because all of a
>> Isn't that something? Because all of a sudden, you gave up on the conversation.
sudden, you gave up on the conversation. You didn't want to be in it anymore.
You didn't want to be in it anymore. What do you typically do if somebody's
What do you typically do if somebody's at dinner with you and they pull out
at dinner with you and they pull out their phone?
their phone? >> I mean, you look away or you can speak
>> I mean, you look away or you can speak to someone else or you
to someone else or you >> or you pull out your phone.
>> or you pull out your phone. >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
>> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. >> Exactly. You It's like they've given you
>> Exactly. You It's like they've given you permission to now pick up their phone.
permission to now pick up their phone. Somebody gets on theirs and you don't
Somebody gets on theirs and you don't want to look awkward or odd. So, what
want to look awkward or odd. So, what you you get out yours and next thing you
you you get out yours and next thing you know, both of you are on your phones at
know, both of you are on your phones at dinner where you're supposed to be
dinner where you're supposed to be communicating with each other and you're
communicating with each other and you're just staring at your phone. Do you think
just staring at your phone. Do you think I sometimes think this with me being an
I sometimes think this with me being an interviewer having this iPad in front of
interviewer having this iPad in front of me, I'm like, should I get rid of the
me, I'm like, should I get rid of the iPad?
iPad? >> Maybe I should because I write things
>> Maybe I should because I write things down while someone's speaking to me and
down while someone's speaking to me and I I do worry sometimes that if I'm like
I I do worry sometimes that if I'm like looking at a particular point or fact or
looking at a particular point or fact or whatever that I'm
whatever that I'm >> It's a little bit different. So, there's
>> It's a little bit different. So, there's a part of this that is it's it's a
a part of this that is it's it's a production. We have cameras. We have
production. We have cameras. We have lights. Like, this isn't a normal just
lights. Like, this isn't a normal just if you and I were having coffee. But
if you and I were having coffee. But let's say you and I were having lunch
let's say you and I were having lunch and I'm talking like this to you and I
and I'm talking like this to you and I put my phone right here.
put my phone right here. >> Do you feel a difference?
>> Do you feel a difference? >> Yeah, I do. Yeah.
>> Yeah, I do. Yeah. >> Do you feel I'm more connected or less
>> Do you feel I'm more connected or less connected?
connected? >> Less connected.
>> Less connected. >> Yeah. And if I
>> Yeah. And if I >> am mixed priorities, not the priority.
>> am mixed priorities, not the priority. >> Do you feel any different if I flip it
>> Do you feel any different if I flip it over?
over? >> Yes, I do.
>> Yes, I do. >> And my face is it's it's down.
>> And my face is it's it's down. >> Yes, I do. It's a signal
>> Yes, I do. It's a signal >> of
>> of >> that you think this is more important
>> that you think this is more important and you don't want to be distracted.
and you don't want to be distracted. >> Imagine what would you feel like if
>> Imagine what would you feel like if you were on a date or got together with
you were on a date or got together with a friend
a friend >> and you just said, "Hey, where's your
>> and you just said, "Hey, where's your phone?" He said, "Oh, I just left it in
phone?" He said, "Oh, I just left it in the car. I just wanted to sit with you."
the car. I just wanted to sit with you." >> Yes. Incredible.
>> Yes. Incredible. >> Does anybody do that?
>> Does anybody do that? >> No.
>> No. >> No. Nobody does that. But imagine
>> No. Nobody does that. But imagine imagine if right now there was uh let's
imagine if right now there was uh let's say a woman is about to go on a date and
say a woman is about to go on a date and she asked a guy, "Where's your phone?"
she asked a guy, "Where's your phone?" And he goes, "Oh, I left it in the left
And he goes, "Oh, I left it in the left it in the car."
it in the car." I mean, what kind of
I mean, what kind of >> You think it was kind of weird?
>> You think it was kind of weird? >> Yeah. Almost like what? You mean you
>> Yeah. Almost like what? You mean you want to be solely interested in me? I'm
want to be solely interested in me? I'm signaling that there is nothing else
signaling that there is nothing else more important than what's going on
more important than what's going on right here.
right here. >> So, that's so such atypical behavior.
>> So, that's so such atypical behavior. Some people might see it as a red flag.
Some people might see it as a red flag. >> I No, that's probably true. But if I
>> I No, that's probably true. But if I have it here, even if I put it face down
have it here, even if I put it face down on the table and I'm talking to you,
on the table and I'm talking to you, >> I'm at least still having my world, my
>> I'm at least still having my world, my business, my stress, my chaos. It's my
business, my stress, my chaos. It's my It's my pacifier. You don't you're not
It's my pacifier. You don't you're not going to ask me to take away my blanket,
going to ask me to take away my blanket, are you?
are you? >> Yeah.
>> Yeah. >> And so I'm still it's still there in the
>> And so I'm still it's still there in the conversation with us. So even if I put
conversation with us. So even if I put it down or I put it between my legs or I
it down or I put it between my legs or I put it in my pocket, which I think is
put it in my pocket, which I think is much better of not letting it come out
much better of not letting it come out at all, but it's what's the strength of
at all, but it's what's the strength of the connection? Because we've all been
the connection? Because we've all been that person like we just showed with the
that person like we just showed with the string where they get out their phone
string where they get out their phone while you're talking and like Mhm. Yeah.
while you're talking and like Mhm. Yeah. Yeah. Uh-huh. Right. Go ahead. And you
Yeah. Uh-huh. Right. Go ahead. And you go, I don't want this.
go, I don't want this. >> Yeah. you let go because it's like
>> Yeah. you let go because it's like that's this isn't real this isn't real
that's this isn't real this isn't real connection. So if you want to be a
connection. So if you want to be a better communicator, you have to
better communicator, you have to understand the definition of true
understand the definition of true connection. It's keeping it taught.
connection. It's keeping it taught. >> I am so shocked when I go to restaurants
>> I am so shocked when I go to restaurants with my girlfriend cuz we have a rule
with my girlfriend cuz we have a rule and this is actually a rule that I
and this is actually a rule that I completely agreed with.
completely agreed with. >> Yeah.
>> Yeah. >> Which is like when we go on a date or we
>> Which is like when we go on a date or we go to a restaurant, there's no phones.
go to a restaurant, there's no phones. >> Exactly.
>> Exactly. >> We're not going to be on our phones in a
>> We're not going to be on our phones in a restaurant.
restaurant. >> It's mind-blowing.
>> It's mind-blowing. >> Mindblowing. We went to um when we were
>> Mindblowing. We went to um when we were we've been here all this week and and we
we've been here all this week and and we went to a restaurant Sier and I and I
went to a restaurant Sier and I and I saw so many couples and people and
saw so many couples and people and friends and that were just at the table
friends and that were just at the table and it it was it was dark evening and
and it it was it was dark evening and all you see is the glow of phones just
all you see is the glow of phones just everybody just sitting there on their
everybody just sitting there on their phone. It's just it's it's crazy to me.
phone. It's just it's it's crazy to me. or or the people that are on their couch
or or the people that are on their couch with the TV on both of them are on their
with the TV on both of them are on their phones and and they're supposed to be
phones and and they're supposed to be watching a movie together.
watching a movie together. >> You know, everyone people watches a
>> You know, everyone people watches a little bit and restaurants. Yeah. So,
little bit and restaurants. Yeah. So, I'm not going to pretend we don't.
I'm not going to pretend we don't. >> Yeah. At least I'm not going to do that.
>> Yeah. At least I'm not going to do that. I'm
I'm >> But we we will be in a restaurant and we
>> But we we will be in a restaurant and we just sometimes play a little game where
just sometimes play a little game where we kind of guess how long people have
we kind of guess how long people have been together based on how they're
been together based on how they're behaving.
behaving. >> Oh, I like that. Yeah, that's fun. And
>> Oh, I like that. Yeah, that's fun. And so it's it tends to be the case that
so it's it tends to be the case that it's the younger couples where there's a
it's the younger couples where there's a man and a woman and they're both on
man and a woman and they're both on their phone and I just can't believe
their phone and I just can't believe what I'm seeing.
what I'm seeing. >> Yeah.
>> Yeah. >> Like I'm look I got my phone a lot but
>> Like I'm look I got my phone a lot but if I'm on a date I am not going to be
if I'm on a date I am not going to be sat there looking at a screen while
sat there looking at a screen while she's sat there looking on a screen just
she's sat there looking on a screen just in total silence.
in total silence. >> Even if I've known this woman for 35
>> Even if I've known this woman for 35 years.
years. >> Yeah. It's become so much of a an
>> Yeah. It's become so much of a an emotional pacifier when I don't like the
emotional pacifier when I don't like the angst of having to wait in line by
angst of having to wait in line by myself. I don't like having to sit on
myself. I don't like having to sit on the the subway or the tube or the metro
the the subway or the tube or the metro or whatever by myself. I I get out I get
or whatever by myself. I I get out I get out my phone. I don't it it prevents me
out my phone. I don't it it prevents me from having to have dialogue. So
from having to have dialogue. So instead, I'd rather just look at my
instead, I'd rather just look at my phone and watch and scroll versus
phone and watch and scroll versus communicating. Like there's imagine
communicating. Like there's imagine waiting for your haircut and everybody
waiting for your haircut and everybody in the room is actually talking to one
in the room is actually talking to one another like they used to and it would
another like they used to and it would just be wild to you. Everybody in a
just be wild to you. Everybody in a doctor's office in the waiting room
doctor's office in the waiting room everybody's looking at their phone. So
everybody's looking at their phone. So yeah, to me it's such a distraction and
yeah, to me it's such a distraction and that means even at the house too I think
that means even at the house too I think even more so when it comes to the house.
even more so when it comes to the house. >> So that was point number two which was
>> So that was point number two which was reducing distraction and therefore
reducing distraction and therefore increasing presence. Three, stop over
increasing presence. Three, stop over explaining.
explaining. You have to invest in the right words.
You have to invest in the right words. Meaning, if you are constantly just
Meaning, if you are constantly just gushing words the whole time,
gushing words the whole time, >> does it make you want to listen to that
>> does it make you want to listen to that person more or less?
person more or less? >> Oh, yeah. I mean, you just kind of
>> Oh, yeah. I mean, you just kind of discount it.
discount it. >> Yeah. Yeah. All of a sudden, it's it's
>> Yeah. Yeah. All of a sudden, it's it's kind of like the that story about the
kind of like the that story about the boy who cried wolf. like you you you
boy who cried wolf. like you you you talk so much that the message gets lost.
talk so much that the message gets lost. If I'm always
If I'm always talking a lot, it's easy to tune it out.
talking a lot, it's easy to tune it out. It's like it becomes its own static. But
It's like it becomes its own static. But if you choose your words, if I'm going
if you choose your words, if I'm going to slow down, so how do you how do you
to slow down, so how do you how do you stop yourself from overexlaining
stop yourself from overexlaining instead of being a waterfall? Be a well.
instead of being a waterfall? Be a well. Meaning rather than trying to gush out
Meaning rather than trying to gush out information, get them swept away in your
information, get them swept away in your message, you have a confidence in
message, you have a confidence in holding your knowledge. If they have a
holding your knowledge. If they have a question, they'll ask. You're available
question, they'll ask. You're available for the question should they want to
for the question should they want to ask. But I'm going to give you always
ask. But I'm going to give you always exactly what you need if I choose to be
exactly what you need if I choose to be a well with my information rather than
a well with my information rather than just gushing. Because when I overexlain,
just gushing. Because when I overexlain, all somebody's doing is indicating that
all somebody's doing is indicating that I don't really know if I believe what
I don't really know if I believe what I'm saying or you believe what I'm
I'm saying or you believe what I'm saying, so I need to say more. I notice
saying, so I need to say more. I notice there's such power in when someone asks
there's such power in when someone asks you a question, taking a moment to
you a question, taking a moment to think. And actually sometimes I notice
think. And actually sometimes I notice some people will actually say, "Let me
some people will actually say, "Let me just think about that."
just think about that." >> And the minute they do that, I'm I'm
>> And the minute they do that, I'm I'm immediately doing the opposite of
immediately doing the opposite of discounting what they say. I'm now
discounting what they say. I'm now actually at baited breath to think about
actually at baited breath to think about to hear this very thoughtful, considered
to hear this very thoughtful, considered thing they're about to share with me.
thing they're about to share with me. >> Right.
>> Right. >> Whereas you see a lot of people do the
>> Whereas you see a lot of people do the opposite. The minute they're asked
opposite. The minute they're asked anything, it's just like the floodgates
anything, it's just like the floodgates open and they start filling the silence
open and they start filling the silence with and they start thinking out loud.
with and they start thinking out loud. >> Exactly. They're they're external
>> Exactly. They're they're external thinkers. What I teach is let your first
thinkers. What I teach is let your first word be your breath. Meaning when you
word be your breath. Meaning when you put a breath where the first word should
put a breath where the first word should be,
be, everything else flows. If I start
everything else flows. If I start gushing, what I'm signaling is,
gushing, what I'm signaling is, you know, I don't Most people wait until
you know, I don't Most people wait until they're talking to figure out what they
they're talking to figure out what they want to say.
want to say. >> Yeah. [sighs]
>> Yeah. [sighs] And so they say, "Well, what I mean to
And so they say, "Well, what I mean to say is,"Well, I say all that to say
say is,"Well, I say all that to say because they're still trying to figure
because they're still trying to figure it out." But if you were to ask me a
it out." But if you were to ask me a really hard question and rather than
really hard question and rather than having that knee-jerk reaction, I go,
having that knee-jerk reaction, I go, "That's a good question.
"That's a good question. Let me think." Then you're going to be
Let me think." Then you're going to be you're going to be in it. You're going
you're going to be in it. You're going to know whatever is about to come out
to know whatever is about to come out has actually been thought about, is
has actually been thought about, is actually going to be something you want
actually going to be something you want to listen to. Now you're going to be
to listen to. Now you're going to be more curious. Now you wait with baited
more curious. Now you wait with baited breath of what's gonna happen. So when
breath of what's gonna happen. So when you think of business meetings,
you think of business meetings, the person who goes, "Oh, actually, you
the person who goes, "Oh, actually, you know, I I disagree with that." If you
know, I I disagree with that." If you look at our latest studies and they just
look at our latest studies and they just start
start versus when somebody asks, you know,
versus when somebody asks, you know, Stephen, what do you think? And you go
Stephen, what do you think? And you go and you just hold that silence, it's
and you just hold that silence, it's like a cliffhanger. Everybody wants to
like a cliffhanger. Everybody wants to hear what you said. People who are
hear what you said. People who are confident, they don't have to say
confident, they don't have to say something to show they know something.
something to show they know something. They choose their moment. They choose
They choose their moment. They choose their timing.
their timing. >> It appears they're also the people that
>> It appears they're also the people that are most likely to turn around and say,
are most likely to turn around and say, "I don't have the answer to that."
"I don't have the answer to that." >> Yep. People who are truly confident
>> Yep. People who are truly confident know they don't always have to get it
know they don't always have to get it right. They know that they will get it
right. They know that they will get it wrong. Confident people, Confidence does
wrong. Confident people, Confidence does not mean you have to know all the
not mean you have to know all the answers. Confidence means you know that
answers. Confidence means you know that you don't. When you have the confidence
you don't. When you have the confidence of knowing I don't know everything,
of knowing I don't know everything, all of a sudden you sound a lot more
all of a sudden you sound a lot more real. There's also something about you
real. There's also something about you just being the type of person that's
just being the type of person that's willing to sit in silence but also just
willing to sit in silence but also just take up more space and time that signals
take up more space and time that signals respect. The very fact that you would
respect. The very fact that you would have the audacity to say someone asks me
have the audacity to say someone asks me a question and I go hm let me just think
a question and I go hm let me just think about that for a second.
about that for a second. >> It it means that I'm not you talked
>> It it means that I'm not you talked about rushing earlier. I don't rush. And
about rushing earlier. I don't rush. And there's something about quite aura about
there's something about quite aura about that. There we go.
that. There we go. >> About the fact that you you you're not
>> About the fact that you you you're not the type of per you're the type of
the type of per you're the type of person that can just take seven seconds,
person that can just take seven seconds, >> right?
>> right? >> Because you are it's you're you're kind
>> Because you are it's you're you're kind of stealing 7 seconds from everyone
of stealing 7 seconds from everyone there,
there, >> right?
>> right? >> So that you can think.
>> So that you can think. >> And you would think that the the harder
>> And you would think that the the harder the issue, the more time that is
the issue, the more time that is necessary.
necessary. >> You would think. Yeah.
>> You would think. Yeah. >> And instead everybody's equated it to
>> And instead everybody's equated it to immediate. it it think when let's say
immediate. it it think when let's say we're on a a ship and it we're in the
we're on a a ship and it we're in the middle of a storm. Who's the person that
middle of a storm. Who's the person that they all look to to say, "I'm freaking
they all look to to say, "I'm freaking out. I'm scared." But the captain isn't.
out. I'm scared." But the captain isn't. You know, they he this person knows. He
You know, they he this person knows. He she knows. And we're constantly looking
she knows. And we're constantly looking for that person in times of emotional
for that person in times of emotional stress. We're we're wanting someone to,
stress. We're we're wanting someone to, you know, I I'm too anxious, but I can
you know, I I'm too anxious, but I can go to this person because in times of
go to this person because in times of crisis, they say, "You walk, don't run."
crisis, they say, "You walk, don't run." You know, I I'm When I act like I've
You know, I I'm When I act like I've been there before, and I've seen this,
been there before, and I've seen this, I'm telling everybody else, "Oh, oh, if
I'm telling everybody else, "Oh, oh, if he's not worried, I shouldn't be
he's not worried, I shouldn't be worried. If he's not upset, I don't have
worried. If he's not upset, I don't have to be upset." A lot of doctors, a lot of
to be upset." A lot of doctors, a lot of professionals that deal with conflict
professionals that deal with conflict and crisis management, it's their job to
and crisis management, it's their job to be as calm as could be because if they
be as calm as could be because if they reacted in a way that set you off or sit
reacted in a way that set you off or sit you on edge, well then there's no
you on edge, well then there's no there's no anchor and then it's and then
there's no anchor and then it's and then it's a bad place to be. But yeah, just
it's a bad place to be. But yeah, just having that let me think about that for
having that let me think about that for a second has a different tune of oh wow
a second has a different tune of oh wow this person
this person they know who they are. They I don't
they know who they are. They I don't rush. That's just not what I do.
rush. That's just not what I do. >> It reminds me of every time I've had
>> It reminds me of every time I've had turbulence on a plane and I've looked at
turbulence on a plane and I've looked at the flight attendant to see if this
the flight attendant to see if this thing is going down.
thing is going down. >> That's [laughter] so good. Yes, I've
>> That's [laughter] so good. Yes, I've done that. I I can't tell you how many
done that. I I can't tell you how many times I've done that where I'm looking
times I've done that where I'm looking at the the hostess like just walking
at the the hostess like just walking still passing out snacks and not bother.
still passing out snacks and not bother. I'm like, "Okay, if he's not bothered,
I'm like, "Okay, if he's not bothered, I'm
I'm >> We do that in conversation every day.
>> We do that in conversation every day. We're we're looking for the calm flight
We're we're looking for the calm flight attendants. We're looking for the
attendants. We're looking for the anchors, the captains, the people who in
anchors, the captains, the people who in times of stress and turbulence in our
times of stress and turbulence in our life, we can look to and say, "If
life, we can look to and say, "If they're okay and if they're good, then
they're okay and if they're good, then I'm then I can be good." And when you
I'm then I can be good." And when you can be that person for others,
can be that person for others, >> you're a leader.
>> you're a leader. >> Yeah. Always.
>> Yeah. Always. >> You are the leader.
>> You are the leader. >> Mhm.
>> Mhm. >> This is probably the defining trait of I
>> This is probably the defining trait of I think people that I have employed over
think people that I have employed over the years that I would consider a leader
the years that I would consider a leader or not a leader is how different they
or not a leader is how different they are when [ __ ] has hit the fan.
are when [ __ ] has hit the fan. >> Yes. And if there is seemingly no
>> Yes. And if there is seemingly no difference in the way they're conducting
difference in the way they're conducting themselves, leader,
themselves, leader, >> yep,
>> yep, >> emotional regulator. They bring the
>> emotional regulator. They bring the temperature down.
temperature down. >> And then you have the inverse
>> And then you have the inverse >> where the minute any kind of sign of
>> where the minute any kind of sign of trouble, there's stress, there's
trouble, there's stress, there's >> there's overwhelm and it's contagious.
>> there's overwhelm and it's contagious. And what they need is the calm flight
And what they need is the calm flight attendant to regulate them,
attendant to regulate them, >> right? So I think a and people I think
>> right? So I think a and people I think who want to be leaders in their
who want to be leaders in their professional lives should really think
professional lives should really think about this like how do you show up when
about this like how do you show up when things are hard. I I always tell the
things are hard. I I always tell the story of one of my friends called Oliver
story of one of my friends called Oliver who when I employed him must have been
who when I employed him must have been seven eight years ago. Okay he wasn't my
seven eight years ago. Okay he wasn't my friend when I hired him but the defining
friend when I hired him but the defining trait of Oliver was that
trait of Oliver was that he would deliver me good and bad news
he would deliver me good and bad news uh the same
uh the same >> Yeah. with the same sort of nonchalant
>> Yeah. with the same sort of nonchalant calm
calm demeanor. So he'd walk up to me and say,
demeanor. So he'd walk up to me and say, you know, we've just signed Uber Across
you know, we've just signed Uber Across America. We're going to be there. And
America. We're going to be there. And then the days where everything was on
then the days where everything was on fire, he'd walk up to me, Stephen,
fire, he'd walk up to me, Stephen, Clever Chat. I say, yeah, yeah, cool.
Clever Chat. I say, yeah, yeah, cool. He'd say, just so you know, and then
He'd say, just so you know, and then he'd deliver some of the worst [ __ ] I've
he'd deliver some of the worst [ __ ] I've ever heard in my entire life. But he'd
ever heard in my entire life. But he'd do it in such a calm way that I both I
do it in such a calm way that I both I was calm and I thought he had it under
was calm and I thought he had it under control,
control, >> right? And I remember always thinking, I
>> right? And I remember always thinking, I need to put more people under this guy
need to put more people under this guy >> because he's going to bring us down. And
>> because he's going to bring us down. And so I just think as employers, I I
so I just think as employers, I I wouldn't have known that my boss or my
wouldn't have known that my boss or my employer is thinking this unless someone
employer is thinking this unless someone had said it to me. They're watching how
had said it to me. They're watching how I deal with with things when she hears
I deal with with things when she hears the fan.
the fan. >> They're always watching. And I mean, I
>> They're always watching. And I mean, I mean, you take people that are are
mean, you take people that are are watching you and your team. You have a
watching you and your team. You have a large team. When when you are um upset
large team. When when you are um upset and anxious, everybody feels it. It
and anxious, everybody feels it. It [clears throat] spreads. But if you're
[clears throat] spreads. But if you're the one that's calm, it that spreads
the one that's calm, it that spreads too. And so it's
too. And so it's and and you have to get to the situation
and and you have to get to the situation where if you're upset, then people know
where if you're upset, then people know it's something to be upset about of if
it's something to be upset about of if you know I had um a friend in college.
you know I had um a friend in college. He was upset about everything. I mean,
He was upset about everything. I mean, he just was a hotthead and he got upset
he just was a hotthead and he got upset about the smallest things. How can you
about the smallest things. How can you possibly tell the difference between
possibly tell the difference between what is a small thing and a big thing if
what is a small thing and a big thing if you're always having the same level of
you're always having the same level of reaction? But if you have a calmness and
reaction? But if you have a calmness and let's say then you have an explosion
let's say then you have an explosion because it happens because you're human.
because it happens because you're human. That's when people know this is
That's when people know this is something serious.
something serious. >> Mhm.
>> Mhm. >> Because if you always operate at a 10,
>> Because if you always operate at a 10, nobody's going to appreciate it when
nobody's going to appreciate it when it's really an 11. When you think about
it's really an 11. When you think about like military generals and leaders, they
like military generals and leaders, they also have this other side to them, which
also have this other side to them, which is they do also protect the standard.
is they do also protect the standard. And I think this there's a there's a
And I think this there's a there's a balance that's almost needed here
balance that's almost needed here between being nonchalant in those
between being nonchalant in those moments where something bad's happened,
moments where something bad's happened, we can't control it now, and then how
we can't control it now, and then how you defend the standard. So like you
you defend the standard. So like you watch the military barracks or whatever
watch the military barracks or whatever when they're going through training,
when they're going through training, these leaders are like screaming at them
these leaders are like screaming at them about the standards, about the buttons,
about the standards, about the buttons, about iron your shirt, make your boots
about iron your shirt, make your boots clean.
clean. And so it appears on one end that they
And so it appears on one end that they are petty about something and they are
are petty about something and they are em you know they are these leaders are
em you know they are these leaders are emotional. You look at football
emotional. You look at football managers.
managers. >> Yeah.
>> Yeah. >> Or sporting managers.
>> Or sporting managers. >> Yeah.
>> Yeah. >> They they almost exist in a bit of a
>> They they almost exist in a bit of a dichotomy which is like knowing when to
dichotomy which is like knowing when to be controlled and then knowing when to
be controlled and then knowing when to be emotionally seemingly emotionally
be emotionally seemingly emotionally irrational about something.
irrational about something. >> Yeah. And I think those
>> Yeah. And I think those those um specific situations are also
those um specific situations are also part of a system. You know, this is a
part of a system. You know, this is a system that they've seen produce the
system that they've seen produce the outcome that they want. So they know
outcome that they want. So they know that there's a utility to having that
that there's a utility to having that big reaction or there's a purpose behind
big reaction or there's a purpose behind it. What I find is the negative is when
it. What I find is the negative is when you have people who there's not a
you have people who there's not a utility. They just they don't have the
utility. They just they don't have the words. the leaders who let's say curse a
words. the leaders who let's say curse a lot because they don't really have the
lot because they don't really have the vocabulary, you know, they they would
vocabulary, you know, they they would rather have big emotional reactions.
rather have big emotional reactions. But the but when you have that type of
But the but when you have that type of language that is not going to show that
language that is not going to show that you're in control of your emotions,
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>> So that was number three. >> Yeah.
>> Yeah. >> Stop overexplaining yourself. Yeah,
>> Stop overexplaining yourself. Yeah, >> the second one was reducing um
>> the second one was reducing um distractions and the first was
distractions and the first was authenticity. Number four, [snorts]
authenticity. Number four, [snorts] >> know how to deal
>> know how to deal with their sadness.
A lot of people are hurting that you don't know are hurting. And a lot of
don't know are hurting. And a lot of people are grieving that you don't know
people are grieving that you don't know are grieving. Whether it's the holidays,
are grieving. Whether it's the holidays, whether it's a
whether it's a an important date or event that you
an important date or event that you don't know about in their life and
don't know about in their life and they're hurting and grieving. If you
they're hurting and grieving. If you really want to be a top level
really want to be a top level communicator, you need to know not to
communicator, you need to know not to say not only when the times are good,
say not only when the times are good, but also when the times are are bad.
but also when the times are are bad. >> And how does how does one be there for
>> And how does how does one be there for someone when they're going through their
someone when they're going through their moments of sadness? Is there any
moments of sadness? Is there any principles that one should think about?
principles that one should think about? >> Yeah. But when somebody is grieving,
>> Yeah. But when somebody is grieving, what you do not do
what you do not do is begin with let me know if
is begin with let me know if if you if if what you are about to say
if you if if what you are about to say begins with let me know if it's the
begins with let me know if it's the wrong thing to say. Let me know if you
wrong thing to say. Let me know if you need anything. Let me know if I can do
need anything. Let me know if I can do anything for you. Hey, just just let me
anything for you. Hey, just just let me know. Anything you need, let me know.
know. Anything you need, let me know. All you're doing is giving them a chore.
All you're doing is giving them a chore. This person's already grieving at this
This person's already grieving at this moment. They
moment. They It's They're going through something you
It's They're going through something you don't even know how to feel and you're
don't even know how to feel and you're now giving them a chore of they're
now giving them a chore of they're supposed to be on their own to have the
supposed to be on their own to have the ability to pull out their phone, text
ability to pull out their phone, text their need to you.
their need to you. That's never going to happen. Have Have
That's never going to happen. Have Have you ever had somebody who say, "Let me
you ever had somebody who say, "Let me know if you need anything." actually let
know if you need anything." actually let you know that they needed something?
you know that they needed something? >> Never.
>> Never. >> Never. Because you've now now you've
>> Never. Because you've now now you've made it more comfortable on you and now
made it more comfortable on you and now more of an obligation on them. And we
more of an obligation on them. And we go, "Well, you know what? I said all I
go, "Well, you know what? I said all I need to say. I let me know if you need
need to say. I let me know if you need anything. Let me know how I can help."
anything. Let me know how I can help." Right? When all you've done is just
Right? When all you've done is just given them an obligation. You've you've
given them an obligation. You've you've burdened it even more. Of course, they
burdened it even more. Of course, they don't want to burden you. They don't
don't want to burden you. They don't want they don't even want to they don't
want they don't even want to they don't even want to live in some of these
even want to live in some of these moments. They they don't want to exist.
moments. They they don't want to exist. and they don't know how to do it. And
and they don't know how to do it. And saying, "Let me know if isn't going to
saying, "Let me know if isn't going to help them." Instead, here's what you do
help them." Instead, here's what you do when somebody's grieving. You do the
when somebody's grieving. You do the thing. Whatever you thought about doing,
thing. Whatever you thought about doing, go do it. If you wanted to bring them
go do it. If you wanted to bring them dinner or said, "Let me know if you need
dinner or said, "Let me know if you need any food," just go get them food. Go do
any food," just go get them food. Go do the task. Go run the errand. Go show up
the task. Go run the errand. Go show up and do their laundry. Go mow their yard
and do their laundry. Go mow their yard for them. Go do the thing. If I really
for them. Go do the thing. If I really want you to be there for me and you
want you to be there for me and you really want to be there for the other
really want to be there for the other person, you don't have to ask. You just
person, you don't have to ask. You just go do. And second of all, I find a lot
go do. And second of all, I find a lot of time people who are with somebody
of time people who are with somebody who's grieving, they don't know what to
who's grieving, they don't know what to say. They want to say something like I I
say. They want to say something like I I want to say something, but I don't I
want to say something, but I don't I don't really know what to say. I just I
don't really know what to say. I just I feel uncomfortable. What I say is not
feel uncomfortable. What I say is not going to be enough. And so they just
going to be enough. And so they just stare at their phone and they kind of
stare at their phone and they kind of text out a sentence and they delete it
text out a sentence and they delete it because they don't really know what to
because they don't really know what to say. The best thing to say is just to
say. The best thing to say is just to validate how you would assume it's going
validate how you would assume it's going to be feeling for them. Nobody deserves
to be feeling for them. Nobody deserves what hap that this is totally unfair. I
what hap that this is totally unfair. I can't believe that this happened. Nobody
can't believe that this happened. Nobody deserves this. Be be able to express and
deserves this. Be be able to express and confirm that what they're feeling is
confirm that what they're feeling is exactly what they should be feeling.
exactly what they should be feeling. Don't go in with the, well, at least
Don't go in with the, well, at least they're in a better place. Hey, you know
they're in a better place. Hey, you know what? Everything happens for a reason.
what? Everything happens for a reason. That's not the right time to say that if
That's not the right time to say that if ever to to be able to try and make them
ever to to be able to try and make them feel better of oh you know I just at
feel better of oh you know I just at least they're you know not is there
least they're you know not is there anything I can do any of that kind of
anything I can do any of that kind of stuff it's like yeah I know you can do
stuff it's like yeah I know you can do you can bring that person back that's
you can bring that person back that's what you can do that's not going to
what you can do that's not going to happen you can't do that and so you
happen you can't do that and so you catch yourself in a corner where you
catch yourself in a corner where you genuinely have an interest like how many
genuinely have an interest like how many times people say you're in our thoughts
times people say you're in our thoughts you're my thoughts and prayers thoughts
you're my thoughts and prayers thoughts and prayers you know praying for you and
and prayers you know praying for you and they haven't once sent up a prayer,
they haven't once sent up a prayer, right? They're just saying it. If you
right? They're just saying it. If you really mean it, text out the prayer to
really mean it, text out the prayer to them.
them. Text the prayer. Dear God, I'm I just
Text the prayer. Dear God, I'm I just ask that you be with Stephen right now.
ask that you be with Stephen right now. And what? Send the prayer to them. Why
And what? Send the prayer to them. Why Why not encourage them in that versus
Why not encourage them in that versus just saying, hey, just keeping you in my
just saying, hey, just keeping you in my thoughts. If you are, then text them
thoughts. If you are, then text them thinking about you. No need to respond.
thinking about you. No need to respond. You think just putting it in a Facebook
You think just putting it in a Facebook comment is going to do enough? Just here
comment is going to do enough? Just here in our prayers. That's that's not
in our prayers. That's that's not connection and that's not authentic.
connection and that's not authentic. That that's that's the easy shortcut.
That that's that's the easy shortcut. >> I think I've spent my whole life
>> I think I've spent my whole life struggling with those moments where some
struggling with those moments where some something bad has happened to someone or
something bad has happened to someone or they've been through something and
they've been through something and >> yeah,
>> yeah, >> you you found out over text message and
>> you you found out over text message and you don't know what to say.
you don't know what to say. >> You don't know what to say. You're like,
>> You don't know what to say. You're like, "I'm so sorry." Um, and the amount of
"I'm so sorry." Um, and the amount of times I've written something and then
times I've written something and then deleted it and written something and
deleted it and written something and deleted it. And I [clears throat]
deleted it. And I [clears throat] actually got some feedback from Samir,
actually got some feedback from Samir, um, who is a a very well-known YouTuber
um, who is a a very well-known YouTuber creator, and he's he's part of a YouTube
creator, and he's he's part of a YouTube channel called Colin and Samir. Their
channel called Colin and Samir. Their their houses burnt down in the Palisades
their houses burnt down in the Palisades fire.
fire. And I'd say what, four, five, six months
And I'd say what, four, five, six months later, he came up to me in New York and
later, he came up to me in New York and said, um,
said, um, "Thank you for the message you sent me
"Thank you for the message you sent me because it was specific."
because it was specific." And I know there's a cl we have a clip
And I know there's a cl we have a clip of it cuz we were recording at the time.
of it cuz we were recording at the time. We were I just come off stage and he was
We were I just come off stage and he was at his at his event in New York and he'd
at his at his event in New York and he'd come up to me and said it. And it always
come up to me and said it. And it always stayed with me that he remembered 6
stayed with me that he remembered 6 months later. I didn't even really
months later. I didn't even really remember the message I sent. He
remember the message I sent. He remembered 6 months later that when his
remembered 6 months later that when his house had
house had >> burnt down, they both just had I think
>> burnt down, they both just had I think they both had like less than
they both had like less than one-year-old kids
one-year-old kids >> and both of the houses had burnt down. I
>> and both of the houses had burnt down. I sent him something specific I could help
sent him something specific I could help him with.
him with. >> I can't I can't remember the details of
>> I can't I can't remember the details of what I said, but he came up and said,
what I said, but he came up and said, "Thank you for sending me something.
"Thank you for sending me something. Lots of people sent me messages, but I
Lots of people sent me messages, but I remember you sent me something
remember you sent me something specific." That hits the theme of when
specific." That hits the theme of when you stop trying to be
you stop trying to be what's most convenient to you
what's most convenient to you and start doing what might be just a
and start doing what might be just a slightly little bit more uncomfortable,
slightly little bit more uncomfortable, a little bit more work. The choice to do
a little bit more work. The choice to do something different and be more specific
something different and be more specific in the thought to to not just say so
in the thought to to not just say so sorry to hear,
sorry to hear, >> right? That's that's that's injustice to
>> right? That's that's that's injustice to be I mean that's that doesn't even touch
be I mean that's that doesn't even touch it. But if you were to say you were to
it. But if you were to say you were to say
say >> what is happening is totally unfair like
>> what is happening is totally unfair like agree with it be specific with it. Same
agree with it be specific with it. Same thing with it's the same with
thing with it's the same with compliments. The more specific it is the
compliments. The more specific it is the more genuine it is. The person that you
more genuine it is. The person that you remember the longest is the person who's
remember the longest is the person who's able to be right there with you and say
able to be right there with you and say exactly what you're feeling in that
exactly what you're feeling in that moment
moment >> and make a genuine offer to to support a
>> and make a genuine offer to to support a real Yes. And also not as you said at
real Yes. And also not as you said at the start not an offer that they have to
the start not an offer that they have to accept
accept >> because no one accepts them.
>> because no one accepts them. >> Yeah. That or make it a condition that
>> Yeah. That or make it a condition that they have to reach out to you in order
they have to reach out to you in order to you consider giving it
to you consider giving it >> instead of just doing it or or even when
>> instead of just doing it or or even when you feel that like I don't really know
you feel that like I don't really know what to to say but I'm you know what if
what to to say but I'm you know what if I were them this is what I'd want and go
I were them this is what I'd want and go do the thing. Otherwise, don't say it if
do the thing. Otherwise, don't say it if you don't mean it. I mean, that's just
you don't mean it. I mean, that's just the to me that's a sign of
the to me that's a sign of you're you're not their person because
you're you're not their person because there's so many people that are just
there's so many people that are just fair weather friends that they they want
fair weather friends that they they want to be there and and be part of the
to be there and and be part of the success, but when your face is on the
success, but when your face is on the floor and you're at rock bottom, the
floor and you're at rock bottom, the people you'll remember are the people
people you'll remember are the people that show up.
that show up. >> Amen. I've heard that so many times from
>> Amen. I've heard that so many times from my guests on this podcast where they
my guests on this podcast where they talk about their hardest moment
talk about their hardest moment >> and it's always who who showed up in
>> and it's always who who showed up in that moment that
that moment that >> um number five. If you want to be a
>> um number five. If you want to be a better communicator, you have to know
better communicator, you have to know how to handle the insults, the
how to handle the insults, the backbiting, the dismissive, the
backbiting, the dismissive, the belittling, the patronizing, the words
belittling, the patronizing, the words that people use to try and inflict pain.
that people use to try and inflict pain. What do I do?
What do I do? If you want to handle somebody who's
If you want to handle somebody who's trying to hurt you with their words, the
trying to hurt you with their words, the first thing you have to do is have a
first thing you have to do is have a bunch of silence or it's five to seven
bunch of silence or it's five to seven seconds of
seconds of nothing. Make it make it enough to where
nothing. Make it make it enough to where it's uncomfortable where they they know
it's uncomfortable where they they know this is not going to be fun. Number two
this is not going to be fun. Number two is you ask them to repeat it. I need you
is you ask them to repeat it. I need you to say that again. I need you I I need
to say that again. I need you I I need you to repeat that. Most of the time
you to repeat that. Most of the time people can't do it. And number three, if
people can't do it. And number three, if I need to, I ask them, "Did you mean did
I need to, I ask them, "Did you mean did you mean for that to sound
you mean for that to sound rude? Did you mean for that to sound
rude? Did you mean for that to sound short? Did you mean for that to sound
short? Did you mean for that to sound upsetting?" And what it does is allow
upsetting?" And what it does is allow you to be able to
you to be able to operate in a way that
operate in a way that doesn't allow their words to hurt you or
doesn't allow their words to hurt you or to touch you or that cut you.
to touch you or that cut you. Whenever somebody is saying something
Whenever somebody is saying something that's to belittle you or insult you,
that's to belittle you or insult you, they're they're putting a big spotlight
they're they're putting a big spotlight on themselves and they're hoping to
on themselves and they're hoping to throw it on to you to get your reaction.
throw it on to you to get your reaction. So, they're going to I'm going to say
So, they're going to I'm going to say something hurtful to you and then it's
something hurtful to you and then it's like they're turning the spotlight right
like they're turning the spotlight right to you. And then when you ask a
to you. And then when you ask a question, when you have just silence, it
question, when you have just silence, it allows their words to kind of echo back
allows their words to kind of echo back to them. And a lot of people will before
to them. And a lot of people will before they even have to say anything, they'll
they even have to say anything, they'll go, I I shouldn't have said that. When
go, I I shouldn't have said that. When the more silence you have, the more
the more silence you have, the more awkward it becomes and they kind of have
awkward it becomes and they kind of have to take it back. They realize you didn't
to take it back. They realize you didn't take the bait. But when you put the
take the bait. But when you put the spotlight and you ask the question, did
spotlight and you ask the question, did you do you mean for that to
you do you mean for that to embarrass me? Did you mean for that to
embarrass me? Did you mean for that to sound hurtful?
sound hurtful? They can't bear the thought of saying
They can't bear the thought of saying yes to that. So, they have to tweak it.
yes to that. So, they have to tweak it. They have to fix it. They have to go,
They have to fix it. They have to go, "Oh, no, no, no. I mean, what I mean,
"Oh, no, no, no. I mean, what I mean, what I meant to say was and they they go
what I meant to say was and they they go a different way." Now, if they were to
a different way." Now, if they were to double down and say, "Yes, that's
double down and say, "Yes, that's exactly what I meant." You get to say,
exactly what I meant." You get to say, "Thank you for letting me know."
"Thank you for letting me know." >> I was thinking about like the
>> I was thinking about like the neuroscience of what's going on there.
neuroscience of what's going on there. >> Yeah.
>> Yeah. >> When you get someone to admit that
>> When you get someone to admit that they're hurtful, um I remember
they're hurtful, um I remember interviewing some neuroscientists who
interviewing some neuroscientists who talked about this idea of cognitive
talked about this idea of cognitive dissonance, which is where like we all
dissonance, which is where like we all have a perception of who we are.
have a perception of who we are. >> Mh. And I guess by what you're doing
>> Mh. And I guess by what you're doing there, you're
there, you're creating the cognitive dissonance, which
creating the cognitive dissonance, which is the cognitive mental discomfort by
is the cognitive mental discomfort by making me kind of look in the mirror at
making me kind of look in the mirror at who I
who I who I just acted like. If I I don't
who I just acted like. If I I don't think I'm a hurtful person.
think I'm a hurtful person. >> If I say something super hurtful and
>> If I say something super hurtful and then you ask me if I meant to be
then you ask me if I meant to be hurtful, you're immediately like
hurtful, you're immediately like speaking to my identity.
speaking to my identity. >> Yes.
>> Yes. >> And I don't want I'm not a hurtful
>> And I don't want I'm not a hurtful person,
person, >> right? And that's causing the the
>> right? And that's causing the the dissonance which is the sort of the
dissonance which is the sort of the disparity between who I think I am and
disparity between who I think I am and how I just behaved.
how I just behaved. >> Yes.
>> Yes. >> And so I have to alleviate one of them.
>> And so I have to alleviate one of them. I have to make sense.
I have to make sense. >> Nobody believes they're on the side of
>> Nobody believes they're on the side of bad. They always think they're in the
bad. They always think they're in the side of good.
side of good. >> So you by you saying that to me, I
>> So you by you saying that to me, I immediately have to confirm
immediately have to confirm >> right
>> right >> that I am a person who is intent on
>> that I am a person who is intent on hurting others.
hurting others. >> Yes.
>> Yes. >> That's not at all what I want to do. I
>> That's not at all what I want to do. I just wanted to gaslight you a little
just wanted to gaslight you a little bit. [laughter]
bit. [laughter] >> I just want to cause you pain. Yeah. And
>> I just want to cause you pain. Yeah. And so at that moment, it's what they're
so at that moment, it's what they're thinking and feeling is I want you to
thinking and feeling is I want you to hurt like I'm hurting. I want you I want
hurt like I'm hurting. I want you I want to feel the control because I don't have
to feel the control because I don't have a sense of control now and I'm feeling a
a sense of control now and I'm feeling a certain way. I'm upset. So if I can make
certain way. I'm upset. So if I can make you upset, well then I can have now I
you upset, well then I can have now I can feel better and more justified about
can feel better and more justified about how I'm feeling. And so some people
how I'm feeling. And so some people will, especially the manipulative ones,
will, especially the manipulative ones, they'll be upset, say something to make
they'll be upset, say something to make you upset, and then turn around and go,
you upset, and then turn around and go, I don't know why you're so upset.
I don't know why you're so upset. >> I'm I'm fine. I'm just fine. I don't
>> I'm I'm fine. I'm just fine. I don't know why you're you're so upset. And
know why you're you're so upset. And because they've just left you in it now.
because they've just left you in it now. Now they all they've done is just pass
Now they all they've done is just pass it on to you. Like I don't like this
it on to you. Like I don't like this feeling, so now I'm going to give it to
feeling, so now I'm going to give it to you and I'm I'm totally good. What are
you and I'm I'm totally good. What are you talking about?
you talking about? >> I had a situation in a gym a long time
>> I had a situation in a gym a long time ago where I was on a machine and a guy
ago where I was on a machine and a guy he said that these all these machines
he said that these all these machines were his so he wanted to use them all.
were his so he wanted to use them all. And he just came up to me. This was a
And he just came up to me. This was a long long time ago. And he was so like
long long time ago. And he was so like out of pocket like he was you talked
out of pocket like he was you talked about being in the pocket.
about being in the pocket. >> Mhm. super emotional within like 15
>> Mhm. super emotional within like 15 seconds this sort of slightly older
seconds this sort of slightly older gentleman and basically like asked me if
gentleman and basically like asked me if I wanted to have a fight and it was so
I wanted to have a fight and it was so bizarre to me that I felt like an
bizarre to me that I felt like an observer and I genuinely
observer and I genuinely >> Anybody else seen this?
>> Anybody else seen this? >> No, it was him in the gym and I was so I
>> No, it was him in the gym and I was so I was I felt like David Atenburgh like I
was I felt like David Atenburgh like I was just like
was just like >> and I did it and I inadvertently did
>> and I did it and I inadvertently did what you said which is my tone didn't
what you said which is my tone didn't change at all. I spoke to him like this.
change at all. I spoke to him like this. I'm like
I'm like >> did you just ask me for a fight in the
>> did you just ask me for a fight in the gym? [laughter] I was like, and then the
gym? [laughter] I was like, and then the more cuz I asked genuinely like like
more cuz I asked genuinely like like genuine curious questions and it
genuine curious questions and it immediately disarmed him.
immediately disarmed him. >> Yes.
>> Yes. >> But don't do that to strangers in the
>> But don't do that to strangers in the gym. Oh my god, my [laughter] tone was
gym. Oh my god, my [laughter] tone was so low.
so low. >> Yeah, but that's what it is. It's are
>> Yeah, but that's what it is. It's are you okay?
you okay? >> You know, it's you're having to like
>> You know, it's you're having to like have to check on them for a second
have to check on them for a second because most of the time when you're
because most of the time when you're hearing them yell and and say ugly
hearing them yell and and say ugly things, what they're truly signaling is
things, what they're truly signaling is I'm not okay.
I'm not okay. >> It's there's always something else
>> It's there's always something else that's going on. I've done it before
that's going on. I've done it before where somebody said something hurtful
where somebody said something hurtful and I said, "How did you expect me to
and I said, "How did you expect me to respond to that?" Or, "How were you
respond to that?" Or, "How were you wanting me to respond to that?" Or, "How
wanting me to respond to that?" Or, "How did you think I was going to respond?"
did you think I was going to respond?" And it's I've never had it where they
And it's I've never had it where they go, "Well, I expected you to say an
go, "Well, I expected you to say an insult." Like they it's always them
insult." Like they it's always them backpedaling and then trying to explain
backpedaling and then trying to explain how they're feeling in that moment
how they're feeling in that moment because they they don't know they don't
because they they don't know they don't know how to to do it. But if I can stop,
know how to to do it. But if I can stop, put aside like you did your frustration
put aside like you did your frustration and say, "Are you asking me for a fight
and say, "Are you asking me for a fight right now?" [laughter] You know, are is
right now?" [laughter] You know, are is that what you're really asking for? That
that what you're really asking for? That kind of are you okay kind of thing?
kind of are you okay kind of thing? That'll all of a sudden your frustration
That'll all of a sudden your frustration now goes away.
now goes away. >> You've changed the frame completely.
>> You've changed the frame completely. >> Absolutely.
>> Absolutely. >> Cuz the frame they wanted was
>> Cuz the frame they wanted was aggression. Maybe that's the the
aggression. Maybe that's the the language or the frame that they know as
language or the frame that they know as the way to solve problems. But yours was
the way to solve problems. But yours was like in that scenario changed to
like in that scenario changed to curiosity, which was like, "What? How
curiosity, which was like, "What? How did that
did that >> Yeah. Anytime you actually have a
>> Yeah. Anytime you actually have a mindset of instead of having something
mindset of instead of having something well don't have something to prove have
well don't have something to prove have something to learn. And so in that
something to learn. And so in that moment you could have easily tried to
moment you could have easily tried to prove something of who who do you think
prove something of who who do you think you're talking to? Do you know what I
you're talking to? Do you know what I you could have played that card instead
you could have played that card instead you actually got
you actually got >> curious of what's going on here? Are you
>> curious of what's going on here? Are you asking me for questions are powerful
asking me for questions are powerful that way. questions are disarming for
that way. questions are disarming for somebody who's trying to be aggressive
somebody who's trying to be aggressive with you because they're not looking for
with you because they're not looking for that type of mirror. They don't want a
that type of mirror. They don't want a mirror. They don't want to see the ugly
mirror. They don't want to see the ugly that they're putting out there. But
that they're putting out there. But anytime somebody has that very
anytime somebody has that very aggressive, I have so many people who
aggressive, I have so many people who go, if somebody said this to me and was
go, if somebody said this to me and was so ugly and said this horrible thing
so ugly and said this horrible thing and they're looking for a quick
and they're looking for a quick comeback, which I can give it to them,
comeback, which I can give it to them, but if they really care about the
but if they really care about the relationship, I say, "Okay, I assume
relationship, I say, "Okay, I assume they said it at normal volume. What's
they said it at normal volume. What's their need? Like, what are they what are
their need? Like, what are they what are they really feeling?"
they really feeling?" >> Because if you just respond to the
>> Because if you just respond to the reaction,
reaction, you're you're not going to hear the end
you're you're not going to hear the end of it.
of it. >> And we all have triggers.
>> And we all have triggers. >> Same. I I I definitely have mine. I
>> Same. I I I definitely have mine. I can't I can't I can't say anything. I'll
can't I can't I can't say anything. I'll tell you one of the biggest things that
tell you one of the biggest things that has helped me too in
has helped me too in um any any if anybody's wanting to
um any any if anybody's wanting to improve their personal relationships
improve their personal relationships with a partner or anything. It's one is
with a partner or anything. It's one is understanding validate first.
understanding validate first. Frustration comes le next. If I respond
Frustration comes le next. If I respond first with frustration, I'm going to
first with frustration, I'm going to lose every time. So it's validating.
lose every time. So it's validating. It's saying of course you'd feel this
It's saying of course you'd feel this way. It totally makes sense. I can see
way. It totally makes sense. I can see how you feel that way. Acknowledging
how you feel that way. Acknowledging that it's okay for them to feel that
that it's okay for them to feel that way. Otherwise,
way. Otherwise, the partner is going to feel like I'm
the partner is going to feel like I'm being too much. And if I'm being too
being too much. And if I'm being too much, then you're going to leave, right?
much, then you're going to leave, right? It's the it's the same sense of
It's the it's the same sense of abandonment. So, if I can hit that,
abandonment. So, if I can hit that, you're not being too much. I have the
you're not being too much. I have the capacity and the I can be elastic in
capacity and the I can be elastic in this relationship because I'm not going
this relationship because I'm not going to be my best self all the time, too.
to be my best self all the time, too. But if I can give you a safe space for
But if I can give you a safe space for you to be messy and me to be messy, then
you to be messy and me to be messy, then you're actually going to have that
you're actually going to have that relationship. Number two, it's
relationship. Number two, it's understanding that
understanding that resets is your
resets is your uno wild card. Asking for a reset for if
uno wild card. Asking for a reset for if I were to say, you know what, I didn't
I were to say, you know what, I didn't say that right.
say that right. You know what? Can I can I try that
You know what? Can I can I try that again? I didn't say that the best way,
again? I didn't say that the best way, did I? You know, I I could have done
did I? You know, I I could have done that better. As soon as I start and ask
that better. As soon as I start and ask for a reset, I've never had anybody told
for a reset, I've never had anybody told me no. Nobody goes, "No, no, you have to
me no. Nobody goes, "No, no, you have to stick with it right now. Go ahead. Keep
stick with it right now. Go ahead. Keep failing." Like we in a video game, we
failing." Like we in a video game, we wouldn't Why would you keep playing if
wouldn't Why would you keep playing if you knew you're ultimately going to
you knew you're ultimately going to lose? It's you restart. You try again.
lose? It's you restart. You try again. And so giving yourself the grace and the
And so giving yourself the grace and the other person the grace to have the
other person the grace to have the ability to start over again is a
ability to start over again is a necessary part of communicating in
necessary part of communicating in relationships. And three is slice it
relationships. And three is slice it thinner. A lot of the times if we're
thinner. A lot of the times if we're having a big conversation,
having a big conversation, we bring up somebody might bring up the
we bring up somebody might bring up the past that past thing and we just kind of
past that past thing and we just kind of add it on and clummit on when we start
add it on and clummit on when we start to kind of feel hopeless about it. But
to kind of feel hopeless about it. But if I can slice each issue by itself and
if I can slice each issue by itself and say, I do want to talk about this. I
say, I do want to talk about this. I want to address what's in front of us
want to address what's in front of us first, that makes everything go a whole
first, that makes everything go a whole lot better. But if I can slice each part
lot better. But if I can slice each part and see the need and validate that, I've
and see the need and validate that, I've always seen that go better.
always seen that go better. >> And on that first point about um how you
>> And on that first point about um how you engage with your your partner during
engage with your your partner during conflict, one of the most useful things
conflict, one of the most useful things I heard recently was a clip I actually
I heard recently was a clip I actually saw of Bnee Brown talking about when she
saw of Bnee Brown talking about when she comes home after like a long day.
comes home after like a long day. >> Yeah.
>> Yeah. >> She will tell her partner how much she
>> She will tell her partner how much she has in the tank.
has in the tank. >> It's so good. And so she'll turn to her
>> It's so good. And so she'll turn to her partner and say, "Listen, I've got 10%.
partner and say, "Listen, I've got 10%. >> I can't do this today."
>> I can't do this today." >> Right?
>> Right? >> And I remember getting the clip and
>> And I remember getting the clip and sending it to my partner because it's
sending it to my partner because it's those that's some of the vocabulary that
those that's some of the vocabulary that probably would have really helped a lot
probably would have really helped a lot of my relationships, which is just first
of my relationships, which is just first expressing where I'm operating from.
expressing where I'm operating from. >> So good.
>> So good. >> And I don't think anybody is going to be
>> And I don't think anybody is going to be on the receiving end of honestly, I've
on the receiving end of honestly, I've got like 10% in the tank today and go,
got like 10% in the tank today and go, "Nope, I want to do this now."
"Nope, I want to do this now." [laughter] Like
[laughter] Like >> exactly. Well, using percentages in
>> exactly. Well, using percentages in conversation is incredibly helpful. Both
conversation is incredibly helpful. Both in relationships, like Bnee mentioned,
in relationships, like Bnee mentioned, of saying, you know what, I got 10%, you
of saying, you know what, I got 10%, you got 40%, let's put it together, and
got 40%, let's put it together, and we're going to make it work, but I at
we're going to make it work, but I at least know where you're coming from.
least know where you're coming from. Same thing at work, right? I've seen
Same thing at work, right? I've seen what I encourage is when people are in a
what I encourage is when people are in a meeting and they can put out an idea,
meeting and they can put out an idea, right? Rather than going, "What if?"
right? Rather than going, "What if?" Because what happens is everybody just
Because what happens is everybody just starts to kill it, you know? They start
starts to kill it, you know? They start pointing arrows at it because it's
pointing arrows at it because it's because it wasn't their idea. So, we
because it wasn't their idea. So, we need to tank it down. But if they come
need to tank it down. But if they come at it and say, "Look, I got 30% of an
at it and say, "Look, I got 30% of an idea," then what happens magically is
idea," then what happens magically is that everybody else wants to join in.
that everybody else wants to join in. So, if I were to say, "Look, I Steve, I
So, if I were to say, "Look, I Steve, I got 20% of an idea. I need your help
got 20% of an idea. I need your help with the other 80." All of a sudden, you
with the other 80." All of a sudden, you take it as a, "Oh, me? I can I can do
take it as a, "Oh, me? I can I can do that." And then everybody else starts to
that." And then everybody else starts to build it up rather than trying to tear
build it up rather than trying to tear it down. Or even if in conversation, if
it down. Or even if in conversation, if I say, "Look,
I say, "Look, I know I'm not going to have the right
I know I'm not going to have the right words. I'm going to have about 60% of
words. I'm going to have about 60% of it. Like that. At least is me confirming
it. Like that. At least is me confirming that I know what I'm saying is not going
that I know what I'm saying is not going to always be the right thing to say.
to always be the right thing to say. >> I wish I did that more. This is um I
>> I wish I did that more. This is um I believe this is the clip I'm talking
believe this is the clip I'm talking about. It was Tim Ferris.
about. It was Tim Ferris. >> Everyone says marriage should be 50/50.
>> Everyone says marriage should be 50/50. It's the biggest crack of [ __ ] I've
It's the biggest crack of [ __ ] I've ever heard. It's never 50/50.
ever heard. It's never 50/50. >> Yeah.
>> Yeah. >> Ever. And so what we do is we quantify
>> Ever. And so what we do is we quantify where we are. So if Steve comes home and
where we are. So if Steve comes home and he'll be like, I got 20. Just in terms
he'll be like, I got 20. Just in terms of energy,
of energy, >> just energy, investment, kindness,
>> just energy, investment, kindness, patience, I'm at a 20 and I'll be like,
patience, I'm at a 20 and I'll be like, I'll cover you. I got you, brother.
I'll cover you. I got you, brother. Like, I'll pull the 80. Sometimes we
Like, I'll pull the 80. Sometimes we come home, which we have done a lot. My
come home, which we have done a lot. My mom has been sick. And I'll say, I've
mom has been sick. And I'll say, I've got 10. And Steo, like two days ago
got 10. And Steo, like two days ago said, I'm riding a solid 25. So, we know
said, I'm riding a solid 25. So, we know that we have to sit down at the table
that we have to sit down at the table anytime we have less than 100 combined
anytime we have less than 100 combined and figure out a plan of kindness toward
and figure out a plan of kindness toward each other.
each other. >> Oh, I love that. Yeah, because the thing
>> Oh, I love that. Yeah, because the thing is marriage is not something that's
is marriage is not something that's 50/50. A partnership works when you can
50/50. A partnership works when you can carry their 20 or they can carry your
carry their 20 or they can carry your 20. And that when you both just have 20,
20. And that when you both just have 20, you have a plan where you don't hurt
you have a plan where you don't hurt each other.
each other. >> So good.
>> So good. >> That's the mistake I've made multiple
>> That's the mistake I've made multiple times.
times. >> Oh. I try and solve big problems with
>> Oh. I try and solve big problems with 10.
10. >> That's the mistake we make every day.
>> That's the mistake we make every day. >> Yeah. I mean, for me and with Sierra and
>> Yeah. I mean, for me and with Sierra and I, it's usually if we're in a part of an
I, it's usually if we're in a part of an argument, typically our arguments end
argument, typically our arguments end pretty quickly, but the ones that go
pretty quickly, but the ones that go long,
long, it's sometimes, you know, I just don't
it's sometimes, you know, I just don't feel like it. You know, I I could give
feel like it. You know, I I could give an apology, you could give an apology,
an apology, you could give an apology, and some I just don't feel I don't feel
and some I just don't feel I don't feel like being sorry right now. I will
like being sorry right now. I will later, but I in the moment, I'm just
later, but I in the moment, I'm just >> I I I I just got this stuff in me and
>> I I I I just got this stuff in me and I'm not ready yet. And so what happens
I'm not ready yet. And so what happens for me and what's been so helpful is
for me and what's been so helpful is when I'm aggravated at that edge and I
when I'm aggravated at that edge and I don't want to give a thing is to say
don't want to give a thing is to say my battery's in the red like we say in
my battery's in the red like we say in the red because of
the red because of >> you know iPhone it's like I'm once I
>> you know iPhone it's like I'm once I know I'm in that place we know to time
know I'm in that place we know to time out because it's or else you'd be two
out because it's or else you'd be two hours in and you're still now you've
hours in and you're still now you've just said way worse things you know that
just said way worse things you know that you're going to apologize for and so
you're going to apologize for and so often when the quicker you can get to a
often when the quicker you can get to a timeout like if you want to know how
timeout like if you want to know how well a a relationship communicates. Look
well a a relationship communicates. Look how often they take timeouts because
how often they take timeouts because timeouts are I mean they're
timeouts are I mean they're the the amount of value you get in just
the the amount of value you get in just a pause and then even five minutes
a pause and then even five minutes coming back to it. you have a different
coming back to it. you have a different like okay here we go like a fresh fresh
like okay here we go like a fresh fresh start like why would you leave somebody
start like why would you leave somebody on the field for three hours and never
on the field for three hours and never give them a rest and you think I can't I
give them a rest and you think I can't I we do it physically but I'm not going to
we do it physically but I'm not going to do it mentally like if you if you want
do it mentally like if you if you want to know
to know the key to the relationship
the key to the relationship the metric that is the most valuable key
the metric that is the most valuable key to a relationship is that the measure
to a relationship is that the measure The quality of the conversation
The quality of the conversation is equal to the quality of the
is equal to the quality of the relationship. Said differently, the
relationship. Said differently, the quality of the relationship is equal to
quality of the relationship is equal to the quality of the communication. You
the quality of the communication. You look at all these couples that are
look at all these couples that are divorcing,
divorcing, okay? Or the couples that are in bad
okay? Or the couples that are in bad states.
states. It's because they were okay in the
It's because they were okay in the positive, but they don't know how to
positive, but they don't know how to deal deal with the negative. So, it's
deal deal with the negative. So, it's it's the measure of not just can we talk
it's the measure of not just can we talk about the happy stuff, the if you talk I
about the happy stuff, the if you talk I I talk to these elderly couples that
I talk to these elderly couples that have been married for 50 years and I
have been married for 50 years and I say, "What's what's your secret?" It's
say, "What's what's your secret?" It's it's not can you be happy in the happy.
it's not can you be happy in the happy. It's can you how long can you sit with
It's can you how long can you sit with the hard and how how long can you be in
the hard and how how long can you be in the in the sad times because those are
the in the sad times because those are going to happen. And I see that so many
going to happen. And I see that so many with the people. There's so many people
with the people. There's so many people who communicate with me or message or
who communicate with me or message or and they're going through a divorce or
and they're going through a divorce or they have been divorced and you realize
they have been divorced and you realize that it's it's not often that they fell
that it's it's not often that they fell out of love. They fell out of
out of love. They fell out of communication. They they stopped talking
communication. They they stopped talking to each other.
to each other. This is I think one of the great myths
This is I think one of the great myths we're sold when we get into our first
we're sold when we get into our first relationship is we think that the sign
relationship is we think that the sign of a good relationship is the lack of
of a good relationship is the lack of conflict. But if you've ever been in a
conflict. But if you've ever been in a long relationship, I think over time you
long relationship, I think over time you start to figure that it's not the amount
start to figure that it's not the amount of conflict. It's like it's it's how one
of conflict. It's like it's it's how one manages the conflict. I read a quote
manages the conflict. I read a quote which I've never forgotten which said
which I've never forgotten which said you can predict the long-term health of
you can predict the long-term health of a relationship by whether each cut heals
a relationship by whether each cut heals to 101% or 99%.
to 101% or 99%. >> I.e. does your conflict make you
>> I.e. does your conflict make you stronger?
stronger? >> Yeah. And if I look back through the
>> Yeah. And if I look back through the conflict that I've had with like my
conflict that I've had with like my partner that I've been with a long time
partner that I've been with a long time now, I go it has actually
now, I go it has actually deepened the roots.
deepened the roots. >> Yeah, it has to
>> Yeah, it has to >> like it's been productive conflict.
>> like it's been productive conflict. >> Mhm.
>> Mhm. >> You know, which has made us stronger. Um
>> You know, which has made us stronger. Um and that and that in part is because of
and that and that in part is because of many of the things that you talk about
many of the things that you talk about which is like trying not to win every
which is like trying not to win every argument,
argument, >> right?
>> right? >> And all the things in your book. It's
>> And all the things in your book. It's >> Yeah. Well, that's Sierra. That's what
>> Yeah. Well, that's Sierra. That's what Sierra talks about. Either way, it's
Sierra talks about. Either way, it's good. Like it's the conflict. You want
good. Like it's the conflict. You want conflict in your relationship for the
conflict in your relationship for the growth. It is rare that you can have
growth. It is rare that you can have individual growth alone.
individual growth alone. >> It has to be relational
>> It has to be relational >> 100%.
>> 100%. >> It has to be with other people. I I I
>> It has to be with other people. I I I can read a book on how to do something,
can read a book on how to do something, but until I do it,
but until I do it, >> it's it's a totally different game. So I
>> it's it's a totally different game. So I I I
I I learn relationally with things and with
learn relationally with things and with other people and places, but for sure
other people and places, but for sure relationship, I mean, there's just no
relationship, I mean, there's just no there's no other way to go around it.
there's no other way to go around it. you have to have the conflict if you
you have to have the conflict if you want to be if you want to be better. And
want to be if you want to be better. And I I've seen so many times where the
I I've seen so many times where the people um they
people um they face in their hands, they don't know how
face in their hands, they don't know how to talk to one another because they gave
to talk to one another because they gave up on trying to repair, but they're
up on trying to repair, but they're they're all in on trying to blame. Mhm.
they're all in on trying to blame. Mhm. >> And so when you are trying to
>> And so when you are trying to kind of undo what has to be done that
kind of undo what has to be done that makes it all the more difficult because
makes it all the more difficult because it's just so many years where there
it's just so many years where there could have been repair but there there
could have been repair but there there hasn't been and in turn that really
hasn't been and in turn that really hurts the relationship. I read a recent
hurts the relationship. I read a recent study that the biggest predictor of the
study that the biggest predictor of the child's well-being within the parental
child's well-being within the parental relationship
relationship is not whether they were married or
is not whether they were married or divorced. It was how they dealt with
divorced. It was how they dealt with conflict.
conflict. >> I mean, because how many people have had
>> I mean, because how many people have had parents that are still together but
parents that are still together but fight terribly?
fight terribly? >> Yeah. Oh my god. Yeah.
>> Yeah. Oh my god. Yeah. >> And in in fact should probably maybe not
>> And in in fact should probably maybe not be together.
be together. >> Yeah.
>> Yeah. >> Or those that they're divorced but
>> Or those that they're divorced but communicate. Great.
communicate. Great. >> Yeah.
>> Yeah. >> And they never put their child in the
>> And they never put their child in the middle of it and didn't use the child as
middle of it and didn't use the child as a a male carrier between the two. to to
a a male carrier between the two. to to be able to do that is I mean you're you
be able to do that is I mean you're you get to change the whole trajectory of of
get to change the whole trajectory of of a child's life
a child's life >> at some point. We have to forgive our
>> at some point. We have to forgive our parents, right?
parents, right? >> Yeah, that's that's the truth.
>> Yeah, that's that's the truth. >> Like you said, like they were they were
>> Like you said, like they were they were kids too, raised by parents that
kids too, raised by parents that >> this is their first time still doing it.
>> this is their first time still doing it. You know, [laughter]
You know, [laughter] >> you have a workbook on its way in March
>> you have a workbook on its way in March 10th called the next conversation
10th called the next conversation workbook.
workbook. >> Yeah. practical exercises for arguing
>> Yeah. practical exercises for arguing less and talking more, which really
less and talking more, which really takes everything that you wrote about
takes everything that you wrote about and turns it into an actionable
and turns it into an actionable blueprint framework for people that
blueprint framework for people that really want to embed these habits into
really want to embed these habits into their lives. Um, I'm going to link that
their lives. Um, I'm going to link that below. Is that available for pre-order?
below. Is that available for pre-order? Will it be? Yeah, there'll be a
Will it be? Yeah, there'll be a pre-order link. So, we'll put that in
pre-order link. So, we'll put that in the description below. You're also
the description below. You're also working on some AI stuff, which I think
working on some AI stuff, which I think was interesting.
was interesting. >> Yeah. Thank you. So, I'm about to
>> Yeah. Thank you. So, I'm about to release an AI of just my content. So it
release an AI of just my content. So it has my book, it has my podcasts, it has
has my book, it has my podcasts, it has my you any of my social clips of it has
my you any of my social clips of it has it all. And so it's a small language
it all. And so it's a small language model to where it's everybody can have
model to where it's everybody can have their own personal communication expert,
their own personal communication expert, you know, 247 kind of thing. It's what
you know, 247 kind of thing. It's what they have on it, but where people get to
they have on it, but where people get to practice. So what I love about it the
practice. So what I love about it the most is let's say you you say I'm about
most is let's say you you say I'm about to go into a important meeting and I
to go into a important meeting and I want to sound really confident. What can
want to sound really confident. What can I do? or I'm about to have a my spouse
I do? or I'm about to have a my spouse isn't listening or really upset. What
isn't listening or really upset. What could I do? You apply those right in
could I do? You apply those right in that that moment and gives you a
that that moment and gives you a different way of perspecting a different
different way of perspecting a different way of seeing things from a different
way of seeing things from a different view or what I definitely what I've uh
view or what I definitely what I've uh like is to tell it to be a boss. Be my
like is to tell it to be a boss. Be my boss who's really mean and arrogant and
boss who's really mean and arrogant and let's do an exercise of how to respond
let's do an exercise of how to respond to this situation. and you test is that
to this situation. and you test is that response going to be the best response
response going to be the best response and allow it to kind of have a a
and allow it to kind of have a a different way of practicing things that
different way of practicing things that maybe you need to be ready for cuz some
maybe you need to be ready for cuz some people need to be ready for the hard
people need to be ready for the hard response.
response. >> I'll link that below too.
>> I'll link that below too. >> Yeah.
>> Yeah. >> So people can have a play with that and
>> So people can have a play with that and sign up.
sign up. >> I'm excited.
>> I'm excited. >> We have a closing tradition where the
>> We have a closing tradition where the last guest leaves a question for the
last guest leaves a question for the next question left for you is who are
next question left for you is who are you most dying to meet and why?
you most dying to meet and why? >> Oh, that's a great one.
>> Oh, that's a great one. um
um person I would love to meet right now
person I would love to meet right now is probably Bnee Brown. That's probably
is probably Bnee Brown. That's probably it. Really, the fact that you brought
it. Really, the fact that you brought her up. The reason why is because
her up. The reason why is because >> I know that she's been in the space a
>> I know that she's been in the space a long time. And I feel that when she
long time. And I feel that when she shares stuff, it's very genuine. Like
shares stuff, it's very genuine. Like there's no guessing that she's real.
there's no guessing that she's real. >> Yeah. She's about as real and raw as
>> Yeah. She's about as real and raw as authentic as you can get. She's also a
authentic as you can get. She's also a Longhorn Texas Longhorn fan which I'm a
Longhorn Texas Longhorn fan which I'm a fan, but I feel like when and this is
fan, but I feel like when and this is just me personally, I kind of got pushed
just me personally, I kind of got pushed into this field
into this field and you you always look for people that
and you you always look for people that are your own anchors in life of who
are your own anchors in life of who you'd want to be a mentor kind of thing.
you'd want to be a mentor kind of thing. And that's somebody who's I feel like
And that's somebody who's I feel like has
has been in the the world and and knows some
been in the the world and and knows some things and has just some incredible
things and has just some incredible knowledge that's helped a lot of people.
knowledge that's helped a lot of people. >> She's most certainly authentic. She's
>> She's most certainly authentic. She's incredible.
incredible. >> Yeah.
>> Yeah. >> Well, I listen, if people haven't bought
>> Well, I listen, if people haven't bought your book, which is almost nobody, but
your book, which is almost nobody, but if there are still some people out there
if there are still some people out there that have haven't bought this book, I
that have haven't bought this book, I highly recommend it. I think I um
highly recommend it. I think I um included it in my Smith collection as
included it in my Smith collection as well in the UK. You did such a smash hit
well in the UK. You did such a smash hit success. It's a success on two
success. It's a success on two dimensions. It's sales and it's impact.
dimensions. It's sales and it's impact. >> Thank you.
>> Thank you. >> And um it's also incredibly accessible.
>> And um it's also incredibly accessible. So it's not like a a complicated science
So it's not like a a complicated science book and it's written for normal people
book and it's written for normal people that are going through very real
that are going through very real relatable normal problems. And um I
relatable normal problems. And um I think that's why it's been so
think that's why it's been so successful. I think you you approach
successful. I think you you approach these challenges from a very real place.
these challenges from a very real place. And maybe that's in part why it's been
And maybe that's in part why it's been so wonderfully received and so relatable
so wonderfully received and so relatable is because, you know, you're a trial
is because, you know, you're a trial attorney that's bringing this stuff to
attorney that's bringing this stuff to the masses, but you're not like a PhD
the masses, but you're not like a PhD scholar who might have draw thrown up
scholar who might have draw thrown up the drawbridge because they they they've
the drawbridge because they they they've spent all their life in academia.
spent all their life in academia. >> And I think the way that you communicate
>> And I think the way that you communicate is so relatable and resonant that it's
is so relatable and resonant that it's no wonder that you're you've been on an
no wonder that you're you've been on an absolute unbelievable terror over the
absolute unbelievable terror over the last couple years.
last couple years. >> It's phenomenal. Like crazy crazy
>> It's phenomenal. Like crazy crazy incredible. So congratulations and thank
incredible. So congratulations and thank you from all the people that you've
you from all the people that you've given thanks man
given thanks man >> a little bit of light to a little bit of
>> a little bit of light to a little bit of um
um >> you've empowered them with information
>> you've empowered them with information so that they can live the life that they
so that they can live the life that they um they deserve to live. That's a
um they deserve to live. That's a special thing Jefferson.
special thing Jefferson. >> I appreciate it. Thank you Ste. [music]
>> If there's anything we need it is connection especially in the world we're
connection especially in the world we're living in today. And that is exactly why
living in today. And that is exactly why we created these conversation cards.
we created these conversation cards. Because on this show, when I sit here
Because on this show, when I sit here with my guests and have those deep,
with my guests and have those deep, intimate conversations, this remarkable
intimate conversations, this remarkable thing happens time and time again. We
thing happens time and time again. We feel deeply connected to each other. At
feel deeply connected to each other. At the end of every episode, the guest I'm
the end of every episode, the guest I'm interviewing leaves a question for the
interviewing leaves a question for the next guest, and we've turned them into
next guest, and we've turned them into these conversation cards. And we've
these conversation cards. And we've added these twist cards to make your
added these twist cards to make your conversations even more interesting. And
conversations even more interesting. And there are so many more twists along the
there are so many more twists along the way with the conversation cards. This is
way with the conversation cards. This is the brand new edition. And for the first
the brand new edition. And for the first time ever, I've added to the pack this
time ever, I've added to the pack this gold card, which is an exclusive
gold card, which is an exclusive question from me. But I'm only putting
question from me. But I'm only putting the gold cards in the first run of
the gold cards in the first run of conversation cards. So get yours now
conversation cards. So get yours now before the limited edition gold cards
before the limited edition gold cards are all gone. Head to the link in the
are all gone. Head to the link in the description below. [music]
>> [singing] [music]
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