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For People Feeling Behind In Life - Do This Before 2025 Ends To Find Purpose & Meaning | Rick Rubin | Dr Rangan Chatterjee | YouTubeToText
YouTube Transcript: For People Feeling Behind In Life - Do This Before 2025 Ends To Find Purpose & Meaning | Rick Rubin
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Video Summary
Summary
Core Theme
The content emphasizes that individuals have the power to make choices that lead to a more joyful and fulfilling life, stressing the importance of self-care and authentic expression in both personal and creative endeavors. It suggests that true creativity and impact stem from being true to oneself, rather than conforming to external expectations or outcomes.
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we are in control of our own lives we
often don't realize we're in control but
we're in control of our own lives and we can
can
make different choices and if the things
in our life are not bringing us joy and
happiness if our career that we've
devoted all of our Lives to isn't
bringing us joy we can change them if we
decide our relationship is not the right
relationship we don't have to suffer in
that relationship
we have our own power and we can make a
change and it takes courage
um but it's in everyone's best interest
for us to take care of ourselves to be
in a relationship or in a job where
you're phoning it in because you think
it's your responsibility to do the job
there's probably someone who would do
that job with passion and bring more to
it than you are in your relationship if
you've fallen out of love
and you're going through the motions
you're not doing anyone any favors
it's not real and um and if you feel
depressed and you can't manage the life
you're in you can go move to another
part of the world you can live on a
beach you know you can you can
there's so many options available to us
that we don't you know we're stuck in
our small story of who we are and what
our lives are and
it's all a choice and we have the power
to change it anything anything in our
lives that doesn't give us joy
we can change and we can find the
version that that suits us and it's not
only in service to us it's ultimately
what's best for everyone you know when
you're on an airplane and they say if
the plane's going to go down these uh
masks are going to fall down put your
mask on first before you put on your
child's or anyone else's which is
counter-intuitive we always think we
take care of our children first
but if you're not taking care of
yourself you can't take care of anyone else
else
so I would say primarily take care of
yourself first if you want to save the
world save yourself
and then save your immediate family and
then save your immediate uh neighborhood
and then save your you know your um your town
town
start with small circles and build out
do you know meta meditation The Meta
meditation is uh might be filled with
loving kindness may I be well may I be
peaceful and at ease may I be happy we
repeat these four phrases over and over
again and for the first year or so of
doing it it's May I
and then after a year of May I we've
built up a strong enough charge to say
may we and the we might be your
immediate family first and you do that
for another year and build up the power
in that unit
and then you can extend it and by the
fifth year you can do it for the planet
but you can't do it for the planet first
because there's no built up charge so do
what's necessary to take care of
yourself build yourself up have the
strongest charge possible
that you could then share and make the
world a better place
we can live in a way where we're living
in an Artful way where we're uh
engaged and paying attention and um
making each choice count or we can live
in a
almost like sleepwalking through the day
which many many of us do
many of us do just
go along
yeah just you know repeat yesterday again
again
um and
I suppose the principal argument of the
book although it didn't set out to be
this way is that um
is that the way we choose to live in the world
impacts our ability to
to [Music]
[Music] um
um
to make more beautiful things it's it's
um it's less about
the making and more the being
and through the being
it's like a reverberation of it it's not
it's not the it's not the primary yeah I
didn't know that before starting the
book honestly it came through the
process of trying to understand how uh
uh [Music]
[Music]
how decisions
um have been made over the course of my
life that yielded good results creatively
creatively um
and it revealed itself through the
process of the book
I think it's very rare that I picked up
a book that has
resonated with me I would say on a deep
visceral level
as quickly as yours has
I think it's maybe the time in my life
the way I'm
experiencing it what I'm looking for at
the moment
but what really strikes him as
interesting is on the surface
surface
it kind of seems as though it's a book
about art
but actually it seems more to me
about being a book about
yes I would agree
you have been involved with the curating of
of
many music albums over the course of
your career some of the most famous
albums on the planet what was it like
working on a book
compared to working on music
felt felt very much out of my depth
with music I've done it long enough where
where
um I have a sense I want to say I have a
sense of how it works even though it's
still this magic process that I that we
have no control over
but because of you know 35 or 40 Years
of doing it uh
uh
it's not a total unknown
whereas the book was much more of an
unknown stepping into it and I've never
put out anything with my name on the
front of it before I'm always the you
know I'm essentially an invisible coach
sometimes people know about my
involvement but I'm a behind the scenes
uh participant in the projects that I am
in this is the first time that
it's actually me and I'm the person
talking about it usually the works that
I work on
I rarely talk about them because the
person whose name's on the front of the
record talks about them
so it's been an interesting different
experience and um
um and and
and and
finding words
to explain something that I don't know
can be explained and that I don't I
don't fully understand it's difficult
yeah that's where I think very evasive
you know it's like what I'm I'm
describing smoke and it's hard to
describe smoke
I think
that's where the magic for me in this
book is you
I guess you're writing about an
experience you're writing about the way
you have experienced art the way you see
art through your lens you you have
possibly the best opening to any book
ever nothing in this book is known to be
true it's a reflection and what I've
I love love it so so much
and I think one of the reasons
I like that opening so much is you know
I've been a practicing medical doctor
for 21 years now as we're having this
conversation Rick
and the more patients I see the more
people I'm able to help the more I realize
realize
I don't actually know that much
and some of the best clinicians and
doctors I've met
also share the same view like this you
know the more I know the more I realize
I just don't know and I'm always open to be
be
I'm always open to being surprised by
something a patient tells me or
something a patient experiences and actually
actually
I think there are so many similarities
between art the way you describe it in
your book and Medicine the way I like to
practice it
which is I think what is drawing me to
it so much
that's beautiful I didn't know that and
that really lands with me in a great in
a great way I hope there are more people
in the medical field who have have that feeling
you use the term invisible coach before
yeah which I think is a really beautiful
way of thinking about certainly what
I've read about you I've consumed as a
fan many of the albums you've been
involved with some of them have played
huge parts of my youth growing up at
and I was thinking well how can Rick can
do hip-hop and rock and Metal
and whatever genre you are helping that
now how do you help an artist to be
themselves if the artists themselves
doesn't know who they really are
sometimes they they uh they often don't
know who they are
and they often tell you who they are
without knowing they're telling you who
they are okay so through through really
through conversation
I imagine very similar to do you spend
when you when you get a new patient
if you spend time talking to them
absolutely okay and I imagine they tell
you things that
light up for you as okay I know what's
going on here yeah yeah when they're
telling it to you they have no idea yeah
it's exactly the same it's exactly the
same if I if you really listen
people tell you what they need
what they want what their dreams are and
they'll tell you I don't know what I
want I don't know what my dreams are I
don't know who I am and then they tell
you exactly this is who I am this is
what my dreams are but it but they're um
it's almost like sometimes we're too close
close
we're too close to be able to see
ourselves it's very difficult to see
ourselves it's funny just a few hours
ago I had a conversation with the chap
Called Bruce Lipton who wrote the book
the biology of belief
and it was a wonderful conversation and
Bruce talks about the conscious mind of
the subconscious mind and how 95 of our
lives are driven by our subconscious patterns
but what really connects with what you
were just saying there is we were
talking about how
we can see those patterns in other
people very clearly you can see in our
partner yes and our children and our
friends you're just like your mum you're
just like your dad but it's not so easy
to see it ourselves is it no no it's too
close and same same goes in in working
on things it's
um when we're creating something we we
can get into it to a point of
tunnel vision
to where through the singular focus of
working on it we lose perspective on
so it's something that that's helped that
that
artist an artist who writes their own
material might find helpful to have
they
they might be too close to it to truly
see what it is yeah
um and and it's helpful to have someone
say when I when I read these lyrics this
makes me feel this is that what you're
is that
and sometimes they'll say no not at all
not at all not only no not at all but if
that's what you got from it I have to
change it yeah
and other times it'll be yes that's
exactly what it means that's what I want
it to be and sometimes it's
no that's not what it means but it
doesn't but that's fine too you know
it's it really
each case depends on um there's no right
or wrong in any in any of these art decisions
decisions
an outside Source mirroring back what's
going on and it either resonates or not
did you have an invisible coach to help
you with your work in this book
because it sounds like that's what you
offer to other people
because as you just be beautifully said
we we can get too close to the work yeah
um so did you have people around you to
help you
maintain that perspective and distance
absolutely I had people helping along
the way in different capacities
um ultimately at the end of the project
Scott who's the editor at penguin press
in New York was really helpful in the
final touches of what worked and what didn't
didn't
um but all through the process
started working with
one writer and then working with another
I ended up working with many people over
the course of the seven years of working
on the book and
and
it went through lots of um
changes in iterations on the way
to get where where it is but it it
really helps to have
have uh
people who know more than you do about
the thing that you're working on help
has that been your experience with books
how is how has it worked yeah um
um
and the funny thing is well a couple of
things come up for me as I say that if
you'd ask me
seven years ago
do you have a book in you I might have
said yeah I think I've got one
I think I've got one book in me yes and
what I've learned through this process
of writing a book a year for the past
five years I can't imagine that well you
say that but you've got I guess you've
done that in your field in music right
you've probably helped so it's I guess
whenever it's in a different field we we
see it differently but
and I want to talk about deadlines and
all kinds of things because it all sort
of plays in um
um
but I've I've come to the belief that
humans are infinitely creative yes and
that when I finish one book and I've
it's gone off to print and I've done a
round of interviews on it
I feel like I've I've solidified those
thoughts I've shared them in the world
and then I've empty the space in my
brain Forks
new ideas are coming and then I'm
suddenly seeing new ideas fantastic everywhere
everywhere
but if you'd asked me a few years ago I
said no I can't I've just got one I've
got nothing else to share but in terms
of your question Rick
one of the things I've learned I
remember the first time I sent an edit
into penguin I thought yeah I'm happy
with this and
came back with all these comments
comments
um not clear this that happened
initially I think I found it hard and
that's probably an ego thing and what
I've learned over the last few years is
that you know these edits are great
they're absolutely fantastic you don't
have to agree with them all but don't be
attached to your idea too much just
listen to what people have to say then
really tune in and go actually
do you agree is it helpful so I've had a
I've had a love hate relationship with
feedback I think it's I think it's in a
good place now but I think the problems
I initially faced if I'm honest and I do
have a tendency to be a bit
self-critical but I think they were to
do with ego
what is it like for you when you receive
comments about some of the work that
you've worked on some of the words that
you've written um I'm
um I'm
open to hearing them and um
in in every case it seemed to lead to it
getting better yeah
I would agree with that because even if
you don't necessarily agree yeah even
the thought process and going why don't
I agree well oh yeah but actually
there's an element of Truth there which
resonates so I and there's a big theme
in the book is you talk about art being collaborative
but you must have come across ego I imagine
imagine
in your career
have you come across ego and how have
you managed it um
um absolutely
absolutely
think part of the
secret of collaborating with someone
who's uh has an inflated ego which is
comes along with the territory of you
know if you go on stage in front of 20
000 people screaming for you every day
yeah you can that can fill you up [Music]
[Music] um
I think a lot of uh having critical
serious critical conversations has to do
with taking the person out of it
and um talk about it in the book The
the more the comments or the more
specific and um
um
external they are
so we're talking about a song If I say
your words aren't good enough that's
really a personal affront yeah
but if we have the lyrics out here we're
looking at the lyrics together
and the idea is together we're going to
look at this and see is there anything
that either of us can see that can make
this better
it's different it's like we move it and
and we get very specific and it's not
your lyrics it's these lyrics you know
um or whatever it is that the more that
it's outside of us
if someone tells you an idea and you say
I don't like that idea that's person
that's personal yeah
but if someone makes a model of
something and you say well I like this
but I don't like this you're you're
talking about a model you're not talking
about the person
and by the way none of it's personal
that's that's the important part is
making it clear
we're working together for the best
thing to occur and none of it's personal
we're on the same team
and we're working together on behalf of
this outside object yeah
that same principle applies in relationships
relationships
as as well as making art doesn't it if
it's not personal if it's just about the
thought or
um the thing that you're discussing and
you can make it non-personal it's going
to have a much more productive outcome
even with ourselves you know how we how
we speak to ourselves yeah
yeah
I remember when I um I was sedentary
most of my life and I weighed uh 100
pounds more than I do now
and when I first
um met this group of athletes who
invited me to train with them which was
Radical I lost a bunch of weight and
they invited me to train with them foreign
foreign
I remember they showed me an exercise
and I said I can't do that and they say
no never say you can't do it say I
haven't done it yet
I haven't done it yet and that's true
with everything it's like there's
nothing that you can't do you may not
have done it yet
we don't know if you can do it or not
until you really practice and then you
find out if you can do it or not or how
well you can do it yeah
I want to talk later on this
conversation about your physical
transformation because I
I think it's incredibly fascinating
there's so many different strands and
the way we talk to ourselves which
you've just hinted out there
there was a bit in the book where you
were talking about
feeling insecure maybe doubting yourself
versus doubting yeah which I thought was
a a beautiful distinction and then then
you wrote this gorgeous bit which is
basically insecurity
is only a hindrance
when it stops you sharing what's in your
heart wow that's beautiful it's funny I
I told you I don't really know what's in
the book because over seven years all
the information came out
but it's not it's even when I was
working on it's not things that I
necessarily know yeah it is beautiful
and beautiful
it's one of those phrases I've
underlined I've written it in my
notebook because I feel at this moment
in my life Rick
think about that a lot I think about
art I think about the expression of
ideas and
once you start trying to
do something for an outcome yes
yes
I think I've experienced in the past
that that's where the problems start to
rise you start to fracture
the core of who you are and I think you
can be successful by a societal metric
of success
but in the process
a part of you starts to weather in sight
yes uh so I I think that is so so
as a research you Rick that one of the
big ideas that comes up is that you talk about
about
how you can't make art if you're
thinking about the outcome or you're
thinking about business are you thinking
about how many copies it's going to sell
or what are the audience going to think
have you always had that perspective on
arts or is that something you've
developed through experience I've always
had it and um I think it's because it
started as a hobby and I never in a way
I never took it seriously in one way I
took it more serious than anything else
in terms of the making of the art but I
never took it seriously in terms of it
being a commercial thing ever at any
point from the beginning it was always
you know the Hope was that it would sell
enough to be able to make another one
that's all it ever was it was you know
very um
meager expectations
I always thought I'd have a real job
and then I would make music because
that's what I love to do and I thought
well I have a job and that would support
my music habit I never understood that
it could be I didn't even know it could
be a job
do you consider a real job now
yes and no I mean I I it has worked out
that I haven't had to do anything else
so I guess and I have an incredibly
beautiful life um
and I suppose based on the fact that
I have a schedule and I'm obligated to
show up so I have commitments it is a
job yeah that said
when I'm there there's nothing more fun
than seeing something appear that wasn't
there before yeah and um The Wonder of
it because again I I don't feel in
control of the process I don't think
anyone has control of the process I
think there's truly magic going on we
can set the stage to best support it to
happen yeah but we can't make it happen
and um it's it's uh it's it's thrilling
when it does and and I and I also you
know one of the things I say in the book
is the audience comes last and the
audience comes last not because I don't
care about them or I don't like the audience
audience
in in service to the audience they have
to come last
the I the thing that the audience wants
is the best thing they can get if we're
if we're trying to make it for them it
won't be the best thing it can get it'll
water it down it'll the process of
making something for someone else
undermines it
this is something I've learned through
I mean there's so much
that I've learned in the last four and a
half nearly five years of putting this
but one of the things I've deeply deeply
learned is that
I will choose every guest and I will
choose it based on my curiosity
and I remember talking to my team about
this a few months ago and said look
people are wanting this people wanting
that people want this guest
and I take that very seriously it's not
that I'm disregarding that
but if I'm going to be truly authentic
and true to myself and therefore true to them
them
I've learned that actually no wrong and
you have to almost selfishly choose the
guests yes the
the
excite you that awakens something inside
of you that you passionately want to sit
there for two hours with and go deep with
with
because otherwise the audience will will
hear it if you've just rolled it out
you've got the right guest you've said
the right things I remember saying on a
podcast a few years ago when I was a
guest on someone else's show and it just
came out of me I said
although I'm a medical doctor and people
consider this a health podcast in many
ways which I think is very limiting anyway
anyway um
um
my podcast is not an information
delivery system
it's about authenticity if I can connect
with my guests
that's all I'm looking for is a deep
connection and any information any
helpful information will kind of spit
out as a side effect of that connection
yes and I don't think I recognize that
when I started podcasting but the more I've
I've
worked on and hopefully got better at
the skill Affairs I passionately believe
that that's the case it sounds right it
sounds right and um and it's been the
case that people like what you're doing
so it's a good sign
do you always know in the moment when
you're in a studio with a band of solo
artists and something magical's happening
happening
do you always know in the moment not
always yeah no not always just had an
interesting experience to tell you about it
it
um just before coming to Europe I was in
uh Malibu for a few weeks and I made a
new album with Neil Young Neil Young and
Crazy Horse
and it was unlike any experience I've
ever had before in the recording studio
and I've had a lot of experiences in the
recording studio but this was really unusual
unusual
and um I don't know how much you know
about Crazy Horse but Neil has played
with Crazy Horse for 50 years the band
the band members are all turning 80 next
year but Neil is not uh I think Neil
I think Neil's 76 or 77 not sure
um but the band members all turned 80. and
and
they're not
um like Studio musicians they're not
like crack musicians they have a sound
that's their sound and it's couldn't be
more authentic it's they when they play
it sounds like them um
but in terms of like learning the
material it doesn't just happen
instantaneously like Studio musicians
barely even need to hear it and they can
play it and it's perfect that that's not
the case with with Crazy Horse
and we played through songs for the
first week and I will say it was rough
uh rough to the point of
not only did we not get the recordings
that that um
who were
the the basis of a great album but
it was a question of whether they would
ever be able to play the songs that's
how how far off it seemed
and um and we so the first week is a
slow week and but they play through all
the songs as I say poorly but we but we
get through the week and now I'm
thinking okay maybe next week now that
they've played them one time when we
come back it's going to be better the
next time
and uh and Neil suggests what song to
start with on the next Monday we're back
fresh new week and um
and the drummer Ralph so we already
played that one
and uh and and it was a remarkable
moment because
um they did play it but it was uh in a
very um
um
unclear form yeah and then we spent the
next week playing the songs again and um
most of them did not get better in some
cases they got worse and it was again fascinating
fascinating
and then Neil suggested you know let's
listen back to the songs from that first
week which in the moment seemed nowhere near
near close
close
and we listened through and then it's
like well this moment is really good and
and
if this part didn't have this mistake
we don't know like the distract the
mistake is a distraction distracts us to
think it's no good but it's really this
mistake let's repair the mistake
and we kind of went through it and did
not much
and then listen back and say hmm it's
much better than we thought and and now
the album The album's done I think it's
beautiful I love it I really love it and
Neil loves it and knows it's special
and um and I think pretty much every one
of the tracks was recorded in that first
week when at the moment it seemed like I
don't know if they'll ever be able to
play these yeah it's unbelievable
it's incredible to hear that especially
with such
an experience producer and experience and
and um
um
I wonder what that is is it a bit like
I'm sure you went through this through
the writing process when
you've written a chapter
and yeah you're not sure
I don't know and then when you read a
few paragraphs that I'm not sure I'm
getting my idea out there the way I
wanted to is it clear enough and then
you just remove one sentence or you just
remove one from this paragraph one from
that paragraph then oh now it's singing
now it's humming now it's purring
beautifully yes is it a bit like that
absolutely you can yeah sometimes
removing the distractions
falls into place and and I can also say
the opposite is true in the studio where
we'll be working and trudging along and
it seems mediocre and then all of a
sudden it gets good and everyone looks
at each other like
something's happening you know and we
you feel it in the moment that that's
actually more common yeah feeling it in
the moment and recognizing something
special is happening
um but this was a really interesting
case because it was the furthest extreme
in the opposite direction that I've ever
experienced yeah and what's interesting
for me uh
as someone hearing that story is
you're constantly being surprised
all your years of experience and
knowledge and then even even you are
getting surprised all the time daily I'm
surprised daily yeah and there's another
quote I was going to talk to you about which
which um
um
I nearly brought up when you were
chatting about writing the book because
you said I think you were talking about
essentially it being out of your comfort
zone it was unusual for you to be
writing yourself putting your name on
the front
and again I maybe because I'm just
started writing book six at the moment
um but I love this Beware of the
assumption that the way you work is the
best way simply because it's the way
you've done it before yeah beautiful yeah
yeah
yeah there is no right way and um
sometimes when we do something and find
success in the way we've done it we
think that's the way it works
yeah but it's rarely the only way
and that and it could quickly become a
limiting belief
if you start making things that all
start seeming very similar yeah
so opening it up to trying a completely
different way using a different palette um
um
collaborating with different people um
um
so in so many different ways in
being open to
if you're a rock band maybe the acoustic
version is interesting you know we don't
yeah if you if you're used to playing loud
loud
you don't think the quiet version could
be good but you never know it's like
let's let's turn over all the stones
let's see what's possible there's
another similarity here between
art and Medicine
and well I guess my view on medicine
more and more is that for most
of the cases I see
helping a patient to
get better whatever that means yes
I'm convinced now more than ever that
it's more art than science yes
I understand for a very acute case
um or you know you need a heart
operation like I know you've spoken
about publicly before you need a super
skilled surgeon who can go in and do
what's necessary I understand that
but for the bulk of things that people
are complaining of these days
I think the job of a healthcare
professional or a medical doctor like myself
myself
is to be like you are to your artist an
invisible coach right reflect back to
them help them realize that they've got more
more
autonomy more control more influence on
their health than they think yes but
also realize that what you've just said
that there is no one right way like I
can see 10 different people
with symptoms of inadverted commas depression
depression
and there may well be 10 different ways yes
yes
to help those 10 people and actually the
same person
you may be able to get them better in
five different ways yes
so I it's funny you know I
the the book
it ain't just about making records it's
not about writing books it's also about
seeing patience it's about
I think you say somewhere that it's
about you know art and creativity is
actually about the way we experience life
life
and that's why I think it is so magical
because these are little bits of
Timeless wisdom
that in many ways you've written through
the lens of music
but actually you're applicable to everything
everything
I hope so I hoped to write the book in
an open enough way where and I think the
nature of the principles that that are
discussed are not about music yeah and
while I view them as being about art
it is true we can live in an Artful way
and it'll be better than if we don't
regardless of what it is we're doing
are we all artists
we all we all are artists the question
is is are we a better artist today than
we were yesterday and are we doing
everything we can to be the best artists
we can be tomorrow
and it's it's uh we're all art we may
not all be da Vinci
but are are we better than we were and
can we continue to become better and
better and better and it's an ongoing
iterative process over the course of Our Lives
creativity of course is a
huge part of Arts and
and
I was thinking about this this morning when
when
sort of reflecting that we were going to
have a conversation today I was thinking well
well
if if life is Arts
and creates everything is an expression
or something we have to tap into to
express our art then maybe the way we
are with our children the way we are
with our partners that's creativity as
well absolutely yeah absolutely all of
it and how we are with ourselves again
it's all it's all of those things
um anything we do to
if we're dealing with some uh
uh
some issue
and if we decide to take a pill for that
issue or decide to make a creative
change in our life
that allows the issue to resolve itself
that's a creative choice
and um
it seems like in terms of the
sustainability of being able to do these
things for a long time
maybe the taking the pill version isn't
how often uh as a physician how often do
you recommend a lifestyle change versus
uh Pharmaceutical
I mean pretty much 99 of the time if not
100 these days this is what my
entire career and certainly with
patience but also my public facing
career this is what it's all about is to
help people realize actually
the majority of what we're struggling
with today
is a result of our Collective modern
Lifestyles and I say that very yes
carefully I'm not blaming people yes
it's our Collective modern Lifestyles yes
yes
and actually I believe this book now I
think about it
you can make you can make a case of this
as a health book because if
art is an authentic expression of who we
are and we're going to do that
irrespective of the outcome irrespective
what people are going to think
if it's truly about authenticity
then I can categorically
say with certainty that people living in
authentic lives
results in so many of the problems that
I see simple one like if you are not
living uh in alignment with your values
with that disconnect and who you are
with that fracture that's opened up in
the core of who you are you will put
things in that void sugar alcohol
whatever it might be it's often trying
to fill the void of inauthenticity so
the book I feel is is helping people
live a meaningful more authentic life
with some simple but very very
Timeless and apt truths
so I would have thought if people
absorbed them and live their lives by them
them
that it will also help improve their
health absolutely I'll tell you a story I
I
um I used to live in
um artist hours with musical artist
hours so I would sleep until
typically noon although it could be as
late as three
and then I would not leave the house
until the sun set and then I would work
in the studio all night long and usually
drive home as the sun was Rising that
was my normal schedule
for years and years and years
even back to high school I missed the
first three classes of high school um
um
for the last two years of high school
pretty consistently because I was already
already
training this late night night owl
schedule which just felt it felt natural
to me and it was
it seemed the way other people who were
interested in the things that I were
interested did the same
and um
I worked with a performance coach named
Phil maffetone
who and this was
um let's say 20 years ago yeah
and the first thing he said is and I
sleep with these blackout blinds and he
said the first thing I want you to do is
as soon as you wake up
open the blinds and go outside
preferably naked but at least as much of
your body in the Sun as possible the
minute you wake up yeah and he had me
start doing that and at this time I was
waking up at noon and I started doing
that and
and very quickly
I started waking up earlier and earlier
and earlier and earlier it happened
um when he suggested it to me
what I heard so he said I want you to go
outside in the center the minute you
wake up what I heard was I want you to
jump off a cliff
that's how that's how
radical and terrifying it sounded
compared to how my experience of what
what uh what's safe and comfort in life
was was not that
and um that was the first like getting
in tune with the planet I didn't it was
something I didn't know about I didn't
know about that so in terms of being
your authentic self also being your your
authentic animal on this planet there
are certain um
uh
his historically uh on a DNA level yeah
there are things that our bodies like
and in our modern world we don't take
those into consideration
evolutionary truths I guess absolutely
and now I do as much as I can to live by the
the
um you know the way people lived a
thousand years ago as possible or ten
thousand or a hundred thousand yeah
I'm familiar with film office work um
um
I think it's great I hope to
get in touch with Phil at some point and
have it on the show I'd love to talk to
him yes um
um
you have in a previous interview
described your weight loss Journey as creative
creative
then if you recall that or not or I
can't remember the context but I know
but that's interesting yeah I found that
really interesting so I thought wow
I'm trying to broaden the lens on arts
and creativity through you know really
reading your book has
it's been it's for it's it's not force
me it's encourage me down a path of
introspection about what does art really
mean yes
and I found it's so interesting hearing
you Rick say that I thought weight loss
is creative
do you have any idea what you might have
meant by that I'm not sure I'm not sure
I can tell you about the experience
though it was an interesting
I was overweight my entire life
my mom was obese and towards the end of
her life was in a wheelchair due to her obesity
obesity
I've been
dieting and I went to Weight Watchers
with my mom when I was a kid I'd
I'd
tried every fad diet along the way and
nothing seemed to change
and and then finally
I I was at this breaking point when I
when I reached out to Phil I read a book
by a guy named Stu middleman who ran a
thousand miles in 11 days and I was
thinking I can't you know walk to the
end of the block and it's and and
another human being can run a thousand
miles in 11 days so this I have bad
information you know like I'm doing
something wrong
and um and in in Stu's book he talked
about Phil and that's how he was able to
do this crazy thing and okay I have to
meet this guy Phil he know he has the
answers and I've met with Phil and I met
with Phil several times then he
eventually ended up moving into my house
and we lived together for two years and
and
I did everything he said and my health
improved radically and my um
my Vitality turned back on from
essentially being off from a life of
sedentary I was also a vegan for 20
something years which
really uh created havoc in my body it
was not it was not right for me why were
you a vegan for ethical reasons for
health combination combination
um it started
I gave up originally in college I gave up
up uh
uh
Coca-Cola Pepsi Cola first
Ben gave up
and I I did those things I would say
thinking that it was help beliefs about health
um and I got down to the point where I
was I wasn't using any caffeine I was
drinking uh only water and I was eating
chicken and vegetables at that point in time
time
and uh then I moved to California and a
friend gave me a book called diet for a
new America which
is a
a book about veganism essentially
and he said if you read this book you're
not going to want to eat chicken anymore
because it talked about the horrors of
industrial meat
and I thought well if I give up chicken
I'm going to die because all I'm eating
now is chicken and vegetables so I can't
do that
um and I thought at that time before I
read the book I'm going to experiment
and see how long I can go without eating chicken
chicken
and um and then I ended up not eating
chicken again for 20 some odd years and
just ended up eating vegetables and a
lot of uh processed vegan food which was
it turns out not very healthy
or at least not healthy for me oh I can
only speak to my experience but my
experience was and and I will say most
of the vegans I know I knew
didn't look very healthy either
how heavy were you at your heaviest
um 318 pounds but I don't know what that
is in kilograms yeah okay
okay 318 pounds and then
you start working with Phil
start working with Phil did everything
he said my hours changed I got in tune
with the planet
um I was able to do stairs and walk long
distances without
um dying was he doing the heart rate yes
he gave you your heart rates yes and
said I want you to move your body but
not go above this specific heart rate
yes low uh
aerobic heart heart rate so he has a
formula that doesn't need like 180 minus
your age and then you can vary
certain things yeah exactly so but when
you were asked to do that yes so you can
you know get walking or getting it says
but your heart rate can't go above a
certain number that he gave you well you
want to keep your heart rate right at
that number as close as you can get if
you're walking
slowly and you're not getting to that
number you're not doing it you want to
be as close to the target number as
possible for as long as you can you'd
wear a heart rate monitor absolutely and
you'd literally be out walking and
checking either out when at this point
in time I lived in Los Angeles so out
walking is not so easy because the hills
make it nearly impossible
um so I had a treadmill and I did it on
a treadmill at that point in time
so he changes your circadian rhythm by
getting you to see natural lights in the
morning yes which is in tune with your
evolutionary biology and your heritage
yes and vitamin D and um uh the
ultraviolet I got all the benefits of
being in the sun in addition to getting
on the on the um on the right
schedule yeah
and did he make changes to your diet
absolutely he wanted me to eat meat he
wanted me to eat everything
um other than carbs which at that time I
wasn't able to do because I was still a
vegan so
he had me add fish and eggs as the minimal
minimal
of what I could do and and I ate them
both not I never liked fish
growing up I didn't eat fish
and eggs was never something I liked
and and he said regardless whether you
like them or not this is medicine you
take it as medicine think of it as
medicine you need animal protein and
and
I had the I added the animal protein I
cut all soy I cut nuts I cut
I cut I cut a lot of things
and I didn't did not lose weight I lost
maybe five or ten pounds over the two
years that we worked together and you
stuck to the advice absolutely he was
with me and he said at the end of it he
said and he said 99 out of 100 people
who've done what you did all their
weight would fall off for some reason it
hasn't with you and then I thought well
my mom's obese it's just a genetic thing
this is what it is but at least I'm
healthy now you know at least and I felt
very healthy I think that's an
interesting lesson there so you
radically transform your lifestyle I
guess the goal initially was weight loss
it was so the goal was weight loss and
although you didn't really
gets or meet your goal I'm sure you want
in more than five or ten pounds yes yes
you got all these
unexpected benefits
um can you remember what they were it's
like energy or yeah I felt great I felt
great better than you felt before oh
absolutely so much better
so much better so much better
in so many ways and then so that so now
I'm a healthy heavy person
and that went on for years
and then I was suggested to go to see a
nutritionist by I have had a mentor he
just passed away maybe
three weeks ago named Moe Austin
beautiful man he was he worked for Frank
Sinatra and he signed Jimi Hendrix and
he signed the sex pistols and he was a a
really uh one of the most beautiful
people ever in the music business
and I went out to lunch with him one day
and he said you know I'm really getting
worried about you I know that you you
swim every day and you watch what you
eat because I did but you're really
getting big and I'm concerned and I'm
gonna get the name of a nutritionist I
want you to go to my nutritionist and do
whatever he said whatever he says and I
said okay I'll do it knowing it was not
going to work because again I've been
diligent my whole life in wanting to
lose weight and nothing has worked so
I'm assuming nothing will work
but I go along with it because I like Mo
and I'll do anything he asked me to do
and I went to see his guy and he put me on
egg [ __ ] he had me have seven
egg shakes a day
and then
fish soup salad for dinner but very low
calorie so it was it was not so
different than what Phil was
recommending except the difference was
Phil suggests not counting calories
and I can see I understand the idea of
not counting calories and now I've come
to realize I think not counting calories
Works once you're at your target weight
but to get to your target weight you may
need to count calories yeah
first of all I'm sorry to hear about
your friends and Mensa yeah um
um yeah
yeah
so I so I went on a radically reduced
calorie diet I don't know 13 or 1400
calories a day and
um and in 14 months I lost 135 pounds
which is you know a third of my body
more more than a third of my body weight
wow it's interesting hearing that because
because
whether it's 99 or a significant uh
majority of people if they followed What Phil
Phil
yes we're saying would absolutely yes
have had better health better Vitality
better energy and they would have lost
weight yes because I've used that sort
of approach with not everyone what with
many of my patients and it can work
super super well and Phil said it worked
for if
everyone he's done it with its work so
he was he was baffled yeah and I think
that counts in calories saying is
again I think your story speaks to
you know an idea in your book that
don't get too attached to one way
there's always another way you know
absolutely and we're all different and
we're all different and what works for
you might not work for someone else and
it's helpful
to you know sometimes we have wisdom imparted
imparted
by an expert
who's telling us what what through their
experience is best yeah but it may be
what's best for them and not best for
you and we are not we are not one size
fits all yeah and it goes back to my
previous comment which is as you get
more experienced if you're open-minded
and yeah close-minded yes
after seeing tens of thousands of
patients if you remain open-minded
you're like there are always surprises
yes there are always people doing things
that you haven't tried before that but
they're doing and they're getting better
I've always liked to approach it with
curiosity and go wow that's interesting
I didn't know that I wouldn't have
suggested that but that's working for
you and I'd like to know more I'd love
to learn more absolutely that's I that's
my way of being in the world if someone
tells me something that doesn't make
sense to me I want to know more I want
to know everything I don't I don't uh
discount what they're saying just the
opposite yeah I guess it's it's whether
you're attached to an identity whether
you're attached to being right
or whether you're I guess attached to
learning yes because for me I think
that's the fundamental difference now
and I feel that's one of the key
moves I've made which is why I think at
this stage in my life you know my
mid-40s I've I've never felt this happy
and content and I think this is a big
part of it yeah Rick that it's not about
being right anymore I'm not okay fine if
I'm wrong about something okay great
I've had the opportunity to learn
something yes and I think calories for
for many people
I think where this calorie thing comes
for years I think a lot of people are
trying to count calories and a lot of
people of the view that if you focus on
the right Foods actually your natural
satiety will take care of those calories
for you that's certainly been my
experience for most people but as you're
just sharing well actually for some
people it might well be helpful
um and do you still count calories today
no well the other thing that I found
about counting calories that was really
helpful is
it is helpful to know where calories are
for example
when you know I
I'm in I I used to like peanut butter
and I switched to almond butter because
it was the healthier choice
but the amount of calories in half of a
jar of almond butter
are quite a lot so so I'm making but I'm
making a healthy choice and in my mind
well it's the healthy one I can have
half a bottle of almond butter because I
like it and I'm hungry so I'll have that
understanding that the the half of Jar
of almond butter had more calories than
I meant to eat in in a whole day in
addition to all the food that I eat
was helpful to me yeah it's an
empowerment piece isn't it you can now
use that information and now without
count and go hey I want a bit of almond
butter but I better not have half the
jar yes and now I rarely will have
almond butter just because it's so um
the trade-off of the amount of calories
for what it is I might not make that
choice yeah and again it's an
empowerment you're now with that
information absolutely you're saying for
you yeah it's not worth the trade-off
yes Bob down the street it's up to him
he may go yeah that's I I definitely
would rather eat less later but have my
almond butter yes and um yeah
super super interesting so you you
effectively went on a super low calorie
diet high protein no carb low calorie
diet so with Phil you had huge
improvements in multiple aspects of your
health yeah just not weight loss correct
when you saw uh your your late friend's
nutritionist yes
you got this incredible weight loss was
there anything else you got with it or
it this is an interesting one
I felt like I
I really in that in that case what he
was suggesting with the nutritionist was
suggesting was suggesting seemed very
far out to me it seemed extreme to me
and I felt like by doing what he said I was
was
I was
putting my faith in him
and turning turning myself over I didn't
do what I thought was best I did what he
thought was best which was not something
I'm good at um
and I found through that through giving
up what I thought was best that's how I
so what's the lesson there don't always
trust yourself well we can't we can't
always trust ourselves but it's
interesting that there are times when
it's it's an experiment you know it's an
experiment that sometimes
I'm gonna do it the way that doesn't
sound right to me and see what happens
again it's all a test
but to but I before I was I would have
been closed to that test because
that doesn't sound right to me I'm not
going to do that this didn't sound right to me but out of respect for Mo I'll try
to me but out of respect for Mo I'll try it
it yeah it's an interesting concept isn't
yeah it's an interesting concept isn't it because I guess
it because I guess we'd always want people to trust
we'd always want people to trust themselves
but nothing tends to be true at the extremes does it it's kind of like yeah
extremes does it it's kind of like yeah sure trust yourself trust yourself but
sure trust yourself trust yourself but sometimes lean in and trust someone else
sometimes lean in and trust someone else and see what happens yes
and see what happens yes it's a bit like that section in in the
it's a bit like that section in in the book The Britain on rules
book The Britain on rules and how
and how rules are sometimes always oh we're
rules are sometimes always oh we're always okay so tell me about rules
always okay so tell me about rules [Music]
[Music] um
um I think rules are there to be tested and
I think rules are there to be tested and when when a rule comes
when when a rule comes it can it can either be a useful rule
it can it can either be a useful rule or an A not useful Rule and
or an A not useful Rule and sometimes we'll adopt a set of rules on
sometimes we'll adopt a set of rules on purpose a limitation that that
purpose a limitation that that um
um to create a specific uh
to create a specific uh uh you may work on a book like every
uh you may work on a book like every time you work on a book you this you
time you work on a book you this you have a rough idea of what it's going to
have a rough idea of what it's going to be about it's not about everything yeah
be about it's not about everything yeah not every book is about everything so
not every book is about everything so you set up an organization for that book
you set up an organization for that book that's rules and that's rules that
that's rules and that's rules that you're adopting for that book
you're adopting for that book so there's time where having rules make
so there's time where having rules make sense in general in the world
sense in general in the world rules are there to establish
rules are there to establish an average Behavior
an average Behavior and I'm not sure that average is
and I'm not sure that average is anything to Aspire to so sometimes
anything to Aspire to so sometimes especially in art if you want to create
especially in art if you want to create something special
something special often it comes from breaking rules from
often it comes from breaking rules from going beyond the accepted Norm of how
going beyond the accepted Norm of how it's done
it's done yeah I'll tell you this is an
yeah I'll tell you this is an interesting medical story about going
interesting medical story about going beyond the Norms of how things are I
beyond the Norms of how things are I just heard the story recently
just heard the story recently um I have a friend who's a brilliant
um I have a friend who's a brilliant brain surgeon maybe one of the best in
brain surgeon maybe one of the best in the world
the world and he told me the story of doing a
and he told me the story of doing a brain surgery where
brain surgery where there was a big tumor in a part in the
there was a big tumor in a part in the brain it was a very particularly
brain it was a very particularly dangerous operation because the tumor
dangerous operation because the tumor was right next to the part of the brain
was right next to the part of the brain that allows a person to speak yeah
that allows a person to speak yeah and if the if the surgery went too far
and if the if the surgery went too far the person would never speak again
the person would never speak again and to do the surgery the person was
and to do the surgery the person was anesthetized but had to be awake and had
anesthetized but had to be awake and had to be speaking the whole time
to be speaking the whole time it's the only way to know how far you
it's the only way to know how far you can go
can go so the surgeon is doing these
so the surgeon is doing these the hiney slices of taking this tumor
the hiney slices of taking this tumor away tiny slices tiny slices in the
away tiny slices tiny slices in the person speaking to him and he knows well
person speaking to him and he knows well I'm getting close to the place I can't
I'm getting close to the place I can't go you know I can't go past because then
go you know I can't go past because then the person will never speak again
the person will never speak again and he's going in person speaking but
and he's going in person speaking but the tumor's still there and he's going
the tumor's still there and he's going and he's going he's going
and he's going he's going and then he gets to the part where he's
and then he gets to the part where he's not allowed to go further and the
not allowed to go further and the person's still speaking and he does
person's still speaking and he does another slice and the person's still
another slice and the person's still speaking he does another slice and he
speaking he does another slice and he does another slice and he keeps going
does another slice and he keeps going and he moved right through
and he moved right through where that what the textbook says you
where that what the textbook says you can't do and the person's speaking the
can't do and the person's speaking the whole time
whole time and and he said
and and he said it was me it was incredible it was an
it was me it was incredible it was an incredible experience and
incredible experience and the way we thought the brain works is
the way we thought the brain works is not the way the brain works
not the way the brain works and then I said well
and then I said well how much of the
how much of the how much of what's taught today in
how much of what's taught today in medical school in the textbook in
medical school in the textbook in medical school textbooks of medical
medical school textbooks of medical school how much of that information is
school how much of that information is accurate and up to date and how much
accurate and up to date and how much isn't and he said maybe half
isn't and he said maybe half maybe half of what's being taught right
maybe half of what's being taught right now
now might be right I'm at least half is
might be right I'm at least half is either wrong or obsolete yeah
either wrong or obsolete yeah that's incredible it's incredible
that's incredible and and that's why it's a Folly to to
and and that's why it's a Folly to to cling too tightly to these beliefs or
cling too tightly to these beliefs or these so-called truths that you've been
these so-called truths that you've been taught yes we don't know you don't know
taught yes we don't know you don't know no we don't know we know so little and
no we don't know we know so little and and I think the real
and I think the real um Power we can have is embracing how
um Power we can have is embracing how little we know
little we know to live in wonder you know it's it's a
to live in wonder you know it's it's a it's a much more beautiful way you you
it's a much more beautiful way you you said earlier about giving up being right
said earlier about giving up being right um
um when someone says to me you're right it
when someone says to me you're right it always makes me uncomfortable I don't
always makes me uncomfortable I don't want to be right I just want to know I
want to be right I just want to know I just want to know more do you know what
just want to know more do you know what I mean because if I'm right that means
I mean because if I'm right that means someone's wrong I don't want anybody to
someone's wrong I don't want anybody to be wrong I I want us all to just find
be wrong I I want us all to just find our way yeah you know it's not there's
our way yeah you know it's not there's there's no sense of competition in it
there's no sense of competition in it it's like let's work together to find
it's like let's work together to find our way
as someone who's not used to putting that name on the front set for work
that name on the front set for work they've been involved with
doesn't make you uncomfortable in any way when I
way when I Rave about how wonderful I think your
Rave about how wonderful I think your book is because many people struggle
book is because many people struggle with price yeah I I definitely struggle
with price yeah I I definitely struggle with praise but because they put so much
with praise but because they put so much work into it it's exciting for me to
work into it it's exciting for me to know
know that someone can read it and feel
that someone can read it and feel um what I felt when when working on it
um what I felt when when working on it so there's a a sense of satisfaction
so there's a a sense of satisfaction that it's doing what I hoped it would do
that it's doing what I hoped it would do which would be resonate with someone I
which would be resonate with someone I did I purposely did want this book
did I purposely did want this book for someone to read it and feel it and
for someone to read it and feel it and want to take action that was in some
want to take action that was in some ways the purpose of the book from the
ways the purpose of the book from the beginning there was a version of the
beginning there was a version of the book about three years ago which was
book about three years ago which was beautifully eloquent but when I read it
beautifully eloquent but when I read it it didn't it didn't make me want to make
it didn't it didn't make me want to make art it was just it was more um
art it was just it was more um it didn't do what I I wanted I wanted
it didn't do what I I wanted I wanted someone to read the book and want to
someone to read the book and want to write stop reading to go out and make
write stop reading to go out and make something beautiful
something beautiful is there a contradiction in
is there a contradiction in one of the core messages
one of the core messages which is
which is you cannot make art good art if you're
you cannot make art good art if you're thinking about the outcome or you're
thinking about the outcome or you're thinking about what people will think
thinking about what people will think I'm and I'm saying this as an inquiry to
I'm and I'm saying this as an inquiry to to explore not to no absolutely not with
to explore not to no absolutely not with any other intention I'm with you I'm
any other intention I'm with you I'm with you because you just said to me
with you because you just said to me that
that I really want people to be able to yes
I really want people to be able to yes take this resonate with take action so
take this resonate with take action so is there a conflict there with those two
is there a conflict there with those two white ideas and there is an aspect of
white ideas and there is an aspect of this book where it's
this book where it's an instruction manual yeah
an instruction manual yeah and for an instruction manual to be
and for an instruction manual to be effective
effective the information in it wants to land if
the information in it wants to land if it was a book of poetry less so yeah
it was a book of poetry less so yeah and I'm hoping it's poetic you know it
and I'm hoping it's poetic you know it is honestly I like I like that it's
is honestly I like I like that it's poetic but ultimately there the reason I
poetic but ultimately there the reason I put the time in
put the time in for this to exist was in the same way
for this to exist was in the same way that when I go to the studio with
that when I go to the studio with artists to help them be their best
artists to help them be their best selves
selves and the idea of the book was to be an
and the idea of the book was to be an outgrowth of that where for the people I
outgrowth of that where for the people I don't get to work with in the studio
don't get to work with in the studio what's it like being in the studio what
what's it like being in the studio what are the things we talk about
are the things we talk about um what are the things that we get to
um what are the things that we get to that ends up in making the things that
that ends up in making the things that we make and that's what the book is so
we make and that's what the book is so if it if it didn't make you want to make
if it if it didn't make you want to make something I would deem it not a success
something I would deem it not a success for me yeah
for me yeah there's uh there are so many wonderful
there's uh there are so many wonderful sections in the book that are coming to
sections in the book that are coming to mind for me at the moment Rick one of
mind for me at the moment Rick one of them is about
them is about um
um make art that moves you yes
make art that moves you yes if it happens to move someone else
if it happens to move someone else okay great and if it doesn't that's okay
okay great and if it doesn't that's okay as well but first and foremost make the
as well but first and foremost make the art that moves you yes I want to
art that moves you yes I want to etch that into my heart into my soul
etch that into my heart into my soul because I
because I there's a there's this other Concepts in
there's a there's this other Concepts in the book you talk about the the pressure
the book you talk about the the pressure of a loyal audience yes a loyal audience
of a loyal audience yes a loyal audience can begin to feel like a prison yes and
can begin to feel like a prison yes and I feel that's um it's a really
I feel that's um it's a really interesting concept and I actually think
interesting concept and I actually think every aspect that we've been talking
every aspect that we've been talking about is relevant to every single person
about is relevant to every single person that loyal audience thing is
that loyal audience thing is you know the way you expand upon it in
you know the way you expand upon it in the book through the concepts through
the book through the concepts through the lens of the music industry you know
the lens of the music industry you know if you're a successful artist
if you're a successful artist and you've sold loads of copies of your
and you've sold loads of copies of your album
album there's a whole team of people around
there's a whole team of people around you wanting you to repeat the same this
you wanting you to repeat the same this is the formula hey just just give us
is the formula hey just just give us that again right and
that again right and you know I have experienced a lot of um
you know I have experienced a lot of um a lot of an inverted commas success over
a lot of an inverted commas success over the past few years with this podcast
the past few years with this podcast with my books
with my books and what I love about that sort of idea
and what I love about that sort of idea is something I took some real time off
is something I took some real time off over the summer spent it with my wife
over the summer spent it with my wife and kids who went away I was off social
and kids who went away I was off social media it was just wonderful
media it was just wonderful and I've really been reevaluating what
and I've really been reevaluating what it is I want what is it I'm here to do
it is I want what is it I'm here to do and I don't want to play it safe you
and I don't want to play it safe you don't I don't want to you know you could
don't I don't want to you know you could play it safe you could only take
play it safe you could only take interviews with people who you know your
interviews with people who you know your audience are going to like and that's
audience are going to like and that's the topics that they want but I think
the topics that they want but I think that's a mis-service to them and it's a
that's a mis-service to them and it's a Mis service to myself absolutely because
Mis service to myself absolutely because in the process of doing that you lose
in the process of doing that you lose who you are yes and then you end up
who you are yes and then you end up compensating for that with all kinds of
compensating for that with all kinds of behaviors that ends you up in the
behaviors that ends you up in the doctor's surgery asking for help right
doctor's surgery asking for help right yes
yes yes
yes yeah
have you seen artists fall into that trap
trap absolutely it happens all the time just
absolutely it happens all the time just the the expectation it works in many
the the expectation it works in many different ways but the idea that if
different ways but the idea that if there's a group of people who are
there's a group of people who are expecting a certain thing from you
and you you no longer feel like that artist you know you've you've moved
artist you know you've you've moved forward
forward and your concern is that the audience
and your concern is that the audience hasn't moved forward
hasn't moved forward it's a very uncomfortable place to be
it's a very uncomfortable place to be you can continue going through the
you can continue going through the motions in the old way
motions in the old way and thinking that that will please the
and thinking that that will please the audience and it may or may not
audience and it may or may not or you can be true to yourself and in
or you can be true to yourself and in that process you'll alienate some of
that process you'll alienate some of your audience and maybe get new get new
your audience and maybe get new get new fans it's it's the reality of the
fans it's it's the reality of the situation I had that experience with um
situation I had that experience with um the band Lincoln Park Lincoln Park were
the band Lincoln Park Lincoln Park were a very
aggressive um
I guess the they were on the end of the new medal there was like a new metal
new medal there was like a new metal phase of music and they were the last
phase of music and they were the last band in this wave of these new metal
band in this wave of these new metal bands
bands and like rap rock new metal
and I had seen that they had grown past it and it was time to make their next
it and it was time to make their next album and I suggested that they embraced
album and I suggested that they embraced what they loved and to make the most
what they loved and to make the most interesting thing for themselves and
interesting thing for themselves and they did and it completely divided the
they did and it completely divided the audience and it set them up to be able
audience and it set them up to be able to continue making interesting things
to continue making interesting things going forward
going forward and in some ways it's like
and in some ways it's like their early career and now there's this
their early career and now there's this new career that's much more uh there was
new career that's much more uh there was much more
it moved in more directions and it was more honest
more honest it was less formulaic yeah
it was less formulaic yeah and
and it was fine you know it worked out fine
it was fine you know it worked out fine but definitely in the moment
but definitely in the moment I can remember it happened to me when
I can remember it happened to me when you know I loved Radiohead when they put
you know I loved Radiohead when they put out kid a
out kid a my first instinct was that's not what I
my first instinct was that's not what I want from Radiohead yeah it happens and
want from Radiohead yeah it happens and now listening back is one of my favorite
now listening back is one of my favorite albums
albums that happens we don't always know so
that happens we don't always know so even even as consumers then offers
letting go of rigidity and expectation and being open to the unknown and open
and being open to the unknown and open to things I guess that's an important
to things I guess that's an important lesson for us as well because you know
lesson for us as well because you know that as a Creator yes but that was
that as a Creator yes but that was really powerful that as a fan of
really powerful that as a fan of radioheads
radioheads you fell into that trap as well
you fell into that trap as well absolutely absolutely yeah and sometimes
absolutely absolutely yeah and sometimes again if we
again if we if you're if you have expectations or
if you're if you have expectations or you see things in a certain context
you see things in a certain context when that's
when that's um upset
it's hard to know where you stand yeah and
yeah and I've grown to really like that feeling
I've grown to really like that feeling it doesn't always mean difference not
it doesn't always mean difference not always better it's often not that's the
always better it's often not that's the other thing it's like just because it's
other thing it's like just because it's different doesn't mean it's better
different doesn't mean it's better and let's assume that because it's
and let's assume that because it's different it's not worse we don't know
different it's not worse we don't know it's like it has to you have to
it's like it has to you have to experience it and see
experience it and see sometimes the shock of the news is very
sometimes the shock of the news is very exciting and it's like ah yeah but
exciting and it's like ah yeah but sometimes it's a
it's so fascinating I am I saw this thing on Kurt Cobain a couple
I saw this thing on Kurt Cobain a couple of weeks ago on YouTube
of weeks ago on YouTube and there's something I didn't know I
and there's something I didn't know I was a you know when Smells Like Teen
was a you know when Smells Like Teen Spirit came out I was what I don't know
Spirit came out I was what I don't know probably about what was that 91
probably about what was that 91 something like that it's probably 13 14
something like that it's probably 13 14 15 you know really into music you know
15 you know really into music you know in seminal album
very real very authentic and then in this video I saw a couple of
and then in this video I saw a couple of weeks ago they were showing footage of
weeks ago they were showing footage of uh I think Kurt Cobain saying that
uh I think Kurt Cobain saying that or I think was Dave Grohl talking about
or I think was Dave Grohl talking about Kurtz
Kurtz that he wanted Devon to be the biggest
that he wanted Devon to be the biggest band in the world wow that's interesting
band in the world wow that's interesting it was really interesting because I was
it was really interesting because I was also at the same time reading your book
also at the same time reading your book yeah
yeah and I thought well this is interesting I
and I thought well this is interesting I never would have expected that that
never would have expected that that certainly wasn't the I'm not saying
certainly wasn't the I'm not saying curated image that I got given by the
curated image that I got given by the record industry but it's kind of raw
record industry but it's kind of raw authentic grunge bands
authentic grunge bands oh Kurt command wanted Nirvana's be the
oh Kurt command wanted Nirvana's be the biggest band in the world and I felt a
biggest band in the world and I felt a slight disconnect there when I heard
slight disconnect there when I heard that especially going back to the idea
that especially going back to the idea that you can't make great art if you're
that you can't make great art if you're thinking about the outcome
thinking about the outcome I don't know if you have any thoughts on
I don't know if you have any thoughts on that at all yeah what's interesting is
with the things that I've worked on things that I make I I
things that I make I I the audience comes last I want to make
the audience comes last I want to make the best thing that I can
the best thing that I can and
and I hope a lot of people like it I don't
I hope a lot of people like it I don't make it with them in mind because that's
make it with them in mind because that's it I know it won't be as good yeah
it I know it won't be as good yeah but when they do it certainly feels good
but when they do it certainly feels good I'm I'm not uh against success yeah at
I'm I'm not uh against success yeah at all
all at all
at all and it's a it's amazing when it happens
and it's a it's amazing when it happens it's when that becomes the primary focus
it's when that becomes the primary focus in the making when you're changing the
in the making when you're changing the art
art for it to be successful and I don't get
for it to be successful and I don't get the sense and I don't know this
the sense and I don't know this maybe Kurt Cobain wanted to be the
maybe Kurt Cobain wanted to be the biggest band in the world but I'd be
biggest band in the world but I'd be surprised if he made creative choices to
that with that in mind and that's the key
with that in mind and that's the key distinction isn't it it really is it's
distinction isn't it it really is it's it's it's what's the intention in the
it's it's what's the intention in the making yeah
making yeah again I I'm I'm there's there's nothing
again I I'm I'm there's there's nothing wrong with wanting and having success
wrong with wanting and having success I'm only talking about when you're
I'm only talking about when you're making something where does your focus
making something where does your focus lie for it to be as good as it could be
lie for it to be as good as it could be because imagine that can work
because imagine that can work both ways like I can imagine and maybe
both ways like I can imagine and maybe you've worked with bands where actually
you've worked with bands where actually better changed the Arts in order for it
better changed the Arts in order for it to be commercially successful maybe
to be commercially successful maybe there was pressure from their record
there was pressure from their record industry from publicists from managers
industry from publicists from managers who knows what and maybe in the short
who knows what and maybe in the short term
term they thought that was a win
they thought that was a win but I just feel strongly that meeting
but I just feel strongly that meeting some long term
some long term you lose something much more significant
you lose something much more significant than anything you might gain with that
than anything you might gain with that commercial absolutely and
commercial absolutely and each in in that process of
each in in that process of whittling away at yourself
whittling away at yourself over time
over time there's there's less of you to put into
there's there's less of you to put into the next one there's less you know it's
the next one there's less you know it's like you you really do like you get to a
like you you really do like you get to a point of who am I
point of who am I if if that's happened enough times
I mean I feel like for much of my life I've tried to perform and be someone who
I've tried to perform and be someone who I am not yes in order to get validation
I am not yes in order to get validation and a lot of that has come down to the
and a lot of that has come down to the programs the the ideas I took on as a
programs the the ideas I took on as a child
child um which was that in order to be loved
um which was that in order to be loved or certainly my perception I should say
or certainly my perception I should say because it's it's my perception yes my
because it's it's my perception yes my perception was that
perception was that I'm loved when I get top marks when I
I'm loved when I get top marks when I get straight A's when I'm number one yes
get straight A's when I'm number one yes because my parents were always driving
because my parents were always driving me to do that but yes you know just to
me to do that but yes you know just to Briefly summarize my parents immigrants
Briefly summarize my parents immigrants to the UK from India facing a lot of
to the UK from India facing a lot of discrimination a lot of struggle they
discrimination a lot of struggle they just want the best for their child
just want the best for their child absolutely they they that was their way
absolutely they they that was their way of showing love hey you be the best you
of showing love hey you be the best you can be
can be actually you're not gonna have the
actually you're not gonna have the problems that we've had
problems that we've had so same reality but two versions of that
so same reality but two versions of that reality two perceptions and so why I
reality two perceptions and so why I feel and I'd be interested in your
feel and I'd be interested in your thoughts on the art form of podcasting
thoughts on the art form of podcasting because you've now written a book you've
because you've now written a book you've been involved with many albums I know
been involved with many albums I know and I've listened to many of the
and I've listened to many of the episodes you did with broken record uh
episodes you did with broken record uh wonderful conversations that you've had
wonderful conversations that you've had with artists
with artists so I'm interested to see your view in
so I'm interested to see your view in the podcasting art form I feel that this
the podcasting art form I feel that this podcast
podcast you know I keep getting stopped by
you know I keep getting stopped by people who are listening to the show and
people who are listening to the show and telling me beautiful uh stories of the
telling me beautiful uh stories of the impact it's had on them which is really
impact it's had on them which is really nice to hear absolutely it's certainly
nice to hear absolutely it's certainly not ego elevating in a way that it would
not ego elevating in a way that it would have been 10 years ago because I'm not
have been 10 years ago because I'm not that person anymore I don't need that
that person anymore I don't need that validation but
validation but I think it's helped me more than anyone
I think it's helped me more than anyone like these are the conversations that
like these are the conversations that um nourish me that fuel me that help me
um nourish me that fuel me that help me understand myself yes
understand myself yes and unfortunately we're not in my studio
and unfortunately we're not in my studio you would have met my my videographer
you would have met my my videographer Gareth who is a mega fan of yours
Gareth who is a mega fan of yours actually Rick
actually Rick um but something Gareth only joined the
um but something Gareth only joined the team maybe two or three years ago when
team maybe two or three years ago when we we brought video into the production
we we brought video into the production process
process and Gareth probably spends as much time
and Gareth probably spends as much time with me as anyone outside my family
with me as anyone outside my family because he's in with me for every
because he's in with me for every conversation he sees me beforehand he
conversation he sees me beforehand he sees me after so he sees me with all the
sees me after so he sees me with all the the filters off as well
the filters off as well and he's been wonderful at helping us
and he's been wonderful at helping us work
work that this idea of
that this idea of performance
performance versus authenticity this whole idea that
versus authenticity this whole idea that he would spot that I was like
he would spot that I was like subtly different when the mic's rolling
subtly different when the mic's rolling the when the mic's not rolling
the when the mic's not rolling and so we've in a variety of ways just
and so we've in a variety of ways just been conscious aware of can
been conscious aware of can I show up
I show up as the same person
as the same person same thought process same intonation in
same thought process same intonation in my voice everything
my voice everything as if the mic isn't there and it's been
as if the mic isn't there and it's been really quite
really quite um it's just been a phenomenal
um it's just been a phenomenal experience because
performance I used to think performance was a good
I used to think performance was a good thing growing up you know I'm going to
thing growing up you know I'm going to now perform on stage I was in bands for
now perform on stage I was in bands for years Rick I've been a front running
years Rick I've been a front running band's a very loud vivacious front man
band's a very loud vivacious front man but that was a personality I put on to
but that was a personality I put on to hide a deep insecurity I realized and
hide a deep insecurity I realized and actually
actually my my only goal with each conversation
my my only goal with each conversation is
is is it a raw authentic conversation were
is it a raw authentic conversation were you as raw and as honest and as
you as raw and as honest and as unaltered in your tone of voice
unaltered in your tone of voice as you could be
as you could be and then if you have any comments on
and then if you have any comments on that
that it sounds that sounds um
it sounds that sounds um it sounds good like it's it sounds like
it sounds good like it's it sounds like I I want to hear it's one of the
I I want to hear it's one of the beautiful things about
beautiful things about one that you're not a journalist
one of the things I've noticed is that there's a there's a different
there's a there's a different conversation that
conversation that you have with the journalists than you
you have with the journalists than you have with a person and again not nothing
have with a person and again not nothing against journalists at all but the
against journalists at all but the nature of a journalist is different the
nature of a journalist is different the way the way a journalist asks questions
way the way a journalist asks questions is different than having a conversation
is different than having a conversation with someone and I think the podcasting
with someone and I think the podcasting Revolution is about this the benefit of
Revolution is about this the benefit of these long-form essentially unedited
these long-form essentially unedited heart-to-heart conversations and it's
heart-to-heart conversations and it's something that we very rarely get to
something that we very rarely get to hear it's we we in in
hear it's we we in in um in normal media life we get Snippets
um in normal media life we get Snippets and sound bites
and sound bites and
and often the Snippets and sound bites are
often the Snippets and sound bites are taken out of context or chosen for some
taken out of context or chosen for some Sensational reason and we don't we don't
Sensational reason and we don't we don't really get to know people and this
really get to know people and this format is incredible because we're
format is incredible because we're spending hours together having a
spending hours together having a conversation and there'll be parts that
conversation and there'll be parts that are really interesting and parts that
are really interesting and parts that are less interesting and parts that are
are less interesting and parts that are energetic and parts that are not and
energetic and parts that are not and it's real it's this is a real
it's real it's this is a real conversation and
conversation and I think it's
I think it's more rooted in
more rooted in reality than
like a curated experience of life it's more real
when you were having these conversations for the
having these conversations for the broken record podcasts with
broken record podcasts with you know the Chili Peppers Springsteen
you know the Chili Peppers Springsteen Lenny Kravitz I'm halfway through that
Lenny Kravitz I'm halfway through that one which is a huge Lenny fan it's a
one which is a huge Lenny fan it's a really eye-opening for me
really eye-opening for me um
um how do you prepare for those
how do you prepare for those conversations
conversations not much yeah not much depends on who
not much yeah not much depends on who the artist is if it's an artist I know
the artist is if it's an artist I know I may think about it the morning of the
I may think about it the morning of the the podcast and make a list of possible
the podcast and make a list of possible questions just in case
it doesn't come up in the conversation like a backup plan
like a backup plan um if it's an artist I don't know I may
um if it's an artist I don't know I may listen to some music do a little
listen to some music do a little research I might even listen to another
research I might even listen to another interview just to get a sense of who
interview just to get a sense of who they are
they are so I'm not surprised when I when I'm
so I'm not surprised when I when I'm speaking to them
speaking to them um
um that's pretty much that's pretty much it
that's pretty much that's pretty much it I I go in pretty unprepared honestly
I I go in pretty unprepared honestly that's interesting I'm trying to think
that's interesting I'm trying to think in my head how would that
in my head how would that be different for when you're about to
be different for when you're about to work with a
work with a band or a solo artist on a new album
band or a solo artist on a new album different art forms
different art forms obviously in a podcast
obviously in a podcast you are required to
you are required to not not necessarily the leader
not not necessarily the leader conversation but
conversation but um be on Mike yes
um be on Mike yes like if you if you if you're working
like if you if you if you're working with a band you've never worked with
with a band you've never worked with before
before do you go in cold fresh yes less
do you go in cold fresh yes less prepared even less prepared absolutely
prepared even less prepared absolutely because you don't want what anything to
because you don't want what anything to be colored by a previous yeah I don't
be colored by a previous yeah I don't want to have I don't want to come in
want to have I don't want to come in with any baggage whatsoever I want to
with any baggage whatsoever I want to listen to what the artist tells me
listen to what the artist tells me and I want to
and I want to um whatever's interesting to me in the
um whatever's interesting to me in the conversation I'll ask questions to learn
conversation I'll ask questions to learn what what is helpful for me to know in
what what is helpful for me to know in that moment yeah
that moment yeah super interesting yeah
super interesting yeah and I have no uh agenda other than if
and I have no uh agenda other than if we're going to make something together
we're going to make something together that'd be as good as it could be
that'd be as good as it could be whatever it is so I I don't um
whatever it is so I I don't um like if there's an artist who I I know
like if there's an artist who I I know their music well I might have not not
their music well I might have not not even uh
even uh on purpose there may be in the back of
on purpose there may be in the back of my mind it would be fun to hear them
my mind it would be fun to hear them doing this you know in the back of my
doing this you know in the back of my mind some style of
mind some style of some style of project for them to do but
some style of project for them to do but I would never offer that to start with
I would never offer that to start with it would always be a let me hear what
it would always be a let me hear what you want to do or yeah and then I I you
you want to do or yeah and then I I you know there may be some idea that
know there may be some idea that again a backup plan if nothing else
again a backup plan if nothing else works there might be an idea but I would
works there might be an idea but I would never assume that any idea I had would
never assume that any idea I had would be uh the right idea
be uh the right idea what kind of process do you need to go
what kind of process do you need to go through or are there sets
through or are there sets practices that you engage in I don't
practices that you engage in I don't know artists rocking up a noon let's say
know artists rocking up a noon let's say in the two hours prior to that
in the two hours prior to that do you have to go through an intentional
do you have to go through an intentional process of
process of clearing out the noise so you are as
clearing out the noise so you are as fresh and as uncolored
fresh and as uncolored when you meet them when you hear their
when you meet them when you hear their music like I guess I'm thinking you're
music like I guess I'm thinking you're driving to a studio to meet someone yes
driving to a studio to meet someone yes and you have the radio playing so you've
and you have the radio playing so you've got other music that might be I might do
got other music that might be I might do that you might do that I might do that
that you might do that I might do that but you're not worried that that would
but you're not worried that that would um
um because when we're never the same person
because when we're never the same person are we we're not the same person on a
are we we're not the same person on a Mondays we're on a Tuesday right so
Mondays we're on a Tuesday right so everything you do yes or everything
everything you do yes or everything you've done in your entire life yes
you've done in your entire life yes kind of plays into who you are in that
kind of plays into who you are in that moment when you're listening absolutely
moment when you're listening absolutely and so how do you deal with that whether
and so how do you deal with that whether it's sunny or raining whether you know
it's sunny or raining whether you know yeah everything
yeah everything it just it just is it's not yeah it just
it just it just is it's not yeah it just is and also considering what you just
is and also considering what you just said that all of our Lives play into
said that all of our Lives play into this meeting
this meeting whatever happened in the last 10 minutes
whatever happened in the last 10 minutes isn't more important than everything
isn't more important than everything else so do you know what I mean in the
else so do you know what I mean in the context of
context of a lot has happened for us to get to this
a lot has happened for us to get to this moment and uh I'm just you know thankful
moment and uh I'm just you know thankful to be here
we mentioned ego in artists um
um I guess all of us have gotten elements
I guess all of us have gotten elements of ego that can wear its head at various
of ego that can wear its head at various times depending on what's going on
times depending on what's going on I would say both ego and insecurity like
I would say both ego and insecurity like both sides of it are always at play you
both sides of it are always at play you might see someone who demonstrates it
might see someone who demonstrates it through what seems like an egomaniac
through what seems like an egomaniac perspective yet underneath that is this
perspective yet underneath that is this very insecure person
very insecure person so it's it's always just like a sliding
so it's it's always just like a sliding scale between uh
shy and outgoing
and outgoing and uh
and uh wild ego tremendous insecurity
wild ego tremendous insecurity it's just like a seesaw
it's just like a seesaw yeah that's an interesting Once Upon
yeah that's an interesting Once Upon there
there what's it like for you
what's it like for you because you've said earlier on in this
because you've said earlier on in this conversation that
conversation that you're still basically just kind of
you're still basically just kind of doing your hobby and yes it's create
doing your hobby and yes it's create this wonderful life for you and sure
this wonderful life for you and sure it's technically work because there's
it's technically work because there's schedules and obligations things you
schedules and obligations things you have to fulfill but really it's just you
have to fulfill but really it's just you you know engaging in a hobby that you
you know engaging in a hobby that you love yes which I think is everyone's
love yes which I think is everyone's dream really to be able to do a job like
dream really to be able to do a job like that I certainly feel I've got a huge
that I certainly feel I've got a huge element of that in my life now yes
element of that in my life now yes um
um if you read the Press on yourself
if you read the Press on yourself it will consistently say things like
it will consistently say things like greatest record producer of all time you
greatest record producer of all time you know one of the most influential people
know one of the most influential people on the planet or whatever kinds of
on the planet or whatever kinds of things that Society has put on to you
things that Society has put on to you so how do you deal with that let's say
so how do you deal with that let's say you're about to go somewhere you're
you're about to go somewhere you're introduced
introduced like that it's it's intriguing for me
like that it's it's intriguing for me how do you what happens in your minds
how do you what happens in your minds when you hear that
when you hear that I I just think it's all like a funny
I I just think it's all like a funny story you know I I know that I know I'm
story you know I I know that I know I'm the same person I've always been
the same person I've always been it's fascinating
it's fascinating to know that that's the perception
to know that that's the perception it's fascinating that some of it may be
it's fascinating that some of it may be true some of it may not be true it's all
true some of it may not be true it's all just it's just interesting it's all
just it's just interesting it's all interesting yeah it's like wow can you
interesting yeah it's like wow can you believe that it obviously when someone
believe that it obviously when someone says something really good about me on
says something really good about me on the one hand it's like I'm glad they
the one hand it's like I'm glad they think that and that makes me
think that and that makes me uncomfortable both of those feelings
uncomfortable both of those feelings those feelings come up
those feelings come up um
um and it usually feels like I'd like that
and it usually feels like I'd like that to get out of the way so that we could
to get out of the way so that we could engage with whatever because it seems
engage with whatever because it seems like it's not important to me it's the
like it's not important to me it's the same the reason the book doesn't tell
same the reason the book doesn't tell any stories about my life or any of the
any stories about my life or any of the artists I work with it's a distraction
artists I work with it's a distraction from this from the material and my
from this from the material and my interest in life is in the material not
interest in life is in the material not in the stories about it or The
in the stories about it or The Sensational nature of it I like the um I
Sensational nature of it I like the um I like to close my eyes and listen to the
like to close my eyes and listen to the music I like to um engage in a
music I like to um engage in a conversation and
conversation and you know meet somebody as who they are
you know meet somebody as who they are it's a very interesting thing that some
it's a very interesting thing that some people the idea of this putting on a
people the idea of this putting on a performance or a facade
performance or a facade it's um
it's um it creates a real Distortion in the
it creates a real Distortion in the reality field it's like if you're in a
reality field it's like if you're in a relationship with someone
relationship with someone and
and uh you lie to them or they lie to you
uh you lie to them or they lie to you it's like are you even really together
it's like are you even really together do you know what I'm saying it's like
do you know what I'm saying it's like all we have is this shared understanding
all we have is this shared understanding of reality yeah
of reality yeah and
and if we can't talk about the same reality
if we can't talk about the same reality are we even do even do we know each
are we even do even do we know each other at all are we even in the same
other at all are we even in the same place you know it's like it's one of us
place you know it's like it's one of us is in a one of us is believing something
is in a one of us is believing something that the other person knows is not true
that the other person knows is not true and it's like we're not we're in two
and it's like we're not we're in two different realms
different realms yeah it's funny that a lot of people
yeah it's funny that a lot of people when they meet a long-term partner the
when they meet a long-term partner the first part or certainly the early parts
first part or certainly the early parts of the relationship is often
of the relationship is often facilitated by alcohol yeah if you think
facilitated by alcohol yeah if you think about what alcohol does to us and how it
about what alcohol does to us and how it changes us and our behaviors and our
changes us and our behaviors and our patterns and our you know those
patterns and our you know those insecurities can be dampened so it's
insecurities can be dampened so it's interesting that many people Bond
as a version of themselves who they they simply are not yes although it may be
simply are not yes although it may be because it lets down inhibitions I don't
because it lets down inhibitions I don't drink first of all but I will say
drink first of all but I will say because uh alcohol lowers inhibitions
because uh alcohol lowers inhibitions somebody might say something that they
somebody might say something that they would hold back that's true
would hold back that's true in polite company yeah
in polite company yeah nothing's too in the extremes hey it's
nothing's too in the extremes hey it's no it's hard to know it's hard to know
no it's hard to know it's hard to know hopefully also if someone meditates that
hopefully also if someone meditates that might be the case they might be real you
might be the case they might be real you know they might be real
know they might be real have you ever had a case where you felt
have you ever had a case where you felt that artists in your presence because of
that artists in your presence because of the the story around you
the the story around you feel unable to share their truth oh man
feel unable to share their truth oh man this you know Rick Rubin says the vocal
this you know Rick Rubin says the vocal needs changing there or Rick Rubin so
needs changing there or Rick Rubin so guitar isn't quite right there like have
guitar isn't quite right there like have you ever have you ever detected
you ever have you ever detected you know maybe some people Pleasers or
you know maybe some people Pleasers or people who felt quite insecure not
people who felt quite insecure not trusting themselves in your presence
trusting themselves in your presence because of this story albeit a
because of this story albeit a subjective story because art is
subjective story because art is subjective
subjective um have you ever detected that
um have you ever detected that it has probably happened the nature of
it has probably happened the nature of the process is it's a long process yeah
the process is it's a long process yeah and like maybe when we first met each
and like maybe when we first met each other we had thoughts about each other
other we had thoughts about each other whatever it is yes but now that we've
whatever it is yes but now that we've been talking for however long we've been
been talking for however long we've been talking we're just talking it's like
talking we're just talking it's like it's like that it's like whatever
it's like that it's like whatever uh ideas anyone comes in with get
uh ideas anyone comes in with get dispelled very quickly when you just
dispelled very quickly when you just have a conversation and it just becomes
have a conversation and it just becomes people talking yeah
people talking yeah this is one of the reasons I I do long
this is one of the reasons I I do long form yeah uh and
form yeah uh and so the interesting it really speaks to
so the interesting it really speaks to to some of the ideas in the book this
to some of the ideas in the book this idea that you make the art you want to
idea that you make the art you want to make that's in your hearts because
make that's in your hearts because as we're having this conversation Rick
as we're having this conversation Rick you know it's just over four and a half
you know it's just over four and a half years since this show started and uh
years since this show started and uh it's funny just before we started you
it's funny just before we started you said oh you got in early
said oh you got in early and I was like no when I started
and I was like no when I started podcasting I thought I was late yes uh I
podcasting I thought I was late yes uh I thought oh man this has been going for
thought oh man this has been going for years you know is there any room and you
years you know is there any room and you know I I I'd like to believe that
know I I I'd like to believe that there's always uh space for Quality
there's always uh space for Quality content absolutely you I have to believe
content absolutely you I have to believe that absolutely um otherwise what's the
that absolutely um otherwise what's the point absolutely
point absolutely um
um but at the time in the UK podcast
but at the time in the UK podcast industry what they what they would say
industry what they what they would say is that you cannot or you should not do
is that you cannot or you should not do a podcast more than 40 minutes long yeah
a podcast more than 40 minutes long yeah the average commute time is 40 minutes
the average commute time is 40 minutes that's how long they should be and my
that's how long they should be and my first few were at that length
first few were at that length I just something didn't
I just something didn't sit right with me and over the next few
sit right with me and over the next few months little by little they started
months little by little they started getting longer and longer and longer and
getting longer and longer and longer and as they got longer
as they got longer they got more and more popular which I
they got more and more popular which I found was really really interesting
found was really really interesting and
and there wasn't that many people on this
there wasn't that many people on this side of the Atlantic at that time doing
side of the Atlantic at that time doing long form you know there was you know
long form you know there was you know like Tim Ferriss in America and Rich
like Tim Ferriss in America and Rich Roll these guys were in great long form
Roll these guys were in great long form there but it wasn't really happening
there but it wasn't really happening here it started to change a little bit
here it started to change a little bit here but still there's a bias towards
here but still there's a bias towards shorter content
shorter content which I found interesting but
which I found interesting but I think this speaks I think to the
I think this speaks I think to the message you've tried to put out
message you've tried to put out throughout your career that make the art
throughout your career that make the art that moves you
that moves you how do you see the selling off the Arts
how do you see the selling off the Arts compared to the making of the Arts and
compared to the making of the Arts and it's something you said before Rick
it's something you said before Rick about when Snippets are taken
about when Snippets are taken to be sensationalist or whatever then
to be sensationalist or whatever then that can also be a conflict I I I really
that can also be a conflict I I I really struggle with that with this show
struggle with that with this show because
because the conversations are 90 minutes to two
the conversations are 90 minutes to two hours maybe two and a half hours
but then we will then take clips
take clips to put on platforms like Instagram to
to put on platforms like Instagram to raise awareness
raise awareness of hopefully a wonderful to our
of hopefully a wonderful to our conversation yes
conversation yes but it's almost in conflicts with what
but it's almost in conflicts with what we do because not really because that's
we do because not really because that's a commercial okay it's a different it's
a commercial okay it's a different it's a different it's different you're okay
a different it's different you're okay with that absolutely ethically you think
with that absolutely ethically you think that's okay absolutely because again
that's okay absolutely because again it's
it's if you want more this is where you're
if you want more this is where you're doing that in service of this you're
doing that in service of this you're doing the short form to draw attention
doing the short form to draw attention to the long form and the long form is
to the long form and the long form is the the thing that you are making that
the the thing that you are making that you're proud of
you're proud of you you
you you any way that you can spread the
any way that you can spread the information in a way that someone
information in a way that someone engages with the thing that you're doing
engages with the thing that you're doing that seems okay yeah
that seems okay yeah it's a different thing it's like same
it's a different thing it's like same like any thoughts about how to release a
like any thoughts about how to release a release a project how to put it into the
release a project how to put it into the world that starts after you've made it
world that starts after you've made it you make it first and it's just a whole
you make it first and it's just a whole new job that starts after you've made
new job that starts after you've made the art as good as it could be then okay
the art as good as it could be then okay how are we gonna turn people on to this
how are we gonna turn people on to this if you start thinking about that before
if you start thinking about that before it's gonna undermine the
it's gonna undermine the the DNA of it yeah it becomes a mark you
the DNA of it yeah it becomes a mark you know the the project becomes
know the the project becomes a marketing part of a marketing vehicle
a marketing part of a marketing vehicle yeah but if you make this beautiful
yeah but if you make this beautiful thing first and then okay it's done I've
thing first and then okay it's done I've signed off the Art's done now how do we
signed off the Art's done now how do we turn people on to it and then it's a
turn people on to it and then it's a whole new really creative adventure and
whole new really creative adventure and what is it a different skill set
what is it a different skill set completely different completely
completely different completely different yeah
different yeah you said you've been writing this book
you said you've been writing this book for seven years yeah for over seven
for seven years yeah for over seven years around seven years
years around seven years the process started seven years ago
the process started seven years ago I'm interested in your philosophy on
I'm interested in your philosophy on deadlines
deadlines did you have a deadline for this book I
did you have a deadline for this book I did not
did not so
so The Wider question is for me the wider
The Wider question is for me the wider question is
question is how do you know
when the art is finished
is finished and can be shared and released
and can be shared and released something I learned through the work
something I learned through the work working on the book
working on the book is this something I'm not not good at or
is this something I'm not not good at or at least wasn't good at prior to the
at least wasn't good at prior to the book
book I'm not a great finisher I'm a better
I'm not a great finisher I'm a better experimenter than a finisher so I can
experimenter than a finisher so I can Tinker away for a long time
Tinker away for a long time finishing is difficult I like I love
finishing is difficult I like I love when it's done so I don't have to think
when it's done so I don't have to think about it anymore I like that I like when
about it anymore I like that I like when it's done but getting to the point of
it's done but getting to the point of saying it's done
saying it's done that there are no more options is a you
that there are no more options is a you know closing options is not something
know closing options is not something that that's easy for me to do
that that's easy for me to do what I came to realize is that there are
what I came to realize is that there are different points in a project and in the
different points in a project and in the book we talk about a seed phase where
book we talk about a seed phase where you're collecting ideas
you're collecting ideas the experimentation phase where you're
the experimentation phase where you're taking those seeds and
taking those seeds and seeing what they can turn into then
seeing what they can turn into then there's a craft phase where after the
there's a craft phase where after the seed germinates now we bring
seed germinates now we bring our own filter into it to see if we can
our own filter into it to see if we can um how can we shape this thing that the
um how can we shape this thing that the Universe wants to give us
Universe wants to give us and then the Final Phase is editing and
and then the Final Phase is editing and all of the pieces of the finishing part
all of the pieces of the finishing part and in the past I looked at those all as
and in the past I looked at those all as part of this open-ended it can go on
part of this open-ended it can go on forever yeah and I came to realize the
forever yeah and I came to realize the only parts
only parts it's really the first especially the
it's really the first especially the first two
first two and sometimes some of the third step
and sometimes some of the third step where we need time but the finishing the
where we need time but the finishing the last piece of it
last piece of it you can set a deadline there and it
you can set a deadline there and it actually might be a good thing and it's
actually might be a good thing and it's not and again I only learned that
not and again I only learned that through working on the book and seeing
through working on the book and seeing where my method doesn't work as well as
where my method doesn't work as well as it could yeah
it could yeah that we've already done all the tests
that we've already done all the tests now it's purely
now it's purely there's no there really isn't more
there's no there really isn't more experimentation to do we've cracked the
experimentation to do we've cracked the code
code and once we've cracked the code
and once we've cracked the code setting a time to get it out is can be a
setting a time to get it out is can be a really really helpful thing yeah I found
really really helpful thing yeah I found that so interesting right something I've
that so interesting right something I've thought a lot about and I guess I have a
thought a lot about and I guess I have a slightly different perspective and I
slightly different perspective and I wonder
wonder there's no right or wrong also it's like
there's no right or wrong also it's like that I just wonder what you're you know
that I just wonder what you're you know you're someone who I I always have a
you're someone who I I always have a huge amount of respect for so I'm I'm
huge amount of respect for so I'm I'm you know fascinated by your opinion on
you know fascinated by your opinion on this
if I didn't have deadlines there's no way I would have written five
there's no way I would have written five books in the past five years yes no way
books in the past five years yes no way yes it just would not have happened yes
yes it just would not have happened yes and I have some author friends
and I have some author friends one very successful author in America
one very successful author in America who
who you know four or five years you know
you know four or five years you know he'd had a big hit book and you know it
he'd had a big hit book and you know it was changing people's lives and
was changing people's lives and four or five years he's I'm still
four or five years he's I'm still working on my boat still working I said
working on my boat still working I said hey honestly I think you need a deadline
hey honestly I think you need a deadline because
because I've heard some of you early stuff three
I've heard some of you early stuff three years ago it was great
years ago it was great um because I'm not quite I've still got
um because I'm not quite I've still got to work through the ideas and I get that
to work through the ideas and I get that I don't think there's a hard and fast
I don't think there's a hard and fast rule but my view has become and I guess
rule but my view has become and I guess we all tell ourselves the story that
we all tell ourselves the story that works that suits our life so maybe I'm
works that suits our life so maybe I'm telling myself a story here but
telling myself a story here but I just see a piece of art as a snapshot
I just see a piece of art as a snapshot in time yes
in time yes because that's all there ever can be so
because that's all there ever can be so when I finish a manuscript what I've
when I finish a manuscript what I've it's been through edits
it's been through edits tweet said I've gone away from I've come
tweet said I've gone away from I've come back to it and it's the date to go to
back to it and it's the date to go to print and which Publishers we cannot
print and which Publishers we cannot make any more changes even if you send
make any more changes even if you send us any some of those emails in a few
us any some of those emails in a few weeks like you've done before yes we're
weeks like you've done before yes we're done now yes
done now yes I've learned to embrace that again oh
I've learned to embrace that again oh that's part of the process it can only
that's part of the process it can only ever be as good as I can make it at the
ever be as good as I can make it at the point they press print yes because my
point they press print yes because my thoughts about these ideas don't just
thoughts about these ideas don't just suddenly stop yes so even when it's
suddenly stop yes so even when it's being printed
being printed I'm seeing things in the world I'm
I'm seeing things in the world I'm coming up with new ideas oh had I if I
coming up with new ideas oh had I if I could change that manuscript I would yes
could change that manuscript I would yes and so I I give a lot of authors come to
and so I I give a lot of authors come to me for advice and I say guys listen take
me for advice and I say guys listen take the pressure off yourself right it's a
the pressure off yourself right it's a snapshot in time true sorry interrupt if
snapshot in time true sorry interrupt if you are enjoying this content there's
you are enjoying this content there's loads more just like it on my channel so
loads more just like it on my channel so please do take a moment to press
please do take a moment to press subscribe hit the notification Bell and
subscribe hit the notification Bell and now back to the conversation
now back to the conversation so what's your perspective on that given
so what's your perspective on that given what you just said because it's it's
what you just said because it's it's similar but it's slightly different
similar but it's slightly different isn't it it is it's um I I do believe
isn't it it is it's um I I do believe that it works a snapshot in time I think
that it works a snapshot in time I think that's in some ways
that's in some ways without knowing that
without knowing that it's nearly impossible to put anything
it's nearly impossible to put anything out yeah so it is true that it's a
out yeah so it is true that it's a snapshot in time and it's all
snapshot in time and it's all essentially a diary
um I I think it really depends on what it
I I think it really depends on what it is that you're making like also if
is that you're making like also if you're let's say you're a newspaper
you're let's say you're a newspaper reporter and the newspaper comes out
reporter and the newspaper comes out every day
every day obviously the amount of time and
obviously the amount of time and attention that goes into each article is
attention that goes into each article is going to be different than if you're
going to be different than if you're writing the the one book you write a
writing the the one book you write a year and if you write one book every
year and if you write one book every five years the time and attention that
five years the time and attention that goes into that book is going to be
goes into that book is going to be different than the one that you write in
different than the one that you write in one year it just is the nature of time
one year it just is the nature of time and I don't think there's a a correct
and I don't think there's a a correct schedule for any of these things you
schedule for any of these things you know you're on the schedule of this is
know you're on the schedule of this is what I can put out once a year and this
what I can put out once a year and this is the schedule I like and there's
is the schedule I like and there's nothing wrong with that there's certain
nothing wrong with that there's certain art certain musicians who put out an
art certain musicians who put out an album every three to you know three or
album every three to you know three or four years and then there are some
four years and then there are some artists who put out an album every year
artists who put out an album every year and one's not right and one's not wrong
and one's not right and one's not wrong it's it's uh and there's also a habit
it's it's uh and there's also a habit involved I know um with the artists that
involved I know um with the artists that I work on I've worked with for a long
I work on I've worked with for a long time
time we tend to overwrite I I like this
we tend to overwrite I I like this process of like for example with the the
process of like for example with the the chili peppers if they're going to be uh
chili peppers if they're going to be uh 12 songs on an album we might record 30
12 songs on an album we might record 30 or 35 songs we might finish 35 songs to
or 35 songs we might finish 35 songs to have 12 on an album so every album we
have 12 on an album so every album we put out in some ways is a greatest hits
put out in some ways is a greatest hits of three albums put into one
of three albums put into one and
and that's just a habit I got into of uh and
that's just a habit I got into of uh and and not all artists will go you know not
and not all artists will go you know not all artists are up for that some artists
all artists are up for that some artists you know write eight songs and think
you know write eight songs and think okay maybe I need one more to be done
okay maybe I need one more to be done and that's all they're willing to do so
and that's all they're willing to do so it really depends on it depends on the
it really depends on it depends on the artist and again there's no right or
artist and again there's no right or wrong these are just different ways of
wrong these are just different ways of approaching it yeah there is there is I
approaching it yeah there is there is I do believe that the more you have to
do believe that the more you have to choose from
choose from chances are it'll be better I think
chances are it'll be better I think you know if there's who's to say that
you know if there's who's to say that the first five songs you write are going
the first five songs you write are going to be better than the last five of 20. I
to be better than the last five of 20. I don't know we don't know and we won't
don't know we don't know and we won't know that till we get to the 20. yeah
know that till we get to the 20. yeah because in the moment you think those
because in the moment you think those first five are the best five absolutely
first five are the best five absolutely you think oh man these are awesome yeah
you think oh man these are awesome yeah definitely going on the elbows yes yeah
definitely going on the elbows yes yeah yeah so it's hard to say it's really
yeah so it's hard to say it's really hard to say yeah I remember
hard to say yeah I remember um an interview Bono gave in the 90s
um an interview Bono gave in the 90s about the pop album and I think this
about the pop album and I think this illustrates the point beautifully for
illustrates the point beautifully for good or For Worse potentially
good or For Worse potentially but he said
but he said words to the effects off and you may
words to the effects off and you may know this better than than me being so
know this better than than me being so close to the music industry like being
close to the music industry like being in the industry but
in the industry but you know as a Avenue music fan I would
you know as a Avenue music fan I would consume CDs music read interviews by
consume CDs music read interviews by bootlegs everything so I would the bands
bootlegs everything so I would the bands I liked I knew everything about them
I liked I knew everything about them um
um Bono said that pop wasn't finished when
Bono said that pop wasn't finished when they put it out the problem was that
they put it out the problem was that they had a sold out stadium tour across
they had a sold out stadium tour across the world but the pop stadium tour
the world but the pop stadium tour so they just had to put the album out as
so they just had to put the album out as good as they can make it at that time
good as they can make it at that time yes and over the first 12 months on tour
yes and over the first 12 months on tour it says these songs evolved hugely to
it says these songs evolved hugely to the point I think where had they
the point I think where had they recorded it or had they finished the
recorded it or had they finished the album A year later it would have been a
album A year later it would have been a different album yes
different album yes and I think that it's funny how back
and I think that it's funny how back then I wasn't
then I wasn't um it wasn't a doctor I wasn't a podcast
um it wasn't a doctor I wasn't a podcast host I wasn't an author something about
host I wasn't an author something about that stuck in my brain from the 90s oh
that stuck in my brain from the 90s oh oh there was a deadline but it wasn't
oh there was a deadline but it wasn't quite ready and I think
quite ready and I think I have thought about that interview so
I have thought about that interview so much over the past years as I've gone
much over the past years as I've gone into this now public facing creative
into this now public facing creative career as a podcaster and as an author
career as a podcaster and as an author and it I think that has also helped me
and it I think that has also helped me realize or come to the conclusion that
realize or come to the conclusion that it's only Everest snapshot in time yes
it's only Everest snapshot in time yes I've heard a different version of that
I've heard a different version of that story
story that the album was actually better
that the album was actually better earlier oh wow and that they went past
earlier oh wow and that they went past it and that there were times that there
it and that there were times that there were like rough mixes of the album that
were like rough mixes of the album that were much better than the album I don't
were much better than the album I don't know if that's true but it's just
know if that's true but it's just interesting it's interesting even for
interesting it's interesting even for the Same album was it too early was it
the Same album was it too early was it too late who knows and I guess you
too late who knows and I guess you presumably will have been in that
presumably will have been in that position before was it was it better
position before was it was it better before we started fasting around and
before we started fasting around and chasing things was it better three weeks
chasing things was it better three weeks ago I'm really into this yeah and
ago I'm really into this yeah and uh I never assume that because we work
uh I never assume that because we work on it longer it's getting better
on it longer it's getting better longer does not make it better same with
longer does not make it better same with writing yeah you could sometimes go I
writing yeah you could sometimes go I have it oh my god I've messed it up now
have it oh my god I've messed it up now I've tried to elongate that points yes
I've tried to elongate that points yes and that's where collaboration comes in
and that's where collaboration comes in it's absolutely it's better before
it's absolutely it's better before absolutely and also we can even do it
absolutely and also we can even do it with ourselves because I always refer
with ourselves because I always refer back like um there'll be a moment when I
back like um there'll be a moment when I feel like we have something like early
feel like we have something like early in the process of like this this is the
in the process of like this this is the clue of what we're gonna
clue of what we're gonna you know like this the the seed that we
you know like this the the seed that we love the the demo the uh it might even
love the the demo the uh it might even be a snippet of just uh the way the feel
be a snippet of just uh the way the feel of a certain piece of music or it could
of a certain piece of music or it could be a tiny little fragment but this
be a tiny little fragment but this fragment is the reason we're gonna go on
fragment is the reason we're gonna go on this journey
this journey I always refer back to that fragment
I always refer back to that fragment later on and say are we as good as the
later on and say are we as good as the fragment are we better than the fragment
fragment are we better than the fragment are we worse than the fragment
are we worse than the fragment because if it's it's fine to be
because if it's it's fine to be different than the fragment but if it's
different than the fragment but if it's not at least as good as the fragment
not at least as good as the fragment it's all been a waste of time
it's all been a waste of time that must be really hot yeah well I'll
that must be really hot yeah well I'll give you a specific example the first
give you a specific example the first album I put out with Johnny Cash was
album I put out with Johnny Cash was essentially Johnny Cash in my living
essentially Johnny Cash in my living room playing me songs on a guitar that
room playing me songs on a guitar that was not the intention for that album the
was not the intention for that album the original intention was those were we
original intention was those were we were figuring out what songs to do
were figuring out what songs to do he was demonstrating the songs for me
he was demonstrating the songs for me and then we went to different Studios
and then we went to different Studios with different bands and tried recording
with different bands and tried recording the songs in different ways and none of
the songs in different ways and none of them were as interesting as what he
them were as interesting as what he played in the living room for me and
played in the living room for me and that's what ended up being the album for
that's what ended up being the album for many people because they went to the
many people because they went to the issue and expense of going into the
issue and expense of going into the studio with musicians the studio version
studio with musicians the studio version would be the album in our case it's like
would be the album in our case it's like what's the best of what we have well
what's the best of what we have well actually that original
actually that original homemade demo was more interesting than
homemade demo was more interesting than the produced version so we put out the
the produced version so we put out the homemade demo version
is it possible for that to be a perfect album
I don't know there are some that when I listen to them they feel perfect to me
listen to them they feel perfect to me and and when I say perfect like
and and when I say perfect like perfect and it's with all of its
perfect and it's with all of its imperfections like perfect for what it
imperfections like perfect for what it is you know for me when I listen to The
is you know for me when I listen to The White Album it feels like I wouldn't
White Album it feels like I wouldn't change anything you know I mean not that
change anything you know I mean not that I could but when I listened to it's like
I could but when I listened to it's like yeah that's how that goes is it the
yeah that's how that goes is it the Angelo album called Voodoo that I love I
Angelo album called Voodoo that I love I wish I made that album It's A Beautiful
wish I made that album It's A Beautiful album and that one when I listened to it
album and that one when I listened to it like
like there's nothing else like that it's so
there's nothing else like that it's so good yeah but uh love forever changes is
good yeah but uh love forever changes is one that um
one that um when I listen to It's it's a unique
when I listen to It's it's a unique one-of-a-kind album no one made an album
one-of-a-kind album no one made an album before it or after it like it and it's
before it or after it like it and it's magnificent
so interesting he said to you yeah it's only to me exactly you can only ever be
only to me exactly you can only ever be no there's and there's no there's no and
no there's and there's no there's no and I'm sure that there are many fans of you
I'm sure that there are many fans of you know their favorite artists made albums
know their favorite artists made albums that are that in their mind are perfect
that are that in their mind are perfect and it's great it's great it's only we
and it's great it's great it's only we all have our own stories you know it's
all have our own stories you know it's nothing nothing is true it's how we
nothing nothing is true it's how we perceive it
perceive it I've struggled with perfectionism a lot
I've struggled with perfectionism a lot of my life and um I've again I
of my life and um I've again I I keep bringing up how this podcast has
I keep bringing up how this podcast has changed my life one of the things that's
changed my life one of the things that's done that I haven't mentioned so far is
done that I haven't mentioned so far is it's helped me to embrace imperfection
it's helped me to embrace imperfection yes yes because on these long-form
yes yes because on these long-form conversations it's not about perfection
conversations it's not about perfection actually if there's a stumble if you
actually if there's a stumble if you don't quite get your words out the right
don't quite get your words out the right way if someone comes in with coffee it's
way if someone comes in with coffee it's I think that's the vibe you know it's
I think that's the vibe you know it's the
the I think I think podcasts are the modern
I think I think podcasts are the modern day campfire in a massive way I think
day campfire in a massive way I think that's why these long form conversations
that's why these long form conversations are taking off all around the world
are taking off all around the world people are feeling a deep sense of
people are feeling a deep sense of connection
connection I remember when I was at University
I remember when I was at University Edinburgh where I was at Medical School
Edinburgh where I was at Medical School I played in a band that's kind of
I played in a band that's kind of a huge Focus for me in Edinburgh and
a huge Focus for me in Edinburgh and we were in the studio near Edinburgh
we were in the studio near Edinburgh airport called split level and it was
airport called split level and it was really exciting for us because it was
really exciting for us because it was the first time we'd been in a recording
the first time we'd been in a recording studio you know so you know you're a
studio you know so you know you're a Young Band trying to make your way and
Young Band trying to make your way and oh this is a studio
oh this is a studio and again I look back now and think I
and again I look back now and think I would bring perform oh I mean it's in
would bring perform oh I mean it's in the studio so it's got to be a certain
the studio so it's got to be a certain way which again is I didn't realize at
way which again is I didn't realize at the time actually but it's taking you
the time actually but it's taking you out of authenticity and into a some sort
out of authenticity and into a some sort of
of performance aspect which I thought I
performance aspect which I thought I needed to do but I remember there was a
needed to do but I remember there was a there was a song I wrote called tell me
there was a song I wrote called tell me why and
why and we went in there all weekend I must have
we went in there all weekend I must have recorded a vocal track
recorded a vocal track 30 or 40 times
30 or 40 times oh no it's not quite right not quite
oh no it's not quite right not quite right and then with the engineer we went
right and then with the engineer we went through line by line picking the perfect
through line by line picking the perfect line and the finished version or that
line and the finished version or that iteration
iteration probably had 20 different takes in it
probably had 20 different takes in it each line perfect in its own right
each line perfect in its own right you play it afterwards sounded awful
you play it afterwards sounded awful and I was like
and I was like I don't get it I don't think there's 20
I don't get it I don't think there's 20 perfect lines in there but
perfect lines in there but the soul was missing there was just
the soul was missing there was just something so I think I didn't realize at
something so I think I didn't realize at the time I can articulate it now looking
the time I can articulate it now looking back
back but is that something you've seen happen
but is that something you've seen happen in the studio before is that something
in the studio before is that something you still experience absolutely and
you still experience absolutely and we'll you know we'll often do multiple
we'll you know we'll often do multiple vocal takes and put them together and
vocal takes and put them together and sometimes it's not about looking for
sometimes it's not about looking for Perfection it's looking for the thing
Perfection it's looking for the thing that interests you you know you're
that interests you you know you're you're listening for
you're listening for which lines sound interesting and which
which lines sound interesting and which ones work best together more than is
ones work best together more than is each one perfect
each one perfect but there are lots there are lots of
but there are lots there are lots of Records where um lots of recordings
Records where um lots of recordings where every line is perfect and they
where every line is perfect and they work you know if we listen to uh Earth
work you know if we listen to uh Earth Wind and Fire records are fairly perfect
Wind and Fire records are fairly perfect and they're magnificent yeah so again
and they're magnificent yeah so again there's no right or wrong that's not
there's no right or wrong that's not right or wrong no for sure
right or wrong no for sure I mean
I mean music has a way of just
music has a way of just doing something inside to people that I
doing something inside to people that I think very few other art forms can do
think very few other art forms can do um and I guess we all experience it
um and I guess we all experience it definitely I've always like I've always
definitely I've always like I've always thought I viscerally can feel certain
thought I viscerally can feel certain things in music I know you've worked
things in music I know you've worked with Chad Smith on many occasions of
with Chad Smith on many occasions of those Chili Peppers he's one of my
those Chili Peppers he's one of my favorite drummers
favorite drummers and
and for me when I hear
for me when I hear I've always felt this like Chad's
can play what is seemingly a 4-4 Rock beat
beat but I feel like he's talking to me yes
but I feel like he's talking to me yes through that any of the drum or drum
through that any of the drum or drum designer would play it would just sound
designer would play it would just sound like a very metronomic
like a very metronomic um static 4-4 rock beats yes but Chad
um static 4-4 rock beats yes but Chad seems to bring it alive as if those
seems to bring it alive as if those drums are talking to me like he's having
drums are talking to me like he's having a conversation with me and I remember
a conversation with me and I remember when I saw him alive in Manchester a few
when I saw him alive in Manchester a few years ago
years ago it was just incredible how
I don't know what is it with him what you think it is I mean
you think it is I mean it's unbelievable and it's true with the
it's unbelievable and it's true with the they're the musicians who who
they're the musicians who who just transcend their instruments he's
just transcend their instruments he's one of those people where
one of those people where it
it what he's what he's playing doesn't have
what he's what he's playing doesn't have to draw attention to itself
to draw attention to itself he can play the simplest thing
he can play the simplest thing yet you can feel it's different than the
yet you can feel it's different than the way anyone else plays it and it's and it
way anyone else plays it and it's and it it just lives in a different way it's
it just lives in a different way it's true with uh guitar players true with
true with uh guitar players true with musicians it's true with great bands
musicians it's true with great bands yeah what makes a band great usually is
yeah what makes a band great usually is the way each of the members
the way each of the members feel the music the differences between
feel the music the differences between each of the way the members feel the
each of the way the members feel the music like in
music like in um
in Metallica the drums push
push ahead of the guitars yeah in AC DC the
ahead of the guitars yeah in AC DC the drums lag behind the guitars and that's
drums lag behind the guitars and that's part of the sound of those bands it's
part of the sound of those bands it's it's the imperfection that's what makes
it's the imperfection that's what makes it sound that that the tension created
it sound that that the tension created by the way each musician interprets the
by the way each musician interprets the music and the different timings combined
music and the different timings combined together to make this sound that's
together to make this sound that's bigger than everybody playing it exactly
bigger than everybody playing it exactly precisely correctly yeah
precisely correctly yeah I think there's a lesson in that for all
I think there's a lesson in that for all of us in our relationships in our lives
of us in our relationships in our lives in so many ways Rick you've
in so many ways Rick you've been public about your struggles with
been public about your struggles with depression in the past
depression in the past what if you could
what if you could sort of talk us through what happens
one of the key elements of that for me
key elements of that for me is that you have said that
is that you have said that you feel more grounded now
you feel more grounded now than you did before you suffered from
than you did before you suffered from depression yes
depression yes before I suffered depression I felt more
before I suffered depression I felt more like um
this will sound funny I guess the best way to say it's like a superhuman
way to say it's like a superhuman feeling of like nothing
nothing um
um nothing could affect me
nothing could affect me and once something affected me
it's much more rude I would say now I'm more grounded and rooted in reality
more grounded and rooted in reality where before I might have been more um
yeah I can't think of the right word but just not
just not um
I wasn't able to empathize as much with other people's problems before because
other people's problems before because it didn't seem to me like it was
it didn't seem to me like it was possible like I didn't have an
possible like I didn't have an understanding of what difficulties felt
understanding of what difficulties felt like because it I was apart from it
like because it I was apart from it yeah
yeah and when I say that I still had
and when I say that I still had difficulties but but they were
difficulties but but they were manageable depression is different than
manageable depression is different than regular difficulties yeah you know
regular difficulties yeah you know there's a difference between
there's a difference between not being able to accomplish something
not being able to accomplish something you want and
you want and feeling hopeless they're two different
feeling hopeless they're two different things or feeling so bad and not
things or feeling so bad and not understanding why you know it doesn't
understanding why you know it doesn't the thing about depression that's so
the thing about depression that's so crippling is that it doesn't make sense
crippling is that it doesn't make sense uh it's not rooted in outward my
uh it's not rooted in outward my experience of it it wasn't rooted in
experience of it it wasn't rooted in what was going on in my world yeah
it was just something um triggered this emotional response
um triggered this emotional response that I'd never had before and I felt
that I'd never had before and I felt like I was dying and this wild
like I was dying and this wild experience and it lasted a long time
experience and it lasted a long time it was a comment wasn't it made by
it was a comment wasn't it made by someone it was just a comment and it was
someone it was just a comment and it was a comment that anyone else heard the
a comment that anyone else heard the comment in my position would have been
comment in my position would have been like okay we'll deal with it when we get
like okay we'll deal with it when we get back
back but for some reason it was um it touched
but for some reason it was um it touched a nerve of vulnerability that had never
a nerve of vulnerability that had never been touched in me before
was it that I guess as an adult you'd had huge
I guess as an adult you'd had huge amounts of success in music right from
amounts of success in music right from the get-go
or was it to do with I don't know elements of your childhood was it happy
elements of your childhood was it happy peaceful was it did it go without I
peaceful was it did it go without I think you've said once before that
think you've said once before that you hadn't really had to overcome many
you hadn't really had to overcome many obstacles so when that happened you had
obstacles so when that happened you had no tools to deal with it that's exactly
no tools to deal with it that's exactly right
right that's exactly what it was I I it was an
that's exactly what it was I I it was an idyllic childhood absolutely I was an
idyllic childhood absolutely I was an only child I was uh I would say I was
only child I was uh I would say I was spoiled although I didn't I wouldn't I
spoiled although I didn't I wouldn't I don't know that I necessarily acted
don't know that I necessarily acted spoiled but I didn't
spoiled but I didn't [Music]
[Music] um
um my wants were met in childhood
my wants were met in childhood and
and and then had great success before I even
and then had great success before I even knew that I was started a career
so I wasn't prepared for any type of um it's and I guess what it really had to
it's and I guess what it really had to do with the sense of support so I always
do with the sense of support so I always had the sense that my parents supported
had the sense that my parents supported me in anything that I wanted to do
me in anything that I wanted to do that's the way they raised me was like
that's the way they raised me was like you're great you could do anything and
you're great you could do anything and we will support you to the end of time
we will support you to the end of time and then
and then when I had success in music
when I had success in music the powers that be in music when you're
the powers that be in music when you're successful are very supportive so I had
successful are very supportive so I had this ramp of support and then when I
this ramp of support and then when I turned 33
turned 33 um someone questioned it for the first
um someone questioned it for the first time and again it was minor it worked
time and again it was minor it worked out it actually ended up in a better
out it actually ended up in a better place than it would have been had it not
place than it would have been had it not happened it was all fine but I just
happened it was all fine but I just didn't have the I didn't know how to
didn't have the I didn't know how to deal with it and without even knowing
deal with it and without even knowing what was happening because I didn't
what was happening because I didn't really know what Depression was I didn't
really know what Depression was I didn't know what a panic attack was I just knew
know what a panic attack was I just knew that I couldn't sleep I couldn't breathe
that I couldn't sleep I couldn't breathe and I thought I was dying it was wild
and I thought I was dying it was wild wild experience and did you at the time
wild experience and did you at the time know with your rational mind this is
know with your rational mind this is nothing no so it wasn't that you knew
nothing no so it wasn't that you knew cognitively this is nothing I shouldn't
cognitively this is nothing I shouldn't be ratting like this but I am you just
be ratting like this but I am you just didn't know did you feel out of control
didn't know did you feel out of control absolutely but but not in a way I felt
absolutely but but not in a way I felt out of control in a way that I didn't
out of control in a way that I didn't understand I didn't understand what was
understand I didn't understand what was happening yeah it none of it made sense
happening yeah it none of it made sense the way my body was reacting didn't make
the way my body was reacting didn't make sense
sense felt like I had no control of myself I
felt like I had no control of myself I had no control because again I can't say
had no control because again I can't say that what what the comment was anything
that what what the comment was anything that
that set me in the moment wasn't like that it
set me in the moment wasn't like that it was more of just a
was more of just a it was like a question mark but somehow
it was like a question mark but somehow it like
it like plant to deceited me or or like um
plant to deceited me or or like um it's like it let the air out of my
it's like it let the air out of my balloon that's what it felt like
balloon that's what it felt like do you still consider yourself someone
do you still consider yourself someone who suffers with depression I would say
who suffers with depression I would say I I can be moody I I don't I I'm not
I I can be moody I I don't I I'm not really felt true depression in some time
really felt true depression in some time although I've had
although I've had two big bouts of it in my life that
two big bouts of it in my life that first one and then it happened again
first one and then it happened again years later
years later um not as bad the second time as the
um not as bad the second time as the first time and not since a none since
first time and not since a none since changing my schedule being in the sun
changing my schedule being in the sun changing my diet all of those things
changing my diet all of those things really have helped oh wow so since
really have helped oh wow so since obviously we talked about it early on in
obviously we talked about it early on in this conversation since you were with
this conversation since you were with Phil since you lost your weight you had
Phil since you lost your weight you had the Vitality change your diet yes see
the Vitality change your diet yes see natural lights yes
natural lights yes then you haven't had any since then no I
then you haven't had any since then no I will say I still can be moody
will say I still can be moody for sure yeah but never like I don't I
for sure yeah but never like I don't I don't think that I crash the way I did
don't think that I crash the way I did you're well known for doing sauna and
you're well known for doing sauna and cold plunge yes uh I heard the podcast
cold plunge yes uh I heard the podcast you did with Tim Ferris a few years back
you did with Tim Ferris a few years back in the sauna was that in your house it
in the sauna was that in your house it was yeah I mean I
was yeah I mean I it was pretty awesome listening to it I
it was pretty awesome listening to it I was thinking how how is no one burning
was thinking how how is no one burning themselves here or it was really it was
themselves here or it was really it was difficult
difficult um it was difficult and he had it where
um it was difficult and he had it where we were holding the mics which was
we were holding the mics which was insane so we had the mics wrapped in
insane so we had the mics wrapped in towels to be able to hold them and every
towels to be able to hold them and every on occasion you'd touch the metal you
on occasion you'd touch the metal you know burn your hand I mean first of all
know burn your hand I mean first of all why did you elect to do that podcast
why did you elect to do that podcast with Tim it was my idea it was it was
with Tim it was my idea it was it was actually my condition for doing the
actually my condition for doing the podcast was I'll do it if we do it in
podcast was I'll do it if we do it in the sauna and the reason was
the sauna and the reason was um at that point in time I hadn't done
um at that point in time I hadn't done very many interviews ever yeah and I had
very many interviews ever yeah and I had never done a long form interview and I
never done a long form interview and I thought to take away any apprehensions
thought to take away any apprehensions that I have one of the things that we uh
that I have one of the things that we uh our friends uh my friend Gabby Reese
our friends uh my friend Gabby Reese yeah she calls it the truth box
yeah she calls it the truth box and the we noticed over time from doing
and the we noticed over time from doing sauna altogether that
sauna altogether that the conversations in the sauna get
the conversations in the sauna get really good and really real
really good and really real and I think any
and I think any um
any pre any protection you have up goes away in the sauna to protect
goes away in the sauna to protect yourself from the heat so you're so
yourself from the heat so you're so focused on the discomfort of the Heat
focused on the discomfort of the Heat that what you say is uh
that what you say is uh very pure
very pure yeah and I thought if I do this with you
yeah and I thought if I do this with you and I met him but I didn't really know
and I met him but I didn't really know him very well then I said let's do it in
him very well then I said let's do it in the sauna because I know the
the sauna because I know the conversation will be really real yeah so
conversation will be really real yeah so let's do that
let's do that yeah that's awesome yeah I mean you
yeah that's awesome yeah I mean you should have said we could have turned
should have said we could have turned the air conditioning off at the start
the air conditioning off at the start it's pretty cool
um and why do you use sauna and coal plunge oh like when did you bring that
plunge oh like when did you bring that into your life why did you bring it and
into your life why did you bring it and then I guess what kind of impact has it
then I guess what kind of impact has it had
had um started in
um started in probably could be as much as 10 years
probably could be as much as 10 years ago now after you suffer with depression
ago now after you suffer with depression for the first time much after
for the first time much after long after but was this part of the
long after but was this part of the process of you on this health Journey
process of you on this health Journey trying to use this is after I started
trying to use this is after I started training yeah
training yeah um I lost the weight I started training
um I lost the weight I started training and got invited into a sauna with some
and got invited into a sauna with some sports friends of mine and they we would
sports friends of mine and they we would go in the sauna and it's in the middle
go in the sauna and it's in the middle of winter and jump into the ocean after
of winter and jump into the ocean after and I remember being terrified of the
and I remember being terrified of the whole thing and doing it and absolutely
whole thing and doing it and absolutely loving it from the very first time I did
loving it from the very first time I did it and found that through these repeated
it and found that through these repeated you know four rounds of
you know four rounds of very hot sauna and very cold
um it hadn't it had a euphoric effect I would say I never
a euphoric effect I would say I never felt better in my life
than at the end of a session of sauna and ice
and ice best mood I've ever been in my life and
best mood I've ever been in my life and also if there were any if I had any
also if there were any if I had any concerns in life anything I was worried
concerns in life anything I was worried about
about that all went away in the sauna for sure
that all went away in the sauna for sure that nothing after once you get into a
that nothing after once you get into a practice of getting into an ice bath on
practice of getting into an ice bath on a regular basis
a regular basis nothing else in your life will be a
nothing else in your life will be a challenge
challenge yes it's super interesting I'm
yes it's super interesting I'm you know I I hear about what happens at
you know I I hear about what happens at LED's pool yeah and you know I'd love to
LED's pool yeah and you know I'd love to chat to Lad at some point or Gabby so
chat to Lad at some point or Gabby so that'd be great so fascinating what
that'd be great so fascinating what they're doing something that
they're doing something that actually it as we record this it's not
actually it as we record this it's not it's not been released publicly yet
it's not been released publicly yet um there's a shop called Erwin liquor
um there's a shop called Erwin liquor um move now guy yeah
um move now guy yeah he has got a new breath work uh course I
he has got a new breath work uh course I think it's called breath hold work
think it's called breath hold work meditation
meditation and he was running them as the live
and he was running them as the live four-week courses
four-week courses um and he did about four or five of
um and he did about four or five of those over a few months feedback was
those over a few months feedback was incredible I did one of them and he's
incredible I did one of them and he's going to launch it online fantastic
going to launch it online fantastic shortly
shortly it is
it is unbelievable now I've done loads of
unbelievable now I've done loads of breath work stuff in the past
breath work stuff in the past what
what is different about this like just to
is different about this like just to just to give a Top Line overview
I went in you meant to do two sessions a week for four weeks with with everyone
week for four weeks with with everyone on
on and first session he asks you to take a
and first session he asks you to take a you know without any warning take it you
you know without any warning take it you know full breath in and hold your breath
know full breath in and hold your breath and I think I could I think I was
and I think I could I think I was actually in Sweden for the first session
actually in Sweden for the first session I was there uh one of my books had just
I was there uh one of my books had just come out there I just landed got to the
come out there I just landed got to the hotel I could just do a minute for
hotel I could just do a minute for breath hold
breath hold four weeks later and I didn't even do
four weeks later and I didn't even do both sessions twice a week
both sessions twice a week I held my breath for four minutes 30.
I held my breath for four minutes 30. incredible in four weeks incredible and
incredible in four weeks incredible and that was an absolutely not a
that was an absolutely not a physiological adaptation it was all the
physiological adaptation it was all the Mind wow and and what why I feel this
Mind wow and and what why I feel this practice is so phenomenal a bit like
practice is so phenomenal a bit like what you just said about the colds yes
what you just said about the colds yes basically you get to the point where
basically you get to the point where your body is screaming for you to take a
your body is screaming for you to take a breath yes which is one of the most
breath yes which is one of the most Primal
Primal um
um you know
you know signals for survival yes in that moment
signals for survival yes in that moment he helps you learn how to quieten your
he helps you learn how to quieten your minds so it's not about holding on it's
minds so it's not about holding on it's actually
actually can you get still can you get quiet can
can you get still can you get quiet can you almost get into a deep meditative
you almost get into a deep meditative State and then you think you need to be
State and then you think you need to be you've still got another minutes ago a
you've still got another minutes ago a minute and a half
minute and a half and
and I do many things to my well-being but I
I do many things to my well-being but I reckon you would love this it sounds
reckon you would love this it sounds fantastic it's and I having done loads
fantastic it's and I having done loads of breath work courses this is very
of breath work courses this is very different
different and it's been life-changing like I feel
and it's been life-changing like I feel if you can control your mind when your
if you can control your mind when your body's screaming you feel empowered you
body's screaming you feel empowered you feel powered anyway you think oh the
feel powered anyway you think oh the Train's there okay oh they're shouting
Train's there okay oh they're shouting at me okay no worries yeah so would you
at me okay no worries yeah so would you say the cause an element of that
say the cause an element of that absolutely mental toughness mental
absolutely mental toughness mental toughness and being able to stay in it
toughness and being able to stay in it is purely mental it's not has nothing to
is purely mental it's not has nothing to do with the physical it's all mental
do with the physical it's all mental it's all mental yeah
it's all mental yeah out of all the things that you've done
out of all the things that you've done for your health and well-being over the
for your health and well-being over the years
years which are the most important ones would
which are the most important ones would you say for you
you say for you I would say
I would say um
um eating animal protein
eating animal protein sleeping on a cold bed
sleeping on a cold bed so that's either the sleep aid or the
so that's either the sleep aid or the chili pad either either one of those or
chili pad either either one of those or the uler those are the choices
the uler those are the choices and Sona nice and I suppose uh whatever
and Sona nice and I suppose uh whatever physical practice I'm doing and
physical practice I'm doing and meditation that's another key
meditation that's another key yeah the basics which people have known
yeah the basics which people have known for years that's right that's it that's
for years that's right that's it that's it
it yeah and I think actually the diet the
yeah and I think actually the diet the reason I I say diet first
reason I I say diet first is
if you exercise and don't diet it seems to mean practically nothing
to mean practically nothing and if you diet and add exercise it it
and if you diet and add exercise it it multiplies it's like it changes
multiplies it's like it changes everything so I would say
everything so I would say it's 90 it's 90 diet 10 exercise but if
it's 90 it's 90 diet 10 exercise but if you do the 10 exercise you get 50 of the
you do the 10 exercise you get 50 of the bonus you know it's like it's all out of
bonus you know it's like it's all out of the numbers don't make sense yeah the
the numbers don't make sense yeah the numbers don't make sense it's non-linear
numbers don't make sense it's non-linear isn't it no no but I would say diet
isn't it no no but I would say diet first then exercise and then the the
first then exercise and then the the extra bonus things but sleeping on colds
extra bonus things but sleeping on colds is really profound really profound have
is really profound really profound have you experimented at all I have actually
you experimented at all I have actually I've tried eight sleep once as well I
I've tried eight sleep once as well I thought it was brilliant yeah
thought it was brilliant yeah um when you have that cold then and what
um when you have that cold then and what I love that you can alter for your
I love that you can alter for your partner as well so absolutely different
partner as well so absolutely different temperature and you can sleep with a
temperature and you can sleep with a blanket and be cozy yeah and still keep
blanket and be cozy yeah and still keep your body cool
your body cool um I sleep much deeper on a cold bed and
um I sleep much deeper on a cold bed and I like that bring anything with you when
I like that bring anything with you when you're traveling to try and replicate
you're traveling to try and replicate that no well I in the different places
that no well I in the different places in the world I have houses in different
in the world I have houses in different places and I I have cold sleeping in all
places and I I have cold sleeping in all the places that I live but on this trip
the places that I live but on this trip I don't have it and it's and my sleep is
I don't have it and it's and my sleep is falling apart there you go yeah to the
falling apart there you go yeah to the point where you might bring something
point where you might bring something with you next time I don't know it's big
with you next time I don't know it's big to bring it's like you have to figure
to bring it's like you have to figure out a way yeah and figure out a way
out a way yeah and figure out a way I'm hoping it gets to the point where
I'm hoping it gets to the point where it's popular enough where they'll just
it's popular enough where they'll just be everywhere yeah I'm sure it will soon
be everywhere yeah I'm sure it will soon yeah
yeah um be nice like a biohacking hotel that
um be nice like a biohacking hotel that has only red lights at night and oh man
has only red lights at night and oh man the the lights in hotels at nights the
the the lights in hotels at nights the vein of many people's existence the
vein of many people's existence the bright lights
bright lights could I ask you a bit of advice sure
could I ask you a bit of advice sure almost feel a bit cheeky asking but
almost feel a bit cheeky asking but I guess it's not in private it's what
I guess it's not in private it's what microphones are running that's fine
you know if someone had told me when I was 14 I'd be
was 14 I'd be sitting face to face with you the the
sitting face to face with you the the the teenage wrong and probably wouldn't
the teenage wrong and probably wouldn't have believed it and over the past few
have believed it and over the past few years I've realized that
years I've realized that um
um I wrote a section in my last one about
I wrote a section in my last one about worshiping the wrong Heroes that this
worshiping the wrong Heroes that this idea of hero worship is fundamentally
idea of hero worship is fundamentally flawed
flawed it's an idea I'm kind of really working
it's an idea I'm kind of really working on at the moment maybe for my next book
on at the moment maybe for my next book I think
I think it's problematic because we only see one
it's problematic because we only see one element of these so-called heroes yes
element of these so-called heroes yes you know we you know we think we want to
you know we you know we think we want to play golf like Tiger Woods but if you
play golf like Tiger Woods but if you want to play golf like tiger you also
want to play golf like tiger you also probably have to have the broken
probably have to have the broken marriage the painkill the rediction the
marriage the painkill the rediction the public humiliation or all all those
public humiliation or all all those things come with it not just the little
things come with it not just the little bit you want
bit you want so but I've I've sort of let go of a lot
so but I've I've sort of let go of a lot of that over the past few years and
of that over the past few years and having met a lot of high profile and
having met a lot of high profile and famous people and realizing that
famous people and realizing that everyone's got the same issues
everyone's got the same issues it was a human yes it kind of helps you
it was a human yes it kind of helps you with that and absolutely and stop and
with that and absolutely and stop and stop elevating people but I for much of
stop elevating people but I for much of my life wants to be a musician
my life wants to be a musician so
so um I think even at third year at Uni I
um I think even at third year at Uni I took a year out to immunology and I came
took a year out to immunology and I came back at Christmas I told my mum and dad
back at Christmas I told my mum and dad I'm
I'm I said I'm quitting I'm going on the
I said I'm quitting I'm going on the road with the bands and I don't think I
road with the bands and I don't think I really meant it I think I was trying to
really meant it I think I was trying to get a reaction and oh boy I got a
get a reaction and oh boy I got a reaction certainly from my dad's yeah
reaction certainly from my dad's yeah and my mum managed to keep the peace and
and my mum managed to keep the peace and said why don't you just finish your
said why don't you just finish your Immunology degree then you can go you
Immunology degree then you can go you know she was just trying to store me
know she was just trying to store me and um huge part of my life in Edinburgh
and um huge part of my life in Edinburgh was playing in bands and writing
was playing in bands and writing and you know I remember when I left that
and you know I remember when I left that number I came back to Manchester or I
number I came back to Manchester or I recorded my like a solo EP and you know
recorded my like a solo EP and you know there's a great radio station called Xfm
there's a great radio station called Xfm one of the singles ended up being single
one of the singles ended up being single of the week so you know low grade
of the week so you know low grade elements of you know in inverse Commons
elements of you know in inverse Commons success but no record deal nothing like
success but no record deal nothing like that and
that and um I actually don't believe that would
um I actually don't believe that would have been the right career for me anyway
have been the right career for me anyway I feel that I have
I feel that I have found my true calling over the last six
found my true calling over the last six or seven years you know pretty much
or seven years you know pretty much since my dad died and I've looked at my
since my dad died and I've looked at my life and now what I do in medicine with
life and now what I do in medicine with my podcast with my books I feel is
my podcast with my books I feel is form of Art and creativity that allows
form of Art and creativity that allows me to use
me to use the skills and practices I've learned to
the skills and practices I've learned to share with people which helps me and
share with people which helps me and also helps them
but over the last few years Rick it's been niggling away at me that
it's been niggling away at me that there's a part of me
there's a part of me which is a songwriter yes that is
which is a songwriter yes that is unexpressed yes
unexpressed yes and I think it's really become clearer
and I think it's really become clearer over the last two weeks
over the last two weeks because as part of my research for this
because as part of my research for this conversation
conversation I've been delving into albums I haven't
I've been delving into albums I haven't heard in years blood sugar Sex Magic
heard in years blood sugar Sex Magic wildflowers uh it's just been such a joy
wildflowers uh it's just been such a joy and I'm feeling
and I'm feeling that visceral connection again
that visceral connection again to music but the problem Rick in my
to music but the problem Rick in my heads and I guess I'm asking you as an
heads and I guess I'm asking you as an invisible now a visible life coach
invisible now a visible life coach [Music]
[Music] I feel I've changed since I used to
I feel I've changed since I used to write songs I think when I used to write
write songs I think when I used to write songs I was very derivative I think I
songs I was very derivative I think I was trying to be someone you know when I
was trying to be someone you know when I was 13 or 14 I wanted to be Jon Bon Jovi
was 13 or 14 I wanted to be Jon Bon Jovi that's all I wanted to be like I
that's all I wanted to be like I literally wanted to be him and I think
literally wanted to be him and I think some of my intonations yeah
some of my intonations yeah you know like many British people we put
you know like many British people we put on an American accent when singing
on an American accent when singing because I don't know why is it softer is
because I don't know why is it softer is it less harsh
it less harsh and now one because I recently have been
and now one because I recently have been picking up the guitar again I've got
picking up the guitar again I've got some verses going I've got some things
some verses going I've got some things going and I'm like that's pretty good
going and I'm like that's pretty good and
and but I I feel that
but I I feel that I've got old patternings
I've got old patternings in my voice that I don't feel
in my voice that I don't feel authentically me
authentically me so either will struggle
so either will struggle through my podcasting and uh literary
through my podcasting and uh literary career yes I feel particularly my last
career yes I feel particularly my last book I found my voice and who I am yes
book I found my voice and who I am yes but I don't feel
but I don't feel and again I'm probably being harsh on
and again I'm probably being harsh on myself but I don't feel that my singing
myself but I don't feel that my singing voice yes is in the same place
voice yes is in the same place if an artist came to you with this sort
if an artist came to you with this sort of
of quandary uh what might you say to them I
quandary uh what might you say to them I would say if you found your writing
would say if you found your writing voice on your fifth book
voice on your fifth book we can learn from that
we can learn from that so it sounds like by the time you get to
so it sounds like by the time you get to your fifth album you'll find your voice
your fifth album you'll find your voice vocally
vocally and it's not going to happen without
and it's not going to happen without doing the work so so
doing the work so so uh I would suggest that you write and
uh I would suggest that you write and record as much as you can all of the
record as much as you can all of the time and instead of thinking of it as
time and instead of thinking of it as um think of it as a hobby just think my
um think of it as a hobby just think my hobby is I'm going to write and record
hobby is I'm going to write and record songs and then there'll come a time
songs and then there'll come a time through that process where you look back
through that process where you look back and go hmm
and go hmm I think this batch is ready to share
I think this batch is ready to share with people
with people look luckily you're not um
look luckily you're not um you're not obligated to share anything
you're not obligated to share anything because you're sharing the podcast and
because you're sharing the podcast and you're sharing the books and you're
you're sharing the books and you're sharing your medical practice so it
sharing your medical practice so it truly can be a personal hobby until it
truly can be a personal hobby until it until it grows into something more than
until it grows into something more than that which it will naturally do by
that which it will naturally do by itself but it won't happen without doing
itself but it won't happen without doing the work and it's only going to be the
the work and it's only going to be the work that's going to make it happen
work that's going to make it happen yeah
yeah and do you think that element we were
and do you think that element we were talking about before about
talking about before about Beware of the assumption that the way
Beware of the assumption that the way you work is the best way simply because
you work is the best way simply because it's the way you've done it I'm thinking
it's the way you've done it I'm thinking like should I again is this
like should I again is this procrastination should I get a different
procrastination should I get a different guitar
guitar which won't maybe lead me to those old
which won't maybe lead me to those old patterns should I instead of the usual
patterns should I instead of the usual chords I would use to songwrite do I put
chords I would use to songwrite do I put a capo halfway up and actually try and
a capo halfway up and actually try and shake things up try it all try all that
shake things up try it all try all that try writing a song on the piano try
try writing a song on the piano try doing all those things yeah see what
doing all those things yeah see what happens try uh go go on a service that
happens try uh go go on a service that has Beats and you know go on Soundcloud
has Beats and you know go on Soundcloud and find a beat you like and write to
and find a beat you like and write to that beat
that beat so totally Shake It Up completely try
so totally Shake It Up completely try things see surprise yourself
things see surprise yourself with
with what works for you
I just I love that advice and um
I love that advice and um it said it's advice that I
it said it's advice that I literally will
literally will put in surprises immediately beautiful
put in surprises immediately beautiful and um
and um you'll definitely learn through the pro
you'll definitely learn through the pro you know you'll learn both through
you know you'll learn both through successful and failed experiments like
successful and failed experiments like each one will get you closer to where
each one will get you closer to where you're going and it's it's impossible to
you're going and it's it's impossible to know until you try as many things as you
know until you try as many things as you can try and you'll be surprised and
can try and you'll be surprised and you'll say oh these these three things
you'll say oh these these three things are all kind of good I've never done a
are all kind of good I've never done a mise way before or the old way is still
mise way before or the old way is still the best or you won't know there's no
the best or you won't know there's no way to know
way to know um and you also find out what's most fun
um and you also find out what's most fun like where where you
like where where you what part of the discovery process is
what part of the discovery process is most exciting to you and that might work
most exciting to you and that might work its way into it sounding a particular
its way into it sounding a particular way if you're engaging in it in a way
way if you're engaging in it in a way that um
that um spark something new in you out of the
spark something new in you out of the excitement of the way that it's
excitement of the way that it's happening
so much to think about it's it's really something that
something that I just can't shake at the moment and I
I just can't shake at the moment and I feel I don't regret not playing as much
feel I don't regret not playing as much for the last six or seven years yes I've
for the last six or seven years yes I've still got with my covers band in chamony
still got with my covers band in chamony in France it will go and play it two or
in France it will go and play it two or three gigs every winter and yeah but
three gigs every winter and yeah but that covers you know and that's nothing
that covers you know and that's nothing wrong with that people are having a good
wrong with that people are having a good time we enjoy playing but I do feel do
time we enjoy playing but I do feel do you feel there's a limit to creativity
you feel there's a limit to creativity um
um I I what I mean by that is I have told
I I what I mean by that is I have told myself over the past few years
myself over the past few years Oh wrong and you're using up your
Oh wrong and you're using up your Creative Energy and I know this as I say
Creative Energy and I know this as I say it so I I guess I'm bringing it out into
it so I I guess I'm bringing it out into the open to yeah I'm in my books on my
the open to yeah I'm in my books on my podcast so I don't have much left for
podcast so I don't have much left for songwriting no no
songwriting no no you may not you may run out of energy
you may not you may run out of energy but not creativity
but not creativity you know you may be too tired but that's
you know you may be too tired but that's all not not the in some ways the more
all not not the in some ways the more you engage in in different creative
you engage in in different creative practices the better they all get they
practices the better they all get they all get better
all get better the thing that Taps out first is Just
the thing that Taps out first is Just Energy you run out of steam but not not
Energy you run out of steam but not not out of ideas or creative spirit that
out of ideas or creative spirit that that's uh it's Eternal and forever
I feel very honored that I've had uh some visible life coach advice from you
some visible life coach advice from you about that I will be sure to let you
about that I will be sure to let you know how it goes yeah I'm excited to
know how it goes yeah I'm excited to hear
hear um
um I've said it enough times but I say it
I've said it enough times but I say it again Rick this this is It's just
again Rick this this is It's just wonderful this book I I treasure it so
wonderful this book I I treasure it so so much I've got this early copy on a
so much I've got this early copy on a bound
bound you know prints out papers all my
you know prints out papers all my scribbles in but the actual copy is just
scribbles in but the actual copy is just beautiful
beautiful um you've got no quotes on the book no
um you've got no quotes on the book no and uh you were you were saying just
and uh you were you were saying just before we started recording that that
before we started recording that that was intentional it was intentional for
was intentional it was intentional for me and I was happy that the Publishers
me and I was happy that the Publishers went along with my wish
went along with my wish um most books have quotes on them and
um most books have quotes on them and quotes are uh
quotes are uh a marketing tool
a marketing tool and it seems like if you put uh
and it seems like if you put uh if you put marketing information on on
if you put marketing information on on something that makes it a product and I
something that makes it a product and I don't really think of it as a product so
don't really think of it as a product so yeah that was the thought
many different chapters in this book are there any that come to mind as ones
are there any that come to mind as ones that
that yeah that's the one that's the one that
yeah that's the one that's the one that really helped me or helped you you know
really helped me or helped you you know no I'm I'm continually surprised by it
no I'm I'm continually surprised by it as I've had to read it to give you know
as I've had to read it to give you know either to read it to understand the
either to read it to understand the editor's notes or read it to give my
editor's notes or read it to give my notes of things that I think can be
notes of things that I think can be improved
improved I'm surprised by so much of the
I'm surprised by so much of the information in the book and it's not um
information in the book and it's not um it doesn't live in the front of my mind
it doesn't live in the front of my mind so it's
so it's uh it came through
uh it came through a lot of
a lot of um searching and so much of the
um searching and so much of the information is intuitive
information is intuitive yet when I read it it's like oh yeah it
yet when I read it it's like oh yeah it is like that you know like that's that's
is like that you know like that's that's my relationship to it is
my relationship to it is it's um
it's it's a hard thing to describe it's it the
it the it's the best version of seven years of
it's the best version of seven years of thought that's not there now yeah
Rick I don't know what else to say but thank you
thank you um
um I'm drawn back to the intro again
I'm drawn back to the intro again nothing in this book is known to be true
nothing in this book is known to be true it's a reflection of what I've noticed
it's a reflection of what I've noticed not facts sent much as thoughts
not facts sent much as thoughts it is going to help so many people
it is going to help so many people it really is it's certainly helped this
it really is it's certainly helped this man already in the past two weeks so
man already in the past two weeks so thank you for that amazing
thank you for that amazing um thank you for first and foremost
um thank you for first and foremost making the art that moved you yes
making the art that moved you yes that's a key lesson for me and um
that's a key lesson for me and um Rick it's been an absolute pleasure
Rick it's been an absolute pleasure thank you
thank you my pleasure thank you if that
my pleasure thank you if that conversation resonated with you here is
conversation resonated with you here is another incredibly powerful one that I
another incredibly powerful one that I really think you're going to enjoy when
really think you're going to enjoy when you encounter that really you wake up to
you encounter that really you wake up to creativity you wake up to love you wake
creativity you wake up to love you wake up to compassion truth goodness Beauty
up to compassion truth goodness Beauty Harmony Insight imagination creativity
Harmony Insight imagination creativity Vision you break up to a higher quality
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