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For People Feeling Behind In Life - Do This Before 2025 Ends To Find Purpose & Meaning | Rick Rubin

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Core Theme

The content emphasizes that individuals have the power to make choices that lead to a more joyful and fulfilling life, stressing the importance of self-care and authentic expression in both personal and creative endeavors. It suggests that true creativity and impact stem from being true to oneself, rather than conforming to external expectations or outcomes.

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we are in control of our own lives we

often don't realize we're in control but

we're in control of our own lives and we can

can

make different choices and if the things

in our life are not bringing us joy and

happiness if our career that we've

devoted all of our Lives to isn't

bringing us joy we can change them if we

decide our relationship is not the right

relationship we don't have to suffer in

that relationship

we have our own power and we can make a

change and it takes courage

um but it's in everyone's best interest

for us to take care of ourselves to be

in a relationship or in a job where

you're phoning it in because you think

it's your responsibility to do the job

there's probably someone who would do

that job with passion and bring more to

it than you are in your relationship if

you've fallen out of love

and you're going through the motions

you're not doing anyone any favors

it's not real and um and if you feel

depressed and you can't manage the life

you're in you can go move to another

part of the world you can live on a

beach you know you can you can

there's so many options available to us

that we don't you know we're stuck in

our small story of who we are and what

our lives are and

it's all a choice and we have the power

to change it anything anything in our

lives that doesn't give us joy

we can change and we can find the

version that that suits us and it's not

only in service to us it's ultimately

what's best for everyone you know when

you're on an airplane and they say if

the plane's going to go down these uh

masks are going to fall down put your

mask on first before you put on your

child's or anyone else's which is

counter-intuitive we always think we

take care of our children first

but if you're not taking care of

yourself you can't take care of anyone else

else

so I would say primarily take care of

yourself first if you want to save the

world save yourself

and then save your immediate family and

then save your immediate uh neighborhood

and then save your you know your um your town

town

start with small circles and build out

do you know meta meditation The Meta

meditation is uh might be filled with

loving kindness may I be well may I be

peaceful and at ease may I be happy we

repeat these four phrases over and over

again and for the first year or so of

doing it it's May I

and then after a year of May I we've

built up a strong enough charge to say

may we and the we might be your

immediate family first and you do that

for another year and build up the power

in that unit

and then you can extend it and by the

fifth year you can do it for the planet

but you can't do it for the planet first

because there's no built up charge so do

what's necessary to take care of

yourself build yourself up have the

strongest charge possible

that you could then share and make the

world a better place

we can live in a way where we're living

in an Artful way where we're uh

engaged and paying attention and um

making each choice count or we can live

in a

almost like sleepwalking through the day

which many many of us do

many of us do just

go along

yeah just you know repeat yesterday again

again

um and

I suppose the principal argument of the

book although it didn't set out to be

this way is that um

is that the way we choose to live in the world

impacts our ability to

to [Music]

[Music] um

to make more beautiful things it's it's

um it's less about

the making and more the being

and through the being

it's like a reverberation of it it's not

it's not the it's not the primary yeah I

didn't know that before starting the

book honestly it came through the

process of trying to understand how uh

uh [Music]

[Music]

how decisions

um have been made over the course of my

life that yielded good results creatively

creatively um

and it revealed itself through the

process of the book

I think it's very rare that I picked up

a book that has

resonated with me I would say on a deep

visceral level

as quickly as yours has

I think it's maybe the time in my life

the way I'm

experiencing it what I'm looking for at

the moment

but what really strikes him as

interesting is on the surface

surface

it kind of seems as though it's a book

about art

but actually it seems more to me

about being a book about

yes I would agree

you have been involved with the curating of

many music albums over the course of

your career some of the most famous

albums on the planet what was it like

working on a book

compared to working on music

felt felt very much out of my depth

with music I've done it long enough where

where

um I have a sense I want to say I have a

sense of how it works even though it's

still this magic process that I that we

have no control over

but because of you know 35 or 40 Years

of doing it uh

it's not a total unknown

whereas the book was much more of an

unknown stepping into it and I've never

put out anything with my name on the

front of it before I'm always the you

know I'm essentially an invisible coach

sometimes people know about my

involvement but I'm a behind the scenes

uh participant in the projects that I am

in this is the first time that

it's actually me and I'm the person

talking about it usually the works that

I work on

I rarely talk about them because the

person whose name's on the front of the

record talks about them

so it's been an interesting different

experience and um

um and and

and and

finding words

to explain something that I don't know

can be explained and that I don't I

don't fully understand it's difficult

yeah that's where I think very evasive

you know it's like what I'm I'm

describing smoke and it's hard to

describe smoke

I think

that's where the magic for me in this

book is you

I guess you're writing about an

experience you're writing about the way

you have experienced art the way you see

art through your lens you you have

possibly the best opening to any book

ever nothing in this book is known to be

true it's a reflection and what I've

I love love it so so much

and I think one of the reasons

I like that opening so much is you know

I've been a practicing medical doctor

for 21 years now as we're having this

conversation Rick

and the more patients I see the more

people I'm able to help the more I realize

realize

I don't actually know that much

and some of the best clinicians and

doctors I've met

also share the same view like this you

know the more I know the more I realize

I just don't know and I'm always open to be

I'm always open to being surprised by

something a patient tells me or

something a patient experiences and actually

actually

I think there are so many similarities

between art the way you describe it in

your book and Medicine the way I like to

practice it

which is I think what is drawing me to

it so much

that's beautiful I didn't know that and

that really lands with me in a great in

a great way I hope there are more people

in the medical field who have have that feeling

you use the term invisible coach before

yeah which I think is a really beautiful

way of thinking about certainly what

I've read about you I've consumed as a

fan many of the albums you've been

involved with some of them have played

huge parts of my youth growing up at

and I was thinking well how can Rick can

do hip-hop and rock and Metal

and whatever genre you are helping that

now how do you help an artist to be

themselves if the artists themselves

doesn't know who they really are

sometimes they they uh they often don't

know who they are

and they often tell you who they are

without knowing they're telling you who

they are okay so through through really

through conversation

I imagine very similar to do you spend

when you when you get a new patient

if you spend time talking to them

absolutely okay and I imagine they tell

you things that

light up for you as okay I know what's

going on here yeah yeah when they're

telling it to you they have no idea yeah

it's exactly the same it's exactly the

same if I if you really listen

people tell you what they need

what they want what their dreams are and

they'll tell you I don't know what I

want I don't know what my dreams are I

don't know who I am and then they tell

you exactly this is who I am this is

what my dreams are but it but they're um

it's almost like sometimes we're too close

we're too close to be able to see

ourselves it's very difficult to see

ourselves it's funny just a few hours

ago I had a conversation with the chap

Called Bruce Lipton who wrote the book

the biology of belief

and it was a wonderful conversation and

Bruce talks about the conscious mind of

the subconscious mind and how 95 of our

lives are driven by our subconscious patterns

but what really connects with what you

were just saying there is we were

talking about how

we can see those patterns in other

people very clearly you can see in our

partner yes and our children and our

friends you're just like your mum you're

just like your dad but it's not so easy

to see it ourselves is it no no it's too

close and same same goes in in working

on things it's

um when we're creating something we we

can get into it to a point of

tunnel vision

to where through the singular focus of

working on it we lose perspective on

so it's something that that's helped that

that

artist an artist who writes their own

material might find helpful to have

they

they might be too close to it to truly

see what it is yeah

um and and it's helpful to have someone

say when I when I read these lyrics this

makes me feel this is that what you're

is that

and sometimes they'll say no not at all

not at all not only no not at all but if

that's what you got from it I have to

change it yeah

and other times it'll be yes that's

exactly what it means that's what I want

it to be and sometimes it's

no that's not what it means but it

doesn't but that's fine too you know

it's it really

each case depends on um there's no right

or wrong in any in any of these art decisions

decisions

an outside Source mirroring back what's

going on and it either resonates or not

did you have an invisible coach to help

you with your work in this book

because it sounds like that's what you

offer to other people

because as you just be beautifully said

we we can get too close to the work yeah

um so did you have people around you to

help you

maintain that perspective and distance

absolutely I had people helping along

the way in different capacities

um ultimately at the end of the project

Scott who's the editor at penguin press

in New York was really helpful in the

final touches of what worked and what didn't

didn't

um but all through the process

started working with

one writer and then working with another

I ended up working with many people over

the course of the seven years of working

on the book and

and

it went through lots of um

changes in iterations on the way

to get where where it is but it it

really helps to have

have uh

people who know more than you do about

the thing that you're working on help

has that been your experience with books

how is how has it worked yeah um

and the funny thing is well a couple of

things come up for me as I say that if

you'd ask me

seven years ago

do you have a book in you I might have

said yeah I think I've got one

I think I've got one book in me yes and

what I've learned through this process

of writing a book a year for the past

five years I can't imagine that well you

say that but you've got I guess you've

done that in your field in music right

you've probably helped so it's I guess

whenever it's in a different field we we

see it differently but

and I want to talk about deadlines and

all kinds of things because it all sort

of plays in um

but I've I've come to the belief that

humans are infinitely creative yes and

that when I finish one book and I've

it's gone off to print and I've done a

round of interviews on it

I feel like I've I've solidified those

thoughts I've shared them in the world

and then I've empty the space in my

brain Forks

new ideas are coming and then I'm

suddenly seeing new ideas fantastic everywhere

everywhere

but if you'd asked me a few years ago I

said no I can't I've just got one I've

got nothing else to share but in terms

of your question Rick

one of the things I've learned I

remember the first time I sent an edit

into penguin I thought yeah I'm happy

with this and

came back with all these comments

comments

um not clear this that happened

initially I think I found it hard and

that's probably an ego thing and what

I've learned over the last few years is

that you know these edits are great

they're absolutely fantastic you don't

have to agree with them all but don't be

attached to your idea too much just

listen to what people have to say then

really tune in and go actually

do you agree is it helpful so I've had a

I've had a love hate relationship with

feedback I think it's I think it's in a

good place now but I think the problems

I initially faced if I'm honest and I do

have a tendency to be a bit

self-critical but I think they were to

do with ego

what is it like for you when you receive

comments about some of the work that

you've worked on some of the words that

you've written um I'm

um I'm

open to hearing them and um

in in every case it seemed to lead to it

getting better yeah

I would agree with that because even if

you don't necessarily agree yeah even

the thought process and going why don't

I agree well oh yeah but actually

there's an element of Truth there which

resonates so I and there's a big theme

in the book is you talk about art being collaborative

but you must have come across ego I imagine

imagine

in your career

have you come across ego and how have

you managed it um

um absolutely

absolutely

think part of the

secret of collaborating with someone

who's uh has an inflated ego which is

comes along with the territory of you

know if you go on stage in front of 20

000 people screaming for you every day

yeah you can that can fill you up [Music]

[Music] um

I think a lot of uh having critical

serious critical conversations has to do

with taking the person out of it

and um talk about it in the book The

the more the comments or the more

specific and um

external they are

so we're talking about a song If I say

your words aren't good enough that's

really a personal affront yeah

but if we have the lyrics out here we're

looking at the lyrics together

and the idea is together we're going to

look at this and see is there anything

that either of us can see that can make

this better

it's different it's like we move it and

and we get very specific and it's not

your lyrics it's these lyrics you know

um or whatever it is that the more that

it's outside of us

if someone tells you an idea and you say

I don't like that idea that's person

that's personal yeah

but if someone makes a model of

something and you say well I like this

but I don't like this you're you're

talking about a model you're not talking

about the person

and by the way none of it's personal

that's that's the important part is

making it clear

we're working together for the best

thing to occur and none of it's personal

we're on the same team

and we're working together on behalf of

this outside object yeah

that same principle applies in relationships

relationships

as as well as making art doesn't it if

it's not personal if it's just about the

thought or

um the thing that you're discussing and

you can make it non-personal it's going

to have a much more productive outcome

even with ourselves you know how we how

we speak to ourselves yeah

yeah

I remember when I um I was sedentary

most of my life and I weighed uh 100

pounds more than I do now

and when I first

um met this group of athletes who

invited me to train with them which was

Radical I lost a bunch of weight and

they invited me to train with them foreign

foreign

I remember they showed me an exercise

and I said I can't do that and they say

no never say you can't do it say I

haven't done it yet

I haven't done it yet and that's true

with everything it's like there's

nothing that you can't do you may not

have done it yet

we don't know if you can do it or not

until you really practice and then you

find out if you can do it or not or how

well you can do it yeah

I want to talk later on this

conversation about your physical

transformation because I

I think it's incredibly fascinating

there's so many different strands and

the way we talk to ourselves which

you've just hinted out there

there was a bit in the book where you

were talking about

feeling insecure maybe doubting yourself

versus doubting yeah which I thought was

a a beautiful distinction and then then

you wrote this gorgeous bit which is

basically insecurity

is only a hindrance

when it stops you sharing what's in your

heart wow that's beautiful it's funny I

I told you I don't really know what's in

the book because over seven years all

the information came out

but it's not it's even when I was

working on it's not things that I

necessarily know yeah it is beautiful

and beautiful

it's one of those phrases I've

underlined I've written it in my

notebook because I feel at this moment

in my life Rick

think about that a lot I think about

art I think about the expression of

ideas and

once you start trying to

do something for an outcome yes

yes

I think I've experienced in the past

that that's where the problems start to

rise you start to fracture

the core of who you are and I think you

can be successful by a societal metric

of success

but in the process

a part of you starts to weather in sight

yes uh so I I think that is so so

as a research you Rick that one of the

big ideas that comes up is that you talk about

about

how you can't make art if you're

thinking about the outcome or you're

thinking about business are you thinking

about how many copies it's going to sell

or what are the audience going to think

have you always had that perspective on

arts or is that something you've

developed through experience I've always

had it and um I think it's because it

started as a hobby and I never in a way

I never took it seriously in one way I

took it more serious than anything else

in terms of the making of the art but I

never took it seriously in terms of it

being a commercial thing ever at any

point from the beginning it was always

you know the Hope was that it would sell

enough to be able to make another one

that's all it ever was it was you know

very um

meager expectations

I always thought I'd have a real job

and then I would make music because

that's what I love to do and I thought

well I have a job and that would support

my music habit I never understood that

it could be I didn't even know it could

be a job

do you consider a real job now

yes and no I mean I I it has worked out

that I haven't had to do anything else

so I guess and I have an incredibly

beautiful life um

and I suppose based on the fact that

I have a schedule and I'm obligated to

show up so I have commitments it is a

job yeah that said

when I'm there there's nothing more fun

than seeing something appear that wasn't

there before yeah and um The Wonder of

it because again I I don't feel in

control of the process I don't think

anyone has control of the process I

think there's truly magic going on we

can set the stage to best support it to

happen yeah but we can't make it happen

and um it's it's uh it's it's thrilling

when it does and and I and I also you

know one of the things I say in the book

is the audience comes last and the

audience comes last not because I don't

care about them or I don't like the audience

audience

in in service to the audience they have

to come last

the I the thing that the audience wants

is the best thing they can get if we're

if we're trying to make it for them it

won't be the best thing it can get it'll

water it down it'll the process of

making something for someone else

undermines it

this is something I've learned through

I mean there's so much

that I've learned in the last four and a

half nearly five years of putting this

but one of the things I've deeply deeply

learned is that

I will choose every guest and I will

choose it based on my curiosity

and I remember talking to my team about

this a few months ago and said look

people are wanting this people wanting

that people want this guest

and I take that very seriously it's not

that I'm disregarding that

but if I'm going to be truly authentic

and true to myself and therefore true to them

them

I've learned that actually no wrong and

you have to almost selfishly choose the

guests yes the

the

excite you that awakens something inside

of you that you passionately want to sit

there for two hours with and go deep with

with

because otherwise the audience will will

hear it if you've just rolled it out

you've got the right guest you've said

the right things I remember saying on a

podcast a few years ago when I was a

guest on someone else's show and it just

came out of me I said

although I'm a medical doctor and people

consider this a health podcast in many

ways which I think is very limiting anyway

anyway um

my podcast is not an information

delivery system

it's about authenticity if I can connect

with my guests

that's all I'm looking for is a deep

connection and any information any

helpful information will kind of spit

out as a side effect of that connection

yes and I don't think I recognize that

when I started podcasting but the more I've

I've

worked on and hopefully got better at

the skill Affairs I passionately believe

that that's the case it sounds right it

sounds right and um and it's been the

case that people like what you're doing

so it's a good sign

do you always know in the moment when

you're in a studio with a band of solo

artists and something magical's happening

happening

do you always know in the moment not

always yeah no not always just had an

interesting experience to tell you about it

um just before coming to Europe I was in

uh Malibu for a few weeks and I made a

new album with Neil Young Neil Young and

Crazy Horse

and it was unlike any experience I've

ever had before in the recording studio

and I've had a lot of experiences in the

recording studio but this was really unusual

unusual

and um I don't know how much you know

about Crazy Horse but Neil has played

with Crazy Horse for 50 years the band

the band members are all turning 80 next

year but Neil is not uh I think Neil

I think Neil's 76 or 77 not sure

um but the band members all turned 80. and

and

they're not

um like Studio musicians they're not

like crack musicians they have a sound

that's their sound and it's couldn't be

more authentic it's they when they play

it sounds like them um

but in terms of like learning the

material it doesn't just happen

instantaneously like Studio musicians

barely even need to hear it and they can

play it and it's perfect that that's not

the case with with Crazy Horse

and we played through songs for the

first week and I will say it was rough

uh rough to the point of

not only did we not get the recordings

that that um

who were

the the basis of a great album but

it was a question of whether they would

ever be able to play the songs that's

how how far off it seemed

and um and we so the first week is a

slow week and but they play through all

the songs as I say poorly but we but we

get through the week and now I'm

thinking okay maybe next week now that

they've played them one time when we

come back it's going to be better the

next time

and uh and Neil suggests what song to

start with on the next Monday we're back

fresh new week and um

and the drummer Ralph so we already

played that one

and uh and and it was a remarkable

moment because

um they did play it but it was uh in a

very um

unclear form yeah and then we spent the

next week playing the songs again and um

most of them did not get better in some

cases they got worse and it was again fascinating

fascinating

and then Neil suggested you know let's

listen back to the songs from that first

week which in the moment seemed nowhere near

near close

and we listened through and then it's

like well this moment is really good and

and

if this part didn't have this mistake

we don't know like the distract the

mistake is a distraction distracts us to

think it's no good but it's really this

mistake let's repair the mistake

and we kind of went through it and did

not much

and then listen back and say hmm it's

much better than we thought and and now

the album The album's done I think it's

beautiful I love it I really love it and

Neil loves it and knows it's special

and um and I think pretty much every one

of the tracks was recorded in that first

week when at the moment it seemed like I

don't know if they'll ever be able to

play these yeah it's unbelievable

it's incredible to hear that especially

with such

an experience producer and experience and

and um

I wonder what that is is it a bit like

I'm sure you went through this through

the writing process when

you've written a chapter

and yeah you're not sure

I don't know and then when you read a

few paragraphs that I'm not sure I'm

getting my idea out there the way I

wanted to is it clear enough and then

you just remove one sentence or you just

remove one from this paragraph one from

that paragraph then oh now it's singing

now it's humming now it's purring

beautifully yes is it a bit like that

absolutely you can yeah sometimes

removing the distractions

falls into place and and I can also say

the opposite is true in the studio where

we'll be working and trudging along and

it seems mediocre and then all of a

sudden it gets good and everyone looks

at each other like

something's happening you know and we

you feel it in the moment that that's

actually more common yeah feeling it in

the moment and recognizing something

special is happening

um but this was a really interesting

case because it was the furthest extreme

in the opposite direction that I've ever

experienced yeah and what's interesting

for me uh

as someone hearing that story is

you're constantly being surprised

all your years of experience and

knowledge and then even even you are

getting surprised all the time daily I'm

surprised daily yeah and there's another

quote I was going to talk to you about which

which um

I nearly brought up when you were

chatting about writing the book because

you said I think you were talking about

essentially it being out of your comfort

zone it was unusual for you to be

writing yourself putting your name on

the front

and again I maybe because I'm just

started writing book six at the moment

um but I love this Beware of the

assumption that the way you work is the

best way simply because it's the way

you've done it before yeah beautiful yeah

yeah

yeah there is no right way and um

sometimes when we do something and find

success in the way we've done it we

think that's the way it works

yeah but it's rarely the only way

and that and it could quickly become a

limiting belief

if you start making things that all

start seeming very similar yeah

so opening it up to trying a completely

different way using a different palette um

collaborating with different people um

so in so many different ways in

being open to

if you're a rock band maybe the acoustic

version is interesting you know we don't

yeah if you if you're used to playing loud

loud

you don't think the quiet version could

be good but you never know it's like

let's let's turn over all the stones

let's see what's possible there's

another similarity here between

art and Medicine

and well I guess my view on medicine

more and more is that for most

of the cases I see

helping a patient to

get better whatever that means yes

I'm convinced now more than ever that

it's more art than science yes

I understand for a very acute case

um or you know you need a heart

operation like I know you've spoken

about publicly before you need a super

skilled surgeon who can go in and do

what's necessary I understand that

but for the bulk of things that people

are complaining of these days

I think the job of a healthcare

professional or a medical doctor like myself

myself

is to be like you are to your artist an

invisible coach right reflect back to

them help them realize that they've got more

autonomy more control more influence on

their health than they think yes but

also realize that what you've just said

that there is no one right way like I

can see 10 different people

with symptoms of inadverted commas depression

depression

and there may well be 10 different ways yes

yes

to help those 10 people and actually the

same person

you may be able to get them better in

five different ways yes

so I it's funny you know I

the the book

it ain't just about making records it's

not about writing books it's also about

seeing patience it's about

I think you say somewhere that it's

about you know art and creativity is

actually about the way we experience life

life

and that's why I think it is so magical

because these are little bits of

Timeless wisdom

that in many ways you've written through

the lens of music

but actually you're applicable to everything

everything

I hope so I hoped to write the book in

an open enough way where and I think the

nature of the principles that that are

discussed are not about music yeah and

while I view them as being about art

it is true we can live in an Artful way

and it'll be better than if we don't

regardless of what it is we're doing

are we all artists

we all we all are artists the question

is is are we a better artist today than

we were yesterday and are we doing

everything we can to be the best artists

we can be tomorrow

and it's it's uh we're all art we may

not all be da Vinci

but are are we better than we were and

can we continue to become better and

better and better and it's an ongoing

iterative process over the course of Our Lives

creativity of course is a

huge part of Arts and

and

I was thinking about this this morning when

when

sort of reflecting that we were going to

have a conversation today I was thinking well

well

if if life is Arts

and creates everything is an expression

or something we have to tap into to

express our art then maybe the way we

are with our children the way we are

with our partners that's creativity as

well absolutely yeah absolutely all of

it and how we are with ourselves again

it's all it's all of those things

um anything we do to

if we're dealing with some uh

some issue

and if we decide to take a pill for that

issue or decide to make a creative

change in our life

that allows the issue to resolve itself

that's a creative choice

and um

it seems like in terms of the

sustainability of being able to do these

things for a long time

maybe the taking the pill version isn't

how often uh as a physician how often do

you recommend a lifestyle change versus

uh Pharmaceutical

I mean pretty much 99 of the time if not

100 these days this is what my

entire career and certainly with

patience but also my public facing

career this is what it's all about is to

help people realize actually

the majority of what we're struggling

with today

is a result of our Collective modern

Lifestyles and I say that very yes

carefully I'm not blaming people yes

it's our Collective modern Lifestyles yes

yes

and actually I believe this book now I

think about it

you can make you can make a case of this

as a health book because if

art is an authentic expression of who we

are and we're going to do that

irrespective of the outcome irrespective

what people are going to think

if it's truly about authenticity

then I can categorically

say with certainty that people living in

authentic lives

results in so many of the problems that

I see simple one like if you are not

living uh in alignment with your values

with that disconnect and who you are

with that fracture that's opened up in

the core of who you are you will put

things in that void sugar alcohol

whatever it might be it's often trying

to fill the void of inauthenticity so

the book I feel is is helping people

live a meaningful more authentic life

with some simple but very very

Timeless and apt truths

so I would have thought if people

absorbed them and live their lives by them

them

that it will also help improve their

health absolutely I'll tell you a story I

um I used to live in

um artist hours with musical artist

hours so I would sleep until

typically noon although it could be as

late as three

and then I would not leave the house

until the sun set and then I would work

in the studio all night long and usually

drive home as the sun was Rising that

was my normal schedule

for years and years and years

even back to high school I missed the

first three classes of high school um

for the last two years of high school

pretty consistently because I was already

already

training this late night night owl

schedule which just felt it felt natural

to me and it was

it seemed the way other people who were

interested in the things that I were

interested did the same

and um

I worked with a performance coach named

Phil maffetone

who and this was

um let's say 20 years ago yeah

and the first thing he said is and I

sleep with these blackout blinds and he

said the first thing I want you to do is

as soon as you wake up

open the blinds and go outside

preferably naked but at least as much of

your body in the Sun as possible the

minute you wake up yeah and he had me

start doing that and at this time I was

waking up at noon and I started doing

that and

and very quickly

I started waking up earlier and earlier

and earlier and earlier it happened

um when he suggested it to me

what I heard so he said I want you to go

outside in the center the minute you

wake up what I heard was I want you to

jump off a cliff

that's how that's how

radical and terrifying it sounded

compared to how my experience of what

what uh what's safe and comfort in life

was was not that

and um that was the first like getting

in tune with the planet I didn't it was

something I didn't know about I didn't

know about that so in terms of being

your authentic self also being your your

authentic animal on this planet there

are certain um

his historically uh on a DNA level yeah

there are things that our bodies like

and in our modern world we don't take

those into consideration

evolutionary truths I guess absolutely

and now I do as much as I can to live by the

the

um you know the way people lived a

thousand years ago as possible or ten

thousand or a hundred thousand yeah

I'm familiar with film office work um

I think it's great I hope to

get in touch with Phil at some point and

have it on the show I'd love to talk to

him yes um

you have in a previous interview

described your weight loss Journey as creative

creative

then if you recall that or not or I

can't remember the context but I know

but that's interesting yeah I found that

really interesting so I thought wow

I'm trying to broaden the lens on arts

and creativity through you know really

reading your book has

it's been it's for it's it's not force

me it's encourage me down a path of

introspection about what does art really

mean yes

and I found it's so interesting hearing

you Rick say that I thought weight loss

is creative

do you have any idea what you might have

meant by that I'm not sure I'm not sure

I can tell you about the experience

though it was an interesting

I was overweight my entire life

my mom was obese and towards the end of

her life was in a wheelchair due to her obesity

obesity

I've been

dieting and I went to Weight Watchers

with my mom when I was a kid I'd

I'd

tried every fad diet along the way and

nothing seemed to change

and and then finally

I I was at this breaking point when I

when I reached out to Phil I read a book

by a guy named Stu middleman who ran a

thousand miles in 11 days and I was

thinking I can't you know walk to the

end of the block and it's and and

another human being can run a thousand

miles in 11 days so this I have bad

information you know like I'm doing

something wrong

and um and in in Stu's book he talked

about Phil and that's how he was able to

do this crazy thing and okay I have to

meet this guy Phil he know he has the

answers and I've met with Phil and I met

with Phil several times then he

eventually ended up moving into my house

and we lived together for two years and

and

I did everything he said and my health

improved radically and my um

my Vitality turned back on from

essentially being off from a life of

sedentary I was also a vegan for 20

something years which

really uh created havoc in my body it

was not it was not right for me why were

you a vegan for ethical reasons for

health combination combination

um it started

I gave up originally in college I gave up

up uh

Coca-Cola Pepsi Cola first

Ben gave up

and I I did those things I would say

thinking that it was help beliefs about health

um and I got down to the point where I

was I wasn't using any caffeine I was

drinking uh only water and I was eating

chicken and vegetables at that point in time

time

and uh then I moved to California and a

friend gave me a book called diet for a

new America which

is a

a book about veganism essentially

and he said if you read this book you're

not going to want to eat chicken anymore

because it talked about the horrors of

industrial meat

and I thought well if I give up chicken

I'm going to die because all I'm eating

now is chicken and vegetables so I can't

do that

um and I thought at that time before I

read the book I'm going to experiment

and see how long I can go without eating chicken

chicken

and um and then I ended up not eating

chicken again for 20 some odd years and

just ended up eating vegetables and a

lot of uh processed vegan food which was

it turns out not very healthy

or at least not healthy for me oh I can

only speak to my experience but my

experience was and and I will say most

of the vegans I know I knew

didn't look very healthy either

how heavy were you at your heaviest

um 318 pounds but I don't know what that

is in kilograms yeah okay

okay 318 pounds and then

you start working with Phil

start working with Phil did everything

he said my hours changed I got in tune

with the planet

um I was able to do stairs and walk long

distances without

um dying was he doing the heart rate yes

he gave you your heart rates yes and

said I want you to move your body but

not go above this specific heart rate

yes low uh

aerobic heart heart rate so he has a

formula that doesn't need like 180 minus

your age and then you can vary

certain things yeah exactly so but when

you were asked to do that yes so you can

you know get walking or getting it says

but your heart rate can't go above a

certain number that he gave you well you

want to keep your heart rate right at

that number as close as you can get if

you're walking

slowly and you're not getting to that

number you're not doing it you want to

be as close to the target number as

possible for as long as you can you'd

wear a heart rate monitor absolutely and

you'd literally be out walking and

checking either out when at this point

in time I lived in Los Angeles so out

walking is not so easy because the hills

make it nearly impossible

um so I had a treadmill and I did it on

a treadmill at that point in time

so he changes your circadian rhythm by

getting you to see natural lights in the

morning yes which is in tune with your

evolutionary biology and your heritage

yes and vitamin D and um uh the

ultraviolet I got all the benefits of

being in the sun in addition to getting

on the on the um on the right

schedule yeah

and did he make changes to your diet

absolutely he wanted me to eat meat he

wanted me to eat everything

um other than carbs which at that time I

wasn't able to do because I was still a

vegan so

he had me add fish and eggs as the minimal

minimal

of what I could do and and I ate them

both not I never liked fish

growing up I didn't eat fish

and eggs was never something I liked

and and he said regardless whether you

like them or not this is medicine you

take it as medicine think of it as

medicine you need animal protein and

and

I had the I added the animal protein I

cut all soy I cut nuts I cut

I cut I cut a lot of things

and I didn't did not lose weight I lost

maybe five or ten pounds over the two

years that we worked together and you

stuck to the advice absolutely he was

with me and he said at the end of it he

said and he said 99 out of 100 people

who've done what you did all their

weight would fall off for some reason it

hasn't with you and then I thought well

my mom's obese it's just a genetic thing

this is what it is but at least I'm

healthy now you know at least and I felt

very healthy I think that's an

interesting lesson there so you

radically transform your lifestyle I

guess the goal initially was weight loss

it was so the goal was weight loss and

although you didn't really

gets or meet your goal I'm sure you want

in more than five or ten pounds yes yes

you got all these

unexpected benefits

um can you remember what they were it's

like energy or yeah I felt great I felt

great better than you felt before oh

absolutely so much better

so much better so much better

in so many ways and then so that so now

I'm a healthy heavy person

and that went on for years

and then I was suggested to go to see a

nutritionist by I have had a mentor he

just passed away maybe

three weeks ago named Moe Austin

beautiful man he was he worked for Frank

Sinatra and he signed Jimi Hendrix and

he signed the sex pistols and he was a a

really uh one of the most beautiful

people ever in the music business

and I went out to lunch with him one day

and he said you know I'm really getting

worried about you I know that you you

swim every day and you watch what you

eat because I did but you're really

getting big and I'm concerned and I'm

gonna get the name of a nutritionist I

want you to go to my nutritionist and do

whatever he said whatever he says and I

said okay I'll do it knowing it was not

going to work because again I've been

diligent my whole life in wanting to

lose weight and nothing has worked so

I'm assuming nothing will work

but I go along with it because I like Mo

and I'll do anything he asked me to do

and I went to see his guy and he put me on

egg [ __ ] he had me have seven

egg shakes a day

and then

fish soup salad for dinner but very low

calorie so it was it was not so

different than what Phil was

recommending except the difference was

Phil suggests not counting calories

and I can see I understand the idea of

not counting calories and now I've come

to realize I think not counting calories

Works once you're at your target weight

but to get to your target weight you may

need to count calories yeah

first of all I'm sorry to hear about

your friends and Mensa yeah um

um yeah

yeah

so I so I went on a radically reduced

calorie diet I don't know 13 or 1400

calories a day and

um and in 14 months I lost 135 pounds

which is you know a third of my body

more more than a third of my body weight

wow it's interesting hearing that because

because

whether it's 99 or a significant uh

majority of people if they followed What Phil

Phil

yes we're saying would absolutely yes

have had better health better Vitality

better energy and they would have lost

weight yes because I've used that sort

of approach with not everyone what with

many of my patients and it can work

super super well and Phil said it worked

for if

everyone he's done it with its work so

he was he was baffled yeah and I think

that counts in calories saying is

again I think your story speaks to

you know an idea in your book that

don't get too attached to one way

there's always another way you know

absolutely and we're all different and

we're all different and what works for

you might not work for someone else and

it's helpful

to you know sometimes we have wisdom imparted

imparted

by an expert

who's telling us what what through their

experience is best yeah but it may be

what's best for them and not best for

you and we are not we are not one size

fits all yeah and it goes back to my

previous comment which is as you get

more experienced if you're open-minded

and yeah close-minded yes

after seeing tens of thousands of

patients if you remain open-minded

you're like there are always surprises

yes there are always people doing things

that you haven't tried before that but

they're doing and they're getting better

I've always liked to approach it with

curiosity and go wow that's interesting

I didn't know that I wouldn't have

suggested that but that's working for

you and I'd like to know more I'd love

to learn more absolutely that's I that's

my way of being in the world if someone

tells me something that doesn't make

sense to me I want to know more I want

to know everything I don't I don't uh

discount what they're saying just the

opposite yeah I guess it's it's whether

you're attached to an identity whether

you're attached to being right

or whether you're I guess attached to

learning yes because for me I think

that's the fundamental difference now

and I feel that's one of the key

moves I've made which is why I think at

this stage in my life you know my

mid-40s I've I've never felt this happy

and content and I think this is a big

part of it yeah Rick that it's not about

being right anymore I'm not okay fine if

I'm wrong about something okay great

I've had the opportunity to learn

something yes and I think calories for

for many people

I think where this calorie thing comes

for years I think a lot of people are

trying to count calories and a lot of

people of the view that if you focus on

the right Foods actually your natural

satiety will take care of those calories

for you that's certainly been my

experience for most people but as you're

just sharing well actually for some

people it might well be helpful

um and do you still count calories today

no well the other thing that I found

about counting calories that was really

helpful is

it is helpful to know where calories are

for example

when you know I

I'm in I I used to like peanut butter

and I switched to almond butter because

it was the healthier choice

but the amount of calories in half of a

jar of almond butter

are quite a lot so so I'm making but I'm

making a healthy choice and in my mind

well it's the healthy one I can have

half a bottle of almond butter because I

like it and I'm hungry so I'll have that

understanding that the the half of Jar

of almond butter had more calories than

I meant to eat in in a whole day in

addition to all the food that I eat

was helpful to me yeah it's an

empowerment piece isn't it you can now

use that information and now without

count and go hey I want a bit of almond

butter but I better not have half the

jar yes and now I rarely will have

almond butter just because it's so um

the trade-off of the amount of calories

for what it is I might not make that

choice yeah and again it's an

empowerment you're now with that

information absolutely you're saying for

you yeah it's not worth the trade-off

yes Bob down the street it's up to him

he may go yeah that's I I definitely

would rather eat less later but have my

almond butter yes and um yeah

super super interesting so you you

effectively went on a super low calorie

diet high protein no carb low calorie

diet so with Phil you had huge

improvements in multiple aspects of your

health yeah just not weight loss correct

when you saw uh your your late friend's

nutritionist yes

you got this incredible weight loss was

there anything else you got with it or

it this is an interesting one

I felt like I

I really in that in that case what he

was suggesting with the nutritionist was

suggesting was suggesting seemed very

far out to me it seemed extreme to me

and I felt like by doing what he said I was

was

I was

putting my faith in him

and turning turning myself over I didn't

do what I thought was best I did what he

thought was best which was not something

I'm good at um

and I found through that through giving

up what I thought was best that's how I

so what's the lesson there don't always

trust yourself well we can't we can't

always trust ourselves but it's

interesting that there are times when

it's it's an experiment you know it's an

experiment that sometimes

I'm gonna do it the way that doesn't

sound right to me and see what happens

again it's all a test

but to but I before I was I would have

been closed to that test because

that doesn't sound right to me I'm not

going to do that this didn't sound right to me but out of respect for Mo I'll try

to me but out of respect for Mo I'll try it

it yeah it's an interesting concept isn't

yeah it's an interesting concept isn't it because I guess

it because I guess we'd always want people to trust

we'd always want people to trust themselves

but nothing tends to be true at the extremes does it it's kind of like yeah

extremes does it it's kind of like yeah sure trust yourself trust yourself but

sure trust yourself trust yourself but sometimes lean in and trust someone else

sometimes lean in and trust someone else and see what happens yes

and see what happens yes it's a bit like that section in in the

it's a bit like that section in in the book The Britain on rules

book The Britain on rules and how

and how rules are sometimes always oh we're

rules are sometimes always oh we're always okay so tell me about rules

always okay so tell me about rules [Music]

[Music] um

um I think rules are there to be tested and

I think rules are there to be tested and when when a rule comes

when when a rule comes it can it can either be a useful rule

it can it can either be a useful rule or an A not useful Rule and

or an A not useful Rule and sometimes we'll adopt a set of rules on

sometimes we'll adopt a set of rules on purpose a limitation that that

purpose a limitation that that um

um to create a specific uh

to create a specific uh uh you may work on a book like every

uh you may work on a book like every time you work on a book you this you

time you work on a book you this you have a rough idea of what it's going to

have a rough idea of what it's going to be about it's not about everything yeah

be about it's not about everything yeah not every book is about everything so

not every book is about everything so you set up an organization for that book

you set up an organization for that book that's rules and that's rules that

that's rules and that's rules that you're adopting for that book

you're adopting for that book so there's time where having rules make

so there's time where having rules make sense in general in the world

sense in general in the world rules are there to establish

rules are there to establish an average Behavior

an average Behavior and I'm not sure that average is

and I'm not sure that average is anything to Aspire to so sometimes

anything to Aspire to so sometimes especially in art if you want to create

especially in art if you want to create something special

something special often it comes from breaking rules from

often it comes from breaking rules from going beyond the accepted Norm of how

going beyond the accepted Norm of how it's done

it's done yeah I'll tell you this is an

yeah I'll tell you this is an interesting medical story about going

interesting medical story about going beyond the Norms of how things are I

beyond the Norms of how things are I just heard the story recently

just heard the story recently um I have a friend who's a brilliant

um I have a friend who's a brilliant brain surgeon maybe one of the best in

brain surgeon maybe one of the best in the world

the world and he told me the story of doing a

and he told me the story of doing a brain surgery where

brain surgery where there was a big tumor in a part in the

there was a big tumor in a part in the brain it was a very particularly

brain it was a very particularly dangerous operation because the tumor

dangerous operation because the tumor was right next to the part of the brain

was right next to the part of the brain that allows a person to speak yeah

that allows a person to speak yeah and if the if the surgery went too far

and if the if the surgery went too far the person would never speak again

the person would never speak again and to do the surgery the person was

and to do the surgery the person was anesthetized but had to be awake and had

anesthetized but had to be awake and had to be speaking the whole time

to be speaking the whole time it's the only way to know how far you

it's the only way to know how far you can go

can go so the surgeon is doing these

so the surgeon is doing these the hiney slices of taking this tumor

the hiney slices of taking this tumor away tiny slices tiny slices in the

away tiny slices tiny slices in the person speaking to him and he knows well

person speaking to him and he knows well I'm getting close to the place I can't

I'm getting close to the place I can't go you know I can't go past because then

go you know I can't go past because then the person will never speak again

the person will never speak again and he's going in person speaking but

and he's going in person speaking but the tumor's still there and he's going

the tumor's still there and he's going and he's going he's going

and he's going he's going and then he gets to the part where he's

and then he gets to the part where he's not allowed to go further and the

not allowed to go further and the person's still speaking and he does

person's still speaking and he does another slice and the person's still

another slice and the person's still speaking he does another slice and he

speaking he does another slice and he does another slice and he keeps going

does another slice and he keeps going and he moved right through

and he moved right through where that what the textbook says you

where that what the textbook says you can't do and the person's speaking the

can't do and the person's speaking the whole time

whole time and and he said

and and he said it was me it was incredible it was an

it was me it was incredible it was an incredible experience and

incredible experience and the way we thought the brain works is

the way we thought the brain works is not the way the brain works

not the way the brain works and then I said well

and then I said well how much of the

how much of the how much of what's taught today in

how much of what's taught today in medical school in the textbook in

medical school in the textbook in medical school textbooks of medical

medical school textbooks of medical school how much of that information is

school how much of that information is accurate and up to date and how much

accurate and up to date and how much isn't and he said maybe half

isn't and he said maybe half maybe half of what's being taught right

maybe half of what's being taught right now

now might be right I'm at least half is

might be right I'm at least half is either wrong or obsolete yeah

either wrong or obsolete yeah that's incredible it's incredible

that's incredible it's incredible that's incredible

that's incredible and and that's why it's a Folly to to

and and that's why it's a Folly to to cling too tightly to these beliefs or

cling too tightly to these beliefs or these so-called truths that you've been

these so-called truths that you've been taught yes we don't know you don't know

taught yes we don't know you don't know no we don't know we know so little and

no we don't know we know so little and and I think the real

and I think the real um Power we can have is embracing how

um Power we can have is embracing how little we know

little we know to live in wonder you know it's it's a

to live in wonder you know it's it's a it's a much more beautiful way you you

it's a much more beautiful way you you said earlier about giving up being right

said earlier about giving up being right um

um when someone says to me you're right it

when someone says to me you're right it always makes me uncomfortable I don't

always makes me uncomfortable I don't want to be right I just want to know I

want to be right I just want to know I just want to know more do you know what

just want to know more do you know what I mean because if I'm right that means

I mean because if I'm right that means someone's wrong I don't want anybody to

someone's wrong I don't want anybody to be wrong I I want us all to just find

be wrong I I want us all to just find our way yeah you know it's not there's

our way yeah you know it's not there's there's no sense of competition in it

there's no sense of competition in it it's like let's work together to find

it's like let's work together to find our way

as someone who's not used to putting that name on the front set for work

that name on the front set for work they've been involved with

doesn't make you uncomfortable in any way when I

way when I Rave about how wonderful I think your

Rave about how wonderful I think your book is because many people struggle

book is because many people struggle with price yeah I I definitely struggle

with price yeah I I definitely struggle with praise but because they put so much

with praise but because they put so much work into it it's exciting for me to

work into it it's exciting for me to know

know that someone can read it and feel

that someone can read it and feel um what I felt when when working on it

um what I felt when when working on it so there's a a sense of satisfaction

so there's a a sense of satisfaction that it's doing what I hoped it would do

that it's doing what I hoped it would do which would be resonate with someone I

which would be resonate with someone I did I purposely did want this book

did I purposely did want this book for someone to read it and feel it and

for someone to read it and feel it and want to take action that was in some

want to take action that was in some ways the purpose of the book from the

ways the purpose of the book from the beginning there was a version of the

beginning there was a version of the book about three years ago which was

book about three years ago which was beautifully eloquent but when I read it

beautifully eloquent but when I read it it didn't it didn't make me want to make

it didn't it didn't make me want to make art it was just it was more um

art it was just it was more um it didn't do what I I wanted I wanted

it didn't do what I I wanted I wanted someone to read the book and want to

someone to read the book and want to write stop reading to go out and make

write stop reading to go out and make something beautiful

something beautiful is there a contradiction in

is there a contradiction in one of the core messages

one of the core messages which is

which is you cannot make art good art if you're

you cannot make art good art if you're thinking about the outcome or you're

thinking about the outcome or you're thinking about what people will think

thinking about what people will think I'm and I'm saying this as an inquiry to

I'm and I'm saying this as an inquiry to to explore not to no absolutely not with

to explore not to no absolutely not with any other intention I'm with you I'm

any other intention I'm with you I'm with you because you just said to me

with you because you just said to me that

that I really want people to be able to yes

I really want people to be able to yes take this resonate with take action so

take this resonate with take action so is there a conflict there with those two

is there a conflict there with those two white ideas and there is an aspect of

white ideas and there is an aspect of this book where it's

this book where it's an instruction manual yeah

an instruction manual yeah and for an instruction manual to be

and for an instruction manual to be effective

effective the information in it wants to land if

the information in it wants to land if it was a book of poetry less so yeah

it was a book of poetry less so yeah and I'm hoping it's poetic you know it

and I'm hoping it's poetic you know it is honestly I like I like that it's

is honestly I like I like that it's poetic but ultimately there the reason I

poetic but ultimately there the reason I put the time in

put the time in for this to exist was in the same way

for this to exist was in the same way that when I go to the studio with

that when I go to the studio with artists to help them be their best

artists to help them be their best selves

selves and the idea of the book was to be an

and the idea of the book was to be an outgrowth of that where for the people I

outgrowth of that where for the people I don't get to work with in the studio

don't get to work with in the studio what's it like being in the studio what

what's it like being in the studio what are the things we talk about

are the things we talk about um what are the things that we get to

um what are the things that we get to that ends up in making the things that

that ends up in making the things that we make and that's what the book is so

we make and that's what the book is so if it if it didn't make you want to make

if it if it didn't make you want to make something I would deem it not a success

something I would deem it not a success for me yeah

for me yeah there's uh there are so many wonderful

there's uh there are so many wonderful sections in the book that are coming to

sections in the book that are coming to mind for me at the moment Rick one of

mind for me at the moment Rick one of them is about

them is about um

um make art that moves you yes

make art that moves you yes if it happens to move someone else

if it happens to move someone else okay great and if it doesn't that's okay

okay great and if it doesn't that's okay as well but first and foremost make the

as well but first and foremost make the art that moves you yes I want to

art that moves you yes I want to etch that into my heart into my soul

etch that into my heart into my soul because I

because I there's a there's this other Concepts in

there's a there's this other Concepts in the book you talk about the the pressure

the book you talk about the the pressure of a loyal audience yes a loyal audience

of a loyal audience yes a loyal audience can begin to feel like a prison yes and

can begin to feel like a prison yes and I feel that's um it's a really

I feel that's um it's a really interesting concept and I actually think

interesting concept and I actually think every aspect that we've been talking

every aspect that we've been talking about is relevant to every single person

about is relevant to every single person that loyal audience thing is

that loyal audience thing is you know the way you expand upon it in

you know the way you expand upon it in the book through the concepts through

the book through the concepts through the lens of the music industry you know

the lens of the music industry you know if you're a successful artist

if you're a successful artist and you've sold loads of copies of your

and you've sold loads of copies of your album

album there's a whole team of people around

there's a whole team of people around you wanting you to repeat the same this

you wanting you to repeat the same this is the formula hey just just give us

is the formula hey just just give us that again right and

that again right and you know I have experienced a lot of um

you know I have experienced a lot of um a lot of an inverted commas success over

a lot of an inverted commas success over the past few years with this podcast

the past few years with this podcast with my books

with my books and what I love about that sort of idea

and what I love about that sort of idea is something I took some real time off

is something I took some real time off over the summer spent it with my wife

over the summer spent it with my wife and kids who went away I was off social

and kids who went away I was off social media it was just wonderful

media it was just wonderful and I've really been reevaluating what

and I've really been reevaluating what it is I want what is it I'm here to do

it is I want what is it I'm here to do and I don't want to play it safe you

and I don't want to play it safe you don't I don't want to you know you could

don't I don't want to you know you could play it safe you could only take

play it safe you could only take interviews with people who you know your

interviews with people who you know your audience are going to like and that's

audience are going to like and that's the topics that they want but I think

the topics that they want but I think that's a mis-service to them and it's a

that's a mis-service to them and it's a Mis service to myself absolutely because

Mis service to myself absolutely because in the process of doing that you lose

in the process of doing that you lose who you are yes and then you end up

who you are yes and then you end up compensating for that with all kinds of

compensating for that with all kinds of behaviors that ends you up in the

behaviors that ends you up in the doctor's surgery asking for help right

doctor's surgery asking for help right yes

yes yes

yes yeah

have you seen artists fall into that trap

trap absolutely it happens all the time just

absolutely it happens all the time just the the expectation it works in many

the the expectation it works in many different ways but the idea that if

different ways but the idea that if there's a group of people who are

there's a group of people who are expecting a certain thing from you

and you you no longer feel like that artist you know you've you've moved

artist you know you've you've moved forward

forward and your concern is that the audience

and your concern is that the audience hasn't moved forward

hasn't moved forward it's a very uncomfortable place to be

it's a very uncomfortable place to be you can continue going through the

you can continue going through the motions in the old way

motions in the old way and thinking that that will please the

and thinking that that will please the audience and it may or may not

audience and it may or may not or you can be true to yourself and in

or you can be true to yourself and in that process you'll alienate some of

that process you'll alienate some of your audience and maybe get new get new

your audience and maybe get new get new fans it's it's the reality of the

fans it's it's the reality of the situation I had that experience with um

situation I had that experience with um the band Lincoln Park Lincoln Park were

the band Lincoln Park Lincoln Park were a very

aggressive um

I guess the they were on the end of the new medal there was like a new metal

new medal there was like a new metal phase of music and they were the last

phase of music and they were the last band in this wave of these new metal

band in this wave of these new metal bands

bands and like rap rock new metal

and I had seen that they had grown past it and it was time to make their next

it and it was time to make their next album and I suggested that they embraced

album and I suggested that they embraced what they loved and to make the most

what they loved and to make the most interesting thing for themselves and

interesting thing for themselves and they did and it completely divided the

they did and it completely divided the audience and it set them up to be able

audience and it set them up to be able to continue making interesting things

to continue making interesting things going forward

going forward and in some ways it's like

and in some ways it's like their early career and now there's this

their early career and now there's this new career that's much more uh there was

new career that's much more uh there was much more

it moved in more directions and it was more honest

more honest it was less formulaic yeah

it was less formulaic yeah and

and it was fine you know it worked out fine

it was fine you know it worked out fine but definitely in the moment

but definitely in the moment I can remember it happened to me when

I can remember it happened to me when you know I loved Radiohead when they put

you know I loved Radiohead when they put out kid a

out kid a my first instinct was that's not what I

my first instinct was that's not what I want from Radiohead yeah it happens and

want from Radiohead yeah it happens and now listening back is one of my favorite

now listening back is one of my favorite albums

albums that happens we don't always know so

that happens we don't always know so even even as consumers then offers

letting go of rigidity and expectation and being open to the unknown and open

and being open to the unknown and open to things I guess that's an important

to things I guess that's an important lesson for us as well because you know

lesson for us as well because you know that as a Creator yes but that was

that as a Creator yes but that was really powerful that as a fan of

really powerful that as a fan of radioheads

radioheads you fell into that trap as well

you fell into that trap as well absolutely absolutely yeah and sometimes

absolutely absolutely yeah and sometimes again if we

again if we if you're if you have expectations or

if you're if you have expectations or you see things in a certain context

you see things in a certain context when that's

when that's um upset

it's hard to know where you stand yeah and

yeah and I've grown to really like that feeling

I've grown to really like that feeling it doesn't always mean difference not

it doesn't always mean difference not always better it's often not that's the

always better it's often not that's the other thing it's like just because it's

other thing it's like just because it's different doesn't mean it's better

different doesn't mean it's better and let's assume that because it's

and let's assume that because it's different it's not worse we don't know

different it's not worse we don't know it's like it has to you have to

it's like it has to you have to experience it and see

experience it and see sometimes the shock of the news is very

sometimes the shock of the news is very exciting and it's like ah yeah but

exciting and it's like ah yeah but sometimes it's a

it's so fascinating I am I saw this thing on Kurt Cobain a couple

I saw this thing on Kurt Cobain a couple of weeks ago on YouTube

of weeks ago on YouTube and there's something I didn't know I

and there's something I didn't know I was a you know when Smells Like Teen

was a you know when Smells Like Teen Spirit came out I was what I don't know

Spirit came out I was what I don't know probably about what was that 91

probably about what was that 91 something like that it's probably 13 14

something like that it's probably 13 14 15 you know really into music you know

15 you know really into music you know in seminal album

very real very authentic and then in this video I saw a couple of

and then in this video I saw a couple of weeks ago they were showing footage of

weeks ago they were showing footage of uh I think Kurt Cobain saying that

uh I think Kurt Cobain saying that or I think was Dave Grohl talking about

or I think was Dave Grohl talking about Kurtz

Kurtz that he wanted Devon to be the biggest

that he wanted Devon to be the biggest band in the world wow that's interesting

band in the world wow that's interesting it was really interesting because I was

it was really interesting because I was also at the same time reading your book

also at the same time reading your book yeah

yeah and I thought well this is interesting I

and I thought well this is interesting I never would have expected that that

never would have expected that that certainly wasn't the I'm not saying

certainly wasn't the I'm not saying curated image that I got given by the

curated image that I got given by the record industry but it's kind of raw

record industry but it's kind of raw authentic grunge bands

authentic grunge bands oh Kurt command wanted Nirvana's be the

oh Kurt command wanted Nirvana's be the biggest band in the world and I felt a

biggest band in the world and I felt a slight disconnect there when I heard

slight disconnect there when I heard that especially going back to the idea

that especially going back to the idea that you can't make great art if you're

that you can't make great art if you're thinking about the outcome

thinking about the outcome I don't know if you have any thoughts on

I don't know if you have any thoughts on that at all yeah what's interesting is

with the things that I've worked on things that I make I I

things that I make I I the audience comes last I want to make

the audience comes last I want to make the best thing that I can

the best thing that I can and

and I hope a lot of people like it I don't

I hope a lot of people like it I don't make it with them in mind because that's

make it with them in mind because that's it I know it won't be as good yeah

it I know it won't be as good yeah but when they do it certainly feels good

but when they do it certainly feels good I'm I'm not uh against success yeah at

I'm I'm not uh against success yeah at all

all at all

at all and it's a it's amazing when it happens

and it's a it's amazing when it happens it's when that becomes the primary focus

it's when that becomes the primary focus in the making when you're changing the

in the making when you're changing the art

art for it to be successful and I don't get

for it to be successful and I don't get the sense and I don't know this

the sense and I don't know this maybe Kurt Cobain wanted to be the

maybe Kurt Cobain wanted to be the biggest band in the world but I'd be

biggest band in the world but I'd be surprised if he made creative choices to

that with that in mind and that's the key

with that in mind and that's the key distinction isn't it it really is it's

distinction isn't it it really is it's it's it's what's the intention in the

it's it's what's the intention in the making yeah

making yeah again I I'm I'm there's there's nothing

again I I'm I'm there's there's nothing wrong with wanting and having success

wrong with wanting and having success I'm only talking about when you're

I'm only talking about when you're making something where does your focus

making something where does your focus lie for it to be as good as it could be

lie for it to be as good as it could be because imagine that can work

because imagine that can work both ways like I can imagine and maybe

both ways like I can imagine and maybe you've worked with bands where actually

you've worked with bands where actually better changed the Arts in order for it

better changed the Arts in order for it to be commercially successful maybe

to be commercially successful maybe there was pressure from their record

there was pressure from their record industry from publicists from managers

industry from publicists from managers who knows what and maybe in the short

who knows what and maybe in the short term

term they thought that was a win

they thought that was a win but I just feel strongly that meeting

but I just feel strongly that meeting some long term

some long term you lose something much more significant

you lose something much more significant than anything you might gain with that

than anything you might gain with that commercial absolutely and

commercial absolutely and each in in that process of

each in in that process of whittling away at yourself

whittling away at yourself over time

over time there's there's less of you to put into

there's there's less of you to put into the next one there's less you know it's

the next one there's less you know it's like you you really do like you get to a

like you you really do like you get to a point of who am I

point of who am I if if that's happened enough times

I mean I feel like for much of my life I've tried to perform and be someone who

I've tried to perform and be someone who I am not yes in order to get validation

I am not yes in order to get validation and a lot of that has come down to the

and a lot of that has come down to the programs the the ideas I took on as a

programs the the ideas I took on as a child

child um which was that in order to be loved

um which was that in order to be loved or certainly my perception I should say

or certainly my perception I should say because it's it's my perception yes my

because it's it's my perception yes my perception was that

perception was that I'm loved when I get top marks when I

I'm loved when I get top marks when I get straight A's when I'm number one yes

get straight A's when I'm number one yes because my parents were always driving

because my parents were always driving me to do that but yes you know just to

me to do that but yes you know just to Briefly summarize my parents immigrants

Briefly summarize my parents immigrants to the UK from India facing a lot of

to the UK from India facing a lot of discrimination a lot of struggle they

discrimination a lot of struggle they just want the best for their child

just want the best for their child absolutely they they that was their way

absolutely they they that was their way of showing love hey you be the best you

of showing love hey you be the best you can be

can be actually you're not gonna have the

actually you're not gonna have the problems that we've had

problems that we've had so same reality but two versions of that

so same reality but two versions of that reality two perceptions and so why I

reality two perceptions and so why I feel and I'd be interested in your

feel and I'd be interested in your thoughts on the art form of podcasting

thoughts on the art form of podcasting because you've now written a book you've

because you've now written a book you've been involved with many albums I know

been involved with many albums I know and I've listened to many of the

and I've listened to many of the episodes you did with broken record uh

episodes you did with broken record uh wonderful conversations that you've had

wonderful conversations that you've had with artists

with artists so I'm interested to see your view in

so I'm interested to see your view in the podcasting art form I feel that this

the podcasting art form I feel that this podcast

podcast you know I keep getting stopped by

you know I keep getting stopped by people who are listening to the show and

people who are listening to the show and telling me beautiful uh stories of the

telling me beautiful uh stories of the impact it's had on them which is really

impact it's had on them which is really nice to hear absolutely it's certainly

nice to hear absolutely it's certainly not ego elevating in a way that it would

not ego elevating in a way that it would have been 10 years ago because I'm not

have been 10 years ago because I'm not that person anymore I don't need that

that person anymore I don't need that validation but

validation but I think it's helped me more than anyone

I think it's helped me more than anyone like these are the conversations that

like these are the conversations that um nourish me that fuel me that help me

um nourish me that fuel me that help me understand myself yes

understand myself yes and unfortunately we're not in my studio

and unfortunately we're not in my studio you would have met my my videographer

you would have met my my videographer Gareth who is a mega fan of yours

Gareth who is a mega fan of yours actually Rick

actually Rick um but something Gareth only joined the

um but something Gareth only joined the team maybe two or three years ago when

team maybe two or three years ago when we we brought video into the production

we we brought video into the production process

process and Gareth probably spends as much time

and Gareth probably spends as much time with me as anyone outside my family

with me as anyone outside my family because he's in with me for every

because he's in with me for every conversation he sees me beforehand he

conversation he sees me beforehand he sees me after so he sees me with all the

sees me after so he sees me with all the the filters off as well

the filters off as well and he's been wonderful at helping us

and he's been wonderful at helping us work

work that this idea of

that this idea of performance

performance versus authenticity this whole idea that

versus authenticity this whole idea that he would spot that I was like

he would spot that I was like subtly different when the mic's rolling

subtly different when the mic's rolling the when the mic's not rolling

the when the mic's not rolling and so we've in a variety of ways just

and so we've in a variety of ways just been conscious aware of can

been conscious aware of can I show up

I show up as the same person

as the same person same thought process same intonation in

same thought process same intonation in my voice everything

my voice everything as if the mic isn't there and it's been

as if the mic isn't there and it's been really quite

really quite um it's just been a phenomenal

um it's just been a phenomenal experience because

performance I used to think performance was a good

I used to think performance was a good thing growing up you know I'm going to

thing growing up you know I'm going to now perform on stage I was in bands for

now perform on stage I was in bands for years Rick I've been a front running

years Rick I've been a front running band's a very loud vivacious front man

band's a very loud vivacious front man but that was a personality I put on to

but that was a personality I put on to hide a deep insecurity I realized and

hide a deep insecurity I realized and actually

actually my my only goal with each conversation

my my only goal with each conversation is

is is it a raw authentic conversation were

is it a raw authentic conversation were you as raw and as honest and as

you as raw and as honest and as unaltered in your tone of voice

unaltered in your tone of voice as you could be

as you could be and then if you have any comments on

and then if you have any comments on that

that it sounds that sounds um

it sounds that sounds um it sounds good like it's it sounds like

it sounds good like it's it sounds like I I want to hear it's one of the

I I want to hear it's one of the beautiful things about

beautiful things about one that you're not a journalist

one of the things I've noticed is that there's a there's a different

there's a there's a different conversation that

conversation that you have with the journalists than you

you have with the journalists than you have with a person and again not nothing

have with a person and again not nothing against journalists at all but the

against journalists at all but the nature of a journalist is different the

nature of a journalist is different the way the way a journalist asks questions

way the way a journalist asks questions is different than having a conversation

is different than having a conversation with someone and I think the podcasting

with someone and I think the podcasting Revolution is about this the benefit of

Revolution is about this the benefit of these long-form essentially unedited

these long-form essentially unedited heart-to-heart conversations and it's

heart-to-heart conversations and it's something that we very rarely get to

something that we very rarely get to hear it's we we in in

hear it's we we in in um in normal media life we get Snippets

um in normal media life we get Snippets and sound bites

and sound bites and

and often the Snippets and sound bites are

often the Snippets and sound bites are taken out of context or chosen for some

taken out of context or chosen for some Sensational reason and we don't we don't

Sensational reason and we don't we don't really get to know people and this

really get to know people and this format is incredible because we're

format is incredible because we're spending hours together having a

spending hours together having a conversation and there'll be parts that

conversation and there'll be parts that are really interesting and parts that

are really interesting and parts that are less interesting and parts that are

are less interesting and parts that are energetic and parts that are not and

energetic and parts that are not and it's real it's this is a real

it's real it's this is a real conversation and

conversation and I think it's

I think it's more rooted in

more rooted in reality than

like a curated experience of life it's more real

when you were having these conversations for the

having these conversations for the broken record podcasts with

broken record podcasts with you know the Chili Peppers Springsteen

you know the Chili Peppers Springsteen Lenny Kravitz I'm halfway through that

Lenny Kravitz I'm halfway through that one which is a huge Lenny fan it's a

one which is a huge Lenny fan it's a really eye-opening for me

really eye-opening for me um

um how do you prepare for those

how do you prepare for those conversations

conversations not much yeah not much depends on who

not much yeah not much depends on who the artist is if it's an artist I know

the artist is if it's an artist I know I may think about it the morning of the

I may think about it the morning of the the podcast and make a list of possible

the podcast and make a list of possible questions just in case

it doesn't come up in the conversation like a backup plan

like a backup plan um if it's an artist I don't know I may

um if it's an artist I don't know I may listen to some music do a little

listen to some music do a little research I might even listen to another

research I might even listen to another interview just to get a sense of who

interview just to get a sense of who they are

they are so I'm not surprised when I when I'm

so I'm not surprised when I when I'm speaking to them

speaking to them um

um that's pretty much that's pretty much it

that's pretty much that's pretty much it I I go in pretty unprepared honestly

I I go in pretty unprepared honestly that's interesting I'm trying to think

that's interesting I'm trying to think in my head how would that

in my head how would that be different for when you're about to

be different for when you're about to work with a

work with a band or a solo artist on a new album

band or a solo artist on a new album different art forms

different art forms obviously in a podcast

obviously in a podcast you are required to

you are required to not not necessarily the leader

not not necessarily the leader conversation but

conversation but um be on Mike yes

um be on Mike yes like if you if you if you're working

like if you if you if you're working with a band you've never worked with

with a band you've never worked with before

before do you go in cold fresh yes less

do you go in cold fresh yes less prepared even less prepared absolutely

prepared even less prepared absolutely because you don't want what anything to

because you don't want what anything to be colored by a previous yeah I don't

be colored by a previous yeah I don't want to have I don't want to come in

want to have I don't want to come in with any baggage whatsoever I want to

with any baggage whatsoever I want to listen to what the artist tells me

listen to what the artist tells me and I want to

and I want to um whatever's interesting to me in the

um whatever's interesting to me in the conversation I'll ask questions to learn

conversation I'll ask questions to learn what what is helpful for me to know in

what what is helpful for me to know in that moment yeah

that moment yeah super interesting yeah

super interesting yeah and I have no uh agenda other than if

and I have no uh agenda other than if we're going to make something together

we're going to make something together that'd be as good as it could be

that'd be as good as it could be whatever it is so I I don't um

whatever it is so I I don't um like if there's an artist who I I know

like if there's an artist who I I know their music well I might have not not

their music well I might have not not even uh

even uh on purpose there may be in the back of

on purpose there may be in the back of my mind it would be fun to hear them

my mind it would be fun to hear them doing this you know in the back of my

doing this you know in the back of my mind some style of

mind some style of some style of project for them to do but

some style of project for them to do but I would never offer that to start with

I would never offer that to start with it would always be a let me hear what

it would always be a let me hear what you want to do or yeah and then I I you

you want to do or yeah and then I I you know there may be some idea that

know there may be some idea that again a backup plan if nothing else

again a backup plan if nothing else works there might be an idea but I would

works there might be an idea but I would never assume that any idea I had would

never assume that any idea I had would be uh the right idea

be uh the right idea what kind of process do you need to go

what kind of process do you need to go through or are there sets

through or are there sets practices that you engage in I don't

practices that you engage in I don't know artists rocking up a noon let's say

know artists rocking up a noon let's say in the two hours prior to that

in the two hours prior to that do you have to go through an intentional

do you have to go through an intentional process of

process of clearing out the noise so you are as

clearing out the noise so you are as fresh and as uncolored

fresh and as uncolored when you meet them when you hear their

when you meet them when you hear their music like I guess I'm thinking you're

music like I guess I'm thinking you're driving to a studio to meet someone yes

driving to a studio to meet someone yes and you have the radio playing so you've

and you have the radio playing so you've got other music that might be I might do

got other music that might be I might do that you might do that I might do that

that you might do that I might do that but you're not worried that that would

but you're not worried that that would um

um because when we're never the same person

because when we're never the same person are we we're not the same person on a

are we we're not the same person on a Mondays we're on a Tuesday right so

Mondays we're on a Tuesday right so everything you do yes or everything

everything you do yes or everything you've done in your entire life yes

you've done in your entire life yes kind of plays into who you are in that

kind of plays into who you are in that moment when you're listening absolutely

moment when you're listening absolutely and so how do you deal with that whether

and so how do you deal with that whether it's sunny or raining whether you know

it's sunny or raining whether you know yeah everything

yeah everything it just it just is it's not yeah it just

it just it just is it's not yeah it just is and also considering what you just

is and also considering what you just said that all of our Lives play into

said that all of our Lives play into this meeting

this meeting whatever happened in the last 10 minutes

whatever happened in the last 10 minutes isn't more important than everything

isn't more important than everything else so do you know what I mean in the

else so do you know what I mean in the context of

context of a lot has happened for us to get to this

a lot has happened for us to get to this moment and uh I'm just you know thankful

moment and uh I'm just you know thankful to be here

we mentioned ego in artists um

um I guess all of us have gotten elements

I guess all of us have gotten elements of ego that can wear its head at various

of ego that can wear its head at various times depending on what's going on

times depending on what's going on I would say both ego and insecurity like

I would say both ego and insecurity like both sides of it are always at play you

both sides of it are always at play you might see someone who demonstrates it

might see someone who demonstrates it through what seems like an egomaniac

through what seems like an egomaniac perspective yet underneath that is this

perspective yet underneath that is this very insecure person

very insecure person so it's it's always just like a sliding

so it's it's always just like a sliding scale between uh

shy and outgoing

and outgoing and uh

and uh wild ego tremendous insecurity

wild ego tremendous insecurity it's just like a seesaw

it's just like a seesaw yeah that's an interesting Once Upon

yeah that's an interesting Once Upon there

there what's it like for you

what's it like for you because you've said earlier on in this

because you've said earlier on in this conversation that

conversation that you're still basically just kind of

you're still basically just kind of doing your hobby and yes it's create

doing your hobby and yes it's create this wonderful life for you and sure

this wonderful life for you and sure it's technically work because there's

it's technically work because there's schedules and obligations things you

schedules and obligations things you have to fulfill but really it's just you

have to fulfill but really it's just you you know engaging in a hobby that you

you know engaging in a hobby that you love yes which I think is everyone's

love yes which I think is everyone's dream really to be able to do a job like

dream really to be able to do a job like that I certainly feel I've got a huge

that I certainly feel I've got a huge element of that in my life now yes

element of that in my life now yes um

um if you read the Press on yourself

if you read the Press on yourself it will consistently say things like

it will consistently say things like greatest record producer of all time you

greatest record producer of all time you know one of the most influential people

know one of the most influential people on the planet or whatever kinds of

on the planet or whatever kinds of things that Society has put on to you

things that Society has put on to you so how do you deal with that let's say

so how do you deal with that let's say you're about to go somewhere you're

you're about to go somewhere you're introduced

introduced like that it's it's intriguing for me

like that it's it's intriguing for me how do you what happens in your minds

how do you what happens in your minds when you hear that

when you hear that I I just think it's all like a funny

I I just think it's all like a funny story you know I I know that I know I'm

story you know I I know that I know I'm the same person I've always been

the same person I've always been it's fascinating

it's fascinating to know that that's the perception

to know that that's the perception it's fascinating that some of it may be

it's fascinating that some of it may be true some of it may not be true it's all

true some of it may not be true it's all just it's just interesting it's all

just it's just interesting it's all interesting yeah it's like wow can you

interesting yeah it's like wow can you believe that it obviously when someone

believe that it obviously when someone says something really good about me on

says something really good about me on the one hand it's like I'm glad they

the one hand it's like I'm glad they think that and that makes me

think that and that makes me uncomfortable both of those feelings

uncomfortable both of those feelings those feelings come up

those feelings come up um

um and it usually feels like I'd like that

and it usually feels like I'd like that to get out of the way so that we could

to get out of the way so that we could engage with whatever because it seems

engage with whatever because it seems like it's not important to me it's the

like it's not important to me it's the same the reason the book doesn't tell

same the reason the book doesn't tell any stories about my life or any of the

any stories about my life or any of the artists I work with it's a distraction

artists I work with it's a distraction from this from the material and my

from this from the material and my interest in life is in the material not

interest in life is in the material not in the stories about it or The

in the stories about it or The Sensational nature of it I like the um I

Sensational nature of it I like the um I like to close my eyes and listen to the

like to close my eyes and listen to the music I like to um engage in a

music I like to um engage in a conversation and

conversation and you know meet somebody as who they are

you know meet somebody as who they are it's a very interesting thing that some

it's a very interesting thing that some people the idea of this putting on a

people the idea of this putting on a performance or a facade

performance or a facade it's um

it's um it creates a real Distortion in the

it creates a real Distortion in the reality field it's like if you're in a

reality field it's like if you're in a relationship with someone

relationship with someone and

and uh you lie to them or they lie to you

uh you lie to them or they lie to you it's like are you even really together

it's like are you even really together do you know what I'm saying it's like

do you know what I'm saying it's like all we have is this shared understanding

all we have is this shared understanding of reality yeah

of reality yeah and

and if we can't talk about the same reality

if we can't talk about the same reality are we even do even do we know each

are we even do even do we know each other at all are we even in the same

other at all are we even in the same place you know it's like it's one of us

place you know it's like it's one of us is in a one of us is believing something

is in a one of us is believing something that the other person knows is not true

that the other person knows is not true and it's like we're not we're in two

and it's like we're not we're in two different realms

different realms yeah it's funny that a lot of people

yeah it's funny that a lot of people when they meet a long-term partner the

when they meet a long-term partner the first part or certainly the early parts

first part or certainly the early parts of the relationship is often

of the relationship is often facilitated by alcohol yeah if you think

facilitated by alcohol yeah if you think about what alcohol does to us and how it

about what alcohol does to us and how it changes us and our behaviors and our

changes us and our behaviors and our patterns and our you know those

patterns and our you know those insecurities can be dampened so it's

insecurities can be dampened so it's interesting that many people Bond

as a version of themselves who they they simply are not yes although it may be

simply are not yes although it may be because it lets down inhibitions I don't

because it lets down inhibitions I don't drink first of all but I will say

drink first of all but I will say because uh alcohol lowers inhibitions

because uh alcohol lowers inhibitions somebody might say something that they

somebody might say something that they would hold back that's true

would hold back that's true in polite company yeah

in polite company yeah nothing's too in the extremes hey it's

nothing's too in the extremes hey it's no it's hard to know it's hard to know

no it's hard to know it's hard to know hopefully also if someone meditates that

hopefully also if someone meditates that might be the case they might be real you

might be the case they might be real you know they might be real

know they might be real have you ever had a case where you felt

have you ever had a case where you felt that artists in your presence because of

that artists in your presence because of the the story around you

the the story around you feel unable to share their truth oh man

feel unable to share their truth oh man this you know Rick Rubin says the vocal

this you know Rick Rubin says the vocal needs changing there or Rick Rubin so

needs changing there or Rick Rubin so guitar isn't quite right there like have

guitar isn't quite right there like have you ever have you ever detected

you ever have you ever detected you know maybe some people Pleasers or

you know maybe some people Pleasers or people who felt quite insecure not

people who felt quite insecure not trusting themselves in your presence

trusting themselves in your presence because of this story albeit a

because of this story albeit a subjective story because art is

subjective story because art is subjective

subjective um have you ever detected that

um have you ever detected that it has probably happened the nature of

it has probably happened the nature of the process is it's a long process yeah

the process is it's a long process yeah and like maybe when we first met each

and like maybe when we first met each other we had thoughts about each other

other we had thoughts about each other whatever it is yes but now that we've

whatever it is yes but now that we've been talking for however long we've been

been talking for however long we've been talking we're just talking it's like

talking we're just talking it's like it's like that it's like whatever

it's like that it's like whatever uh ideas anyone comes in with get

uh ideas anyone comes in with get dispelled very quickly when you just

dispelled very quickly when you just have a conversation and it just becomes

have a conversation and it just becomes people talking yeah

people talking yeah this is one of the reasons I I do long

this is one of the reasons I I do long form yeah uh and

form yeah uh and so the interesting it really speaks to

so the interesting it really speaks to to some of the ideas in the book this

to some of the ideas in the book this idea that you make the art you want to

idea that you make the art you want to make that's in your hearts because

make that's in your hearts because as we're having this conversation Rick

as we're having this conversation Rick you know it's just over four and a half

you know it's just over four and a half years since this show started and uh

years since this show started and uh it's funny just before we started you

it's funny just before we started you said oh you got in early

said oh you got in early and I was like no when I started

and I was like no when I started podcasting I thought I was late yes uh I

podcasting I thought I was late yes uh I thought oh man this has been going for

thought oh man this has been going for years you know is there any room and you

years you know is there any room and you know I I I'd like to believe that

know I I I'd like to believe that there's always uh space for Quality

there's always uh space for Quality content absolutely you I have to believe

content absolutely you I have to believe that absolutely um otherwise what's the

that absolutely um otherwise what's the point absolutely

point absolutely um

um but at the time in the UK podcast

but at the time in the UK podcast industry what they what they would say

industry what they what they would say is that you cannot or you should not do

is that you cannot or you should not do a podcast more than 40 minutes long yeah

a podcast more than 40 minutes long yeah the average commute time is 40 minutes

the average commute time is 40 minutes that's how long they should be and my

that's how long they should be and my first few were at that length

first few were at that length I just something didn't

I just something didn't sit right with me and over the next few

sit right with me and over the next few months little by little they started

months little by little they started getting longer and longer and longer and

getting longer and longer and longer and as they got longer

as they got longer they got more and more popular which I

they got more and more popular which I found was really really interesting

found was really really interesting and

and there wasn't that many people on this

there wasn't that many people on this side of the Atlantic at that time doing

side of the Atlantic at that time doing long form you know there was you know

long form you know there was you know like Tim Ferriss in America and Rich

like Tim Ferriss in America and Rich Roll these guys were in great long form

Roll these guys were in great long form there but it wasn't really happening

there but it wasn't really happening here it started to change a little bit

here it started to change a little bit here but still there's a bias towards

here but still there's a bias towards shorter content

shorter content which I found interesting but

which I found interesting but I think this speaks I think to the

I think this speaks I think to the message you've tried to put out

message you've tried to put out throughout your career that make the art

throughout your career that make the art that moves you

that moves you how do you see the selling off the Arts

how do you see the selling off the Arts compared to the making of the Arts and

compared to the making of the Arts and it's something you said before Rick

it's something you said before Rick about when Snippets are taken

about when Snippets are taken to be sensationalist or whatever then

to be sensationalist or whatever then that can also be a conflict I I I really

that can also be a conflict I I I really struggle with that with this show

struggle with that with this show because

because the conversations are 90 minutes to two

the conversations are 90 minutes to two hours maybe two and a half hours

but then we will then take clips

take clips to put on platforms like Instagram to

to put on platforms like Instagram to raise awareness

raise awareness of hopefully a wonderful to our

of hopefully a wonderful to our conversation yes

conversation yes but it's almost in conflicts with what

but it's almost in conflicts with what we do because not really because that's

we do because not really because that's a commercial okay it's a different it's

a commercial okay it's a different it's a different it's different you're okay

a different it's different you're okay with that absolutely ethically you think

with that absolutely ethically you think that's okay absolutely because again

that's okay absolutely because again it's

it's if you want more this is where you're

if you want more this is where you're doing that in service of this you're

doing that in service of this you're doing the short form to draw attention

doing the short form to draw attention to the long form and the long form is

to the long form and the long form is the the thing that you are making that

the the thing that you are making that you're proud of

you're proud of you you

you you any way that you can spread the

any way that you can spread the information in a way that someone

information in a way that someone engages with the thing that you're doing

engages with the thing that you're doing that seems okay yeah

that seems okay yeah it's a different thing it's like same

it's a different thing it's like same like any thoughts about how to release a

like any thoughts about how to release a release a project how to put it into the

release a project how to put it into the world that starts after you've made it

world that starts after you've made it you make it first and it's just a whole

you make it first and it's just a whole new job that starts after you've made

new job that starts after you've made the art as good as it could be then okay

the art as good as it could be then okay how are we gonna turn people on to this

how are we gonna turn people on to this if you start thinking about that before

if you start thinking about that before it's gonna undermine the

it's gonna undermine the the DNA of it yeah it becomes a mark you

the DNA of it yeah it becomes a mark you know the the project becomes

know the the project becomes a marketing part of a marketing vehicle

a marketing part of a marketing vehicle yeah but if you make this beautiful

yeah but if you make this beautiful thing first and then okay it's done I've

thing first and then okay it's done I've signed off the Art's done now how do we

signed off the Art's done now how do we turn people on to it and then it's a

turn people on to it and then it's a whole new really creative adventure and

whole new really creative adventure and what is it a different skill set

what is it a different skill set completely different completely

completely different completely different yeah

different yeah you said you've been writing this book

you said you've been writing this book for seven years yeah for over seven

for seven years yeah for over seven years around seven years

years around seven years the process started seven years ago

the process started seven years ago I'm interested in your philosophy on

I'm interested in your philosophy on deadlines

deadlines did you have a deadline for this book I

did you have a deadline for this book I did not

did not so

so The Wider question is for me the wider

The Wider question is for me the wider question is

question is how do you know

when the art is finished

is finished and can be shared and released

and can be shared and released something I learned through the work

something I learned through the work working on the book

working on the book is this something I'm not not good at or

is this something I'm not not good at or at least wasn't good at prior to the

at least wasn't good at prior to the book

book I'm not a great finisher I'm a better

I'm not a great finisher I'm a better experimenter than a finisher so I can

experimenter than a finisher so I can Tinker away for a long time

Tinker away for a long time finishing is difficult I like I love

finishing is difficult I like I love when it's done so I don't have to think

when it's done so I don't have to think about it anymore I like that I like when

about it anymore I like that I like when it's done but getting to the point of

it's done but getting to the point of saying it's done

saying it's done that there are no more options is a you

that there are no more options is a you know closing options is not something

know closing options is not something that that's easy for me to do

that that's easy for me to do what I came to realize is that there are

what I came to realize is that there are different points in a project and in the

different points in a project and in the book we talk about a seed phase where

book we talk about a seed phase where you're collecting ideas

you're collecting ideas the experimentation phase where you're

the experimentation phase where you're taking those seeds and

taking those seeds and seeing what they can turn into then

seeing what they can turn into then there's a craft phase where after the

there's a craft phase where after the seed germinates now we bring

seed germinates now we bring our own filter into it to see if we can

our own filter into it to see if we can um how can we shape this thing that the

um how can we shape this thing that the Universe wants to give us

Universe wants to give us and then the Final Phase is editing and

and then the Final Phase is editing and all of the pieces of the finishing part

all of the pieces of the finishing part and in the past I looked at those all as

and in the past I looked at those all as part of this open-ended it can go on

part of this open-ended it can go on forever yeah and I came to realize the

forever yeah and I came to realize the only parts

only parts it's really the first especially the

it's really the first especially the first two

first two and sometimes some of the third step

and sometimes some of the third step where we need time but the finishing the

where we need time but the finishing the last piece of it

last piece of it you can set a deadline there and it

you can set a deadline there and it actually might be a good thing and it's

actually might be a good thing and it's not and again I only learned that

not and again I only learned that through working on the book and seeing

through working on the book and seeing where my method doesn't work as well as

where my method doesn't work as well as it could yeah

it could yeah that we've already done all the tests

that we've already done all the tests now it's purely

now it's purely there's no there really isn't more

there's no there really isn't more experimentation to do we've cracked the

experimentation to do we've cracked the code

code and once we've cracked the code

and once we've cracked the code setting a time to get it out is can be a

setting a time to get it out is can be a really really helpful thing yeah I found

really really helpful thing yeah I found that so interesting right something I've

that so interesting right something I've thought a lot about and I guess I have a

thought a lot about and I guess I have a slightly different perspective and I

slightly different perspective and I wonder

wonder there's no right or wrong also it's like

there's no right or wrong also it's like that I just wonder what you're you know

that I just wonder what you're you know you're someone who I I always have a

you're someone who I I always have a huge amount of respect for so I'm I'm

huge amount of respect for so I'm I'm you know fascinated by your opinion on

you know fascinated by your opinion on this

if I didn't have deadlines there's no way I would have written five

there's no way I would have written five books in the past five years yes no way

books in the past five years yes no way yes it just would not have happened yes

yes it just would not have happened yes and I have some author friends

and I have some author friends one very successful author in America

one very successful author in America who

who you know four or five years you know

you know four or five years you know he'd had a big hit book and you know it

he'd had a big hit book and you know it was changing people's lives and

was changing people's lives and four or five years he's I'm still

four or five years he's I'm still working on my boat still working I said

working on my boat still working I said hey honestly I think you need a deadline

hey honestly I think you need a deadline because

because I've heard some of you early stuff three

I've heard some of you early stuff three years ago it was great

years ago it was great um because I'm not quite I've still got

um because I'm not quite I've still got to work through the ideas and I get that

to work through the ideas and I get that I don't think there's a hard and fast

I don't think there's a hard and fast rule but my view has become and I guess

rule but my view has become and I guess we all tell ourselves the story that

we all tell ourselves the story that works that suits our life so maybe I'm

works that suits our life so maybe I'm telling myself a story here but

telling myself a story here but I just see a piece of art as a snapshot

I just see a piece of art as a snapshot in time yes

in time yes because that's all there ever can be so

because that's all there ever can be so when I finish a manuscript what I've

when I finish a manuscript what I've it's been through edits

it's been through edits tweet said I've gone away from I've come

tweet said I've gone away from I've come back to it and it's the date to go to

back to it and it's the date to go to print and which Publishers we cannot

print and which Publishers we cannot make any more changes even if you send

make any more changes even if you send us any some of those emails in a few

us any some of those emails in a few weeks like you've done before yes we're

weeks like you've done before yes we're done now yes

done now yes I've learned to embrace that again oh

I've learned to embrace that again oh that's part of the process it can only

that's part of the process it can only ever be as good as I can make it at the

ever be as good as I can make it at the point they press print yes because my

point they press print yes because my thoughts about these ideas don't just

thoughts about these ideas don't just suddenly stop yes so even when it's

suddenly stop yes so even when it's being printed

being printed I'm seeing things in the world I'm

I'm seeing things in the world I'm coming up with new ideas oh had I if I

coming up with new ideas oh had I if I could change that manuscript I would yes

could change that manuscript I would yes and so I I give a lot of authors come to

and so I I give a lot of authors come to me for advice and I say guys listen take

me for advice and I say guys listen take the pressure off yourself right it's a

the pressure off yourself right it's a snapshot in time true sorry interrupt if

snapshot in time true sorry interrupt if you are enjoying this content there's

you are enjoying this content there's loads more just like it on my channel so

loads more just like it on my channel so please do take a moment to press

please do take a moment to press subscribe hit the notification Bell and

subscribe hit the notification Bell and now back to the conversation

now back to the conversation so what's your perspective on that given

so what's your perspective on that given what you just said because it's it's

what you just said because it's it's similar but it's slightly different

similar but it's slightly different isn't it it is it's um I I do believe

isn't it it is it's um I I do believe that it works a snapshot in time I think

that it works a snapshot in time I think that's in some ways

that's in some ways without knowing that

without knowing that it's nearly impossible to put anything

it's nearly impossible to put anything out yeah so it is true that it's a

out yeah so it is true that it's a snapshot in time and it's all

snapshot in time and it's all essentially a diary

um I I think it really depends on what it

I I think it really depends on what it is that you're making like also if

is that you're making like also if you're let's say you're a newspaper

you're let's say you're a newspaper reporter and the newspaper comes out

reporter and the newspaper comes out every day

every day obviously the amount of time and

obviously the amount of time and attention that goes into each article is

attention that goes into each article is going to be different than if you're

going to be different than if you're writing the the one book you write a

writing the the one book you write a year and if you write one book every

year and if you write one book every five years the time and attention that

five years the time and attention that goes into that book is going to be

goes into that book is going to be different than the one that you write in

different than the one that you write in one year it just is the nature of time

one year it just is the nature of time and I don't think there's a a correct

and I don't think there's a a correct schedule for any of these things you

schedule for any of these things you know you're on the schedule of this is

know you're on the schedule of this is what I can put out once a year and this

what I can put out once a year and this is the schedule I like and there's

is the schedule I like and there's nothing wrong with that there's certain

nothing wrong with that there's certain art certain musicians who put out an

art certain musicians who put out an album every three to you know three or

album every three to you know three or four years and then there are some

four years and then there are some artists who put out an album every year

artists who put out an album every year and one's not right and one's not wrong

and one's not right and one's not wrong it's it's uh and there's also a habit

it's it's uh and there's also a habit involved I know um with the artists that

involved I know um with the artists that I work on I've worked with for a long

I work on I've worked with for a long time

time we tend to overwrite I I like this

we tend to overwrite I I like this process of like for example with the the

process of like for example with the the chili peppers if they're going to be uh

chili peppers if they're going to be uh 12 songs on an album we might record 30

12 songs on an album we might record 30 or 35 songs we might finish 35 songs to

or 35 songs we might finish 35 songs to have 12 on an album so every album we

have 12 on an album so every album we put out in some ways is a greatest hits

put out in some ways is a greatest hits of three albums put into one

of three albums put into one and

and that's just a habit I got into of uh and

that's just a habit I got into of uh and and not all artists will go you know not

and not all artists will go you know not all artists are up for that some artists

all artists are up for that some artists you know write eight songs and think

you know write eight songs and think okay maybe I need one more to be done

okay maybe I need one more to be done and that's all they're willing to do so

and that's all they're willing to do so it really depends on it depends on the

it really depends on it depends on the artist and again there's no right or

artist and again there's no right or wrong these are just different ways of

wrong these are just different ways of approaching it yeah there is there is I

approaching it yeah there is there is I do believe that the more you have to

do believe that the more you have to choose from

choose from chances are it'll be better I think

chances are it'll be better I think you know if there's who's to say that

you know if there's who's to say that the first five songs you write are going

the first five songs you write are going to be better than the last five of 20. I

to be better than the last five of 20. I don't know we don't know and we won't

don't know we don't know and we won't know that till we get to the 20. yeah

know that till we get to the 20. yeah because in the moment you think those

because in the moment you think those first five are the best five absolutely

first five are the best five absolutely you think oh man these are awesome yeah

you think oh man these are awesome yeah definitely going on the elbows yes yeah

definitely going on the elbows yes yeah yeah so it's hard to say it's really

yeah so it's hard to say it's really hard to say yeah I remember

hard to say yeah I remember um an interview Bono gave in the 90s

um an interview Bono gave in the 90s about the pop album and I think this

about the pop album and I think this illustrates the point beautifully for

illustrates the point beautifully for good or For Worse potentially

good or For Worse potentially but he said

but he said words to the effects off and you may

words to the effects off and you may know this better than than me being so

know this better than than me being so close to the music industry like being

close to the music industry like being in the industry but

in the industry but you know as a Avenue music fan I would

you know as a Avenue music fan I would consume CDs music read interviews by

consume CDs music read interviews by bootlegs everything so I would the bands

bootlegs everything so I would the bands I liked I knew everything about them

I liked I knew everything about them um

um Bono said that pop wasn't finished when

Bono said that pop wasn't finished when they put it out the problem was that

they put it out the problem was that they had a sold out stadium tour across

they had a sold out stadium tour across the world but the pop stadium tour

the world but the pop stadium tour so they just had to put the album out as

so they just had to put the album out as good as they can make it at that time

good as they can make it at that time yes and over the first 12 months on tour

yes and over the first 12 months on tour it says these songs evolved hugely to

it says these songs evolved hugely to the point I think where had they

the point I think where had they recorded it or had they finished the

recorded it or had they finished the album A year later it would have been a

album A year later it would have been a different album yes

different album yes and I think that it's funny how back

and I think that it's funny how back then I wasn't

then I wasn't um it wasn't a doctor I wasn't a podcast

um it wasn't a doctor I wasn't a podcast host I wasn't an author something about

host I wasn't an author something about that stuck in my brain from the 90s oh

that stuck in my brain from the 90s oh oh there was a deadline but it wasn't

oh there was a deadline but it wasn't quite ready and I think

quite ready and I think I have thought about that interview so

I have thought about that interview so much over the past years as I've gone

much over the past years as I've gone into this now public facing creative

into this now public facing creative career as a podcaster and as an author

career as a podcaster and as an author and it I think that has also helped me

and it I think that has also helped me realize or come to the conclusion that

realize or come to the conclusion that it's only Everest snapshot in time yes

it's only Everest snapshot in time yes I've heard a different version of that

I've heard a different version of that story

story that the album was actually better

that the album was actually better earlier oh wow and that they went past

earlier oh wow and that they went past it and that there were times that there

it and that there were times that there were like rough mixes of the album that

were like rough mixes of the album that were much better than the album I don't

were much better than the album I don't know if that's true but it's just

know if that's true but it's just interesting it's interesting even for

interesting it's interesting even for the Same album was it too early was it

the Same album was it too early was it too late who knows and I guess you

too late who knows and I guess you presumably will have been in that

presumably will have been in that position before was it was it better

position before was it was it better before we started fasting around and

before we started fasting around and chasing things was it better three weeks

chasing things was it better three weeks ago I'm really into this yeah and

ago I'm really into this yeah and uh I never assume that because we work

uh I never assume that because we work on it longer it's getting better

on it longer it's getting better longer does not make it better same with

longer does not make it better same with writing yeah you could sometimes go I

writing yeah you could sometimes go I have it oh my god I've messed it up now

have it oh my god I've messed it up now I've tried to elongate that points yes

I've tried to elongate that points yes and that's where collaboration comes in

and that's where collaboration comes in it's absolutely it's better before

it's absolutely it's better before absolutely and also we can even do it

absolutely and also we can even do it with ourselves because I always refer

with ourselves because I always refer back like um there'll be a moment when I

back like um there'll be a moment when I feel like we have something like early

feel like we have something like early in the process of like this this is the

in the process of like this this is the clue of what we're gonna

clue of what we're gonna you know like this the the seed that we

you know like this the the seed that we love the the demo the uh it might even

love the the demo the uh it might even be a snippet of just uh the way the feel

be a snippet of just uh the way the feel of a certain piece of music or it could

of a certain piece of music or it could be a tiny little fragment but this

be a tiny little fragment but this fragment is the reason we're gonna go on

fragment is the reason we're gonna go on this journey

this journey I always refer back to that fragment

I always refer back to that fragment later on and say are we as good as the

later on and say are we as good as the fragment are we better than the fragment

fragment are we better than the fragment are we worse than the fragment

are we worse than the fragment because if it's it's fine to be

because if it's it's fine to be different than the fragment but if it's

different than the fragment but if it's not at least as good as the fragment

not at least as good as the fragment it's all been a waste of time

it's all been a waste of time that must be really hot yeah well I'll

that must be really hot yeah well I'll give you a specific example the first

give you a specific example the first album I put out with Johnny Cash was

album I put out with Johnny Cash was essentially Johnny Cash in my living

essentially Johnny Cash in my living room playing me songs on a guitar that

room playing me songs on a guitar that was not the intention for that album the

was not the intention for that album the original intention was those were we

original intention was those were we were figuring out what songs to do

were figuring out what songs to do he was demonstrating the songs for me

he was demonstrating the songs for me and then we went to different Studios

and then we went to different Studios with different bands and tried recording

with different bands and tried recording the songs in different ways and none of

the songs in different ways and none of them were as interesting as what he

them were as interesting as what he played in the living room for me and

played in the living room for me and that's what ended up being the album for

that's what ended up being the album for many people because they went to the

many people because they went to the issue and expense of going into the

issue and expense of going into the studio with musicians the studio version

studio with musicians the studio version would be the album in our case it's like

would be the album in our case it's like what's the best of what we have well

what's the best of what we have well actually that original

actually that original homemade demo was more interesting than

homemade demo was more interesting than the produced version so we put out the

the produced version so we put out the homemade demo version

is it possible for that to be a perfect album

I don't know there are some that when I listen to them they feel perfect to me

listen to them they feel perfect to me and and when I say perfect like

and and when I say perfect like perfect and it's with all of its

perfect and it's with all of its imperfections like perfect for what it

imperfections like perfect for what it is you know for me when I listen to The

is you know for me when I listen to The White Album it feels like I wouldn't

White Album it feels like I wouldn't change anything you know I mean not that

change anything you know I mean not that I could but when I listened to it's like

I could but when I listened to it's like yeah that's how that goes is it the

yeah that's how that goes is it the Angelo album called Voodoo that I love I

Angelo album called Voodoo that I love I wish I made that album It's A Beautiful

wish I made that album It's A Beautiful album and that one when I listened to it

album and that one when I listened to it like

like there's nothing else like that it's so

there's nothing else like that it's so good yeah but uh love forever changes is

good yeah but uh love forever changes is one that um

one that um when I listen to It's it's a unique

when I listen to It's it's a unique one-of-a-kind album no one made an album

one-of-a-kind album no one made an album before it or after it like it and it's

before it or after it like it and it's magnificent

so interesting he said to you yeah it's only to me exactly you can only ever be

only to me exactly you can only ever be no there's and there's no there's no and

no there's and there's no there's no and I'm sure that there are many fans of you

I'm sure that there are many fans of you know their favorite artists made albums

know their favorite artists made albums that are that in their mind are perfect

that are that in their mind are perfect and it's great it's great it's only we

and it's great it's great it's only we all have our own stories you know it's

all have our own stories you know it's nothing nothing is true it's how we

nothing nothing is true it's how we perceive it

perceive it I've struggled with perfectionism a lot

I've struggled with perfectionism a lot of my life and um I've again I

of my life and um I've again I I keep bringing up how this podcast has

I keep bringing up how this podcast has changed my life one of the things that's

changed my life one of the things that's done that I haven't mentioned so far is

done that I haven't mentioned so far is it's helped me to embrace imperfection

it's helped me to embrace imperfection yes yes because on these long-form

yes yes because on these long-form conversations it's not about perfection

conversations it's not about perfection actually if there's a stumble if you

actually if there's a stumble if you don't quite get your words out the right

don't quite get your words out the right way if someone comes in with coffee it's

way if someone comes in with coffee it's I think that's the vibe you know it's

I think that's the vibe you know it's the

the I think I think podcasts are the modern

I think I think podcasts are the modern day campfire in a massive way I think

day campfire in a massive way I think that's why these long form conversations

that's why these long form conversations are taking off all around the world

are taking off all around the world people are feeling a deep sense of

people are feeling a deep sense of connection

connection I remember when I was at University

I remember when I was at University Edinburgh where I was at Medical School

Edinburgh where I was at Medical School I played in a band that's kind of

I played in a band that's kind of a huge Focus for me in Edinburgh and

a huge Focus for me in Edinburgh and we were in the studio near Edinburgh

we were in the studio near Edinburgh airport called split level and it was

airport called split level and it was really exciting for us because it was

really exciting for us because it was the first time we'd been in a recording

the first time we'd been in a recording studio you know so you know you're a

studio you know so you know you're a Young Band trying to make your way and

Young Band trying to make your way and oh this is a studio

oh this is a studio and again I look back now and think I

and again I look back now and think I would bring perform oh I mean it's in

would bring perform oh I mean it's in the studio so it's got to be a certain

the studio so it's got to be a certain way which again is I didn't realize at

way which again is I didn't realize at the time actually but it's taking you

the time actually but it's taking you out of authenticity and into a some sort

out of authenticity and into a some sort of

of performance aspect which I thought I

performance aspect which I thought I needed to do but I remember there was a

needed to do but I remember there was a there was a song I wrote called tell me

there was a song I wrote called tell me why and

why and we went in there all weekend I must have

we went in there all weekend I must have recorded a vocal track

recorded a vocal track 30 or 40 times

30 or 40 times oh no it's not quite right not quite

oh no it's not quite right not quite right and then with the engineer we went

right and then with the engineer we went through line by line picking the perfect

through line by line picking the perfect line and the finished version or that

line and the finished version or that iteration

iteration probably had 20 different takes in it

probably had 20 different takes in it each line perfect in its own right

each line perfect in its own right you play it afterwards sounded awful

you play it afterwards sounded awful and I was like

and I was like I don't get it I don't think there's 20

I don't get it I don't think there's 20 perfect lines in there but

perfect lines in there but the soul was missing there was just

the soul was missing there was just something so I think I didn't realize at

something so I think I didn't realize at the time I can articulate it now looking

the time I can articulate it now looking back

back but is that something you've seen happen

but is that something you've seen happen in the studio before is that something

in the studio before is that something you still experience absolutely and

you still experience absolutely and we'll you know we'll often do multiple

we'll you know we'll often do multiple vocal takes and put them together and

vocal takes and put them together and sometimes it's not about looking for

sometimes it's not about looking for Perfection it's looking for the thing

Perfection it's looking for the thing that interests you you know you're

that interests you you know you're you're listening for

you're listening for which lines sound interesting and which

which lines sound interesting and which ones work best together more than is

ones work best together more than is each one perfect

each one perfect but there are lots there are lots of

but there are lots there are lots of Records where um lots of recordings

Records where um lots of recordings where every line is perfect and they

where every line is perfect and they work you know if we listen to uh Earth

work you know if we listen to uh Earth Wind and Fire records are fairly perfect

Wind and Fire records are fairly perfect and they're magnificent yeah so again

and they're magnificent yeah so again there's no right or wrong that's not

there's no right or wrong that's not right or wrong no for sure

right or wrong no for sure I mean

I mean music has a way of just

music has a way of just doing something inside to people that I

doing something inside to people that I think very few other art forms can do

think very few other art forms can do um and I guess we all experience it

um and I guess we all experience it definitely I've always like I've always

definitely I've always like I've always thought I viscerally can feel certain

thought I viscerally can feel certain things in music I know you've worked

things in music I know you've worked with Chad Smith on many occasions of

with Chad Smith on many occasions of those Chili Peppers he's one of my

those Chili Peppers he's one of my favorite drummers

favorite drummers and

and for me when I hear

for me when I hear I've always felt this like Chad's

can play what is seemingly a 4-4 Rock beat

beat but I feel like he's talking to me yes

but I feel like he's talking to me yes through that any of the drum or drum

through that any of the drum or drum designer would play it would just sound

designer would play it would just sound like a very metronomic

like a very metronomic um static 4-4 rock beats yes but Chad

um static 4-4 rock beats yes but Chad seems to bring it alive as if those

seems to bring it alive as if those drums are talking to me like he's having

drums are talking to me like he's having a conversation with me and I remember

a conversation with me and I remember when I saw him alive in Manchester a few

when I saw him alive in Manchester a few years ago

years ago it was just incredible how

I don't know what is it with him what you think it is I mean

you think it is I mean it's unbelievable and it's true with the

it's unbelievable and it's true with the they're the musicians who who

they're the musicians who who just transcend their instruments he's

just transcend their instruments he's one of those people where

one of those people where it

it what he's what he's playing doesn't have

what he's what he's playing doesn't have to draw attention to itself

to draw attention to itself he can play the simplest thing

he can play the simplest thing yet you can feel it's different than the

yet you can feel it's different than the way anyone else plays it and it's and it

way anyone else plays it and it's and it it just lives in a different way it's

it just lives in a different way it's true with uh guitar players true with

true with uh guitar players true with musicians it's true with great bands

musicians it's true with great bands yeah what makes a band great usually is

yeah what makes a band great usually is the way each of the members

the way each of the members feel the music the differences between

feel the music the differences between each of the way the members feel the

each of the way the members feel the music like in

music like in um

in Metallica the drums push

push ahead of the guitars yeah in AC DC the

ahead of the guitars yeah in AC DC the drums lag behind the guitars and that's

drums lag behind the guitars and that's part of the sound of those bands it's

part of the sound of those bands it's it's the imperfection that's what makes

it's the imperfection that's what makes it sound that that the tension created

it sound that that the tension created by the way each musician interprets the

by the way each musician interprets the music and the different timings combined

music and the different timings combined together to make this sound that's

together to make this sound that's bigger than everybody playing it exactly

bigger than everybody playing it exactly precisely correctly yeah

precisely correctly yeah I think there's a lesson in that for all

I think there's a lesson in that for all of us in our relationships in our lives

of us in our relationships in our lives in so many ways Rick you've

in so many ways Rick you've been public about your struggles with

been public about your struggles with depression in the past

depression in the past what if you could

what if you could sort of talk us through what happens

one of the key elements of that for me

key elements of that for me is that you have said that

is that you have said that you feel more grounded now

you feel more grounded now than you did before you suffered from

than you did before you suffered from depression yes

depression yes before I suffered depression I felt more

before I suffered depression I felt more like um

this will sound funny I guess the best way to say it's like a superhuman

way to say it's like a superhuman feeling of like nothing

nothing um

um nothing could affect me

nothing could affect me and once something affected me

it's much more rude I would say now I'm more grounded and rooted in reality

more grounded and rooted in reality where before I might have been more um

yeah I can't think of the right word but just not

just not um

I wasn't able to empathize as much with other people's problems before because

other people's problems before because it didn't seem to me like it was

it didn't seem to me like it was possible like I didn't have an

possible like I didn't have an understanding of what difficulties felt

understanding of what difficulties felt like because it I was apart from it

like because it I was apart from it yeah

yeah and when I say that I still had

and when I say that I still had difficulties but but they were

difficulties but but they were manageable depression is different than

manageable depression is different than regular difficulties yeah you know

regular difficulties yeah you know there's a difference between

there's a difference between not being able to accomplish something

not being able to accomplish something you want and

you want and feeling hopeless they're two different

feeling hopeless they're two different things or feeling so bad and not

things or feeling so bad and not understanding why you know it doesn't

understanding why you know it doesn't the thing about depression that's so

the thing about depression that's so crippling is that it doesn't make sense

crippling is that it doesn't make sense uh it's not rooted in outward my

uh it's not rooted in outward my experience of it it wasn't rooted in

experience of it it wasn't rooted in what was going on in my world yeah

it was just something um triggered this emotional response

um triggered this emotional response that I'd never had before and I felt

that I'd never had before and I felt like I was dying and this wild

like I was dying and this wild experience and it lasted a long time

experience and it lasted a long time it was a comment wasn't it made by

it was a comment wasn't it made by someone it was just a comment and it was

someone it was just a comment and it was a comment that anyone else heard the

a comment that anyone else heard the comment in my position would have been

comment in my position would have been like okay we'll deal with it when we get

like okay we'll deal with it when we get back

back but for some reason it was um it touched

but for some reason it was um it touched a nerve of vulnerability that had never

a nerve of vulnerability that had never been touched in me before

was it that I guess as an adult you'd had huge

I guess as an adult you'd had huge amounts of success in music right from

amounts of success in music right from the get-go

or was it to do with I don't know elements of your childhood was it happy

elements of your childhood was it happy peaceful was it did it go without I

peaceful was it did it go without I think you've said once before that

think you've said once before that you hadn't really had to overcome many

you hadn't really had to overcome many obstacles so when that happened you had

obstacles so when that happened you had no tools to deal with it that's exactly

no tools to deal with it that's exactly right

right that's exactly what it was I I it was an

that's exactly what it was I I it was an idyllic childhood absolutely I was an

idyllic childhood absolutely I was an only child I was uh I would say I was

only child I was uh I would say I was spoiled although I didn't I wouldn't I

spoiled although I didn't I wouldn't I don't know that I necessarily acted

don't know that I necessarily acted spoiled but I didn't

spoiled but I didn't [Music]

[Music] um

um my wants were met in childhood

my wants were met in childhood and

and and then had great success before I even

and then had great success before I even knew that I was started a career

so I wasn't prepared for any type of um it's and I guess what it really had to

it's and I guess what it really had to do with the sense of support so I always

do with the sense of support so I always had the sense that my parents supported

had the sense that my parents supported me in anything that I wanted to do

me in anything that I wanted to do that's the way they raised me was like

that's the way they raised me was like you're great you could do anything and

you're great you could do anything and we will support you to the end of time

we will support you to the end of time and then

and then when I had success in music

when I had success in music the powers that be in music when you're

the powers that be in music when you're successful are very supportive so I had

successful are very supportive so I had this ramp of support and then when I

this ramp of support and then when I turned 33

turned 33 um someone questioned it for the first

um someone questioned it for the first time and again it was minor it worked

time and again it was minor it worked out it actually ended up in a better

out it actually ended up in a better place than it would have been had it not

place than it would have been had it not happened it was all fine but I just

happened it was all fine but I just didn't have the I didn't know how to

didn't have the I didn't know how to deal with it and without even knowing

deal with it and without even knowing what was happening because I didn't

what was happening because I didn't really know what Depression was I didn't

really know what Depression was I didn't know what a panic attack was I just knew

know what a panic attack was I just knew that I couldn't sleep I couldn't breathe

that I couldn't sleep I couldn't breathe and I thought I was dying it was wild

and I thought I was dying it was wild wild experience and did you at the time

wild experience and did you at the time know with your rational mind this is

know with your rational mind this is nothing no so it wasn't that you knew

nothing no so it wasn't that you knew cognitively this is nothing I shouldn't

cognitively this is nothing I shouldn't be ratting like this but I am you just

be ratting like this but I am you just didn't know did you feel out of control

didn't know did you feel out of control absolutely but but not in a way I felt

absolutely but but not in a way I felt out of control in a way that I didn't

out of control in a way that I didn't understand I didn't understand what was

understand I didn't understand what was happening yeah it none of it made sense

happening yeah it none of it made sense the way my body was reacting didn't make

the way my body was reacting didn't make sense

sense felt like I had no control of myself I

felt like I had no control of myself I had no control because again I can't say

had no control because again I can't say that what what the comment was anything

that what what the comment was anything that

that set me in the moment wasn't like that it

set me in the moment wasn't like that it was more of just a

was more of just a it was like a question mark but somehow

it was like a question mark but somehow it like

it like plant to deceited me or or like um

plant to deceited me or or like um it's like it let the air out of my

it's like it let the air out of my balloon that's what it felt like

balloon that's what it felt like do you still consider yourself someone

do you still consider yourself someone who suffers with depression I would say

who suffers with depression I would say I I can be moody I I don't I I'm not

I I can be moody I I don't I I'm not really felt true depression in some time

really felt true depression in some time although I've had

although I've had two big bouts of it in my life that

two big bouts of it in my life that first one and then it happened again

first one and then it happened again years later

years later um not as bad the second time as the

um not as bad the second time as the first time and not since a none since

first time and not since a none since changing my schedule being in the sun

changing my schedule being in the sun changing my diet all of those things

changing my diet all of those things really have helped oh wow so since

really have helped oh wow so since obviously we talked about it early on in

obviously we talked about it early on in this conversation since you were with

this conversation since you were with Phil since you lost your weight you had

Phil since you lost your weight you had the Vitality change your diet yes see

the Vitality change your diet yes see natural lights yes

natural lights yes then you haven't had any since then no I

then you haven't had any since then no I will say I still can be moody

will say I still can be moody for sure yeah but never like I don't I

for sure yeah but never like I don't I don't think that I crash the way I did

don't think that I crash the way I did you're well known for doing sauna and

you're well known for doing sauna and cold plunge yes uh I heard the podcast

cold plunge yes uh I heard the podcast you did with Tim Ferris a few years back

you did with Tim Ferris a few years back in the sauna was that in your house it

in the sauna was that in your house it was yeah I mean I

was yeah I mean I it was pretty awesome listening to it I

it was pretty awesome listening to it I was thinking how how is no one burning

was thinking how how is no one burning themselves here or it was really it was

themselves here or it was really it was difficult

difficult um it was difficult and he had it where

um it was difficult and he had it where we were holding the mics which was

we were holding the mics which was insane so we had the mics wrapped in

insane so we had the mics wrapped in towels to be able to hold them and every

towels to be able to hold them and every on occasion you'd touch the metal you

on occasion you'd touch the metal you know burn your hand I mean first of all

know burn your hand I mean first of all why did you elect to do that podcast

why did you elect to do that podcast with Tim it was my idea it was it was

with Tim it was my idea it was it was actually my condition for doing the

actually my condition for doing the podcast was I'll do it if we do it in

podcast was I'll do it if we do it in the sauna and the reason was

the sauna and the reason was um at that point in time I hadn't done

um at that point in time I hadn't done very many interviews ever yeah and I had

very many interviews ever yeah and I had never done a long form interview and I

never done a long form interview and I thought to take away any apprehensions

thought to take away any apprehensions that I have one of the things that we uh

that I have one of the things that we uh our friends uh my friend Gabby Reese

our friends uh my friend Gabby Reese yeah she calls it the truth box

yeah she calls it the truth box and the we noticed over time from doing

and the we noticed over time from doing sauna altogether that

sauna altogether that the conversations in the sauna get

the conversations in the sauna get really good and really real

really good and really real and I think any

and I think any um

any pre any protection you have up goes away in the sauna to protect

goes away in the sauna to protect yourself from the heat so you're so

yourself from the heat so you're so focused on the discomfort of the Heat

focused on the discomfort of the Heat that what you say is uh

that what you say is uh very pure

very pure yeah and I thought if I do this with you

yeah and I thought if I do this with you and I met him but I didn't really know

and I met him but I didn't really know him very well then I said let's do it in

him very well then I said let's do it in the sauna because I know the

the sauna because I know the conversation will be really real yeah so

conversation will be really real yeah so let's do that

let's do that yeah that's awesome yeah I mean you

yeah that's awesome yeah I mean you should have said we could have turned

should have said we could have turned the air conditioning off at the start

the air conditioning off at the start it's pretty cool

um and why do you use sauna and coal plunge oh like when did you bring that

plunge oh like when did you bring that into your life why did you bring it and

into your life why did you bring it and then I guess what kind of impact has it

then I guess what kind of impact has it had

had um started in

um started in probably could be as much as 10 years

probably could be as much as 10 years ago now after you suffer with depression

ago now after you suffer with depression for the first time much after

for the first time much after long after but was this part of the

long after but was this part of the process of you on this health Journey

process of you on this health Journey trying to use this is after I started

trying to use this is after I started training yeah

training yeah um I lost the weight I started training

um I lost the weight I started training and got invited into a sauna with some

and got invited into a sauna with some sports friends of mine and they we would

sports friends of mine and they we would go in the sauna and it's in the middle

go in the sauna and it's in the middle of winter and jump into the ocean after

of winter and jump into the ocean after and I remember being terrified of the

and I remember being terrified of the whole thing and doing it and absolutely

whole thing and doing it and absolutely loving it from the very first time I did

loving it from the very first time I did it and found that through these repeated

it and found that through these repeated you know four rounds of

you know four rounds of very hot sauna and very cold

um it hadn't it had a euphoric effect I would say I never

a euphoric effect I would say I never felt better in my life

than at the end of a session of sauna and ice

and ice best mood I've ever been in my life and

best mood I've ever been in my life and also if there were any if I had any

also if there were any if I had any concerns in life anything I was worried

concerns in life anything I was worried about

about that all went away in the sauna for sure

that all went away in the sauna for sure that nothing after once you get into a

that nothing after once you get into a practice of getting into an ice bath on

practice of getting into an ice bath on a regular basis

a regular basis nothing else in your life will be a

nothing else in your life will be a challenge

challenge yes it's super interesting I'm

yes it's super interesting I'm you know I I hear about what happens at

you know I I hear about what happens at LED's pool yeah and you know I'd love to

LED's pool yeah and you know I'd love to chat to Lad at some point or Gabby so

chat to Lad at some point or Gabby so that'd be great so fascinating what

that'd be great so fascinating what they're doing something that

they're doing something that actually it as we record this it's not

actually it as we record this it's not it's not been released publicly yet

it's not been released publicly yet um there's a shop called Erwin liquor

um there's a shop called Erwin liquor um move now guy yeah

um move now guy yeah he has got a new breath work uh course I

he has got a new breath work uh course I think it's called breath hold work

think it's called breath hold work meditation

meditation and he was running them as the live

and he was running them as the live four-week courses

four-week courses um and he did about four or five of

um and he did about four or five of those over a few months feedback was

those over a few months feedback was incredible I did one of them and he's

incredible I did one of them and he's going to launch it online fantastic

going to launch it online fantastic shortly

shortly it is

it is unbelievable now I've done loads of

unbelievable now I've done loads of breath work stuff in the past

breath work stuff in the past what

what is different about this like just to

is different about this like just to just to give a Top Line overview

I went in you meant to do two sessions a week for four weeks with with everyone

week for four weeks with with everyone on

on and first session he asks you to take a

and first session he asks you to take a you know without any warning take it you

you know without any warning take it you know full breath in and hold your breath

know full breath in and hold your breath and I think I could I think I was

and I think I could I think I was actually in Sweden for the first session

actually in Sweden for the first session I was there uh one of my books had just

I was there uh one of my books had just come out there I just landed got to the

come out there I just landed got to the hotel I could just do a minute for

hotel I could just do a minute for breath hold

breath hold four weeks later and I didn't even do

four weeks later and I didn't even do both sessions twice a week

both sessions twice a week I held my breath for four minutes 30.

I held my breath for four minutes 30. incredible in four weeks incredible and

incredible in four weeks incredible and that was an absolutely not a

that was an absolutely not a physiological adaptation it was all the

physiological adaptation it was all the Mind wow and and what why I feel this

Mind wow and and what why I feel this practice is so phenomenal a bit like

practice is so phenomenal a bit like what you just said about the colds yes

what you just said about the colds yes basically you get to the point where

basically you get to the point where your body is screaming for you to take a

your body is screaming for you to take a breath yes which is one of the most

breath yes which is one of the most Primal

Primal um

um you know

you know signals for survival yes in that moment

signals for survival yes in that moment he helps you learn how to quieten your

he helps you learn how to quieten your minds so it's not about holding on it's

minds so it's not about holding on it's actually

actually can you get still can you get quiet can

can you get still can you get quiet can you almost get into a deep meditative

you almost get into a deep meditative State and then you think you need to be

State and then you think you need to be you've still got another minutes ago a

you've still got another minutes ago a minute and a half

minute and a half and

and I do many things to my well-being but I

I do many things to my well-being but I reckon you would love this it sounds

reckon you would love this it sounds fantastic it's and I having done loads

fantastic it's and I having done loads of breath work courses this is very

of breath work courses this is very different

different and it's been life-changing like I feel

and it's been life-changing like I feel if you can control your mind when your

if you can control your mind when your body's screaming you feel empowered you

body's screaming you feel empowered you feel powered anyway you think oh the

feel powered anyway you think oh the Train's there okay oh they're shouting

Train's there okay oh they're shouting at me okay no worries yeah so would you

at me okay no worries yeah so would you say the cause an element of that

say the cause an element of that absolutely mental toughness mental

absolutely mental toughness mental toughness and being able to stay in it

toughness and being able to stay in it is purely mental it's not has nothing to

is purely mental it's not has nothing to do with the physical it's all mental

do with the physical it's all mental it's all mental yeah

it's all mental yeah out of all the things that you've done

out of all the things that you've done for your health and well-being over the

for your health and well-being over the years

years which are the most important ones would

which are the most important ones would you say for you

you say for you I would say

I would say um

um eating animal protein

eating animal protein sleeping on a cold bed

sleeping on a cold bed so that's either the sleep aid or the

so that's either the sleep aid or the chili pad either either one of those or

chili pad either either one of those or the uler those are the choices

the uler those are the choices and Sona nice and I suppose uh whatever

and Sona nice and I suppose uh whatever physical practice I'm doing and

physical practice I'm doing and meditation that's another key

meditation that's another key yeah the basics which people have known

yeah the basics which people have known for years that's right that's it that's

for years that's right that's it that's it

it yeah and I think actually the diet the

yeah and I think actually the diet the reason I I say diet first

reason I I say diet first is

if you exercise and don't diet it seems to mean practically nothing

to mean practically nothing and if you diet and add exercise it it

and if you diet and add exercise it it multiplies it's like it changes

multiplies it's like it changes everything so I would say

everything so I would say it's 90 it's 90 diet 10 exercise but if

it's 90 it's 90 diet 10 exercise but if you do the 10 exercise you get 50 of the

you do the 10 exercise you get 50 of the bonus you know it's like it's all out of

bonus you know it's like it's all out of the numbers don't make sense yeah the

the numbers don't make sense yeah the numbers don't make sense it's non-linear

numbers don't make sense it's non-linear isn't it no no but I would say diet

isn't it no no but I would say diet first then exercise and then the the

first then exercise and then the the extra bonus things but sleeping on colds

extra bonus things but sleeping on colds is really profound really profound have

is really profound really profound have you experimented at all I have actually

you experimented at all I have actually I've tried eight sleep once as well I

I've tried eight sleep once as well I thought it was brilliant yeah

thought it was brilliant yeah um when you have that cold then and what

um when you have that cold then and what I love that you can alter for your

I love that you can alter for your partner as well so absolutely different

partner as well so absolutely different temperature and you can sleep with a

temperature and you can sleep with a blanket and be cozy yeah and still keep

blanket and be cozy yeah and still keep your body cool

your body cool um I sleep much deeper on a cold bed and

um I sleep much deeper on a cold bed and I like that bring anything with you when

I like that bring anything with you when you're traveling to try and replicate

you're traveling to try and replicate that no well I in the different places

that no well I in the different places in the world I have houses in different

in the world I have houses in different places and I I have cold sleeping in all

places and I I have cold sleeping in all the places that I live but on this trip

the places that I live but on this trip I don't have it and it's and my sleep is

I don't have it and it's and my sleep is falling apart there you go yeah to the

falling apart there you go yeah to the point where you might bring something

point where you might bring something with you next time I don't know it's big

with you next time I don't know it's big to bring it's like you have to figure

to bring it's like you have to figure out a way yeah and figure out a way

out a way yeah and figure out a way I'm hoping it gets to the point where

I'm hoping it gets to the point where it's popular enough where they'll just

it's popular enough where they'll just be everywhere yeah I'm sure it will soon

be everywhere yeah I'm sure it will soon yeah

yeah um be nice like a biohacking hotel that

um be nice like a biohacking hotel that has only red lights at night and oh man

has only red lights at night and oh man the the lights in hotels at nights the

the the lights in hotels at nights the vein of many people's existence the

vein of many people's existence the bright lights

bright lights could I ask you a bit of advice sure

could I ask you a bit of advice sure almost feel a bit cheeky asking but

almost feel a bit cheeky asking but I guess it's not in private it's what

I guess it's not in private it's what microphones are running that's fine

you know if someone had told me when I was 14 I'd be

was 14 I'd be sitting face to face with you the the

sitting face to face with you the the the teenage wrong and probably wouldn't

the teenage wrong and probably wouldn't have believed it and over the past few

have believed it and over the past few years I've realized that

years I've realized that um

um I wrote a section in my last one about

I wrote a section in my last one about worshiping the wrong Heroes that this

worshiping the wrong Heroes that this idea of hero worship is fundamentally

idea of hero worship is fundamentally flawed

flawed it's an idea I'm kind of really working

it's an idea I'm kind of really working on at the moment maybe for my next book

on at the moment maybe for my next book I think

I think it's problematic because we only see one

it's problematic because we only see one element of these so-called heroes yes

element of these so-called heroes yes you know we you know we think we want to

you know we you know we think we want to play golf like Tiger Woods but if you

play golf like Tiger Woods but if you want to play golf like tiger you also

want to play golf like tiger you also probably have to have the broken

probably have to have the broken marriage the painkill the rediction the

marriage the painkill the rediction the public humiliation or all all those

public humiliation or all all those things come with it not just the little

things come with it not just the little bit you want

bit you want so but I've I've sort of let go of a lot

so but I've I've sort of let go of a lot of that over the past few years and

of that over the past few years and having met a lot of high profile and

having met a lot of high profile and famous people and realizing that

famous people and realizing that everyone's got the same issues

everyone's got the same issues it was a human yes it kind of helps you

it was a human yes it kind of helps you with that and absolutely and stop and

with that and absolutely and stop and stop elevating people but I for much of

stop elevating people but I for much of my life wants to be a musician

my life wants to be a musician so

so um I think even at third year at Uni I

um I think even at third year at Uni I took a year out to immunology and I came

took a year out to immunology and I came back at Christmas I told my mum and dad

back at Christmas I told my mum and dad I'm

I'm I said I'm quitting I'm going on the

I said I'm quitting I'm going on the road with the bands and I don't think I

road with the bands and I don't think I really meant it I think I was trying to

really meant it I think I was trying to get a reaction and oh boy I got a

get a reaction and oh boy I got a reaction certainly from my dad's yeah

reaction certainly from my dad's yeah and my mum managed to keep the peace and

and my mum managed to keep the peace and said why don't you just finish your

said why don't you just finish your Immunology degree then you can go you

Immunology degree then you can go you know she was just trying to store me

know she was just trying to store me and um huge part of my life in Edinburgh

and um huge part of my life in Edinburgh was playing in bands and writing

was playing in bands and writing and you know I remember when I left that

and you know I remember when I left that number I came back to Manchester or I

number I came back to Manchester or I recorded my like a solo EP and you know

recorded my like a solo EP and you know there's a great radio station called Xfm

there's a great radio station called Xfm one of the singles ended up being single

one of the singles ended up being single of the week so you know low grade

of the week so you know low grade elements of you know in inverse Commons

elements of you know in inverse Commons success but no record deal nothing like

success but no record deal nothing like that and

that and um I actually don't believe that would

um I actually don't believe that would have been the right career for me anyway

have been the right career for me anyway I feel that I have

I feel that I have found my true calling over the last six

found my true calling over the last six or seven years you know pretty much

or seven years you know pretty much since my dad died and I've looked at my

since my dad died and I've looked at my life and now what I do in medicine with

life and now what I do in medicine with my podcast with my books I feel is

my podcast with my books I feel is form of Art and creativity that allows

form of Art and creativity that allows me to use

me to use the skills and practices I've learned to

the skills and practices I've learned to share with people which helps me and

share with people which helps me and also helps them

but over the last few years Rick it's been niggling away at me that

it's been niggling away at me that there's a part of me

there's a part of me which is a songwriter yes that is

which is a songwriter yes that is unexpressed yes

unexpressed yes and I think it's really become clearer

and I think it's really become clearer over the last two weeks

over the last two weeks because as part of my research for this

because as part of my research for this conversation

conversation I've been delving into albums I haven't

I've been delving into albums I haven't heard in years blood sugar Sex Magic

heard in years blood sugar Sex Magic wildflowers uh it's just been such a joy

wildflowers uh it's just been such a joy and I'm feeling

and I'm feeling that visceral connection again

that visceral connection again to music but the problem Rick in my

to music but the problem Rick in my heads and I guess I'm asking you as an

heads and I guess I'm asking you as an invisible now a visible life coach

invisible now a visible life coach [Music]

[Music] I feel I've changed since I used to

I feel I've changed since I used to write songs I think when I used to write

write songs I think when I used to write songs I was very derivative I think I

songs I was very derivative I think I was trying to be someone you know when I

was trying to be someone you know when I was 13 or 14 I wanted to be Jon Bon Jovi

was 13 or 14 I wanted to be Jon Bon Jovi that's all I wanted to be like I

that's all I wanted to be like I literally wanted to be him and I think

literally wanted to be him and I think some of my intonations yeah

some of my intonations yeah you know like many British people we put

you know like many British people we put on an American accent when singing

on an American accent when singing because I don't know why is it softer is

because I don't know why is it softer is it less harsh

it less harsh and now one because I recently have been

and now one because I recently have been picking up the guitar again I've got

picking up the guitar again I've got some verses going I've got some things

some verses going I've got some things going and I'm like that's pretty good

going and I'm like that's pretty good and

and but I I feel that

but I I feel that I've got old patternings

I've got old patternings in my voice that I don't feel

in my voice that I don't feel authentically me

authentically me so either will struggle

so either will struggle through my podcasting and uh literary

through my podcasting and uh literary career yes I feel particularly my last

career yes I feel particularly my last book I found my voice and who I am yes

book I found my voice and who I am yes but I don't feel

but I don't feel and again I'm probably being harsh on

and again I'm probably being harsh on myself but I don't feel that my singing

myself but I don't feel that my singing voice yes is in the same place

voice yes is in the same place if an artist came to you with this sort

if an artist came to you with this sort of

of quandary uh what might you say to them I

quandary uh what might you say to them I would say if you found your writing

would say if you found your writing voice on your fifth book

voice on your fifth book we can learn from that

we can learn from that so it sounds like by the time you get to

so it sounds like by the time you get to your fifth album you'll find your voice

your fifth album you'll find your voice vocally

vocally and it's not going to happen without

and it's not going to happen without doing the work so so

doing the work so so uh I would suggest that you write and

uh I would suggest that you write and record as much as you can all of the

record as much as you can all of the time and instead of thinking of it as

time and instead of thinking of it as um think of it as a hobby just think my

um think of it as a hobby just think my hobby is I'm going to write and record

hobby is I'm going to write and record songs and then there'll come a time

songs and then there'll come a time through that process where you look back

through that process where you look back and go hmm

and go hmm I think this batch is ready to share

I think this batch is ready to share with people

with people look luckily you're not um

look luckily you're not um you're not obligated to share anything

you're not obligated to share anything because you're sharing the podcast and

because you're sharing the podcast and you're sharing the books and you're

you're sharing the books and you're sharing your medical practice so it

sharing your medical practice so it truly can be a personal hobby until it

truly can be a personal hobby until it until it grows into something more than

until it grows into something more than that which it will naturally do by

that which it will naturally do by itself but it won't happen without doing

itself but it won't happen without doing the work and it's only going to be the

the work and it's only going to be the work that's going to make it happen

work that's going to make it happen yeah

yeah and do you think that element we were

and do you think that element we were talking about before about

talking about before about Beware of the assumption that the way

Beware of the assumption that the way you work is the best way simply because

you work is the best way simply because it's the way you've done it I'm thinking

it's the way you've done it I'm thinking like should I again is this

like should I again is this procrastination should I get a different

procrastination should I get a different guitar

guitar which won't maybe lead me to those old

which won't maybe lead me to those old patterns should I instead of the usual

patterns should I instead of the usual chords I would use to songwrite do I put

chords I would use to songwrite do I put a capo halfway up and actually try and

a capo halfway up and actually try and shake things up try it all try all that

shake things up try it all try all that try writing a song on the piano try

try writing a song on the piano try doing all those things yeah see what

doing all those things yeah see what happens try uh go go on a service that

happens try uh go go on a service that has Beats and you know go on Soundcloud

has Beats and you know go on Soundcloud and find a beat you like and write to

and find a beat you like and write to that beat

that beat so totally Shake It Up completely try

so totally Shake It Up completely try things see surprise yourself

things see surprise yourself with

with what works for you

I just I love that advice and um

I love that advice and um it said it's advice that I

it said it's advice that I literally will

literally will put in surprises immediately beautiful

put in surprises immediately beautiful and um

and um you'll definitely learn through the pro

you'll definitely learn through the pro you know you'll learn both through

you know you'll learn both through successful and failed experiments like

successful and failed experiments like each one will get you closer to where

each one will get you closer to where you're going and it's it's impossible to

you're going and it's it's impossible to know until you try as many things as you

know until you try as many things as you can try and you'll be surprised and

can try and you'll be surprised and you'll say oh these these three things

you'll say oh these these three things are all kind of good I've never done a

are all kind of good I've never done a mise way before or the old way is still

mise way before or the old way is still the best or you won't know there's no

the best or you won't know there's no way to know

way to know um and you also find out what's most fun

um and you also find out what's most fun like where where you

like where where you what part of the discovery process is

what part of the discovery process is most exciting to you and that might work

most exciting to you and that might work its way into it sounding a particular

its way into it sounding a particular way if you're engaging in it in a way

way if you're engaging in it in a way that um

that um spark something new in you out of the

spark something new in you out of the excitement of the way that it's

excitement of the way that it's happening

so much to think about it's it's really something that

something that I just can't shake at the moment and I

I just can't shake at the moment and I feel I don't regret not playing as much

feel I don't regret not playing as much for the last six or seven years yes I've

for the last six or seven years yes I've still got with my covers band in chamony

still got with my covers band in chamony in France it will go and play it two or

in France it will go and play it two or three gigs every winter and yeah but

three gigs every winter and yeah but that covers you know and that's nothing

that covers you know and that's nothing wrong with that people are having a good

wrong with that people are having a good time we enjoy playing but I do feel do

time we enjoy playing but I do feel do you feel there's a limit to creativity

you feel there's a limit to creativity um

um I I what I mean by that is I have told

I I what I mean by that is I have told myself over the past few years

myself over the past few years Oh wrong and you're using up your

Oh wrong and you're using up your Creative Energy and I know this as I say

Creative Energy and I know this as I say it so I I guess I'm bringing it out into

it so I I guess I'm bringing it out into the open to yeah I'm in my books on my

the open to yeah I'm in my books on my podcast so I don't have much left for

podcast so I don't have much left for songwriting no no

songwriting no no you may not you may run out of energy

you may not you may run out of energy but not creativity

but not creativity you know you may be too tired but that's

you know you may be too tired but that's all not not the in some ways the more

all not not the in some ways the more you engage in in different creative

you engage in in different creative practices the better they all get they

practices the better they all get they all get better

all get better the thing that Taps out first is Just

the thing that Taps out first is Just Energy you run out of steam but not not

Energy you run out of steam but not not out of ideas or creative spirit that

out of ideas or creative spirit that that's uh it's Eternal and forever

I feel very honored that I've had uh some visible life coach advice from you

some visible life coach advice from you about that I will be sure to let you

about that I will be sure to let you know how it goes yeah I'm excited to

know how it goes yeah I'm excited to hear

hear um

um I've said it enough times but I say it

I've said it enough times but I say it again Rick this this is It's just

again Rick this this is It's just wonderful this book I I treasure it so

wonderful this book I I treasure it so so much I've got this early copy on a

so much I've got this early copy on a bound

bound you know prints out papers all my

you know prints out papers all my scribbles in but the actual copy is just

scribbles in but the actual copy is just beautiful

beautiful um you've got no quotes on the book no

um you've got no quotes on the book no and uh you were you were saying just

and uh you were you were saying just before we started recording that that

before we started recording that that was intentional it was intentional for

was intentional it was intentional for me and I was happy that the Publishers

me and I was happy that the Publishers went along with my wish

went along with my wish um most books have quotes on them and

um most books have quotes on them and quotes are uh

quotes are uh a marketing tool

a marketing tool and it seems like if you put uh

and it seems like if you put uh if you put marketing information on on

if you put marketing information on on something that makes it a product and I

something that makes it a product and I don't really think of it as a product so

don't really think of it as a product so yeah that was the thought

many different chapters in this book are there any that come to mind as ones

are there any that come to mind as ones that

that yeah that's the one that's the one that

yeah that's the one that's the one that really helped me or helped you you know

really helped me or helped you you know no I'm I'm continually surprised by it

no I'm I'm continually surprised by it as I've had to read it to give you know

as I've had to read it to give you know either to read it to understand the

either to read it to understand the editor's notes or read it to give my

editor's notes or read it to give my notes of things that I think can be

notes of things that I think can be improved

improved I'm surprised by so much of the

I'm surprised by so much of the information in the book and it's not um

information in the book and it's not um it doesn't live in the front of my mind

it doesn't live in the front of my mind so it's

so it's uh it came through

uh it came through a lot of

a lot of um searching and so much of the

um searching and so much of the information is intuitive

information is intuitive yet when I read it it's like oh yeah it

yet when I read it it's like oh yeah it is like that you know like that's that's

is like that you know like that's that's my relationship to it is

my relationship to it is it's um

it's it's a hard thing to describe it's it the

it the it's the best version of seven years of

it's the best version of seven years of thought that's not there now yeah

Rick I don't know what else to say but thank you

thank you um

um I'm drawn back to the intro again

I'm drawn back to the intro again nothing in this book is known to be true

nothing in this book is known to be true it's a reflection of what I've noticed

it's a reflection of what I've noticed not facts sent much as thoughts

not facts sent much as thoughts it is going to help so many people

it is going to help so many people it really is it's certainly helped this

it really is it's certainly helped this man already in the past two weeks so

man already in the past two weeks so thank you for that amazing

thank you for that amazing um thank you for first and foremost

um thank you for first and foremost making the art that moved you yes

making the art that moved you yes that's a key lesson for me and um

that's a key lesson for me and um Rick it's been an absolute pleasure

Rick it's been an absolute pleasure thank you

thank you my pleasure thank you if that

my pleasure thank you if that conversation resonated with you here is

conversation resonated with you here is another incredibly powerful one that I

another incredibly powerful one that I really think you're going to enjoy when

really think you're going to enjoy when you encounter that really you wake up to

you encounter that really you wake up to creativity you wake up to love you wake

creativity you wake up to love you wake up to compassion truth goodness Beauty

up to compassion truth goodness Beauty Harmony Insight imagination creativity

Harmony Insight imagination creativity Vision you break up to a higher quality

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YouTube Transcript:For People Feeling Behind In Life - Do This Before 2025 Ends To Find Purpose & Meaning | Rick Rubin

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For People Feeling Behind In Life - Do This Before 2025 Ends To Find Purpose & Meaning | Rick Rubin