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The Brian Lehrer Show: Divided, Exceptional America | WNYC | YouTubeToText
YouTube Transcript: The Brian Lehrer Show: Divided, Exceptional America
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Core Theme
The core theme is that "American exceptionalism," historically meaning the U.S. is an exception among nations, has evolved into a perception of superiority that, combined with unique historical and cultural factors, drives profound polarization within the United States, setting it apart from other Western democracies.
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valera WNYC when we think of American
exceptionalism a few ideas might come to
mind the colonists taking over Indian
land is their God given right manifest
destiny the initial description of the
concept can be traced to French
sociologist and political theorist
Alexis de Tocqueville who traveled to
the United States in 1831
to study its prisons and uncovered a
wealth of broader observations namely
that America is an exceptional country
in that it's an exception as singular
Gatien but not necessarily a superior
one coincidentally masha gessen in our
earlier segment talked about a state of
exception as an attack or after an
attack as an excuse for a kurta cracy
coined by somebody in Hitler's time and
in that context but in the context of de
Tocqueville joining me now is another
Frenchman with his take on American
exceptionalism 21st century style and
how it might be driving Americans apart today
today
mugambi jouer is a professor at stanford
law school form a human rights lawyer
here in Manhattan and author of a new
book called exceptional America what
divides Americans from the world and
from each other welcome to the show and
the green space professors you're a
thank you so much first about you to let
people get to know you a little bit you
have an interesting multinational
background how is it that you came to
practice and teach law of the United
States well unlike Barack Obama I was
actually born in Kenya
my father is Kenyan my mother is French
and after being born Nairobi I grew up
in Paris in a multicultural environment
and ultimately I decided to move to the
US for college going from Paris France
not to Paris Texas but to Houston Texas
and ultimately I stayed on and became a
human rights lawyer here and I was
really fascinated not only about the
contrasts between America as a whole and
France or other Western democracies
living here but at a huge contrast
within the United States I spent about
six years in New York spent time in New
England Chicago now-abandoned Georgia
California and this is a big part of
polarization that America is very
divided at a regional level it's also
very divided at a partisan level because
Americans were teeny clash over a broad
range of issues are not controversial
elsewhere in the West like whether
people should have a basic right to
health care whether special interests
should be allowed to spend unlimited
money on political elections and on
lobbying whether climate change is a
hoax invented by know-it-all scientists
or a scientific reality whether women
should have a basic right to abortion
whether contraception should be covered
by people's health insurance whether
people should have an unbridled right to
bear arms whether to have mass
incarceration the death penalty and
whether even if the propria to
reintroduce torture into Western
civilization that's a list and those
things that make us exceptional in
political terms compared primarily to
other Western democracies I guess other
things in US history that you have come
to understand laid the groundwork for
that as a related set of exceptions yes
a lot of this stems from America
exceptionalism in the original sense of
the phrase namely die America is an
exception and most people today think
that American exceptionalism means a
faith in American superiority
exceptional sense of outstanding or
phenomenal but historically it's
primarily meant that America is an
objection objectively under scripted ly
especially compared to other Western
democracies that is European countries
Canada Australia and New Zealand and a
broad range of issues in terms of
America's history culture law politics
race relations
economic attitudes abilities beliefs
I've shaped all these device who coined
the term so interestingly the phrase
American exceptionalism was not coined
by Tocqueville himself as far as we know
is that it has been ironically traced to
American communists we used it in the
early 20th century to talk about how the
so called inertial laws of Marxism we
have to evolve differently in America
because of his distinct set of social
and economic conditions and after that
epoch he was mainly used by American
academics who analyzed how America is
different from other countries and for
which reasons and eventually the phrase
became widely used for the first time
during the Obama presidency and that's
because Republican politicians routinely
accused Obama of betraying American
exceptionalism and the heritage of the
founding fathers but it's not what the
phrase historically meant you outline in
the book four ways in which the
polarization in this country has made it
an exception in the Western world that's
not just the list of particular issues
that we went through before right so
there are four factors that are
interrelated that shaped much of
American polarization profound and time
selection and press the country fervent
Christian fundamentalism of visceral
suspicion of government and racial
resentment and put together these four
factors create a very hard line anti
rational ideology that is very hostile
to compromise and these factors were
already there well before Donald Trump
even thought about becoming president
because they are rooted in unique
dimensions of American history and
culture how did we get to anti-intellectualism
anti-intellectualism
in this country because one leading of
American history would be that the
founding fathers Benjamin Franklin who
made discoveries in electricity and
meteorology you know the intellectual
power that went into the the Federalist
Papers you know and whether you were
more on Hamilton side or Jefferson side
or burr side of some of the arguments
that people who saw the play Hamilton or
a reminded you know really took place
about the nature of society how did we
get from the founding of the country
based on those things to the pervasive
anti intellectualism that you rightly
cite ironically this stems from a
positive dimension of American
exceptionalism namely the fact that
America was the first Western democracy
to emerge from the Enlightenment so the
american revolution of 1776 preceded the
French Revolution of 1789 and with the
bursts of American democracy came an
egalitarian spirit now of course it was
full of contradictions ranging from the
cruelties of African slavery
to the persecution of Native Americans
or the disenfranchisement of women in a
firmly patriarchal society but it was
Niguel terran sentiment nonetheless and
as the historian Richard Hofstadter
explained this a gala turned sentiment
created a populist conception not only
of democracy in parts of the country but
of education where some people started
equating education with elitism
education as a badge of the pursuit of
aristocracy and that fostered a notion
that people really don't need to be too
educated because common sense is just
good enough to understand the world and
to make money and this is the roots of
the intent electoral mindset of not only
Donald Trump but many other American
politicians from Sarah Palin to George W
Bush which seems increasingly rational
at least a goes by listeners anybody
want to call in and talk about American
exceptionalism or anything related with
mugambi zu a professor at Stanford Law School
School
former human rights lawyer here in
Manhattan and now the author of the book
exceptional America what divides
Americans from the world and from each
other and for our audience members here
in the green space you can raise your
hand and we can come around and you can
ask them a question if you like you
mentioned in the context of your last
answer a positive aspect of American
exceptionalism that wound up leading to
anti intellectualism I think your
original framing event of American
exceptionalism was more along negative
lines other other positive
aspects to it that you would say yes
there are many positive dimensions of
American exceptionalism and others that
also contribute to significant
polarization so one major aspect of
American society is that is the Western
democracy by far the highest proportion
of Christian fundamentalists according
to data between a third and 40 percent
of Americans are creationists would
think that God created human beings in
their present form and that the theory
of evolution is false and a similar
proportion believe in epic elliptic
biblical prophecies about the imminent
second coming of Christ and the rapture
but these forms of radical Christian
theology partly stem from positive
dimensions of American exceptionalism
including the fact that Americans have
not experienced as long a history of
religious conflict and clerical
domination as some Europeans did in the
past and therefore many Americans start
to see religions not as social
institutions not as means of social
power that mere means of worship and
that made them less skeptical of radical
conceptions of Christianity which play a
big role today because the religious
Rite is a major political movement that
also embraced at Donald Trump's rhetoric
is that I run to you that with the
United States being as you said the
first country that was formed on the
principles of the Enlightenment that it
would be as religious as it is as
opposed to more rejecting of religion
it's a great paradox in a sense that
several founding fathers including some
of the most influential ones Thomas
Jefferson Benjamin Franklin Thomas Paine
were skeptical of Christian dogma and
among those who held Christian beliefs
many of them were far more moderate than
Christian fundamentalists of today and
how they thought about religion such as
John Adams who was a you terian so it's
a great paradox of historical reversal
let's take a question here in the green
space who's got it hi hi so my question
is about whether you think kind of weak
educational systems are leading to some
of this resentment of the intellectual
classes and that the divide between the
professional classes and the rest of the
u.s. is really what we need to address
the fundamental issue with
anti-intellectualism is not really
poor quality of education in many ways
American education is quite good by
international standards for k-12 as
struggled as a blade but it's not at the
very bottom in the modern Western world
and American University is often
regarded as the very best in the entire
world but endtime collection ilysm is
more about a peculiar conception of
education that can even be shared by
graduates of top universities because
it's a skepticism of education that does
not seem to have a practical purpose
such as an example I provide my book of
a classmate we said well I don't see the
point about learning about history what
is that going to help me in my career
and that this type of mindset among
people who can be very studious we can
be better intelligence of course has a
broader political impact because it
makes people receptive to propaganda by
politicians say about well other Western
democracies live on the tyranny of
socialized medicine or the more guns
that people have the safer society is
and a lot of people graduate from
universities today are not able to make
sense of very simple facts we even had
the example a couple of years ago where
you where this where the governor of
Florida floated the idea of charging
more tuition to students in the state
university who were studying anthropology
anthropology
he mentioned anthropology and other
things like that I guess it would have
included other social sciences because
there wasn't a relationship between
those studies and contribution to the
economy yes and there are many other
examples that provide in my book for
example Ronald Reagan when he was
governor of California complained that
the state's great universities that were
subsidizing intellectual curiosity and
professors retorted that this was their
very mission
we will continue in a minute with
mugambi ziwei whose very mission i
presume at the Stanford Law School is
what we just heard and he's the author
of the new book exceptional America what
divides Americans from the world and
from each other among other things we'll
hear what de Tocqueville observed about
the criminal justice system in the
United States in the early 1800s that
relates to mass incarceration today stay
with us the City of Boston designing a
plan to tackle complicated issues of
race because when you think about what's
happened in the country whether it's
been the accident in Ferguson in New
York or what's happened at Fenway Park
racist remarks all over the place we
need to do better as a society Boston
mayor Marty Walsh that's next time on
the takeaway weekday afternoons at 3:00
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Ryanair on WNYC live from the green
space with Stanford University law
professor mugambi jouer who's the book
is exceptional America what divides
Americans from the world and from each
other and let's take a caller here is
Anne in Brooklyn and you're on WNYC
thank you for calling in thank you for
this excellent show today I had a
question regarding evangelicals who
voted for Trump how do they square with
themselves in terms of voting for a man
who represents pretty much every one of
the seven deadly sins you know is it
just East Coast hatred for East Coast
liberals is it the hatred for education
or was it just simply on the sexism you
know against Hillary Clinton that they
would vote for a person who pretty much
you know he exemplifies so much of what
they're supposedly
against so that's my question thank you
very much
you do know the answer right that does
seem a paradox because after all Donald
Trump does not seem particularly
religious even though he says that the
Bible was his favorite book alongside
the art of the deal but the answer stems
from not only the fact that a Christian
fundamentalists identify with other
parts of it agenda such as repealing
Obamacare but also that Christian
fundamentalism is an ideology that
extends beyond theological questions
like the theory of evolution or cultural
war matters like abortion and gay rights
to other areas because it shapes black
and whites anti rational anti
intellectual authoritarian mindsets and
these are also among the traits of
Donald Trump which helps explain why
they are drawn to this type of leader
you write very interestingly about how
do Tocqueville in the 1830s thoroughly
studied American prisons
I think people associate to Tocqueville
more with studying civil society and
things like that but he also looked at
our prisons and he wrote that in no
country is criminal justice administered
with more mildness than in the United States
States
and you know our listeners know a lot of
them do that we have 5% of the global
population but 25 percent of the global
prison population so what was the
criminal justice system like when
Tocqueville was experiencing it and is
there a relationship between that and
what we call mass incarceration today
it's a great paradox that indeed in
Tocqueville epic in the 19th century
America was advanced in many ways that
took bill wrote a book where he argued
that France should adopt some of
America's that penal practices and today
the exact opposite
experts regarded America as a great
example of things not to do when it
comes to criminal justice and it's also
interesting if we look at the death
penalty today America is the only
Western democracy just to have the death
penalty and is usually in the top five
countries worldwide alongside
authoritarian regimes and dictatorships
in the number of people it executes but
some American states like Michigan and
Wisconsin abolished death penalty
permanently in the 19th century well
before Western European nations now not
only reflects the contrasts of American
society but also how mass incarceration
is so peculiar
and it's actually to the deterioration
of the American social contract because
it's very important to understand that
America has mass incarceration not only
on a scale unprecedented in American
history but practically unprecedented in
America and the history of humankind and
one can really judge how much the
society values human rights human
dignity and equality not by how it
treats the most privileged members of
society but by how it treats the least
privileged and even the worst of the
worst Linda in Princeton you're on WNYC
hi Linda thanks for calling in good
morning Bryan and professors hue oh by
the way professors away the just to go
back for a second you were talking about
the universities and this thing about
anthropology and one should have to pay
more for such things perhaps you've read
robert maynard hutchins he was the
youngest Dean of the Yale Law School I
think at 25 in the 30s he later became
the president of the University of
Chicago and wanted to keep American
universities from being contaminated by
what he called vocational training he
lost out obviously that's what we have
now it seems to me by and large anyway I
wanted to ask your view Samuel
Huntington in one sentence said to
what's basically my view the West ie the
United States in this case one the world
not by the superiority of its ideas or
values or religion but rather by its
superiority in applying organized
violence Westerners often forget this
fact non-westerners never do and I
wonder do you think it seems to me that
this policy of in the greater world has
been turned inward on the people of the
United States themselves especially
black people that organized violence
including emotional and intellectual
violence and I'll take my comment off
the air thank you thank you so we see a
parallel not only between the war on
crime but also the war on terror and how
people think about these issues and very
black-and-white terms that they'll
demonize offenders in America and good
part because of race prejudice and class
discrimination as well against poor
whites and in terms of how to think
about terrorism there's a notion that is
not something that can be explained by
social or political reasons but as some
see something simply shaped by how some
human beings are evil and this mindset
is rooted in different dimensions of
American society and also it shapes us
foreign policy a lot we see that America
is the Western democracy that exempt
itself from international human rights
trees the most often also it's the most
likely to use force and that was
exemplified by the invasion of Iraq
which proved extremely controversial and
to this day I provide evidence in the
book substantial proportion of Americans
40 to 50 percent still think that
invading Iraq was the right decision
let's go to Z bond on Staten Island you
on WNYC with professors you a hello z bond
bond
Jevon you there yes come on and good
money is about how you doing doing all
right okay okay oh well of course before
this one wanted to make a comparison
between you by evangelical Christians
the illusion of Christianity and working
for mr. Trump well my mother likes to
compare African politicians to
Republican politicians
she says the both crave power but they
have no idea as to how to govern or the
one is raw power it doesn't matter how
to get the power so she called them why
didn't gellick are hypocrites I just
wanted to put in and see the our guest
can we actually well that's a pretty big
generalization about African politicians
and Republicans for that matter my
mother say yes so the history rule
number one is listening to your mother
right the history of American religion
and Protestantism is complex and the
Evangel movement is actually not uniform
I provide examples in the book of
figures like Reverend Civic who supports
same-sex marriage and equality and other
progressive causes and that therefore is
it would be incorrect to paint everyone
with the same brush but it but still if
we look at some of their hardline
positions they don't only stand out
within American society but also very
much so by international standards we
just have under a minute left what do
you hope people take away from this book
it's really important to understand the
root causes of why America became so
polarized and also if America is to move
forward there are different things that
people can do not only be well versed in
different fields learn about American
history but also not have an installed
mindset learn about the experiences of
other countries but in the end Americans
that have made so many great
contributions to democracy and to social
progress that it's not only important to
turn to other countries but to turn
inward if America is to move forward and
where is room where there's hope
what is life sorry there's hope Stanford
Law professor boom
amnesia way his new book is exceptional
America what divides Americans from the
world and from each other thank you so
much for coming to the green space today
and thank you all people for coming to
the green space today thank you thank
you thank you and thanks to everyone who
listen from another on WNYC talk to you tomorrow
tomorrow [Applause]
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