YouTube Transcript:
The chat is out of the bag: a stunning leak

[Music]
The
[Music]
Economist hello and welcome to the
intelligence from The Economist I'm your
host Jason Palmer every week day we
provide a fresh perspective on the
events shaping your
[Music]
world Nigerian politics is a nasty place
for women our correspondent said says
that's apparent in the details of a
sexual harassment Scandal that'll be
litigated in a parliamentary hearing
today and there's one behavior that
employees find more annoying than any
other having their ideas stolen but our
columnist says there are plenty of
reasons to forgive thieving colleagues
or to wait for the theft to backfire
[Music]
first up
though 10 days ago America carried out
the largest air strikes on Yemen since
president Trump took office again the
targets were radar and drone systems
used by houti rebels an iran-backed
militia that's been threatening trade
routes in the Red Sea since
2023 you know who wasn't surprised by
the strikes Jeffrey Goldberg
editor-in-chief of the Atlantic magazine
you know why because he had been added
to a group on the encrypted messaging
app signal in which everybody who's
anybody in America's security
establishment was plotting out the
attacks and you know who claimed not to
know a damn thing about it you're saying
that they had what they they were using
signal uh to coordinate on sensitive
materials and having to do with
what having to do with what what were
they talking about with the hooes the
hooes you mean the attack on the hooes
well it couldn't have been very
effective because the attack was very
effective I can tell you that I don't
know anything about it you're you're
telling me about it for the first time
anybody
else it all adds up to a really
genuinely breathtaking lapse in security
whether or not the president knew you
know the kind of lapse that could derail
a Clinton campaign and journalists the
world over are having a field day with
Revelations every journalist looking at
this story is thinking why didn't they
add me because this is an incredible
scoop shashan Joi is our defense editor
and then the second thought is my God
this is just an extraordinary data
breach this is astonishing incompetence
astonishingly bad handling of classified
information and very revealing about the
inner workings of the Trump
Administration okay so let's go through
how this came to pass so it begins on
March 11th Jeffrey Goldberg he's the
editor-in-chief of the Atlantic magazine
he gets a request on Signal which is for
those who who don't use it this is an
encrypted messaging app it's a little
bit like iMessage or Whatsapp it's often
viewed by people in defense and National
Security circles as being a little bit
more secure than those other apps and he
gets a connection request from someone
who appears to be Mike Waltz who is the
National Security adviser of the United
States the NSA two days later things
take an even stranger turn when Goldberg
is added to a discussion group called
the houthi PC small group now I need to
break that down a bit Jason the houthis
are the armed group in Yemen that's been
attacking shipping and PC means the
principal committee which is kind of the
group of senior officials who make
decisions in the US government so this
looks like it's a group that's created
to coordinate upcoming military action
against the houthi militia in Yemen
there are 18 members they appear to
include JD Vance the vice president
Marco Rubio the Secretary of State Tulsi
gabard the Director of National
Intelligence John Ratcliffe the CIA
director Pete hex the defense secretary
many many more as well what then follows
is an incredible series of messages
deliberating over whether the United
States should bomb Yemen and then
ultimately Pete Heth tests the war plans
themselves incredibly detailed messages
about the weapons that will be used the
targets so he ends up knowing about this
strike 2 hours before the rest of the
world and this ends up being a quite
remarkable leak of very sensitive
information and so in those messages
Beyond to the detailed military plans
what do you see there's lots it's in a
way the sort of chat you might have with
your friends Jason except presumably
you're not discussing the bombing of
Yemen it's Laden with Emojis there's a
great moment where you know there's
prayer emojis after the strikes occur
there's one with flexed muscles and
American flags and fire it's it's a sort
of very colloquial casual conversation
Jeffrey Goldberg has been pretty
responsible he's redacted the most
sensitive information in these chats
he's for example not told us the names
of serving CIA officers he's not told us
details of the weapons the targets but
what you see is that the way this
Administration talks about Europe in
public is the way they talk about it in
private they do not like Europeans you
have JD Vance saying I hate bailing
Europe out again Pete Heth says I fully
share your loathing of European free
loading it's pathetic Steven Miller
who's a White House official basically
says how do we Bill the Europeans for
this operation how do we bomb Yemen
without consulting them and then send
them an invoice for it the concern they
have is that reopening the Red Sea which
the houthis are disrupting would benefit
Europe and Egypt more than it would
benefit America so they some somehow
want to know why are we doing this why
is America doing this it gives you a
hint of that opposition to kind of
military entanglement abroad
particularly from JD Vance this really
shows you that contempt for Europe that
we see in public that's exactly what
they think in private as well and in so
far as we haven't learned anything new
about the stance of the administration
on Europe how serious is this breach
really I think it's a pretty serious
breach look officials many countries use
signal to talk to journalists and others
and to talk to each other it's not
unconscionable that Mike Waltz was using
signal it's not unconscionable he has
Jeffrey Goldberg in his contact book you
know officials talk to journalists great
shock I think there's two mistakes here
one of them is Mike Waltz adding a
journalist to this internal chat but the
much much more serious breach is the use
of this unclassified system you know
it's an encrypted app but it's operating
on an unclassified unsecure phone to
discuss highly classified system that's
a breach of American law it's a breach
of the law it's what the Republicans
were very angry at Hillary Clinton about
back in 2016 and by the way one of the
particularly concerning things here is
that Steve witkoff who is really the
point man on Russia Ukraine talks
appears to have been in Moscow at the
time that some of these messages were
being sent to him that raises the
question of whether his phone with these
conversations with that channel and
perhaps many other sensitive Chats on
Russia Ukraine related issues were on a
phone that were accessible to Russian
intelligence Services I think there will
be real questions asked about this you
know last week I spoke on the
intelligence about the five eyes
intelligence Alliance I said allies
would be wondering whether the Trump
Administration is capable of keeping
secrets safe this is not the kind of
thing that will fill them with
confidence on that front but will there
be any accountability is the question
this is an Administration that can deny
deflect and to delay ad nauseum do you
think heads will roll well you're right
it denies it deflects Pete hex's claim
that he wasn't texting War plans appears
to be a lie I think that Mike Waltz is
in real trouble let's remember here
Waltz is more of an orthodox Republican
you know he's not a make America great
again super trumpy guy in the way that
JD Vance is in the way that Steve
witkoff is and so I think Waltz was
already probably on slightly shakier
ground he is also the man who is
supposed to be coordinating these
meetings that's what the National
Security advisor does I think that the
White House will be very angry at him
heg Seth has also made a serious breach
here but hex is more of a trumpy guy and
you can see the way he's come out
fighting is the way that Trump probably
likes so I have a feeling that Waltz
could get in more trouble for this the
National Security Council says there's a
review underway to find out how an
inadvertent number was added to the
chain I don't think we need the FBI for
that Jason I think we can see how it
happened Mike Walt did it but the funny
thing I thought is that they're also
insisting that this exchange was quote a
demonstration of the deep and thoughtful
policy coordination between senior
officials all I'll say is that anyone
familiar with the multi-decade history
of American foreign policy deliberations
has probably never seen a flexing bicep
an American flag a fire Emoji in the
great historical record when discussing
American wars in Vietnam Iraq and Korea
let's remember that this comes days
after Steve witkoff gave an interview to
Tucker Carlson a pro Trump journalist in
which he exhibited breathtaking
ignorance about most basic elements of
his brief in negotiating with Russia he
couldn't name two of the five occupied
regions that Russia claims despite being
apparently quite enthusiastic to give
them away I think that events like this
will compound the sense that this is an
Administration that just lacks a basic
sense of coh cerent foreign policy
process and that should be a concern to
Congress it should be a concern to
Americans and it will be a concern to
allies Shong thank you very much for
your time as always thanks Jason I'll
see you in the economist signal
[Music]
chat my first trial into politics was in
the year
2019 under the platform of the Social
Democratic party in 2019 Natasha akoti
UDA unsuccessfully ran for governor of
Nigeria's Middle Belt State Ki it was a
very tough
Journey it was laed with violence
violence in all forms the physical
attacks of my person my constituents the
my followers who were killed the houses
were burnt down uh um they were beaten
up every time we went out to campaign we
were beaten up we were shot at she lost
that election but undeterred she decided
to run for the
senate or Ogen is our Africa
correspondent the day before that vote
in 2023 she faced yet another obstacle
now all the roads the five roads they
were caught should I say golles were
made out of them five major roads to her
constituency were dug out so that
election materials couldn't get to them
and it took her 6 months before she was
finally sworn in as Senator because she
had to appeal for rejected ballots to be
included in the vote throughout her
entire journey into politics she's faced
violence verbal abuse cyber bullying and
more it seems to be the regular Norm
here especially when you're a woman her
story is a reflection of the harsh
conditions that women face in Nigerian
politics and or before we get into that
sort of bigger political picture how
have things gone for Senator akoti Huda
since she's been sworn in well they're
not going too well at the moment most
recently she struggled to get bills
passed and was told to sit in a remote
corner of the chamber where she'd
basically be out of public view for
seven months I have not been able to
raise my motions contribute to debates
or take second readings of my numerous
bills that the Senate President had
silenced me on the floor of the senate
for the past seven months Senator abti
claims that the reason she's being
singled out like this is retaliation by
God ababio the Senate President for
rejecting his sexual
advances so after refusing to sit where
she was told she formally accused him
the Senate President of sexual
harassment the Ethics Committee got
together and hastily recommended that
she be suspended and the Senate
President did exactly that on March the
6th suspending her for 6 months
withdrawing all her security he said
she's not allowed anywhere near the
National Assembly or her office
basically these are some of the harshest
conditions that we've ever seen
regarding a senator suspension now the
Senate President goak pabio denies
sexually harassing her and he says that
Senator abbotti suspension is actually
unrelated to her complaint against him
that she was suspended for gross
misconduct and there's an initial court
hearing which is slated for today and
coming back to that broader political
picture you were hinting at this is
perhaps not so surprising in Nigerian
politics or is it unfortunately it's not
women are very very underrepresented in
Nigeria's politics it has one of the
lowest shares of female representation
in government in the world no Nigerian
state has ever elected a female governor
no major party has put a woman on a
presidential ticket of the 360 members
in the lower house only 17 are women
Senator Aban is one of only four women
in the entire Senate and the few women
who do then make it to politics often
find themselves silenced which is part
of what is getting Senator so riled up
she was laughed at when she presented
her sexual harassment petition in the
Senate there's been comments about her
outfits some people suggested that her
husband should apologize on her behalf
for making a scene during the suspension
ruling her mic was turned off before she
could even defend herself and what's
behind this what is it that is causing
this disrespect of women in politics I
think the reasons are mostly cultural
ultimately Nigeria is still a deeply
patriarchal society and a lot of people
find and still find the idea of women
being such powerful positions just a
little irksome and politics is just
another area of life where we see that
women are infantilized all the time sen
aoti keeps being referred to by her
first name she's being called a girl a
Troublesome girl and this is why it's
near impossible for women without
powerful backers so whether that's
husbands or bosses to break into
politics because they're sometimes
treated as proxies for men and it's
because these attitudes are so
widespread that senator's case is
resonating with so many many people
there are parallels that can be drawn
with Nigerian women across Society who
are just trying to be good at their jobs
and you say there's an initial court
hearing today about her suspension how
do you think that's going to go it's a
tough question I don't think it's
looking good if the court case goes her
way she could return to her seat but
it's going to be a very long fight
because everything takes ages to go
through Nigeria's courts which means
that there might not even be a ruling
before her suspension is over but also
all the suspensions that have ever been
overturned through the courts before
four have only been of men and of men
with powerful backers she doesn't even
have that much support within the Senate
let alone Beyond it and even among the
few other female senators who are in the
house their responses have ranged from
weak to outright disappointing so not
only is she a woman but she's
politically unpopular and from an
opposition party in fact the party that
she beat to get this seat the one that
she had to fight for her Victory against
is already trying to look for ways to
kick her out so the Electoral commission
is actually received a petition to
recall her from her seat so it's not
impossible that she gets her seat back
that she finds a way to overcome this
but a lot is riding on the presumed
Independence of the
Judiciary all right it's always a
pleasure thanks for your time thanks for
having me Jason
[Music]
[Music]
I don't want to talk about the specific
things that my colleagues do that annoy
me because I think they can hear me
right
now so instead let's talk about
something we can all agree is
infuriating someone's stealing your
ideas and getting credit for them it's
an innate kind of Fury psychologists say
that children as young as five
disapprove of this kind of plagiarism
huh wait till they get job
the concept of credit stealing I think
is pretty familiar to anyone who's been
in the
workplace Andrew Palmer no relation
writes Bartleby our column on work and
management you come up with what you
think is a brilliant wi someone else who
you've just told that to then repeats it
as if it was their own and doesn't give
you the credit and it is according to
most surveys the single most annoying
habit that people encounter if something
is really annoying and happens a lot
what are the reasons to try and remain
calm so just as a coping mechanism are
there arguments to think that actually
this isn't terribly malevolent and I
think there
[Music]
are okay go on when someone Nicks my
idea why do I not fly off the handle so
reason one would be that the person
who's claiming credit doesn't
necessarily realize that they're doing
it there is a phenomenon called
cryptonia which is basically this idea
of inadvertent plagiarism and you can
see this being tested in various studies
where a group of people get into a room
they're asked to come up with ideas to
solve a particular problem and then a
little later there's another session
where they're asked to recall the ideas
that they came up with but only their
own and also to come up with some new
ideas to solve the same problem and
people routinely appropriate ideas of
other people they think they were their
own ideas and also when they come up
with supposedly new ideas they're
actually building on things that were in
the previous session and that's supposed
to calm me down oh they probably didn't
mean to Nick my idea so I should
probably be cool about it I think it
should calm you down Jason cuz if it's
not deliberate if it's not malevolent
then you're probably doing it yourself
you should remain calm okay I recognize
that I have some role to play here but
give me more coping mechanisms so
another one would be that Innovation the
idea of coming up with new things is
itself kind of a copying mechanism that
new ideas are not that new that they
recombine things that have already been
thought of and also that people are
often working towards the same solution
to a problem at the same time they're
doing so independently that's the idea
of convergent Innovation and you can see
that in in various Fields but there's a
very nice new book called like which is
about the history of the like button
popularized by Facebook back in 2009 but
this book which is by Martin Reeves and
Bob good
actually traces out how lots and lots of
different companies for many years
before that Facebook moment were
basically trying to solve the same
problem like how do you have a very
short sharp signal from a peer that you
like a piece of content and that story
and others like it basically suggest
that if you do think of something as
your own idea actually others are likely
to have had it too at roughly the same
time and it's probably building on other
ideas too you see the same sort of thing
in science ideas popping up in in
various places at about the same time so
I I understand that but what about the
part where somebody nevertheless gets
credit for it that's the really annoying
part of this it is annoying and some
people do but they may not be getting as
much credit as you fear so hopefully
people are able to see who's responsible
for things to see through someone who is
relentlessly taking credit for other
people's ideas but also it can back fire
if you take credit for something it
might be giving a different kind of
signal off from the one that you intend
so there's one study that suggests that
managers who both brag a little and give
credit do better that that's a good
strategy only ever boasting doesn't work
for you there's another which looks at
how being proud of something like really
overtly proud of something is actually a
kind of negative signal it suggests
you've hit a ceiling you've exceeded
your performance and there therefore is
a worry that oh okay we've maxed out
here so being slightly
modest being undemonstrative about doing
well can play quite well as well
implicit in in all of that I suppose is
that some some sort of justice is served
then people who go around as braggards
then don't get the credit perhaps we
think they do there are reason to remain
calm credit stealing then is I mean by
that in that casting no big deal yeah I
I'm not going that far I'm basically
trying to give some reasons why it may
not be always malevolent why it may not
always pay off for the credit stealer
but there are bound to be instances
where someone who's doing that a lot and
is doing so deliberately and is doing so
with a degree of self- knowledge is not
behaving well and is probably therefore
aggregating or appropriating credit in a
way that they shouldn't Andrew thanks
very much for your time I'm really glad
I had the idea that we should speak
thank you Jason
[Music]
that's all for this episode of the
intelligence we'll see you back here
tomorrow
[Music]