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WaveForm Unhinged: Episode 1: Erin & I Spill the Truth About References – Not All of Them Are Good!

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No, no, no. Okay. All right. I mean, it

won't be really edited, but it's it

unless really stupid. I just didn't know

if it was being done now. Okay, I'll

quit talking. You're good. Hey, Aaron.

Welcome to the new podcast that I am

starting called Waveform Unhinged. How

you doing, dude? I'm good, man. I'm

happy to uh I'm happy to join you.

Thanks. I appreciate it. As you can tell

with the way I'm holding this mic, it's

a very nonchalant just like two bros

talking kind of podcast. And with this,

I guess particular podcast, I want to

talk about

references and kind of what I've been

hearing around the audio community on

like what a reference is and what people

consider a good or bad reference. And

I'm going to start with this. So, oh

yeah, and this could be very

controversial. So, let's just have fun

with it. Look, I'm engaging

controversial mood or mode right now.

So, I was at the Florida Expo, okay? And

everyone was very excited to go see

these very expensive speakers and rooms

and whatnot. And I want to talk about

one particular room where they had these

like several

hundred,000 speakers, right? Apparently

they're made out of granite, so they're

very heavy, right? Mhm. And it was a

very large room. Uh minimum 20 by 20

minimum, if not 30. It was a very large

room. Yeah. And these

for your international audience feet.

Yeah. Yeah. You'll get that. You'll have

somebody in the comments say, "Give it

to me a metric." So, I'm just letting

you know. Yeah. Okay. You'll learn. I'll

learn at some point. You'll figure it

out. I'll have Google set up on the

other side to like Yeah. No, you got to

Sometimes I even just say, you're gonna

have to Google that because I don't have

time, but you'll have people ask. All

right. Well, the comments I will fix it

whenever. Just delete. Yeah. Yeah.

So they were probably 13 feet apart,

left to right. Like that's how far these

speakers were, if not further apart,

okay? And in the middle you had

these that thick speaker wire with

speaker stands and Macintosh amps and

all that fun stuff. Okay? And they had a

whole bunch of chairs, but they had one

in particular maybe 2 feet away from

where their speaker was. And that was

their sweet spot. And people were

sitting there. And I'm like, "Oh my

gosh, the imaging is so wide and oh,

it's so pinpoint and all these buzz

terms." And I was just so confused and I

was like, "How?" One, it didn't sound

that good. You can definitely tell the

room was not in any way good. Um, but it

was just interesting how people were

like convincing themselves because these

speakers were expensive that that's the

way it should have sounded. So, I just

kind of want your opinion on

like why do people think that the value

of a

system correlates to how good it is

because I mean you review a lot of

speakers from budget all the way up to I

mean I know you've done the the blades

and other kind. So talk to Yeah. Yeah.

Um you know I think people just want to

believe man like Yeah. in everyday life

most of the time with the things that

you use on a daily life not commodity

things but things you actually use uh

typically you do get what you pay for so

I think people expect that uh but then

again it's like you shouldn't expect

that because you should know better from

from electronics and things of that

nature you should know better you know I

don't know man I think people just want

to believe I think that's really what it

boils down to what you typically will

run into is there's there's segments of

price and performance

And you've got to throw in the aesthetic

in there, too. Because if it's always

just raw price versus raw performance,

Yeah. and the overall aesthetic isn't

factored in, then it can go any number

of different ways. But what I've tend to

find is that, you know, for example, and

I say this a lot, a bookshelf speaker

around 800 to a,000 bucks is kind of

like the sweet spot for the best

performance that you're going to get for

like a standard bookshelf speaker as far

as value goes, right? certainly do

better if you spend more, but that's

kind of that sweet spot for value. And

then when you get above that, then you

get to the point where you're maybe

getting incremental gains, you know,

like in car audio where we go from a

vifa tweeter to a scanse tweeter and it

the scans speak is so much better, but

is it 200 times better in our car?

Right? Like those are questions you have

to justify. Yeah. So, when you get up to

that price point, then you either

actually do better, but it's just a lot

more expensive, or now we're introducing

the looks and you get a really nice

looking speaker, but the performance is

set back to one that's maybe like $500.

So, there's always that, you know, that

rolling kind of where are you coming in

from and what do you plan on buying?

What do you plan on getting? Uh, I'm

just more surprised if you're saying

that they were two feet away

from the the speaker like the the line

between the speakers. Yeah, the line the

line. That's dumb. Oh. Oh. Oh, I know.

That's not even remotely how it should

be. I know. I was like even just like

the just perfect triangle. Just the

easiest thing you do like just figure

out how put yourself in there and call

it a day. Done. And I know I know you

talk about this constantly in your

channel. Um, but it's just like it it

baffled me how like people were like

sitting there and they were like getting

emotional and I'm like what is happening

here? And it it just it just surprised

me. And like even people in the like car

community were like dude I s that room

and it was just life-changing or like

whatever you know whatever buzz word you

want to put. I was just like you know

and when I was hearing that I'm like

okay I have to hear this room like

what's so special about it? And then

luckily they were kind enough to play

one of my favorite songs which is it

takes three to tango which is full

instrumental and it has a clarinet bass

clarinet um in the very first 30 seconds

has a killer 100 hertz note in 315 that

will just excite any car or room

instantly and the very first thing it

did was just like completely lose itself

the second that note comes in. And funny

enough, Bri was there and the dude that

was like, you know, showing off this he

was like, "So, what you think?" And Bri

was like, "Not good." And the dude was

just like set back. He was like,

"Really?" She was like, "Yeah, it's it's

not good." And like, you know, I mean,

it's just the truth. I mean, I feel like

people really want to hear, "Oh, it's

the best thing ever." There's a lot of

ego in home audio, just like there is

car audio. And uh in car audio, to to

really have a good system, you have to

be humbled a few times. Yeah. So I I

still I have some instances early on

where I was really humbled and I still

get humbled. Um yeah, I'm just really

surprised that they were listening that

close. It just says a lot. And there the

other thing about those shows that I've

noticed is that

when you go All right. So as a

reviewer, I see other reviewers put out

their content. Yeah. And it'll be

magazines or online websites or YouTube

kind of guys. and they'll put out online

content

and I'll see them at the shows and I'll

talk with most of them because you know

I'm at least friends friend friendly

with most of them and I'll see where

they're listening from and all this

stuff and I'm kind of like oh that's all

right well okay maybe you get a better

seat later on and then they wrote

something up and they're like yeah I was

sitting off to the side and it sounded

all these ways and I was like dude what

like you're supposed to be like this

genius reviewer who's been doing this

for 30 years and you still don't know

that you got to sit in the sweet spot

like h so there's There's a lot of

weirdness that goes on at those shows. I

just don't get it, man. Well, true. And

then, you know, and even at those shows,

and we'll kind of move away from talk

about, you know, decentiz speakers, but

yeah, it's funny how you have this room

that's not treated at all.

And anyone who watches your channels

knows you don't need a treated room with

certain speakers. You know, that's why

you have certain characteristics. Reason

why I bought my first JBL synthesis was

because of your channel. and you're

like, "These are dispersion patterns,

offaxis, on axis, directivity index, and

how EQable it is." And I was like, "I'm

not going to go. I'm not going to have a

treated room. Let me buy speakers that

work in an untreated room." Um, and then

I upgraded to the Rebels um after seeing

your review on the 226. And then I got

the 8 in versions of those. And guess

what? Untreated room. They work great.

Yeah. Um, I personally for the towers, I

went for the 208 versus the 228s. I like

the silk tweeter a little bit better.

Yeah, that's just my personal

preference.

Um, but these rooms that are in these

like hotels, they have like one seat

which is a sweet spot if you will and

then you have like these huge like other

seats and rows and people are just

talking and walking. I'm you guys aren't

actually getting any viable information

on how good the speaker actually is.

Yeah. Um, I think you were the one who

mentioned it in your channel. you were

like, "It's really cool seeing like SVS

or other speaker manufacturers like

here, we'll send it to you to your home.

Try it and if you don't like it, return

it back, right?" Um, you know, I think

that's something that more people should

adopt because you don't know what it

sounds like until it's in your room.

Yeah, for sure. Yeah. Um, I I think that

the main benefit of these shows is if

you're kind of interested in something,

you get to see it in real life. I mean,

and maybe you listen to it in that hotel

room, but the problem is that a good

speaker is going to sound pretty much

the same in most rooms. Yeah, a bad

speaker is not. And you don't know if

it's a good speaker or a bad speaker by

just seeing it in that room. You don't

and you really ideally you have

measurements to make that objective

determination. Is this objectively a

good speaker? What's the radiation off

axis? Does it match the on- axis tamber

and all these kind of things? And if it

does, then you know it's probably going

to perform well in a variety of

different rooms. And if it doesn't, then

it's going to be very room dependent.

It's going to be very aim dependent,

position dependent, and all those other

things, too. So, I I think and I hope I

guess that most of the people who are

going to these shows are going to maybe

just get hands-on, maybe to kind of

check some of the stuff out in person,

maybe get a little bit of a demo, but

then also meet other audio people, too.

Enthusiast. Yeah. And then what you do

is, hey, I've settled down. These

speakers look really cool. I've got

maybe a handful of these. I'm going to

find a local dealer who I can work with

or, you know, I'll order them from a

place that has a a good return policy

and then I'll send them back and pay. I

think it's worth like Crutchville, you

know, has maybe a restocking fee and

it's not too much. I think when you're

spending considerable money on maybe

speakers that you plan to last you for a

long time, take a hit on that 75 bucks

or whatever it is on that restocking

fee. Try them out in your home for sure.

But yeah, so I know you're talking about

the Accora speakers because those are

the ones I can think of that are

granite. Yeah. What are those? I'm

interested in those. The last ones I saw

were their bookshell speakers. And I'm

like, those are Scanspeak drivers. Yep.

And that's a Scanspe Twitter and that's

a Scansspeak illuminator. The first

thing I said I was like, those are

scans. Yeah. And it's it's crazy, too.

That's like, man, I really am so blessed

to have been part of the car audio

community and and still am, I hope. Um.

Yeah. Because I've learned. You're

always welcomed. Yeah. Well, I

appreciate that. I've learned so much,

man, by doing and building and listening

and talking to all these people and and

the DIY aspect that now when I see these

uber expensive speakers and they're

using I mean granted some of them were

using Scan Speak illuminators, they're

like $300, $400 a pop. Yeah. But they're

charging60 or $70,000 for the pair of

speakers. You're like, well, I think

these were $250,000 or 300,000. Jeez,

that's insane, dude. And I that's the

part that I didn't understand. I'm like,

where is this money coming from? I get

it. Grant's not cheap. Cool. But like

you're just ship. Yeah, 100%. I'm like

but you're just using the material to

say using the material at that point in

time. I think so too. I don't think

you're gaining any benefit. I think

there can be benefits in just you know

how how dead it really is but

realistically you know a well- bracraced

well damped speaker box and enclosure

can do that too. Um I don't think people

can some of those attributes they assign

to them I don't think are realistic to

be able to hear. Well a lot of it's just

marketing. you know, they'll they'll

figure out how to market in some way

that they're the only person doing this

and our technology is superior. I mean,

I all the time I seriously could make a

killing in audio if I wanted to. And

like I seriously, man, because I've got

the resources behind me. I've got people

that would back me. I know enough about

what people are willing to buy. Yeah.

That I can make a killing doing this

stuff, man. Just have I could farm it

out, have somebody else build everything

for me and still make a killing. Yeah.

Yeah. Well, especially with the

knowledge you know and the tools you

have, like you said, like you can start

making stuff. Yeah. And have your name

behind it and have the data to prove it

because most companies don't have the

data like you'll be able to show and do

like it'll it'll just be next level. But

yeah, but you mean you got you got to

feel good about charging way too much

money, you know, like these guys that

are charging 10,000 15,000 whatever

crazy amount of money for some speaker

wire. It's like all right, at some point

it feels like you're just creating

robbery. like but people are paying this

so whose fault is it? Perfect. All

right, let's just transition to that

because that's one question I have for

you. All right, so I am in

the crowd. Let's use that word. Oh,

okay. That as long as it's good OFC.

Mhm. It doesn't have any type of like

corrosion or any of that nonsense.

Cable's a cable. And I've taken apart

the Rebels in terms of the speakers and

I'm like I wonder what kind of speaker

wire do they have back here because I

see people I don't have huge huge shout

out to John Centers. He gave me some

pretty expensive speaker cables. He was

just like here I have no use for these.

You can use them. Very nice. Nice

braided. I mean they're about I don't

know 2 in round maybe 3 in. But hey,

when I took out that tweeter, it had

very cheap cables in there, right? And

with nothing crazy. And because you

know, you understood that the money was

spent on the cabinets and the crossover

network. Like that's where the money's

at. All the R&D that went into it

before. Yeah. The stuff you don't see.

Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. And I know Dr.

Floyd Tulle mentioned this. He was like,

why you people spending so much money on

cabling? Doesn't matter. But that's just

my observation. And you know, dude, I've

I've tried expensive cables, especially

in car audio. You know, everyone does

it. for sure. And I' I've noticed zero

difference. What's your input on that?

Uh I tend to say get whatever cable

works that won't corrode like you said

in car because I've I've had some that

has corroded when I've gone and do a new

build three or four months later. Um

it's it's green, dude. It's literally

oxidized rust. It's like what the heck?

It was actually monoprice wire that I

used back then. Um I've used alligator

clips. Yeah. Yeah, I've used alligator

clips. Uh Kelly, one of my friends who

competes, he from Tennessee, he came

over to help me with an install one day

and he was underneath the car and he was

doing something. I can't remember now.

And he gets out, he comes over and he's

like, "What is this?" I got like a 18

gauge little alligator clip and that's

how I have my amp connected to my

tweeter up underneath the dash. And I

was like, "You see what it is?" Like

I've been competing like like, "Dude, it

works." Buts. Yeah, I definitely agree

that you just get the cable that makes

the most sense. I don't know for sure

that you couldn't tell the difference in

maybe like a really really thin gauge

cable and a really really thick cable.

But that's the only case that I can just

logically think of because I've played

around with different cables and things

like that my own and I'm actually

working on organizing a true blind

testing event. Oh, ABX testing. Yeah.

Yeah. locally with cables and then amps

and things of that nature because I want

to do some of this stuff and put out the

information online. Um, basically just

reinvent the wheel. But yeah, man, I

think if you're worried about cable,

then that means that everything else is

locked up. Yeah. And ready to go. And

most likely it's probably not. You

probably got other things you can focus

on in a home or especially in a car.

Yeah. You know, and to me personally,

like the way I kind of I'm a very like

objective kind of person. Um, and the

very first thing I noticed that for just

OEM use, like car, like car use, not car

audio, just car. Yeah. The wires that

they use to transfer data and all that

to the car is not it's not thick. It's

very thin wires. And it's like, if this

is like OE grade and it works for 20, 30

years in a Honda, doesn't corrode, has

no issues, right? Why are we worrying

about cables when

your deadening isn't even right. Like

you have a million rattles and you're

trying to You're over you're telling me

like, "Dude, like the width got so much

better because I had this one brand new

USB cable with a wooden box in between

it and blah blah blah." I'm just like,

"What? What? What are you guys talking

about?" Maybe if there's some kind of

like phase rotation device in the signal

path of that cable, maybe. But maybe,

you know, I really and truly people hear

what they want to hear, man. Yeah, I

mean I've seen

I guarantee you that at least half of

the people who are going to watch this

video, if they've been doing car audio

for any number of years, they can

probably think of at least one occasion

where they thought they made a change in

their DSP and they heard that change and

then later they found out they didn't

hear that change. Yep. I I I mean this

happened to me many times. Happens to

me, too. Yeah. And the the best part I

love is when people like make a small

change or hold up. You know what I

really love doing? And I'm going to like

I'm going to tell everybody whoever

watches this. I love it when like

someone's like, "Oh, dude, I feel like I

hear something." I'm like, "Cool." And I

take out the laptop. I'm like, "Try to

fix this." And I just like tap the

keyboard, make no change. And like, "Oh,

dude, it got so much better." I'm like,

"Oh, awesome." Yeah, that's cool, man.

Nothing changed. Nothing changed. I

adjusted 250 plus 3dB and now it's more

warm. Oh, dude. I love when people say

quarter dB or like a 0.1. Yeah, that

that's the one where I'm

like a half. Okay. A dB. Sure. Oh, for

sure. You know, um when you start

getting into quarters, yeah, your

threshold of hearing, I'm just like I

think if you just tap the keyboard, like

you said, that probably be enough to

make you think you heard the difference.

Exactly. Exactly. I just I really think

that and I and I say this because

there's absolutely people watching this

are going to listen to it and going to

say, "Oh, I disagree." But I think if

they were honest with themselves and

they actually did true blind testing

Yeah. on some of these little itty bitty

things, they wouldn't notice a

difference at all and they could easily

be tricked into thinking they did. Oh,

100%. And that's kind of why I'm I c,

you know, created waveform on hinge to

talk about these topics with experts

like yourself, you know, to like shine

the light, especially to like new people

coming into this. dude. Like, hey guys,

like I know there's a lot of stuff on

the internet people say, but that's not

the foundation. Yeah. And money should

not be spent on $5,000 RCAs when you

don't even have proper dentening or even

crossover's wrong. Like, you've got too

low of a crossover. Like, I don't care.

I don't care that your cable cost you

$5,000 when you're running your

mid-range down to 100 and it should have

been crossed at 300. And all I'm hearing

is just distortion. Distortion. or hey,

let's run a midbase all the way down to

40 hertz. That's a midbase driver. Let's

play midbase out of it. Yeah. You know,

and any appreciable volume at least, you

know, low volume, sure. But if I turn it

up because I want to listen to it, and

the majority of us came from being bass

heads, yeah, we're going to crank it.

So, 100%. It has 10 out of 10 times has

yet to prove me wrong. I've had so many

customers tell me, I don't listen loud,

then I tune it and they love it. What's

the first thing they do? Start clamping

on it. Because that's what you do. like

when whenever it sounds correct, you're

going to start enjoying it. I mean, the

very I think in the first 30 seconds of

when I tuned your Tesla, you went full

tilt. And that was actually by accident

because you I think the steering wheel

was turning. You were trying to go down,

you went up. Yeah. And you just launched

it. I was like, Yeah. Cuz I remember

looking at you and being like, let's

just see what it can do. Turn it up, you

know, cuz I want to know like I want to

know, can I break this? Can anybody else

break this? I mean, that's when I first

started into this, it was all about, you

know, all about the bass and no treble.

Um, but every system that I ever built

was with the mindset that if I toss

somebody the keys to my car and I don't

hang around and babysit them while they

demo it, are they going to break it?

Because, you know, that's the other

thing, too, is when I first got into it,

people would sit in next to you. You'd

be demoing their car and they sit right

next to you. And I'm like, I can't

listen because I feel weird because

you're sitting there staring at me

waiting for you to say or wait for me to

say something to you about how awesome.

So, it got to the point where I was

like, "Well, I'm not going to do that.

Here's my keys. I'll be over there

somewhere. Just come get me when you're

done." Yeah. Uh, but in order to do

that, you have to be able to let your

car take a beating. Um, yeah. Yeah.

Like, I think it's an interesting topic

and you can stop me if you think it's

not, but

kind of in the same vein about making

changes to somebody not knowing. Yeah. I

cannot tell you the number of times that

when I was really heavy on the forums on

DIY mobile audio and a lot of us

competitors were, we would purposely

before a show or a get together meet, we

would

purposely say something in our build log

or post a picture in our build log that

wasn't really the truth because we

wanted to get people thinking that we

were making this change. Um,

interesting. And then like it goes back

decades now and Clifton who was

listening, I'm sure, can jump in on

this. People

would just the easiest one is they would

put a tweeter in the pillar, you know,

or put a tweeter on the sale panel and

it wouldn't even be active. It was just

there for looks and a judge would get

on, oh, it sounds really wide and it's

like everything's buried in the dash

pointers. Yeah. So, it's super easy to

trick somebody. I think if you want

certain effects out of your system

because a judge and you get continuous

feedback that this is the case. Yeah.

That a judge wants X, Y, or Z. Before

you try to do anything crazy, just stick

a fake tweeter there. I mean, you can

buy blown tweeters at at online or eBay

or parts express tweeters all day long

for nothing. Just put it there or put

some put some grill cloth in its place

to make think somebody think that you

got something there. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

No, I can't agree more. I feel like a

lot unless you start really like

training your ears. Yeah. Most of it is

just in your head. And I I I tell this

constantly to people because I find it

funny. It kind of relates back to

references in a car, especially when we

think about bass up front or width being

out or depth. That's all in our head

because that's what's actually

happening. Like the sub is in the back

or up front or your mids are in the

dash, right? In just in my car, in your

car. That's objectively where it's at.

That's it. Everything else that we're

hearing is just the way our ears are

telling our brain how to interp what our

ears are hearing and interpreting. So

it's all kind of an illusion. So it's

very easy to trick people if from the

beginning objectively things aren't even

happening there and it's just subjective

listening. Yeah. Well, stereo itself is

an illusion. Yes. That's what it's

designed to be. And then the recording,

you know, like what we hear depends so

much on the recording. When your

system's done, it's done. You're not

you're not getting crazy stuff out of

your system um just because. Right. So

the the very interesting thing is you

can take different masterings and play

them and you'll get different sounds and

you can take different mixes and play

them and you'll get different sounds and

and I give this example a lot and I know

a lot of people don't care but uh

there's a processing of mastering called

Q sound and one of my favorite albums is

the Madonna right Immaculate Collection

and I remember the first time I listened

to it I was like whoa this sounds like

it's coming from all around me and I

thought oh my stereo is rocking and then

at some point down the line I heard

one of those songs again, but it wasn't

from that same album. It was from one of

her original albums, right? So, it

wasn't done in the same way. And I was

like, "Oh, it doesn't sound as wide."

So, I'm here I am just trying to figure

out like playing with the laptop, making

all these adjustments and trying to

figure it out. And I don't know how long

it took me until I realized that it was

done in a different format. You know, it

was all in the recording. It was baked

in. So, I say that to say that if you go

to a show and you hear somebody's car

and it's playing this song and it sounds

this way, make sure to ask them what

they're streaming off of, what the CD

master is, etc., and then listen back to

your system with that exact same version

before you try to go chasing your tail

to make a change that you probably don't

even need to make a change for. Yeah.

Yeah. No, I could not agree more. I was

actually just playing Vogle the way up

to uh Ohio. Oh. And I was like, you

know, I haven't heard in a long time.

And I was just like, I want to see how

it sounds. And the very first thing like

with the intro, we like, what are you

looking at? And it was just like

everywhere. I'm like, what is happening?

Like, this is so cool. And then the bass

comes, it's like just just on the dash.

It's like doing thing. I'm like, some

it's some good reference music. It

really This is some cool track. I get

slaughtered from the home audio guys

because they're like, "Man, you need to

start listening to jazz or elevator

music." I'm like, "Dude, that stuff

sucks." Yeah, I would never listen to

that. If I'm enjoying a system, I'm

going to listen to what I want to listen

to. I don't care if it's Rat, Dawan,

Madonna, Raising his Machine, Jim

Croachi. Like, I don't care. If I like

the song, I'm going to listen to it. I'm

not gonna That's because we're music.

Exactly. Music. Yeah. Yeah. That's You

don't get me on a rant here. But yeah.

No, I hear you, man. I I'm with you.

Like, I started car audio along I mean,

I've always been into audio since I was

a kid. Like, quick story about Miguel. I

remember being in Puerto Rico when I was

like three. Yeah. My memory goes back

that far. And I had like a little

tricycle with a little boom box on it

like just like duct taped to it and like

I remember that clear as day. Like I've

always been into audio now just as an

adult. Yeah. My car is that tricycle,

you know? And I just like I I love

enjoying music. Every part of my

existence. I always have something

playing. That's just who I am. I think

the the vast majority of us in this

hobby are probably that way on the car

audio side. I've noticed in the home

audio side, there's a lot more like if

you take it in ratios, right? There's a

lot more people on the home audio side

who are just going after the the audio

jewelry, right? They're not really music

first. It really is the object first.

Car audio isn't really like that

because, you know, you really don't get

to see it in car. You don't get to drive

from the back of your trunk unless

you're, I don't know, somebody like

Brian Mitchell or something like that

where you get to see everything in front

of you or Chris Payton in his Civic, you

know, where you got everything up front.

But yeah, I mean, so the jewelry stuff

is like the extra stuff in car audio,

the jewelry stuff in home audio, it is

the extra stuff, but you see it. So

people go after that more directly than

they do after the the replay and the

music playback. It's more of a furniture

piece and Yeah. I mean, a lot of it too

is architectural. I mean, really. Yeah.

So, you run into a lot of people who are

really kind of uppy about what they

because they've been trained, oh, audio

files have to listen to this, so to be

an audio file, I also have to listen to

this. It's like, no, dude, music first.

You know, you talked about you. I've got

a picture of me when I was like two or

three dancing on my coffee table to uh

Michael Michael Jackson's Thriller. And

then I have really fond memories, and

I'm going say this because I'm curious

if anybody listening also remembers this

when I was about eight or nine. So this

is like way before your time is probably

like 189 1989. You wait 18. Hold up. How

old are you, bro? Hey, look. I age well.

What can I say? Probably 89 or 90. They

had these things called pocket rockers

and it was like a little miniature

cassette tape like probably like that

big, you know, and it had one song on

one side and another song on the other

side. So I had two that I can remember.

I had uh the Bengals and uh like Walk

Like an Egyptian. I can't remember what

the other song was. And then I had Huie

Lewis in the news. um hit to be square

and I remember just riding up and down

my street on my bike just listening to

that over and over. Yeah, dude. Just

over and over like get down to the other

end, flip it around, ride to the other

end, you know? So, yeah, dude. It's

music first for sure. Music's always

first, you know, and I've gotten an

appreciation for like good masterings

and like, you know, because the circle

confusion exists, you know, whoever's

read Dr. Floyd Tool's book, it's very

apparent. Long story short, for people,

the listeners and watchers that don't

know, essentially the recording studio

has their own setup that they have and

how they tune to for their speakers and

then that gets reproduced to your send

and then yours has a completely

different like coloration or

characteristics to that and then it's

just continuous loop of no one actually

knows what the artist like intended

because the artist isn't there. Yeah.

Even the artist doesn't know sometimes

because I mean what they what they got

is different than what the producer came

up with, you know? No, 100%. And just

like you said with like the Q sound, I'm

pretty sure Madonna didn't want what are

you looking at to come from like

everywhere in your car, but it was cool.

She probably gave it her blessing at

some point, but the original album

wasn't like that, you know, so they go

and change it completely to get

something else. No, 100%. But music is

fun and that's why we do this for um for

sure. But let's talk

about All right, this is going to be a

fun one. Okay,

so do bigger drivers, yes, produce a

bigger sound stage? No. Okay, cool. I

know that. But a lot of people think No,

that the only way to have a big sound is

to have a 5 in or 6 inch mid-range. And

that if you take a bookshelf and you

take a tower, well, the tower is going

to have a much bigger end. You know, I

know

that I'm trying to figure out if I

should say this or not. I feel like I

should just should. If you're gonna say

a name, maybe not, but not a name. Okay.

A brand. No. A car audio company that

makes money. There are classes out

there, okay, that have several different

references

with different size drivers that

apparently produce different size

images. I'm going leave it as that. The

people who know

know different size drivers inside a an

an enclosure a home for a home will

produce or can produce a different image

in terms of size.

Yeah. So I know that that that's not

correct from honestly from you. It was a

video you produced years ago. Yeah. And

you literally you know we you talked

about this and I was like that makes so

much sense. But I feel like a lot of

people just kind of like don't pay

attention sometimes, you know, to that

because it makes too much sense and

they're like, "Aaron can't be right." So

I'm bringing it up now again because

you're spot on on that. So why why is it

that it doesn't produce a bigger sound

stage or bigger image? Well, like so the

first thing you got to think about is

you have to be you have to establish the

difference between nearfield and

farfield. And and there's two different

ways that the term nearfield is used.

One is for you're close enough to where

the reflections in the room don't

matter. And near field is typically

going to be like desktop speakers or if

you're an engineer, you're in a studio

and you're mixing and mastering and

you've got them so close to you that the

reflections off the wall are so far

delayed. They're so low in level

compared to the direct sound that you're

basically only listening to the direct

sound. That's one term for nearfield.

Um, the other term that we use in home

audio is, or the other way we use it for

home audio is you're far enough away

where all the drivers match. You know,

they they blend together. So, your

tweeter and your mid-range blend

together as one cohesive unit. Uh, you

know, if you were really really close,

then you could be between the NLES,

right? Because they they depending on

the crossover, they might cancel out at

certain frequencies, but if you're far

enough away, then they should be blended

pretty well together. So, I say that

because I want to focus on the latter

one. Okay? If you have your face right

up next to a big 15inch woofer and it's

playing mid-range duty, it's going to

sound bigger than your face because the

whole surface area that thing is playing

and your face isn't 15 inches around.

Okay. Yep. But we're taking that out of

the equation. We're talking about if

you're listening at a farfield distance

where all the drivers have combined.

What's farfield? Give me farfield. Well,

so it depends. Um, and it really does

depend on the speaker, but if you kind

of want to give it a rule of thumb, I've

seen people use anywhere from three to

five times the largest dimension of the

speaker itself. Uh, but really, you

know, if you picture a standard

mid-range and a tweeter, you like a

midwuffer and a tweeter. So, a six and a

half inch and a oneinch dome tweeter on

like a bookshelf type size speaker, you

know, a meter typically is adequate to

be in the far field because the tweeter

and the mid-range have aligned

themselves in propagation. So they

create one cohesive wavefront. Um, for

very large speakers, dude, you could be

talking meters away. And I've just I've

got a review of a tower speaker coming

up soon that's about 52 or 53 inches

tallow. And the manual for the

manufacturer says that you need to be 4

meters or more.

They say you can be 3 meters, but

ideally you're four meters or more.

Yeah. So you're telling me that you

don't always want to buy the biggest

tower and put in a small room? In a

small room. Yeah. Yeah. Crazy. true as

well. Uh, so with all of that said, and

hopefully everybody followed me because

I tend to go off on tangents sometimes.

No, you're good. I think the easiest way

to think

about a small speaker sounding big or

vice versa or the sound of the stage

being large depending on the size of the

speaker is you've got 3-in mid-ranges

pillars. They're time aligned, they're

phase aligned, everything's EQ, all that

stuff. Everything sounds great. Nice

solid center image. Uh maybe it's like

this big around, you know, whatever.

Yeah. The stage is, you know, reasonably

large or whatever. Yeah. Take one of

those mid-ranges, flip it out of phase.

What happens to your image? Blows out.

Right now, there's no focus. Yeah. And

if there is, then something's wrong. Uh

but it's huge, right? So, you would say

that's a big sounding speaker, right?

Well, it's because it's wrong. Yeah. And

what I've run into is most of the time

that people say big speakers sound large

is because the crossover between the

different drivers are not done well to

where the different drivers integrate.

So you're left with all these little

weird phase anomalies where things just

don't integrate well. And now the

speaker sounds instead of like one point

source, one cohesive wavefront coming at

your head, you've got this really large

sound that's scattering from the

speaker. Um even line arrays don't work

like that. line arrays spread sound

evenly, but it's designed to where you

can be in different places and have

essentially the same sound. But those

are kind of a an anomaly in the home

audio and car audio world. So, yeah, I

would say that if you are under the

notion that just because a speaker is

large means it's going to sound big, uh,

that notion is probably because you've

listened to some really poorly designed

speakers. As simple as that. Which

brings me to my next point, which is

well, two points on this. Let's start

with two points.

Two chains. No, there you go. All right.

Yeah, I I had you, dude. I had you.

Yeah, I had you, bro.

So, let's go back to expensive speakers

and just talk about speakers in general.

Yeah. The very first thing that you

taught me because of your channel is,

hey, objective measurements make a huge

impact. Yeah. Um, and when you have

these objective measurements, you can

kind of understand and pick apart what's

just you paying for the brand name and

what's actually a really good speaker.

And you start realizing, like you said,

there's a beautiful sweet spot that

exists where like speaker's really,

really, really good, right? Anything

more than that, you're buying furniture.

Mhm. and or the opposite end where you

are now getting a less a worse

performing product. Okay. Um so let's

take a the Rebels that I have the F208s,

right? Those actually you haven't

mentioned those. Uh let's use We can

start with those. That's fine. Let's use

the 226Bs. Okay. Um because those are

they're very similar. They have pretty

good directivity index. Pretty good on

and off axis response. Yeah. very decent

dispersion in terms of um horizontal and

vertical. Not too bad. You always have

the issue because the tweeter separate

from the mid-range noticed driver,

right? But if it did like the caps do

and we'll talk about the caps later on.

Um but for the most part, that speaker

is a very well-designed speaker. Um and

you can pretty much put it anywhere like

you said and it's going to sound

correct. Now, the room's going to play

an effect on it below the shorter

effect. So, below 500 hertz, the room's

going to play a much bigger impact. But

below, well, excuse me, above 500, that

speaker's engineered. Yeah. Um, to sound

the way whoever designed it should have

been, right? Um, and I'm specifically

talking about the 226B in this scenario.

Now, let's take another speaker that I

know does not measure well, the clips.

Okay. um the heresy for that's a

different yes the heresy force where a

lot of people especially

[Music]

I won't say the older community the

people who have a lot yeah I knew what

you were trying to do yeah let's just be

real I mean it is what it is yeah yeah

um they hold that speaker in very high

regard they do but it is not a good

speaker objectively and people who care

about sound subjectively also not good

either yeah I'm not fond of it either at

least to me um

And another one that I personally don't

care for are like the Bowers. I I don't

think they sound good. I I I've never

have and I know I've looked at

measurements before and they don't

measure all that well either. Mhm. Um,

why is it

that these companies are can just like

blatantly just like say whatever they

want to say on marketing and just like

go off their name? Because I mean you

reviewed so many speakers like you I

feel like you have had to see a pattern

continuously from speakers.

[Music]

Um, honestly man that's kind of tough. I

mean sometimes I wonder like are there

not laws preventing this? you know, the

specs may say a frequency range, let's

say like plus or minus three dB between

this frequency and that frequency. And

then I get it and I'm just like, whoa,

that's not even close, right? Like

that's not even close. So, okay. And

then then a lot of just marketing lingo,

you know, just something to capture

people's attention. And I run into this

even with YouTube, man. And I mean,

like, I try really hard to not do

clickbaity

titles.

And this is this one's kind of tough for

me. It hits it hits close to home. And

so, I'm trying to be careful of how I

word this, not to piss anybody else off.

Um, I could go fullboard clickbait and

get more views. I don't know if it would

like blow my channel up or anything like

that, but it would definitely make a

difference in the amount of views that I

get for sure. Yeah. Um, but I try to

also be reasonable with it. So, I'm

trying personally to find this fine line

between, all right, well, what's going

to gather people's attention and what's

full-blown like just a BS title or a BS,

right? Yeah. So, and and for me, because

I'm trying to do something a little bit

different and not just make money off of

it, like I'm trying to also provide some

education and some actual information.

Um, I really do want to get people's

attention, right? Like I want people to

come in and click it and then like watch

a few videos and say, "Oh, there's

actually something to having these kind

of measurements." I'm not trying to say

I'm trying to convert, you know, anybody

over to thinking that measurements are

the end all because even I don't believe

that. No. But I want people to

understand that objective metrics

definitely are helpful when you're

trying to make these kind of decisions.

So with that

said, I don't really fault manufacturers

for saying some of the things that they

do, but then other things that I read,

I'm just like, who cares, right? Like,

and then are people really that

gullible? And then are are do people

really think that that thing is what

matters? And a lot of times they do. uh

the ones that I find that really push

these

weird advertisements and these weird

sayings and slogans and whatnot are the

ones their customers are the ones who

really don't like when you say anything

bad about their brand. So, it's really

it's really kind of a a weird a weird

thing overall.

So, kind of going back to the clips

thing, what I will tell you in doing

this for a number of years, and Clips

isn't the only brand. They make certain

products that do well, that sound good,

that objectively perform well, and I

also think they sound good. Um, and then

they make other products that

objectively are very poor performers,

and I also just don't care for the sound

of Yeah. But you're talking about, you

know, the older

generation. There's legitimacy to that.

I've talked to a few different dealers

who carry that brand and they said,

"Hey, we saw your review of this thing

and yeah, but you know the people that

do come in and buy it, they're buying it

because when they were kids in the 70s

or 80s, yeah, their their dad had this

system and they want to recreate what

their dad had." And it's very very much

nostalgic and even those guys who own

the shops are just like, "Yeah, they're

they're really not that great sounding,

but people still want to buy them." And

most of the time it's for the nostalgic

factor. So there's there's that, too. I

mean me, I've just got some Macintosh

amps and a lot of that is because of

nostalgic reasons. Luckily, they sound

really good and and they do what they're

supposed to do. But would I spend that

much money because I think they sound so

much better than anything else? No.

Absolutely not. Yeah. So, there's

definitely a line between, you know,

personal preference, personal feeling,

and then actual raw performance. And I'm

hoping that people understand that

there's a way

to discern what good is objectively

versus bad. And if you still want to get

the thing that objectively isn't that

great, go right ahead. That's fine.

Yeah. Well, the reason, and this is all

like kind of leading up to this last

point, which

is I I I find it interesting how people

will throw out a name brand, you know,

or an amount of money. People be like,

"Well, I only listen to a room that's

$500,000 for my reference." Like, that's

it. Like, if if it's not that, then it's

just not good. Okay. And I've been Yeah.

Well, I've said in million-dollar rooms,

and I'm just like, "This is not good.

This is just terrible." Um, you know,

and or on the opposite crowd, which is

like, well, I only go to live

performances and that's how I have my

reference and that's it. Okay. And I

think in what at least what I do in car

audio and home audio as well, I think we

lose the part is that like there is no

one reference and it's impossible to the

reference should be getting the artist

and be like, "Hey, does this sound the

way you wanted it to?" Right? But that's

near next to impossible at least for me.

I don't have those connections to be

like, "Hey, the Dire Straits crew, come

here. I really want to see if my rebels

sound the way you wanted it to, right?

You know, it's just not going to happen.

Yeah. So, when I hear people like, "Oh,

well, I want this song." Like, for

instance, I had someone hop in my car

and they're never has have they heard

this song before. And I asked them and

they're like, "Dude, I don't know. Like,

that guitar just didn't have enough life

to me." That's what he said. And I asked

him, he like he said that I was like,

"Hey, all right, cool. Thanks for the

feedback. Quick question. Have you ever

listened to a song before?" He said,

"No." And I was like, "Internesting."

And I just left it as that. I'm just

like, how do you know that's not the way

things are supposed to be? Yeah. And you

know, there is that that's another just

level to a circle confusion, which is

like everyone has their own

interpretation of what things supposed

to sound like, right? But that doesn't

mean that the artist or the mixer

produced it that way. So if a trumpet

doesn't sound as lively as you're used

to because you're a trumpet player,

guess what? Maybe it wasn't mastered

that way. Yeah. The recording. Yeah. So

that's why when it comes to going back

to the objective measurements of finding

a speaker that

objectively is good will get you closer

to a good reference to understand what

that song was supposed to sound like

because it doesn't have all these weird

anomalies coloring to sound like crazy.

And to me my endgame speaker which knock

on wood Bri will let me buy um are the

KEF blades. I have heard those things

many times before and I actually put

them once again, thanks Sean centers

right next to the F208 like 208 blades

and I had actually had the um I had my

old JBL synthesis Revel 208 and Blades

and I was able to like compare each one

and the more money you spent at least in

this comparison it did get better. Was

the jump from the 208 to the blades

five times the amount of money? No, it

was not. Or was it eight times?

Whatever. Right. Yeah. But at least to

me, one, I love the way they look. I

love the dispersion patterns of a

concentric driver. Yeah. And I think

that KEF is probably, at least in my

opinion, one of, if not the only brand

that knows how to really make a

concentric driver. Yeah. That the

mid-range doesn't affect the tweeter

dispersion when the mid-range is moving

in and out. Right. Gench. Gench is

another one. Oh, yeah. Thank you. Yes.

Andrew Jones at Mofi does a really good

job with that, too. Yeah. Yep. Yep. And

Andrew Jones, he also did it with the

Elac Novice as well. Yeah. Um Yeah.

Andrew Jones. Yeah. I've actually spoke

to Andrew Jones several times on the

phone. He's a smart dude. He's super

nice. Yeah. Yeah. He's super nice. Super

nice. Um but it's

like objectively these speakers measure

really good. All all three of them do.

And the more money you spend the better

they are. But it was like with these KEF

blades, I don't see how you're getting

better. And then funny enough, you did

your measurements and you pretty much

said the words out my mouth. You're

like, I don't know how you really gonna

get much better than what these blades

are doing. Yeah, it's tough. I mean,

there are certain things about them that

I personally would want different,

right? Like the

their radiation windows about plus or -

50. I would personally want it about

plus or minus 60 because it seems like

every time that I really just enjoy a

speaker and feel like that nice

spaciousness. Yeah. And then I go and

measure it and I look at the data, most

of the time it's like around 60, maybe

plus or minus five within that, but it's

around 60, you know, 60 or 70. And

that's something I look for in a

speaker. And that's just another thing

about the data, you know, like do I like

narrow dispersion or do I like wider? If

if I like something below 50 degrees

wide, plus or minus 50 degrees, then I'm

gonna look at that. If I want something

wider, then I'm gonna look at these

options. Yeah. Um but yeah, no, I agree

with you. So, with the cast, the thing

that because I'm I'm I don't know that

I'd say I'm a fanboy. They've got some

designs that, you know, aren't

fantastic, but the Blade 2 Meta that

I've heard in my room was like freaking

amazing, dude. It's still the best

speaker that I've heard to date. Really.

Um, the thing that I liked about it was

everything came from a true so source

point, right? They didn't have the

woofers below it or above it or anything

like it was all up here. And I've never

heard a speaker do the things that that

speaker did. And that's why I said I

don't know that I don't know what else

you do to get better than that. I really

don't. Now, having said that, would I

consider other options for other

reasons? Yeah, sure. I mean, definitely.

But I still think it's a fantastic

sounding speaker. Yeah, because those

aren't output monsters. No, they're not.

Yeah. Yeah, they're not like And that's

another thing to consider is like, are

you They get low and and they get loud

enough for most rooms, but if you have a

large room, you might still want to

complement them with a subwoofer. Yeah.

Well, just in general, because I know I

mean Bri and I are thinking about like

creating like a movie room. And it's

like, could I use these for like theater

use? And then that's kind of Yeah. dual

purpose.

You could. Yeah. But, you know, like

right now, like my re when I went from

the um this JBL synthesis with the with

the horn to the Rebels, I saw a pretty

big difference just in terms of like how

loud I'm willing to push this thing

during movies. I was a lot more dumb

with the synthesis because I knew the

tweeter was not going to blow on me,

right? And funny enough, I actually blew

a tweeter on the Revel. I did, you know,

and they sent me a new one. All right.

Um I think it was just something weird

happened. I was I wasn't even listening

loud. I was in like 95 dB. That's loud,

man. That's loud. Not too loud. That's

That's pretty loud. I was getting loud.

Uh but it it was like I was like well

into the hundreds. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. But

like and yeah, out of nowhere it just

like one side just sounded like it just

lost everything and it was the right

side. Yeah. That always sucks. I hate

when And I'm like, "What just happened?"

And I go there and I just smell it. I'm

like, "Well, there goes the tweeter."

And I was like, "Man, that tweeter's

doing a lot of work." Cuz it almost

seemed like that whole tower just like

went away. Yeah. Oh, it's it's wild when

you lose a drive and you're like, "Yeah,

that doesn't make any sense. What

happened?" It was only playing this

band. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. At least

with home audio speakers, when something

like that happens, it's easy to replace.

With a car, you got to pretty much get

everything gutted from the car to get to

that speaker. You got to go underneath

the dash, rerun the wires, and all this

stuff. Yeah. So, I've dove into because

I really want to talk about references,

which we are. Okay. Yes.

I've been diving into headphones lately,

okay? Um because I think it was Harry

who was

like you can't really use headphones as

a good reference. I'm like, I don't

think that's true because I feel like

when you get a headphone that's made

well um in terms of like its sound

signature and just like car audio and

just like home audio, there are people

that nerd out on headphones and they

have honestly it's I have been doing

crazy research. I've learned a lot about

how like the ear works and ear gain and

all this stuff because of headphone

research. Mhm. And they have rigs and

everything that tests just like you do.

Yeah. Headphones. And the one that I end

up going with are the Focal Clear MG

Pros. Um and they're open back and I

have a Fio M17 whatever. Whatever this

huge brick. How much are they paying you

to say this? Uh zero. I wish they were

paying me. I wouldn't be living here.

Yeah. got to talk to somebody about

that.

But of course, I only use a DAP for

headphones because they don't belong in

a car. Everybody dabs don't belong in a

car. Okay, I'm done with that. Um, yeah,

I've run into that myself.

So I've in my car what I've been able to

do because I started realizing my brain

forgets what I heard from going from my

living room to my car and those small

nuances which I'm trying to dial in and

figure out how to do it so I can repeat

it to other customers. I'd lose it by

that quick like 15 second walk or 20

second walk. I lose what I heard and I'm

like, "Oh wait, was that right?" And I'm

going back and forth. So I got these

headphones. like put them on, take them

off, second later I click play, I can

hear it. Yeah. And a lot of people are

like, "Oh, well, like headphones don't

stage." Yes, they don't stage in front

of you, but like if you figure that your

head is the stage, then you can quickly

start placing things on where they're

supposed to be. Just imagine it out out

in front of you. Yeah. Yeah. Within

reason. Sure. Yeah. Within reason. The

first thing I noticed was just like

headphones are great on knowing how bass

is supposed to sound. Yeah. Because the

room isn't there. you take away the room

and if it's a good design headphone,

you're going to have all the attack and

bass. And the one thing I I've been

realizing in the past like six months is

car audio people are constantly wanting

more and more bass. I don't know why

relative to like a home or headphones.

Yeah. Like it with my Rebels when I

first started or with my JBL's, I

noticed that the bass was always like

light and airy but still had all the

impact. But in my car, I wanted it to be

like by the time I hit 20, like plus 30

dB. I'm I'm definitely exaggerating.

Yeah. Yeah. No, you know, like you want

so much more like you want it to just

like hurt you and how much bass you

have. It's like if you start taking away

bass, then it almost seems like you have

more impact and attack. You do. No.

Yeah. Because the the impact and attack

are in the mid-range.

And that's where that's where that

definition Yeah. And the tweeter, too.

Lower tweeter especially. Like that's

where that definition is, you know? So,

um, but upper mid-range. Yeah. Like a

lot of it lies even like 6 to 800 where

the snare is, man. You you add a couple

little dB like somewhere in that right

region and it makes all the difference

in telling like the you can like the

skin effect, right, of hitting a snare.

So, but the other thing that I've

noticed, I mean, it goes in tandem with

what you're saying is car audio people

want more bass. Yeah. I've noticed that

to be true, but what I've tend to find

is that it's because there's something

not aligned correctly between their

midbase and their sub. So, they're

trying to make up for it in overall gain

and then it just washes out that lower

midbase, lower mid-range area where that

detail kind of lies and it gets muddied

up. And so, so then it's just like

you're running back and forth trying to

fix this thing and try to fix this

thing, but your problem is over here,

right? Yeah. No, no. I I cannot agree

more with you. And the one thing that

I'm trying to make people like stop

doing is immediately cutting 2K down.

I'm like, guys, that's your like that's

like your upper mid-range. Like that's a

lot of where your I call your attack and

details coming from. And the second you

scoop that out, you lose it, right? And

you know, of course, it's a balance

between the ear gain and how your ears

and everyone is going to interpret 2K to

4K slightly different by the shape of

our ears and whatnot and how big your

head is. But don't just immediately like

bake into your curve, hey, I'm going to

scoop out 2 to 4K because I just don't

like it. Like you don't know what you

don't like. just tune it flat and then

just go through bay limit or pink noise

and then when you hit it you you will

know when the ear gain ear gain region

happens because your ears are going to

start like hey this isn't comfortable.

Yeah. Um and then you can start like

tailoring that a little bit and it's

also the recording too, right? So

there's always that um

that's that's a tough factor too. Going

back to the headphones thing, I think

it's great. You've got to have a known

good reference, right? So, you've got to

have some kind of measurements for

something like that because you need to

know what those what those headphones

look like. If you go on to strap some

any old headphones on, they're going to

impart their own coloration and then

you're then that's a circle confusion

too, right? Because then you're trying

to tune to that headphone curve and that

headphone curve is not good. No. But

yeah, I mean I've done the same thing. I

remember when I used to sit there with

my iPod and then I would have my iPod I

would have two iPods, right? I had one

iPod in the glove box and the other iPod

in my hand and I would have the

headphones plugged in and then I would

listen to the song through my stereo in

the car and then I'd put my headphones

on and I did that back and forth. And I

know a few guys who have done setups in

their own car where their headphones go

like John Kaiser. I don't know if you

remember John um because I don't know if

he's still competing and I don't think

he is but at one point he had it set up

to where he had I think it was an RME

I don't know if he had the whole DACK in

there but basically like he had a setup

where he could plug right into that and

with headphones and listen to it and

then take those off unplug. Yeah. Yeah.

and he tuned that way. Like he would he

would tune, you know, via DSP computer,

but then he would go doing his

finetuning by ear to try to match what

those headphones what his reference was

like. And I think headphones for a tonal

balance reference is kind of a

no-brainer on it just makes everything

agree more. Takes it takes everything

out of the equation, but you have to

trust or know that your headphone is a

good reference. Yes. And one, just like

we just spoke about home audio, just

because you have a brand name next to

them does not mean they're good. There

are many Focal headphones. I'm going to

know the Stellios close back suck.

They're not good. And objectively, you

look at the measurements, they're not

good. Yeah. But these Focal Clear MG

Pros, the MG Pros, the red ones, you

look at the rig that they measure it

with, and guess what? It measures

really, really well. Okay. Um, and then

you put them on and because these are

open back, you get a little bit a lot

more, not a little bit, a lot more

spaciousness than some of the closedback

headphones, you don't get that bottom

end grunt that, you know, the closbacks

give you, but you can at least for the

most part understand, I call it 40 Hz

and above what the bass should sound

like. Um, I think it's just a a good way

for car audio people to like realign

themselves cuz I feel like a lot of

people go from being a bass head and

then like I want to do SQ and at least

for me when I first started I struggled

with that and I always ask like oh how

do I get bass up front and then you know

when everyone tells you like turn down

your subbase I'm like this isn't even

enough now that doesn't make any sense

what are you talking about I need 315s

back there to the thing yeah to make up

for all the the phase cancellations that

are going on because I don't know any

better. That's the real truth. And as

I've learned and grown throughout the

years, I mean, dude, I remember what,

six, seven years ago now. I used to hit

you up while messing like, "Hey, dude. I

know you don't know me, but like Oh,

yeah. Yeah. You know, I just like asking

you questions because I started watching

Aaron's Audio Corner and I was like,

"Dude, you know a lot. I know nothing.

Teach me." Yeah. Well, I still don't

know as much as I would like to know,

but I've learned a lot through trial and

error and making pretty big mistakes.

Oh, dude, I failed so much it's not even

funny. You got to fail uh in order to

Well, at least unfortunately I do. I

have to fail to learn. Yeah. So, but

yeah, I remember meeting you at the

Texas show for the first time. You were

driving. Was it a Mini Cooper or

something like that? No, it was a Black

Mazda. Was that what it was? I don't

know why. I thought it was black. You

had audio frog stuff in there. Yeah. And

it sounded so bad, dude. It was so bad.

I No, you're right. It sounded terrible,

dude. It sounded so bad. I really don't

I don't know if I ever actually heard it

that you didn't. Thank god you didn't

because I tuned it flat. And when I mean

flat, I literally flat flat. Flat flat

because I read it on a Reddit post. I

said that's what they wanted. So, I

turned it flat. Flat room. Flat in ear,

flat in car. Terrible. Terrible.

Terrible. You do not You only want flat

and a coat when there's nothing around

the room. There's no reflections. You

just want what's coming directly out of

this thing. Yeah, that's flat. Anything

else, you don't want flat. Not flat. Oh,

on that standpoint also, everybody, if

you're trying to EQ speakers, one, if

they have measurements, get them. See

what the DI is because it'll tell you if

it's going to be good or bad eqing that

region where you don't like. Yeah. But

two, don't EQ about 500 hertz. Yeah.

Typically, no. I mean, typically. Yeah.

So there the caveat to that is and when

we say 500 hertz just like for those who

don't know basically there's a breaking

point in the room and it's a transition

range. It's not I say four to 600 hertz

for most rooms is kind of where that

region is. Um but it depends on the size

of your room and essentially what it

does is it turns from where the speaker

is the dominant source of what you're

hearing to in lower frequencies the room

is the dominant source for what you're

hearing. And so when Miguel says 500

hertz, you know, it's it's a region and

Yeah. Yeah. It's Yeah. And it's not

because I've made this mistake too of

saying 500 hertz and and I've gotten

people say, "What happens at 500 what's

like?" Well, it's a transition. It

basically goes from speaker speaker

room, right? Like it's more and more

important in the room. Um but yeah,

don't don't tune for flat in a room. No,

for sure. I've done that plenty of

times. Direct live 20 to 20, baby.

car audio was just like, you know,

everybody. So, the problem is the RTA

competitions when I was started

competing, which was around 2007, I

think, was my first competition. So, I

did car audio before that, but I didn't

go to my first comp until 2007, I think.

Um, I saw the RTA stuff that people were

competing in. And in RTA, you competed

to where all the little dots were flat,

right? And the more flat it was at the

higher SPL, the better score you got for

RTA. But what I didn't realize was that

RTA had nothing to do with how good the

car sounded, right? You did not want

flat from 20 to 20 in a car or home or

again a headphone. So, you got to keep

that in mind. Going back to not tuning

or EQing a speaker and for home audio

above, you know, that transition range.

Um, I I tend to agree because the idea

is that you've bought whatever speaker

you like the sound of and you don't

really want to go messing with it. You

definitely don't want to let Direct or

Odyssey or anything like that just go

and do its own thing all all

willy-nilly. I think if you have a good

idea about what that speaker is already

doing and you're kind of looking at it

from a budget perspective saying, "Well,

this speaker may not be very linear, but

it's in a range where I can still EQ it

and the reflections match the direct

sound, so it it'll do what I need to do

tonally, then yeah, go ahead. Save you a

thousand bucks. get you the one that's

EQable and then EQ that to a more linear

response anooic and then put it into

your room. But without that anooic data

and objective measurements, you don't

really know. So you need that

information, which is the point I was

just going to make. I'm like, but how do

you know? And and if people don't

understand what the data is telling you,

which I think is a lot of the issues,

not only in car audio and home audio as

well. was like there's the camp that

only objective manners which is I don't

agree with and there's the camp that

only subjective manners which also

doesn't agree with and I feel like with

those two there's always the uh they

think they know what the data is telling

them and I feel like they don't. Yeah.

and the data you can almost measure

anything it seems like and I'm not smart

enough to know how to measure everything

but for the most part you can really

understand what a speaker is doing

um before your ears even you know listen

to it or hear it but you have to

understand what the data is telling you

and you were the first one who

introduced me to that like there's an

onaxis and then there's the reflection

which is the offaxis and those two when

they hit you because they will

eventually hit you at the same time if

they're

that's not going to work and that's when

you're going to have those different

anomalies or hey this this uh speaker

has to be in a treated room

or it doesn't sound good at all. Right.

No, that there's a lot of truth to that.

I mean there are some speakers that

really need sidewall treatment. Yeah.

You know, because otherwise you're going

to get a very bright imbalanced speaker.

Yeah. And some people may like that, but

I don't. And if you're looking for

closer to accuracy, you want an overall

more linear speaker. And and the slope

rate of that in room response. I mean,

okay, ideally it's kind of linear,

right? But the rate at which it starts

narrowing up. Yeah. Yeah. That can

certainly be preference. Like you may

want a wider radiating speaker, you may

want a more narrow radiating speaker for

one reason or another, right? So that's

certainly preference. But it helps to

know what you're looking at.

And that's one thing too about my

reviews

is sometimes I have to kind of reset my

own reviews because I realize like now

that I've got more people watching, I

kind of need to explain to them what

this stuff is. And I've got a whole

playlist of what the data means, but

every once in a while I'll kind of step

back from that and reexplain a specific

uh attribute to a set of measurements

that I've got because it's necessary.

No, 100%. You know, it's also a good

refresher for me. That's why I'm always

watching your videos. I'm like, is Aaron

gonna throw a little nugget out there

that I didn't know? And you know, and

well, what's cool to me about this stuff

is that I'm still learning. And there

are other things where I I will kind of

get into the habit of these are the

datas that I'm presenting and then I'll

come across well like what's going on

with this speaker? Why is it doing this

thing? And so I'll dig into a little bit

more and I'll maybe do some extra tests

that I rarely ever do, you know, and

that'll kind of take me down a trail of,

you know, take the speaker apart, look

at it, try to figure out, well, okay,

maybe the baskets, maybe the cutout

isn't notched enough on the backside, so

there's some kind of resonance creating

an issue for the mid-range, right? And

just little things like that or or like

the magnet pans, we have to put them

outside and measure them. Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. I mean, well, that was for the for

the people who said you can't measure

them properly and clip them. Like, no,

yeah, you can. Let me show you. Yeah,

you can. I can show you. But yeah, it's

stuff like that. It's just it's fun. It

still is fun. It I won't I can't

complain. I really I mean I could, but

people like, "Shut up." So, I'm not

What's the point? No, dude. I think

honestly that's a great thing to hear

because I tell this constantly to

people. I'm like, when I tune your car,

I'm hoping at that point in time, I'm

gonna give you everything I got. Yeah.

In two years, if I retune it, if I can

only give you the exact same thing, I

haven't done my job. That means I'm not

learning. I'm not getting better. My

goal is every single time I go retune a

car or even my own car, I'm want to make

it better. Yeah. You know, um% man, you

know, I'm there's so much to audio,

which is why I love it, you know,

because like there's just so much to it.

It's it it can be as hard or as simple

as you want it to be, you know?

Absolutely. No, I I've said that a few

times myself. I mean, we we call some

people an audio checkbook competitors,

right? where um they get a car, they

take it somewhere and have it built and

they have somebody tune it. I've never

been one until this last car. And I was

like, I ain't got time to build this

stuff. I'm gonna call up Mike, you know,

up at Sound Factory in Knoxville and

take it to them, had them build it. And

then I had it for months and I never

tuned it. And I was like, I'm gonna give

him Gail a shout because he'd be he'd be

tuning stuff. I'll see if he wants to

come up here and help me with this,

right? So I gave you a shout. I got a

good tune out of that thing. And then

before I went to finals, I was like,

I've got to do something because I can't

just show up with a complete checkbook

tune, you know? So, I've got to do

stuff. So, then I worked on a little

bit. But it was it's it's also kind of

good for me to do those shows. And

the same in the same vein also go to

these audio shows, the home audio shows,

is because when I do the car audio shows

and the home audio shows, there may be

something that I haven't paid attention

to in a while where my own preference

has kind of gotten out of alignment with

what it was before. Yeah. And sometimes

that's fine, but other times if I get

too far out of whack, then that affects

how I'm viewing things in the data, how

I'm analyzing things subjectively when I

listen. Right. So, I went to finals with

the Tesla and yeah, got judged and the

first judge gets out and he's like, you

know, overall it was it was good.

Everything was fine, but he's just got a

little bit too much bass. I'm like, oh,

okay. Well, I like a little bit too much

bass. So, that's Yeah. Yeah. That was

like the first thing I noticed when I

hopped in. I was like, dude, did you

turn up the midbase? And you're like,

yeah, I had fun. I was like, "Okay." I

was like, "I don't remember it being

this way." Normally what I do is I boost

between like 100 to 120, right? Like

give it a little kick up. Just give me a

little bit more thump in that region.

Um, but I think it was Howard or

somebody else had gotten in there. It

could have been you who kind of said,

"Hey, yeah, everything sounds good, but

that bass bit hot." So I went listen to

a couple other competitors cars. I

listened to your car, I remember, and I

was like, "Oh, yeah, yeah, okay. I've

gotten too far. Let me go." So, I went

over there, brought like 40, 50 Hz down

a little bit and kind of smoothed out

that that lower bass region. Yeah. And

I'm like, "Oh, yeah. This does sound

better." And then I got other judges in

and they were like, "Yeah, yeah, this is

all good." And I was like, "All right,

cool." So, every once in a while, you

got to recalibrate yourself. That's

where headphones would be useful to come

in because you're not having to worry

about what's what else is going on in

the stereo is what the room why is the

room doing this? Yeah. No, dude. 100%.

And yeah, anyone, especially the car

audio community, I mean, people spent

because these these headphones are only

1,500 bucks. They're not expensive. I

mean, okay, in the relative we just

talked about 30 or $60,000 blades. Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. These are how good

they sound. No, I hear you. Um, and

certainly for some of the car audio and

home auto community, they got money to

burn. Yeah. Um, but yeah, maybe you

should uh look into alternates that you

could recommend on future episodes. You

know, say, "Hey, there's these $200 ones

that are pretty good." Because I used to

had this deal with German Maestro. I

don't know if they still do, but Travis,

maybe if he winds up watching this, he

could answer it in the comments. Uh,

they used to have some German Maestro

headphones that they said they tuned or

not tuned by, they judged by. That was

their reference. So, interesting. The

majority of the people, this is like

2015 when I first bought those. Yeah,

the majority of the people who were

competing in IASA also had those

headphones. And the deal was that if you

use these headphones as your reference

to help you tune your car stereo, then

you should do well at least in the total

portion of of car audio in the judging.

So, you know, I think it would be

helpful if if there was some sort of

streamlined reference. Yeah. But you

can't do it for home audio, right? I

mean, no. Yeah. Let me back that up. For

car audio, you can't have a reference

home audio system because the room is

always going to change below, you know,

three, four, 500, 600 hertz or whatever.

U, but you can at least have headphones

as a recommendation and you can say,

"Hey, these are 200 bucks. If you're

really serious about trying to do well,

you know, and you want the extra leg up,

yeah, check these out." Right.

personally. And the reason why I'm I

hear what you're saying, but I think I'm

gonna still settle for just get these

focals. Dude, I've

I have tried so many so many. If you've

got the money, I think that's Let me put

it this

way. Finals alone, I spent $2500 to

attend those. Yeah. Two days. Yeah.

people in the car audio

community. My Bra ML10 front sub was

1,500 bucks and that's for one speaker

in my car. And I know there's a lot of

other people out there that have Acutens

and Micro Precision this and AB this and

blah blah blah blah. Keep going. $5,000

Kimber cables because hey, whatever,

right? Yeah. I personally think if

you're serious about audio and really

want to know like, hey, like how far can

I push my car? Like is my car right or

wrong? I think a $1,500 investment that

can easily train your ears and you can

know what's right or wrong. I mean, most

people have dabs anyway because for some

reason it was a DAP craze. So, perfect.

You don't even have to buy anything

extra. Just buy the headphone, right?

And you have a great, you know, I I

mean, I can't even think of I know there

are some Sennheisers out there that are

pretty decent. Um, but I know like the

Bowers and the Bowers and Wilkins, I

don't remember. I remember the name. Are

they actually any good? I mean, no,

they're terrible. Like, their heads I

don't know that thing good. Okay. Yeah,

they were. So, I mean, it it wasn't even

funny how bad they were. I think that

there's a a fair amount of more budget

friendly like M. That seems to be 100%.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That seems to be

So, I think that

All right. So, let's back this up. Yeah.

in the at finals, I

noticed

that the vast majority of the cars that

were there had a lot of money into them.

A lot of money into them. Yeah. Um but

man, when I started, dude, I was still

in college. I was working two part-time

jobs, you know, kind of scraping by. And

any money that I made, I I remember when

$80 on a pair of Seos midwiffers was a

huge deal, right? Really? Yeah. And that

was when I first started competing. I

mean, I think my first competition was

with uh Tang Band three or 4 inch

drivers and some cheap little 3/4 inch

dome tweeters. And I don't even remember

what the midbase drivers were, but they

were something, right? And then I

remember stepping up to some seas excel

seos nexttail then eventually some scans

speak and then you know going up from

there and then kind of coming back down

sometimes too. But I would just

encourage you as a friend to maybe hey

these are the golden reference but these

other $200 ones if you're if you're kind

of in the budget range and you could

swing it check these out too. And I I

think that that brings in a little bit

more affordability to these guys who

don't, you know, because you got to

start somewhere. You of course not many

But that's the weird thing too is and I

would lean on you to tell me. Yeah.

Because my observation is just from what

I saw. Okay. When I first start when I

first started into sound quality car

audio competition, the DIY community was

huge. like everybody I would say that

and this is just kind of an anecdotal

number but I would say that 75% of the

people who were active on the forums and

active at shows were DIY people. Okay.

And 25% obviously then were like shop

people and people who were professionals

or whatever. Now, as time went on, it

was that divide started growing and it

and it kind of it became more and more

shop owners and and I don't know what

the number is now, but it looks like

there's people that have more disposable

income to spend on car audio. Yeah, at

least in

[Music]

the sound quality community and just

cause that from what I've noticed and

maybe because of my price range, I've

kind of alienated some of the, you know,

people that can't afford um my my

services. But even just in general, like

going to shows or whatnot, well, I've

seen most people, they don't even build

their own stuff anymore. Yeah. Um, and

it's it's always, oh, this shop did that

or this shop did this or this person

tuned it and then I had this person tune

it and this person tune it and you just

keep on seeing dollar signs. Um, and

then there is the I think a lot of that

has to do with the internet if I'm being

honest honest with you with like social

media. Um, everyone can now share their

opinion on the internet. Funny enough,

we're doing the same thing right now.

But like and especially like you know I

remember seeing when the distortion

uh factory group came out on Facebook

and they started measuring like the

Zapos and they're like instantly they're

like yeah these apps go suck. Oh yeah.

And like the Moscone Pros on like a

crazy amount of like distortion to them

and whatnot. And then like you just saw

people like jumping off of them like all

of a sudden it was like an influx of

like Zapos for sale

and Yeah. you know, and it was just one

of those things where I feel like

because of social media, people want to

show off more. Yeah. And they don't mind

spending the money. And I mean, Resin

Next is another brand that I know has

kind of and and myself, but I'll first

talk about Resin, like before Nick

started that, spending it like a crazy

amount of money on sound denning was

like taboo. Like no, you're just going

to use a little bit of clay, a little

bit of Dynamat, call it a day. Yeah. And

now he has a package of

$8,000 for two sound dead in your car.

And guess what? I know people that are

going to buy it. Yeah. I have two

customers lined up right now because

they want their car to be that good.

Yeah. There you go. And now, you know,

you tell someone, "Hey, spend a grand on

sound dending." Someone's like, "Oh,

that's it. Oh, that's great." Oh, yeah.

Yeah. You know, and I know like when I

first started Waveform and I put 1250,

people were like, "Wow, that's a lot of

money." You know, and I talked to some

friends beforehand. I was thinking I was

like I have to travel call so I don't

make it much. Like I I can't be in the

negative all the time, right? Um and

that's what my prices is. But nowadays,

dude, honestly, I I actually had one

dude I'm actually going to tune

tomorrow. I wasn't supposed to, but he

wanted me out there like next day. And I

I named the price, you know, just the

the the amount. And he was like, "Oh,

that's it." I was like, you were like,

"I should have asked for more." And I

was like, "Okay." you know, and it's

just like I think there's

a once other people start doing it, then

it just starts become the norm, if you

will. Maybe just inflation starts

coming. That's how inflation starts.

Yeah. You know, but I mean, I think the

new Supreo line supposed to be well into

the thousands from Morell, like well

into it. Yeah. And it's like, are you

really noticing that big of a difference

between the Elite Carbon Pro and that

new Supreo line? Maybe. I don't know.

But it's like I've I have heard many

people like, "Oh, I can't wait to get

them." And I've heard it's like well

above 5,000 for this for this three-way.

I'm like, "Yeah, that's

um yeah, it's just like it's it's

interesting to me. I wonder why that

is." I mean, like you're saying, you

think it has something to do with social

media. Um I'm just surprised that that

number of people can afford that. But

yeah, you know, and I also kind of

wonder if if the death because Okay, so

DIY mobile audio was social media. Yeah.

And that was before like Facebook really

took off and and DIY mobile audio stayed

around for I mean it's still there,

right? But yeah, I mean around like

2012, 2013, 14 it really started dying

off and I was like a moderator there for

a while so I definitely know. Yeah. Um,

but even up until that point, you know,

a lot of people were still trying to go

the budget route. So, it's just it's

interesting to me because I've been on

the outside of car audio for the last

five, six, seven years. Yeah. I mean,

I'm still doing it, but I'm on the

outside of it, right? So, it's

interesting to me when I go to these

shows and everybody's running big rig

systems and I'm like, damn, it wasn't

like this, you know, 10 years ago. It

was a lot of people with more budget

friendly systems. And even back then,

people were bragging more on look how

little I spent. I tuned it myself. I

built everything myself. And I was like

that for the longest time. Like I was

really proud of the really shitty work

that I was doing. I remember showing up

to finals in 2010 after I had built new

A-pillars. Yeah. And I had Steve Cook

come over. And Steve had only been

competing for like maybe a year. I don't

even know if he started competing yet,

but I knew who Steve was because he was

around at local events. So I had him

come over and look at it. And he goes,

"Oh, you got to bring this by the shop."

Like, it was so bad. He was just

disappointed in me. And I was like, "Oh,

man." Did question. Did Did Cook have

that monotone face and voice that he

always does like, "Bring it to the

shop." Yeah. Yeah. If anyone knows Cook,

he has like no expression until like a

random smile he'll throw out. To this

day, and I hope they watch this and I

hope they hear me see this. To this day,

I pride myself on making two people

laugh and smile. It would be Mick

Wallace and Steve Cook. If I can make

either one of them like laugh and smile,

then I'm like, "Oh god, I'm good." Like,

I'm good for a month. Dude, Nick is

hilarious. Mick, he's so dry. He's so

dry. But if you pay attention to what

he's saying, like that's one funny dude.

Yeah. Very, very dead pan. Yeah. Yeah.

No, Mick is good. He's a good guy,

though. Um, at finals, I actually got a

hug from Cook and he said he was proud

of me. I was like, man. Yeah, that's

awesome, man. No, it it was cool. Like

Cook is great people. And same thing

with Kevin Keane and all of those guys.

Yeah, man. There's so many just so good

people. That's what I try to I tried.

Okay, so around like 2007 through about

2011, I would have one or two

gettogethers at my house every year. Oh,

that's cool. And you know, went from

having like 10 people to as many as 40

people. And then my daughter was getting

a little bit older and I was like, I

don't know about having all these random

people over my house. Maybe we won't do

this anymore. And then Jason Bartholomew

had started having his gettogethers in

North Carolina, maybe a little bit

before that, but you know, that was when

I started going to those. And I man, I

miss going to those.

If there's any event that I could go to

in the year, it would be Jason's Meet.

Honest to goodness, man, I miss going to

those. The camaraderie in Car audio is

like nothing I've ever experienced

before. It's fantastic. Um, but how much

you going to try to make it to that

show? I can't, man. I'm taking my

daughter to um these these YouTube kids

are doing. It's so weird. There's these

like kids on YouTube who she's going to

go see and I bought her tickets to go

see those kids in Nashville. But I'm

just like taking you see YouTube people.

I'm like well I don't know. I got a

YouTube channel and people watching so I

guess I can't judge. But anyway, long

story short is I miss having that

camaraderie from car audio and I'm

trying to do that home audio. So, I I

teamed up with a local shop here in

Huntsville in January, and we had like

40 people show up to it, man. It was

just it was just people coming out,

hanging out, talking, listening to some

home audio systems, and we're already

plan on doing it in the middle of June,

I think. I got to get the date settled.

So, hopefully it'll be like a a twice a

year kind of thing, dude. That'd be

sick. Yeah, that'd be awesome. Yeah, I

love those Dimma meets. I was exposed

last year to it in February of the one

in Virginia. Oh, yeah. Ian. And uh it

actually wasn't Ian's, it was it was in

February. I think Ian's was later. Um

and it was the very first time. And I

just had the most fun ever because there

were no judges. There was there was none

of this like, "Oh, well, did you hear

this one triangle that's like 2 in from

the singer that their head they

scratched this certain way? Do you not

hear that in that recording?" I'm like,

"Nope, I don't. Shut up. I don't care."

Just how does your car sound? Like does

it sound good? It was just like a whole

bunch of people having fun. And me and

Mike Myers were there. Mhm. And him and

I just looked at each other like, "We're

going to help people." And we did. We

just took our laptops out and just

started like helping everyone around.

And everyone was like, "Oh, dude, thanks

so much for like making my car better."

I was like, "Yeah, how much I owe you?"

I'm like, "Nothing." Like I didn't do

much. I was just making small little

tweaks that I know could help you out.

That was like very apparent to me. It

took me half a second. And it was just

fun. Like me and Mike just like going

back and forth and just doing that. It

was just It was just a lot of fun. I I

missed that aspect of being able to sit

in the passenger seat with somebody in

their own car. Yeah. And with my laptop,

you know, like say, "Okay, this is a

thing that I heard when I was listening.

I want you to listen for this specific

thing. Do you hear that?" Of course,

you're guiding them into hearing it. But

when they're new, they don't know what

to listen for. Right. So, you're walk,

okay, let me time delay this thing. Do

you hear those changes? Can you can you

kind of see quote unquote the stage

moving across? Yeah. Um, does does the

vocal get fuller as I do this this

sweep, you know, and and make these

changes in real time and help people

learn? Like that's one of the things

that I miss the most about going to

those meets is meeting new people,

helping them out, helping them

understand. I remember Gerald showed up

meet Yeah. He showed up to Jason meet

that big old van thing. I think this is

like around 2015 or so. Yeah. Yeah. And

he was asking for some feedback and I

was like, "Yeah, stuff doesn't sound

right, man." And uh I said, "You got

time alignment in this thing?" And he

was like, "Yeah, it was on an old Alpine

deck, like a

983 or 33 or something." Anyway, so I

was like, "Cool. I remember how to use

this thing." So I started making

adjustments and he would sat back in the

seat and he's like, "Oh my gosh." Yeah.

Yeah. I don't know if sound like that.

I'm like, "Dude, this is time delay."

Like now here you go. This is how There

you go, Gerald. Yeah. I remember when I

tuned Gerald's van, he said he was like

he's like almost started crying. He's

like, "I didn't know it could be this

good." And I was like, "Yeah, dude." It

was just it was Gerald's a hoot. If

anyone hasn't met Gerald, I love Gerald.

He's so funny. Did you wind up telling

them like, "Yeah, dude." And you'd have

to pay $5,000 for cables that were

different lengths. Don't get me started

with cables and Gerald. Don't get me

started. Gerald is great. I I I love

Gerald. His cable obsession is insane. I

think he is salt of the earth. He's a

really good dude. He says the most

insane stuff. He'll reply to my videos

sometimes and I'm like I if I didn't

know that it was Gerald, I would just be

like, "This guy's insane." But I know

it's Gerald and I'm like, "All right."

Like, I'm I'm listening. Like, you got

my attention. I'm gonna pay attention to

you. Gerald, I love you. You are insane.

But I love you for it. But to recap,

any any speaker that just out there for

home audio does not mean it's a good

speaker and does not mean it's a good

reference. Maybe using a high quality

pair of headphones might be a better

reference because it eliminates the room

and you get to A and B something in a

much quicker form. And also it's it's

portable. You can take it with you,

right? For sure. Um, the last question I

have for you and then I will do my

homework on this so I can recommend it.

What's a good budget spare, excuse me,

budget pair of speakers that you can

recommend, okay, that people can just

set up maybe on their desk or whatever

that can be good. Oh, hold on.

Yeah, I know they're there. Ah, okay.

This this little Atom. I just got

through testing these. They're 299

bucks. Desktop speakers. And yeah, this

is the main one. So, they've got all

sorts of little switches. I'm going to

hide my face. Okay, cool. All sorts of

little switches for desk and

freestanding and the USBC input. Uh,

like I said, $2.99 a pair and they're

really small. I've also got a pair I've

got two pair sitting on my desk uh

because I got two different computers.

One is for my editing and one is for my

all my data analysis. Uh, but I use the

Cali Audio

KI. Uh, it's the LP hyphen UNF. Okay.

And they're $299 a pair. They're a

little bit bigger. The difference really

is that the Cali has a little bit more

SPL capability than this guy. Uh, I

think maybe there's a little bit Oh,

this one's actually a little bit more

linear. So, for a desktop setup that's

affordable and won't take up a lot of

space, these. And you don't need them to

get really loud. Like these get down

flat to 50 Hz. Flat. flat down to 50 Hz

and they're a great option if you're

talking for home

audio. Um, it's been a little while

since I've kind of looked, so I would I

would have to probably look again. Pulk

Audio makes a budget friendly speaker.

It's the

XT20. It has fantastic directivity. I

think it's a little bit bright on the

top end that you may want to kind of

make some adjustments for uh maybe by

towing out a little bit more, facing

away from you. But that's a really good

speaker. And if you have EQ and you want

to go back, I've got a video on this uh

where I recommend it and I show people

how to set it up, what EQ bands to use.

If you want to watch that, you can. I

think they're maybe like 250, 299 a

pair. They may be a little bit cheaper

here and there depending on when they go

on sale. And then that paired up with

something like the Whim

WIM Amp Pro, which is has like all this

stuff built into it. It's a it's a

combined streamer and amplifier in one.

HDMI input, HDMI ARC on it. Plug it in

your TV. You got enough power for a

little pair of bookshelf speakers. There

you go. You know, and then if you want

to add a sub, that's added

complications. As we know, car audio

doesn't make any phase matters in the

home, too. Yeah. And it matters in the

home, too. So, but yeah, I honestly

think that I would say for if if you

have a computer, just buy something like

these and call it a day. If you want

lower bass extension, then you're gonna

have to pay more money out of a pair of

speakers. That's just the ones that come

to mind for me, and I can't remember the

price or the actual name, but they were

Elax. Yeah. And Andrew Jones made them.

And they they were mid tier. They were

they weren't crazy expensive, and I

can't remember the name of them. Saved

my life. Um,

so let me think here. The Are they the

Oh my god. I know.

UBR62. I I think so. I think that's

their I think they're like 1,200 bucks.

But there's that's the concentric one,

right? But then there's another one

that's a step down from that that I

recommend often. It's the DBR62. And

that's a bookshelf speaker. And that's a

good bookshelf speaker. A little bit

little bit bright on the top end. Yeah.

But that's a good bookshelf speaker. Um

Yeah. There's a lot of different

options. You know, when you're talking

budget, it I'm like, well, what is

budget? Right. Yeah. Of course. Some

people budget is 200 bucks and other

people budget is 10,000. Yeah. Yeah. No,

of course. I've got some dude out in

Beverly Hills that's been sending me

speakers and it's just like, "Yeah, I'm

gonna send you this $10,000 speaker."

I'm like, "Oh, okay, cool." Like, I'll

review. I got no problem doing that. I

got it. Yeah. Yeah. To me, budget is, at

least for speakers, anything below like

800 bucks and I can just like throw in

and it sounds great. I'm cool spending

800 bucks, no problem at all. Um,

without even like crying. It's just like

cool, these work. I'm happy. And if

they're not perfect, I'm not going to

like cry about them. Like they were just

800 bucks. No big deal. I hear you.

Just, you know, you're getting the

driver, the enclosure, the R&D. You're

getting so much, you know, and you got

to think about how much work went into

even this cheaper speaker. So, finding a

$200 one that's still giving you all of

that and place that 250, it's pretty

Yeah. Yeah. I mean, $299 a pair is is

really good for those. I mean, and then

if you stay want if you still want to

stay in the

um computer audio or powered speed

because you know realistically you don't

have to use these for computer audio as

long as you got a source that has RCA

XLR etc out. You just buy the right

converter cables for these. Yeah, you

could always use power cable powered

speakers. But the Cali

L in 8 V2 is 8 inch but it's a then they

have a 4 inch or so coaxial above that.

That's a fantastic speaker. the IN5 V2

also a fantastic speaker and Miguel I

would tell you this. Yeah. Um if you're

going to be providing recommendations to

people. Yeah. Set you up an Amazon

affiliate account because it doesn't

make you a shield if it's stuff you

actually use and recommend and then you

can say hey and if you're interested in

trying this out, click the affiliate

link. It earns me 3 to 4% on any sale

and you know it doesn't make a lot of

money, dude, but it'll help offset some

of this stuff over time. So do that.

That's my advice to you is to do that.

And if anybody's got a problem with it,

tell them to piss off. Thanks, Aaron.

You know me and anyone who knows me that

has had a tune for me, I don't care

about the money. No, I hear you. I just

love this stuff. I hear you, dude. I

mean, this has been my life for the last

five or six years and even well before

that. So, it's never really been about

the money, but I've learned that when

you're good at something, people are

like cool with helping you out. So, when

I provide those links, you know, if it's

something I really care about, then

yeah, sure. Don't go buy that thing and

use that link. Lately, I just use

generic links. I'm like, I don't Doesn't

matter what it is. If you need to get

toilet paper from Amazon or you want to

get a television from Crutchfield, but

link. Yeah. Yeah. No, thanks, dude. I

appreciate it. Anything else you want to

leave the viewers or listeners about

references? Um, you know, I I I'll kind

of recap by saying that I think the

recommendation for headphones is a

really good one. I'm glad you asked

about speakers for references because

these ones I just pointed at for desk

speakers or maybe a smaller room, you

can sit right in front of them and

eliminate the room and then you've got

them and they stage and do all that

stuff. That that's a really good option

to have. Outside of that, I would just

say don't stop learning. Yeah. Uh, also

be careful what you read on the internet

because everybody's an expert. Probably

only trust people whose stereos that

you've heard. And that goes for me, you

know, if you haven't heard my stereo,

maybe take me with a grain of salt.

Um, it's just tough, man. And then also

do not play the game of trying to keep

up with the next guy because you're

never going to win. You're never Don't

keep up with the Joneses. Yeah. No,

you're never going to win. Not only like

in terms of just commercial wins and

things like that, you know, or winning

in a judge's score sheet. You're never

going to win from within, right? Like

not to get sappy, but there's a lot of

truth in that. And you're not going to

feel complete. Do what makes you happy

because this is a hobby after all for

the majority of us. This isn't something

we make a living at. This is not my day

job. This is not Miguel's day job. We we

love this. I was going to cuss. We

really love this stuff. We're very

passionate about it. And we still got to

have fun with it. So, if you're a

hobbyist and you're trying to enjoy the

hobby, enjoy it. Yeah. Take the time to

try to learn. Reach out. Ask people. Go

to shows. Go to events. Ask questions.

Ask people for feedback on your own

system and try to learn. But yeah,

number one, don't be afraid to ask

questions when you go to these shows.

True. People love to help out, man.

Yeah. Or not help out. It depends on if

they're saying is true or not true, but

you at least get some information. You

get some information. Yeah, I agree. I

think the No, go ahead. I'm sorry. Kind

of going back to the reference thing too

for from the perspective of home audio

because I never really used headphones

as a reference until I I as Yeah. Um

because I just don't like the way they

don't stage well, right?

I like a speaker out in front of me. I

don't like it from within. That's a me

thing. Okay.

What I tend to find is that the more

experience you can get with different

speakers, at some point you'll kind of

lock into a sound that does make sense

as a reference. And and if you only hear

crappy speakers, unfortunately, that's

probably going to wind up being what you

think is a reference. But if you listen

to enough good ones, at some point

you'll have a better feel for, you know,

what a what a good system sounds like.

Trust the data. Ask questions about the

data if it's available. And again, ask

don't be afraid to ask people at these

shows because getting hands-on time is

really helpful. You'll learn so much

more than reading tons of information on

the internet. No, 100%. And you know,

the last thing I'm going to leave to the

viewers and listeners is at the end of

the day, this is supposed to be fun. And

competition is not always fun because

it's you you start doing the competition

thing where it's like, oh, I have to

win. I have to win. And you forget to

just enjoy the thing that you've built

for yourself. Don't build a vehicle for

competition. Just build it for yourself.

And if your car is good, it will also do

well in competition. That's the way it

should be. But don't just build it like,

oh, well, like I was I have to build

this car for I ask an amateur and I it

cannot deviate from that. And I tell

people constantly, my car, I built it

for me. When it was getting built, not a

single moment did I ever look up any of

the orgs or nothing. Like I do not care.

And then when my very first show, people

like what? You know, I think people

forget I'm a new competitor. I haven't

been doing this a long time. Very very

short. Like 2023 was my first like

official like season. And I started that

in August. Mh.

Um. Yeah. They were like, "So, what what

class you in?" And I'm like, "I have no

clue. You going to have to tell me. I

have no clue what class." And they're

like, "What you have?" I'm like, "This

is what I have." They're like, "You're

in I I was in ML. They were like,

"You're ex limited." I'm like, "Don't

even know what that means." They were

like, "Second highest class. Cool. put

me in there. I don't care. Like I I

built it for me. Um and the last thing

expensive equipment does not mean better

sound. Yeah. And I learned that very

quickly when I started learning about

home audio, which is like, hey, like

these really good sounding speakers are

using very cheap drivers. Um, and

they're putting a lot of effort into the

crossover and make sure things are in

phase with each other and the radiation

makes sense and um, tonality and hey,

when you knock on this speaker, it's

dead. And that's how I started realizing

like, oh, that's why I need to make my

car. My car is becoming resonance. I

need to make it as dead as possible in

terms of, you know, sound deadening. Um,

so yeah, that's what I'll leave with the

viewers. I agree. design mean better.

I'm going to jump in with you on those

two and keep this going just a little

bit longer. 100% uh build the car that

you want to the way that you want to

build it for what your needs are. Yeah.

And then just see where you land. When I

started competing, I had no idea what I

needed to do. I built it because I knew

I wanted to do X, Y, or Z. And then like

you, I went to a show and they said,

"All right, this is class you're in." I

said, "Okay." And it was like second

from the top. I think it was extreme for

Mecca was the first class. Yeah. So I

and then I never went down. I stayed in

mecha extreme after that even though I

built new builds and all that stuff and

I could have stepped down to lower

classes. I was like

why you know so but then also yes more

money absolutely does not guarantee

better results. Nope. And a lot I'm

going to leave with one very last thing.

Okay, which is if you get a good

reference and you understand what things

are supposed to sound like, then another

person, that being a judge or a friend

or a pal, can't tell you, "Hey, you need

to fix this and this." You already know

how how your car sounds like. You know

what a reference is. So that's why a lot

of times when people are like, "Oh, well

this judge said this and this." I'm

like, "Okay, well what do you think?"

And they're like, "Well, I don't agree."

Okay. Then then like why you why you

listen to someone else? Like if it's

easier to be better at competition.

We're talking about competition. Yeah.

Yeah. It's you you'll be a better

competitor to know what that should have

sounded like. And there have been

moments when I've actually been able to,

for a lack of better words, educate a

judge and be like, "Hey dude, no,

actually it's not supposed to sound like

that." Um, and I luckily I have my

headphones with me and I'm like, "Put

these on." And they're like, "Oh." And

like they actually thank me like,

"Thanks, dude." Like I didn't know. I

was like, "You're good." you know, and

and it's cool because everyone can

learn, you know, and every day I'm

asking people questions. I've Dude, how

many times have I hit you up on

Messenger recently? Hey, dude, like I

don't understand this. And you'll be

like, oh yeah, I don't get it either.

The last one was like my like last one

was like my midbase. I'm like, dude,

there's something going on. I don't

You're like, I have no clue. I'm like,

cool. Me either. I just wanted to know.

Just make sure I'm saying. Yeah. Yeah.

Just make sure I'm cool. But yeah. Yeah.

Well, I have uh one of I don't want to

mention his name here, but somebody we

know very well. He every once in a while

he'll message messages me with some

graphs from REW and he'll say, "Hey,

what do you think about this?" And I'm

like, "Well, this region looks a little

bit odd. You may want to check." Okay.

Yeah. I'll go out to my car at lunch. Uh

he knows who he is, too. But like,

that's cool. And then sometimes I'm like

I'll just be like, "Dude, how's it

sound?" Because it looks all right to

me. He's like, "Yeah, it sounds all

right." I'm like, "Yeah, I wouldn't

touch it then." Yeah, 100%. And like Oh,

yeah. You uh Oh, sorry. Go ahead. No,

no, go, please. Uh, one one idea in the

future might just be a

um like a telling stories of how many

times we've done something wrong because

somebody told us to do it this way like

or I still remember Steve McIntyre and

and he was a competitor a while back and

he was telling us one weekend that he

went to a show on Saturday and got some

feedback and then went to a show the

next day because this was on a Sunday up

in um Murphers. Bro, Tennessee at the at

the Vinnie, I think it was. And same

judge, same car, no difference in the

tune. Gave him five five point different

score. Wow. And he was just like, "Dude,

I don't know." And he said like the

judge got out and like, "Well, this

thing needs" and he's like, "I didn't

change anything, you know, like." So, it

happens. Yeah. There you go, man. Power

of persuasion. I guess I Where are we

at? Minute an hour 40. Let's just keep

it going. We're just talking. Yeah.

Don't change. If you're in competition,

you're trying to learn and get better.

Please do not change the tune during the

show. Oh, no. You're not getting any

valuable feedback because you're

changing it. And then you're like, "Oh."

And then I I love when people complain

about it on like, "No, these judges were

correct." Like, "They're all wrong." I

was like, "Did you change the tune?"

Like, "Well, yeah, cuz this one you

said." I'm like, "There you go, dude.

You can't help yourself." Yeah. To get

better if you're constantly just

changing it middle of the show. Like,

stop doing that. Just agree. I agree.

It's tough, man, because

when you tune

yourself, you you probably doubt

yourself a lot, too. Especially at when

you're new to it, you're doubting

yourself constantly. Oh, well, you know,

what am I going to get? So, the judge

gets out at a big show and he says X, Y,

or Z, and you're like, "Oh, I'm gonna go

make those changes." Well, what if the

other judge didn't feel that way? And

then, like, you don't know what to do,

right? So, you just lost. I think I

think what you have to do when you start

out is you just have to kind of expect

to take the lumps. Go into it with them

with the factor of already knowing that

judges can be inconsistent. As as much

as it's tried

to be objective over the what like

decades at this point, it's still

subjective. Like these score sheets have

place markers and things like that for

stage width and depth and these things,

but it still is subjective. I mean, the

easiest way to talk about it is you get

into a car at 8 a.m. and you got all day

to judge. Like, you're judging all day.

You got 20, 30 different cars. By the

time 3:00 rolls around, your ears are

shot and you have to maybe maybe you

take the time to go get a a re-reference

in a stereo system somewhere or

headphones or something like that, but

you can guarantee that the score that

you gave at 3 p.m. is going to be

different than the score you would give

at 8 a.m. Like, that's just a human

factor. Okay. And and good or bad. Good

or bad. Yeah, the score is going to

change, right? I mean, a quarter point

here, a whole point here, whatever, it's

going to be different. You could roll

the dice and and get get different

results because there is some subjective

analysis to it. Um, so if you if you

don't allow yourself the learning

opportunity for some period of time,

maybe like your first six months or so,

I whatever is reasonable to the person I

guess listening, then you're not going

to learn. And you need to get as much

feedback as you can. And if you really

want to be a true competitor in the

sense of I want to do well on a judge a

score sheet, then you're gonna have to

go about it with a different mindset.

Like yeah, I never went after that and

I'm I'm not I had no problem with those

who really want to go out with the

competitive mindset, but I always just

went to shows and was like, we'll see

how it does. I like it, you know, and if

I would get feedback that would help me

improve it that I that I thought was

useful, I would make those changes.

Yeah. But if you really want to be a

judge or you really want to get scored

well, you got to play the game. And and

that goes back into telling a judge that

you made a change or yeah, potentially,

you know, putting a booster seat for a

certain judge. Um maybe a different tune

for a different judge if you've been

doing it long enough to know. But those

are things that you try to do later.

Your initial phase is data gathering,

right? getting all this information from

all these different sources and you're

saying all right well 80% of the people

are saying this thing so that's what I'm

going to do and the other stuff I'm not

going to worry about just ignore it

until you get more judges you get more

judges right and it's a fine tuning

process hear me out here crazy thought

or you have a good reference and you

know so then you could just reference

then you just tell everybody like hey

you know it's all but at least you know

then right and then you can maybe you go

oh maybe my reference isn't what it

needs to be. Yeah. Yeah. You know, or

maybe like, hey, what is your reference?

It'll be like XYZ, and you're like, oh,

is that better or worse? And there's

data on the internet that you can figure

out like, hey, was my reference not good

or blah blah blah. You know, and the

other thing is, and I I know you know

this just as well as I do because of our

backgrounds.

Biases exist unconsciously. Oh, yeah.

And because of that, no human human

point blank can have just an objective

get in the car and have zero bias. It's

just impossible. They might see this one

thing and unconscious is going to be a

bias. Like, oh, like for me, if I see a

mid-range and a pillar, I already

automatically have a bias against it.

Even though I try to be objective, I'm

like, oh, like the image is not going to

be the way I want it because I'm having

all these different different

reflections. Yeah. Is what it is. I know

it's true, you know, and that's why I I

I don't say I won't ever be a judge, but

like people have asked me, I'm like,

"No, I rather Yeah. You know, being a

judge is hard. Oh, dude. so hard. It's

super stressful, too. Like the guys that

do it at these big shows. I've never

done a big show. I've always done like

the local shows, but man, the guys who

do it at the big shows. Props to those

guys. I don't know. And then they had to

deal with the people like us who are

complaining about their their

assessments, you know, and their judge

sheet. So, dude, for the most part, I

try not to complain. I'm just like

whatever. Especially during it, dude.

I've seen people like get mad at Bro,

chill out, dude. It's just two channel

audio. Yeah. No, that's not the time to

do it. I get that some people have stuff

on the line like shop people who have

shops, they have something on the line

for it. Yeah. But, you know, if you're a

if you're a hobbyist and you're trying

to do this from the perspective of like

just hanging out, having fun, improving

your stereo, it shouldn't it shouldn't

be that serious because at the end of

the day, you know, here's what I

remember looking back on all the years I

went to finals and everything. Yeah, the

stuff I remember uh that stands out are

after the after the event hanging out

with my friends, talking, saying our

goodbyes. But as far as like who got

what the stuff that I remember are the

people who bitched that straight up,

dude. I can I as soon as I start talking

about that, there's at least there's two

very specific instances where I remember

a team acting very bad. Um Clifton might

know what I'm talking about. acting very

bad at a couple finals and it was like,

yo. Um, so yeah, that's probably what

you'll be remembered for. So, don't do

that. Yeah, don't be that person. Yeah,

don't be that person. It's fine. It's

We're It's It's two channel audio and

that in a car. Yeah, it's fine, guys.

It's fine. It's just music at the end of

the day. It's supposed to be fun. It'll

always be fun. Definitely be stressful,

but you know, talking about objective uh

or subjective bias just from seeing the

cars. I mean, I went

through, man, that's probably 15

different builds in a car that was 13

years old. And sometimes I would hide

the speakers just because when I got in

my own car, if I saw the speakers, there

was something about the sound stage that

I was already expecting to hear. Yeah.

So, I, you know, and then when I hit

them, it was like seeing the speakers,

the sound stage is where the speakers

are. when I don't see the speakers.

Boom. Your your imagination can just go

wild. Yeah, for sure. No, dude. I I I

agree completely with you. Maybe we'll

have another podcast talking about that,

but I think worth it. Yeah, I think for

now I don't have anything else. Me

either, man. I'm gonna go get some

cookies and some chocolate milk. Nice.

Thank you for being our first guest on

Way for Yeah, dude. I'm happy to do it,

man. Dude, I appreciate it. You've been

a long long friend of mine. I was like,

who's the first person I want on here?

And I thought about I thought about

Clifton, but I don't like him that much,

you know? I was like, I don't like him.

I was like, Aaron has to be the man.

Also, big shout out to Clifton. Thanks,

dude, for doing this because I don't

know how to do it. He was like, I'll

take care of it, dude. You just Oh,

that's awesome. You You and Aaron just

hang out. So, thanks, Clifton, for doing

the background. I will learn myself here

shortly on how to do this, but thank you

ahead of time. Are you still there,

Clifton? Let me see. He's still here.

Hey. Hey, dude. Thank you. We love you

Clifton. Love you. Much love, dude.

Aaron, thanks, dude. Yeah. Catch you

guys later. Yes, sir. Don't go any Don't

go anywhere. Got stay where you are.

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YouTube Transcript:WaveForm Unhinged: Episode 1: Erin & I Spill the Truth About References – Not All of Them Are Good!

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WaveForm Unhinged: Episode 1: Erin & I Spill the Truth About References – Not All of Them Are Good!