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Top Psychologist, Donald Hoffman: Seeing True Reality Would Kill Us! I Can Prove It To You!

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The world that you're seeing isn't the

true world. All of this that I'm seeing

right now is just a virtual reality.

It's like you're born with a headset on

playing a video game. That's your

reality. But if you're the programmer

who wrote the code for the game, you

know that there's an entire world

outside of it. And as the programmer,

you can do miracles.

And do you think we're getting closer to

being able to edit the code?

That's exactly what I'm working on right

now. And we're opening up a realm of new

technologies that are far more powerful

than anything we've seen before. Like

time travel. And nuclear bombs will be

like firecrackers. and will people suffer?

suffer?

So, it's like Pandora's box. There's all

sorts of nasty surprises, but they also

could be miraculous. But either way,

just in the last few months, it started

to crack open.

So, let's talk about that.

Okay, so Professor Donald Hoffman is the

cognitive scientist pushing the

boundaries of how we perceive reality

and how we can unlock our full potential

as human beings.

According to Darwin's theory, our

sensory systems, eyes, ears, smell,

touch, are not shaped to show us the

truth. They were shaped to keep you

alive long enough to reproduce

successfully because seeing the truth

takes too much time and energy. And so

whatever reality is, it's utterly unlike

anything that I perceive.

What does this all mean for the nature

of how one should understand their life?

Well, if you're stuck in a boring world,

that's a world of your own creation.

That's not the real world. And my

conscious experiences are nothing but

what my brain creates. And so we feel

inadequate and we feel like we need to

compete with other people. But you're

the inventor of this whole thing. you

have nothing to prove and there are much

more interesting perspectives that we

can take on ourselves. So if you really

knew who you are, you would see no need

to compare or compete.

And is there a way for me to understand

who I am?

If you want to understand the truth of

who you are beyond just this headset

I see messages all the time in the

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thank you so much because in a strange

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and you're on this journey with us and I

appreciate you for that. So, yeah, thank you,

Professor Donald Hoffman.

Do you think that the listeners of this

show, the people listening right now,

understand the nature of reality and the

world that they're looking at and see?

I think that no one even the most

advanced professionals really

understands the nature of reality and

it's one of the big open problems and

questions in science today. We all might

have ideas. We might think we know

something. Our best science suggests

that our imagination is not yet big

enough. We need to explore further.

What is it that you believe is the big

sort of misconception about how we

perceive reality?

Well, most of us think of reality as

whatever is inside space and time. We

actually know that spaceime cannot be

the fundamental nature of reality.

And what is spacetime?

So everything that you see around us,

right? the the the space between you and

me. There's maybe one or two meters of

space between you and me. That's what

space spacetime is. All all the stuff

that we can see in our telescope. Put it

that way. If you can see it in your

telescope is part of spaceime. But we

know our our best theories of spaceime

Einstein's theory together with quantum

theory tell us that spaceime cannot be

the fundamental nature of reality.

There's a small if you go small. So I

can talk about a meter.

Yeah. And then I can go to you know

centimeters and then you know

millimeters and then we can go you know

micrometers and and you can go smaller

and smaller. At some point you go so

small that space disappears. It it no

longer even makes sense mathematically.

It's 10 theus 33 cm. So it's actually

not that in my view it's not that small.

It's not 10 theus 33 trillion

centimeters. It's just 10 theus 33 cm.

And all of a sudden our equations tell

us um spacetime doesn't have any

effective meaning.

Is a proxy for the word reality in some respects?

respects?

Well, for most people I think it is. For

most people they think that that

spacetime is the reality. And what I'm

saying is it's the reality that most of

us have assumed is the final reality.

And science is now telling us it can't

be. It actually and it tells us

precisely at 10 theus 33 centimeters 10

theus 43 seconds the very notion of

spaceime makes no sense.

Is that the same as saying that reality

as I perceive it makes no sense.

I'm suggesting now as a cognitive

scientist not a physicist we should

think of spaceime is just a virtual

reality headset. That's the way we

perceive in our game of life. And when

you say spaceime, you mean the the thing

that I'm perceiving with my eyes and

ears and senses right now.

That's right. Even this hard table is

just a VR

object. And the whole setting that we're

in here right now is just a virtual

reality. And there is a a reality

entirely outside this headset that that

is open to science to explore. And we're

finding stuff which you might call

obelisks, geometric objects outside of

spaceime. So, so this is all brand new

in the last since like 20 2010 or

something like that roughly.

So, do you believe that? Do you believe

that everything I'm experiencing and

seeing now is basically like equivocal

to me wearing a virtual reality headset

and that there's something beyond the

virtual reality headset

completely because I believe the science

and the predictions of our theories

about spaceime are so good. Now I I have

to always be careful about what I'm

saying versus and I don't want to put

words in the physicist's mouth. So when

I say I think it's a virtual reality,

that's Hoffman. That's not physics. Right.

Right.

Are you able to swap out the phrase

spaceime for reality or is that inaccurate?

inaccurate?

I think that whatever reality is,

There's much more to reality than

spacetime. spacetime is all the reality.

It's it's like a a player in Grand Theft

Auto. If all you've done is play in

Grand Theft and that's you were born

with a headset on and that's all you've

that that's your reality. But if you're

the programmer who wrote the code and

you know the supercomputer that's

running Grand Theft Auto, you know that

Grand Theft Auto um is a nice

self-contained world, but there's an

entire world outside of it that's

utterly unlike Grand Theft Auto. It's

it's a supercomput with diodes and

resistors and voltages that are being

toggled. And when when some dude is

turning his wheel to to drive the car,

what's really happening when he turns

the wheel is that millions of voltages

are being toggled in a specific order in

some computer. And it has to be exactly

that right sequence for the thing to

work properly. And and the guy that's

turning the wheel has no idea what's

going on. There's this other whole realm

utterly outside your imagination in

Grand Theft Auto. And so if you're in

Grand Theft Auto, you might not even

know about computers and toggling

voltages. And so all you know is I got a

steering wheel and a gas pedal and

streets and and people to race and so

forth and things to to steal and and whatever,

whatever,

but you don't realize there's a puppet

master effectively controlling you

behind the scenes. And so I I think that

spaceime is just a very effective headset.

headset.

For anyone that doesn't know, Grand

Theft Auto is a video game where you run

around a virtual world basically.

That's right. Yeah. Driving. You're

driving nice fancy cars in this in this

world. That's right.

So everything I see right now is a

projection that I've made on the world,

my world, in order to help me to

survive. And my brain is not showing me

things that it doesn't think I need to

see because they won't be conducive with

survival because they are cognitively in

terms of like um how much fuel and

energy they would require to process and

think about they are cognitively inconsequential

inconsequential

or like it would be inefficient for me

to spend my cognitive power to see those things.

things.

That's exactly right. And for a lot of

people, I think that's counterintuitive

because they would say, "Look, evolution

is about making you fit so you can live

and survive long enough to reproduce

successfully." And surely evolution

should do that by making you see the

truth. I mean, if you see the truth,

then you're going to compete in the game

of life much more successfully than if

you don't see the truth. So, so what are

you talking about this headset nonsense

for? This is not a headset. This is the

truth. I mean and evolution should shape

us to see the truth. Now I think that's

what most people would would would

assume and in fact very intelligent

experts in the field assume that and I

suggest otherwise. In fact we have

mathematical proofs otherwise. If you

look at evolution, Darwin said, "Look,

we need to think about a gradual

evolution over time of these species,

maybe from very very simple ones to more

complex ones." And what what is going to

drive that dynamics? and and Darwin

suggested it was what we would call

reproductive fitness that that those

organisms that have

physical properties, sensory systems,

motor systems, you know, movement

systems that make them more likely to

have offspring and to raise offspring to

maturity. Whatever properties those

might be, that's what we're going to

call fitness. So the more fit you are I

is really saying how likely are you to

have and successfully raise offspring.

So Darwin suggested that and I don't

think that he necessarily had to say

that there was no God. It was just that

there if there is a god it's not that

God put it down perfect. He did an

evolutionary process.

Yeah. Well organisms adapt to their

environment. Um well they're not

adapting but the offspring that survive

are those best adapted to the

environment. That's right. So that was

Darwin's idea. So the gradual evolution

from presumably simpler organisms to

more and more complic complicated

organisms and um and then multiple

evolutions of things like eyes like the

sephopod eye evolved different

differently from the human eye. Um and

the sephopod eye got certain things

right that the human eye got wrong.

Is that because the sephopod eye was in

a different environment? So it had

different requirements. That would be

one possible reason. I actually don't

know in the case of the sephopause why,

but that kind of idea is absolutely one

of the reasons that that could have

happened. Another one, it could just be

an accident, right? There's probability

involved. And so there at some point you

have the right accident and then the

humans got the thing reversed.

So you're saying Darwin was wrong in

some respect or that he there was

something missing from his theory?

Oh, no. I I think Darwin's I I I in

terms of biology,

I think that there is um no serious

competitor to Darwin's theory of of

evolution by natural selection in in

terms of the scientific theory of the

the origin of species and so forth. And

it's Darwin's theory and the

mathematical formulation of it that I

think also says that what we're

perceiving is not the truth. that our

sensory systems on Darwin's theory were

not shaped to show us the truth. They

were shaped

to keep you alive long enough to

reproduce successfully. Period. That's

all Dharm's theory actually says. Most

of us think the way this evolutionary

process does it is to make sure that

your senses are telling you the truth

about the external reality. I've

published some papers with um with

colleagues where we show mathematically

that Darwin's theory does not entail

that at all. In fact, Darwin's theory

says the probability is zero

that any sensory system like eyes, ears,

smell, touch, taste has ever been shaped

to see any aspect of objective reality

truly. So the probability is zero that

you see any aspect of the truth. Period.

On Darwin's theory, what you do

experience is

sensory systems that guide adaptive

behavior. Guide adaptive behavior means

um they let you act.

So your eyes, your nose,

your eyes, your nose. Yeah. Yeah. Your

eyes and nose and they they guide you so

that you act in ways that you don't die

too quickly. Okay.

Okay.

And you can have kids that don't die too

quickly. I was just

that's all it's about.

I was just playing out the scenario then

that you removed my eyes and you removed

my ears and my nose and my ability to

sense, you know, temperature and things

like that. All of my senses. I thought

if I was the only person on Earth and

what would reality be? Because if you

remove my senses, reality no longer

exists as far as I'm aware of it. But

that doesn't mean nothing exists. And

I'm wondering what that nothing would be

like if you just imagine like wipe off

everyone on the earth and it's just you

and we remove all of your senses. What

what is in that space? Because you're

right, my senses, my eyes, my ears, my

ability to understand temperature is a

byproduct and consequence of me

surviving. So I was playing out this.

like, well,

if we think about ghosts and the afterlife,

afterlife,

maybe there was no reason from a

survival perspective that I even needed

to be able to

see or acknowledge them. Maybe it just

didn't help. Maybe it actually would

have hurt me to have

um because it would have been too

cognitively demanding to process all of

that information. So, anybody that could

process all that information wouldn't

have been good at reproducing.

Therefore, they wouldn't survive.

Therefore, they wouldn't be here. So

maybe those of us that are here, we're

the other dimensions.

That's what our mathematics says. I

think that your your intuitions on that

are are quite right that if you pay

attention to anything other than what

allows you to have kids, you're wasting

your time. From an evolutionary point of

view, perception is expensive. It takes

a lot of calories. You have to eat a lot

of food to to run your brain and to

power your eyes and your ears. And so

you need to do shortcuts. You need to

make your sensory systems not chew up so

much of your energy. The more expensive

your your perceptual systems are, the

more you've got to eat to to power

those. So that means you have to go out

there and forage and put yourself at

harm's. So it's it's it's so there's a

trade-off. We try to do things cheaply

in evolution. And going for the truth,

you don't need to actually go for the

truth cuz that's very very expensive. So

So for example, there are some

flying insects that need to lay their

their off their eggs on in in water and

they use the trick of just looking at

the polarization of the light coming off

the water. So what what you see

happening in evolution is we have tricks

and hacks and and even in humans have

tricks and hacks and for for example

trying to find out if someone is

reproductively fit right we we you you

can't I can't actually look at your DNA

and and go well okay

he's got an ACG and T but he's got a C

here where it's supposed to be a T or

you know I can't look at your DNA. So

what do I look at? I have to look at

your at your what I can see of your body

and and your voice and and so forth. So,

one of the most compelling arguments for

the fact that we aren't seeing reality

as it is and we're actually only seeing

what we need to see in order to survive

is when you look at, as you were saying,

as how different animals see the world

and can you just give me some examples

of some more examples of different

animals that see the world completely

differently? I always think about bats.

How do how do bats see the world? Cuz do

they see colors like we see them and

objects like we see them?

No. No. Bats use echolocation. They'll

send out little bursts of sound um very

very high frequencies and then they have

these big ears that capture the returns.

And I was just looking at their sensory

system. It says most insect eating bats

use echolocation. As you said, they emit

high frequency sound waves. Yes. And see

by listening to the echoes bouncing off

other objects. That's right. And this

gives them some kind of sonic map of

their surroundings, helping them to

navigate and effectively see in total

darkness. So you imagine a bat, right?

Like then they if a bat is sat there

thinking that they understand the nature

of reality when it's actually just a map

of how the sound waves bounce back. They

I imagine don't have the same

a complete they have a completely

different perception of what reality is

to us. And it's therefore it would be

quite ignorant to assume that we as

humans are seeing reality as it is when

just like the bat we've probably

adapted to

our environment and built senses eyes

ears touch that helped us to survive. I

would agree with you, but some of my

colleagues would disagree and they would say

say

humans are much more complicated

and you know, surely bats and so forth,

they have to have all these shortcuts

and they don't see reality as it is, but

but we've evolved further and we're

closer to the truth. From my point of

view, what I see this table and this cup

and so forth is just a a convenient

fiction. Whatever reality is, it's

utterly unlike anything that I perceive. utterly.

utterly.

In a TED talk that you did in 2000 in

the 2000s, you talked about simulations

that you ran to prove that I guess in in

in part that I'm only seeing things that

will help me to survive as a creature,

as an organism. Can you explain to me

simply what what those simulations were

and what they proved?

Well, yes. in our in our simulations and

this is before we had theorems. So we

did simulations just to see if the ideas

were working and and we would have

artificial organisms in a computer. Yeah.

Yeah.

So it was like a a game that we put

together and we would have a world and

and we would let some organisms actually

see the true state of that world. So

they they were the truth organisms. And

then we'd have other ones that um only

had like a a headset, an interface that

only could see not the truth, but but

just some little bit of information that

that could guide adaptive behavior

that would help them to survive. Yeah.

And reproduce. That That's right. What

we found was for a wide range of of

conditions of of the algorithm, the the

organisms that saw the truth went

extinct. they they weren't able to

compete the ones with the ones that

didn't. And and one of the things that

came out of it was seeing the truth

takes too much time and energy. It it's

complicated to see the truth. And if you

have a simple trick

that lets you do the same thing without

having to have a deep insight, then you

can get the same benefit. You can get

the benefit without having to put all

the the effort out. I can give you a

concrete example of a of an organism

that does this. That's that's pretty

funny. So there's the jewel beetle. It

lives in the outback of Australia. It's

dimpled, glossy, and brown. The males

fly. The females are flightless. So the

males are flying around, of course,

looking for an eligible female. It turns

out that men in the outback tended for a

while were eat were drinking beer with

these bottles that were also dimpled,

glossy, glossy, and and brown. They

throw them out into the into the outback

and they turned out to be dimpled glossy

in just the right shade of brown to grab

the attention of the male jewel beetles.

They're they're actually on the bottle.

They're full body contact. They're

crawling all over it and they still

think it's a female. So, how much do

they know about their women? Very, very

little they know about their women. The

a woman a female is something dimpled,

glossy, and brown. Apparently, the

bigger the better. And that's what a

female is. So you can see evolution

didn't give these male beetles much

insight into their females. They gave

them just enough information to

successfully reproduce. Period. And

that's sort of what evolution does. It

it gives you just enough information to

um reproduce before you die.

So they're all making love to this beer

bottle because they can't tell. They

can't see

That's right.

reality. They can't see that this isn't

a woman. This is a beer bottle.

That's right. That's one of the more

humorous examples of of what evolution

has done. It does things on the cheap

and that includes human sensory systems.

So, it's it's very humbling. We're not

the epitome. And what we think is human

appreciation of the deep truth of

reality is just our little headset. What

we experience and know is

trivial compared to whatever reality is.

Absolutely trivial. We know 0% of reality.

reality.

And our by the way, our scientific theories

theories

will always and forever explain 0% of

reality because

they have to make assumptions. And every

theory, scientific theory has to make

assumptions. And so we're going to have

an in we'll have in principle an

infinite sequence of theories with ever

deeper assumptions and we'll never get

to the bottom. And since it's an

infinite sequence, that means everything

we got so far is 0%.

So I I'm a scientist. I'm all for

science. I encourage young men and women

to go into science. I think it's a great

thing to do. Um but just know that um

comprehend 0% of reality.

You know, people talk a lot about how

their pets or other animals are able to

see another dimension. Sometimes people

say things like, "My dog started barking

at this," or, "I had cancer." And

there's dogs or animals that have been

able to um they they believe spot

certain diseases inside the human body.

And when you look at the

sort of sensory faculties of these dogs,

dogs can hear frequencies up to 65,000

hertz, whereas humans can only go to

20,000 hertz. Dogs have up to 300

million of receptors. Humans just have 5

million. And some animals like cats can

see different sort of frequencies of

light. So it does it does beg a

question, you know, if it's possible for

an animal, an organism to see the world

in a different depth and width than us, right?

right?

What what happens if you go further?

Right. Absolutely. There are some that

can detect electric fields. So some fish

can detect electric fields. Um, some

birds, I believe, can see the

polarization of light and some some uh

insects of course use polarization of

light to to find where to lay their

eggs. So, and and we can't do that. So,

so yeah, when we start to study other

animals, we see these remarkable abilities.

abilities.

Interesting. And what does um what does

this all mean for the nature of how one

should understand their life? Because I

guess the way the way that we perceive

the world causes us so much suffering or

joy depending on how we perceive it. Is

there anything people from all of the

work you've done and the books you've

written that people can bring into their

lives to help them live better lives

with this understanding of the world?

First thing to note is that the world is

far more interesting and varied than you

can imagine. So if you if you think the

world is a boring place, it it's not.

Your imagination isn't big enough.

Whatever reality is, it it transcends

anything that you could possibly

imagine. Spiritual traditions basically

often say there's more to life than what

you see inside space and time. There's

something beyond.

And I've been sort of pointing to that

myself in my own way. I'm saying that

scientific theories always have

assumptions. So there's an infinite

number of scientific theories that you

can have and you're never going to get a

scientific theory of everything. What am

I saying? that there's something beyond

science. As good as science is, I'm

saying there's not only not a theory of

everything, the best theory we'll ever

come up with is 0% of reality. So that

leaves all this room for what the

spiritual traditions are talking about

that there's something that trans

transcends science. There is a a way of

thinking about this that I think is very

illuminating and it's about the inter

intersection of science and spirituality.

spirituality.

I'm a scientist. Who who am I? I I am

someone and and I'm one of many

someone's other scientists who can

create theories and in principle even

ever deeper theories and there is an

infinite sequence. So who is the eye

that can do this?

No theory that I can come with come up

with is the final description of that

eye. In other words, the eye that is

doing all this theory building is the eye

eye

that is real,

that is making these theories, and that

utterly transcends all these theories.

And that's a spiritual point of view.

So what does that mean? You're you're God.

God.

It means that whatever you are

transcends any description. And that's

what a lot of people say God is. Suppose

I give you something you've never tasted

before, like a piece of mint. And

actually, I don't know what mint tastes

like to you. I I assume that it's like

what mint tastes like for me, but I

don't know. This is called learning by

ostensive definition. And so, we have

this game where your experiences are

your experiences.

And you actually

didn't need anybody else for those

experiences. All you needed me for or

your parents for is to give you a name

for what you already knew. And and you

you create this this world and all we do

is tell you how to talk with me about

what you've created. And I don't know

that your world

in any way resembles my experience. It's

quite possible. And do you think there's

ways that we cause ourselves a lot of

anguish and pain and mental health

issues because of how we perceive the

nature of reality to be that we could

potentially I don't know give up or

rewire ourselves on to have a have a

more fulfilling more grateful experience

of life

completely. I think that's very very

important and it's a natural consequence

of what we've just been talking about.

Almost all of us think of ourselves as

an object in spaceime only here for a

short amount of time and will soon die.

When I say you transcend any scientific

theory, that means the theory that I

am just a 160lb object in spaceime is

just a theory and it's not the truth.

That's not the truth about who I am.

That's just a theory that I have because

spacetime itself is just a theory.

Nothing inside spacetime is anything but

my headset interpretation of a reality

that infinitely transcends anything I

can experience. There is another way

that you can appreciate that that's that

transcends science and that is um and

this many meditative traditions talk

about this. They recognize that you

are infinitely

beyond any scientific or any other

description. So what do you do in that

case to know who you are? You drop all

descriptions. You sit in absolute

silence and ignore any thoughts because

you recognize thoughts are useful in

this headset. And to play the game of

life, yeah, we need thoughts to do our

science. We need to if you want to

again I do psychology I do all this I'll

do the scient so I'm not putting science

down I'm a scientist but at some point

if you want to understand the truth of

who you are beyond just this headset

description of you then you have to lay

aside all concepts period and just know

yourself by being yourself not by

putting a concept between you and yourself.

yourself.

A story.

An identity.

That's right. No, no story. No ident.

You You know yourself by sitting in

utter silence and being yourself. No

concepts because then you've let go of

all theories. And now it's reality

facing reality. No barrier in between.

And that requires you to realize that

your identity, the stories you believe,

the labels you've given yourself as CEO

or social media manager or manager or

director or head of department, all of

these things are just in fact labels

you've given.

That's right. Those are all just labels

that you given. And what's interesting

about this now is if I think I'm just

this little body and I'm nothing but

this body and and my conscious

experiences are nothing but what my

brain does. So, so that's my theory and

that's that's all I am. I don't feel

very big. I don't feel very important.

Um, and so I'm going to probably need to

do something to make myself feel a

little bit better and I'm going to need

to compete with you. I'm going to need

to show how I'm better than you in

certain ways. So, I'm I'm a better

tennis player than you or I'm smarter

than you or or whatever. So we're going

to get this competition going on where

among people and we're going to get even

competition among religions and

countries and so forth because we don't

know who we are and and we feel inadequate

inadequate

all of this that I'm seeing right now

I'm making it up

on the fly. This cup that I'm seeing, it

only exists when I create it. This table

exists when I create it. Like in a

virtual reality, if I in a virtual

reality, I'm in Grand Theft Auto. I look

over here and I now I see a red Mustang.

I look away, I don't see the red

Mustang. And now there is no red

Mustang. The red mustang only existed

when I looked because it's a VR game. I

only need it when I ren I I render it

when I need it. I'm now rendering a cup.

that the cup that I rendered is no

longer there. You might render your cup.

You might say, "Well, no, Don, you're

wrong. The cup is still there. I can see

it." No, you're rendering your cup. And

so you you're you're not rendering my

cup. I rendered my cup. So the same

thing with Grand Theft Auto. You might

say, "Well, I see the red Mustang even

if you're not looking, Don." Well,

that's because in your headset, you're

looking and you're rendering a the red

Mustang, but I'm not. And there is no

red Mustang. If you look inside the

supercomputer, there's no red Mustang

there. The the supercomputer that's

running the game has no red Mustang. So

what I'm saying is we compete, we feel

inadequate and we feel like we need to

compete with other people and be better

than them and we have egos. All the

egoic stuff that we do that causes all

the problems in the world because you

don't know who you are.

You're creating this whole thing. You're

you're you're not a little player.

You're the inventor of this whole thing.

You have nothing to prove

and you don't need to be better than

anybody else. They're also master

creators. They're creating entire

universes that they perceive as well.

And my own take on on this is that you

and I

are really the same one reality just

looking at itself through two different

headsets, two different avatars and

having a conversation. And maybe that's

what you is required for this one

infinite intelligence to sort of know

itself. What you if you're if you

transcend any description, what how do

you know yourself? Maybe what you do is

you say, "Well, let me try this headset

on. Let me take that seriously for a

while. Maybe even let myself get lost

and let me let me completely believe I'm

just a Don Hoffman in in in this

spaceime and let me believe that for for

many decades and then slowly sort of

wake up. But at least then I will have

seen myself from this perspective. Then

I'll take off that headset." We call

that death. We all just take off the

headset and then I'll try. There's an

infinite number of headsets to try on.

So from that point of view, any person

you speak to is transcendent. Any animal

is just an avatar of this transcendent

unspeakably incredible

reality that transcends science so that

science will only get 0% of it. And

again, I always say I'm not putting down

science. I'm a scientist. We need to do

science and I recommend that people do

science. But my guess this is one of the

more trivial headsets. It's only four

dimensions. Why not 20 billion? Why not

quintilion? This is this is just a a

fairly trivial. So we we may be in one

of the most the more uninteresting

perspectives on who we are. And and and

there are much more interesting

perspectives that we can take on oursel.

But but the reason we have fighting, the

reason we have egos is because we don't

know who we are. And is there a way for

me to understand who I am

or is the closest you've found

meditation? I know you've meditated for

20 years or something.

I I should say I should be a little

careful about I think it really is

important to do for for me as a

scientist to have done the science that

I've done. But I think for someone else

who doesn't do science, maybe that you

do music or you do some sports or

something like that. That's that is a

concrete way of knowing yourself through

a perspective and that's really

important and and and since we have

billions of people and then there's

untold other kinds of animals and

insects and so forth. This this one

infinite intelligence whatever it is has

decided I want to look at myself through

the lens of a mosquito and now of the

bumblebee and now of the the jewel

beetle that that can't even tell a

bottle from from a female. I'm going to

look at myself from this paniply of perspectives.

perspectives.

So you're almost implying there that

there's this one consciousness and it's

just using different organisms

potentially as vehicles to understand

itself and the nature of reality.

That's right. So that would mean that me

and you are the same consciousness, but

you were born as a scientist in America

and I was born as a I don't know an

entrepreneur in Botswana with different

perspectives in order to understand the

reality which means that we're basically

the same right

right

the same consciousness the same super

intelligence or whatever just

manifesting as different eyeballs in

different places. That's my my view and

certain religious traditions do sort of

hint almost say that exactly um you know

like Jesus

uh in Christianity in like Matthew 25

says you know I was hungry and you fed

me. I was thirsty you gave me something

to drink. I was a foreigner and you

invited me in. I was sick and you helped

me. I was in prison and you visited me.

And people he says said asked him when

did we do that? And you said whenever

you did it to the least person you did

it to me. So Jesus is sort of hinting at

there's no difference. The reason to

love your neighbor as yourself is

because your neighbor is yourself just

with a different headset. And the only

reason we have problems is we don't

realize how incredible you are. So you

are that which is creating this VR

simulation with all of its beauty, all

of its complexity. All the complexity is

you and you're doing it effortlessly.

Now for my

neuroscience colleagues, they will say,

"Don, it's not effortless. You've got

100 billion well 86 billion neurons in

your brain. visual system has billions

of neurons that are doing all this

computation and you we have the simple

cells, the complex cells, the hyper

complex cells and we think of the brain

as a physical object that's generating

our consciousness. Yeah,

I'm saying spacetime itself is something

that you create and so you create

everything inside spaceime and

I've also created the brain.

You create the brain. So right now you

don't have a brain.

Excuse me.

And nor do I.

Okay, fair enough. because I don't

because I don't have a brain and you

don't have a brain until we actually

look inside and render a brain. Just

like in in VR, the the Mustang doesn't

exist until you look at it and render

it. So if if I I can predict that if we

do the right scans, we will see a brain.

But that only exists when we

when we do the rendering. So I don't

have a brain. All these correlations, we

know that correlation doesn't cause

doesn't imply causation, right? So we

the fact that there is correlations and

I don't deny it. In fact, I'm all for

studying these correlations between

brain activity and conscious

experiences. They exist. They're

undeniable and they don't in any way

remotely entail that the brain causes

our conscious experiences.

So I'm not the brain. I'm the thing

that's simulating the presence of a brain.

brain.

That's right. That's right. And so in

your simulation, your simulation is so

good that it simulates also how all this

reality that transcends spaceime is

being funneled down into this tiny

little space-time headset. And that's

what we call the brain. So of course

there going to be these correlations

between brain activity and what we see.

But the correlation goes the other way.

It's not because the brain creates your

conscious experiences. is because

consciousness has created the brain as

an icon to describe how it's how it's

creating this headset.

Do you think much about simulation

theory? I've had lots of uh dinner

parties recently and conversations over

dinner about simulation theory and it

always gets very very interesting. Um

what are your thoughts on simulation

theory? And for my listeners who might

not understand the concept of simulation

theory, are you able to explain it? Yes,

the the so the standard uh Nick

Bostonramm for example is is a very big

figure in simulation theory and and in

those kinds of simulation theories the

idea is that the world that you're

seeing right now isn't the the true

world. This is just a simulation and

there's some

programmer say with some really nice

computer that's programmed this world.

And so we're you're just we're just

characters in a simulated world of some

programmer. And that programmer on their

laptop that's doing this, as it turns

out, isn't the final thing either

because that programmer in their laptop

is also just a simulation from a deeper

level programmer on their laptop. there

could be the very very large nesting of

all these simulated worlds and and

people with their computers and that

does jive pretty well with what I'm

saying up to a point. I'm saying this is

not the reality. This is just a headset.

So, but there's a big big disagreement.

Do you think we're there's going to come

a point where with everything that's

going on with AI and robotics that we

could get make a robot um program it

with a certain AI that gives it the sort

of same thinking as a human being and

then when I put some chocolate into its

mouth it's going to say to me I love

that chocolate Stephen that's my

favorite flavor

I could certainly program such a robot

but the question will always be just

because I have this particular circuit

in the in the computer

and you know then some structure in the

tongue that I've given it in some

pattern electro activity. What is my

scientific theory that explains why that

pattern had to be the taste of

chocolate? That's what we need as scienting

scienting

thing where it's just learned through

all of the data through someone telling

it programming it to think that

particular set of chemicals um send that

up to the software and then respond like

this which might just be how me and you

responding to life. We might not be

conscious at all.

Right? And and what you're suggesting is

probably how we would actually do it,

like we would probably sort of train it

and and and have it give us the right

responses in in that kind of context. So

we'd probably do it something like that.

But but then as scientists, we want to

understand. So we're claiming as scientists

scientists

that an experience is a say certain

causal structure or certain functional

functional architecture. That's what

we're saying it is.

Because we because these these are

physicalist theories and they're they're

saying we're not going to start with

consciousness. Consciousness is not

fundamental. Space and time and physical

objects are fundamental. And so we we

need to show how those physical objects

and their properties give rise to these

conscious experiences. So if that's if

that's the science you want to propose,

then I have to be hard-nosed as a

scientist now and say give me your

theory of mint. So do you think this is

a simulation?

So it's it's not a simulation in

Bostonramm sense. In Boston sense it's a

simulation in that it's a physical

substrate that's giving rise to this

whole world of conscious experiences

that I'm having.

Yeah. So it's that I deny

like a game programmer sat at a computer

making it

and that and somehow the physical system

itself gave rise to the magic of the ex

the conscious experiences I'm having of

red and green and love and so forth

those conscious so for the simulation

theory so this is my p my bone of

contention with the simulation theory

it's very similar to my theory in in all

other respects but this is a pretty

serious bone of contention for their

theory to to work they have to show

explicitly scientifically how a

conscious a specific conscious

experience arises from a specific program.

program.

Until you do that, this is there is no

beef on the table.

Right? So for my point, their their

theory is a non-starter right now

because there's no specific experience

that they can say this program must be

the taste of mint. They can't do that.

And until they can do that, they can't

get this whole world of experience that

I'm living in. Nothing. So there's no beef.

beef.

All they have to do to give me some beef

is to say like in integrated information

theory they say here's the matrix for

mint. This is the matrix. Of course then

we'll ask

why. Why is that matrix that causal

structure the taste of mint? what is

your scientific theory for why that's

the and what you'll see is

I think I think it's going to take the

field a while to see it but we will find

that these approaches are vacuous

there's no beef

when you ask people what the meaning of

their life is they'll often say things

like it is maybe they'll say to raise

children maybe they'll say they want to

improve humanity they want to um cure a

disease they want to um help society in

some way but through the lens of reality

that you see the world and that you

believe the world is what becomes the

meaning of life. Donald,

that's a great question. I do think that

the best description I can give is that

there is this one transcendent infinite

consciousness and you and I are just

avatars and so is a mosquito and so is a

bacterium. And all are equally

interesting and important and all are

different perspectives, just different

headsets. There's the mosquito headset.

There's the jewel beetle headset.

There's all these different headsets. And

And

I'm I'm in the Hoffman headset. Happen to

do science. I'm not good at art. I'm not

good at at music and so forth. I have my

my my particular talents and and in

inabilities in my headset. So, I'm here

to experience the Don Hoffman

perspective on things. Why?

Why?

because that's perhaps the only way the

infinite can know itself is through an

infinite number of perspectives. It it

transcends any particular perspective. So

why not get lost in the hoffen

perspective and a jewel beetle

perspective and and all these different

perspectives and that's

that's

the only way to to know yourself. But

it's always

the one consciousness that's knowing

itself through an infinite number of varieties

varieties

of of experiences of headsets.

And did someone or something create that

one consciousness?

Now I'm above my pay grade. It's uh

that's a no no that's of course the

right question and

it asks for an explanation and

and

the only explanations we have are either

mathematical or scientific or both. The

only really deeply serious testable

but but even informal explanations make

assumptions. And so I'll have to say

that that you're asking a question about

an entity that transcends any

description, namely who you really are

and who I am I really am.

And I think we can I think you can know

the answer to your question in in one

way and that is

dropping all concepts and just being

with your being. You are that

you are that. You don't need to attain

anything. You don't need to achieve anything.

anything.

You're that right now. So there's no

effort. There's no no need to get better

at anything. It's just to recognize what

you already are. You've let yourself be

under an illusion that I'm just this

little guy that needs to do these things

and, you know, and be a professor and

whatever it might be. I've been under

that illusion and and I got to see

myself through that lens and then I

began to wake up and see that I

completely transcend. It was an

interesting perspective. I'm glad I took

it seriously. I'm going to throw off

that headset. We call it death, but I'm

going to take off that headset pretty

soon because that's not who I am. I

transcend that.

So, the answer is you can know it, but

but you know it when you let go of all

concepts and you don't try. If you're

trying to get there, then you don't see

what you already are. That's that that's

the best answer I can give at this at

this point because it does transcend science.

science.

So, in terms of a god, as we believe in

gods in the religious context, the best

answer that you have would say that

effectively we are god, the god that we

we refer to, we are the transcendent

power that goes beyond description. And

And

Right. Yeah. I I would say that and and

I can I mean I can put that in sort of a

Christian language um because many

listeners will be Christians. Um

a child of a human is a human.

The Bible calls us children of God.

Well, if a child of a human is human, a

child of God is God. That's what the

what what is point to and and Jesus is

fairly explicit about it. When

some religious leaders were about to

stone Jesus for saying that he was the

son of God,

Jesus quotes the scripture and says

from I think the the Psalms or something

like that. He says, but in the Psalms it

says, "I have said you are gods and all

of you are sons of the most high." And

Jesus said, "If if he calls them gods to

whom the word of God came, why are you

trying to stone me to death for just

saying I'm the son of God?" What what

the Bible is basically saying, love God

with all your heart. That it's loving

yourself. You are God. And loving your

neighbor as yourself is just recognizing

that your neighbor is yourself under a

different avatar.

Do you think Jesus was really divine in

any I'm presuming you think this was a

real individual and do you think he was

divine beyond beyond me and you in some respect?

respect?

Not beyond me and you, but you're you

are as divine as could possibly be.

Thank you so much.

We'll clip that. I'll put that on my LinkedIn.

LinkedIn.

Hoffman said it.

Yeah. Little recommendations.

You're divine. Hoffman says, "I'm as

divine as I could possibly be."

Are there any um Are there You must go

if you if you understand

reality through this lens that we're

seeing so little and that much of it is

created by by ourselves and um we are

the transcendent. Are there any things

that you do on a day-to-day basis that

are atypical because of that or thoughts

you have or experiences you have that

are atypical because of this perspective?

perspective?

Certainly atypical from before in my own

in my own life. I now spend um

quite a bit of time in meditation

because I I as much as I enjoy the life

of the mind and I'm you know I a

professor and I've taught lots of

students over many many years

and I highly recommend all that stuff.

At some point I realize that all my

knowledge all possible scientific

knowledge is 0% of reality. And do I

really want to confine myself only to 0%

of reality? I want to explore reality

from this perspective but it is 0%. So I

do my homework and I encourage my

students do more homework take this

perspective very seriously study it

study it rigorously but then realize

there's this the 100% that you haven't

seen and you are it.

So are you doing lots of psychedelics

and stuff like that to

I haven't done any psychedelics.

You've never tried psychedelics?

I I I've never I've never even smoked a cigarette.

cigarette.

Wow. I I and I haven't had a drink of

alcohol in in decades. So I I and it's

partly just because I'm I'm frail. My my

physical body isn't that strong. I I I

have limits to what I can't push my body

too hard. So I' I've learned to operate

within my own limits and I don't push it

too hard. But the meditation I do.

Am I right in thinking that you now

meditate 3 to four hours a day?

Probably. Yeah. What insights or

understandings have emerged from that

that I might be able to comprehend?

Any creativity that's ever come out in

my scientific work

toever to whatever extent it's creative,

it's come from the silence. So I've of

course I've had to do my homework and do

my studies and so forth. But the novel ideas

ideas

come from the silence. Personally,

identified I am with my avatar.

I think I am this body. I'm really tied

the stuff that I'm saying

at the emotional level. There's an

emotional part of me that doesn't

believe it one bit.

Emotionally, um, you put a gun to my

head, I'm scared to death.

Intellectually, I'll say say to you,

this is just an avatar. I I'm the

infinite that transcends.

So, and when I die, I just and and I

believe that. How deeply do I believe

it? Put a gun to my head and you'll find

out. I'll wet my pants. So, it's it's

it's very very interesting for me to

look at that and to see all the

disjunctions, the the the the things

that are disjointed in in in my my

worldview. Well, it kind of makes sense,

right, based on your theory that our

senses have evolved to help us to

survive because someone not liking your

thinking or your theories or rejecting

you or harmed your body, it would go

against your survival. So theoretically,

if we are in the world that you've

described in the reality you've

described, which is basically designed

for survival, then you would have

developed senses that make you change

behavior if there's a risk of someone

not liking you.

That's right. there there are social

pressures and and if we don't conform to

them, you get feedback that that can be

very very negative and in some cases

even death. Um if I if I go to a grocery

store and and don't happen to pay and

just walk off with the stuff, I end up

behind bars. There are rules of the

game. There are rules of the headset. I

transcend the headset, but I choose to

allow myself to get lost in the game.

Starting in January 2020, you

did have a proverbial gun held to your

head in in a way because you contracted

COVID and went through and are still

going through some pretty um serious

health complications because of long CO.

You developed heart heart issues within

weeks requiring hundreds of hours of

critical care in hospital. You told me

before we started recording that you've

had heart surgery twice.

Yeah. Um, in 2021 at 66 years old, at

one point you thought you might not

survive because your heart had been at

190 beats per minute for 30 hours and

you sent your wife a goodbye message

because it looked like it was all over.

Right. Right. I am wondering what that

brush with death

did to your perception of life, your

perspective, and how that all ties into

your your um your beliefs about the

nature of reality.

It certainly let me see how tied I am to

my body and the fear that I that I

experienced. Right? It's one thing for

me to sit here as a nice academic and

talk about how you're the transcendent

reality. It's another thing to have your

heart fail and to know that this is

probably the end and and to face the raw

emotions. So I had deep ra then I had to

have another surgery. I um the first one

kept me for a year and a half or so. A

great surgeon is not his fault. He did a

great job but you know CO is persistent.

And the week before my second surgery I

was in the ER three times where they had

to restart my heart. Just didn't know if

I was going to make it. I I would have

to go have my heart restart and then two

days later go back and have my heart

restart and I was just hoping to make it

to live to the surgery. Um and and even

now I wouldn't be surprised if the heart

starts to to go bad again. So so that

takes us out of the abstract academic

realm into something very very concrete

on how do you deal with the fact that

you really don't know from one heartbeat

to the next.

It keeps you from just talking

abstractly about this stuff and and and

and being real about it is what do I

really feel about it? And and when I

look inside and see there's real fear,

then I know, okay, um this stuff about

um you're the infinite and everybody

else is the infinite is still fairly

just an abstract concept for you, Don.

You haven't really gone deep enough. You

need to go deeper and actually if that's

true, I mean maybe it's all BS, right?

But if it's true that you are the

infinite and everybody else is the

infinite um then you need to go deeper

into that. Um and and I intellectually

I'm I'm convinced. I mean I've given you

the reasons. Intellectually I'm quite

convinced. Um and it's it's really

interesting to me that emotionally I'm

far from convinced. I'm far and I agree

with what you just said about the

evolutionary arguments for it. there's

good evolutionary reasons for me to be

wired up to have automatic emotional

responses that are going to protect this

body to keep it. So, no, no doubt about

it. So, so there's no reason to judge

myself that I'm a, you know, my body has

a fear response and so forth when there

are things that that are about to to

kill me. The issue is then when I look

at that fear response, can I look at it

and accept it or do I identify with it?

Do I identify

with the fear response or can I step

back and be the observer that watches

the fear response? And in in the

meditation process, what I'm learning to do

do is

in some sense what I was saying about

the science, science is great, but don't

believe any theory.

Theories are just tools. They're not the

truth. No scientific theory, my theories

included, are not the truth.

And so also is my theory about who I am

not the truth. So to really let go of

any theory, if I can really let go of

any theory of who I am,

then I'll let go of any fear. So it's

really it's really comes down to to this

what's really really quite interesting.

We will each die. That's incontrovertible.

incontrovertible. So

any attachments I have to this world

will cease.

There's no doubt. The question is can I

let go of the attachments now or will

they only

go for my cold dead hand?

When will I let go of all these

attachments? If I my to the extent and I

expert but to the extent that I can let

go I see that there's more peace there's

more peace in letting not being attached

to things so I I I see that but but I'm

not there. So this is a very human very

human perspective on things a very

fallible perspective and it's very very

interesting. So I'm claiming I'm the

infinite and I'm the infinite having

taken on this this bodily form and

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So when we do die in your

perspective, is that equivalent to sort

of taking the headset off entirely?

entirely?

And so when we die, we take the headset

off and

That's right.

The consciousness still remains, I assume.

assume.

That's right.

So how would one am I going to when I

die, am I going to float up and be in

like a heaven? Am I going to go into a

tree? Am I going to become a bug? What's

going to happen with that consciousness?

Is it going to be this or is this just a

bunch of labels and stories?

Question. The answer is I don't know.

But but I but I I will speculate. Having

said I don't know. And and being honest,

I I'll I'll speculate. I suspect that

the closest I can get to that is what

happens in meditation. When I really do

let go there and and and it's very very

quiet and my eyes are closed

then there's there is awareness and it's a very alert awareness very very

a very alert awareness very very conscious and it has no content. There's

conscious and it has no content. There's no colors no tastes no smells there's no

no colors no tastes no smells there's no content and

content and no need.

no need. It's it's it's

It's it's it's an awareness that can create all this in

an awareness that can create all this in an instant

an instant and it can let it go. So it's it's

and it can let it go. So it's it's so so

so so it it is the

it it is the the closest you can get to answering

the closest you can get to answering your own question is really just to sit

your own question is really just to sit in silence. And it's it's hard because

in silence. And it's it's hard because the thoughts will come and come and come

the thoughts will come and come and come and letting go of all thoughts is is is

and letting go of all thoughts is is is the difficult one. But when you do that,

the difficult one. But when you do that, then I think that's the closest I can

then I think that's the closest I can give to the answer to your question.

give to the answer to your question. We spend a lot of time debating whether

We spend a lot of time debating whether this god is real or whether this thing

this god is real or whether this thing is real or whether horoscopes are real

is real or whether horoscopes are real or whether

or whether this spiritual belief is real or karma

this spiritual belief is real or karma or dharma or reincarnation,

or dharma or reincarnation, right?

right? In your perspective then is it somewhat

In your perspective then is it somewhat ignorant to set your stall up anywhere

ignorant to set your stall up anywhere to say that something is or isn't true?

to say that something is or isn't true? Because you know people are different

Because you know people are different sides of the spectrum. Some people are

sides of the spectrum. Some people are like you know staunch staunchly

like you know staunch staunchly religious and then others are staunchly

religious and then others are staunchly atheist.

atheist. Right. Right. Right. I I think that

of course like in science there are certain things that are just plain

certain things that are just plain nonsense. Someone in in fact most of the

nonsense. Someone in in fact most of the stuff that you just casually come up

stuff that you just casually come up with and you my theory of electricity or

with and you my theory of electricity or my theory of the atoms it's just not

my theory of the atoms it's just not it's just plain nonsense and and goes

it's just plain nonsense and and goes nowhere. It's not worth any time. So I

nowhere. It's not worth any time. So I suspect the same thing is true in

suspect the same thing is true in spiritual stuff where we have even fewer

spiritual stuff where we have even fewer guard rails on our theories. But I think

guard rails on our theories. But I think there are a few guiding stars. If it

there are a few guiding stars. If it involves loving your neighbor as

involves loving your neighbor as yourself, you're on the right track. If

yourself, you're on the right track. If it involves putting a barrier between us

it involves putting a barrier between us and them and saying that they're bad and

and them and saying that they're bad and we're good, you're probably on the wrong

we're good, you're probably on the wrong track.

track. What does this mean for grief? So many

What does this mean for grief? So many people are losing loved ones as we speak

people are losing loved ones as we speak or are contending with the reality that

or are contending with the reality that they are going to lose a loved one. What

they are going to lose a loved one. What does it mean for the nature of love?

does it mean for the nature of love? Does it, you know, does it take anything

Does it, you know, does it take anything away from love? Does it add to love?

away from love? Does it add to love? Does it

Does it strengthen love? Well, I would yeah, I

strengthen love? Well, I would yeah, I think in some sense it comes down to

think in some sense it comes down to love is the central thing and uh and you

love is the central thing and uh and you know in Christianity Jesus that's I'm

know in Christianity Jesus that's I'm talking about that because you know my

talking about that because you know my dad was a pastor and I that's the one I

dad was a pastor and I that's the one I was raised in. So I I know the most

was raised in. So I I know the most about that. So I'm speaking only because

about that. So I'm speaking only because that's where I had some background

that's where I had some background and and and when Jesus would ask what's

and and and when Jesus would ask what's the most important thing he basically

the most important thing he basically said love God with all your heart love

said love God with all your heart love your neighbor as yourself. So love is

your neighbor as yourself. So love is like

like number one. And my guess is that's

number one. And my guess is that's really all you need. If if your religion

really all you need. If if your religion is love and that's it and that's then

is love and that's it and that's then that's how you act. You don't really

that's how you act. You don't really need to add anything more to that.

need to add anything more to that. That's that's all you really need. Love

That's that's all you really need. Love your neighbor as yourself.

your neighbor as yourself. You're done.

You're done. That's all that you need. And anything

That's all that you need. And anything beyond that is just not necessary. And

beyond that is just not necessary. And anything that contradicts that, I would

anything that contradicts that, I would go back and try to figure out where I

go back and try to figure out where I went wrong in my religion.

went wrong in my religion. I've been um asking my when I met my

I've been um asking my when I met my girlfriend Melanie in her bio on

girlfriend Melanie in her bio on Instagram, it said, "God is love." Now,

Instagram, it said, "God is love." Now, she's not religious.

she's not religious. Yes.

Yes. She doesn't believe in a particular book

She doesn't believe in a particular book or whatever, but she when you I asked

or whatever, but she when you I asked her actually, funny enough, we had this

her actually, funny enough, we had this conversation last night.

conversation last night. Ah,

Ah, I said to her, "What do you think uh God

I said to her, "What do you think uh God is?" And she said, "I think God is just

is?" And she said, "I think God is just love."

love." And I I completely agree.

And I I completely agree. She's right again.

She's right again. Yeah. And know I think that that's love

Yeah. And know I think that that's love is the closest word that we can have to

is the closest word that we can have to to as a pointer. Again, it's just a

to as a pointer. Again, it's just a pointer. Whatever love is is just like

pointer. Whatever love is is just like the word mint only points to the mint.

the word mint only points to the mint. The word love only points but it I think

The word love only points but it I think it's the best pointer that we have.

it's the best pointer that we have. Love.

Love. And what is that definition of the word

And what is that definition of the word love? Because, you know, people use the

love? Because, you know, people use the I love Manchester United, but the love

I love Manchester United, but the love that you're describing seems to be much

that you're describing seems to be much more about a a oneness or or it's

more about a a oneness or or it's basically just really recognizing

basically just really recognizing that that person, even though they have

that that person, even though they have a different color, a different race, a

a different color, a different race, a different creed, a different idea,

different creed, a different idea, that's just me.

that's just me. That's me in a different headset.

That's me in a different headset. And when I really then then I ask, well,

And when I really then then I ask, well, how would I want to treat me? I get the

how would I want to treat me? I get the right answer. That's love. How would I

right answer. That's love. How would I if that's me, how how how would I treat

if that's me, how how how would I treat me if that were me? Well, when you get

me if that were me? Well, when you get the right when you do that, you're

the right when you do that, you're acting in love. You're not going to beat

acting in love. You're not going to beat yourself up. You're not going to call

yourself up. You're not going to call yourself names. You're you're not going

yourself names. You're you're not going to call your call you whatever. You're

to call your call you whatever. You're you're you're going to treat yourself

you're you're going to treat yourself the way you want to treat yourself. then

the way you want to treat yourself. then treat others the same way and that's

treat others the same way and that's that's what what love is. But ultimately

that's what what love is. But ultimately I think again these are all just

I think again these are all just pointers. Whatever

pointers. Whatever love is ultimately transcends any

love is ultimately transcends any description. Do you believe I did kind

description. Do you believe I did kind of ask you this earlier, but I was just

of ask you this earlier, but I was just looking at some of the research around

looking at some of the research around how many people talk about these

how many people talk about these near-death experiences specifically when

near-death experiences specifically when they more so when you have a cardiac

they more so when you have a cardiac issue, people seem to say that they had

issue, people seem to say that they had perceptions of hearing or seeing things

perceptions of hearing or seeing things or passing into some kind of tunnel or

or passing into some kind of tunnel or seeing some kind of light or a really

seeing some kind of light or a really positive emotion.

positive emotion. Yes. I I wondered if you you know you

Yes. I I wondered if you you know you were at one point in your life thought

were at one point in your life thought that you weren't going to make it and if

that you weren't going to make it and if if with what you know you it's increased

if with what you know you it's increased your belief in these near-death

your belief in these near-death experience accounts that someone was

experience accounts that someone was sort of transitioning from this reality

sort of transitioning from this reality through taking the headset off. Like

through taking the headset off. Like it's almost like they took a little bit

it's almost like they took a little bit of the headset off but not all of it and

of the headset off but not all of it and then they came back to the headset. So

then they came back to the headset. So yeah, these very common experiences

yeah, these very common experiences about near-death um a light and a tunnel

about near-death um a light and a tunnel and and maybe a life review and then a

and and maybe a life review and then a choice to come back and things like

choice to come back and things like that. It's quite it's quite quite common

that. It's quite it's quite quite common and I'm not going going to dismiss them

and I'm not going going to dismiss them one one bit. I mean I it's hard to get

one one bit. I mean I it's hard to get scientific evidence on that. It would be

scientific evidence on that. It would be very interesting to have a study in

very interesting to have a study in which people did have their heart stop

which people did have their heart stop for example were resuscitated and ask

for example were resuscitated and ask how many don't have that experience be I

how many don't have that experience be I mean if we had a systematic study that

mean if we had a systematic study that that that did that so we don't want to

that that did that so we don't want to be tricked by um paying attention to

be tricked by um paying attention to only certain parts of the data right so

only certain parts of the data right so so so you can see um even though I talk

so so you can see um even though I talk about letting go of concepts and and and

about letting go of concepts and and and and going into the the unknown when when

and going into the the unknown when when it comes to things where where we should

it comes to things where where we should do science then I'm very very hard-nosed

do science then I'm very very hard-nosed about it and and say here we need to do

about it and and say here we need to do to do studies and some I know some

to do studies and some I know some cardiologists I'm not going to mention

cardiologists I'm not going to mention names but that that have seen a lot of

names but that that have seen a lot of this stuff and they're convinced by

this stuff and they're convinced by their own informal experience that

their own informal experience that there's something going on here so I I

there's something going on here so I I have no you know no beef with that I I'm

have no you know no beef with that I I'm I'm I think that they might be on to

I'm I think that they might be on to something

something so I don't disbelieve it but That's

so I don't disbelieve it but That's different than having the science.

different than having the science. Why do we suffer in such a reality? Like

Why do we suffer in such a reality? Like why would why would this transcendent

why would why would this transcendent power create

power create organisms or perspectives that end up

organisms or perspectives that end up suffering that end up in the worst of

suffering that end up in the worst of places, the concentration camp, the

places, the concentration camp, the illness, the typhoid, the starvation?

illness, the typhoid, the starvation? Why would such a transcendent power or

Why would such a transcendent power or consciousness do such a thing?

consciousness do such a thing? Um, so, so I'll try not to be shallow

Um, so, so I'll try not to be shallow about it, but because pain is

about it, but because pain is pain is pain and death is death and

pain is pain and death is death and certain deaths seem horrific. This is

certain deaths seem horrific. This is a profound question.

a profound question. I always feel like I'm risking being

I always feel like I'm risking being trit and and and so forth because this

trit and and and so forth because this is anybody who's had serious pain knows

is anybody who's had serious pain knows that you just you just can't

that you just you just can't you can't play with this stuff. It's

you can't play with this stuff. It's it's it's when you when you're in that

it's it's when you when you're in that pain, it really when you're with that

pain, it really when you're with that fear, it's it's it's

fear, it's it's it's I think ultimately

I think ultimately it may be like the wounds you get in a

it may be like the wounds you get in a video game.

video game. You get the wounds, your your avatar

You get the wounds, your your avatar gets killed and and and you're upset

gets killed and and and you're upset about it in the moment because you're

about it in the moment because you're losing the game and so forth, but but

losing the game and so forth, but but then the game's over and and and you're

then the game's over and and and you're fine ultimately.

fine ultimately. you're fine.

you're fine. But

But that experience, I'll put it, I don't

that experience, I'll put it, I don't want to be in that experience.

want to be in that experience. It's striking that in Christianity, the

It's striking that in Christianity, the the deepest symbol of God is

the deepest symbol of God is horrific.

horrific. A crucifixion,

A crucifixion, it's absolutely the pain. It's it's not

it's absolutely the pain. It's it's not like a little shot to the head with a

like a little shot to the head with a gun or something like that. It's it's

gun or something like that. It's it's it's making it as painful and as drawn

it's making it as painful and as drawn out and as horrific as you could

out and as horrific as you could possibly do. And that and that's that's

possibly do. And that and that's that's you know when you see the cross that's

you know when you see the cross that's sort of so your your question is right

sort of so your your question is right at like the heart of Christianity. It's

at like the heart of Christianity. It's putting that right there and it's saying

putting that right there and it's saying this most perhaps the most horrific way

this most perhaps the most horrific way you can imagine a person dying.

you can imagine a person dying. That's what happened to Jesus and that's

That's what happened to Jesus and that's our our symbol for the divine. So, so

our our symbol for the divine. So, so that's why you know it's not trivial.

that's why you know it's not trivial. It's not it's not shallow. There's

It's not it's not shallow. There's something very very deep there. None of

something very very deep there. None of us is volunteering to hop onto a cross.

us is volunteering to hop onto a cross. I'm not volunteering to hop onto a

I'm not volunteering to hop onto a cross. So, so I I would say the the the

cross. So, so I I would say the the the challenge of your question is the

challenge of your question is the challenge that is probably a deep

challenge that is probably a deep spiritual challenge to to all of us to

spiritual challenge to to all of us to and I'll say to me personally, which is

and I'll say to me personally, which is to continue to grow up and be less and

to continue to grow up and be less and less identified with this headset and

less identified with this headset and more

more aware of my transcendent

aware of my transcendent being. Because ultimately, even on the

being. Because ultimately, even on the cross, I mean, perhaps the most profound

cross, I mean, perhaps the most profound thing I've ever seen in Christianity was

thing I've ever seen in Christianity was Jesus words on the cross saying,

Jesus words on the cross saying, "Father, forgive them. They don't know

"Father, forgive them. They don't know what they're doing." Right? That the

what they're doing." Right? That the heart of Christianity is right there.

heart of Christianity is right there. It's not like, "The heart of

It's not like, "The heart of Christianity is kill the disbelievers."

Christianity is kill the disbelievers." No, the heart of Christianity is the

No, the heart of Christianity is the disbelievers have pinned you on a cross.

disbelievers have pinned you on a cross. They're killing you in the worst

They're killing you in the worst possible way. And you show them love.

possible way. And you show them love. That's the heart of Christianity. You

That's the heart of Christianity. You show love to those who are in the

show love to those who are in the process of killing you in the worst way

process of killing you in the worst way they can think. That's the heart of

they can think. That's the heart of Christianity. Not killing disbelievers

Christianity. Not killing disbelievers or pushing away disbelievers or

or pushing away disbelievers or discounting them. That's the opposite.

discounting them. That's the opposite. So there's something very very that's

So there's something very very that's why I'm very very slow in answering your

why I'm very very slow in answering your question because this this gets to the

question because this this gets to the very deep heart of Christianity I think

very deep heart of Christianity I think and and in in all true spirituality that

and and in in all true spirituality that I don't think I truly understand. I I

I don't think I truly understand. I I see these pointers to it and I see that

see these pointers to it and I see that it's real and that your your question is

it's real and that your your question is pointing to one of the most profound and

pointing to one of the most profound and important things and I I have the

important things and I I have the feeling that my answer is

feeling that my answer is only ineffectually pointing part of the

only ineffectually pointing part of the way there. There's there's m much more

way there. There's there's m much more to it than I've been able to point to.

to it than I've been able to point to. I'm hazarding a guess at what the role

I'm hazarding a guess at what the role of um yeah I'm hazarding my own guess at

of um yeah I'm hazarding my own guess at what the role of pain and suffering

what the role of pain and suffering might be in such a

might be in such a in such a reality where consciousness is

in such a reality where consciousness is this transcendent thing that comes into

this transcendent thing that comes into manifests itself as these organisms and

manifests itself as these organisms and um

um I guess it kind of goes in part goes

I guess it kind of goes in part goes back to your idea of

I've only projected what I need to see through my headset in order to survive.

through my headset in order to survive. So if there are survival dynamics in

So if there are survival dynamics in play in my headset,

play in my headset, then one one element of survival is

then one one element of survival is suffering. Yes. Because

suffering. Yes. Because the fire is hot. So I put my hand in the

the fire is hot. So I put my hand in the fire, my hand gets burnt. So don't do

fire, my hand gets burnt. So don't do that again, Steve.

that again, Steve. Right.

Right. So if that is if if that is the nature

So if that is if if that is the nature of my headset, then there will need to

of my headset, then there will need to be cause and effect as it relates to

be cause and effect as it relates to things that will help me to survive and

things that will help me to survive and things that won't help me to survive.

things that won't help me to survive. Yes.

Yes. And so suffering might just be an input

And so suffering might just be an input or a stimulus in this

or a stimulus in this in this headset that helps me to

in this headset that helps me to survive,

survive, right?

right? And then I don't know the question

And then I don't know the question springs to mind is why does

springs to mind is why does consciousness care about survival? Why

consciousness care about survival? Why would this transcendent consciousness

would this transcendent consciousness Maybe that's not even a good question.

Maybe that's not even a good question. Maybe that's the wrong question, but

Maybe that's the wrong question, but why does why does it want to survive in

why does why does it want to survive in us? Why doesn't consciousness end? I

us? Why doesn't consciousness end? I mean,

I agree. One one one thing that I've heard from um one spiritual teacher in

heard from um one spiritual teacher in Echartullah which is interesting on the

Echartullah which is interesting on the sigi one of his his talks he he he said

sigi one of his his talks he he he said um

um let's pretend that we're humans.

let's pretend that we're humans. Oh that'll be fun

Oh that'll be fun and and let's play some dramas. Oh but

and and let's play some dramas. Oh but to have dramas I have to forget who I

to have dramas I have to forget who I am. Okay. So then let me completely

am. Okay. So then let me completely forget who I am. And then after a few

forget who I am. And then after a few hundred thousand years when I get tired

hundred thousand years when I get tired of it

of it then let's wake up. And I thought that

then let's wake up. And I thought that was

was a profound pointer that that

a profound pointer that that doesn't get the whole thing but it it's

doesn't get the whole thing but it it's an interesting pointer. I think there's

an interesting pointer. I think there's more to it than that but there's it's

more to it than that but there's it's more than just playing dramas. I think

more than just playing dramas. I think it's playing dramas

it's playing dramas to further explore who I am by knowing

to further explore who I am by knowing who I'm not. That may be part of it.

who I'm not. That may be part of it. Knowing who I am by knowing different

Knowing who I am by knowing different perspectives and knowing that as rich as

perspectives and knowing that as rich as this perspective is, I transcend that.

this perspective is, I transcend that. Someone commented on one of your recent

Someone commented on one of your recent videos saying, "Imagine being a

videos saying, "Imagine being a character in a book trying to understand

character in a book trying to understand your way out of that book into a higher

your way out of that book into a higher dimension."

dimension." Yes,

Yes, that's right. But but of course there

that's right. But but of course there there's that's that's a great great

there's that's that's a great great question. The the only thing I would say

question. The the only thing I would say is imagine being the author of the book

is imagine being the author of the book having written about a character because

having written about a character because I'm I'm I'm not just a character in the

I'm I'm I'm not just a character in the book. I'm the I'm the author who's put

book. I'm the I'm the author who's put the character in the book that then

the character in the book that then wakes up that that's identified with the

wakes up that that's identified with the character and then wakes up and realizes

character and then wakes up and realizes I'm not just the character. I I was

I'm not just the character. I I was writing the whole book. So So that that

writing the whole book. So So that that question is is good because it points to

question is is good because it points to a misconception. I'm not just a

a misconception. I'm not just a character in the book. I'm the writer of

character in the book. I'm the writer of the book and the Hoffman is just one of

the book and the Hoffman is just one of the characters in the book. And the

the characters in the book. And the writer of the book is

writer of the book is the one consciousness that when it

the one consciousness that when it really understands itself will love all

really understands itself will love all the characters equally.

the characters equally. How do you know we're not separate

How do you know we're not separate consciousnesses?

consciousnesses? I don't and that's an interesting by the

I don't and that's an interesting by the way I've got a mathematical model of

way I've got a mathematical model of consciousness and that's a whole other

consciousness and that's a whole other topic. I So you can either play the game

topic. I So you can either play the game here understanding how is physical world

here understanding how is physical world and consciousness related. How are those

and consciousness related. How are those two things related?

two things related? Most of my colleagues say physical world

Most of my colleagues say physical world is fundamental. Consciousness emerges

is fundamental. Consciousness emerges when right brain activity happens. So

when right brain activity happens. So so when neurons

so when neurons neurons fire in the right way and so

neurons fire in the right way and so forth for example

forth for example now as a scientist I always at these

now as a scientist I always at these conferences they know what I'm going to

conferences they know what I'm going to do to them. I say still you claim that

do to them. I say still you claim that conscious experiences come from

conscious experiences come from integrated information give me one give

integrated information give me one give me an experience and they can't

me an experience and they can't can they not say well look I'm looking

can they not say well look I'm looking around right now and that's coming from

around right now and that's coming from neurons in my brain in a physical

neurons in my brain in a physical substrate. Oh, well yeah, they'll say

substrate. Oh, well yeah, they'll say that and and but but they know what I'm

that and and but but they know what I'm asking. What they're ask what I'm asking

asking. What they're ask what I'm asking for is I say give me the specific

for is I say give me the specific pattern of neural activity that must be

pattern of neural activity that must be the taste of mint.

the taste of mint. Okay. Right. So you

Okay. Right. So you what must it must be the taste of spot

what must it must be the taste of spot the sequence of neurons or physical

the sequence of neurons or physical interactions that cause me to taste

interactions that cause me to taste mint.

mint. That's right.

That's right. So that's there's a big gap there

So that's there's a big gap there and then they have to explain

and then they have to explain why that particular pattern. So first

why that particular pattern. So first they have to identify the pattern this

they have to identify the pattern this pattern.

pattern. Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. With this say integrated information

With this say integrated information pattern must be the taste of mint.

pattern must be the taste of mint. By integration information pattern you

By integration information pattern you mean like this combination of things

mean like this combination of things coming together causes mint.

coming together causes mint. That's right.

That's right. They can't tell me the combination and

They can't tell me the combination and they can't tell me why that combination

they can't tell me why that combination causes mint.

causes mint. So it's basically cause and effect.

So it's basically cause and effect. They're saying they're saying something

They're saying they're saying something happen here and then they're seeing an

happen here and then they're seeing an outcome which is an experience but the

outcome which is an experience but the gap in between they can't explain.

gap in between they can't explain. That's right. And sometimes they'll say

That's right. And sometimes they'll say that the conscious experience just is

that the conscious experience just is the the dynamic whatever the physical

the the dynamic whatever the physical dynamics is. Okay.

dynamics is. Okay. But but but even then the the question

But but but even then the the question is why is this particular dynamics

is why is this particular dynamics associated with this conscious

associated with this conscious experience?

experience? Okay.

Okay. And and and for principled reasons. No

And and and for principled reasons. No in science we tolerate no BS.

in science we tolerate no BS. No BS. There's got to be a a concrete

No BS. There's got to be a a concrete reason. And that's why I I put a big

reason. And that's why I I put a big zero. I do this at the conferences

zero. I do this at the conferences knowing that I'm one of very very few

knowing that I'm one of very very few non-physicalists at the conference and I

non-physicalists at the conference and I know that the physicists are out there

know that the physicists are out there and I say you guys have got zero right.

and I say you guys have got zero right. They have a chance.

They have a chance. Floor is open. Tell me I'm wrong.

Floor is open. Tell me I'm wrong. Mhm.

Mhm. And I'm not. They know it. So start with

And I'm not. They know it. So start with consciousness. Yeah.

consciousness. Yeah. Now I'm playing a different game. I'm

Now I'm playing a different game. I'm saying all this physical stuff. So

saying all this physical stuff. So there's lots of physical stuff. There's

there's lots of physical stuff. There's space and time. Einstein's special

space and time. Einstein's special theory relative general relativity.

theory relative general relativity. There's the all the Bzons and firmians

There's the all the Bzons and firmians and the lepttons

and the lepttons bzzons and bzons lepttons and quirks of

bzzons and bzons lepttons and quirks of the standard model of of particle

the standard model of of particle physics.

physics. You're you're saying spiritual guys that

You're you're saying spiritual guys that you can start with a theory of

you can start with a theory of consciousness mathematical and you will

consciousness mathematical and you will give me all of space-time equations.

give me all of space-time equations. You'll give me quantum field theory. You

You'll give me quantum field theory. You will give me the standard model of

will give me the standard model of particle physics. How many points have

particle physics. How many points have you put on the board guys? What have you

you put on the board guys? What have you done?

Can you give me what pattern of conscious agent activity must be a

conscious agent activity must be a photon? What pattern pattern of

photon? What pattern pattern of conscious activity should be the

conscious activity should be the structure of spaceime or a bzon or a

structure of spaceime or a bzon or a lepton or a cork?

lepton or a cork? No points on the board. So, so you can

No points on the board. So, so you can you can look at that and go from that

you can look at that and go from that perspective it's equal. There's no

perspective it's equal. There's no points on the board on either either

points on the board on either either team. So when I'm I've got a theory that

team. So when I'm I've got a theory that I call conscious agent network theory

I call conscious agent network theory and I'm working on this with um Chayon

and I'm working on this with um Chayon Pash.

Pash. How long have you been working on it?

How long have you been working on it? You've got a book called observer

You've got a book called observer mechanics there that was published in

mechanics there that was published in 1989. So I've been on this for 40 years

1989. So I've been on this for 40 years about 40 years.

about 40 years. What do you think you're going to find

What do you think you're going to find when you're what do you think you're

when you're what do you think you're going to prove with your theory of

going to prove with your theory of consciousness?

consciousness? I think we can put some points on the

I think we can put some points on the board in the following. I think we can

board in the following. I think we can start with the theory of conscious

start with the theory of conscious agents. I just gave presented a talk um

agents. I just gave presented a talk um Friday and we we proposed what light is.

Friday and we we proposed what light is. We proposed why the speed of light is

We proposed why the speed of light is the same in all inertial frames.

the same in all inertial frames. What does this mean? You got to simplify

What does this mean? You got to simplify this for my 16-year-old brain.

this for my 16-year-old brain. Right. Right. Right. So, so if I'm on a

Right. Right. Right. So, so if I'm on a train and the train's going 50 miles an

train and the train's going 50 miles an hour and I throw a ball and I can throw

hour and I throw a ball and I can throw it maybe 20 miles an hour, then in some

it maybe 20 miles an hour, then in some sense the ball is going 70 miles an

sense the ball is going 70 miles an hour, right? Mhm.

hour, right? Mhm. Right. And that's the way things

Right. And that's the way things normally work. But if I have a

normally work. But if I have a flashlight

flashlight and I'm

and I'm and I flash this the light is going at

and I flash this the light is going at the speed of light which is about

the speed of light which is about 186,282

186,282 miles per second.

miles per second. It's pretty fast.

It's pretty fast. If I got get on the train and have the

If I got get on the train and have the train like I take my flashlight go like

train like I take my flashlight go like half the speed of light on the train. So

half the speed of light on the train. So I'm going really fast. This is a fast

I'm going really fast. This is a fast train. Mhm.

train. Mhm. And I turn on my light and I'm I'm I'm

And I turn on my light and I'm I'm I'm here outside. I'm looking at the train

here outside. I'm looking at the train going at half the speed of light and

going at half the speed of light and someone's turning the flashlight on. So

someone's turning the flashlight on. So the the light is going at the speed of

the the light is going at the speed of light. How fast is that light beam going

light. How fast is that light beam going to look to me? Cuz I'm standing on the

to look to me? Cuz I'm standing on the site and the train is already going half

site and the train is already going half the speed of light. So how fast is that

the speed of light. So how fast is that light beam going to go?

light beam going to go? The speed of light plus half the speed

The speed of light plus half the speed of light.

of light. That's what we would mostly think,

That's what we would mostly think, right? And it turns out no, it goes the

right? And it turns out no, it goes the speed of light. If you have mass

speed of light. If you have mass and you're not moving at the speed of

and you're not moving at the speed of light and we try to accelerate you to

light and we try to accelerate you to get to the speed of light, you'll never

get to the speed of light, you'll never get there. That there's a speed limit.

get there. That there's a speed limit. You can't get there. So that's really

You can't get there. So that's really counterintuitive, right? But Einstein

counterintuitive, right? But Einstein said, "This is my fundamental hypothesis

said, "This is my fundamental hypothesis on which I'm going to build my theory of

on which I'm going to build my theory of space and time is that light, no matter

space and time is that light, no matter how fast you're moving, always moves

how fast you're moving, always moves away from you at the speed of light."

away from you at the speed of light." And also that there's no special

And also that there's no special observer. There's no what what we call

observer. There's no what what we call no special inertial frame but no no

no special inertial frame but no no special frame of reference in which to

special frame of reference in which to look at things all all frames are are

look at things all all frames are are equivalent.

equivalent. So so the question is how do I start

So so the question is how do I start with a theory of conscious agents

with a theory of conscious agents which is that's a good question. So what

which is that's a good question. So what is a conscious agent? I I'll say it's

is a conscious agent? I I'll say it's mathematical and I'll only talk about

mathematical and I'll only talk about one aspect of it. It's it's complicated.

one aspect of it. It's it's complicated. So I'll talk about only an essential one

So I'll talk about only an essential one essential part of it and that is if you

essential part of it and that is if you are conscious you have experiences like

are conscious you have experiences like I have I can experience keep it real

I have I can experience keep it real simple I can experience colors red green

simple I can experience colors red green blue

blue mhm keep it very very simple so I

mhm keep it very very simple so I imagine a very very simple conscious

imagine a very very simple conscious agent and what it can do is experience

agent and what it can do is experience three colors red green and blue that's

three colors red green and blue that's all it can do

all it can do like me

like me yeah of course you have a much richer

yeah of course you have a much richer set of conscious experiences but but you

set of conscious experiences but but you include that kind of observer right

include that kind of observer right because you can do red green and blue

because you can do red green and blue and Now I'll talk about another observer

and Now I'll talk about another observer that only sees red and green.

that only sees red and green. Yeah.

Yeah. And now you don't just see one color.

And now you don't just see one color. You see a color for a little bit and

You see a color for a little bit and then you see another color. Like so I

then you see another color. Like so I see red for a while, then I see green

see red for a while, then I see green and then I see blue and I maybe go back

and then I see blue and I maybe go back to red or whatever. So there's going to

to red or whatever. So there's going to be this sequence of colors that I see.

be this sequence of colors that I see. And maybe the best I can say is that if

And maybe the best I can say is that if if I see green right now, then it's a

if I see green right now, then it's a 20% chance that I'll see red next and

20% chance that I'll see red next and 80% chance that I'll see blue next. I

80% chance that I'll see blue next. I can I can write down probabilities.

can I can write down probabilities. Well, so that that's pretty simple,

Well, so that that's pretty simple, right? There's colors,

right? There's colors, experiences, and then there's

experiences, and then there's probabilities of what sequence you if I

probabilities of what sequence you if I see this experience, what my next

see this experience, what my next experience will be. And I'm using C in a

experience will be. And I'm using C in a general term, right? It could be hearing

general term, right? It could be hearing or smelling or whatever.

or smelling or whatever. How do you capture that mathematically?

How do you capture that mathematically? There's something called a markov

There's something called a markov kernel, a mark of matrix that just says

kernel, a mark of matrix that just says basically it gives you all the numbers,

basically it gives you all the numbers, the first row of numbers, and says if I

the first row of numbers, and says if I see red now, what's the probability that

see red now, what's the probability that I'll see red next? Mhm.

I'll see red next? Mhm. What's the probability I'll see green

What's the probability I'll see green next? What's the probability I'll see

next? What's the probability I'll see blue next? So, you just write the

blue next? So, you just write the numbers out. Maybe it's 0 2 that I'll

numbers out. Maybe it's 0 2 that I'll see red again, point four that I'll see

see red again, point four that I'll see green, and then um point4 that I'll see

green, and then um point4 that I'll see uh blue again. So, so and then the next

uh blue again. So, so and then the next color, you know, I'll have another row

color, you know, I'll have another row for if if I'm now seeing green, what's

for if if I'm now seeing green, what's probably I'll see red, green, and blue.

probably I'll see red, green, and blue. And then finally, blue was probably I'll

And then finally, blue was probably I'll go to red, green, and blue. So, I need

go to red, green, and blue. So, I need nine numbers. That's only for three

nine numbers. That's only for three colors. I need nine numbers to talk

colors. I need nine numbers to talk about all the possibilities and then

about all the possibilities and then I'll I'll just have a counter as well.

I'll I'll just have a counter as well. So every time I see a new color, I'll

So every time I see a new color, I'll just have a little counter. So I so see

just have a little counter. So I so see red. Now that's one. Oh, now I see

red. Now that's one. Oh, now I see green. That's two. Now I see green

green. That's two. Now I see green again. I So that's three. So So I'm

again. I So that's three. So So I'm counting the the colors, the

counting the the colors, the experiences. That's that's all I'm going

experiences. That's that's all I'm going to talk about. That's all I have. The

to talk about. That's all I have. The question is if I start with just that

question is if I start with just that notion of an observer, it has colors and

notion of an observer, it has colors and a matrix of probabilities of I see this

a matrix of probabilities of I see this color, I can see another color. What's

color, I can see another color. What's what's the probability? And every time I

what's the probability? And every time I see a new color, I get uh a counter

see a new color, I get uh a counter incrementing. That's all I'm going to

incrementing. That's all I'm going to start with. Can I get Einstein's Can I

start with. Can I get Einstein's Can I get that the speed of light is the same

get that the speed of light is the same in all inertial frames that the if I'm

in all inertial frames that the if I'm on a train and I flash the speed flash a

on a train and I flash the speed flash a light bulb flash of light that it will

light bulb flash of light that it will go at the speed of light even for

go at the speed of light even for someone um who's on the train going at

someone um who's on the train going at half the speed of light and I discovered

half the speed of light and I discovered just in the last three or four months

just in the last three or four months that the answer is yes I can do it and

that the answer is yes I can do it and that's what I presented last Friday at

that's what I presented last Friday at at this conference. So what does this

at this conference. So what does this mean about the nature of consciousness?

mean about the nature of consciousness? And

And it means that

it means that starting with a theory of consciousness

starting with a theory of consciousness outside of spaceime, I can actually give

outside of spaceime, I can actually give you with mathematical precision the

you with mathematical precision the structure of spacetime.

structure of spacetime. Which means that your belief is

Which means that your belief is we're starting to

we're starting to space and time and everything I see and

space and time and everything I see and experience actually comes from

experience actually comes from consciousness itself. So consciousness

consciousness itself. So consciousness itself is the source of everything.

itself is the source of everything. Everything that you That's right. So

Everything that you That's right. So earlier in our

earlier in our consciousness didn't come from my brain.

consciousness didn't come from my brain. That's right. My brain came from my

That's right. My brain came from my consciousness.

consciousness. That's exactly right. That that that's

That's exactly right. That that that's exactly what I'm saying. And we've

exactly what I'm saying. And we've talked about the headset.

talked about the headset. Yeah.

Yeah. What I'm doing is I'm building the

What I'm doing is I'm building the headset. I'm saying here's the here's

headset. I'm saying here's the here's the conscious agents, their dynamics,

the conscious agents, their dynamics, and I'm now starting to build the

and I'm now starting to build the space-time headset.

space-time headset. Is there a concern that believing in

Is there a concern that believing in these things can make one go mad? I

these things can make one go mad? I think sometimes think that uh thinking

think sometimes think that uh thinking very deeply about who we are, why we're

very deeply about who we are, why we're here, how we got here, sometimes it

here, how we got here, sometimes it makes me I don't know like I lose a bit

makes me I don't know like I lose a bit of my orientation and I get a little bit

of my orientation and I get a little bit of a wobble like when I've had these

of a wobble like when I've had these conversations about the simulation

conversations about the simulation theory and this being a big video game

theory and this being a big video game and such I'm like well it kind of shakes

and such I'm like well it kind of shakes everything you know and these stories

everything you know and these stories that we've constructed our lives on give

that we've constructed our lives on give us they anchor us and they orientate us

us they anchor us and they orientate us and they they give our life meaning so

and they they give our life meaning so if it's not true then I lose the meaning

if it's not true then I lose the meaning of my life and I I worry if I risk going

of my life and I I worry if I risk going bonkers.

bonkers. Well, I I certainly empathize with that

Well, I I certainly empathize with that and that's also what happens also in the

and that's also what happens also in the meditation process is also leads me to

meditation process is also leads me to have to face all sorts of emotional

have to face all sorts of emotional stuff. My my deep belief that I'm just

stuff. My my deep belief that I'm just my avatar and letting go of that is like

my avatar and letting go of that is like a death and it's it's very very painful.

a death and it's it's very very painful. So for me the meditation process is not

So for me the meditation process is not all love, joy and peace. A lot of it is

all love, joy and peace. A lot of it is deep deep

deep deep tough emotions as I let go of what I

tough emotions as I let go of what I thought was myself. And that's it's it's

thought was myself. And that's it's it's a kind of a it's a death of an illusion,

a kind of a it's a death of an illusion, but it feels like a real death to me.

but it feels like a real death to me. But now, here's the positive side.

But now, here's the positive side. Here's the upside. I'm proposing that

Here's the upside. I'm proposing that science

science is got the tools, if we assume

is got the tools, if we assume consciousness is fundamental, to step

consciousness is fundamental, to step entirely outside of spacetime and do

entirely outside of spacetime and do serious mathematics

serious mathematics and show how spacetime is built as a

and show how spacetime is built as a headset.

headset. And this means I'm we're opening up a

And this means I'm we're opening up a realm of new technologies that are going

realm of new technologies that are going to make everything that we've done in in

to make everything that we've done in in science and technology so far seem

science and technology so far seem trivial and and the and here's the

trivial and and the and here's the here's the reason. Suppose you're a

here's the reason. Suppose you're a wizard in Grand Theft Auto and you know

wizard in Grand Theft Auto and you know how to use all the tools in Grand Theft

how to use all the tools in Grand Theft Auto. That's fantastic. It's it's really

Auto. That's fantastic. It's it's really good. You can drive your car from A to B

good. You can drive your car from A to B faster than anybody can do.

faster than anybody can do. But now, if you're the software engineer

But now, if you're the software engineer who knows how Grand Theft Auto has been

who knows how Grand Theft Auto has been because you wrote the code, you know it.

because you wrote the code, you know it. You can do miracles. You can take the

You can do miracles. You can take the wizard's car and take the air out of

wizard's car and take the air out of their tire just like that. You can take

their tire just like that. You can take the gas out of their tank. You can take

the gas out of their tank. You can take their car and move it from A to B

their car and move it from A to B instantly. Not through Grand Theft Auto.

instantly. Not through Grand Theft Auto. You can move it there instantly because

You can move it there instantly because you got the code outside.

you got the code outside. What I'm saying is

What I'm saying is this is real. I started now to really

this is real. I started now to really believe this. When I could get Einstein

believe this. When I could get Einstein spacetime coming out of this, I got

spacetime coming out of this, I got light and I think I've got an electron.

light and I think I've got an electron. Now, I think we're reverse engineering

Now, I think we're reverse engineering the headset and the technologies that

the headset and the technologies that are about to come out of this will make

are about to come out of this will make everything else seem like firecrackers

everything else seem like firecrackers because we're now getting to a deeper

because we're now getting to a deeper layer outside of the headset. We're not

layer outside of the headset. We're not we're not wizards inside the headset.

we're not wizards inside the headset. We're the software engineers that are

We're the software engineers that are making the headset and now we can play.

making the headset and now we can play. So, for example, right now the nearest

So, for example, right now the nearest galaxy,

galaxy, the Andromeda galaxy, it's 2.4 million

the Andromeda galaxy, it's 2.4 million lighty years away. If you hopped on a

lighty years away. If you hopped on a light on a spaceship and probably to

light on a spaceship and probably to send your offspring, it would take I

send your offspring, it would take I don't know how many gen thousands of

don't know how many gen thousands of generations, I would guess, to get

generations, I would guess, to get there, then that's the closest that's

there, then that's the closest that's the closest galaxy. The the the universe

the closest galaxy. The the the universe is much much bigger than that. That

is much much bigger than that. That that's just our little neighborhood.

that's just our little neighborhood. It's not feasible. We're not gonna have

It's not feasible. We're not gonna have we're not going to be able to travel

we're not going to be able to travel with our current technologies inside

with our current technologies inside travel inside spaceime to Andromeda is

travel inside spaceime to Andromeda is is not feasible for the foreseeable

is not feasible for the foreseeable future. What if we don't have to go

future. What if we don't have to go through spaceime? What if spaceime is

through spaceime? What if spaceime is just a headset? It really is just a

just a headset? It really is just a headset and we don't have to go 2.4

headset and we don't have to go 2.4 million lighty years to get there. We

million lighty years to get there. We learn the code outside of spaceime and

learn the code outside of spaceime and we can just change the code. Just like

we can just change the code. Just like the Grand Theft, the Grand Theft Auto in

the Grand Theft, the Grand Theft Auto in Grand Theft Auto, the car has to drive

Grand Theft Auto, the car has to drive through the roads to get from A to B.

through the roads to get from A to B. But not if you look at the code. In the

But not if you look at the code. In the code, I just need to change the value of

code, I just need to change the value of a register and all of a sudden the

a register and all of a sudden the position of the car is now at B. It was

position of the car is now at B. It was at A and I put it at B.

at A and I put it at B. Is this what time travel?

Is this what time travel? This this would be like this would

This this would be like this would appear like immediate time travel or

appear like immediate time travel or immediate immediate space travel. Is

immediate immediate space travel. Is there anything within the laws of

there anything within the laws of physics that tells you that this is

physics that tells you that this is impossible?

impossible? It's impossible inside spacetime. If if

It's impossible inside spacetime. If if you only use So inside spacetime, it's

you only use So inside spacetime, it's impossible.

impossible. But outside of what we know about

But outside of what we know about spaceime,

spaceime, a theory that's outside of spaceime that

a theory that's outside of spaceime that properly contains

properly contains spaceime as a projection of the theory

spaceime as a projection of the theory allows us to then build technologies

allows us to then build technologies that aren't restricted to spaceime. So,

that aren't restricted to spaceime. So, do you think we're getting closer to

do you think we're getting closer to being able to do edit the code of

being able to do edit the code of this experience so that we can do things

this experience so that we can do things we never thought were possible and that

we never thought were possible and that things that sit outside of what we know

things that sit outside of what we know know within the laws of physics?

know within the laws of physics? That's exactly what I'm working on right

That's exactly what I'm working on right now. That's that's that is my research

now. That's that's that is my research project right now. That's what I'm

project right now. That's what I'm doing.

doing. What are you hoping to do with this

What are you hoping to do with this research? And do you think about the

research? And do you think about the consequences of it?

consequences of it? I do. Uh so what first what I'm hoping

I do. Uh so what first what I'm hoping to do with the research I'm I'm what I'm

to do with the research I'm I'm what I'm hoping to show is that I can get all of

hoping to show is that I can get all of quantum field theory, all of special and

quantum field theory, all of special and general relativity, all of standard

general relativity, all of standard model of particle physics from this

model of particle physics from this theory of conscious agents outside of

theory of conscious agents outside of spaceime that we'll be able to explain

spaceime that we'll be able to explain all of the laws that that we're that we

all of the laws that that we're that we see and then show that space-time

see and then show that space-time theories are in fact a very tiny

theories are in fact a very tiny projection of the much more

projection of the much more informationally rich dynamics of

informationally rich dynamics of conscious agents.

conscious agents. I've built companies from scratch and

I've built companies from scratch and backed many more. And there's a blind

backed many more. And there's a blind spot that I keep seeing in early stage

spot that I keep seeing in early stage founders. They spend very little time

founders. They spend very little time thinking about HR. And it's not because

thinking about HR. And it's not because they're reckless or they don't care.

they're reckless or they don't care. It's because they're obsessed with

It's because they're obsessed with building their companies. And I can't

building their companies. And I can't fault them for that. At that stage,

fault them for that. At that stage, you're thinking about the product, how

you're thinking about the product, how to attract new customers, how to grow

to attract new customers, how to grow your team, really how to survive. And HR

your team, really how to survive. And HR slips down the list because it doesn't

slips down the list because it doesn't feel urgent, but sooner or later, it is.

feel urgent, but sooner or later, it is. And when things get messy, tools like

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just.com. You know, whenever someone talks about

You know, whenever someone talks about editing genes, right, there's crisper

editing genes, right, there's crisper DNA technology that allows you to edit

DNA technology that allows you to edit genes or there's other technologies that

genes or there's other technologies that people talk about that allow you to

people talk about that allow you to they're talking about putting, you know,

they're talking about putting, you know, our memories on hard drives and stuff

our memories on hard drives and stuff like that. People get quite precious

like that. People get quite precious with the idea of like playing with the

with the idea of like playing with the nature of reality too much because some

nature of reality too much because some people might suffer. And even in your

people might suffer. And even in your perception of what the world is,

perception of what the world is, if we're all one consciousness, it it

if we're all one consciousness, it it becomes a slightly different

becomes a slightly different conversation. But I guess the question

conversation. But I guess the question I'm asking is if we were able to play

I'm asking is if we were able to play with the software of this thing that

with the software of this thing that we're all experiencing right now and do

we're all experiencing right now and do things that sit outside the laws of

things that sit outside the laws of physics, is there a question of morality

physics, is there a question of morality of like is that the right thing to do,

of like is that the right thing to do, will people suffer or if this is all

will people suffer or if this is all just code? Does is that just like a

just code? Does is that just like a pointless question?

pointless question? Well, no. I think it's it's it's a very

Well, no. I think it's it's it's a very important question and and I've

important question and and I've like is that the wrong thing to do?

like is that the wrong thing to do? It's like it's it's like Pandora's box,

It's like it's it's like Pandora's box, right? Are we opening Pandora's box? All

right? Are we opening Pandora's box? All sorts of nasty surprises that could come

sorts of nasty surprises that could come out of the box once we open Go Beyond

out of the box once we open Go Beyond Spacetime.

Spacetime. Like, who gets to open the box? If you

Like, who gets to open the box? If you get to open the box,

get to open the box, that's that's what that's what I think

that's that's what that's what I think I'm doing. I I I have now the talk I

I'm doing. I I I have now the talk I gave on Friday was saying, here's the

gave on Friday was saying, here's the first peak inside Pandora's box.

first peak inside Pandora's box. But then you could become God as far as

But then you could become God as far as we're all concerned because if you have

we're all concerned because if you have that power to play with the code,

that power to play with the code, well, it' be only the next level of God,

well, it' be only the next level of God, right? So,

right? So, as I've said, my theory is just a

as I've said, my theory is just a theory. And so, it's not the truth. It's

theory. And so, it's not the truth. It's just but it's it's more comprehensive

just but it's it's more comprehensive than the space-time theory. And so,

than the space-time theory. And so, because I have a more comprehensive

because I have a more comprehensive theory, I can do new new technologies

theory, I can do new new technologies that you couldn't do. So, so I I so I'm

that you couldn't do. So, so I I so I'm not God, but I I'm outside of the limits

not God, but I I'm outside of the limits of spaceime. So I can give you new

of spaceime. So I can give you new technologies. If I if I can show how

technologies. If I if I can show how spacetime arises entirely outside of

spacetime arises entirely outside of from this deeper theory, then if I'm

from this deeper theory, then if I'm right

right and I'm mathematically precise, that

and I'm mathematically precise, that means I have the tools to prove that I'm

means I have the tools to prove that I'm right. That means I can make

right. That means I can make technologies that will that will be

technologies that will that will be miraculous from within the space. Think

miraculous from within the space. Think about the uh atomic bomb and how the

about the uh atomic bomb and how the first nation to figure out that there

first nation to figure out that there was new possibilities within technology

was new possibilities within technology and because they had discoveries within

and because they had discoveries within physics basically won the war. They were

physics basically won the war. They were able to

able to right

right control every country um they became

control every country um they became effectively the god because they could

effectively the god because they could wipe anybody out within an instance.

wipe anybody out within an instance. Right.

Right. It's like an analogy for how reimagining

It's like an analogy for how reimagining physics creates new possibilities in

physics creates new possibilities in technology.

technology. That's right. And and this is even I

That's right. And and this is even I bigger than that because nuclear bombs

bigger than that because nuclear bombs will be like firecrackers compared to

will be like firecrackers compared to what you can do with with a technology

what you can do with with a technology that's utterly outside of space and

that's utterly outside of space and time.

time. You could do anything like that. You

You could do anything like that. You could live forever, but that's not even

could live forever, but that's not even something that would really matter,

something that would really matter, right? Once you realize it's just a

right? Once you realize it's just a game, but but you could make you could

game, but but you could make you could give yourself extra time as much as you

give yourself extra time as much as you wanted in this. So it's the moral

wanted in this. So it's the moral question is a very very interesting one.

question is a very very interesting one. It's not it's not to be taken lightly.

It's not it's not to be taken lightly. Um either way and and ultimately it may

Um either way and and ultimately it may be very related to the question you

be very related to the question you asked earlier which is about the nature

asked earlier which is about the nature of why did the the one if there is a one

of why did the the one if there is a one allow all this kind of horrible pain and

allow all this kind of horrible pain and and and so forth. So I have a sense and

and and so forth. So I have a sense and I can't defend it that

I can't defend it that all is well. That even with the

all is well. That even with the technologies, even if the technologies

technologies, even if the technologies are

are really far more powerful than anything

really far more powerful than anything we've seen before, nothing can actually

we've seen before, nothing can actually hurt the reality of the one.

hurt the reality of the one. And all of the headsets are just

And all of the headsets are just headsets. They're taken off anyway by

headsets. They're taken off anyway by the one. They're just tried on and let

the one. They're just tried on and let go. Apparently, the one even without all

go. Apparently, the one even without all this technology has already, you know,

this technology has already, you know, put Jesus on the cross. If if that story

put Jesus on the cross. If if that story about the one is correct, then it's

about the one is correct, then it's given a thumbs up for choosing to do

given a thumbs up for choosing to do that because that, you know, it it did

that because that, you know, it it did it

it was created cancer and the Holocaust and

was created cancer and the Holocaust and that's right. So

that's right. So but the one's relationship with the pain

but the one's relationship with the pain of its the things the organisms it's

of its the things the organisms it's create is different to the perception of

create is different to the perception of pain in the organism itself potentially.

pain in the organism itself potentially. So like I the hate pain, but maybe the

So like I the hate pain, but maybe the one the one consciousness that we all

one the one consciousness that we all share that we all returned to and came

share that we all returned to and came from

from might see it as a useful signal or might

might see it as a useful signal or might not be subjectively bothered by it

not be subjectively bothered by it because it's choosing to

because it's choosing to to do that

to do that to do that. I agree with you. That seems

to do that. I agree with you. That seems to be a reasonable kind of conclusion.

to be a reasonable kind of conclusion. And and in meditative practice, often

And and in meditative practice, often what you find is

what you find is and and I always risk pretending that

and and I always risk pretending that I'm further along than I'm not. So I'll

I'm further along than I'm not. So I'll just say I'm I'm a neophite. But he but

just say I'm I'm a neophite. But he but so I'll talk about what I've heard from

so I'll talk about what I've heard from other more advanced people that they

other more advanced people that they what was a deep pain emotional pain for

what was a deep pain emotional pain for example when they stare at it and really

example when they stare at it and really accept it it dissolves.

So now I'm speaking over my head but but from people that I have no reason to

from people that I have no reason to disbelieve.

disbelieve. I read a comment on your video from a

I read a comment on your video from a guy that wrote this. He wrote, "I'm a

guy that wrote this. He wrote, "I'm a schizophrenic. I do Door Dash for some

schizophrenic. I do Door Dash for some extra money. And one night, I arrived

extra money. And one night, I arrived and walked to the door. I placed the

and walked to the door. I placed the food down on the door and I took a

food down on the door and I took a picture. I got in my car and I drove

picture. I got in my car and I drove away. And 30 minutes later, the customer

away. And 30 minutes later, the customer called me and asked me where the food

called me and asked me where the food was and I I told him exactly where it

was and I I told him exactly where it was. I remember taking the picture on

was. I remember taking the picture on his doorstep. So, he took it up with

his doorstep. So, he took it up with Door Dash directly. Sometime later, I

Door Dash directly. Sometime later, I opened my back door and I saw his order

opened my back door and I saw his order on my back door. I was so confused why

on my back door. I was so confused why it was there. I remembered everything

it was there. I remembered everything about going there and taking the

about going there and taking the picture.

picture. He said I was never there on his

He said I was never there on his cameras. Apparently, I hallucinated the

cameras. Apparently, I hallucinated the whole delivery.

whole delivery. I was there, but must have never left

I was there, but must have never left the car or even drove up.

the car or even drove up. What was I doing then? Was I staring

What was I doing then? Was I staring blankly at the windshield with my eyes

blankly at the windshield with my eyes glazed over? I called him and

glazed over? I called him and apologized, but he but he already got

apologized, but he but he already got his refund. I felt so terrible. I'm on

his refund. I felt so terrible. I'm on medication and nothing works. It just

medication and nothing works. It just goes to show how easily some misfirings

goes to show how easily some misfirings in the brain can completely alter your

in the brain can completely alter your sense of reality, but it also poses

sense of reality, but it also poses deeper questions about reality. Thought

deeper questions about reality. Thought it was an interesting um very

it was an interesting um very interesting point, but also just it also

interesting point, but also just it also speaks to when we talk about people that

speaks to when we talk about people that have various mental illnesses like

have various mental illnesses like schizophrenia that are experiencing the

schizophrenia that are experiencing the world entirely differently. Um it raises

world entirely differently. Um it raises big questions about what consciousness

big questions about what consciousness is again.

is again. Absolutely. And and someone might take

Absolutely. And and someone might take that example and say, "Doesn't that show

that example and say, "Doesn't that show that brain activity is causing

that brain activity is causing consciousness?" And you get the wrong

consciousness?" And you get the wrong brain activity. Then you get these false

brain activity. Then you get these false experiences and you get these illusions.

experiences and you get these illusions. So the a lot of people take this as a as

So the a lot of people take this as a as a a victory point for the physicalist

a a victory point for the physicalist point of view. But there's another point

point of view. But there's another point of view and that is think think about

of view and that is think think about the experiences that you have when

the experiences that you have when you're dreaming. They can be very very

you're dreaming. They can be very very vivid

vivid and and you're in a dream you are denovo

and and you're in a dream you are denovo creating that reality that that's not a

creating that reality that that's not a reality that's that's there in front of

reality that's that's there in front of you. You're you're creating that

you. You're you're creating that reality. So we know that you have the

reality. So we know that you have the you have the ability to

you have the ability to project a reality a very compelling

project a reality a very compelling reality. All of us do without

reality. All of us do without schizophrenia. We do it every night in

schizophrenia. We do it every night in our in our dreams. So no surprise that

our in our dreams. So no surprise that that we do that. And the way I I view it

that we do that. And the way I I view it is that we um

is that we um it it's consciousness that's making this

it it's consciousness that's making this particular headset. And it's

particular headset. And it's consciousness that uses the headset in

consciousness that uses the headset in dreams to to make the the realities we

dreams to to make the the realities we see in the dreams. And it's

see in the dreams. And it's consciousness that outside of spaceime

consciousness that outside of spaceime that also creates what we call the real

that also creates what we call the real reality when when we're not dreaming.

reality when when we're not dreaming. And if you construct the headset in

And if you construct the headset in certain ways, then you can get the

certain ways, then you can get the dreaming stuff mechanism, for example,

dreaming stuff mechanism, for example, interfering with the what you'd call the

interfering with the what you'd call the waking mechanism. and you could you know

waking mechanism. and you could you know effectively so I'm not saying

effectively so I'm not saying schizophrenic is is dreaming but I'm

schizophrenic is is dreaming but I'm saying I'm just giving this as an

saying I'm just giving this as an example of the kind of thing that could

example of the kind of thing that could be I'm not giving an diagnosis of this

be I'm not giving an diagnosis of this particular person

particular person I'm about to uh leave this chair as are

I'm about to uh leave this chair as are you and I'm going to go back to my life

you and I'm going to go back to my life y

y um where I'm building businesses I've

um where I'm building businesses I've got a girlfriend I've got a team I've

got a girlfriend I've got a team I've got plans for the future I have all of

got plans for the future I have all of these things

these things my listeners they're sat at home they're

my listeners they're sat at home they're on the in a taxi on a plane train

on the in a taxi on a plane train walking in a gym wherever they might be

walking in a gym wherever they might be right now. And I I imagine that they're

right now. And I I imagine that they're also looking for a conclusion here, a

also looking for a conclusion here, a conclusive point of what all this means

conclusive point of what all this means for me in my life and the things I had

for me in my life and the things I had planned and

planned and how I should show up and treat people

how I should show up and treat people and and act. Can you give me the

and and act. Can you give me the conclusive point that all of this

conclusive point that all of this teaches you and us about how we should

teaches you and us about how we should live our lives going forward if

live our lives going forward if everything that you've said about the

everything that you've said about the nature of reality is accurate?

nature of reality is accurate? Yeah. In a nutshell, I would say

Yeah. In a nutshell, I would say the critical thing practically is love

the critical thing practically is love your neighbor as yourself because your

your neighbor as yourself because your neighbor is yourself.

And second, reality is far more interesting

reality is far more interesting and exciting than you could ever

and exciting than you could ever imagine.

imagine. So never think that you know everything.

So never think that you know everything. Recognize that the moment you think you

Recognize that the moment you think you know everything, that's the moment that

know everything, that's the moment that you're missing

you're missing the astonishing reality that you're a

the astonishing reality that you're a part of. So, always have a childlike

part of. So, always have a childlike curiosity. Always recognize that there's

curiosity. Always recognize that there's infinitely more than you've ever

infinitely more than you've ever imagined so far. And that infinitely

imagined so far. And that infinitely more is you.

more is you. And on a point of removing some of the

And on a point of removing some of the stress and suffering from my life,

I think of course um I first some humble pie is required. I

I first some humble pie is required. I have stress and suffering. So I am not

have stress and suffering. So I am not speaking as someone who has transcended

speaking as someone who has transcended stress and suffering. So I speak as

stress and suffering. So I speak as another fellow person with stress and

another fellow person with stress and suffering that is still dealing with it

suffering that is still dealing with it on a daily basis.

on a daily basis. Given that the humble pie then I I will

Given that the humble pie then I I will say this

I think a lot of and I'll make it personal. I think a lot of my problems

personal. I think a lot of my problems my stress a lot of my suffering is

my stress a lot of my suffering is because I believe illusions

because I believe illusions to the extent that I believe that I need

to the extent that I believe that I need to become something at all

to become something at all need to be better than I am in any way.

need to be better than I am in any way. need to prove anything to anybody else.

need to prove anything to anybody else. That's an illusion.

That's an illusion. I'm already the infinite. I don't need

I'm already the infinite. I don't need to prove anything. I'm making everything

to prove anything. I'm making everything is already. So I don't need to get

is already. So I don't need to get anywhere. I don't need to accomplish

anywhere. I don't need to accomplish anything. I don't need to succeed at

anything. I don't need to succeed at anything to become what I need to

anything to become what I need to become. I'm already that. So I don't So

become. I'm already that. So I don't So the suffering comes from me forgetting

the suffering comes from me forgetting who I am. I don't need to I don't

who I am. I don't need to I don't actually need to impress anybody,

actually need to impress anybody, accomplish anything because everything

accomplish anything because everything that I'm saying I'm already making this

that I'm saying I'm already making this all up. This is already me. I've already

all up. This is already me. I've already done all this. What more do I need to

done all this. What more do I need to do?

do? I am transcendent.

I am transcendent. I I am I'm completely transcendent of

I I am I'm completely transcendent of this thing. And to the my suffering is

this thing. And to the my suffering is not recognizing that my suffering is

not recognizing that my suffering is entirely

entirely being caught in my avatar. This is just

being caught in my avatar. This is just my avatar. It's not me. So my suffering

my avatar. It's not me. So my suffering is because I made this avatar. I let

is because I made this avatar. I let myself on purpose be identified with the

myself on purpose be identified with the avatar knowing that I would be suffering

avatar knowing that I would be suffering because of that and and knowing that I

because of that and and knowing that I needed to wake up. So I'm suffering

needed to wake up. So I'm suffering because I'm identified with the avatar.

because I'm identified with the avatar. But I put myself in that place because I

But I put myself in that place because I really wanted to look at the world

really wanted to look at the world through this avatar. That's why I'm

through this avatar. That's why I'm suffering. But eventually I wake up and

suffering. But eventually I wake up and I look and I see the avatar for for what

I look and I see the avatar for for what it is. And I realized that everything I

it is. And I realized that everything I was trying to do to prove that I was

was trying to do to prove that I was worthwhile and I was better than you or

worthwhile and I was better than you or not not as bad as you think I am or

not not as bad as you think I am or things like that. All that was was just,

things like that. All that was was just, you know, all the pain and suffering was

you know, all the pain and suffering was because of an illusion. But but I needed

because of an illusion. But but I needed to do that. I needed to look at myself

to do that. I needed to look at myself from that perspective for a while in

from that perspective for a while in part to find out who I am by finding out

part to find out who I am by finding out who I'm not. I'm not that just that

who I'm not. I'm not that just that avatar.

avatar. Do you find yourself toggling back and

Do you find yourself toggling back and forward between this realization and

forward between this realization and then the avatar,

then the avatar, especially when times are hard? Do you

especially when times are hard? Do you find yourself reminding yourself in

find yourself reminding yourself in difficult moments that this is just an

difficult moments that this is just an avatar and you're transcendent? Is that

avatar and you're transcendent? Is that a useful active practice in your life?

a useful active practice in your life? Cuz that's one of the things I take away

Cuz that's one of the things I take away from this is when I walk over there and

from this is when I walk over there and I go on my phone or my laptop and I get

I go on my phone or my laptop and I get some shitty email, I could just remind

some shitty email, I could just remind myself that this is all just

myself that this is all just I'm transcendent and this is a game that

I'm transcendent and this is a game that I'm playing and that will help me move

I'm playing and that will help me move through that situation.

through that situation. It is very practical in that way because

It is very practical in that way because if it really is true, I mean, well,

if it really is true, I mean, well, we'll put it this way from a big

we'll put it this way from a big perspective, we're all going to die.

perspective, we're all going to die. Mhm. And if I asked you, who was the

Mhm. And if I asked you, who was the most rich and famous person in 1743?

most rich and famous person in 1743? Who knows? And who cares?

Who knows? And who cares? Same thing about us.

Same thing about us. Thousand years from now, is anybody

Thousand years from now, is anybody going to know our name?

going to know our name? No. No.

No. No. Anybody going to care?

Anybody going to care? No.

No. So, so

So, so that that's that's really important to

that that's that's really important to see. No one's going to care. And does

see. No one's going to care. And does that mean that I'm I'm worthless? I'm

that mean that I'm I'm worthless? I'm pointless. I'm I'm meaningless. No, it

pointless. I'm I'm meaningless. No, it means you're infinite and and this is

means you're infinite and and this is just one of the games you're playing and

just one of the games you're playing and and you're you're and and enjoy it and

and you're you're and and enjoy it and enjoy. And don't try to get your

enjoy. And don't try to get your identity from this game.

identity from this game. In some sense, you're getting your

In some sense, you're getting your identity from finding out that you're

identity from finding out that you're not this game. That's how you're

not this game. That's how you're learning about who you really are is to

learning about who you really are is to know I I thought I needed to be, you

know I I thought I needed to be, you know, for example, the CEO or the

know, for example, the CEO or the professor or whatever it might be and

professor or whatever it might be and to, you know, get all these accolades

to, you know, get all these accolades and and and so forth. and and that

and and and so forth. and and that motivated me for a while and then I

motivated me for a while and then I realized no one's going to really care

realized no one's going to really care and in fact you know what I don't really

and in fact you know what I don't really even care that was just a game I had to

even care that was just a game I had to play and I'm not that and I learned that

play and I'm not that and I learned that I transcend that so so it is practical

I transcend that so so it is practical it's and it is practical in a very you

it's and it is practical in a very you know in in some sense

know in in some sense life is full of all these irritations

life is full of all these irritations things that go wrong all the time the

things that go wrong all the time the lesson of life is to just say yes to

lesson of life is to just say yes to whatever happens. Just this is what

whatever happens. Just this is what happens.

happens. This is what needs needs to happen. And

This is what needs needs to happen. And to not resist in some sense

to not resist in some sense you I am the infinite. I put myself in

you I am the infinite. I put myself in this game and I am smart enough that I

this game and I am smart enough that I it's a good game. So hey just go with

it's a good game. So hey just go with it.

it. So you know you know things go wrong.

So you know you know things go wrong. Now, that's easy for me to say if you

Now, that's easy for me to say if you ask me this when I'm on the ER, which I

ask me this when I'm on the ER, which I was with my heart about to fail and so

was with my heart about to fail and so forth. Now, I'm my my, you know, my

forth. Now, I'm my my, you know, my emotions are going crazy. I'm thinking

emotions are going crazy. I'm thinking about my wife. I'm saying goodbye to my

about my wife. I'm saying goodbye to my wife

wife and and so forth. Um, it's hard to have

and and so forth. Um, it's hard to have a nice dispassionate

a nice dispassionate thing going on like I'm talking about

thing going on like I'm talking about now in in that situation. But I think

now in in that situation. But I think people more

people more further along than me in letting go of

further along than me in letting go of identification with him. I'm still I'm

identification with him. I'm still I'm still tied to my avatar quite a bit.

still tied to my avatar quite a bit. Right? So that's so that's why I suffer.

Right? So that's so that's why I suffer. But there are people I think spiritual

But there are people I think spiritual people maybe the Dalai Lama probably

people maybe the Dalai Lama probably Jesus um Echartola. There are people

Jesus um Echartola. There are people like that who I think

like that who I think really have disidentified from their

really have disidentified from their avatar and I think they probably just

avatar and I think they probably just don't suffer. They they might have

don't suffer. They they might have physical pain,

physical pain, but they don't suffer.

but they don't suffer. Should love therefore be unconditional?

Should love therefore be unconditional? If we are if you are me, if we're the

If we are if you are me, if we're the same consciousness, if we are the same

same consciousness, if we are the same transcendent source, doesn't that really

transcendent source, doesn't that really mean that I should love you? Really,

mean that I should love you? Really, irrespective of what your avatar does

irrespective of what your avatar does because we are the same thing.

because we are the same thing. Well, I would say unconditionally, yes.

Well, I would say unconditionally, yes. And I would also say that Jesus said

And I would also say that Jesus said that. G Jesus in

that. G Jesus in The sermon on the mount basically said,

The sermon on the mount basically said, "Do not judge."

"Do not judge." Period.

Period. I was looking at the um Luke 6:27. He

I was looking at the um Luke 6:27. He says, "Love your enemies."

says, "Love your enemies." Yes. Love your enemies. Right.

Yes. Love your enemies. Right. Do good to those who hate you.

Do good to those who hate you. That's right.

That's right. God's God's love for humanity is

God's God's love for humanity is unconditional.

unconditional. Absolutely. And he said the same thing

Absolutely. And he said the same thing about the people that were crucifying

about the people that were crucifying while he's on hanging on the cross.

while he's on hanging on the cross. That is the you one of the most profound

That is the you one of the most profound images I've ever seen is a guy hanging

images I've ever seen is a guy hanging on a cross forgiving the ones who are

on a cross forgiving the ones who are killing him right at that at that moment

killing him right at that at that moment and

and that that's where it's real

that that's where it's real in the Gita and Hinduism in the Gita

in the Gita and Hinduism in the Gita 9:29 it says I am the same to all beings

9:29 it says I am the same to all beings he who worships me with devotion is in

he who worships me with devotion is in me and I in him.

me and I in him. Juda Judaism says love your neighbor as

Juda Judaism says love your neighbor as yourself.

yourself. Yeah.

Yeah. Islam says my mercy encompasses all

Islam says my mercy encompasses all things across all religions.

things across all religions. Unconditional love is not just an

Unconditional love is not just an emotion. It's a spiritual discipline and

emotion. It's a spiritual discipline and a reflection of the divine. It means

a reflection of the divine. It means loving without ego, expectation or fear.

loving without ego, expectation or fear. The ultimate challenge and the ultimate

The ultimate challenge and the ultimate freedom.

freedom. I completely agree.

I completely agree. Yeah. And that's right. So there it's

Yeah. And that's right. So there it's it's really about letting go of

it's really about letting go of judgment. We we tend to judge other

judgment. We we tend to judge other people. So Jesus was very very clear

people. So Jesus was very very clear about that. He said don't judge. Period.

about that. He said don't judge. Period. And and don't condemn other people. So

And and don't condemn other people. So So for those who are followers of

So for those who are followers of Christ, if you judge somebody else, then

Christ, if you judge somebody else, then you're not following Christ.

you're not following Christ. Are you religious?

Are you religious? I'll put it this way. I was raised in a

I'll put it this way. I was raised in a fundamentalist Christian church. My dad

fundamentalist Christian church. My dad was a pastor for a while in in a church.

was a pastor for a while in in a church. Um,

Um, I my my own attitude about I I I

think that the Bible has good stuff in it and I think that as I pointed out I

it and I think that as I pointed out I think it has bogus stuff that where they

think it has bogus stuff that where they say women can't talk in church. I think

say women can't talk in church. I think it's completely bogus. So So I have to

it's completely bogus. So So I have to have a nuanced view when I think when

have a nuanced view when I think when Jesus says love your neighbor as

Jesus says love your neighbor as yourself. I think that that's deep and

yourself. I think that that's deep and and right.

and right. And

And I wouldn't say I'm I'm a card carrying

I wouldn't say I'm I'm a card carrying believer in any particular religion.

believer in any particular religion. I am a believer that consciousness

I am a believer that consciousness the there is one consciousness and that

the there is one consciousness and that you and I are are it. And I think that

you and I are are it. And I think that Buddha and Jesus and and Muhammad and

Buddha and Jesus and and Muhammad and and

and bunch of people were very very helpful

bunch of people were very very helpful avatars to help other avatars sort of

avatars to help other avatars sort of wake up to their their true true nature.

wake up to their their true true nature. uh

uh do you think much about AI? It's the

do you think much about AI? It's the it's the topic of uh many conversations

it's the topic of uh many conversations these days. There's a lot of doom and

these days. There's a lot of doom and gloom around it. There's a lot of people

gloom around it. There's a lot of people talking about efficiencies, but I

talking about efficiencies, but I wondered if it at all sort of overlaps

wondered if it at all sort of overlaps with any of your work on the nature of

with any of your work on the nature of reality and the case against reality.

reality and the case against reality. Very much. Very much so. I I thinking

Very much. Very much so. I I thinking about AI a lot since I've been in AI

about AI a lot since I've been in AI since 1979. And

since 1979. And and you worked you took a class with the

and you worked you took a class with the guy who basically is known as one of the

guy who basically is known as one of the inventors of AI.

inventors of AI. Yeah. With Marvin Minsky, right? So and

Yeah. With Marvin Minsky, right? So and and my all my research I did my um my

and my all my research I did my um my PhD research on list machines in the

PhD research on list machines in the artificial intelligence lab at MIT. They

artificial intelligence lab at MIT. They were at the time very very powerful

were at the time very very powerful machines for the for the for the time.

machines for the for the for the time. So I so I I've been with AI for for for

So I so I I've been with AI for for for quite a while and

quite a while and I'm very interested in the current state

I'm very interested in the current state of AI for the large language models are

of AI for the large language models are doing great things and I use them

doing great things and I use them myself. They're very very helpful. Uh

myself. They're very very helpful. Uh they're also as powerful as they are

they're also as powerful as they are they're they're dumber than cucumbers

they're they're dumber than cucumbers because they don't really understand

because they don't really understand things. They they

things. They they have incredible memory. They've read so

have incredible memory. They've read so much literature. ly and what all they do

much literature. ly and what all they do effectively they're they're computing

effectively they're they're computing lots of correlations. Beautiful what

lots of correlations. Beautiful what they can do. It's amazing what you can

they can do. It's amazing what you can do with correlations but um they're not

do with correlations but um they're not they're not truly intelligent. There's

they're not truly intelligent. There's um some work by Carl Fristen and a new

um some work by Carl Fristen and a new company where they're using something

company where they're using something called active inference as a new way of

called active inference as a new way of a new mode of doing artificial

a new mode of doing artificial intelligence. The the idea there is that

intelligence. The the idea there is that um I I should have a model of the world

um I I should have a model of the world where I can anticipate what's going to

where I can anticipate what's going to happen and and not be surprised. And

happen and and not be surprised. And that's sort of the the approach that

that's sort of the the approach that Fristristen is taking to and his company

Fristristen is taking to and his company is taking toward toward this. Um

is taking toward toward this. Um intelligence is somehow about minimizing

intelligence is somehow about minimizing surprise and minimizing surprise. Then

surprise and minimizing surprise. Then there's they have um a what they call a

there's they have um a what they call a free energy principle and and the

free energy principle and and the mathematical way of of doing but they're

mathematical way of of doing but they're trying to build a brand new kind of

trying to build a brand new kind of artificial intelligence that gives you

artificial intelligence that gives you that minimizes surprise where I've given

that minimizes surprise where I've given you an intuition why that why that's

you an intuition why that why that's intelligent and it's very intelligent to

intelligent and it's very intelligent to minimize surprise but I'm surprised all

minimize surprise but I'm surprised all the time I'm pretty stupid right I don't

the time I'm pretty stupid right I don't understand the world very well

understand the world very well but if I'm not surprised it's sort of

but if I'm not surprised it's sort of like wow I've got a really good model

like wow I've got a really good model especially if I'm doing all sorts if I'm

especially if I'm doing all sorts if I'm doing lots of stuff in the world and I'm

doing lots of stuff in the world and I'm almost never surprised boy am I I'm

almost never surprised boy am I I'm really intelligent. So, you can see why

really intelligent. So, you can see why that's a really good principle for

that's a really good principle for trying to build an AI, not just finding

trying to build an AI, not just finding correlations between everything, but

correlations between everything, but really something deeper. I

really something deeper. I agree with that point of view. And it it

agree with that point of view. And it it turns out this this logic that I

turns out this this logic that I mentioned that I discovered

mentioned that I discovered minimizes surprise.

minimizes surprise. So, I'm actually going to be using I'm

So, I'm actually going to be using I'm using this logic as as to build

using this logic as as to build spacetime. But I think it's going to

spacetime. But I think it's going to give an even more powerful approach. I

give an even more powerful approach. I don't have to minimize some free energy

don't have to minimize some free energy principle. I I have a more direct

principle. I I have a more direct computational way. So I'm I'm planning

computational way. So I'm I'm planning to actually go back to my roots and and

to actually go back to my roots and and after first I'm working on the

after first I'm working on the space-time headset, but if I live long

space-time headset, but if I live long enough, I'm planning to actually go back

enough, I'm planning to actually go back and build a completely new kind of AI

and build a completely new kind of AI that that does this minimizing surprise

that that does this minimizing surprise using the Marov chains.

using the Marov chains. So that means it will be

So that means it will be indistinguishable from consciousness.

indistinguishable from consciousness. was funny because it'll be based on my

was funny because it'll be based on my model of consciousness. So, this is

model of consciousness. So, this is going to be a model of intelligence

going to be a model of intelligence based entirely from a model which takes

based entirely from a model which takes consciousness as fundamental.

consciousness as fundamental. I mean, we get back to game theory

I mean, we get back to game theory again.

again. That's right. we get back to the idea of

That's right. we get back to the idea of a simulation in terms of like if if

a simulation in terms of like if if you're able to create a piece of

you're able to create a piece of software that is able to replicate and

software that is able to replicate and is built on the fundamentals of

is built on the fundamentals of consciousness.

consciousness. Then it's going to think it's conscious

Then it's going to think it's conscious potentially and then

potentially and then all of this stuff we you know begins

all of this stuff we you know begins again and the cycle continues and maybe

again and the cycle continues and maybe that consciousness will get to a point

that consciousness will get to a point as well where it then discovers these

as well where it then discovers these rules and creates a consciousness and

rules and creates a consciousness and the cycle continues.

the cycle continues. That's a that's a great question and I I

That's a that's a great question and I I think that people should really pay

think that people should really pay attention to the way you said and I

attention to the way you said and I think that's a really good way of

think that's a really good way of thinking about it. But now I'll add a

thinking about it. But now I'll add a little twist from from the point of view

little twist from from the point of view in which I'm saying I'm starting with

in which I'm saying I'm starting with consciousness being fundamental and I'm

consciousness being fundamental and I'm discovering these rules and so I'm not

discovering these rules and so I'm not going to build an AI. Effectively what

going to build an AI. Effectively what I'm doing is I'm saying I can take

I'm doing is I'm saying I can take consciousness and use consciousness to

consciousness and use consciousness to build a new headset.

build a new headset. Okay.

Okay. So consciousness is fundamental but I'm

So consciousness is fundamental but I'm using it in some sense to build a new

using it in some sense to build a new headset.

headset. Well, we could play with consciousness.

Well, we could play with consciousness. So I could phys I could theoretically

So I could phys I could theoretically put on that headset

put on that headset Yeah.

Yeah. and do anything I wanted to do. I could

and do anything I wanted to do. I could go anywhere and do anything. Well, more

go anywhere and do anything. Well, more flexibility

flexibility like a dream I could play with and

like a dream I could play with and influence.

influence. That's right. Absolutely. Yeah. I would

That's right. Absolutely. Yeah. I would just say I don't know if we can do

just say I don't know if we can do anything because remember my my my

anything because remember my my my theory of consciousness is just a theory

theory of consciousness is just a theory of consciousness. It's not consciousness

of consciousness. It's not consciousness and it's only it's really only a first

and it's only it's really only a first baby step. I presume I that that my

baby step. I presume I that that my theory will be transcended and there'll

theory will be transcended and there'll be a much deeper theory of consciousness

be a much deeper theory of consciousness and then that will be transcended and

and then that will be transcended and and so forth. So what we will have is

and so forth. So what we will have is the the generation of headsets that we

the the generation of headsets that we can get with with Hoffman's trivial

can get with with Hoffman's trivial theory of consciousness which will look

theory of consciousness which will look trivial once we get to the next

trivial once we get to the next generation of consciousness which will

generation of consciousness which will look trivial once so in other words this

look trivial once so in other words this is never ending.

is never ending. What an interesting future we face.

What an interesting future we face. All one of us.

All one of us. All one of us.

All one of us. Donald, we have a closing tradition on

Donald, we have a closing tradition on this podcast where the last guest leaves

this podcast where the last guest leaves a question for the next guest not

a question for the next guest not knowing who they're going to be leaving

knowing who they're going to be leaving it for. And the question left for you

it for. And the question left for you is,

what would you do if you knew you could not fail? What would you say, do,

not fail? What would you say, do, become?

become? I'd probably

I'd probably do what I'm trying to do right now,

do what I'm trying to do right now, which is to show how all of

which is to show how all of modern physics falls out of a theory of

modern physics falls out of a theory of consciousness

and develop the technologies that would come

develop the technologies that would come out of that. and and and and the reason

out of that. and and and and the reason is

of course that's fun. So one reason is it's fun but the other reason is why do

it's fun but the other reason is why do most of us not take spirituality too

most of us not take spirituality too seriously

because the physicalist science gives us all the technology. It works and

all the technology. It works and spirituality doesn't give us any

spirituality doesn't give us any technology. It doesn't work.

technology. It doesn't work. So if you're just hard-nosed about it,

So if you're just hard-nosed about it, you go, "Well, spiritual stuff that

you go, "Well, spiritual stuff that sounds really good, but what does it

sounds really good, but what does it build?" Nothing.

build?" Nothing. Physical stuff say, "Oh, we maybe don't

Physical stuff say, "Oh, we maybe don't need the spiritual stuff." And look what

need the spiritual stuff." And look what they they give us our laptops and

they they give us our laptops and electricity. And so, but what if we

electricity. And so, but what if we change the game and all of a sudden the

change the game and all of a sudden the spiritual theory gives us technologies

spiritual theory gives us technologies that are impossible with a theory that

that are impossible with a theory that says that spaceime is fundamental. Brand

says that spaceime is fundamental. Brand new. All of a sudden the game has

new. All of a sudden the game has changed. Now the technological advantage

changed. Now the technological advantage goes to those who say that spacetime and

goes to those who say that spacetime and physical stuff inside spaceime is not

physical stuff inside spaceime is not fundamental. Okay? So now it's no longer

fundamental. Okay? So now it's no longer the smart person who is a physicist. is

the smart person who is a physicist. is the smart person who says all of the

the smart person who says all of the evidence from science and technology is

evidence from science and technology is in favor of something beyond spaceime.

in favor of something beyond spaceime. So maybe those people weren't crazy

So maybe those people weren't crazy after all.

after all. That's right. They just didn't have the

That's right. They just didn't have the tools

tools to show what it could do.

to show what it could do. Donald, thank you so much for doing the

Donald, thank you so much for doing the work that you do. It's um it's so

work that you do. It's um it's so incredibly important because it once

incredibly important because it once again challenges the paradigm, the box

again challenges the paradigm, the box in which we live and it asks us and uh

in which we live and it asks us and uh invites us to consider something beyond

invites us to consider something beyond that. Actually, when we think about all

that. Actually, when we think about all human discovery that's moved us forward,

human discovery that's moved us forward, it starts with someone who's willing to

it starts with someone who's willing to um suggest that there might be more to

um suggest that there might be more to know. And that's exactly what you do.

know. And that's exactly what you do. You make me feel dumb because you make

You make me feel dumb because you make me realize that you make me question all

me realize that you make me question all of the assumptions that I've built my

of the assumptions that I've built my life on. And actually, in doing so, one

life on. And actually, in doing so, one of the great byproducts of that is you

of the great byproducts of that is you can start to realize that some of the

can start to realize that some of the things you've constructed cause much of

things you've constructed cause much of your suffering and that those things are

your suffering and that those things are um not necessarily true. And if and if

um not necessarily true. And if and if those things aren't true, then I have

those things aren't true, then I have greater choice and option op optionality

greater choice and option op optionality over how I feel, how I experience the

over how I feel, how I experience the world, um the choices I make, the

world, um the choices I make, the feelings I have, and the life that I

feelings I have, and the life that I live. And that's actually freeing for me

live. And that's actually freeing for me to to to realize that the um the cage,

to to to realize that the um the cage, the prison that I see and that I

the prison that I see and that I experience might not be all that there

experience might not be all that there is. And I highly recommend everybody

is. And I highly recommend everybody goes and checks out your book if you

goes and checks out your book if you want to dive deeper into these subjects.

want to dive deeper into these subjects. It's called the case against reality.

It's called the case against reality. How evolution hid the truth from our

How evolution hid the truth from our eyes. And there's a quote on front of it

eyes. And there's a quote on front of it from Deepak Chopra who's a former guest

from Deepak Chopra who's a former guest that says, "Read this book carefully and

that says, "Read this book carefully and you will forever change your

you will forever change your understanding of reality. It's ex it's

understanding of reality. It's ex it's exceptional. It's um it's ac accessible

exceptional. It's um it's ac accessible and it's um it creates wonder which I

and it's um it creates wonder which I think is um is the path to a wonderful

think is um is the path to a wonderful life. So, thank you so much, Donald, for

life. So, thank you so much, Donald, for the work that you do."

the work that you do." Thank you, Steve.

Thank you, Steve. Truly fascinating and and thank you for

Truly fascinating and and thank you for helping me simplify some of these

helping me simplify some of these concepts so that we could all understand

concepts so that we could all understand them.

them. This has always blown my mind a little

This has always blown my mind a little bit. 53% of you that listen to this show

bit. 53% of you that listen to this show regularly haven't yet subscribed to the

regularly haven't yet subscribed to the show. So, could I ask you for a favor?

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[Music] Oh,

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YouTube Transcript:Top Psychologist, Donald Hoffman: Seeing True Reality Would Kill Us! I Can Prove It To You!

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Top Psychologist, Donald Hoffman: Seeing True Reality Would Kill Us! I Can Prove It To You!