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078 - Bridging Inner and Outer Worlds

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This discussion explores the profound implications of a consciousness-centric view of reality, suggesting that the nature of the self, consciousness, and our interactions with the unknown are deeply interconnected and fractal, extending from individual experience to the cosmos.

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Welcome back to another episode of

Liinal Frames. I'm your host, Nathan,

and I'm joined by my friend and

colleague, Darren King, also known as

Exo Academian. It's good to be back with

all of you. Darren, it's officially

hoodie season. I see that you're wearing

a hoodie as am I. And I really do like

this time of the year. We are just a few

days away from Halloween to all those

who observe. And uh it's it's cold, it's

rainy, it's it's beautiful, it's

everything in between. Uh I'm certainly

enjoying it even though I'm spending a

lot of time behind my desk uh lately,

but it it's been a a really enjoyable

season. But how are things going with you?

you?

>> Things are good on my end and I'm

absolutely enjoying this weather as

well. And I found that even though it's

pretty gray today, it almost makes the

colors of the tree leaves come out even

more just at the peak basically of the

color at this point. But loving that.

And I actually had a bit of a reprieve

from the fall weather recently because I

just got back from Houston where it was

85° and humid and very much shorts and

t-shirt kind of weather. So, that was a

bit of a shift coming back. That was a

great trip. As I said to you in our

catchup, going to Rice University in

Houston feels like going to Narnia for

me. I don't get there through a closet,

but perhaps I should try that next time.

Either way, love meeting up with people

that I really appreciate and love there.

And I have referenced to other people in

the past that they say supposedly it's

hard to make close friends after the age

of 30 as an adult. I have found yourself

included that some of the people I care

most about that I'm closest to I've met

all within the last six or seven years

and a good number of people that I am

feeling very very connected to and of

course it's related to all of these

topics and our obsession with these

particular topics and maybe even a

vocational calling around these topics

but yeah so that was a beautiful trip

and happy to be back and uh looking

forward to diving into tonight with a

pretty meta perspective like topic shall we

Absolutely. Yeah, it's uh I echo that.

It's been really rewarding and exciting

to meet lots of different people and and

I love living vicariously through your

journeys and encounters with folks uh in

your travels. It's uh there's a lot of

energy here and I know that sometimes we

can feel that energy uh wax and wayne,

right? I would say we might be in a

little bit of a waning time to some

degree uh in the topic overall. The the

sentiment if you take a a quick sort of

litmus test, temperature test of the of

the uhological uh social media spaces,

it seems a little bit muted. It seems a

little bit uh I don't know, down and

out. Uh there's just not a lot of

incredible things that seemingly are

happening. Uh but maybe that that's not

as true as we might think. And I think

it it it may be more of an example of

our fatigue really just with the entire

process and and here I mean if you've

been following this for decades or even

since the last few years you may just be

a little bit tired and and want to see

some really monumental progress and we

haven't seen that. We keep thinking we

keep hearing that it might be around the

corner. Uh and I hate to be that guy

that's like it's always you know going

to be coming next year. Uh I don't want

that to be uh the the common refrain,

but you know, maybe we are just a little

bit fatigued and and are just not seeing

things as they truly are. So Darren,

there are some things that are pretty

exciting that are on the horizon. Uh a

couple of which we talked about before

we got on the air here. One is that uh

the Age of Disclosure film from Dan

Farah is has finally has a release date

uh on streaming which will be really

exciting and has I think a couple live

releases as well. And uh there's been

some rumors that David Grush has

recorded an interview. Uh we don't know

if we're going to get to see that, but I

know Ross has alluded to that. That

might be a possibility. Maybe in the

op-ed, the long rumored oped may be

coming out. So, it wouldn't surprise me

too much if that gets timed pretty

closely to the release of this film for

the greatest dramatic effect. Uh because

I think that is the point, right? is to

really shock folks and get a lot of

attention and get people talking about

the kinds of individuals that are in

this film and what they are saying. So,

you know, there's just a couple of

things, but uh in addition to that or

maybe you want to reflect on that, what

are some other things that that you're

hearing about?

>> Yeah. Well, I'm definitely interested to

see that film. I think many of us are.

At the same time, I think again touching

on something you and I both were

reflecting on our catchup, this will

probably increase the breadth of

coverage of this topic, but it remains

to be seen how much greater depth comes

about in light of this because this

topic is so complex with the high

stranges and the nature of reality and

how that plays in which we'll discuss

tonight. because it's so complex and

because people are so busy in the modern

world, they may have their interest

peaked when we talk about ETSs, the

notion of cool tech with UFOs and

whatnot. But when they start

understanding all of the rest and how

Sasquatch is wrapped up in this and dino

beavers and portals opening in the sky

and spaceime being hacked and

potentially beings from our future

eventually, in addition to disclosure

fatigue just in terms of the amount of

time that's passed since 2017, there's

also just fatigue around how many

different notions do I have to entertain

to make sense of this before I can begin

to start hypothesizing? How much breadth

do I have to basically bring in here?

And that's why I think it's complex and

we will see how many people actually

come on board. I think the numbers of

people gaining interest is increasing,

but how much purchase were actually

gaining as a collective remains to be

seen. Definitely looking forward to that

film. I'm also looking forward to what

David Gush might say. You and I both

reflected on as well. There was a recent

interview with Dan Sherman. I did a PC

episode that you'll remember on his

story. Wasn't really new information per

se, but maybe just a new generation of

people being familiarized with his

story. He certainly wasn't backing down

from his story. And if anything, as I

said to you a few minutes ago, it's

interesting that after decades of

reflection, he came away seeing that he

thinks these beings are not all bad.

that while he was at first put off by

the notion that this telepathic

connection he had with these beings and

then passing on coordinates and other

numbers that he took to be times and

dates might have been related to

abductions that were about to happen

that they were basically letting the US

military know specifically an elite

group of the air force. So he backed out

of his involvement because of that. But

it's interesting to hear him say decades

later in reflecting on the nature of his

interactions telepathically with these

graves supposedly and the entire nature

of the enterprise that he doesn't see it

as a fully negative malevolent thing

either on behalf of the military or the

grays themselves. So that's fascinating.

I think something that I've been really

entertaining is this notion that the

term the gray is actually a basic

category of which there are many many

subcategories. And this has been talked

about in some experiencer groups as

well. You'll get somebody who's fairly

new who will come in and say, "The grays

were all bad. Why would we ever trust

them?" And I do know people who had

accounts that would say the same thing.

But I know many others on the other side

of the spectrum who've had really

beautifific transcendent experiences by

those same looking beings. Now some

people will say, "So maybe that's just a

gu." So nevertheless, this particular

kind of form shows up over and over

again. And there are many variations on

that form, subtle differences in the

morphology and basically covers the

gamut in terms of the nature of the

experiences people have with them as

well as sometimes people realize it's

their own initial fear and onlogical

shock that is making them react to those

beings almost viscerally, but over time

they develop more of a relational

dynamic and vice versa. The beings

themselves seem to respond to people

more positively when they realize

they're not going to act like a cornered

raccoon. Basically what catches my

attention is that the more I'm in this

pretty privileged and that I get to dive

into these topics from every possible

angle with all of my time basically and

I look at that and the conversations I'm

having with people versus the nature of

the conversation being had in Congress

and whatnot. There's a big gap between

those two. And even what we talk about

in these podcasts to some degree is

catching up on things I've been working

on and delving into for months

basically. So that's a fascinating

sociological equation where I see us

slowly but surely having larger numbers

of people being aware of this topic but

not a whole lot of depth in terms of

understanding the nuances around it.

Yeah, I think that that's a good segue

into diving into our topic because there

is a sense in which there's a lot of

things that we wrestle with internally

about all the mysteries that we hear

about in in the anecdotes and the

whistleblowers and you know the

sightings uh that that seem to take

place out outside in reality and and can

happen to anyone. And when you hear

those stories, if you haven't

experienced them yourself, you there's

there's many things that go on inside

where you're wrestling with what does

that all mean? And and you know, could

that happen to me? And and a whole host

of questions sort of flow out from that

about the nature of reality that the

about the nature of the self um who are

we who are are we separate? Are we are

we distinctly different from one

another? Uh who are they? And what is

our relationship with them? There's a

whole lot of questions that really spill

out from that, but a lot of that

thinking that that that pursuit is

happening internally. And so I know we

want to spend a little time really kind

of playing with this uh internal

external uh dichotomy and and examining

that and and looking at whether there is

truly a distinction there or what is the

interplay between one and the other. So

I know you want to get get started with

this. So where would you like like to

go? Well, I guess we should just set the

table by saying that for those of you

who've been around with us for a while

now, you'll recognize that both Nathan

and I tend towards an idealistic view of

the world. It's basically this notion

that consciousness is primary.

Consciousness is the bedrock of reality

and everything else is an epipenomenon

of that. And when that's the case, that

opens up some very very interesting

possibilities in terms of what is the

nature of what we're seeing and

experiencing even across different

dimensions. How do these beings relate

to us in terms of perhaps even a

multi-dimensional psyche? Because of

course from an idealistic point of view

in the biggest picture there's one

original mind from which all of the

differentiation in terms of forms and

personas and beings and all that is

basically a fracturing or a outpouring

of projection from that oneness. So I

think we can all recognize that that's

the big picture philosophical

understanding of that. I think what I

want to explore today is what are the

implications of that? If that's true,

how might that show up in how we

experience ourselves and each other and

these other beings and these other

dimensions of reality, which you know

that I've explored to some degree? And

when you've done some of that exploring

as I have, it really does make you think

about this particular dimension

differently. We're often talking about

interdimensionals and extradimensionals

and all that, but when you've been

outside and you come back, you see this

and you experience this as a dimension,

one of many. And that's interesting. and

even the notion of the self becomes much

more complex and I would say interesting

as well. So, as I was catching you up on

some of the research I've been doing

over the last few months, a lot of this

has to do with how to make sense of all

of these related topics and how you

bring sociology, psychology,

neuroscience, astronomy, physics, all of

it to bear to make sense of what's going

on here. And I think there is a coherent

picture, but it is complex to unpack it.

But I think once people unpack to a

great enough degree, they will see it

and recognize that pretty much all of

the phenomena we have observed both in

our everyday waking experience and in

these non-ordinary states and whatnot.

As well as with these beings that seem

at the same time hard to pin down,

right? We're always getting blurry

footage. At the same time, they seem to

have had a vast and consequential impact

in our civilization and have probably

been around from the beginning. How can

that even happen? Right? I think all of

that begins to make sense when you have

this understanding that these are all

refractions from the oneness. So, that's

what I wanted to explore. I want to get

your takes along the way as we go

through this really interesting journey.

I think where we might want to begin

here beyond setting the table in terms

of the nature of reality being

consciousness ccentric is around the

peculiar way that people sometimes

experience these beings whether it's

UFOs whether it's actual beings they're

encountering or what have you people

very often when you look at the

literature and I've seen much of this

for instance in the archives of the

impossible literature with the Mac

archives and the with the strier archives

archives

that people very often describe describe

these experiences as dreamlike in

nature. They don't say they're dreams,

nor do they say it's just like taking my

dog for a walk. It's somehow some blend

of the two. And that begs the question,

what is that? And I had an interesting

conversation with my colleagues when we

were talking about how we're going to

make sense of all this data from this

literature. And one of our colleagues is

a neuroscientist.

And he said, "Well, based on my, you

know, neuroscience background, we know

there's certain states of consciousness.

So perhaps the first thing we can do is

map these different experiences into one

of these states of consciousness that

are wellknown and well established

within neuroscience.

The challenge is the way these people

describe these encounters and these

experiences, they don't seem to slot

into any of those acknowledge states of

consciousness. They seem to be a blend

of two at least. So that already hints

at the fact that what we perceive as

reality and even our usual experience as

a human being is not the full picture.

So let me pass it back to you to get

some reflections from you. when you hear

people and I know even on cab you've

heard different experiencers talk about

their experiences and people wrestle

with on the one hand they don't want to

admit that it's a bit dreamlike because

then people will think well you just

hallucinated or you you misunderstood

what was a dream for reality when you

reflect on that aspect of the lore that

you're familiar with as well what do you

come away with

>> it's uh the struggle is real and you can

see that take place when they're

recounting their story very few people

who share these experiences have fully

integrated what they mean. And and and

often they don't have a final conclusion

as to what their experience is and and

you can tell it's an active process that

they go through in their lived

experience just constantly revisiting

that and and reinterpreting that and

trying to integrate that into their

self. And so I you when you're talking

about this, I think a lot about just the

the human condition generally as it

might map to the condition of source

consciousness and the fractal nature of

consciousness that we find in reality.

There's a there's a process of

integration that has to occur and that

process is not a oneandone. It's a

continuum. And so you you can think

about this from your own lived

experience. I mean I certainly have

experience with this. Uh there are many

different personalities uh with within

you and and many different leanings and

uh you know sort of almost conflicting

attributes sometimes and you might find

uh one of these personalities sort of

bubble up to the surface in a situation

that you aren't expecting. Usually that

that is when it happens right so it

happens when when we aren't in a state

of uh complete control where we are

surprised where we are uh frustrated

angry uh you know energized you know the

the these different sort of expressions

come to the surface and sometimes you

know I think you can find yourself even

being surprised by that expression you

can say wait wait wait wait a minute who

is this like I just I just acted in this

way and that's not the way I would act

in the normal day-to-day. So where did

this come from and why it obviously is a

part of me? Why does that part of me uh

more below the surface than on the

surface? And it has it says a lot to our

societal conditioning. It says a lot to

our our sort of executive functioning

and how we are you know sort of slicing

off certain things and keeping other

aspects. But if you if you take that

concept and explore that more broadly

with source consciousness and all of the

individuated consciousness that is an

expression of source, source in a way is

is also doing the same kind of

processing having to integrate the

entirety of disassociation and into a

whole into a holistic picture. And so to

some degree I think perhaps uh our

experience with this and most of us

aren't actually very good at the

integration aspect but our attempts to

integrate is a kind of training for

future integration

as source like it's a it's a building

block toward being able to better

integrate the disassociations at the

source level. So that's how I think

about this. It's a fascinating topic to

explore and it and when you bring in

these kinds of encounters and

experiences, it really does open up a

whole lot of avenues as to what does it

all mean and and and what is what is the

reality that I experience on the

day-to-day? Is that is that quote

unquote normal or have I normalized it

as opposed to the experiences that

people share? Maybe that is more normal

than we'd like to think.

>> Yeah. And it's interesting to think

about the implications with states of

consciousness as you pointed to there,

not just in terms of the difference

between a dream state and a waking state

for instance or a non-ordinary state

through deep meditation or through the

use of a hallucinogenic or something

like that. But even this notion that

yeah we have different aspects of

ourselves that come to the four

depending on certain circumstances and

that impacts our state and even the way

that we actually manifest in that

moment. It's it really is fascinating.

And when you think about this notion

that the most advanced of these beings

will recognize not just external

technology as we understand it in the

real world quote unquote, but they will

also understand from a consciousness

perspective that you could even

potentially break off or segment

different states of being through which

you could conduct affairs. And if it

only happens in that state of being and

a person doesn't usually have access to

that state of being, they won't know how

to make sense of it. They won't be able

to integrate it. And say if you want to

do things that are maybe a little bit

nefarious or you just don't want a

society to know that you're doing it or

species to know by doing it that way,

you can basically keep it outside of the

awareness of the larger culture. which

speaks to what I said a few minutes ago

when we have this paradox where on the

one hand there seems to be peripheral

evidence pointing to these various

intelligences basically subsuming this

realm and having a massive impact on our

entire history but doing so almost

always from the margins so that you

always have to read between the lines to

understand that they are somehow

influencing the picture and when they

can manipulate again for good or for ill

these different states of awareness and

when we are largely unaware of these

states of being then they can conduct in

a way that's very stealthy

but coming back to this notion of the

dreamlike experiences themselves

this truly is fascinating and I think

this is where for instance when we're

trying to use artificial intelligence to

parse out all this information you have

to be careful because the AI is partly

drawing on what it's been modeled on

from all of human civilization what's

been on the internet and there these

basic states of consciousness iousness

exist and here we're talking about a

state of consciousness that is not well

attested to so the AI could easily miss

the picture and you almost have to make

sure that it's nuanced enough not to

just collapse dream like into dream

because that's the problem is people go

I need to know were you awake when this

happened or were you dreaming we already

know with the hypnogogic and the

hypnopic states that it's more complex

than that we have these kind of blended

liinal states that sounds like a good

name for a show by the

So we know it's more complex and these

beings might be able to even to a

greater degree fracture off different

states of awareness and if we're not

able to access those then this could

largely happen without us being aware.

And this often involves for instance

only when someone goes to a regressive

hypnotist are they able to uncover some

of these memories prior to then these

little slivers these little splinters of

awareness that seems like their

experience comes to the four. But the

challenge is the experiences are so

strange. The nature of the reality scape

that they seem to happen within is so

unlike the waking state experience that

people go, well, I've been raised to

believe it's either a dream or it's

real. It's really neither of those. So

maybe I'm hallucinating or maybe I just

I don't know what to do with it. But

they do nothing with it. So this is I

think why we're at an interesting point.

And I'll pause here and get you to

reflect when we talked a few minutes ago

about how close are we to disclosure or confirmation.

confirmation.

Just like what happened with Whitley

Strier's front cover of Communion, I'm

still running into people who had

bizarre experiences where they somehow

had a feeling of familiarity when they

saw that front cover.

Now take the fact that this notion of

disclosure, in other words, that there's

this interaction with non-human

intelligence is happening in our society

and has been happening throughout our

history. As we broaden the numbers of

people, this swast within our society

that are aware of that, how many more

people are going to have splinters of

awareness begin to arise to the surface

that they begin to do further inquiry

into what happened to me that one time?

because we're talking about potentially

millions of people, right? Who knows,

maybe even billions. We don't know this

number. This is part of the problem. But

what I'm saying is that's interesting in

itself because as we get broader

purchase, even if not greater depth than

purchase, that means there's that many

more people across the world that begin

to maybe have just little hints of

memories coming up, shards of memory

coming up that make them inquire further

and that might add to our understanding

of what's actually been going on.

It's a little disturbing to think about

in some ways because you are acknowledging

acknowledging

a potential state of reality that uh has

been hidden obscured from population at

large and the kind of shock that that

might cause for it to suddenly bubble to

the surface if that kind of contact has

been uh quite widespread

it could be quite jarring. You I'm

reminded a little bit of the recent news

that we heard from Dr. after Beatatric

Frial and the uh observation the

preliminary observation of potentially

up to 100,000 transient objects in some

sort of uh orbit geocynchronous orbit

with Earth uh before the launch of

Sputnik. So you have a shockingly high

number of objects there that were just

always present around the Earth before

we were launching satellites. And so

it's a it's a similar correlary there.

There there could could be this constant

presence in the human experience and and

really in reality itself I don't want to

be too anthropocentric it could permeate

all aspects of what we deem conventional

reality but it is below the surface and

we have not calibrated our attention to

be able to acknowledge that and so it

might be an event uh an accounting a

picture I think art is probably one of

the greatest uh catalysts to to this

kind of expression and this kind of

remembering is you know that this

awakening could very well happen through

those avenues. Uh I certainly have

experienced something similar to that

when at a concert or an art gallery just

observing something and going wait you

know how do I know this? Why is this

familiar to me? And then there's this

grand uh evocation, this this awakening

inside of me that that responds to that

knowing even if I don't explicitly

understand what it is, but I have a

visceral physical response to it. And so

I think that that is a very real

possibility. And I don't I think we we

need to be careful not to discount that

that could be a big factor in ultimately

sort of that that the full disclosure

that that ultimate revelation that may occur.

occur.

>> Yeah. Another interesting implication to

think about is related to something that

Whitley Stuber has said more recently.

Now, first of all, Whitley has said many

things over decades because he's had a

long time to reflect on these things and

he's gone in many different meandering

directions. But one thing he has talked

about more recently is that he said this

sort of as a cautionary tale that we

should be at least thoughtful about what

we want here. Because from his

perspective, when we acknowledge this as

a collective, we actually create a

grounding for it to more easily come

into our reality and co-dwell with our

reality almost like a merging of

dimensions. And from that

consciousnesscentric perspective, if

it's all about what's arising from

consciousness, then sometimes what can

happen is based on what you can conceive

can happen. So if consensus reality, as

I've suggested a few times now, is

actually arising as a byproduct of our

shared collective consciousness. What

happens when our shared collective

consciousness acknowledges that these

beings exist? Does that create a bridge

for them to come in more fully? Do they

only come in through liinal type states

because of some limitation that they are

trying to address? And this raises

really interesting questions. And the

notion of acknowledging something might

not be as simple as it seems. It might

not be just about okay, finally we've

acknowledged this as true. It might be

that when a certain degree of the

population accepts this as real that

that actually changes the nature of our

reality itself. This is something we at

least have to consider when we think

about a consciousness ccentric kind of

understanding of reality.

Now, speaking of this notion of the way

that these beings come in, the way that

they interact with us, I think now would

be a good point to bring into the

picture something I've talked about

before, which is why different people

have different preferences for how they

want to pitch how the phenomenon is

manifesting. So there are people that

are maybe in academic circles in the

humanities, people I know they're

friends of mine, scholars who describe

this as happening in a kind of liinal

zone in an imaginal realm. Meaning it's

not dream, it's not the real physical

world. It's some other third realm. Just

like Starbucks was the third place you

could go besides work and home. This is

a additional realm that people can

inhabit. They can go to. It's all

virtual basically though. and that there

isn't bleedth through between our

physical reality and these imaginal

realms. And many of these writers will

say this is exactly why we see both a

really prevalent history of these beings

interacting with people but so little

actual tangible evidence. They would say

that points to the fact this is actually

happening in an imaginal realm and the

people it's happening to just aren't

able to really clarify that. And we have

a lack of understanding in modern

society that there are these other

realms that coexist with ours, but they

are seen as separate.

Then there are friends of mine who are

experiencers and even abductees from the

'9s and whatnot who really really want

somebody in a position of authority to

say you were right. We were wrong. This

is real. This happened and we need to

apologize to you. Now, we can understand

from a psychological point of view and

be sympathetic to that desire for that

to happen. And I've heard some of those

people say, "No, they know it's real."

And what they mean by that is they know

it's physical. They know it's here. In

fact, I've even had some of those people

say to me, "I think it's all happening

here." I don't disagree with that. The

question is what is here and what is

real? This is the real question. And I

think we have to be careful, and I

addressed this in my talk at Archives of

the Impossible earlier this year. We

have to be careful not to sell the

opportunity short here because I think

we're being invited to a much broader,

deeper, vast understanding of what

reality is and who we are as agents of

its construction ultimately as fragments

of source consciousness. And so when you

look at all the challenges we're facing,

some of which I'll get into because it's

related here, this opening here, this

opportunity might allow us to finally

address that in a way that could really

change things and could finally put our

human civilization onto a better track.

But let me just get you to reflect on

that. When you've heard different people

again, even people you've interviewed on

CAB and that you've talked to personally

who really want to be believed, they

want to demonstrate that they're not

psychologically hallucinating, that they

are grounded people. But at the same

time, the very nature of the experiences

is such that you can't get away from the

fact that it is weird. In fact, you

know, people like Jacqu Vallay has said

if it sounds too conventional, he tends

to doubt it. It's only if it's highly

strange or has elements of that that he

takes it more seriously. So, how do you

reflect on that in your time in eupfology?

eupfology?

>> Well, I've observed that it can be

incredibly isolating and that, you know,

we are a very social species. We we want

communion with one another. We want to

be together. Uh we feel generally safer

together. Uh and for individuals that

have this experience, they you hear the

a common refrain, you know, I don't want

to talk about it. I can't share this

with many people.

uh this really makes me uncomfortable,

makes other people uncomfortable. And so

what they do is they they they repress

that. They don't share it. And then they

kind of try to go about their day

day-to-day life pretending as as if

nothing ever happens. Obviously, that's

very difficult to do. You and I both

know that repression isn't going to be

very successful. It's going to bubble up

in other ways. And so there's a a deep

need to have some validation of the

experience and to be uh reintegrated

with the human family and accepted in

the human family that that experience

was in fact real and genuine. And you

know there's a deep sadness to that and

I find um those that have the the

perspective that this is all imaginal

you know I understand why they would

hate hate that perspective. It's kind of

maybe the prevailing way of thinking

about these experiences in our modern

world. But it also is very much an arms

length. You know, it's it's let let's

keep this away because I don't want it

to penetrate the uh sort of space that I

the carefully constructed space that

I've made for myself uh and for the

world that we find ourselves in. And so

we we keep that at our arms length

trying to be a little bit more

comfortable and and so that there's a

there's a visible discomfort that people

from that perspective have when when you

put both of these individuals in the

same space, right? So you have the that

those that want to keep at arms length

and they they are literally physically

confronted with a person who has had an

experience and you can see it. I know

you've seen it many times. Uh they just

don't it's like the brain starts

breaking. they don't know how to process

that. And then but but there there is a

certain point at which through the

dialogue that the the human capacity for

compassion actually does break through.

It breaks that that impass and so that

the two can connect in a way that that

transcends their their prior

predelections. Right? So the the the

person who's guarded and doesn't want to

share their experience finds they can

more openly share the experience. And

the person who's guarded and doesn't

want to doesn't want the experience to

enter into their worldview finds that

well actually it's starting to seep into

my worldview. And so you you see that

interplay take place and it's a really

beautiful thing. And it's just it's one

expression I think of a of a dialogue

which really takes place with anyone

who's trying to wrestle with what all

this means right now. You know, the

average person observing this and has

been exposed to this content is is going

through that same inner dialogue between

I want I I think this is real and I

really trust what these people are

saying, but I also want to keep at arms

length. This is pretty strange to me.

And so over time, those two things are

kind of blending together and there it

does. It's giving birth to something

new. And I think we just have to be able

to give that some purchase because like

you said about uh sort of planning for

that. I I thought of this, you know,

sort of scenario where, you know, do you

build the space ports before you launch

the spaceships or do you do you build

the space ports once you know the

spaceships are there so they have a

place to land? You know, it can be

either one, but you know, they're sort

of both aspirational and the aspiration

is connection. You're either connecting

with the beyond or the beyond is coming

to connect with you. And so it's uh but

you have to give it that anchor point.

You have to give it that that purchase.

So I really love that. It's fascinating

and it does speak to the way in which

this topic does begin to transform the

way we understand the world and ourselves.

ourselves.

>> Absolutely. And speaking of how we

understand the world and ourselves, when

we think about this strange relationship

that we have with the dream world,

something I have been reflecting on is

that this is well understood in our

culture that major scientific

breakthroughs or great works of art have

been inspired often people say by some

content that arose in a dream. We've had

people like Gary Nolan say that when

he's doing cancer research and he's

stuck at a really difficult impass, he

will go to sleep but first will hold in

his mind's awareness the conundrum he's

trying to resolve and then often

overnight some sort of inspiration will

arise that will help him practically do

that. Now that's going to very much tie

into shamanic perspectives that I'm

going to discuss later. But first of

all, we should recognize that because

many people have been influenced or

inspired by information coming through

dreams. I want to point out here again

that it's not just the beings that might

be more towards the malevolent or

selfish side that might want to fragment

people's consciousness and do things

with them and to them in kind of a

liinal state that we don't well

understand and that keeps it out of

society's awareness. But so too with the

really benevolent ascendant beings, I

think they are constantly trying to

inspire us. They are trying to if

anything augment the parts of us that

are reaching for something greater and

beyond ourselves, but without directly

influencing or manipulating us. They're

just working with our best intentions

basically. And they are the ones that

speak to us through synchronicities and

whatnot in our dreams. Now there's

additional questions around the

multi-dimensional self and the fact that

we all have a higher self that we are in

contact with I would say and that a lot

of that also happens through dreams

partly because we loosen the range of

reality when we're dreaming. We don't

demand that it adhereed to a certain

kind of narrow parameter and that allows

things to come in that otherwise

wouldn't come including transrational

kind of logic as well which I think

relates to high strangeness in ways that

this is trying to break us out of the

prison of physicalism in the way that we

have been thinking. I think this is

going on as well. So this raises

questions around the nature of knowledge

altogether. Perhaps it's always coming

through some sort of interdimensional

kind of interface and that can happen

both through non-ordinary states through

dream states through meditation or

through these beings showing up and

finding a way to show up in our waking

state. This might even be a

technological capacity they have. We are

just at the very beginning of

understanding this. Another case I can

think of here to help people understand

how this is really interesting and also

very present in the literature. We think

about the case of Yosi Ronin, a friend

of mine from Israel. He had an

experience in his apartment or his

brother's apartment in Los Angeles

decades ago where he was having a dream

with these very friendly, curious and

strange looking, clearly alien beings

were interacting with him. His guard was

down. His fight orflight mechanism was

down because he's in a dream state.

don't feel the same bodily fear. Then he

woke up, was reflecting on that

beautiful dream, suddenly heard sounds

in the front room, thought the house was

being invaded, that you know, burglars

were breaking into the apartment. Goes

into the front room and finds that those

same beings from his dream state were

now in his waking state. His reaction

was completely different. Horror,

terror, this can't be good, is this even

real? Am I going crazy? all these things

that come up because of the different

way that we show up in the waking state

which is already a hint by the way to

what we've talked about earlier where we

have different aspects of us to step to

the four. We sometimes don't think about

ourselves as a different kind of persona

in dream, but it's worth thinking about

here in terms of how differently we

respond. But if nothing else, we don't

have the evolutionarily

derived bodily pressures to defend

ourselves, this fight orflight

mechanism. But that's an example of

somebody who literally had both happen.

And this, I think, speaks to the fact

that clearly things are not as they seem

or not as we've understood them to be

because we have this clear delineation.

Sure, you had a dream. That's great. Or

sure, this happened in real life. We

have very few times where this bleeds

through like this so so clearly. But

what we're getting to here is trying to

expand our understanding of what we are.

And there are many experiencers who have

pointed to this. and they'll say one of

the reasons why experiencers voices need

to be championed more in the disclosure

conversation is not just because they

are the ones who've had the contact with

the beings but it's also because they

are further along in understanding we

are much more than we've been sold that

we have immense capacity here that we

are reality wielders to some degree they

are more tapped into that now because

they're further along in that often that

has resulted in ridicule and scoff and

all that comes with that. But this is

part of the reason why we need to have

these conversations because it's not

just about hearing firsthand from people

who have encountered the beings. It's

about understanding human potential at a

more realized kind of level.

Now, what this really comes down to as

well is this iceberg metaphor that when

you picture that proverbial iceberg

image, right, where there's a little bit

above the water and there's a massive

section of it below the water. much more

below the water than there is above the

water. This is partly why it's so

dangerous to ships like the Titanic

historically. But this very much speaks

to the nature of the self. And this is

something you and I have talked about

when we've talked about idealism before.

This notion that the conscious self is

just the part the ego that's the part

that's sticking above the water. Below

that is a much broader segment which is

the unconscious self or the part that we

don't usually have access to but that we

get communication from through dreams

and things like that. So things will

populate in the form of dreams from the

subconscious. That's one of the chief

ways that it actually communicates and

that's why Carl Jung and people have

said we should pay attention to our

dreams even while secular scientists are

saying it's total hogwash. It's just a

brain working out excess energy or

something. There's no meaning behind it.

Of course in shamanic and indigenous

cultures they have what's called big

dreams a completely different

understanding of dreaming

and then beyond that right beyond the

larger part of the unconscious self that

I think by the way is the bridge to the

higher self

you also have this sense that even below

that so you've gone from the island

sticking above the water to the much

larger segment below but eventually that

connecting with the bedrock of the earth

and that being like the collective

unconscious and that there's actually a

stream of information and communication

that can happen all the way up and down.

And our task I would suggest and

something I've been really working on is

how to increase the capacity of the flow

through from those different aspects of

the self. And I would say one of the

reasons why people come away from these

experiences changed and wanting to live

differently like having their worldview

shift is not just because they've seen

beings who are benevolent and teach them

that we should love the earth and all

those things but it's because they

themselves have had something

reconnected in themselves. Right? In the

literature they often say being with

these beings was like going home. I was

returning to source. People are tearful

when they're recounting these

experiences. very much like an NDE,

which gets back to this notion that

these beings are coming from subsuming

realms and that somehow they remind us

of and reconnect us to something that's

always been there that we've just become

forgetful of. So, when you reflect on

that and the way that these encounters,

not suggesting they're all positive this

way, but the ones that are have such

mirroring with near-death experiences

and seem to point to some deep awareness

than us, even it's mostly unconscious,

that we are from something much deeper,

much older, and that we are much more

central to the nature of reality than

we've been sold so far.

Well, I think about the iceberg analogy

that that you have there and and what

you observe above the surface of the

water and and and the mere act of of

continuous observation. You know, if

you're the if you're thinking from the

iceberg's perspective for a second here,

uh you might think after a while that

that that's all that you are. What

whatever I whatever is above the surface

is all that you are because that is what

is being acknowledged. Right? So the

those that observe are saying that this

is you. You know, you're you're just

this this surface level thing and and

after a while you forget that this that

this deeper aspect this deeper broader

aspect of you exists at all. And so

the obs the others observing you and

intersecting with your life

in a way that is non-ordinary, right? So

they're observing you in ways that that

is not the the normal way people observe

you. That that brings to the forefront

this reality that there is this other

aspect of you that you have been

completely oblivious to that has been

there all along. And so that then begins to

catalyze a kind of transformation within

the self where you're now looking to

plum the depths that you were not

previously aware of and to integrate

those depths into the the surface. So

you're you're going to be bringing that

depth up to the surface and bringing the

surface down to the depth and back and

so on and so so forth. And so I think

these encounters are ways in which they

they prompt that kind of uh uh deeper

realization of who we are ultimately

down to that that bedrock connection to

to to everything. Right? So it is this

deep deep connection to all of reality

to all of experience. And so it takes

that kind of non-ordinary

non-ordinary

uh type of intelligence that that type

of non-ord ordinary intelligent

interaction to to prompt to catalyze

this kind of change. But you know the

sad thing about it is it's as you you

know point out with the analogy it's

it's there all along right. And so I

think all of us kind of just go about

our day-to-day and and we don't realize

this. It sort of um struck me the other

night. I was taking the dog out and uh

you know the last trip outside before

before bed bedtime and uh I stepped out

outside. There's acorns everywhere,

leaves everywhere, the wind is blowing

the trees, there are clouds in the sky,

you know, there's moisture in the air

because it's been raining a lot. And I'm

walking back to the house and I'm like,

I just observed, you know, I can't even

count the number of crazy things that

are just they're just happening in my

experience. Like these these are things

that are just I take for granted as part

of everyday life normal, but they're

each each of them is its own miracle

like truly. And so I think that is an

example of how when you begin to play

with these ideas that they start

permeating the way in which you

experience the world. And so that that

that then changes. It's like you know we

talked about limental frames that you're

putting on a different set of frames to

begin seeing the the world as it is. And

that then influences how you live and

how you interact. So it's um it's a lot

to take in. Like we've talked about many

times. It's incredibly complex because I

don't want to say that these beings are

uh I think using this the dichotomy of

saying like the beings are good, the

beings are bad like as we've talked

about many times it's just the it's it's

the wrong way to approach the entire

subject because it's the same thing as

saying taking a person and saying is the

is a person good? Is a person bad? a

person is is contains multitudes and and

we sell the person short if we say well

they're they're they're all good they're

all bad and so I think we have to be

very careful with that black and white

kind of thinking because that's just it

doesn't map to reality as we even

experience it ourselves

>> absolutely and following that thread

even when we think about the history and

legacy of abuse and we see this clear

pattern where those who have been abused

often become abusers and This is

confounding to us on the one hand

because we say surely if you've been

through abuse you'd be much less likely

to ever abuse because you've personally

experienced it. You've been the victim.

But unfortunately it doesn't work that

way. It's not that simple. And there's

more of a bleedth through between our

experiences and even in the infusing of

our identities. That's partly what I'm

getting at here. And furthermore, not

only do people have these experiences

with these beings and sometimes feel

like it feels like a memory of a past

life or another kind of identity, but

I'm thinking here of Susie Hansen's

book, and I did a POC episode on her

experience as well. The book is titled

The Dual Soul Connection because she

literally has this experience of when

she's on board the craft, a part of her

that's a gray comes to the forefront.

Now, what do we do there? So, is that a

good gray or a bad gray? Are they all

good or are they all bad? Well, this is

in a persona of a human being that we

wouldn't dare say is all good or all

bad. Why would we say that about the

gray that she identifies with as as

well? But the point is, we've already

talked about states of consciousness and

that these experiences sometimes seem to

be happening in a blended state that we

don't even have a category for in the

modern world. But furthermore that the

human psyche might be home to multiple

selves even. Right? This gets people

nervous because they start thinking

about multiple personality disorder

which is now known as dissociative

identity disorder. But this actually is

much more common than people realize.

And even people we would say are quote

unquote healthy, mentally healthy,

probably have this going on. I would say

we do for sure. And so I would say that

Susie is not actually an outlier. She's

actually someone who's had a certain

kind of experience where she's able to

recognize that she has more than one

aspect of herself.

Now, we're going to keep unpacking this,

but I just want to remind everyone if

we're all refractions from the one

original mind, then is it that much

harder to imagine that there are even

refractions within our localized version

of what we think of as the self? And to

what degree are we hallucinating the

notion of a self? I think here about

something I covered in the techniques of

transcendence class in one of the early

sessions. I talked about how science now

can demonstrate that our body knows

about a decision before we have even

made the decision. So we have the

experience of something being decided.

Now on a body scan we can see 3 seconds

beforehand that that decision has

already been made. So basically we're

hallucinating a sense of agency there.

It's more like and this is very much in

tune with the non-dual thinking. A

situation is just arising in our

awareness. We hallucinate that I am

doing it. I am deciding it. Now some

people might go I don't like that cuz it

takes agency out of my hands. And what

I'm suggesting is maybe you need to

expand what you are. Maybe the body mind

that you usually inhabit is just one

particular refraction of a much broader

and deeper self. and that some of the

agency is coming from a very different

place that we usually don't have access

to. That has been my experience. So in

addition to the sense of the

multi-dimensional self, the

multi-aspected self, I also want to

think about what this means for the

collective self because you have to

realize when you take seriously this

notion that all manifestations are

basically projections or refractions of

the original oneness of the one mind,

then you recognize that just like Donald

Hoffman has suggested that you can have

one notion of the self and then you have

two people and that becomes its own kind

of monad and then it goes to a larger

organism larger organism. This is

understood that this is basically the

nature of reality. Everything is both a

thing unto itself and part of something

larger all the way up and all the way

down. So when we think about collective

human consciousness and especially

western civilization,

you can see ways that we are

demonstrating what looks like mental

proclivities that are not well adjusted,

let's say. So I've been really

fascinated by Ian McGillchrist's work

and he's done this really deep dive into

the left brain and the right brain the

differences not just in the individual

but what happens as a society when we

decide to preference one over the other.

So I would highly recommend to people

and I recommended to my class this that

his book the master and his emissary.

It's a huge book lots of nuance very

well worth getting into. And what I

would suggest is that his central

concern, which he's spoken pretty

outwardly about, is that modern western

culture has become dominated by a left

hemisphere mode of consciousness while

neglecting or marginalizing the right

hemisphere's broader integrative way of

perceiving the world. So it's not just

about two different vantage points

looking left and looking right, but with

the same mode of understanding. It's a

very different way of knowing all together.

together.

So in his perspective and again this is

based on empirical research over decades

the left hemisphere specializes in

abstraction, categorization, analysis

and control. Now think about the

disclosure conversation. How much is it

framed in those kinds of notions? It

prefers certainty. Is it real or is it

imaginable? Utility and manipulation of

parts. It focuses on what it can grasp

literally and conceptually. the right

hemisphere which should be the master.

The left hemisphere should really be a

subset a tool to help the right

hemisphere because the right hemisphere

apprehends the world as a living

interconnected whole. It's attuned to

context relationships embedded

experience and meaning. And so McGrist

argues that the west has overidentified

as a collective with the left

hemisphere's worldview. Therefore seeing

reality as mechanical, fragmented and

measurable rather than relational and

living. This shift has led to an

impoverished understanding of reality

altogether. And this has produced

reductionism in science, bureaucracy and

government and instrumental reasoning

and education and overall what you and I

have talked about several times in this

podcast. Basically the dehumanization of

experience, the alienation present in

human life.

So I want to turn on to you for some

reflections there because in addition to

what I'm suggesting here about seeing

all of reality as refractions of the

oneness, we have to be careful to

understand that as you go from the one

integrated whole into the illusion,

purposeful illusion, but still illusion

of the multitude of the plural beings

and forms that if you take too seriously

that those things are actually separate

and independent, you will kill the

organism the same way that a cancer cell

mistakes its own well-being and thinks

it can somehow kill the body without

suffering the same result themselves. So

I think this is really really important

and I think that even the high

strangeness that has confounded us

partly confounds particularly us in the

west because it stands in opposition to

this leftbrain way of understanding the

world. Shamans and indigenous cultures

have much less of a problem here. So,

let me turn it to you for some

reflections there. Not just on how the

way we apprehend the world changes what

we see and experience, but might even

lead to a really negative versus a much

more positive outcome.

>> I think a lot of people can relate to

this. I think that the day we find

ourselves in now is a day in which this

can be felt more acutely than maybe

perhaps ever before. Because many of us

spend so much of our adult lives toiling

away behind a computer screen or you

know repetitive task that society has

said you know do this and do it over and

over again. Sit in this chair do it over

and over again. This is the way that you

become actualized. And this is the way

that society itself becomes act more

actualized in the world. It allows us to

achieve our greatest aims if all of us,

you know, put our backs behind this uh

keyboard and push, right? This is sort

of the way that we've been told to

approach the world. And I think we feel

deep within ourselves. I I certainly

feel this every day, you know, that

while I'm doing this and while yes, I'm

earning a living and it's great and I'm

able to, you know, provide for my family

and all these wonderful things that that

work affords us,

it's it's severing this aspect of

ourselves from the context, as you said,

the context of the greater world in

which we live. And and we feel that

viscerally like that. You cannot live a

life doing that over and over again and

not feel that in a very acute way. This divorce

divorce

between the world as it is and the world

that you've been taught it how it should

be. And so I think we maybe we're at a

time where we're able to see this in a

way that we've not been able to before.

Maybe this is uh becoming more present

to us uh just because we we've gone so

far in one direction that it's it's just

it's so obviously grotesque now that

we're we're asking ourselves surely

there's a better way. Surely there's a

better way. You know, there was a

product that was released today and I

got a text from my brother about this.

It was a is a humanoid robot, right? The

humanoid robot. We're all talking about

robots now and you know the future is

robotic and this kind of thing. Amazon

just talked about how they're going to

be replacing a lot of their workforce

with robots, but this particular robot

is marketed as something that would live

in your house and help you to do, you

know, certain things. Well, come to find

out, this robot isn't autonomous. It's

not controlled by its own AI. It's it's

literally piloted by a human being

remotely. So, there's there's a remote

human pilot of this robot. And we're

like, and some people might look at that

and go, "Oh, this is fantastic." Right?

You know, here we have this uh you know,

we don't have to have an actual human in

the in the house with this person who

needs care. We have a robot and a human

can pilot the robot from somewhere else.

Not ever considering how did we get

ourselves in a situation to begin with

where we have a human isolated from

other human beings that would need this

and and have this proxy of human contact

to replace it. Like it is it is so

absurd. And so I think that kind of

absurdity, right, is what what really

shakes us out of the place we find

ourselves. So I I very much resonate

with this. I think we're in a day and

age where we might be able to make this

shift and uh and and but it but it

raises so many questions because, you

know, Darren, you know, you you and I

both know the the right side is is

completely atrophied in the world. You

know, we we have we have not learned how

to exercise that. And so I think we can

all ask the question, is there a better

way? But we really don't know how to do

that. You know, we've not been given the

tools and the skills to to express that

side of ourselves and find that better

way, chart that better path. So it's

it's really challenging.

There's so much combat here. There's so

much violence we do to each other, even

just the way we talk to each other.

There's so much miscommunication. And

there's so many ways that we look like a

body suffering from a massive autoimmune

disorder. That's what it looked like to

me. And once you see it that way, you

can't not see it that way. But I think

too about how, you know, in light of

what we were talking about, I think

often of the experience that John Mack

had, not just because of the experience

John Mack had, but also because of how

John Mack represented all of us at a

particular moment in time in the West.

He was a well- reggarded academic and

clinician who had built up a strong

reputation, had won a Pulitzer Prize for

a book that he had written, and then

suddenly got tossed into the ring with

this notion of alien abductees.

To his credit, he wrestled with it and

said, "These people seem to be reporting

a quote unquote real experience. It

doesn't fit with my worldview." But

rather than tossing it out because of

that, he said, "My worldview must expand

to make sense of this because this is

clearly real." Let's be honest, many

people would not do that. Many people

today reject this phenomenon because it

doesn't fit with their worldview.

And then he thought, "How can I possibly

make sense of this?" And eventually

after struggling, he was told by some

people, you should go speak with some

shamans. You should go speak with some

indigenous people. He did. And as you

and I have discussed before, he found that this very comfortably fit within

that this very comfortably fit within their worldview. There was not

their worldview. There was not ontological shock because it was never

ontological shock because it was never ontologically distinct to begin with

ontologically distinct to begin with from their point of view. Now, what this

from their point of view. Now, what this also points to though is not just an

also points to though is not just an understanding of how these beings can be

understanding of how these beings can be interdimensional and in relationship to

interdimensional and in relationship to us, but that we ourselves are

us, but that we ourselves are interdimensional and that we can cross

interdimensional and that we can cross over these thresholds. This is a key

over these thresholds. This is a key invitation here. And this speaks to what

invitation here. And this speaks to what I was saying a while ago about this is

I was saying a while ago about this is the invitation on the table. Let's not

the invitation on the table. Let's not sell it short. This is not just about

sell it short. This is not just about accepting that technologically advanced

accepting that technologically advanced NHI are here. It's about recognizing we

NHI are here. It's about recognizing we have always been much more than we

have always been much more than we recognize. And our culture of all the

recognize. And our culture of all the cultures in history is probably

cultures in history is probably minimizing us and reducing us more than

minimizing us and reducing us more than ever before in history. And that exactly

ever before in history. And that exactly explains why we have this paradox in

explains why we have this paradox in modern life where we have more

modern life where we have more technological capacity and capacity to

technological capacity and capacity to connect via the internet and whatnot and

connect via the internet and whatnot and social media and cell phones than we've

social media and cell phones than we've ever had before and yet feel more

ever had before and yet feel more disconnected than ever. And to your

disconnected than ever. And to your point about robots being remotely

point about robots being remotely guided, this speaks to the absurdity of

guided, this speaks to the absurdity of the entire endeavor. when you start

the entire endeavor. when you start trying to frame the world through a

trying to frame the world through a leftbrain perspective where everything

leftbrain perspective where everything is a bunch of parts with no whole of

is a bunch of parts with no whole of which they are a part. Now this said I

which they are a part. Now this said I want to touch on something here as we

want to touch on something here as we get towards the back part of the episode

get towards the back part of the episode here that speaks to what I hinted at

here that speaks to what I hinted at earlier and you also referenced it in

earlier and you also referenced it in the very beginning of the episode. This

the very beginning of the episode. This notion that we right now in how we

notion that we right now in how we understand ourselves to be Darren and

understand ourselves to be Darren and Nathan are actually probably a

Nathan are actually probably a multiplicity of beings. And I don't just

multiplicity of beings. And I don't just mean the left brain and the right brain

mean the left brain and the right brain that basically experience the world very

that basically experience the world very differently. And just like I mentioned

differently. And just like I mentioned that we kind of hallucinate a sense of

that we kind of hallucinate a sense of agency that really it's better to say

agency that really it's better to say something's arising in our awareness and

something's arising in our awareness and we say I did it. The question is who's I

we say I did it. The question is who's I and at what point is it done? There's

and at what point is it done? There's also this question of to what extent are

also this question of to what extent are we having basically a forum of voices

we having basically a forum of voices present within us and then the executive

present within us and then the executive ego harmonizes those voices. most of the

ego harmonizes those voices. most of the time and gives us one overarching sense

time and gives us one overarching sense of harmonious self. But when we actually

of harmonious self. But when we actually look at how to help people, even

look at how to help people, even therapists have recognized this and this

therapists have recognized this and this has emerged in this movement called IFS,

has emerged in this movement called IFS, which stands for internal family systems

which stands for internal family systems where people might go, "Oh yeah, that

where people might go, "Oh yeah, that sounds good." So they basically work on

sounds good." So they basically work on therapy and therapeutic approaches to

therapy and therapeutic approaches to families. And that's actually not what

families. And that's actually not what it is. This is a system founded by

it is. This is a system founded by Richard Schwarz in the 1980s and it's

Richard Schwarz in the 1980s and it's grounded in the idea that the human

grounded in the idea that the human psyche is naturally multiple not

psyche is naturally multiple not singular and that this inner

singular and that this inner multiplicity is both normal and healthy

multiplicity is both normal and healthy when properly understood.

when properly understood. So this raises all sorts of implications

So this raises all sorts of implications because again we want to remember we're

because again we want to remember we're framing this within a consciousness

framing this within a consciousness centric perspective. So what we

centric perspective. So what we basically see is refractions upon

basically see is refractions upon refractions upon refractions not just of

refractions upon refractions not just of dimensions of reality like intersecting

dimensions of reality like intersecting Chinese boxes like I described before

Chinese boxes like I described before but even that we ourselves are a

but even that we ourselves are a multiplicity

multiplicity and this is fascinating when we think

and this is fascinating when we think about something that you and I have

about something that you and I have covered a lot which is religious

covered a lot which is religious history, religious tradition. You and I

history, religious tradition. You and I both know that notions like possession

both know that notions like possession and oppression are part of Christian

and oppression are part of Christian history.

history. Now modern secular people might say

Now modern secular people might say let's get rid of all that silly

let's get rid of all that silly possession oppression stuff. This IFS

possession oppression stuff. This IFS system and the people on the cutting

system and the people on the cutting edge of it would say not so fast because

edge of it would say not so fast because in addition to finding that there's a

in addition to finding that there's a multiplicity of personas within the self

multiplicity of personas within the self even people we would say are healthy.

even people we would say are healthy. This is not an outlier. But the

This is not an outlier. But the furthermore there are some people for

furthermore there are some people for instance in this book that I highly

instance in this book that I highly recommend called the others within us

recommend called the others within us that speaks to the notion that sometimes

that speaks to the notion that sometimes different kinds of intelligence

different kinds of intelligence different kinds of personas can attach

different kinds of personas can attach to us can attach to our energetic

to us can attach to our energetic housing if you will and codewell with us

housing if you will and codewell with us and that we too in this therapeutic

and that we too in this therapeutic approach want to help them move on. But

approach want to help them move on. But rather than treating them like the enemy

rather than treating them like the enemy and evil incarnate, we instead invite

and evil incarnate, we instead invite them to a process of reintegration

them to a process of reintegration within the wholeness themselves as we

within the wholeness themselves as we also seek to reintegrate and become more

also seek to reintegrate and become more whole as a collection of personas within

whole as a collection of personas within a self. I'd like to get you to reflect

a self. I'd like to get you to reflect on that because it has vast implications

on that because it has vast implications for the nature of the reality that we're

for the nature of the reality that we're in and also how we might understand the

in and also how we might understand the phenomenon.

phenomenon. >> I think the initial reaction is it makes

>> I think the initial reaction is it makes me a little bit squeamish, right?

me a little bit squeamish, right? there's all these different

there's all these different personalities uh residing within the

personalities uh residing within the self. Uh that that's I think a normal

self. Uh that that's I think a normal reaction to to hearing that. But we know

reaction to to hearing that. But we know empirically that this is the case. We

empirically that this is the case. We know this from studies where people have

know this from studies where people have had uh damage to the brain and and

had uh damage to the brain and and different personalities, you know, not

different personalities, you know, not only manifest themselves but but

only manifest themselves but but experience the world in different ways.

experience the world in different ways. So they they literally some some cases

So they they literally some some cases they can't see even though they they

they can't see even though they they have perfectly healthy eyes or they

have perfectly healthy eyes or they can't smell in the same way even a

can't smell in the same way even a perfectly good sense of smell. Um so

perfectly good sense of smell. Um so this is certainly a reality uh present

this is certainly a reality uh present within the self. But but I want to take

within the self. But but I want to take that concept a little bit further even

that concept a little bit further even that in the sense that how many how many

that in the sense that how many how many people on average would you say you you

people on average would you say you you have a a a mental model of in the world

have a a a mental model of in the world right uh you probably have I think I

right uh you probably have I think I look I looked this up it's a few hundred

look I looked this up it's a few hundred people that you kind of have a mental

people that you kind of have a mental model of of the world and certainly we

model of of the world and certainly we can recognize thousands of faces that's

can recognize thousands of faces that's also been shown on average what I'm

also been shown on average what I'm getting at here is that we're We're

getting at here is that we're We're adept at at modeling entire

adept at at modeling entire personalities

personalities just based on, you know, a few

just based on, you know, a few interactions with individuals. We were

interactions with individuals. We were we create a model of them inside of

we create a model of them inside of ourselves. And I think where we've gone

ourselves. And I think where we've gone where we've steered wrong a little bit

where we've steered wrong a little bit here is thinking that that that they

here is thinking that that that they live out there and they don't live in

live out there and they don't live in here. But if but the truth of the matter

here. But if but the truth of the matter is those those models, those people,

is those those models, those people, they only live in here, right? They only

they only live in here, right? They only live inside of you because that your

live inside of you because that your experience, your senses is the is all

experience, your senses is the is all that we have. It's the only thing that

that we have. It's the only thing that we have connecting us to reality. And so

we have connecting us to reality. And so in in an abstract way, we can take this

in in an abstract way, we can take this concept that we contain multiple

concept that we contain multiple personalities

personalities uh to literally mean all the

uh to literally mean all the personalities that you happen to know,

personalities that you happen to know, you you you contain them. They literally

you you you contain them. They literally reside in you. And I've heard this put

reside in you. And I've heard this put differently in that how many versions of

differently in that how many versions of you uh exist and it's it's as many

you uh exist and it's it's as many versions of you as as people that you

versions of you as as people that you know because every person that knows you

know because every person that knows you has a different version of you and then

has a different version of you and then there there's one more version that

there there's one more version that that's the version that you have of

that's the version that you have of yourself right so this concept uh I

yourself right so this concept uh I think while at first glance feels a

think while at first glance feels a little bit off-putting and strange and

little bit off-putting and strange and scary if we really start to explore it

scary if we really start to explore it further in and and map it onto our lived

further in and and map it onto our lived experience, we we can come to a place to

experience, we we can come to a place to to realize that this isn't scary. This

to realize that this isn't scary. This isn't abnormal. This is in fact how we

isn't abnormal. This is in fact how we interact with the world. You know, we

interact with the world. You know, we have these models of personalities all

have these models of personalities all the time and we have conversations with

the time and we have conversations with them, right? If you have if you have

them, right? If you have if you have friendships, if you have relationships,

friendships, if you have relationships, you have conversations with these

you have conversations with these individuals without them being in the

individuals without them being in the room. you think, well, how would they

room. you think, well, how would they react to this or how are they going to

react to this or how are they going to take this information or, you know, what

take this information or, you know, what would they say in this situation? So,

would they say in this situation? So, this happens all the time. And I think

this happens all the time. And I think that that's a good correlary to what

that that's a good correlary to what we're getting at here. Uh, and and then

we're getting at here. Uh, and and then you can take this and you can then go

you can take this and you can then go you can go you can go expansive with it.

you can go you can go expansive with it. You can go up and you can go down. You

You can go up and you can go down. You can go outside of human uh to nonhuman

can go outside of human uh to nonhuman uh and and everything in between because

uh and and everything in between because all of it takes place within the realm

all of it takes place within the realm of experience. And and I think that is

of experience. And and I think that is where it gets truly exciting because

where it gets truly exciting because then you become kind of a uh an explorer

then you become kind of a uh an explorer an explorer of conscious expression. And

an explorer of conscious expression. And you can navigate you can navigate just

you can navigate you can navigate just like you can you can put pins on a map.

like you can you can put pins on a map. You can put you can you can go and visit

You can put you can you can go and visit these different places through the

these different places through the aspect of of transferring your mind to

aspect of of transferring your mind to those experiences. And and it's you know

those experiences. And and it's you know it sounds a little bit crazy but we do

it sounds a little bit crazy but we do it all the time. We do it all the time.

it all the time. We do it all the time. And I think it's a lot more normal than

And I think it's a lot more normal than we might want to re might want to

we might want to re might want to acknowledge.

acknowledge. >> That's it. I mean, that is what it comes

>> That's it. I mean, that is what it comes down to is that we're the fish swimming

down to is that we're the fish swimming in the water that we no longer recognize

in the water that we no longer recognize as water because it's our medium of

as water because it's our medium of experience. Points that people like

experience. Points that people like Bernardo Castro will make is that even

Bernardo Castro will make is that even when you're doing scientific

when you're doing scientific investigation, all of that is arising

investigation, all of that is arising within your conscious awareness. So, we

within your conscious awareness. So, we cannot separate the environment from

cannot separate the environment from ourselves and our experience of the

ourselves and our experience of the environment. That's all one blended hole

environment. That's all one blended hole basically.

basically. And this also relates to what I was

And this also relates to what I was referencing earlier with abuse where we

referencing earlier with abuse where we say that it's really unfortunate and

say that it's really unfortunate and hard to understand how someone who is

hard to understand how someone who is abused would become an abuser themselves

abused would become an abuser themselves because they've had firsthand experience

because they've had firsthand experience as a victim. Why would they choose to

as a victim. Why would they choose to extend that?

extend that? Now this creates all sorts of strange

Now this creates all sorts of strange conundrums around how we think about

conundrums around how we think about personal responsibility. What is

personal responsibility. What is personal? Right? This is the question.

personal? Right? This is the question. And the reason why this is interesting

And the reason why this is interesting and complex is that what they have found

and complex is that what they have found is that when people are abused,

is that when people are abused, especially if it's really intense, for

especially if it's really intense, for instance, sexual abuse, they will

instance, sexual abuse, they will actually disassociate out of the

actually disassociate out of the experience. They might experience it the

experience. They might experience it the first time, then they learn as a skill

first time, then they learn as a skill that's very helpful in the moment. It's

that's very helpful in the moment. It's a survival skill to basically not be in

a survival skill to basically not be in their body when it's happening. even to

their body when it's happening. even to the point where people are interviewed

the point where people are interviewed later on and they literally have no

later on and they literally have no memory from one refraction of the self

memory from one refraction of the self right within this community of selves

right within this community of selves basically. But furthermore, what happens

basically. But furthermore, what happens is I want to use an analogy here. When I

is I want to use an analogy here. When I lived in California, there was this

lived in California, there was this deciduous tree in my backyard that was

deciduous tree in my backyard that was unique because what would happen is some

unique because what would happen is some of the leaves every year would turn

of the leaves every year would turn yellow and brown and fall off where the

yellow and brown and fall off where the rest of the leaves stayed green. And so

rest of the leaves stayed green. And so basically what happens is the toxins

basically what happens is the toxins that the tree absorbs over time get sent

that the tree absorbs over time get sent to these specific leaves and they

to these specific leaves and they atrophy and fall off while the rest of

atrophy and fall off while the rest of the tree can stay alive and healthy. So

the tree can stay alive and healthy. So it's an interesting tree to have. And

it's an interesting tree to have. And I'm referencing this because what we

I'm referencing this because what we have found happens is that because again

have found happens is that because again there's a porous boundary between us and

there's a porous boundary between us and other people which ultimately of course

other people which ultimately of course metaphysically are all aspects of the

metaphysically are all aspects of the same one being. Because of that, what

same one being. Because of that, what happens is when someone's abused, what

happens is when someone's abused, what sometimes happens is that energetic

sometimes happens is that energetic signature, and it's easier to think

signature, and it's easier to think about it as a signature, get away from

about it as a signature, get away from this concretized notion of selves, an

this concretized notion of selves, an energy comes in and basically just like

energy comes in and basically just like what that tree did, the person using

what that tree did, the person using that in air quotes, takes that energy

that in air quotes, takes that energy and sends it into one persona,

and sends it into one persona, concretizes it into one persona that

concretizes it into one persona that eats up, if you will, all of that toxic

eats up, if you will, all of that toxic negativity.

negativity. Now that part of that person now exists

Now that part of that person now exists as an abuser because that energetic

as an abuser because that energetic signature has now found a home in the

signature has now found a home in the new person. This is not to simply say

new person. This is not to simply say therefore we shouldn't have any notion

therefore we shouldn't have any notion of personal responsibility. I'm not

of personal responsibility. I'm not saying that. But I am saying it's much

saying that. But I am saying it's much more complicated than we realize.

more complicated than we realize. And what'll often happen and when people

And what'll often happen and when people are doing therapy with people who are

are doing therapy with people who are trying to create harmony and again this

trying to create harmony and again this is the point. It's not about getting rid

is the point. It's not about getting rid of these other personas because we all

of these other personas because we all have it. That is actually a healthy part

have it. That is actually a healthy part of being a functioning human being. And

of being a functioning human being. And I would argue this goes all the way up

I would argue this goes all the way up and all the way down. Just like turtles,

and all the way down. Just like turtles, this is the nature of reality.

this is the nature of reality. Multiplicity of cells across dimensions

Multiplicity of cells across dimensions and fractal layers. But for these people

and fractal layers. But for these people that are trying to resolve and integrate

that are trying to resolve and integrate these aspects, what will happen is

these aspects, what will happen is you'll have this demure middle-aged

you'll have this demure middle-aged woman who's very soft-spoken and very

woman who's very soft-spoken and very kind, who's nervous about letting that

kind, who's nervous about letting that persona come to the four because it

persona come to the four because it curses and it's cruel and it's

curses and it's cruel and it's mean-spirited because it's the signature

mean-spirited because it's the signature of that original abusing kind of

of that original abusing kind of situation. But a good therapist will

situation. But a good therapist will say, "Please feel free. Let that come

say, "Please feel free. Let that come forward. Let's just let them talk." And

forward. Let's just let them talk." And eventually you see him basically in this

eventually you see him basically in this one situation help encourage that

one situation help encourage that persona to open up to the light to

persona to open up to the light to literally do something like can you

literally do something like can you visualize light above you can you feel

visualize light above you can you feel warmth can you reach towards that he's

warmth can you reach towards that he's saying this to a disincarnate entity

saying this to a disincarnate entity right the way we would frame it but it

right the way we would frame it but it still works and eventually they are

still works and eventually they are convinced that they were lied to

convinced that they were lied to themselves they are not this dark

themselves they are not this dark individual that's forever on the evil

individual that's forever on the evil side they have been confused and abused

side they have been confused and abused they are the result of abuse and

they are the result of abuse and fragmentation and separation. And by

fragmentation and separation. And by getting them to turn towards the light,

getting them to turn towards the light, they move back into a place where they

they move back into a place where they can grow and expand and reintegrate.

can grow and expand and reintegrate. Just as the person who's been plagued by

Just as the person who's been plagued by this aspect that sometimes is an aspect

this aspect that sometimes is an aspect of themselves and sometimes is just this

of themselves and sometimes is just this free floating energy that comes in in

free floating energy that comes in in what we would call in Christian

what we would call in Christian tradition a possession or an oppression

tradition a possession or an oppression or a demon. It's some sort of

or a demon. It's some sort of disincarnate entity, but we have aspects

disincarnate entity, but we have aspects of ourselves that also exist on that

of ourselves that also exist on that plane of reality too. So this really

plane of reality too. So this really asks of us a much more pluralistic

asks of us a much more pluralistic understanding of the self and of

understanding of the self and of reality. And I think again we sell

reality. And I think again we sell ourselves short if we don't at the very

ourselves short if we don't at the very least consider this implication for

least consider this implication for understanding of the phenomenon as well.

understanding of the phenomenon as well. >> Yeah. And I I want to explore that a

>> Yeah. And I I want to explore that a little bit with you because we've talked

little bit with you because we've talked I think you know broadly and kind of

I think you know broadly and kind of abstractly and about the these concepts

abstractly and about the these concepts and how can we bring this down to sort

and how can we bring this down to sort of what we're experiencing in in the

of what we're experiencing in in the day-to-day conversation in eupfology

day-to-day conversation in eupfology itself. uh you know we we we're really

itself. uh you know we we we're really heavily focused on you know the next

heavily focused on you know the next whistleblower on the nuts and bolts

whistleblower on the nuts and bolts craft on the the government secrets uh

craft on the the government secrets uh we're not talking very much about the uh

we're not talking very much about the uh kinds of interactions that are taking

kinds of interactions that are taking place the uh abstract uh interactions in

place the uh abstract uh interactions in particular the the conflicting messages

particular the the conflicting messages that we hear uh you know we're not

that we hear uh you know we're not integrating any of that information so

integrating any of that information so you know in your mind how do we and I

you know in your mind how do we and I feel like you can see some of this

feel like you can see some of this taking place on the on the very surface

taking place on the on the very surface level of the people who are talking

level of the people who are talking about this right right now. Like you see

about this right right now. Like you see it in some of the conversations with the

it in some of the conversations with the Congress people and they're doing these

Congress people and they're doing these interviews. They sort of touch on this

interviews. They sort of touch on this just a little bit to where it's it

just a little bit to where it's it sounds like they're really saying

sounds like they're really saying something profound but but it's also

something profound but but it's also kind of playing with a lot of the tropes

kind of playing with a lot of the tropes that they're really familiar with them

that they're really familiar with them themselves. often hear this. The best

themselves. often hear this. The best example I have here is mapping angels

example I have here is mapping angels and demons onto this, right, which we

and demons onto this, right, which we talked about quite a bit. But, you know,

talked about quite a bit. But, you know, how do we take this information that

how do we take this information that this conversation and apply it to what

this conversation and apply it to what we're seeing take place in the in the in

we're seeing take place in the in the in the table conversation of eupfology

the table conversation of eupfology right now? And do you think that there

right now? And do you think that there is a path to where we can uh transmute

is a path to where we can uh transmute that into something that that is more

that into something that that is more healthy and that does make space and

healthy and that does make space and room for this understanding of of the

room for this understanding of of the world?

world? >> Well, I would say it's a good question

>> Well, I would say it's a good question and I would say that what I think will

and I would say that what I think will happen for an extended period of time,

happen for an extended period of time, sorry to disappoint the people that are

sorry to disappoint the people that are hoping for disclosure by Christmas. I

hoping for disclosure by Christmas. I think what's going to happen is the data

think what's going to happen is the data will come forward. Outlier questions

will come forward. Outlier questions will be asked like the questions I'm

will be asked like the questions I'm asking the things I'm tableabling here

asking the things I'm tableabling here and we will slowly shift our

and we will slowly shift our understanding both of ourselves what we

understanding both of ourselves what we truly are and of the nature of reality

truly are and of the nature of reality itself and at some point we will find

itself and at some point we will find this meeting point where there's enough

this meeting point where there's enough common ground that we will have a map

common ground that we will have a map that can comfortably host the territory

that can comfortably host the territory which is the phenomenon. We often talk

which is the phenomenon. We often talk about this notion that the map is not

about this notion that the map is not the territory. And you made a great

the territory. And you made a great point that when we have this mental map

point that when we have this mental map of the people in our lives, they

of the people in our lives, they basically have become an aspect of

basically have become an aspect of ourselves, right? That we reference them

ourselves, right? That we reference them based on and we interact with them and

based on and we interact with them and relate to them based on how we

relate to them based on how we understand them to be in our conscious

understand them to be in our conscious awareness. And this can lead to lazy

awareness. And this can lead to lazy relating where we no longer are updating

relating where we no longer are updating the cache of how that person is showing

the cache of how that person is showing up to today. And thus they show us

up to today. And thus they show us something really strange and we go,

something really strange and we go, "Wait a second. this doesn't fit with my

"Wait a second. this doesn't fit with my map. But I think this is interesting to

map. But I think this is interesting to think about the implications because

think about the implications because part of it comes down to this question

part of it comes down to this question of where is agency coming from. I kind

of where is agency coming from. I kind of pointed to that earlier that we

of pointed to that earlier that we already have empirical evidence that we

already have empirical evidence that we hallucinate this sense of choice that

hallucinate this sense of choice that has already showing up in our body. We

has already showing up in our body. We in harmonizing the left and right brain,

in harmonizing the left and right brain, we harmonize and hallucinate a sense of

we harmonize and hallucinate a sense of coherent self. We go beyond that and

coherent self. We go beyond that and recognize we have all of us basically

recognize we have all of us basically have these different personas which we

have these different personas which we also harmonize with an executive ego

also harmonize with an executive ego function into usually one sense of self.

function into usually one sense of self. But I just want to go a bit deeper here

But I just want to go a bit deeper here so we can really think about how much we

so we can really think about how much we are already doing this. And once we come

are already doing this. And once we come to grips with that we might turn and

to grips with that we might turn and look at the phenomenon differently

look at the phenomenon differently because right now we are othering these

because right now we are othering these beings. We are saying we're one thing

beings. We are saying we're one thing they are something very very different.

they are something very very different. And that's partly what both tickles our

And that's partly what both tickles our interest and freaks us out a little bit

interest and freaks us out a little bit is that they're so other. But when we

is that they're so other. But when we really look closely at how we make

really look closely at how we make decisions, how we live, how we function,

decisions, how we live, how we function, even the major decisions of our lives,

even the major decisions of our lives, we find it's more complex and arising

we find it's more complex and arising more from a plurality than we might

more from a plurality than we might recognize. So, for instance, when it

recognize. So, for instance, when it comes to people we're attracted to that

comes to people we're attracted to that we might end up marrying and having

we might end up marrying and having children with, there's some suggestion

children with, there's some suggestion there that there's this intelligence in

there that there's this intelligence in the bacteria in our gut that is picking

the bacteria in our gut that is picking up on the bacteria in the gut of those

up on the bacteria in the gut of those people. And that is sending up a signal

people. And that is sending up a signal to our brain. And in this interesting

to our brain. And in this interesting interlocking neural network, we

interlocking neural network, we eventually think, I like that person.

eventually think, I like that person. For some reason, I'm drawn to them. And

For some reason, I'm drawn to them. And it might be because when we go a little

it might be because when we go a little bit further into this sense of the

bit further into this sense of the collective self and nested layers of

collective self and nested layers of selves that it turns out we didn't know

selves that it turns out we didn't know this ahead of time but that person was

this ahead of time but that person was born within 200 miles of where my

born within 200 miles of where my ancestors were born. So we once again

ancestors were born. So we once again are recognizing something that feels

are recognizing something that feels familiar that we in a larger sense

familiar that we in a larger sense understand as an aspect of oursel and

understand as an aspect of oursel and this also helps us understand some of

this also helps us understand some of the racial relations we need to improve

the racial relations we need to improve in our country and around the world is

in our country and around the world is that to some degree we are othering

that to some degree we are othering people. We are not expanding that notion

people. We are not expanding that notion of a self across enough layers to where

of a self across enough layers to where we can find that they're part of us.

we can find that they're part of us. Same thing with these beings, right?

Same thing with these beings, right? This tendency to turn the world into

This tendency to turn the world into angels and demons. this black and white

angels and demons. this black and white binary option to turn the grays into all

binary option to turn the grays into all evil guys and the Nordics are all good

evil guys and the Nordics are all good or vice versa is that same tendency that

or vice versa is that same tendency that once we get beyond the notion of the

once we get beyond the notion of the self we tend to turn these things into

self we tend to turn these things into these black and white options because

these black and white options because it's less cognitive difficulty for us

it's less cognitive difficulty for us but what we actually find is all the way

but what we actually find is all the way up and all the way down just different

up and all the way down just different aspects of the self arising from this

aspects of the self arising from this one projection from the original

one projection from the original oneness. So in that sense I would say

oneness. So in that sense I would say that and this does get pretty complex

that and this does get pretty complex because when I've had these non-ordinary

because when I've had these non-ordinary state experiences I actually find that

state experiences I actually find that agency gets turned upside down and I can

agency gets turned upside down and I can experience basically Darren being the

experience basically Darren being the output valve for an agency that arises

output valve for an agency that arises at some much higher level even at a

at some much higher level even at a collective consciousness level that

collective consciousness level that still pours into this notion of what

still pours into this notion of what Darren does and what feels right to

Darren does and what feels right to Darren instincts that Darren has

Darren instincts that Darren has intuitions Darren has and fascinatingly

intuitions Darren has and fascinatingly with physics we find that if you reverse

with physics we find that if you reverse the flow of time reality works just as

the flow of time reality works just as well as a model. So even there we

well as a model. So even there we recognize that we are basically

recognize that we are basically projecting onto reality that it must

projecting onto reality that it must flow in one direction that there's cause

flow in one direction that there's cause and effect and those kinds of things.

and effect and those kinds of things. It's much more relational and dynamic is

It's much more relational and dynamic is what I'm suggesting. So that means I

what I'm suggesting. So that means I would suggest that in addressing your

would suggest that in addressing your question here, this is not just about

question here, this is not just about aliens from elsewhere coming in and

aliens from elsewhere coming in and potentially invading us as some people

potentially invading us as some people are concerned about or coinciding with

are concerned about or coinciding with us as this new harmonized co-species

us as this new harmonized co-species kind of leading of the planet. It may be

kind of leading of the planet. It may be those things, but it probably is just as

those things, but it probably is just as true to say, maybe even more true to say

true to say, maybe even more true to say that at some level, it's an integration

that at some level, it's an integration of a higher self. It's a merging of

of a higher self. It's a merging of realities that are coming back together

realities that are coming back together as they do away with the illusion of

as they do away with the illusion of separation. There's something really

separation. There's something really profound here because when you listen to

profound here because when you listen to Whitley Struber speak about these

Whitley Struber speak about these experiences have been incredibly

experiences have been incredibly traumatic for him and on the one hand

traumatic for him and on the one hand you wouldn't wish it on your worst enemy

you wouldn't wish it on your worst enemy when it first happens viscerally and yet

when it first happens viscerally and yet he recognizes that what it produces in

he recognizes that what it produces in the person presents the greatest

the person presents the greatest opportunity for spiritual transformation

opportunity for spiritual transformation in the history of our species. The

in the history of our species. The question is how are both of those things

question is how are both of those things true? Can we open into that true

true? Can we open into that true unknown? the fear that inevitably arises

unknown? the fear that inevitably arises from the bodily self when we think about

from the bodily self when we think about that degree of the unknown. But what

that degree of the unknown. But what we're really doing, just like these

we're really doing, just like these therapists are working with people with

therapists are working with people with different aspects of the persona, is

different aspects of the persona, is reintegrating with some larger aspect of

reintegrating with some larger aspect of the collective. That may be the way out

the collective. That may be the way out for our species. It's not about us just

for our species. It's not about us just shifting our perspective on what we do

shifting our perspective on what we do to the planet, but it's understanding

to the planet, but it's understanding who we are in relationship to the

who we are in relationship to the planet. And that might come about in a

planet. And that might come about in a roundabout way by understanding how

roundabout way by understanding how we're related to these beings as well.

we're related to these beings as well. >> I really appreciate that response. It's

>> I really appreciate that response. It's uh it's a challenge. I mean, I think

uh it's a challenge. I mean, I think that um

that um you know, we're faced with a lot of of

you know, we're faced with a lot of of challenges in the world and this just

challenges in the world and this just being one of them, although we might,

being one of them, although we might, you know, categorize it as being the

you know, categorize it as being the ultimate challenge is that this true

ultimate challenge is that this true integration. Um it's a kind of uh

integration. Um it's a kind of uh metabolism in a way, right? We have

metabolism in a way, right? We have these systems that are uh metabolizing

these systems that are uh metabolizing reality as it as it arises. And it's

reality as it as it arises. And it's sort of that conundrum in a way like

sort of that conundrum in a way like what

what where's the line between your cells that

where's the line between your cells that constitute you and food that you ingest,

constitute you and food that you ingest, right? When does that food transmute to

right? When does that food transmute to becoming part of you and as and it's no

becoming part of you and as and it's no longer food, right? And so you you kind

longer food, right? And so you you kind of take that concept and it's you know

of take that concept and it's you know we're doing the same thing with the

we're doing the same thing with the experience. We're ingesting these

experience. We're ingesting these experiences and we're we're sort of uh

experiences and we're we're sort of uh metabolizing them, integrating them into

metabolizing them, integrating them into ourselves, but really that there's no tr

ourselves, but really that there's no tr there's no true separation ultimately.

there's no true separation ultimately. If you get down to the the smallest

If you get down to the the smallest bits, there's no true separation at all.

bits, there's no true separation at all. It's just it appears as if there is. And

It's just it appears as if there is. And and this is happening uh all the way up

and this is happening uh all the way up and all the way down, right? And that's

and all the way down, right? And that's what's so fascinating, you know, when we

what's so fascinating, you know, when we discover these microorganisms, these

discover these microorganisms, these incredible things taking place at the

incredible things taking place at the small level and now we're discovering

small level and now we're discovering these macro objects that taking place at

these macro objects that taking place at the largest levels. I mean, it's all the

the largest levels. I mean, it's all the way up and it's all the way down. And

way up and it's all the way down. And it's it's it it's where is where does

it's it's it it's where is where does you end and where does it begin? It's

you end and where does it begin? It's all integrated. It literally is all the

all integrated. It literally is all the same. It's all a part of one thing. And

same. It's all a part of one thing. And so I think that uh you know as you say

so I think that uh you know as you say finding a new map,

finding a new map, acquiring a new map is going to help us

acquiring a new map is going to help us navigate this territory. And you know

navigate this territory. And you know perhaps we will find that perhaps in the

perhaps we will find that perhaps in the day that we find ourselves with the

day that we find ourselves with the conflicts that we're experiencing with

conflicts that we're experiencing with the fatigue that we have in the left

the fatigue that we have in the left brain kind of thinking that we will uh

brain kind of thinking that we will uh come to produce maps that have new value

come to produce maps that have new value and and integrate the these kinds of

and and integrate the these kinds of things in ways that we have not ever

things in ways that we have not ever conceived. And and I'm hopeful I'm

conceived. And and I'm hopeful I'm hopeful that that will happen. It's um

hopeful that that will happen. It's um it's incredibly challenging. This has

it's incredibly challenging. This has been a really rewarding conversation for

been a really rewarding conversation for me u because it is you know it has been

me u because it is you know it has been super complicated but I want you to have

super complicated but I want you to have one more thought on this before we close

one more thought on this before we close it out.

it out. >> You are thinking about what you were

>> You are thinking about what you were saying there about you know the very

saying there about you know the very micro level up to the very macro level.

micro level up to the very macro level. What's fascinating is that when they

What's fascinating is that when they mapped the cosmos at the most gigantic

mapped the cosmos at the most gigantic scale yet, they found an uncanny

scale yet, they found an uncanny similarity to the appearance of a neural

similarity to the appearance of a neural network. That all of these galactic

network. That all of these galactic clusters and these star systems and

clusters and these star systems and these planets within that looked a lot

these planets within that looked a lot like different components of what we

like different components of what we would consider a brain, a neural

would consider a brain, a neural network. And that is a hint perhaps on a

network. And that is a hint perhaps on a fractal kind of imaging kind of

fractal kind of imaging kind of understanding again that this is just

understanding again that this is just the same oneness refracted on all these

the same oneness refracted on all these different levels. And I think too the

different levels. And I think too the encouragement here that I would want to

encouragement here that I would want to end with arises out of spiral dynamics

end with arises out of spiral dynamics because while I understand that right

because while I understand that right now people might be discouraged with the

now people might be discouraged with the nature of the world and the way things

nature of the world and the way things are going and it does look like we're

are going and it does look like we're going through a regressive stage which

going through a regressive stage which by the way is always part of growth.

by the way is always part of growth. It's never always going up up up.

It's never always going up up up. Sometimes you have to have those peaks

Sometimes you have to have those peaks and valleys as well. But within spiral

and valleys as well. But within spiral dynamics, there's this understanding

dynamics, there's this understanding that you can empirically show both in a

that you can empirically show both in a human being and across cultures that our

human being and across cultures that our understanding of what we should be

understanding of what we should be concerned about does expand over time.

concerned about does expand over time. That it begins with an individual

That it begins with an individual fighting against another individual.

fighting against another individual. Then we have family units which of

Then we have family units which of course is an extension of the self

course is an extension of the self because of DNA. But then family groups

because of DNA. But then family groups come together and form tribes and then

come together and form tribes and then we have villages. Then we have nation

we have villages. Then we have nation states and on it goes. And what you find

states and on it goes. And what you find is that over time we have come into

is that over time we have come into existence notions like human rights

existence notions like human rights across the board. Animal rights. This

across the board. Animal rights. This didn't exist a few centuries ago. Even

didn't exist a few centuries ago. Even the notion now that plants have some

the notion now that plants have some modicum of consciousness and we should

modicum of consciousness and we should recognize that and act accordingly too.

recognize that and act accordingly too. Might this also lead to understanding

Might this also lead to understanding the Gaia spirit that the planet has a

the Gaia spirit that the planet has a consciousness and if we understand it

consciousness and if we understand it differently like I was saying a few

differently like I was saying a few minutes ago that might lead to different

minutes ago that might lead to different policies ultimately.

policies ultimately. So the good news is that evolution

So the good news is that evolution involves the oneness spilling out into

involves the oneness spilling out into the myriad forms. Evolution seen from

the myriad forms. Evolution seen from this more energetic perspective is not

this more energetic perspective is not just about organisms evolving. It's

just about organisms evolving. It's about beings remembering they're part of

about beings remembering they're part of something larger than themselves. And so

something larger than themselves. And so what we see is that over time

what we see is that over time empirically proven time and time again

empirically proven time and time again across cultures is that the sphere of

across cultures is that the sphere of care and concern gets larger and larger

care and concern gets larger and larger and larger. You go from tribentric to

and larger. You go from tribentric to nation centric to human centric to

nation centric to human centric to planet ccentric and eventually

planet ccentric and eventually cosmosentric.

cosmosentric. So that's the good news and I think

So that's the good news and I think somehow the UFO phenomenon as we

somehow the UFO phenomenon as we colloially call it is somehow wrapped up

colloially call it is somehow wrapped up in that entire return to the ultimate

in that entire return to the ultimate oneness that we ultimately all are a

oneness that we ultimately all are a part of.

part of. Well said. Well said. Uh let's end on

Well said. Well said. Uh let's end on that. It's been great. Great

that. It's been great. Great conversation. Look forward to hearing

conversation. Look forward to hearing what listeners uh have to say. Always

what listeners uh have to say. Always appreciate your feedback. And we hope

appreciate your feedback. And we hope that you're having a wonderful time of

that you're having a wonderful time of year, whichever time of year you might

year, whichever time of year you might be listening. Thank you for joining us.

be listening. Thank you for joining us. May the quality of our questions shaped

May the quality of our questions shaped by a desire for understanding enhance

by a desire for understanding enhance our journey of discovery. And may our

our journey of discovery. And may our travels broaden the sphere of our

travels broaden the sphere of our consciousness. reminding us that new

consciousness. reminding us that new discoveries beget new horizons. As

discoveries beget new horizons. As always, adventure awaits. We'll see you

always, adventure awaits. We'll see you next time on Liinal Frames.

next time on Liinal Frames. [Music]

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YouTube Transcript:078 - Bridging Inner and Outer Worlds