The core theme revolves around the intentional effort required to maintain love and connection in relationships, emphasizing that true connection is built through consistent, courageous communication and vulnerability, rather than expecting it to be effortless.
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If you had to give one relationship
ritual to stay in love, what would that
be? Once a week, tell your partner three
things that you love about them and
three things they could have done better.
better.
>> But some people thinking, well, and if I
told Dave that we're going to start
writing these notes to each other, he's
going to cringe and not going to do it.
[ __ ] Honestly, Dave can't name
three things he likes about you. Really,
Dave? Is that a big ask? I absolutely
call bull on that. The bigger question
is what's uncomfortable about that for
you? And look, I'm not a therapist. I'm
a divorce lawyer. I represent some of
the most high achieving minds, athletes,
entrepreneurs, and they're just as bad
at this as anybody because there's a
part of us that's afraid to poke at what
do you love about me? What am I getting
wrong? And it's not just romantic
relationships. Like,
my mom died 10 years ago after a long
battle with cancer.
There was a lot between us that needed
And there's a part of me that wishes she
was here so that I could have apologized
for some things I got wrong. But we
don't do that because people just don't
want temporary discomfort. And so I
think there's something deeply
courageous about love, about commitment,
about saying I'm going to give them the
opportunity to hurt me. Like it's scary,
but I'm brave. You know, your marriage
will end. It ends in death or divorce.
And for two people at the end of their
relationship to say, "This person helped
me become the most authentic version of
myself." That's the greatest gift you
could give to another human being. And
as you can see from this photo, I just
proposed to my fiance. I'd like some
advice on how not to mess this up. Like
if my fiance ends up walking into your
practice, what is the reason she's
likely to end up there? The number one
reason that I'm going to have a woman
sitting across from me, divorcing
someone who's a great provider, great
protector is
>> that is not obvious to everybody
>> and it'll keep me in business for the
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James,
as you can see from this photo, I just
proposed to my fiance and gladly she
said yes. So, I've brought you here in
part because I'd like some advice on how
not to mess this up because I know from
speaking to you previously about 50% of
people that get down on their knee end
up messing it up in some way. Before we
get into this though, and before you
help me figure out how to stay in love
and not mess it up. >> Yeah.
>> Yeah.
>> Where do you find us at as it relates to
love as a society? If you were to zoom
out and diagnose society's relationship
with the subject of love and their um
ability to keep it, find it, and
understand it, where are we?
>> I think we we're in this really
uncomfortable moment as a culture. I
think we we want more than anything to
feel real connection. I think we're sick
of just looking at screens. I think we
came out of the pandemic with a feeling
of, okay, I want to be in the world with
other people and feel the warmth of real people.
people.
And yet, we have an increasingly
lower number of useful tools in finding
connection and staying connected, which
are two totally different skills. And
yet we're yearning for it more than
ever. So we're more hungry than we've
ever been and we have no idea how to cook
cook
>> in your head because you've seen so many
people go through divorce and
relationships fail.
>> There must be a sort of checklist of
things that I'm likely to mess up.
>> Yeah. I mean, well, you know, first of
all, when I when I knew you, you know,
heard you got engaged,
>> I was thrilled because I'm always
cheering for people. I really am. I'm
always cheering for love. And so I think
in our prior conversations, you're
obviously someone who loves very deeply
and and the fact that you found this
person, you know, to me is the most
lovely thing. You know, I I think at its
core, this is your favorite person. I
just can't think of anything more lovely
than that. Like the idea that you would
look at a person and go, "You're my
favorite person." And and that person
would look at you and say, "You're my
favorite person." And that you would
know that it's true. like when they say
it that it's true. Like that that feels
to me like something worth pursuing.
That feels like something that if I
tried to get it and I failed, I'd try
again because if you could find it, it's
just about the greatest thing in the
world. Like the the thought to me that,
you know, I I I won't get to give a
toast at your wedding, but I will say
that if I was going to give the toast,
it would be that there are two wishes I
have for you. You know, your marriage
will end. I mean, I've said it to you
before in one of our first
conversations. Every marriage ends. It
ends in death or divorce. I hope yours
ends in death. And I hope when it ends
in death that let's send you off first
that when you're dying that she will say
hopefully to you or to those around,
you helped me become the most authentic
version of myself and you're still my
favorite person.
Because I can't think of a greater
blessing than that. like for two people
at the end of their life, at the end of
their relationship to say, "This person
helped me become the most authentic
version of myself and they're still my
favorite person." That's the greatest
gift you could give to another human
being, I think. And I like the idea that
even in the face of knowing that this is
risky, this is something that may not
work, this is something that
statistically the odds are against, but
I'm going to give it a shot because, you
know, there's something it adds to my
life and there's something I add to her
life and, you know, we're going to we're
going to give it a shot. I don't know. I
found that very beautiful. As a divorce
lawyer who is also a very big fan of
love, do you ever find yourself trying
to get someone not to get a divorce, has
there ever been an instance where you
you looked at the situation and thought,
you know what, they should just get back
together? Yeah. I what I'll say is my
first thought is often,
is this person accurately perceiving the
situation that they're in? So people
will come in and they'll say, you know,
it really people come to me in very
different situations. So sometimes
people will come to me and they're
they're they've been served with divorce
papers like the marriage is over and now
it's about okay we have to react
defensively. So you know when people
come to my office the situation is often
so dire and so broken that they're
coming in to hire me for that specific
purpose. But I will say without question
that if I get any sense that this person
would either a benefit from individual
therapy that might help them view the
relationship differently and come to the
relationship differently. I will not
hesitate to refer them. And then there
are people that and it's more common
than you'd think that something awful
has happened in the relationship. They
had an affair and got caught. they
caught their spouse having an affair. Uh
they've lost their job and it created
tremendous discord in their
relationship. And that often will feel
to me like something that perhaps would
benefit from the intervention of mental
health professionals or everyone just
taking a breath and taking a minute,
especially when there's kids involved,
but even when there aren't.
>> Are your clients predominantly men or women?
women?
>> It's pretty much an even split really.
>> Yeah. I represent a lot of either very
high achieving high- netw worth
individuals or people married to them.
>> And are the reasons that they come to
you, those two different groups, >> different?
>> different?
>> Like the reason why they want a
separation, is it fundamentally different?
different?
>> So the specific example of cheating, I
would say men get caught cheating more
often than women.
>> Does that mean they cheat more?
>> No, it means they get caught cheating
more. I I don't think that anyone could
really truly accurately say, you know, I
know people love statistics and I know
that that, you know, guests have a
tendency to come out and say, well, 72%
of people who are everything I'm saying
is based on what I've observed in 25
years of facilitating the demise of
marriages. Men and women both cheat. Men
cheat in just more scattershot stupid
ways than women do. When women cheat, in
my experience professionally, it's
usually an indication of like the it's
the absolute end of this relationship.
The relationship is over and this is
either a soft place to land or it's sort
of a final opportunity for this person
to solidify, this woman to solidify in
her head that yeah, this thing is over.
Whereas men, I I've really had hundreds
at this point of men sit across from me
who've been caught in an affair or sense
that they're about to get caught in an
affair and they say to me like, "Yeah,
this had nothing to do with my wife.
Like, I love my wife. It had nothing to
do with that. It just I don't know. I
just I don't know why I did what I did.
I just did it." And I I know everyone
kind of wants to because in civilized
society it feels good to kind of go like
I can't believe that. That's how could
someone say that? But shut up. Like if
you have you have potato chips in your
cabinet, you know, you you you know that
you're not supposed to eat them. You
don't want to eat them. You want vibrant
good health. You want to take care of
your but they're there. They're there.
And you're human. And like I can control
my food environment better than my
brain. Like I have a lot of resolve when
I wake up in the morning. But at about 7
8:00 at night when I'm a little bit
tired and it's been a long day and I
deserve something nice, if the potato
chips are there, I'm eating the potato
chips. Like, we're human. We're human.
There are times where we're just feeling
lonely or hungry or angry or tired or
some combination of those factors. and
this warm thing like the connection to
another person, the the joy of
flirtation, the excitement of of feeling
the energy between yourself and whatever
it is type of person that you're
attracted to. I think it's very normal.
And then the problem becomes that you're
not thinking about the consequences of
those things. If you were thinking about
the consequences of those things, you'd
make better choices. But we all know
that discipline is trading what you want
now for what you want most. And
sometimes it's hard to remember what you
want most and to keep it in your line of sight.
sight.
>> So from your experience, you know, if my
fiance someday ends up walking into your
practice, what is the
reason she's likely to end up there from
her perspective asking you to help her
get out of the relationship with me?
the most obvious, if you're going to be
like the most the average, the
statistical average, it would be that
you've stopped seeing her and stopped
noticing her in in the list of things
that are important to Steven, that she's
somewhere in the middle to bottom of
that list. Like for for a high achiever
like you, for someone who's
entrepreneurial in the manner that you
are, for someone who, you know, lives
the kind of lifestyle that you do where
you're on this coast one day and this
country another day and flying here on a
moment's notice and getting invitations
to interesting things and you have to
triage because you couldn't possibly do
all the things that you'd like to do. It
usually would be that she just feels
herself slipping in the rankings. And I
think that that is often not a function
of what you're like that lifestyle I
just described. It's a function of where
you take time to fit her into that.
Because I genuinely have found
tremendous number of examples of people
who and this is in the relationship work
who have that level of intensity in
their life and that level of chaos in
their schedule and it's unpredictable
but they have that ability every morning
or every afternoon or every once in a
while but consistently to say hey I have
a minute between recordings. I just
wanted you to know I was thinking of
you. Or hey, you know, I heard that song
when I was in the car from here to here
and it makes me think of you and I can't
wait to see you next week. You know,
something like that to me, like how hard
is that? By the way, doesn't have to be
like a global lifestyle. It could even
be, hey, we got a couple of kids and two
dogs and you know, my my mom is sick and
I got to tend to her so I'm super busy.
But how do you let your partner know,
hey, you're still really important.
we're still really connected to each
other because that's the number one
complaint. That's the number one reason,
particularly with women, that I'm going
to have a woman sitting across from me
divorcing someone who's a great
provider, great protector, great all of
those things.
>> That is not obvious to everybody. And
I'll be honest, it's not it wasn't
necessarily obvious to me. The way that
I operate naturally, and this is just
the way that I am. I've spoken to so
many of my friends to understand how
they operate and the way that their
brain works is when I'm here.
>> The only thing I'm thinking about is this
this
>> and I almost I'm remarkable at
forgetting everything else
>> and and being completely here.
>> Now that sounds like a good thing,
>> but it also means that I can lose 14
hours and forget to to check in. I can
forget, you know.
>> Is it is it also true when you're with
her? Yes. When we have scheduled the time.
time. >> Good.
>> Good.
>> So, you know, when we schedule the time
to go and do something together, I'm I'm
there. I'm not on my phone. I'm not
doing anything else.
>> Good. I think that's a tremendous
priority. I'm hearing more and more from
people the feeling of, yeah, we're
together, but we're not together. We're
sitting there and they're on their phone
or they're doing other things. And I
think that it's really really important
that one of the really important aspects
of relationship be that there is time
where you give each other that level of
focus. But again, you know, like it's
just not something we are necessarily
taught. We have maybe we have our
parents as models, but very often
they're they're not good models.
>> What's interesting here as well is for
some reason I've chosen someone who's
like the opposite of me in terms of the
way that I
>> partly because she Yeah, probably. And
when I've spoken to some of my friends
who are quite like me, they've also
chosen partners who are the opposite of them.
them.
>> Could you imagine? I know.
>> Could you imagine two of you? Like
imagine me with me, you know, you with
you. That would like it would be so
intense. But
>> this is why it becomes so easy to
misunderstand because we go through life
assuming the other person has the same
perspective as we do
>> and they feel the same way that we do
about things. And
>> but what's the solution to that? I've
had to learn to
to
check in.
>> Yeah. But don't you think she loves that
about you?
>> She does. She actually just sent me a
message this morning saying, "Thank you
so much." Because I said when I left
this time, I said, "Listen, I'm going to
FaceTime you every day,
>> even if it's for just one minute." >> Yeah.
>> Yeah. >> So,
>> So,
>> isn't that lovely, though? You're still
trying to figure out how can I be better
at this thing? And that's amazing.
That's a beautiful thing. You know
what's so funny is if I walked into your
home and on the table there was, you
know, the power of habit by during or
the seven habits of highly effective
people, I would go, "Oh, look at look at
Stephen. He's still so successful. He's
still trying to sharpen the point of the
spear. Amazing." You know, but if you
walk in and you see a book, you know,
how to stay in love, you go, "Things all
right with Stephen? Like things going
okay? What's going on with the
relationship?" Why? Why don't we as a
society just acknowledge we're we're
kind of bad at this? We're kind of bad
at maintaining connection. We're kind of
bad at helping like feeling loved and
feeling worthy of love and helping our
partner feel loved and figuring out how
to maintain connection. And maybe the
key is that little thing, that one
minute facetime, that one minute of
saying, "Hey, maybe we should try this
other thing." What are you actually
saying? What you're actually saying is,
"I want to be good at this job. How can
I be good at this job? How can I stay
good at it? How can I get even better at
it?" Like, we go for the job interview
and we want this job so bad. Like,
that's what dating is. Dating is I'm
sending my resume all over the place.
I'm sending it all over the place. I
hope I can find something, something
that suits my skills and my needs and
where they want me and I'll be well
compensated and I'll get something from
it and I'll give something to it because
I have all this talent and I have all
this stuff and I want to give it to a
worthy cause and I want to be
compensated for that and I want to feel
part of something. That's all dating is
is it's a job interview and then you get
the job and for a little while you're
like I got the job. It's the oh my god
you should see the office is amazing and
you should and I could I knew exactly
what's going you know there's room for
growth. There's room for growth in this
job. It's going to be great, you know,
and I I really feel like there's room
for advancement. Like, this could be the
job. This could be my career. This could
be my vocation. It could be meaningful
and wonderful. I think I have something
I could contribute to. And we're so
excited. And you jump ahead 3 years
later and we're like, that [ __ ] job.
That job. Yeah. No, I got to go to work
again. Like, yep. All right. Here we go.
That's it. You know, I got a friend who
just got the best job. Oh my god. They
had their they got the great and that's
all we instead of trying to remember
that at some point the relationship that
you're in was something you aspired to
like the idea that you were someday
going to find a person who just was your
favorite person and you were their
favorite person and you were going to be
there for each other and see each
other's blind spots and help each other
like figure out who you are and be it
and that you were going to grow together
and change together. And some core
things would stay exactly the same. And
some things would change in beautiful,
meaningful ways. And you'd see each
other through amazing things and
terrible things and all the things that
the world throws at you. You'd never be
alone again because you'd have this
person like, and somehow
it's considered sort of odd to check in
and want to be good at that job and have
performance reviews. Like, you run
teams. you run so many teams. How how
often do you go, we don't need to have
performance reviews?
>> I think at the heart of this is we
assume probably through media and social
media that relationships are supposed to
be effortless. >> Why?
>> Why?
>> I don't just kind of what you see,
right? Like I remember I remember um my
girlfriend telling me the other day, she
was like, "Oh, there's this couple I
follow on Instagram and they're like
amazing. um they're like the perfect
couple and it's just just turned out
that the guy is sleeping with someone else.
else.
>> Yeah. And I thought and again I thought
well that watch my girlfriend
vicariously watching that couple for the
last 5 years has probably increased her
expectations on what a relationship
should be cuz she's just had this sort
of two dimensional window but there was some
some
the natural mess of relationship was
taking place outside of you and we all
just have the 2D window like
relationship problems on Instagram
broadcasting that doesn't doesn't drive
followership. No. And what what what
I'll also say is look, we formulate a
lot of our conception of what a
relationship should look like by
portrayals of relationships in film and
television, right? Yeah. Okay. So,
>> can we agree that the romcom or the
romantic film
is basically just an emotional version
of pornography? like it's a stylized
excerted falsehood that's designed to
amplify the the most visually and
emotionally compelling or stimulating
aspects of things like yes there's
conflict but it gets cleaned up very
neatly and very nicely like there's it's
so this perception that that
relationships should be effortless
is based I think on largely that which
is this feeling that and again whether a
story is a comedy or a tragedy depends
and where you end the story, right? So,
we always end the story in a spot where
it's like, "Tada, they're in love and
they walk off hand in hand." But, right,
they walk off into life. They walk off
into this ecosystem of life that's
filled with complexity and there's
factors beyond our control that are
impacting our emotional state, the
emotional state of our partner, the you,
the me, and the Wii. So, there's a lot
going on and and the thought that, well,
this should be effortless. everything
else is a lot of work and potentially
and by the way the opposite
like this is effortless and this is a
drudgery and we tend to just see things
in that binary way unnecessarily like
we've made so much progress as a society
when it comes to not viewing everything
in a binary like there's there's not as
much rigidity about gender roles anymore
there's not as rigidity about you know
are you a worker are you like a career
person or a family person like there's a
sense of weight. You can kind of be a
little bit of both. Like look at these
things as a spectrum a little bit. So,
but this we're still pretty glued into
this idea that like relationships are
supposed to be the smoothest, easiest
thing or relationships are hard work.
You're not supposed to be happy all the
time. And shut up if you think that
that's what you oh you're not happy.
Nobody's happy or you're not supposed to
be happy. That's not the point of
marriage. The point of marriage is a commitment.
commitment.
>> Are relationships supposed to be simple?
>> I don't know what you mean by simple.
Simple to navigate? No, they're
obviously not simple to navigate because
56% of them end in divorce.
>> Is it going to be hard?
>> If your definition of hard is I have to
pay some level of attention to it, then
yes, it's going to be hard. Is that
hard? Like, is that hard? Really? Is
that hard? Like, I don't think it's that
hard. Paying attention isn't that hard.
Remembering to pay attention might be
hard, but don't you create reminders for
yourself? You've got so many gadgets and
you can't have some reminder in the day
of like, oh
her, keep her in my line of sight.
Again, it doesn't mean you don't love
her, that she's not front of mind. It
means you're a driven, hardworking
person. I'm a driven, hardworking
person. There's tons of times where very
important things in my life aren't front
of mind. But that's why I use reminders.
>> So to invert that question that I asked
at the top of this, if I am to come to
you at some point in the future, James,
and I say, "Listen, I need a divorce."
>> What am I likely to give as the reason
for that based on, you know, who I am
and how that correlates to the clients
like me that you deal with?
>> Yeah. So the reason you're going to give
and the underlying reason is different.
So, the the reason you're going to give
is going to be a practical reason, which
is either I've met someone else, she's
met someone else, um we've had a
terrible fight and uh I've said things
that we can't take back. I had a
spectacular failure financially and
she's just bailing on me because she
sees that the future's really rocky or
she made some terrible decision and did
something awful that's a betrayal that I
can't abide by. But again, that's the
presenting reason.
Underneath that is the bigger reason,
which is we lost the plot.
We lost the plot. Like that that's a
that's the start of a chapter in a
story. It's the end of a chapter and the
start of a chapter. That photo like the
first chapter in that story was was was
this person and this person wandering
around on the same planet trying to
figure it out, trying to figure out what
they're doing. And they have their
origin story and they have their you
know their complimentary pathologies
that developed over time and then you
know they found each other. 8 billion
people in the world and somehow their
paths intersected you know and they
started to have this connection and so
there was the you and there was the me
and then there was the Wii and that ven
diagram started right and then you start
to fill it with things you fill it with
people. You fill it with experiences.
And this is just a stop along the way
like this. These two people, this is
just a moment. It's an incredible
moment. It can be like kuman. It can be
like a moment that there was this and
then everything after this. It's a
punctuation mark. Like I like to say
that life has punctuation marks. Like
you had a kid, you lost your job, you
got a job, whatever. Those are
punctuation marks. This is a big
punctuation mark. And it will either be
you know the beginning of the end or the
end of the beginning. You get to write
that. You get to write that chapter. But
this is a moment for me. The reason why
this is a beautiful moment is this is a
moment of tremendous optimism. This is a
moment where the two of you said you're
my favorite person and and I I want to
write this next chapter with you as as
having a different title in it. But
really, like the title's just a symbol.
The the ring is just a symbol. It's just
a symbol of a commitment. It's a symbol
of of a promise. And all a promises is a
symbol of intention. That's all. It's
just an intention. Our intention is
we're not going to be alone anymore.
We're going to do this together. And by
the way, you're already not alone. The
fact that you got to this place that you
would ask this question, that that's a
beautiful confirmation of the fact that
you don't feel alone.
>> We would have lost the plot.
Yeah. Yeah. You would have lost the plot
of the story. I So, this is a story.
Where does this story go? Where do you
want it to go? You want it to go to a
future that features the two of you old
together someday. Maybe it features
children. Maybe it features companion animals.
animals.
>> And what what is the most likely reason
that we would lose the plot?
>> You stop paying attention.
>> You stop you stop doing what you're
currently do. How did you get to this
beautiful moment? You start doing the
opposite. You got to this moment by
paying attention. You got to this moment
by making this a priority. You got to
this moment by by keeping this front of
mind. By valuing what is this but a
symbol of you are valuable to me. Why
did you get on one knee? Why do you get
on one knee? I mean, think about the
symbols of all of this. We live in a
world of symbols. Like the outfit I'm
wearing, I'm saying something to you. I
take this seriously. That's why you wear
a suit. is you wear a suit to say I take
this seriously. So what why did you do
this? What is this as simple? I'm down
on one knee. Why? I'm humbling myself in
front of you. I'm offering something to
you. I'm hoping you will accept the gift
I am giving to you. Like there's
something very lovely about that symbol.
>> Is this is this what you call slippage?
>> Slippage is exactly when you start to
unintentionally again people rarely have
slippage intentionally. It's usually
that, okay, we got that knocked out. Now
we can focus on the other stuff. And
that's slippage. Slippage is these small
disconnections. Small disconnections
that in of themselves mean nothing. Like
no single raindrops responsible for the
flood. That little raindrop, it's just a
little raindrop. That's all it really
is. But slippage is this gradually
increasing number of small
disconnections that eventually leads to
the giant marriage killer that you come
in and say, "Here's why we're getting
divorced." But it wasn't that. It it was
all these little pieces, but at some
point you were there.
>> Do you think people
spot the slippage in the moment, but
they don't think it's big enough to
fight about or do something about?
>> 100%. And that's that's the cognitive
bias. That's the fallacy that will keep
me in business for the rest of my life
because people just don't want temporary
discomfort. Like our desire for joy
versus our aversion to pain, our
aversion to pain will win every single
time. We know this. That's why there was
an opiate crisis more so than a cocaine
crisis. Because one of those things is
about making you feel really good and
the other is about getting rid of pain.
Like the the human desire any scientist
will tell you this ask our friend Andrew
Huberman ask anybody they will tell you
the human desire to escape pain is the
controlling aspect of self. So escaping
pain even discomfort even dis and again
this is this is pushed by the narrative
that love should be easy. If you're
going to make if anything's
uncomfortable about it, you must be
doing it wrong. Maybe you're not with
your soulmate. You know, it would be so
easy and effortless. You'd always know
what the other person wanted. You'd
never have to tell them. They would
know. They would know you well enough to
know what it is that you need. And they
would get you. Even though, by the way,
really, really like I'm 53 years old.
I've been in therapy for 20 years.
I get like 70% of this guy, I think,
like at best. Like, and I'm in here. I'm
in here and I get about 70% of this guy.
Like, and I'm supposed to get you a 100%.
100%.
Because we're exchanging bodily fluids.
Like, we're I'm supposed to just cuz
we've slept in the same bed, I'm
supposed to get you 100% and get ahead
of stuff. Like, I get me 70%. And that's
with a lot of reflection. So, I I really
think that it's wildly unfair for us to
to to think that, you know, this should
be effortless, this should be easy, and
that it should never be uncomfortable.
It's okay to be like I I think because
of what I do for a living, I have to
tell people things they don't want to
hear all day because it's true. And I
tell them what they need to hear and not
what they want to hear. And you know,
when clients say to me at the end of a
consultation or conversation like, "Oh
my god, I feel so much better." better.
I always go, "That's great. That wasn't
my intention." Because I don't want
anyone I talk to professionally to think
I am telling you something to make you
feel better. I'm not here to make you
feel better. I'm not a therapist. I'm
here to tell you the truth. And if the
truth makes you feel better, great. If
the truth makes you uncomfortable, at
least you know the truth now. So, I feel
like in relationship again, if what you
want most is lasting lifelong connection
where we get each other as best we can,
we can help each other navigate self and
each other as best we can and we cannot
lose the plot of a story that is really
beautiful right now. So, everybody
listening can probably think about
something in their relationship which
has gotten a little bit worse
>> since they first got into that
relationship. And it could be the way
that they argue is getting a little bit
worse. They're not listening as much.
>> Maybe the voice the the tone has gone up
or it's getting a little bit more angry.
>> Um, whatever it is in their
relationship, what do they need to do
now? It's like it's not flooded yet. >> Yeah.
>> Yeah.
>> But there's
>> best time to look at it, best time to
talk about it. There's a puddle.
>> So, what I do for a living in court
is I try to manipulate people's
emotional state. That's my job. Like, my
job is to go and make the judge like my
client, dislike the other side. I want
the other side to feel scared. I want my
client to feel safe. I want the court
reporter who's taking things down and
the court officer to like me and to like
my client so that when we take a break
in testimony and they go in the back
with the judge, they go, "I like Jim.
He's a really good lawyer." Or, "Oh, his
client seems so nice." Or, "Boy, the
other guy seems like a jerk." Or, "Boy,
that other lawyer is a jerk." Like so
I'm here manipulating people's emotional
state. That's my job. Like that's what a
trial lawyer does. We manipulate
people's emotional state. We play with
the levers, right? So I say this as to say
say
we should be doing this in our
relationships. There's nothing nefarious
about that. These are tools and how you
use them will will give you a sense of
whether it's good or bad or what. Look,
if what you are doing is to maintain
connection, how you parse it is going to
be everything. So, even the way you just
said that, like, well, something's kind
of going wrong in the relationship.
Okay, we're already off to the wrong
narrative because when someone tells you
something's been done wrong, there's
this automatic defensive response of,
well, I didn't mean to do it wrong and
well, you know, it's not my fault that I
did it wrong. It brings out something
defensive in us rather than saying
something's changed. Have you noticed
that something changed? Have you noticed
that remember when we used to talk to
each other about you know sometimes like
and I don't know if it's something that
I've done and if it is you know I I I
really would appreciate you telling me
but like when we have been fighting
lately like that the tone seems to have
changed. Have you noticed that? Is it
just me? I now it's a non-defensive
dialogue. I'm not accusing you of
something. I'm noting that something has
changed. And by the way, good. We love
each look at how much we love each other
in that picture. Like look at put the
wedding photos up somewhere. Look at
that moment. We were nuts about each
other in that moment. We were everything
the other person ever wanted and more.
So anytime something has changed from
that, don't you want to know? Don't you
want to know? And by the way, not in an
accusatory fashion. The most common one
is we're not having sex as much as we
used to. We're not having sex. We're not
having much sex. I'm not getting as much
oral sex as I used to get. We're not
getting Okay, there's a way to say that
the way I just said it. That's just
going to blow up in your face. It's not
going to work because it's, well, well,
YOU HAVEN'T BEEN AROUND AS MUCH. WELL, I
HAVEN'T BEEN AROUND AS much cuz I'm
working so much and I don't see you
spending less. Well, you know, honestly,
if it comes down to that, I'd spend a
lot to not have you treat me this way.
Now, we're just having a fight. Whereas,
if we say like, oh, remember how clo
remember when we went away? I was just
thinking yesterday about when we went
away that weekend. Remember we ended up
not even leaving the room? It was so
fun. I love when we're like feeling that
connected and close, you know? I feel
like I feel like lately sometimes like
we're maybe not as connected and close
like and if there's something I'm I'm
doing that's making that like I I really
want to get it right. Like I really want
to get it right. You know, there's
something about
apologizing first, like having some
humility in relationship that has
tremendous value. Like when a lawyer
like I'll I'll tell you one of my trade
secrets. You know, I my job is a very
combative job sometimes. So, there's
times where being very aggressive is the
right move. But there's times where
being aggressive just doesn't accomplish
anything. And if I'm interacting with a
lawyer for the first time, this is
someone I haven't had cases with. So, we
don't know each other except by
reputation and they come at me really
hard, the first thing I'll do is
apologize. I'll say, "You know, I I I'm
sorry. I just have to say like your tone
like you're coming at me like it if I
said something in our initial
interaction that made you feel like that
I didn't have respect for you or that
you know I didn't value your perspective
or like it I have a tendency to
interrupt people sometimes I have a
tendency to so if I offended you I
apologize because the way that you're
kind of talking to me like I feel like I
must have said something wrong or I must
have so I apologize absolutely if I did
what is the per what choice do they have
but to then
Oh, no, no, that's that's just my tone.
That's just how I Oh, yeah, of course.
Look, hey, we all have a game face or I
just felt like, oh my god, like this
guy's coming at me so hard. Like I I
felt like I must have said something
inadvertently or, you know, and and then
everyone's kind of calmer now, you know?
So I think that this is a very easy way
to invite discussion about these small
preventative maintenance things without
turning it into a whole like because we
again we just think that oh if I bring
that up it's going to turn into a whole
thing. It doesn't have to turn into a
whole thing period.
>> Yeah. Yeah, I think I asked that in part
because I it's something that I I've
like subtly noticed that when we were
when we first met 7 years ago, we were
much more patient.
>> And I'm like, I probably need to have a
conversation about returning to being
more patient when we're trying to solve
problems. We kind of like rush through
them now. And I just I'm like, oh, you
play this forward.
>> You play this forward a decade or two
decades. I'm like, damn, we're really
not going to be great at solving
problems if we don't just like slow down
with them. Yeah. And
>> a lot of that just means like listening
to the other person's point of view a
bit bit more intently.
>> Yeah. And that's hard. That's hard
because you know your your brain moves
quickly. Like it's something I struggle
with in relationship for sure. Like any
kind of relationship is I'm very like
all right, come on. We got to land this
plane. Like let's go. Like skip to the
end. Time is money. Like what are we
what are we doing? Where are we going
with this? Like and I I'm terrible at
it. I interrupt people constantly. Like
I'm I'm not good at that. And it's
something I'm working on because I I I
think I know what they have to say next.
And I'm wrong a lot of the time,
especially in relationship, I'm wrong.
Like it's not a popular opinion to say
that men and women are different, but
men and women are different. And and and
I don't say that to say one is superior
and one is inferior. I say that to say
that we're different. We we navigate
things differently. We experience life
differently. We're treated differently
from a societal standpoint. We've had
different life experiences and I
genuinely believe that it would be very
valuable for us in relationship to to
sort of think, hey, I don't really know
everything about how this person is
wired. It took me fully
40 some odd years, if not 50, to figure
out that if I'm in a romantic
relationship with a woman and she comes
home and starts telling me about
something that's upsetting to her, that
she doesn't want what my male friends
want. Like if I called a buddy of mine,
if I called you, I've called you before.
If I called you and I said, "Stephen,
I'm having this problem, man. I'm
dealing with one of my sons and he's
doing XYZ." I ex if you went, "That must
be very hard, Jim. I'd be like, "Yes, it
is, Stephen. That's why I called you. Do
you have any suggestions? Like, what do
you think I should do here? Like, you're
a smart guy. I called you cuz I wanted
you to help me." Very often, that is the
opposite. Most women want you to hear
them. Give them some support. You guys
can have this conversation. A couple can
have this conversation. You can say,
"Hey, listen. right now in this moment,
we're not you're not coming to me with a
problem. But when you come to me with a
problem, my natural proclivity is to
start throwing solutions. And I've I've
learned or I I heard Stexton say on
Steven's show that, you know, maybe
that's not the best way. Do you find
that's true? Like, do you want me to
maybe like when you say these things,
could I because again, this is a job. I
want to be good at this job. Why Why is
it wrong for me to ask you how to how
can I be better at this job? I found it
really useful to state explicitly to my
fiance what my needs are in those
situations. And again, it didn't come
naturally to her and vice versa. Like it
didn't what she needs from me in those situations
situations
is the opposite of what I need from her
in those situations. I'm thinking
particularly when she's like going
through something and she's struggling
with something. She wants me to
be be present and she
um often wants like some advice on it
and her advice is like the opposite of
mine often and in the inverse when I'm
going through those situations
I actually
don't want to talk about it at all. >> Yeah.
>> Yeah.
>> I just wanted to be there.
>> Yeah. Yeah. But please,
>> she wants to talk about I don't want to
talk about it.
>> But what but what would be wrong with
saying in that moment?
I've got a menu.
I've got a menu for you. Can you tell me
which one you want? Cuz just like just
like you said, you're hungry. And I
said, "What are you hungry for? Do you
want sushi? Do you want me to make you
something? Do you want some cheese
toast? Do you want us to go out
someplace and we can get burgers? What
is it you want?" Right? Couldn't you
just say, "Hey, I've got a menu. I can
just listen and tell you I love you and
just be here. I can give you some
solutions and and how I might handle the
problem. I can try to distract you and
tell you a funny story about something
that happened to me today or I can pick
you up and tickle you. We can go in the
other room and roll around in the sheets
for a little while and take your mind
off it and then we can figure out which
of the other options you might want. We
can go for a walk together and we can
talk about it or not talk about it. What
would you like on the menu? Because
that's I'm serving all of those things
for you. Which one would you like? And
the worst thing she could say is, "I
don't know." And you go, "Okay, then I'm
going to pick one. I'm going to pick
one. And if it feels good, great. And if
it doesn't, you'll tell me, okay? And I
won't be offended." Like again, what'
that take, Stephen? 30 seconds. 30
seconds. Throw that out there. Like
that. That's instead of just blindly
throwing darts at the target, not
knowing where the target is.
>> If you had to give everybody listening
one relationship ritual that you would
think would most increase the
probability that they stay together,
stay in love.
>> What would that relationship ritual be?
>> I think that once a week you should make
a specific task of telling your partner
three things that you really like about them.
them.
And every week it should be something
different. I think you should tell your
partner if you really want to want to
take the advanced edition of this. If
you want to turn it from a 30- secondond
task into like a whole five minutes that
you devote to your relationship, you
know, I feel about relationship
maintenance the way that if you've ever
heard the story, I think the Daly Lama
is the one credited with saying it.
That's that a high high-end executive,
you know, paid a colossal amount of
money to have a private audience with
the Daly Lama. And the Daly Lama said to
him, you know, um, if you're searching
for inner peace, you should meditate for
15 minutes a day. And the executive
said, I don't have 15 minutes a day to
meditate. He said, then you should
meditate for an hour a day. I feel the
same way. If you don't have five minutes
a week to devote to your spouse or
partner, then you're going to need
hours. I think you should actually set
aside hours. Like five minutes a week, I
would suggest the following exact s just
systematic basic thing. This is what my
next book is about. out. It's about a
systematic approach to being good at
love. And the idea is
once a week, I think here's the advanced
version, but minimum just write down,
send an email, send a text, whatever it
is, tell your partner three things that
you love about them.
The advanced version is tell your
partner three things you love about
them. Tell them three times this week
that they made you feel loved. Here's
three things you did this week that made
me feel loved. Like here's three. When
you sent me that message and said that
made me feel so soft, that made me feel
very loved. Like whatever it is, I'm
sure you could find off the top of your
head three things that she did this week
that made you feel loved. And it's only Monday.
Monday.
>> People at home are in relationships
right now. They're hearing you say that
and some of them are still not going to
do it. Why do you think they're not
going to do it? Like what is that mental
conversation they're having where they go?
go?
>> I think we're I Well, I think we're I
think they think it's pointless. I think
they they might be at a point in their
relationship where it feels like what
would be the point we're so far gone it
wouldn't help. I think more than
anything my my real feeling on this the
secret that I don't think people want to
say out loud
I think we're terrified. I think we're
terrified. And I think what we're
terrified of is not
is not the future of our relationship. I
think what we're terrified of is that we
we feel like we're not worthy of love. I
think it's most people's fundamental
terror. I think most people's
fundamental fear is that if you knew me,
you wouldn't love me. If you could see
me, the real me, like the me that's in
here, all the weakness, all the fear,
all the horrible selfish thoughts, all
the perversity, all the all the darkest
things that are inside of me and every
single one of us that if you could if
you saw that, you couldn't possibly love
me. and
the feeling that comes with that which
is so you love the character I'm playing
that's not showing you all those things.
I'm just I'm just showing you the best
parts of myself. If you saw the real me,
you wouldn't really love me. I think our
greatest fear is that we're not worthy
of love. And I think that there's a part
of us that's afraid to like poke at what
do you love about me? What do I love
about you? How how what am I getting
wrong? Like again, like finishing that exercise,
exercise,
you know, here's some things. Here's
three things I love about you. Here's
three things you did this week that made
me feel loved. Here's three things I
could have done better. Or tell me three
things I could have done better. Or tell
your partner three things they could
have done better. And then if you want
to have a fun one thrown in there, cuz I
think you should end on fun stuff,
here's three things you did this week
that made me want to have sex with you.
>> I guess some people would
are listening right now and they're
thinking, well, you know, I'm I'm dating
Barry or they think I'm dating Joanne
and she is she is not verbally intimate
in this way. She would, if I suggested
this to her,
>> write it down. Don't do it. You don't
have to do it verbally. I think verbally
is too much pressure on people. But but
even written down, if I told Dave that
we're going to start writing these notes
to each other about three things I love,
he's going to cringe and he's
>> [ __ ] [ __ ] Honestly, really,
that's that's too hard. It's too much of
an ask. Like Dave, I don't care what
Dave does for a living. Dave could be a
ditch digger for a living who's not
articulate in any way. Dave is moving in
with you. Dave married you. Dave went
out and put his money on the counter and
bought a ring. Dave Dave can't name
three things he likes about you. Really,
Dave? Is that a big ask? Is that hard,
Dave? Like, come on. That I absolutely
call [ __ ] on that. Maybe he doesn't
want to. Okay, that's a different
conversation. Why don't you want to?
Why? What's uncomfortable about that for you?
you?
>> It is uncomfortable for some people,
isn't it?
>> Yeah, it's very uncomfortable for some people.
people.
>> It's quite interesting that you could be
in a loving relationship with someone,
but also be at some deeper level scared
of intimacy. And I'll be honest, because
it's just me and you, nobody's listening.
listening.
>> Sure. Of course.
>> I think at some client privilege.
>> Yeah. I think at some level I've always
been scared of intimacy. It makes it
sound more conscious than it is,
>> but at some deeper level I've always
been, I don't know, a bit disconnected
intimately when it comes to like
uh being able to articulate
>> these things. We keep it simple. That
that's why I want to keep that simple. I
didn't say what is what is your love for
me rooted in and what is the nature of
our connection and how does it fit into
the broader context like I had a very
challenging relationship with my mother
growing up and I feel like you fill some
of the wounds that guys we don't need
like Sigman Freud doesn't have to show
up in the relationship
what are three we could do it right now
in this relationship what are three
things I like about you what are three
experiences you and I have had with each
other that made each other laugh. Like
we have a friendship. Like what a joy
that is by the way. Like what a joy it
is to sit across from someone and say,
"You know what I like about you?" [ __ ]
man. I I want to hear that list. Like
that's lovely.
>> Do you think the whole idea of people
being avoidant and sort of anxious? You
know, this attachment style and stuff.
Do is that does that stuff track to what
you've seen? It does. But you know, I I
also think too like I don't understand
why we treat our connections to other
people differently than things we are
like exercise. Exercise. Okay. Haven't
been to the gym in a while. You go to
the gym, you're going to be sore. You're
not going to be able to lift a lot.
You're going to have to start slow. And
for a couple days, you're going to be
sore. And if you go, oo, I that was I
was very sore after that. I'm not going
back to the gym. Okay. then you're never
going to get fit and you're never going
to get past the sore stage. Cuz if you
go, I'll wait a month and then I'll go
back and do the same thing again. Guess
what? You're just going to You have to
move through the uncomfortable part to
get to the part where it starts to feel
really good and you're not as sore.
Yeah, you'll sometimes still be sore.
You pushed it a little too hard. Maybe
worked out with Huberman that week. But
you know what? Other weeks like you go,
"Hey, I don't feel sore. I just feel
strong and healthy." So, there's going
to be moments where this might feel a
little weird. It might feel a little
awkward. It might feel a little sore.
There might be weeks where that kind of
a simple little practice feels a little
like, oh, it feels a little
uncomfortable. Or, yeah, the list of
things that you did this week that made
me feel loved, I have to reach for it.
Okay, great. Isn't that little
uncomfortable conversation that might
prevent slippage? Isn't that little
conversation better than the long-term
impact of having a distance start
growing between the two of you that
eventually becomes impossible to
navigate because it becomes a chasm
between the two of you?
>> Do you think the attachment style theory
has any truth to it from what you've
seen? Do you tend to find people are,
you know, there's some people that are
avoidant of intimacy, there's some
people that are anxious, there's some
people in the middle.
>> Yeah. I mean, look, I I think that we're
all creatures of our our upbringing, and
I think a lot of our I'm amazed as a
53-year-old man in therapy how often
a lot of my challenges are rooted in
seven-year-old Jim.
>> As a man that talks so much about love,
I'm I'm curious to know what it is that
you still struggle with in terms of, you
know, because I I mean, I know from my
own experience that I can know every I
can know so much. I sit here with
experts all day every day. It's not like
I don't know this stuff. Yeah.
>> But then putting it into practice is a
different task.
>> Yeah. I mean, it's why you'll never hear
me use myself in my relationships as an
example because I think you can be, you
know, an incredibly skilled person at at
the theory of something and then in its
practical application, you have your own
unique challenges. I think that using
yourself as the example and your
relationships as an example is dangerous
because I I learned it in my own
professional life when I had a very
friendly divorce. And so my experience
of divorce is the unique function of the
constitution of my ex-wife and of me and
of our unique circumstances that brought
us where we are. So if I use that as the
basis for my analysis of things, I think
it's a very shallow sample size. I I
know for me
my greatest challenge in every
relationship I've ever had, but even in
my my professional relationships is
acknowledging when I need help. I I
think because I was raised in an
environment where a lot of my needs
weren't met. My father was a very
serious alcoholic. My mother was trying
to tend to a very serious alcoholic.
when I needed something even from a very
young age I I felt a lot of shame
because it wasn't met with you know I'm
hungry for breakfast like of course let
me make you some breakfast it was met
with what you can't make your own
breakfast what's wrong with you and I
it was this guy yeah that was me that
was me Bruce Lee poster and my was Chuck
Norris up there um yeah this is probably like
like
nine nine years old Okinawa and Goju Ryu
karate. This is my room. Yeah, I was
very um very lonely. I was really
lonely. I was really sad. And
um I loved martial arts because there
was this
very clear kind of masculinity on
display, like this protective, strong
superpower that you could build.
>> It wasn't just gifted to you. like you
didn't win the genetic lottery. Like you
could through discipline and practice
you could have this superpower that
would make you feel safe and and that
was what I obsessed about having.
There's still a lot of that that person
that young man still in me that is
afraid to ask for help. I wanted to be
someone who I could do do it all for myself.
myself.
And I I I wish I could say looking back
that it was because that was my natural
proclivity is to want to be very
self-actualized, but it really was that
I was just absolutely sad and terrified
that if I asked I'd be shamed if I said
like could you be nice to me that the
answer would be no.
So I learned how to do everything like I
cook amazingly well. like I'm good at a
lot of things. I'm good at most things.
Almost anything I put my mind to I'm
good at. But it took me a lot of years
to figure out that that although that
has served me really well and it's built
my career and the security and safety
that came with being so successful and
having financial success and you know
now some level of notoriety.
It took me a long time to figure out
that that also has been the greatest
obstacle in my life. And I it it I'm
learning at the age of 53 that this guy
is like he's still there and talking to
me all the time. And I've learned now
again through my own therapy to say to
him like, "Oh, I hear you. Like, I hear
you. I'm glad you're still there. Like,
I'm not
I'm grateful to him.
I think that's the best thing to aspire
to is to make peace with that. Like I'm
sure in you
there is some little boy
like hiding in some part of his room
feeling very lost and very lonely. And I
don't think there's anything wrong or
weak or not masculine or not strong
about acknowledging that that's still a
voice in your head.
And acknowledging that that voice in
your head, like it it brought you where
you are, but it also held you back in
some ways. And you're never going to get
rid of it. But maybe what you'll do is
hear it for what it is, which is is it's
a voice that was once there really
important to save you. and it did a
really good job of that. But that it's
okay. Like it's okay. You don't have to
beat that out of you, but you don't have
to listen to it either. You don't have
to let it drive the car.
>> I was thinking as you were speaking
about how those of us that Do you want
me to take this foot back?
>> Oh, but it's great. It's fun to see that
guy. I It's funny that you you pulled
that out. I have to tell you, I I It's a
lovely It's a lovely thing.
I think there's something to learn from
those versions of oursel.
Like if you hang out with kids,
you you just see like
>> they don't have all that hate in their
heart. They hate naps. It's the end of
the list. Like everything else like they
just want to like love each other and
hug each other and play. And when they
like think they hurt someone, they stop
and they're very scared cuz they didn't
mean to. And then we turn into these
creatures that are just attacking each
other all the time, you know? And I
think at the end of the day, like all we
want is that. Like all we want is to
just be like that warm, open version of
ourselves before the world beat the [ __ ]
out of us. And maybe that's what love's
supposed to be. Like maybe what love is
is an opportunity for us to like
reconnect to that part of ourselves that
was just so simple. Like I just want you
to love me. I want to be loved by you. I
want you to feel worthy of my love. I
want to feel worthy of yours. Like, why
does it have to be so hard?
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I was thinking about how um there's a
lot of people that at a very early age
had to be very independent for whatever
reason. Maybe a parent wasn't around.
Maybe in your case, you know, I've
heard, you know, doing this podcast, you
get a bit of pattern recognition where
you you sometimes think, oh, okay, so if
one of the parents was an alcoholic,
>> adult children of alcoholics were were I
remember reading the book recovery,
adult children of alcoholics, I stumbled
on it when I was in college in a
bookstore and I remember reading it and
going, have they been reading my diary?
Like what the holy because there was
this profile of like one of the types
one of the archetypes of adult children
of alcoholics is that you yeah control control
control
like wanting to control everything
because life feels so chaotic when you
live with an alcoholic. When the person
who is supposed to be your primary
caregiver and the primary mechanism for
you to feel safe feels unpredictable and
chaotic and that is that creates in you
this constant sense of a heightened you
know heightened sense of I need to hold
on as tight as I can and also that drove
you to be incredibly independent. >> Yeah.
>> Yeah.
Independence and connection seem to be
on like two ends of the spectrum. And I say this in part because I look at
say this in part because I look at >> I look at all my friends that are very
>> I look at all my friends that are very very very independent and I would say
very very independent and I would say that they typically struggle the most to
that they typically struggle the most to form relationships because they've kind
form relationships because they've kind of built their own
of built their own >> castle with a moat.
>> castle with a moat. >> Yeah.
>> Yeah. And generally if we zoom out on this
And generally if we zoom out on this point of independence and dependency
point of independence and dependency >> I would say that the narrative in
>> I would say that the narrative in society over the last I know 10 20 years
society over the last I know 10 20 years or whatever has been
or whatever has been >> pointed at glorifying independence and
>> pointed at glorifying independence and not dependency. Dependency is like not
not dependency. Dependency is like not cool. It's like be your own boss start
cool. It's like be your own boss start your own business down on your own two
your own business down on your own two feet.
feet. >> Yeah. Yeah. I so I used to view
>> Yeah. Yeah. I so I used to view I would say the defining characteristics
I would say the defining characteristics of my 30s and 40s
of my 30s and 40s was the belief that there were two
was the belief that there were two versions of Jim Sexton.
versions of Jim Sexton. One was the one that was the most
One was the one that was the most forward- facing at that time which was
forward- facing at that time which was lead pipe cruelty and mercenary
lead pipe cruelty and mercenary sensibility. Like I'm I'm I'm going to
sensibility. Like I'm I'm I'm going to do this job. I'm going to do it really
do this job. I'm going to do it really well. I'm going to get better and better
well. I'm going to get better and better at it. I'm going to just take my skill
at it. I'm going to just take my skill set and weaponize it and that's who I'm
set and weaponize it and that's who I'm going to be. And then there was this
going to be. And then there was this other part of me that was always there.
other part of me that was always there. I kind of stuffed it in the closet for a
I kind of stuffed it in the closet for a while that like gets misty eyed when I
while that like gets misty eyed when I talk about love and cries when I think
talk about love and cries when I think about dogs and, you know, watches Love
about dogs and, you know, watches Love on the Spectrum and can't make it
on the Spectrum and can't make it through an episode without weeping three
through an episode without weeping three or four times. Like this very soft,
or four times. Like this very soft, gentle, loving, compassionate,
gentle, loving, compassionate, empathetic, sensitive part of me. And I
empathetic, sensitive part of me. And I felt like they were two waring forces.
felt like they were two waring forces. There were two versions of me. And the
There were two versions of me. And the question was, how can I beat that soft
question was, how can I beat that soft little, you know, wuss out of me and be
little, you know, wuss out of me and be the final form, which is like the me
the final form, which is like the me that's a machine that can just do it
that's a machine that can just do it like that can just do what needs to be
like that can just do what needs to be done and do it in a way that nobody else
done and do it in a way that nobody else can do. And I'm very blessed that I am
can do. And I'm very blessed that I am in my line of work. what yoyo ma is in
in my line of work. what yoyo ma is in cello like in a courtroom
cello like in a courtroom I have a god-given talent and I remember
I have a god-given talent and I remember thinking okay that's the final form of
thinking okay that's the final form of me is a master in the courtroom and and
me is a master in the courtroom and and everything else is just what do I need
everything else is just what do I need to do to get there I remember my ex-wife
to do to get there I remember my ex-wife saying to me you know you will never
saying to me you know you will never love any woman as much as you love the
love any woman as much as you love the law like every woman who you ever meet
law like every woman who you ever meet for the rest of your life will be
for the rest of your life will be playing second fiddle to how much you
playing second fiddle to how much you love being in a courtroom. You're great
love being in a courtroom. You're great in a courtroom and you have no idea what
in a courtroom and you have no idea what to do in your living room. Like in your
to do in your living room. Like in your living room, you're just totally
living room, you're just totally paralyzed. Whereas in a courtroom, you
paralyzed. Whereas in a courtroom, you know every it has why it has defined
know every it has why it has defined rules. It has a cadence. I know what the
rules. It has a cadence. I know what the goal is. Like I know exact it's
goal is. Like I know exact it's controlled chaos. I'm great at it. So
controlled chaos. I'm great at it. So there was a part of me that went, okay,
there was a part of me that went, okay, there's this soft, warm, wonderful,
there's this soft, warm, wonderful, lovely, empathetic side of me, and then
lovely, empathetic side of me, and then there's this real successful, and that's
there's this real successful, and that's the one that got me everywhere. That's
the one that got me everywhere. That's the one that got me everything I have.
the one that got me everything I have. So I have to figure out how to get rid
So I have to figure out how to get rid of this one and keep this one. Like,
of this one and keep this one. Like, and for my entire 30s and most of my
and for my entire 30s and most of my 40s, that was my primary thing was
40s, that was my primary thing was trying to figure out how to get rid of
trying to figure out how to get rid of that part of me. And no matter how
that part of me. And no matter how loudly I blared 9-in nails on on on on
loudly I blared 9-in nails on on on on my headphones and tried to become a
my headphones and tried to become a machine, I couldn't get rid of that part
machine, I couldn't get rid of that part of me. And then I came to realize, I
of me. And then I came to realize, I think in part because of this work. I
think in part because of this work. I think because of like somehow I stumbled
think because of like somehow I stumbled into
into being in a position where I end up
being in a position where I end up talking about feelings a whole lot. And
talking about feelings a whole lot. And it's somehow I I I got brought in to
it's somehow I I I got brought in to have go here's this interesting divorce
have go here's this interesting divorce lawyer who's going to talk about divorce
lawyer who's going to talk about divorce stuff and somehow ended up talking a lot
stuff and somehow ended up talking a lot about love and softness and warmth and
about love and softness and warmth and compassion.
compassion. >> I didn't think it somehow
>> I didn't think it somehow >> Yeah. No, exactly. And what I came to
>> Yeah. No, exactly. And what I came to learn from that from from giving that
learn from that from from giving that voice
voice is that there actually isn't two waring
is that there actually isn't two waring forces. It's two very authentic aspects
forces. It's two very authentic aspects of self that have to exist inside of me.
of self that have to exist inside of me. And each one of them creates the other
And each one of them creates the other in some ways. Like I don't think I'd be
in some ways. Like I don't think I'd be anywhere near as good of a lawyer and
anywhere near as good of a lawyer and courtroom advocate if I didn't have a
courtroom advocate if I didn't have a tremendous sensitivity and empathy and
tremendous sensitivity and empathy and couldn't put myself in the heads of the
couldn't put myself in the heads of the various people in the room. So I think
various people in the room. So I think that when we start to see what seems
that when we start to see what seems like opposite traits in us instead as
like opposite traits in us instead as authentic representations of aspects of
authentic representations of aspects of who we are that we have to learn how to
who we are that we have to learn how to do let them dance, let them move
do let them dance, let them move together in some way. And there's times
together in some way. And there's times where this guy should take the lead. And
where this guy should take the lead. And there's times where that very focused
there's times where that very focused self that you know is very
self that you know is very missiondriven, that person should lead.
missiondriven, that person should lead. And and for men in particular, like
And and for men in particular, like we've been taught a rigidity. Like the
we've been taught a rigidity. Like the gender role for men has a tremendous
gender role for men has a tremendous rigidity. I mean, I grew up in a time
rigidity. I mean, I grew up in a time where you either got to be Clint
where you either got to be Clint Eastwood or Richard Simmons. Those were
Eastwood or Richard Simmons. Those were your two choices. You either had to be,
your two choices. You either had to be, you know, like icy 100% or you had to
you know, like icy 100% or you had to be, you know, you could be warm and
be, you know, you could be warm and fuzzy, but then you were just not really
fuzzy, but then you were just not really masculine. And I just don't think that's
masculine. And I just don't think that's the case. Like you look at like I've
the case. Like you look at like I've spent 20 years on the Brazilian
spent 20 years on the Brazilian jiu-jitsu mat. I have to tell you like
jiu-jitsu mat. I have to tell you like there are some dudes could snap your
there are some dudes could snap your neck with like any with their thumb and
neck with like any with their thumb and they're some of the warmest most lovely
they're some of the warmest most lovely people because these are all authentic
people because these are all authentic aspects of self. And to know that like
aspects of self. And to know that like the soft warm version of me feeding it,
the soft warm version of me feeding it, letting it spend some time letting it be
letting it spend some time letting it be in conversation, it it makes me better
in conversation, it it makes me better at the other part. It makes me more
at the other part. It makes me more authentic. It makes me better at that
authentic. It makes me better at that part. And by the way, letting that part
part. And by the way, letting that part out, it hasn't done anything to diminish
out, it hasn't done anything to diminish this part. So when you start to see it
this part. So when you start to see it that way, I I really think that there's
that way, I I really think that there's a tremendous
a tremendous broader menu of possibilities out there.
broader menu of possibilities out there. I've got several friends in my life that
I've got several friends in my life that have really struggled with relationships
have really struggled with relationships and love. And uh for all those people
and love. And uh for all those people that have really really struggled in
that have really really struggled in love and they look around at everybody
love and they look around at everybody else and everybody else seems to have
else and everybody else seems to have worked it out or at least be working
worked it out or at least be working through a situation but they look at
through a situation but they look at themselves and go, "It just doesn't work
themselves and go, "It just doesn't work for me. What's going on? Why am I the
for me. What's going on? Why am I the only one in my friendship group that
only one in my friendship group that hasn't found love or isn't in a
hasn't found love or isn't in a relationship?" And they kind of beat
relationship?" And they kind of beat themselves up about it. I think that's a
themselves up about it. I think that's a great starting point. Why is this
great starting point. Why is this happening to me? and start looking at
happening to me? and start looking at when did it start happening and what's
when did it start happening and what's the consistent thread through all of it
the consistent thread through all of it and are there people that I could ask
and are there people that I could ask that question of who know me and love me
that question of who know me and love me and would be willing to tell me honestly
and would be willing to tell me honestly and if there aren't great what are some
and if there aren't great what are some resources out there in terms of the
resources out there in terms of the wisdom of other people that might share
wisdom of other people that might share that experience I think there's so many
that experience I think there's so many entry points to that conversation with
entry points to that conversation with yourself I think the start is to
yourself I think the start is to identify that yeah I'm drowning like
identify that yeah I'm drowning like what here's what the solution is not is
what here's what the solution is not is to pretend everything's fine. And that's
to pretend everything's fine. And that's the ecosystem we've created.
the ecosystem we've created. We're we're living our gag reel and
We're we're living our gag reel and watching everyone's greatest hits. And
watching everyone's greatest hits. And we're encouraged all day long to tell
we're encouraged all day long to tell everyone how great we're doing and how
everyone how great we're doing and how we're crushing it and how great we feel
we're crushing it and how great we feel and how focused we are. Because why?
and how focused we are. Because why? Because we're terrified that if we said,
Because we're terrified that if we said, "I don't know. I feel like I'm drowning.
"I don't know. I feel like I'm drowning. I feel like I'm drowning sometimes. I
I feel like I'm drowning sometimes. I have moments where I feel so put
have moments where I feel so put together and then I have moments where I
together and then I have moments where I think I'm drowning. And and by the way,
think I'm drowning. And and by the way, when people have that kind of honesty,
when people have that kind of honesty, there's something so beautiful about it.
there's something so beautiful about it. Like I have to tell you, like one of the
Like I have to tell you, like one of the things that people say about me when I
things that people say about me when I go, I don't understand why anything I'm
go, I don't understand why anything I'm saying resonates with anybody. People
saying resonates with anybody. People are like, "Dude, you're so real. It's so
are like, "Dude, you're so real. It's so real. It's so blunt and honest and like
real. It's so blunt and honest and like real." This is it's in every one of us
real." This is it's in every one of us is that same realness, that same basic
is that same realness, that same basic just all it is is just saying out loud
just all it is is just saying out loud like, "Yeah, I don't know. I don't know.
like, "Yeah, I don't know. I don't know. Like, I don't have it all figured out."
Like, I don't have it all figured out." AND THAT'S OKAY CUZ I HAVE SOME THINGS
AND THAT'S OKAY CUZ I HAVE SOME THINGS really figured out. So maybe if I've got
really figured out. So maybe if I've got these things really figured out and
these things really figured out and you've got these other things really
you've got these other things really figured out and we're just stop
figured out and we're just stop bullshitting each other for five minutes
bullshitting each other for five minutes and instead go, you know, I'm doing
and instead go, you know, I'm doing great on this, but like this I feel like
great on this, but like this I feel like I'm a train wreck on. Like every high
I'm a train wreck on. Like every high achieving friend I have, every celebrity
achieving friend I have, every celebrity friend I have, every per I have friends
friend I have, every per I have friends who people look at them and go, "Oh,
who people look at them and go, "Oh, dude, he is murdering it." Like you're
dude, he is murdering it." Like you're my friend. People look at you, they go,
my friend. People look at you, they go, "He's murdering it." There are aspects
"He's murdering it." There are aspects of your life that you're like, "I got to
of your life that you're like, "I got to work on that." There's tons of aspects
work on that." There's tons of aspects of my life where I go, I got to work on
of my life where I go, I got to work on that. Like I I figured all these other
that. Like I I figured all these other things out, but I haven't figured that
things out, but I haven't figured that out yet. And you know what? It's so
out yet. And you know what? It's so lovely to have that conversation. Like
lovely to have that conversation. Like why why can't we just make some space
why why can't we just make some space for that all of us a little bit more? I
for that all of us a little bit more? I don't think it's that hard.
don't think it's that hard. It's at least as important as our
It's at least as important as our workout routine. It's at least as
workout routine. It's at least as important as remembering someone's
important as remembering someone's birthday.
birthday. >> Yeah. I I I wonder why that I wonder why
>> Yeah. I I I wonder why that I wonder why it is that we um there's so little space
it is that we um there's so little space for us to work on our connection
for us to work on our connection challenges
challenges these days.
these days. >> It hasn't been prioritized. We become
>> It hasn't been prioritized. We become what we behold. We prioritize what we've
what we behold. We prioritize what we've been told to prioritize. We've been told
been told to prioritize. We've been told to prioritize conspicuous consumption.
to prioritize conspicuous consumption. >> We've been taught that the measure of a
>> We've been taught that the measure of a person is is how much financial success
person is is how much financial success they have. That's why I genuinely
they have. That's why I genuinely believe that if we continue to barrel
believe that if we continue to barrel along
along using this the metric of success being
using this the metric of success being financial above all else really
financial above all else really consumption, what we own, what we wear,
consumption, what we own, what we wear, what we have or how we look, right? as
what we have or how we look, right? as the priority, we're barreling towards
the priority, we're barreling towards nothing. Whereas if we were to change
nothing. Whereas if we were to change that and say, hey, like joy, peace,
that and say, hey, like joy, peace, finding some peace within ourselves,
finding some peace within ourselves, finding some balance that feels right to
finding some balance that feels right to us individually.
us individually. >> I think that's a really good simple word
>> I think that's a really good simple word which people don't think about enough
which people don't think about enough when they're thinking about the KPIs of
when they're thinking about the KPIs of success in their life, which is how do I
success in their life, which is how do I feel? And I think we've all grown up in
feel? And I think we've all grown up in different contexts learning to tune out
different contexts learning to tune out of how I feel and in its place put how
of how I feel and in its place put how does the world feel about me as like the
does the world feel about me as like the primary metric. And it's like I I was
primary metric. And it's like I I was thinking the other day that actually,
thinking the other day that actually, you know, we can go do all these
you know, we can go do all these podcasts and books and whatever else,
podcasts and books and whatever else, but we were all born with this sort of
but we were all born with this sort of internal compass that tells you every
internal compass that tells you every day how you feel, but like none of us
day how you feel, but like none of us tune into it.
tune into it. >> Yeah. Yeah. And actually the metric
>> Yeah. Yeah. And actually the metric becomes like how many followers do you
becomes like how many followers do you have? How rich are you? How
have? How rich are you? How >> it's beaten out of us by the world. Like
>> it's beaten out of us by the world. Like I I I will tell you, you always get the
I I I will tell you, you always get the most emotional stuff out of me, Stephen.
most emotional stuff out of me, Stephen. I will tell you my most shameful moment
I will tell you my most shameful moment as a parent.
as a parent. So I have two sons. They're 26 and 28.
So I have two sons. They're 26 and 28. 28-year-old just got married in
28-year-old just got married in September. He's a lawyer. He's awesome.
September. He's a lawyer. He's awesome. He must have been five or six.
He must have been five or six. and something happened
and something happened like and he was he started crying like
like and he was he started crying like someone hurt his feelings or something
someone hurt his feelings or something happened but it wasn't I don't know it
happened but it wasn't I don't know it wasn't that big of a deal like it it to
wasn't that big of a deal like it it to me at the moment I mean I was in my 20s
me at the moment I mean I was in my 20s he was 24 when I I was 24 when he was
he was 24 when I I was 24 when he was born so yeah I was in my 20s and he was
born so yeah I was in my 20s and he was crying he was crying and like I wanted
crying he was crying and like I wanted him to stop crying because it made me
him to stop crying because it made me sad to see him cry like I love him so
sad to see him cry like I love him so much like that I was like it made me so
much like that I was like it made me so uncomfortable able to see him crying.
uncomfortable able to see him crying. And I remember I like I like grabbed
And I remember I like I like grabbed him, not roughly, I grabbed him and I
him, not roughly, I grabbed him and I just looked at him and I was like,
just looked at him and I was like, "Control yourself." I'm like, "Control
"Control yourself." I'm like, "Control yourself." I'm like, "Calm down and
yourself." I'm like, "Calm down and control yourself."
control yourself." And I remember like he he managed to do
And I remember like he he managed to do it.
it. It's 20some years later. Like, and I I'm
It's 20some years later. Like, and I I'm ashamed of that moment.
because I understand what I was trying to say to him. Like I was trying to say
to say to him. Like I was trying to say to him, I I don't want you to be in
to him, I I don't want you to be in pain. Like I'm uncomfortable with your
pain. Like I'm uncomfortable with your pain. I also wanted I wanted to say
pain. I also wanted I wanted to say something to this guy probably which is
something to this guy probably which is like dude like the world's not going to
like dude like the world's not going to be nice to you if it knows that you have
be nice to you if it knows that you have all these feelings. Like you got to find
all these feelings. Like you got to find a way to hide it. There's so much going
a way to hide it. There's so much going on in that moment. But like I look back
on in that moment. But like I look back on that moment and I just think like
on that moment and I just think like no like that was the wrong thing to do.
no like that was the wrong thing to do. Like it was the wrong thing to do. Like
Like it was the wrong thing to do. Like I don't think we should be telling
I don't think we should be telling people not just boys like boys
people not just boys like boys particularly maybe. But I don't think we
particularly maybe. But I don't think we should be telling people like control
should be telling people like control yourself. Like stop feeling so much.
yourself. Like stop feeling so much. Like I think I think
Like I think I think I think there's a difference between
I think there's a difference between trying to like get people to control
trying to like get people to control their feelings and not letting like
their feelings and not letting like everything be governed by the transient
everything be governed by the transient feelings that you have from moment to
feelings that you have from moment to moment. And I I think it's a harder more
moment. And I I think it's a harder more subtle message. But like I think fe if
subtle message. But like I think fe if we lead with the feelings, if we lean
we lead with the feelings, if we lean into the feelings first, if we identify
into the feelings first, if we identify the feelings first, if we figure out
the feelings first, if we figure out what it is we want to feel, we want the
what it is we want to feel, we want the other person to feel to bring it back to
other person to feel to bring it back to marriage to bring it back to connection
marriage to bring it back to connection that what were the questions I was
that what were the questions I was asking earlier that that exercise. When
asking earlier that that exercise. When did I make you feel loved this week?
did I make you feel loved this week? Here's some things you did that made me
Here's some things you did that made me feel loved this week. Here's some things
feel loved this week. Here's some things that made me feel desire towards you
that made me feel desire towards you this week. Here's some things you did
this week. Here's some things you did this week that made me feel less than
this week that made me feel less than loved by you or that made me feel less
loved by you or that made me feel less connected to you. Like what? Maybe we
connected to you. Like what? Maybe we just need to help each other learn
just need to help each other learn how to identify our feelings and feel
how to identify our feelings and feel our feelings. Like maybe we need more
our feelings. Like maybe we need more Mr. Rogers and less, you know, intense
Mr. Rogers and less, you know, intense self-help. Like maybe we just need more
self-help. Like maybe we just need more help not trying to control our feelings,
help not trying to control our feelings, but just figure out what they are and
but just figure out what they are and feel them. I think, you know, a lot of
feel them. I think, you know, a lot of us are distracting ourselves as a way to
us are distracting ourselves as a way to avoid feeling anything because even I
avoid feeling anything because even I was thinking about like a practical way
was thinking about like a practical way for you to get back in touch with
for you to get back in touch with actually how you're feeling. Yeah.
actually how you're feeling. Yeah. >> And every solution I came up with was
>> And every solution I came up with was like interrupted by doom.
like interrupted by doom. >> Well, the best definition of addiction
>> Well, the best definition of addiction I've ever heard was from a therapist
I've ever heard was from a therapist Dave Klugman
Dave Klugman >> who said to me, um, addiction is
>> who said to me, um, addiction is anything you do to get away from feeling
anything you do to get away from feeling what you would would have felt if you'd
what you would would have felt if you'd done nothing at all. And I've always
done nothing at all. And I've always said to people, work is my favorite
said to people, work is my favorite narcotic.
narcotic. Like if you look at the most productive
Like if you look at the most productive times in my life, they were almost
times in my life, they were almost always when something awful was
always when something awful was happening in my personal life. Either I
happening in my personal life. Either I was getting divorced, my mother was
was getting divorced, my mother was dying, some some painful thing was
dying, some some painful thing was happening. So I took tremendous comfort
happening. So I took tremendous comfort in feeling in control and competent,
in feeling in control and competent, which is how I feel at work. So the the
which is how I feel at work. So the the more I'm working is usually a gauge of
more I'm working is usually a gauge of of where there are aspects of my life
of where there are aspects of my life that I don't want to feel certain
that I don't want to feel certain things. And again, that's why I think
things. And again, that's why I think that the the best question to ask at the
that the the best question to ask at the start of therapy, the only question
start of therapy, the only question really, is what is it I'm afraid to
really, is what is it I'm afraid to feel?
feel? I think because we're closing off on
I think because we're closing off on this section where we were talking about
this section where we were talking about people who have struggled in love, it is
people who have struggled in love, it is probably worth just closing the section
probably worth just closing the section by
by giving them
giving them a why as to
a why as to like the the reason why they should take
like the the reason why they should take love seriously and stop distracting
love seriously and stop distracting themselves and stop avoiding it and stop
themselves and stop avoiding it and stop avoiding going to therapy,
avoiding going to therapy, >> brushing it under the carpet.
>> brushing it under the carpet. like what what is what is the why there?
like what what is what is the why there? Why should they take love seriously?
Why should they take love seriously? Because they could continue to, you
Because they could continue to, you know, bomb on for the next 10, 20 years
know, bomb on for the next 10, 20 years and become
and become >> really professionally accomplished.
>> really professionally accomplished. >> Mhm.
>> Mhm. >> And, you know, get rich, nice house,
>> And, you know, get rich, nice house, nice holidays.
nice holidays. >> Yeah. Those are all great things. Those
>> Yeah. Those are all great things. Those are all worthy pursuits.
I think when you look back on your life, whatever stage of your life you're in,
whatever stage of your life you're in, most people
most people will recall a moment where they felt
will recall a moment where they felt loved or where they felt tremendous love
loved or where they felt tremendous love as the highest points of their life.
as the highest points of their life. I I think even celebrity and I represent
I I think even celebrity and I represent a lot of celebrities and now like you
a lot of celebrities and now like you I've had a little taste of it.
That's really just the praise of strangers. It's like the love of
strangers. It's like the love of strangers, which is lovely. It's lovely.
strangers, which is lovely. It's lovely. It's like neutrieet. It's sweet. It's
It's like neutrieet. It's sweet. It's not sugar, but it's sweet. Like, feels
not sugar, but it's sweet. Like, feels good to have strangers adore you. It's
good to have strangers adore you. It's lovely, you know? But is it the same as
lovely, you know? But is it the same as having someone who genuinely knows you
having someone who genuinely knows you and has a history of with you and really
and has a history of with you and really loves you? Like I think all of us know
loves you? Like I think all of us know if we're honest that when we look back
if we're honest that when we look back on our life at the moments where we felt
on our life at the moments where we felt the most glad that we're here, it was
the most glad that we're here, it was usually
usually something that we felt that made us feel
something that we felt that made us feel loved or that we got to feel loved
loved or that we got to feel loved towards someone else or or ideally a
towards someone else or or ideally a combination of the two. So I think
combination of the two. So I think romantic love is a great opportunity and
romantic love is a great opportunity and you don't have to be someone who's
you don't have to be someone who's religious and therefore believes that
religious and therefore believes that marriage is a sacrament that you're
marriage is a sacrament that you're called to for the purpose of creating
called to for the purpose of creating children. You don't have to be someone
children. You don't have to be someone who believes that you know marriage is
who believes that you know marriage is good for society and therefore that's
good for society and therefore that's why we have to do it is if you love
why we have to do it is if you love America or you love the UK you have to
America or you love the UK you have to do this for the country. It really can
do this for the country. It really can just be to look inside your own
just be to look inside your own experience as a human being and look
experience as a human being and look inside your own feelings and say, "Okay,
inside your own feelings and say, "Okay, when have I felt truly loved? When have
when have I felt truly loved? When have I felt love? And were those the highest
I felt love? And were those the highest moments in my life? Were those the best
moments in my life? Were those the best moments in my life?" A lot of those
moments in my life?" A lot of those other things that you just described
other things that you just described like holiday, it's usually not by
like holiday, it's usually not by yourself. It's usually with other
yourself. It's usually with other people. It's usually with someone. Even
people. It's usually with someone. Even if it's transient love, it's some kind
if it's transient love, it's some kind of connection to another person. So the
of connection to another person. So the the bigger question is is is the unique
the bigger question is is is the unique form of love that that comes with a pair
form of love that that comes with a pair bond, right? I you find one person and
bond, right? I you find one person and you make that person your person. Like
you make that person your person. Like is that the permutation that works for
is that the permutation that works for you? And I think there are a lot of
you? And I think there are a lot of people who try at that and fail. The
people who try at that and fail. The majority of people try at that and fail.
majority of people try at that and fail. Is the solution to that to give up on
Is the solution to that to give up on it? I don't think so. I think the
it? I don't think so. I think the solution to it is to figure out when it
solution to it is to figure out when it works because when it works, it it's so
works because when it works, it it's so good, right? Talk to anybody who's
good, right? Talk to anybody who's really had a great successful long-term
really had a great successful long-term relationship. Again, even if it
relationship. Again, even if it eventually ends, even if you know,
eventually ends, even if you know, happily ever after means happily ever
happily ever after means happily ever after separately. If you had 10, 20
after separately. If you had 10, 20 years of your life where you felt deep,
years of your life where you felt deep, wonderful intimate connection with
wonderful intimate connection with another person and great sexual
another person and great sexual satisfaction and all kinds of other
satisfaction and all kinds of other things like you know at best right like
things like you know at best right like you're you're getting married okay and
you're you're getting married okay and if you have a monogous marriage I would
if you have a monogous marriage I would like to think that
like to think that you will sleep with as many women as you
you will sleep with as many women as you want to which will be one
want to which will be one and she will sleep with as many men as
and she will sleep with as many men as she wants to, which will be one. Cuz
she wants to, which will be one. Cuz when I'm full,
when I'm full, I'm not hungry. I don't need more to
I'm not hungry. I don't need more to eat. Like when I'm satisfied, I don't
eat. Like when I'm satisfied, I don't need more. Like if if the goal of a
need more. Like if if the goal of a monogous marriage, if the goal of a
monogous marriage, if the goal of a traditional marriage is that we're going
traditional marriage is that we're going to say to each other, "Hey, you and I,
to say to each other, "Hey, you and I, we're going to share space. We're going
we're going to share space. We're going to share a journey together. We're going
to share a journey together. We're going to play a very important role in each
to play a very important role in each other's lives. We're going to add to
other's lives. We're going to add to that. there's this romantic and sexual
that. there's this romantic and sexual component which makes it something other
component which makes it something other than a friendship and most marriages
than a friendship and most marriages you're saying we're going to only share
you're saying we're going to only share that aspect of self with each other.
that aspect of self with each other. Okay. So if that's what you want and
Okay. So if that's what you want and what comes from that is you know
what comes from that is you know something you want to feel and that is I
something you want to feel and that is I want to feel deeply connected. I want to
want to feel deeply connected. I want to feel a connection that gets deeper and
feel a connection that gets deeper and deeper. I want to feel safe in this
deeper. I want to feel safe in this relationship. Emotionally, physically, I
relationship. Emotionally, physically, I want to feel safe in it. Like, I just
want to feel safe in it. Like, I just think that there's tremendous value in
think that there's tremendous value in saying that out loud to each other from
saying that out loud to each other from the beginning and saying to each other,
the beginning and saying to each other, what can we do to to if we both have
what can we do to to if we both have decided this is something we're going to
decided this is something we're going to do, we don't have to do it, but we're
do, we don't have to do it, but we're going to do it. How can we keep this
going to do it. How can we keep this thing lovely and connected? And I I
thing lovely and connected? And I I think the answer really is not that
think the answer really is not that complicated.
complicated. >> Do you think prenups help marriages
>> Do you think prenups help marriages last?
last? >> Yes.
>> Yes. >> You're saying that as a divorce lawyer
>> You're saying that as a divorce lawyer who gets paid to write them?
who gets paid to write them? >> No. Because it's the least profitable
>> No. Because it's the least profitable thing we do.
thing we do. >> Oh, okay.
>> Oh, okay. >> Yeah. Prenups are so easy. Like they're,
>> Yeah. Prenups are so easy. Like they're, you know, they're really like to the
you know, they're really like to the point now where they're essentially
point now where they're essentially automated. Like I see a future where AI
automated. Like I see a future where AI is just going to do them. Like it's
is just going to do them. Like it's really not that tricky.
really not that tricky. >> Do you think I should get a prenup?
>> Do you think I should get a prenup? >> Yes, of course.
>> Yes, of course. >> Why do you think I should get a prenup?
>> Why do you think I should get a prenup? >> You have a prenup? It'll either be
>> You have a prenup? It'll either be written by the state legislature or
written by the state legislature or it'll be written by you and she. Who do
it'll be written by you and she. Who do you trust more? You've been to the DMV.
you trust more? You've been to the DMV. Have you walked into the DMV and went,
Have you walked into the DMV and went, "Oh, these people are great. They should
"Oh, these people are great. They should be in charge of everything." I mean, you
be in charge of everything." I mean, you know what? They should make the rules
know what? They should make the rules for our marriage. And by the way, even
for our marriage. And by the way, even though this legislature changes
though this legislature changes constantly, like whoever you are,
constantly, like whoever you are, whatever your political views are, in
whatever your political views are, in the last 20 years, at some point you've
the last 20 years, at some point you've gone, I cannot believe who's in charge
gone, I cannot believe who's in charge here. I cannot believe who's in charge
here. I cannot believe who's in charge of the government. Whatever side of the
of the government. Whatever side of the aisle you're on. So what you're saying
aisle you're on. So what you're saying cuz your marriage has a prenup. You get
cuz your marriage has a prenup. You get married, you've got a prenup. You're
married, you've got a prenup. You're saying I trust the legislature of the
saying I trust the legislature of the state in which we will be residing in
state in which we will be residing in the future in the event we break up more
the future in the event we break up more than I trust my partner who I've chosen
than I trust my partner who I've chosen out of 8 billion options.
out of 8 billion options. >> I imagine a lot of people listening
>> I imagine a lot of people listening would
would be scared to mention a prenup to their
be scared to mention a prenup to their partner.
partner. >> And those people in particular, by the
>> And those people in particular, by the way, it's just like I said about, you
way, it's just like I said about, you know, I don't have 15 minutes a day to
know, I don't have 15 minutes a day to meditate. Great. that you need an hour.
meditate. Great. that you need an hour. If you'd be scared to mention a prenup
If you'd be scared to mention a prenup to your partner, then then you should
to your partner, then then you should definitely mention a prenup to your
definitely mention a prenup to your partner because what that means is I'm
partner because what that means is I'm afraid to have a hard conversation with
afraid to have a hard conversation with my partner. And if you're going to get
my partner. And if you're going to get married, you should get accustomed to
married, you should get accustomed to having hard conversations. Life is going
having hard conversations. Life is going to come at you very fast. And there's
to come at you very fast. And there's going to be lots of things that happen
going to be lots of things that happen that require hard conversations.
that require hard conversations. >> What if my partner says no?
>> What if my partner says no? >> Says no to the prenup.
>> Says no to the prenup. >> Yeah.
>> Yeah. have a conversation about why
have a conversation about why >> and they say you don't trust me like you
>> and they say you don't trust me like you think I'm going to take your stuff. This
think I'm going to take your stuff. This is not very sexy. This is
is not very sexy. This is >> well arguably you don't trust me
>> well arguably you don't trust me equally, right? Because that trust works
equally, right? Because that trust works both ways. So what what what you're
both ways. So what what what you're saying when you say you don't trust me
saying when you say you don't trust me is you're saying that you don't trust
is you're saying that you don't trust that this marriage is going to last or
that this marriage is going to last or you don't trust you're saying you don't
you don't trust you're saying you don't trust that in the event this marriage
trust that in the event this marriage ends we won't be fair to each other.
ends we won't be fair to each other. Right? So, why would you marry someone
Right? So, why would you marry someone who you don't believe that they're going
who you don't believe that they're going to be fair to you? What you're you're
to be fair to you? What you're you're not protecting yourselves against each
not protecting yourselves against each other. You're protecting yourselves
other. You're protecting yourselves against the government making the rule
against the government making the rule set in the event that that your marriage
set in the event that that your marriage ends in something other than death.
ends in something other than death. >> You know, I've got a friend um there's
>> You know, I've got a friend um there's two people that convinced me that I
two people that convinced me that I should get a prenup.
should get a prenup. >> One of them was you.
>> One of them was you. >> Thanks. Um, and then the other was
>> Thanks. Um, and then the other was watching a friend go through divorce and
watching a friend go through divorce and he said to me actually when we we went
he said to me actually when we we went for dinner one time that it was it was
for dinner one time that it was it was it was looking at his face and seeing
it was looking at his face and seeing the like depression in his face from the
the like depression in his face from the process because not only had it ruined
process because not only had it ruined his relationship with his ex-wife
his relationship with his ex-wife because they've gone through this
because they've gone through this onslaught for seven years where two sets
onslaught for seven years where two sets of lawyers were fighting either side. He
of lawyers were fighting either side. He said that he had paid for the lawyer her
said that he had paid for the lawyer her lawyers
lawyers >> which he has to do which I I wasn't
>> which he has to do which I I wasn't >> Yeah. There's a presumption that the
>> Yeah. There's a presumption that the higher earning individual should be
higher earning individual should be responsible for the legal reasonable
responsible for the legal reasonable legal fees of the the less uh earning
legal fees of the the less uh earning spouse.
spouse. >> He said her lawyer has now got like a
>> He said her lawyer has now got like a skyscraper whereas when this divorce
skyscraper whereas when this divorce started he was in a small little office.
started he was in a small little office. Now he's got like some massive building
Now he's got like some massive building because he's had to spend tens of
because he's had to spend tens of millions on her lawyers.
millions on her lawyers. >> And
>> And >> yeah, I've had clients who paid
>> yeah, I've had clients who paid millions. The other thing he said was
millions. The other thing he said was that he has
that he has her lawyer is trying to inflate his
her lawyer is trying to inflate his assets
assets >> to tell the judge that his business is
>> to tell the judge that his business is worth
worth >> billions of dollars when now I know why
>> billions of dollars when now I know why this divorce is taking so long. They
this divorce is taking so long. They have dueling experts. So instead of of
have dueling experts. So instead of of the two lawyers hiring neutral a neutral
the two lawyers hiring neutral a neutral expert to value his business interests,
expert to value his business interests, what they've elected to do instead is to
what they've elected to do instead is to hire individual partisan experts. And
hire individual partisan experts. And that happens sometimes. And when you
that happens sometimes. And when you hire an individual partisan expert, of
hire an individual partisan expert, of course you're going to, you know, if you
course you're going to, you know, if you represent the party who wants half of
represent the party who wants half of this thing, you're going to find
this thing, you're going to find someone. You can, the cigarette
someone. You can, the cigarette companies had doctors who were willing
companies had doctors who were willing to testify that cigarettes are good for
to testify that cigarettes are good for you. Like you can find an expert to say
you. Like you can find an expert to say almost anything if you pay them enough.
almost anything if you pay them enough. So you find credible experts that will
So you find credible experts that will overly value the business and then
overly value the business and then because value is speculative and then
because value is speculative and then the other side has an incentive to hire
the other side has an incentive to hire experts who will deliberately diminish
experts who will deliberately diminish the value of the business and then you
the value of the business and then you have two opportunities. One is you can
have two opportunities. One is you can play with the data set and you can
play with the data set and you can impeach the data set and then the other
impeach the data set and then the other is you can impeach the conclusion that
is you can impeach the conclusion that came from the data set. So you can say
came from the data set. So you can say you used the wrong data and that's how
you used the wrong data and that's how you got to the wrong conclusion. Or you
you got to the wrong conclusion. Or you can say you use the right data but you
can say you use the right data but you came to the wrong conclusion or some
came to the wrong conclusion or some combination of both. Like this is the
combination of both. Like this is the [ __ ] I get to do all day in a courtroom
[ __ ] I get to do all day in a courtroom is to like try to engineer those optics
is to like try to engineer those optics or prevent those optics from being
or prevent those optics from being engineered in that direction.
engineered in that direction. >> And say that I was going through a
>> And say that I was going through a divorce now with my partner. Mhm.
divorce now with my partner. Mhm. >> My wife would well her lawyer would
>> My wife would well her lawyer would theoretically be trying to say that this
theoretically be trying to say that this podcast is worth a billion dollars
podcast is worth a billion dollars because then theoretically
because then theoretically >> she's entitled to a larger percentage.
>> she's entitled to a larger percentage. Yeah.
Yeah. >> She might be entitled to 500 million.
>> She might be entitled to 500 million. And if the judge believes that this
And if the judge believes that this podcast is worth a billion, I need to
podcast is worth a billion, I need to find a way to pay her 500 million.
find a way to pay her 500 million. >> Yeah.
>> Yeah. >> Even if I don't have it,
>> Even if I don't have it, >> it can be paid over time. It's what's
>> it can be paid over time. It's what's called a distributive award. It can be
called a distributive award. It can be paid over an extended period of time.
paid over an extended period of time. That's
That's >> and my lawyer is going to be trying to
>> and my lawyer is going to be trying to argue that this is worth nothing.
argue that this is worth nothing. >> Nothing. It's absolutely effortless.
>> Nothing. It's absolutely effortless. It's worth nothing. You should have
It's worth nothing. You should have negative contingency discounts, a key
negative contingency discounts, a key man discount. It's a lack of discount
man discount. It's a lack of discount for marketability. There's Yeah, this is
for marketability. There's Yeah, this is all I do all day. This is the gig. And
all I do all day. This is the gig. And and see, you know why you want a prenup
and see, you know why you want a prenup is cuz God forbid for both of you that
is cuz God forbid for both of you that that happens. Like you're you're going
that happens. Like you're you're going to pay me. I get a thousand dollars an
to pay me. I get a thousand dollars an hour to help people navigate that kind
hour to help people navigate that kind of chaos or to create that kind of chaos
of chaos or to create that kind of chaos as a weapon against a person or to just
as a weapon against a person or to just threaten that kind of chaos.
threaten that kind of chaos. >> Doesn't that mean it's your in your
>> Doesn't that mean it's your in your interest to stretch to amplify conflict
interest to stretch to amplify conflict and stretch it out and protract it? And
and stretch it out and protract it? And by the way, I manipulate people's
by the way, I manipulate people's emotional state for a living. I said
emotional state for a living. I said that earlier. You don't think I could
that earlier. You don't think I could use my powers for evil to get my client
use my powers for evil to get my client terrified and worried that forces are
terrified and worried that forces are aligning against him? By the way, that's
aligning against him? By the way, that's how good lawyers get their reputation as
how good lawyers get their reputation as being good lawyers because sometimes we
being good lawyers because sometimes we have a client where we could potentially
have a client where we could potentially make millions of dollars and we settle
make millions of dollars and we settle the case within like $10,000 worth of
the case within like $10,000 worth of fee. Like I have a case right now where
fee. Like I have a case right now where my opposing council is I I would
my opposing council is I I would consider the only lawyer in New York
consider the only lawyer in New York City better than me. like he's sort of
City better than me. like he's sort of like an idol to me in the sense that
like an idol to me in the sense that he's such a good trial lawyer and he's
he's such a good trial lawyer and he's my adversary on this case and it's not
my adversary on this case and it's not the first case we've had against each
the first case we've had against each other and we are like when the two of us
other and we are like when the two of us go in a courtroom it's like T-Rexes
go in a courtroom it's like T-Rexes fighting
fighting we're going to settle this case in like
we're going to settle this case in like two phone calls because we both are just
two phone calls because we both are just not the kind of people that are going to
not the kind of people that are going to unnecessarily amplify conflict. We we we
unnecessarily amplify conflict. We we we have our reputation because we don't do
have our reputation because we don't do that. Like the best of us, that's how
that. Like the best of us, that's how you earn the reputation. The people that
you earn the reputation. The people that do that amplifying of conflict, word
do that amplifying of conflict, word gets out. Word gets out and that's this
gets out. Word gets out and that's this is a business where you live and die by
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I will speak to you there. >> So, I have
>> So, I have some M&M's here or something.
some M&M's here or something. >> You love M&M's. Um, explain to me.
>> You love M&M's. Um, explain to me. >> So, this is actually a great
>> So, this is actually a great illustration of what a prenup should be.
illustration of what a prenup should be. Okay. All a prenup is, a prenup is not a
Okay. All a prenup is, a prenup is not a referendum on the likelihood of us
referendum on the likelihood of us breaking up. A prenup is not a
breaking up. A prenup is not a commentary on how much we trust each
commentary on how much we trust each other. A prenup is not um, you know, an
other. A prenup is not um, you know, an opportunity to screw the person you're
opportunity to screw the person you're about to join lives with. Okay? A prenup
about to join lives with. Okay? A prenup is a rule set. It's creating tranches.
is a rule set. It's creating tranches. Okay? So, you have some things. She has
Okay? So, you have some things. She has some things. Right now, you don't owe
some things. Right now, you don't owe her anything. She doesn't owe you
her anything. She doesn't owe you anything. Yours is yours. Hers is hers.
anything. Yours is yours. Hers is hers. You're in the title system.
You're in the title system. >> Can we talk about if we're just dating?
>> Can we talk about if we're just dating? >> So, if we're dating, I heard that
>> So, if we're dating, I heard that there's some laws where if you date
there's some laws where if you date someone long enough, eventually they can
someone long enough, eventually they can basically argue that they own your
basically argue that they own your stuff.
stuff. >> Yeah. So that's called what used to be
>> Yeah. So that's called what used to be called common law marriage or it makes
called common law marriage or it makes you responsible for what we used to call
you responsible for what we used to call palimony which is like alimony for a
palimony which is like alimony for a friend palimony. Okay. Um most
friend palimony. Okay. Um most jurisdictions no longer honor that. It
jurisdictions no longer honor that. It doesn't exist. It was largely a function
doesn't exist. It was largely a function of the absence of marriage equality. So
of the absence of marriage equality. So once marriage equality occurred, once
once marriage equality occurred, once gay and lesbian individuals could marry,
gay and lesbian individuals could marry, the court system essentially started
the court system essentially started saying there's no such thing as a quasi
saying there's no such thing as a quasi marital relationship anymore. If you are
marital relationship anymore. If you are married, you're married. If you're not,
married, you're married. If you're not, you're not. So, if you decide to live
you're not. So, if you decide to live together and you don't have a marriage,
together and you don't have a marriage, then you can't have a quasi marital
then you can't have a quasi marital relationship anymore. Now that marriage
relationship anymore. Now that marriage equality is the law of the land and
equality is the law of the land and everyone who wants to get married is
everyone who wants to get married is allowed to get married. You can't say,
allowed to get married. You can't say, "Well, we were kind of like married, but
"Well, we were kind of like married, but we weren't married." Like, you're either
we weren't married." Like, you're either married or you're not married. Those are
married or you're not married. Those are the two tranches. So, that situation,
the two tranches. So, that situation, you're in the title system. Yours is
you're in the title system. Yours is yours, hers is hers. There is no wei
yours, hers is hers. There is no wei except for the voluntary wei.
except for the voluntary wei. >> Okay. So now using coming back to this
>> Okay. So now using coming back to this example of these M&Ms and prenups.
example of these M&Ms and prenups. >> So here's what marriage is simply put.
>> So here's what marriage is simply put. There's you, there's me, this is we.
There's you, there's me, this is we. This is the bucket of we. Okay? When we
This is the bucket of we. Okay? When we get married, we're going to take you.
I didn't put it all. See how I didn't put it all? Okay, I'm keeping this
put it all? Okay, I'm keeping this separate. That's called separate
separate. That's called separate property. Okay, in California, this is
property. Okay, in California, this is called community property. This is
called community property. This is anything I acquire during the marriage.
anything I acquire during the marriage. Okay, this is separate property. If I
Okay, this is separate property. If I keep it separate, it stays separate.
keep it separate, it stays separate. Okay, it stays separate. Keep that
Okay, it stays separate. Keep that thought. This is her. Okay.
So, she's put some of hers in there, too. May not be exactly the same, but
too. May not be exactly the same, but it's pretty close to it. And by the way,
it's pretty close to it. And by the way, we just got married. It's pretty obvious
we just got married. It's pretty obvious to see which one's which, right? Okay.
to see which one's which, right? Okay. So, so this is any marriage really, with
So, so this is any marriage really, with or without a prenup. Okay? This is what
or without a prenup. Okay? This is what marriage looks like. There's you and
marriage looks like. There's you and there's me and there's we. We're
there's me and there's we. We're combining. And by the way, this isn't
combining. And by the way, this isn't just for assets and liabilities. This is
just for assets and liabilities. This is like the nature of our stuff, our
like the nature of our stuff, our furniture, the things we bring to the
furniture, the things we bring to the relationship. You could even argue it's
relationship. You could even argue it's like what we watch on TV, right? It's
like what we watch on TV, right? It's you, me, we, and we combine the two.
you, me, we, and we combine the two. Okay. Now, you and I both know this is
Okay. Now, you and I both know this is actually what it starts to look like. It
actually what it starts to look like. It never stays just neat, does it? It
never stays just neat, does it? It always starts to get kind of mixed up
always starts to get kind of mixed up together. In the law, we call that
together. In the law, we call that co-mingling. Okay. Now, here's what's
co-mingling. Okay. Now, here's what's interesting with a prenup. This stays
interesting with a prenup. This stays this simple because anything you put in
this simple because anything you put in this bucket is marital.
this bucket is marital. >> And that could be stuff I bought for the
>> And that could be stuff I bought for the house. It could be a joint bank account.
house. It could be a joint bank account. It
It >> could be anything.
>> could be anything. >> Okay? All we're doing when we have a
>> Okay? All we're doing when we have a prenup is yours, mine, ours, and we're
prenup is yours, mine, ours, and we're defining that. So maybe I want you to
defining that. So maybe I want you to feel I'm very invested in this
feel I'm very invested in this relationship. So I throw some more in.
relationship. So I throw some more in. Hey babe, I just got a bonus at work.
Hey babe, I just got a bonus at work. I'm throwing it into the wei. I'm
I'm throwing it into the wei. I'm keeping a little over here. I'm keeping
keeping a little over here. I'm keeping a little over here.
a little over here. >> Wait, can you do that after the
>> Wait, can you do that after the marriage?
marriage? >> With a prenup?
>> With a prenup? >> Yeah.
>> Yeah. >> So, you can add to a prenup.
>> So, you can add to a prenup. >> With a prenup, what you're saying is if
>> With a prenup, what you're saying is if it's in my name, it's mine. Asset or
it's in my name, it's mine. Asset or liability. If it's in your name, it's
liability. If it's in your name, it's yours. Asset or liability. If it's in
yours. Asset or liability. If it's in our joint names, we divide it 50/50 or
our joint names, we divide it 50/50 or how we agree in writing. But we create
how we agree in writing. But we create three separate buckets. Yours, mine, and
three separate buckets. Yours, mine, and ours. Okay? Do you know what happens in
ours. Okay? Do you know what happens in the state of California after seven
the state of California after seven years or in the state of New York if you
years or in the state of New York if you co-mingle assets in any way?
co-mingle assets in any way? This is solely things in your name. This
This is solely things in your name. This is solely things in her name. Things you
is solely things in her name. Things you owned before marriage. This is the you
owned before marriage. This is the you and the me before you got married.
It's community property now. All of it. >> Everything.
>> Everything. >> All of it. Every bit of it. You didn't
>> All of it. Every bit of it. You didn't have a prenup. Everything that's in it,
have a prenup. Everything that's in it, everything in here is is subject to
everything in here is is subject to division. Everything that's in here is
division. Everything that's in here is subject to identification, valuation,
subject to identification, valuation, and division. And think about think
and division. And think about think about
about sorting that out.
sorting that out. >> And also going back to my friend, some
>> And also going back to my friend, some of the value of these assets is up for
of the value of these assets is up for debate.
debate. >> Sure. Sure. Not only is the value
>> Sure. Sure. Not only is the value because look, some of these are cracked
because look, some of these are cracked and some of them aren't. And did they
and some of them aren't. And did they crack in this process or were they
crack in this process or were they cracked before? Did she crack them or
cracked before? Did she crack them or did you crack them? And which ones are
did you crack them? And which ones are worth more than the others? And were
worth more than the others? And were these the same at the be? It doesn't
these the same at the be? It doesn't matter. It's all in. And by the way,
matter. It's all in. And by the way, take take out the marital take out your
take take out the marital take out your property. Now, how long is that going to
property. Now, how long is that going to take you? It's impossible to do that.
take you? It's impossible to do that. Once you're in the community property
Once you're in the community property system, once you've put something into
system, once you've put something into the Wii category, if you get married
the Wii category, if you get married without a prenup, you can
without a prenup, you can unintentionally
unintentionally buy into this into this system, which by
buy into this into this system, which by the way, I make a very comfortable
the way, I make a very comfortable living helping people sort this out.
living helping people sort this out. Whereas
Whereas whereas
whereas all you had to do was agree on the rule
all you had to do was agree on the rule set of yours, mine, ours, and then this
set of yours, mine, ours, and then this is intentional. Now, I understand why
is intentional. Now, I understand why that's scary for some people because you
that's scary for some people because you have to have a conversation about, well,
have to have a conversation about, well, are we putting that in joint names? Or,
are we putting that in joint names? Or, well, you got that bonus. Are you
well, you got that bonus. Are you putting it in my account or your account
putting it in my account or your account or some in your account and some in my
or some in your account and some in my account or some in this? But isn't it
account or some in this? But isn't it better to keep some level of control
better to keep some level of control over this?
over this? >> If I was a financially motivated
>> If I was a financially motivated individual and I was marrying say you
individual and I was marrying say you and you were a billionaire,
and you were a billionaire, >> I mean it's very much in my interest to
>> I mean it's very much in my interest to avoid this prenup.
avoid this prenup. >> Maybe.
>> Maybe. >> Yeah.
>> Yeah. >> Because then, you know, it's all going
>> Because then, you know, it's all going to become we in seven years time. So
to become we in seven years time. So I've just got to be with you for seven
I've just got to be with you for seven years and then I can bounce out of this
years and then I can bounce out of this and I'm going to make half half a
and I'm going to make half half a billion dollars. Have you ever seen
billion dollars. Have you ever seen that?
that? >> Of course. Have you ever seen but here's
>> Of course. Have you ever seen but here's also what I will say to you. Flip that
also what I will say to you. Flip that story for a second.
story for a second. So we're married for 6 and 1/2 years.
So we're married for 6 and 1/2 years. It's going pretty well.
It's going pretty well. We're at the 6 and 1/2 year mark.
We're at the 6 and 1/2 year mark. You're you're a billionaire. You're
You're you're a billionaire. You're probably not stupid, right? Are you
probably not stupid, right? Are you going to take that bet?
going to take that bet? >> Is it seven years is the moment
>> Is it seven years is the moment >> 7 years is the moment
>> 7 years is the moment >> when it all becomes
>> when it all becomes >> community property. Yeah. So do you find
>> community property. Yeah. So do you find some very successful people
some very successful people >> they spike the divorce rate at six years
>> they spike the divorce rate at six years six and a half years because why? It's
six and a half years because why? It's the same reason why I tell people don't
the same reason why I tell people don't put don't put what we call you know
put don't put what we call you know sunset clauses in a prenup because
sunset clauses in a prenup because people people all have the bright idea
people people all have the bright idea that they're going to oh well we'll do a
that they're going to oh well we'll do a prenup but after 10 years it'll go away
prenup but after 10 years it'll go away after 10 years you know it'll
after 10 years you know it'll self-destruct like in Mission
self-destruct like in Mission Impossible. And all that does is makes
Impossible. And all that does is makes people ask really icky questions at the
people ask really icky questions at the nine and a half year mark where they
nine and a half year mark where they have to start going because seven years
have to start going because seven years seven years it's like the honeymoon's
seven years it's like the honeymoon's over. Maybe you got a kid or two and all
over. Maybe you got a kid or two and all of a sudden you go, "Okay, do I want
of a sudden you go, "Okay, do I want fully one half of everything I owned
fully one half of everything I owned prior to the marriage to now be subject
prior to the marriage to now be subject to division? Is it going that good? Do I
to division? Is it going that good? Do I want to take this bet?" Like look, we
want to take this bet?" Like look, we live in reality.
live in reality. What you're doing when you marry someone
What you're doing when you marry someone is you're marrying your destiny to them
is you're marrying your destiny to them and you're making decisions about a
and you're making decisions about a future that you can't see. It hasn't
future that you can't see. It hasn't happened yet. If seven years is the
happened yet. If seven years is the moment when our assets become co-mingled
moment when our assets become co-mingled to the point that community property
to the point that community property where we have to kind of split our
where we have to kind of split our assets in a relationship, have you ever
assets in a relationship, have you ever seen someone get to like seven years in
seen someone get to like seven years in one day and then file for divorce
one day and then file for divorce because they're going to get
because they're going to get >> Yeah, I've had people who wait until the
>> Yeah, I've had people who wait until the exact moment. Like there's other there's
exact moment. Like there's other there's other formulas that are applicable. Like
other formulas that are applicable. Like I I have plenty of people right now that
I I have plenty of people right now that have come to me for a consultation and
have come to me for a consultation and they're like, "Yeah, I'm not going to
they're like, "Yeah, I'm not going to file for another 6 months because we'll
file for another 6 months because we'll hit 20 years in 6 months." And when we
hit 20 years in 6 months." And when we hit that, it kicks up to another level
hit that, it kicks up to another level of alimony in terms of the formulas.
of alimony in terms of the formulas. Like here's the thing. When the
Like here's the thing. When the government makes decisions for you, they
government makes decisions for you, they set numbers. Like there's a highway near
set numbers. Like there's a highway near where we are right now. It's 55 miles an
where we are right now. It's 55 miles an hour is an acceptable legal speed to
hour is an acceptable legal speed to drive on that. 56 and you're committing
drive on that. 56 and you're committing a crime. 76 and you're committing a
a crime. 76 and you're committing a different level of crime. 106 and you're
different level of crime. 106 and you're committing a higher level felony crime.
committing a higher level felony crime. Right? Is 56 and 55 that much different?
Right? Is 56 and 55 that much different? No. We had to pick a number. So, we
No. We had to pick a number. So, we picked that number. So, do you trust the
picked that number. So, do you trust the government to pick the number? That's
government to pick the number? That's the only question to ask when you're
the only question to ask when you're thinking about a prenup is, do I trust
thinking about a prenup is, do I trust the government so much that I'm going to
the government so much that I'm going to let them pick the number? Personally, I
let them pick the number? Personally, I don't. Personally, if I like someone so
don't. Personally, if I like someone so much that I've decided I'm going to
much that I've decided I'm going to choose them out of 8 billion other
choose them out of 8 billion other options, I would think I have enough
options, I would think I have enough faith in that person to come up with a
faith in that person to come up with a rule set between us that we and BY THE
rule set between us that we and BY THE WAY, NOT A COMPLICATED rule set. If it's
WAY, NOT A COMPLICATED rule set. If it's in my name, it's mine. If it's in your
in my name, it's mine. If it's in your name, it's yours. If it's in our name,
name, it's yours. If it's in our name, it's ours. Then you can have all the
it's ours. Then you can have all the conversations you want about why aren't
conversations you want about why aren't you putting things in joint names or why
you putting things in joint names or why are you putting things in joint names
are you putting things in joint names and here's what I need to feel safe
and here's what I need to feel safe because here's the thing. If you're the
because here's the thing. If you're the billionaire or you're the person
billionaire or you're the person marrying the billionaire you both want
marrying the billionaire you both want to feel remember we're going back to
to feel remember we're going back to what is it you want to feel? What is it
what is it you want to feel? What is it you want to feel? That's the key
you want to feel? That's the key question. You what do you want to feel?
question. You what do you want to feel? You both want to feel safe. Isn't that
You both want to feel safe. Isn't that fair? I've represented a lot of victims
fair? I've represented a lot of victims of intimate partner abuse and domestic
of intimate partner abuse and domestic violence and course of control and I can
violence and course of control and I can tell you you can't feel loved if you
tell you you can't feel loved if you don't feel safe. And there's lots of
don't feel safe. And there's lots of ways for a person to feel unsafe
ways for a person to feel unsafe physically, emotionally, financially.
physically, emotionally, financially. There's lots of ways to make someone I
There's lots of ways to make someone I hope you want to make your fiance feel
hope you want to make your fiance feel safe. And I hope she wants to make you
safe. And I hope she wants to make you feel safe. So, one of the ways that you
feel safe. So, one of the ways that you make her feel safe. By the way, you
make her feel safe. By the way, you can't protect her from everything in the
can't protect her from everything in the world. You know that, right? Like
world. You know that, right? Like somebody drops a nuke, there's nothing
somebody drops a nuke, there's nothing you're going to be able to do to help
you're going to be able to do to help her with that. Okay? There's lots of
her with that. Okay? There's lots of things that can happen that you can't
things that can happen that you can't keep her safe from, but you're going to
keep her safe from, but you're going to do your darnest, and that's great. Okay.
do your darnest, and that's great. Okay. And by the way, like she wants you to
And by the way, like she wants you to feel safe. She wants you to feel safe
feel safe. She wants you to feel safe and not taken advantage of and loved for
and not taken advantage of and loved for who you are. Right? I I have every
who you are. Right? I I have every confidence she does not love you just
confidence she does not love you just for money. There's lots of people with
for money. There's lots of people with money in the world. So, she loves the
money in the world. So, she loves the unique combination of things that are
unique combination of things that are you. One factor of which may be that
you. One factor of which may be that you're a very successful man
you're a very successful man professionally. And that makes her feel
professionally. And that makes her feel safe. And that makes her feel secure.
safe. And that makes her feel secure. And it makes her feel like she can
And it makes her feel like she can really have a future with you that's a
really have a future with you that's a bright and lovely one. And she can focus
bright and lovely one. And she can focus her energies on things other than find.
her energies on things other than find. That's great. This is great, man. We're
That's great. This is great, man. We're both happy. We're doing the thing. So,
both happy. We're doing the thing. So, what is wrong with just keeping this
what is wrong with just keeping this conversation an ongoing conversation
conversation an ongoing conversation about what is it we need to feel safe?
about what is it we need to feel safe? Cuz if you are in that dynamic where
Cuz if you are in that dynamic where she's gorgeous and he's rich, if she
she's gorgeous and he's rich, if she says to him, "Hey, if we split up, I'm
says to him, "Hey, if we split up, I'm going to like need some things. Like, I
going to like need some things. Like, I I'm not really focusing on finances and
I'm not really focusing on finances and you have so much more than me. You're
you have so much more than me. You're telling me a guy's not going to say,
telling me a guy's not going to say, "Yeah, it makes sense." And by the way,
"Yeah, it makes sense." And by the way, when's the time to have that
when's the time to have that conversation? WHEN YOU'RE MADLY IN LOVE
conversation? WHEN YOU'RE MADLY IN LOVE WITH EACH other in the beginning of this
WITH EACH other in the beginning of this thing, when you're on your knee in front
thing, when you're on your knee in front of the restaurant, you know, proposing
of the restaurant, you know, proposing to the person. You don't have it when
to the person. You don't have it when you're breaking up. That's the worst
you're breaking up. That's the worst time to have that conversation. Have it
time to have that conversation. Have it when you're first having that abundance
when you're first having that abundance of optimism and connection to each
of optimism and connection to each other. And then and then, by the way,
other. And then and then, by the way, what does he feel unsafe? He feels
what does he feel unsafe? He feels unsafe that he's saying, "Look, I'm
unsafe that he's saying, "Look, I'm willing to contribute financially to
willing to contribute financially to this relationship. Clearly, I've proven
this relationship. Clearly, I've proven that. I bought you a Birkin bag. I
that. I bought you a Birkin bag. I bought you a car. I pay for your bills.
bought you a car. I pay for your bills. I'm signing on to marry you and to give
I'm signing on to marry you and to give you a wonderful, beautiful life." Are
you a wonderful, beautiful life." Are you entitled to 100% or 50% of
you entitled to 100% or 50% of everything I've ever owned? I have so
everything I've ever owned? I have so much more than you right now. Like, that
much more than you right now. Like, that seems wildly. Do you Are you saying that
seems wildly. Do you Are you saying that everything I earn from the date of
everything I earn from the date of marriage on we should split? Like,
marriage on we should split? Like, that's what's great about a prenup. You
that's what's great about a prenup. You can make whatever rules you want to in
can make whatever rules you want to in that situation. So I I believe there is
that situation. So I I believe there is genuine value in having honest
genuine value in having honest conversations about these things. Look,
conversations about these things. Look, I it's just M&M's. It's just money the
I it's just M&M's. It's just money the end of the day. And by the way, this has
end of the day. And by the way, this has no more real value than the pieces of
no more real value than the pieces of paper you're holding in your pocket that
paper you're holding in your pocket that we've attributed value to. If anything,
we've attributed value to. If anything, this tastes good. Chew on money all you
this tastes good. Chew on money all you want. It won't help. I did have this
want. It won't help. I did have this conversation with my partner and we we
conversation with my partner and we we talked about it and she was very um she
talked about it and she was very um she was very supportive of a prenup because
was very supportive of a prenup because she also wants one and she wants to
she also wants one and she wants to protect her assets and the business that
protect her assets and the business that she's built and all those kinds of
she's built and all those kinds of things which was useful but also I
things which was useful but also I acknowledged you know that I'm I earn
acknowledged you know that I'm I earn more money so in the event that we have
more money so in the event that we have a big family in the future we have four
a big family in the future we have four five kids
five kids >> you I think I need to contribute more to
>> you I think I need to contribute more to make sure that she's fine in the event
make sure that she's fine in the event >> I'm not of course but but see this is
>> I'm not of course but but see this is the point you're a reasonable person if
the point you're a reasonable person if your response when she said well you
your response when she said well you know I we may want to have a family and
know I we may want to have a family and you know if we do like you have so much
you know if we do like you have so much more than me and although I'm signing
more than me and although I'm signing off to protect your assets like you know
off to protect your assets like you know the pursuits I I am really concentrating
the pursuits I I am really concentrating my day on are not purely financial
my day on are not purely financial they're more for the good of the world
they're more for the good of the world or for the good of individuals I'm I'm a
or for the good of individuals I'm I'm a helper I'm a person who wants to to to
helper I'm a person who wants to to to to make the world a better place you
to make the world a better place you know I know a little bit about her that
know I know a little bit about her that I know that these are these are her
I know that these are these are her goals her goal is not to be I want to be
goals her goal is not to be I want to be the CEO of everything her goal goals is
the CEO of everything her goal goals is to help the world and to help people.
to help the world and to help people. That's beautiful. That's probably one of
That's beautiful. That's probably one of the reasons why you love her so much.
the reasons why you love her so much. And so, isn't that a conversation the
And so, isn't that a conversation the two of you should have now and say,
two of you should have now and say, "Well, of course." And by the way, if we
"Well, of course." And by the way, if we have kids, I'm going to need different
have kids, I'm going to need different things. What's great about a prenup is
things. What's great about a prenup is you can make one that says, "If we don't
you can make one that says, "If we don't have kids, it's this. If we have kids,
have kids, it's this. If we have kids, it's this." Like, there's protections
it's this." Like, there's protections you can put in that make sense to both
you can put in that make sense to both of you.
of you. >> What about pets? I've heard about this
>> What about pets? I've heard about this petnup.
petnup. >> Petnup? Yeah.
>> Petnup? Yeah. >> What's a pet nup? And do people actually
>> What's a pet nup? And do people actually >> Yeah. Yeah. Pet a PTNUP is I actually
>> Yeah. Yeah. Pet a PTNUP is I actually created the site trusted petnup.com and
created the site trusted petnup.com and uh it's free. It's 100% free. It's uh if
uh it's free. It's 100% free. It's uh if you it's a pay as you wish. So if you
you it's a pay as you wish. So if you want to to pay anything towards it, 100%
want to to pay anything towards it, 100% of it goes to animal shelters basically
of it goes to animal shelters basically to to 501c3 animal shelters. But
to to 501c3 animal shelters. But essentially what we have found is
essentially what we have found is happening more in the legal system right
happening more in the legal system right now is the equivalent of custody cases
now is the equivalent of custody cases but for companion animals. So people
but for companion animals. So people have a dog, people have a cat, people
have a dog, people have a cat, people have a bird, people have any combination
have a bird, people have any combination of animals. We feel deeply emotionally
of animals. We feel deeply emotionally invested in our pets. Um the law for
invested in our pets. Um the law for many years looked at pets as what was
many years looked at pets as what was called cattle. Chatt is property and
called cattle. Chatt is property and property is essentially like if you
property is essentially like if you killed someone's dog, you owed them the
killed someone's dog, you owed them the replacement value of the dog.
replacement value of the dog. >> What do you tend to see from a legal
>> What do you tend to see from a legal perspective here? Is it that at one
perspective here? Is it that at one point they bought a pet together, they
point they bought a pet together, they never really clarified who owns the pet.
never really clarified who owns the pet. They go through a divorce. They're both
They go through a divorce. They're both arguing over the pet.
arguing over the pet. >> That happened a lot. Yeah, that was the
>> That happened a lot. Yeah, that was the most common permutation. Sometimes it
most common permutation. Sometimes it was they got a pet together while they
was they got a pet together while they were dating and one of them was living,
were dating and one of them was living, you know, in their own apartment or
you know, in their own apartment or whatever and the dog or cat was living
whatever and the dog or cat was living with them and then they merged their
with them and then they merged their homes and now they both grow deeply
homes and now they both grow deeply attached to this animal and you know
attached to this animal and you know they've spent 5 years or 10 years
they've spent 5 years or 10 years together with this animal and now they
together with this animal and now they both like a child. They both have this
both like a child. They both have this like a stepchild is very similar like
like a stepchild is very similar like it's not my blood child but it's you
it's not my blood child but it's you know someone who I've spent a long time
know someone who I've spent a long time with and been part of their care and I
with and been part of their care and I mean something to them. What's the
mean something to them. What's the legal? What's what what's the
legal? What's what what's the >> Well, for many many years, pets were
>> Well, for many many years, pets were considered chatt. They were considered
considered chatt. They were considered property. So, you know, I I remember a
property. So, you know, I I remember a case in New York County where the
case in New York County where the parties could not agree on what to do
parties could not agree on what to do with the dog, like who would keep the
with the dog, like who would keep the dog. And the judge said, "Okay, I'm
dog. And the judge said, "Okay, I'm ordering the dog to be sold and the
ordering the dog to be sold and the proceeds divided." And of course, the
proceeds divided." And of course, the people then went outside and figured, it
people then went outside and figured, it was very Solomonike. The people went
was very Solomonike. The people went outside and figured out a visitation
outside and figured out a visitation schedule for the dog. But what we're
schedule for the dog. But what we're just saying is just like anything in a
just saying is just like anything in a prenup, do this in advance. Just do this
prenup, do this in advance. Just do this in advance. you have a pet, have a
in advance. you have a pet, have a petup. Even if you're not getting
petup. Even if you're not getting married, if you're cohabitating or
married, if you're cohabitating or you're dating someone, have a contract
you're dating someone, have a contract that says, "We both care about this
that says, "We both care about this animal. We've adopted this animal or we
animal. We've adopted this animal or we purchased this animal or we brought this
purchased this animal or we brought this animal into our lives. And now, in the
animal into our lives. And now, in the event that our relationship ends, here's
event that our relationship ends, here's what the rules will be. We will jointly
what the rules will be. We will jointly make important medical decisions and be
make important medical decisions and be guided by the veterinarian's, you know,
guided by the veterinarian's, you know, perspective. Um if if either of us ever
perspective. Um if if either of us ever is going to give up the animal for
is going to give up the animal for adoption, the other person will have the
adoption, the other person will have the automatic right to adopt the animal. If
automatic right to adopt the animal. If the time eventually comes where there
the time eventually comes where there has been a recommendation of euthanasia
has been a recommendation of euthanasia by we will both be entitled to be there
by we will both be entitled to be there when we say goodbye to that dog or we'll
when we say goodbye to that dog or we'll both be entitled to jointly agree on
both be entitled to jointly agree on where that animal's ashes will be or
where that animal's ashes will be or where they'll be buried or we'll each be
where they'll be buried or we'll each be entitled to one half of the ashes or
entitled to one half of the ashes or we'll have a visitation schedule for the
we'll have a visitation schedule for the dog in the event that we separate.
dog in the event that we separate. That's what a petnup is. A petup is a
That's what a petnup is. A petup is a contract between two people. Look, just
contract between two people. Look, just like kids,
like kids, pets didn't ask for this. Pets didn't
pets didn't ask for this. Pets didn't ask for you guys to break up. It's not
ask for you guys to break up. It's not their fault. Like, I don't know anybody
their fault. Like, I don't know anybody that ever broke up because of the dog or
that ever broke up because of the dog or the cat. I'm sure there's somebody out
the cat. I'm sure there's somebody out there, but that's not what it's about.
there, but that's not what it's about. So, it is very, very useful to have in
So, it is very, very useful to have in advance a rule set. I like rules in
advance a rule set. I like rules in advance. I like to know the rules of the
advance. I like to know the rules of the game that we're playing because we can
game that we're playing because we can adjust our behavior accordingly. Is um
adjust our behavior accordingly. Is um divorce increasing statistically?
divorce increasing statistically? >> So it's the most recent statistic is the
>> So it's the most recent statistic is the divorce rate is slowly going up. It was
divorce rate is slowly going up. It was low. It had it had gone down. It went
low. It had it had gone down. It went down during the pandemic. Part of that
down during the pandemic. Part of that was a function of access to the court
was a function of access to the court system. When again when you're looking
system. When again when you're looking at the divorce rate, the divorce rate is
at the divorce rate, the divorce rate is calculated based on the filing of what's
calculated based on the filing of what's called certificate of dissolution of
called certificate of dissolution of marriage, which is the final document
marriage, which is the final document that's filed with the state by the court
that's filed with the state by the court system when a divorce has been
system when a divorce has been finalized. So all you're really seeing
finalized. So all you're really seeing there is what marriage is
there is what marriage is catastrophically failed and and there
catastrophically failed and and there was a judgment of divorce center. There
was a judgment of divorce center. There are many people that just go out for
are many people that just go out for milk and never come back or they
milk and never come back or they physically separate and then they never
physically separate and then they never finalize the divorce. They're not
finalize the divorce. They're not factored into that statistic. So, and
factored into that statistic. So, and the people who quietly stay together
the people who quietly stay together miserable or live in different places
miserable or live in different places and just move out and never finalize
and just move out and never finalize their divorce. That that that statistic
their divorce. That that that statistic doesn't include any of those people.
doesn't include any of those people. These are just the people that it
These are just the people that it actually ended in divorce and that
actually ended in divorce and that divorce was registered with the state.
divorce was registered with the state. But the divorce rate went down and then
But the divorce rate went down and then it the divorce filing rate spiked when
it the divorce filing rate spiked when the court systems opened back up post
the court systems opened back up post pandemic and now it's steadily going
pandemic and now it's steadily going back up again. Now what's interesting is
back up again. Now what's interesting is the marriage rate is going down and the
the marriage rate is going down and the average age at which people marry is
average age at which people marry is going up. I was looking at the
going up. I was looking at the generational divide here and it says
generational divide here and it says younger couples so millennials and Gen Z
younger couples so millennials and Gen Z divorce rates have plummeted. They are
divorce rates have plummeted. They are marrying later, cohabiting first and
marrying later, cohabiting first and statistically more selective leading to
statistically more selective leading to more stable marriages. However, there is
more stable marriages. However, there is something called the gray divorce.
something called the gray divorce. divorce rates for people over 50 um they
divorce rates for people over 50 um they refer to as gray divorce has doubled
refer to as gray divorce has doubled since 1990 and tripled for those over
since 1990 and tripled for those over 65.
65. >> Yeah. Gray divorce is a uh something
>> Yeah. Gray divorce is a uh something that a lot of divorce lawyers are
that a lot of divorce lawyers are thinking and talking a lot about right
thinking and talking a lot about right now which is that first of all people
now which is that first of all people are living much longer. People are
are living much longer. People are living in a different way much longer
living in a different way much longer thanks to things like erectile
thanks to things like erectile dysfunction medication. like you know an
dysfunction medication. like you know an 80year-old having you know a active sex
80year-old having you know a active sex life is not something that really
life is not something that really existed
existed so often prior to the pharmaceutical
so often prior to the pharmaceutical advent of erectile dysfunction drugs
advent of erectile dysfunction drugs which really only occurred in the last
which really only occurred in the last 20 years. So there's a big change in in
20 years. So there's a big change in in what a 70year-old or 80year-old's
what a 70year-old or 80year-old's quality of life is and what they look
quality of life is and what they look like and what their health is like. So,
like and what their health is like. So, you know, with with uh hormone
you know, with with uh hormone replacement therapy, with you know, all
replacement therapy, with you know, all the different medications that are out
the different medications that are out there, people are living more uh
there, people are living more uh sexually uh you know, and romantically
sexually uh you know, and romantically charged lives in their elder years than
charged lives in their elder years than they used to, which often leads people
they used to, which often leads people to say, you know what, I've got 10 more
to say, you know what, I've got 10 more years. I'm not going to stay in this
years. I'm not going to stay in this unhappy relationship and I'm going to
unhappy relationship and I'm going to split up. I actually don't think, by the
split up. I actually don't think, by the way, that those two statistics that you
way, that those two statistics that you just talked about are unrelated. I think
just talked about are unrelated. I think millennials they they haven't been
millennials they they haven't been married for that long yet. Like the
married for that long yet. Like the question of catastrophic failure of a
question of catastrophic failure of a marriage like I I've said it before that
marriage like I I've said it before that people get divorced the same way they go
people get divorced the same way they go bankrupt very slowly and then all at
bankrupt very slowly and then all at once.
once. >> What two of the reasons given in the
>> What two of the reasons given in the research I did as well were quite quite
research I did as well were quite quite unobvious on the surface. One of them is
unobvious on the surface. One of them is that women in this generation boomers
that women in this generation boomers and Gen Z are more likely to have their
and Gen Z are more likely to have their own careers and retirement savings than
own careers and retirement savings than previous generations. Meaning they can
previous generations. Meaning they can afford to leave unhappy marriages. And
afford to leave unhappy marriages. And when I've spoken with menopause experts
when I've spoken with menopause experts and so on, they they've told me they see
and so on, they they've told me they see this often that in this season of life,
this often that in this season of life, women will, you know, make a decision to
women will, you know, make a decision to to leave. And the other one is the
to leave. And the other one is the reduced stigma about divorce.
reduced stigma about divorce. >> Yeah.
>> Yeah. >> So divorce is no longer seen as a moral
>> So divorce is no longer seen as a moral failure, making it socially easier to
failure, making it socially easier to split later in life.
split later in life. >> I believe that that's true. I think that
>> I believe that that's true. I think that we've definitely changed the manner in
we've definitely changed the manner in which we relate to divorce. We no longer
which we relate to divorce. We no longer consider it a catastrophic failure
consider it a catastrophic failure socially. I think that we often see it
socially. I think that we often see it as the ending of a chapter and the
as the ending of a chapter and the beginning of a new one. I don't think
beginning of a new one. I don't think that that's bad. I think dstigmatizing
that that's bad. I think dstigmatizing divorce and seeing that, okay, sometimes
divorce and seeing that, okay, sometimes it is better for people when the
it is better for people when the relationship is no longer working for
relationship is no longer working for both of them and they've done the things
both of them and they've done the things they've tried to do to make it work and
they've tried to do to make it work and they've decided that happily ever after
they've decided that happily ever after means happily ever after separately. I
means happily ever after separately. I don't think that's necessarily a bad
don't think that's necessarily a bad thing. Similarly, you could make the
thing. Similarly, you could make the argument that one of the reasons
argument that one of the reasons millennials, and again, only time will
millennials, and again, only time will tell, that millennials are better at uh
tell, that millennials are better at uh staying married is going to be that they
staying married is going to be that they go into it with more realistic
go into it with more realistic expectations. They don't go into it with
expectations. They don't go into it with the expectation that this person's going
the expectation that this person's going to be their everything. They they look
to be their everything. They they look at it and go, "Yeah, as a human being,
at it and go, "Yeah, as a human being, I'm marrying another human being. I
I'm marrying another human being. I haven't quite figured myself out."
haven't quite figured myself out." >> Which of your books was more popular?
>> Which of your books was more popular? How not to [ __ ] up your marriage,
How not to [ __ ] up your marriage, straight talk from a divorce lawyer
straight talk from a divorce lawyer who's seen it all, or how to stay in
who's seen it all, or how to stay in love? So, How to Stay in Love has been
love? So, How to Stay in Love has been out longer. Yeah. So, it's done quite
out longer. Yeah. So, it's done quite well um over the period of time. It's in
well um over the period of time. It's in its fourth printing right now.
its fourth printing right now. >> And what what about this book do you
>> And what what about this book do you think was resonant? Is there a
think was resonant? Is there a particular idea that was number one in
particular idea that was number one in this book?
this book? >> I think a it was the first book written
>> I think a it was the first book written by a divorce lawyer to headon take on
by a divorce lawyer to headon take on the topic of how to not get divorced. It
the topic of how to not get divorced. It was a how not to book basically. So, I
was a how not to book basically. So, I think that that was the the key concept
think that that was the the key concept was uh keeping people connected and and
was uh keeping people connected and and what you could learn. Look, who are you
what you could learn. Look, who are you going to go to if you want to learn how
going to go to if you want to learn how to keep your car in good condition? A
to keep your car in good condition? A new car dealer or a mechanic? Like, a
new car dealer or a mechanic? Like, a new car dealer only sees brand new cars.
new car dealer only sees brand new cars. They don't know anything about, you
They don't know anything about, you know, about how to actually keep one
know, about how to actually keep one together. Mechanics are good at that. We
together. Mechanics are good at that. We tell you where the predictable points of
tell you where the predictable points of failure are. So, I think that was what
failure are. So, I think that was what made the book popular. What's the most
made the book popular. What's the most important thing we didn't talk about
important thing we didn't talk about that we should have talked about as it
that we should have talked about as it pertains to the subject of holding on to
pertains to the subject of holding on to this very precious thing and very
this very precious thing and very elusive thing for many called love? You
elusive thing for many called love? You know, something I've been thinking a lot
know, something I've been thinking a lot about lately is two,
about lately is two, and I say this to you as an engaged man
and I say this to you as an engaged man and as a friend.
and as a friend. I think there's two seemingly
I think there's two seemingly contradictory
contradictory assumptions people make when they get
assumptions people make when they get married that I hope you're not making.
married that I hope you're not making. Okay? I hope this couple neither person
Okay? I hope this couple neither person in this couple is making
in this couple is making one
one is thinking that
is thinking that marriage will change the other person.
marriage will change the other person. So, you know, Steven works so much and
So, you know, Steven works so much and he's so hard charging, but once we get
he's so hard charging, but once we get married, he'll come home more and he'll
married, he'll come home more and he'll be home more and he'll calm down more.
be home more and he'll calm down more. You know, she's uh uh you know, very
You know, she's uh uh you know, very worried about me when I'm I'm making
worried about me when I'm I'm making something up, but she's worried about me
something up, but she's worried about me when I'm out and on the road and she's
when I'm out and on the road and she's worried about temptation bothering me.
worried about temptation bothering me. But once we're married, she'll know we
But once we're married, she'll know we have a really solid commitment. She
have a really solid commitment. She won't have that worry anymore. Okay.
won't have that worry anymore. Okay. Thinking that marriage is going to
Thinking that marriage is going to change someone is a very dangerous
change someone is a very dangerous assumption. And a lot of the people that
assumption. And a lot of the people that come into my office, they entered
come into my office, they entered marriage thinking this is going to
marriage thinking this is going to change things that I want to see
change things that I want to see changed.
changed. The contradictory second thing is
The contradictory second thing is thinking once we get married nothing
thinking once we get married nothing will change.
will change. thinking, "This is so lovely. She's so
thinking, "This is so lovely. She's so wonderful. I love the version of me she
wonderful. I love the version of me she brings out. So, I'm so wonderful when
brings out. So, I'm so wonderful when I'm with her." And her thinking, "He's
I'm with her." And her thinking, "He's so wonderful, and I love who he how he
so wonderful, and I love who he how he makes me." Because, you know, we don't
makes me." Because, you know, we don't just love the person. We love the person
just love the person. We love the person we are when we're with that person. We
we are when we're with that person. We love how that person makes us feel about
love how that person makes us feel about ourselves. That's a lovely thing. It's
ourselves. That's a lovely thing. It's one of the best things about love,
one of the best things about love, right? So making the assumption that
right? So making the assumption that that will never change that nothing
that will never change that nothing about this rel that marrying will
about this rel that marrying will somehow build a wall around this
somehow build a wall around this beautiful wonderful warm thing that we
beautiful wonderful warm thing that we found together and it'll protect it from
found together and it'll protect it from all the other things in the world and
all the other things in the world and nothing will change and it'll just stay
nothing will change and it'll just stay wonderful is another very dangerous
wonderful is another very dangerous assumption. So even though it seems like
assumption. So even though it seems like a contradiction,
a contradiction, I hope that things change and I hope
I hope that things change and I hope some things don't change. And the only
some things don't change. And the only way that I can think of to let those two
way that I can think of to let those two contradictory elements peacefully
contradictory elements peacefully coexist in a manner that doesn't lead
coexist in a manner that doesn't lead directly to the desk in front of me is
directly to the desk in front of me is to just keep talking about it. And when
to just keep talking about it. And when things change, just talk about it. Just
things change, just talk about it. Just point it out. Not with judgment, not
point it out. Not with judgment, not with anger, not with the belief that
with anger, not with the belief that because something changed it's bad. And
because something changed it's bad. And not with the change that change is
not with the change that change is automatically good. Just saying, "Hey,
automatically good. Just saying, "Hey, remember these two people?
remember these two people? That guy's a little different now. Is
That guy's a little different now. Is that okay? Why did that happen? Is it a
that okay? Why did that happen? Is it a good thing? Is it a bad thing? Do you
good thing? Is it a bad thing? Do you miss him? Is there something that we
miss him? Is there something that we could do that's different or better?"
could do that's different or better?" Like these two people found value in
Like these two people found value in each other. They they love the other
each other. They they love the other person and they love who they are when
person and they love who they are when they're with the person. And again, I'll
they're with the person. And again, I'll I'll say it again. Your marriage will
I'll say it again. Your marriage will end. I promise. I hope it ends in death.
end. I promise. I hope it ends in death. And I hope when it ends that you will
And I hope when it ends that you will look at her and you will say, "She
look at her and you will say, "She helped me become the most authentic
helped me become the most authentic version of myself and she's still my
version of myself and she's still my favorite person."
favorite person." That's the greatest gift that you could
That's the greatest gift that you could give to her and that you can give to
give to her and that you can give to each other and that I think the two of
each other and that I think the two of you together could give to the world
Why do you point to authenticity as being so important in this context?
being so important in this context? Because you use that word, she helped me
Because you use that word, she helped me become the most authentic version of
become the most authentic version of myself. Why does that matter?
myself. Why does that matter? >> Because it's not about becoming the
>> Because it's not about becoming the version of you that she envisions for
version of you that she envisions for you. or her becoming who you want her to
you. or her becoming who you want her to become. I think that sometimes love
become. I think that sometimes love the person doesn't become what we wanted
the person doesn't become what we wanted them to be. And I think sometimes what
them to be. And I think sometimes what we wanted them to be might not be the
we wanted them to be might not be the most authentic version of who they are.
most authentic version of who they are. You know, Cahil Gabbron in the prophet
You know, Cahil Gabbron in the prophet when he's talking about children, he
when he's talking about children, he says that children are living arrows
says that children are living arrows and and and that you you fire the arrow
and and and that you you fire the arrow and yes, your aim has something to do
and yes, your aim has something to do with it, but the wind has something to
with it, but the wind has something to do with it and so many other things have
do with it and so many other things have something to do with it. And so, you
something to do with it. And so, you know, God loves the archer with the
know, God loves the archer with the steady hand and the arrow that's
steady hand and the arrow that's straight. And I feel like if you were to
straight. And I feel like if you were to say
say this person became who I wanted them to
this person became who I wanted them to become like because again I think our
become like because again I think our duty in the best symbiosis
duty in the best symbiosis you
you care a lot about her even more so than
care a lot about her even more so than you do about yourself. And she cares
you do about yourself. And she cares about you even more so than she does
about you even more so than she does about herself. but not to have you
about herself. but not to have you become the man she wants you to be and
become the man she wants you to be and not for her to become the woman you want
not for her to become the woman you want her to be. You want to be of service to
her to be. You want to be of service to her and she wants to be of service to
her and she wants to be of service to you. I want to help you become the most
you. I want to help you become the most authentic version of you. I can see your
authentic version of you. I can see your blind spots. You can't. That's why
blind spots. You can't. That's why they're blind spots. So, I'm going to
they're blind spots. So, I'm going to help you become the most authentic
help you become the most authentic version of yourself. That's the promise.
version of yourself. That's the promise. That should be the promise in marriage
That should be the promise in marriage is I want to help you become I'm going
is I want to help you become I'm going to do what I can to be of service to
to do what I can to be of service to helping you become the most authentic
helping you become the most authentic version of yourself. And when you become
version of yourself. And when you become it, you'll still be my favorite person
it, you'll still be my favorite person because at the core of you is this thing
because at the core of you is this thing that I love.
>> I hope I do a good job. >> I hope you do, too.
>> I hope you do, too. >> Scary, isn't it? Cuz you think of all
>> Scary, isn't it? Cuz you think of all the ways you can [ __ ] it up. It's like,
the ways you can [ __ ] it up. It's like, do you know what I mean?
do you know what I mean? >> But you know what? There's so many ways.
>> But you know what? There's so many ways. >> That's why it's brave.
>> That's why it's brave. >> Like, if you're not scared, it's not
>> Like, if you're not scared, it's not brave.
brave. >> It's brave because you're scared and you
>> It's brave because you're scared and you do it anyway.
do it anyway. >> And it's worth doing it because if the
>> And it's worth doing it because if the prize at the end of it is figuring out
prize at the end of it is figuring out who you are and helping someone figure
who you are and helping someone figure out who they are and having a partner in
out who they are and having a partner in all of this, like what's better than
all of this, like what's better than that, man? What what riches could you
that, man? What what riches could you hold that are greater than that? Like,
hold that are greater than that? Like, that's the greatest gift you could seek
that's the greatest gift you could seek in life. And and by the way, it also has
in life. And and by the way, it also has the power, if it's done right, to
the power, if it's done right, to transform the world because it really is
transform the world because it really is family, community,
family, community, culture, world, you know, and so yeah,
culture, world, you know, and so yeah, it's it's the fact that you say it's
it's it's the fact that you say it's scary is great because it means you
scary is great because it means you realize this is a serious thing and
realize this is a serious thing and something that you realize is serious,
something that you realize is serious, you're going to make a concerted effort
you're going to make a concerted effort to be good at.
to be good at. Amen. We have a closing tradition. As
Amen. We have a closing tradition. As you know, the question left for you is,
you know, the question left for you is, what is the most significant dream you
what is the most significant dream you have had in the past year and how did it
have had in the past year and how did it change your behavior?
Go on. I know. I want to get through this without crying. I had a uh I had a
this without crying. I had a uh I had a dream about my mom.
My mom died 10 years ago after a long battle with cancer.
battle with cancer. There was a lot between us that needed
There was a lot between us that needed to be said and wasn't said.
to be said and wasn't said. We had some peace and some closure, but
We had some peace and some closure, but there's a lot I didn't hadn't figured
there's a lot I didn't hadn't figured out about myself
out about myself by the time she passed. And there's a
by the time she passed. And there's a part of me that wishes she was here so
part of me that wishes she was here so that I could have apologized for some
that I could have apologized for some things I got wrong and I could have
things I got wrong and I could have understood her better.
understood her better. And I had a dream
And I had a dream that she was just there
that she was just there just sitting with me.
And my mom was like me. She never shut up. She would just constantly talk and
up. She would just constantly talk and talk over you. And
talk over you. And I got that from her. Her very energetic.
I got that from her. Her very energetic. She also cried constantly and for for
She also cried constantly and for for joy, tears of joy. She would listen to
joy, tears of joy. She would listen to music and just start crying because it
music and just start crying because it was so beautiful. I realized I got that
was so beautiful. I realized I got that from her. Most of the really warm things
from her. Most of the really warm things in me came from her.
in me came from her. And in this dream, she just sat there
And in this dream, she just sat there silently.
silently. And I kept talking to her. I don't
And I kept talking to her. I don't remember what I was saying, but I just
remember what I was saying, but I just kept talking to her.
kept talking to her. And she just sat there quietly and just
And she just sat there quietly and just was patting my leg.
And I I remember I woke up and I felt
and I felt I felt very like calm. I felt very like
I felt very like calm. I felt very like I'd spent time with her.
I'd spent time with her. And I thought to myself, I think that
And I thought to myself, I think that that was something. I don't know if it
that was something. I don't know if it was her visiting me. I don't know if it
was her visiting me. I don't know if it was God talking to me. I don't know if
was God talking to me. I don't know if it was just my subconscious telling me
it was just my subconscious telling me something I needed to see.
something I needed to see. But I felt like it was saying to me
But I felt like it was saying to me that,
that, you know, that sometimes the words got
you know, that sometimes the words got in the way between the two of us and
in the way between the two of us and that maybe what really mattered the most
that maybe what really mattered the most was just that we were next to each
was just that we were next to each other.
other. And I tried to
And I tried to since I had that dream
since I had that dream um do that more with the people I love.
um do that more with the people I love. It's it's hard for me to stop talking.
It's it's hard for me to stop talking. And I'm learning
And I'm learning with my sons and with the people that I
with my sons and with the people that I love that sometimes just being next to
love that sometimes just being next to them is nice. that I don't need to uh
them is nice. that I don't need to uh I'm really good at talking so I just
I'm really good at talking so I just keep doing it and that maybe sometimes
keep doing it and that maybe sometimes it's nice to just stop and just be with
it's nice to just stop and just be with someone. And so I felt like that that
someone. And so I felt like that that was a very powerful dream. It was a very
was a very powerful dream. It was a very simple dream, but it was one that it it
simple dream, but it was one that it it changed the way I'm trying to relate to
changed the way I'm trying to relate to people.
people. So, you got me to cry again, man.
So, you got me to cry again, man. Killing me.
Killing me. >> At the end of the day, it all comes back
>> At the end of the day, it all comes back to love, doesn't it?
to love, doesn't it? >> Yeah, it does. Isn't it funny?
>> Yeah, it does. Isn't it funny? >> All roads.
>> All roads. >> Isn't it funny? Like, we've added all
>> Isn't it funny? Like, we've added all these layers of complexity to it. That's
these layers of complexity to it. That's all it comes down to.
all it comes down to. >> Isn't it crazy?
>> Isn't it crazy? >> Yeah, it really is.
>> Yeah, it really is. >> Someone asked me that on stage that like
>> Someone asked me that on stage that like last week I was speaking in the Middle
last week I was speaking in the Middle East somewhere and they asked me about
East somewhere and they asked me about like what does everybody want? That was
like what does everybody want? That was literally the question and my answer was
literally the question and my answer was love. And we all we're like confused
love. And we all we're like confused about the path to it. So, some of us
about the path to it. So, some of us think the path to it is like if I get
think the path to it is like if I get the number one podcast, maybe that would
the number one podcast, maybe that would mean or
mean or >> maybe that would mean I'm worthy of
>> maybe that would mean I'm worthy of love.
love. >> Yeah. Like
>> Yeah. Like >> like we we we've come to we've come to
>> like we we we've come to we've come to associate accomplishment with being
associate accomplishment with being worthy of love.
worthy of love. >> And that's really all that it is. Like
>> And that's really all that it is. Like it's really all that it is. Like what
it's really all that it is. Like what otherwise what's the purpose of it? Like
otherwise what's the purpose of it? Like how many super cars can one person have
how many super cars can one person have and how much joy can they really give
and how much joy can they really give you? You can only drive them one at a
you? You can only drive them one at a time, you know? Like it really is about
time, you know? Like it really is about like no, I feel worthy. I feel worthy of
like no, I feel worthy. I feel worthy of love. I feel proud of who I am, which is
love. I feel proud of who I am, which is I'm proud of who I am, which means I'm
I'm proud of who I am, which means I'm worthy of love. It really all comes back
worthy of love. It really all comes back to love. It really all comes back to
to love. It really all comes back to love. The the the two things that late
love. The the the two things that late middle age is helping me see
middle age is helping me see is that the hardest thing to become is
is that the hardest thing to become is yourself,
yourself, your authentic self. And that really all
your authentic self. And that really all any of us want is to be loved, like and
any of us want is to be loved, like and to be worthy of love. And that
to be worthy of love. And that everything you have will add up to a
everything you have will add up to a great pile of nothing
great pile of nothing other than the people who you love and
other than the people who you love and the people who loved you and the
the people who loved you and the experiences you had with those people.
experiences you had with those people. That's it. That's all that matters.
That's it. That's all that matters. Everything else is noise.
>> James, thank you. >> Thank you. Always good to see you.
>> Thank you. Always good to see you. >> Good to see you, too. YouTube have this
>> Good to see you, too. YouTube have this new crazy algorithm where they know
new crazy algorithm where they know exactly what video you would like to
exactly what video you would like to watch next based on AI and all of your
watch next based on AI and all of your viewing behavior. And the algorithm says
viewing behavior. And the algorithm says that this video is the perfect video for
that this video is the perfect video for you. It's different for everybody
you. It's different for everybody looking right now. Check this video out
looking right now. Check this video out and I bet you you might love
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