me a lot of turmoil over the years, but I like it for a couple of reasons.
I like it for a couple of reasons. Firstly, it just allows me to refine
Firstly, it just allows me to refine each time. But more importantly, it
each time. But more importantly, it allows me to be kind of terrible. Like a
allows me to be kind of terrible. Like a lot of those rewrites I will do are not
lot of those rewrites I will do are not good, but funny enough, the the freedom
good, but funny enough, the the freedom to do it wrong allows me to like
to do it wrong allows me to like actually be a bit different, try my own
actually be a bit different, try my own way, and do it right. when I show it to
way, and do it right. when I show it to my brother, he edits all my stuff. I'll
my brother, he edits all my stuff. I'll show this stuff to my brother and um um
show this stuff to my brother and um um originally I'd give him one paragraph to
originally I'd give him one paragraph to like look at. He'll just look at this
like look at. He'll just look at this one paragraph and his feedback would be
one paragraph and his feedback would be like I like it or I don't like it. It
like I like it or I don't like it. It was hard to get again I think more than
was hard to get again I think more than that. But when I show him I can show him
that. But when I show him I can show him three things, show him three paragraphs
three things, show him three paragraphs now and he can say that one's the best.
now and he can say that one's the best. That sentence is the best. Use that
That sentence is the best. Use that sentence but put it in that one. I get
sentence but put it in that one. I get so much better feedback when I can show
so much better feedback when I can show people versions of stuff. That's right.
people versions of stuff. That's right. And simply,
And simply, one of the things I've noticed in our
one of the things I've noticed in our conversation so far is you're very good
conversation so far is you're very good at dividing things into one, two, three,
at dividing things into one, two, three, four. Like really good at structuring.
four. Like really good at structuring. Is that something that you're pretty
Is that something that you're pretty intentional about? We've talked about
intentional about? We've talked about this. You love you love structure.
this. You love you love structure. I love structure.
I love structure. I love structure. How do I Yeah. I
I love structure. How do I Yeah. I I How do I I structure things, right?
I How do I I structure things, right? How I do that would be structuring is
How I do that would be structuring is just dividing lines and parallelism. So,
just dividing lines and parallelism. So, we talked about copyrighting at the
we talked about copyrighting at the start. How can I divide copyrighting
start. How can I divide copyrighting into something which was a bit more
into something which was a bit more easier to understand? Copyrighting is
easier to understand? Copyrighting is big. It's kind of scary. All right. Who
big. It's kind of scary. All right. Who are you talking to? What are you saying
are you talking to? What are you saying here? And how are you saying it? Those
here? And how are you saying it? Those those are the three buckets. I remember
those are the three buckets. I remember I I did a an like a little essay for you
I I did a an like a little essay for you a couple of months ago.
a couple of months ago. Yes.
Yes. It was um seven steps to 10,000 readers
It was um seven steps to 10,000 readers or something like that. So I was like,
or something like that. So I was like, how can I break this essay down into
how can I break this essay down into structure? How can I get the structure?
structure? How can I get the structure? And I wrote the line that the first step
And I wrote the line that the first step in getting 10,000 people to read your
in getting 10,000 people to read your work is to get 100 people to read your
work is to get 100 people to read your work. And I thought that's the
work. And I thought that's the structure. Part one, things that don't
structure. Part one, things that don't scale, 100 readers. Part two, momentum,
scale, 100 readers. Part two, momentum, next 9,900. That's it. Part one, part
next 9,900. That's it. Part one, part two, dividing lines and parallelism.
two, dividing lines and parallelism. There's a paper, I think it was
There's a paper, I think it was published in 1971. It's called That's
published in 1971. It's called That's interesting. And the whole paper is just
interesting. And the whole paper is just a formula for different ways to frame an
a formula for different ways to frame an idea to make it interesting. And the
idea to make it interesting. And the structure that stuck with me was take
structure that stuck with me was take multiple things, take two things that
multiple things, take two things that people think are different, actually
people think are different, actually show Heather one. Take one thing and
show Heather one. Take one thing and actually show Heather two. And a lot of
actually show Heather two. And a lot of what you're doing with structure, what
what you're doing with structure, what you just did there is, okay, you want to
you just did there is, okay, you want to get some readers. Well, actually, you
get some readers. Well, actually, you think that's one thing. No, it's
think that's one thing. No, it's actually two things. First, you need to
actually two things. First, you need to get your first 100 readers. Then you got
get your first 100 readers. Then you got to get the rest of your readers. Now you
to get the rest of your readers. Now you have structure. It's like a book without
have structure. It's like a book without chapters. Imagine that. It's long. It's
chapters. Imagine that. It's long. It's heavy. Like chapters are the structure
heavy. Like chapters are the structure of the book. Same with a course. You
of the book. Same with a course. You take 17 videos. It's like how do these
take 17 videos. It's like how do these how do these link together? Give me
how do these link together? Give me something cohesive. Give me something I
something cohesive. Give me something I can hold on to. That's structure.
can hold on to. That's structure. Another hairy rule. And this is
Another hairy rule. And this is something that I value too. Many years
something that I value too. Many years ago, I had lunch with a mentor,
ago, I had lunch with a mentor, multi-billionaire, and he basically
multi-billionaire, and he basically looked at me and he said, "David,
looked at me and he said, "David, there's two things that if you do, you
there's two things that if you do, you will be insanely successful." He said,
will be insanely successful." He said, "The first thing is learn how to have a
"The first thing is learn how to have a high quality bar. And the second thing
high quality bar. And the second thing is never let the high quality bar fall."
is never let the high quality bar fall." And he said, "That sounds so simple."
And he said, "That sounds so simple." And we're sitting at lunch right now.
And we're sitting at lunch right now. You're like, "Yeah, yeah, yeah, that's
You're like, "Yeah, yeah, yeah, that's going to be hard." He's like, "No, it's
going to be hard." He's like, "No, it's going to be hard. There's going to be
going to be hard. There's going to be people who are angry. There's going to
people who are angry. There's going to be people who are anxious. There's going
be people who are anxious. There's going to be people who are pissed off. There
to be people who are pissed off. There will be people who stop working with you
will be people who stop working with you because of this. But if you have a high
because of this. But if you have a high quality bar and you maintain it, great
quality bar and you maintain it, great things will happen for you. And I see a
things will happen for you. And I see a lot of the same thing that happens in
lot of the same thing that happens in your work with with standards. Like you
your work with with standards. Like you have these supremely high standards in
have these supremely high standards in everything that you do. Where did that
everything that you do. Where did that come from?
come from? I love what the mentor said. I think
I love what the mentor said. I think your standards are your work.
your standards are your work. I think that's a really simple line, but
I think that's a really simple line, but a really true one. Like your work is
a really true one. Like your work is nothing but your standards. Nine out of
nothing but your standards. Nine out of 10 plus it goes out. If not, you won't
10 plus it goes out. If not, you won't see it.
see it. Tell me about something you said a few
Tell me about something you said a few minutes ago about knowing what good
minutes ago about knowing what good looks like. What is that feeling like
looks like. What is that feeling like when you're in the presence of something
when you're in the presence of something of quality that you've created? How do
of quality that you've created? How do you know? I think it's when you you go
you know? I think it's when you you go for a walk around the garden. You go you
for a walk around the garden. You go you take a little walk around the garden.
take a little walk around the garden. come back and you're like, I can't take
come back and you're like, I can't take anything away from that. Like, that's as
anything away from that. Like, that's as clean as it's ever going to get. That
clean as it's ever going to get. That works. And you just sort of smile. Like,
works. And you just sort of smile. Like, I got it. Um, yeah, it's mainly when
I got it. Um, yeah, it's mainly when when it just I I read it, it one line
when it just I I read it, it one line flows to the next. I can't remove
flows to the next. I can't remove anything. It's good. Um, like worn by
anything. It's good. Um, like worn by supermodels in London, dad's in Ohio.
supermodels in London, dad's in Ohio. You can't add a word to that ad and make
You can't add a word to that ad and make it any better. You can't take away a
it any better. You can't take away a word and make it any better. It just is.
word and make it any better. It just is. Tell me more about the conflict. How
Tell me more about the conflict. How when you're writing, how do you create
when you're writing, how do you create conflict? What are the things to avoid?
conflict? What are the things to avoid? What are the things to go for?
What are the things to go for? I'm looking I'm I'm basically trying to
I'm looking I'm I'm basically trying to hinge something around the word but in
hinge something around the word but in in a story without actually writing the
in a story without actually writing the word butt. So, you don't want to keep
word butt. So, you don't want to keep going but this happened but this
going but this happened but this happened. It wants to be like, you know,
happened. It wants to be like, you know, natural. So, I don't know. Let me go off
natural. So, I don't know. Let me go off the top of my head. I I'll tell you how
the top of my head. I I'll tell you how I got here today with some butts in it.
I got here today with some butts in it. How I got here today, I you know, I'm
How I got here today, I you know, I'm telling it boringly. I got on the train.
telling it boringly. I got on the train. I got the train here and I had a coffee
I got the train here and I had a coffee and we started talking. But a bit
and we started talking. But a bit conflict, I'd say I woke up at 8:52 a.m.
conflict, I'd say I woke up at 8:52 a.m. and um I started looking for clothes to
and um I started looking for clothes to wear today and my mom runs up the stairs
wear today and my mom runs up the stairs and she tells me, "Harry, you can you
and she tells me, "Harry, you can you cannot do this interview in little blue
cannot do this interview in little blue in those blue shorts you had at the
in those blue shorts you had at the start." And I'd say, "Mom, just I'm
start." And I'd say, "Mom, just I'm stressed. All right, I'm doing this
stressed. All right, I'm doing this thing. I want to, you know, practice."
thing. I want to, you know, practice." And she's like, "I'm not letting you get
And she's like, "I'm not letting you get out of the house unless you change
out of the house unless you change shorts." I got these on now. I I I get
shorts." I got these on now. I I I get here to do the interview and you say
here to do the interview and you say Harry can you can you why you got longer
Harry can you can you why you got longer trousers on like give me some tr like I
trousers on like give me some tr like I haven't brought trousers with me. You
haven't brought trousers with me. You just you just you just put in you know
just you just you just put in you know that's how you create conflict. You just
that's how you create conflict. You just go but butt. What went wrong? That's a
go but butt. What went wrong? That's a butt. That's conflict.
butt. That's conflict. I got to ask how does AI show up in all
I got to ask how does AI show up in all of this for you? Is AI part of your
of this for you? Is AI part of your writing? And the thing that we've spoken
writing? And the thing that we've spoken about is that
about is that AI or not, what matters is having really
AI or not, what matters is having really good taste.
good taste. Yeah. I I John Long, great quote.
Yeah. I I John Long, great quote. Switching from um pens to typewriters
Switching from um pens to typewriters didn't make the work better. Switching
didn't make the work better. Switching from typewriters to laptops didn't make
from typewriters to laptops didn't make the work better. Switching from film to
the work better. Switching from film to digital didn't make the work better. AI
digital didn't make the work better. AI is a tool. It's a tool. It's only as
is a tool. It's a tool. It's only as good as your taste. I saw somebody on
good as your taste. I saw somebody on Twitter the other day. Photoshop's got
Twitter the other day. Photoshop's got this new thing like generative fill.
this new thing like generative fill. Basically, you take a picture and you
Basically, you take a picture and you can like zoom out and it will generate
can like zoom out and it will generate the background. And talking about album
the background. And talking about album covers, Beatles Abbey Road, the four
covers, Beatles Abbey Road, the four guys walking along the zebra crossing.
guys walking along the zebra crossing. Someone zooms out of this picture,
Someone zooms out of this picture, generative fills it, and it's got like
generative fills it, and it's got like a, you know, a big balloon in the air
a, you know, a big balloon in the air now and there's loads more trees and
now and there's loads more trees and it's completely not cropped. And they
it's completely not cropped. And they write, um, AI revolutionizing the
write, um, AI revolutionizing the photography process. And I'm thinking,
photography process. And I'm thinking, God, like, God help you. Ogulvie, uh,
God, like, God help you. Ogulvie, uh, ad, uh, at 60 mph,
ad, uh, at 60 mph, the loudest noise coming from the
the loudest noise coming from the Rolls-Royce is the sound of an electric
Rolls-Royce is the sound of an electric clock. He pulls that out of the motor
clock. He pulls that out of the motor magazine.
magazine. Increased Rolls-Royce sales by 50%. Why
Increased Rolls-Royce sales by 50%. Why does he pull it out the motor magazine?
does he pull it out the motor magazine? He's got taste. He puts it as the
He's got taste. He puts it as the headline. That's conviction. Another
headline. That's conviction. Another thing AI doesn't have. It can't it
thing AI doesn't have. It can't it doesn't believe something. And and also
doesn't believe something. And and also experience. Why can why can Oglev write
experience. Why can why can Oglev write that? It's because he sat in the car or
that? It's because he sat in the car or the motor magazine individual sat in the
the motor magazine individual sat in the car. They drove it at 60 mph and the
car. They drove it at 60 mph and the loudest noise you could hear was the
loudest noise you could hear was the electric clock. Taste, conviction,
electric clock. Taste, conviction, experience. Picowski worked as a postman
experience. Picowski worked as a postman for 20 years and he wrote post office.
for 20 years and he wrote post office. Jack Carowak lived on the road for um
Jack Carowak lived on the road for um seven years and he wrote on the road in
seven years and he wrote on the road in three weeks. Michael Lewis spent forever
three weeks. Michael Lewis spent forever working on Wall Street. Waited and
working on Wall Street. Waited and waited and then was able to write The
waited and then was able to write The Big Short.
Big Short. I don't think it's not a coincidence, is
I don't think it's not a coincidence, is it? Sylvia Sylvia Blle, I've mentioned
it? Sylvia Sylvia Blle, I've mentioned her a few times today. Um, she worked as
her a few times today. Um, she worked as an intern at a New York fashion
an intern at a New York fashion magazine. Her character Esther
magazine. Her character Esther Greenwood, guess what? Disillusioned
Greenwood, guess what? Disillusioned intern at a New York fashion magazine.
intern at a New York fashion magazine. If you asked me to write about New York
If you asked me to write about New York City, um, I'd never been. So I would
City, um, I'd never been. So I would just say uh yellow taxis city that never
just say uh yellow taxis city that never sleeps. I'm gumming together long strips
sleeps. I'm gumming together long strips of words already set in order by
of words already set in order by somebody else. And unfortunately that's
somebody else. And unfortunately that's quite literally what what what AI does.
quite literally what what what AI does. It's predictive.
It's predictive. It's predictive. You're making a few
It's predictive. You're making a few points with experience. The first point
points with experience. The first point that you're making is the David Oglevie
that you're making is the David Oglevie which is go out and do things and do
which is go out and do things and do things and be aware. And it is out of
things and be aware. And it is out of that awareness that you're going to
that awareness that you're going to notice things and the things that you
notice things and the things that you notice those will lead to good writing.
notice those will lead to good writing. So you're talking about the car that's
So you're talking about the car that's going fast. The loudest thing you can
going fast. The loudest thing you can hear is the ticking clock. That is the
hear is the ticking clock. That is the first kind of experience that you're
first kind of experience that you're talking about. The second kind is the
talking about. The second kind is the Bukowski kind where you work in
Bukowski kind where you work in something for a long time and you're
something for a long time and you're building experience that is a kind of
building experience that is a kind of expertise year after year after year
expertise year after year after year after year. And those are very different
after year. And those are very different kinds of experience. What's writing? You
kinds of experience. What's writing? You see something, you believe something,
see something, you believe something, you write about it. Um any any kind of
you write about it. Um any any kind of robot can't see anything and it doesn't
robot can't see anything and it doesn't believe anything. You ask AI what what
believe anything. You ask AI what what do you believe? It says I am a robot. I
do you believe? It says I am a robot. I don't believe I don't believe anything.
don't believe I don't believe anything. So how are you going to tell me
So how are you going to tell me something surprising? A good writer
something surprising? A good writer arranges words and ideas in a way that
arranges words and ideas in a way that haven't been laid out before. Any kind
haven't been laid out before. Any kind of robot lays them out in a fashion
of robot lays them out in a fashion which is quite literally from all the
which is quite literally from all the stuff which has been laid out before.
stuff which has been laid out before. And I'm not saying it's not it's not
And I'm not saying it's not it's not useful. Like it's a it's a great
useful. Like it's a it's a great research tool and we don't know what's
research tool and we don't know what's going to happen. But I think if you
going to happen. But I think if you think it will take your job or you think
think it will take your job or you think it's going to do a better job than you,
it's going to do a better job than you, it probably will. But I don't think it
it probably will. But I don't think it will. I don't think it can do what I do.
will. I don't think it can do what I do. It seems like a lot of what you're
It seems like a lot of what you're trying to do is collect excellence.
trying to do is collect excellence. Surround yourself with all different
Surround yourself with all different kinds of excellence and then use those
kinds of excellence and then use those inspirations to basically set the
inspirations to basically set the standard for the work that you produce.
standard for the work that you produce. Um, it's like it's in the everyday like
Um, it's like it's in the everyday like I don't know. You get up, you read, you
I don't know. You get up, you read, you you get up, you're on TikTok, you get
you get up, you're on TikTok, you get that whole video after video. It slows
that whole video after video. It slows you down. You wake up, you sit in a bit
you down. You wake up, you sit in a bit of silence. You don't talk to people,
of silence. You don't talk to people, you collect your thoughts. Silence and
you collect your thoughts. Silence and action. That's what I run on. Oh, yeah.
action. That's what I run on. Oh, yeah. You do these writing retreats with
You do these writing retreats with Cultural Tutor and you don't even talk
Cultural Tutor and you don't even talk till dinner, right?
till dinner, right? I always think it's so funny when people
I always think it's so funny when people call him Cultural Tutor. Wait, I
call him Cultural Tutor. Wait, I That's his name. He's the cultural
That's his name. He's the cultural tutor. His name is Nashi. His name is
tutor. His name is Nashi. His name is the cultural tutor on his British birth
the cultural tutor on his British birth certificate. That's Plato is his face as
certificate. That's Plato is his face as well.
well. I just call him CT even cultural tutor.
I just call him CT even cultural tutor. Yeah. Know we go we go we asked for was
Yeah. Know we go we go we asked for was in Connistan. He was trying to finish
in Connistan. He was trying to finish his book and uh you wake up thing is we
his book and uh you wake up thing is we used to do these and we'd talk um on
used to do these and we'd talk um on these and I'd be like look man do you
these and I'd be like look man do you want a coffee? And she'll be like you
want a coffee? And she'll be like you know he's put on maybe maybe not. You
know he's put on maybe maybe not. You know I'll come with you. He's talking
know I'll come with you. He's talking about his girlfriend. He's talking about
about his girlfriend. He's talking about his favorite. I'm like like I've lost my
his favorite. I'm like like I've lost my flow here. When we sit, we don't talk
flow here. When we sit, we don't talk till 5 or 6:00 when we have dinner and
till 5 or 6:00 when we have dinner and there's an intensity to it. There's a
there's an intensity to it. There's a real like, God, I'm doing something
real like, God, I'm doing something here. If I'm if I wake up and I'm on
here. If I'm if I wake up and I'm on TikTok, which I do a lot first thing in
TikTok, which I do a lot first thing in the morning or Instagram, whatever it
the morning or Instagram, whatever it is, my day's drudge. It's slow. I'm not
is, my day's drudge. It's slow. I'm not up for it. If I wake up, I'm like, "God,
up for it. If I wake up, I'm like, "God, I'm not talking to my own today. I'm
I'm not talking to my own today. I'm going to write something brilliant
going to write something brilliant today. Take a walk around the park in
today. Take a walk around the park in silence. No earphones on." I give myself
silence. No earphones on." I give myself a better shot. Um, I think I'm I don't
a better shot. Um, I think I'm I don't know. I said what I said, David. I've
know. I said what I said, David. I've said what I said. It was a pleasure.
said what I said. It was a pleasure. You said what you just said.
You said what you just said. I've said what I said. I'm a huge fan of
I've said what I said. I'm a huge fan of the show and genuinely I should say it's
the show and genuinely I should say it's really um genuinely a privilege to come
really um genuinely a privilege to come on. I've listen to pretty much every
on. I've listen to pretty much every episode.
episode. Thanks, man.
Thanks, man. I'm a big fan. Um there you go. Those
I'm a big fan. Um there you go. Those one.
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