This interview reflects on the significant societal and cultural shifts in the UK since 2006, particularly concerning the increasing influence of Islam in politics, the erosion of free speech, and the perceived decline of traditional British values and culture, while also exploring the resurgence of religious and cultural identity as a response.
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Hello and welcome to the New Culture
Forum's interview show. I'm Emma
Trimple. Now, before Peter died, he
asked me if I would take over his
interview show and I am very honored to
be sitting in his seat right now. Our
first guest couldn't be more
appropriate. He's someone that Peter
admired very much. He's an old friend of
mine who in fact inspired me to get
involved in the fight in the first
place. I know he needs no further
introduction. Douglas, thank you so much
for joining us. So you uh told me before
um before this interview that you did
one of the first ever new culture forum
events and also I think the first ever
Smith lecture back in 2006
>> that was a very different world uh back
then. So what sort of journey have we
have we come on from 2006 until now as a country?
country?
>> Yes. Well first of all it's a great
pleasure to be with you. Um uh yes
that's right. Uh I did the first Smith
lecture probably about 10 years ago now.
But as I mentioned to you on the phone
yesterday, uh I actually I think I did
the very first New Culture Forum event
which was in 2006
>> ironically on submission.
>> Yes, it was um I'd become friends with
Peter Whittle and uh he was starting the
new culture forum was pretty much him at
that point and um by the way one of the
great tributes to him is that this is
this all now exists and it's wonderful
wonderful to see. Um yes there was a a
film which Teran Go the Dutch filmmaker
had made with a script by Ayan Hers Ali
uh called Submission. It was a short
film uh it was broadcast in 2004 in the
Netherlands and uh Tvan Go the director
was murdered on the streets of Amsterdam
brutally decapitated and a message
stabbed in his body saying that Ayan
would be next and it was a deeply deeply
shocking event. It happened around the
same time as the 2006 sort of a 2004
sorry election um in the US. And so in a
way it took the world a while to catch
up with the seriousness of this of a of
a film director being murdered in a in a
European street for his work. Um, and I
had I had wanted for a long time to
screen the film.
Um, and spoke with Peter about it and
uh, and we did a screening of submission
in London 2006 for a live audience and I
introduced it, spoke on either side and
I suppose there were several things I
mentioned about that. Funn is, by the
way, is that it had exactly the effect I
hoped it would have, which was apart
from breaking the embargo on not showing
this film. Uh the number of people
afterwards I remember who said to me, uh
he was killed for that. You know, in
other words, quite often what happens
with censorship is that if you don't
show the thing, same with the Danish
cartoons, if you don't show the thing,
people's imaginations get to work and
they think it's much much worse. It must
have been something in it is the sort of
implication. And of course it's simply a
um a film about the subjugation of women
under Islam.
Um and I was very struck by that
response. You know it was that's all it
was. That's all it is. Um but I mention
it really because it was a huge credit
to Peter that he had the guts uh to do
that which not many people in fact I
can't think of almost anybody else in
London at the time who would have done.
It's enormous tribute to him. he had the
guts to do that and that he of course
instinctively understood that this was
the sort of thing anyone in culture
should really mind about. You know film
people and so on are very used to backs
slapping and congratulating themselves
and getting awards for bravery and you
know and all that sort of thing. But but
Dean Gawk was really brave and paid a
price for it.
Peter had the instinct, as I did, that
uh if that was to happen, you have to
spread the risk around and you have to
make sure that more people do that sort
of thing, not fewer. And his instinct,
as mine, is you know, you run against
the the the censor,
not with the crowd that is being censored.
censored.
>> And of course, people haven't. So, I
think both you and and Peter
>> have a a sort of prophetic talent for
seeing which way the wind is blowing. And
And
>> I don't think it's a talent
particularly. I just think it's using
your eyes.
>> I think many people maybe are not paying
as much attention perhaps. And I what
we've seen now obviously the Overton
window has um shifted quite dramatically
and I'd love to get your thoughts on,
you know, how far how far things have
changed um since 2006, but also I mean
some of the continuity there. We've
still got a teacher um from Batley who's
in hiding for showing a picture of the
prophet Muhammad. And we've got people
who be >> Muhammad.
>> Muhammad.
>> Yes, exactly. Precisely. I could mean
any number of Muhammads if I just said
Muhammad. Um and we've got people being
um who arrested for for burning Qurans
and and whatnot. So you how how how do
you think things have changed or not
changed in that period of time since
2006? you know, the ways in which things
have gotten worse. We're seeing so much
more involvement of of Islam within
British politics. We've got all of these
independent proghaza MP
>> sectarianism. Yeah.
>> And and this rising sectarianism in our
politics. And I wonder what you think
the impact of that is on our
>> on our democracy. You know, how how far
have things gone from from 2006 when you
did that first event?
>> Um well, I mean, it's a mixed bag, isn't it?
it?
On the one hand, of course, everything's
Everything's got worse. Uh the
sectarianism of our society has just got
infinitely worse. Um
Um
I think that the assassin's veto has
sort of been effective. As you
mentioned, the Batley uh school teacher
still in hiding. Um
Um
had a Samuel Patty, a French school
teacher beheaded for
um alleged blasphemy in school room in
France. And uh and although I knew those
things could keep happening, I assumed
that society would have a stronger
immune response to it. I don't think it
has actually. I think we've our immune
system as a society has weakened
but but it's not only bad news. The good
news is as I see it that that that there
are other people who who've stepped in
and taken up their share of the burden
on this. And I I feel this personally
very strongly. Um 10 years ago when
almost now when I was writing the
strange death of Europe, I felt very
alone in what I was saying. And um that
book came out in 2017 and in a way I
sort of thought well I've said
everything I have to say about this for
the time being. And um although lots of
people read it, few listened which again
I suppose I sort of well I certainly
expected the latter but you I want to
stress the good news is that that people
have stepped up stepped in not least
people new culture forum I think that in
itself is very important.
I don't feel alone in what I've been
saying for a quarter of a century or so
now. You know, I I've got good
colleagues, comrades,
uh and in some ways kind of feel that
they're picking up and uh and running
with it. And I I'm I think that's
something which uh we should we should
not just encourage but be grateful for.
I think you and you and I especially
were sort of the lone voices crying in
the wilderness because I remember
actually the first time we met. I think
I was probably about 19 and it was at
the the Cambridge Union. You were doing
a debate about whether or not uh
religion had a place in the 21st century
against Richard Dawkins
>> and I remember thinking God this person
is saying it. Um and and I look back on
that sort of period of time and I
remember obviously you were very
outspoken about Charlie Abdo and that
was really was sort of um you all of the
events surrounding Charlie really the
thing that sort of made me want to get
into this fight in the first place. Um,
but I look back on sort of 2016,
2017 when I was working at the Henry
Jackson Society and this there seemed to
be so much less that you could say you
know the overtone window of what can be
said has really really dramatically
shifted. I mean even particularly in the
last 5 years but even in the last year
and we'll get on to some of the stuff
around remigration and so on. Um but I
wonder whether actually you know on on
the one hand things have improved in the
sense that maybe the burden is is
finally being shared um a bit more uh
roundly. Um, but on the other hand,
I wonder if you would agree that we even
even if you know the Islamophobia
definition hasn't become official yet,
despite Labour pushing for it, that we
do in a sense have a an Islamic
blasphemy law that the British public
are subject to because you will get
arrested if you say burn a Quran.
>> Yes. Um the explanation the police and
others would give that for that is that
it's an event that is likely to incite
violence which by the way tells you
quite a lot in itself doesn't it? Um uh
my joke for too long now has been you
know if somebody says you know say my
religion is peaceful or I'll kill you
it's a giveaway. Um
um but
yeah, I the police and others in the UK
would say this is about keeping
community relations uh good and and um
keeping the peace. Think of that um uh
Turkish man, wasn't it? Who burnt a
Quran outside uh Turkish? Yes.
>> Outside the Turkish embassy in London.
And of course, you know, somebody runs
the minute he starts doing it. somebody.
By the way, I should stress I'm I'm not
for Quran burning. I'm not like, you
know, urging people to do that. I think
that burning any books is is is sinister
to say the least. But the idea that
there's one book that is especially
protected uh is I think is is sort of
intolerable. The fact that when he did
that, you know, a man immediately runs
out from the embassy with a knife and
starts hacking at him and a passing uh
motorcycle Uber delivery driver. I don't
know if we can say Uber, but a food
delivery driver sees a joins in, starts
kicking him in the head. I don't think
that guy's been arrested yet. But um the
police would say, "Well, you know, the
person who caused the incident was the
person who burned the Quran." And and
they would say, "You see what happens." >> Um
>> Um
>> I think I think the violence of the
other guy was used
as a reason for for for proving that he
that his action was inflammatory in some
way. So, it's a public order offense
because someone attacked.
>> Yes. It's circular logic, isn't it? Um,
no, I I I this is I see this all just as
an interim phase. I mean, it it's it's
the sort of thing that the police chiefs
and others can treat themselves to
whilst we're in this interim phase, but
it does it can't last. I mean, you can't
have people threatening violence
if somebody does something and obey them
for very long. Um,
so although I don't welcome it or
anything else, I I think there's there's
there's much more to come. Um, I'm
afraid everything I laid out in the
strange death of Europe as I see it has
been coming true. And um my worry is
that the ultimate things that I warned
against are on the brink of happening.
>> Of course, one of the um sort of side
effects of this sectarian violence, the
canary in the coal mine is always the
Jews. Um and we saw um the McKabby Tel
Aiv fans being banned um up north. I
wonder what you think of um David
Betts's argument that the conditions of
civil war have been set that actually in
in at least in some sense we are almost
um it's it's difficult for us to get off
of this path that we've set ourselves on
towards some kind of sectarian violence.
>> I don't know. I mean I I the talk of
civil war I mean there's been talk like
that in France for a very long time.
You'll remember a few years ago,
dozens of former army uh leaders in
France wrote a joint letter to the
French government saying, you know,
we're going to have a civil war in this
country if you don't reign in the
extremists who've arrived in. Um and uh
French government did what governments
in Europe always do like that and they
immediately withdrew the pensions from
the people who signed the letter and did
nothing. You know, I'm afraid that's
just to be expected. I I I don't know. I
Some of that is sort of febrile
talk. Some of it is wishful talk. By the
way, you have to be very careful when
people start talking about civil war and
things like that. You can kind of tell
in some pe it's rather like
anti-semitism actually. You can tell it
on the edge of the remark, you know. Um,
does somebody um talk about uh Jews or
do they talk about Jews? You know, and
in the same way, does somebody talk
about the potential for civil war in a
tone of voice of deep lamentation and
worry and concern, actually
understanding what that would mean for a
society like this in Britain? Or do they
talk about it with a certain glee?
>> Why why do you think that the the
discussion of civil war sort of caught
light so quickly? because I mean it was
I think David Betts did uh I think it
might have been Louise Perry's podcast
first um she was on here with a very
impressive voice or he was on here with
Peter um and it really took off and I I
wonder why you think that might be
because obviously it's touched on some
truth of people's experience. Uh several
things. One is by the way all societies are
are
uh only ever
a couple of bad events away from serious
disturbance. We we we slightly kid
ourselves in liberal democracies like
ours that you know all that is in the
past. Um in fact you know most most
people even without get getting into
this area know that you know for
instance if there's no food on the
shelves for like 48 hours I think you
know you get civil unrest in the UK I
think people have simply noticed that we
seem to be always
one lunatic's actions away from some
kind of meltdown and the obvious thing
to think of in that regard is Southport
the you
um the the the the the
vile young man who went and stabbed
those three young girls at the Taylor
Swift themed dance party didn't have a
nexus around him. So far as we can see,
he wasn't sort of sent by ISIS or
al-Qaeda or something. And um but just
consider that that one
despicable young man's actions led to
areas of the north of England um you
know going into civil unrest, police
cars being burned, police stations being
burned, places of worship including
mosques or mosques being attacked,
people throwing bricks. I um I I suppose
that's the sort of thing that people bet
are thinking about which is
you know imagine if instead of being one
person with a knife that have been
something more coordinated like for
instance the two men arrested for
Christmas for hoping to repeat the
batter class style atrocities and kill
130 people in Manchester preferably at a synagogue.
synagogue.
um if if that sort of thing happened,
you don't really know how the society is
going to respond.
And that's obviously what terrifies the
government, terrifies the Labor
government of Kistan, which would
terrify any government, you know. Um,
Um,
so that's I suppose really what people
like him are pointing to is that we
we're only ever one completely
unforeseeable of event, one individual
away from a sort of meltdown. I think
that's what they mean. And I I suppose
the other thing is of course that well
let me say two other things quickly. One
is obviously people are noticing the
majority population in current Britain
are noticing
uh that in many cases they're being made
second best. The obvious one is in
policing two policing two-tier policing
is a sort of is an example of it but
it's by no means the end of it. you know
it's uh it's people noticing I mean you
hear this all the time you know sort of
people say you know I just hear it all
the time in my own life you know the
know somebody's son in particular son
will you know left the country why young
white guy can't get a job you know sort
of thing there's there's
people have noticed there's a that the
game is rigged on a lot of levels in
ways which you know we shouldn't accept
we shouldn't accept if it was toward a
minority and we shouldn't accept it and
to a majority. Um and and then I suppose
the final thing on that is there's a
very important part of this which I
think is is underappreciated which is a
lot of this the conditions for civil
civil unrest and for serious disturbance
massively exacerbate when the economy is
not not going well.
Um I've thought about this a lot in
recent years in particular which is
you've probably had the experience as I
have of um you know friends or loved
ones or acquaintances um
um
doing increasingly less well in their
lives. Um you know the money goes
less and less far.
um you know their income or prospects
have stagnated at best, declined at worst
worst
and in that situation it's sort of
inevitable that people look for people
to blame.
>> And um and so I think you know to an
extent you know the economists much as I
slightly resent their desire to to have
100% of the terrain and claim that
everything is about economics are not
entirely wrong. If the economics is not
going well, if like in Britain, you
know, people do not feel that tomorrow
is going to be better than today.
>> Um, you have the beginnings of what you
need to have real civil problems.
>> I think I mean it's the same same in
America. It's never a good sign when
people are so often talking about things
like the price of eggs going up.
>> Yes. Although in America in America it
has to be stated that in America the
there is there is hope.
>> You see
>> here there isn't.
>> Right. Exactly. And and I noticed this
whenever I'm you know dotting between
the two dotting between the two
countries. Uh in America there are
reasons for optimism and hope including
the economy.
>> Uh they just aren't in the UK at the
moment and people feel that you sense
it. I wonder whether that part of this
is you you said that you know liberal
democracy thinking these things are sort
of behind us that actually people
>> have been including ourselves have I
been saying for for so many years you
know why isn't it that you know the
batclan attack wasn't the turning point
why wasn't South Point the turning point
at what point are people going to wake
up and deal with this problem um and I
wonder whether actually maybe it's the
effect of co all of the sort of civil
unrest that arose from the Black Lives
Matter movement and that kind of thing
that suddenly people have this maybe
even the Ukraine war people have this
sense of history being upon them all of
a sudden and we've seen and I I know
you've commented on this the um the
anti- anti-hostile vehicle bolards at
Christmas markets and things like that.
I wonder whether you feel that as you um
you previously uh years ago now um I
think did several debates about whether
or not Islam is a religion of peace
whether you feel that you have been
Well,
um I I mean that that particular
question I mean I was always just
irritated by it because um whenever
there was a terrorist attack done in the
name of Islam, that was what all
politicians said. They said, you know,
Islam is a religion of peace. And I
don't think it's solely a religion of
war by any means, but and there's plenty
of peaceful stuff in it, but there's
also a lot of war stuff in it. And I
just don't like the lies. I just don't
like the lies. I' I' I'd hate it if
somebody pretended that, you know, the
New Testament or the Old Testament
didn't contain things it contains. It
would just be a lie. Um so at least be
honest, you know. Um on the Islam one,
you know, I always thought that the vast
illiteracy in our societies about
religion in general, by the way, but
just, you know, was was extraordinary.
the um
the ignorance therefore of a foreign
religion which has not historically had
much place in Britain and it just hasn't
you know Islam meant that
people are even more ignorant I mean who
who among our governing class knows
anything about abrogation or you know
hadith or and not nobody and you know
there's a problem about that there's
always an implicit thing in my critique
of that which was that I didn't I never
wanted everyone to have to get up to
speed on all of that. In a way, I didn't
I want people to fill the potholes in
the road and lower taxes and, you know,
provide decent, you know, welfare and
things without it subsuming everything.
And I never wanted our politicians to
have to be be experts in Qanic exesis.
So whenever I argued that case about the
religion of Islam, it was it was just on
that basis, just let's be honest about
what's here if we're going to address
this and get, you know, um, decent sort
of, you know, decent Muslims who want
nothing to do with the jihadists to to
to face up to the problem in their own
in their own communities. And and that
just really hasn't happened very much.
to my observation the time I've been
doing this is there's a very sinister
sign which is that the
uh the so-called reformers the liberal
uh you know reinterpreters
are everywhere and always the people who
are under threat you know um and and if
everything were going well that wouldn't
be the case it would be the uh you know
preacher like this in a northern town
who's caught doing a Friday sermon you
know calling us all infidels. It would
be those people who would be not just
the subject of ayah from the British
state and the general British public but
subject of ayah from the Muslim
communities themselves, you know, and
that that just hasn't been the case. And
um uh that's that's a very bad sign. As
for vindication, I all I can say is
that, you know, I don't I don't really
like to think in those terms because
um as I always said, I never I never
wanted to be proven right. you know, I
always wanted to be proven wrong, which
may sound um
uh counterintuitive, but you know, I was
persuaded many years ago that that
if you're regarded as being a prophet on anything,
anything,
uh you failed
because a prophet, if you're doing your
job well, ought to have altered the
course of things because enough people
had listened to you and therefore the
thing would not have happened and
therefore you would never be acclaimed
as a prophet.
Uh being described as a prophet is a
description that you failed. Um,
Um,
but I I take some I don't know the the
the nicest thing I think anyone said
about any of my work was um the late
Rabbi Jonathan Saxs who said after
strange death came out. He said um he he
sent a message about the book and quoted
uh the book of Ezekiel.
He said um
uh what was it? He said, "And whether
they listen or fail to listen, they
shall know that a prophet stood among them."
them."
I was deeply deeply moved by that. But
um it was too much of a flat too too uh
praiseworthy. But um as I say, I I don't
like it because if I was right and what
I warned about is happening, that means
I failed.
>> So you you'll have seen the um prevent
video ridiculous prevent video game. um
that I don't know if you've seen this
that um some some council up north have
um put together this prevent video game
that's extremely um manipulative and um
it includes as far right things like
protests against the erosion of British
values uh researching statistics that
portray migration negatively defending
British rights is one of the things that
it puts in there as a red flag for
farright extremism and the reason why I
bring this up is I know obviously uh
your book was mentioned as a as reading
your book as a potential red flag um was
listed by the home office as uh possibly
signaling that somebody might be
adjacent to farright extremist.
>> By the way, I was extremely proud of
that because because the list of other
authors who were equally suspicious if
you had them on your bookshelves I think
was one
>> JR Tolken and also CS Lewis. I'm very
proud to go down with those guys. I'm
very very happy if if we're in the same
pot. I wonder though whether you think
um that our attempt to deal with
Islamist extremism has backfired
horribly and if so why you think it
might have backfired. Is it because of
the focus on British values? You know
what why how has this ended up somehow biting
biting
moderate conservative thinkers but
somehow not biting the Islamists?
>> Yeah, that's a very good question and um
I'm afraid the answer is simple simple
bureaucracy. When Prevent first started,
the government counter extremism
program, I was pretty negative about it
from the beginning because I didn't
think it could do what it was trying to do.
do.
Um, and then it just suffered what all
things suffer when the civil service and
others get their hands on them, which is
expanded and expanded. And you could see
things like the, you know, after the
2017 London Bridge attack, uh, the then
prime minister Theresa May, this is a
classic example. And this was the Tories
remember uh uh she appointed uh eminent
estimable Sarah Khan as the extremism
advisor commission. She comm she decides
Theresa May decides that after after
three men go across London Bridge
slashing at people's throats including a
pregnant woman shouting Alawba.
Um Theresa May announces that we're
going to look into extremism.
And when you look into extremism, what
it means is you have to appoint an
extremism commissioner. Then the
extremism commissioner spends a year
looking into the definition of the word
extremism. Then we wonder, well, are
what types of extremism exist? And and
are there other forms of extremism? And
then of course, because of the way in
which our society is now comprised, you
can't single out the single extremism
which is the most troubling one, people
will say, "Ah, you're saying only Muslim
extremists can carry out extremism." No.
Nobody I know would be so idiotic as to
claim that you can you can get extremism
from anything. You can get far-left
extremism, farright extremism. You could
you know in parts of the world we even
had Buddhist extremism you know. Um so
so no it was always a fake false sort of
thing this but in order not to
concentrate on the primary problem we
always had this thing of let's just look
at extremism in the round and as you
rightly say Emma the the the the
definition of that inevitably in time
the cordon was put in such a place that
it kept out
things that are majority British opinion
on things
>> like concern about immigration
like concern about the erosion of our
culture and values and so on. I just add
one other thing on that which is that
the the way in which this this has has
happened is that
it's since I would say it's pretty much
since 2001.
uh our populations changed massively in
uh in all western countries and we also
had this moment of having to face up to
a type of extremism we hadn't faced in
centuries actually. Um and it fell
during a moment of great questioning
about ourselves.
Um for 20 something years now we've had
this thing of like what are British
values? What does it mean?
Anyone who spent 20 years on a
psychiatrist's couch would go mad
if asked what they were, what they are.
And I I don't care for this conversation
anymore. I know what Britain is. I know
what what British values. I know what it
looks like. I know what it feels like. I
know what we have. I don't need civil
servants to tell me. I don't need uh
prime minister to start an inquiry into
what British values are. I don't I also
don't want people
coming to the country and telling me
what my values are. I think it's somewhat
somewhat
>> outrageous if I were to have uh or my if
if my parents had migrated to Pakistan
in the 1970s and I'd been born in Pakistan
Pakistan
and I went around telling everyone what
Pakistani values were, I'd get short
shrift. Um now of course we're a
different type of society uh from
Pakistan but and here we get into as
always one of the problems about
liberalism which is it's it's simply a
problem you live with. It's not it
doesn't have an ultimate answer but you
have to live with the the fact that you
will go through humiliating things. Um
but then the adults have to step forward
and say we've had enough of that. Thank
you. You know, we're not going to strip
ourselves bare. We're not going to be
endlessly told that we're no good. We're
not going to be told that our history is
no good. Thank you very much. But we've
had enough of that.
And unfortunately, there just haven't
been enough adults in the room.
>> Yeah. There seem to that's slightly
worrying that there seem to be so few
adults, less and less adults that there
are available to even be in the room.
>> Yeah. And then of course over time as as
unfortunately as I've seen all too much um
um
uh you lose people,
the memory starts to go and
>> um and the bench comes ever thinner
>> which is when young people um have to
step up and and and learn and but it's
not enough to be in opposition to
something. you have to learn what it is
that you defend and what you love. And
that's that's a bit that you know many
of us in our lives and careers can get
out of kilter.
Um but to some extent and again this is
what Peter will understood is that is
that culture is about doing it.
>> You know culture is about doing culture
>> and it's something that's not abstract.
It's something that's cultivated. And I
think you see obviously British values
were designed to be as watery as
possible so that they wouldn't be
objectionable to people who holds values
who who adhere to value systems from
other parts of the world.
>> Well well also they're so wide as to be
meaningless. That's the problem with the
the all the definitions of our values is
they're so wide as to be meaningless.
I've I've said this for many years and
sorry I repeat myself but sometimes I
have to. Um or Jed says somewhere, you
know, everything has already been said,
but since no one listens, one has to say
it again. Um uh if you define your
values so broadly that they can
basically encompass anything, then you
have no values. And um if you say that
your your country is about kindness for instance,
instance,
>> you know, even the
even the Iranian revolutionary
government, which we must hope is on its
last legs at the moment, never said, you
know, we're for unkindness. You know,
anyone can say that they're in the
business of kindness or, you know, and
and and many of us, I mean, Peter felt
this. I feel this very strongly. Many of
us object to what is a very very
specific culture. We don't have to say
it's better than anyone else's culture
even. Although some of us might think
that much of our culture is better than
than than um certain other cultures, but
um it's just that it's ours.
>> That's okay.
>> And that's okay.
>> And that's okay.
you know, um if if if somebody is uh
Chinese and believes that, you know, I
understand the instinct of them to want
to defend Chinese culture
>> in the same way that you're allowed to
love your mother more than you love my mother.
mother.
>> Exactly. Exactly. I think it was James
all who made that point recently
somewhere, didn't he? you know,
everybody everybody has the best mother,
you know, and but and we we used to
assume we used to recognize until quite
recent, you know, like um the French
believe they're the best, you know, the
British believe they're the best. Uh you
know, the Spanish it Americans think
they're the best. That's that's all
fine. It's fine. We don't have to fall
out about it. Everyone can have their
thing. um you know like like everyone's
child is the most brilliant child you
know and and that's fine we expect it
from parents and and and so why is it so
difficult to do this as a culture and
and I tell you what I really object to
in this is the sheer ignorance of the
people talking to me about this talking
at me I should say about this when I
hear a minister and this can go across
again political parties when I hear them
talking about Britain. I just think,
"Tell me your favorite British poet.
Recite one to me. Tell me your favorite
Shakespeare play. When did you last go
to the theater? When did you tell me
about the great cathedrals of England?
Which is your what are your top three
favorites? Um tell me which uh composers
resonate most with you. Why do you think
Finy breaks the English heart so much
when you listen to him? I don't I I
don't think
I I I don't think almost any
parliamentarian would know what I'm
talking about.
>> Completely uncultivated. So they're
totally unqualified to be able to
>> they're totally unqualified. It would be
like me landing, as I say, landing in um
Myanmar and um um knowing nothing about
the culture and talking about the
culture. They're foreigners in their own
country and I wonder whether actually
this is the reason why
>> and by the way so I would stress that's
not just sort of people of that's not
we're not talking only about people of
immigrant background I mean talking about
about
>> yeah British British people whose
ancestry have been here since the
Normans or something but are so
alienated from their own culture
>> well they've alienated themselves from
it the fools
>> and I I wonder whether I mean part of
that's obviously the in increasingly
poor educ education system. But I wonder
um whether actually this is the reason
why the threat of Islamism has been so
misunderstood and why we have only been
able to talk about it in the abstract
rather than in the particular and
addressing it as as for what it is
because Islamism is in any country that
it's in is intending to subvert that
particular culture. And if you try to
deal with it in the abstract, you're not
understanding the nature of the threat.
No, I mean I mean you know like many
Iranians didn't understand the nature of
the Ayatollah's threat in 1979
and what a mistake that was to
underestimate what Hmeni really intended.
intended.
Um when it happens in our own countries
but I I I come back to this thing
that of all of the ways you can deal
with that. My preference always was
to be highly specific on identifying the
threat, zapping the threat,
but at the same time
keeping on going
and cherishing what is ours
and instead
um because people don't listen.
the it was pushed everything was pushed
down like this and everything became shallow
shallow
and um so wide as to be a useless um
um
related to this or at least I think it's
related to this why do you think that
the mainstream media have been so silent
on what is happening in Iran I saw a
fantastic uh tweet the other day that
explained it um as as I was wondering
why is it that they're being so silent
and um this woman explained that that
it's because the the the you know
liberal metropolitan elite types in the
media um
cannot conceptualize
that people could possibly be revoling
against Islam that this is just
something that is so anathema to them so
outside of their frame
>> they're not revoling against Islam
they're revoling against homanianism Um
Um
uh most people in Iran will remain
Muslim after a revolution as they were
before. But it's but it you know the the
the thing for them is the curse of Iran
since 79 has been hanism. I think that
many people in the west have just again
have no concept of what I mean when I'm
describing. I we we all had a glimpse of
it in from 1989 with the ayatollus fatwa
and the British novelist Salman Roy for
writing the satanic verses. That was a
that was that should have been a pretty
early lesson which again you know we
sort of um we internalized the fatwa
instead of just resisting it. Uh we we
we sort of accepted it. I think that
again I mean it's if we're so ignorant
about ourselves as a country, how could
we possibly understand
uh a form of government which for
instance in Hmeni's own um uh I mean if
you if you read the blue book of Humenia
which is quite hard to get but if if you
read it as I have this is this is
properly insane um apocalyptic stuff. I
mean, you know, the sort of, you know,
uh, um, a woman who is, uh, going to be
executed can be raped beforehand
in order that she doesn't go to heaven.
Now, I mean,
can we imagine, can our women's minister
even imagine that there is a society on
earth where that happens?
Where rape is endorsed by the government
as a form of moral correction before
execution? It's it's it's beyond the do
they understand that Hini
uh thought very deeply for instance
about what um you should do and I'm not
I'm not saying this to laugh at Muslims
I'm saying it's to laugh at Hmeni but
that Hmeni thought very deeply about
what happens if you have carnal
relations with a goat.
Do you know this? Am I allowed to say
this on YouTube? I don't know. We'll see
how we go.
>> Come on.
>> Get us demonetized, Douglas.
>> Okay, here we go. Uh, homie, among other
things, thinks about what you should do
if if the man ejaculates inside the goat
that he owns. Should he also be allowed
to eat it afterwards? And the answer is no.
no.
>> You should uh you should gift it to a
>> So, the the act of
>> what's the reasoning behind that? Well,
everyone knows you can't eat a goat. You
>> I mean, we we all know that.
>> Come on, Emma. >> But
>> But
>> I don't know what happens in your
village, but uh
>> what's wrong with the neighboring
village? What do they deserve?
>> No. No, but I always wondered that if I
was an Iranian nice Iranian family
sitting in my uh um my village just
outside uh you know uh Thran and a
neighbor comes over and I don't know
neighbor says
>> yeah except a goat from the neighbor.
>> Exactly. He goes, "Look, I got Billy a
goat here. I just wondered if you like
him. You you you know what that son of a
dog's been up to." But can you imagine
this is the sort of thing that Hmeni was
deeply deeply interested in thinking
about. um never mind once you get to the
violence and uh and and and the demand
that people give up their lives
for hate
>> and um again you know we uh I mean by
the way there's a brilliant passage in
the satanic verses of Salman Rushi about
the Ayatollah which I wish people read
more which is actually taken lifted from
an interview I I assume that he never
said this but assume it's lifted from
the great Ariana Falachi's interview
with Humeni about the only western
journalist who got an in-depth interview
with Romania in 1979.
Uh she says at one point in the intro,
brilliant, brilliant intro that she was,
you know, she he describes all these
people dying for the revolution and says
they're dying for love and phili says it
is hate Illa it is hate
and in the satanic verses of Salmon
Rushi there's legions of young Iranians
walking into the jaws of the massive
Ayatollah's mouth as it chomps down on
them. I
we no there's no understanding of this.
>> We've I think we've come to accept from
the left I mean given the fact that the
left actually helped the Islamists take
over in Iran and and and and ironically
when the left do um come out effectively
in support of the Ayatollah
they do so forgetting that all of their
comrades were then very quickly
slaughtered. Don't know if they forget
that the problem with the Iranian back
as I understand well as I understand I
mean the problem the problem was that
the left
>> well I mean the western left
>> well quite yes what often happen I mean
what happens internally is similar to
what happened in Austria in 38 is that
the the um political side is divided in
the case of Iran left was divided trade
unionists Marxists anti-mollikists
leftists and so on and when you have
sides that are that divided you can get
somebody coming through The the example
I give of 38 is, you know, the right in
Austria was divided because there were
conservatives who were in favor of the
return of the Hapsburgs and
conservatives who were not in favor of
the return of the Hapsburgs and then
another Austrian comes through the
middle. But I I wonder, you know,
like I say, I think I' at least I have
come to expect the left to side with the
West's enemies, but actually we're
seeing more now people on the right who
would sooner side with Hamas or
Hezbollah or the Ayatollah over Israel.
And they actually see that as being
patriotic. They see in in effect siding
with the West's enemies as the patriotic
option. Well, let let me say one thing
before addressing that, which is that I
suspect I I I'm been following this
corner a lot. I've been relatively
silent on this question recently because
I've been writing, but um I think what I
see bubbling up in um some young people
really on the right um is a feeling that
too much emphasis and weight is put on
Israel. I'm I'm giving the the kindest
interpretation before I go to the unkindest.
unkindest.
The kindest interpretation is there's an
awful lot of weight put on Israel. Why
why do we have to be so supportive is
what they're thinking. Now, my answer to
that is obvious in the same way that you
know, you obviously support the
countries that are most like you. You
know, I don't have a problem. I never
did have a problem that between
government in Jerusalem of Israel and
Israeli society and the government even
of Mahmud Abbas and the Palestinian
Authority in the West Bank. I I didn't
have a problem deciding which I was in
more in favor of more kkin to
um but I think some people
young people on the right have started
to just they just and this isn't an
attack on on on on all of them. Well,
I'm about to attack some of them. Um,
but I think there's a sort of why why is
this such a big thing?
And some of them by natural contrarian
instinct start to kick against that or
resent it or something like that. And um
I understand that as an impulse,
but impulse isn't enough. You also have
to have uh principles
and uh morals about these things.
And uh I think that
the the thing that has come sidecar with
that movement
has been something which I have to say
has um uh shocked me. I wouldn't say
shocked. It's upset me actually that
that there was a
um there was a genuine Cordon saniter.
I've always been against Cornet being
put in the wrong place.
Uh as I say,
>> but they have their uses.
>> Yeah, they do. I mean, I've been against
Cordor Sanitz being put in such a place
that, you know, people who worry about migration
migration
should be beyond the pale or um I I
don't know anyone who is is opposed
certain moral questions. I I I don't
like the court or Santa keeping out, you
know, legitimate opinion, legit
legitimate questions. Now, you might
say, what is legitimate? What is
illegitimate? Well, the illegitimate
thing would be when you start to blame
everything on the Jews. And um you know,
I I um
I I've sort of said everything I have to
say about that in my most recent book on
democracies and death cults, which is
about the last two and a half years of
war. Um but something that is happening
is a generational swing.
Uh my my general feeling is that some of
the stuff we see from particularly from
people on the American real far right
and some earthw friends of mine which
obviously adds to the pain pain that one
feels about it is that they
they're doing things which they wouldn't
have dared to do even 10 years ago. And
I think it's a generational swing because
because
um the generation that went through the
war, survivors of the Holocaust and
people who fought
against Nazism
have almost all died out
and with it to steal Kamu's phrase with
it with with that moment the rats start
to come out of the sewers again. I
I
had a a set of losses of friends before
Christmas, including Peter and also my
friend David Price Jones, wonderful
writer, and and uh Tom Stoppard died.
And um I for some reason this this all
this hit me rather acutely among other
reasons because David and Tom were among
my last friends who had themselves had
to flee uh
uh
the monster of Hitler. And uh David
was taken with his family away from
Hungary before the the Nazis invaded and
then as a boy was rushed out of Paris
one morning when the Germans were coming in.
in.
Got to Spain and then North Africa. Tom
Stoppard of course his family managed to
get out Czechoslovakia just before
Hitler came in. These were people who
the 20th century glanced against were
glanced against breeze significantly
and I sort of thought well yeah that's
the last of the kids who missed the the
great catastrophe by a hair's breath and
and
I I suppose first I said this but the
last time I saw Tom uh stopard was about
a year ago and I remember he said to me
uh he said to me it's back isn't said
>> it's back. I said what? He said the
antise-semitism is back. And he said he
said I mean he he said he had not spent
much of his life thinking about this
question. He thought it was a matter for
the past
and he saw he he said maybe he said I
actually have friends Jewish friends
were talking about leaving you know
getting out.
>> I know people who have just recently
gone to Israel because of this exact
issue. And then you get so anyway first
of all I say that because it's something
which has been much
torturing my mind really and um um
saddening me that this should be so uh
at the same time that that's as it is is
that is that this this hatred is back
this desire to blame the Jews for
everything is back and some people are
suffering from it and being demented by
it very severely.
Um I'd just add one other thing on that
though which is that
we get back to something which
is is more to do with the general
picture which is
and it gets back to this thing of the as
it were the understandable feeling on
the part of the young right and their
attitudes towards Israel and the Jews
which is the sense that um
um
well to quote the character in Mikuel
Wellbeck's submission.
I don't have an Israel.
>> That that if you remember is what the
the the Jewish student who's having
affair with the professor in typical
Wbecian uh setup um that the that the
professor is not Jewish. The student
comes to him and she says as France is
getting worse and worse uh says you know
I'm going to make aliyah. I'm going to
move to Israel. It's got too bad here
for Jews. and the and her lover
professor says, "I don't have an Israel
now." And I think just very quickly, I
think that a lot of young figures on the
right that I see coming up, some of whom
are very, very brilliant and smart, some
of whom um are trollike trogdites of a
kind that I have no time for at all. But
But
>> I won't ask you which is which.
>> Yeah. Um they they'll know. They'll
know. Um
I think one of the things is hang on
this is all we have. Mhm.
>> I mean, of course, the reason why Israel
is such a miracle, and I don't mind
saying it in those terms, is that it is
there now as the place to go to for some
Jews, not all, some Jews, if it if life
is intolerable elsewhere. In New York,
the other week, there was a synagogue
where there was a meeting of people to
to find out about making aliyah to move
to Israel, Jewish New Yorkers. And
outside were hundreds of people
screaming abuse at them. And and you go,
"Well, okay." And this is always the
terrible spot for Jews, which is you
you're damned every way, you know,
>> if you if if if if you're thinking of
moving to Israel, you're damned. If you
don't, you're screamed at,
>> you know,
>> and actually, I mean, the anti-semmites
make the best case for the the need for
the existence of Israel. So, they on the
one hand criticize Zionism, but on the
other hand, necessitate it. So you'll
have absolutely some ethnats who will
say um you know that that that Israel is
itself an ethnostate and that they only
want the same thing but at the same time
they say well the Jews have their own
country so they can
>> they can leave.
>> Yes that's right. But but but you get
back to this thing of
>> I don't have an Israel. I and this is
this is very important for us all to
address. We cannot become
We can't have a we can't have we you know
know
British people for instance we we cannot
have our home taken away from us
completely or told that we're homeless
and put up with it and that this as an
instinct I do understand. Um well in
that case the best thing to do is not to
attack a minority with a very specific
set of historical, cultural, religious,
geographical reasons
for being where they are in every sense.
but to work at doing this yourself.
You know, I I I I don't want to hear
much from people who want to blame
others for their own destitution culturally.
culturally.
It's up to you to resolve that, to solve
that, to address it, and to do it. And
and and so I suppose part of that it
goes back to what you were saying
earlier about civil war and all that
sort of thing, which is we are going to
have to in order to avoid the worst
situations, the worst possibilities, we
are going to have to say what you and I
do say and what we've already said in
this this discussion, which is we love
it because it's ours and we wish to keep
it and we will not um we we will we will
only be pushed around so far
>> and maybe we've been pushed around
enough too much. Um
I I'm always conscious in saying this
that for a very rare moment in my life I
I confess to some privilege. Um,
Um,
I have the privilege of being able to
say and write what I think.
Now, this is not uh God-given and it's
not luck. It's not um anything else.
It's because I've worked for it, which I
think is important to stress. There's
not something in, you know, my mother's
milk or something that that meant I had
this right. And it's not anything to do
with the way I speak or the way I was
educated or anything like that. It's
because I've worked very hard to
as you might say earn the right to speak up
up
to public
>> on behalf of others as well.
>> Well, I like to think so, but you know,
I I say that because
it's it's it's it's earned privilege in
my view, but it is a privilege
nevertheless, and I never take it for granted.
granted.
I noticed, for instance, that when, as
happened last year, the police went to
the house of a man who was himself a
former police officer,
handcuffed him on his doorstep in
England. 11 police officers went into
his house because of a tweet he'd sent
out. And we have from the body cam
footage the police going through his bookshelves.
bookshelves.
Among the books were books of mine
showing that he was a
distinguished and learned man and man of
great taste. They have copies of the
spectator magazine showing again that
he's a man of great taste. The officers
doing it saying, "Oh, these are all very
Brexity things." I mention this story
because I'm struck that way I say about
this thing about confessing my
privilege. A priv I so far the police
would not dare to come to my house to do
that. Partly I think because I know you
haven't arrested you at the border like
Graeme Lahan with armed police.
>> No. Uh um and um maybe it's because I've never
never
done anything or said anything that's
particularly objectionable. Or maybe
it's that they know that rather like the
wolf in the fairy story. If they tried,
I would lick my lips, eat them alive.
But the reason I mention all this is a
rather longwinded way of saying it is
that I'm acutely aware that there are
many many people who think what I think
or you think but do not have a voice
and are being
uh either actively suppressed in what
they're saying or are feeling like they
can't say what they can say.
And um
so we're in a rather privileged position
on this, but it's not to be taken for
granted. And what I would say about that
is there's nothing wrong with speaking
up. And I think that many of the
problems we have in our country will
only be addressed if people do.
>> And that's one of the things of hope is
that people who think they're voiceless
are not.
They they may not have a column in a
national newspaper or a magazine. They
may not appear on television or even you
know on podcasts or whatever. But they
do have a voice and this is their right
as Englishmen
and as British men and they should uh
they should exercise it. Don't don't
moan don't moan about it. You know,
>> one of the big stats that everybody's
still talking about is this um prediction that by60, white British
prediction that by60, white British people will be a minority. Um and with
people will be a minority. Um and with that, and you mentioned civil war,
that, and you mentioned civil war, again, the fear that um actually white
again, the fear that um actually white British people will be in some danger,
British people will be in some danger, not just their culture will be in
not just their culture will be in danger, but actually, you know,
danger, but actually, you know, sectarianism and so on, that we will be
sectarianism and so on, that we will be in in some kind of danger if we were to
in in some kind of danger if we were to be a minority in our own country.
be a minority in our own country. From this has come this big debate
From this has come this big debate between the civats and the ethnats and
between the civats and the ethnats and this weird situation where Tommy
this weird situation where Tommy Robinson who was on the benchmark of the
Robinson who was on the benchmark of the of the far right is being criticized for
of the far right is being criticized for being a wet by the ethnats for being too
being a wet by the ethnats for being too much of a civnat. Um, and I wonder what
much of a civnat. Um, and I wonder what you think of that
you think of that um of that debate and actually whether I
um of that debate and actually whether I know obviously um when you wrote about
know obviously um when you wrote about um the the woke left, you um described
um the the woke left, you um described it as a train pulling into the platform
it as a train pulling into the platform and then steaming right through and
and then steaming right through and crashing through the station. I wonder
crashing through the station. I wonder whether perhaps you see that now
whether perhaps you see that now happening on the right. Um because I
happening on the right. Um because I think
think the the the concerns I think are very
the the the concerns I think are very fair. I think many British people want
fair. I think many British people want the white British population to remain a
the white British population to remain a majority in their own country and and I
majority in their own country and and I imagine that you would think that that's
imagine that you would think that that's a very fair
a very fair >> um demand. But it's very difficult to
>> um demand. But it's very difficult to justify that in terms that don't get
justify that in terms that don't get accused of of being racist. But at the
accused of of being racist. But at the same time, I think, and you and I would,
same time, I think, and you and I would, um, I'm sure agree on this, that we
um, I'm sure agree on this, that we wouldn't like, for example, our good
wouldn't like, for example, our good friend Andy No to be deported for not
friend Andy No to be deported for not having any English ancestry. So, I just
having any English ancestry. So, I just wonder what you think of that debate and
wonder what you think of that debate and where you stand on those issues.
where you stand on those issues. >> Well, it it it just take a sort of
>> Well, it it it just take a sort of 40,000 foot view for a second. I mean uh
40,000 foot view for a second. I mean uh I I think it's would pretty much be
I I think it's would pretty much be deemed undesirable for any country to
deemed undesirable for any country to have its population
have its population fundamentally
fundamentally changed in a course of a few
changed in a course of a few generations. I mean, you know, if if if
generations. I mean, you know, if if if if
if Pakistan suddenly in the course of one
Pakistan suddenly in the course of one person's lifetime became majority Welsh,
person's lifetime became majority Welsh, um I don't think people would
um I don't think people would I I don't think
I I don't think >> What a thought.
>> What a thought. >> Yeah. I mean, I don't think people would
>> Yeah. I mean, I don't think people would celebrate it partic I I don't think I
celebrate it partic I I don't think I don't think any of us would say, "Yeah,
don't think any of us would say, "Yeah, great. They had it coming.
great. They had it coming. bring more of the Welsh guys in. Let's
bring more of the Welsh guys in. Let's let's screw up a Pakistani society and
let's screw up a Pakistani society and change it and and uh um
change it and and uh um >> force them all to wear daffodils.
>> force them all to wear daffodils. >> Yeah. And sing all the time. Um, I I I
>> Yeah. And sing all the time. Um, I I I I think it would just be weird and
I think it would just be weird and certainly unless you really hated the
certainly unless you really hated the country in question, surely not
country in question, surely not desirable to encourage.
desirable to encourage. Um,
Um, so that I just sort of think that would
so that I just sort of think that would be the case anywhere.
be the case anywhere. Um,
Um, why is it different with us in the UK
why is it different with us in the UK and why are we not meant to even sort of
and why are we not meant to even sort of say, "Oh, I'm not quite sure I like that
say, "Oh, I'm not quite sure I like that idea." Uh, it's it's really because
idea." Uh, it's it's really because we've we've got caught in something that
we've we've got caught in something that again, New Culture Forum published a
again, New Culture Forum published a book about many years ago, which I
book about many years ago, which I contributed a um a chapter to, I think
contributed a um a chapter to, I think it was called a sorry state about the
it was called a sorry state about the sort of idea that there's something
sort of idea that there's something uniquely guilty about us, which means we
uniquely guilty about us, which means we deserve erasia. And I don't agree with
deserve erasia. And I don't agree with that. I think actually, you know,
that. I think actually, you know, Britain has been a great force for good
Britain has been a great force for good in the world, much more of a force of
in the world, much more of a force of good than a force for ill. We have
good than a force for ill. We have history like everyone. We're here
history like everyone. We're here because history happened. But I don't I
because history happened. But I don't I see no reason why anyone should feel uh
see no reason why anyone should feel uh guilt and uh be told that they don't
guilt and uh be told that they don't deserve to exist as a recognizable
deserve to exist as a recognizable majority in their country simply because
majority in their country simply because of something historically. Um so yes, I
of something historically. Um so yes, I understand this concern. I'm I'm I'm
understand this concern. I'm I'm I'm deeply concerned about it myself. Um I
deeply concerned about it myself. Um I don't like the idea of Britain
don't like the idea of Britain disappearing from the world. I think the
disappearing from the world. I think the world would be much worse off. I um um
world would be much worse off. I um um in the same way I don't want to see
in the same way I don't want to see France disappear from the world. I I
France disappear from the world. I I love France, you know. Um it's different
love France, you know. Um it's different from us, but it's it's got wonderful
from us, but it's it's got wonderful things. And um so I understand the fears
things. And um so I understand the fears people have. I would I would simply
people have. I would I would simply issue a warning once again which is if
issue a warning once again which is if we do not sort this out we will have to
we do not sort this out we will have to learn to live like the Lebanese.
learn to live like the Lebanese. >> It'll be like Lebanon in this country. I
>> It'll be like Lebanon in this country. I mean Lebanon from the 1980s onwards.
mean Lebanon from the 1980s onwards. By the way, Philip Lasson, who was one
By the way, Philip Lasson, who was one of the journalists at Shali Abdo, who
of the journalists at Shali Abdo, who was who survived the massacre in 2015,
was who survived the massacre in 2015, wrote a book about his recovery called
wrote a book about his recovery called Disturbance, in which one of the nurses
Disturbance, in which one of the nurses says that to him in the recovery unit.
says that to him in the recovery unit. Two years later, he's still having his
Two years later, he's still having his jaw put back together. And the Batclam
jaw put back together. And the Batclam massacre happens and one of the nurses
massacre happens and one of the nurses says to him, "We're going to have to
says to him, "We're going to have to learn to live like the Lebanese and to
learn to live like the Lebanese and to think I used to pity them."
think I used to pity them." um that that I'm afraid on the current
um that that I'm afraid on the current trajectory is is roughly where I think
trajectory is is roughly where I think we will be is at best we'll we'll be
we will be is at best we'll we'll be like Lebanon.
like Lebanon. >> Um and I don't want Britain to be like
>> Um and I don't want Britain to be like Lebanon. I I I don't uh
Lebanon. I I I don't uh >> there are some people who I think would
>> there are some people who I think would accuse anybody calling for some kind of
accuse anybody calling for some kind of moderation, not just of being a wet
moderation, not just of being a wet because I think there is always a danger
because I think there is always a danger of you know for so long we've not been
of you know for so long we've not been able to say things. because we've not
able to say things. because we've not been able to sort of we've had to have
been able to sort of we've had to have all of our sharp edges sanded off in
all of our sharp edges sanded off in some way.
some way. >> Um, and you know, we do want to prevent
>> Um, and you know, we do want to prevent these things from happening. We do want
these things from happening. We do want to win,
to win, >> but whenever somebody suggests that
>> but whenever somebody suggests that maybe so and so has gone too far,
maybe so and so has gone too far, there's very often an accusation of of
there's very often an accusation of of gatekeeping or controlled opposition,
gatekeeping or controlled opposition, maybe because you're willing to call out
maybe because you're willing to call out some of the wrongs of Islam, but you're
some of the wrongs of Islam, but you're not willing to talk about, you know,
not willing to talk about, you know, Judaism. They would compare Islamophobia
Judaism. They would compare Islamophobia and anti-semitism that kind of thing.
and anti-semitism that kind of thing. Yeah. Where do you think the right, you
Yeah. Where do you think the right, you know, balance is to be struck? Do you
know, balance is to be struck? Do you think there are some people who are like
think there are some people who are like that train going through the, you know,
that train going through the, you know, smashing through the platform?
smashing through the platform? >> Yeah, I do. I do. And I'll tell you, I I
>> Yeah, I do. I do. And I'll tell you, I I know what they're doing. I'm very aware
know what they're doing. I'm very aware of what they're doing. One of the things
of what they're doing. One of the things they're doing is something that I I
they're doing is something that I I think we probably all did at some point
think we probably all did at some point in our formative years, which is it's
in our formative years, which is it's it's if you don't if the situation you
it's if you don't if the situation you find yourself in in your society is um
find yourself in in your society is um um is as it is today,
um is as it is today, there is a tendency to go back
there is a tendency to go back and try to find where it went wrong.
and try to find where it went wrong. And then on top of that, a desire to
And then on top of that, a desire to find out the things that were left
find out the things that were left behind that shouldn't have been left
behind that shouldn't have been left behind.
behind. And that's a very
And that's a very um that can be a fruitful thing.
um that can be a fruitful thing. Sometimes you go back and you discover
Sometimes you go back and you discover something has left been left behind that
something has left been left behind that shouldn't have been left behind.
shouldn't have been left behind. aspects of powism for instance I would
aspects of powism for instance I would absolutely include on that shouldn't
absolutely include on that shouldn't have been so dismissed should have been
have been so dismissed should have been considered should have been taken on
considered should have been taken on board better by the authorities
board better by the authorities um
um and then you find other things that were
and then you find other things that were left behind and they were left behind
left behind and they were left behind for a reason
for a reason >> like anti-semitism
>> like anti-semitism >> like anti-semitism
>> like anti-semitism um there is a reason why that cordon
um there is a reason why that cordon existed
existed which to reiterate what people have said
which to reiterate what people have said a million times is that it's among other
a million times is that it's among other things it's a sign of deep ill health in
things it's a sign of deep ill health in a society when you start to blame the
a society when you start to blame the Jews but
Jews but but you know the some things were left
but you know the some things were left behind for a reason on the issue of the
behind for a reason on the issue of the ethnationalism thing we are in a deep
ethnationalism thing we are in a deep problem on this and I think that the
problem on this and I think that the people playing with this must know that
people playing with this must know that this is a
this is a which is I mean you describe this debate
which is I mean you describe this debate as if everybody watching understands the
as if everybody watching understands the difference between civic national
difference between civic national nationalism ethnationalism and so on and
nationalism ethnationalism and so on and that's presumably because you're um in
that's presumably because you're um in some of the heat of this yourself in
some of the heat of this yourself in your public and offline life I imagine a
your public and offline life I imagine a lot of the general public would not not
lot of the general public would not not know what we're talking about now
know what we're talking about now there's a way of looking at that of
there's a way of looking at that of saying well aren't the general public
saying well aren't the general public idiots or there's a way of saying maybe
idiots or there's a way of saying maybe we're
we're >> playing games that are basically obtuse
>> playing games that are basically obtuse and
and don't really reflect
don't really reflect the political or social reality of the
the political or social reality of the country we're in. You know, maybe it's
country we're in. You know, maybe it's maybe it's kind of indulgent to to be
maybe it's kind of indulgent to to be doing this kind of stuff. So, there are
doing this kind of stuff. So, there are several ways you can pass that uh that
several ways you can pass that uh that that that issue.
that that issue. The the the ethnationalist thing is
The the the ethnationalist thing is always going to run into a problem,
always going to run into a problem, which is
which is what are you going to do about it? M
what are you going to do about it? M >> I mean you mentioned one friend of ours
>> I mean you mentioned one friend of ours earlier, deep anglophile.
earlier, deep anglophile. Um
Um everybody knows
everybody knows people who
people who >> they don't want to deport.
>> they don't want to deport. >> They don't want to deport and that it
>> They don't want to deport and that it would be deeply undesirable to deport.
would be deeply undesirable to deport. problem is is this is this is the
problem is is this is this is the madness of the I've always said this is
madness of the I've always said this is one of the madnesses of the mass
one of the madnesses of the mass migration legal and illegal policies of
migration legal and illegal policies of consecutive British governments
consecutive British governments is that is that you make the whole thing
is that is that you make the whole thing such a mess.
such a mess. >> The whole thing is going to be such a
>> The whole thing is going to be such a mess.
mess. >> We shouldn't be having to have this
>> We shouldn't be having to have this conversation because we never consented
conversation because we never consented to any of this in the first place.
to any of this in the first place. >> No. And you know it should have been the
>> No. And you know it should have been the case that that people who arrived
case that that people who arrived um you know my own thing was always
um you know my own thing was always migration has three components only that
migration has three components only that matter numbers speed identity
matter numbers speed identity and it's not a science but there is some
and it's not a science but there is some number of people that can come into a
number of people that can come into a society from a from from outside the
society from a from from outside the society which helps your society and is
society which helps your society and is desirable.
desirable. There is some speed at which that can be
There is some speed at which that can be done. I would say very very slow and in
done. I would say very very slow and in very small numbers.
very small numbers. The identity one I always said was the
The identity one I always said was the one that people didn't want to touch but
one that people didn't want to touch but is very important. It is different when
is very important. It is different when French Protestant hugenos come over in
French Protestant hugenos come over in the 17th century. That is different.
the 17th century. That is different. It's a couple of days worth coming over
It's a couple of days worth coming over on the channel
on the channel >> from a couple of days worth of North
>> from a couple of days worth of North African and African migrant males coming
African and African migrant males coming over every day. It just is different.
over every day. It just is different. Um, however, of these three things,
Um, however, of these three things, um, we're in a deep mess because we've
um, we're in a deep mess because we've all clocked a long time ago.
all clocked a long time ago. the the people who come across on the
the the people who come across on the channel, even the people who come across
channel, even the people who come across to study and you know like all those
to study and you know like all those sort of rich people from the Indian
sort of rich people from the Indian subcontinent who come and study at UK
subcontinent who come and study at UK universities and uh learn about the
universities and uh learn about the crimes of colonialism and how ghastly
crimes of colonialism and how ghastly Britain is and weirdly enough still stay
Britain is and weirdly enough still stay here um
here um >> while whipping us.
>> while whipping us. >> Yeah, I I I'm my own
>> Yeah, I I I'm my own >> say flogging us. It sounds like an EOP
>> say flogging us. It sounds like an EOP power illusion.
power illusion. >> Yeah, I know. But my my own my mistake
>> Yeah, I know. But my my own my mistake >> my own tastes in no way extend to
>> my own tastes in no way extend to massochism. And I'm not a masochist. I
massochism. And I'm not a masochist. I I'm not I'm not I'm not willing to be
I'm not I'm not I'm not willing to be one of those people. I never have been
one of those people. I never have been who's willing to be stood over by
who's willing to be stood over by somebody else telling me that I should
somebody else telling me that I should agree that I'm nothing. I No, no, no,
agree that I'm nothing. I No, no, no, no, no. Not doing that. Um and so just
no, no. Not doing that. Um and so just quickly on this, the the problem is that
quickly on this, the the problem is that the the more the migration happens,
the the more the migration happens, uh the harder everything becomes. And
uh the harder everything becomes. And the ethnationalists are clearly they
the ethnationalists are clearly they have reached back
have reached back seen that this was left behind. They
seen that this was left behind. They don't realize that in one respect in
don't realize that in one respect in particular it was left behind for a very
particular it was left behind for a very good reason.
good reason. But
But they are on to one thing which is yes
they are on to one thing which is yes there is obviously a difference between
there is obviously a difference between those of us who can say us about our
those of us who can say us about our forebears
forebears >> and our country and somebody arriving in
>> and our country and somebody arriving in the last generation
the last generation who does not have that
who does not have that >> well I think
>> well I think >> reference to us we our history when we
>> reference to us we our history when we fought the Napoleonic wars when we our
fought the Napoleonic wars when we our ancestors laid down their lives in two
ancestors laid down their lives in two world wars when we did this when we
world wars when we did this when we they obviously don't have that any any
they obviously don't have that any any more than I mean some of them will some
more than I mean some of them will some of them will elect to do it I mean you
of them will elect to do it I mean you know um but they obviously wouldn't have
know um but they obviously wouldn't have that again sorry to belabor the point
that again sorry to belabor the point but any more than I would be able to say
but any more than I would be able to say we about um
we about um 19th century uprising in India if I
19th century uprising in India if I lived in India Yeah,
lived in India Yeah, >> this is the thing I think about that
>> this is the thing I think about that gets lost in the ethnicity debate, which
gets lost in the ethnicity debate, which is that I mean even the fact that we
is that I mean even the fact that we talk about ethnic minorities implies
talk about ethnic minorities implies that they are not the ethnic majority
that they are not the ethnic majority and the ethnic majority at least for now
and the ethnic majority at least for now >> is English and and part of that is
>> is English and and part of that is ancestry. But there are parts of that
ancestry. But there are parts of that that are um more alienable things that
that are um more alienable things that people um can integrate into the
people um can integrate into the culture, the language, but not the
culture, the language, but not the ancestry. and the ancestry, you know, it
ancestry. and the ancestry, you know, it does it does mean something. But what
does it does mean something. But what would you say to those who say, you
would you say to those who say, you know, it's not enough to just stop it
know, it's not enough to just stop it now. We have to reverse it in some way.
now. We have to reverse it in some way. All of this talk of remigration.
All of this talk of remigration. Obviously, there are some people like
Obviously, there are some people like Steve Laws who would deport someone like
Steve Laws who would deport someone like Andrew Gold, but then on the other side
Andrew Gold, but then on the other side of the spectrum, you have
of the spectrum, you have >> Steve Law. I don't know. It doesn't
>> Steve Law. I don't know. It doesn't matter.
matter. >> You've been in America too long,
>> You've been in America too long, Douglas. You've missed you've missed the
Douglas. You've missed you've missed the uh the latest on the far right. But um
uh the latest on the far right. But um you have these people who would deport
you have these people who would deport Jews. They would deport anybody who
Jews. They would deport anybody who doesn't have any English ancestry. And
doesn't have any English ancestry. And then on the other side, you have people
then on the other side, you have people who might say we should deport illegal
who might say we should deport illegal migrants. We should deport those who
migrants. We should deport those who perhaps have come here and been entirely
perhaps have come here and been entirely dependent on the state. People who
dependent on the state. People who really should never have been given
really should never have been given citizenship. People like um uh um Abu
citizenship. People like um uh um Abu Allah Abdul Fata uh recently in the
Allah Abdul Fata uh recently in the news.
news. >> Oh, he can go sling. Where where do you
>> Oh, he can go sling. Where where do you stand on the question of remigration?
stand on the question of remigration? >> Well, this is where this is this the
>> Well, this is where this is this the conversation only comes up because it's
conversation only comes up because it's where our politicians have gotten us to,
where our politicians have gotten us to, isn't it? Um, look, I would just say in
isn't it? Um, look, I would just say in the best way to approach all of this is
the best way to approach all of this is to is and I I say this as an offering
to is and I I say this as an offering to, you know, any political party to
to, you know, any political party to just consider.
just consider. I think you have to admit that ethnicity
I think you have to admit that ethnicity matters a lot but that it cannot be
matters a lot but that it cannot be absolutely everything
absolutely everything and if you allow that breathing hole in
and if you allow that breathing hole in the ice
the ice then you won't go towards some kind of
then you won't go towards some kind of different horror.
different horror. um we have to acknowledge that that
um we have to acknowledge that that ethnicity does matter in order not to
ethnicity does matter in order not to allow in the people who believe it's
allow in the people who believe it's everything.
everything. And so that's the way I would try to if
And so that's the way I would try to if I was a politician
I was a politician that's how I would try to address that.
that's how I would try to address that. You got to leave the breathing hole in
You got to leave the breathing hole in the ice for the person who deeply loves
the ice for the person who deeply loves the country and wants to contribute to
the country and wants to contribute to it and is of the country by now
it and is of the country by now but you know there's one that is a um
but you know there's one that is a um one that's on my mind all the time which
one that's on my mind all the time which is you know and nobody ever says this by
is you know and nobody ever says this by the way and I I um you have to know the
the way and I I um you have to know the songs of the country for instance
songs of the country for instance do you remember in the 199 90s uh John
do you remember in the 199 90s uh John Redwood uh was the minister for Wal. I
Redwood uh was the minister for Wal. I don't know. I suddenly obsessed by Wales
don't know. I suddenly obsessed by Wales today. But um John Redwood was the
today. But um John Redwood was the minister for Wales in the lamentable
minister for Wales in the lamentable John Major government and um he was on
John Major government and um he was on stage during the conference and the and
stage during the conference and the and they did the Welsh national anthem and
they did the Welsh national anthem and John Redwood famously stood on stage. He
John Redwood famously stood on stage. He obviously didn't know it and he sort of
obviously didn't know it and he sort of went
went and it was huge news at the time and it
and it was huge news at the time and it went on and on and it haunted him that
went on and on and it haunted him that he should be on the stage and not be
he should be on the stage and not be able to sing the Welsh national anthem I
able to sing the Welsh national anthem I think in Welsh.
think in Welsh. How did we go from there in the 1990s
How did we go from there in the 1990s to for instance there being people like
to for instance there being people like the former first minister of Scotland
the former first minister of Scotland who at the coronation
who at the coronation and I think maybe the funeral of the
and I think maybe the funeral of the late queen
late queen could not join in the hymns. Nobody by
could not join in the hymns. Nobody by the way noticed nobody I'm interested in
the way noticed nobody I'm interested in this puffiness because nobody said
this puffiness because nobody said anything but if the first minister of
anything but if the first minister of Scotland and his wife cannot join in the
Scotland and his wife cannot join in the hymns of the coronation because they do
hymns of the coronation because they do not know the hymns that that may seem to
not know the hymns that that may seem to some people to be a a prejudiced thing
some people to be a a prejudiced thing to say or a um a finikity or penicity
to say or a um a finikity or penicity thing to say. Many people I suppose
thing to say. Many people I suppose don't learn hymns anymore but I kind of
don't learn hymns anymore but I kind of think you should you know you should
think you should you know you should know the songs of the country let let
know the songs of the country let let alone if you're going to try to lead a
alone if you're going to try to lead a part of it. So where did how in 30 years
part of it. So where did how in 30 years did we go from that's really outrageous
did we go from that's really outrageous to fine by me
to fine by me >> and on a much more serious one by the
>> and on a much more serious one by the way with the latter.
way with the latter. Um and it's simply that we have conceded
Um and it's simply that we have conceded that
that you can kind of choose to be of us or
you can kind of choose to be of us or you can choose not to be. And I I I I
you can choose not to be. And I I I I think that's a recipe for disaster.
think that's a recipe for disaster. Always did, always will.
Always did, always will. >> There is a there has been this
>> There is a there has been this reemergence of uh Christianity in the in
reemergence of uh Christianity in the in in within politics. And maybe some of
in within politics. And maybe some of this is a response to Islam's presence
this is a response to Islam's presence in politics. Some of this is, you know,
in politics. Some of this is, you know, maybe it's a sort of authentic attempt
maybe it's a sort of authentic attempt to reclaim the foundations of our
to reclaim the foundations of our culture. People were very upset when
culture. People were very upset when they saw Sadi Khn um muttering along and
they saw Sadi Khn um muttering along and not properly singing Christmas carols.
not properly singing Christmas carols. >> Yeah, that's another example of it.
>> Yeah, that's another example of it. Yeah. do you think of um the emerging
Yeah. do you think of um the emerging Christian nationalism which I think is
Christian nationalism which I think is different from just simply trying to um
different from just simply trying to um reclaim and revive the the Christian
reclaim and revive the the Christian roots of our society. How how important
roots of our society. How how important do you think Christianity is to British
do you think Christianity is to British politics?
politics? >> Well, I mean um it's
>> Well, I mean um it's >> and society generally it it is has been
>> and society generally it it is has been the water in which we swim. I mean it's
the water in which we swim. I mean it's it's our ocean, you know. Um
it's our ocean, you know. Um and most people in Britain don't realize
and most people in Britain don't realize that you know I mean now thank goodness
that you know I mean now thank goodness you know there have been distinguished
you know there have been distinguished figures like uh the historian Tom
figures like uh the historian Tom Holland Larry Seeden top and others
Holland Larry Seeden top and others who've written about this and popularize
who've written about this and popularize the fact that you know what we don't
the fact that you know what we don't realize is that we live in a Christian
realize is that we live in a Christian culture whether we're Christian or not
culture whether we're Christian or not and whether or not we notice it or not
and whether or not we notice it or not what we have is the inheritance of the
what we have is the inheritance of the Bible really that's what I mean if if
Bible really that's what I mean if if our society had been based on the um
our society had been based on the um pananishad or the the the the Quran or
pananishad or the the the the Quran or anything else our society would just be
anything else our society would just be very very different and um people can at
very very different and um people can at least accept that. I think what's I
least accept that. I think what's I think uh there is something I I said
think uh there is something I I said sorry to sound like I keep saying I said
sorry to sound like I keep saying I said this would happen but
this would happen but >> you've been saying a lot would happen
>> you've been saying a lot would happen that's happened
that's happened >> again I said this would happen that in
>> again I said this would happen that in response to
response to the sort of protection of Islam more
the sort of protection of Islam more people would notice uh um that they
people would notice uh um that they needed strong um armory themselves and I
needed strong um armory themselves and I always said that I thought it was
always said that I thought it was inevitable that there would be uh a
inevitable that there would be uh a return of Christianity in some form.
return of Christianity in some form. >> So Rusty Reno calls the return of the
>> So Rusty Reno calls the return of the strong gods.
strong gods. >> The return of the strong gods. I think
>> The return of the strong gods. I think that's inevitable. And so in a way it's
that's inevitable. And so in a way it's sort of no point in it's just it's just
sort of no point in it's just it's just obviously going to happen. And the young
obviously going to happen. And the young people who are doing it, I I completely
people who are doing it, I I completely understand it. Um, uh, it requires, if I
understand it. Um, uh, it requires, if I say so myself, considerable dexterity
say so myself, considerable dexterity and permanent pain to dance on the edge
and permanent pain to dance on the edge of faith as somebody like I do. I think
of faith as somebody like I do. I think it's inevitable that maybe if I was, you
it's inevitable that maybe if I was, you know, my younger self growing up now, it
know, my younger self growing up now, it would I would do this as well. But I
would I would do this as well. But I mean, again, it's people going back
mean, again, it's people going back looking at what's left be what's been
looking at what's left be what's been left behind and seeing whether it should
left behind and seeing whether it should have been left behind. And I think it's
have been left behind. And I think it's eminently understandable that people
eminently understandable that people would go and see that our Christian
would go and see that our Christian faith had been left behind and try to
faith had been left behind and try to revivify it. Um
revivify it. Um uh that has some problems of its own.
uh that has some problems of its own. One is and you see this for instance in
One is and you see this for instance in the Catholic converts particularly in
the Catholic converts particularly in America is they're very illlettered in
America is they're very illlettered in their own faith. I mean I I'm I I know
their own faith. I mean I I'm I I know more about the Catholic faith than most
more about the Catholic faith than most of them that I come across. I find
of them that I come across. I find they're indoctrinated into a kind and
they're indoctrinated into a kind and indoctrinated into a hardcore form of
indoctrinated into a hardcore form of and I know what Catholic converts are
and I know what Catholic converts are like. I've been around them all my life.
like. I've been around them all my life. I know what happens. I know they become
I know what happens. I know they become preachy. I know they become highly
preachy. I know they become highly moralistic for a time and um then they
moralistic for a time and um then they sort of gradually pretend they weren't
sort of gradually pretend they weren't that they move and when they you know
that they move and when they you know anyway I know how these people I know
anyway I know how these people I know what it's going to be like. I've seen it
what it's going to be like. I've seen it all
all a million times happening. Um and I
a million times happening. Um and I think it's completely understandable.
think it's completely understandable. I I would like for instance to I would
I I would like for instance to I would like the Church of England to be a uh
like the Church of England to be a uh I would like
I would like >> for good rather than evil.
>> for good rather than evil. >> I would I I would like the church to
>> I would I I would like the church to preach the faith. Uh um that's all. Um
preach the faith. Uh um that's all. Um but yes, I mean it's in this is
but yes, I mean it's in this is inevitable because if you if you if if
inevitable because if you if you if if you have this societal challenge which
you have this societal challenge which we've had for the last 25 years with a
we've had for the last 25 years with a strong god being pushed at us, you you
strong god being pushed at us, you you you you are going to have to have strong
you you are going to have to have strong gods in return. I I just would say
well may I say two things. One is be careful
careful and don't repeat mistakes in theology
and don't repeat mistakes in theology that our forebears made.
that our forebears made. Try to be really learned about the
Try to be really learned about the history of the faith.
history of the faith. And the second thing is you know one of
And the second thing is you know one of the one of the things I I mold over a
the one of the things I I mold over a lot in the strange death of Europe is
lot in the strange death of Europe is what do you do? You can't force faith.
what do you do? You can't force faith. the the our country, this country
the the our country, this country learned that the hard way.
learned that the hard way. You you cannot force faith. You cannot
You you cannot force faith. You cannot make people believe. So what should
make people believe. So what should one's proper attitude toward that be? I
one's proper attitude toward that be? I would say you see that it is by living
would say you see that it is by living living by example. That would be how I
living by example. That would be how I would think that a Christian
would think that a Christian would would would live and best operate
would would would live and best operate in this complicated field. Um as Roger
in this complicated field. Um as Roger Scrutin said in our last discussion uh
Scrutin said in our last discussion uh um in I don't know the year he died he
um in I don't know the year he died he said at the end of it he said you know
said at the end of it he said you know he said it's we're we're like the
he said it's we're we're like the Christians in the catacombs and we have
Christians in the catacombs and we have to keep the light burning down there. I
to keep the light burning down there. I don't think actually we are in our
don't think actually we are in our certainty now like the Christians and
certainty now like the Christians and the catacombs but if you do but people
the catacombs but if you do but people should keep the faith alive and practice
should keep the faith alive and practice it and I I I mean I think at the very
it and I I I mean I think at the very least you know my own attitude is you
least you know my own attitude is you have to be in dialogue with the faith
have to be in dialogue with the faith you have to be in communion with it in
you have to be in communion with it in the nonliteral sense. So, you've been in
the nonliteral sense. So, you've been in America for quite some time now, living
America for quite some time now, living there, and I think it's fair to say you
there, and I think it's fair to say you are solidly transatlantic. Uh, now um th
are solidly transatlantic. Uh, now um th this issue of uh Christianity,
this issue of uh Christianity, civilization, free speech, migration,
civilization, free speech, migration, all of that sort of civilizational
all of that sort of civilizational package has become very important to
package has become very important to this particular administration, United
this particular administration, United States.
States. Do you think that those issues have
Do you think that those issues have become one of the most significant
become one of the most significant diplomatic
diplomatic um issues in the special relationship?
um issues in the special relationship? And would you welcome American
And would you welcome American interference in our politics if it were
interference in our politics if it were to help us change things around?
to help us change things around? >> Well, I mean, America's always
>> Well, I mean, America's always interfering in our politics in Britain
interfering in our politics in Britain and and we try to interfere in theirs.
and and we try to interfere in theirs. I It's always so funny what what people
I It's always so funny what what people regard as interference. interference is
regard as interference. interference is things that one doesn't like. Um uh um
things that one doesn't like. Um uh um ally alliance is the things you like. Um
ally alliance is the things you like. Um yeah, I mean I I I'm I'm pleased that
yeah, I mean I I I'm I'm pleased that the administration in DC regards free
the administration in DC regards free speech in the UK as being a matter of
speech in the UK as being a matter of concern for them.
concern for them. Um
Um um I'm pleased they're concerned. You
um I'm pleased they're concerned. You know they sometimes people well always
know they sometimes people well always everyone in the UK and Europe
everyone in the UK and Europe misunderstands Trump Trumpism the Trump
misunderstands Trump Trumpism the Trump administration and so on. But I'm
administration and so on. But I'm pleased that they want our societies to
pleased that they want our societies to remain recognizable and what we have
remain recognizable and what we have been. They want their allies to remain
been. They want their allies to remain their allies. And that's not just for
their allies. And that's not just for strategic reasons. It's actually it it
strategic reasons. It's actually it it goes very deep with with the president
goes very deep with with the president in particular.
in particular. His his his love for Britain is is very
His his his love for Britain is is very very deep and he wants Britain to remain
very deep and he wants Britain to remain Britain. You know that's really I think
Britain. You know that's really I think obviously you know the case and um
obviously you know the case and um that's
that's I I'm delighted that's the case. I'm
I I'm delighted that's the case. I'm much rather that than a anti-British
much rather that than a anti-British administration in DC. you've uh
administration in DC. you've uh described yourself as something of a a
described yourself as something of a a mind sweeper when it comes to stepping
mind sweeper when it comes to stepping on all of all of the cultural big
on all of all of the cultural big cultural landmines.
cultural landmines. I think probably remigration is one of
I think probably remigration is one of the big landmines and we've obviously
the big landmines and we've obviously seen race class, you've stepped on all
seen race class, you've stepped on all of those. What do you think in the
of those. What do you think in the coming five years, 10 years will be the
coming five years, 10 years will be the the next big landmine?
the next big landmine? Yeah, I should still when I say that I'm
Yeah, I should still when I say that I'm the analogy. I think I use it in the
the analogy. I think I use it in the band as a crowds where I say that I I'm
band as a crowds where I say that I I'm I regard for some mad insane reason. I
I regard for some mad insane reason. I regard one of my jobs in life as
regard one of my jobs in life as clearing the minefield for other people
clearing the minefield for other people to cross it safely themselves. I don't
to cross it safely themselves. I don't know where I decided to
know where I decided to >> I imagine you walking across like
>> I imagine you walking across like Princess Diana
Princess Diana >> with her little uh press jacket on a hel
>> with her little uh press jacket on a hel analogy but um uh I was thinking more
analogy but um uh I was thinking more Arnold Schwarzenegger um uh I no my
Arnold Schwarzenegger um uh I no my friend Eric Weinstein once said it's so
friend Eric Weinstein once said it's so interesting Douglas watching you
interesting Douglas watching you pogo sticking across no man's around.
pogo sticking across no man's around. I love that image. No, what I do what I
I love that image. No, what I do what I if I of course if I trod on all the
if I of course if I trod on all the mines then I would have been blown up
mines then I would have been blown up and I would not uh have a career. I
and I would not uh have a career. I think I think what I've tried to do is
think I think what I've tried to do is simply to set off the mines in advance
simply to set off the mines in advance in order that people can cross. That's
in order that people can cross. That's what I said is my self-pointed task in
what I said is my self-pointed task in the madness of crowds.
the madness of crowds. >> So what's the next set off?
>> So what's the next set off? >> I think the remigration one is obviously
>> I think the remigration one is obviously an issue. I mean that that's very
an issue. I mean that that's very important by the way and I think people
important by the way and I think people in Britain should really be aware
in Britain should really be aware particularly politicians should be aware
particularly politicians should be aware none of this is impossible.
none of this is impossible. Uh President Trump has shown that uh you
Uh President Trump has shown that uh you can
can deport illegal criminals who broke into
deport illegal criminals who broke into your country and then committed crimes.
your country and then committed crimes. You can do it
You can do it >> and it is reasonable to do so.
>> and it is reasonable to do so. >> Yes. Unbelievable. It's not like, oh,
>> Yes. Unbelievable. It's not like, oh, this person broke all of our laws by
this person broke all of our laws by breaking into our country and then he
breaking into our country and then he raped a bunch of people. Why not? Let's
raped a bunch of people. Why not? Let's keep him.
keep him. Doesn't have to be the case. You can
Doesn't have to be the case. You can deport deport deport.
deport deport deport. >> And you can just ignore international
>> And you can just ignore international law.
law. >> Well, it's it's the whole intern Well,
>> Well, it's it's the whole intern Well, let's not get
let's not get a whole other thing. No, you are allowed
a whole other thing. No, you are allowed to do things for your survival. You are.
to do things for your survival. You are. Everyone is
Everyone is we in Britain for our survival are
we in Britain for our survival are allowed to deport illegal criminals. We
allowed to deport illegal criminals. We are allowed to do that. We are allowed
are allowed to do that. We are allowed to turn around people who are breaking
to turn around people who are breaking all of our laws even by just entering.
all of our laws even by just entering. We do not have to pay for hotels that we
We do not have to pay for hotels that we could not afford to live in night after
could not afford to live in night after night for people who've broken in our
night for people who've broken in our country to live in. No, we don't have to
country to live in. No, we don't have to do any of this crap. We can stop doing
do any of this crap. We can stop doing it. We can reverse it and we can send
it. We can reverse it and we can send the illegal criminals to start with
the illegal criminals to start with back.
back. Donald Trump is showing that you can do
Donald Trump is showing that you can do that in America.
that in America. And I know people obsess about but it's
And I know people obsess about but it's it's not easy. And that's where those
it's not easy. And that's where those far-right people, you know, um who who
far-right people, you know, um who who the ethnationalists and things always
the ethnationalists and things always underestimate it. Um, but it it's not
underestimate it. Um, but it it's not easy ju just to do the the the thing
easy ju just to do the the the thing that Trump is doing. I mean, he has to
that Trump is doing. I mean, he has to deport
deport the best the best days of deport
the best the best days of deport deportations of illegals. If he does it
deportations of illegals. If he does it for the rest of this term and his
for the rest of this term and his successor does it, I has to do it I
successor does it, I has to do it I think at the highest rate daily for the
think at the highest rate daily for the first two or three years of his term.
first two or three years of his term. Then you reverse the illegal migration
Then you reverse the illegal migration of the Biden years.
of the Biden years. >> Just the Biden years. just the Biden
>> Just the Biden years. just the Biden years.
years. So, um but that doesn't mean it's
So, um but that doesn't mean it's impossible.
impossible. We cannot fall into the oni of saying
We cannot fall into the oni of saying nothing can be done.
nothing can be done. >> Do you think that we will do you think
>> Do you think that we will do you think that refor we'll have a reformed
that refor we'll have a reformed government that will be willing to take
government that will be willing to take those steps?
those steps? >> I don't know. I mean, we'll see. I I
>> I don't know. I mean, we'll see. I I when Farage first said, you know, it's
when Farage first said, you know, it's impossible, I was disappointed in that
impossible, I was disappointed in that because, you know, Donald Trump was
because, you know, Donald Trump was showing it's possible.
showing it's possible. Um, we'll see. There's going to be a
Um, we'll see. There's going to be a wild ride ahead.
wild ride ahead. >> Do you think um so we've throughout this
>> Do you think um so we've throughout this conversation, culture has has come up in
conversation, culture has has come up in with a few threads here and there. Um,
with a few threads here and there. Um, and obviously, um, I think
and obviously, um, I think it seems to me obvious that if you
it seems to me obvious that if you weren't doing this, you have many other
weren't doing this, you have many other loves and there are many other things
loves and there are many other things that you could have been doing if the
that you could have been doing if the world wasn't in the state that it's in.
world wasn't in the state that it's in. >> U, you're very passionate about
>> U, you're very passionate about literature. Your first book was on
literature. Your first book was on Alfred Douglas. Um, music. I know I've
Alfred Douglas. Um, music. I know I've been told that you're a beautiful
been told that you're a beautiful pianist.
pianist. it over the years you have recommended
it over the years you have recommended to me uh many books that I have really
to me uh many books that I have really loved like the leopard by lampusa one of
loved like the leopard by lampusa one of my favorite books now
my favorite books now >> these are fantastic
>> these are fantastic >> I wonder I mean firstly if there are any
>> I wonder I mean firstly if there are any books that you would recommend novels or
books that you would recommend novels or poetry music to listen to to our viewers
poetry music to listen to to our viewers and actually sort of on the on the
and actually sort of on the on the broader point of um of civilization and
broader point of um of civilization and I don't mean this in the grand sense but
I don't mean this in the grand sense but that personal civilization, whether you
that personal civilization, whether you think that civilizing yourself is is
think that civilizing yourself is is fundamental to the future of our
fundamental to the future of our societies. Uh how important you think
societies. Uh how important you think that is and um how you would recommend
that is and um how you would recommend that people civilize themselves.
that people civilize themselves. >> Well, I think it's everything. I mean um
>> Well, I think it's everything. I mean um you know I gave a talk at the wonderful
you know I gave a talk at the wonderful Wolston College in Savannah Georgia last
Wolston College in Savannah Georgia last year where among other things I talked
year where among other things I talked about why one might keep poetry in one's
about why one might keep poetry in one's head why um why having a welladorned
head why um why having a welladorned memory is a good idea
memory is a good idea and as I think I said there in summary
and as I think I said there in summary one of the reasons is is that what you
one of the reasons is is that what you have up here cannot be taken from you
have up here cannot be taken from you you know and That's an enormous um
you know and That's an enormous um comfort among other things. You know,
comfort among other things. You know, this you can take everything else. You
this you can take everything else. You the government can take my liberties if
the government can take my liberties if they want. They can do this, but they
they want. They can do this, but they can't get what's up here.
can't get what's up here. Um and but it's also that you you know
Um and but it's also that you you know you know what your
you know what your you you have to if you're going to make
you you have to if you're going to make any defense or anything, you have to
any defense or anything, you have to know what you love.
know what you love. Um yeah, you're right.
Um yeah, you're right. among my first lovers of music and
among my first lovers of music and literature. And I suppose really
literature. And I suppose really um the thing about music that is so
um the thing about music that is so moving is the way that tonality is set
moving is the way that tonality is set up.
up. Our ear is attuned
Our ear is attuned naturally
naturally to
to to the coming home.
If if I played the first seven notes of the scale going up from C to B,
the scale going up from C to B, you would need me to play the C above
you would need me to play the C above because it must resolve.
And I think that this is this is an extraordinary uh uh gift to
this is an extraordinary uh uh gift to us as a species.
us as a species. And I think one of the things that makes
And I think one of the things that makes me understand or try to understand
me understand or try to understand certainly appreciate the existence of
certainly appreciate the existence of the divine which is that there is some
the divine which is that there is some innate instinct in us that we are going
innate instinct in us that we are going to our home
to our home and music gives us that sense.
and music gives us that sense. Um, an unresolved chord is intolerable.
Um, an unresolved chord is intolerable. It has to resolve. Why? Because the key
It has to resolve. Why? Because the key must return to its home.
must return to its home. And great music, great great music
And great music, great great music always gives you that sense, whether
always gives you that sense, whether it's Bach,
it's Bach, Mozart, Schumann, one of my gods,
Mozart, Schumann, one of my gods, Schubert.
Schubert. um
um or coming more up to date a great great
or coming more up to date a great great composer like Benjamin Britain
composer like Benjamin Britain uh
uh um and there are some great composers
um and there are some great composers working today as well. Um
working today as well. Um so so for me and by the way one of the
so so for me and by the way one of the things I find also very moving about
things I find also very moving about music is that you notice that when
music is that you notice that when people's memories start to go very often
people's memories start to go very often the music goes last.
the music goes last. That's another sort of almost a
That's another sort of almost a god-given sign isn't it? It's it's
god-given sign isn't it? It's it's >> or that it brings them back
>> or that it brings them back >> or it brings them back. It's what an
>> or it brings them back. It's what an extraordinary thing that is that the
extraordinary thing that is that the music the music the sense that the music
music the music the sense that the music leaves us last is something which is a
leaves us last is something which is a very deep sense of mine and and I think
very deep sense of mine and and I think it's telling us something
it's telling us something um probably that this is the the nearest
um probably that this is the the nearest communication we have with the angels in
communication we have with the angels in a way isn't it
a way isn't it >> something that really interests me and
>> something that really interests me and it there seem to be less and less people
it there seem to be less and less people of of of this kind left obviously there
of of of this kind left obviously there there are many many more of them in the
there are many many more of them in the past who were very thoroughly civilized
past who were very thoroughly civilized in the sort of English culture
in the sort of English culture >> is the atmosphere of people's minds as
>> is the atmosphere of people's minds as they go into when they go into politics
they go into when they go into politics what it you know what what it is that is
what it you know what what it is that is furnishing their imaginations their
furnishing their imaginations their sense of them of themselves and what
sense of them of themselves and what they're doing and why they're doing it
they're doing and why they're doing it and actually what their home looks like
and actually what their home looks like what is it that makes their home a home
what is it that makes their home a home >> um and I I wonder for you what you feel
>> um and I I wonder for you what you feel it is that I'm sure there are many
it is that I'm sure there are many things that furnish your mind because
things that furnish your mind because you are one of these people the very
you are one of these people the very very few of them um
very few of them um but when you were sort of emerging into
but when you were sort of emerging into politics as it were and and and
politics as it were and and and the feel the things that motivated you
the feel the things that motivated you to do so that mo the loves that
to do so that mo the loves that motivated you to to come out in defense
motivated you to to come out in defense of our our country and our civilization
of our our country and our civilization what what were those influences what
what what were those influences what what were what was the atmosphere of
what were what was the atmosphere of your mind at that point when you decided
your mind at that point when you decided to to step up and and fight.
to to step up and and fight. >> Uh well,
>> Uh well, I would note by the way that there's a
I would note by the way that there's a disproportionate
disproportionate presence of people who do things like
presence of people who do things like like me who were acculturated in the uh
like me who were acculturated in the uh English uh cathedral and coral
English uh cathedral and coral tradition. For some reason, well, and I
tradition. For some reason, well, and I know the reason is not complicated. Um
know the reason is not complicated. Um uh I was I I embied the great buildings.
uh I was I I embied the great buildings. I I I love churches. I love English
I I I love churches. I love English churches. I'm one of those people like
churches. I'm one of those people like Lin who can't pass one without going in
Lin who can't pass one without going in and wondering who did the rear dolls and
and wondering who did the rear dolls and trying my amateur attempts to understand
trying my amateur attempts to understand the uh the the architecture and the
the uh the the architecture and the additions. Um
additions. Um um you know it's it's it's it's you know
um you know it's it's it's it's you know I sort of think England by England. uh I
I sort of think England by England. uh I know exactly what it is and so I don't
know exactly what it is and so I don't have a you know
have a you know that's one of the reasons why I've never
that's one of the reasons why I've never been really dejected about things
been really dejected about things because
because I know what I I love and I know what I'm
I know what I I love and I know what I'm defending.
defending. Uh you mentioned books uh that's
Uh you mentioned books uh that's obviously a part of it as well and that
obviously a part of it as well and that the literature like the songs of your
the literature like the songs of your country you know matter greatly and the
country you know matter greatly and the great thing about literature is that it
great thing about literature is that it is a borderless world. I mean, you can't
is a borderless world. I mean, you can't stop writers borrowing across borders.
stop writers borrowing across borders. It's what we do. Um, and uh, but you you
It's what we do. Um, and uh, but you you you'd be hardressed to find a greater
you'd be hardressed to find a greater literary tradition in the world than the
literary tradition in the world than the one that we've produced from these
one that we've produced from these islands.
islands. Um, and uh, I just wish people realize
Um, and uh, I just wish people realize it's all there for them
it's all there for them >> to have and to access.
>> to have and to access. And you don't need to do it in a it's
And you don't need to do it in a it's not jingoistic. It's just that it's it's
not jingoistic. It's just that it's it's like I don't there are certain composers
like I don't there are certain composers I just love. Certain writers I just love
I just love. Certain writers I just love and some I love and connect to
and some I love and connect to especially because because their home is
especially because because their home is my home um spiritually historically.
my home um spiritually historically. >> Is there one author that for you stands
>> Is there one author that for you stands out from
out from >> No, there there are too many authors
>> No, there there are too many authors ever to answer that question. Um
ever to answer that question. Um I uh and as I say the the the Republic
I uh and as I say the the the Republic of Letters is genuinely borderless as I
of Letters is genuinely borderless as I I I I can I can be as at home with
I I I can I can be as at home with Stefan Zvage uh as I can be with Dosski
Stefan Zvage uh as I can be with Dosski or uh um Steinbeck or you know anything
or uh um Steinbeck or you know anything like that. But
like that. But I I think probably from these islands,
I I think probably from these islands, our greatest gift of the world has been
our greatest gift of the world has been our our poets and playwrights. And um
our our poets and playwrights. And um the extent to which that is just waiting
the extent to which that is just waiting there for people to access is
there for people to access is extraordinary to me. I mean Shakespeare
extraordinary to me. I mean Shakespeare alone is enough for an entire lifetime.
alone is enough for an entire lifetime. And you know, um,
we're so lucky. We're so lucky to have him. One of the things you you realize
him. One of the things you you realize as you I suppose I should wrap up, but
as you I suppose I should wrap up, but one of the things you realize as um you
one of the things you realize as um you watch of human events is it's amazing we
watch of human events is it's amazing we have anything at all.
have anything at all. You know, there was a a fire at the
You know, there was a a fire at the Eloscore where we almost lost all of the
Eloscore where we almost lost all of the Elgreos or the the Velasquezs rather
Elgreos or the the Velasquezs rather were there. Staff at the palace were
were there. Staff at the palace were throwing these canvases out of the
throwing these canvases out of the windows. We might have lost
windows. We might have lost most of the great Velasquez. If the uh
most of the great Velasquez. If the uh the staff in the palace, the Aliscodial
the staff in the palace, the Aliscodial had not risen to the moment. There are
had not risen to the moment. There are whole manuscripts and books we're so
whole manuscripts and books we're so lucky to have which people tried to take
lucky to have which people tried to take from us and keep from us. Grossman
from us and keep from us. Grossman Soljaniten
Soljaniten uh endless numbers of people and we have
uh endless numbers of people and we have them
them >> and uh and um and it's all just waiting
>> and uh and um and it's all just waiting for us and
for us and we can't just just just just moan.
we can't just just just just moan. We have to remember our good fortune,
We have to remember our good fortune, you know, but that the good fortune
you know, but that the good fortune is in part that our forebears set it up
is in part that our forebears set it up in such a way as we have this good
in such a way as we have this good fortune. It's not just luck. It's that
fortune. It's not just luck. It's that people
people of our age and younger,
of our age and younger, not just in wars, but in peace as well,
not just in wars, but in peace as well, went through excruciating pains
went through excruciating pains to preserve
to preserve >> everything.
>> everything. >> The things that haven't been saved by
>> The things that haven't been saved by chance, have been saved by love. I think
chance, have been saved by love. I think that's a perfect um place to end and an
that's a perfect um place to end and an invitation also to our um viewers to to
invitation also to our um viewers to to get stuck in and make the effort. So,
get stuck in and make the effort. So, thank you so much, Douglas Murray, for
thank you so much, Douglas Murray, for for joining us.
for joining us. >> Thank you.
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