YouTube Transcript:
Your Love Is Not Enough To Change A Borderline! with Dr. Peter Salerno @DrPeterSalerno

Skip watching entire videos - get the full transcript, search for keywords, and copy with one click.

AutoDub

Understand YouTube Foreign Videos

Immersive YouTube Voice Translation

Break language barriers, embrace global quality content

Solve Foreign Video Barriers Instantly

Video Transcript

Today I had my friend Dr. Peter Serno

back on the program and as a change of

pace we talked all about borderline

personality disorder. We talked about

splitting. We talked about what it's

like to have borderline parents to be in

a romantic relationship with a

borderline. And we even got introduced

to Dr. Serno's famous cat. So make sure

you look out for that, too. But with

that, I hope you enjoy my conversation

with Dr. Serno as much as I did.

All right. Today my guest is again Dr.

Peter Serno. How are you today, Peter?

I'm doing well. How are you, Jared?

Living the dream over here. Always a

pleasure to have you on. Yeah, it's a

pleasure to be here. I do have a a

little guest who's going to make a debut

because I know that she made a

auditory appearance

um on our last interview. So, this is

Winter. She's the one who was making the noise.

noise.

I love her. She looks exactly like my

mom's cat, too. She's got one named

Shale. the same breed it looks like. So

anyway, she wanted to introduce herself

to the people who heard her in the

background from our last interview. She

was very popular in that one. A lot of

comments were talking about her. I know

it's actually lunchtime for her, so we

might hear her again once she realizes

that. So that's awesome. Now, today to

warn people, we probably will get under

some people's skin today because we're

going to talk about

BPD. And there seems to be a lot of push

back about people who talk about BPD,

especially if it's BPD women, too. And

people, and I think this is a good thing

to go over to start with it, people seem

to outsource all of the abusive

behaviors in cluster B to narcissism or

like antisocial personality disorder,

but no one feels comfortable telling the

truth about border lines.

Yeah, I would agree with that. And I

think, you know, the the the prevalence

estimates when it comes to men and women

are actually very similar. They're very

close. I think the latest is like 46%

men, so 54% women. So, it's it's almost

down. It's it's pretty close in in

in being equal. And also, those can be

based on clinical populations

um and general population. So, it's not

necessarily 100% accurate. Those are

obviously always estimates. But when I

talk about BPD, I'm I'm not I'm talking

about the men and the women. So I think

that's also important because it it

matters for our discussion today because

some of the way that it presents it

makes a difference in in in the sex as

well as far as uh behavior. Um but we'll

we'll we'll certainly get into that. Um

and I think to start also with

narcissism is is there an equal amount

would you say of male and female

narcissists or pretty close? I

personally think that that's the case,

but but if we're going on the same um

the same uh

prevalence, I'd say that it's been

documented that it's like typically 75%

male, 25% female that that it's

documented as. Um but I don't believe

that these are I don't believe that

psychological traits have anything to do

with sex or gender. I believe that they

have to do with our human DNA. So, I

believe that for the most part, they're

probably equal across the board.

Um, you know, I know that um with when

it comes to uh histrionic personality

disorder, for example, which is in the

same category, same classification of as

borderline narcissism and and

antisocial, it's less spoken about, but

the the prevalence has been estimated to

be right down the middle. It's 50/50

among men and women. Um, I think there's

more antisocial offenders who have been

caught that are male, so that prevalence

is also a bit skewed as a result of

that. Um, but there certainly are

female and male psychopaths and

antisocial personalities, right? And

that's how I've seen it, too. I've

always thought there's a pretty close

amount of male and female narcissists

and male and female border lines, too,

for that matter. That's how I've seen it

because it's not a gendered thing. And

I've heard a doctor say the other day,

some people think narcissism and

borderline are gendered expressions of

the same dysfunction. And I don't agree

with that at all. Yeah, I disagree with

that completely. There's no empirical

evidence to support that claim. There's

also I heard uh somebody sent me a video

the other day related to um BPD being

solely caused by uh exposure to

narcissists. And so it's like the it's

like the inversion of it in a way and

where it's caused by being around

narcissists and then it's this

self-directed assault or attack um where

you self-destruct as a result of being extremely

extremely

um uh warm and empathic and nurturing

and then the narcissist just sort of

stealing all of that from you. And

that's also categorically untrue.

There's no evidence to support that

claim. Yeah, I saw I think I saw what

you're talking about. Dr. Orion Teraban,

I broke it down because he was saying

something very similar and he said a lot

of things about many things I disagreed

with and I broke that down too. He was

saying, yeah, male and female, male

narcissist, female border lines. Now,

one thing I've heard about border lines

is some women who have given me push

back, they said it's a misogynistic

diagnosis. What would you say to the

people who say that?

Well, again, that's 100% not true

because we just talked about the

prevalence being equal.

Um, we're not talking

about women or men behaving in a certain

way because they're men or women. We're

talking about psychological traits that

all human beings uh possess and that

some human beings depending on uh

differences in the DNA sequence and

variations of that um have more or less

of as a result of a lot of random

effects. Right?

So, I you know, you know me as somebody

who promotes and supports um behavioral

genetics and this kind of missing piece

that's been dismissed or neglected

outright in in favor of environmental

determinism in psychology. And I'm

trying to, you know, promote that. Well,

we're missing something that's the most

influential component and that's been

ignored um at least in popular media in

a lot of research, too. But we're

talking about um traits that everybody

who is a human being shares. And then

when we talk about personality dis

disorder, we're talking about variations

in the trait expression that are on the

highly deficient end of the continuum or

highly severely uh excessive end of the

continuum. And that's

really what we're talking about when we

refer to disorder. So, it's not that

only border lines have impulsivity and

aggression. It's that the way they have

it and the amount that they have it, the

severity, the intensity, the frequency

of the expression would make somebody uh

borderline and and somebody who is

somewhere in the middle would be more

what we refer to as neurotypical, right?

So, we're not talking about you have

these things that no one else has and

that's why you have a problem. What

we're talking about is the intensity,

the severity, the frequency, the amount,

right? We're talking about quantity, if

you will, not quality, not either or.

It's how much of or how little of

something. And you put those traits

together and you create

um based on

research, 50 plus years of research that

shows how these traits are heritable and

they're across the world. You know,

they're they're not just happening in

certain environments, they're happening

in all environments. Um, that's really

what I'm talking about when I when I

speak of these disorders is is trait

deficiencies and trait excesses that

create enduring pervasive patterns of

behavior across the lifespan and that

are highly inflexible.

Where do you think the confusion begins

with BPD?

So, I mean BPD has its own confusing

history in in psychology and in

psychological literature and in research.

research.

Originally the term borderline comes

from the and this is no longer the case.

So I want to emphasize that but it comes

from the idea that certain individuals

ride the borderline between neuro being

neurotic and then venturing into

psychosis. Okay, that's the original

term for border. That's the borderline

neurosis to psychosis. And so it used to

be conceptualized as a psychotic

disorder where like an like a highly

neurotic person enters into these stages

of becoming psychotic. And so it was

conceptualized in a way that we no

longer conceptualize it. There's still

popular literature that that um

describes borderline as like a psychotic

anxiety, you know, um but that's just

that's no longer the case. I mean, we've

done enough research now to know that

that's really not what it is. Not all

people with borderline u uh pathology

um are considered psychotic first of all

and there's a lot more to borderline

pathology than neurosis because we're

all neurotic to a degree. We all have

internal conflicts. That's the

definition of neurosis is someone having

an internal conflict. Um we have now

seen the biological underpinnings of

these disorders. We've seen um

neurotransmission um contributions.

We've seen hormonal contributions. I

mean, it's an it's the entire operating

system, you know, it's not it's multiple

systems are at play here. So, to say

that it's just something um where these

people are just really really highly

neurotic and then they get psychotic

from time to time, it's just it's

oversimplified and highly inaccurate.

So, so the history of what it is, first

of all,

um confuses people. And then also um

there's been a lot of research recently

to suggest that what we have um

historically considered to be the

vulnerable narcissism subtype of of NPD

is really borderline personality because

90% identical in trait facets and

domains and in criterion variables. So

we're we're just learning a lot more

about these things. I would say that um

vulnerable narcissism has been um

applied to men historically who are

actually borderline in presentation. And

then um BPD has been almost exclusively

um inferred to be a a female issue, but

that's just ignorant and incorrect.

Yeah. And like I agree with that, too.

There's plenty of male border lines. I

had thought I had something similar to

it at a time as well because and we kind

of went over this last time a little bit

too, but I I am someone that is probably

on the spectrum and since it was

undiagnosed, I don't it turned into

something that looks similar in my eyes

to BPD, but it probably wasn't exactly

that. It can just maybe appear similar,

especially when there's addictions

involved. But what are the causes of BPD?

BPD?

So, first of all, there is this idea

that life adversity

um is sufficient to cause a personality disorder

disorder

and that's just not true. Okay, life

adversity by itself cannot explain the

development of a personality disorder.

What we are understanding now is um some

people are more vulnerable to developing

personality disorders based on their

temperament. And our temperament um is

sort of a

um it's not entirely fixed. It's not

like completely hardwired, but it's very

very highly influential to our

consistent patterns of behavior and

thinking and feeling perceiving across

our lifespan. So, and our temperament is

um something that we are born with,

which means that it's something that um

has developed before we're born if we're

born with it. Right? So that factor is

highly important to understanding that

like we'll say difficult, challenging or

problematic temperaments um make people

more vulnerable one to adverse life

experiences and also make people more

vulnerable to to personality pathology

because if you have a certain kind of

temperament, your perception of your

environment and then your responses to

it are going to be highly influenced by

that temperament.

And by those biological underpinnings,

the same environment for two different

people is going to be perceived and

responded to

differently very much depending on their

their temperament, which is sort of like

their startup material before any

environmental adversity. So, right. And

that's something you mentioned in your

book too about the nature and nurture of

narcissism that those inherent traits

people are going to seek out

environments because of those inherent

traits. And the example you used was

introversion. If you're introverted,

yeah, you're going to gravitate to

things that are going to make your

introversion, you're going to be more

comfortable with it. And the same thing

applies to these personality disorders

and the inherent traits involved in

them. Correct? And so when we talk about

we when we talk about disorder, it's

really important to understand that

there's no such thing as um like a a bad

gene or a disordered gene or um it's

just variations in it. Right? So again,

we want to I want to be clear some of

the traits that are typical in somebody

who has borderline personality and this

is not um something that you qualify

like either or. something that you

quantify how much or how less you know.

So when we talk about that there are

varying degrees of

impulsivity, aggression, hostility, uh

neurotic traits, um negative

affectivity. These are these are

straight from diagnostic manuals. I'm

these aren't my opinions. I'm not making

this up. Um, this is all things that

these are all things that have

been understood by

observation, clinical research studies,

replicated studies. It's just the way it

is. These aren't good or bad, right or

wrong. I'm just explaining these are the

facts. There are certain traits that we

associate with borderline personality.

There are certain traits we associate

with narcissism. There are certain

traits we associate with antisocial. Um,

so we want to look at the severity, the

frequency, the intensity of these

particular traits in individuals because

it's going to inform us um of what their

personality is like. You know, these are

so I don't know if that answered your

question. It that answers the question.

Now, what would you say to the people

that say, and people said this to me the

other day, border lines are not abusive.

What would you say to them?

Well, of course, you know, now we have

to define

abuse, but um I've never experienced

somebody who has been related to someone with

with

BPD as describing that they haven't been

abused in some way. Now, I think what

people mean by abuse is not all border

lines are physically violent. A lot of

male border lines are. This is another

um statistic that I'm not making up.

There are more male border lines

incarcerated because of their aggression

and impulsivity than there are

narcissists. So, that surprises people

to hear, but it's because with

borderline aggression and impulsivity,

there is an uncontrollable element to

that. Whereas with

narcissists, they are often so motivated

to save face and create an impression of

themselves that is not true that they

can conceal it enough to where it's

covert. Right? with border lines, they

don't have the mechanism of self-control

because of the dysregulation from all of

the other uh systems I I highlighted

earlier that they literally can't stop

themselves from becoming that violent or

that aggressive and so it gets them in

legal trouble often. Um, more males than

females actually as far as being

incarcerated for that. But that's just a

fact of biology. We're talking again

about aggression and impulsivity. We're

not talking about someone being bad or

good. I'm talk I'm not even I'm not even

creating a um a moral perspective with

these traits. I'm simply stating that

they exist. Aggression and impulsivity

exist in human beings. These individuals

who are diagnosed with BPD have more of

the of that those traits, you know.

So, um, to say that they're not abusive

and and then one of the arguments I get

a lot when I when I talk about BPD is

I'm someone says, "I'm BPD and I've

never heard a fly. I have empathy oozing

out of my pores. It's coursing through

my veins all the time. I could never

hurt. I love animals and anytime I'm

self-destructive, I'm self-destructive

to myself." Okay? To which I would I

would reply, I agree and believe I

believe that about

you. How is

self-destruction not impactful to the

ones who love you? First of all, because

if you are constantly trying to hurt

yourself, kill yourself, that's

tormenting the people who want you to be

alive and who love you. So, that's a

form of abuse is the inability to stop

self-destructing, just like the

inability to stop drinking or taking

drugs, is certainly abusive in a way to

the people who care about you. even if

you're not intentionally trying to harm

them by by the the substance use, it's

you can't deny that it's impacting them,

you know. And um

so this idea that the the that

borderline is exclusively

self-destructive and not other

destructive. There are too many

exceptions to that rule. There are

plenty of borderline individuals who um

have repeated offenses of being

physically violent, destructive,

excessive in a way where it's so

irresponsible that it's affecting the

family system.

Um, I think what people get get worked

up about when we talk about this is

borderlines do have um these periods

where they are no

longer seeing other people as the bad

object. They are seeing themselves as

the bad object and they have an

experience of profound pain and

self-loathing and emptiness that people

can only assume means

that they're

traumatized and so they're not being

abusive. They're just

being reactive to their trauma, right?

Reactive to their pain. That's not

necessarily the whole story. You know,

there there is certainly aspects of that

that can be considered true, but the

idea that um that's the only

reason why they're behaving the way they

behave when they misbehave is because of

trauma, that's

also not true. There's no there's no

evidence of that across the board,

right? And that's what they would want

you to believe. This is all just because

of my trauma. And the other thing I hear

them say a lot is they have these very

plausible explanations and defenses

about why they do what they do. And it's

sneaky because unlike many narcissists,

they'll admit they're borderline.

They'll admit that they're doing this

behavior, but then they have this wild

elaboration of why they do it. And it's

not accountability, though. It's just

this excuse about why they're doing it.

and they don't actually acknowledge the

bad behavior is in there. There's a lot

of perceptual gaps and distortions in

the in the borderline uh personality

profile. Okay? So, I'm not I'm not

singling any particular person out who

has it. Again, there's variations.

There's heterogeneity. So, the the

presentation is, you know, not it's not

one sizefits-all. You know, there's

variations in it. But what's really

important to understand is they draw emotional

emotional

conclusions before they verify facts.

And then when the facts are verified,

they they they stick to their emotional

conclusions. That's something that is

pretty um consistent with somebody who

perceives things uh through the

borderline mind is that there's a lot of

emotional conclusions drawn. But again,

when we're talking about disorder, we're

talking about perceptual gaps and

distortions. So, those aren't always

credible, you know, and we have to

factor that in. It's not an accident,

and I don't mean this as an insult. Um,

I'm a clinician. It's not an accident

that borderline is in the same

classification of disorders as

antisocial and narcissism. It's in

diagnostic manuals because of the

overlapping features. Now, people don't

like that. And there have been again

there have been proposals to remove

borderline from the personality disorder

category and reclassify it as complex

PTSD. And the truth is um in order for

that to happen the cause of the the

presentation would have to be solely

from adverse life experiences like

complex PTSD. There are distinct

differences in complex PTSD and

borderline personality. I can go over

them if you want some of the

distinctions, but they're not the same

disorder. For example, when we talk

about complex PTSD,

um, by the way, I have two cats now

coming at trying to get on camera, so

that's why I'm You can see you can show

them. They'll probably make their way

over here. Uh, so when we're talking

about complex

PTSD, individuals who have

post-traumatic stress do have difficulty

with self-regulation and calming when

they're upset. they have difficulty

grounding. That's related to a specific

um trigger or something that activated

them that is similar to the original

stimuli that traumatized them.

Okay. Borderline personalities have a

profound lack of emotional control all

around. It's not, believe it or not,

it's not just when they are feeling

provoked or triggered. It can happen out

of nowhere. They it can it can it can

manifest based on what's what what their

affect is. And a effect is related to

how pleasant or unpleasant someone feels

throughout the day and how calm or

irritable someone feels throughout the

day. And border lines have negative

affectivity, which means they typically

run unpleasant and irritable even when

they're not being environmentally

triggered. And this is kind of a sad

component to that disorder because

that's not their fault.

But it also informs their perception

throughout the day. So it doesn't really require

require

something like wronging them for them to

get to the point where they're going to

start getting emotionally dregulated.

And I think that's something that a lot

of border lines wouldn't even understand

about themselves. I think they've got it

in their heads that no, it's all just a

reaction. when some when I split, when I

act get really upset, it's because of

what someone else did. And another thing

that's interesting, and Christine Anne

Lawson said this in her book,

Understanding the Borderline Mother,

that they said they'll forget things

that happened when they were in a

different mental state. So depending on

their moods, like wherein if they're in

the black mood and then all of a sudden

they're in a good mood another day, they

forget things that were done when they

were in that other mood. Do you agree

with that? Um I believe that because

they have this um such an extreme

uncontrollable emotion dysregulation

which often involves anger and

aggression. Okay, it's not just fear,

it's anger and aggression. oftent times

they can actually move into these

dissociative states. Now it's referred

to more as like

microcsychosis. So it's not that they're

actually psychotic like a schizophrenic,

but they have these moments of like

losing touch with reality because of how

intense their emotions are and their

traits expression that they can probably

lose some time and then later on they do

what's called a disavow where they deny

the responsibility and the

accountability. they don't remember it

being that big of a deal. And so when

people give them feedback, hey, this

really hurt what you said, they'll say,

I didn't say that or I don't remember it

or I don't think that, you know, that's

exactly how it happened. And I do

believe that there's some sincerity in

that for some people that they have

actually lost access to the memory of

that. And then there's also other border

lines that intentionally accidentally

forget. This is true. and they've

admitted that to me in in my practice,

by the way, after after years of rapport

were built. I've heard astounding

confessions and admissions that I was so

pleased for them to make and I didn't

judge them for it. I commended them for

their sincerity. But sometimes that can

take years to develop the amount of

trust where someone's going to say, "I

did that because I wanted to." Right?

And that's a good step in their healing

there, too. being able to get to that

point of admitting, yeah, I did this

thing with this malicious intent because

it's never about judging them for it.

That doesn't have that doesn't hold any

weight in in clinical practice. What

holds weight is now that you know that

you can do that, we want to make sure

that you stop because it's not even in

your best self-interest to do that

anymore. And they and that makes sense

to them. It's like, you're right. I

don't want to keep blowing up these

relationships. It's not working for me.

Um so now you install the mechanisms to

which they can behave better rather than

going down the rabbit hole of their

trauma history which really doesn't help

uh border lines recover because it's not

a trauma disorder. Um the behavioral

interventions are what really help them

in the beginning is they get a handle on

how they can behave. If they can give up

threatening to kill themselves, their

relationships will improve. And you

don't have to go down why you do that in

the first place with them

because you're wasting precious time at

that point and it really doesn't matter,

you know, to a degree, right? What is

the experience like for someone with a

borderline parent growing up?

Oh, um I think that inevitably results

in complex

PTSD, you know. I think that's the

that's the um that's what happens the

cumulative trauma um of of that

discontinuous inconsistent experience

with somebody because of the dichoto the

the dichomizing and the um the

splitting. There's um so much

ambivalence and uncertainty in the minds

of children who have been raised with

such you know instability and

inconsistency where they can they can be

the a good object an idealized object

and then all of a sudden they become a

devalued bad object like really without

any provocation. I mean it wasn't really

something that they did to to deserve

the the split but that happened so

frequently on a constant basis. multiple

times within a given day. Uh that

they're just kind of torn trying to

figure out how to make sense of of these

these dichomous shifts, right?

I mean, I've heard serial killers that

had a borderline mother and and they've

killed their own mothers in some of

them, too. And because they were the all

bad child. Everything that that

borderline mother didn't like, they

would project that on to the all bad.

All good is a completely different

story. But the all bad one, they and

oftent times they would go through the

ringer. They were put through a lot.

It's it's awful to hear some of those

stories. Yeah, it is. It is. It's

terrible. Yeah. So, it's an awful

dynamic. And what would you say are the

differences between say how a

narcissistic parent acts versus a

borderline parent? So one of the main

components uh of borderline personality

is they they have dichomous thinking. So

black and white all or nothing thinking

and that again has to do with their

traits. You know their traits are are se

severe on those on the continuum. it's

defi highly deficient or highly

excessive and so that doesn't really

leave a lot of room for gray area in

their in their perceptual understanding

of reality. Right? So what happens is

they dichomize. Narcissists dichomize

too, but they

dichotoize in a very rigid and

inflexible way that is b that is putting

them in favor all the time. So the

dichotomy of narcissism is I'm all good,

you're all bad, end of story. That's the

narcissistic dichotomy. They never

redirect that back onto themselves.

Border lines do something called reverse

dichotoizing. So that's actually what

splitting means. And splitting is for

the borderline, they say, "I'm all good,

you're all bad." And then they split and

they go, I'm all bad, now you're all

good. So the

idealization like rapid cycles with the

borderline where you do become the good

object again. With narcissists, you

never are the good object ever again

once they've decided that you let them

down. You know, they may feain like you

are to win favor. They may ingratiate

you from time to time, but in their mind

you they are constantly demeaning you.

Whereas with border lines, there's a sincere

sincere

feeling and belief that you have once

again gotten back on the pedestal in

their eyes, but it's only a matter of

time before they knock the pedestal

down. So, that's one of the main

distinctions is how they dichomize. And

border lines do that reverse dichotomy

that narcissists never do. And you

mentioned splitting. What would

splitting look like in action in a

borderline's life?

Um, I'll give you I can give you an

example from an email I received

recently. I don't I don't want to

diagnose anybody. I don't have to. But,

um, basically I I received this, thank

you for your contributions to this. I'm

so happy. I feel so validated and seen.

And then it was um, so I was the all

good object, right? And then the split

happened when um they signed up for uh

my video library. I offer a video

library with some gated content. And the

I I had mentioned I was going to be

putting something on there. I was going

to upload something on there.

Apparently, I didn't do it in the

sufficient amount of time that they were

pleased with. So then the email

responses came to you falsely advertised.

advertised.

um you know, you got me to sign up for

something and you conned me and then the

here's the here's the kicker where I

became all bad. Um does this mean that

everything you've said online is also [Laughter]

[Laughter]

false? So So now and I'm not poking fun

at that person. I'm sure that they had

some internal conflict related to this,

but the expression of it was impulsive.

It was disproportionate to the thing. It

could have been simply like, "I've been

waiting for this video. It's not

uploaded yet. I want my money back." I

would have been like, "Here's your

refund. I apologize that you were

disappointed. Um, it's taken me longer

than anticipated to put that up."

There's a complete there's these

inferences about me as a result of their

displeasure. And to the extreme, like

now you're just completely discredited,

right? So that's splitting. I was, you

know, they signed on because I was

great. they signed off because I was bad

versus the gray area thing could have

been a collaborative conversation. Hey,

um when are you going to put that video

up? And if so, I would have given them

an extension. And and that's the thing

is that the lack of collaborative

capacity because of that all or nothing

thing. And you know, maybe one day I

will become a good object again in their

eyes. Maybe I'll do a video where they

they're like, "Oh, yeah." And then it

and then it it'll reverse again. And

again, I'm not poking fun. this is just

a real psychological phenomenon that

takes place. And I I wanted to use a

real a real time um experience to

demonstrate it, right? And and that's a

good example because I see that happen a

lot. You people will agree with 99% of

what you say and then all of a sudden

you say one thing they disagree with in

one video and all of a sudden it negates

everything you ever said. you must be

wrong about everything you ever said

because you said this one thing. And

that is a good example of the all all

black, all white. Yeah. And I like what

you said. It it like it really does in

their mind literally not figuratively.

It literally negates everything else

that you had said prior that was that

was credible to them. It it they they

erase that and eject it and now it's

just all that's left is the bad object.

Right. And I think another thing with

border lines is what I've noticed from

my own anecdotal experience, usually

you'll see them have more issues on the

surface. Like there's going to be issues

like addictions, acting out in other

ways, and they're honest about it. A lot

of times they're more open about maybe

their depression, their anxiety, their

and a lot of people with borderline

think they might be bipolar at first or

bipolar too. And then finally when they

get diagnosed, a lot of people can feel

relieved that at least they now know,

okay, this is why I was feeling the way

I was feeling. But it looks like they

have more issues on the surface than it

does for a lot of narcissists. A lot of

narcissists seem to have a better image

they present to the world, but under the

surface of that is where their issues

are. But the border lines, those issues

are usually front and center a lot of

times. Yeah, agreed. because they can't

necessarily um control their emotional

reactions to things and conceal them so

that it's covert. And I will say um 80%

maybe 90% uh border lines have a

comorbid uh condition that's typically

affecting their mood. So it's either a

mood disorder

um like anxiety or depression or even

bipolar. they could have comorbid, you

know, bipolar um relationship problems,

selfharming tendencies, eating

disorders. These are things that are

typically comorbid. So, they go to seek

treatment for those things because those

things are really afflicting them. They

don't know. I mean, nobody know's going

to just know, hey, I'm um I'm

borderline. Why would why would they,

you know, unless unless they did a lot

of research and and you know, but you

can go through life for a very long time

undiagnosed with something because you

don't know that that's what is going on

with you. And so border lines will go

for uh treatment to for their

symptomatic conditions, but not

necessarily their

characteristic pathology or their

personality uh pathology. So they have

these comorbid conditions like um 80 to

90% of the time. Another thing that's

important to understand though is it's

not an environmental trigger always with

border lines. It's the perception of

being triggered. So you mentioned

bipolar. Bipolar people have um mood

swings obviously. Their mood swings are

autonomous from environmental

experience. They're they're neurological

and they're biological, right? So they

just they do just happen like sort of

like the course of like a cold or a flu.

they start to get symptomatic, it

reaches like a, you know, a peak and

then after a certain amount of time they

go back to their baseline level of

functioning. That doesn't mean that

they're functioning perfectly in between

episodes, but an a mood episode like

that is more autonomous in the sense

that it's it's biologically uh

manifesting. Borderline mood shifts are

not biologically manifesting only.

They're also manifesting through

perceptions within the environment. So

they could have a conversation with

someone, think that it was going one

way, and then be disappointed that it

went another way, and then that could

activate a shift in mood, right? But

it's not because the conversation was a

bad conversation. It's because their

perception of it got, you know,

difficult for them in the moment. And

but what they're going to do is they're

going to externalize the blame to that

person. you made me feel this way, like

you did this. If you wouldn't have said

this, I wouldn't have yelled at you or

broke that thing or cut myself. Um, sort

of like that email, you got me. Those

were the words. You got me to sign up

for this upon false pretenses. I did

that. I I forced their hand. So, in

their mind, I was somehow coercive when

what I really said is, "Yeah, I post

these videos and you should sign up and,

you know, see see if you like them."

There's no there's no coercion there.

But to them, they really feel justified

in accusing me of coercing them. So that

wasn't even a verbal exchange. That was

a that was a text exchange through

email. You know, I think the other thing

I see a lot with border lines is there's

a lot of substance use, a lot of

alcoholism and addictions. And then that

also can, and maybe this is different,

but can they also prompt bipolar

episodes too, right? If you take

stimulants for example, that's going to

cycle a lot of people with bipolar into

a mania phase and then that'll cycle

into a depression at some point. But a

lot of those things can be even if it's

bipolar, it can be triggered by a drug

or drinking, I think, too. Yes,

absolutely. There are substance induced

episodes, mood episodes in in bipolar.

Um, for sure. And and yes, there's a lot

of with with cluster B's in general,

there's a lot of comorbid substance

abuse. So, it's not, you know, making a

distinction between abuse and addiction.

It's not necessarily that they're

addicted to a substance, but they will

excessively abuse one for either the sensation

sensation

um or, you know, they to numb themselves

out. Like border lines certainly do

that. Border lines, you got to remember

we're talking about personality

disorder. We're not talking about um

something related to one thing. We're

talking about the entire operating

system. So when they So when they do

something, they're going to do it in

excess if they're an excessive person,

right? And border lines typically do

things to excess. So spending uh money,

um relationships are accelerated at a

rapid pace. There's an idealization and

a desire to merge right away. Um there's

an there's a desire to cut off right

away. There's no preliminary periods of

these things. And the same goes with

substance abuse. They typically will go

to the point of overdose oftentimes

because they're so excessive with with

the behavior. Sadly, it can almost be

self harm too at that point as well. A

lot of this% Yeah. A lot of substance

use with border lines is is

self-destructive. It's like

self-medicating and then it ends up

being self-destructive. Right. And

before we move on to romantic

relationships with the borderline, I

know I'd mentioned Christina and Lawson

in this um talk before, but she

characterizes the four types of

borderline mothers as she says, but she

fully acknowledges there's plenty of

male border lines too. Most of them are

just in jail like you said because they

never got diagnosed and they act out,

but they act out in violent ways and in

criminal ways a lot of times. But she

calls it the waif, the hermit, uh the

witch and the queen. Do you agree with

that characterization or what do you

think about it? I do I mean I think I

think all subtypes derive from

um heterogeneity. So what I mean by that

is there's never like with borderline

there's nine and again the the DSM is

not the Bible of psychology but it's a

it's a reference guide you know to

classify things but there's nine

criteria for borderline personality

disorder in the latest DSM and there's

not one criterion that is necessary for

the diagnosis. So what that means is as

long as there's five out of the nine, it

can inform a diagnosis, right? But the

presentation will look drastically

different depending on which five out of

those nine are present. So I think those

subtypes are ways, clever ways and I

think necessary ways to make sense of

the varying presentations of borderline.

So, um I would say like the witch

subtype is the one who probably has more

of the hostility and aggression and

callousness. And then, you know, the um

you know, I've also heard the quiet

subtype of borderline. I think that's

the one that most people think of when

they think of borderline now because

they think, "Oh, these people are just

emotionally um distraught because of all

the pain they've endured from the abuse

they've suffered and they're just

disregulated." I don't know that that's

not just complex PTSD misdiagnosed or

misrepresented as border, you know, but

to say that there aren't aggression and

impulsivity and hostility and even

becoming vengeful and sometimes even

sadistic. To say that that doesn't exist

in any heterogeneous presentation of

borderline is just not true. And that's

what would ruffle the feathers there.

And I think Christina and Lawson also

called it it's a butterfly with a sting.

And I think the quiet one would be more

of the waif. I would say that's the one

that seems a little more vulnerable and

helpless. Maybe even someone like Amy

Winehouse. Not to diagnose her or

anything, but that's kind of like what

she would remind me of. And the other

thing I got in a lot of trouble with is

when I had said Joan Crawford, uh, a

borderline quote unquote witch as they

would say. And a lot of people got very

upset at me because said, "No, she must

be a narcissist or she must have

antisocial personality disorder."

Well, I'm going to agree with you.

There you go. Yeah.

Yeah.

So it's just it's possible though it's

possible for them to be abusive and

malicious when you another thing to

consider is the overlapping features and

the um 60% of the time some research

suggests that you know there is more

than one uh personality disorder um in

in individuals or overlapping features

where you almost meet the criteria for

two. So, in my book, The Nature and

Nurture of Narcissism, I talk about my

maternal grandmother. She fit the

criteria for borderline and NPD.

Um, and the reason why that's important

is because it informed why she didn't

um the reverse dicho. She didn't split

because that narcissism was so prominent

that she was very much comfortable with

mistreating people and still playing the

victim, right? But she still had these

perceived um un uh ideas that she was

abandoned even when people were willing

to do her bidding 24 hours a day and

basically act as servants in her court.

She still accused them of abandoning

her. Right? So there was that component

of that vulnerability, but then there

was also this severe hostility where she

did some pretty deplorable things uh to

my mother, to my grandfather, and then

played the victim and everybody just

forgave her and felt sorry for her

because no one knew what these disorders

were. They thought she was really mainly

that people thought she was mentally ill

because it was like she must be ill if

she's doing these things. And a lot of

that was was manipulation.

I think what I hear a lot with kids that

have a borderline parent is they feel as

if they're emotionally held hostage and

a lot of times the borderline parent

will use emotional blackmail guilt trips

because they don't want to be abandoned.

They want that child to always be there

for them on a dime. They'll maybe

manufacture emergencies to have that

happen too. What would be your

suggestions to a child or an adult child

in that dynamic? Well, the guilt trips

are are never ending. I mean, they

really do like I mean, I think that they

not what they see as a reward or a

justification or or justice for

themselves is that somebody else is

feeling bad, which is terrible. Not all

not across the board, but more like the

witch ones for sure. They're not happy

until everyone else is feeling really

unhappy and bad. Um, another thing to

point out though is border lines fear or

are threatened by

um connection just as much as they're fe

they fear or they threaten abandonment.

So, it's not that if you don't abandon

them, they all of a sudden feel better.

Then they'll accuse you of engulfing or

smothering them. So, you can really

never get where you're supposed to be

for them. It's a cons it's a constant

dissatisfaction with you're either too

far away or you don't care enough or

you're too close and you're too much for

me. There's really never a sweet spot

with border lines. That is completely

not true with complex PTSD. There is

there there is the capacity to have

healthy relationships if you have

complex PTSD and you're not worried

about engulfment or um uh abandonment

across the board at all. Um, as far as

infor like what's Yeah, I mean it's I

think the best thing that could that can

take place for a child

um I noticed a lot of adult children of

border lines have never spoken about

their parents to anyone and they

internalize the the blame. So kids

should be encouraged if they have

someone in their life who can support

them whether it's the other parent or

it's a teacher or if it's you know

somebody to be feel give grant

themselves permission as early as

possible to speak about the experiences

without feeling like they're throwing

their parent under the bus. They're just

speaking about their emotional

experiences because you need some you

need an an experience with someone else

who can be consistently there for you

and give you positive regard and give

you generosity and not blame you for

things. You need that experience to

contrast with the borderline parent

experience where they are, you know,

constantly vacasillating between you're

all you're all good and you're all bad.

And that segus pretty well into the

romantic relationships with border lines

too because the pushpull dynamic because

you said the fear of abandonment plus

the fear of engulfment and losing

themselves. Yeah. How do you help a

borderline with that and and how do you

help the people that are on the

receiving end of that? Well, here's the

good news about BPD.

So we we consider personality disorders

um egoonic disorders which means that

for the most part the traits and and the

experience of them in the individual

feels very harmonious with who who they

see themselves as. So they're not trying

to change it because they don't they

feel comfortable in their own skin.

Borderline is the exception. They're

actually egoistonic partially, which

means often times because of those other

occur co-occurring disorders we

mentioned earlier, they don't like

feeling that way. They don't like that

they're um, you know, burning things

down and walking away. They don't want

to live their lives like that all the

time. Their emotion dysregulation can be

treated successfully in in the right

psychotherapy. So, there's a lot of hope

for them if they show up. And it's not

smooth sailing once they show up. I

mean, there's going to be a lot of, you

know, but I I think that they the ones

who are willing to show up to treatment

and if you find if you're if you're

fortunate enough to find a therapist

who's trained in treating these these

disorders through um you know, DBT is

the the kind of gold standard everybody

talks about, but there's also other ones

that are very effective. mentalization

based treatment um schema therapy if

people know how to recognize BPD and

then they know how to treat it um the

prognosis can be good you know it's

again it's an it's a long daunting

process but it's not impossible um in a

lot of individuals who present with with

uh BPD and there are situations where

it's so severe that there's

collaboration will never be achieved but

I do like I do like the fact that um

because of this partial egodistonic

component to it there's there's a lot of

hope for these people and I would

encourage them

to be courageous enough to seek it out

because the egoistonic part that

actually encourages them to get

treatment it actually makes it more

likely I would say because they have all

those unpleasant feelings and I think

that's where it gets complicated for

people that are dating them or married

with them because the borderline can

admit they have issues. They can admit

something's wrong which gives the other

person more hope that oh well they admit

they have an issue. There's a chance but

they still have to like take

accountability and do the action steps

which border lines are more likely to do

in my experience than say narcissists or

others in the cluster B category. But

where would you say to draw the line for

someone that's trying to be dating them

or married to them? What is the line for

someone? And I guess you can't tell

everyone what their line would be, but I

think the line really does depend on

willingness to um try to modify the

behaviors first. Again, we we want to

get the behaviors that are inappropriate

and unacceptable under wraps before we

start dealing with um anything else. I

think that depends on the individual,

how much resiliency they have. I think

some people are more resilient to

tolerating that conflict than others.

But also,

um, we're talking about heterogeneity.

So, it's not that like just because

someone has this diagnosis that the

outcome is going to be the same with

them as it is with another. I mean, it

it it varies drastically. So you'd have

to assess that and also look for

um you know the enduring patterns and

how much your quality of life is

suffering if you decide to stay. Um I

think you're right that they do go and

seek help for other things and so people

have this hope that okay well maybe

things are going to turn around but most

of the time I've seen that the person

who's treating them isn't treating their

BPD. So even if the mood increases a

little bit or the eating disorder gets

you know modified or the substance abuse

gets you know decreased a bit there's

still these pathological traits that

inform their perception of relating. And

so at that point it's like you should

probably give yourself a time frame on

how long how long you're going to

tolerate that if that doesn't get

better. Also, just to be clear,

borderline personality disorder does not

improve in the context of a

relationship, like a personal

relationship. No amount of empathy and

understanding and patience is going to

make somebody become no longer

borderline. Those aren't the

interventions or the approaches to stop

these behaviors. It's just not. I mean,

if that were the case, we could just

love people out of this. And that's just

I know people who love and are devoted

to a fault to people who have, you know,

this disorder and and no amount of of

love and affection and and patience and

and nurturing is going to, you know,

remove that.

And that's a very good point to make

because if you were to listen to

Borderlines, a lot of them would say,

"If only I could find that ideal love,

that one person that's going to be the

Disney fantasy, then everything will be

okay." And it can sound pretty

convincing. And as a man, I have

experienced dating borderline women.

Like I said, and I think one of the

things, and I've gotten push back for

this, too, some borderline women are

very good at appearing to be someone

that like needs to be rescued or saved.

And there are some guys that can be an

appealing thing to them. And yeah,

sometimes it's a narcissist guy too that

wants to swoop in to take power and

control. But I think even other times,

guys are actually like a good dude like

like really want to help this person,

and it becomes a temptation. No, I want

I want to help this person. They seem so

in need of help and they seem so in need

of someone to save them. But what would

you say to the guys in that spot or the

vice versa, a woman like that is wanting

to save the borderline man? Yeah. I

think one of the distinctions that's

important to make is I don't think that

border lines enter into relationships

with this um covert exploitation the way

that narcissists and psychopaths do. I

think they actually do enter into

something with an idealized fantasy

thinking this is going to be this the

solution to all their emotional problems

their emotional you know conflicts but

then once that doesn't meet their

expectations then they can turn on you

and be very manipulative and emotionally

blackmailing and stuff. So I think

that's one thing is I don't think that

they are premeditating like oh you are

prey and I'm I'm really going to I'm

really going to give it to you once once

I have an opportunity. Um I don't that

not that that's an important

distinction. Um it doesn't justify the

backlash you receive after but it

certainly is like they some of like a

lot of them are just truly looking for

and they don't know what is going on

with them internally. So they don't they

don't they're not necessarily uh

premeditating any sort of exploitation.

Um but you do need to look out for

rescuing somebody, you know, because

you're not going to be able to rescue

him. Sometime you mentioned earlier like

if I just find that that that love that

Disneyland fantasy often times they have

found it. There's people who are willing

to go through any length in the world to

to satisfy this person and it's still

not enough, right? So they don't even

know sometimes that the best thing

that's ever happened to them is the the

person that they the relationship that

they are not uh getting along in very

well. So I

think that people people just need to

take things slow with relationships.

There's no shortcut to true intimacy,

you know, and oftentimes borderline

personalities because of their

intensity, they like to really

accelerate the process, you know. let's

get let's merge quickly. And so that's

something that men and women should look

for in partners is what is this um why

where is this urgency to merge so

quickly coming from? You know, pay

attention to that because if it feels

like you're having to, you know, for

like foreclose on your own autonomy or

your own independent life, that's

probably a sign um that things need to

slow down, you know? Right. And and part

of what I was referring to before was a

narcissistic person would want to

exploit and prey on a vulnerable

borderline. That's that's what I admit.

Yes. And and but other just regular

people that are not neuroid diversions

in any way. They still might get the

impulsion to want to rescue or save for

whatever reason. Not just a narcissist

would, right? Anyone might. Narcissists

are notorious for targeting border lines

because they out of the gate they get

idealized. So they get the admiration

and things that they want from somebody

and then when they devalue a borderline

the borderline starts to

self-deprecate, you know, after they

defend themselves and they feel like

they're worthless and then they want to

re earn the affection of the narcissist

again. So the narcissist toys with that

and plays with that until they become an

idealized object again and then the

borderline can become very apologetic

and remorseful and then that cycle

repeats itself. So it's very um I mean I

do want to say we haven't said this yet

borderline some border lines can be very

abusive. They're also abused quite

often you know. I'm not gonna

Absolutely. Yeah. So, so I mean, yeah,

because people sometimes get into the

black and white thinking with that, too.

They think, well, if you ever abuse, it

means you can never be abused. And it's

like, that's not how it works at all.

It's like, no, you can be abused.

Sorry about that background. But it's

like, yeah, you can be abused even if

you have a personality disorder.

Certainly possible. Like, yes. And some

people think you can't though. They

think, oh, no, if you are ever abusive,

it means you can never be the abuser.

And I was like, where the heck did you

get that from? No. Yeah, that's

absolutely not true. Right. And I think

another good thing you mentioned before

is that sense of urgency that I hear a

lot of people with borderline get. It

becomes really a necessity. I must find

this ideal love now. I'm running out of

time. I got to be I got to find this

person. But it's all implicating that

they're not happy on their own. And it's

like if you're going into a relationship

not happy on your own, you're not that's not a good a recipe for a healthy

not a good a recipe for a healthy relationship. That's not a strong

relationship. That's not a strong foundation because you can't expect

foundation because you can't expect someone else to make you happy if you're

someone else to make you happy if you're not already happy on your own. Yeah. I

not already happy on your own. Yeah. I think that I think that Yeah. The good

think that I think that Yeah. The good the distinction there would be that you

the distinction there would be that you you you can't put all of your happiness

you you can't put all of your happiness eggs in that one basket, you know, like

eggs in that one basket, you know, like you like that's the goal of a

you like that's the goal of a relationship isn't for you to be held by

relationship isn't for you to be held by someone else. And border lines really do

someone else. And border lines really do like to be held and contained by someone

like to be held and contained by someone else, right? They like almost want that

else, right? They like almost want that symbiotic connection of like all their

symbiotic connection of like all their needs are being met without having to

needs are being met without having to ask. Um that's not why we enter into

ask. Um that's not why we enter into relationships. We enter into

relationships. We enter into relationships for support and um you

relationships for support and um you know uh companionship, connection, but

know uh companionship, connection, but also we don't lose ourselves in the

also we don't lose ourselves in the other person. And so that merger is and

other person. And so that merger is and that urgency are indicators that the

that urgency are indicators that the other person is, you know, wanting to

other person is, you know, wanting to lose themselves in someone else or find

lose themselves in someone else or find themselves in someone else rather than

themselves in someone else rather than the other person just sort of enhancing

the other person just sort of enhancing the, you know, joyous and positive life

the, you know, joyous and positive life that they've built for themselves, you

that they've built for themselves, you know. So it's not it's never a good idea

know. So it's not it's never a good idea to to depend on somebody for that,

to to depend on somebody for that, right? And we talk a lot about the

right? And we talk a lot about the narcissistic cycle of abuse with

narcissistic cycle of abuse with lovebombing, devalue, discard, Hoover.

lovebombing, devalue, discard, Hoover. What is the borderline equivalent of

What is the borderline equivalent of that? Yeah. So, I don't really think

that? Yeah. So, I don't really think that there's a linear with border lines.

that there's a linear with border lines. It's not really a linear process because

It's not really a linear process because of that reverse dichotomizing. It's sort

of that reverse dichotomizing. It's sort of like it vacasillates between like

of like it vacasillates between like love then hate then love then hate then

love then hate then love then hate then love then hate and sometimes within a

love then hate and sometimes within a given day, you know. Um, so there's not

given day, you know. Um, so there's not really this, it's also there's not this

really this, it's also there's not this intentionality to I'm going to exploit

intentionality to I'm going to exploit this person, they're going to disappoint

this person, they're going to disappoint me, I'm going to devalue, then I'm going

me, I'm going to devalue, then I'm going to discard. That's not what they're

to discard. That's not what they're doing. They're really in the moment

doing. They're really in the moment where you are all bad, they want nothing

where you are all bad, they want nothing to do with you. And then in the and then

to do with you. And then in the and then when they are all bad, they want

when they are all bad, they want everything to do with you. And that

everything to do with you. And that happens all like often, you know. Um,

happens all like often, you know. Um, not all day every day, but but very

not all day every day, but but very frequently. Um, and so that's why it can

frequently. Um, and so that's why it can be difficult to pin it. I don't know if

be difficult to pin it. I don't know if there's any rhyme or reason to it. It's

there's any rhyme or reason to it. It's been referred to as continuously

been referred to as continuously discontinuous.

discontinuous. That's a good way to put it. And I think

That's a good way to put it. And I think another thing I see a lot with border

another thing I see a lot with border lines in relationships is the way they

lines in relationships is the way they triangulate. Now narcissists, I see them

triangulate. Now narcissists, I see them triangulate with others. And a lot of

triangulate with others. And a lot of times it's just to make the other people

times it's just to make the other people jealous and they get maybe a little bit

jealous and they get maybe a little bit of sadistic glee sometimes from seeing

of sadistic glee sometimes from seeing them jealous and uncomfortable. But

them jealous and uncomfortable. But border lines, I've noticed they'll do

border lines, I've noticed they'll do that because they want more love from

that because they want more love from you. Like if they think you're not

you. Like if they think you're not giving them attention or enough love,

giving them attention or enough love, they'll triangulate you with somebody to

they'll triangulate you with somebody to try to get you to love them more. And

try to get you to love them more. And it's an immature attempt to do that. But

it's an immature attempt to do that. But I do see that a lot. Do you see that?

I do see that a lot. Do you see that? Yes. Yeah. Absolutely. Yeah. They want

Yes. Yeah. Absolutely. Yeah. They want um they think they need to use these

um they think they need to use these tactics in order to get their needs met.

tactics in order to get their needs met. And the reason is is because their needs

And the reason is is because their needs are, you know, unreasonable. So they

are, you know, unreasonable. So they have to they they feel like they have to

have to they they feel like they have to resort to these tactics in order to get

resort to these tactics in order to get their needs met. But the re the needs

their needs met. But the re the needs are what really needs to happen is they

are what really needs to happen is they need to learn how to regulate better. If

need to learn how to regulate better. If they self-regulate better, they don't

they self-regulate better, they don't need to do these tactics. You know, I

need to do these tactics. You know, I remember my grandmother would call my

remember my grandmother would call my mom and then my dad and then me and then

mom and then my dad and then me and then my uncle and my aunt and tell tell five

my uncle and my aunt and tell tell five different stories so that those five

different stories so that those five people would clash and argue about

people would clash and argue about something. Why didn't anybody bring her

something. Why didn't anybody bring her food? What do you mean? She said that

food? What do you mean? She said that you were going to do it. No, she said

you were going to do it. No, she said you weren't going to do it. That you

you weren't going to do it. That you were going to do it. Well, why would I

were going to do it. Well, why would I do it? I'm 30 minutes away. You're two

do it? I'm 30 minutes away. You're two minutes away. But it's like I mean

minutes away. But it's like I mean everyone was talking about her like she

everyone was talking about her like she found a way to become on everybody's

found a way to become on everybody's radar but it was the only way she could

radar but it was the only way she could figure out how to do it was to create a

figure out how to do it was to create a lot of conflict between people and and

lot of conflict between people and and and you know create division but she got

and you know create division but she got what she wanted. Everybody was she was

what she wanted. Everybody was she was on the forefront of everybody's mind.

on the forefront of everybody's mind. Yeah. I mean it controls others gives

Yeah. I mean it controls others gives them attention and then everyone felt

them attention and then everyone felt bad for her because they were like oh

bad for her because they were like oh wait is she actually starving them?

wait is she actually starving them? Someone needs like we got to stop

Someone needs like we got to stop arguing and go get her some food right

arguing and go get her some food right now, you know. Right. Right. And they're

now, you know. Right. Right. And they're the center of it all. It makes them feel

the center of it all. It makes them feel important too. It's a way to get

important too. It's a way to get admiration really in a covert way or at

admiration really in a covert way or at least a way to feel important. Yeah. and

least a way to feel important. Yeah. and then everyone felt guilty and then you

then everyone felt guilty and then you know it was so it's not necessarily that

know it was so it's not necessarily that it's always um

it's always um uh from the get-go this idealization

uh from the get-go this idealization devaluation discard uh pattern so much

devaluation discard uh pattern so much as they probably do oftentimes go into

as they probably do oftentimes go into relationship prospects with good

relationship prospects with good intentions and hope that this is going

intentions and hope that this is going to be the thing to save them and then it

to be the thing to save them and then it falls short and then all of these other

falls short and then all of these other um these emotional blackmailing and

um these emotional blackmailing and manipulative tactics result from that

manipulative tactics result from that disappointment.

disappointment. Right. Now, do you ever see things such

Right. Now, do you ever see things such as mood stabilizers helping people with

as mood stabilizers helping people with borderline?

borderline? Not for the borderline uh just bipolar

Not for the borderline uh just bipolar with that. Yeah. I mean, if there's a

with that. Yeah. I mean, if there's a comorbid mood disorder, you know, I

comorbid mood disorder, you know, I think it can stabilize some symptoms,

think it can stabilize some symptoms, but again, when we're talking about

but again, when we're talking about personality, we're talking about

personality, we're talking about characteristics, traits. We're not

characteristics, traits. We're not talking about

talking about um symptoms that you know can be

um symptoms that you know can be alleviated through an intervention like

alleviated through an intervention like that. Most of the research on borderline

that. Most of the research on borderline and this will probably get some push

and this will probably get some push back here but I'm talking about re

back here but I'm talking about re research published in 2025 from

research published in 2025 from individuals who've opened clinics

individuals who've opened clinics dedicated to the treatment of this

dedicated to the treatment of this disorder. They don't

disorder. They don't necessarily find any benefit to

necessarily find any benefit to psychopharmarmacology related to the

psychopharmarmacology related to the treatment of this unless there's a

treatment of this unless there's a comorbid condition where some anxiety or

comorbid condition where some anxiety or depressive symptoms can be you know uh

depressive symptoms can be you know uh contained or treated in in addition but

contained or treated in in addition but okay and that's good to know too and I

okay and that's good to know too and I think the last thing I wanted to ask you

think the last thing I wanted to ask you about this what do you think is the best

about this what do you think is the best way to tell the difference between a

way to tell the difference between a covert narcissist and borderline Why?

covert narcissist and borderline Why? Yeah, that's a good that's a good

Yeah, that's a good that's a good question. Um, again, I think you kind of

question. Um, again, I think you kind of you kind of hit on it earlier where the

you kind of hit on it earlier where the emotional expression or dissatisfaction

emotional expression or dissatisfaction is typically you can't con you can't

is typically you can't con you can't conceal it often times with border lines

conceal it often times with border lines because if there's this there's this

because if there's this there's this impulsivity and this the emotional

impulsivity and this the emotional instability is it's kind of worn on

instability is it's kind of worn on their sleeve. So, it's not it's not

their sleeve. So, it's not it's not hidden or contained, you know, it's it's

hidden or contained, you know, it's it's disregulated. A covert narcissist can be

disregulated. A covert narcissist can be very much if they're striving to achieve

very much if they're striving to achieve something from you, they can very much

something from you, they can very much conceal their emotions for a very long

conceal their emotions for a very long time. Even if they feel like they want

time. Even if they feel like they want to rage at you, they can still keep it

to rage at you, they can still keep it under wraps if they feel like it's going

under wraps if they feel like it's going to benefit them too. And so, that

to benefit them too. And so, that element of control of that, I think, is

element of control of that, I think, is a good indicator of the like the

a good indicator of the like the distinctions. Okay. And before I let you

distinctions. Okay. And before I let you go, Peter, anything new coming up for

go, Peter, anything new coming up for you? Any new courses, uh, books or any

you? Any new courses, uh, books or any other new content stuff coming up? Yeah,

other new content stuff coming up? Yeah, I'm working or I'm actually working with

I'm working or I'm actually working with um, uh, a co-f facilitator um, stronger

um, uh, a co-f facilitator um, stronger than before coach. She's known as Lisa

than before coach. She's known as Lisa um, for like a trauma bond recovery

um, for like a trauma bond recovery program that we're we're co-f

program that we're we're co-f facilitating. Um it's like a 12-week

facilitating. Um it's like a 12-week program that's like individual work and

program that's like individual work and then there's discussion groups once a

then there's discussion groups once a week. So that next one is coming up on

week. So that next one is coming up on June 11th and then we're going to have

June 11th and then we're going to have multiple co cohorts of that. Um I am

multiple co cohorts of that. Um I am currently working on a new book. Um

currently working on a new book. Um probably going to be out in the next uh

probably going to be out in the next uh four to six months. Um, and then I'm

four to six months. Um, and then I'm working on the uh audible version of the

working on the uh audible version of the traumatic cognitive dissonance book

traumatic cognitive dissonance book which should be out within a few weeks.

which should be out within a few weeks. And people can find that course on your

And people can find that course on your website or they can find it via your

website or they can find it via your Instagram. Yeah, there's a link on my

Instagram. Yeah, there's a link on my Instagram handle, Dr. Peter Serno, and

Instagram handle, Dr. Peter Serno, and then um uh stronger than before coach

then um uh stronger than before coach has the

has the the link as well on her. Okay.

the link as well on her. Okay. Well, and I think the cliffhanger for

Well, and I think the cliffhanger for the people here, I think the next time

the people here, I think the next time we talk, we'll talk about uh another

we talk, we'll talk about uh another professional that made a video about the

professional that made a video about the 80% almost 80% genetics or or narcissism

80% almost 80% genetics or or narcissism is genetic component. And I think that

is genetic component. And I think that whole video that was made could deserve

whole video that was made could deserve an entire breakdown as well. So, I think

an entire breakdown as well. So, I think that would be a good thing to talk about

that would be a good thing to talk about the next time we speak. Absolutely.

the next time we speak. Absolutely. Looking forward to that one. I'm going

Looking forward to that one. I'm going to clarify a lot of things.

to clarify a lot of things. That'll be a good one. I mean, and I'd

That'll be a good one. I mean, and I'd be open to having you both on at the

be open to having you both on at the same time. That'd be great. And I'd also

same time. That'd be great. And I'd also thought about the same with Dr. Simon,

thought about the same with Dr. Simon, too, trying to get Dr. Simon and you on

too, trying to get Dr. Simon and you on as well at the same time at some point

as well at the same time at some point if you'd ever be interested in doing

if you'd ever be interested in doing that. Well, I'd be more than interested.

that. Well, I'd be more than interested. I'd also be a bit nervous because he's

I'd also be a bit nervous because he's he's kind of one of my heroes. So, that

he's kind of one of my heroes. So, that would be uh uncomfortably um exciting.

would be uh uncomfortably um exciting. Yeah. Yeah. So, I mean, I'll try to I'll

Yeah. Yeah. So, I mean, I'll try to I'll try to set up both of those at a point,

try to set up both of those at a point, too, but I think the first one would be

too, but I think the first one would be just addressing that first video first,

just addressing that first video first, then we take it from there. Absolutely.

then we take it from there. Absolutely. That would be great. All right, Peter,

That would be great. All right, Peter, thanks again for coming on the show.

thanks again for coming on the show. It's always a pleasure. Always a

It's always a pleasure. Always a pleasure. Thank you for having me again.

Click on any text or timestamp to jump to that moment in the video

Most transcripts ready in under 5 seconds

One-Click Copy125+ LanguagesSearch ContentJump to Timestamps

Paste YouTube URL

Enter any YouTube video link to get the full transcript

Most transcripts ready in under 5 seconds

Get Our Chrome Extension

Get transcripts instantly without leaving YouTube. Install our Chrome extension for one-click access to any video's transcript directly on the watch page.

Add to Chrome — Free

Works with YouTube, Coursera, Udemy and more educational platforms

Get Instant Transcripts: Just Edit the Domain in Your Address Bar!

YouTube

←

→

↻

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UF8uR6Z6KLc

YoutubeToText

←

→

↻

https://youtubetotext.net/watch?v=UF8uR6Z6KLc

YouTube TranscriptPreparing your results…