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Your Love Is Not Enough To Change A Borderline! with Dr. Peter Salerno @DrPeterSalerno | The Wizard of Radical Self-Respect | YouTubeToText
YouTube Transcript: Your Love Is Not Enough To Change A Borderline! with Dr. Peter Salerno @DrPeterSalerno
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Video Transcript
Today I had my friend Dr. Peter Serno
back on the program and as a change of
pace we talked all about borderline
personality disorder. We talked about
splitting. We talked about what it's
like to have borderline parents to be in
a romantic relationship with a
borderline. And we even got introduced
to Dr. Serno's famous cat. So make sure
you look out for that, too. But with
that, I hope you enjoy my conversation
with Dr. Serno as much as I did.
All right. Today my guest is again Dr.
Peter Serno. How are you today, Peter?
I'm doing well. How are you, Jared?
Living the dream over here. Always a
pleasure to have you on. Yeah, it's a
pleasure to be here. I do have a a
little guest who's going to make a debut
because I know that she made a
auditory appearance
um on our last interview. So, this is
Winter. She's the one who was making the noise.
noise.
I love her. She looks exactly like my
mom's cat, too. She's got one named
Shale. the same breed it looks like. So
anyway, she wanted to introduce herself
to the people who heard her in the
background from our last interview. She
was very popular in that one. A lot of
comments were talking about her. I know
it's actually lunchtime for her, so we
might hear her again once she realizes
that. So that's awesome. Now, today to
warn people, we probably will get under
some people's skin today because we're
going to talk about
BPD. And there seems to be a lot of push
back about people who talk about BPD,
especially if it's BPD women, too. And
people, and I think this is a good thing
to go over to start with it, people seem
to outsource all of the abusive
behaviors in cluster B to narcissism or
like antisocial personality disorder,
but no one feels comfortable telling the
truth about border lines.
Yeah, I would agree with that. And I
think, you know, the the the prevalence
estimates when it comes to men and women
are actually very similar. They're very
close. I think the latest is like 46%
men, so 54% women. So, it's it's almost
down. It's it's pretty close in in
in being equal. And also, those can be
based on clinical populations
um and general population. So, it's not
necessarily 100% accurate. Those are
obviously always estimates. But when I
talk about BPD, I'm I'm not I'm talking
about the men and the women. So I think
that's also important because it it
matters for our discussion today because
some of the way that it presents it
makes a difference in in in the sex as
well as far as uh behavior. Um but we'll
we'll we'll certainly get into that. Um
and I think to start also with
narcissism is is there an equal amount
would you say of male and female
narcissists or pretty close? I
personally think that that's the case,
but but if we're going on the same um
the same uh
prevalence, I'd say that it's been
documented that it's like typically 75%
male, 25% female that that it's
documented as. Um but I don't believe
that these are I don't believe that
psychological traits have anything to do
with sex or gender. I believe that they
have to do with our human DNA. So, I
believe that for the most part, they're
probably equal across the board.
Um, you know, I know that um with when
it comes to uh histrionic personality
disorder, for example, which is in the
same category, same classification of as
borderline narcissism and and
antisocial, it's less spoken about, but
the the prevalence has been estimated to
be right down the middle. It's 50/50
among men and women. Um, I think there's
more antisocial offenders who have been
caught that are male, so that prevalence
is also a bit skewed as a result of
that. Um, but there certainly are
female and male psychopaths and
antisocial personalities, right? And
that's how I've seen it, too. I've
always thought there's a pretty close
amount of male and female narcissists
and male and female border lines, too,
for that matter. That's how I've seen it
because it's not a gendered thing. And
I've heard a doctor say the other day,
some people think narcissism and
borderline are gendered expressions of
the same dysfunction. And I don't agree
with that at all. Yeah, I disagree with
that completely. There's no empirical
evidence to support that claim. There's
also I heard uh somebody sent me a video
the other day related to um BPD being
solely caused by uh exposure to
narcissists. And so it's like the it's
like the inversion of it in a way and
where it's caused by being around
narcissists and then it's this
self-directed assault or attack um where
you self-destruct as a result of being extremely
extremely
um uh warm and empathic and nurturing
and then the narcissist just sort of
stealing all of that from you. And
that's also categorically untrue.
There's no evidence to support that
claim. Yeah, I saw I think I saw what
you're talking about. Dr. Orion Teraban,
I broke it down because he was saying
something very similar and he said a lot
of things about many things I disagreed
with and I broke that down too. He was
saying, yeah, male and female, male
narcissist, female border lines. Now,
one thing I've heard about border lines
is some women who have given me push
back, they said it's a misogynistic
diagnosis. What would you say to the
people who say that?
Well, again, that's 100% not true
because we just talked about the
prevalence being equal.
Um, we're not talking
about women or men behaving in a certain
way because they're men or women. We're
talking about psychological traits that
all human beings uh possess and that
some human beings depending on uh
differences in the DNA sequence and
variations of that um have more or less
of as a result of a lot of random
effects. Right?
So, I you know, you know me as somebody
who promotes and supports um behavioral
genetics and this kind of missing piece
that's been dismissed or neglected
outright in in favor of environmental
determinism in psychology. And I'm
trying to, you know, promote that. Well,
we're missing something that's the most
influential component and that's been
ignored um at least in popular media in
a lot of research, too. But we're
talking about um traits that everybody
who is a human being shares. And then
when we talk about personality dis
disorder, we're talking about variations
in the trait expression that are on the
highly deficient end of the continuum or
highly severely uh excessive end of the
continuum. And that's
really what we're talking about when we
refer to disorder. So, it's not that
only border lines have impulsivity and
aggression. It's that the way they have
it and the amount that they have it, the
severity, the intensity, the frequency
of the expression would make somebody uh
borderline and and somebody who is
somewhere in the middle would be more
what we refer to as neurotypical, right?
So, we're not talking about you have
these things that no one else has and
that's why you have a problem. What
we're talking about is the intensity,
the severity, the frequency, the amount,
right? We're talking about quantity, if
you will, not quality, not either or.
It's how much of or how little of
something. And you put those traits
together and you create
um based on
research, 50 plus years of research that
shows how these traits are heritable and
they're across the world. You know,
they're they're not just happening in
certain environments, they're happening
in all environments. Um, that's really
what I'm talking about when I when I
speak of these disorders is is trait
deficiencies and trait excesses that
create enduring pervasive patterns of
behavior across the lifespan and that
are highly inflexible.
Where do you think the confusion begins
with BPD?
So, I mean BPD has its own confusing
history in in psychology and in
psychological literature and in research.
research.
Originally the term borderline comes
from the and this is no longer the case.
So I want to emphasize that but it comes
from the idea that certain individuals
ride the borderline between neuro being
neurotic and then venturing into
psychosis. Okay, that's the original
term for border. That's the borderline
neurosis to psychosis. And so it used to
be conceptualized as a psychotic
disorder where like an like a highly
neurotic person enters into these stages
of becoming psychotic. And so it was
conceptualized in a way that we no
longer conceptualize it. There's still
popular literature that that um
describes borderline as like a psychotic
anxiety, you know, um but that's just
that's no longer the case. I mean, we've
done enough research now to know that
that's really not what it is. Not all
people with borderline u uh pathology
um are considered psychotic first of all
and there's a lot more to borderline
pathology than neurosis because we're
all neurotic to a degree. We all have
internal conflicts. That's the
definition of neurosis is someone having
an internal conflict. Um we have now
seen the biological underpinnings of
these disorders. We've seen um
neurotransmission um contributions.
We've seen hormonal contributions. I
mean, it's an it's the entire operating
system, you know, it's not it's multiple
systems are at play here. So, to say
that it's just something um where these
people are just really really highly
neurotic and then they get psychotic
from time to time, it's just it's
oversimplified and highly inaccurate.
So, so the history of what it is, first
of all,
um confuses people. And then also um
there's been a lot of research recently
to suggest that what we have um
historically considered to be the
vulnerable narcissism subtype of of NPD
is really borderline personality because
90% identical in trait facets and
domains and in criterion variables. So
we're we're just learning a lot more
about these things. I would say that um
vulnerable narcissism has been um
applied to men historically who are
actually borderline in presentation. And
then um BPD has been almost exclusively
um inferred to be a a female issue, but
that's just ignorant and incorrect.
Yeah. And like I agree with that, too.
There's plenty of male border lines. I
had thought I had something similar to
it at a time as well because and we kind
of went over this last time a little bit
too, but I I am someone that is probably
on the spectrum and since it was
undiagnosed, I don't it turned into
something that looks similar in my eyes
to BPD, but it probably wasn't exactly
that. It can just maybe appear similar,
especially when there's addictions
involved. But what are the causes of BPD?
BPD?
So, first of all, there is this idea
that life adversity
um is sufficient to cause a personality disorder
disorder
and that's just not true. Okay, life
adversity by itself cannot explain the
development of a personality disorder.
What we are understanding now is um some
people are more vulnerable to developing
personality disorders based on their
temperament. And our temperament um is
sort of a
um it's not entirely fixed. It's not
like completely hardwired, but it's very
very highly influential to our
consistent patterns of behavior and
thinking and feeling perceiving across
our lifespan. So, and our temperament is
um something that we are born with,
which means that it's something that um
has developed before we're born if we're
born with it. Right? So that factor is
highly important to understanding that
like we'll say difficult, challenging or
problematic temperaments um make people
more vulnerable one to adverse life
experiences and also make people more
vulnerable to to personality pathology
because if you have a certain kind of
temperament, your perception of your
environment and then your responses to
it are going to be highly influenced by
that temperament.
And by those biological underpinnings,
the same environment for two different
people is going to be perceived and
responded to
differently very much depending on their
their temperament, which is sort of like
their startup material before any
environmental adversity. So, right. And
that's something you mentioned in your
book too about the nature and nurture of
narcissism that those inherent traits
people are going to seek out
environments because of those inherent
traits. And the example you used was
introversion. If you're introverted,
yeah, you're going to gravitate to
things that are going to make your
introversion, you're going to be more
comfortable with it. And the same thing
applies to these personality disorders
and the inherent traits involved in
them. Correct? And so when we talk about
we when we talk about disorder, it's
really important to understand that
there's no such thing as um like a a bad
gene or a disordered gene or um it's
just variations in it. Right? So again,
we want to I want to be clear some of
the traits that are typical in somebody
who has borderline personality and this
is not um something that you qualify
like either or. something that you
quantify how much or how less you know.
So when we talk about that there are
varying degrees of
impulsivity, aggression, hostility, uh
neurotic traits, um negative
affectivity. These are these are
straight from diagnostic manuals. I'm
these aren't my opinions. I'm not making
this up. Um, this is all things that
these are all things that have
been understood by
observation, clinical research studies,
replicated studies. It's just the way it
is. These aren't good or bad, right or
wrong. I'm just explaining these are the
facts. There are certain traits that we
associate with borderline personality.
There are certain traits we associate
with narcissism. There are certain
traits we associate with antisocial. Um,
so we want to look at the severity, the
frequency, the intensity of these
particular traits in individuals because
it's going to inform us um of what their
personality is like. You know, these are
so I don't know if that answered your
question. It that answers the question.
Now, what would you say to the people
that say, and people said this to me the
other day, border lines are not abusive.
What would you say to them?
Well, of course, you know, now we have
to define
abuse, but um I've never experienced
somebody who has been related to someone with
with
BPD as describing that they haven't been
abused in some way. Now, I think what
people mean by abuse is not all border
lines are physically violent. A lot of
male border lines are. This is another
um statistic that I'm not making up.
There are more male border lines
incarcerated because of their aggression
and impulsivity than there are
narcissists. So, that surprises people
to hear, but it's because with
borderline aggression and impulsivity,
there is an uncontrollable element to
that. Whereas with
narcissists, they are often so motivated
to save face and create an impression of
themselves that is not true that they
can conceal it enough to where it's
covert. Right? with border lines, they
don't have the mechanism of self-control
because of the dysregulation from all of
the other uh systems I I highlighted
earlier that they literally can't stop
themselves from becoming that violent or
that aggressive and so it gets them in
legal trouble often. Um, more males than
females actually as far as being
incarcerated for that. But that's just a
fact of biology. We're talking again
about aggression and impulsivity. We're
not talking about someone being bad or
good. I'm talk I'm not even I'm not even
creating a um a moral perspective with
these traits. I'm simply stating that
they exist. Aggression and impulsivity
exist in human beings. These individuals
who are diagnosed with BPD have more of
the of that those traits, you know.
So, um, to say that they're not abusive
and and then one of the arguments I get
a lot when I when I talk about BPD is
I'm someone says, "I'm BPD and I've
never heard a fly. I have empathy oozing
out of my pores. It's coursing through
my veins all the time. I could never
hurt. I love animals and anytime I'm
self-destructive, I'm self-destructive
to myself." Okay? To which I would I
would reply, I agree and believe I
believe that about
you. How is
self-destruction not impactful to the
ones who love you? First of all, because
if you are constantly trying to hurt
yourself, kill yourself, that's
tormenting the people who want you to be
alive and who love you. So, that's a
form of abuse is the inability to stop
self-destructing, just like the
inability to stop drinking or taking
drugs, is certainly abusive in a way to
the people who care about you. even if
you're not intentionally trying to harm
them by by the the substance use, it's
you can't deny that it's impacting them,
you know. And um
so this idea that the the that
borderline is exclusively
self-destructive and not other
destructive. There are too many
exceptions to that rule. There are
plenty of borderline individuals who um
have repeated offenses of being
physically violent, destructive,
excessive in a way where it's so
irresponsible that it's affecting the
family system.
Um, I think what people get get worked
up about when we talk about this is
borderlines do have um these periods
where they are no
longer seeing other people as the bad
object. They are seeing themselves as
the bad object and they have an
experience of profound pain and
self-loathing and emptiness that people
can only assume means
that they're
traumatized and so they're not being
abusive. They're just
being reactive to their trauma, right?
Reactive to their pain. That's not
necessarily the whole story. You know,
there there is certainly aspects of that
that can be considered true, but the
idea that um that's the only
reason why they're behaving the way they
behave when they misbehave is because of
trauma, that's
also not true. There's no there's no
evidence of that across the board,
right? And that's what they would want
you to believe. This is all just because
of my trauma. And the other thing I hear
them say a lot is they have these very
plausible explanations and defenses
about why they do what they do. And it's
sneaky because unlike many narcissists,
they'll admit they're borderline.
They'll admit that they're doing this
behavior, but then they have this wild
elaboration of why they do it. And it's
not accountability, though. It's just
this excuse about why they're doing it.
and they don't actually acknowledge the
bad behavior is in there. There's a lot
of perceptual gaps and distortions in
the in the borderline uh personality
profile. Okay? So, I'm not I'm not
singling any particular person out who
has it. Again, there's variations.
There's heterogeneity. So, the the
presentation is, you know, not it's not
one sizefits-all. You know, there's
variations in it. But what's really
important to understand is they draw emotional
emotional
conclusions before they verify facts.
And then when the facts are verified,
they they they stick to their emotional
conclusions. That's something that is
pretty um consistent with somebody who
perceives things uh through the
borderline mind is that there's a lot of
emotional conclusions drawn. But again,
when we're talking about disorder, we're
talking about perceptual gaps and
distortions. So, those aren't always
credible, you know, and we have to
factor that in. It's not an accident,
and I don't mean this as an insult. Um,
I'm a clinician. It's not an accident
that borderline is in the same
classification of disorders as
antisocial and narcissism. It's in
diagnostic manuals because of the
overlapping features. Now, people don't
like that. And there have been again
there have been proposals to remove
borderline from the personality disorder
category and reclassify it as complex
PTSD. And the truth is um in order for
that to happen the cause of the the
presentation would have to be solely
from adverse life experiences like
complex PTSD. There are distinct
differences in complex PTSD and
borderline personality. I can go over
them if you want some of the
distinctions, but they're not the same
disorder. For example, when we talk
about complex PTSD,
um, by the way, I have two cats now
coming at trying to get on camera, so
that's why I'm You can see you can show
them. They'll probably make their way
over here. Uh, so when we're talking
about complex
PTSD, individuals who have
post-traumatic stress do have difficulty
with self-regulation and calming when
they're upset. they have difficulty
grounding. That's related to a specific
um trigger or something that activated
them that is similar to the original
stimuli that traumatized them.
Okay. Borderline personalities have a
profound lack of emotional control all
around. It's not, believe it or not,
it's not just when they are feeling
provoked or triggered. It can happen out
of nowhere. They it can it can it can
manifest based on what's what what their
affect is. And a effect is related to
how pleasant or unpleasant someone feels
throughout the day and how calm or
irritable someone feels throughout the
day. And border lines have negative
affectivity, which means they typically
run unpleasant and irritable even when
they're not being environmentally
triggered. And this is kind of a sad
component to that disorder because
that's not their fault.
But it also informs their perception
throughout the day. So it doesn't really require
require
something like wronging them for them to
get to the point where they're going to
start getting emotionally dregulated.
And I think that's something that a lot
of border lines wouldn't even understand
about themselves. I think they've got it
in their heads that no, it's all just a
reaction. when some when I split, when I
act get really upset, it's because of
what someone else did. And another thing
that's interesting, and Christine Anne
Lawson said this in her book,
Understanding the Borderline Mother,
that they said they'll forget things
that happened when they were in a
different mental state. So depending on
their moods, like wherein if they're in
the black mood and then all of a sudden
they're in a good mood another day, they
forget things that were done when they
were in that other mood. Do you agree
with that? Um I believe that because
they have this um such an extreme
uncontrollable emotion dysregulation
which often involves anger and
aggression. Okay, it's not just fear,
it's anger and aggression. oftent times
they can actually move into these
dissociative states. Now it's referred
to more as like
microcsychosis. So it's not that they're
actually psychotic like a schizophrenic,
but they have these moments of like
losing touch with reality because of how
intense their emotions are and their
traits expression that they can probably
lose some time and then later on they do
what's called a disavow where they deny
the responsibility and the
accountability. they don't remember it
being that big of a deal. And so when
people give them feedback, hey, this
really hurt what you said, they'll say,
I didn't say that or I don't remember it
or I don't think that, you know, that's
exactly how it happened. And I do
believe that there's some sincerity in
that for some people that they have
actually lost access to the memory of
that. And then there's also other border
lines that intentionally accidentally
forget. This is true. and they've
admitted that to me in in my practice,
by the way, after after years of rapport
were built. I've heard astounding
confessions and admissions that I was so
pleased for them to make and I didn't
judge them for it. I commended them for
their sincerity. But sometimes that can
take years to develop the amount of
trust where someone's going to say, "I
did that because I wanted to." Right?
And that's a good step in their healing
there, too. being able to get to that
point of admitting, yeah, I did this
thing with this malicious intent because
it's never about judging them for it.
That doesn't have that doesn't hold any
weight in in clinical practice. What
holds weight is now that you know that
you can do that, we want to make sure
that you stop because it's not even in
your best self-interest to do that
anymore. And they and that makes sense
to them. It's like, you're right. I
don't want to keep blowing up these
relationships. It's not working for me.
Um so now you install the mechanisms to
which they can behave better rather than
going down the rabbit hole of their
trauma history which really doesn't help
uh border lines recover because it's not
a trauma disorder. Um the behavioral
interventions are what really help them
in the beginning is they get a handle on
how they can behave. If they can give up
threatening to kill themselves, their
relationships will improve. And you
don't have to go down why you do that in
the first place with them
because you're wasting precious time at
that point and it really doesn't matter,
you know, to a degree, right? What is
the experience like for someone with a
borderline parent growing up?
Oh, um I think that inevitably results
in complex
PTSD, you know. I think that's the
that's the um that's what happens the
cumulative trauma um of of that
discontinuous inconsistent experience
with somebody because of the dichoto the
the dichomizing and the um the
splitting. There's um so much
ambivalence and uncertainty in the minds
of children who have been raised with
such you know instability and
inconsistency where they can they can be
the a good object an idealized object
and then all of a sudden they become a
devalued bad object like really without
any provocation. I mean it wasn't really
something that they did to to deserve
the the split but that happened so
frequently on a constant basis. multiple
times within a given day. Uh that
they're just kind of torn trying to
figure out how to make sense of of these
these dichomous shifts, right?
I mean, I've heard serial killers that
had a borderline mother and and they've
killed their own mothers in some of
them, too. And because they were the all
bad child. Everything that that
borderline mother didn't like, they
would project that on to the all bad.
All good is a completely different
story. But the all bad one, they and
oftent times they would go through the
ringer. They were put through a lot.
It's it's awful to hear some of those
stories. Yeah, it is. It is. It's
terrible. Yeah. So, it's an awful
dynamic. And what would you say are the
differences between say how a
narcissistic parent acts versus a
borderline parent? So one of the main
components uh of borderline personality
is they they have dichomous thinking. So
black and white all or nothing thinking
and that again has to do with their
traits. You know their traits are are se
severe on those on the continuum. it's
defi highly deficient or highly
excessive and so that doesn't really
leave a lot of room for gray area in
their in their perceptual understanding
of reality. Right? So what happens is
they dichomize. Narcissists dichomize
too, but they
dichotoize in a very rigid and
inflexible way that is b that is putting
them in favor all the time. So the
dichotomy of narcissism is I'm all good,
you're all bad, end of story. That's the
narcissistic dichotomy. They never
redirect that back onto themselves.
Border lines do something called reverse
dichotoizing. So that's actually what
splitting means. And splitting is for
the borderline, they say, "I'm all good,
you're all bad." And then they split and
they go, I'm all bad, now you're all
good. So the
idealization like rapid cycles with the
borderline where you do become the good
object again. With narcissists, you
never are the good object ever again
once they've decided that you let them
down. You know, they may feain like you
are to win favor. They may ingratiate
you from time to time, but in their mind
you they are constantly demeaning you.
Whereas with border lines, there's a sincere
sincere
feeling and belief that you have once
again gotten back on the pedestal in
their eyes, but it's only a matter of
time before they knock the pedestal
down. So, that's one of the main
distinctions is how they dichomize. And
border lines do that reverse dichotomy
that narcissists never do. And you
mentioned splitting. What would
splitting look like in action in a
borderline's life?
Um, I'll give you I can give you an
example from an email I received
recently. I don't I don't want to
diagnose anybody. I don't have to. But,
um, basically I I received this, thank
you for your contributions to this. I'm
so happy. I feel so validated and seen.
And then it was um, so I was the all
good object, right? And then the split
happened when um they signed up for uh
my video library. I offer a video
library with some gated content. And the
I I had mentioned I was going to be
putting something on there. I was going
to upload something on there.
Apparently, I didn't do it in the
sufficient amount of time that they were
pleased with. So then the email
responses came to you falsely advertised.
advertised.
um you know, you got me to sign up for
something and you conned me and then the
here's the here's the kicker where I
became all bad. Um does this mean that
everything you've said online is also [Laughter]
[Laughter]
false? So So now and I'm not poking fun
at that person. I'm sure that they had
some internal conflict related to this,
but the expression of it was impulsive.
It was disproportionate to the thing. It
could have been simply like, "I've been
waiting for this video. It's not
uploaded yet. I want my money back." I
would have been like, "Here's your
refund. I apologize that you were
disappointed. Um, it's taken me longer
than anticipated to put that up."
There's a complete there's these
inferences about me as a result of their
displeasure. And to the extreme, like
now you're just completely discredited,
right? So that's splitting. I was, you
know, they signed on because I was
great. they signed off because I was bad
versus the gray area thing could have
been a collaborative conversation. Hey,
um when are you going to put that video
up? And if so, I would have given them
an extension. And and that's the thing
is that the lack of collaborative
capacity because of that all or nothing
thing. And you know, maybe one day I
will become a good object again in their
eyes. Maybe I'll do a video where they
they're like, "Oh, yeah." And then it
and then it it'll reverse again. And
again, I'm not poking fun. this is just
a real psychological phenomenon that
takes place. And I I wanted to use a
real a real time um experience to
demonstrate it, right? And and that's a
good example because I see that happen a
lot. You people will agree with 99% of
what you say and then all of a sudden
you say one thing they disagree with in
one video and all of a sudden it negates
everything you ever said. you must be
wrong about everything you ever said
because you said this one thing. And
that is a good example of the all all
black, all white. Yeah. And I like what
you said. It it like it really does in
their mind literally not figuratively.
It literally negates everything else
that you had said prior that was that
was credible to them. It it they they
erase that and eject it and now it's
just all that's left is the bad object.
Right. And I think another thing with
border lines is what I've noticed from
my own anecdotal experience, usually
you'll see them have more issues on the
surface. Like there's going to be issues
like addictions, acting out in other
ways, and they're honest about it. A lot
of times they're more open about maybe
their depression, their anxiety, their
and a lot of people with borderline
think they might be bipolar at first or
bipolar too. And then finally when they
get diagnosed, a lot of people can feel
relieved that at least they now know,
okay, this is why I was feeling the way
I was feeling. But it looks like they
have more issues on the surface than it
does for a lot of narcissists. A lot of
narcissists seem to have a better image
they present to the world, but under the
surface of that is where their issues
are. But the border lines, those issues
are usually front and center a lot of
times. Yeah, agreed. because they can't
necessarily um control their emotional
reactions to things and conceal them so
that it's covert. And I will say um 80%
maybe 90% uh border lines have a
comorbid uh condition that's typically
affecting their mood. So it's either a
mood disorder
um like anxiety or depression or even
bipolar. they could have comorbid, you
know, bipolar um relationship problems,
selfharming tendencies, eating
disorders. These are things that are
typically comorbid. So, they go to seek
treatment for those things because those
things are really afflicting them. They
don't know. I mean, nobody know's going
to just know, hey, I'm um I'm
borderline. Why would why would they,
you know, unless unless they did a lot
of research and and you know, but you
can go through life for a very long time
undiagnosed with something because you
don't know that that's what is going on
with you. And so border lines will go
for uh treatment to for their
symptomatic conditions, but not
necessarily their
characteristic pathology or their
personality uh pathology. So they have
these comorbid conditions like um 80 to
90% of the time. Another thing that's
important to understand though is it's
not an environmental trigger always with
border lines. It's the perception of
being triggered. So you mentioned
bipolar. Bipolar people have um mood
swings obviously. Their mood swings are
autonomous from environmental
experience. They're they're neurological
and they're biological, right? So they
just they do just happen like sort of
like the course of like a cold or a flu.
they start to get symptomatic, it
reaches like a, you know, a peak and
then after a certain amount of time they
go back to their baseline level of
functioning. That doesn't mean that
they're functioning perfectly in between
episodes, but an a mood episode like
that is more autonomous in the sense
that it's it's biologically uh
uh
manifesting. Borderline mood shifts are
not biologically manifesting only.
They're also manifesting through
perceptions within the environment. So
they could have a conversation with
someone, think that it was going one
way, and then be disappointed that it
went another way, and then that could
activate a shift in mood, right? But
it's not because the conversation was a
bad conversation. It's because their
perception of it got, you know,
difficult for them in the moment. And
but what they're going to do is they're
going to externalize the blame to that
person. you made me feel this way, like
you did this. If you wouldn't have said
this, I wouldn't have yelled at you or
broke that thing or cut myself. Um, sort
of like that email, you got me. Those
were the words. You got me to sign up
for this upon false pretenses. I did
that. I I forced their hand. So, in
their mind, I was somehow coercive when
what I really said is, "Yeah, I post
these videos and you should sign up and,
you know, see see if you like them."
There's no there's no coercion there.
But to them, they really feel justified
in accusing me of coercing them. So that
wasn't even a verbal exchange. That was
a that was a text exchange through
email. You know, I think the other thing
I see a lot with border lines is there's
a lot of substance use, a lot of
alcoholism and addictions. And then that
also can, and maybe this is different,
but can they also prompt bipolar
episodes too, right? If you take
stimulants for example, that's going to
cycle a lot of people with bipolar into
a mania phase and then that'll cycle
into a depression at some point. But a
lot of those things can be even if it's
bipolar, it can be triggered by a drug
or drinking, I think, too. Yes,
absolutely. There are substance induced
episodes, mood episodes in in bipolar.
Um, for sure. And and yes, there's a lot
of with with cluster B's in general,
there's a lot of comorbid substance
abuse. So, it's not, you know, making a
distinction between abuse and addiction.
It's not necessarily that they're
addicted to a substance, but they will
excessively abuse one for either the sensation
sensation
um or, you know, they to numb themselves
out. Like border lines certainly do
that. Border lines, you got to remember
we're talking about personality
disorder. We're not talking about um
something related to one thing. We're
talking about the entire operating
system. So when they So when they do
something, they're going to do it in
excess if they're an excessive person,
right? And border lines typically do
things to excess. So spending uh money,
um relationships are accelerated at a
rapid pace. There's an idealization and
a desire to merge right away. Um there's
an there's a desire to cut off right
away. There's no preliminary periods of
these things. And the same goes with
substance abuse. They typically will go
to the point of overdose oftentimes
because they're so excessive with with
the behavior. Sadly, it can almost be
self harm too at that point as well. A
lot of this% Yeah. A lot of substance
use with border lines is is
self-destructive. It's like
self-medicating and then it ends up
being self-destructive. Right. And
before we move on to romantic
relationships with the borderline, I
know I'd mentioned Christina and Lawson
in this um talk before, but she
characterizes the four types of
borderline mothers as she says, but she
fully acknowledges there's plenty of
male border lines too. Most of them are
just in jail like you said because they
never got diagnosed and they act out,
but they act out in violent ways and in
criminal ways a lot of times. But she
calls it the waif, the hermit, uh the
witch and the queen. Do you agree with
that characterization or what do you
think about it? I do I mean I think I
think all subtypes derive from
um heterogeneity. So what I mean by that
is there's never like with borderline
there's nine and again the the DSM is
not the Bible of psychology but it's a
it's a reference guide you know to
classify things but there's nine
criteria for borderline personality
disorder in the latest DSM and there's
not one criterion that is necessary for
the diagnosis. So what that means is as
long as there's five out of the nine, it
can inform a diagnosis, right? But the
presentation will look drastically
different depending on which five out of
those nine are present. So I think those
subtypes are ways, clever ways and I
think necessary ways to make sense of
the varying presentations of borderline.
So, um I would say like the witch
subtype is the one who probably has more
of the hostility and aggression and
callousness. And then, you know, the um
you know, I've also heard the quiet
subtype of borderline. I think that's
the one that most people think of when
they think of borderline now because
they think, "Oh, these people are just
emotionally um distraught because of all
the pain they've endured from the abuse
they've suffered and they're just
disregulated." I don't know that that's
not just complex PTSD misdiagnosed or
misrepresented as border, you know, but
to say that there aren't aggression and
impulsivity and hostility and even
becoming vengeful and sometimes even
sadistic. To say that that doesn't exist
in any heterogeneous presentation of
borderline is just not true. And that's
what would ruffle the feathers there.
And I think Christina and Lawson also
called it it's a butterfly with a sting.
And I think the quiet one would be more
of the waif. I would say that's the one
that seems a little more vulnerable and
helpless. Maybe even someone like Amy
Winehouse. Not to diagnose her or
anything, but that's kind of like what
she would remind me of. And the other
thing I got in a lot of trouble with is
when I had said Joan Crawford, uh, a
borderline quote unquote witch as they
would say. And a lot of people got very
upset at me because said, "No, she must
be a narcissist or she must have
antisocial personality disorder."
Well, I'm going to agree with you.
There you go. Yeah.
Yeah.
So it's just it's possible though it's
possible for them to be abusive and
malicious when you another thing to
consider is the overlapping features and
the um 60% of the time some research
suggests that you know there is more
than one uh personality disorder um in
in individuals or overlapping features
where you almost meet the criteria for
two. So, in my book, The Nature and
Nurture of Narcissism, I talk about my
maternal grandmother. She fit the
criteria for borderline and NPD.
Um, and the reason why that's important
is because it informed why she didn't
um the reverse dicho. She didn't split
because that narcissism was so prominent
that she was very much comfortable with
mistreating people and still playing the
victim, right? But she still had these
perceived um un uh ideas that she was
abandoned even when people were willing
to do her bidding 24 hours a day and
basically act as servants in her court.
She still accused them of abandoning
her. Right? So there was that component
of that vulnerability, but then there
was also this severe hostility where she
did some pretty deplorable things uh to
my mother, to my grandfather, and then
played the victim and everybody just
forgave her and felt sorry for her
because no one knew what these disorders
were. They thought she was really mainly
that people thought she was mentally ill
because it was like she must be ill if
she's doing these things. And a lot of
that was was manipulation.
I think what I hear a lot with kids that
have a borderline parent is they feel as
if they're emotionally held hostage and
a lot of times the borderline parent
will use emotional blackmail guilt trips
because they don't want to be abandoned.
They want that child to always be there
for them on a dime. They'll maybe
manufacture emergencies to have that
happen too. What would be your
suggestions to a child or an adult child
in that dynamic? Well, the guilt trips
are are never ending. I mean, they
really do like I mean, I think that they
not what they see as a reward or a
justification or or justice for
themselves is that somebody else is
feeling bad, which is terrible. Not all
not across the board, but more like the
witch ones for sure. They're not happy
until everyone else is feeling really
unhappy and bad. Um, another thing to
point out though is border lines fear or
are threatened by
um connection just as much as they're fe
they fear or they threaten abandonment.
So, it's not that if you don't abandon
them, they all of a sudden feel better.
Then they'll accuse you of engulfing or
smothering them. So, you can really
never get where you're supposed to be
for them. It's a cons it's a constant
dissatisfaction with you're either too
far away or you don't care enough or
you're too close and you're too much for
me. There's really never a sweet spot
with border lines. That is completely
not true with complex PTSD. There is
there there is the capacity to have
healthy relationships if you have
complex PTSD and you're not worried
about engulfment or um uh abandonment
across the board at all. Um, as far as
infor like what's Yeah, I mean it's I
think the best thing that could that can
take place for a child
um I noticed a lot of adult children of
border lines have never spoken about
their parents to anyone and they
internalize the the blame. So kids
should be encouraged if they have
someone in their life who can support
them whether it's the other parent or
it's a teacher or if it's you know
somebody to be feel give grant
themselves permission as early as
possible to speak about the experiences
without feeling like they're throwing
their parent under the bus. They're just
speaking about their emotional
experiences because you need some you
need an an experience with someone else
who can be consistently there for you
and give you positive regard and give
you generosity and not blame you for
things. You need that experience to
contrast with the borderline parent
experience where they are, you know,
constantly vacasillating between you're
all you're all good and you're all bad.
And that segus pretty well into the
romantic relationships with border lines
too because the pushpull dynamic because
you said the fear of abandonment plus
the fear of engulfment and losing
themselves. Yeah. How do you help a
borderline with that and and how do you
help the people that are on the
receiving end of that? Well, here's the
good news about BPD.
So we we consider personality disorders
um egoonic disorders which means that
for the most part the traits and and the
experience of them in the individual
feels very harmonious with who who they
see themselves as. So they're not trying
to change it because they don't they
feel comfortable in their own skin.
Borderline is the exception. They're
actually egoistonic partially, which
means often times because of those other
occur co-occurring disorders we
mentioned earlier, they don't like
feeling that way. They don't like that
they're um, you know, burning things
down and walking away. They don't want
to live their lives like that all the
time. Their emotion dysregulation can be
treated successfully in in the right
psychotherapy. So, there's a lot of hope
for them if they show up. And it's not
smooth sailing once they show up. I
mean, there's going to be a lot of, you
know, but I I think that they the ones
who are willing to show up to treatment
and if you find if you're if you're
fortunate enough to find a therapist
who's trained in treating these these
disorders through um you know, DBT is
the the kind of gold standard everybody
talks about, but there's also other ones
that are very effective. mentalization
based treatment um schema therapy if
people know how to recognize BPD and
then they know how to treat it um the
prognosis can be good you know it's
again it's an it's a long daunting
process but it's not impossible um in a
lot of individuals who present with with
uh BPD and there are situations where
it's so severe that there's
collaboration will never be achieved but
I do like I do like the fact that um
because of this partial egodistonic
component to it there's there's a lot of
hope for these people and I would
encourage them
to be courageous enough to seek it out
because the egoistonic part that
actually encourages them to get
treatment it actually makes it more
likely I would say because they have all
those unpleasant feelings and I think
that's where it gets complicated for
people that are dating them or married
with them because the borderline can
admit they have issues. They can admit
something's wrong which gives the other
person more hope that oh well they admit
they have an issue. There's a chance but
they still have to like take
accountability and do the action steps
which border lines are more likely to do
in my experience than say narcissists or
others in the cluster B category. But
where would you say to draw the line for
someone that's trying to be dating them
or married to them? What is the line for
someone? And I guess you can't tell
everyone what their line would be, but I
think the line really does depend on
willingness to um try to modify the
behaviors first. Again, we we want to
get the behaviors that are inappropriate
and unacceptable under wraps before we
start dealing with um anything else. I
think that depends on the individual,
how much resiliency they have. I think
some people are more resilient to
tolerating that conflict than others.
But also,
um, we're talking about heterogeneity.
So, it's not that like just because
someone has this diagnosis that the
outcome is going to be the same with
them as it is with another. I mean, it
it it varies drastically. So you'd have
to assess that and also look for
um you know the enduring patterns and
how much your quality of life is
suffering if you decide to stay. Um I
think you're right that they do go and
seek help for other things and so people
have this hope that okay well maybe
things are going to turn around but most
of the time I've seen that the person
who's treating them isn't treating their
BPD. So even if the mood increases a
little bit or the eating disorder gets
you know modified or the substance abuse
gets you know decreased a bit there's
still these pathological traits that
inform their perception of relating. And
so at that point it's like you should
probably give yourself a time frame on
how long how long you're going to
tolerate that if that doesn't get
better. Also, just to be clear,
borderline personality disorder does not
improve in the context of a
relationship, like a personal
relationship. No amount of empathy and
understanding and patience is going to
make somebody become no longer
borderline. Those aren't the
interventions or the approaches to stop
these behaviors. It's just not. I mean,
if that were the case, we could just
love people out of this. And that's just
I know people who love and are devoted
to a fault to people who have, you know,
this disorder and and no amount of of
love and affection and and patience and
and nurturing is going to, you know,
remove that.
And that's a very good point to make
because if you were to listen to
Borderlines, a lot of them would say,
"If only I could find that ideal love,
that one person that's going to be the
Disney fantasy, then everything will be
okay." And it can sound pretty
convincing. And as a man, I have
experienced dating borderline women.
Like I said, and I think one of the
things, and I've gotten push back for
this, too, some borderline women are
very good at appearing to be someone
that like needs to be rescued or saved.
And there are some guys that can be an
appealing thing to them. And yeah,
sometimes it's a narcissist guy too that
wants to swoop in to take power and
control. But I think even other times,
guys are actually like a good dude like
like really want to help this person,
and it becomes a temptation. No, I want
I want to help this person. They seem so
in need of help and they seem so in need
of someone to save them. But what would
you say to the guys in that spot or the
vice versa, a woman like that is wanting
to save the borderline man? Yeah. I
think one of the distinctions that's
important to make is I don't think that
border lines enter into relationships
with this um covert exploitation the way
that narcissists and psychopaths do. I
think they actually do enter into
something with an idealized fantasy
thinking this is going to be this the
solution to all their emotional problems
their emotional you know conflicts but
then once that doesn't meet their
expectations then they can turn on you
and be very manipulative and emotionally
blackmailing and stuff. So I think
that's one thing is I don't think that
they are premeditating like oh you are
prey and I'm I'm really going to I'm
really going to give it to you once once
I have an opportunity. Um I don't that
not that that's an important
distinction. Um it doesn't justify the
backlash you receive after but it
certainly is like they some of like a
lot of them are just truly looking for
and they don't know what is going on
with them internally. So they don't they
don't they're not necessarily uh
premeditating any sort of exploitation.
Um but you do need to look out for
rescuing somebody, you know, because
you're not going to be able to rescue
him. Sometime you mentioned earlier like
if I just find that that that love that
Disneyland fantasy often times they have
found it. There's people who are willing
to go through any length in the world to
to satisfy this person and it's still
not enough, right? So they don't even
know sometimes that the best thing
that's ever happened to them is the the
person that they the relationship that
they are not uh getting along in very
well. So I
think that people people just need to
take things slow with relationships.
There's no shortcut to true intimacy,
you know, and oftentimes borderline
personalities because of their
intensity, they like to really
accelerate the process, you know. let's
get let's merge quickly. And so that's
something that men and women should look
for in partners is what is this um why
where is this urgency to merge so
quickly coming from? You know, pay
attention to that because if it feels
like you're having to, you know, for
like foreclose on your own autonomy or
your own independent life, that's
probably a sign um that things need to
slow down, you know? Right. And and part
of what I was referring to before was a
narcissistic person would want to
exploit and prey on a vulnerable
borderline. That's that's what I admit.
Yes. And and but other just regular
people that are not neuroid diversions
in any way. They still might get the
impulsion to want to rescue or save for
whatever reason. Not just a narcissist
would, right? Anyone might. Narcissists
are notorious for targeting border lines
because they out of the gate they get
idealized. So they get the admiration
and things that they want from somebody
and then when they devalue a borderline
the borderline starts to
self-deprecate, you know, after they
defend themselves and they feel like
they're worthless and then they want to
re earn the affection of the narcissist
again. So the narcissist toys with that
and plays with that until they become an
idealized object again and then the
borderline can become very apologetic
and remorseful and then that cycle
repeats itself. So it's very um I mean I
do want to say we haven't said this yet
borderline some border lines can be very
abusive. They're also abused quite
often you know. I'm not gonna
Absolutely. Yeah. So, so I mean, yeah,
because people sometimes get into the
black and white thinking with that, too.
They think, well, if you ever abuse, it
means you can never be abused. And it's
like, that's not how it works at all.
It's like, no, you can be abused.
Sorry about that background. But it's
like, yeah, you can be abused even if
you have a personality disorder.
Certainly possible. Like, yes. And some
people think you can't though. They
think, oh, no, if you are ever abusive,
it means you can never be the abuser.
And I was like, where the heck did you
get that from? No. Yeah, that's
absolutely not true. Right. And I think
another good thing you mentioned before
is that sense of urgency that I hear a
lot of people with borderline get. It
becomes really a necessity. I must find
this ideal love now. I'm running out of
time. I got to be I got to find this
person. But it's all implicating that
they're not happy on their own. And it's
like if you're going into a relationship
not happy on your own, you're not that's not a good a recipe for a healthy
not a good a recipe for a healthy relationship. That's not a strong
relationship. That's not a strong foundation because you can't expect
foundation because you can't expect someone else to make you happy if you're
someone else to make you happy if you're not already happy on your own. Yeah. I
not already happy on your own. Yeah. I think that I think that Yeah. The good
think that I think that Yeah. The good the distinction there would be that you
the distinction there would be that you you you can't put all of your happiness
you you can't put all of your happiness eggs in that one basket, you know, like
eggs in that one basket, you know, like you like that's the goal of a
you like that's the goal of a relationship isn't for you to be held by
relationship isn't for you to be held by someone else. And border lines really do
someone else. And border lines really do like to be held and contained by someone
like to be held and contained by someone else, right? They like almost want that
else, right? They like almost want that symbiotic connection of like all their
symbiotic connection of like all their needs are being met without having to
needs are being met without having to ask. Um that's not why we enter into
ask. Um that's not why we enter into relationships. We enter into
relationships. We enter into relationships for support and um you
relationships for support and um you know uh companionship, connection, but
know uh companionship, connection, but also we don't lose ourselves in the
also we don't lose ourselves in the other person. And so that merger is and
other person. And so that merger is and that urgency are indicators that the
that urgency are indicators that the other person is, you know, wanting to
other person is, you know, wanting to lose themselves in someone else or find
lose themselves in someone else or find themselves in someone else rather than
themselves in someone else rather than the other person just sort of enhancing
the other person just sort of enhancing the, you know, joyous and positive life
the, you know, joyous and positive life that they've built for themselves, you
that they've built for themselves, you know. So it's not it's never a good idea
know. So it's not it's never a good idea to to depend on somebody for that,
to to depend on somebody for that, right? And we talk a lot about the
right? And we talk a lot about the narcissistic cycle of abuse with
narcissistic cycle of abuse with lovebombing, devalue, discard, Hoover.
lovebombing, devalue, discard, Hoover. What is the borderline equivalent of
What is the borderline equivalent of that? Yeah. So, I don't really think
that? Yeah. So, I don't really think that there's a linear with border lines.
that there's a linear with border lines. It's not really a linear process because
It's not really a linear process because of that reverse dichotomizing. It's sort
of that reverse dichotomizing. It's sort of like it vacasillates between like
of like it vacasillates between like love then hate then love then hate then
love then hate then love then hate then love then hate and sometimes within a
love then hate and sometimes within a given day, you know. Um, so there's not
given day, you know. Um, so there's not really this, it's also there's not this
really this, it's also there's not this intentionality to I'm going to exploit
intentionality to I'm going to exploit this person, they're going to disappoint
this person, they're going to disappoint me, I'm going to devalue, then I'm going
me, I'm going to devalue, then I'm going to discard. That's not what they're
to discard. That's not what they're doing. They're really in the moment
doing. They're really in the moment where you are all bad, they want nothing
where you are all bad, they want nothing to do with you. And then in the and then
to do with you. And then in the and then when they are all bad, they want
when they are all bad, they want everything to do with you. And that
everything to do with you. And that happens all like often, you know. Um,
happens all like often, you know. Um, not all day every day, but but very
not all day every day, but but very frequently. Um, and so that's why it can
frequently. Um, and so that's why it can be difficult to pin it. I don't know if
be difficult to pin it. I don't know if there's any rhyme or reason to it. It's
there's any rhyme or reason to it. It's been referred to as continuously
been referred to as continuously discontinuous.
discontinuous. That's a good way to put it. And I think
That's a good way to put it. And I think another thing I see a lot with border
another thing I see a lot with border lines in relationships is the way they
lines in relationships is the way they triangulate. Now narcissists, I see them
triangulate. Now narcissists, I see them triangulate with others. And a lot of
triangulate with others. And a lot of times it's just to make the other people
times it's just to make the other people jealous and they get maybe a little bit
jealous and they get maybe a little bit of sadistic glee sometimes from seeing
of sadistic glee sometimes from seeing them jealous and uncomfortable. But
them jealous and uncomfortable. But border lines, I've noticed they'll do
border lines, I've noticed they'll do that because they want more love from
that because they want more love from you. Like if they think you're not
you. Like if they think you're not giving them attention or enough love,
giving them attention or enough love, they'll triangulate you with somebody to
they'll triangulate you with somebody to try to get you to love them more. And
try to get you to love them more. And it's an immature attempt to do that. But
it's an immature attempt to do that. But I do see that a lot. Do you see that?
I do see that a lot. Do you see that? Yes. Yeah. Absolutely. Yeah. They want
Yes. Yeah. Absolutely. Yeah. They want um they think they need to use these
um they think they need to use these tactics in order to get their needs met.
tactics in order to get their needs met. And the reason is is because their needs
And the reason is is because their needs are, you know, unreasonable. So they
are, you know, unreasonable. So they have to they they feel like they have to
have to they they feel like they have to resort to these tactics in order to get
resort to these tactics in order to get their needs met. But the re the needs
their needs met. But the re the needs are what really needs to happen is they
are what really needs to happen is they need to learn how to regulate better. If
need to learn how to regulate better. If they self-regulate better, they don't
they self-regulate better, they don't need to do these tactics. You know, I
need to do these tactics. You know, I remember my grandmother would call my
remember my grandmother would call my mom and then my dad and then me and then
mom and then my dad and then me and then my uncle and my aunt and tell tell five
my uncle and my aunt and tell tell five different stories so that those five
different stories so that those five people would clash and argue about
people would clash and argue about something. Why didn't anybody bring her
something. Why didn't anybody bring her food? What do you mean? She said that
food? What do you mean? She said that you were going to do it. No, she said
you were going to do it. No, she said you weren't going to do it. That you
you weren't going to do it. That you were going to do it. Well, why would I
were going to do it. Well, why would I do it? I'm 30 minutes away. You're two
do it? I'm 30 minutes away. You're two minutes away. But it's like I mean
minutes away. But it's like I mean everyone was talking about her like she
everyone was talking about her like she found a way to become on everybody's
found a way to become on everybody's radar but it was the only way she could
radar but it was the only way she could figure out how to do it was to create a
figure out how to do it was to create a lot of conflict between people and and
lot of conflict between people and and and you know create division but she got
and you know create division but she got what she wanted. Everybody was she was
what she wanted. Everybody was she was on the forefront of everybody's mind.
on the forefront of everybody's mind. Yeah. I mean it controls others gives
Yeah. I mean it controls others gives them attention and then everyone felt
them attention and then everyone felt bad for her because they were like oh
bad for her because they were like oh wait is she actually starving them?
wait is she actually starving them? Someone needs like we got to stop
Someone needs like we got to stop arguing and go get her some food right
arguing and go get her some food right now, you know. Right. Right. And they're
now, you know. Right. Right. And they're the center of it all. It makes them feel
the center of it all. It makes them feel important too. It's a way to get
important too. It's a way to get admiration really in a covert way or at
admiration really in a covert way or at least a way to feel important. Yeah. and
least a way to feel important. Yeah. and then everyone felt guilty and then you
then everyone felt guilty and then you know it was so it's not necessarily that
know it was so it's not necessarily that it's always um
it's always um uh from the get-go this idealization
uh from the get-go this idealization devaluation discard uh pattern so much
devaluation discard uh pattern so much as they probably do oftentimes go into
as they probably do oftentimes go into relationship prospects with good
relationship prospects with good intentions and hope that this is going
intentions and hope that this is going to be the thing to save them and then it
to be the thing to save them and then it falls short and then all of these other
falls short and then all of these other um these emotional blackmailing and
um these emotional blackmailing and manipulative tactics result from that
manipulative tactics result from that disappointment.
disappointment. Right. Now, do you ever see things such
Right. Now, do you ever see things such as mood stabilizers helping people with
as mood stabilizers helping people with borderline?
borderline? Not for the borderline uh just bipolar
Not for the borderline uh just bipolar with that. Yeah. I mean, if there's a
with that. Yeah. I mean, if there's a comorbid mood disorder, you know, I
comorbid mood disorder, you know, I think it can stabilize some symptoms,
think it can stabilize some symptoms, but again, when we're talking about
but again, when we're talking about personality, we're talking about
personality, we're talking about characteristics, traits. We're not
characteristics, traits. We're not talking about
talking about um symptoms that you know can be
um symptoms that you know can be alleviated through an intervention like
alleviated through an intervention like that. Most of the research on borderline
that. Most of the research on borderline and this will probably get some push
and this will probably get some push back here but I'm talking about re
back here but I'm talking about re research published in 2025 from
research published in 2025 from individuals who've opened clinics
individuals who've opened clinics dedicated to the treatment of this
dedicated to the treatment of this disorder. They don't
disorder. They don't necessarily find any benefit to
necessarily find any benefit to psychopharmarmacology related to the
psychopharmarmacology related to the treatment of this unless there's a
treatment of this unless there's a comorbid condition where some anxiety or
comorbid condition where some anxiety or depressive symptoms can be you know uh
depressive symptoms can be you know uh contained or treated in in addition but
contained or treated in in addition but okay and that's good to know too and I
okay and that's good to know too and I think the last thing I wanted to ask you
think the last thing I wanted to ask you about this what do you think is the best
about this what do you think is the best way to tell the difference between a
way to tell the difference between a covert narcissist and borderline Why?
covert narcissist and borderline Why? Yeah, that's a good that's a good
Yeah, that's a good that's a good question. Um, again, I think you kind of
question. Um, again, I think you kind of you kind of hit on it earlier where the
you kind of hit on it earlier where the emotional expression or dissatisfaction
emotional expression or dissatisfaction is typically you can't con you can't
is typically you can't con you can't conceal it often times with border lines
conceal it often times with border lines because if there's this there's this
because if there's this there's this impulsivity and this the emotional
impulsivity and this the emotional instability is it's kind of worn on
instability is it's kind of worn on their sleeve. So, it's not it's not
their sleeve. So, it's not it's not hidden or contained, you know, it's it's
hidden or contained, you know, it's it's disregulated. A covert narcissist can be
disregulated. A covert narcissist can be very much if they're striving to achieve
very much if they're striving to achieve something from you, they can very much
something from you, they can very much conceal their emotions for a very long
conceal their emotions for a very long time. Even if they feel like they want
time. Even if they feel like they want to rage at you, they can still keep it
to rage at you, they can still keep it under wraps if they feel like it's going
under wraps if they feel like it's going to benefit them too. And so, that
to benefit them too. And so, that element of control of that, I think, is
element of control of that, I think, is a good indicator of the like the
a good indicator of the like the distinctions. Okay. And before I let you
distinctions. Okay. And before I let you go, Peter, anything new coming up for
go, Peter, anything new coming up for you? Any new courses, uh, books or any
you? Any new courses, uh, books or any other new content stuff coming up? Yeah,
other new content stuff coming up? Yeah, I'm working or I'm actually working with
I'm working or I'm actually working with um, uh, a co-f facilitator um, stronger
um, uh, a co-f facilitator um, stronger than before coach. She's known as Lisa
than before coach. She's known as Lisa um, for like a trauma bond recovery
um, for like a trauma bond recovery program that we're we're co-f
program that we're we're co-f facilitating. Um it's like a 12-week
facilitating. Um it's like a 12-week program that's like individual work and
program that's like individual work and then there's discussion groups once a
then there's discussion groups once a week. So that next one is coming up on
week. So that next one is coming up on June 11th and then we're going to have
June 11th and then we're going to have multiple co cohorts of that. Um I am
multiple co cohorts of that. Um I am currently working on a new book. Um
currently working on a new book. Um probably going to be out in the next uh
probably going to be out in the next uh four to six months. Um, and then I'm
four to six months. Um, and then I'm working on the uh audible version of the
working on the uh audible version of the traumatic cognitive dissonance book
traumatic cognitive dissonance book which should be out within a few weeks.
which should be out within a few weeks. And people can find that course on your
And people can find that course on your website or they can find it via your
website or they can find it via your Instagram. Yeah, there's a link on my
Instagram. Yeah, there's a link on my Instagram handle, Dr. Peter Serno, and
Instagram handle, Dr. Peter Serno, and then um uh stronger than before coach
then um uh stronger than before coach has the
has the the link as well on her. Okay.
the link as well on her. Okay. Well, and I think the cliffhanger for
Well, and I think the cliffhanger for the people here, I think the next time
the people here, I think the next time we talk, we'll talk about uh another
we talk, we'll talk about uh another professional that made a video about the
professional that made a video about the 80% almost 80% genetics or or narcissism
80% almost 80% genetics or or narcissism is genetic component. And I think that
is genetic component. And I think that whole video that was made could deserve
whole video that was made could deserve an entire breakdown as well. So, I think
an entire breakdown as well. So, I think that would be a good thing to talk about
that would be a good thing to talk about the next time we speak. Absolutely.
the next time we speak. Absolutely. Looking forward to that one. I'm going
Looking forward to that one. I'm going to clarify a lot of things.
to clarify a lot of things. That'll be a good one. I mean, and I'd
That'll be a good one. I mean, and I'd be open to having you both on at the
be open to having you both on at the same time. That'd be great. And I'd also
same time. That'd be great. And I'd also thought about the same with Dr. Simon,
thought about the same with Dr. Simon, too, trying to get Dr. Simon and you on
too, trying to get Dr. Simon and you on as well at the same time at some point
as well at the same time at some point if you'd ever be interested in doing
if you'd ever be interested in doing that. Well, I'd be more than interested.
that. Well, I'd be more than interested. I'd also be a bit nervous because he's
I'd also be a bit nervous because he's he's kind of one of my heroes. So, that
he's kind of one of my heroes. So, that would be uh uncomfortably um exciting.
would be uh uncomfortably um exciting. Yeah. Yeah. So, I mean, I'll try to I'll
Yeah. Yeah. So, I mean, I'll try to I'll try to set up both of those at a point,
try to set up both of those at a point, too, but I think the first one would be
too, but I think the first one would be just addressing that first video first,
just addressing that first video first, then we take it from there. Absolutely.
then we take it from there. Absolutely. That would be great. All right, Peter,
That would be great. All right, Peter, thanks again for coming on the show.
thanks again for coming on the show. It's always a pleasure. Always a
It's always a pleasure. Always a pleasure. Thank you for having me again.
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