0:02 Welcome to the Hubberman Lab podcast,
0:03 where we discuss science and
0:10 I'm Andrew Huberman and I'm a professor
0:13 of neurobiology and opthalmology at
0:15 Stanford School of Medicine. My guest
0:18 today is Michael Easter. Michael Easter
0:20 is a professor at the University of
0:22 Nevada, Las Vegas, and a world-renowned
0:24 writer. His recent work has focused on
0:26 how modern conveniences undermine our
0:28 mental and our physical health. And as
0:30 importantly, the daily, weekly, monthly,
0:32 and yearly steps we can all take to not
0:34 just offset the damages of those
0:36 conveniences, but to continue to grow
0:38 and improve our ability to focus, to do
0:40 meaningful and creative work, and to
0:42 derive deeper connection with others.
0:44 One of the reasons Michael Easter is on
0:46 this podcast is that his book, The
0:48 Comfort Crisis, changed my daily life.
0:50 The comfort crisis made me realize that
0:52 every activity available to us, easy or
0:54 challenging, destructive or
0:56 constructive, can and should be viewed
0:57 through the lens of whether it spends
1:00 our dopamine reserves or invests them in
1:02 a worthwhile way. This is a key
1:04 distinction that we don't often hear
1:05 about, but it's one that can help you
1:07 access much greater levels of focus and
1:10 motivation to be able to avoid and get
1:12 over addictive or compulsive behaviors.
1:13 And it also brings about greater meaning
1:15 and depth of connection to your
1:17 relationships and leisure time. During
1:18 today's discussion, Michael and I
1:20 explore these ideas and their practical
1:22 implementation, including how you can
1:24 tailor them to your own life. He
1:26 explains how our choices in the physical
1:28 world and in the online world shape us
1:30 over time and how to make better choices
1:32 about both on a daily basis. He also
1:34 provides the practical steps of how to
1:36 get mentally stronger. You know, we hear
1:37 about getting mentally stronger a lot,
1:39 but he explains exactly how to do that,
1:41 as well as how to live with a pervasive
1:43 sense of gratitude. I'm certain that
1:45 everyone, young, old, male, female,
1:47 maybe you're driven or maybe you're more
1:49 laid-back type of person, will benefit
1:51 from and be changed by the conversation
1:53 with Michael Easter. The information and
1:55 tools he offers and shares are that
1:57 good. Before we begin, I'd like to
1:58 emphasize that this podcast is separate
2:00 from my teaching and research roles at
2:02 Stanford. It is however part of my
2:03 desire and effort to bring zerocost to
2:05 consumer information about science and
2:07 science related tools to the general
2:09 public. In keeping with that theme,
2:11 today's episode does include sponsors.
2:13 And now for my discussion with Michael
2:15 Easter. Michael Easter, welcome. Thanks
2:17 for having me, man. You've changed my
2:20 life. Really? You have. Tell me more.
2:22 You've changed my behavior on a daily
2:26 basis. So, a ex-girlfriend of mine who
2:28 lives in Colorado and I were in a
2:31 discussion about the best place to live
2:34 and raise kids. And she grew up in the
2:38 mountains of Colorado. And she had just
2:40 listened to your book, uh, The Comfort
2:43 Crisis. and she was saying I think this
2:46 is the reason why people in her hometown
2:50 are so mentally robust into their 70s,
2:52 80s, even 90s. Her grandparents were
2:54 really robust. I think they lived into
2:58 their 90s or late 80s at least. Uh and
3:00 we talked about her childhood a bit
3:03 around this and she said that her mom
3:05 actually used to take her and put her in
3:07 a basket and put her into the river and
3:09 just send her down river to a friend's
3:10 house. And I mean this is the kind of
3:12 stuff that nowadays you like, you know,
3:14 parents like lose their mind. Yeah. Like
3:18 Moses like Exactly. um and that she, you
3:20 know, grew up in cold water in the
3:22 morning and um and of course skiing and
3:23 doing all the things they do in
3:25 Colorado, but she was absolutely
3:29 convinced that the uh the sort of bodily
3:32 expectation of daily activity, meaning
3:34 just a sort of level of energy and
3:38 almost stress if she didn't um get a ton
3:41 of outdoor movement every day, um was
3:43 determined by that early upbringing of
3:45 just being outdoors almost all the time
3:47 and doing hard things and experiencing
3:49 cold and things of that sort. So, uh, I
3:53 read the book um, and started doing hard
3:55 things on a regular basis, mostly
3:58 rocking, but it has been a few years
4:00 since I've had a really big adventure,
4:02 and we'll talk about big adventures that
4:05 include some actual danger. And I make
4:08 it a point each week to write down one
4:10 thing that I'm going to do that is truly
4:12 uncomfortable. So, thank you for
4:13 changing my life for the better. It's uh
4:15 transformed my mental health and I was
4:18 already feeling really good. Amazing. I
4:20 love that. It's great. So, let's talk
4:24 about modern life versus um ancient
4:26 nervous systems. Yeah. Right. I think
4:29 this is um a big theme in in your
4:32 writing and your life. Um what do you
4:35 think the human brain and nervous system
4:37 were quote unquote designed to do? I'm
4:40 not implying uh the the origins of the
4:42 design. That's a different podcast. But
4:44 what do you think the human species is
4:47 really organized to do and how do you
4:49 think that fits into modern life or
4:51 doesn't fit into modern life? Well, I
4:53 think that we evolved in a context where
4:55 we had to do hard things all the time.
4:57 Life was uncomfortable, right? You were
4:59 out, you spent 100% of your time
5:02 outdoors. Uh it was often too hot, too
5:04 cold. You were physically active all
5:06 day. People walked something like 20,000
5:08 steps a day on average. And by the way,
5:09 as you were taking those steps, you're
5:11 usually carrying something heavy, right?
5:12 This could be your child. It could be
5:15 tools. It could be an animal that you
5:16 took down. You had to carry the meat
5:19 back to camp. You also had long periods
5:21 of downtime that were unstimulated where
5:23 you would talk to other people face to
5:25 face. I mean, life was just it was effortful.
5:27 effortful.
5:30 It was challenging and you had to do
5:32 those challenges and go through those
5:35 discomforts in order to survive. And I
5:38 think that the sort of uh promise and
5:40 peril of modern life is that we no
5:43 longer have to do these hard challenging
5:46 things to survive. Right? If you want
5:49 food, you can go to the gas station on
5:51 the corner and get it. There's just
5:53 ample food. I think we throw out about a
5:56 third of the food that we produce. Um
5:58 physically, we obviously have to do a
6:00 lot less physical activity to survive.
6:02 If you want to go somewhere, you just
6:03 hop in your car, you walk across the
6:06 parking lot. Um, you could actually just
6:08 exist in your house and not really move,
6:10 right? You could like do Uber Eats for
6:12 all your food. You could work behind the
6:13 screen. So, we've really removed that
6:17 physical discomfort out of our life. Um,
6:18 and I also think, you know, even
6:20 something like boredom, like boredom is
6:24 an uncomfortable thing. And now when we
6:25 feel boredom, we have this like very
6:27 easy, effortless escape from it in the
6:29 form of a phone. temperature swings,
6:32 right? We can live at 72 degrees. I
6:34 mean, this list goes on and on and on. I
6:35 could answer this question for for like
6:37 hours, but I think that listeners get
6:39 the point that we evolved in these
6:41 environments of discomfort,
6:44 and now we have shifted over to
6:46 environments that are much more
6:48 comfortable. Now, let me be clear. This
6:50 is a good shift in the grand scheme of
6:52 time and space, but it does come with
6:54 problems because you find that because
6:56 we're involved in environments of
6:58 discomfort, I think humans um are sort
7:01 of wired to do the next easiest, most
7:03 comfortable thing because that would
7:05 have served us in the past, right? In
7:07 the past, you didn't want to move too
7:08 much just for the sake of it because you
7:11 wanted to conserve calories. If you had
7:12 the opportunity to eat a little more
7:14 food, you would probably do that because
7:15 that would give you a survival
7:17 advantage, right? you put on some fat.
7:19 You didn't want to spend too much time
7:21 if it was too much too cold or
7:24 something. Um, and so we're wired to do
7:26 the easy thing, but now we end up in
7:28 this sort of easier world. And those
7:30 sort of instincts we have, I think,
7:33 backfire. So, call this an evolutionary
7:35 mismatch really.
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10:19 As a neurobiologist and in some sense a
10:21 comparative neurobiologist, I like to
10:23 step back and say, you know, what what
10:25 is a species uh, you know, trying to
10:27 optimize for? It sounds like a lot of
10:29 what we were trying to optimize for
10:32 throughout human history is to limit
10:36 discomfort. Um, and of course ensure the
10:38 species persists, so reproduction is
10:41 key. And then making sure that our
10:43 offspring, which need a lot of care over
10:44 a long period of time compared to other
10:46 species, are taken care of. Like when
10:48 you step back as like pure evolutionary
10:51 lens, um, it to me seems pretty much
10:53 that simple. Uh, and all the rest is
10:56 noise as they say. So if our goal in
10:58 human evolution is to rid ourselves of
11:00 discomfort and make things easier and
11:04 safer and propagate the species, then
11:07 why at some point is more comfort bad
11:09 for us? There are side effects that
11:11 happen, right? Um and when you look at
11:15 most of the diseases that kill us today,
11:16 they are a result of usually
11:18 overconumption of food, right? We eat
11:21 too much uh far more than we often need.
11:23 Um we don't move enough. there's a lot
11:25 tied to sort of metabolic health. And so
11:28 I think that I put this in the I like to
11:30 say these are good problems to have in
11:32 the grand scheme of time and space,
11:36 right? I would prefer to have my problem
11:39 be that oh I have to go exercise or
11:40 something to take care of my physical
11:42 activity than the fact that like oh I
11:44 have to I have to go hunt and gather
11:47 every single day like to get my food.
11:49 But I do think that they are problems
11:52 that we need to solve. the fact that you
11:54 know a lot of our modern problems are
11:56 driven by the fact that our environments
11:58 have become so comfortable. Does that
11:59 answer your question? Yeah, that that
12:01 answers the question. I I heard someone
12:03 say recently that a lot of what exists
12:05 now in health and wellness is just
12:07 trying to bring the outdoors indoors. So
12:09 I I've tried to persuade as everyone
12:10 knows people to get outside in the
12:11 morning get sunlight in their eyes for
12:13 all sorts of reasons. Um but you know
12:15 the whole business with red light you
12:17 know long wavelength light infrared
12:19 light you can use one of those panels it
12:21 can be quite useful. There's also a lot
12:23 of long wavelength light coming from the
12:26 sun. Um, fresh air, we could debate
12:28 grounding. Um, but many people believe
12:32 it's helpful. Uh, green spaces. I mean,
12:34 kind of agree with this idea that, you
12:35 know, so much of what we're encouraging
12:38 people to do is just, um, mimic doing
12:40 what we used to do all the time. It's
12:43 what life used to be, right? We, like I
12:45 said, we spend 100% of our time in the
12:47 outdoors. We evolved in the outdoors.
12:48 That is kind of like our natural
12:50 environment. And I think um to continue
12:52 with this example, when you put us in
12:55 four walls where we don't get that
12:57 outdoor exposure, some interesting
12:58 psychological things start to happen
13:01 that probably aren't that good for us.
13:04 Um and this you can apply this idea to
13:05 everything like I said like even
13:08 physical activity. It's like exercise is
13:12 a great example to me. No one exercised
13:14 in the past, right? Exercise is
13:15 something that we made up basically
13:17 after the industrial revolution because
13:19 what happened is we get these jobs where
13:22 now we're much more sedentary and we
13:24 start to realize, oh, these people who
13:26 have the jobs where they sit all day,
13:28 they're getting these strange new health
13:31 problems that we've never seen. And yet
13:32 the people who are kind of moving around
13:33 all day still in their jobs, they don't
13:36 seem to get those problems. So maybe
13:38 activity is the difference maker. Hey,
13:39 you guys that are sitting all day, I
13:41 want you to just go move around for the
13:42 sake of it. No, there's no actual point
13:44 to it. Just like move around for the
13:46 sake of it. That'll improve your health.
13:48 And this becomes this idea of of
13:50 exercise, movement for the sake of it,
13:54 which is this kind of strange idea in
13:57 the grand scheme of time and space. But
13:59 it does make sense in the context of a
14:01 world where the average American is
14:04 walking, you know, 4,000 to 6,000 steps
14:06 a day. That's how we get our activities.
14:09 We have to manufacture it effectively.
14:11 And I will say though to continue with
14:14 your example about how we sort of uh
14:16 mimic what we used to do in the past. Um
14:18 I do think that when we we try to solve
14:20 for these problems sometimes uh the way
14:22 we do it is sort of interesting. We go
14:24 okay if we need to move more well what
14:28 if we got um what if we got a belt and
14:30 we put a motor on it and a person could
14:33 just run on this belt in this air
14:35 conditioned building. Oh, and and then
14:36 we'll put a television there, and that
14:39 way you can just watch CNN blare insane
14:41 information into your face the entire
14:43 time and be totally distracted. Yeah,
14:46 that sounds like a good idea. But when
14:49 we do that, what are we missing? So,
14:51 when a person runs outdoors on the other
14:53 hand, let's say it's on a trail, well,
14:55 now you have all these other forms of
14:57 discomfort and stimulation that are
15:00 coming your way. So, one, you've got the
15:02 physical activity, obviously. But two is
15:04 that the trail isn't this perfectly
15:06 predictable thing, right? If I'm on the
15:08 treadmill, I can go, okay, 1% incline,
15:10 I'm going to run six miles an hour, and
15:11 I just do that. I don't have to think
15:13 about it. Well, the trail, it's going to
15:14 go up and down. You're going to have
15:16 rocks and ruts you have to navigate
15:18 under. That's a mental challenge. You're
15:19 also going to have to think about the
15:21 weather, right now. Oh, I have to deal
15:23 with the temperature changes. Oh, that
15:25 looks like a storm might be coming in.
15:27 There's also so much more that you take
15:30 in from the environment. You run through
15:32 trees. You run into open spaces. And
15:34 that has, I think, a real emotional and
15:37 I would say even spiritual benefit from
15:39 that nature. You're going to see totally
15:42 random things, right? Like my favorite
15:44 thing is when I go run on trails in Las
15:46 Vegas and like you see that random
15:48 coyote or the big horn sheep and it's
15:50 just like this is it. Mountain lion.
15:52 Mountain lion. Right. Have you Have you
15:53 seen mountain lions? I've seen them
15:54 other places, but not in Vegas,
15:56 unfortunately. Most people would say
15:57 fortunately, I'm on the other side.
15:58 Like, mountain lion's not going to hurt
15:59 you. But if you get to see one, that's
16:01 an opportunity. I don't know that video
16:03 of that kid in Colorado, you know, where
16:05 it's chasing him. Oh, yeah. Or or
16:06 stalking him. And we could talk about
16:09 that. I totally agree. I think that um
16:12 optic flow that uh of the sort that you
16:13 get out when you're hiking or walking or
16:16 cycling or um more dangerous activity
16:20 like motorcycling out ofdoors um we know
16:21 that it has a powerful effect in
16:23 suppressing some of the areas of the
16:24 brain involved in fear. I don't know if
16:26 you're familiar with this literature,
16:28 but Francine Shapiro, who was um
16:31 actually ran her clinic behind Stanford
16:34 uh for a while, who came up with EMDR,
16:36 this eye movement uh desensization uh
16:39 reprocessing for trauma, um came up with
16:42 that on a walk and developed the lateral
16:44 eye movements that are the cornerstone
16:46 of EMDR as a way to bring the walk into
16:50 her clinic. Interesting. Because and
16:52 then for years I would hear about this
16:54 and I thought it was complete garbage. I
16:55 was like this there's as a
16:57 neuroscientist I was like no. And people
16:59 would say oh you know the eye movements
17:00 mimic rapid eye movements in sleep
17:02 that's why it works. And no they don't
17:04 look anything like the rapid eye
17:05 movements in sleep by the way. They'd
17:07 say oh you know it's um creating cross
17:09 hemispheric uh activation of the two
17:12 sides of the brain. No I mean you get
17:14 that if you have binocular vision you
17:16 know vision scientists. I was like no
17:18 that's ridiculous. But and somewhere
17:22 around 2016 to 2020 there were four
17:25 papers and then an additional paper in
17:27 animal uh an animal study. So some
17:28 there's a mix of animal and human data
17:31 showing that when um animals or humans
17:34 engage in this uh lateralized repetitive
17:36 eye movement back and forth that it
17:38 suppresses among other areas the
17:40 amydala. So amydala activation, you
17:42 know, troughs. And so there's something
17:44 about forward ambulation, nerds speak
17:47 for walking and running, right, that um
17:49 suppresses the the fear areas of the
17:51 brain. And I'm convinced that this is a
17:53 a a central reason why movement out
17:56 ofdoors is so fundamentally different on
18:00 our psyche um and our level of calm uh
18:02 as compared to running on a treadmill or
18:04 um god forbid just sitting at a desk all
18:06 day. Yeah. And that makes sense. And I
18:07 would wonder evolutionarily if that
18:11 would be um for hunting. So something
18:12 like persistence hunting, right? That's
18:15 a dangerous act. Yes, you have to hunt
18:16 every single day. That's how you're
18:18 going to survive to get that food. At
18:19 the same time, it's still very perilous,
18:20 right? You're not walking down to
18:23 Walmart and getting stuff. And so if you
18:25 had that fear suppression in the context
18:27 of an act that is somewhat dangerous,
18:29 that would probably give you an
18:31 advantage to actually end up taking down
18:34 that animal. Huge. There's a a video of
18:36 a um some hunters. It appears to be in
18:38 Africa. Forgive me uh for not knowing
18:42 exactly where it was. Um
18:45 prepared to essentially walk towards a
18:47 group of lions that have have are on a
18:49 kill and the lions look up from the kill
18:51 and there are these hunters walking like
18:54 with spears vertical, right? And the the
18:55 lions are like, "Wait, what's going on
18:57 here?" You know, typically this is the
18:59 other the scenario is the other way
19:00 around. Are you familiar with this
19:02 video? No. and that the hunters, they're
19:03 translating into the captions and
19:05 assuming it's accurate. They're saying,
19:06 you know, it's key that we just keep
19:08 moving forward. And that confuses the
19:10 lions and they think that, you know,
19:12 that because we're continuing to look at
19:14 them and move forward, they'll move off
19:17 the kill. But if we avert our our gaze,
19:19 then they won't and we can get attacked
19:20 and it's happened before. And they
19:22 literally walk these lions off the kill.
19:24 And the lions are, you can see that
19:25 they're they're perplexed, but like
19:27 they're like, "These guys aren't afraid
19:28 at all." And they just start backing
19:30 away. And a couple of them are
19:32 negotiating in their minds, you can see,
19:34 and they basically walk these lines off
19:37 the kill and take the kill. And there's
19:38 so much going on there that but it
19:40 relates to what we're talking about. But
19:42 forward ambulation in the context of
19:44 hunting, I I I agree with you. I think
19:47 it could have um huge implications. Also
19:50 a great metaphor for life right there,
19:51 right? It's like just keep moving
19:54 forward. If you just kind of focus on
19:57 the kill as it were and just keep moving
20:00 forward, don't hesitate. Like that can
20:02 get you pretty far. So you're a writer.
20:05 Yeah. But you get into the outdoors a
20:09 lot. I do. And you do hard scary things
20:13 on purpose on Yeah. So I'm curious about
20:15 the um the younger Michael Easter. When
20:17 you were a kid, were you the kid that
20:18 would would like hold on to the
20:20 firecracker to the very last second?
20:21 Were you the kid that was like, "Let's
20:23 jump that roof into the pool." I'm not
20:24 giving suggestions here, but I I knew
20:26 kids like that. They usually were named
20:28 Johnny for whatever reason. There's a
20:31 correlation there. Were you that kid or
20:34 were you the the writer kid? So, I was
20:35 not the kid that would hold the
20:38 firecracker to the last second. Um, jump
20:40 from the second story into the pool. And
20:43 I'm still not that person.
20:45 I'm a person where if I had a good
20:48 reason, what what sort of bigger thing
20:51 is holding that firecracker till the
20:53 last end going to give me then I'm
20:56 perfectly willing to accept that risk.
20:59 Okay. So, the things that I do that um
21:00 might be considered dangerous or challenging,
21:02 challenging,
21:04 I always assume there's going to be a greater
21:05 greater
21:08 reward at the end. You know, I'm not
21:09 just doing something hard for the sake
21:12 of doing something hard. Think about it
21:15 like you're skateboarding. Okay. As you
21:17 were learning how to skateboard, I'm
21:19 sure you fell a lot. Yeah. All the time.
21:21 You banged yourself up, got all these
21:23 scuffs on your arm, but the point wasn't
21:25 to fall. No.
21:28 Falling, however, was something that
21:30 came as you got better as a
21:32 skateboarder, right? So, the point is
21:33 not to fall. The point is to go, okay,
21:35 what is the overall goal? be better as a
21:37 skateboarder and in the process I'm
21:38 probably going to have to do some things
21:40 that maybe bang me up a little bit that
21:42 have some element of danger but to focus
21:44 on that overall goal. So, I'd say I've
21:47 always been um like that. And I
21:51 personally find um as a journalist, I
21:54 mean, I read a lot of studies. I speak
21:55 to experts. I call people like you who
21:58 have a PhD, pick their brain. Um but I
22:00 also find that um sometime I get the
22:02 best information and can better process
22:05 it and put it into a narrative that um
22:07 someone can identify with and maybe
22:08 learn from it more if I have if I
22:10 actually go to the source and I have a
22:12 story around that. And sometimes for me
22:15 going to the source leads me into places
22:17 that are a little bit I would say off
22:18 the beaten path maybe. Yeah. Sometimes I
22:20 go to labs you know and it's there's no
22:22 danger there. Um plenty of coffee nice
22:24 and air conditioned. Um nothing's going
22:25 to go wrong. But you know my work has
22:27 taken me to some war zones to the middle
22:31 of the jungle in the Amazon. Um I went
22:33 up to the Arctic for 30 days. I just
22:36 completed this long hike in the middle
22:38 of nowhere Utah. Um, and I do find that
22:41 on those trips, that's where you start
22:44 to peel back the deeper layers of
22:47 whatever idea I'm trying to communicate.
22:48 So, I think that there's a big
22:50 difference between um intellectual
22:52 understanding and experiential
22:54 understanding. And it's that
22:56 experiential understanding like I want
22:58 to get to the heart of that. I want to
23:00 get to the heart of that because if I
23:02 can communicate that, I have a higher
23:04 probability of getting a person who
23:07 reads my work to perhaps take an action
23:09 that could improve their life. And it
23:10 doesn't have to be big. I'm not
23:12 suggesting people have to go to the
23:14 jungle or go up to the Arctic, but I am
23:17 saying start where you're at and do
23:18 something that's maybe a little bit out
23:20 of your comfort zone, maybe a little bit
23:23 of a challenge, and see how it goes. Oh,
23:26 you didn't die. Great. Maybe try it the
23:28 next day and the next day. And so by
23:30 sort of continuously pushing that edge,
23:32 I think that people find that you don't
23:34 fall off the edge, the edge tends to
23:37 expand. And as the edge expands, you end
23:39 up a better person.
23:40 Yeah, I definitely want to talk about
23:43 your 2% rule and and some of the other
23:45 um actionable items that uh you've
23:47 delineated in your books and elsewhere
23:50 in your in your Substack.
23:53 I want to sort of um it's not a
23:55 challenge. It's a it's a question about
23:58 okay if humans have introduced so many
24:00 comforts to their lives that uh small
24:04 things feel uncomfortable like for me um
24:06 I like flying places but I don't like
24:10 airports. Um I I travel I travel with a
24:12 lot of supplements. I'm always secondary
24:14 screened. I don't check luggage. And
24:16 it's funny because um uh it's such a
24:18 small thing, right, to wait for your bag
24:20 to be secondary screened. But you know
24:22 these things can become annoyances. you
24:24 know, we're human and I I love to laugh
24:26 at myself uh when I get annoyed about
24:28 these little things. You go, "Oh, like
24:29 this thing bothered me or something."
24:32 You know, it's um so if we lower our
24:33 threshold for what we consider
24:35 challenging, and I'm making myself the
24:38 the the butt of the joke here, but it's
24:39 pretty serious if you look out and
24:42 think, okay, you know, some people that
24:44 they're hearing us talk about doing hard
24:46 things, but for many people, even though
24:50 there's so many comforts, um life feels
24:53 hard. It's like work is hard. Uh, you
24:55 know, things are expensive. Um, it's
24:57 hard to get enough sleep. Uh, everyone's
24:58 always blaring at us at at all the
25:00 things we're supposed to be doing. The
25:02 the world seems unstable. So, I think
25:04 many people already feel like they're
25:06 inundated with challenge even though
25:08 we're talking about the the creature
25:11 comforts that we all enjoy. So, if
25:13 somebody wants to start exploring
25:15 leaning into discomfort in the way that
25:17 grows them and actually makes those
25:19 other discomforts that we're talking
25:21 about kind of dissolve away, h how
25:24 should they start to go about that? So,
25:27 a couple things um come to mind and I'm
25:29 trying to think how to get into it and
25:32 what I think that I will um use is an
25:33 example of myself and then I'll kind of
25:35 unpack that and I'll unpack it at a
25:36 level um where we talk about something
25:38 more it's kind of a big challenge and
25:40 then also something like people can use
25:42 every day. So, I'll give you the example
25:44 of um for the comfort crisis I go and I
25:47 spend 30 days in the Arctic, a little
25:49 more than 30 days. Now, when I fly up
25:52 there, I fly from uh Las Vegas to
25:54 Anchorage, Anchorage to Katsub, which is
25:56 this little town just 20 miles above the
25:58 Arctic Circle. And then from Katsub, you
26:00 get in a plane that is about the size of
26:02 a pack of gum. And you take that plane
26:04 out, you know, more than 100 miles into
26:06 the Arctic and it drops you off. Now,
26:09 when I get on that plane from Vegas,
26:11 it's like a 747.
26:14 And I'm like you. I hate flying, right?
26:17 Because seats are too small and cramped.
26:19 Plane's too hot. The movies in the seat
26:22 back, they suck, right? The coffee not
26:24 very good. There's usually a baby
26:26 crying. If I need to go to the bathroom,
26:28 bathroom's totally cramped. Like, flying
26:30 is just terrible. I'm like, flying is
26:31 the worst.
26:34 And then I go spend this 30 days in the
26:36 middle of the Arctic, right? So, if I
26:37 want to drink anything, I got to hike
26:40 down to a stream and I got to carry the
26:42 heavy water bags back up to camp. I am
26:46 freezing cold the entire freaking time.
26:48 If I want to go to the bathroom, I have
26:51 to hike out on the tundra and I have to
26:52 bring the rifle because there's grizzly
26:56 bears. Uh, I'm starving the entire time.
26:59 Uh, if I want to get warm, it requires
27:01 picking up firewood, of which there's
27:03 not many, hauling it back. Like,
27:04 everything is hard. Everything is
27:06 uncomfortable. That whole experience for
27:07 the whole month.
27:10 So then when I get onto the plane that
27:14 goes from the Arctic back to Las Vegas,
27:15 it's like, what do you think my
27:17 experience of that flight was like? Pure
27:20 luxury. Holy Greatest thing that
27:22 ever happened to me, right? It's like
27:24 that chair. I had sat in a real chair
27:25 for more than a month. I was like, "This
27:28 is so comfortable."
27:29 Coffee was hot. I'm like, "This is the
27:31 best thing I've ever drank." I had like
27:34 12 bags of pretzels, right? The crying
27:36 baby. I'm like, "Oh yeah, just hand me
27:39 that baby. I got it." Movies in the seat
27:42 back. Like it was so boring up there
27:44 that we were reading the labels on our
27:46 energy bars. And so when you show me
27:50 Fast and the Furious like 79, it's like
27:52 this is the greatest thing I've ever
27:54 seen. And then when I go to the
27:57 bathroom, right, not only do I not have
27:58 to take the rifle, right, that would
28:01 have been problematic on the plane. Um,
28:05 but I hit this button in this bathroom,
28:08 this metal thing, little red button, and
28:11 hot running water comes out of a faucet
28:14 and hits my hands. I had hot running
28:16 water on my hands for more than a month.
28:19 And it was just like, oh my god. Now,
28:22 let me let me remind you, too, that this
28:24 is happening in a tube of steel that's
28:26 hurtling through the air at like 600
28:28 miles an hour, 35,000 ft above sea
28:30 level. And it was one of those moments
28:33 where I'm like, "Holy it is so
28:35 amazing to be alive today." Like, we
28:40 have the most amazing access to just
28:43 luxuries and comforts ever. And yet, we
28:45 often forget that,
28:48 right? So, what did it take for me to
28:50 realize that that flight is a freaking miracle
28:52 miracle
28:55 instead of this huge in personal
28:58 injustice to Michael Easter?
29:00 I had to go out and I had to sort of
29:02 reset that goalpost and go out into a
29:03 world that was totally different, that
29:05 was totally challenging, that taught me
29:07 that the world I came from was actually
29:10 quite great. So, there's this uh
29:12 psychologist, I believe he's now at
29:14 Brown. When I spoke to him, he was just
29:17 finishing up his PhD at Harvard and he
29:19 did the study that was published in
29:21 science. I can't remember its title, but
29:22 he basically came up with the theory
29:23 that's called prevalence induced concept
29:27 change. So what they did in this study
29:31 is um they took a group of people. There
29:33 was like three different phases of the
29:34 study, but I'm going to talk about two
29:35 of them because I think they're most
29:37 relatable. What they did is they took a
29:38 group of 800 different people in the
29:41 first study or I can't remember how many
29:43 people, but they had them look at 800
29:47 different faces in a row. Okay? So
29:49 they'd look at face after face after
29:51 face. And these people had to deem
29:55 whether these faces were threatening or
29:57 non-threatening. So you're going
30:00 non-threatening, non-threatening, oh
30:02 threatening, threatening face after
30:05 face. Now at the 200th face, what they
30:08 did is they started showing these people
30:10 fewer threatening faces. Okay? So
30:13 successively fewer.
30:14 The second study they did, it was a
30:16 similar setup, but they use research
30:17 proposals. And these people had to deem
30:19 whether these research proposals were
30:22 ethical or unethical.
30:24 Same deal. About midway through they
30:25 start feeding these people fewer and
30:28 fewer unethical proposals.
30:30 Now, these two scenarios, they should be
30:32 pretty black or white, right? Either you
30:34 look at a face and it either threatens
30:35 you or it does not threaten you. You
30:37 read a research proposal and it either
30:39 crosses this like moral line you have in
30:42 the sand or it doesn't cross it.
30:44 What they found though is that people
30:47 basically see gray. So as people started
30:49 encountering fewer truly threatening
30:52 faces, they started judging faces that
30:53 were on the borderline as threatening.
30:55 So they said threatening just as many
30:57 times, even though the faces weren't
30:59 truly threatening, faces that they would
31:02 have let slide before. Same with the
31:04 research proposals. As they get fewer
31:06 and fewer unethical ones, they start to
31:08 get nitpicky, right? They're like, "Oh,
31:10 well, there's that one line in there.
31:12 Yeah, that's unethical. Throw it in the
31:15 pile. So the guy calls this prevalence
31:17 induced, his name is David Lavar, he
31:18 calls it prevalence induced concept
31:20 change. And it basically finds that as
31:22 people experience fewer and fewer
31:24 problems, we don't actually become more
31:26 satisfied. We simply sort of lower our
31:28 threshold for what we consider a
31:31 problem. So when you apply that to life
31:33 today to make this practical it's like
31:35 as the world has become a lot more
31:38 comfortable as we encounter fewer sort
31:42 of traumas and real problems in our life
31:45 we don't necessarily stop and go this is
31:47 amazing. We simply broaden our
31:50 definition of what a problem is of what
31:52 a discomfort is and so we end up with
31:55 the exact same number of problems of
31:57 discomforts but they've just become
32:00 progressively more hollow over time. I
32:01 like to think about that as the science
32:04 of first world problems. I think you can
32:06 think about it as a moving goalpost. So
32:08 it's like you go into one environment
32:10 and that sort of sets your expectations,
32:12 right? and were sort of designed to
32:14 search for problems. More or less
32:16 designed um designed to search for
32:17 problems. So you're going to find them
32:19 in your environment
32:21 no matter how unproatic your environment
32:24 is sort of objectively unproatic.
32:28 So when I talked to uh Lavari he
32:29 basically said like yeah I think it
32:31 makes theoretical sense that if you're
32:32 going into a place where your problems
32:36 are more acute and say objectively more
32:38 realistically problems when you go into
32:42 this less problematic environment um
32:45 you'll sort of be like wow this is
32:47 fantastic now of course over time you're
32:48 going to adapt back and I found that
32:51 under myself so when I got back from the
32:54 Arctic I'm like a I'm like a zen punk,
32:56 man. I'm just like, nothing's rattling
32:58 me. That was my wife's comment. Like,
32:59 nothing rattles you since you're back.
33:02 For how long? Probably a month. Probably
33:04 a month. Then my question becomes, well,
33:06 I can't go to the Arctic every month.
33:09 One, I can't. Two, nor do I want to. So,
33:12 what can I do in my life that sort of
33:14 constantly pushes that go goalpost back
33:16 into a place where I'm less neurotic,
33:18 more or less, it's almost like we live
33:20 on a neurotic treadmill in a way. As
33:22 problems fade, we just keep searching
33:24 for problems and finding them.
33:25 So, I think there's a lot of things that
33:27 a person can do like in their daily life
33:29 and people can get creative around this.
33:32 For example, volunteering,
33:34 like if you live a a decent life, well,
33:36 why don't you go help people whose lives
33:38 are a little harder than yours and
33:41 you'll see what it could be like and
33:42 what it's like out there and that'll
33:43 give you some sort of perspective. And
33:45 that's something you can do. It takes an
33:48 hour a week or something, right? I've
33:51 talked to people who go to uh recovery
33:54 meetings, including myself. uh you go
33:56 into a meeting and you hear these
33:58 stories from people who are at the most
34:01 rock bottom moment of their life like
34:03 that'll reset what you consider a
34:06 problem pretty damn fast. You just walk
34:08 out going, "Wow, I was complaining that
34:10 uh my tax guy was asking for a lot of
34:13 papers and this guy just told me a story
34:15 that just blew my mind." Like that's a
34:18 real problem. And so I think we need to
34:20 have moments like that that sort of
34:22 press back against us and put things in
34:24 a little bit more context.
34:26 And I do think you need the sort of
34:29 moment where you think about that and
34:31 you tell yourself the story around that.
34:33 Like that's a really important part. Um
34:35 and I'm going to this is kind of going
34:36 off on a weird path. I don't know what
34:37 it'll take where it'll take us, but
34:39 we'll find out. Um when you think about
34:42 something like a right of passage,
34:45 what people would do in these like these
34:47 are you know tribes around the world had
34:49 these different rights of passages all
34:50 throughout time and this was not like
34:52 they're all communicating and figuring
34:54 the same thing. No, these things arose
34:56 spontaneous and the point of a right of
34:57 passage is that we have a person who's
35:00 at point A in their life and we need
35:01 them to get and we need to get them to
35:03 point B where they're going to be more
35:07 capable, more confident, more competent.
35:08 We don't just say, "Hey, you're ready to
35:11 go to point B." We would often send them
35:13 out to do something challenging. Could
35:15 be like extended time in nature. There
35:17 was all these different things. And in
35:19 that process, the person would struggle.
35:20 They would face all these different
35:21 problems. They would have to figure
35:24 their out and then they would come
35:27 back and they would be at point B. But
35:29 there was a point where people would
35:31 sort of gather around and say, "What did
35:33 you learn about that? What story are you
35:35 telling yourself about that?" And so
35:37 shaping the narrative around a life
35:40 event becomes critically important I
35:42 think for mental health and how you
35:44 frame issues. And so if you think of the
35:47 concept of like event centrality, it's
35:50 like how central is an event going to be
35:53 to my life and what story am I going to
35:55 tell around it? Right? So people who
35:57 tend to take like something bad that
35:58 happened in their life and they take
36:00 that in as the central component of
36:02 their personality tend to have worse
36:05 mental health. Whereas people who take
36:07 it and say hey this thing happened but
36:09 what can I learn from it? How can I grow
36:12 from it? What might happen in the
36:15 future? Yes, this sucks hard right now
36:17 but where might it take me in the past
36:20 or in the future? And those two people
36:21 are going to have completely different
36:23 trajectories. So the narrative you tell
36:25 yourself becomes really important. A few
36:27 years ago, I started keeping a folder
36:30 where I would look back um to different
36:32 uh phases of life and just list out sort
36:35 of the bullet point events of like 0 to
36:37 5 and uh you know 5 to 10 with with no
36:40 particular endpoint in mind. Um it's an
36:43 exercise that I find very useful because
36:46 um it offers the opportunity for this
36:48 kind of like h how do I frame this
36:50 thing? oftentimes that the things that
36:52 felt the worst at that time turned out
36:54 to be some of the best things ever. And
36:57 then you can start to create a um a
36:59 timeline and you realize that most of
37:01 the things that were felt really bad at
37:02 the time turned out to be the best thing
37:05 ever. And and that the big wins were
37:08 almost always the um outgrowth of those
37:10 prior negative experiences. It's just
37:12 kind of wild. But it gets back to this
37:14 theme that I think is um thread
37:16 throughout so much of what we're talking
37:17 about today and and your work, which is
37:22 that it seems like discomfort is uh a
37:25 prerequisite for
37:27 really feeling truly good about oneself
37:29 in the world. Like I I'm not sure that
37:31 they can exist um separately from one
37:32 another, but I think we come into the
37:35 world as these like bubbling babies and
37:37 like nervous systems prepared to learn.
37:40 And so hopefully the early phase of life
37:42 is nothing but joy and peace and
37:44 comfort. I mean our parents devote
37:47 themselves to that we hope right. Um and
37:50 then at some point they ought to pull us
37:52 aside and say hey listen you know the
37:55 next like 70 years are going to be these
37:59 you know this uh saw of of uh of really
38:01 tough really great really tough really
38:03 great experiences. But they don't tell
38:06 us that. And I think that most of us go
38:08 through life trying to get back to this
38:10 place where we're like where
38:11 everything's taken care of. But what
38:13 you're what you're saying is that uh
38:15 that's the exact wrong approach. And in
38:19 fact it's it's it's not um it's not it's
38:22 not we don't want to be infants but at
38:26 some level um we we from a comfort
38:29 perspective we we sort of infantilize
38:32 ourselves. My thought is that the vast
38:34 majority of things that are good for us
38:36 today and that help us grow and that
38:39 help us become better humans, they're
38:41 going to be hard, right? Apply this to
38:44 exercise. Exercise sucks, right? When
38:46 you're doing exercise, it is hard, but
38:47 you're going to get this long-term
38:50 benefit. If you're trying to get your
38:52 eating in order, I can tell you a salad
38:55 is less delicious than a Dorito. And
38:56 anyone who argues with me, you just been
38:58 eating way too many salads. you've
39:00 diluted yourself, right? Or in my case,
39:02 you know, I I'll push back a little bit
39:04 here because I I love exercise and I
39:06 love eating clean and what's just
39:08 happened. I got into it early and but
39:11 and people like this is ridiculous, but
39:13 I just don't eat bad food. I quit eating
39:15 bad food and I stopped thinking about
39:17 whether or not exercise is a negotiable
39:19 a long time ago. I could see that. Um I
39:21 think for probably most people exercise
39:24 is going to be an uncomfortable event.
39:27 Uh it's why what are the federal
39:30 exercise guidelines? 150 minutes of uh
39:31 moderate to vigorous activity a week,
39:33 strength training tries a week.
39:35 Something like 18% of Americans actually
39:38 do that. Only 18%. 18%. Yeah. Could be
39:42 20, you know, fact check me. I'll I'll
39:45 believe you. Um yeah, because
39:47 it is uncomfortable. You know, we have
39:49 all these I think for most people it's
39:51 uncomfortable. uh we have all these sort
39:54 of internal levers that dissuade extra
39:56 movement for the sake of it. You know
39:58 when you run your legs are going to
39:59 burn, your leg your lungs are going to
40:02 hurt. Um but on the other side of that
40:06 discomfort is improved health, improved
40:08 mental well-being, all these different
40:12 things. Um in short, I think that sort
40:13 of to sort of back up from the
40:16 evolutionary perspective that I often
40:20 take is that um the reason we have the
40:21 reason why things are often
40:22 uncomfortable is because you know we
40:24 wanted to dissuade extra movement in the
40:26 past. Um you didn't want to feel hungry
40:28 because you needed that food like on and
40:31 on and on. And today the environments
40:34 have really just flipped where often
40:36 times doing the uncomfortable thing is
40:40 the buy into a better life really. Yeah.
40:41 And you can and it applies to so many
40:44 different places.
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43:35 There's a kid that I've known since he
43:37 was really little um who has some
43:39 learning challenges uh but managed to
43:41 get himself into a really fine
43:44 university um and then after a year took
43:47 on too many comforts of the social
43:49 dynamics, let's say, and decide to leave
43:51 leave of absence.
43:56 um he read your book um about halfway
43:57 through the summer where he was working
44:01 construction and he called me and he
44:03 said uh I'm going back to to college.
44:05 Hell yeah. And I I said if he's
44:07 listening now, I applaud him. Yeah. Uh
44:11 he also um quit a heavy cannabis habit
44:15 in the in the same uh swipe. and um and
44:17 his one of his parents, I don't want to
44:18 give too much information about him
44:20 because people are are clever these
44:21 days. We'll figure it out uh who he is
44:23 and I'd like to maintain his anonymity,
44:25 but one of his parents is a first
44:28 generation immigrant. Um and when his
44:30 kid was leaving college was just like,
44:32 "Oh my god." You know, he had really
44:34 toiled in in hopes of his his son not
44:36 having to have as challenging a physical
44:38 labor life as he did. And so I talked to
44:41 this kid um just the other night and
44:43 he's like moving thousands of pounds of
44:46 concrete every week is really hard on
44:49 the body and he's in his 20s. Yeah. He's
44:53 he's saying he goes to bed every night
44:56 sore like sore from the gym like sore
45:00 down to the bone. Yeah. And um so I want
45:03 to extend a thank you from him. Awesome.
45:06 Most people will not hopefully have to
45:08 go through that process to figure out
45:10 that the path that they have an
45:13 opportunity to take um is probably much
45:16 easier than um the alternative in many
45:20 cases. I want to distinguish between
45:22 daily self-induced discomforts and these
45:24 larger discomforts of like going to the
45:26 Arctic. I want to get to the the the
45:28 massogi theme and and this idea of
45:30 taking on things that are truly hard
45:31 that you might not finish. But if we
45:33 were to shrink this down to the the
45:35 morning, you wake up, you can scroll on
45:37 your phone or you can hop in the cold
45:39 plunge, take a cold shower. These days
45:41 there's a lot of um discussion around
45:42 doing the cold shower has numerous
45:44 benefits. Wakes you up, dopamine,
45:47 norepinephrine, but also it kind of
45:50 sucks. Nobody likes cold water. If you do,
45:51 do,
45:53 send me a note because some, you know,
45:54 I'll send you a neurologist's phone
45:58 number. Um, but we all like the feeling
46:01 of getting out of it. Mhm. But what are
46:03 some things besides cold showers and
46:04 exercise, which I do believe everyone
46:06 should do and get sunlight, etc. that we
46:09 can do on a daily basis, morning or in
46:10 the afternoon if we're feeling just kind
46:13 of low. besides cold showers and
46:15 exercise and sunlight that are hard.
46:18 Like is it if I um like I love eating
46:20 strawberries and I hate putting like I I
46:22 leave the hulls in weird places without
46:24 even realizing it and I'll walk by a
46:26 hole of a strawberry and I'm thinking
46:28 and I this morning I thought my Easter
46:29 is going to laugh at me like I'm like I
46:30 got to pick this thing up. I'm not just
46:32 scattering them around my home by the
46:34 way but I'm like like what is it? Like
46:36 we create these barriers to doing the
46:38 simplest of things. Mhm. So what are
46:39 some difficult things that we can
46:43 introduce to our daily routine that have
46:44 been shown to make us feel better
46:47 besides exercise, sunlight, and cold and
46:49 cold water? Yeah. So sort of my big
46:53 picture answer here is my Substack is
46:55 called the 2% newsletter. And I'll tell
46:57 you why it's called 2%. So there's this
46:59 uh study that found that only 2% of
47:01 people take the stairs when there's an
47:04 escalator available. 2%.
47:07 Now 100% of people know that if they
47:09 were to take the stairs that would be
47:10 better for them, right? They get a
47:12 better long-term return on their health,
47:15 on their well-being. And yet 90% of pe
47:18 98% of people do the easier thing that
47:20 could actually hurt them in the long run
47:21 in the context of this environment where
47:24 we don't move enough. So this tells me
47:26 that we're sort of wired to do the next
47:30 easiest thing. But living better in
47:33 modern life often requires doing these
47:35 slightly uncomfortable things that are
47:37 just so obvious and in front of us. And
47:39 it's like you have to get to the second floor.
47:41 floor.
47:43 So which route are you going to take?
47:44 You going to take the one that's a
47:45 little bit uncomfortable now but
47:46 improves your life in the long run or
47:48 are you going to do the easy thing that
47:50 might actually hurt you in the long run?
47:51 So that to me is just a metaphor for
47:54 like how do you improve in daily life?
47:56 Right? in the trenches of daily life,
47:58 how do you improve? So, I apply this I
48:00 try and apply this to as many different
48:02 areas in my life and I as I can. It's
48:03 like if I can make something just a
48:05 little bit more uncomfortable. I'm not
48:07 talking about extreme do the slightly
48:09 harder thing that I know will give me a
48:12 long-term return, I got to take that. So
48:14 for me it's like okay if I'm in my
48:17 office, go through some examples and I
48:20 have a phone call. I could sit here and
48:22 take the phone call or I could pop in my
48:23 headphones and I could go for a walk and
48:26 I could take that call while walking. I
48:27 would say for the vast majority of phone
48:28 calls unless you're like talking to the
48:30 CEO, your big boss, right? Maybe sit
48:33 behind the computer for that one. But
48:35 like you're getting in all these steps
48:37 that are going to be beneficials and
48:40 steps are one of like the metric that is
48:42 most correlated to better health. Like
48:44 people just need to generally walk more.
48:46 And that's an easy way to do it. It's
48:48 like you got to take the call. Might as
48:51 well get some steps in as you do it,
48:52 right? Things like that. Things like
48:54 could you even just carry your groceries
48:56 at the grocery store? You get the
48:58 basket, you're carrying stuff. If you're
49:00 getting in this like low load of
49:01 carrying that's going to really help
49:04 with back health, strength, all these
49:06 different things. Even the things as
49:07 simple as like I'm going to park in the
49:10 farthest spot away. Like people go roll
49:13 their eyes and go that's so obs. It's
49:15 like okay, but no one actually does it.
49:18 And if you look at just um nonex
49:20 exercise activity thermogenesis neat,
49:22 this is basically a a dorky way of
49:24 saying all the movement in a person's
49:27 life that isn't dedicated exercise that
49:30 often outweighs the benefits of exercise
49:33 in many studies certainly by calories
49:35 burned. Certainly by calories burned
49:38 also uh some data suggests even health
49:41 outcomes in the long run. Um there's
49:42 some Mayo Clinic data that says that,
49:44 you know, people who just move around a
49:45 lot more in their daily life, they're
49:47 burning like 800 calories just from
49:49 moving around. This incidental movement,
49:50 it's like running eight miles or
49:52 something if you do some really rough
49:54 back of hand math, right? And so I think
49:57 looking for those opportunities even
50:00 beyond exercise, something like um so in
50:01 the comfort crisis, I write about the
50:05 value of silence for example. Um we have
50:08 increased the world's loudness four-fold
50:10 as human beings.
50:12 And yet silence is actually pretty good
50:14 for us in this context of noise. So you
50:15 put someone in silence and like, yeah,
50:17 it's a little uncomfortable at first.
50:19 People will generally report being like,
50:21 it's so quiet. This is weird, a little
50:23 weirded out. But as time goes on, people
50:26 tend to calm down. It's sort of like a
50:28 nice reset. And so, can you even go,
50:29 hey, like I go into my office and I just
50:31 start blasting music immediately. Like
50:34 most people keep the TV on, who keep the
50:35 TV on all day. It's not that they're
50:37 watching it. It's that they just need
50:38 noise in the background or else they
50:40 feel weird. But if you can sort of cut
50:41 that out, even though it's a little bit
50:43 hard at first, it's probably going to
50:45 improve you over the long run. Like how
50:47 can we apply this to different areas? I
50:50 did a post, it's called the 2% manifesto
50:52 on my Substack, so I'll link to it um in
50:54 that link I mentioned. Um and it lists a
50:55 bunch of different ways. But I think it
50:57 really is it's just like this mindset
50:58 shift, like how can I take this thing I
51:00 have to do and maybe make it a little
51:02 bit harder and get a benefit? And once
51:05 you start to stack those things up, like
51:06 things start moving, things start
51:09 changing. Yeah, I agree. I um you know
51:11 my trivial example about the strawberry
51:13 hulls which I always put like next to
51:15 the bowl of strawberries and they'll
51:17 just sit there. Um this is actually
51:19 really beneficial for me cuz I do that
51:21 too and my wife and my wife goes, "What
51:23 kind of psychopath does this?" I be
51:25 like, "Well, there's two of us now." Uh
51:28 at least two of us. Um if you are a
51:32 Strawberry Hull um a non uh throwawayer,
51:34 um definitely put put a comment and
51:38 we'll we'll start a support group. Um
51:39 it taught me an important lesson though
51:42 because um it's less about the
51:46 strawberry holes um than noticing the
51:48 feeling of resistance. Like what is
51:50 that? And and then recognizing how
51:52 trivial that resistance is, but how um
51:54 pervasive it is. So like the things that
51:57 we resist doing like I've got the making
51:59 the bed first thing in the morning down.
52:00 I've got the morning sunlight thing
52:02 down. I've got got all that stuff down.
52:05 But it's the little things that we can
52:08 get away with not doing for a while that
52:10 I think are the the ones that really
52:13 erode this whatever this um circuit in
52:14 our brain is that that you're talking
52:16 about. And and I I do want to talk about
52:19 brain circuitry a little bit. Um but I
52:21 don't think we have a name for it. And
52:23 um yeah, because it's it's it's a little
52:25 bit of willpower. It's a little bit of
52:28 tenacity. It's a bit of reflection. But
52:31 what I what I'm getting to here, forgive
52:32 me because I'm stumbling through this a
52:34 little bit because it's it's something
52:35 I'm just arriving to in this
52:37 conversation, is that there's something
52:39 about the contrast between prior
52:42 experience and current experience where
52:44 we could say level of discomfort from,
52:47 you know, 1 to 10. Um, the more
52:48 uncomfortable something is in our prior
52:52 experience, the better the next phase of
52:53 life is going to feel. Whether or not
52:55 it's hours or days later, as you said, a
52:57 month you go to the Arctic for how long
52:59 were you there? 33 days. So more than a
53:02 month and you got a month of
53:04 zened out bliss, uh, you know, super
53:07 Michael to you and to everybody else,
53:09 right? And then the crazies start to
53:11 slowly work their way back in, starts to
53:12 work its way back in. And I think that
53:15 it's a um this is a microcosm for a lot
53:18 of things about nervous systems. They
53:21 adapt and and so forth. So when I think
53:22 about the examples you gave and I love
53:23 the one of taking the stairs. I always
53:25 think when I travel I'm going to sit a
53:27 lot. I I don't like to sit too much. I
53:28 always feel better when I've moved a
53:31 lot. So I'm farmer carrying my luggage
53:33 of big supplement bag you know hence the
53:36 secondary screening and uh the you know
53:38 security and then the stairs are a great
53:40 opportunity. So we can reframe right as
53:43 humans we can reframe tell oursel that
53:45 things are good for us. Um, but it's
53:47 these areas where we where we experience
53:49 a lot of resistance to ourselves, I
53:50 think, that are the most challenging as
53:52 opposed to resistance to the world. As
53:55 you point out, the the world isn't um
53:57 lacking opportunities to to walk on a
53:59 call or take the stairs. It's all around
54:02 us, but it's that internal kind of like,
54:04 you know, shift towards what's more
54:06 comfortable. What do you think about the
54:08 the more psychological things like um
54:11 like god forbid reading a book in paper
54:13 form as opposed to listening to it? And
54:15 I love audiobooks, but you know, forcing
54:18 oneself to read um having the phone out
54:22 of the room. Um read something difficult
54:24 like a hard book. Like if I want a
54:26 really good hard book, I ask Mark Andre
54:28 for a book recommendation. Usually I
54:30 have to go find the book from a like a
54:31 special book seller because some of
54:33 these books are hard to find. And then I
54:35 open up the first page and I go, "Well,
54:36 I knew he was really smart. He's one of
54:37 the smartest people I've ever met. I've
54:39 met a lot of smart people, but this is
54:41 really challenging." And then I have to
54:43 just start lathing through it and
54:44 lathing through it. And it reminds me of
54:46 being a PhD student and learning about
54:47 the nervous system for the first time.
54:50 That stuff feels so good when we like
54:53 find a nugget of of understanding. Yeah.
54:55 But and get through it. And get through
54:58 it. Yeah. But um
55:00 so in the in the cognitive domain, in
55:02 the emotional domain, like do you
55:03 intentionally sit down with your wife
55:05 and go, let's have like a really hard
55:06 conversation so that we can have a
55:08 really great weekend? Do you do that? Do
55:10 you do this in all areas of your life?
55:12 Um, well, I'm definitely not perfect. My
55:14 wife and I actually, we go on very long
55:16 walks and that's where all the magic
55:18 happens. There's something about walking
55:20 as a couple. We'll do like 12 miles on a
55:22 Saturday. 8 to 12 miles on a Saturday.
55:24 Those are long walks. Yeah. And you got
55:25 like four hours together. And you know,
55:26 the first hour you're just kind of this
55:28 and that. And you know, how was your
55:30 work week? It was good. How was yours?
55:32 And then like by hour two, you're
55:34 getting into like the deep and the
55:36 gritty stuff. And I think there's
55:39 something about Forward Ambulation. uh
55:42 with other people that is really um
55:44 lifegiving and there's something even
55:46 sort of spiritual about it and the
55:47 amount of connection that you can get
55:49 from people. So that's something that we
55:50 definitely do and I don't think those
55:53 conversations would come if we were like
55:54 let's sit on the couch. Okay, we'll turn
55:56 on this Netflix show. Hey, how are you?
55:59 Like just wouldn't happen, right?
56:01 Yeah, the walk's a little bit harder of
56:04 course. Um but magic happens there. I
56:05 would also say there's a there's a
56:08 section in the comfort crisis
56:09 and I've written about this a little bit
56:12 in my other book scarcy brain as well
56:14 where I talk about the value of boredom.
56:16 So boredom is effectively this
56:19 evolutionary discomfort that tells us go
56:21 do something else. It's neither good,
56:23 it's neither bad. Simply tells us
56:25 whatever you're doing right now the
56:27 return on your time invested is running
56:30 thin. Go do something else. So, in the
56:34 past, if you think of us, say, um, we're
56:36 out foraging for food and we're in this
56:39 one area and we can't find anything,
56:41 there's nothing, boredom would kick in
56:43 because we're not getting a return. And
56:44 it would say, "Well, go do something
56:45 else." And we'd probably go say, "Okay,
56:47 well, what if we try fishing this river
56:49 or something, right?"
56:51 And I think what happens in modern life
56:53 is that when that evolutionary
56:55 discomfort that tells us to go do
56:57 something else kicks in, that something
56:58 else is just like really easy,
57:01 effortless escape. And it's in the form
57:03 of a cell phone, it's Instagram, it's
57:05 whatever, right? It's like this hyper
57:08 stimulating content.
57:10 But I think that sort of sitting with
57:12 boredom and leveraging it to see where
57:14 else it might take you beyond a screen
57:16 can be really valuable. Yes, it's
57:20 uncomfortable. Um but I've found I've
57:22 get my best ideas and I think that there's
57:24 there's
57:27 de centuries of thinkers who would say
57:30 the same like my best ideas come when
57:31 I've sort of removed myself from outside
57:34 stimulation and yes like my mind wanders
57:37 I'm bored but then bam some magic
57:40 happens. One point of messaging around
57:41 screens today that I wanted to touch on
57:45 too is that like there's so much
57:47 media around cell phones and like you
57:49 got to use your cell phone less. Here's
57:51 a million different ways to use your
57:53 cell phone yet less. Yes, that's
57:55 important. Yes, we should all do it. But
57:58 I think it misses a big point and that
58:00 is if we take, let's say, two hours off
58:02 our phone screen time, what happens is
58:05 that people often get bored and they go
58:07 what am I going to do? and then
58:10 they turn on Netflix.
58:12 Not much different, right? It's not an
58:14 algorithm. No, but you're still just
58:16 like taking this information that is
58:18 being beamed into you rather than seeing
58:20 what else the world can offer you and
58:22 sort of coming up with your own ideas
58:24 and creativity. So, I like to say rather
58:26 than focusing on um less phone, I like
58:28 to think more boredom. Get yourself in a
58:30 space where like boredom is going to
58:32 kick on. It's going to be uncomfortable.
58:33 Your mind's going to wander and you
58:34 might find some good ideas. Yeah, you'll
58:36 have some weird stuff in your brain. Of
58:37 course, that's what happens when your
58:39 mind wanders, but I think you can find
58:41 some interesting things out there. Does
58:44 boredom include reflection or it's true
58:47 boredom like uh I think we need to be
58:49 removed from the hyper stimulating stuff
58:53 that we often when we get that moment of
58:55 I've got nothing to do like stand in a
58:58 grocery line, right? What do people do?
58:59 Everyone's on their cell phone. Like we
59:01 can't just like sit with our thoughts
59:03 for more than three seconds. So, I think
59:04 even just having the moment where you
59:06 go, okay,
59:09 going to do nothing. Might get a little
59:10 weird, might get a little uncomfortable,
59:12 might be a tiny bit bored, but like your
59:13 mind's going to go some interesting
59:15 places I think can be productive in the
59:17 context of today. What I'm chuckling
59:18 because what were your thoughts on the
59:22 the brief um appearance of the the raw
59:24 dog flight experience that showed up
59:26 last year? Did you see that where guys
59:28 were posting online? it did seem to be
59:31 guys um saying that they quote unquote
59:34 raw dogged a terrible use of language.
59:37 Um I didn't pick it. Uh they would do a
59:40 10-hour flight or a six-hour flight with
59:44 no media, just sit there as a as a kind
59:46 of sign of their toughness. I thought it
59:49 was kind of interesting. Uh here's what
59:51 here's what came out of that is my wife
59:55 said, "The hell? These guys are weak."
59:56 She's been doing that ever since I knew
59:59 her. She literally sits in that seat and
60:01 she turns on the flight screen map and she just zones into that. I'm like,
60:04 she just zones into that. I'm like, "You're a crazy person." Now, it turns
60:06 "You're a crazy person." Now, it turns out she's just like the original raw
60:07 out she's just like the original raw dogger.
60:09 dogger. I love it. That was not the answer I
60:11 I love it. That was not the answer I expected. Um, yeah, that that trend kind
60:13 expected. Um, yeah, that that trend kind of came and went. Yeah, came and went. I
60:15 of came and went. Yeah, came and went. I think that, you know, and there's the
60:17 think that, you know, and there's the there's a performative element to that,
60:19 there's a performative element to that, right? And so it was kind of became a
60:21 right? And so it was kind of became a performance for the for the algorithms
60:23 performance for the for the algorithms and whatever where it's I think maybe we
60:26 and whatever where it's I think maybe we need to get a little more nuance behind
60:27 need to get a little more nuance behind that and put some thought into it. It's
60:29 that and put some thought into it. It's like how it's like okay if I'm not on my
60:31 like how it's like okay if I'm not on my screen like how am I going to use this
60:32 screen like how am I going to use this time? Can I use it to
60:34 time? Can I use it to go sort of deeper into my thoughts? And
60:37 go sort of deeper into my thoughts? And you know, I do think people need time,
60:40 you know, I do think people need time, especially when you're deal trying to
60:42 especially when you're deal trying to chew off big ideas. Like I've found that
60:45 chew off big ideas. Like I've found that a long walk where I don't take my cell
60:46 a long walk where I don't take my cell phone. It's like I need that. And I
60:49 phone. It's like I need that. And I think a lot of people I think there's a
60:50 think a lot of people I think there's a lot of anecdotes historically that um
60:54 lot of anecdotes historically that um good ideas come from these moments where
60:55 good ideas come from these moments where you're just that's all you're focused
60:56 you're just that's all you're focused on. Maybe you're on a walk. You're just
60:59 on. Maybe you're on a walk. You're just kind of sitting and just peeling away
61:00 kind of sitting and just peeling away the layers.
61:02 the layers. Not easy but worthwhile.
61:06 Not easy but worthwhile. You know throughout history and still
61:07 You know throughout history and still now many people get ideas um from dreams
61:10 now many people get ideas um from dreams during nighttime sleep or during the
61:13 during nighttime sleep or during the kind of liinal states between waking and
61:15 kind of liinal states between waking and and sleep. These times of of inactivity
61:19 and sleep. These times of of inactivity that no sensory input coming in are are
61:21 that no sensory input coming in are are when the brain processes things. And it
61:23 when the brain processes things. And it makes perfect sense to me that in
61:25 makes perfect sense to me that in daydreaming or in boredom as you
61:27 daydreaming or in boredom as you describe it that new ideas would would
61:30 describe it that new ideas would would surface just as they would from the
61:32 surface just as they would from the liinal state between sleep and awake.
61:34 liinal state between sleep and awake. Yeah. And I think people sometimes
61:36 Yeah. And I think people sometimes experience this like there's a reason we
61:37 experience this like there's a reason we have that sort of cliche that's like you
61:39 have that sort of cliche that's like you come up with your best ideas in the
61:40 come up with your best ideas in the shower because there's not this
61:42 shower because there's not this simulation, right? Just kind of Yeah.
61:44 simulation, right? Just kind of Yeah. You're not on your phone. You're removed
61:45 You're not on your phone. You're removed from you're removed from the noise and
61:47 from you're removed from the noise and you're just kind of oh bam. But you got
61:49 you're just kind of oh bam. But you got to write them down too. I found that as
61:50 to write them down too. I found that as well if you have a good idea. Yeah.
61:52 well if you have a good idea. Yeah. What's your idea capture mechanism?
61:56 What's your idea capture mechanism? You write. Yeah, I usually have a
61:58 You write. Yeah, I usually have a notebook on me. Just write things down.
62:00 notebook on me. Just write things down. And much like a nighttime dream where we
62:02 And much like a nighttime dream where we wake up and like, "Oh, I'm going to
62:04 wake up and like, "Oh, I'm going to remember this tomorrow." And then you
62:05 remember this tomorrow." And then you you won't remember. You won't remember.
62:07 you won't remember. You won't remember. I agree. It's important to write things
62:09 I agree. It's important to write things down during the day that come to mind.
62:10 down during the day that come to mind. Actually, it was the great Joe Strummer
62:12 Actually, it was the great Joe Strummer of the Clash of Mascalo's fame who
62:14 of the Clash of Mascalo's fame who there's some clip of him someplace
62:16 there's some clip of him someplace saying in that like heavy like breath
62:18 saying in that like heavy like breath voice where he's like, "You if you have
62:19 voice where he's like, "You if you have an idea, you have to write it down."
62:21 an idea, you have to write it down." Yeah, because not only will you forget,
62:24 Yeah, because not only will you forget, but even if you happen to remember it,
62:27 but even if you happen to remember it, you can't capture the essence of the the
62:29 you can't capture the essence of the the the inspiration unless you write it down
62:31 the inspiration unless you write it down at that moment. He really believed that
62:32 at that moment. He really believed that in that moment it carried a certain um
62:36 in that moment it carried a certain um uh a certain value that you couldn't
62:38 uh a certain value that you couldn't replace just by writing it down later.
62:40 replace just by writing it down later. Yeah, I agree. So, I just did for a
62:42 Yeah, I agree. So, I just did for a third book I'm working on, I did this um
62:44 third book I'm working on, I did this um it was about 40 days. This is a hike
62:46 it was about 40 days. This is a hike through southern Utah and it goes into
62:48 through southern Utah and it goes into through the Grand Canyon so into
62:49 through the Grand Canyon so into northern Arizona and then ends in Zion.
62:52 northern Arizona and then ends in Zion. Took about 40 days. And so normally when
62:55 Took about 40 days. And so normally when I'm reporting a book like when I did the
62:56 I'm reporting a book like when I did the comfort crisis when I did scarcity brain
62:58 comfort crisis when I did scarcity brain like I'm traveling I'm doing all this
62:59 like I'm traveling I'm doing all this stuff but I'm usually writing using
63:01 stuff but I'm usually writing using these notebooks. Use a very particular
63:03 these notebooks. Use a very particular notebook to write in the rain because
63:05 notebook to write in the rain because I'm in outdoor environments whatever.
63:08 I'm in outdoor environments whatever. But on this hike, like I can't cover the
63:10 But on this hike, like I can't cover the mileage we need to cover all day if I'm
63:13 mileage we need to cover all day if I'm constantly stopping and writing. And
63:15 constantly stopping and writing. And like I can't hike and try and write. It
63:17 like I can't hike and try and write. It was Yeah. Thorough had an advantage by
63:19 was Yeah. Thorough had an advantage by just staying in the one spot. Yeah.
63:20 just staying in the one spot. Yeah. Exactly. Exactly. So I took voice notes
63:23 Exactly. Exactly. So I took voice notes actually on my phone and um I found that
63:25 actually on my phone and um I found that to be really useful too that some a tool
63:28 to be really useful too that some a tool that people can use. So I had when I got
63:30 that people can use. So I had when I got back from the hike I had like 500
63:32 back from the hike I had like 500 different voice notes. Some of them were
63:34 different voice notes. Some of them were 10 seconds, some of them were six
63:36 10 seconds, some of them were six minutes of me just babbling, but there's
63:39 minutes of me just babbling, but there's some good stuff in there. And um so I
63:41 some good stuff in there. And um so I think you do need to capture it in the
63:43 think you do need to capture it in the moment because I did find too that I
63:45 moment because I did find too that I didn't really catch on to the voice note
63:46 didn't really catch on to the voice note idea until maybe the second or third,
63:50 idea until maybe the second or third, fourth day of the hike. And I would like
63:53 fourth day of the hike. And I would like I can't stop and write this down. And
63:54 I can't stop and write this down. And then I'd be in camp at night. we'd set
63:56 then I'd be in camp at night. we'd set up and I'd go and I'd start writing down
63:58 up and I'd go and I'd start writing down the day's notes and I'd go, "What was
64:01 the day's notes and I'd go, "What was that thought you had in that canyon? It
64:04 that thought you had in that canyon? It was so good." And I'd just never find
64:06 was so good." And I'd just never find it. Right. So, I just was like, "Okay,
64:07 it. Right. So, I just was like, "Okay, we got to use the voice notes tool and
64:09 we got to use the voice notes tool and just take those." It was great. Uh
64:11 just take those." It was great. Uh there's a very very uh accomplished
64:14 there's a very very uh accomplished neurobiologist out at Caltech by the
64:16 neurobiologist out at Caltech by the name of David Anderson and he's done
64:18 name of David Anderson and he's done some really interesting work on these
64:19 some really interesting work on these more ancient brain areas like the
64:21 more ancient brain areas like the hypothalamus, primitive states like
64:22 hypothalamus, primitive states like aggression, mating behavior, but uh it
64:26 aggression, mating behavior, but uh it carries out to a number of things that
64:27 carries out to a number of things that we're talking about now um about
64:29 we're talking about now um about cognitive states and creativity and
64:31 cognitive states and creativity and capturing ideas and it's this notion of
64:33 capturing ideas and it's this notion of attractor states that basically that the
64:36 attractor states that basically that the brain uh much to most people's dismay
64:38 brain uh much to most people's dismay doesn't work such that you go oh I'm
64:40 doesn't work such that you go oh I'm going to from 9 to 11 or I'll do some
64:42 going to from 9 to 11 or I'll do some hard coding or I'm going to and you sit
64:44 hard coding or I'm going to and you sit down and you start. No, you you you warm
64:48 down and you start. No, you you you warm up. You kind of ratchet into it and then
64:50 up. You kind of ratchet into it and then um but over time it's it's almost like a
64:53 um but over time it's it's almost like a ball bearing on a flat surface and then
64:54 ball bearing on a flat surface and then and then the surface starts becoming
64:56 and then the surface starts becoming more and more concave and eventually
64:57 more and more concave and eventually it's a deep trench and then that's
64:58 it's a deep trench and then that's usually when the buzzer goes off. It's
64:59 usually when the buzzer goes off. It's time to move to something else. But
65:01 time to move to something else. But those so these attractor states are
65:03 those so these attractor states are basically the the shutting down of of a
65:05 basically the the shutting down of of a lot of other circuitry as one circuit
65:08 lot of other circuitry as one circuit kind of ramps up its activity. But that
65:10 kind of ramps up its activity. But that over time um we can entrain these
65:13 over time um we can entrain these things. We can link them to specific uh
65:15 things. We can link them to specific uh events in time like the making of your
65:17 events in time like the making of your coffee at 9:00 a.m. So your nervous
65:19 coffee at 9:00 a.m. So your nervous system unconsciously starts to predict
65:20 system unconsciously starts to predict the attractor state of being in a state
65:23 the attractor state of being in a state of deep focus and writing. Uh that all
65:25 of deep focus and writing. Uh that all starts to make sense. It starts to just
65:27 starts to make sense. It starts to just it's a different kind of lens on habit.
65:29 it's a different kind of lens on habit. Um but if you look at most people
65:32 Um but if you look at most people including my own activity through the
65:35 including my own activity through the lens of attractor states and you say
65:36 lens of attractor states and you say well what am I training my brain for?
65:39 well what am I training my brain for? What am I in training? End training. End
65:41 What am I in training? End training. End training. E N. And then also just drop
65:44 training. E N. And then also just drop the EN. What am I what am I teaching my
65:46 the EN. What am I what am I teaching my brain to do on a daily basis? You go.
65:48 brain to do on a daily basis? You go. Well, the attractor state is scrolling
65:50 Well, the attractor state is scrolling lots and lots and lots and lots of
65:52 lots and lots and lots and lots of media. It's reading people's comments.
65:54 media. It's reading people's comments. This is funny. It's talking to friends.
65:55 This is funny. It's talking to friends. It's texting a few people. And what we
65:57 It's texting a few people. And what we what we've done, I think, is that we've
65:59 what we've done, I think, is that we've created these attractor states of it's
66:01 created these attractor states of it's not that we're we all have ADHD or
66:03 not that we're we all have ADHD or something. Some people do. But we've
66:05 something. Some people do. But we've we're right where we belong given our
66:07 we're right where we belong given our pri our prior behavior. We're just we're
66:09 pri our prior behavior. We're just we're just training up this this trench of a
66:13 just training up this this trench of a bunch of noise and then the the end of
66:15 bunch of noise and then the the end of the day comes and you're like I
66:16 the day comes and you're like I didn't get anything done. This kind of
66:18 didn't get anything done. This kind of thing. So when you describe getting out
66:20 thing. So when you describe getting out into nature and removing all of that and
66:23 into nature and removing all of that and and kind of forcing yourself to uh to go
66:28 and kind of forcing yourself to uh to go in a particular not just physical
66:29 in a particular not just physical direction but um to go in a particular
66:32 direction but um to go in a particular mental direction. Um, I feel like it's
66:34 mental direction. Um, I feel like it's getting back to something very
66:36 getting back to something very fundamental. It's like, uh, it's like
66:38 fundamental. It's like, uh, it's like the overload principle of resistance
66:40 the overload principle of resistance training or cardiovascular exercise and
66:42 training or cardiovascular exercise and increasing stroke volume. It's like the
66:44 increasing stroke volume. It's like the it's like the fundamentals of how the
66:45 it's like the fundamentals of how the mind work, which is one of the reasons I
66:47 mind work, which is one of the reasons I I love these practices so much, which
66:50 I love these practices so much, which brings me back to this question of,
66:52 brings me back to this question of, okay, so there's the 2% rule. Yep.
66:55 okay, so there's the 2% rule. Yep. Taking the identity that I'm going to be
66:56 Taking the identity that I'm going to be this 2% of people that's going to do
66:58 this 2% of people that's going to do this harder thing. It's going to be
66:59 this harder thing. It's going to be harder in the short term, but it's going
67:01 harder in the short term, but it's going to give me this long-term benefit. And
67:03 to give me this long-term benefit. And if I can find areas to apply that in my
67:05 if I can find areas to apply that in my life, I'm going to get this big long
67:07 life, I'm going to get this big long like the benefits just pile up
67:08 like the benefits just pile up massively. And then at the other end of
67:11 massively. And then at the other end of the spectrum is the misogi concept.
67:14 the spectrum is the misogi concept. Could you explain misogi? Yeah. Um, so
67:17 Could you explain misogi? Yeah. Um, so if I were to sort of give the cliff
67:18 if I were to sort of give the cliff notes, I'll give the cliff notes and
67:19 notes, I'll give the cliff notes and then the longer explanation. in
67:20 then the longer explanation. in cliffnotes is that msogi is sort of
67:22 cliffnotes is that msogi is sort of almost a modern right of passage in
67:25 almost a modern right of passage in order to teach people what they're
67:27 order to teach people what they're capable of and to give them experience
67:29 capable of and to give them experience that really changes them thereafter.
67:33 that really changes them thereafter. Now I heard about this idea um from a
67:36 Now I heard about this idea um from a guy whose name is Marcus Elliot and he
67:38 guy whose name is Marcus Elliot and he came up with this idea back in the 90s.
67:39 came up with this idea back in the 90s. It was like this personal thing he did
67:41 It was like this personal thing he did and I stumbled upon it. Um Marcus I
67:44 and I stumbled upon it. Um Marcus I believe got his MD from Harvard and he
67:46 believe got his MD from Harvard and he decides like I don't want to be a
67:47 decides like I don't want to be a doctor. I want to get into sports
67:49 doctor. I want to get into sports science. So, he runs this facility
67:50 science. So, he runs this facility that's called P3. They're actually not
67:52 that's called P3. They're actually not far from here. They're up in Santa
67:53 far from here. They're up in Santa Barbara. And he works with all these
67:56 Barbara. And he works with all these different sort of athletes. He's got
67:57 different sort of athletes. He's got contracts with the NBA, with the NFL,
68:00 contracts with the NBA, with the NFL, blah blah blah, whatever. But he also
68:03 blah blah blah, whatever. But he also sort of realizes that um what really
68:07 sort of realizes that um what really changes a person, it can't always be
68:09 changes a person, it can't always be measured because he's taking a lot of um
68:11 measured because he's taking a lot of um movement measuring. He does a lot of
68:13 movement measuring. He does a lot of like big data AI stuff around movement
68:14 like big data AI stuff around movement measurement, can predict injury and
68:16 measurement, can predict injury and things like that. Um he realizes that
68:19 things like that. Um he realizes that like these big changes
68:21 like these big changes that force a player to be better that
68:24 that force a player to be better that get them in a better state when a sort
68:26 get them in a better state when a sort of game is on the line that can't be
68:28 of game is on the line that can't be measured. And he does this practice he
68:30 measured. And he does this practice he calls msogi. And the idea is that once a
68:33 calls msogi. And the idea is that once a year you're going to go out and you're
68:34 year you're going to go out and you're going to do something really really
68:36 going to do something really really hard. Now he defines really hard as
68:39 hard. Now he defines really hard as saying you should have a 50-50 shot at
68:41 saying you should have a 50-50 shot at completing whatever your masogi task is.
68:44 completing whatever your masogi task is. So 50-50 shot because today I think he's
68:47 So 50-50 shot because today I think he's right here. He argues like even when we
68:49 right here. He argues like even when we take on a challenge, we have to know
68:51 take on a challenge, we have to know we're going to complete it, right? It's
68:52 we're going to complete it, right? It's like people don't run marathons and go,
68:55 like people don't run marathons and go, I don't know if I'm going to finish the
68:56 I don't know if I'm going to finish the marathon. They say, I don't know if I'm
68:57 marathon. They say, I don't know if I'm going to finish the marathon and sort of
68:59 going to finish the marathon and sort of insert some arbitrary time. Um, so
69:02 insert some arbitrary time. Um, so that's the challenge element. And then
69:03 that's the challenge element. And then the second rule of Msokei is that you
69:05 the second rule of Msokei is that you can't die, right? So the implication is,
69:08 can't die, right? So the implication is, yeah, do something pretty hard. And what
69:11 yeah, do something pretty hard. And what tends to happen when you go out and you
69:13 tends to happen when you go out and you do something really sort of kooky,
69:16 do something really sort of kooky, challenging that you know is really
69:17 challenging that you know is really going to be hard for you, that you are
69:19 going to be hard for you, that you are truly unsure if you're going to be able
69:21 truly unsure if you're going to be able to finish this, is you get into this
69:23 to finish this, is you get into this moment and in this moment you think
69:26 moment and in this moment you think you've hit your edge. You know, I've hit
69:28 you've hit your edge. You know, I've hit my edge. Like I'm not going to be able
69:30 my edge. Like I'm not going to be able to finish this thing. Like all is lost.
69:33 to finish this thing. Like all is lost. But if you can kind of just keep going,
69:35 But if you can kind of just keep going, one foot in front of the other, you get
69:37 one foot in front of the other, you get this other moment. And that's where you
69:39 this other moment. And that's where you look back and you go, "Well, wait a
69:41 look back and you go, "Well, wait a minute. I thought my edge was back
69:43 minute. I thought my edge was back there, but I am clearly past it right
69:46 there, but I am clearly past it right now. So, I've sold myself short here."
69:49 now. So, I've sold myself short here." And then the question is, okay, if I've
69:51 And then the question is, okay, if I've sold myself short here in this moment,
69:54 sold myself short here in this moment, where else in my life might I be selling
69:56 where else in my life might I be selling myself short? And that's where the big
69:58 myself short? And that's where the big changes happen, right? That's the
70:00 changes happen, right? That's the question that you want to leave with
70:02 question that you want to leave with from the maseogi. Now, in the past, I
70:04 from the maseogi. Now, in the past, I would argue. So, after I meet Marcus, he
70:06 would argue. So, after I meet Marcus, he tells me about this like quirky masogi
70:08 tells me about this like quirky masogi idea he does. He does all kinds of weird
70:09 idea he does. He does all kinds of weird stuff. Um,
70:11 stuff. Um, I started sort of really doing some
70:14 I started sort of really doing some digging and going, "All right, this is
70:15 digging and going, "All right, this is like a interesting idea. It's also sort
70:17 like a interesting idea. It's also sort of wacky, you know, but if you look back
70:20 of wacky, you know, but if you look back in history, I think we had things like
70:22 in history, I think we had things like this in the form of rights of passage."
70:25 this in the form of rights of passage." And like I mentioned before, like rights
70:27 And like I mentioned before, like rights of passage just popped up naturally in
70:29 of passage just popped up naturally in all these different cultures. But there
70:30 all these different cultures. But there was a realization that doing something
70:32 was a realization that doing something that truly thrust you beyond the bounds
70:35 that truly thrust you beyond the bounds of what you thought you were capable of
70:37 of what you thought you were capable of where you had to figure things out where
70:40 where you had to figure things out where you had to really doubt yourself and
70:42 you had to really doubt yourself and where you had to overcome becomes this
70:45 where you had to overcome becomes this sort of great teacher for the human
70:47 sort of great teacher for the human spirit. So that's the idea of masogi. Go
70:49 spirit. So that's the idea of masogi. Go out do something that you think is going
70:51 out do something that you think is going to be really really hard. See what you
70:54 to be really really hard. See what you learn. And even if you fail, that's
70:57 learn. And even if you fail, that's fine. You're still going to learn
70:58 fine. You're still going to learn something along the path. I'm a huge fan
71:01 something along the path. I'm a huge fan of this misogi concept. Um, so once a
71:05 of this misogi concept. Um, so once a year picking site, could be physical,
71:07 year picking site, could be physical, could be physical, could be
71:09 could be physical, could be intellectual, create creative, could be
71:12 intellectual, create creative, could be anything.
71:13 anything. And how important is it, you think, to
71:17 And how important is it, you think, to um advertise that you're doing this
71:19 um advertise that you're doing this versus uh important to keep it quiet and
71:23 versus uh important to keep it quiet and to yourself? I think it's better to keep
71:26 to yourself? I think it's better to keep it to yourself. So, I think we live in a
71:28 it to yourself. So, I think we live in a world where nowadays people do a lot of
71:30 world where nowadays people do a lot of things um for external reasons to get
71:33 things um for external reasons to get likes on social media so your neighbor
71:36 likes on social media so your neighbor will be like, "Oh, that guy's the badass
71:37 will be like, "Oh, that guy's the badass in the neighborhood. That lady did
71:39 in the neighborhood. That lady did this." Whatever. And I think if you can
71:42 this." Whatever. And I think if you can just do something only for you, um, that
71:46 just do something only for you, um, that makes it sort of more valuable. It puts
71:48 makes it sort of more valuable. It puts a sort of different spin on it. Um, once
71:51 a sort of different spin on it. Um, once you decide, oh, I'm going to do this
71:53 you decide, oh, I'm going to do this thing because, oh, this guy did it in an
71:56 thing because, oh, this guy did it in an hour. Well, I'm going to do it in 59
71:57 hour. Well, I'm going to do it in 59 minutes. That also get puts a ceiling on
72:00 minutes. That also get puts a ceiling on you, right? Because now you're going to
72:02 you, right? Because now you're going to shoot for 59 minutes rather than, well,
72:04 shoot for 59 minutes rather than, well, what if you just went out and did this
72:05 what if you just went out and did this for yourself and you just went all in?
72:08 for yourself and you just went all in? potentially you could do it in 55, you
72:10 potentially you could do it in 55, you know. Um, and I think today we do live
72:13 know. Um, and I think today we do live in a world where there's a lot of um
72:15 in a world where there's a lot of um sharing in order to get social approval.
72:18 sharing in order to get social approval. Um, you know, you can go back and forth
72:20 Um, you know, you can go back and forth about what are the goods and the bads of
72:22 about what are the goods and the bads of that. Um, but I would just argue that
72:24 that. Um, but I would just argue that sometimes it's good to do things only
72:25 sometimes it's good to do things only for yourself and use that as the sort of
72:29 for yourself and use that as the sort of lever that you know you have that maybe
72:32 lever that you know you have that maybe no one else knows you have it, but you
72:34 no one else knows you have it, but you can pull that damn thing when you need
72:35 can pull that damn thing when you need to. And that's going to really affect
72:37 to. And that's going to really affect some change. I mean, one of my big like
72:39 some change. I mean, one of my big like my one of my biggest messages is like
72:43 my one of my biggest messages is like people just need to go out and find some
72:45 people just need to go out and find some damn adventure. And it's very easy to
72:47 damn adventure. And it's very easy to get locked in a cycle of doing the same
72:50 get locked in a cycle of doing the same thing over and over. You exist at home
72:53 thing over and over. You exist at home and everything is nice and comfortable
72:55 and everything is nice and comfortable and like stresses come in, but they're
72:57 and like stresses come in, but they're like in the form of emails and deadlines
73:00 like in the form of emails and deadlines and things just get predictable.
73:03 and things just get predictable. Go out into a place that is totally
73:05 Go out into a place that is totally unfamiliar. Do something that's going to
73:08 unfamiliar. Do something that's going to be challenging to you. Go with the wind.
73:11 be challenging to you. Go with the wind. You will find things that will really
73:14 You will find things that will really enhance your life. That will make you
73:16 enhance your life. That will make you feel, as Joseph Campbell put it, the
73:18 feel, as Joseph Campbell put it, the rapture of being alive. Like I can tell
73:20 rapture of being alive. Like I can tell you I feel most alive when it's like,
73:23 you I feel most alive when it's like, "Okay, I got to go out to wherever it
73:26 "Okay, I got to go out to wherever it is, the Bolivian jungle, and I got to
73:28 is, the Bolivian jungle, and I got to figure this thing out because I'm going
73:29 figure this thing out because I'm going down there to meet with this Chimane
73:32 down there to meet with this Chimane tribe or whatever it is, or I got to go
73:33 tribe or whatever it is, or I got to go to Iraq and investigate the drug trade."
73:35 to Iraq and investigate the drug trade." Doesn't have to be that extreme, of
73:36 Doesn't have to be that extreme, of course, but that is where I absolutely
73:39 course, but that is where I absolutely feel that I am most alive. It's like
73:41 feel that I am most alive. It's like we're going into this unknown world. We
73:43 we're going into this unknown world. We don't know what's going to happen. We're
73:44 don't know what's going to happen. We're going to encounter all these wacky
73:46 going to encounter all these wacky characters along the way. There's going
73:47 characters along the way. There's going to be trials. There's going to be
73:48 to be trials. There's going to be hardships, but I'm going to like get
73:51 hardships, but I'm going to like get through it and I'm going to have to
73:53 through it and I'm going to have to figure things out. And it is just like
73:55 figure things out. And it is just like so life-giving. It's like the most
73:57 so life-giving. It's like the most amazing thing. And I come back from that
73:59 amazing thing. And I come back from that and it's taught me something that allows
74:01 and it's taught me something that allows me to function better when I get back to
74:03 me to function better when I get back to my normal life because I've learned all
74:05 my normal life because I've learned all these skills and tools that I wouldn't
74:06 these skills and tools that I wouldn't have gotten had I not exited normal life
74:08 have gotten had I not exited normal life and gone out and just had an adventure.
74:12 and gone out and just had an adventure. What if you and I were to um run an
74:14 What if you and I were to um run an online experiment? This is actually
74:15 online experiment? This is actually serious here. where we said, "Okay, uh,
74:18 serious here. where we said, "Okay, uh, we are going to have you and I and a
74:22 we are going to have you and I and a bunch of people that are going to join
74:23 bunch of people that are going to join us are going to, uh, refrain from any
74:26 us are going to, uh, refrain from any any smartphone use for a certain number
74:28 any smartphone use for a certain number of hours per day. And instead of posting
74:30 of hours per day. And instead of posting your sleep score, uh, which a lot of
74:32 your sleep score, uh, which a lot of people are now doing, you're going to
74:33 people are now doing, you're going to post the number of hours that you manage
74:35 post the number of hours that you manage to be offline completely at the end of
74:37 to be offline completely at the end of the day. So, we're going to compete for
74:38 the day. So, we're going to compete for time away from social media and maybe we
74:42 time away from social media and maybe we even get on Instagram live once a week
74:44 even get on Instagram live once a week and we we share our experiences and
74:46 and we we share our experiences and there's this club of wackos that want to
74:48 there's this club of wackos that want to do this right for and and and see where
74:51 do this right for and and and see where we get with it. Do you think that the
74:53 we get with it. Do you think that the sharing of that experience at the end
74:55 sharing of that experience at the end and the community around it would
74:56 and the community around it would actually detract from the experience uh
74:59 actually detract from the experience uh when people are away from their phones?
75:02 when people are away from their phones? It's a good question. I think it's one
75:03 It's a good question. I think it's one of those complicated things where there
75:04 of those complicated things where there would probably be some upsides to the
75:06 would probably be some upsides to the sharing. Some people need the like sort
75:08 sharing. Some people need the like sort of community element like yeah that
75:09 of community element like yeah that would probably enhance in some ways. Um
75:13 would probably enhance in some ways. Um the community element and the
75:14 the community element and the competition might also bend people's
75:16 competition might also bend people's behavior in a way that maybe they
75:19 behavior in a way that maybe they wouldn't have behaved had they not known
75:22 wouldn't have behaved had they not known that they were part of this group.
75:23 that they were part of this group. Right? So I think these questions get
75:25 Right? So I think these questions get really complicated and I think it's also
75:27 really complicated and I think it's also there's probably some individual
75:28 there's probably some individual variation. Um, like I know that I
75:31 variation. Um, like I know that I personally
75:33 personally do a lot better um, if I don't have like
75:38 do a lot better um, if I don't have like a huge social element to things. Like I
75:41 a huge social element to things. Like I don't run marathons just because I'm
75:42 don't run marathons just because I'm like for me psychologically I know
75:45 like for me psychologically I know marathons give people a lot of value
75:46 marathons give people a lot of value because there's community and all these
75:48 because there's community and all these things. But like in my mind for some
75:50 things. But like in my mind for some reason I got this weird quirk where I go
75:52 reason I got this weird quirk where I go yeah but I could just go run like 26
75:54 yeah but I could just go run like 26 miles like at any time on my own time
75:57 miles like at any time on my own time and not have to wear this bib and like
75:59 and not have to wear this bib and like pay this entry fee like you could just
76:02 pay this entry fee like you could just run 26 miles you know. So like something
76:04 run 26 miles you know. So like something they don't do it for me um but they do
76:06 they don't do it for me um but they do it for some people. So, I think you
76:07 it for some people. So, I think you would have I think you'd have individual
76:10 would have I think you'd have individual differences. What do you think? I think
76:12 differences. What do you think? I think we should do the experiment. I think we
76:13 we should do the experiment. I think we should um I think it'd be a lot of fun
76:15 should um I think it'd be a lot of fun to get a group of people, large group of
76:17 to get a group of people, large group of people together um from online to go
76:20 people together um from online to go into their lives and then create a
76:22 into their lives and then create a community of people that use social
76:24 community of people that use social media for learning and for actual social
76:26 media for learning and for actual social connection. Yeah. but are not leaning on
76:29 connection. Yeah. but are not leaning on it for um this kind of uh
76:33 it for um this kind of uh people call fast food or kind of what my
76:34 people call fast food or kind of what my dad would call the kind of chewing gum
76:36 dad would call the kind of chewing gum version of of of nutrition um all day
76:39 version of of of nutrition um all day long. Yeah. And I say this as somebody
76:41 long. Yeah. And I say this as somebody that enjoys social media. So um but I
76:43 that enjoys social media. So um but I think this is an idea I wanted to pitch
76:45 think this is an idea I wanted to pitch to you today. So decided to do it on
76:46 to you today. So decided to do it on mic. I have a good platform for it
76:49 mic. I have a good platform for it unless you do how we could track it. So
76:51 unless you do how we could track it. So one of my favorite apps it's called
76:54 one of my favorite apps it's called Clearpace.
76:56 Clearpace. What Clear Space does is it uh when you
76:59 What Clear Space does is it uh when you go to you select the apps that you want
77:00 go to you select the apps that you want to sort of quote unquote block um when
77:04 to sort of quote unquote block um when you go to select one of those apps,
77:05 you go to select one of those apps, let's say it's Instagram,
77:07 let's say it's Instagram, it gives you a nice quote like a
77:10 it gives you a nice quote like a inspiring quote about life, but you have
77:12 inspiring quote about life, but you have to wait, right? There's like a 10-second
77:14 to wait, right? There's like a 10-second pause. You wait and then it takes you to
77:17 pause. You wait and then it takes you to the next screen and it says, "How much
77:19 the next screen and it says, "How much time do you actually want to spend on
77:21 time do you actually want to spend on this app?" And you can select, you know,
77:23 this app?" And you can select, you know, 5 minutes, 10 minutes, 15, 20 minutes,
77:25 5 minutes, 10 minutes, 15, 20 minutes, and then you select whatever amount of
77:27 and then you select whatever amount of time. And only once you've gone through
77:28 time. And only once you've gone through that process can you use the app for the
77:31 that process can you use the app for the pre-selected amount of time. And I found
77:33 pre-selected amount of time. And I found it to be really useful because it gets
77:36 it to be really useful because it gets me intentional. Right? A lot of times
77:38 me intentional. Right? A lot of times people just pull out their phone, they
77:39 people just pull out their phone, they immediately hit, oh, Instagram, and then
77:41 immediately hit, oh, Instagram, and then you find yourself in it, and then you
77:42 you find yourself in it, and then you you went in to answer a DM, but like
77:44 you went in to answer a DM, but like actually you watched dog videos. Nothing
77:47 actually you watched dog videos. Nothing wrong with dog videos, but you watched
77:48 wrong with dog videos, but you watched dog videos for 30 minutes and you go, oh
77:50 dog videos for 30 minutes and you go, oh I've just lost my day. Right? So,
77:52 I've just lost my day. Right? So, this thing sort of interrupts that. And
77:54 this thing sort of interrupts that. And they do have um some challenge features.
77:56 they do have um some challenge features. They could probably create us a group.
77:57 They could probably create us a group. That would be really fun. It sounds
77:59 That would be really fun. It sounds really cool. Yeah, I I I love social
78:02 really cool. Yeah, I I I love social media. I think that in its essence um
78:04 media. I think that in its essence um it's an opportunity to really connect
78:06 it's an opportunity to really connect with people and I've always wanted to
78:08 with people and I've always wanted to have like a weekly meeting with my
78:10 have like a weekly meeting with my followers where we I could learn from
78:12 followers where we I could learn from them and hear what they're doing and
78:13 them and hear what they're doing and what they're up to and you know and um
78:16 what they're up to and you know and um and so I feel like there's real value to
78:18 and so I feel like there's real value to that like going and living one's life
78:20 that like going and living one's life and then meeting online and talking to
78:22 and then meeting online and talking to people you otherwise wouldn't be able to
78:24 people you otherwise wouldn't be able to share information and and learn from
78:26 share information and and learn from them and and hopefully them from you and
78:28 them and and hopefully them from you and and to to really do that. I don't know
78:32 and to to really do that. I don't know are there any aside from perhaps 12step
78:34 are there any aside from perhaps 12step or maybe there's some religious groups
78:37 or maybe there's some religious groups um but are there any
78:40 um but are there any within social media platform groups that
78:42 within social media platform groups that meet regularly and have for years like
78:45 meet regularly and have for years like we meet once a week we get on there we
78:46 we meet once a week we get on there we have a live I mean I'll pop on for a
78:48 have a live I mean I'll pop on for a live every once in a while um to connect
78:50 live every once in a while um to connect with my audience um and mostly to hear
78:53 with my audience um and mostly to hear their questions but I wonder if there
78:55 their questions but I wonder if there are any online groups that have met
78:57 are any online groups that have met consistently for for many years. That's
78:59 consistently for for many years. That's a great question. It reminds me of that
79:02 a great question. It reminds me of that um you probably saw the story about the
79:04 um you probably saw the story about the the guys and this wasn't social media
79:05 the guys and this wasn't social media but it's amazing. That group of guys
79:07 but it's amazing. That group of guys that's been playing a game of tag for
79:09 that's been playing a game of tag for like 40 years or something really. Did
79:11 like 40 years or something really. Did you see that story? Yeah. It's like
79:12 you see that story? Yeah. It's like these guys I think they were like kids
79:14 these guys I think they were like kids and they kept up this like lifelong game
79:16 and they kept up this like lifelong game of tag and it just never it's never
79:19 of tag and it just never it's never ended at weddings and everything. Yeah.
79:22 ended at weddings and everything. Yeah. Oh wow. Most people probably think
79:24 Oh wow. Most people probably think that's got to be incredibly obnoxious.
79:26 that's got to be incredibly obnoxious. So they never pause the game. Never
79:27 So they never pause the game. Never pause the game. Yeah. And it'll, you
79:30 pause the game. Yeah. And it'll, you know, someone might be it for like years
79:33 know, someone might be it for like years and then that person will take a secret
79:34 and then that person will take a secret flight to Cleveland or wherever the
79:36 flight to Cleveland or wherever the other guy is and then gotcha, you're it.
79:38 other guy is and then gotcha, you're it. You know, this is still going. I think
79:40 You know, this is still going. I think it's still going. Yeah. Amazing. Yeah.
79:42 it's still going. Yeah. Amazing. Yeah. Amazing. Great. Yeah. You know, I' I've
79:45 Amazing. Great. Yeah. You know, I' I've said this before many times on social
79:46 said this before many times on social media, but uh any dopamine reward that
79:50 media, but uh any dopamine reward that is not preceded by substantial effort,
79:52 is not preceded by substantial effort, you know, can potentially destroy us in
79:54 you know, can potentially destroy us in the form of addiction, but also leads to
79:56 the form of addiction, but also leads to a drop in that baseline of dopamine at
79:58 a drop in that baseline of dopamine at other times. This is, you know, this is
80:01 other times. This is, you know, this is the abundance of food, the ease of life
80:02 the abundance of food, the ease of life that you're referring to. um in this
80:05 that you're referring to. um in this experiment that I'm hoping we we can run
80:07 experiment that I'm hoping we we can run in some form or another the the idea is
80:09 in some form or another the the idea is that there will be some resistance
80:12 that there will be some resistance um to stepping away from smartphone
80:16 um to stepping away from smartphone uh there will be great hopefully
80:18 uh there will be great hopefully pleasure and the attractor states will
80:20 pleasure and the attractor states will take over to doing other things in one's
80:22 take over to doing other things in one's life relationships and creative pursuits
80:24 life relationships and creative pursuits etc when we're away from the phone but
80:26 etc when we're away from the phone but that there's a certain amount of effort
80:28 that there's a certain amount of effort to to resist so that when we come
80:30 to to resist so that when we come together socially it it's a real
80:34 together socially it it's a real dopamine not hit but it's a real
80:36 dopamine not hit but it's a real dopamine rise that doesn't drop the
80:37 dopamine rise that doesn't drop the baseline of dopamine. So it meets all
80:39 baseline of dopamine. So it meets all the the kind of criteria of of uh
80:42 the the kind of criteria of of uh dopamine dynamics that I believe are
80:44 dopamine dynamics that I believe are healthy because we really can
80:45 healthy because we really can distinguish healthy from unhealthy
80:46 distinguish healthy from unhealthy dopamine dynamics but it still
80:49 dopamine dynamics but it still incorporates the smartphone which
80:51 incorporates the smartphone which doesn't look like it's going anywhere.
80:53 doesn't look like it's going anywhere. Um so it'd be fun to do this experiment.
80:55 Um so it'd be fun to do this experiment. I don't know. I think it's like that
80:57 I don't know. I think it's like that yeah to your point smartphones are here
80:58 yeah to your point smartphones are here to stay. clearly benefits to social
81:01 to stay. clearly benefits to social media else, no one would use it. Um,
81:04 media else, no one would use it. Um, problem is some of the benefits come
81:05 problem is some of the benefits come with long-term harms, right? Um, but I
81:09 with long-term harms, right? Um, but I think if you can sort of train yourself
81:10 think if you can sort of train yourself to use it in a way that helps you rather
81:12 to use it in a way that helps you rather than hurt you, well, that's a good
81:14 than hurt you, well, that's a good thing. Sort of reminded me of this story
81:17 thing. Sort of reminded me of this story um of my mom. So, my mom had cancer
81:20 um of my mom. So, my mom had cancer about 10 years ago. She's fine now. Um,
81:23 about 10 years ago. She's fine now. Um, but she was in for one of her annual
81:25 but she was in for one of her annual checkups, right? And this is obviously
81:28 checkups, right? And this is obviously nerve-wracking because you're finding
81:30 nerve-wracking because you're finding out, hey, did it come back? Whatever,
81:32 out, hey, did it come back? Whatever, blah, blah, blah. So, she goes to this
81:34 blah, blah, blah. So, she goes to this meeting and I was um I was out of town.
81:36 meeting and I was um I was out of town. She goes to this appointment and she's
81:38 She goes to this appointment and she's in the doctor's office. She's in the
81:40 in the doctor's office. She's in the sort of waiting room in the gown and
81:41 sort of waiting room in the gown and they're like, "Yeah, we'll be back in a
81:42 they're like, "Yeah, we'll be back in a minute." And so she sitting there and
81:46 minute." And so she sitting there and right as the nurse left she immediately
81:47 right as the nurse left she immediately went to put out pull grab her phone
81:50 went to put out pull grab her phone and she left her phone in her car and
81:53 and she left her phone in her car and she's like I realized in that moment I
81:57 she's like I realized in that moment I was grabbing that phone because I was
81:59 was grabbing that phone because I was anxious and emotionally vulnerable and
82:03 anxious and emotionally vulnerable and that was effectively a sedative in that
82:05 that was effectively a sedative in that moment and I had to sit with that. I had
82:08 moment and I had to sit with that. I had just had to sit and feel that. She's
82:11 just had to sit and feel that. She's like, but by being sort of forced into
82:14 like, but by being sort of forced into that moment, it made me realize, well,
82:18 that moment, it made me realize, well, why don't I want to feel this? And that
82:20 why don't I want to feel this? And that leads to these questions like, oh,
82:21 leads to these questions like, oh, because I value being alive. Well, why
82:22 because I value being alive. Well, why do I value being alive? We'll hear all
82:24 do I value being alive? We'll hear all these reasons. Oh, I appreciate this
82:26 these reasons. Oh, I appreciate this thing. I appreciate this other thing.
82:29 thing. I appreciate this other thing. And that insight, I think, taught her a
82:32 And that insight, I think, taught her a lot about how she wants to spend her
82:34 lot about how she wants to spend her time, too. And so having these moments
82:36 time, too. And so having these moments where we don't immediately go for the
82:39 where we don't immediately go for the sort of easy uncomfortable or easy
82:41 sort of easy uncomfortable or easy comfortable thing I think can lead to
82:44 comfortable thing I think can lead to these insights and that's just like this
82:46 these insights and that's just like this very micro moment but that it it stands
82:50 very micro moment but that it it stands for so much
82:52 for so much and her behavior did change afterwards.
82:54 and her behavior did change afterwards. You know she's she's awesome. She's
82:56 You know she's she's awesome. She's always been amazing. She's a um she's a
82:59 always been amazing. She's a um she's a single mom and I'm an only child. And um
83:02 single mom and I'm an only child. And um she's been sober for 40 years. Yes, 40
83:06 she's been sober for 40 years. Yes, 40 years. And I'm 38, so she got sober, had
83:10 years. And I'm 38, so she got sober, had a kid. Um cards were definitely stacked
83:13 a kid. Um cards were definitely stacked against us, but she worked her ass off
83:15 against us, but she worked her ass off and built us a pretty good life. That's
83:17 and built us a pretty good life. That's awesome. Definitely weren't rich, but
83:19 awesome. Definitely weren't rich, but just amazing woman. And um yeah, I've
83:21 just amazing woman. And um yeah, I've learned a lot from her. She sounds like
83:23 learned a lot from her. She sounds like an amazing woman. I'm really happy to
83:25 an amazing woman. I'm really happy to hear she's healthy. Yeah. And that
83:27 hear she's healthy. Yeah. And that moment of um having left the phone in
83:31 moment of um having left the phone in the car. Uh yet it's amazing how those
83:36 the car. Uh yet it's amazing how those small portals in time like can open up
83:38 small portals in time like can open up so much. I I I think um social media
83:43 so much. I I I think um social media offers a lot. I do also think that as
83:46 offers a lot. I do also think that as your example points out, it offers the
83:48 your example points out, it offers the opportunity to numb out
83:52 opportunity to numb out or to experience drama. And I feel like
83:54 or to experience drama. And I feel like when people talk about the dopamine hits
83:56 when people talk about the dopamine hits of social media, the data on this just
83:59 of social media, the data on this just don't square with the idea that that
84:02 don't square with the idea that that scrolling our phone gives us dopamine
84:04 scrolling our phone gives us dopamine hits. It gives us low-level expenditure.
84:08 hits. It gives us low-level expenditure. Um, you know, I want to you on the basis
84:11 Um, you know, I want to you on the basis of your books, I I wrote something down
84:13 of your books, I I wrote something down a couple days ago. I was thinking about
84:15 a couple days ago. I was thinking about our conversation. I was thinking I I've
84:18 our conversation. I was thinking I I've long believed that, you know, dopamine
84:20 long believed that, you know, dopamine is a currency. We it's the universal
84:23 is a currency. We it's the universal currency of motivation, right? It's what
84:26 currency of motivation, right? It's what literally allows us to ambulate forward.
84:28 literally allows us to ambulate forward. It controls movement in the body. That's
84:29 It controls movement in the body. That's why people with Parkinson's who lose
84:31 why people with Parkinson's who lose dopamine neurons can't move. But in
84:33 dopamine neurons can't move. But in terms of mental movement is motivation,
84:35 terms of mental movement is motivation, like movement towards something,
84:36 like movement towards something, redirecting our efforts and so forth. Um
84:39 redirecting our efforts and so forth. Um and I was thinking about um this idea
84:42 and I was thinking about um this idea that we we can either
84:45 that we we can either spend our dopamine, right? Or we can
84:48 spend our dopamine, right? Or we can invest our dopamine on this is purely on
84:50 invest our dopamine on this is purely on the basis of your work. Awesome. Um and
84:53 the basis of your work. Awesome. Um and it seems like all day long we we can
84:56 it seems like all day long we we can potentially spend dopamine. Scrolling is
84:57 potentially spend dopamine. Scrolling is spending and and it's the kind of
84:58 spending and and it's the kind of spending we don't even notice that we're
85:00 spending we don't even notice that we're doing. We're sort of leaking. It's
85:02 doing. We're sort of leaking. It's almost like leaking dopamine. We we
85:04 almost like leaking dopamine. We we we're not getting these big quoteunquote
85:06 we're not getting these big quoteunquote dopamine hits. This is why I don't like
85:07 dopamine hits. This is why I don't like the dopamine hit model. I don't log on
85:09 the dopamine hit model. I don't log on Instagram and go like wow. Like it's
85:11 Instagram and go like wow. Like it's it's no like it's not like coming back
85:13 it's no like it's not like coming back from a massochi and going I lived. It's
85:17 from a massochi and going I lived. It's not transformative for the next month.
85:18 not transformative for the next month. It keeps you in the in the rut of
85:20 It keeps you in the in the rut of looking for more because it's like
85:22 looking for more because it's like mental chewing gum. As my my dad long
85:24 mental chewing gum. As my my dad long time ago he said be careful of of the
85:26 time ago he said be careful of of the internet. Uh I said why? And he said
85:29 internet. Uh I said why? And he said it's just mental chewing gum. You just
85:30 it's just mental chewing gum. You just wise wise guy. Yeah. And um he's he's
85:32 wise wise guy. Yeah. And um he's he's very reg regimented guy. Um, and so
85:37 very reg regimented guy. Um, and so we're always spending, but then there
85:38 we're always spending, but then there are these things that require effort
85:42 are these things that require effort that are in we're still spending
85:44 that are in we're still spending dopamine while we're doing it. Like if
85:46 dopamine while we're doing it. Like if you go do a workout, you're spending
85:48 you go do a workout, you're spending effort to do it, but you get something
85:50 effort to do it, but you get something back on that investment. So you're
85:51 back on that investment. So you're investing it, you're not just spending
85:53 investing it, you're not just spending it. Yeah. And that's great. And the
85:56 it. Yeah. And that's great. And the other one based on what you told me
85:57 other one based on what you told me today is reflection
86:00 today is reflection in states of boredom or meditation or
86:04 in states of boredom or meditation or you know for for people that orient this
86:06 you know for for people that orient this way prayer what whatever it happens to
86:08 way prayer what whatever it happens to be or maybe it's even just leaving a
86:10 be or maybe it's even just leaving a social gathering and keeping your phone
86:12 social gathering and keeping your phone in your pocket and walking back to the
86:13 in your pocket and walking back to the car and just really thinking about the
86:14 car and just really thinking about the richness of that interaction. Right?
86:16 richness of that interaction. Right? these little things that are
86:18 these little things that are disappearing in in in our lives these
86:20 disappearing in in in our lives these days, but that are so easy to recapture
86:22 days, but that are so easy to recapture that reflection is another way of
86:23 that reflection is another way of investing our dopamine. I think what
86:26 investing our dopamine. I think what when we look at the the neurobiological
86:28 when we look at the the neurobiological literature on dopamine, we're going to
86:29 literature on dopamine, we're going to realize that yeah, of course, addictions
86:33 realize that yeah, of course, addictions spend out your dopamine, drop your
86:35 spend out your dopamine, drop your baseline, your your bank account is in
86:38 baseline, your your bank account is in the red, deep in the red. Yeah. um it's
86:41 the red, deep in the red. Yeah. um it's a whole other discussion, but that most
86:44 a whole other discussion, but that most of us are spending and then we reset
86:45 of us are spending and then we reset each night with sleep and then we spend
86:47 each night with sleep and then we spend the next day and then we reset and it's
86:48 the next day and then we reset and it's a life of it becomes kind of a
86:50 a life of it becomes kind of a meaningless life. And um this isn't to
86:53 meaningless life. And um this isn't to demonize the social media platforms that
86:55 demonize the social media platforms that they're pretty good at letting us numb
86:56 they're pretty good at letting us numb out when we don't want to feel something
86:58 out when we don't want to feel something or feel drama when we need to feel that
87:00 or feel drama when we need to feel that like lift. Um like, oh my god, she did
87:03 like lift. Um like, oh my god, she did that, he did that. Oh my god, the
87:05 that, he did that. Oh my god, the lawsuit got dismissed about these two
87:07 lawsuit got dismissed about these two people who are arguing about who said
87:08 people who are arguing about who said what and who did. I'm like, how boring
87:11 what and who did. I'm like, how boring is it really? Yeah. And how unimportant
87:14 is it really? Yeah. And how unimportant is it? But it's not boring because they
87:16 is it? But it's not boring because they they've taught us how to make it not
87:17 they've taught us how to make it not boring. And you look at the comments,
87:20 boring. And you look at the comments, it's like it's just like gross. It's
87:21 it's like it's just like gross. It's like high school forever. Yeah. But the
87:23 like high school forever. Yeah. But the worst part of high school, it
87:24 worst part of high school, it effectively trains us to use it. So when
87:27 effectively trains us to use it. So when I think about comfort crisis or scarcity
87:28 I think about comfort crisis or scarcity brain, see it's really about how to
87:30 brain, see it's really about how to invest your dopamine in effort and
87:32 invest your dopamine in effort and reflection as a way to capture more of
87:36 reflection as a way to capture more of capability to lean into things. That
87:38 capability to lean into things. That that's that's really um to me what I
87:41 that's that's really um to me what I like is the the genius of of doing hard
87:43 like is the the genius of of doing hard things that you brought forward in the
87:45 things that you brought forward in the comfort crisis. I as as I started
87:47 comfort crisis. I as as I started today's discussion saying I mean it
87:50 today's discussion saying I mean it really changed my everyday because I
87:52 really changed my everyday because I think so so intensely now about like the
87:55 think so so intensely now about like the like how can I introduce more pain to in
87:57 like how can I introduce more pain to in to bring about more meaning as opposed
88:00 to bring about more meaning as opposed to comfort like meaning and in any in
88:03 to comfort like meaning and in any in any case. So um
88:06 any case. So um yeah I I think you're you're really on
88:08 yeah I I think you're you're really on to the two things that matter most which
88:11 to the two things that matter most which are effort and and reflection. I love
88:13 are effort and and reflection. I love that language of spending versus
88:15 that language of spending versus investing. That's just Yeah, I think you
88:18 investing. That's just Yeah, I think you hit the nail on the head there. And the
88:20 hit the nail on the head there. And the the investing is usually things that are
88:22 the investing is usually things that are going to be a little more challenging,
88:25 going to be a little more challenging, not as hyper stimulating, things you
88:27 not as hyper stimulating, things you maybe wouldn't necessarily want to do at
88:29 maybe wouldn't necessarily want to do at first and then once you've done them
88:31 first and then once you've done them enough, you realize, oh, this has really
88:33 enough, you realize, oh, this has really changed me in a fundamental and positive
88:35 changed me in a fundamental and positive way. And hopefully you start to sort of
88:37 way. And hopefully you start to sort of crave them. Like you said, no, I love
88:38 crave them. Like you said, no, I love exercise, right? That's where we want
88:40 exercise, right? That's where we want people to get with all sorts of things
88:42 people to get with all sorts of things that can enhance their life. And I think
88:44 that can enhance their life. And I think too I'll add here is so if you think
88:46 too I'll add here is so if you think about
88:48 about people who pile up money and pile up
88:51 people who pile up money and pile up money and invest and invest and invest
88:52 money and invest and invest and invest and they never spend it,
88:55 and they never spend it, maybe you also need to learn, okay, now
88:57 maybe you also need to learn, okay, now that I'm doing all this investing,
88:59 that I'm doing all this investing, it's also okay to spend it sometimes,
89:01 it's also okay to spend it sometimes, right? And then I can really enjoy that
89:03 right? And then I can really enjoy that because I've done all these things. And
89:04 because I've done all these things. And so like I find with my with my own use,
89:08 so like I find with my with my own use, I used to sort of um beat myself up if I
89:10 I used to sort of um beat myself up if I was on say Instagram or whatever just
89:13 was on say Instagram or whatever just looking at nonsense. I I like nonsense
89:16 looking at nonsense. I I like nonsense on Instagram and I would beat myself up
89:18 on Instagram and I would beat myself up and then I realized you've done all
89:20 and then I realized you've done all these things like you wrote for five
89:22 these things like you wrote for five hours, you got a workout in, you took
89:25 hours, you got a workout in, you took your dog for a walk, you know, you
89:27 your dog for a walk, you know, you helped out around the house, you did all
89:28 helped out around the house, you did all these things. Dude, watch a freaking dog
89:32 these things. Dude, watch a freaking dog video for 20 minutes. it's fine. And
89:34 video for 20 minutes. it's fine. And then I could actually appreciate that
89:35 then I could actually appreciate that more and like I didn't have the guilt
89:37 more and like I didn't have the guilt around that, you know, and it was like
89:39 around that, you know, and it was like sort of the all right, you've invested a
89:41 sort of the all right, you've invested a bunch. You got all this money. Yeah. And
89:42 bunch. You got all this money. Yeah. And buy that buy that thing you don't
89:44 buy that buy that thing you don't necessarily need, but it's going to it's
89:46 necessarily need, but it's going to it's nice little boost, you know. I'd like to
89:48 nice little boost, you know. I'd like to take a quick break and acknowledge one
89:50 take a quick break and acknowledge one of our sponsors, Function. Last year, I
89:53 of our sponsors, Function. Last year, I became a Function member after searching
89:54 became a Function member after searching for the most comprehensive approach to
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90:09 immune functioning, nutrient levels, and much more. They've also recently added
90:11 much more. They've also recently added tests for toxins such as BPA exposure
90:14 tests for toxins such as BPA exposure from harmful plastics, and tests for
90:16 from harmful plastics, and tests for PASES or forever chemicals. Function not
90:19 PASES or forever chemicals. Function not only provides testing of over a 100
90:20 only provides testing of over a 100 biomarkers key to your physical and
90:22 biomarkers key to your physical and mental health, but it also analyzes
90:24 mental health, but it also analyzes these results and provides insights from
90:26 these results and provides insights from top doctors who are expert in the
90:28 top doctors who are expert in the relevant areas. For example, in one of
90:30 relevant areas. For example, in one of my first tests with Function, I learned
90:32 my first tests with Function, I learned that I had elevated levels of mercury in
90:34 that I had elevated levels of mercury in my blood. Function not only helped me
90:36 my blood. Function not only helped me detect that, but offered insights into
90:38 detect that, but offered insights into how best to reduce my mercury levels,
90:40 how best to reduce my mercury levels, which included limiting my tuna
90:41 which included limiting my tuna consumption. I've been eating a lot of
90:43 consumption. I've been eating a lot of tuna while also making an effort to eat
90:45 tuna while also making an effort to eat more leafy greens and supplementing with
90:46 more leafy greens and supplementing with knack and acetylcysteine, both of which
90:48 knack and acetylcysteine, both of which can support glutathione production and
90:50 can support glutathione production and detoxification. And I should say by
90:52 detoxification. And I should say by taking a second function test, that
90:54 taking a second function test, that approach worked. Comprehensive blood
90:56 approach worked. Comprehensive blood testing is vitally important. There's so
90:58 testing is vitally important. There's so many things related to your mental and
91:00 many things related to your mental and physical health that can only be
91:01 physical health that can only be detected in a blood test. The problem is
91:04 detected in a blood test. The problem is blood testing has always been very
91:05 blood testing has always been very expensive and complicated. In contrast,
91:07 expensive and complicated. In contrast, I've been super impressed by Function's
91:09 I've been super impressed by Function's simplicity and at the level of cost. It
91:12 simplicity and at the level of cost. It is very affordable. As a consequence, I
91:14 is very affordable. As a consequence, I decided to join their scientific
91:15 decided to join their scientific advisory board, and I'm thrilled that
91:17 advisory board, and I'm thrilled that they're sponsoring the podcast. If you'd
91:19 they're sponsoring the podcast. If you'd like to try Function, you can go to
91:21 like to try Function, you can go to functionhealth.com/huberman.
91:23 functionhealth.com/huberman. Function currently has a wait list of
91:24 Function currently has a wait list of over 250,000 people, but they're
91:27 over 250,000 people, but they're offering early access to Huberman
91:29 offering early access to Huberman podcast listeners. Again, that's
91:31 podcast listeners. Again, that's functionhealth.com/huberman
91:33 functionhealth.com/huberman to get early access to function. the
91:36 to get early access to function. the idea that we all have to become these
91:37 idea that we all have to become these sickos that love um that love
91:40 sickos that love um that love self-punishment in service to just
91:42 self-punishment in service to just building up more dopamine reserves,
91:44 building up more dopamine reserves, that's that's definitely not the goal. I
91:46 that's that's definitely not the goal. I mean, I think one of the reasons that
91:47 mean, I think one of the reasons that David Gogggins is so popular uh is well,
91:50 David Gogggins is so popular uh is well, there are many reasons. Um a he he is
91:53 there are many reasons. Um a he he is how he appears online. I mean, I've
91:55 how he appears online. I mean, I've known David since before he had a book,
91:57 known David since before he had a book, since his before his first book. He was
91:58 since his before his first book. He was exactly that way. He was exactly that
92:01 exactly that way. He was exactly that way. He's not playing a role, right?
92:03 way. He's not playing a role, right? There's no acting. This is how he
92:04 There's no acting. This is how he functions. That's great. It's a life
92:07 functions. That's great. It's a life that most people are not going to
92:08 that most people are not going to embrace. Um, and if they do embrace it
92:11 embrace. Um, and if they do embrace it partially, I think it will benefit them
92:12 partially, I think it will benefit them tremendously. But he he sort of embodies
92:14 tremendously. But he he sort of embodies that. He excuse me, he doesn't sort of
92:16 that. He excuse me, he doesn't sort of embody that. He embodies that. I think
92:19 embody that. He embodies that. I think that being able to relax and enjoy
92:21 that being able to relax and enjoy things and really savor them uh is
92:24 things and really savor them uh is another source of of of
92:27 another source of of of I won't say everything's investing, but
92:28 I won't say everything's investing, but there are certain things that might look
92:30 there are certain things that might look like spending your dopamine that are
92:31 like spending your dopamine that are actually investing them. And you
92:32 actually investing them. And you described a beautiful one as walking
92:34 described a beautiful one as walking with your wife these long these long
92:36 with your wife these long these long hikes and walks like real relating
92:39 hikes and walks like real relating in-person relating I think uh makes us
92:43 in-person relating I think uh makes us feel so many things. I mean there's so
92:45 feel so many things. I mean there's so much science and psychology about this
92:46 much science and psychology about this that I mean we definitely evolve to to
92:49 that I mean we definitely evolve to to connect
92:50 connect to other humans. Absolutely. you know,
92:52 to other humans. Absolutely. you know, so I I don't think of it as um
92:55 so I I don't think of it as um meaningless relaxation to to just
92:57 meaningless relaxation to to just connect with people and have a barbecue
92:59 connect with people and have a barbecue and just relax or just what what do they
93:01 and just relax or just what what do they call it? Like Netflix and chill can be a
93:03 call it? Like Netflix and chill can be a great thing if it's not the only thing.
93:05 great thing if it's not the only thing. The internet has allowed us a lot of
93:07 The internet has allowed us a lot of interesting new ways to connect with
93:08 interesting new ways to connect with other people. Um so we were talking
93:11 other people. Um so we were talking before we uh hit the red button on
93:13 before we uh hit the red button on record how I'm into the Grateful Dead,
93:15 record how I'm into the Grateful Dead, right? And I think that you can find a
93:17 right? And I think that you can find a lot of different sort of strange tribes
93:19 lot of different sort of strange tribes to belong to and they can be enhanced by
93:22 to belong to and they can be enhanced by the internet. You know, it's like when I
93:24 the internet. You know, it's like when I got into the dead, it was like, okay,
93:27 got into the dead, it was like, okay, now I'm listening to the the live shows.
93:29 now I'm listening to the the live shows. I'm going down this rabbit hole. Well,
93:30 I'm going down this rabbit hole. Well, I'd find these Reddit threads where
93:31 I'd find these Reddit threads where people are discussing the live shows and
93:33 people are discussing the live shows and like, hey, if you listen to how Jerry
93:34 like, hey, if you listen to how Jerry plays this song in 78 versus 79. And I'm
93:37 plays this song in 78 versus 79. And I'm like, oh, okay, listen. Oh, wow. Yeah,
93:39 like, oh, okay, listen. Oh, wow. Yeah, that's really interesting. So then you
93:41 that's really interesting. So then you start weighing in and then you're
93:42 start weighing in and then you're friends with, you know, Deadhead 778 who
93:45 friends with, you know, Deadhead 778 who you don't even know who the hell he is
93:46 you don't even know who the hell he is or where the hell he lives, but like
93:47 or where the hell he lives, but like this is a great guy online that I can
93:49 this is a great guy online that I can talk to and then you eventually sort of
93:51 talk to and then you eventually sort of find yourself at the shows and you're
93:53 find yourself at the shows and you're connecting with these people that you
93:55 connecting with these people that you would probably otherwise never connect
93:56 would probably otherwise never connect with in normal life and there's like,
93:59 with in normal life and there's like, you know, the hippie who's got like two
94:00 you know, the hippie who's got like two bucks in a dream to get to the next show
94:02 bucks in a dream to get to the next show in tie-dye. And then there's the hippie
94:04 in tie-dye. And then there's the hippie who's got the Rolex and he's taking his
94:06 who's got the Rolex and he's taking his private jet to the next show on your
94:07 private jet to the next show on your right. But you're all in it together,
94:10 right. But you're all in it together, you know, and you're sort of like
94:11 you know, and you're sort of like connecting for this sort of big sort of
94:13 connecting for this sort of big sort of group thing. And I think you could apply
94:15 group thing. And I think you could apply that to music, you could apply it to
94:18 that to music, you could apply it to sports teams, this sort of shared cause.
94:20 sports teams, this sort of shared cause. And the internet, I do think, can allow
94:22 And the internet, I do think, can allow you to find those sort of many tribes,
94:24 you to find those sort of many tribes, you know? Yeah, I love it. I just now um
94:28 you know? Yeah, I love it. I just now um allowing myself to get familiar with the
94:29 allowing myself to get familiar with the Grateful Dead. I did go to a bunch of
94:31 Grateful Dead. I did go to a bunch of shows because they were from my
94:32 shows because they were from my hometown, right? Awesome. They
94:34 hometown, right? Awesome. They California Avenue was where Drapers
94:36 California Avenue was where Drapers Music and some of those Grateful Dead
94:38 Music and some of those Grateful Dead band members worked and uh there was a
94:40 band members worked and uh there was a great bookstore there, Printers, Inc.
94:42 great bookstore there, Printers, Inc. and uh so they were kind of an
94:44 and uh so they were kind of an institution in the South Bay where I
94:45 institution in the South Bay where I grew up. But uh I fell into a different
94:47 grew up. But uh I fell into a different genre of music, but um there's some
94:49 genre of music, but um there's some great music um that out there, but I
94:53 great music um that out there, but I think the culture around the dead, the
94:54 think the culture around the dead, the fact that people would devote their
94:56 fact that people would devote their entire lives to quote unquote following
94:57 entire lives to quote unquote following the dead. Um and still now like people
95:00 the dead. Um and still now like people go Oh, totally. like with Fish and Dead
95:02 go Oh, totally. like with Fish and Dead In Company. This is like an outgrowth of
95:04 In Company. This is like an outgrowth of the of uh of something that I don't know
95:07 the of uh of something that I don't know of any other band that that had people
95:10 of any other band that that had people change their entire lives in terms of
95:12 change their entire lives in terms of the whole structure of their lives.
95:15 the whole structure of their lives. Yeah. I mean, I went a bunch of times
95:17 Yeah. I mean, I went a bunch of times when they're in Vegas at the Sphere. I
95:18 when they're in Vegas at the Sphere. I have another fun thing and there's like
95:20 have another fun thing and there's like that shared sense of connection whether
95:22 that shared sense of connection whether it's a sports team, whether it's a
95:25 it's a sports team, whether it's a hobby, whether it's a type of music. Um
95:27 hobby, whether it's a type of music. Um when we were when I was on this long
95:29 when we were when I was on this long hike, um you get within shooting
95:31 hike, um you get within shooting distances of towns and that's where you
95:32 distances of towns and that's where you have to go resupply. But you might be 40
95:34 have to go resupply. But you might be 40 miles from a town. So you're like, "All
95:35 miles from a town. So you're like, "All right, we got to hitchhike, right?" So
95:38 right, we got to hitchhike, right?" So we got to ride into this town called
95:39 we got to ride into this town called Escalan, Utah. It's this tiny town. So
95:42 Escalan, Utah. It's this tiny town. So we go restock food, you know, we each
95:44 we go restock food, you know, we each eat like a 16inch pizza ourselves and
95:48 eat like a 16inch pizza ourselves and like wings because you got to refuel.
95:50 like wings because you got to refuel. And then we're at this gear store and we
95:52 And then we're at this gear store and we need a ride back to the trail head. It's
95:54 need a ride back to the trail head. It's like 40 miles away. So, it's like, how
95:55 like 40 miles away. So, it's like, how the hell are we going to find a ride?
95:56 the hell are we going to find a ride? Like, this is going to take forever to
95:57 Like, this is going to take forever to hitchhike. I'm in this gear store and um
96:00 hitchhike. I'm in this gear store and um they happen to have this uh I can't
96:02 they happen to have this uh I can't remember what it was. It might have been
96:03 remember what it was. It might have been like a beanie or something that had a
96:04 like a beanie or something that had a dead head on it. I picked it up. I'm
96:06 dead head on it. I picked it up. I'm like, "Oh, this is awesome." And this
96:07 like, "Oh, this is awesome." And this lady comes up to me and she goes, "Oh,
96:08 lady comes up to me and she goes, "Oh, you like the dead?" Like, "Yeah, I like
96:09 you like the dead?" Like, "Yeah, I like the dead." And she works in the shop and
96:11 the dead." And she works in the shop and she's like, "Yeah, me too." We start
96:12 she's like, "Yeah, me too." We start talking. Well, turns out this lady's
96:14 talking. Well, turns out this lady's seen him like 500 to a thousand times
96:17 seen him like 500 to a thousand times was her estimate. Like, well, it's a big
96:18 was her estimate. Like, well, it's a big estimate, but that's a lot of shows,
96:20 estimate, but that's a lot of shows, right? Um, and we just immediately
96:22 right? Um, and we just immediately connect and she's like, "Oh, you need a
96:24 connect and she's like, "Oh, you need a ride back to the trail head." I'm like,
96:26 ride back to the trail head." I'm like, "That would be great." Yeah. And it's
96:28 "That would be great." Yeah. And it's just like just that thing, that little
96:30 just like just that thing, that little emblem of the dead immediately allowed
96:33 emblem of the dead immediately allowed us to have this conversation and have
96:36 us to have this conversation and have this fi this shared sense of connection.
96:38 this fi this shared sense of connection. So, kind of finding something to
96:40 So, kind of finding something to identify with with people, I think, can
96:42 identify with with people, I think, can be just like a a great adventure. And
96:44 be just like a a great adventure. And like you meet new people, like go out
96:46 like you meet new people, like go out and find interesting communities to
96:47 and find interesting communities to belong to, try stuff. I mean, this is
96:49 belong to, try stuff. I mean, this is the power. So, you had um Ryan in for
96:52 the power. So, you had um Ryan in for the recovery and addiction podcast. Like
96:54 the recovery and addiction podcast. Like that's Yeah, that's the power of
96:56 that's Yeah, that's the power of recovery groups. It's the power is in
96:59 recovery groups. It's the power is in the group because you've got this shared
97:01 the group because you've got this shared identity with people. You have people
97:02 identity with people. You have people keeping tabs on you. You're keeping tabs
97:04 keeping tabs on you. You're keeping tabs on other people. They help you. You help
97:06 on other people. They help you. You help them. You share your stories. They know
97:08 them. You share your stories. They know things about you that probably no one
97:09 things about you that probably no one else does. And there's an identity in
97:12 else does. And there's an identity in that. And it's powerful. It's why that
97:15 that. And it's powerful. It's why that works. If you you know if uh I'm gonna
97:18 works. If you you know if uh I'm gonna forget the names of the founders, Bill
97:19 forget the names of the founders, Bill Wilson if he found if he founded that
97:21 Wilson if he found if he founded that online and was like, "Hey, we're all
97:23 online and was like, "Hey, we're all just going to chat on AOL Messenger
97:25 just going to chat on AOL Messenger probably would have helped a lot of
97:27 probably would have helped a lot of people, but it would not have the power
97:28 people, but it would not have the power that it would have of getting people
97:30 that it would have of getting people together to converse." I think it's
97:33 together to converse." I think it's harder for people to go out and do that
97:34 harder for people to go out and do that today because there is a it's it's much
97:36 today because there is a it's it's much easier to only do things sort of online
97:40 easier to only do things sort of online and sort of, you know, be a little bit
97:43 and sort of, you know, be a little bit of a a hermit, if you will. And I think
97:46 of a a hermit, if you will. And I think forcing yourself to go into new places,
97:49 forcing yourself to go into new places, meet new people, try new things, get
97:51 meet new people, try new things, get into new stuff, and go out and meet
97:53 into new stuff, and go out and meet people in in person can be really
97:55 people in in person can be really powerful. Today, I wrote a post on 2%
97:59 powerful. Today, I wrote a post on 2% about the value of gathering and sort of
98:02 about the value of gathering and sort of identifying identifying with something
98:04 identifying identifying with something like whether it be a band or a team or
98:07 like whether it be a band or a team or whatever. Um, and I talked to this
98:08 whatever. Um, and I talked to this researcher. Um, she's up in Oregon. I
98:10 researcher. Um, she's up in Oregon. I forget what university. Uh, and I'm
98:12 forget what university. Uh, and I'm sorry for that, but she talked about
98:14 sorry for that, but she talked about how, um, the internet when used
98:16 how, um, the internet when used appropriately can be a really great
98:18 appropriately can be a really great community builder. And she also said the
98:21 community builder. And she also said the best thing that can happen is when those
98:23 best thing that can happen is when those type of communities then figure out ways
98:26 type of communities then figure out ways to meet up in person. Like that's that's
98:29 to meet up in person. Like that's that's the perfect next step. And it all starts
98:31 the perfect next step. And it all starts with like, okay, we have this community
98:33 with like, okay, we have this community online. Oh, I'm going to be in San
98:36 online. Oh, I'm going to be in San Francisco. who in the group is San
98:38 Francisco. who in the group is San Francisco based? Let's meet up and get
98:40 Francisco based? Let's meet up and get coffee. And I do think you're starting
98:41 coffee. And I do think you're starting to see more of that happen. Like it's
98:43 to see more of that happen. Like it's happening on Substack with a lot of
98:45 happening on Substack with a lot of writers. Um for example, I do events
98:47 writers. Um for example, I do events that I call the Don't Die event. And um
98:50 that I call the Don't Die event. And um it's me. It's this is different than the
98:52 it's me. It's this is different than the Brian Johnson Don't Die event. Yeah,
98:53 Brian Johnson Don't Die event. Yeah, this is different. Yeah, this is
98:54 this is different. Yeah, this is different. This is the original Don't
98:55 different. This is the original Don't Die. This is a different type of Don't
98:56 Die. This is a different type of Don't Die. Yeah, the original Don't Die. Um
98:58 Die. Yeah, the original Don't Die. Um what we do is it's uh me and my friend
99:01 what we do is it's uh me and my friend Mike Moreno. Amazing guy. Mike was a was
99:04 Mike Moreno. Amazing guy. Mike was a was a CIA case officer in uh Iraq and
99:08 a CIA case officer in uh Iraq and Afghanistan I believe and um we
99:11 Afghanistan I believe and um we basically teach people like travel
99:13 basically teach people like travel wilderness survival skills over two days
99:15 wilderness survival skills over two days and so it's most of the people that come
99:16 and so it's most of the people that come are from people who read my Substack and
99:19 are from people who read my Substack and so it's people who are often active in
99:20 so it's people who are often active in the comments. they they all know each
99:21 the comments. they they all know each other. Like people show up and they know
99:23 other. Like people show up and they know each other from the internet and then we
99:25 each other from the internet and then we all hang out and we do awesome stuff
99:26 all hang out and we do awesome stuff together and it's just like it's the
99:28 together and it's just like it's the best. But it's like that step to get
99:31 best. But it's like that step to get people in person I think needs to
99:33 people in person I think needs to happen. And so one thing I've even
99:35 happen. And so one thing I've even thought about too is you hear a lot
99:38 thought about too is you hear a lot about how um people spend less time
99:41 about how um people spend less time together and there's a variety of
99:43 together and there's a variety of reasons for that. you know, people will
99:44 reasons for that. you know, people will point to the sort of less activity in
99:47 point to the sort of less activity in organized religion, which used to be the
99:49 organized religion, which used to be the sort of hub of sociality in in towns.
99:52 sort of hub of sociality in in towns. But I also think um things like, and I
99:57 But I also think um things like, and I talked to a uh woman I love, she's she
100:00 talked to a uh woman I love, she's she was with the Wall Street Journal. She's
100:01 was with the Wall Street Journal. She's back at the Wall Street Journal, a
100:02 back at the Wall Street Journal, a reporter. Um her name is Gwendalyn
100:04 reporter. Um her name is Gwendalyn Bounds, Wendy Bounds and she wrote a
100:07 Bounds, Wendy Bounds and she wrote a book called Little Chapel on the River
100:09 book called Little Chapel on the River and it's about she was at the Wall
100:11 and it's about she was at the Wall Street Journal uh when 911 happened and
100:14 Street Journal uh when 911 happened and she was living in the city like she was
100:16 she was living in the city like she was taking a shower and the plants hit the
100:17 taking a shower and the plants hit the towers and so to get out of the city she
100:19 towers and so to get out of the city she ended up moving to this town called
100:20 ended up moving to this town called Garrison, New York and the heart of this
100:23 Garrison, New York and the heart of this town is this old Irish pub that is right
100:27 town is this old Irish pub that is right by the train station. And she's like,
100:29 by the train station. And she's like, "And people from this town would come to
100:31 "And people from this town would come to this Irish pub and they might have one
100:35 this Irish pub and they might have one drink, two drinks, but it was like the
100:37 drink, two drinks, but it was like the hangout and you'd get, you know, people
100:39 hangout and you'd get, you know, people who were super right leaning, people who
100:42 who were super right leaning, people who were super leftle leaning in the bar,
100:43 were super leftle leaning in the bar, and they would, you know, they'd give
100:44 and they would, you know, they'd give each other but it was all in fun."
100:46 each other but it was all in fun." And it was like the heart of community
100:48 And it was like the heart of community and gathering and human connection. And
100:51 and gathering and human connection. And I think you're starting to see a little
100:54 I think you're starting to see a little bit of a death of places like that. You
100:58 bit of a death of places like that. You know, like the the community pillar
101:00 know, like the the community pillar institution is sort of been replaced by,
101:03 institution is sort of been replaced by, you know, chains or something. And like,
101:06 you know, chains or something. And like, yeah, people can gather at chains, but
101:07 yeah, people can gather at chains, but there's not like that unique identity.
101:10 there's not like that unique identity. It's all like predetermined by someone
101:11 It's all like predetermined by someone in a corporate office 3,000 miles away.
101:14 in a corporate office 3,000 miles away. And I think there's a case for like
101:17 And I think there's a case for like trying to find those places that still
101:19 trying to find those places that still exist and hang out, whether it be, you
101:22 exist and hang out, whether it be, you know, the pub. You don't even have to
101:23 know, the pub. You don't even have to drink at pubs. I can tell you that. I
101:24 drink at pubs. I can tell you that. I don't drink. Still go hang out at the
101:26 don't drink. Still go hang out at the bar. Um, and I love bars. I sometimes
101:28 bar. Um, and I love bars. I sometimes work in bars and I don't drink. Yeah,
101:30 work in bars and I don't drink. Yeah, it's great. Restaurants, whatever it
101:32 it's great. Restaurants, whatever it might be. I think there's a case to get
101:33 might be. I think there's a case to get out in the world. And again, you know,
101:34 out in the world. And again, you know, I'll go back to the the comfort crisis
101:36 I'll go back to the the comfort crisis that I think sometimes that is hard to
101:40 that I think sometimes that is hard to just go somewhere. You're like the new
101:42 just go somewhere. You're like the new guy. Hey guys, you know, um, and to
101:46 guy. Hey guys, you know, um, and to strike up a conversation with someone
101:47 strike up a conversation with someone random. But I do think it is, um, really
101:50 random. But I do think it is, um, really good for us in the long term. I think,
101:51 good for us in the long term. I think, too, the internet dehumanizes people,
101:54 too, the internet dehumanizes people, right? It's, um, it's easy to yell and
101:57 right? It's, um, it's easy to yell and scream at an icon that's, you know, the
102:01 scream at an icon that's, you know, the size of a thumbtack on the screen who
102:03 size of a thumbtack on the screen who said one thing, but if that same person
102:05 said one thing, but if that same person was in person across from you, across
102:08 was in person across from you, across from the bar from you,
102:10 from the bar from you, you may not even talk about politics
102:12 you may not even talk about politics with that person, right? And here
102:13 with that person, right? And here you've, you know, people make these
102:15 you've, you know, people make these crazy death threats or something.
102:16 crazy death threats or something. Whereas like if that person was just
102:17 Whereas like if that person was just across the bar from you, you may not
102:18 across the bar from you, you may not even talk about that and you might
102:19 even talk about that and you might actually think they're a great person.
102:21 actually think they're a great person. I'll give you another example. More
102:23 I'll give you another example. More hitchhiking. Um, so we had to get uh we
102:27 hitchhiking. Um, so we had to get uh we got into this town when we're on this
102:28 got into this town when we're on this hike, resupply. We need to get up to the
102:31 hike, resupply. We need to get up to the trail head. This trail head's um 20
102:34 trail head. This trail head's um 20 minute drive away or something. Um these
102:37 minute drive away or something. Um these people pull over
102:39 people pull over and they say because we got our thumbs
102:40 and they say because we got our thumbs out, you know, we're like old school
102:43 out, you know, we're like old school hobos and um say, "Oh, do you need a
102:45 hobos and um say, "Oh, do you need a ride?" And it was this couple from
102:48 ride?" And it was this couple from China. They had come over uh a week ago
102:51 China. They had come over uh a week ago just for some vacation. They're both
102:53 just for some vacation. They're both from China. This was at the heart of the
102:55 from China. This was at the heart of the trade war. The trade war was at its apex
102:59 trade war. The trade war was at its apex when this happens, right? China had just
103:01 when this happens, right? China had just like decided they're not even going to
103:02 like decided they're not even going to ship us the some rare minerals we
103:04 ship us the some rare minerals we needed. I wasn't paying too much
103:06 needed. I wasn't paying too much attention to the news out there, but I
103:07 attention to the news out there, but I was aware of that. We get in the car
103:09 was aware of that. We get in the car with this couple from China and like
103:12 with this couple from China and like that's all happening in the world.
103:14 that's all happening in the world. And guess what? No one gave a about
103:17 And guess what? No one gave a about in that moment.
103:19 in that moment. All this media on CNN and Fox and social
103:23 All this media on CNN and Fox and social feeds and everything about the damn
103:25 feeds and everything about the damn trade war. these two Americans, one of
103:28 trade war. these two Americans, one of who worked in government for 20 years,
103:30 who worked in government for 20 years, these two people from China, and we're
103:33 these two people from China, and we're just connecting, talking about the
103:35 just connecting, talking about the United States versus what it's like to
103:36 United States versus what it's like to live in China. Oh, you guys are
103:38 live in China. Oh, you guys are academics. Oh, it's fantastic. We're
103:40 academics. Oh, it's fantastic. We're just really, really connecting, and
103:42 just really, really connecting, and they're doing us this huge favor of
103:44 they're doing us this huge favor of giving us a ride up to the trail head.
103:47 giving us a ride up to the trail head. And these are two people that like
103:49 And these are two people that like these, this is awesome. These people are
103:51 these, this is awesome. These people are great. and like no one gave a about
103:52 great. and like no one gave a about all this noise happening that should
103:55 all this noise happening that should seemingly put us in this like maybe
103:57 seemingly put us in this like maybe tense moment, right? So I think that
103:59 tense moment, right? So I think that when you actually get in front of people
104:00 when you actually get in front of people and face to face, people have about 75
104:04 and face to face, people have about 75 million more things in common than they
104:07 million more things in common than they do things that are not in common that
104:09 do things that are not in common that they could argue about. And it takes
104:11 they could argue about. And it takes that interaction and going out into the
104:14 that interaction and going out into the world. I found that when I travel,
104:18 world. I found that when I travel, people everywhere are far more kind,
104:23 people everywhere are far more kind, happy, willing to help
104:25 happy, willing to help than I would have ever expected. And I
104:28 than I would have ever expected. And I had high expectations going in. But it
104:30 had high expectations going in. But it takes those experiences to realize that.
104:32 takes those experiences to realize that. And I do think that if you're kind of
104:34 And I do think that if you're kind of just existing behind a screen where it's
104:36 just existing behind a screen where it's easy for people to shout, you get this
104:38 easy for people to shout, you get this distorted view of the world. It's like
104:40 distorted view of the world. It's like go out, talk to people, have different
104:42 go out, talk to people, have different experiences. You're going to walk away
104:44 experiences. You're going to walk away realizing that, hey, most people are
104:46 realizing that, hey, most people are actually totally fantastic if you just
104:48 actually totally fantastic if you just give them the time today, talk to them,
104:50 give them the time today, talk to them, ask them questions, and be nice. Like,
104:53 ask them questions, and be nice. Like, being nice is the number one tool in my
104:56 being nice is the number one tool in my tool book to survive and get along at my
105:00 tool book to survive and get along at my job and do all these different like just
105:02 job and do all these different like just be nice to people and you'll find that
105:04 be nice to people and you'll find that most people are nice back. It's this uh
105:08 most people are nice back. It's this uh starting in the real world and perhaps
105:10 starting in the real world and perhaps bringing something online, you know,
105:12 bringing something online, you know, posting about it or writing about the
105:14 posting about it or writing about the great experience later as opposed to the
105:15 great experience later as opposed to the online experience brought it into the
105:17 online experience brought it into the world. The I have a friend that's uh uh
105:20 world. The I have a friend that's uh uh he's a very accomplished musician and um
105:23 he's a very accomplished musician and um he doesn't do his own social media and
105:25 he doesn't do his own social media and um we get together for dinner once every
105:28 um we get together for dinner once every couple of weeks and once I got out there
105:29 couple of weeks and once I got out there and I said, "Oh yeah, I saw this thing
105:31 and I said, "Oh yeah, I saw this thing online." He said, "I don't want to hear
105:33 online." He said, "I don't want to hear about social media." And I I realized in
105:36 about social media." And I I realized in that moment I was like, "Okay, got it."
105:37 that moment I was like, "Okay, got it." Like we we're not going to talk about
105:38 Like we we're not going to talk about something that was on social media. Why
105:40 something that was on social media. Why would we do that in his mind like why
105:42 would we do that in his mind like why would we do that? We're here. Like why?
105:44 would we do that? We're here. Like why? Let's have an experience now. And I
105:45 Let's have an experience now. And I think this can be easy too. And I'm I'm
105:47 think this can be easy too. And I'm I'm going to because I didn't say this and
105:49 going to because I didn't say this and it came to my mind when we were talking
105:50 it came to my mind when we were talking about Mogi. When I talk about this and I
105:53 about Mogi. When I talk about this and I say, you know, something I did that
105:55 say, you know, something I did that might seem hard for people. Um I'll put
105:58 might seem hard for people. Um I'll put a cav caveat on that is that there's way
106:01 a cav caveat on that is that there's way more people out there doing even more
106:03 more people out there doing even more extreme things. At the same time,
106:05 extreme things. At the same time, there's people whose entry point like
106:06 there's people whose entry point like you got to meet, you got to do the thing
106:09 you got to meet, you got to do the thing where you're at. So, I gave this talk,
106:12 where you're at. So, I gave this talk, right? And I talked about masogi in the
106:13 right? And I talked about masogi in the talk and afterwards this lady comes up
106:16 talk and afterwards this lady comes up to me and she goes, "Hey, I had read
106:19 to me and she goes, "Hey, I had read your book and I learned about this
106:21 your book and I learned about this masogi idea and she goes, "My masogi was
106:25 masogi idea and she goes, "My masogi was trying sushi." I go, "Trying sushi?" And
106:28 trying sushi." I go, "Trying sushi?" And she goes, "It's trying sushi." I go,
106:30 she goes, "It's trying sushi." I go, "Okay, tell me about that." She goes,"I
106:33 "Okay, tell me about that." She goes,"I just always had this fear around sushi,
106:35 just always had this fear around sushi, but people told me it was good, but I
106:36 but people told me it was good, but I just couldn't. I couldn't do it. I
106:38 just couldn't. I couldn't do it. I forced myself to do it." She's like, "I
106:41 forced myself to do it." She's like, "I didn't love it, but I didn't hate it."
106:44 didn't love it, but I didn't hate it." But more importantly, it taught me what
106:47 But more importantly, it taught me what other fears do I have about things that
106:50 other fears do I have about things that are probably totally fine. And that
106:53 are probably totally fine. And that opened this big door for me to go try
106:55 opened this big door for me to go try all sorts of new things. Like, oh well,
106:57 all sorts of new things. Like, oh well, I'm kind of afraid of flying alone. What
106:59 I'm kind of afraid of flying alone. What if I went and took a trip and visited a
107:01 if I went and took a trip and visited a friend? Now I got to go hang out with my
107:03 friend? Now I got to go hang out with my friend. Like it just opens doors, right?
107:04 friend. Like it just opens doors, right? And so really, it can be anything. Can
107:07 And so really, it can be anything. Can be something totally ex objectively
107:10 be something totally ex objectively extreme and crazy. It can be trying
107:13 extreme and crazy. It can be trying sushi. Just try something. So it's
107:16 sushi. Just try something. So it's really about pushing up against those
107:17 really about pushing up against those edges in real life, wherever the edge
107:20 edges in real life, wherever the edge is. Do you think it's possible to
107:22 is. Do you think it's possible to structure one's day around making the
107:26 structure one's day around making the morning and day really tough? And when I
107:29 morning and day really tough? And when I say tough, I mean um in the sense that
107:31 say tough, I mean um in the sense that you go against your um impulse to do
107:34 you go against your um impulse to do things the easy way and then making your
107:37 things the easy way and then making your evenings and nights really relaxing.
107:39 evenings and nights really relaxing. Yeah, I try and do that. Um I'll get
107:42 Yeah, I try and do that. Um I'll get into the heinous details about my
107:44 into the heinous details about my evenings in a moment, but I'll tell you
107:45 evenings in a moment, but I'll tell you about my mornings. And I'd actually like
107:47 about my mornings. And I'd actually like to hear about how you approach this,
107:48 to hear about how you approach this, too. Um so in the morning, I wake up uh
107:51 too. Um so in the morning, I wake up uh usually very early. Now I'll I'll put a
107:54 usually very early. Now I'll I'll put a asterisk there that I also go to bed
107:56 asterisk there that I also go to bed early. So, I wake up at like in between
107:57 early. So, I wake up at like in between 3:30 and 4:30. What time do you go to
107:59 3:30 and 4:30. What time do you go to sleep? Probably 8:30. Okay. So, wake up
108:03 sleep? Probably 8:30. Okay. So, wake up at 3:30,
108:05 at 3:30, get a cup of coffee, immediately I go to
108:07 get a cup of coffee, immediately I go to my desk and I just I write and I sit
108:12 my desk and I just I write and I sit there and to your point, it takes a
108:14 there and to your point, it takes a little bit of that warm up, right? Um,
108:17 little bit of that warm up, right? Um, but I know as a writer, the more time
108:20 but I know as a writer, the more time I'm in my chair behind that keyboard,
108:23 I'm in my chair behind that keyboard, the more likely I am to produce words
108:25 the more likely I am to produce words that um work for the goal I'm trying to
108:28 that um work for the goal I'm trying to accomplish. So, I need that say four or
108:31 accomplish. So, I need that say four or five hours every single day. And it is
108:34 five hours every single day. And it is hard. It's usually like the first two
108:36 hard. It's usually like the first two hours of just like, "Oh, you suck at
108:38 hours of just like, "Oh, you suck at this. This is terrible. Why did you
108:41 this. This is terrible. Why did you choose this career?" How does your body
108:43 choose this career?" How does your body feel physically is writing hard for you?
108:45 feel physically is writing hard for you? Like is the chair comfortable? Are you
108:48 Like is the chair comfortable? Are you feeling strained? Are you relaxed? Is it
108:50 feeling strained? Are you relaxed? Is it all just mentally hard or is it
108:51 all just mentally hard or is it physically demanding as well? I would
108:54 physically demanding as well? I would say it's more mentally. You kind of just
108:56 say it's more mentally. You kind of just get in it. For me, it's like you get in
108:58 get in it. For me, it's like you get in this zone and you're like, I got this
109:00 this zone and you're like, I got this idea like how am I going to put this
109:02 idea like how am I going to put this down? And you write something out.
109:03 down? And you write something out. You're like, that's not it. But there's
109:04 You're like, that's not it. But there's like this one nugget. Okay, take that
109:06 like this one nugget. Okay, take that one nugget. Now, what can we do with
109:08 one nugget. Now, what can we do with that? And it's kind of like putting
109:09 that? And it's kind of like putting together this really like kind of
109:11 together this really like kind of difficult puzzle. Um, but I've also
109:13 difficult puzzle. Um, but I've also found that eventually you kind of start
109:14 found that eventually you kind of start to hit a stride and things start to
109:16 to hit a stride and things start to work. And I I know that some days I'm
109:19 work. And I I know that some days I'm going to sit there for five hours and
109:20 going to sit there for five hours and I'm going to get out like 300 words and
109:22 I'm going to get out like 300 words and they're going to be okay. But some days
109:25 they're going to be okay. But some days like just boom, magic happens and I
109:27 like just boom, magic happens and I might bang out like 3,000 words and I'm
109:29 might bang out like 3,000 words and I'm like those are those are decent those
109:32 like those are those are decent those are decent words. But if I'm not there
109:34 are decent words. But if I'm not there doing that every single morning despite
109:36 doing that every single morning despite knowing that most days it's probably
109:37 knowing that most days it's probably going to be hard, like book's not going
109:39 going to be hard, like book's not going to write itself, right? So, I do think
109:42 to write itself, right? So, I do think like with a lot of things that um a
109:45 like with a lot of things that um a person might want to improve in,
109:47 person might want to improve in, you really do have to be willing to put
109:50 you really do have to be willing to put in the time and realize that this is
109:52 in the time and realize that this is going to be there's going to be really
109:53 going to be there's going to be really challenging moments. Um but those
109:56 challenging moments. Um but those challenging moments, they also make the
109:57 challenging moments, they also make the days when you get the metaphorical 3,000
110:00 days when you get the metaphorical 3,000 decent words, they make it just awesome.
110:02 decent words, they make it just awesome. So, to lean into that, so that's kind of
110:04 So, to lean into that, so that's kind of like how I approach my mornings and
110:06 like how I approach my mornings and evenings. Um, like I kind of alluded to
110:08 evenings. Um, like I kind of alluded to with social media, how now I've just
110:10 with social media, how now I've just kind of let off and just let myself be
110:12 kind of let off and just let myself be okay with just letting my brain turn
110:14 okay with just letting my brain turn off.
110:15 off. My wife and I watch some pretty heinous
110:18 My wife and I watch some pretty heinous reality television. That is our thing.
110:21 reality television. That is our thing. Turn on big fan of Real Housewives of
110:24 Turn on big fan of Real Housewives of Salt Lake City. Okay, I will admit it.
110:26 Salt Lake City. Okay, I will admit it. Okay. I I confess I've never seen that
110:28 Okay. I I confess I've never seen that one. Is it don't start
110:32 one. Is it don't start just watch stuff like that and it's just
110:34 just watch stuff like that and it's just like you know can connect over this
110:35 like you know can connect over this totally just mindless show and it's
110:37 totally just mindless show and it's almost like it's kind of a reset. It's
110:39 almost like it's kind of a reset. It's like you know those ladies throwing
110:41 like you know those ladies throwing drinks in each other's faces screaming
110:44 drinks in each other's faces screaming at each other. It's just a nice little
110:45 at each other. It's just a nice little beep. Your brain's reset for the day. So
110:48 beep. Your brain's reset for the day. So you're writing from about 3:30 in the
110:50 you're writing from about 3:30 in the morning, 4 in the morning until you said
110:52 morning, 4 in the morning until you said about four hours. Yeah, four or five
110:53 about four hours. Yeah, four or five hours. Yeah. All you're getting up to
110:55 hours. Yeah. All you're getting up to use the the bathroom. Yeah. Yeah, you're
110:57 use the the bathroom. Yeah. Yeah, you're drinking some more coffee, some more
110:58 drinking some more coffee, some more water. Yeah, I might get another coffee.
111:00 water. Yeah, I might get another coffee. You have breakfast before usually after
111:02 You have breakfast before usually after after. And then what happens um between
111:05 after. And then what happens um between 8 am and uh and really house and Salt
111:09 8 am and uh and really house and Salt Lake City housewife
111:11 Lake City housewife she called after I've got like the key
111:13 she called after I've got like the key core writing in. I would say that then I
111:16 core writing in. I would say that then I um focus on what I not eloquently at all
111:20 um focus on what I not eloquently at all say would be the sort of you
111:22 say would be the sort of you know, like we got all these emails to
111:23 know, like we got all these emails to respond to, got to do sort of this task
111:25 respond to, got to do sort of this task and that task. um whatever project isn't
111:28 and that task. um whatever project isn't sort of like my main writing probably
111:30 sort of like my main writing probably is not the right word for it
111:31 is not the right word for it because it's important stuff but I just
111:33 because it's important stuff but I just sort of value that writing time and then
111:35 sort of value that writing time and then I will usually uh I'll usually exercise
111:38 I will usually uh I'll usually exercise before I eat dinner usually around 4 um
111:42 before I eat dinner usually around 4 um I tried exercising in the morning for a
111:44 I tried exercising in the morning for a while but I realized that that is like
111:45 while but I realized that that is like my peak hours for writing and that was
111:49 my peak hours for writing and that was kind of getting interrupted and so I'm
111:51 kind of getting interrupted and so I'm like okay I'm good with it being before
111:53 like okay I'm good with it being before dinner. Do you do caffeine before your
111:54 dinner. Do you do caffeine before your afternoon workout? I'm just curious. No,
111:57 afternoon workout? I'm just curious. No, not usually. I usually shut off uh
112:00 not usually. I usually shut off uh caffeine
112:02 caffeine probably around noon. Probably heard
112:04 probably around noon. Probably heard that on this podcast actually. But I
112:06 that on this podcast actually. But I found I actually years ago
112:08 found I actually years ago um
112:10 um I did a sort of caffeine audit and my
112:14 I did a sort of caffeine audit and my caffeine was out of control.
112:17 caffeine was out of control. And so I just did cold turkey quit. I
112:20 And so I just did cold turkey quit. I felt like I was literally had the like
112:23 felt like I was literally had the like felt like I had the flu for about 28
112:25 felt like I had the flu for about 28 hours and then I slept for 18 hours
112:27 hours and then I slept for 18 hours straight and then I had a headache for a
112:29 straight and then I had a headache for a week. Um but I felt a little better and
112:31 week. Um but I felt a little better and so I've tried to be a little more
112:32 so I've tried to be a little more cognizant of how's the intake going.
112:34 cognizant of how's the intake going. Some days I'm better than others. You
112:36 Some days I'm better than others. You know, sometimes sometimes I go, "So you
112:39 know, sometimes sometimes I go, "So you had two
112:42 had two 32 ounce cold brews today. Um, seems
112:45 32 ounce cold brews today. Um, seems like a lot of caffeine for one man, you
112:47 like a lot of caffeine for one man, you know, but you can do I mean, you're
112:49 know, but you can do I mean, you're talking to a lifelong caffeine addict
112:52 talking to a lifelong caffeine addict here. So, I I unless I've had a cold or
112:54 here. So, I I unless I've had a cold or a flu, I I don't take breaks. And I
112:56 a flu, I I don't take breaks. And I consume an outrageous amount of
112:57 consume an outrageous amount of caffeine. How much do you think you
112:58 caffeine. How much do you think you consume? Um, I'm going to shock some
113:00 consume? Um, I'm going to shock some people, but I'm very caffeine tolerant.
113:02 people, but I'm very caffeine tolerant. I should say that first. And um uh and
113:05 I should say that first. And um uh and I'm actually a pretty mellow person.
113:08 I'm actually a pretty mellow person. Yeah. Um, and I
113:11 Yeah. Um, and I probably consume distributed from the
113:14 probably consume distributed from the morning until about 2 or 3 p.m. Usually
113:17 morning until about 2 or 3 p.m. Usually 2 p.m. is my cut off. Um, somewhere
113:19 2 p.m. is my cut off. Um, somewhere between 600 and 800 milligrams of
113:21 between 600 and 800 milligrams of caffeine a day. But before people bulk
113:24 caffeine a day. But before people bulk at that, keep in mind that when you look
113:26 at that, keep in mind that when you look up online, you know, you go, "Oh, Chad
113:27 up online, you know, you go, "Oh, Chad GPT, how much caffeine is in a typical
113:30 GPT, how much caffeine is in a typical cup of coffee?" It's going to say like
113:31 cup of coffee?" It's going to say like 150 milligrams of caffeine. If you go to
113:35 150 milligrams of caffeine. If you go to like a Starbucks or a Pete's coffee or
113:37 like a Starbucks or a Pete's coffee or they're brewing it much stronger than
113:39 they're brewing it much stronger than that. So a small probably has somewhere
113:41 that. So a small probably has somewhere between 200 and 250. Medium is going to
113:44 between 200 and 250. Medium is going to be 350 to 500. I once said that you know
113:48 be 350 to 500. I once said that you know a venty coffee what I call a large um
113:52 a venty coffee what I call a large um but just to orient people um can have
113:55 but just to orient people um can have 800 to 1,000 milligrams of caffeine.
113:57 800 to 1,000 milligrams of caffeine. People like no way. And then I got some
113:59 People like no way. And then I got some brush back on that. Look people have
114:01 brush back on that. Look people have tested this out. Different places are
114:04 tested this out. Different places are brewing them differently. So, what most
114:06 brewing them differently. So, what most people are consuming a lot more caffeine
114:08 people are consuming a lot more caffeine than than they realize, which is why
114:09 than than they realize, which is why they have a headache when they don't
114:11 they have a headache when they don't drink it. Um, I like caffeine, but
114:13 drink it. Um, I like caffeine, but mostly in the form of of yerba mate,
114:15 mostly in the form of of yerba mate, either this or or um uh just brewed
114:18 either this or or um uh just brewed leaves and it's a very different um
114:21 leaves and it's a very different um caffeine
114:23 caffeine high. It it rises more slowly. It kind
114:25 high. It it rises more slowly. It kind of arcs down. You if I drink a coffee um
114:28 of arcs down. You if I drink a coffee um as opposed to espresso or yerba mate,
114:30 as opposed to espresso or yerba mate, it's a real punch. So, I'm not drinking
114:33 it's a real punch. So, I'm not drinking 800 milligrams of co caffeine from
114:35 800 milligrams of co caffeine from coffee. So, very different. I mean, my
114:37 coffee. So, very different. I mean, my day looks quite different than yours,
114:38 day looks quite different than yours, but um I definitely agree that once we
114:43 but um I definitely agree that once we figure out our optimal circadian
114:46 figure out our optimal circadian schedule, which for you sounds like
114:47 schedule, which for you sounds like you're a true probably genetically from
114:50 you're a true probably genetically from what we understand, early bird, you like
114:51 what we understand, early bird, you like to go to bed somewhere between 8 and
114:53 to go to bed somewhere between 8 and 9:00 p.m., wake up somewhere between 3
114:55 9:00 p.m., wake up somewhere between 3 and 4:00 a.m. Most people who try and
114:57 and 4:00 a.m. Most people who try and get on that schedule really struggle um
115:00 get on that schedule really struggle um and they start to revert to toward the
115:01 and they start to revert to toward the more typical schedule or the night owl
115:03 more typical schedule or the night owl schedule. But most people, like me, go
115:05 schedule. But most people, like me, go to bed somewhere between 10 and 11:30 at
115:08 to bed somewhere between 10 and 11:30 at night. I can get to bed by 9:30, but
115:10 night. I can get to bed by 9:30, but it's tough. Um, typically go 10:30 in
115:13 it's tough. Um, typically go 10:30 in bed. 11 I'm out. And then if I do that,
115:16 bed. 11 I'm out. And then if I do that, I need maybe six and a half hours of
115:17 I need maybe six and a half hours of sleep and I'm fine. Yeah. And then the
115:19 sleep and I'm fine. Yeah. And then the night owls definitely exist. There are
115:21 night owls definitely exist. There are people for whom their genetic
115:22 people for whom their genetic polymorphisms in in their genome make
115:25 polymorphisms in in their genome make them want to go to bed at 1, two, 3 a.m.
115:27 them want to go to bed at 1, two, 3 a.m. and sleep until, you know, 8, nine, 10,
115:30 and sleep until, you know, 8, nine, 10, even 11 am. And they do best. Uh but I
115:33 even 11 am. And they do best. Uh but I agree that once you figure out your
115:35 agree that once you figure out your optimal circadian schedule um early bird
115:39 optimal circadian schedule um early bird typical or night owl that there are
115:42 typical or night owl that there are couple of three to fourhour pockets
115:45 couple of three to fourhour pockets during the day when our attention and
115:47 during the day when our attention and wakefulness is just at its greatest and
115:49 wakefulness is just at its greatest and you have to decide what you're going to
115:51 you have to decide what you're going to devote that to. And from what we
115:53 devote that to. And from what we understand that morning bout which for
115:56 understand that morning bout which for you falls very early is when the
115:58 you falls very early is when the catakolamines dopamine norepinephrine
116:00 catakolamines dopamine norepinephrine and epinephrine are really being
116:01 and epinephrine are really being released at their greatest amount. It's
116:03 released at their greatest amount. It's almost like the bank account to invest.
116:05 almost like the bank account to invest. You okay you can you can invest now.
116:07 You okay you can you can invest now. You're going to spend you're going to
116:08 You're going to spend you're going to invest. And I think many people spend it
116:11 invest. And I think many people spend it out. Um and exercise is great. I notic
116:15 out. Um and exercise is great. I notic that card cardio, so to speak, um, gives
116:19 that card cardio, so to speak, um, gives me a lot of energy and focus in the
116:21 me a lot of energy and focus in the hours that follow, whereas resistance
116:24 hours that follow, whereas resistance training, which arguably I like to train
116:26 training, which arguably I like to train hard and I like training heavy. Yeah.
116:28 hard and I like training heavy. Yeah. Afterwards, if I shower up and eat
116:31 Afterwards, if I shower up and eat something, I'm my brain is fatigued in a
116:33 something, I'm my brain is fatigued in a way that I'm like, damn, I I invested it
116:36 way that I'm like, damn, I I invested it in exercise. I I can't invest in
116:38 in exercise. I I can't invest in everything. So, I think finding those
116:41 everything. So, I think finding those times when we are optimal is great. and
116:43 times when we are optimal is great. and not just spending it out on meaningless
116:46 not just spending it out on meaningless stuff. Yeah. And that's what's happened
116:47 stuff. Yeah. And that's what's happened to so many of these I hear from a lot of
116:49 to so many of these I hear from a lot of young guys on this in particular. Um
116:51 young guys on this in particular. Um guys who are like hitting their early
116:54 guys who are like hitting their early mid late 20s and they're like my life is
116:57 mid late 20s and they're like my life is like not heading in a particular
116:58 like not heading in a particular direction. the so-called failure to
117:00 direction. the so-called failure to launch kids and it's scary and then you
117:02 launch kids and it's scary and then you say well what are you spending your time
117:04 say well what are you spending your time on like well I get some exercise but
117:06 on like well I get some exercise but then a lot of YouTube a lot of video
117:08 then a lot of YouTube a lot of video games a lot of spending out and I
117:10 games a lot of spending out and I realize that there are some people who
117:11 realize that there are some people who can make a career out of video games but
117:14 can make a career out of video games but most can't right so I I think um there
117:18 most can't right so I I think um there are a lot of casualties of of that kind
117:20 are a lot of casualties of of that kind of spending out of that those key hours
117:22 of spending out of that those key hours yeah I think so too and I do agree with
117:24 yeah I think so too and I do agree with you that it's all about finding
117:26 you that it's all about finding whatever's going to work for you got to
117:28 whatever's going to work for you got to find that sort magic, those magic hours,
117:30 find that sort magic, those magic hours, you know, as I would call them in a
117:31 you know, as I would call them in a non-scientific way. Um, the example I
117:34 non-scientific way. Um, the example I always like to give is Hunter S.
117:36 always like to give is Hunter S. Thompson, where he would sleep until
117:39 Thompson, where he would sleep until noon and then he would start writing at
117:42 noon and then he would start writing at like 11 p.m. maybe, and he would go till
117:45 like 11 p.m. maybe, and he would go till 4 in the morning. And of course, he's
117:46 4 in the morning. And of course, he's fueled by all this nonsense on, you
117:48 fueled by all this nonsense on, you know, going into that. But that was like
117:50 know, going into that. But that was like his that was sort of his magic hours
117:52 his that was sort of his magic hours where he got the best work done. And
117:53 where he got the best work done. And it's like you got to find you got to
117:54 it's like you got to find you got to find what yours are. Yeah. It's
117:57 find what yours are. Yeah. It's interesting. uh the reliance these days
117:58 interesting. uh the reliance these days on energy drinks and caffeine and
118:01 on energy drinks and caffeine and supplements some of which we've talked
118:02 supplements some of which we've talked about on this podcast like alpha GPC
118:04 about on this podcast like alpha GPC like they'll have a meaningful um effect
118:06 like they'll have a meaningful um effect on your levels of alertness and focus. I
118:09 on your levels of alertness and focus. I think it's a mistake to use those to
118:11 think it's a mistake to use those to just kind of exist like sipping an
118:13 just kind of exist like sipping an energy drink just to get through your
118:15 energy drink just to get through your day. I do think there's a place for the
118:16 day. I do think there's a place for the occasional use of things like alpha GPC
118:19 occasional use of things like alpha GPC or caffeine. Certainly some people
118:21 or caffeine. Certainly some people nowadays are using non-smoke non-vaped
118:23 nowadays are using non-smoke non-vaped nicotine. Uh the great Joe Strummer said
118:26 nicotine. Uh the great Joe Strummer said that one of the worst things that ever
118:27 that one of the worst things that ever happened to creativity is people stop
118:29 happened to creativity is people stop smoking. I'm not encouraging people to
118:30 smoking. I'm not encouraging people to start smoking. He died young sadly uh
118:34 start smoking. He died young sadly uh 50. Um but uh you know I think the idea
118:38 50. Um but uh you know I think the idea there was that nicotine is cognitively
118:41 there was that nicotine is cognitively enhancing. You don't want to take it in
118:43 enhancing. You don't want to take it in in a way that kills you. But I think if
118:45 in a way that kills you. But I think if you're going to explore chemistry for um
118:49 you're going to explore chemistry for um changing your your brain state, which is
118:51 changing your your brain state, which is what it's all about, um
118:54 what it's all about, um that you want to be really careful about
118:56 that you want to be really careful about what you do with that enhanced brain
118:57 what you do with that enhanced brain state. Yeah. Like just drinking a bunch
118:59 state. Yeah. Like just drinking a bunch of energy drinks to scroll the internet
119:02 of energy drinks to scroll the internet is truly a waste of a life. Yeah.
119:04 is truly a waste of a life. Yeah. Getting all ramped up to do nothing
119:06 Getting all ramped up to do nothing basically, right? Yeah. Get all ramped
119:08 basically, right? Yeah. Get all ramped up to do something. That's a good rule
119:10 up to do something. That's a good rule to follow when you're out on these
119:13 to follow when you're out on these adventures. Um, do you have all your
119:17 adventures. Um, do you have all your comforts from home of like to bed at a
119:20 comforts from home of like to bed at a certain at your early hour, up at an
119:22 certain at your early hour, up at an early hour? Um, are you still writing
119:24 early hour? Um, are you still writing before you head out? I guess some days
119:26 before you head out? I guess some days you can't. Do you do you bring coffee? I
119:28 you can't. Do you do you bring coffee? I mean, are there certain things that you
119:29 mean, are there certain things that you bring with you so that you're not just
119:30 bring with you so that you're not just in a complete stoic mode of you're not
119:33 in a complete stoic mode of you're not like naked in the woods? I think that's
119:34 like naked in the woods? I think that's a different reality TV show, right?
119:36 a different reality TV show, right? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. We don't watch that
119:38 Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. We don't watch that one. Um,
119:40 one. Um, I will bring So, I'll give you It kind
119:42 I will bring So, I'll give you It kind of depends on the trip. Um, a lot of
119:45 of depends on the trip. Um, a lot of them if it's uh international, things
119:47 them if it's uh international, things get a little skewed with time changes
119:51 get a little skewed with time changes and things like that. Um, but if it's
119:54 and things like that. Um, but if it's sort of a outdoor adventure, I'm usually
119:57 sort of a outdoor adventure, I'm usually up pretty early with the sun. I also
120:00 up pretty early with the sun. I also notice that I sleep a lot better and
120:02 notice that I sleep a lot better and longer when I'm out in the wilderness.
120:04 longer when I'm out in the wilderness. Just way better. Um, so I usually get up
120:07 Just way better. Um, so I usually get up and um I usually bring coffee if it's an
120:10 and um I usually bring coffee if it's an outdoor thing. Just like instant crap
120:12 outdoor thing. Just like instant crap coffee, but it tastes great out there
120:14 coffee, but it tastes great out there because that's what you got. Um, I often
120:17 because that's what you got. Um, I often don't bring a stove when I do outdoor uh
120:20 don't bring a stove when I do outdoor uh adventure stuff simply because one, it's
120:23 adventure stuff simply because one, it's more weight to carry. Uh, two, I've
120:27 more weight to carry. Uh, two, I've heard horror stories of people who are
120:29 heard horror stories of people who are boiling water on these awkward stoves
120:31 boiling water on these awkward stoves and then, oh, they knocked it into their
120:33 and then, oh, they knocked it into their lap and now we have like a serious
120:34 lap and now we have like a serious emergency in the middle of freaking
120:36 emergency in the middle of freaking nowhere. Um, so I don't bring a stove
120:38 nowhere. Um, so I don't bring a stove and so I'll just mix the instant coffee
120:41 and so I'll just mix the instant coffee with whatever temperature. The water
120:43 with whatever temperature. The water temperature is like the outdoor
120:44 temperature is like the outdoor temperature, right? So, if it's 33
120:46 temperature, right? So, if it's 33 degrees outside, the water's 33 degrees,
120:49 degrees outside, the water's 33 degrees, I'll drink that. And then usually just
120:51 I'll drink that. And then usually just You don't bring a stove on these long
120:53 You don't bring a stove on these long adventures? No. Um, wow. Yeah. Then I'll
120:56 adventures? No. Um, wow. Yeah. Then I'll get moving on this last hike. A lot of
121:00 get moving on this last hike. A lot of lot of bars for calories. You're
121:02 lot of bars for calories. You're basically just looking for foods that um
121:04 basically just looking for foods that um so sort of the rules to kind of give
121:06 so sort of the rules to kind of give people some uh advice here. And I can
121:08 people some uh advice here. And I can put that in the link we talked about.
121:10 put that in the link we talked about. Um, one, it's got to be good on my
121:12 Um, one, it's got to be good on my stomach. That's rule number one because
121:14 stomach. That's rule number one because if you eat something that's going to
121:16 if you eat something that's going to upset your stomach and you got to hike
121:17 upset your stomach and you got to hike 25 miles, you're going to have a really,
121:19 25 miles, you're going to have a really, really bad day, right? So figuring that
121:21 really bad day, right? So figuring that out. um that tends to be foods that
121:24 out. um that tends to be foods that aren't super super fibery and um are are
121:29 aren't super super fibery and um are are a little more processed rather than
121:31 a little more processed rather than less. So your stomach's not doing the
121:32 less. So your stomach's not doing the processing. Um two, it obviously has to
121:35 processing. Um two, it obviously has to be calorie dense because if you take
121:38 be calorie dense because if you take let's say to give a kind of extreme
121:40 let's say to give a kind of extreme example, 2 lbs in peanut butter, that
121:42 example, 2 lbs in peanut butter, that has way more calories than two pounds in
121:45 has way more calories than two pounds in apples and it also takes up uh less room
121:48 apples and it also takes up uh less room in your pack, right? So stuff tends to
121:50 in your pack, right? So stuff tends to be calorie dense. like nuts, bars,
121:52 be calorie dense. like nuts, bars, things like that. Um, at night I'll have
121:55 things like that. Um, at night I'll have like tortillas and salami and some dried
121:57 like tortillas and salami and some dried fruit, things like that. Um, number
121:58 fruit, things like that. Um, number three is that it has to taste good
122:01 three is that it has to taste good because if you don't like how it tastes,
122:02 because if you don't like how it tastes, you're probably not going to eat it. And
122:04 you're probably not going to eat it. And if you don't eat it, it's not going to
122:05 if you don't eat it, it's not going to help you, right? You're just carrying
122:07 help you, right? You're just carrying it. And then four,
122:10 it. And then four, I kind of look at like nutritional
122:11 I kind of look at like nutritional composition. I'll go, okay, am I getting
122:13 composition. I'll go, okay, am I getting enough protein? Now, granted, when I'm
122:15 enough protein? Now, granted, when I'm out in a scenario like that, you're
122:17 out in a scenario like that, you're eating so much food that you basically
122:19 eating so much food that you basically get enough protein on accident. Like,
122:21 get enough protein on accident. Like, it's hard to not get enough protein when
122:22 it's hard to not get enough protein when you're eating 4,000 calories a day. But
122:24 you're eating 4,000 calories a day. But those are sort of the rules I follow
122:25 those are sort of the rules I follow nutritionally when I'm out on these
122:27 nutritionally when I'm out on these journeys. Interesting. Yeah. One big win
122:31 journeys. Interesting. Yeah. One big win that I found um are these bars from, and
122:34 that I found um are these bars from, and I have no affiliation with these guys.
122:36 I have no affiliation with these guys. Um it's I think it's called it's made by
122:38 Um it's I think it's called it's made by Met RX and it's called the Big 100 Bar.
122:42 Met RX and it's called the Big 100 Bar. So, this is like a bar designed for
122:43 So, this is like a bar designed for straight up meat heads, okay? Um,
122:47 straight up meat heads, okay? Um, but it's got like 400 something calories
122:48 but it's got like 400 something calories in. It's got 30 grams of protein. And I
122:51 in. It's got 30 grams of protein. And I stumbled upon these in these little in
122:52 stumbled upon these in these little in this little gas station in this the town
122:55 this little gas station in this the town is one gas station in a hotel. And they
122:57 is one gas station in a hotel. And they have all these different flavors. They
122:59 have all these different flavors. They taste like candy bars. And I'm like,
123:01 taste like candy bars. And I'm like, this is a thing that I am probably never
123:03 this is a thing that I am probably never going to eat in normal life, but this is
123:06 going to eat in normal life, but this is magic out on the trail cuz it's just a
123:08 magic out on the trail cuz it's just a hunk of calories with protein and they
123:10 hunk of calories with protein and they like inject it with all sorts of vitamin
123:12 like inject it with all sorts of vitamin and minerals. Just like way over
123:13 and minerals. Just like way over fortified like this is trail food right
123:16 fortified like this is trail food right here. As you pointed out, very different
123:18 here. As you pointed out, very different than what you recommend people eat back
123:19 than what you recommend people eat back home. Totally. People should probably
123:21 home. Totally. People should probably eat exact opposite way back home. Exact
123:24 eat exact opposite way back home. Exact fruits, vegetables, clean meats, eggs,
123:26 fruits, vegetables, clean meats, eggs, fish, you know, this kind of thing.
123:29 fish, you know, this kind of thing. Yeah. Generally, like my people will ask
123:32 Yeah. Generally, like my people will ask me about nutrition advice and mine is
123:34 me about nutrition advice and mine is basically just like try and eat more
123:35 basically just like try and eat more foods that uh are ingredients rather
123:38 foods that uh are ingredients rather than have ingredients. If you can just
123:39 than have ingredients. If you can just follow that, you're probably going to be
123:41 follow that, you're probably going to be all right in real life. In real life.
123:42 all right in real life. In real life. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I definitely follow
123:44 Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I definitely follow it. Not on the trail. On the trail, just
123:46 it. Not on the trail. On the trail, just just realize you're going to be uh
123:49 just realize you're going to be uh eating a lot of crap for 30 days and
123:51 eating a lot of crap for 30 days and then when you get home or 40 days,
123:53 then when you get home or 40 days, whatever it might be, when you get home,
123:55 whatever it might be, when you get home, maybe lean into salads. Well, it's
123:58 maybe lean into salads. Well, it's survival out there. You said you're
124:00 survival out there. You said you're losing weight even though you're
124:01 losing weight even though you're consuming a ton of calories when you're
124:02 consuming a ton of calories when you're out on these adventures. Yeah. So, for
124:04 out on these adventures. Yeah. So, for the last one, for example, that was 40
124:05 the last one, for example, that was 40 days. Um,
124:09 days. Um, we probably averaged 20 to 25 miles a
124:13 we probably averaged 20 to 25 miles a day. Um, some days are a little more
124:15 day. Um, some days are a little more slowgoing because you might have to
124:16 slowgoing because you might have to navigate a canyon. There's a lot of ups,
124:18 navigate a canyon. There's a lot of ups, a lot of downs. Um, but we also had
124:20 a lot of downs. Um, but we also had sections on the Arizona Trail, which is
124:22 sections on the Arizona Trail, which is like this really well-maintained trail.
124:25 like this really well-maintained trail. Um, so we had like a 40 mile day that
124:27 Um, so we had like a 40 mile day that day. Um, and you have everything in your
124:28 day. Um, and you have everything in your pack, so you're carrying the pack. And I
124:31 pack, so you're carrying the pack. And I was trying to eat between 4,000 and
124:33 was trying to eat between 4,000 and 5,000 calories a day. And I still lost
124:36 5,000 calories a day. And I still lost about 13 pounds. Wow. Yeah. I talked to
124:39 about 13 pounds. Wow. Yeah. I talked to Herman Poner at Duke and he did some
124:42 Herman Poner at Duke and he did some back of the hand math. He was like,
124:44 back of the hand math. He was like, "Okay, I'm going to figure this out."
124:45 "Okay, I'm going to figure this out." He's like, "Caveat. I'm just doing this
124:46 He's like, "Caveat. I'm just doing this in my head right now." He's like, "Okay,
124:48 in my head right now." He's like, "Okay, you How much did you weigh? How much did
124:50 you How much did you weigh? How much did you Okay. He thought I was probably
124:52 you Okay. He thought I was probably burning about 6,300 calories a day. Wow.
124:55 burning about 6,300 calories a day. Wow. Yeah, it's a lot of work. The I think
124:58 Yeah, it's a lot of work. The I think some people will hear 40 days and go
125:00 some people will hear 40 days and go like, "Okay, I don't have time for this.
125:01 like, "Okay, I don't have time for this. I can't get away from this." But you
125:02 I can't get away from this." But you mentioned something that I think is
125:04 mentioned something that I think is worth pointing out and it it offers an
125:06 worth pointing out and it it offers an opportunity for um people to access some
125:08 opportunity for um people to access some of the incredible things that um these
125:10 of the incredible things that um these outdoor adventures provide. And that's
125:12 outdoor adventures provide. And that's the reset to sleep and sleeping outside.
125:15 the reset to sleep and sleeping outside. There's a uh a guy uh researcher at uh
125:19 There's a uh a guy uh researcher at uh University of Colorado Boulder by the
125:20 University of Colorado Boulder by the name of Kenneth Wright who's done these
125:22 name of Kenneth Wright who's done these really beautiful experiments where he
125:24 really beautiful experiments where he takes students camping. Mhm. Where they
125:26 takes students camping. Mhm. Where they go to sleep shortly after sunset. I
125:29 go to sleep shortly after sunset. I think they have a nice campfire and
125:30 think they have a nice campfire and enjoy, you know, samores and
125:31 enjoy, you know, samores and socializing. And then they get into
125:33 socializing. And then they get into their tents and maybe read a bit and
125:35 their tents and maybe read a bit and they go to sleep and then they wake up
125:36 they go to sleep and then they wake up somewhere circa sunrise. Not exactly
125:39 somewhere circa sunrise. Not exactly there, but but no one's using an alarm.
125:40 there, but but no one's using an alarm. No one's being told when to wake up and
125:42 No one's being told when to wake up and they get up and they do their breakfast.
125:43 they get up and they do their breakfast. So, they're just camping in the Colorado
125:45 So, they're just camping in the Colorado mountains for a couple of days. What he
125:47 mountains for a couple of days. What he found was that just two nights and and
125:50 found was that just two nights and and the days around those nights of camping
125:52 the days around those nights of camping in the Colorado mountains um allowed
125:55 in the Colorado mountains um allowed them to reset their circadian rhythms
125:57 them to reset their circadian rhythms for melatonin which elevates at night
126:00 for melatonin which elevates at night kickstart the sleep process as many
126:01 kickstart the sleep process as many people know and for cortisol which is
126:04 people know and for cortisol which is why we wake up in the morning the
126:05 why we wake up in the morning the so-called cortisol awakening response
126:07 so-called cortisol awakening response you know precedes uh the time we wake up
126:09 you know precedes uh the time we wake up which for you comes at a god awful hour
126:10 which for you comes at a god awful hour from but um and was able to reset that
126:13 from but um and was able to reset that those cortisol melatonin rhythms which
126:15 those cortisol melatonin rhythms which really bookend end uh our days and are
126:18 really bookend end uh our days and are and and really establish regularity of
126:20 and and really establish regularity of circadian rhythm. So while there are a
126:22 circadian rhythm. So while there are a lot of things one can do like cold
126:24 lot of things one can do like cold showers and exercise and forced early
126:26 showers and exercise and forced early hours and dimming the lights etc. when
126:28 hours and dimming the lights etc. when getting out into nature and camping for
126:30 getting out into nature and camping for a couple of nights really getting away
126:32 a couple of nights really getting away from cell phone contact and getting more
126:35 from cell phone contact and getting more oriented to the sunrise and sunset as
126:38 oriented to the sunrise and sunset as the cues for circadian rhythm um has a
126:40 the cues for circadian rhythm um has a longlasting effect on uh circadian
126:43 longlasting effect on uh circadian rhythms of these hormones and
126:44 rhythms of these hormones and wakefulness. So, it's, you know, it's
126:46 wakefulness. So, it's, you know, it's getting back to the fundamentals. I just
126:47 getting back to the fundamentals. I just offer that because some people might
126:48 offer that because some people might hear like 40 days and like I don't
126:51 hear like 40 days and like I don't want to like just eat peanut butter and
126:53 want to like just eat peanut butter and when I hear that you don't bring a
126:54 when I hear that you don't bring a stove, like now I'm looking at you
126:56 stove, like now I'm looking at you different like this guy's psychotic and
126:58 different like this guy's psychotic and in the in the in the good sense of the
127:00 in the in the in the good sense of the word, right? Um, it's awesome. No, no,
127:02 word, right? Um, it's awesome. No, no, it's it's when I say psychotic in the
127:04 it's it's when I say psychotic in the form of a good kind. Yeah. It's the good
127:06 form of a good kind. Yeah. It's the good kind. Um, but I think most people think,
127:09 kind. Um, but I think most people think, okay, I could probably get away for two,
127:11 okay, I could probably get away for two, three nights. Yeah. and and camp or talk
127:14 three nights. Yeah. and and camp or talk to someone who knows how to backpack and
127:16 to someone who knows how to backpack and get a proper kit together and go
127:18 get a proper kit together and go backpacking. Yeah. And and the level of
127:20 backpacking. Yeah. And and the level of adventure and and life reset and
127:22 adventure and and life reset and meaningful experiences that one brings
127:24 meaningful experiences that one brings back from that and reset of circadian
127:26 back from that and reset of circadian rhythm is is super significant. Totally.
127:29 rhythm is is super significant. Totally. There's and it's amazing. I mean, when
127:32 There's and it's amazing. I mean, when you look at how much of the US is
127:35 you look at how much of the US is actually like developed,
127:37 actually like developed, it's some crazy number like only three
127:40 it's some crazy number like only three 4% is occupied by people and the rest is
127:43 4% is occupied by people and the rest is just like farmland and open land. Like
127:46 just like farmland and open land. Like we have so much amazing, unbelievable
127:49 we have so much amazing, unbelievable public lands in the United States. And
127:51 public lands in the United States. And by the way, as I experienced, the best
127:54 by the way, as I experienced, the best stuff isn't necessarily in national
127:56 stuff isn't necessarily in national parks. The best stuff is often in these
127:58 parks. The best stuff is often in these sort of middle of nowhere places where
128:00 sort of middle of nowhere places where it would just be a giant logistical
128:01 it would just be a giant logistical nightmare to try and put a national park
128:03 nightmare to try and put a national park there and get all these people into it.
128:04 there and get all these people into it. Like you can find some just incredible
128:06 Like you can find some just incredible places in the US. And even I think three
128:10 places in the US. And even I think three nights outdoors, two, one night, two
128:12 nights outdoors, two, one night, two nights, whatever, any amount of time
128:14 nights, whatever, any amount of time outdoors, especially if it's a little
128:17 outdoors, especially if it's a little more rugged, a little more off the grid.
128:19 more rugged, a little more off the grid. And hell, you can even car camp. Like
128:21 And hell, you can even car camp. Like you don't have to like walk 20 miles out
128:23 you don't have to like walk 20 miles out into the middle of nowhere. You can car
128:24 into the middle of nowhere. You can car camp. I think that has just so many
128:26 camp. I think that has just so many benefits. There's um this guy at
128:29 benefits. There's um this guy at University of Utah named uh David Straer
128:33 University of Utah named uh David Straer and he did uh he's done this work on
128:35 and he did uh he's done this work on what he calls a three-day effect and
128:36 what he calls a three-day effect and he's basically found that after uh three
128:38 he's basically found that after uh three days in nature like some really
128:40 days in nature like some really beneficial things happen to people and
128:41 beneficial things happen to people and people come back reporting that they
128:43 people come back reporting that they just feel so much calmer, more
128:46 just feel so much calmer, more collected, they're just like more reset,
128:48 collected, they're just like more reset, more aligned in their life. And I think
128:51 more aligned in their life. And I think that's absolutely a thing. The reason he
128:53 that's absolutely a thing. The reason he started studying it is because a guy who
128:57 started studying it is because a guy who owns this sort of famous rare book shop
128:59 owns this sort of famous rare book shop in Salt Lake City, the guy's name is Ken
129:02 in Salt Lake City, the guy's name is Ken Sanders, he was calling this thing that
129:04 Sanders, he was calling this thing that would happen to him the three-day
129:06 would happen to him the three-day effect. He goes, "Yeah, we just call it
129:07 effect. He goes, "Yeah, we just call it the three-day effect among my friends."
129:09 the three-day effect among my friends." And he was like a friend of Edward Abby,
129:10 And he was like a friend of Edward Abby, the environmental writer. He's like,
129:12 the environmental writer. He's like, "Yeah, we call it the three-day effect.
129:13 "Yeah, we call it the three-day effect. Like after three days in the wild, you
129:14 Like after three days in the wild, you like just totally reset. You're a better
129:16 like just totally reset. You're a better human. You think better. You're nicer.
129:18 human. You think better. You're nicer. You're more empathetic. You're just a
129:19 You're more empathetic. You're just a great person." And Strayer was kind of
129:21 great person." And Strayer was kind of like, wait, I feel like that's happened
129:23 like, wait, I feel like that's happened to me, but I've just never heard anyone
129:25 to me, but I've just never heard anyone sort of put a term on it. And so he
129:27 sort of put a term on it. And so he started kind of doing some research into
129:28 started kind of doing some research into it. And it's actually pretty interesting
129:30 it. And it's actually pretty interesting stuff. Super interesting. I think uh my
129:33 stuff. Super interesting. I think uh my mind as the neurobiologist goes to these
129:35 mind as the neurobiologist goes to these attractor states. I think that it takes
129:36 attractor states. I think that it takes some time for us to drop into these
129:38 some time for us to drop into these different ways of being and ways of
129:40 different ways of being and ways of being sounds kind of mystical,
129:42 being sounds kind of mystical, psychological, but it's it's also
129:44 psychological, but it's it's also neural, right? is that our our nervous
129:46 neural, right? is that our our nervous system shapes itself around the
129:48 system shapes itself around the interactions and vice versa. And I think
129:52 interactions and vice versa. And I think I find uh your work so interesting
129:55 I find uh your work so interesting because you're a sit in a chair for four
129:57 because you're a sit in a chair for four hours cognitive thinker toil with words
130:01 hours cognitive thinker toil with words and ideas guy, but you like these long
130:04 and ideas guy, but you like these long extended adventures which are really um
130:07 extended adventures which are really um adventures of the body and mind. Uh I
130:11 adventures of the body and mind. Uh I I've been wrestling with this idea as
130:12 I've been wrestling with this idea as you can tell today. I wanted to just
130:14 you can tell today. I wanted to just present your some ideas to you to get
130:15 present your some ideas to you to get your your thoughts on them. Um, and one
130:19 your your thoughts on them. Um, and one of the ideas and I've talked to a couple
130:20 of the ideas and I've talked to a couple of MDs that work specifically on
130:22 of MDs that work specifically on dementia uh about this and and the idea
130:26 dementia uh about this and and the idea hasn't been killed yet which is a sign
130:28 hasn't been killed yet which is a sign that they might have legs and the idea
130:29 that they might have legs and the idea is that um comes from this originates
130:33 is that um comes from this originates with this sea squirt. Do you know the
130:35 with this sea squirt. Do you know the story about the sea squirt? No. So the
130:36 story about the sea squirt? No. So the sea squirt are uh I I've been learning
130:38 sea squirt are uh I I've been learning about them. They're in this um the film
130:41 about them. They're in this um the film of a tunicata. They're tunicquates,
130:43 of a tunicata. They're tunicquates, which means nothing. You when anytime
130:44 which means nothing. You when anytime somebody throws something like that or a
130:46 somebody throws something like that or a Latin name, uh, they're really just
130:47 Latin name, uh, they're really just trying to impress you. But what's
130:48 trying to impress you. But what's interesting about tunicquets is that
130:51 interesting about tunicquets is that they live two lives. They have a nervous
130:53 they live two lives. They have a nervous system. They live two lives. They they
130:55 system. They live two lives. They they are mobile. They swim for part of their
130:57 are mobile. They swim for part of their life, and then they at some point
130:59 life, and then they at some point descend onto a a rock, typically, fix
131:02 descend onto a a rock, typically, fix themselves to the rock, and live the
131:03 themselves to the rock, and live the rest of their life fixed to that rock.
131:06 rest of their life fixed to that rock. And when they land there, they
131:08 And when they land there, they eventually learn how to harvest
131:10 eventually learn how to harvest nutrients from from the ocean around
131:12 nutrients from from the ocean around them, but they eat their own nervous
131:14 them, but they eat their own nervous system. They eat their own brain, and
131:16 system. They eat their own brain, and they specifically eat they don't really
131:18 they specifically eat they don't really have a brain, but they eat the
131:19 have a brain, but they eat the components of their nervous system that
131:20 components of their nervous system that aren't required for moving around
131:21 aren't required for moving around anymore. Interesting. So, one idea,
131:25 anymore. Interesting. So, one idea, sorry to like noodle with this, and I
131:27 sorry to like noodle with this, and I was thinking, you know, we we hear so
131:28 was thinking, you know, we we hear so much now about the relationship between
131:30 much now about the relationship between exercise and longevity. And, you know, I
131:33 exercise and longevity. And, you know, I try and get my zone 2 cardio. I
131:35 try and get my zone 2 cardio. I definitely ruck. We're going to talk
131:36 definitely ruck. We're going to talk about rucking. I do my resistance
131:37 about rucking. I do my resistance training. I'm very interested in some of
131:39 training. I'm very interested in some of these functional patterns folks online.
131:41 these functional patterns folks online. They're very um combative people, but
131:42 They're very um combative people, but they they've got some really interesting
131:44 they they've got some really interesting points about the need to do more um real
131:47 points about the need to do more um real world throwing, sprinting type
131:49 world throwing, sprinting type activities. But here's an idea. If we
131:51 activities. But here's an idea. If we step back from the human species and we
131:53 step back from the human species and we go, okay, what what do humans need? We
131:56 go, okay, what what do humans need? We need to reproduce, take care of our
131:57 need to reproduce, take care of our young, propagate, all the stuff we
131:58 young, propagate, all the stuff we talked about before. But throughout
132:01 talked about before. But throughout human evolution, humans have gotten to a
132:02 human evolution, humans have gotten to a point where in everyone's life where at
132:05 point where in everyone's life where at some point the young are old enough and
132:07 some point the young are old enough and and educated enough about what's
132:08 and educated enough about what's required to be a human that they don't
132:11 required to be a human that they don't have to throw, run, or do any of these
132:14 have to throw, run, or do any of these things. And perhaps, and someone should
132:16 things. And perhaps, and someone should look at this, I think perhaps the areas
132:19 look at this, I think perhaps the areas of the brain that atrophy first, the
132:21 of the brain that atrophy first, the neural pathways that atrophy first in
132:23 neural pathways that atrophy first in everybody, we're not talking about
132:24 everybody, we're not talking about Alzheimer's necessarily, are the areas
132:26 Alzheimer's necessarily, are the areas involved with jumping, landing,
132:28 involved with jumping, landing, throwing, navigating, uh, uneven
132:31 throwing, navigating, uh, uneven surfaces, um, lack of familiarity, you
132:35 surfaces, um, lack of familiarity, you know, as and it could be that the
132:39 know, as and it could be that the deterioration of those pathways sets in
132:41 deterioration of those pathways sets in motion a cascade of of things that cause
132:44 motion a cascade of of things that cause the loss of neurons in other areas and
132:45 the loss of neurons in other areas and then like so many things you know it
132:47 then like so many things you know it tends to then we get like everyone gets
132:49 tends to then we get like everyone gets demented with age. Yeah. No one is
132:51 demented with age. Yeah. No one is sharper at 90 than they were at 70. No
132:54 sharper at 90 than they were at 70. No one unless you know maybe they lost a
132:56 one unless you know maybe they lost a lot of weight and took a bunch of you
132:58 lot of weight and took a bunch of you know acetyloline promoting drugs or
133:00 know acetyloline promoting drugs or something but that's very rare. So the
133:02 something but that's very rare. So the idea here is that um maybe we're a lot
133:04 idea here is that um maybe we're a lot like the sea squirt.
133:06 like the sea squirt. um we're just starting earlier nowadays
133:09 um we're just starting earlier nowadays and that's interesting and that perhaps
133:11 and that's interesting and that perhaps some of the things that you're doing um
133:14 some of the things that you're doing um in these uh msogi adventures are um
133:19 in these uh msogi adventures are um forcing you to do things that are
133:22 forcing you to do things that are maintaining brain circuitry that allow
133:24 maintaining brain circuitry that allow you to sit in that office and and and
133:25 you to sit in that office and and and attack it with more vigor with each
133:27 attack it with more vigor with each year. I I I I like this idea. Um first
133:32 year. I I I I like this idea. Um first of all, it's not testable. That that
133:33 of all, it's not testable. That that sucks. We it would it's going to be hard
133:34 sucks. We it would it's going to be hard to do. You could do jumping and
133:35 to do. You could do jumping and plyometrics and landing and look at
133:37 plyometrics and landing and look at brain scans. You could do that, but it's
133:38 brain scans. You could do that, but it's going to be hard to do in the real
133:39 going to be hard to do in the real world. But I like this idea because
133:41 world. But I like this idea because everything that you've told us is that
133:44 everything that you've told us is that we need to do the thing that we could
133:46 we need to do the thing that we could easily offload
133:48 easily offload onto devices or other people. But if we
133:52 onto devices or other people. But if we don't do that, we actually have
133:56 don't do that, we actually have more uh pleasure in these moments of
133:59 more uh pleasure in these moments of watching television with a spouse or
134:02 watching television with a spouse or perhaps even more intellectual vigor
134:04 perhaps even more intellectual vigor because how old are you? I'm 38. 38. Um
134:09 because how old are you? I'm 38. 38. Um so if you were to now I' I'm kind of
134:10 so if you were to now I' I'm kind of leading the I'm seeding the question.
134:14 leading the I'm seeding the question. Um, but if you were to kind of plot in
134:15 Um, but if you were to kind of plot in your mind like your your cognitive vigor
134:18 your mind like your your cognitive vigor across these years before, during, and
134:21 across these years before, during, and and now you're continuing to do these
134:23 and now you're continuing to do these massogis, would you say your cognitive
134:25 massogis, would you say your cognitive vigor is is declining or is increasing
134:27 vigor is is declining or is increasing or is staying flat? Definitely
134:29 or is staying flat? Definitely increasing. I'll put the the the
134:32 increasing. I'll put the the the confounding the confounder here is uh I
134:35 confounding the confounder here is uh I stopped drinking when I was 28. So
134:37 stopped drinking when I was 28. So basically up to 28 I was a damn idiot.
134:40 basically up to 28 I was a damn idiot. Um, but I think that
134:43 Um, but I think that where I've sort of taken things, I mean,
134:44 where I've sort of taken things, I mean, I've definitely become a sharper writer,
134:46 I've definitely become a sharper writer, a sharper thinker over time. Um, and I
134:51 a sharper thinker over time. Um, and I think there's something to that.
134:53 think there's something to that. I'll say just from the perspective of a
134:55 I'll say just from the perspective of a writer,
134:57 writer, you will write better and have more
135:00 you will write better and have more material to work with and more
135:01 material to work with and more interesting writing if you go out and do
135:04 interesting writing if you go out and do things.
135:06 things. Shocker, right? There's so many people
135:10 Shocker, right? There's so many people who it's just like entirely behind the
135:13 who it's just like entirely behind the keyboard
135:15 keyboard looking at a screen, not even talking to
135:17 looking at a screen, not even talking to another human being. Like even just the
135:19 another human being. Like even just the reporting part, they're not even talking
135:20 reporting part, they're not even talking to another human being, much less like
135:22 to another human being, much less like going out and going there and seeing
135:24 going out and going there and seeing what they find. So, just from a writing
135:26 what they find. So, just from a writing perspective, like
135:28 perspective, like of course I still sit behind the screen
135:30 of course I still sit behind the screen and read the studies, but like I'm also
135:32 and read the studies, but like I'm also going to go out and talk to this person
135:33 going to go out and talk to this person and I'm going to go do these things that
135:36 and I'm going to go do these things that give me so much more to work with. And
135:38 give me so much more to work with. And for the average person, like, okay,
135:40 for the average person, like, okay, you're not a writer. I get it. But
135:42 you're not a writer. I get it. But that's a story. Like, you want to die
135:45 that's a story. Like, you want to die with a lot of badass stories. Like,
135:47 with a lot of badass stories. Like, that's a life well-lived, right? You got
135:48 that's a life well-lived, right? You got to like shape your own narrative and go
135:50 to like shape your own narrative and go out and be able to find these moments
135:53 out and be able to find these moments and things that you've done that you can
135:55 and things that you've done that you can look back on and be like that was
135:56 look back on and be like that was awesome. And if you can fill your life
135:58 awesome. And if you can fill your life up with that because in the moment
135:59 up with that because in the moment they're awesome too. Like happiness is
136:02 they're awesome too. Like happiness is sort of it's not this end point, right?
136:03 sort of it's not this end point, right? It's like this rolling average of your
136:05 It's like this rolling average of your behaviors. So what do your behaviors
136:07 behaviors. So what do your behaviors look like? Do you have more awesome
136:09 look like? Do you have more awesome behaviors or more crappy behaviors?
136:11 behaviors or more crappy behaviors? Okay, let's try and get more awesome
136:12 Okay, let's try and get more awesome behaviors. Okay, well what are awesome
136:14 behaviors. Okay, well what are awesome behaviors? It's like probably involve
136:16 behaviors? It's like probably involve other people. probably involve doing
136:18 other people. probably involve doing things that push you a little bit and
136:19 things that push you a little bit and and teach you something about yourself.
136:21 and teach you something about yourself. It probably involves getting out of your
136:22 It probably involves getting out of your damn office every now and then and away
136:24 damn office every now and then and away from the screen. And so just trying to
136:26 from the screen. And so just trying to get enough of that. That's like, you
136:28 get enough of that. That's like, you know, that's it's a thing. And I think
136:31 know, that's it's a thing. And I think you're probably right. There's a lot
136:32 you're probably right. There's a lot happening in the brain, too. But I'll
136:33 happening in the brain, too. But I'll leave that up to you. Well, yeah. I I I
136:36 leave that up to you. Well, yeah. I I I I love the notion of creating a life of
136:38 I love the notion of creating a life of adventures and happiness as a a rolling
136:40 adventures and happiness as a a rolling average. I think that the word happiness
136:42 average. I think that the word happiness is very very uh slippery slope. Oh,
136:46 is very very uh slippery slope. Oh, totally. you're chasing feeling states
136:48 totally. you're chasing feeling states and Buddhists have talked about this and
136:50 and Buddhists have talked about this and people talk about this endlessly online.
136:51 people talk about this endlessly online. No one's talking about being miserable
136:53 No one's talking about being miserable is talking about uh feeling
136:56 is talking about uh feeling to make it neurobiological
136:58 to make it neurobiological that feeling of dopamine being trickled
137:00 that feeling of dopamine being trickled out in response to effort and getting
137:02 out in response to effort and getting the rewards of the that effort repeat.
137:04 the rewards of the that effort repeat. Yeah. And then the the rewards of course
137:07 Yeah. And then the the rewards of course include the non-effort states of being
137:09 include the non-effort states of being able to lean into uh social things with
137:11 able to lean into uh social things with more ease and more relaxation because
137:13 more ease and more relaxation because you know you put in a really great day
137:15 you know you put in a really great day or just the richness of what you've
137:17 or just the richness of what you've built in your life. Like there's that's
137:18 built in your life. Like there's that's happiness. That's like deep pleasure,
137:21 happiness. That's like deep pleasure, right? That can only be built through
137:23 right? That can only be built through through this kind of uh connection
137:25 through this kind of uh connection between the these different gears we've
137:27 between the these different gears we've been talking about. And it just has to
137:28 been talking about. And it just has to be it just has to be pursued and lived
137:31 be it just has to be pursued and lived out and no one does it perfectly. I
137:32 out and no one does it perfectly. I think that's an important component is
137:34 think that's an important component is like like you can't you can't do the
137:36 like like you can't you can't do the perfect mogi
137:38 perfect mogi just like because that sort of defeats
137:40 just like because that sort of defeats the purpose, right? You're supposed to
137:41 the purpose, right? You're supposed to catch splinters and feel miserable and
137:45 catch splinters and feel miserable and that's part of the the perfect mogi,
137:47 that's part of the the perfect mogi, right? Totally. You're not supposed to
137:48 right? Totally. You're not supposed to feel great. That's but it's not you feel
137:51 feel great. That's but it's not you feel so miserable that you regret the entire
137:52 so miserable that you regret the entire experience. Yeah. You want you want some
137:54 experience. Yeah. You want you want some calluses. I'd be interested to hear
137:57 calluses. I'd be interested to hear your thoughts here because this isn't a
137:59 your thoughts here because this isn't a fully formulated thought. Um, but I
138:01 fully formulated thought. Um, but I think a lot of it is
138:04 think a lot of it is channeling that same sort of framework
138:06 channeling that same sort of framework into something that helps you over the
138:08 into something that helps you over the long run. Right? So, if you think about
138:10 long run. Right? So, if you think about like the the structure of a lot of the
138:13 like the the structure of a lot of the behaviors that hurt people in the long
138:16 behaviors that hurt people in the long run can also have a similar structure to
138:18 run can also have a similar structure to behaviors that help them that help them
138:20 behaviors that help them that help them in the long run. So, I'll give you an
138:22 in the long run. So, I'll give you an example. Something like gambling, right?
138:24 example. Something like gambling, right? It's like this random reward schedule,
138:26 It's like this random reward schedule, right? But when people get hooked on
138:28 right? But when people get hooked on that random reward schedule in the
138:29 that random reward schedule in the context of gambling, it's like the house
138:31 context of gambling, it's like the house always wins, right? And that leads to
138:33 always wins, right? And that leads to misery. When I think of my own job
138:36 misery. When I think of my own job though, it's a very similar random
138:39 though, it's a very similar random reward structure in terms of searching
138:40 reward structure in terms of searching for information in an open environment
138:43 for information in an open environment with different charact and I don't know
138:44 with different charact and I don't know what I'm going to get. You know, it's
138:46 what I'm going to get. You know, it's like, okay, I'm going to this city. It's
138:48 like, okay, I'm going to this city. It's like when I got to Baghdad, I'm like, I
138:50 like when I got to Baghdad, I'm like, I got to report on the drug trade. Uh, I'm
138:52 got to report on the drug trade. Uh, I'm going to have to link up with all these
138:53 going to have to link up with all these characters. I have no idea what's going
138:54 characters. I have no idea what's going to happen. It's so exciting. the reels
138:56 to happen. It's so exciting. the reels of the slot machine are spinning, the
138:57 of the slot machine are spinning, the dice are falling, same exact thing, but
139:00 dice are falling, same exact thing, but it's channeled into a thing that like
139:02 it's channeled into a thing that like becomes more rewarding to me over the
139:04 becomes more rewarding to me over the long run. And so I would just like to
139:06 long run. And so I would just like to hear like how do you think about taking
139:08 hear like how do you think about taking that sort of structure and making it
139:09 that sort of structure and making it helpful for a person? Yeah. Well, the
139:11 helpful for a person? Yeah. Well, the first thing is that
139:14 first thing is that the structure and the circuitry is
139:16 the structure and the circuitry is exactly the same for gambling and going
139:18 exactly the same for gambling and going out and finding a great story and
139:20 out and finding a great story and building a great story and having those
139:22 building a great story and having those experiences, including the pitfalls, the
139:23 experiences, including the pitfalls, the losses. um that by the way set a lower
139:27 losses. um that by the way set a lower threshold for what you consider a win
139:29 threshold for what you consider a win and then you ratchet up through there
139:30 and then you ratchet up through there and you know it's like I'll never forget
139:32 and you know it's like I'll never forget my dad being a scientist who's been on
139:34 my dad being a scientist who's been on this podcast before. I'll never forget
139:36 this podcast before. I'll never forget the first time I published a paper in
139:37 the first time I published a paper in science which is like you know it's like
139:40 science which is like you know it's like Super Bowl ring that he didn't say
139:42 Super Bowl ring that he didn't say congratulations. You know what he said?
139:44 congratulations. You know what he said? He said expect yourself to feel kind of
139:46 He said expect yourself to feel kind of low in a few weeks and expect yourself
139:48 low in a few weeks and expect yourself to wonder if it will ever happen again.
139:51 to wonder if it will ever happen again. And I said will it ever happen again?
139:52 And I said will it ever happen again? And he said, "Well, if I told you that
139:54 And he said, "Well, if I told you that then the experience wouldn't be worth
139:55 then the experience wouldn't be worth much, would it?" I was like, "Damn it."
139:58 much, would it?" I was like, "Damn it." The other thing I'll just, this is
139:59 The other thing I'll just, this is answering your question uh indirectly.
140:02 answering your question uh indirectly. Uh but it's meaningful perhaps is that
140:05 Uh but it's meaningful perhaps is that my graduate adviser when we published
140:07 my graduate adviser when we published that paper, I was like, "Are we going to
140:08 that paper, I was like, "Are we going to throw a party? Like, are we going to
140:10 throw a party? Like, are we going to celebrate?" She's like, "I guess we
140:12 celebrate?" She's like, "I guess we could get a pizza or something." But um
140:15 could get a pizza or something." But um the celebration was the work. I was
140:17 the celebration was the work. I was like, "What do you mean?" She's like,
140:18 like, "What do you mean?" She's like, "The work was why was the fun, right?
140:20 "The work was why was the fun, right? You had fun doing the experiments." I'm
140:22 You had fun doing the experiments." I'm like, "Yeah, but are we going to
140:23 like, "Yeah, but are we going to celebrate?" We didn't celebrate it. And
140:24 celebrate?" We didn't celebrate it. And as a consequence, you know, humbly, we
140:26 as a consequence, you know, humbly, we went on to publish many, many more
140:28 went on to publish many, many more papers in excellent journals, not all in
140:30 papers in excellent journals, not all in science, uh, most of them in other
140:32 science, uh, most of them in other journals. But that the point being that
140:34 journals. But that the point being that um, she was teaching me to attach the
140:37 um, she was teaching me to attach the reward to the effort. And I was like,
140:40 reward to the effort. And I was like, ah, the fun is doing the experiments,
140:41 ah, the fun is doing the experiments, getting the paper like you have to take
140:43 getting the paper like you have to take the reward and and and relegate it.
140:46 the reward and and and relegate it. Yeah. To a place below the effort. You
140:50 Yeah. To a place below the effort. You can celebrate wins, but you you can't
140:52 can celebrate wins, but you you can't let yourself internalize the the wins
140:54 let yourself internalize the the wins more than the effort to get there. So,
140:57 more than the effort to get there. So, there's that. So, um yeah, so same
140:59 there's that. So, um yeah, so same circuit, it's this dopamine circuitry.
141:02 circuit, it's this dopamine circuitry. Um and of course, when I say dopamine,
141:04 Um and of course, when I say dopamine, it's that's a proxy for adrenaline and
141:06 it's that's a proxy for adrenaline and norepinephrine. Adrenaline is operating
141:07 norepinephrine. Adrenaline is operating in the body to make you feel alert.
141:09 in the body to make you feel alert. Norepinephrine is operating in the brain
141:10 Norepinephrine is operating in the brain to make you feel alert. So, those three
141:12 to make you feel alert. So, those three work together. They're cousins to like
141:13 work together. They're cousins to like get out, get up and go, pursue things.
141:15 get out, get up and go, pursue things. And it doesn't matter if it's a 4:30
141:17 And it doesn't matter if it's a 4:30 wake up or 4:00 a.m. wake up, sit down
141:19 wake up or 4:00 a.m. wake up, sit down and mental movement or it's physical
141:21 and mental movement or it's physical movement. I mean, evolution designed it
141:23 movement. I mean, evolution designed it this way and it and it's incredibly
141:25 this way and it and it's incredibly efficient and it has these pitfalls of
141:28 efficient and it has these pitfalls of gambling. Um, if you have a proclivity
141:30 gambling. Um, if you have a proclivity for alcohol, alcoholism or uh
141:32 for alcohol, alcoholism or uh methamphetamine or cocaine or if you
141:35 methamphetamine or cocaine or if you like stimulants or um for the process
141:38 like stimulants or um for the process like you know fill in the process
141:39 like you know fill in the process addiction, shopping, sex, whatever it
141:41 addiction, shopping, sex, whatever it happens to be. Um and that base you're
141:44 happens to be. Um and that base you're you're draining the bank account on
141:46 you're draining the bank account on these catacolamines and then the reset
141:47 these catacolamines and then the reset is always abstinence. Yeah. It's just
141:49 is always abstinence. Yeah. It's just abstinence, right? Yeah. And then people
141:51 abstinence, right? Yeah. And then people like people in their second or third
141:53 like people in their second or third year of sobriety are like, "Oh my god,
141:55 year of sobriety are like, "Oh my god, like the world just feels so
141:57 like the world just feels so incredible." Like there are these these
141:58 incredible." Like there are these these magnificent moments from things that I
142:00 magnificent moments from things that I just completely missed before. And it
142:02 just completely missed before. And it and it's because what brings about
142:04 and it's because what brings about pleasure now is a at a you could say
142:06 pleasure now is a at a you could say it's at a lower threshold, but the level
142:08 it's at a lower threshold, but the level of meaning is skyhigh relative to
142:10 of meaning is skyhigh relative to before. So So there's that. So there's
142:13 before. So So there's that. So there's real value to understanding dopamine
142:15 real value to understanding dopamine catakolamine dynamics because you can
142:17 catakolamine dynamics because you can identify where you are on the map at a
142:18 identify where you are on the map at a given moment that can tell you the
142:20 given moment that can tell you the direction to go. I agree. And I wish I
142:23 direction to go. I agree. And I wish I could tell you, you know, you have
142:24 could tell you, you know, you have dopamine catakolamine circuits for
142:26 dopamine catakolamine circuits for writing versus gambling versus uh
142:28 writing versus gambling versus uh wandering through Antarctica. Not
142:30 wandering through Antarctica. Not wandering, but trying to survive
142:31 wandering, but trying to survive Antarctica. It's the exact same circuit.
142:34 Antarctica. It's the exact same circuit. Yeah. Uh which is, you know, one of the
142:36 Yeah. Uh which is, you know, one of the reasons I I want to shift us to rucking.
142:39 reasons I I want to shift us to rucking. Okay. I really dislike rucking, but now
142:42 Okay. I really dislike rucking, but now you got me rocking. So tell tell us why
142:46 you got me rocking. So tell tell us why rucking and things like it are so
142:48 rucking and things like it are so valuable and are distinctly different
142:49 valuable and are distinctly different than like quoteunquote hitting the gym.
142:53 than like quoteunquote hitting the gym. So I'll tell you how I sort of came to
142:55 So I'll tell you how I sort of came to this realization, started writing about
142:57 this realization, started writing about this in the first place is that um when
143:00 this in the first place is that um when we were in the Arctic were hunting,
143:03 we were in the Arctic were hunting, right? Right. So, when you look at um
143:06 right? Right. So, when you look at um why humans are good at running, and by
143:08 why humans are good at running, and by the way, we're good at two things. We're
143:11 the way, we're good at two things. We're good at running and we're getting at
143:12 good at running and we're getting at good at caring. And I'll tell you why
143:13 good at caring. And I'll tell you why we're good at caring. So, the reason
143:15 we're good at caring. So, the reason we're good at running is because we
143:17 we're good at running is because we evolved to run long distances to chase
143:19 evolved to run long distances to chase down animals in the heat and spear them.
143:23 down animals in the heat and spear them. So, humans are really good at cooling
143:24 So, humans are really good at cooling ourselves in the heat, right? And we can
143:26 ourselves in the heat, right? And we can run these long distances. Other animals
143:28 run these long distances. Other animals can't manage their heat. So, we'd slowly
143:30 can't manage their heat. So, we'd slowly but surely run down animals. Eventually
143:32 but surely run down animals. Eventually they would get too hot, they'd topple
143:34 they would get too hot, they'd topple over from heat exhaustion and then bam,
143:36 over from heat exhaustion and then bam, we'd kill them. Okay. So this is a
143:39 we'd kill them. Okay. So this is a theory called it's called called
143:40 theory called it's called called persistence hunting. So we won the
143:42 persistence hunting. So we won the thermmorreulation game. We run the won
143:44 thermmorreulation game. We run the won the thermorreulation game. Yeah. So we
143:46 the thermorreulation game. Yeah. So we can we sweat. We don't have much fur.
143:48 can we sweat. We don't have much fur. And then our bodies are also designed
143:51 And then our bodies are also designed for this type of persistence hunting. Um
143:53 for this type of persistence hunting. Um there's a guy at Harvard Dan Lieberman
143:56 there's a guy at Harvard Dan Lieberman who had this I think it was in 2004 uh
143:58 who had this I think it was in 2004 uh paper about this how the reason we're
144:00 paper about this how the reason we're built the way we are. One of the key
144:02 built the way we are. One of the key reasons is uh so we could run long
144:03 reasons is uh so we could run long distances for persistence hunting. So
144:06 distances for persistence hunting. So I'm familiar with that research, right?
144:07 I'm familiar with that research, right? I'm like, "Oh, that's really
144:08 I'm like, "Oh, that's really interesting. Cool." Like, "Yeah, this
144:11 interesting. Cool." Like, "Yeah, this explains why I have like, you know,
144:12 explains why I have like, you know, these big butt muscles, these arched
144:13 these big butt muscles, these arched feet, these whatever." Um, so we go up
144:17 feet, these whatever." Um, so we go up to the Arctic, we're hunting, eventually
144:20 to the Arctic, we're hunting, eventually successfully hunted caribou,
144:23 successfully hunted caribou, and we, you know, we're taking every
144:25 and we, you know, we're taking every usable part of it we can. So we load our
144:27 usable part of it we can. So we load our packs with all this weight. It's like
144:29 packs with all this weight. It's like 100 something pounds in this damn pack
144:33 100 something pounds in this damn pack and start walking back to camp. And I'm
144:35 and start walking back to camp. And I'm just thinking about this research about,
144:37 just thinking about this research about, okay, humans evolved to run long
144:38 okay, humans evolved to run long distances so we could hunt. Great. What
144:42 distances so we could hunt. Great. What happens after you actually kill an
144:44 happens after you actually kill an animal? You got to carry that damn thing
144:46 animal? You got to carry that damn thing back to camp, right? And so it occurs to
144:49 back to camp, right? And so it occurs to me, well, wait a minute. We're also
144:51 me, well, wait a minute. We're also pretty unique among animals in that we
144:53 pretty unique among animals in that we can carry weight. like no other mammal
144:56 can carry weight. like no other mammal can just pick up weight on its own and
144:58 can just pick up weight on its own and carry it a long distance. I was like,
145:00 carry it a long distance. I was like, "Huh, that's interesting." So, I just
145:02 "Huh, that's interesting." So, I just start looking into this and yeah, humans
145:05 start looking into this and yeah, humans are the only mammal that can pick up a
145:07 are the only mammal that can pick up a weight and carry it a long distance. And
145:09 weight and carry it a long distance. And it absolutely shaped us into who we are.
145:12 it absolutely shaped us into who we are. It allowed us to really conquer the
145:14 It allowed us to really conquer the globe because we could take tools into
145:16 globe because we could take tools into the unknown, right? We can walk. We can
145:18 the unknown, right? We can walk. We can cover these long distances on our two
145:19 cover these long distances on our two legs and our feet, our hands are freed
145:21 legs and our feet, our hands are freed up to carry our tools, to carry whatever
145:23 up to carry our tools, to carry whatever it might be. And it really turned us
145:24 it might be. And it really turned us into who we are.
145:27 into who we are. Now the thing is is when you look at
145:28 Now the thing is is when you look at running, plenty of people run, right?
145:31 running, plenty of people run, right? Like running and marathons, that is a
145:32 Like running and marathons, that is a popular activity. But how many people
145:35 popular activity. But how many people are just like carrying weight as a
145:37 are just like carrying weight as a regular form of exercise? The answer was
145:41 regular form of exercise? The answer was really not that many. So I'm thinking
145:43 really not that many. So I'm thinking like, okay, who actually still maybe
145:45 like, okay, who actually still maybe does this? And it turns out it's the
145:47 does this? And it turns out it's the military. So rucking is sort of the main
145:51 military. So rucking is sort of the main activity of physical training in the
145:53 activity of physical training in the military. Just throwing weight in a
145:55 military. Just throwing weight in a backpack and going for a long walk. And
145:58 backpack and going for a long walk. And I've actually started to sort of even
146:00 I've actually started to sort of even shift my language from using the term
146:02 shift my language from using the term rucking to simply saying walking with
146:04 rucking to simply saying walking with weight or weighted walking. And the
146:07 weight or weighted walking. And the reason for that is is if I tell my mom,
146:09 reason for that is is if I tell my mom, "Hey, you should rock." She goes, "Oh,
146:11 "Hey, you should rock." She goes, "Oh, okay." And she types in rock and she
146:12 okay." And she types in rock and she goes, "What the hell is this military
146:15 goes, "What the hell is this military stuff, Michael? I'm 75 years old.
146:18 stuff, Michael? I'm 75 years old. So, I've started to call it more walking
146:20 So, I've started to call it more walking with weight. So, it's a little more
146:21 with weight. So, it's a little more approachable for the masses. Um, but I
146:23 approachable for the masses. Um, but I think the benefit of it is that you're
146:25 think the benefit of it is that you're getting cardio stimulus because you're
146:27 getting cardio stimulus because you're covering ground. Um, but you're also
146:29 covering ground. Um, but you're also getting strength work because you've
146:31 getting strength work because you've loaded your skeletal system, your
146:32 loaded your skeletal system, your muscular system. Um, and that comes with
146:35 muscular system. Um, and that comes with a lot of benefits. You kind of got this
146:36 a lot of benefits. You kind of got this twoin one. So, it generally will burn
146:38 twoin one. So, it generally will burn more calories per mile than walking or
146:42 more calories per mile than walking or running. And that is simply because
146:43 running. And that is simply because you've added extra weight. Of course, if
146:45 you've added extra weight. Of course, if you're running, you might cover more
146:47 you're running, you might cover more distance in the same amount of time, but
146:49 distance in the same amount of time, but if you just compare it by distance, it's
146:51 if you just compare it by distance, it's burning more calories. And um I think
146:54 burning more calories. And um I think it's one of these activities that can
146:56 it's one of these activities that can really fill in gaps in people's
146:59 really fill in gaps in people's training. And to what you sort of
147:01 training. And to what you sort of alluded to in your question is um
147:03 alluded to in your question is um there's a variety of reason it fills in
147:04 there's a variety of reason it fills in gaps, but one of them is simply that it
147:06 gaps, but one of them is simply that it gets people outside. Like there's a lot
147:08 gets people outside. Like there's a lot of gym people who are like, "Yeah, I
147:11 of gym people who are like, "Yeah, I lift all the weights, but like I'm not
147:13 lift all the weights, but like I'm not doing that running thing." A lot of
147:14 doing that running thing." A lot of people can't run and like, oh, by the
147:16 people can't run and like, oh, by the way, walking feels a little too easy.
147:18 way, walking feels a little too easy. I'm not going to do that. So, if you can
147:19 I'm not going to do that. So, if you can throw some load on someone and have them
147:21 throw some load on someone and have them go for a walk, it gets them outside.
147:24 go for a walk, it gets them outside. Helps them preferentially burn fat, it
147:26 Helps them preferentially burn fat, it seems, compared to um something like
147:28 seems, compared to um something like running. So, there's this interesting
147:30 running. So, there's this interesting study, and I'll caveat this by saying it
147:31 study, and I'll caveat this by saying it was a very small study. I think it was
147:32 was a very small study. I think it was only 12 people cuz they could only find
147:35 only 12 people cuz they could only find 12 crazy enough people to do it. It was
147:37 12 crazy enough people to do it. It was on uh backcountry hunters in Alaska. And
147:39 on uh backcountry hunters in Alaska. And so these guys carry these heavy packs
147:41 so these guys carry these heavy packs out into the mountains for, you know, a
147:42 out into the mountains for, you know, a week or whatever and they test them and
147:44 week or whatever and they test them and they ended up losing um a significant
147:46 they ended up losing um a significant amount of weight, but it was all from
147:48 amount of weight, but it was all from fat. They actually gained like a very
147:50 fat. They actually gained like a very minute amount of muscle. And that really
147:53 minute amount of muscle. And that really shouldn't happen in the context of going
147:55 shouldn't happen in the context of going out and losing weight, right? You're
147:57 out and losing weight, right? You're probably going to lose fat along with
147:58 probably going to lose fat along with muscle, but with this, they ended up
148:00 muscle, but with this, they ended up losing mostly fat. So I just think it's
148:02 losing mostly fat. So I just think it's this amazing activity that we really wo
148:06 this amazing activity that we really wo out of our lives due to technology.
148:09 out of our lives due to technology. Humans evolved to carry.
148:11 Humans evolved to carry. People were carrying babies all the like
148:14 People were carrying babies all the like every day in the past. We'd go hunt and
148:16 every day in the past. We'd go hunt and we'd have to carry all the meat back to
148:18 we'd have to carry all the meat back to camp. We would carry food that we
148:20 camp. We would carry food that we gathered. Like gathering. We're hunter
148:22 gathered. Like gathering. We're hunter hunters and gatherers. Gathering is
148:23 hunters and gatherers. Gathering is literally walking around finding some
148:25 literally walking around finding some food, carrying it, finding more,
148:27 food, carrying it, finding more, carrying it back to camp. And then we
148:29 carrying it back to camp. And then we got, you know, cars, we got grocery
148:33 got, you know, cars, we got grocery carts, we got XYZ, we got furniture
148:37 carts, we got XYZ, we got furniture dollies that we don't carry as much. And
148:39 dollies that we don't carry as much. And I think we've um lost a really important
148:42 I think we've um lost a really important form of human movement and physical
148:45 form of human movement and physical activity that we're literally born to
148:47 activity that we're literally born to do. And so my uh suggestion to all the
148:51 do. And so my uh suggestion to all the listeners is get some weight and carry
148:53 listeners is get some weight and carry it. easy to throw some weight in a
148:55 it. easy to throw some weight in a backpack and go for a walk and um it'll
148:58 backpack and go for a walk and um it'll be good for you. How much weight and how
149:00 be good for you. How much weight and how far?
149:01 far? So, if someone is just starting, I tell
149:04 So, if someone is just starting, I tell them to start light, I think. So, after
149:06 them to start light, I think. So, after I published the comfort crisis with the
149:08 I published the comfort crisis with the um there's a chap there's an entire
149:10 um there's a chap there's an entire chapter on um walking with weight or
149:12 chapter on um walking with weight or rocking. I got all these people in the
149:15 rocking. I got all these people in the military rocking destroyed me. Okay.
149:17 military rocking destroyed me. Okay. Well, how much did the military start
149:19 Well, how much did the military start you with? 100 pounds. It's like, well,
149:21 you with? 100 pounds. It's like, well, yeah. It's like if you did anything at
149:26 yeah. It's like if you did anything at that intensity immediately, just
149:27 that intensity immediately, just immediately went into like the red,
149:30 immediately went into like the red, you're going to get injured. You know,
149:31 you're going to get injured. You know, it could be squatting. It's like, yeah,
149:33 it could be squatting. It's like, yeah, I tried to max out on my deadlift every
149:35 I tried to max out on my deadlift every time I deadlifted. The first time I
149:37 time I deadlifted. The first time I deadlifted, therefore, no one should
149:38 deadlifted, therefore, no one should deadlift, right? You need to ease into
149:40 deadlift, right? You need to ease into this. So, I tell people, um, women can
149:42 this. So, I tell people, um, women can start with anywhere from five to say 20
149:46 start with anywhere from five to say 20 pounds suggest. Um, men anywhere from 10
149:50 pounds suggest. Um, men anywhere from 10 to 30 depending on your fitness level. I
149:53 to 30 depending on your fitness level. I would rather have someone really ease in
149:55 would rather have someone really ease in and sort of get used to it because a lot
149:57 and sort of get used to it because a lot of people will say, "Yeah, I went a
149:59 of people will say, "Yeah, I went a little too heavy and it really sucked."
150:00 little too heavy and it really sucked." Like, I want you to sort of on ramp
150:02 Like, I want you to sort of on ramp slowly. And then from there, you can
150:04 slowly. And then from there, you can build up over time. And so, I have
150:06 build up over time. And so, I have plenty of, you know, women who might
150:08 plenty of, you know, women who might weigh 130 pounds who now use 30 pounds,
150:11 weigh 130 pounds who now use 30 pounds, which is a significant amount of weight.
150:13 which is a significant amount of weight. Yeah. Um, I'll have men who, you know,
150:16 Yeah. Um, I'll have men who, you know, maybe they started with 20 and they're
150:18 maybe they started with 20 and they're like, "That's way too light." Like, "I I
150:20 like, "That's way too light." Like, "I I just have too much of a base of
150:21 just have too much of a base of fitness." It's like, "Okay, good. Well,
150:22 fitness." It's like, "Okay, good. Well, I'm glad we started there, though, so we
150:24 I'm glad we started there, though, so we know for sure." And then they've ramped
150:25 know for sure." And then they've ramped up to say 40, sometimes 60. I mean, for
150:29 up to say 40, sometimes 60. I mean, for me, I generally my sort of go-to weight
150:32 me, I generally my sort of go-to weight is probably 35 to 40 pounds. And I find
150:35 is probably 35 to 40 pounds. And I find that that's a weight where it's
150:38 that that's a weight where it's uncomfortable. It's challenging, but
150:40 uncomfortable. It's challenging, but it's also not so soul crushing that I'm
150:42 it's also not so soul crushing that I'm like, I got to end this walk. Like, this
150:44 like, I got to end this walk. Like, this this absolutely sucks. I can still enjoy
150:45 this absolutely sucks. I can still enjoy it. And of course, I'll go heavier
150:47 it. And of course, I'll go heavier sometimes if I'm going really far.
150:49 sometimes if I'm going really far. Sometimes I might be like 20 pounds or
150:51 Sometimes I might be like 20 pounds or something. You know, I think it's really
150:52 something. You know, I think it's really just like start light,
150:55 just like start light, take a walk, see how that feels. You
150:57 take a walk, see how that feels. You know, doesn't have to be too
150:58 know, doesn't have to be too complicated. Yeah. I said I I hate
151:00 complicated. Yeah. I said I I hate rocking, but um I love the way I feel
151:03 rocking, but um I love the way I feel afterwards. Maybe that's the form of
151:04 afterwards. Maybe that's the form of exercise I don't like there. I just
151:06 exercise I don't like there. I just outed myself as not liking a certain I I
151:08 outed myself as not liking a certain I I find that um it forces me to pay
151:12 find that um it forces me to pay attention to some of the smaller
151:14 attention to some of the smaller stabilizing muscles like you can't be as
151:16 stabilizing muscles like you can't be as loose with your gate. You have to be
151:18 loose with your gate. You have to be pretty thoughtful especially if you're
151:19 pretty thoughtful especially if you're hiking. Um you can't stride too long
151:23 hiking. Um you can't stride too long here or there. You just naturally keeps
151:25 here or there. You just naturally keeps you moving more like a a packed mule. Uh
151:28 you moving more like a a packed mule. Uh which I think can be helpful. Um, and I
151:31 which I think can be helpful. Um, and I do notice that when I take off the rucks
151:33 do notice that when I take off the rucks sack or the vest um, on a different day
151:36 sack or the vest um, on a different day and I and I run, I definitely feel
151:39 and I and I run, I definitely feel faster and lighter just by way of
151:41 faster and lighter just by way of comparison. Probably a real real change
151:43 comparison. Probably a real real change too due to the st small stabilizing
151:45 too due to the st small stabilizing muscles. This thing about losing more
151:46 muscles. This thing about losing more body fat will get will get people
151:47 body fat will get will get people motivated. People love people love that.
151:50 motivated. People love people love that. Works. I think it's also a good tool for
151:51 Works. I think it's also a good tool for runners because the injury rate is much
151:53 runners because the injury rate is much lower. So if you're within a reasonable
151:54 lower. So if you're within a reasonable amount of weight like of course if you
151:56 amount of weight like of course if you go up to these crazy weights. So, I
151:57 go up to these crazy weights. So, I generally tell people if you just want
151:59 generally tell people if you just want like a firm number, don't go over 50
152:02 like a firm number, don't go over 50 pounds. Um, if you want a more sort of
152:05 pounds. Um, if you want a more sort of dialedin number to your body weight,
152:07 dialedin number to your body weight, don't go over a third of your body
152:08 don't go over a third of your body weight. There's a lot of military
152:10 weight. There's a lot of military research that suggests that, but even
152:11 research that suggests that, but even for me, like I don't go up to a third of
152:13 for me, like I don't go up to a third of my body weight all that often, unless I
152:15 my body weight all that often, unless I have a really good reason. I'm training
152:16 have a really good reason. I'm training for something like backpacking or hunt
152:19 for something like backpacking or hunt or something. Um, so if you're in a
152:22 or something. Um, so if you're in a within a reasonable amount of weight and
152:24 within a reasonable amount of weight and not too heavy, um, the injury rate is
152:26 not too heavy, um, the injury rate is exceedingly low. It's not that much
152:28 exceedingly low. It's not that much higher than the injury rate of walking
152:30 higher than the injury rate of walking and walking is pretty safe. Do you ever
152:33 and walking is pretty safe. Do you ever experience the kind of uh crossover of
152:37 experience the kind of uh crossover of understanding between uh your physical
152:40 understanding between uh your physical pursuits and your um creative
152:42 pursuits and your um creative intellectual pursuits? Like do you find
152:44 intellectual pursuits? Like do you find that for instance if you you rock that
152:47 that for instance if you you rock that there's a certain you start to recognize
152:49 there's a certain you start to recognize where the resistance is? Is it putting
152:51 where the resistance is? Is it putting on the pack? Is it uh you know a third
152:54 on the pack? Is it uh you know a third of the way through you tend to feel
152:55 of the way through you tend to feel pretty good? Do you notice those
152:57 pretty good? Do you notice those contours and do they map to the contour
152:59 contours and do they map to the contour of sitting down and and writing? Um that
153:02 of sitting down and and writing? Um that it's hard at first, then it gets easier
153:04 it's hard at first, then it gets easier and then at some point there's a
153:05 and then at some point there's a breakthrough or else it just plain sucks
153:07 breakthrough or else it just plain sucks the whole time. I think so. I'd like to
153:10 the whole time. I think so. I'd like to hear your experience with running, but
153:12 hear your experience with running, but my experience with running is that the
153:14 my experience with running is that the first say three miles, they suck. I go,
153:20 first say three miles, they suck. I go, this is hard. Like things just start,
153:22 this is hard. Like things just start, you just feel like resistance. And then
153:24 you just feel like resistance. And then eventually, usually after say mile
153:26 eventually, usually after say mile three, all of a sudden I feel like, oh,
153:28 three, all of a sudden I feel like, oh, I could do this forever. I could do this
153:30 I could do this forever. I could do this the rest of the day if I wanted to. But
153:32 the rest of the day if I wanted to. But if I don't go through that first three
153:34 if I don't go through that first three miles, I'm never going to get to four
153:35 miles, I'm never going to get to four plus or whatever it is. And I do feel
153:37 plus or whatever it is. And I do feel like that's the same um with writing
153:39 like that's the same um with writing where it's it's challenging at first.
153:42 where it's it's challenging at first. the things aren't moving, but then
153:43 the things aren't moving, but then things just things start to move, you
153:45 things just things start to move, you know, and you but you need to you need
153:47 know, and you but you need to you need that buy in. Like you need the you're
153:50 that buy in. Like you need the you're not going to have those amazing four
153:51 not going to have those amazing four plus miles after mile four or sentence
153:55 plus miles after mile four or sentence after the 20 paragraphs you deleted if
153:58 after the 20 paragraphs you deleted if you don't run the first three miles or
153:59 you don't run the first three miles or write the first 20 paragraphs. And then
154:03 write the first 20 paragraphs. And then a related question is um specifically
154:05 a related question is um specifically about writing, but it could carry over
154:07 about writing, but it could carry over to school, music, or any sort of um kind
154:12 to school, music, or any sort of um kind of pursuit. Um you said that some days
154:15 of pursuit. Um you said that some days getting 300 quality words feels like an
154:18 getting 300 quality words feels like an accomplishment. Other days you get 3,000
154:20 accomplishment. Other days you get 3,000 words. Do you think prior to the days
154:22 words. Do you think prior to the days that you got the 3,000 words that your
154:24 that you got the 3,000 words that your brain is processing it unconsciously? Do
154:27 brain is processing it unconsciously? Do you think it all happens in the session
154:29 you think it all happens in the session or is there something like if you look
154:31 or is there something like if you look back into your days and and um hours
154:35 back into your days and and um hours before those incredible days where you
154:37 before those incredible days where you just feel amazing? Can you map it to
154:38 just feel amazing? Can you map it to anything or is it just mysterious?
154:42 anything or is it just mysterious? I think it's somewhat mysterious. Uh but
154:44 I think it's somewhat mysterious. Uh but I I guess here's how I would answer
154:46 I I guess here's how I would answer that. is there's some
154:49 that. is there's some writing I've done where you sit down and
154:52 writing I've done where you sit down and it's just it comes out and it comes out
154:56 it's just it comes out and it comes out not needing many edits and it's just
154:58 not needing many edits and it's just like like I'll give you an example um a
155:01 like like I'll give you an example um a lot there might be some bias um but a
155:04 lot there might be some bias um but a lot of my friends and people who've read
155:06 lot of my friends and people who've read my work say one of the best things I've
155:07 my work say one of the best things I've written is this essay I did about my mom
155:09 written is this essay I did about my mom it originally appeared in Men's Health
155:11 it originally appeared in Men's Health in
155:13 in 2017 maybe um it's called my badass mom
155:16 2017 maybe um it's called my badass mom I I have it on my Substack. I'll link to
155:17 I I have it on my Substack. I'll link to it in that um post.
155:20 it in that um post. I wrote that in about seven minutes.
155:23 I wrote that in about seven minutes. Sat down and just and it's like a
155:25 Sat down and just and it's like a thousand something words and it was like
155:27 thousand something words and it was like printed it and was like I don't know if
155:30 printed it and was like I don't know if I need to change this. And so why is
155:32 I need to change this. And so why is that? Because I've been thinking on that
155:34 that? Because I've been thinking on that piece for 30 something years and it was
155:37 piece for 30 something years and it was just that was the moment and just the
155:38 just that was the moment and just the energy got captured and then that was
155:41 energy got captured and then that was it.
155:42 it. A good example of this, and this is a
155:44 A good example of this, and this is a person at a much higher level, is um I
155:47 person at a much higher level, is um I was watching a Tom Petty documentary.
155:50 was watching a Tom Petty documentary. Apparently, he sat down, flipped on a
155:52 Apparently, he sat down, flipped on a recorder, and just came up with Wild
155:56 recorder, and just came up with Wild Flowers.
155:57 Flowers. Literally started just playing those
155:59 Literally started just playing those chords and making up the lyrics as he
156:01 chords and making up the lyrics as he went and recorded Wild Flowers.
156:05 went and recorded Wild Flowers. Just went, "Holy shit." Right? That is
156:07 Just went, "Holy shit." Right? That is like there are times when like magic
156:08 like there are times when like magic happens and just lightning strikes and
156:10 happens and just lightning strikes and you got to be you just got to be there
156:12 you got to be you just got to be there for it though. It's like I think things
156:13 for it though. It's like I think things like that can happen. But I think to
156:15 like that can happen. But I think to your point, why could that happen? It's
156:17 your point, why could that happen? It's because he had like all this experience
156:20 because he had like all this experience that just sort of like was swelling and
156:22 that just sort of like was swelling and bubbling under and finally it just like
156:24 bubbling under and finally it just like converged.
156:26 converged. Brings it me to a earlier point in our
156:30 Brings it me to a earlier point in our discussion. I I genuinely believe that
156:34 discussion. I I genuinely believe that the raw materials of great writing and
156:36 the raw materials of great writing and music and science and uh you know
156:40 music and science and uh you know whatever podcasting uh visual art,
156:43 whatever podcasting uh visual art, painting, those raw materials are
156:45 painting, those raw materials are collected away from the the actual craft
156:48 collected away from the the actual craft and so you have to get out into the real
156:50 and so you have to get out into the real world and experience those. Where have
156:52 world and experience those. Where have you gotten your best material,
156:54 you gotten your best material, scientific work, ideas you're flowing
156:57 scientific work, ideas you're flowing into podcasts? like how does all that
156:59 into podcasts? like how does all that unfold for you? For me, you know, PubMed
157:03 unfold for you? For me, you know, PubMed is um it's like the it's the
157:07 is um it's like the it's the intellectual wilderness of published
157:10 intellectual wilderness of published material as our books and lectures, but
157:12 material as our books and lectures, but mostly PubMed. So, the more time I can
157:15 mostly PubMed. So, the more time I can spend foraging papers and looking at
157:18 spend foraging papers and looking at graphs and seeing things and and
157:19 graphs and seeing things and and connecting it to something else and um
157:22 connecting it to something else and um that's where you know the ideas, those
157:25 that's where you know the ideas, those are the raw materials. Yeah. like like
157:27 are the raw materials. Yeah. like like this year I haven't been doing quite as
157:28 this year I haven't been doing quite as many solos as I work on the book, but
157:31 many solos as I work on the book, but I'm getting back to solos soon and I've
157:32 I'm getting back to solos soon and I've got these like folders upon folders of
157:34 got these like folders upon folders of papers that no one's ever discussed out
157:36 papers that no one's ever discussed out there that I think have real gems in
157:38 there that I think have real gems in them. So those are that's those are the
157:39 them. So those are that's those are the minds in which I'm mining for
157:41 minds in which I'm mining for information that I then have to work
157:43 information that I then have to work with. So for me it's PubMed and
157:45 with. So for me it's PubMed and occasionally it's getting on the phone
157:47 occasionally it's getting on the phone like I did yesterday with a neurosurgeon
157:49 like I did yesterday with a neurosurgeon friend of mine and having a discussion
157:51 friend of mine and having a discussion about the Vegas nerve and realizing that
157:54 about the Vegas nerve and realizing that everything that's out there about the
157:55 everything that's out there about the Vegas nerve everything is exactly
157:57 Vegas nerve everything is exactly backwards. Interesting. And going and I
158:00 backwards. Interesting. And going and I was like is this possible? And he's like
158:01 was like is this possible? And he's like yeah and I'm like why hasn't the
158:02 yeah and I'm like why hasn't the narrative been corrected? And he's like
158:03 narrative been corrected? And he's like well because there's never been a a a
158:05 well because there's never been a a a real neuroscientist talking about it. I
158:07 real neuroscientist talking about it. I was like, "Oh, wow. We have it exactly
158:09 was like, "Oh, wow. We have it exactly backwards." Just for not to be cryptic
158:11 backwards." Just for not to be cryptic here, the vagus nerve, even though it's
158:13 here, the vagus nerve, even though it's classified as parasympathetic, is not a
158:14 classified as parasympathetic, is not a calming pathway. It's a pathway by which
158:17 calming pathway. It's a pathway by which physical movement wakes up the brain.
158:20 physical movement wakes up the brain. Period. Or mechanical changes in the gut
158:23 Period. Or mechanical changes in the gut wake up the bra. It's all excitatory.
158:24 wake up the bra. It's all excitatory. Everyone thinks the vagus calm down. No,
158:26 Everyone thinks the vagus calm down. No, the only quieting signals come from the
158:28 the only quieting signals come from the brain to the body. Interesting. And
158:29 brain to the body. Interesting. And there are a few of them in there, but
158:30 there are a few of them in there, but the vast majority of the Vegas is this
158:32 the vast majority of the Vegas is this way that the way to wake up your brain
158:34 way that the way to wake up your brain is to move your body. So that's um
158:36 is to move your body. So that's um anyway I don't want to go too far down
158:38 anyway I don't want to go too far down this rabbit hole. This though this
158:39 this rabbit hole. This though this sounds like what I was just talking
158:40 sounds like what I was just talking about when I'm in a place and having to
158:42 about when I'm in a place and having to find information for a story and I
158:45 find information for a story and I experience it's that you use the word
158:47 experience it's that you use the word foraging, right? It's that that like the
158:51 foraging, right? It's that that like the chase of the the thing. What's the thing
158:54 chase of the the thing. What's the thing I'm going to find here? I got this
158:55 I'm going to find here? I got this question. I got to go find these and I
158:57 question. I got to go find these and I don't know what I'm going to encounter
158:58 don't know what I'm going to encounter out there in the wilderness as you put
159:00 out there in the wilderness as you put it. That is the best.
159:03 it. That is the best. It's why people get hooked on social
159:05 It's why people get hooked on social media. It's why people get hooked on
159:06 media. It's why people get hooked on gambling. It's why people get hooked on
159:07 gambling. It's why people get hooked on dating apps or whatever the hell it is.
159:10 dating apps or whatever the hell it is. I think the problem today is that you
159:12 I think the problem today is that you see it getting put into um technology
159:14 see it getting put into um technology and leveraged in a way that maybe hurts
159:17 and leveraged in a way that maybe hurts people over the long run. Whereas if you
159:19 people over the long run. Whereas if you can find a way to leverage that as you
159:21 can find a way to leverage that as you have and are telling me now that helps
159:23 have and are telling me now that helps you in the long run, that's like the
159:25 you in the long run, that's like the unlock, right? Yeah. Yeah. That's what a
159:27 unlock, right? Yeah. Yeah. That's what a lot of these failure to launch um kids
159:30 lot of these failure to launch um kids are are not
159:33 are are not um accessing totally. And Anna Lemi of
159:36 um accessing totally. And Anna Lemi of you know the author of Dopamine Nation
159:38 you know the author of Dopamine Nation has said this you know when she said
159:39 has said this you know when she said like what what do you what are people
159:40 like what what do you what are people who haven't found their passion supposed
159:42 who haven't found their passion supposed to do and she'll say mow the lawn and
159:44 to do and she'll say mow the lawn and people go this just sounds like a mom
159:46 people go this just sounds like a mom telling me what to do but she she
159:47 telling me what to do but she she understands it's the same circuitry.
159:49 understands it's the same circuitry. You're trying to get that that you do
159:51 You're trying to get that that you do something you don't want to do you
159:52 something you don't want to do you complete it it's job well done. You're
159:54 complete it it's job well done. You're learning a process
159:56 learning a process and then you start to, you know, um,
159:59 and then you start to, you know, um, superimpose the understanding of that
160:01 superimpose the understanding of that process onto things that are hopefully
160:03 process onto things that are hopefully meaningful and and generative, you know,
160:06 meaningful and and generative, you know, as opposed to destructive. That the
160:08 as opposed to destructive. That the problem is it's like a trail where on
160:10 problem is it's like a trail where on either side you can slip every day you
160:12 either side you can slip every day you can slip down the slope of numbing out
160:15 can slip down the slope of numbing out or drama. You're trying to stay on a
160:18 or drama. You're trying to stay on a trail to keep it in the language of
160:19 trail to keep it in the language of Michael Easter like you're trying to
160:21 Michael Easter like you're trying to stay on a trail this narrow and you
160:23 stay on a trail this narrow and you don't know where it's going and it's
160:24 don't know where it's going and it's splitting off and you don't know which
160:25 splitting off and you don't know which is the right one and and there just so
160:27 is the right one and and there just so many opportunities to slide down the the
160:28 many opportunities to slide down the the edges totally every day all day and
160:31 edges totally every day all day and those edges continuously get tweaked to
160:34 those edges continuously get tweaked to be slipperier,
160:36 be slipperier, easier to fall down, steeper. So in
160:39 easier to fall down, steeper. So in scarcity brain I um so I live in Las
160:43 scarcity brain I um so I live in Las Vegas, right? And so you see people
160:44 Vegas, right? And so you see people playing slot machines all day long and
160:47 playing slot machines all day long and there's slot machines everywhere. And I
160:49 there's slot machines everywhere. And I just look I go, why do people do that?
160:53 just look I go, why do people do that? Because everyone knows the house always
160:55 Because everyone knows the house always wins, right? You want evidence? Why
160:57 wins, right? You want evidence? Why would there be those bajillion dollar
160:59 would there be those bajillion dollar casinos down there if people were
161:01 casinos down there if people were actually winning at gambling? And I'll
161:04 actually winning at gambling? And I'll keep this story short, but I ended up in
161:06 keep this story short, but I ended up in this um casino that's new, but it's used
161:09 this um casino that's new, but it's used entirely for research on gambling
161:12 entirely for research on gambling behavior. Um
161:15 behavior. Um levers, I'll say, that can be pulled in
161:17 levers, I'll say, that can be pulled in casinos to get people to effectively
161:19 casinos to get people to effectively gamble more. And it's funded by um
161:21 gamble more. And it's funded by um Caesars is one of the companies in it.
161:23 Caesars is one of the companies in it. There's also a bunch of tech companies
161:24 There's also a bunch of tech companies in there. And I think that that is like
161:28 in there. And I think that that is like a metaphor for the world we live in
161:31 a metaphor for the world we live in where now because things can be tracked
161:33 where now because things can be tracked and digitized that like people who are
161:37 and digitized that like people who are using this in a way where it's
161:39 using this in a way where it's maybe arguably not helping people in the
161:42 maybe arguably not helping people in the long run. There's just so much
161:43 long run. There's just so much information that that saw can
161:44 information that that saw can continuously be sharpened and sharpened
161:47 continuously be sharpened and sharpened and sharpened. I think slot machines are
161:49 and sharpened. I think slot machines are also just the ultimate metaphor because
161:51 also just the ultimate metaphor because they um in the 80 up until about 1980 no
161:54 they um in the 80 up until about 1980 no one played them and um then you had a
161:58 one played them and um then you had a guy come in in the 1980s his name was Cy
162:01 guy come in in the 1980s his name was Cy Red and he had noticed that his kids his
162:05 Red and he had noticed that his kids his grandkids would play Atari all day long.
162:08 grandkids would play Atari all day long. He's like they just get hooked on Atari
162:10 He's like they just get hooked on Atari and he's like that's interesting.
162:13 and he's like that's interesting. what can I take from that and apply to
162:15 what can I take from that and apply to these machines that I make? So, what he
162:19 these machines that I make? So, what he does is he makes the first screenbased
162:20 does is he makes the first screenbased slot machines. And when slot machines go
162:24 slot machines. And when slot machines go screenbased, all of a sudden you can
162:27 screenbased, all of a sudden you can program the odds rather than be
162:29 program the odds rather than be constrained by actual spinning reels
162:31 constrained by actual spinning reels because there's only so many symbols you
162:33 because there's only so many symbols you can fit, right? So, now you can offer
162:35 can fit, right? So, now you can offer this total crazy world of different
162:37 this total crazy world of different combinations and jackpots. and he
162:40 combinations and jackpots. and he realizes, oh, what we can do because we
162:43 realizes, oh, what we can do because we have all these options now
162:45 have all these options now is we can have people bet a bunch of
162:49 is we can have people bet a bunch of different lines. So on like a on a
162:51 different lines. So on like a on a digital slot machine, you can bet like
162:53 digital slot machine, you can bet like 40 different ways the line is going to
162:55 40 different ways the line is going to go and the things are going to fill up.
162:57 go and the things are going to fill up. And what we can do from there is that if
162:59 And what we can do from there is that if you get a win, you might quote unquote
163:01 you get a win, you might quote unquote win, but let's say you bet a dollar,
163:03 win, but let's say you bet a dollar, you'll win say 50 cents or 40 cents.
163:07 you'll win say 50 cents or 40 cents. That is what casino companies call a
163:08 That is what casino companies call a loss disguised as a win. The thing is is
163:11 loss disguised as a win. The thing is is when that happens to people doesn't
163:13 when that happens to people doesn't necessarily register as a loss.
163:16 necessarily register as a loss. Something exciting happened, right? And
163:19 Something exciting happened, right? And so all of a sudden the machine can start
163:21 so all of a sudden the machine can start have something exciting happen far more
163:24 have something exciting happen far more times, but you're just slowly losing
163:26 times, but you're just slowly losing your money instead of quickly losing
163:28 your money instead of quickly losing your money. So the reason that people
163:30 your money. So the reason that people weren't playing slot machines up to 1980
163:32 weren't playing slot machines up to 1980 is because simply by the constraints of
163:35 is because simply by the constraints of space and the way that reels were like
163:38 space and the way that reels were like physical reels, you just couldn't win
163:40 physical reels, you just couldn't win all that often. So you might play 20
163:42 all that often. So you might play 20 games and you nothing ever happens. So
163:44 games and you nothing ever happens. So that behavior is going to extinguish
163:46 that behavior is going to extinguish like really quick. But if you can get
163:48 like really quick. But if you can get someone on a machine where like maybe
163:50 someone on a machine where like maybe every third pull, maybe every second
163:53 every third pull, maybe every second pull, something happens, the machine
163:56 pull, something happens, the machine lights up. Ding, ding, ding, ding, ding.
163:58 lights up. Ding, ding, ding, ding, ding. Congratulations. You won. You won 40
164:00 Congratulations. You won. You won 40 cents on your dollar bat. Isn't this
164:02 cents on your dollar bat. Isn't this exciting? Congratulations and welcome to
164:04 exciting? Congratulations and welcome to Las Vegas. Now, all of a sudden, you
164:05 Las Vegas. Now, all of a sudden, you start to see slot machines go from like
164:07 start to see slot machines go from like being thrown in the corners of casinos
164:09 being thrown in the corners of casinos to taking over casino floors. So, they
164:11 to taking over casino floors. So, they now bring in 85% of uh casino revenues.
164:14 now bring in 85% of uh casino revenues. And people spend more money on slot
164:16 And people spend more money on slot machines than they do uh books, movies,
164:18 machines than they do uh books, movies, and music combined. And it was really
164:21 and music combined. And it was really just this tweaking of this perfect
164:24 just this tweaking of this perfect reward schedule where you're getting
164:26 reward schedule where you're getting just the right amount of rewards at a
164:28 just the right amount of rewards at a random schedule and it's just been
164:30 random schedule and it's just been sharpened. And then you see companies
164:33 sharpened. And then you see companies go,
164:35 go, "What the hell's happening in Vegas?"
164:37 "What the hell's happening in Vegas?" And then that gets placed into social
164:39 And then that gets placed into social media, into dating apps, into online
164:42 media, into dating apps, into online shopping. Like you go on shopping places
164:44 shopping. Like you go on shopping places now there's a damn spinning wheel,
164:46 now there's a damn spinning wheel, right, to get a discount. It's like
164:48 right, to get a discount. It's like that's what happens when you walk into a
164:49 that's what happens when you walk into a Las Vegas casino, too. First thing you
164:51 Las Vegas casino, too. First thing you see is a spinning wheel because it's a
164:52 see is a spinning wheel because it's a suckers game and then just spread
164:55 suckers game and then just spread everywhere.
164:57 everywhere. Wow. Yeah. And the speed. Speed is a big
165:00 Wow. Yeah. And the speed. Speed is a big thing. So, the other thing with the
165:03 thing. So, the other thing with the spinning reels when it's physical, you
165:05 spinning reels when it's physical, you pull this handle, it's a slow process.
165:08 pull this handle, it's a slow process. Pull, clunk, clunk, clunk. Okay. Pull,
165:12 Pull, clunk, clunk, clunk. Okay. Pull, clunk, clunk, clunk. So the CI red guy,
165:15 clunk, clunk, clunk. So the CI red guy, he realizes, hey, this pulling the
165:16 he realizes, hey, this pulling the handle thing, that's just slowing people
165:18 handle thing, that's just slowing people down. What if we made the spin a button?
165:21 down. What if we made the spin a button? And what happened is the average slot
165:23 And what happened is the average slot gamer went from playing 400 games an
165:25 gamer went from playing 400 games an hour to 900 games an hour.
165:29 hour to 900 games an hour. Yeah. Swipe right, swipe left, swipe
165:32 Yeah. Swipe right, swipe left, swipe right, swipe left. Whoa. Infinite
165:34 right, swipe left. Whoa. Infinite scroll,
165:37 scroll, right? Infinite pages that just load as
165:40 right? Infinite pages that just load as you shop. You want no friction.
165:42 you shop. You want no friction. Everything needs to be frictionless. The
165:44 Everything needs to be frictionless. The faster you can do a behavior, the more
165:46 faster you can do a behavior, the more likely you are to do a behavior. And
165:48 likely you are to do a behavior. And this all got figured out in this
165:51 this all got figured out in this strange,
165:53 strange, heartless, but freaking beautiful town I
165:55 heartless, but freaking beautiful town I live in called Las Vegas.
165:58 live in called Las Vegas. Wow. Yeah. I would love to go to a
165:59 Wow. Yeah. I would love to go to a casino with you sometimes. Just sometime
166:01 casino with you sometimes. Just sometime just to like watch you analyze people
166:03 just to like watch you analyze people and be like, that's what's happening to
166:05 and be like, that's what's happening to this person. Well, you their baseline on
166:06 this person. Well, you their baseline on dopamine is dropping. They'll get the
166:08 dopamine is dropping. They'll get the little inflections, the wins or the
166:10 little inflections, the wins or the perceived wins, right? what you don't
166:12 perceived wins, right? what you don't perceive is your baseline. Right. Right.
166:14 perceive is your baseline. Right. Right. We're not in touch with our dopamine
166:16 We're not in touch with our dopamine baseline. We're in touch with the
166:17 baseline. We're in touch with the inflections from that baseline. And and
166:19 inflections from that baseline. And and that can be very distracting. I mean,
166:21 that can be very distracting. I mean, and there's a whole set of parallel
166:23 and there's a whole set of parallel conversations about addiction here. Uh I
166:25 conversations about addiction here. Uh I mean, this is what you just described.
166:28 mean, this is what you just described. um makes me remember what Anna LMK, one
166:32 um makes me remember what Anna LMK, one of our first guests ever on this
166:33 of our first guests ever on this podcast, right as Dopamine Nation um was
166:36 podcast, right as Dopamine Nation um was published said, which was that her
166:40 published said, which was that her formerly addicted patients who get sober
166:43 formerly addicted patients who get sober from whatever cannabis, alcohol,
166:45 from whatever cannabis, alcohol, gambling, whatever it is, that they are
166:48 gambling, whatever it is, that they are her heroes. And I thought, oh, that's
166:51 her heroes. And I thought, oh, that's beautiful, right? She her patients are
166:52 beautiful, right? She her patients are her heroes. What what more beautiful
166:54 her heroes. What what more beautiful thing could a doctor say? She's an MD
166:57 thing could a doctor say? She's an MD after all. And now she's saying, "No,
167:00 after all. And now she's saying, "No, no. I not only do I respect and admire
167:02 no. I not only do I respect and admire them, but they're my heroes because they
167:04 them, but they're my heroes because they are better equipped to deal with the
167:06 are better equipped to deal with the landscape of life than people who have
167:09 landscape of life than people who have not experienced the deep hole that
167:14 not experienced the deep hole that addiction can bring and then getting
167:15 addiction can bring and then getting themselves out of it and understanding
167:17 themselves out of it and understanding these dopamine dynamics, these
167:18 these dopamine dynamics, these catakolamine circuits as I'm referring
167:20 catakolamine circuits as I'm referring to them." That's what she was saying.
167:22 to them." That's what she was saying. She wasn't saying they overcame a lot. I
167:24 She wasn't saying they overcame a lot. I mean she was saying that too but it was
167:26 mean she was saying that too but it was that they understand life at a deep
167:28 that they understand life at a deep level to be able to go into the world
167:31 level to be able to go into the world now and to really glean tremendous
167:33 now and to really glean tremendous meaning and benefit from the smallest of
167:35 meaning and benefit from the smallest of things and that's where I distilled it
167:36 things and that's where I distilled it down to as I needed to make it uh
167:39 down to as I needed to make it uh succinct for social media ironically to
167:42 succinct for social media ironically to the statement that addiction is a
167:44 the statement that addiction is a progressive narrowing of the things that
167:46 progressive narrowing of the things that bring us pleasure and that happiness or
167:48 bring us pleasure and that happiness or maybe even enlightenment if there is
167:50 maybe even enlightenment if there is such a thing is a progressive expansion
167:52 such a thing is a progressive expansion of the things that bring us pleasure.
167:54 of the things that bring us pleasure. But what she's saying is these people
167:55 But what she's saying is these people were in the pit, got out of the pit, and
167:57 were in the pit, got out of the pit, and therefore she admires them. So, um gosh,
168:01 therefore she admires them. So, um gosh, I want to visit this um very diabolical
168:04 I want to visit this um very diabolical casino. I guess all casinos are kind of
168:06 casino. I guess all casinos are kind of diabolical. I actually really like
168:08 diabolical. I actually really like gambling. Um my team knows this. Um I do
168:11 gambling. Um my team knows this. Um I do too. I really enjoy it. I I it changes
168:14 too. I really enjoy it. I I it changes my um internal kind of RPM.
168:19 my um internal kind of RPM. this vague language here, but when I I
168:21 this vague language here, but when I I play uh a little roulette or I'll like
168:24 play uh a little roulette or I'll like just I don't know gamble on a on a game
168:27 just I don't know gamble on a on a game or something like I can feel the lift it
168:29 or something like I can feel the lift it gives me, which is why I don't gamble. I
168:32 gives me, which is why I don't gamble. I know myself and I can feel that thing.
168:34 know myself and I can feel that thing. It's like a it's an energy that feels
168:37 It's like a it's an energy that feels kind of like throughout the body and and
168:39 kind of like throughout the body and and you're unaware of of really um anything
168:43 you're unaware of of really um anything else. It's a little bit of a tunnel. And
168:44 else. It's a little bit of a tunnel. And I've never gambled much money. I've
168:46 I've never gambled much money. I've never thought to, but I recognize that
168:48 never thought to, but I recognize that feeling and I'm like, "Oh, no." Yeah.
168:51 feeling and I'm like, "Oh, no." Yeah. Yeah. You You have it, too. I enjoy it.
168:54 Yeah. You You have it, too. I enjoy it. I also once I hit a certain amount of
168:57 I also once I hit a certain amount of and I keep my threshold very low for
168:59 and I keep my threshold very low for when I'm going to gamble because I live
169:00 when I'm going to gamble because I live in Las Vegas. Like, probably not a good
169:02 in Las Vegas. Like, probably not a good idea to get really into gambling if you
169:04 idea to get really into gambling if you live in a town where it's everywhere.
169:06 live in a town where it's everywhere. Like, you go to the grocery store and
169:08 Like, you go to the grocery store and you can gamble. Um, so I keep it pretty
169:11 you can gamble. Um, so I keep it pretty low. We gamble like once a month. I
169:12 low. We gamble like once a month. I mean, we're like, you know, we're not
169:14 mean, we're like, you know, we're not spending much money, but it's enjoyable.
169:17 spending much money, but it's enjoyable. That's that's the thing, right? Is like
169:18 That's that's the thing, right? Is like with so many things that can be um
169:21 with so many things that can be um addictive is there's vastly more people
169:24 addictive is there's vastly more people that can go in, have a little bit of
169:27 that can go in, have a little bit of fun, that was a good time, and then move
169:30 fun, that was a good time, and then move on with their life. And then there's a
169:31 on with their life. And then there's a small subset of the population that
169:33 small subset of the population that gets, for whatever reason, it's that
169:35 gets, for whatever reason, it's that thing that does it for them, and it
169:37 thing that does it for them, and it sucks them in. There's also because
169:39 sucks them in. There's also because we're talking about gambling and
169:40 we're talking about gambling and addiction.
169:43 addiction. There's uh some research. I believe this
169:45 There's uh some research. I believe this woman was at NYU and she studied uh
169:47 woman was at NYU and she studied uh problem gamblers and went to Las Vegas,
169:50 problem gamblers and went to Las Vegas, interviewed a bunch of them and she
169:52 interviewed a bunch of them and she found that a lot of the seriously
169:54 found that a lot of the seriously problem gamblers when they would get a
169:57 problem gamblers when they would get a big win, it would piss them off. And
170:00 big win, it would piss them off. And here's why. Because when you get a big
170:02 here's why. Because when you get a big win, if it's over $1,200, what happens
170:04 win, if it's over $1,200, what happens is your machine locks up. and the casino
170:08 is your machine locks up. and the casino boss pit, he comes over and he makes you
170:10 boss pit, he comes over and he makes you fill out a tax form because, you know,
170:12 fill out a tax form because, you know, once you get over $1,200, now you got to
170:13 once you get over $1,200, now you got to pay taxes on it. They weren't there
170:16 pay taxes on it. They weren't there necessarily to win. They were there to
170:18 necessarily to win. They were there to just get in the flow of the machine and
170:20 just get in the flow of the machine and just have the ups and the downs and just
170:22 just have the ups and the downs and just like ride that out and having a big win,
170:25 like ride that out and having a big win, it would interrupt that and that would
170:26 it would interrupt that and that would frustrate him, which is just nuts. the
170:29 frustrate him, which is just nuts. the way you offer up these real life
170:31 way you offer up these real life examples for me and I know for the
170:33 examples for me and I know for the listeners provides such a rich um
170:36 listeners provides such a rich um substrate for for understanding the the
170:39 substrate for for understanding the the kind of universal circuitry and I'm so
170:41 kind of universal circuitry and I'm so grateful to you for that. You talked
170:43 grateful to you for that. You talked earlier about the the speed of the of
170:45 earlier about the the speed of the of the slot machine. Yeah. So what I think
170:47 the slot machine. Yeah. So what I think is very dangerous
170:49 is very dangerous um and we talked about before on this
170:51 um and we talked about before on this podcast is um this notion of dopamine
170:54 podcast is um this notion of dopamine that's not preceded by effort. But I
170:56 that's not preceded by effort. But I think you said it best and I'd like to
170:58 think you said it best and I'd like to replace that with something that's uh
171:00 replace that with something that's uh much more fasile for people and
171:01 much more fasile for people and hopefully intuitive as well. Basically,
171:04 hopefully intuitive as well. Basically, anytime we find ourselves in
171:06 anytime we find ourselves in frictionless or low friction foraging,
171:10 frictionless or low friction foraging, we're in serious trouble. Get out. Get
171:14 we're in serious trouble. Get out. Get out then. Like the moment you you're in
171:16 out then. Like the moment you you're in a frictionless foraging mode, your your
171:18 a frictionless foraging mode, your your baseline's dropping and you don't
171:20 baseline's dropping and you don't realize it. Totally. A good exa a good
171:22 realize it. Totally. A good exa a good example of a way this was used um
171:24 example of a way this was used um relatively recently that has I think
171:27 relatively recently that has I think been disastrous especially for younger
171:29 been disastrous especially for younger men is in um sports betting. So sports
171:34 men is in um sports betting. So sports betting gets you know legalized in a
171:36 betting gets you know legalized in a bunch of different states. Well, it used
171:38 bunch of different states. Well, it used to be that in order to place a sports
171:39 to be that in order to place a sports bet, you had to drive to the casino and
171:43 bet, you had to drive to the casino and you could bet on the game that was hours
171:46 you could bet on the game that was hours away and then maybe you would watch the
171:48 away and then maybe you would watch the full game at the casino. How long does a
171:50 full game at the casino. How long does a game take? three hours. So, you wait at
171:53 game take? three hours. So, you wait at the casino and then you either cash in
171:54 the casino and then you either cash in or, you know, you lost your bet. Well,
171:57 or, you know, you lost your bet. Well, once it gets sort of legalized and now
171:59 once it gets sort of legalized and now it's in all these different states and
172:00 it's in all these different states and it goes to cell phones. Okay. So, now
172:03 it goes to cell phones. Okay. So, now it's like I don't even have to drive to
172:04 it's like I don't even have to drive to the casino. I can do this right now
172:06 the casino. I can do this right now through two buttons. And then one thing
172:09 through two buttons. And then one thing that the gambling industry did that was
172:11 that the gambling industry did that was good for the profits, probably not good
172:12 good for the profits, probably not good for the user, is to go, okay, well, if
172:16 for the user, is to go, okay, well, if we know that speed will increase
172:18 we know that speed will increase gambling rates, and the more a person
172:20 gambling rates, and the more a person gamles, we can look at the math and go,
172:22 gamles, we can look at the math and go, we just need them to gamble more because
172:24 we just need them to gamble more because that's how we win our money. It's in the
172:26 that's how we win our money. It's in the volume. Um, what can we do to solve this
172:29 volume. Um, what can we do to solve this problem of the fact that a game is three
172:30 problem of the fact that a game is three hours long because how many games are
172:33 hours long because how many games are there in a day? Wait a minute. What if
172:36 there in a day? Wait a minute. What if you could bet on a play? How many plays
172:39 you could bet on a play? How many plays are there in a game? I don't know,
172:40 are there in a game? I don't know, hundreds. Okay, let's bet on this play.
172:43 hundreds. Okay, let's bet on this play. So, now you have like these live in-game
172:44 So, now you have like these live in-game thing. Like, is this person going to
172:45 thing. Like, is this person going to score up to bat? Is this There's all
172:47 score up to bat? Is this There's all these different ways a person can bet.
172:49 these different ways a person can bet. And then the addition of uh parlays as
172:52 And then the addition of uh parlays as well where you've got like 12 teams or
172:54 well where you've got like 12 teams or whatever and like these like bonus
172:57 whatever and like these like bonus things they throw in. It's just like it
173:00 things they throw in. It's just like it is a train wreck.
173:02 is a train wreck. When you said there's a growing problem
173:06 When you said there's a growing problem nowadays among young men, I thought you
173:07 nowadays among young men, I thought you were going to talk about frictionless
173:09 were going to talk about frictionless foraging and online pornography. Oh
173:12 foraging and online pornography. Oh yeah, that's we got we got plenty of
173:14 yeah, that's we got we got plenty of problems. And so what I'm realizing is
173:16 problems. And so what I'm realizing is there are numerous examples of this out
173:18 there are numerous examples of this out there. But hopefully this framework of
173:21 there. But hopefully this framework of um rate and um low frict low friction
173:24 um rate and um low frict low friction high-speed foraging means you're you're
173:27 high-speed foraging means you're you're just gonna end up in a pit. Yeah,
173:30 just gonna end up in a pit. Yeah, totally. You gota figure out ways to
173:32 totally. You gota figure out ways to slow things down if you can. I think
173:34 slow things down if you can. I think there's I think it's hard but I think
173:36 there's I think it's hard but I think there's ways to do it. Um another
173:38 there's ways to do it. Um another interesting example and this one isn't I
173:40 interesting example and this one isn't I don't think is as sort of onetoone as
173:42 don't think is as sort of onetoone as the others we've been talking about but
173:44 the others we've been talking about but there's a guy from junk from the junk
173:45 there's a guy from junk from the junk food industry and you see this rise in
173:48 food industry and you see this rise in junk food in the 1970s and what happened
173:50 junk food in the 1970s and what happened is um sort of like the casinos looking
173:52 is um sort of like the casinos looking at sports going well like well these
173:55 at sports going well like well these things are long there's long stretches
173:56 things are long there's long stretches between these events. Um in the 70s the
174:00 between these events. Um in the 70s the food industry was like well people are
174:01 food industry was like well people are eating three square we need them to eat
174:04 eating three square we need them to eat more food. What if we invent snacking
174:06 more food. What if we invent snacking let's make snacking a big industry. So
174:08 let's make snacking a big industry. So they start they come up with this new
174:10 they start they come up with this new thing snacking right like snacking
174:12 thing snacking right like snacking becomes this thing. And this guy from
174:14 becomes this thing. And this guy from the junk food industry basically said if
174:16 the junk food industry basically said if you want to get a um a junk food to sell
174:20 you want to get a um a junk food to sell and take off it's got to have three V's.
174:22 and take off it's got to have three V's. It's got to have value. It's got to have
174:25 It's got to have value. It's got to have variety. And it's got to have velocity.
174:28 variety. And it's got to have velocity. meaning cheap, meaning lots of different
174:31 meaning cheap, meaning lots of different options. So, think of Doritos. There's
174:33 options. So, think of Doritos. There's like 10 different flavors, right? You
174:34 like 10 different flavors, right? You got nacho cheese, normal cheese, chili
174:36 got nacho cheese, normal cheese, chili cheese, whatever, on and on. Uh, and
174:38 cheese, whatever, on and on. Uh, and then velocity. It's got to be quick and
174:40 then velocity. It's got to be quick and easy to eat. It's got to be a food that
174:42 easy to eat. It's got to be a food that you can just pound a bunch of calories
174:44 you can just pound a bunch of calories in one sitting and want to just keep
174:46 in one sitting and want to just keep going. And once they sort of lock that
174:48 going. And once they sort of lock that in, you start to see that's really you
174:50 in, you start to see that's really you start to see obesity take off in the 70s
174:53 start to see obesity take off in the 70s in the US or mental obesity and Tik Tok.
174:56 in the US or mental obesity and Tik Tok. Yeah, seriously. I mean, again, these
174:59 Yeah, seriously. I mean, again, these these uh these parallels between the
175:02 these uh these parallels between the physical and the cognitive, right? You
175:04 physical and the cognitive, right? You know, it's I mean uh there's a
175:06 know, it's I mean uh there's a incredible moment in the the Bad Men
175:08 incredible moment in the the Bad Men series where they bring a a um a vending
175:11 series where they bring a a um a vending machine into the office and suddenly,
175:13 machine into the office and suddenly, you know, like people are eating at work
175:14 you know, like people are eating at work before they would leave to to go eat. No
175:16 before they would leave to to go eat. No one was eating at their desk, right? I
175:19 one was eating at their desk, right? I remember uh when I was a postocck no
175:20 remember uh when I was a postocck no excuse me when I was a graduate student
175:22 excuse me when I was a graduate student so this would be 2000 to 2004 when I was
175:25 so this would be 2000 to 2004 when I was doing my PhD we had a German postoc come
175:28 doing my PhD we had a German postoc come from overseas and um and he was just
175:32 from overseas and um and he was just blown away that people would take their
175:35 blown away that people would take their coffee in their car now you hear this
175:38 coffee in their car now you hear this you're like of course he was like this
175:40 you're like of course he was like this is crazy like you would go to the cafe
175:41 is crazy like you would go to the cafe you would drink your coffee or you would
175:42 you would drink your coffee or you would make a coffee at work after lunch and
175:44 make a coffee at work after lunch and then drink it in the lunchroom and then
175:46 then drink it in the lunchroom and then go back to your bench and But everyone's
175:49 go back to your bench and But everyone's walking around. He's like, "Everyone's
175:50 walking around. He's like, "Everyone's walking around with their coffee all the
175:51 walking around with their coffee all the time." Like, "What's going on here?" You
175:53 time." Like, "What's going on here?" You know, now he's a professor up at the
175:55 know, now he's a professor up at the University of Oregon. I bet you he uh he
175:57 University of Oregon. I bet you he uh he carries his coffee around. Yeah. He's
175:59 carries his coffee around. Yeah. He's been here a while. But um he was like,
176:01 been here a while. But um he was like, "This is crazy." Yeah. Like people carry
176:03 "This is crazy." Yeah. Like people carry their drinks around, you know, and now
176:05 their drinks around, you know, and now you'd be uh you'd be hardressed to find
176:07 you'd be uh you'd be hardressed to find someone not carrying their coffee out of
176:09 someone not carrying their coffee out of a coffee shop. Most it's it's more like
176:11 a coffee shop. Most it's it's more like a like a fast food restaurant. You're
176:13 a like a fast food restaurant. You're trying to get people in and out as fast
176:14 trying to get people in and out as fast as possible. Yeah. and and snacking in
176:16 as possible. Yeah. and and snacking in general, just food, eating food in all
176:18 general, just food, eating food in all sorts of situations, too, I think, is is
176:20 sorts of situations, too, I think, is is relatively new. I mean, if we were
176:22 relatively new. I mean, if we were getting more productive and there was
176:24 getting more productive and there was more incredible creative work, I'd say,
176:26 more incredible creative work, I'd say, okay, fine. Like, it's all in service to
176:28 okay, fine. Like, it's all in service to something else. But once again, we land
176:30 something else. But once again, we land ourselves in the in the landscape of
176:32 ourselves in the in the landscape of neuroscience where it's one circuit. So,
176:35 neuroscience where it's one circuit. So, um I don't believe how you do one thing
176:36 um I don't believe how you do one thing is how you do everything. Otherwise,
176:38 is how you do everything. Otherwise, based on my strawberry hole example
176:39 based on my strawberry hole example earlier, like I'm really in trouble.
176:41 earlier, like I'm really in trouble. Yeah. But I believe that we have areas
176:43 Yeah. But I believe that we have areas of life where we are
176:45 of life where we are a little bit uh less regimented in
176:47 a little bit uh less regimented in others where we're even just like
176:49 others where we're even just like outright neurotic. But I do think that
176:53 outright neurotic. But I do think that once we start to see these patterns and
176:54 once we start to see these patterns and where they are, um hopefully it helps
176:57 where they are, um hopefully it helps people navigate better. Uh I mean, I
176:59 people navigate better. Uh I mean, I think the way you described they're
177:00 think the way you described they're making the the the the
177:02 making the the the the slopes on the that narrow trail very
177:05 slopes on the that narrow trail very like steeper and steeper. It's getting
177:07 like steeper and steeper. It's getting more perilous to be a human. Yeah. It's
177:09 more perilous to be a human. Yeah. It's getting riskier, harder despite these
177:12 getting riskier, harder despite these conveniences. And it's it's no
177:14 conveniences. And it's it's no coincidence. It's it's because of the
177:15 coincidence. It's it's because of the conveniences. Yeah. And I think too one
177:17 conveniences. Yeah. And I think too one of the issues is we face is that a lot
177:20 of the issues is we face is that a lot of this is is all technologically
177:22 of this is is all technologically driven. Um but one of the issues becomes
177:25 driven. Um but one of the issues becomes that um it's becoming harder and harder
177:28 that um it's becoming harder and harder than ever to opt out of the technology.
177:31 than ever to opt out of the technology. So I'll give you an example is I have
177:33 So I'll give you an example is I have this uh uncle and um he's old school
177:37 this uh uncle and um he's old school railroad worker, not a big fan of
177:40 railroad worker, not a big fan of people. does best when he's in his 1960s
177:44 people. does best when he's in his 1960s bus up in the mountains just alone.
177:46 bus up in the mountains just alone. Awesome. Awesome dude. Far out. Um he
177:50 Awesome. Awesome dude. Far out. Um he was totally anti- getting a smartphone.
177:51 was totally anti- getting a smartphone. He's like, "No, I'm not getting a damn
177:53 He's like, "No, I'm not getting a damn smartphone." Like, "No, no way." Well,
177:55 smartphone." Like, "No, no way." Well, now that guy can't even get on a plane
177:57 now that guy can't even get on a plane if he wanted to without a smartphone,
177:59 if he wanted to without a smartphone, right? So, like there's all these things
178:00 right? So, like there's all these things in life that you normal you basically
178:03 in life that you normal you basically have to do to function that run through
178:06 have to do to function that run through a smartphone. And by the way, the
178:07 a smartphone. And by the way, the smartphone is the thing that is making
178:09 smartphone is the thing that is making you crazy. So you can't even opt out of
178:11 you crazy. So you can't even opt out of the technology. And that's where it
178:13 the technology. And that's where it starts to get scary. One thing that I've
178:16 starts to get scary. One thing that I've done that's been very helpful for me is
178:17 done that's been very helpful for me is I put social media. So Instagram and X
178:21 I put social media. So Instagram and X on a on an old phone. That's smart. So
178:24 on a on an old phone. That's smart. So if people send me something like if you
178:26 if people send me something like if you were to send me a clip on Instagram, I
178:27 were to send me a clip on Instagram, I can't on my normal phone. I I can't look
178:29 can't on my normal phone. I I can't look at it. I mean, I suppose you can go in
178:30 at it. I mean, I suppose you can go in through the the annoying thing where you
178:32 through the the annoying thing where you have to cancel out some windows, but I
178:33 have to cancel out some windows, but I just don't do it. And by the end of the
178:35 just don't do it. And by the end of the day, no one writes to me and goes, "What
178:37 day, no one writes to me and goes, "What do you think of that thing I sent you?"
178:38 do you think of that thing I sent you?" you know. So, um, so I make very
178:41 you know. So, um, so I make very designated time that I'm on social media
178:43 designated time that I'm on social media and then, you know, I don't access it
178:46 and then, you know, I don't access it elsewhere. But it is tough. I we have
178:48 elsewhere. But it is tough. I we have the fact that we have to set up these
178:49 the fact that we have to set up these barriers. Yeah. But you're doing
178:52 barriers. Yeah. But you're doing incredible work. I I must say I I think
178:54 incredible work. I I must say I I think of you as a researcher even though
178:56 of you as a researcher even though you're a writer. you research things in
178:58 you're a writer. you research things in depth uh for your writing and uh it's
179:02 depth uh for your writing and uh it's clear you put so much care and time and
179:04 clear you put so much care and time and thought into your craft and I've loved
179:07 thought into your craft and I've loved your book, The Comfort Crisis. I uh
179:10 your book, The Comfort Crisis. I uh we'll put links to all your books and to
179:12 we'll put links to all your books and to the Substack links that were uh
179:14 the Substack links that were uh discussed today. Um I'm curious what the
179:17 discussed today. Um I'm curious what the next book is. I feel like you should
179:19 next book is. I feel like you should write a book about addiction and
179:20 write a book about addiction and dopamine and you know how to overcome
179:22 dopamine and you know how to overcome it. You might have the the I I know that
179:24 it. You might have the the I I know that you have the recipe. He told us the
179:26 you have the recipe. He told us the recipe today. Um, can you share with us
179:28 recipe today. Um, can you share with us what it's about or is that like parents
179:30 what it's about or is that like parents who are expecting a kid revealing the
179:32 who are expecting a kid revealing the name before it's born? You're not
179:33 name before it's born? You're not supposed to. I think it'll be a mental
179:35 supposed to. I think it'll be a mental health extension of the comfort crisis
179:38 health extension of the comfort crisis and um a little bit of a case for
179:41 and um a little bit of a case for adventure. And you know, I think the
179:43 adventure. And you know, I think the question that I really grapple with is
179:46 question that I really grapple with is why when you look at our world sort of
179:49 why when you look at our world sort of objectively, things have never been up
179:51 objectively, things have never been up better than ever. Look at all the
179:52 better than ever. Look at all the numbers. like we're living longer. More
179:55 numbers. like we're living longer. More people know how to read. Fewer people
179:57 people know how to read. Fewer people are hungry. You can get from point A to
179:59 are hungry. You can get from point A to point B in like 30 minutes. It used to
180:01 point B in like 30 minutes. It used to take you, you know, a entire day to walk
180:03 take you, you know, a entire day to walk that. All these things. And yet people
180:06 that. All these things. And yet people are less satisfied and more neurotic
180:08 are less satisfied and more neurotic than ever. So it's like, well, why is
180:09 than ever. So it's like, well, why is that? And then what is the answer to it?
180:12 that? And then what is the answer to it? So I think the book will probably get
180:14 So I think the book will probably get into that somehow with the with the uh
180:17 into that somehow with the with the uh my long hike I just did being the
180:19 my long hike I just did being the overarching narrative and some lessons I
180:20 overarching narrative and some lessons I learned along the way. Awesome. Yeah.
180:23 learned along the way. Awesome. Yeah. Um, and let me thank you for having me
180:25 Um, and let me thank you for having me on doing the work that you're doing.
180:27 on doing the work that you're doing. You're changing a lot of lives, man. Um,
180:30 You're changing a lot of lives, man. Um, I can't tell you the number of people
180:31 I can't tell you the number of people because I I got sober when I was 28. I
180:34 because I I got sober when I was 28. I can't tell you the number of people who
180:36 can't tell you the number of people who have reached out and said, "I watched
180:38 have reached out and said, "I watched this Huberman episode and I decided to
180:41 this Huberman episode and I decided to stop drinking and my life is way
180:42 stop drinking and my life is way better." And that's like bam, that's
180:45 better." And that's like bam, that's like all happening right here. and the
180:47 like all happening right here. and the amount of people that's rippled to and
180:48 amount of people that's rippled to and changed.
180:50 changed. And not just them, because when one
180:52 And not just them, because when one person stops drinking, it's not just
180:53 person stops drinking, it's not just their life that improves. Everyone in
180:55 their life that improves. Everyone in their orbit's life improves if they
180:58 their orbit's life improves if they drink like I did. And so that's awesome.
181:01 drink like I did. And so that's awesome. And everything else you're doing is
181:02 And everything else you're doing is awesome. So, I really appreciate you
181:03 awesome. So, I really appreciate you having me, man. Thank you. Uh, I'll take
181:05 having me, man. Thank you. Uh, I'll take that in. And I want to thank you for
181:08 that in. And I want to thank you for coming here today and for uh sharing
181:10 coming here today and for uh sharing with us your knowledge and wisdom. It
181:12 with us your knowledge and wisdom. It went places I didn't anticipate. And as
181:14 went places I didn't anticipate. And as always, I learn from you. Uh, as I
181:16 always, I learn from you. Uh, as I started off today's conversation by
181:18 started off today's conversation by saying, you've completely changed my
181:19 saying, you've completely changed my life because I do things differently
181:21 life because I do things differently every single day. I look at the friction
181:24 every single day. I look at the friction points of like I don't want to do this
181:25 points of like I don't want to do this as like opportunities and I do think
181:28 as like opportunities and I do think it's made uh my life better and
181:29 it's made uh my life better and hopefully me better for the other people
181:31 hopefully me better for the other people in my life. I also curse you every day.
181:34 in my life. I also curse you every day. Decide to save this to the end. I have a
181:36 Decide to save this to the end. I have a 72lb kettlebell set in my living room.
181:39 72lb kettlebell set in my living room. And when I wake up in the morning,
181:42 And when I wake up in the morning, I pick it up and I suitcase carry it
181:44 I pick it up and I suitcase carry it back and forth once with one arm and I
181:46 back and forth once with one arm and I suitcase carry it back and forth with
181:47 suitcase carry it back and forth with the other arm and the entire time I'm
181:49 the other arm and the entire time I'm cursing you because awesome. It hurts.
181:51 cursing you because awesome. It hurts. It doesn't feel good to do first thing
181:53 It doesn't feel good to do first thing in the morning. My grip isn't as strong
181:55 in the morning. My grip isn't as strong as it is in the midm morning after a cup
181:57 as it is in the midm morning after a cup of coffee. And um I have this little
181:59 of coffee. And um I have this little forearm twinge thing. But I told myself
182:01 forearm twinge thing. But I told myself if I do this every single day, then I'll
182:04 if I do this every single day, then I'll be able to um continue to do it the rest
182:06 be able to um continue to do it the rest of my life. It'll probably make me live
182:08 of my life. It'll probably make me live longer. And that's a that's a uh Michael
182:11 longer. And that's a that's a uh Michael Easter um curse cursing carry process
182:15 Easter um curse cursing carry process done every single day. So you've changed
182:17 done every single day. So you've changed my life for the better in uh some
182:19 my life for the better in uh some painful ways that pay off certainly with
182:21 painful ways that pay off certainly with less pain down the road um and certainly
182:23 less pain down the road um and certainly with more meaning. So really want to
182:25 with more meaning. So really want to thank you for everything you're doing.
182:26 thank you for everything you're doing. You put so much intention and heart into
182:28 You put so much intention and heart into what you're doing. And thanks also for
182:29 what you're doing. And thanks also for sharing a bit about um
182:32 sharing a bit about um addiction, about the value of going to
182:35 addiction, about the value of going to meetings and um and the landscape that
182:38 meetings and um and the landscape that we're all facing out there. It's not
182:40 we're all facing out there. It's not easy, but you're making it better. I
182:41 easy, but you're making it better. I appreciate it. I'll make you a deal. I'm
182:43 appreciate it. I'll make you a deal. I'm going to do the same thing every
182:44 going to do the same thing every morning. I'm going to get my 72 pound
182:47 morning. I'm going to get my 72 pound kettle bell and I'm going to join you in
182:49 kettle bell and I'm going to join you in those morning walks and then I will be
182:50 those morning walks and then I will be cursing your name from now on. So, it'll
182:53 cursing your name from now on. So, it'll be fair. Perfect. Appreciate you. Come
182:56 be fair. Perfect. Appreciate you. Come back again. Yeah. Thanks, man. Thank you
182:57 back again. Yeah. Thanks, man. Thank you for joining me for today's discussion
182:59 for joining me for today's discussion with Michael Easter. To learn more about
183:01 with Michael Easter. To learn more about his work, his books, and to find links
183:03 his work, his books, and to find links to the Substack that he mentions
183:04 to the Substack that he mentions throughout today's episode, please see
183:06 throughout today's episode, please see the show note captions. Michael has
183:08 the show note captions. Michael has generously made the Substack articles
183:09 generously made the Substack articles mentioned during today's episode
183:11 mentioned during today's episode available to Huberman Lab podcast
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183:51 in the comment section on YouTube. I do read all the comments. For those of you
183:52 read all the comments. For those of you that haven't heard, I have a new book
183:54 that haven't heard, I have a new book coming out. It's my very first book.
183:56 coming out. It's my very first book. It's entitled Protocols: An Operating
183:58 It's entitled Protocols: An Operating Manual for the Human Body. This is a
184:00 Manual for the Human Body. This is a book that I've been working on for more
184:01 book that I've been working on for more than 5 years, and that's based on more
184:03 than 5 years, and that's based on more than 30 years of research and
184:05 than 30 years of research and experience. And it covers protocols for
184:07 experience. And it covers protocols for everything from sleep to exercise to
184:10 everything from sleep to exercise to stress control protocols related to
184:12 stress control protocols related to focus and motivation. And of course, I
184:15 focus and motivation. And of course, I provide the scientific substantiation
184:17 provide the scientific substantiation for the protocols that are included. The
184:19 for the protocols that are included. The book is now available by pre-sale at
184:21 book is now available by pre-sale at protocolsbook.com.
184:23 protocolsbook.com. There you can find links to various
184:25 There you can find links to various vendors. You can pick the one that you
184:26 vendors. You can pick the one that you like best. Again, the book is called
184:28 like best. Again, the book is called Protocols, an operating manual for the
184:31 Protocols, an operating manual for the human body. And if you're not already
184:32 human body. And if you're not already following me on social media, I am
184:34 following me on social media, I am Huberman Lab on all social media
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184:41 Threads, Facebook, and LinkedIn. And on all those platforms, I discuss science
184:42 all those platforms, I discuss science and science related tools, some of which
184:44 and science related tools, some of which overlaps with the content of the
184:46 overlaps with the content of the Huberman Lab podcast, but much of which
184:47 Huberman Lab podcast, but much of which is distinct from the information on the
184:49 is distinct from the information on the Huberman Lab podcast. Again, it's
184:51 Huberman Lab podcast. Again, it's Hubberman Lab on all social media
184:53 Hubberman Lab on all social media platforms. And if you haven't already,
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184:59 newsletter is a zerorost monthly newsletter that includes podcast
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185:02 summaries as well as what we call protocols in the form of one to
185:04 protocols in the form of one to three-page PDFs that cover everything
185:06 three-page PDFs that cover everything from how to optimize your sleep, how to
185:08 from how to optimize your sleep, how to optimize dopamine, deliberate cold
185:10 optimize dopamine, deliberate cold exposure. We have a foundational fitness
185:12 exposure. We have a foundational fitness protocol that covers cardiovascular
185:14 protocol that covers cardiovascular training and resistance training. All of
185:16 training and resistance training. All of that is available completely zero cost.
185:18 that is available completely zero cost. You simply go to hubmanlab.com, go to
185:20 You simply go to hubmanlab.com, go to the menu tab in the top right corner,
185:22 the menu tab in the top right corner, scroll down to newsletter, and enter
185:23 scroll down to newsletter, and enter your email. And I should emphasize that
185:25 your email. And I should emphasize that we do not share your email with anybody.
185:27 we do not share your email with anybody. Thank you once again for joining me for
185:29 Thank you once again for joining me for today's discussion with Michael Easter.
185:31 today's discussion with Michael Easter. And last, but certainly not least, thank
185:33 And last, but certainly not least, thank you for your interest in science.
