0:01 What is the combined revenue of all of
0:02 your projects?
0:03 >> It's around 3 million.
0:04 >> That's incredible.
0:07 >> It runs on autopilot. SEO bot is doing 1
0:09 million AR. It has been doubling month
0:13 over month, 110k a month. Little tools
0:15 are easy to build in the age of vibe
0:17 coding. You can build them in one
0:19 evening. Pretty cool hack. I will show
0:21 you. It's not a billion dollar idea, but
0:23 if you're a regular person and you want
0:25 to build a million-doll business, we
0:27 have so many lowhanging fruits. A
0:28 >> this is so good. It's just right in
0:30 front of our nose. So, if people say, "I
0:31 don't have an audience." Doesn't matter.
0:34 That's not an excuse. What is your go-to
0:35 tech stack for building all of these tools?
0:40 If you're like me and find yourself
0:42 bouncing around from idea to idea and
0:44 testing all kinds of different concepts,
0:46 this episode is for you. I found this
0:48 guy on Twitter named John. He has 24
0:51 different projects, mostly websites, and
0:53 they make him $3 million a year of
0:55 annual recurring revenue. And you know
0:57 what? Almost all of the things that he's
0:59 built or talks about can be vibecoded
1:01 with common AI tools that I talk about
1:03 on this podcast all the time. So, we get
1:05 super nitty-gritty. He gets very
1:06 specific on how to find good business
1:09 ideas, how to validate good business
1:11 ideas, how to launch them, and how to
1:13 grow them. What are his favorite AI
1:15 tools to use? How does he build agents?
1:16 How does he build agents for himself and
1:18 then sell those agents to other people?
1:20 You don't need employees. You don't need
1:21 to be a software engineer. You just need
1:23 to listen to this episode. Please enjoy.
1:26 You have 24 different products slash
1:28 projects running right now and you're
1:30 trying to automate as much of it as possible.
1:30 possible.
1:33 >> Yeah. Yeah. when I saw AI happening in
1:37 2021 actually pretty early before most
1:39 of the people I started automating some
1:42 of the things already with GPT2 and GPT3
1:45 and then in 2022 when they launched 3.5
1:48 I think I kind of felt that you know the
1:50 the traction they have on model
1:53 improvements is so great that I should
1:56 bet everything on AI becoming really
1:58 really strong. So, and then I thought
2:00 like if that's the case, if that becomes
2:04 the future, then I should bootstrap and
2:06 I should run smaller companies and I
2:09 should create suffering for myself by
2:12 not having people to delegate to so that
2:14 I have to do everything by myself from
2:17 accounting to paperwork to design,
2:19 development, growth, marketing,
2:20 everything I had to do by myself because
2:22 in the past I would just hire people for
2:25 that and now I did by myself and I
2:29 learned all those crafts and I saw the
2:32 paints and I had this ideas for 2080
2:36 rule like what can I do like 20% of the
2:39 work that gives 80% of the result and I
2:42 automated that with AI starting with
2:44 operations then with growth then with
2:47 development and with with everything. So
2:50 that was kind of my my story and now I'm
2:52 I'm here with a lot of agents and I use
2:54 agents to grow my other agents. So it's
2:57 kind of the loop happening. So these 24
2:59 things, are they some of them agents
3:01 that work for you and then it's also
3:03 agents that you're reselling to others
3:04 as well?
3:06 >> Well, they all start as my internal
3:09 agent and I run them for a long while so
3:11 that I'm happy with them myself and also
3:13 it's easier to run a project if you're
3:16 the only customer because you can risk
3:18 you can you know move fast and you don't
3:20 have all the users who complain. That's
3:22 why I run for a year or two or sometimes
3:25 three years internally and then once I
3:26 kind of like the the whole thing and
3:28 it's stable and I don't iterate that
3:30 much then I bring all my friends because
3:31 I have a lot of friends who are building
3:34 startups and then I launch uh publicly
3:36 for everybody to use. So eventually
3:38 everything I use internally will become
3:40 public. That's the end goal here.
3:43 >> Oh, I love it. You become, you find a
3:45 problem, you solve it for yourself, you
3:47 solve it for your friends. If it's still
3:49 surviving, then because surely some
3:51 don't make it, then you launch it to the
3:52 general public.
3:55 >> Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. It sounds easy, but
3:57 you know, it's uh the way I create
4:00 suffering for myself. It's really hard
4:02 to replicate because nobody really wants
4:05 to suffer that much. Like I have so many
4:07 transactions for example like a lot of
4:09 product and transactions and I still do
4:11 accounting myself. I hate those days
4:13 when I have to do that, but I have to do
4:15 that because then I understand whether
4:17 the product I'm building, the agent I'm
4:19 building is good enough and and I can
4:21 evaluate it and I I think whenever
4:23 somebody else comes into the game trying
4:26 to build the same thing, like they have
4:28 too much time like I don't have time at
4:31 all. So I'm I'm kind of a typical user
4:33 of the tool while the other people who
4:34 would build that thing, they would
4:36 understand accounting really well and
4:38 they would kind of uh you know have a
4:40 lot of time to click the buttons and to
4:42 use the interface and I don't have that
4:45 time. So that's why all my agents are so
4:49 simple on the surface and so complicated
4:51 under the hood because you know my
4:53 vision is that the end goal for every
4:56 agent is that I turn it on and I live it
4:59 and it just works as great employee that
5:02 self-managed agentic and it asks me
5:05 whenever it has questions and then goes
5:06 back to do the work.
5:08 >> What's an example of one of your agents
5:10 that just works perfectly but it's very
5:12 complicated under the hood? Yeah, it's
5:15 like SEO bot for example. I think that's
5:18 one of the best agents I have. So, it
5:21 runs on autopilot. Like I I even forget
5:23 sometimes that it runs for some of my
5:25 products, but then I get emails from it
5:28 where it says, you know, this week I've
5:31 done this. So, I built this articles, I
5:34 built this how-to guides, I built these
5:37 tools like mini tool. It can even build
5:40 little products that will drive SEO
5:41 traffic. Then it can also collect all
5:44 the news and then build some news
5:46 letters and things like that. So it does
5:49 a lot of the work that SEO department
5:52 would do. It can also ask me whenever
5:53 it's not confident about things. It
5:56 would ask me like I have you know list
5:58 of these things and can you help me to
6:00 pick what's the best from this list like
6:03 I have 10 items pick five and then I
6:05 pick five and then it does the rest of
6:07 the work. So it it's able to involve me
6:10 whenever it's necessary. But then when
6:12 it it learns me and it understands what
6:15 I want it eventually over time I'm not
6:18 involved at all. Like first you're
6:20 involved every day and then week and
6:22 then month and and now like know once
6:23 every quarter.
6:24 >> Well it's like training an employee
6:25 right like
6:26 >> Yeah. Exactly. Like a good employee.
6:28 >> Yeah. Are you willing to share revenue
6:30 numbers or anything like that?
6:33 >> Yeah. SEO bot is doing 1 million AR. I
6:35 think I shared that before. And
6:36 And >> crazy
6:37 >> crazy
6:38 >> it has been growing. It has been
6:41 doubling month over month before summer
6:44 and in summer uh the growth stopped. I
6:47 think it's kind of been 110k
6:50 a month during the summer and now I
6:51 think it will start growing again as September.
6:52 September.
6:54 >> Good for I think it was one of the first
6:58 agent that kind of went into being a
7:00 real agent because all the other agents,
7:02 they say they're agents, but if you go
7:04 in there, it's kind of a tool that has a
7:06 lot of AI in it and you have to sit
7:08 inside of that tool and use it. So, it's
7:11 just more convenient UX where with my
7:14 agent from the start, I went the other
7:16 way around. So, it had no buttons at
7:18 all. It was just turn on. It was a
7:20 checkbox. You put it on and it starts.
7:22 And that was the only button I had in
7:24 the first month. And then I was just
7:27 adding more because some people ask for
7:28 certain control and I don't want to lose
7:32 out on agencies and pro users and they
7:35 want more control. But I'm kind of not
7:37 really into it. I think I in long term I
7:39 believe that people don't want that much
7:41 control. And the reason they want that
7:44 much control now is that they have too
7:46 much time. Like if you're an employee in
7:48 a company and you have eight hours a day
7:51 to do SEO only, you have a lot of time
7:53 and you don't want to have a tool that
7:55 just has one button you turn it on and
7:57 what do you do then? Right.
7:58 >> It doesn't appear like you're adding
8:00 enough value.
8:02 >> Exactly. Exactly. But in fact, you're
8:04 adding value because you have an
8:06 experience and you can help the tool
8:08 once in a while and know those little
8:11 moderations will be crucial because it's
8:13 uh like the quality of the ideas wins
8:16 over the quantity in this case but but
8:18 people are not ready for that yet and uh
8:21 I I took a risk and I went into that
8:23 early and a lot of people didn't believe
8:25 that such interface will work but it
8:27 worked really well and I think it's one
8:30 of the well-known agents. That's
8:32 amazing. What What is the combined
8:33 revenue of all of your projects?
8:35 >> It's around three million.
8:37 >> That's incredible. I mean, the 8020 rule
8:38 is alive and well even. And you can't
8:40 get rid of the 8020 rule, right? It's everywhere.
8:41 everywhere.
8:43 >> Yeah. Like three products do most of the
8:45 revenue and then everything else brings
8:48 the rest. But I I think it's it's
8:50 possible to grow the rest too. But, you
8:53 know, I'm I'm not doing these things in
8:54 a typical way where I want to just
8:56 maximize the revenue or I want to find
8:59 the winner and put all my effort into
9:00 the winner because that's what a lot of
9:02 people do who run a lot of startups,
9:04 >> right? That's not my game.
9:06 >> Fun fact, 80% of the people that watch
9:08 my YouTube videos are not subscribed to
9:09 me. And most of them think they are.
9:11 They see them in the feed, but they're
9:12 not subscribed to me. So, please, it'll
9:13 take half a second, just click
9:15 subscribe, and it would mean a ton to
9:18 me. My game is to build all these agents
9:21 that play together and then since I have
9:23 them all I can connect them and that's
9:26 also cool right because now suddenly
9:29 agents one agent like I have SEO bot and
9:30 I have another agent that's called
9:34 Rapify and Rapify builds little tools
9:38 it's like vibe coding tool and SEO bot
9:41 can call Rapify and ask it to build a
9:44 tool and send it back. So now I have one
9:46 agent you know asking the other like
9:49 imagine in your office you have SEO
9:50 marketer and then you have developer and
9:52 it come one comes to the other and asks
9:56 for the for help and I have that across
9:57 all my agents and that's why I'm not
10:00 hurrying up in growing them. I rather
10:02 want to have them all running like at
10:06 100 maybe a thousand customers so that I
10:08 have enough people to test to ask
10:10 questions and to AB test things but not
10:12 more because when it's more it's a
10:14 hustle it's a lot of support a lot of
10:18 legacy to support so that's my game now
10:20 >> and you're able to cross-ell across all
10:22 of your projects right like do you do a
10:23 lot of that
10:25 >> yeah yeah I think that's sometimes
10:27 that's half of my sales every month >> wow
10:28 >> wow
10:30 >> for new users For the new users, half of
10:33 them come from one tool to the other.
10:35 That's why when I land one user in any
10:37 of my tool, like I have some tools that
10:39 are making like 1K a month, like very
10:42 small tools, but at the same time they
10:44 are so cheap and they have trial and
10:46 people enter those tools and they might
10:49 even cancel that tool but you know move
10:52 over to the other tools and it's very
10:55 rare when people leave my universe. So
10:57 if they enter they once you use one tool
10:59 the other tool the third tool it's
11:01 really hard to leave because it's uh
11:02 it's not locking you but it's convenient.
11:03 convenient. >> Yeah.
11:03 >> Yeah.
11:05 >> And if you're busy it's really convenient.
11:06 convenient.
11:08 >> The 1K a month Mr. you get from one of
11:10 your small projects that could be
11:12 contributing another 3K a month MR in
11:15 another project because or across seven
11:17 other projects. Right.
11:19 >> Yeah. Yeah. That that's why I have so
11:21 many directories and a lot of people
11:23 think like why do I build directories?
11:25 It's not that much money there. Like
11:27 most of my directories are making 1K a
11:29 month. Some make 10K, but most of make
11:34 just 1K. I think like directories are so
11:36 good at driving traffic from people who
11:38 would otherwise not land on your website.
11:39 website.
11:41 >> Now, with your SEO business, you know,
11:42 one of the hard parts about SEO, either
11:45 doing it for yourself or selling an SEO
11:47 SAS product, is how long it can often
11:49 take to work. How do you manage churn in
11:51 that business when people have, you
11:53 know, they they want immediate results
11:55 and that's just not common in SEO? Have
11:56 you been able to overcome that? And if
11:57 so, how?
11:59 >> Well, it's hard, of course, because a
12:01 lot of people have expectations and then
12:04 they see somebody on the internet with a
12:06 story that they started yesterday and
12:07 now they have traffic and they expect
12:10 the same. But I think in my case I'm
12:12 trying to build my products in a way
12:15 that they also educate people on what to
12:17 expect and what is this because most
12:19 people who use my products are not
12:21 professionals like professionals usually
12:23 go for more complicated products because
12:25 they want to spend their time by using
12:27 them and my products are for busy
12:29 founders. Most of my customers are
12:33 founders who are good at everything a
12:35 little bit, right? And and I have this
12:38 system of emails where I take some
12:41 little KPIs, little like for example for
12:45 SEO articles, I send the data every week
12:48 on what has been done and maybe there's
12:50 some views because you don't get clicks
12:51 right away, but you get views right
12:53 away, right? Or not right away, but
12:54 within a week usually you get views and
12:56 I send the views and then I send the
12:58 clicks. there's stuff to send to the
13:00 user to show that things are happening
13:02 and that usually works because also it's
13:04 about the price. If you go for the
13:06 agency, you pay like 5K or something
13:09 like that and and it's two months after
13:10 and you don't see the traffic and you
13:12 you feel like you've been scammed and in
13:15 this case it costs like $20 a month and
13:17 it's not like you you're expecting an
13:19 instant result for that money.
13:21 >> Oh man, that's so good. How long are
13:24 your customers taking to see SEO results
13:26 with your product? It's from weeks to
13:30 month like I think Google has been
13:33 changing a lot in their algorithm. So
13:36 like three years ago you would never see
13:38 any traffic on your article until like
13:40 two months maybe sometimes three months
13:42 and now I think the same goes for weeks.
13:46 So now in weeks you can see views and
13:48 some clicks like two three weeks.
13:51 >> What is your go-to tech stack for
13:52 building all of these tools?
13:54 >> I use a lot of the tools. So my main
13:57 tool that I use for prototyping is
14:01 lovable or other like bolt or cursor or
14:03 pinser but lovable is my favorite I
14:06 think for vibe coding and I use lovable
14:09 for prototyping and often I use it to
14:11 experiment with different ways of
14:13 building the UI for this product for
14:16 example once I move past the prototype I
14:19 use my own AI coding tool called Morse X
14:21 because that's where I go for serious
14:23 stuff where the product becomes more
14:25 complicated. So it's like two tools. So
14:28 first one for MVPs, the other one is for
14:29 full products.
14:31 >> What about for automations and other
14:33 stuff? You like make
14:37 >> I use make, I use Zapier and I use Lindy
14:40 AI. So I use all three.
14:41 >> All right. We're like getting I'm like
14:43 so intrigued by what you're doing. We
14:46 had talked John about you showing us how
14:49 you find ideas, how you build ideas, and
14:51 how you grow ideas, right?
14:53 >> Yeah. Why don't we get into that? All
14:57 right, I will just share my screen for
15:00 that. Yeah. So, for the ideas, I have
15:02 this framework that I kind of made for
15:04 myself and it was pretty popular in the
15:06 internet because I think it's very
15:09 simple. I think the best ideas are the
15:12 ideas that scratch your own itch. So,
15:14 basically, you're doing a job and then
15:16 you have a problem at the job and you
15:17 want to solve that and you come up with
15:19 ideas for that for solution for that
15:21 problem. That's what I usually do. 99%
15:24 of my ideas are born that way. And then
15:27 you have some other options for finding
15:29 ideas. And usually my second option is
15:31 to see that people are asking for
15:34 something and then see whether a lot of
15:37 people ask for it and then build that.
15:40 So I will just show how I do both. And
15:41 for example,
15:42 >> oh this is so good.
15:45 >> Like if I want to figure out what what
15:48 people are asking, I do pretty cool
15:51 hack. I will show you. So I go to Google
15:57 and I do this. So website builder that
16:00 so you do this and you see like you code
16:02 that doesn't use AI that accept payments
16:05 that export HTML like that's interesting
16:06 like some people want that and I
16:08 actually know a guy who built a website
16:11 builder that can do that it became big.
16:14 So, and you can do further like website
16:18 builder for and now we see the audience.
16:21 It can be small business, photographers,
16:22 artists. That's interesting.
16:24 >> And we're assuming this is ranked by
16:26 like search volume, right?
16:28 >> Oh, yeah. Exactly. And and if you see it
16:30 here, it means a lot of people search
16:32 for it. But, you know, you have the next
16:34 step here where you can take this into
16:38 the uh keyword research and validate.
16:39 For example, website builder for
16:42 artists. And now we can go into the
16:46 keyword research and and we can see how
16:49 much traffic is going there. Yeah. So
16:52 here we see it's around 10k visitors a
16:54 month which is not a lot. But if you
16:57 look further you have this one, you have
17:00 this one. So you have a lot of requests
17:02 which are also kind of for the same
17:04 thing and they're also at each 10k 10k
17:08 10k. So in total it's probably 100k now.
17:10 So it's pretty good traffic. Yeah.
17:13 >> And also you can see where exactly
17:15 people search for and you can sort them
17:17 based on the monthly searches and now
17:19 you see how people frame it because
17:21 that's also important and you can see
17:23 that they that they frame it in basic
17:25 way. So website builder for artists. So
17:28 now you can probably come with a domain
17:30 idea which could be in this case it's
17:32 probably too long like website builders
17:34 for artist. But in in often cases
17:37 >> you could just find a keyword that turns
17:39 into the idea like I have this
17:41 I've been playing with the other keyword
17:45 now and it's tux heaven. So I just
17:47 tested it now before this call and it's
17:50 a it's like 100k searches. It's a lot of
17:52 searches. It's low competition. It means
17:55 that people don't really place ads for
17:56 these keywords
17:57 >> and that's a that's a very high value
18:00 keyword, right? Yeah. Wealthy people are
18:01 are searching that keyword.
18:04 >> Yeah. Like people are willing to save
18:07 money. It means that you can earn money
18:08 where others are trying to save money,
18:11 right? And then you can uh go and test
18:14 this all the ideas here. So you first
18:19 find them on Google and then you see
18:22 you make a list. So I usually play with
18:24 it for an hour. I make a list in the
18:28 Excel for like 50 or 60 ideas and then I
18:30 bring them back into the keyword
18:31 research tool and then I see their
18:33 traffic and at the end you have a
18:35 picture what you should work on because
18:37 if you don't do that
18:39 >> then you're kind of in the dark and you
18:41 have no idea.
18:42 >> Yeah, you're guessing. And the problem
18:46 with guessing is that it's like in in
18:48 stock market world whenever you guess
18:50 usually you're doing something wrong
18:52 because that's how our mind works. like
18:55 the intuition never helps. In this case,
18:56 I would take this a step further, John.
18:58 I would like So, what if you're only
19:00 listening to this, what we're looking at
19:02 is just the autocomplete on google.com
19:05 website builder for and from the top to
19:07 bottom, it goes small business, free,
19:08 photographers, portfolio, artist,
19:10 nonprofits. So, you can go to the
19:13 keyword tool. In the artist example,
19:15 there were 92 keywords that had over
19:18 100,000 searches per month. Cool. I
19:20 would do that for like the top 10, small
19:22 business, artist, whatever. And then I
19:24 would go to Perplexity and I would have
19:26 a prompt that says all I want to know I
19:28 want a grid. I want to know how many
19:30 website builders are there that
19:32 specialize in being for artists. Like
19:35 not a Squarespace, not a Wix. It needs
19:37 to be a niche website builder that is
19:38 for artists. I need to know how many
19:40 there are. And then on the second
19:43 column, I need to see like what's their
19:45 estimated monthly traffic using similar
19:48 web or something else. Right? run a deep
19:50 research prompt on all 10 of those
19:52 website builder four X Y or Z. You get a
19:54 table, you put it in Google Sheets and
19:56 then you take the search volume and how
19:58 competitive it is and put it in columns
20:01 C and D and then you can clearly see not
20:04 only where is the search volume but how
20:05 much demand is there for each and then
20:07 you can easily sort and say oh
20:09 >> yeah this one has the most demand and
20:11 the least supply. I'm going to build here.
20:12 here.
20:14 >> Yeah. And the thing here is that it's
20:16 very often
20:20 such ideas are not really heavily
20:22 targeted by anyone because it's a small
20:25 niche and if you're a VC back company
20:28 it's it's too little for you like it's
20:30 not a billion dollar idea right but if
20:32 you're regular person and you want to
20:35 build a million dollar business that's
20:37 on of the market right and that's why
20:40 like we are now living in a world where
20:42 where we have so many lowhanging fruits
20:45 like that because the VC back world
20:48 surprisingly is all going after the same
20:51 ideas because they have to measure the
20:54 market and and that's super important
20:56 and all all these other ideas are just
20:58 unserved and there are a lot of them and
21:01 and I see now a huge movement where you
21:04 know solarreneurs and indie makers and
21:06 and a lot of the people are just you
21:07 know targeting this
21:10 >> this is so good it's like it's just
21:11 right in front of our nose it's just
21:13 google.com but it's
21:15 >> it's like a prompt. It's like a Google
21:17 prompt, right? And looking at it the
21:18 right way.
21:22 >> Yeah. And so I do that and uh my next
21:25 step is usually to validate again. So
21:27 basically when I build something I'm
21:28 trying to convince myself that I
21:30 shouldn't build it like you should, you
21:32 know, behave that way because if you try to
21:32 to
21:34 >> like a negative bias just to be
21:37 >> Exactly. Yeah. If you're in love with
21:39 your idea, then you will do the
21:41 opposite. Whenever you see the data, you
21:44 will, you know, interpret the data in a
21:45 in a wrong way. You will think that,
21:47 well, it's not that bad. It's not that bad.
21:47 bad. >> Yeah.
21:48 >> Yeah.
21:50 >> Yeah. So, but you should try to kill
21:51 your idea because there are so many
21:54 ideas. You rather kill, you know, 20 of
21:56 them and 21 works out and then you don't
21:58 waste time building it, right? Because
22:00 building an idea takes a lot of time. So
22:04 then my next step is usually I go to my
22:06 unicorn platform and you can go into any
22:09 other vibe coding tool but I recommend
22:14 to use like website builders for
22:16 websites rather than vibe coding tools
22:18 because the website builders are made
22:22 for landing pages and they have good SEO
22:25 optimization and things like that. So go
22:28 for framer, unicorn,
22:31 web flow. Don't go for lovable or bald
22:33 or others for this because they are made
22:36 for apps, right? For where you have the
22:38 user login and things like that because
22:40 people have mixed those things and I
22:42 think this is really important like you
22:44 have landing pages and you have your web
22:47 app and for landing pages use landing
22:48 page builder, >> right?
22:49 >> right?
22:51 >> So I usually go here and then I kind of
22:53 pick a weight list. So because I haven't
22:56 built a product yet, so I just pick a
22:58 weight simple weight list. For example,
23:03 this one and then I go for create and
23:07 then I say website builder for
23:10 this. Yeah. And it will just build a
23:13 little landing page with a weight list
23:17 now. Yeah. It has to be super simple.
23:19 Like your goal here is to just see
23:21 whether anyone is willing to put their
23:24 name or like here put phone number. I
23:28 don't need that. So I just remove it.
23:31 Yeah, name and email is an off for me.
23:34 So that's it. So now I have my landing
23:38 page. Show it to potential customers and
23:40 see normally don't want to join weight
23:44 lists because it's silly, right? But
23:47 still if you show it to 20 people at
23:49 least one person would join because some
23:52 people are curious and they want to get
23:54 to know about this once you launch. So
23:56 it's it still works like you're going to
23:58 lose a lot of the people who otherwise
24:01 would sign up if you had the product.
24:03 But right now your goal is to understand
24:06 whether people are willing to put any
24:09 effort into consuming your product and
24:11 this is good enough. Okay. So, you're
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25:15 logo, not some clip art. So I share this
25:20 on social media, on Reddit, on replies.
25:23 So I search on social media for people
25:24 asking about this question.
25:27 >> Yeah. Yeah. Or sometimes not even asking
25:28 about the question. Like sometimes you
25:31 you can be a bit more spummy if you
25:33 can't find the the actual questions. You
25:36 can find the right people. So like in
25:38 this case, these are musicians and you
25:41 you can just search for anything around
25:43 musicians and software. Doesn't have to
25:46 be the website builder. Can be something
25:48 else, right? You can search for that and
25:50 then you can replay the year and it's
25:52 not exactly on point, but it's not that
25:55 far. It works pretty well if you do like
25:57 20 or 30 replies like that and then you
26:00 do DMs to the same people and then you
26:02 maybe find their emails and send cold
26:04 emails. So eventually if you do 100
26:08 actions towards a cold outreach and cold
26:12 replies, you will see either zero
26:15 signups for your weight list and if it's
26:18 zero it's a good sign. It means that you
26:21 know it's it's not that important of a
26:23 problem for people. So they they don't
26:24 care that much.
26:25 >> That's good. Yeah. If you get zero or if
26:27 you get 100, it's good because you're
26:28 learning and you don't want to waste
26:30 time on a project that nobody wants.
26:32 >> Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. But if there's one
26:35 or 10 or five, then you have an answer.
26:36 Like if it's 10, then it means people
26:39 really want it. And sometimes you
26:41 actually uh hit the right spot and a lot
26:43 of people sign up because that doesn't
26:45 exist and people all wanted it
26:47 >> and then they sign up. I had that.
26:48 >> I was going to ask you, do you have any
26:50 examples of that happening to you?
26:53 >> Yeah. Uh so I had a case with when I
26:57 built dev hunt so dev hunt isn't similar
27:01 to product hunt but for dev tools and I
27:04 just shared a tweet where I said that I
27:08 want to build this new launchpad only
27:10 for developers because product hunt
27:12 doesn't serve developers as it serves
27:15 the marketers and if 100 people signed
27:18 up for this I will build it.
27:20 >> Mhm. And I had 100 people signing up and
27:23 people were actually sharing the link to
27:25 their friends telling them, "Hey, come
27:27 help me for this.
27:28 >> They wanted to help you because they
27:29 wanted to use it."
27:31 >> They want to reach the 100 mark so that
27:34 I build it. Right. So they wanted to
27:36 help themselves actually, not me. Yeah. >> And
27:37 >> And >> right
27:37 >> right
27:41 >> the best thing here, right? So and I do
27:43 that every time. So basically all my
27:45 products even before I build them for
27:47 myself, I still kind of test them on
27:50 public using know this meth methods
27:51 because I know I'm not building
27:54 something that I will never be able to
27:55 launch to the public
27:57 >> and it works really well. So I do it
28:00 through social media and I'm I kind of
28:01 found a way to do it through social
28:03 media even before I had followers. Now I
28:05 have a lot of followers but in the past
28:07 I had almost none and I still found a
28:09 way because the the interesting stuff
28:11 about social media is that right now
28:13 they don't really respect the follower
28:16 count count as it did in the past.
28:18 >> So if your content is interesting they
28:20 will show it to a few people and if they
28:22 find it interesting they will show it to
28:23 more people and eventually it can blow
28:26 up even without followers. So you should
28:27 try that. You should always try that and
28:29 and you should test you should test it
28:32 for messages on your kind of launch
28:35 tweet. But if if that doesn't work, you
28:38 can also do ads. You can you know send
28:42 paid traffic to your tool and paid
28:45 traffic works too sometimes. So I in the
28:47 past I was using Google and Meta for
28:50 that but you know as with everything
28:52 else I end up building my own tool for
28:55 that that kind of does it for me. Has
28:57 there ever been a time when all of your
28:59 indicators were shouting, "Yes, yes,
29:01 launch this and then you did this
29:03 research stage or you actually launched
29:05 it and it just did not hit and if so,
29:07 why do you think that happened?"
29:10 >> No, that never happened really.
29:11 >> I had the opposite. I had the opposite
29:14 where everything said that the idea is
29:17 bad. Like there were no signups and all
29:19 my friends were saying that this is a
29:23 bad idea. But when I launched it worked
29:28 out. So I had the opposite. But if I get
29:30 the validation through this methods I
29:33 just shown, I go for the last step.
29:34 Actually there's one one more step
29:38 that's just to make sure 100% is going
29:43 to work. I ask for pre bookings. So I
29:46 give people 70% or 90% discount if they
29:51 buy now. And surprisingly I had cases
29:53 where a lot of people signed up for a
29:55 tool. A lot of people but nobody wanted
29:58 to pay because you know why it happens?
30:01 It happens because sometimes you hit
30:03 certain audience
30:05 for example students. They would be
30:08 signing up for a thing and you would
30:10 think, "Wow, a lot of people, thousands
30:12 of them." But then you ask them for a
30:14 dollar and they don't want want to pay
30:16 because they're used to finding things
30:18 for free, right? And you never know
30:19 because you have no idea. You have some
30:22 emails in your list and you have no idea
30:24 who are those people, right? That's why
30:27 if you ask for a payment and you don't
30:30 get at least 10% of your weight list to,
30:32 you know, execute it, it means that it
30:35 won't be easier after, right? And I had
30:36 cases like that.
30:40 >> If I put up a a landing page for a $20 a
30:42 month tool that people are signing up
30:44 for and they show demand for and then
30:47 you launch it and less than 10% of
30:49 people actually pay for the thing, it's
30:50 not a good sign.
30:53 >> It's not a good sign. It It's a very bad
30:55 sign because it it means that you're
30:58 missing the whole thing. Like you're not
31:01 selling to the right audience. And
31:03 that's a big problem because it's not
31:05 something you can just change because if
31:08 you go and after another audience,
31:11 >> it's a new game. You you have to like
31:13 maybe all these traffic you saw on
31:16 keyword research was from the wrong
31:17 audience, right? >> Yeah.
31:17 >> Yeah.
31:19 >> And you don't know that because it's
31:21 just numbers and that's kind of the
31:23 problem. like you get excited about
31:25 something because there's an interest
31:28 but it's wrong people and you can't like
31:30 now you have to kill the idea because
31:32 most likely the the right people don't
31:34 search for it. What if you're just
31:35 priced too high like it is the right
31:38 audience 7% of people buy it and it
31:40 would be higher if you were priced at $9
31:42 a month instead of 19. How do you know
31:44 when that's the case or do you
31:47 >> Yeah, you offer them a discount. Let's
31:49 say even with the discount like it's
31:51 normally at 49 and you're offering it
31:53 for 19 or nine, right? Like let's say
31:56 that is the case. They will tell you. So
31:58 you offer them a discount and they tell
32:00 well you know that price would work if
32:02 that was one time but I won't pay every
32:04 month because this tool doesn't look
32:06 like a tool I should pay every month for
32:07 example. I had cases like that. For
32:11 example, I have a listing bot where it
32:13 lists you on directories and first I
32:15 want to launch it as monthly
32:17 subscription but people said that why
32:19 should I pay every month? You just kind
32:21 of do the work once for me and that's
32:24 it. You can talk to people and usually
32:26 if they walk through your process where
32:28 they they join your weight list and you
32:31 pitch them the discount and pre-booking
32:33 they would usually not all of them but
32:34 some of them will tell you back that
32:37 it's too expensive or it's wrong pricing
32:39 it should be once or the opposite. So it
32:41 should be once it should be every month
32:43 because I had the opposite too. I had
32:45 this tool called count visits. is for
32:49 analytics and I went for a lifetime deal
32:52 there and people said that I don't want
32:56 to pay $100 at once because maybe I
32:57 don't like the tool after all so I
33:00 rather start with $9 but they told me so
33:03 and I changed things like if you do this
33:05 like like imagine if I purchase my
33:08 payment link like everybody else does
33:10 then if people don't want it they just
33:11 leave you have no idea why they don't
33:13 want it but if you get them into your weight
33:14 weight
33:17 And then after a while you send them the
33:20 payment then you're sending it through
33:22 the email. So you have the the thread on
33:23 the email with them and they will
33:26 answer. There's okay so much I want to
33:29 ask. All right. So you you can validate
33:31 with paid ads. So if people say I don't
33:33 have an audience doesn't matter. That's
33:35 not an excuse. A the algorithm rewards
33:36 good content whether you have zero
33:39 followers or a million. B you can use
33:41 paid ads to skip the line. What other
33:43 tools do you use to validate demand? And
33:45 has there ever been a time where the
33:47 opposite's happened and you never
33:49 launched something because your tools
33:51 just told you it wasn't there and you
33:53 think that you you avoided a a failure
33:56 by doing so. I haven't had cases where I
34:00 completely gave up on an idea because
34:03 usually my first test for the idea is
34:07 whether I want it myself or not and I
34:09 never go on if I don't want it. And if I
34:11 want it, then I still want it even if
34:13 others don't want it, right? But now I
34:15 have to figure out why I want it and
34:18 others don't. And it takes time for me
34:21 sometimes. Like I could put the project
34:24 on hold for for a year just because I
34:27 want to slip on it and eventually I ask
34:29 people and ask people and ask people and
34:32 my intuition tells me. Also, I do one
34:35 thing that's not common like people
34:39 usually go for SEO traffic pretty late.
34:43 So, because it's a long playing game and
34:45 you shouldn't start with it because it
34:48 will play back on entry month, right?
34:49 And you should start with something else
34:52 at first. But in my case, since I have
34:55 so many products and they're all not
34:58 pressing me on on time like I have all
35:00 all the time in the world, I usually
35:04 start SEO work on a day one. In that
35:07 case, I can just post the product and
35:09 wait for a few months and then come back
35:11 and see whether there's traffic from
35:13 SEO. And that's interesting. So SEO
35:16 traffic is a new source of validation
35:18 because you know one thing that you have
35:21 to also validate with a product is not
35:24 just if people want it but also if
35:27 you're able to drive traffic there like
35:28 you may build something that everybody
35:31 wants but then it doesn't mean that you
35:33 will find you will win the attention of
35:36 the people that so that they know about
35:37 the product and and a lot of people
35:39 don't understand that that that's even
35:42 more important because I rarely seen
35:44 people who didn't manage to build the
35:46 product that people wanted.
35:48 >> It's funny. I've made the same mistake
35:50 of spending months and years saying,
35:52 "Yeah, just I don't do SEO because it
35:53 takes so long to pay off one year
35:55 later." Yeah, I just don't really do SEO
35:56 because it takes so long to pay off one
35:57 year later.
35:58 >> One year later,
36:00 >> dude, if you would have just done it any
36:02 of those times, it would be paying off
36:04 by now. When it comes to converting a
36:06 percentage of your weight list, how much
36:07 does time play a role? Because if you
36:09 collect a weight list on August 1 and
36:11 then you don't launch the thing until
36:14 April 1, you're going to convert a lot
36:15 lower percentage, right? Because it's
36:17 less relevant, less top of mind. How
36:19 quickly do you like to launch things
36:21 after you start getting emails from a
36:22 weight list?
36:24 >> It's not important at all. So I felt
36:26 that's important when I was running my
36:29 first products and I felt like the time
36:32 was pressing and people are waiting and
36:36 all the things. But basically in a start
36:38 world, if you can do something once, you
36:40 can repeat it, right? Like if you're
36:42 able to drive 100 people into your
36:45 weight list this week, you can repeat
36:47 that next year, too. Unless you're
36:49 building something that's about
36:50 Christmas and it only works on
36:52 Christmas, right? But if there is no
36:54 stuff like that, you can repeat that
36:56 again. And that's why like you shouldn't
36:59 really think about your first weight
37:02 listers as real users. Like I hope it
37:04 doesn't sound lame but you're kind of
37:08 using those people validate. Yeah,
37:10 exactly. And they don't put that much
37:12 effort into helping you to validate too,
37:14 right? And once you validate it, you
37:17 can, you know, come back in a year and
37:19 maybe all these 100 people are not
37:20 interested anymore because they were
37:22 founders and now they went back for
37:25 full-time jobs, for example. But it
37:26 doesn't matter. You just do the same
37:28 thing again and then you have hot Yeah. Yeah.
37:29 Yeah.
37:32 >> And then you go on with them. That's why
37:37 like I I would rather be worried about
37:40 me doing things on the right time. But
37:42 then like for example like you said
37:45 about SEO like if you don't do it early
37:47 then you know after a year you think you
37:50 should have done a year ago and so it's
37:51 compounding and you should do it as
37:53 early as possible but for some things
37:55 you can do it at any time and then redo
37:57 it and all fine. Yeah. So here how it
38:01 work. So basically I give it my URL. So
38:05 it does the analysis and then it learns
38:09 the audience the keywords and here it
38:11 found all the keywords that will drive
38:14 traffic and they have low competition
38:17 and it made a plan for the next
38:20 articles. So now if I click proceed and
38:22 I pay it will just you know start
38:24 working and every day will pass one
38:27 article and I come back in two months.
38:29 Is this web based or is it an app?
38:31 >> Yeah. Yeah, it's web. It just looks like
38:33 an app, but it's a it's web.
38:36 >> Yeah, I think SEO was probably my chit
38:39 cut in the beginning. Like now a lot of
38:41 people use it. Uh but in the past only
38:43 rich startups use it and I was the only
38:46 poor founder who who was doing SEO
38:48 because I had the tool that I built
38:51 myself. But but I I think it's like for
38:54 people who want to test a lot of ideas
38:56 like three, four, five, six. This is one
38:58 of the best way to test it. You just
39:00 kind of invest a little time into SEO
39:02 for all those ideas and you'll
39:04 >> leave them hanging for few months and
39:06 you come back and you see and you will
39:08 clearly see the difference. Maybe you
39:10 won't have huge traffic but you will see
39:13 that some URLs get zero traffic. It
39:16 means that no way you can compete like
39:19 with some keywords, you know, they're
39:21 like rich people paying a lot of money
39:23 and you can never win that. And with
39:24 with other keywords
39:27 >> surprisingly you win easily and you get
39:29 a lot of traffic and you can grow on
39:30 that and it's
39:34 >> sometimes easier to just test whether by
39:36 building the articles than actually
39:38 doing this you know long keyword
39:41 research stuff and because the keyword
39:43 research as I told earlier you never
39:46 know who is clicking that which is also
39:47 dangerous like you might see some
39:49 numbers but maybe those are wrong people
39:51 but if you drive traffic into your blog
39:54 you can have little banners within your
39:58 articles with the weight list. So that's
40:01 kind of another way to test your weight
40:03 list. You just put a banner and it says
40:05 by the way if you want to try this
40:08 website builder for artists leave your
40:10 email and we will not notify you and
40:13 that's another way because uh you will
40:17 see some data out of it. Now with this
40:19 is does it integrate with like web flow
40:21 and other web builders so you can
40:23 publish these articles without having to
40:24 touch it?
40:27 >> Yeah. Yeah. It just syncs with frameware
40:30 web flow WordPress everything. So you
40:32 basically never have to come back if you
40:34 don't want it. It will try to nag you
40:37 and bring you back to to help. But if
40:40 you ignore it, it will just like like an
40:41 employee who will ask you questions and
40:43 if you don't answer it, they will just
40:45 go and and do as they think they should
40:46 do it, right?
40:48 >> Oh man, that is so cool.
40:50 >> Quick question. What if there were a
40:51 private community out there of people
40:53 that were building businesses based on
40:56 this podcast? Well, I just made it and
40:57 it's only for business starters and
41:00 business builders. It's called TK owners
41:01 and it's basically like having me and a
41:03 hundred other business geniuses as your
41:05 business partner. Also, there's going to
41:07 be exclusive new trends, growth hacks,
41:08 business ideas, and a database of
41:10 everything I've ever talked about.
41:12 You'll find thousands of startup case
41:14 studies. You'll have weekly ask me
41:16 anythings with me while I'll answer your
41:18 questions directly. You can join now at
41:20 tkowners.com, link in the show notes.
41:24 Okay, so we've talked about validating.
41:25 Well, we've talked about ideating,
41:27 validating. What about growing?
41:31 >> Yeah. So the growth part in my world
41:35 comes from a social media. Social media
41:38 is the best way to grow for small
41:41 products. Right now the best part about
41:44 social media is that it's not just the
41:46 people you bring directly from social
41:49 media but also the people who learn
41:52 about you through social media and start
41:54 talking about you start including you
41:55 into their blog posts, their
41:58 newsletters, their directories. So
41:59 basically if you become popular on
42:02 social media you get so much attention
42:04 from everywhere and all the other people
42:06 become your marketers for free like
42:08 influencers start talking about your
42:09 tool and and you don't have to pay them.
42:13 So I I think like whenever uh you start
42:14 working on growth you should try social
42:16 media and see whether you have talent
42:19 for it. If you have talent maybe that's
42:22 the only thing you should do because the
42:24 upside of social media is bigger than
42:26 everything else. I think you will get
42:29 SEO traffic by doing social media
42:30 because your product will will become
42:33 popular. People will put it on their
42:35 lists and directories and you'll get
42:37 back links and that's why you'll get the
42:41 traffic back. So kind of universal and
42:44 the other thing is SEO as I just talked.
42:46 So you should make sure that you have
42:47 enough backlinks. You should grow your
42:50 domain rating by having backlinks and
42:52 you should generate articles or write
42:55 them yourself or use any of the tools
42:57 available for that. And a lot of people
42:59 think that that's complicated. They
43:02 should outsource that to agencies and
43:05 stuff like that. I I think uh if you
43:07 have money you should uh because that
43:09 will they will do good job but it
43:11 doesn't take that much time. I think
43:13 spending one hour a day in one month you
43:16 can have decent output from your SEO efforts.
43:17 efforts. >> Yeah.
43:18 >> Yeah.
43:21 >> And then number three is uh partners
43:23 affiliate partners. So you should sign
43:25 up for something like
43:28 or first promoter where you're able to
43:31 create this portal so that your partners
43:34 could sign up there get unique links and
43:36 a code and they could promote your
43:38 product and earn money. And you should
43:39 be really really generous on the
43:42 commission. Like a lot of people have
43:44 this like 10% or 15%. You should be
43:45 crazy generous.
43:48 >> Like go 50%. Like if you don't have
43:49 costs on your product,
43:52 >> go for 50%. If you have underlying
43:55 costs, maybe go for 25 30 and then
43:57 you'll see people actually, you know,
43:59 promoting your your product. I have a
44:01 lot of people promoting it and it's one
44:04 of the best investments I made. So
44:06 that's the number three. the partners
44:08 who promote your product for for the
44:12 commission. Number four is you should
44:14 place your product in front of the
44:16 people wherever you want wherever you
44:18 can. There has to be everywhere on
44:22 directories, launchpads, forums, Reddits
44:24 and social media. You should find all
44:27 possible conversations on Quora and
44:28 other places where people talk about it
44:31 and place it there. So that's really
44:34 important. Two reasons. So number one
44:37 reason people may just stumble upon your
44:39 product there and become your customer.
44:40 But number two which is even more
44:45 important LLMs crawl those websites and
44:48 they crawl those comments and those
44:50 articles and those listicles and then
44:52 they may actually add that into their
44:55 training data data and then they will
44:57 reply with your product when people ask
44:59 and that's really big. Like I have some
45:02 of my products that suddenly just blew
45:04 up because they were in a training set
45:06 for the latest LLMs and now I have like
45:09 almost all traffic coming from Chad GPT
45:10 and and all the others because I think
45:13 they all use the same training set like
45:15 it was surprisingly you know
45:16 simultaneously when I got the traffic
45:20 from Chad GPT and Claude and Grock on
45:23 the same week. So I think they're buying
45:25 the training that data from somebody. >> Interesting.
45:26 >> Interesting.
45:28 >> From the same person, same company.
45:31 >> Yeah. So, and then number five, you can
45:35 build little tools that are free to
45:37 drive traffic to those tools and then
45:38 you channel the same people into your
45:42 paid tool. Like if you're running
45:45 website builder for artists, maybe you
45:48 should build a little tool which is like
45:52 a cover generator for your album. That's
45:54 kind of probably good keyword, right?
45:55 Because they like
45:57 >> just a lead magnet.
45:58 >> Yeah, exactly. And they would go there,
46:01 they would generate their album, they
46:03 would enter their email to receive the
46:06 PNG in a good quality. And in the email
46:08 in the bottom you would say like by the
46:11 way here's also my other product. Check
46:14 it out if you want. And the chance that
46:15 people will click is really high because
46:17 they were satisfied with your first
46:19 product because that's the difference
46:22 like when you're cold presenting when
46:24 people see your banner for first time
46:26 they they don't trust you because they
46:28 see things all the time but now they
46:30 trust you because they like your
46:34 product. So kind of these five are my my
46:37 favorite ways to grow at the start and
46:38 then you can add a lot more but I think
46:41 these five bring like 80% of the growth.
46:44 >> What do you think about directories in
46:46 the age of AI? Is it still a great
46:47 opportunity there?
46:49 >> Yeah. Yeah. I think so because like
46:54 directories that are made by people who
46:56 have influence will be really big. It's
46:59 just like if you go to Instagram and an
47:02 influencer has a list of anything, car
47:05 influencer has a list of, you know, car
47:07 shops or tires or things like that,
47:10 you're going to trust that and you will
47:12 be willing to follow those links and buy
47:14 that and share to your friends, right?
47:15 And I think the same going to happen
47:20 with AI. Like AI is now in a place where
47:22 it has so much information, it doesn't
47:24 know how to pick the right one. Like
47:27 Google in the old world tried to use the
47:32 number of incoming links as a way to uh
47:34 rank the websites, right? But it's so
47:38 easy to gain that. And now AI systems
47:40 don't know how to rank the websites.
47:42 They're just using the same system
47:43 Google is using. And that's easy to
47:47 gain. And over time, I think AI will
47:49 like we already see that they start
47:52 using Reddit now. And when they use
47:55 Reddit, they also pick the articles with
47:58 certain amount of up votes, right? So
48:02 they want to filter out trash. And I
48:05 think the directories are going to help
48:10 humans to filter out trash. And yeah,
48:12 like in every category, there will be so
48:14 many items that how do you choose the
48:17 right one? And directories can help with
48:20 that. and especially directories made by
48:23 people who have social media influence.
48:26 I think that's kind of the mix here.
48:28 >> And so there's an opportunity to partner
48:29 with people that have influence, right?
48:31 Because most people listening or
48:33 watching are not influencers, right?
48:35 >> That we can all slide into their DMs and
48:37 and plant that idea in them because
48:38 they're certainly not thinking along
48:40 these lines like, "Hey, you like plant
48:43 like they say uh invent the disease and
48:45 sell the cure, right? Hey, I see that
48:47 you have this list of all these things.
48:48 Like, do you realize that directories
48:50 are going to become more relevant than
48:52 ever in the age of AI? Just so happens I
48:54 can help you with that. Let's talk about
48:57 splitting up this business somehow.
48:58 >> Yeah. I mean, that's exactly my model,
49:01 right? But I do it the other way around.
49:04 You know, partnering up with people who
49:07 own attention to build a product around
49:09 that attent attention is is great. And
49:12 you can do not only directories but you
49:13 can also do little products, little
49:16 tools. You know little tools are easy to
49:18 build in the age of vibe coding. You can
49:22 build them in one evening. So now how do
49:25 we compete? Like we can all build that
49:28 same little cover generator for an
49:31 artist. But if that cover generator is
49:35 built by 50 Cent or Eminem or there's
49:37 some connection there, then it's
49:39 different thing. it stands out from all
49:42 the others right and if we make a wild
49:46 guess that AI will make it easy to do
49:49 everything if that's the guess or most
49:52 of the things then there will be
49:53 difficult to compete because everything
49:56 is the same as good as the other things
49:58 right and now you can compete through
50:00 reputation and the reputation can be
50:03 either built by yourself which is also
50:05 not a bad idea because like we're not
50:08 influencers all right When you say
50:10 influencer, you think about somebody
50:12 huge with millions of followers. But if
50:14 you pick something really small like
50:16 like something where only, you know,
50:18 10,000 people are interested in this in
50:20 the whole world, probably there's nobody
50:22 talking about that.
50:24 >> And if you just start talking about
50:26 that, that will be enough to go viral
50:29 within that little group, right? That's
50:30 one way, but the other way is of course
50:32 to find the influencer. I I think both
50:34 are possible. I wouldn't say that if
50:35 you're not influencer, you shouldn't
50:37 even try. I think you should just
50:40 redefine what's influencer and it can be
50:41 something very small.
50:44 >> Oh, that's so good. John, thank you.
50:46 This was awesome. Where can people find
50:48 you and your products and whatever you make?
50:49 make?
50:53 >> I'm on Twitter and LinkedIn and
50:56 Substack. I love to be helpful with my
50:58 products. I love to be helpful with my
51:00 content that I share on X is John Rush
51:04 X. I love to be helpful with advice. So,
51:06 I think I'm probably the only person
51:08 with so many followers who answered
51:12 every single DM I ever received and
51:14 every single reply if there was a
51:15 question, of course, because there's a
51:18 lot of spam. And I think I will stop
51:19 doing that by the end of this year
51:22 because it's overwhelming. But I will
51:24 still do that for the next three months.
51:27 So, if you need help, I'm open. My DMs
51:28 are open.
51:29 >> Okay. Thank you.
51:30 >> Thank you.
51:31 >> All right. What you think? Please share
51:32 it with a friend and we'll see you next
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