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How to Build a Magnetic Brand that Sells Itself ft. Seth Godin | THE 505 PODCAST | YouTubeToText
YouTube Transcript: How to Build a Magnetic Brand that Sells Itself ft. Seth Godin
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Core Theme
The core theme of this content is that effective marketing and brand building are not about chasing vanity metrics or broad reach, but about creating genuine value, building trust, and crafting a compelling story that resonates deeply with a specific, "smallest viable audience."
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So attention has always been critically
important and it has a best friend named
trust. So you're measuring the wrong thing.
thing.
>> That's Seth Goden, one of the most
influential marketers of our time and 21
time best-selling author. He's been
teaching people how to stand out, build
trust, and create change for over three decades.
decades.
>> Marketing is telling a true story to
people who want to hear it and creating
a story that people want to spread. In
this episode, Seth shares why most
brands are chasing metrics that don't
matter, how to build something so
remarkable that people talk about it
over time, and how the size of your
audience is completely irrelevant.
>> If you were honest with yourself, would
you buy what you make? Would you listen
to what you do? If you didn't know you,
>> we dive into the smallest viable
audience, the real purpose of marketing,
>> and why if people aren't buying, the
problem isn't them, it's your story.
>> Find the 10 perfect people. If it
doesn't work for them, make something
better. If it does work for them,
perhaps they'll tell the others. If they
tell the others, you grow.
>> This isn't about short-term hacks.
>> This is the blueprint for building an
audience that actually buys. Let's go.
>> So, Seth, you've been at the center of
marketing for decades now, and we really
want to understand when it comes down to
it, when you boil it down, what makes
somebody buy versus not?
>> I don't think many people understand
what marketing is. It's not hustle or
hype or pushing something out there.
It's not getting the word out. Marketing
is telling a true story to people who
want to hear it and creating a story
that people want to spread. If you
create enough value, you'll be fine. And
it's so easy to get addicted to the
endless social media hustle. Likes
doesn't mean anyone likes you. Friends
doesn't mean they're your friend. And
followers doesn't mean they're following
you. What you have to do is figure out
how to matter.
>> I love that. I I just recently listened
to Alex or Mosie on Direo yesterday and
they were talking about how, you know,
you have these people right now that
have 50 million followers, 20 million
followers, all the likes, all the
comments, but nothing is converting for
them. Why do you think that is? And why
can someone that has a much smaller
audience actually get someone to
transact with them? Like what do you
think is the psychology behind that?
You've you've been studying it for so
many years.
>> Well, what does it even mean to have an
audience? Are you are you stealing
attention? Are you a clown putting on a
sideshow? Because a clown can get a lot
of attention, but there aren't very many
people in the clown fan club. So,
the size of the audience is completely
irrelevant. It's like asking how many
words per minute you can type if you're
hiring a programmer. It doesn't matter.
What matters is, would we miss you if
you were gone? Are you offering us
status or affiliation? Is there tension
associated with the thing you're
offering? And I don't want to miss out
because if all you're doing is talking
and creating controversy and having
fights with people and you want to
collect a crowd, I can't stop you from
doing that. But it's no way to make a living.
living.
>> Would you say though that in today's day
and age like attention is a form of
currency and super important are what
you're saying is that attention isn't
everything. You just need to worry about
being as remarkable as possible. So
attention has always been critically
important and it has a best friend named
trust and it is possible to get
attention without trust
um but it's not worth anything. It is
possible to get trust without a lot of
attention that's worth a ton. So you're
measuring the wrong thing. And the idea
of remarkable doesn't mean a gimmick. It
doesn't mean a hustle. It means worth
making a remark about.
So, this show has a lot of people
watching and listening to it. Did they
find out about it because you called
them up at home and said, "Uh, you got
to watch my show." I don't think so.
Most of the people who are listening
have never met the two of you. They
heard about it from someone who else
heard about it who told them about it.
And people spread the idea not because
it's a cataclysm and a joke. They spread
the idea because it will make them look
good if they introduce their friends to
what you're doing. That's what
remarkable means. Worth making a remark
about. Break down for me the difference
between marketing advertising because I
think it gets thrown around a lot and
people just don't have a concrete
definition for the two of these. Can you
go into it really quickly for us?
>> So, if you saw Madman in the old days,
that's an advertising agency. And in the
60s, they were the same, marketing and
advertising. If you had a marketing
budget, it was your ad budget. What
advertising is is spending money to take
people's attention. And if you do it in
a way that makes you a profit, you get
to do it again. So Proctor and Gamble
can spend billions of dollars a year on advertising.
advertising.
Marketing in the post TV world is
totally different because it doesn't
cost cash to a media company. It costs
effort to make something people want to
talk about. So what's Banksy's
advertising budget? Zero.
But his marketing budget, meaning how
much time does Banksy spend imagining
the next thing he's going to create is
huge. So if you're being lazy and
working on a funnel and counting your
clicks and trying to get the word out
there, you're getting exactly what you
deserve. But if you're spending your time
time
putting on an honest show that people
want to see and they want to engage with
and they want to be part of, that's hard
work. That's a useful way to spend your
time. Going back to I guess the podcast
example, I agree that we have a show
that people are talking about and
spreading the word about,
but distribution I feel like is also
important and like staying consistent on
posting content and getting the word out
about our show is also important and I
think that's a big reason why our show
has grown. So, what would you say to
that when it comes to I agree that being
remarkable is having a product that
somebody wants to talk about, but when
it comes to today's day and age where
marketing on social media is like really
important to grow as a business, what
would you say to that?
>> Well, I think first I'm going to call
you out a little bit cuz twice you said
in today's day and age, it's not different.
different. >> Okay.
>> Okay.
>> It's just easy to make an excuse out of
it. I have to do this because Facebook
gives me no choice. I have to spend all
my time answering my DMs because in
today's day day and age it's the only
way. Well, actually not. No one even
knows Banksy's name. Banksy doesn't seem
to have any problems, right? So, no, you
could go work for free for Mark
Zuckerberg. You could go work for free
for for Tim or anybody else, hustling on
their platform, doing all the things
they say for you to do. No one's ever
gotten ahead doing that. Mr. Beast isn't
Mr. Beast because Mr. beast is better at
posting regularly on YouTube than other
people, right? There's a million people
who are following those playbooks and a
hundred of them win the lottery. So, I
don't believe that following the pattern
of people who might have had better
timing than you or might have had a
better break than you is the way to
catch up with them. It's not. What you
need to do is say, "Can I make an
episode as good as Starly Klein's
episode three of Mystery Show, a podcast
that she recorded nine years ago?"
Because if you can make an episode that
good, people will be talking about you
in nine years.
And what it means to be good is not that
you have a shouting match with Elon
Musk. What it means to be good is you
did something that actually mattered.
>> That is so interesting. It's such a
different way of of thinking about, you
know, where where people should be
putting their time and attention because
I think a lot of the the gurus or the
people that are big in the space right
now are screaming at you to be posting
so consistently on social and it it's
like a it's a running match to fall off
like the end of this cliff almost
instead of really focusing on your
product being spectacular
going forward for like the brands that
might be listening to our show right
now. Maybe they're in this like 1 to 5
million range and they're doing good
work, right? They're they have a product
that works, but they might not be
exceptional and they might have like one
thing of the exceptional brand in their
space. What advice do you have for them
from a more marketing standpoint that
could help them exceed and kind of go to
this next level?
>> Well, it helps to start by admitting
that you're just not that good yet. >> Okay?
>> Okay?
>> Right? that it's possible that you're a
$3 million brand that's already good
enough to be a $300 million brand, but
it's more likely that you're a $3
million brand that through the force of
your will got from half a million to
three million but is running out of
steam because you just can't manually
take it to the next level. That
if you were honest with yourself, would
you buy what you make?
Would you listen to what you do? if you
didn't know you, you know. So, when you
look at the sad people who do MLM and
are hustling their cousins and their
mother-in-law to buy some stuff from
them, well, that's not selling. That's
just leveraging your relatives that what
you want. You know, if if you take a
look at Supreme,
there's a $120 t-shirt. There's a line
out the door to buy this shirt. And I
saw that line and everyone in that line
was already wearing a shirt.
So they weren't selling clothing to
people who were naked. They were selling
something else. And Supreme isn't a $3
million brand. It's probably a $300
million brand because they decided to
stand for something. It doesn't mean
that the cotton in their t-shirt is
better than the cotton in my t-shirt.
That's not what I'm talking about. I'm
saying they have a story that's worth
paying for.
And in a double blind study, people
probably couldn't tell it apart. But
we're not double blind. What we buy is
the story. We buy the way it makes us
feel to add that tincture to our morning
shake. Right? If the tincture had
nothing in it but water, it probably
would work just as well because the
placebo is what works and it's worth
paying for. Placeos are great. So if you
got a2 million $3 million brand, I would
ask you the following question.
How many new customers did you get
yesterday as a result of a direct
referral from one of your existing customers?
customers?
And if the answer is I don't know, not
that many, then you got to make a better
story and you got to make a better
product. How can a business track that?
What are like some actual ways that
besides a is it maybe having a form on
their website or just straight up asking
their customers? Is there is there a way
that you can track that?
>> Okay. So, if you're a two or three
million dollar brand, you're only seeing
a few new customers every day. So, don't
act like Microsoft. Just pick up the
phone and call people. Write them a
note. Right? That CDB, which my friend
Derek Civers built into a multi
multi-million dollar company, you can go
Google what the email you got when you
became a customer of CDB was like. That
email did not fit any playbook. that
email was worth however many millions of
dollars it was worth when he sold the
company because he was a a real person
running an actual business and people
are stunned. You know, when I got into
business school, the head of admissions
called me on the phone and I was like,
"Oh my god, I can't believe." And then I
realized, well, only 200 people got in.
It's not that hard for her to call 200
people. So, she did. Just talk to your
customers. They'll talk to you. I feel
like everybody's so focused on growing
and scaling so fast that you can learn
so much about your business by just
asking yourself a few questions and then
reaching out to your existing customers.
I think that's something that people
should do a lot more of.
>> Especially a hell of a lot easier when
you have 10 of them.
>> You can really I mean you can really
learn a ton about why they bought your
product. It's a lot easier. Wow. Yeah,
that is so it's so interesting. Has the
framework changed if you were to go
consult back in the day for these
multi-million dollar brands or versus
like the really teenytiny brands maybe
when you first started that you would
talk to. What has stayed the exact same
and what are a few of the things that
have changed along the way? I know you
mentioned earlier like a lot of the
stuff is still the same. It's like just
maybe people are repackaging it or
saying it differently.
>> Yeah. So, I've never done any
consulting. Sometimes I give free advice
to people I care about.
>> Um and I've given a lot of speeches
around the world. So, I've hung out with
people who spend a lot of money on
advertising and marketing. The thing
that was true
30 or 40 years ago that isn't true now
is there were a lot of people who spent
all their time thinking about what
should be in their ads.
And that because this the length of a
campaign is so short now, they don't
have all year. Like my old boss spent 18
months on a team that redesigned the
packaging for Lays potato chips. That's
all they did for a year and a half. And
after they were done, you couldn't even
tell they had done anything. But because
in those days it was worth it. You only
redid the packaging every five or 10
years. So now people are insanely
distracted by false proxies. A false
proxy is a number that's easy to measure
and worthless.
And in hiring, a false proxy is
something like, um, do you look like me?
Did you go to school where I went to
school? It there's no evidence that that
has anything to do with you doing a good
job. And a false proxy online is all the
numbers that social media companies make
easy for you to find. Every one of those
numbers is irrelevant. Right? I don't
use Twitter or LinkedIn or Facebook
actively. Zero. I don't know what my
numbers are. It doesn't matter. I don't
read my Amazon reviews. It doesn't
matter. What matters is did I change
someone enough that they want to talk to
somebody else so it will raise their
status or enable them to affiliate with
somebody. So, you know, trivial small
business example, there's a a little
microorganism called cooji. It's a spore
that grows on the outside of rice. And
you can use cooji in cooking as a
ferment. and you can make all sorts of
cool sauces and things with it. So, I
bought some koji from one of the only US
cooji manufacturers and he sent me a
nice note by hand inside the box. He
didn't do that so I would blog about
him, but I blogged about him because
that's what I do. And so, I in that one
act sold a lot of cooji. And then a few
weeks later, he sent all of his
customers, as far as I can tell, a
little bag of his new Koji just to see
what we thought about it with a note
saying, "What do you think about this?"
And how many people have I told about
Cooji? A lot of people. I'm sort of a
Cooji boore. Because I find this
fascinating. It raises my status as a
cutting edge kind of cook person and
also makes my friends feel good, some of
whom have gone on to buy Koji. That's a
movement. That's not You could pick
anyone and we're anyone. That's what
most people in the DTC business say. You
need dog food. We have dog food. Yeah,
there are lots of people have dog food.
I don't need to pay attention to you
just because it's important to you. What
is the movement that we're here to
create? It doesn't have to be I'm going
to save the world. Doesn't have to be
I'm going to save the children. It could
be something a little bit more selfish
than that. But it's still a movement in
that you are helping people get to where
they want to go.
>> Seth is just spitting so much game.
>> He's pretty knowledgeable.
>> God, he really is. I got to talk to him
real quick, though, about motion array
cuz there's a really high chance that
someone listening, they might need great
sound effects or even great music
>> or graphics.
>> Or graphics, lower thirds.
>> Come on.
>> I mean, this is this is an episode of a
thought leader. And I feel like a
thought leader, you know, if you're a
thought leader out there listening, you
probably do social content. And we need
you guys to have great assets for your
videos. It's the top link down in the description.
description.
>> If you want to market your product or
services or personal brand better,
assets is the way that's going to take
your content and make it remarkable.
>> I bet your editor's pissed that they
don't have the stuff that's in the top
link down in the description because I
mean, I've seen your stuff. I know that
there's no music behind it.
>> They could use Motion Array.
>> I know you could. And that's why I'm
telling you about it. It's the top link.
You get two months for free if you use
our code. It also helps out The Rock.
So, go check them out. Check them out at
Motion Ray. Let's go.
>> I can hear people hearing your answer
and saying or thinking to themselves,
Seth, that's easy for you to say, you've
been doing this for decades. You've
grown your personal brand. You you've
done it a million talks. Like, you have
decades of experience. I'm kind of just
starting out. How can I not focus on
those things that you're telling me not
to focus on? So, to those people, what
would you say?
>> Well, I would say two things. First of
all, I'm not particularly wellnown. I've
sold uh 21 bestsellers in a row, but not
one of them, not one has reached more
than 1% of the US population. So, to a
rounding error, my market share is zero.
And I like it like that. Number two,
when I started my blog, I only had 30
readers. And I didn't once do any
promotion to get to the scale that I
have now, right? So when I started out,
no one knew who I was and I even had a
little bit of hair. So, but yeah, I have
enormous privilege, an enormous
advantage. And there are things I get
away with that most people can't because
I am trusted, not because I am known.
And what I say is super simple. Can you
find 10 people who trust you? If there
are if there are not 10 people who trust
you, you got big problems. But if there
are 10 people who trust you, can you
bring them your idea? Send them your
novel in PDF form something.
And after you do that, do they tell the
others? If they don't tell the others,
you got to make something better. If
they do tell the others, you're on to
something. So the book that made my
career after permission marketing was
this one. I had been kicked out of the
book industry because I had done a book
that was a total failure. So I had no
publisher. I did have a column and fast
company and I wrote about this book.
There's it's inside the milk carton. And
I said if you want a free copy, send me
five bucks and I'll mail it to you. I
only have 10,000.
So I sold 5,000 of them and I broke
even. So that's only 5,000 people. And
then I did nothing else to promote it
and it ended up selling millions of
copies. Is it because it's the best book
ever written? No. But it's easy to talk
about. It makes your life better if your
boss knows that you are reading Purple Cow.
Cow.
That's what I did. I wrote a book so
that your life would get better if you
told the others.
>> Take me back to getting kicked out of
the publishing industry and what that
moment was like for you cuz you knew you
had something that was great. Like I
mean you put it out to the world knowing
like I put a ton of work into this. This
is an awesome product. I think it's
going to lead to the success of
someone's life. And I'm sure a lot of us
that are listening to this or even us
like we put out an episode and it bombs
and I'm like this was an amazing piece
of advice like this person has done so
much in business but it didn't
translate. What was the conversations
like with yourself when you were at a
place where you were faced with that
rejection? You know, I've been lucky
enough along the way to stumble into
some very powerful and rich and famous
people. And
until very recently, I was sure that if
I could just pitch that person who
seemed to be in charge, it would open
the door. So, I went running with Steve
Casease when he ran AOL and it was the
most important site on the internet. And
I go down this long list of CEOs and
people who I would pitch an idea to and
they would say, "Sure, talk to this
person." And it never works that the
head of the biggest thing, the
well-known brand, they have way less
power than you think. So what had
happened in my career, I've been a book
packager for over a decade. He did 120
books, books about gardening and uh all
manner of stuff. And then I became an
author author and permission marketing
was a bestseller. So on the strength of
that I decided to write the book I'd
always wanted to write which was with a
forward by Charles Darwin and it was
about evolution in business and
the way book publishers tell you they're
excited is they give you an advance
money you don't have to send back to say
we want to publish this don't let
anybody else publish it. So I finally
had my big advance. I finally had the
attention of the people who were big
shots at Simon and Schustster. I'm like,
this is going to be the big thing.
And uh that was three weeks before 911
and that was heartbreaking for an
enormous number of people and and a
trauma and a tragedy, but also meant no
books got sold in the next six months.
So the book flopped was I think we ended
up selling 17,000 copies. And so I had a
black mark next to my name like don't
work with this guy anymore. So no one
even knew about the book Purple Cow. Um,
I just knew that people in publishing
had had enough of me. And it was the
greatest thing that could have happened
because instead of worrying about
pleasing an editor who doesn't even like
business books in New York City, I could
worry about pleasing my readers.
And never again did I worry about the
editors. I was like, if I have readers,
everything else will take care of
itself. And that was the big shift in my head.
head.
>> Yeah. I feel like sometimes you got to
uh you turn a negative into a positive
and at the time you probably were pretty
bummed out, but now looking back you're
like it's actually the greatest thing
that could have happened to me.
>> Explain it.
>> Yeah. Go ahead.
>> Oh, explain to us what the Purple Cow
book like that thesis because I think so
many people will find that extremely
useful in anything that they're doing
whether it's social, their brand, all
the above. So could you explain that to
us briefly? The reason I wrote a book is
because uh I had a dear friend who owned
the most important bakery in Paris and
um he was killed in a helicopter crash
and I wanted to dedicate a book to him
but I didn't have a book so I wrote a
book so I could dedicated to Lionel and
the book is sort of about what he built
because a bakery in Paris by law is
flour, water, salt. and starter. That's
all you get to use. Everyone's got the
same. So, how do you build a bakery that
has a line around the corner? How do you
build a bakery that twothirds of the top
restaurants in Paris serve this stuff?
How do you build a bakery that now 20
years later, his daughter is still
killing it? And the answer is you tell a
story and you live a story that's worth
talking about. So that when I'm there,
there are people who flown in from Japan
to buy four loaves of bread and then fly
home because there's something about all
the pieces he and his family have put
together that make it remarkable. So,
the story in the book is not true. And
it's about me uh driving with a family
through a pastor in uh rural France and
my kids for 17 hours have been making a
commotion and noise. And my wife has
been asleep because she has
transportation narcolepsy unless there's
a good air pl on the plane. And we are
driving through this pasture and I
notice it's quiet in the back seat. My
kids, my 5-year-old and seven-year-old,
are finally falling asleep. And I look
in the back seat. They're not asleep.
They're staring out the window at a cow
for about 3 seconds. Cuz cows are
boring. Cows are all the same. You can
say anything you want about a cow.
They're the same. And then I said, "But
what if it had been a purple cow? If it
had been a purple cow, I would have
pulled over and my wife would have woken
up. She would have gotten out her phone
to take pictures of the cow so she could
show her friends back home. My kids
would have ignored me as usual, opened
the door, run across the street, hopped
over the fence, and rubbed the cow so
that they could go to show and tell in
two weeks and tell everyone that they
had touched a purple cow. So, it's not a
gimmick. It's just everyone's life would
get better if they could talk about the
purple cow. So, we don't need more dog
food or razors or uh, you know,
over-the-counter medication. What we
need is something to talk about. We need
connection. We need meaning. We need a
chance to get to where we're going.
That's why you should start a small
business, not to be a junior version of
Hines Ketchup.
>> When it comes to
>> That was a rant. Sorry.
>> No, I I loved it. Now, when it comes to
personal brand versus a, you know, uh,
an actual product, a store like the cafe
or the bakery,
do the principles just still stay the
same or is there anything different that
you tell someone who's trying to build
maybe a brickandmortar or an actual
physical product versus building a
personal brand and trying to monetize
that personal brand through digital
products or something
>> or speaking or something like that.
>> Yeah. So what do you think a brand is?
Can you define that for me?
>> I would say a brand is the gut feeling
somebody gets about you or your product
when they come across uh when they come
across you in person or they come across
you online.
>> I I'd second that.
>> Yeah, I agree with that. I think we
should differentiate between a brand and
a logo cuz when a business or a person
says, "I'm rebranding," what they really
mean is, "I'm reloing, putting on a new
outfit." I'm redoing the colors. I'm
doing the color new colors.
>> Yeah, exactly. That's so true.
>> So, Hyatt Hyatt has a logo. Nike has a
brand because if Nike opened a hotel,
you know exactly what it would be like
to stay there. But if Hyatt came out
with sneakers, you have no clue what
they would be like. So, as a result,
what we think of when we think of a
brand is a promise, an expectation. What
do I expect from your next post? What do
I expect from your next episode? Because
if the next episode of this podcast
included an interview with two doulamer
playing people who raise goats, folks
would be very confused because that's
not your brand. That's not part of your
promise. So the Pulen
bakery brand is very clear and if they
decided to open a sandwich shop, we know
just what it would be like.
A personal brand is either I have an
expectation and a trust for you or I
don't. And it might be that my
expectation is you spout nonsense and
you know are annoying. That's a brand.
You could change it, but it would take a
while. So I don't think there's any
difference whatsoever between a personal
brand and a business brand. And so if we
think about how do you make a living as
a speaker,
you don't do it by giving slightly bit
better talks than other people who give talks
talks
because that's not what speakers get
rewarded for. The the market for speakers
speakers
who do that for free is large. You can
definitely give a lot of speeches for
free if you give pretty good speeches.
But if you want to get paid a lot to
give a speech, it's not because you give
a pretty good speech. It's because the
people in the audience when they hear
you're about to give a speech are
thrilled that the conference organizer
hired you. So it's about your
reputation. It's about the expectation.
It's about all those pieces. So, the
single best way to make a living as a
professional speaker is to be successful
enough at something else that you don't
need to make a living as a professional speaker.
speaker.
>> Real quick, we want to talk to our
photographer and videographer listeners.
If that's not you, skip forward a little
bit. But this Sunday, we're hosting a
live training. What are we doing?
>> We're going to break down how you can
charge more for your work and how to
position yourself to start landing more
deals and stop getting ghosted by these
potential new clients.
>> Dude, I don't want you guys going after
the penny pinchers anymore. I want you
making more bread with your camera. We
want to teach you guys really how it's
possible to turn your creative passion
into a full-time career as a creative.
That's exactly what me and Braden have
done and we're going to walk you through
the exact 10step framework to do that
this Sunday.
>> It's literally 25 bucks. It's the second
link in the description. I hope you join
us. It'll be recorded and it'll be
available for 24 hours. So, go check
that out. Let's keep going. Can you talk
to me a little bit about something we
chatted about in the very beginning and
it was like tension and we talked a
little bit about scarcity when like
building out our products and thinking
about the strategy behind it. Where does
tension come into play? Is that the
first thing you think about or is it
like hey is it you know this is where
we're going to be delivering the stuff.
It's we think this group hangs out on
Facebook, Instagram and Tik Tok and then
does it go to the tension side of
things? Like what is the order of
operations for for you?
>> So what's tension? Tension isn't stress.
Stress is bad. Stress is wanting two
things at the same time and you can't
have both.
Tension is this might not work. I might
get left behind. They're going to sell
out. What will my friends think? These
are This is the only reason that standup
comedy works. If the comic blurts out
the punchline before she tells the joke,
it's not funny because there's no
tension. So, the tension at Patagonia is
different than the tension at some
off-brand clothing company. At the
off-brand clothing company, it's you
need clothes, we have clothes. They're
cheaper than those people. There's no
tension there. And that's fine because
if I don't care, that's what I should buy.
buy.
But when a clothing designer comes out
with something that's edgy that you
could wear to the Met Gala, you're
thinking, maybe I'll look like an idiot,
but maybe people will love it. There's
tension, right? If it's, "Oh, I wonder
if other people are going to be wearing
it. Would that be good or would it be
bad?" That's tension. So, if we want
change to happen,
we have to willingly inflict tension,
do it as a service. So, if Taylor is
doing a concert,
people run to get tickets because they
know the tickets won't be there
tomorrow. There's tension. So the
conversation begins at any marketer who
matters not with oh the sample audience
is on Tik Tok. I want to know what's the
change you seek to make. Who are you
trying to change and what is the change
you seek to make?
And then we have to create a narrative
around that change that some people will
eagerly embrace and other people will
eagerly run away from because if it's
for everyone, it's not for anybody.
We're looking for the smallest viable
audience and delivering to them what
they want.
>> What does the smallest viable audience
mean? Is that going is that thinking
about, you know, this is my this is my
ideal person. This is Mike. He's 35. He
works in at the railroad and we want to
sell him these railroad pants and he's,
you know, this is the things that he
does. Like, can you explain that to our
group, the Smiseball?
>> Yeah, you're you're you're really close.
I don't care so much about demographics.
>> I care a lot about psychoraphics. Okay,
>> this is Mike. He believes he's a little
overweight, but that if he had a better
pair of pants, women would think he's
more attractive. This is Mike. Mike
regularly daydreams about possibility.
This is Mike. Mike has money to spend,
but only on things he's sure going to
make a difference. Most people don't fit
that definition. >> Okay,
>> Okay,
>> fine. Right. So, if you go to an Hermes
store and look at a Birkin bag and you
say, "What? This is what? $30,000.
They don't try to justify it by telling
you that the cow was named Trudy and
blah blah blah. They just say, "Oh, you
want to go to that store seven doors
down. Thanks for stopping by." So, if
you're not regularly sending people to
the competition, you don't care about
the smallest viable audience.
>> Yeah. Hermes just calls you broke and
says, "This is you can go to Walmart
down the street."
>> Oh, you must who let who let him in?
Yeah. How'd you get through the door?
Have you something that I noticed a lot
of people that are in the clothing
industry right now, they're struggling
with the dupes on Amazon. So like people
are just choosing like the lowest cost
thing. And maybe that's because the
economy that we're in. Maybe it's
because of a lot of different factors.
But I'm noticing it more and more. If I
go on Amazon and let's say say you're
looking for like a Lululemon shirt and
the damn exact same Llemon shirt is on
there with the same photo, which should
be illegal, but it's on there and people
are choosing for that option. Is is
their brand just not strong enough,
would you say? Like, to to keep people
wanting to just spend that higher number
and have that status symbol of the
little Lululemon logo. When you choose
your customers, you choose your future.
When you choose your competition, you
choose your future. And when you choose
your marketplace, you choose your
future. So
if you show up on a crowded corner where
everybody's selling stolen goods on
bridge tables and you say, "No, no,
mine's really much better. It's
$30,000." You're not going to sell any.
You made the choice to set up on that
street corner.
So Lululemon, my friend Steph Corker
helped build that company. Lululemon did
some brilliant, brilliant marketing and
business decisions. But that doesn't
mean they're entitled to charge what
they charge to every single human on the
planet. It doesn't last forever. The
story they told, the change they seek to
make, they got all the yoga moms, right?
So now, if they want to go to the next
circle, they've got some challenges. And
we can't as marketers be entitled. We
have to be empathic. We have to say,
"Yeah, you're right. If I were in your
shoes, if I had the income you have and
the story I told myself about my income
that you were telling yourself, there's
no way in the world I would buy
Lululemon. Of course, I'd buy this
knockoff. It's the right thing for them
to do. Everyone does the right thing for
them to do if they are informed."
And so the challenge you have is how do
you inform people so that based on who
they are and what they believe and what
they see, they will make the choice that
you're hoping they will make. But it's
not going to happen because you tell
them they're wrong.
>> So are you saying that the people that
would buy the product on Amazon aren't
really your audience anyways that you're
trying to attract? I'm saying that
when you show up with the story you've got,
got,
people are going to make a choice. And
if they're making a choice that isn't
the choice you want them to make,
there's nothing wrong with them. There's
something wrong with your story.
>> I see. And then I just want to take it
back to what you were saying about the
smallest viable audience. Is it possible
to go too narrow? Is that ever a scenario?
scenario?
>> Depends on what you want, right? So if
you want to write a deeply literary
novel that is depressing and elliptical
and intellectual,
please don't be disappointed that it
doesn't sell 10 million copies.
>> You can't have both.
And if you can find the 5,000 people who
say this novel changed me, I think you
should be happy and say that's enough
because it matched the genre. It matched
the possibility. Right? Don't go build a
giant factory and hire thousands of
people to turn out these novels and then
be disappointed that you didn't sell 10
million. So, in general,
my theory is this. Find the 10 perfect people.
people.
If it doesn't work for them, make
something better. If it does work for
them, perhaps they'll tell the others.
If they tell the others, you grow. And
some things people don't want to talk
about. They don't want to talk about the
fact that they signed up for pren
cremation and that they're going to save
their family all this money a thousand
years from now when they're dead, right?
You're just going to have a lot of
trouble turning that into a purple cow
because people don't want to talk about
it. On the other hand, there are lots of
things that people do want to talk
about. One of the my favorite examples,
I am too old to tell you the name of the
brand, but you guys will know. There are
these people who make the little stars
for folks with zits to put on their face.
face.
>> It's amazing. You see those out in
public now all the time. I think when we
were in elementary school
>> would have been great.
>> No, it would have been great, but I
think that people at that time maybe
wouldn't have wouldn't have adopted it.
I feel like it became like a thing because
because
>> I feel like there was this like I don't
give a [ __ ] mentality of like if it's on
my Yeah, I have a pimple. Like everyone
has pimples, you know?
>> Yeah. It was brilliant. Absolutely
brilliant. And where you get that lesson
is from Alcoholics Anonymous.
>> First, it's not anonymous. Nobody knows
who's in charge. They have no ad
campaign. But everyone knows what
Alcoholics Anonymous is. And how do we
know? We know because an alcoholic told
us. And so what they did was they
created a status loop for people who
needed help, who wanted to offer help in
return. And people talked about it. So
when you find this thing that's causing
some people shame and you can figure out
how to build a story around it that can
turn it into pride and affirmation, you
can build a whole brand around that.
>> If someone's listening to this episode
and they have a brand and they're
thinking to themselves, man, I don't
really have any strategy when it comes
to marketing. I'm kind of just winging
it. I'm doing it the same way I've been
doing it for the past decade. It's
worked, but maybe I see bigger things
for me. What would you say are those few
key questions they should ask themselves
or how can they go about auditing the
way they're running their business to
then start implementing a strategy when
it comes to marketing?
>> Yeah, it's a great question. That's what
my last book is about. That's why I
called it this is strategy and I made a
Udemy course too. The I and there are no
secrets here. There are four big ideas.
Time, systems, games, and empathy. Time
because tomorrow is different than
today. What are you doing today that
tomorrow will thank you for as opposed
to racing around to do today's
checklist? Systems, which we could talk
about for four hours, is the invisible
conspiracy that runs everything. Like
the TV industrial complex and the
wedding industrial complex and the
college industrial complex. If you got a
six-year-old and they bring home a
report card, their first report card
ever, do you give them feedback on their
grades? Why? They're six,
right? You give them feedback on their
grades because you've been sucked into
the college industrial complex and
you're already grooming them to get into
Harvard and we think that's normal, but
it's not games because any situation
where there's humans and scarcity is a
game. So if you want to build a direct
to consumer razor business, you got to
compete with Gillette and Schick and
Harry's. If you do this, what are they
going to do? It's a game. And the last
one is empathy, which is the people you
seek to serve. what do they believe?
Because they don't care what you believe
one bit, but they care a lot about what
they believe. And if you can get clear
about that, then you can be of service.
Have you always looked at everything you
do as a game or is that something that
came later on? Because I I find myself
heavily gamifying like everything that I
do. Otherwise, I can't even get myself
to do stuff. I'm like, dude, if you go
to the gym 5 days this week, I don't
know. I'll make a a weird award up that
I get, but like I get get a gold noodle
star and maybe we can go get ice cream.
But, you know, and I think that that's
really like helped me and I I feel like there
there
>> there's always a game within the game as
well. I'd love for you to tell us a
little bit more about that principle.
>> Okay. So, board games are different than games.
games. >> Yes.
>> Yes.
>> And Monopoly is a stupid game, but board games,
games,
we use words like gify and stuff. That's
not what I'm talking about. >> Okay.
>> Okay.
>> Um, I started thinking this way when I
was 12. My dad was my hockey coach and
one of the drills, I was the scrawny
little kid, easily bullied. One of the
drills was there'd be two people on the
little red circle and he'd throw the
puck in the corner and one person would
have to go and take it that way and one
person would have to go and take it that
way. And I realized that if I got there
a half a step slower than the other
person, I could knock them into the
boards instead of them knocking me into
the boards. And so I would play the game
of how and it took them like two weeks
for them to realize what I was doing. So
then they started slowing down and
finally my dad said I had to stop doing
that. But the point is that's a game and
it's a game to get into business school
and it's a game to make a sale and it's
a game to fix climate change because
these are really important issues. But
we have players and we have rules and we
have scarcity and we have strategies. So
you don't have to take it personally
when you fail. You can just say, "I made
the wrong moves." That doesn't mean
you're a bad person, right? I didn't get
into Harvard. How come I I'm an idiot.
No, it's not cuz you're an idiot. It's
cuz you didn't play the game the way the
other people played the game. They saw a
system that you didn't see and that's
how they got in.
>> Earlier in this conversation, you
brought up trust. And a word that is
often associated with trust is being
authentic online. But I know that you
claim that being authentic is [ __ ] [ __ ]
[ __ ]
and you would rather be consistent. And
I would love to talk about this because
I just I would love to hear you talk
about it and then I'd love to have some
discourse a little bit back and forth
because I I see where you're coming
from, but I I also not that I disagree,
but I'm just curious to hear your take
and then I'd love to talk a little bit
about it.
>> It's such a trap. I don't know why it's
stuck around for so long. If you're
truly authentic and you get rejected,
you've been actually rejected. If you're
truly authentic and you don't feel like
it, then you shouldn't do it. If you are
acting like a jerk and you say, "Well, I
was just being authentic." The fact is
you were still acting like a jerk. So,
what we want in every interaction except
from a Kardashian is consistency, not authenticity.
authenticity.
And consistency is make a promise and
keep it. That we want Coca-Cola to be
consistently Coca-Cola. And we want our
chiropractor to be consistently our
chiropractor. And if we have surgery, we
don't want to have bad surgery because
the person was authentically in a bad
mood. Come on. We want a professional.
And professionals are consistent. So, if
you think I talk to people in my life
like I'm talking to you all the time
like this, that's crazy. I am playing
the role of Seth Goden, the author,
today. That's my job. I am being
consistent at that. We're not having a
conversation here about whether I have a
little scrape on my foot because I
slipped on something. That would be me
whining, but that's not the consistent
Seth Goden you wanted to hear from. I
want to go a little bit deeper on this
and I kind of want to go the route of
personal brand because
>> like with the era of AI that's at our
fingertips. We were talking about this
before and we're saying I feel like why
people gravitate towards our show is
because we are so ourselves on here like
you get the you meet me in person you're
going to be yes Ste if I go and hang out
with my mom am I going to talk to her
about business and all this stuff?
Probably not. like we're going to have a
different level of conversation. But I
think right here we really do put our
best foot forward to be ourselves. And I
think it's why
>> No, no, no. You put your best foot
forward and good for you. There is an alignment
alignment
>> between who you usually are, okay,
>> and the brand you chose to have,
>> right? So what I got a phone call 20
years ago. Would I please audition to be
one of the judges on the launch of Shark
Tank in the United States?
And I had seen the British thing. I
said, "Oh, you want me to be the nasty
judge?" And they were like, "Yeah."
Well, they picked a different bald guy
because I didn't show up. And cuz I
would have broken myself if I had to be
consistently the nasty one cuz it's not
who I am. So yes, please build a
personal brand that rhymes with who you
are comfortable being. I'm not saying
you should be a fraud. It's too hard
>> to consistently be a fraud.
>> I'm saying you should pick a brand where
you can show up consistently in a way
that rhymes with who you want to be, but
you're not allowed to phone it in or be
a jerk and claim it's cuz you were being authentic.
authentic.
>> Totally. I totally understand what
you're saying.
>> Yeah. I guess my mind was like if you're
um you know if you preach uh health and
wellness and positivity,
my mind was going to oh, you can't share
that you're having a bad day or you
missed a workout or you ate pizza. Um
that's kind of where my mind initially
went to. But I totally understand.
>> I'm saying I'm sorry to interrupt, but
I'm saying something really different
than that. that Tony Robbins can consistently
consistently
talk about the times he hasn't been the
pinup child for any of his things.
That's part of the brand. >> Yes.
>> Yes.
>> Right. And so, yes, we're all
hypocrites. We shouldn't hide all of our hypocrisy,
hypocrisy,
>> but we should lean into the parts that
we can maintain over time.
>> Makes a lot of sense. Yeah. Thank you
for clarifying that. I I have so many
more, but I want to get you out of here
in the respect.
>> Yeah, we do want to respect your time.
>> Yeah. So, thank you so much. Seriously,
for for coming to hang out with us
today. It was awesome.
>> An absolute pleasure.
>> The first ever 505 pod post pod debrief.
>> I'm here for it on the couch.
>> I think this couch from what everyone
said, I mean, this this is where we need
to be hanging out.
>> What would you rank this couch on
comfiness level?
>> 94. Yeah,
>> it's up there.
>> Feels nice.
>> And I think that this is what we're
going to strive for as we build out the
new set. >> Totally.
>> Totally.
>> We talked to you guys about this. We're
going to Texas. When you listen to this,
we'll be in Texas,
>> I believe. So,
>> yeah. To to film with the three rocks.
We got Guzman, Heidi Summers, Max
Tuning. It's going to be really hell
>> of a lineup.
>> Really fun lineup. But we need to talk
about this episode.
>> We sure do.
>> Okay. I think it was really interesting
to hear about how a lot of what started
in Seth's career in the very beginning
hasn't changed a ton.
>> No, I think how he thinks about
marketing hasn't changed. just the way
that people get out their message and
promote their product or service has changed.
changed.
>> Yes. And I think something that we've
heard him talk about in TED talks and in
his books is this concept of being
remarkable and in a sea full of crap is
what he was talking about like
everything is so mediocre that what
people are putting out the messages
they're just sharing the same
regurgitated information over and over
again. If you are remarkable, you will
cut through the noise and people will
share your message for you. >> Absolutely.
>> Absolutely.
>> And I mean, I even think about it with
as we were trying to build out our pod,
I was like, Kosis, we weren't remarkable
obviously to start. We were we were
thought we were, but we we were
definitely not remarkable.
>> You talked to Kosis and Fig episode 8.
We had the biggest and best show on the internet.
internet.
>> We were like, this could be this could
be number one. Why are we not topping
the charts?
>> Why are we getting 200 views? It doesn't
make any sense.
>> I think though at the forefront of our
brains as we were making the show was
always though to try to provide you guys
with so much value. Regardless of who it
was that we had on, we were trying to
extract information to then hopefully
help you build your business, enhance
your creativity, and do something that's
going to better your life in some way,
shape, or form. And I think now that's
like that's still working. That's not
like a that's not a new thing. like
people that share great information that
impacts you. Like those are the people
that I talk about. Those are people that
I go share their message and spread
their word for them. I think there's a
book I read a really long time ago. It
was like it's called like Maven or it
maybe was had the topic of this word
Maven and it essentially was people
spreading your word for you and going
out and like you know if I had a great a
great show with you guys or if I had a
great hangout session with the two rocks
I'm going to go out and tell a friend
because I'm like this was so impactful
and I really liked this one part from
this guest or something like that. And
with anything that you do, the people
that are spreading it word of mouth are
your strongest people that you need to
be thinking about and taking care of. I
even think about Blue Stripe and like my
company and the people that come to me
and say, "Hey, we chatted with this
person." There's no sale that has to
happen there. I don't have to sell
ourselves at all. It's like, "Oh, I know
Mike. Mike really liked you guys. Spoke
very highly of you. We want to do work
for you guys." Absolutely. And it's like
there there needs to be no nothing needs
to be said besides the fact of this is
what we do. How can I help you guys? You
know, and it's such a different dynamic
than having to go out and be like, "Oh,
hey, this do you need stuff? Like, can
we help you?" I also think taking it one
step further, every time you guys do a
shoot and you guys bring on people,
it's kind of an audition to work with
you guys again. and the people who are
remarkable at their job and that you
guys enjoy working with, you guys are
going to call them back. And so at level
one, being remarkable, like Seth talked
about, is the best marketing strategy
you can have because even regardless of
how saturated a market is, if something
comes out that is just the best, there's
always room for it. You see content
creators popping up all the time or new
businesses popping up all the time and
their content's just better or their
product's just better and they're
marketed in an interesting way and they
stand out. They break through the noise.
And I think
like you brought up on the podcast, in a
world with AI, the last podcast we did
was about AI and how so much more
content is going to be coming out. I
think at the very
start, at at the very basic level, how
can you be as remarkable as possible?
And you brought up our podcast when we
were first starting out. Our show in our
eyes has improved a lot since we first
started. And I think that it can be
really daunting when you're first starting
starting
>> to think that that remarkable word kind
of freaks you out a little bit. you're
like, "How am I supposed to be number
one or the best out there if I'm just
getting started?" And I want to remind
people listening to this,
you get better as you go. And sometimes
we can let perfection get in the way of
us even starting in the first place.
Every single person, Seth included, or
every every, you know, every business
owner or every creator that you look up
to started somewhere.
>> They were all ass.
>> Exactly. And so, like, we look back at
episode one of the show and it's nowhere
near what it is today. Um, and so don't
let that word remarkable
stop you or scare you from starting in
the first place. Start where you are and
continue to improve every single day and
you can work up to being remarkable. You
can't be afraid to fail. I love that he
shared the story of him getting kicked
out of the publishing industry because
that shows you someone like him who's
had 21 bestsellers has had failures in
his life still. And you might look at
Seth who's been doing it for 30, 40
years, and you kind of put him on a
pedestal, but you have to remind
yourself that, you know, maybe he wasn't
as remarkable as he is today when he was
first starting out, but he started somewhere.
somewhere.
>> I was thinking as you were saying that
about LeBron James's uh company, it's
like strive for greatness. And I think
that's what you got to remind yourself
at the very beginning is you are
striving for greatness and you're trying
to get better every single time. Like I
remember when we first did the show,
that's what we would talk about is like,
"Oh, what if we did uh what if we lit it
like this or what if we had like this
mic setup or what could we do with the
cameras?" And even in my agency when we
do shoots, Reef and I love doing this
after and I read this in a book
somewhere and I've taken it. I don't
remember what their company did, but
after the shoot, we call each other and
we were like, "Wow, what did we [ __ ] up
and what was exceptional?" And like can
we fix any of these things that are
[ __ ] up or some of them we just have
to like deal with that and try to figure
out ways to work around it. And every
time we do a shoot I think we do get
literally like five times better because
there is this review process of talking
about the entire day. What could the
producer have done differently? What
could I have done to know my shots
better or what could you have said to
the talent that maybe made us not flow
or whatever the heck the thing may be.
Having that type of want to get better
just makes everything so much better in
the grand scheme of things. And like
look at how much our show has 10xed with
just overall like everything. I mean now
if you're if you're watching these ones
from Texas like now we have three camera
angles and one of them doesn't shut off
every 30 [ __ ] minutes.
>> Using a ZV1 is not ideal for a long form podcast.
podcast.
>> It is not the vibe and we're trying.
Also, okay, for all my camera people out there,
there,
>> ZVE1, they market it as having the same
sensor as an FX3, and it's [ __ ]
>> You know what that is?
>> Cap. Look at that.
>> Cap, dude.
>> Dude, [ __ ] cap. Okay,
>> Cap City.
>> We've tested it multiple times. The ZV1,
great [ __ ] camera, okay? Does not
produce the same level of image quality
as an FX3. It doesn't.
>> It does not. It doesn't.
>> So, Sony, stop saying that, okay? we
love you, but you're kind of capping.
>> Another thing that he talked about was
how the size of the audience is totally
irrelevant. And we see that with these
huge Tik Tockers or people that, you
know, are really big on short form most
of the time. It doesn't translate to
in-person and it doesn't translate to
YouTube. We see we've seen that time and
time again. Like people want to be on a
long form place whether it's a podcast
whether it's a YouTube channel. They
want you to go over there because we all
know like you guys listening we all know
this. That is where you want your
community to be to be at cuz there's so
much more connection that can develop
over 20 plus minutes rather than 30
seconds. Like people just forget. And
think about I mean when you're scrolling
we're scrolling for like a consistent
period of time. You're not scrolling
you're not being like I'm scrolling for
5 minutes right now. You're just kind of
mindlessly going through there and maybe
you save something, but think about how
much [ __ ] we've all saved. >> Yeah.
>> Yeah.
>> Do you go back to it real often? Not
super often, right? Like
>> the amount of recipes I have saved on
TikTok is absurd. I think you're right,
though. I think he brought up the idea
of focusing on false proxies, meaning
you're focusing on the wrong metrics.
So, when it comes to social media,
you're really focused on how many
followers you have or how many likes and
views you have when instead you should
be really focusing on what's the
conversation like in your comments and
are people sharing your stuff, your
content with other people. He brought up
the fact that marketing is creating
conditions for people to spread the word
about your product or service to other
people. Word of mouth. I think in a
digital world where so many of us are on
Instagram and social media in general,
the equivalent to that is the share
button. So if you can create content or
create a product that people want to
share with other people or share on
their story or share in the DMs,
that is in my mind the digital
equivalent of word of mouth marketing. I
think so, too. And we've seen it with
the posts that do well for both of us
and and for the pod. If something gets shares,
shares,
>> we know it's going to go off. We know
it's going to do super well. If if it's
that first 20, 30 minutes and there's
not one share, you know, the thing's not
going to do super well. And then on top
of that, I would argue, okay, me and you
both maybe don't have the most amount of
followers compared to other creators out
there, or our podcast doesn't have as
many subscribers or might not get as
many views as the next podcast out
there. But I would argue that if we do
an in-person event, people are willing
to come out and support us and hang out
with us because of the trust that we've
built and being consistent and keeping
that promise like he talks about over a
consistent and long period of time. And
so that was something that was very
interesting just the trust being built
with your group. And dude, trust is one
of those things that takes 10 years to
build and 10 seconds to lose.
>> Yeah. like you see it time and time
again with either a quick cash grab um
you know during the I'm not even going
to get into it but there there's been a
lot of people that we've noticed in social
social
>> that have had things happen that they've
said or
>> just done one stupid like ridiculously
stupid thing and you're like what what
was going through you guys not have
anyone to talk to about this >> dude
>> dude
>> it's unbelievable
>> yeah it's crazy
>> it's insane
when he brought up or when we brought up
the fact that he believes authenticity
is [ __ ]
>> This was this was this is really interesting.
interesting.
>> So authenticity is [ __ ] and
consistency is more important in his eyes.
eyes. >> Now
>> Now
>> me and Braden were talking before the
pod. I go I'm going to call him out cuz
I think that is ridiculous. I didn't
understand really what he was saying.
Now I have a better understanding and I
believe him to be true.
him saying that he's different online or
when he's like promoting himself or
having a talk. He's
he's a different version of himself.
He's still himself. It's still quote
unquote authentic to him.
>> That's what I was going to say though.
He's still being authentic,
>> but maybe it's just a slightly different
version of him. And what he said in
rebuttal to that is, I'm not telling you
to be a fraud. I'm telling you to be who
you are, who you show up online or in
person, and be that person consistently.
The word for that is constancy.
>> We love this word. Constancy is super
important, which is it means keeping the
promise, staying consistent. Whatever
message you're saying, saying it
consistently over and over over a long
period of time. That's what constencancy
is. And constancy is what builds trust.
And trust is what makes people show up
for you in person and want to buy your products.
products.
>> That is the best I've ever heard you
explain what that word is.
>> Dude, I feel like I'm kind of flowing.
>> I feel like you got that word down,
>> dude. Yeah. I remember I see that word.
I'm like,
>> "What the [ __ ] does constancy mean?"
>> They spelled consistency wrong.
>> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
>> You know what I mean? >> Uh,
>> Uh,
>> what else?
>> What else we got here? Let's see. >> Oh, okay.
>> Oh, okay. >> Wait, wait, wait, wait. Okay, go.
>> Wait, wait, wait, wait. Okay, go. >> We were thinking about this. Um,
>> We were thinking about this. Um, obviously you want people to share your
obviously you want people to share your stuff and creating conditions for people
stuff and creating conditions for people to share your stuff. Word of mouth is
to share your stuff. Word of mouth is number one. I I don't think there beats
number one. I I don't think there beats anything nothing's more powerful than
anything nothing's more powerful than somebody you [ __ ] with telling you about
somebody you [ __ ] with telling you about something that they [ __ ] with and you're
something that they [ __ ] with and you're like, "Okay, I got to go check it out."
like, "Okay, I got to go check it out." Whether it's another creator or a
Whether it's another creator or a product,
product, >> clothing product,
>> clothing product, >> absolutely.
>> absolutely. >> I think as a business who has a physical
>> I think as a business who has a physical product, if you're listening to this and
product, if you're listening to this and a business owner, you can create
a business owner, you can create conditions for people to want to share
conditions for people to want to share your product. So, if you have a clothing
your product. So, if you have a clothing brand, what does the package look like
brand, what does the package look like when you send somebody your t-shirt or
when you send somebody your t-shirt or your pants or your shorts? You're
your pants or your shorts? You're sending out a PR package to maybe a
sending out a PR package to maybe a group of influencers or you're doing a
group of influencers or you're doing a pop-up or you're doing a popup event. Do
pop-up or you're doing a popup event. Do you have moments that people can capture
you have moments that people can capture and then want to share on their social
and then want to share on their social media and share your message or product
media and share your message or product for you? And I think yes, you want to be
for you? And I think yes, you want to be remarkable because the the easiest way
remarkable because the the easiest way to have people talk about you is to be
to have people talk about you is to be [ __ ] great, but from a more tactical
[ __ ] great, but from a more tactical standpoint, I think you can create
standpoint, I think you can create moments for yourself as a business to
moments for yourself as a business to have people spread the message for you.
have people spread the message for you. >> I even think about when we had taken a
>> I even think about when we had taken a hiatus, maybe it was after like our
hiatus, maybe it was after like our first season. When we came back, we had
first season. When we came back, we had posted like a graphic and so many people
posted like a graphic and so many people shared that graphic for us of like we're
shared that graphic for us of like we're coming back for season two and tried to
coming back for season two and tried to build up a little bit of hype around us
build up a little bit of hype around us just coming back to the show and you
just coming back to the show and you guys really did help us. And like you
guys really did help us. And like you have no idea how many new people
have no idea how many new people probably saw it and was like, "What the
probably saw it and was like, "What the heck is this?" And maybe they check it
heck is this?" And maybe they check it out, maybe they don't, but at least
out, maybe they don't, but at least we're doing our best to create the
we're doing our best to create the condition for these ideas or our pod to
condition for these ideas or our pod to spread. Um, I think of somebody when we
spread. Um, I think of somebody when we think about this, I think of our good
think about this, I think of our good buddy Sam Newton.
buddy Sam Newton. >> Okay,
>> Okay, >> he's got a good amount of subscribers on
>> he's got a good amount of subscribers on YouTube.
YouTube. He makes incredible work when it comes
He makes incredible work when it comes to like the travel film space. He's
to like the travel film space. He's remarkable at that. He's able to have
remarkable at that. He's able to have 500 people come out and come from all
500 people come out and come from all over, not just LA, come from out of
over, not just LA, come from out of town, fly in to come to his film
town, fly in to come to his film festival.
festival. And I would argue that there's some
And I would argue that there's some other creators who have more subscribers
other creators who have more subscribers than him that can't pull in that many
than him that can't pull in that many people to come see them in person
people to come see them in person because Sam has done such a great job of
because Sam has done such a great job of being remarkable and staying consistent
being remarkable and staying consistent over a long period of time. And then
over a long period of time. And then another thing that he's talked about
another thing that he's talked about like you just brought up is maybe he
like you just brought up is maybe he doesn't post for a week or two or maybe
doesn't post for a week or two or maybe takes a month off cuz he's feeling burnt
takes a month off cuz he's feeling burnt out or whatever. his audience is still
out or whatever. his audience is still going to be there for him when he comes
going to be there for him when he comes back. And that's the scariest thing as a
back. And that's the scariest thing as a creator because we constantly feel like
creator because we constantly feel like we need to be pumping out content to
we need to be pumping out content to stay quote unquote relevant and you're
stay quote unquote relevant and you're on this hamster wheel. But the more
on this hamster wheel. But the more remarkable you are, I think about
remarkable you are, I think about somebody like Tarantino, right? You
somebody like Tarantino, right? You think about these big directors.
think about these big directors. They're taking
They're taking years
years between creating new films, but because
between creating new films, but because their films are so [ __ ] good,
their films are so [ __ ] good, >> they're also very they're very unique,
>> they're also very they're very unique, too. You go to like Tarantino or
too. You go to like Tarantino or Christopher Nolan's films, and they're
Christopher Nolan's films, and they're different. They're different than all
different. They're different than all the stuff that we get fed on Netflix on
the stuff that we get fed on Netflix on on a weekly basis. They have a different
on a weekly basis. They have a different look and feel to them. there. You can
look and feel to them. there. You can tell that there's so much craftsmanship
tell that there's so much craftsmanship that has gone into making the thing
that has gone into making the thing happen and putting it on this big screen
happen and putting it on this big screen in front of us to watch and then you go
in front of us to watch and then you go talk about it to your friends. Like we
talk about it to your friends. Like we we spread the word for them.
we spread the word for them. I saw
I saw Oh my god, who did I see talk about
Oh my god, who did I see talk about this? Denzel Washington.
this? Denzel Washington. >> Okay. Oh, I know exactly what you're
>> Okay. Oh, I know exactly what you're talking about.
talking about. >> I believe he gave Michael B. Jordan this
>> I believe he gave Michael B. Jordan this piece of advice where he said you need
piece of advice where he said you need to give your audience
to give your audience >> time to miss you.
>> time to miss you. >> And
>> And >> you think this only works though for
>> you think this only works though for like A-list actors cuz I feel like could
like A-list actors cuz I feel like could you imag Bro if we went away for 2
you imag Bro if we went away for 2 months no one would give a [ __ ]
months no one would give a [ __ ] >> Yeah.
>> Yeah. >> They'd be like they'd move on to the
>> They'd be like they'd move on to the next thing. But it's an interesting
next thing. But it's an interesting point of like
point of like >> it's an interesting thing for the I feel
>> it's an interesting thing for the I feel like for these actors or actresses to
like for these actors or actresses to not be as public facing cuz it makes you
not be as public facing cuz it makes you want to like they're in a movie. You're
want to like they're in a movie. You're like, "Oh, I want to go see them."
like, "Oh, I want to go see them." >> Yeah, scratch that shitty advice. If
>> Yeah, scratch that shitty advice. If you're making content, stay consistent.
you're making content, stay consistent. >> That was probably some of the worst
>> That was probably some of the worst advice you've ever given.
advice you've ever given. >> But I think the the thesis of it might
>> But I think the the thesis of it might be fair.
be fair. If you're an actor or an actress,
If you're an actor or an actress, >> the more remarkable you are, the less
>> the more remarkable you are, the less maybe super [ __ ] in somebody's face
maybe super [ __ ] in somebody's face you need to be.
you need to be. >> Like if you came out once a month and it
>> Like if you came out once a month and it was a movie.
was a movie. >> Yeah. You'd give you give them you'd
>> Yeah. You'd give you give them you'd give them the grace to to be like
give them the grace to to be like >> you think okay you take somebody like
>> you think okay you take somebody like Sam Cer.
Sam Cer. >> That's exactly who I was thinking of.
>> That's exactly who I was thinking of. >> Sam Cer I mean [ __ ] remarkable
>> Sam Cer I mean [ __ ] remarkable YouTuber filmmaker.
YouTuber filmmaker. >> Twice a year we get blessed with a
>> Twice a year we get blessed with a little video.
little video. >> Yeah. or somebody like uh do you watch
>> Yeah. or somebody like uh do you watch Andreas Hem?
Andreas Hem? >> Yeah. Andreas would go he'd be like guys
>> Yeah. Andreas would go he'd be like guys I'm doing a daily vlog on YouTube and
I'm doing a daily vlog on YouTube and then be gone.
then be gone. >> So that's a perfect example of like
>> So that's a perfect example of like YouTube creators.
YouTube creators. >> It was a movie every time.
>> It was a movie every time. >> Exactly. So I guess the more time you
>> Exactly. So I guess the more time you take between pieces of content, the more
take between pieces of content, the more [ __ ] remarkable you better be or else
[ __ ] remarkable you better be or else people ain't tuning in. The purple cow
people ain't tuning in. The purple cow theory was something I want to briefly
theory was something I want to briefly touch on because I had read that book
touch on because I had read that book quite a bit of time ago. But
quite a bit of time ago. But in a sea of sameness, when everyone's
in a sea of sameness, when everyone's zigging, you got to be the rock that
zigging, you got to be the rock that zags. You know, you see like
zags. You know, you see like specifically right now cuz I've been on
specifically right now cuz I've been on LinkedIn quite a bit and every single
LinkedIn quite a bit and every single >> Hold on. Wait.
>> Hold on. Wait. >> Huh?
>> Huh? >> Our dog.
>> Our dog. >> It's empty.
>> It's empty. >> Oh, okay. Thought I thought our dog was
>> Oh, okay. Thought I thought our dog was good. I've been on LinkedIn quite a bit
good. I've been on LinkedIn quite a bit right now and it's very similar stuff,
right now and it's very similar stuff, dude. Like all the stuff feels the exact
dude. Like all the stuff feels the exact same. And I noticed the people that I
same. And I noticed the people that I actually do enjoy like reading some of
actually do enjoy like reading some of their posts,
their posts, >> they feel very handwritten. They don't
>> they feel very handwritten. They don't feel like something that is AI
feel like something that is AI generated. And you can tell like you can
generated. And you can tell like you can tell immediately, dude, people don't
tell immediately, dude, people don't talk how they talk on LinkedIn. So, I
talk how they talk on LinkedIn. So, I think that the people that I really
think that the people that I really enjoy watching are very candid and like
enjoy watching are very candid and like they'll have a typo or something. It's
they'll have a typo or something. It's it just feels like a much more human
it just feels like a much more human interaction rather than some [ __ ] that's
interaction rather than some [ __ ] that's like, "What's up, man? I'm Corporate Ben
like, "What's up, man? I'm Corporate Ben and I'm here to I'm here to help you
and I'm here to I'm here to help you learn how to market today."
learn how to market today." >> It's just not the same. Like,
>> It's just not the same. Like, >> you feel like an accent just comes
>> you feel like an accent just comes through when you're typing.
through when you're typing. >> I'm just like, it comes right here. You
>> I'm just like, it comes right here. You know, it it's just a different kind of
know, it it's just a different kind of feel on there.
feel on there. >> I get you.
>> I get you. >> You know what I'm saying?
>> You know what I'm saying? >> I get you, brother. I think uh the
>> I get you, brother. I think uh the purple cow theory is is interesting and
purple cow theory is is interesting and I totally agree. It's like if you saw a
I totally agree. It's like if you saw a purple cow in a field of a ton of cows,
purple cow in a field of a ton of cows, you're going to point out the purple cow
you're going to point out the purple cow cuz it's different and it's unique. I
cuz it's different and it's unique. I also think if the cow was twice the size
also think if the cow was twice the size of the other cows, you're also going to
of the other cows, you're also going to point it out. And I think of that as yo,
point it out. And I think of that as yo, if your [ __ ] is just so much [ __ ]
if your [ __ ] is just so much [ __ ] better than the next guy, if you were
better than the next guy, if you were looking for an editor to hire, if you
looking for an editor to hire, if you saw an editor and they were just dirty,
saw an editor and they were just dirty, like they had the sauce, you'd want
like they had the sauce, you'd want them. And it's not necessarily that
them. And it's not necessarily that they're like so unique, they're just so
they're like so unique, they're just so [ __ ] good at what they do, and then
[ __ ] good at what they do, and then they're willing to charge a premium
they're willing to charge a premium because they're that much better at what
because they're that much better at what they do.
they do. We were saying this earlier before we
We were saying this earlier before we started in like in videography and
started in like in videography and photography and podcasting like those
photography and podcasting like those are super saturated niches. Maybe when
are super saturated niches. Maybe when we started it wasn't like this like
we started it wasn't like this like back, you know, 10 years ago. Now it's
back, you know, 10 years ago. Now it's super saturated. But I'll still see a
super saturated. But I'll still see a random person pop up and I'm like, "This
random person pop up and I'm like, "This is different. This is totally
is different. This is totally different." And I bet they're booked all
different." And I bet they're booked all the time. And if they're not, give me a
the time. And if they're not, give me a call.
call. >> Yeah.
>> Yeah. >> Please.
>> Please. >> Absolutely.
>> Absolutely. >> Can hire you for stuff.
>> Can hire you for stuff. >> Yeah. It's so interesting though because
>> Yeah. It's so interesting though because the amount of DMs now that I get on
the amount of DMs now that I get on LinkedIn and on Instagram that are like,
LinkedIn and on Instagram that are like, "Hey man, can you check out this edit?"
"Hey man, can you check out this edit?" Like, "I'm an editor." They all suck.
like, "Okay, [ __ ] me." >> What time's our pod with him?
>> What time's our pod with him? >> I think our pod with him is like 11:00
>> I think our pod with him is like 11:00 and then we got like an hour break in
and then we got like an hour break in between him and Heidi and then we do Max
between him and Heidi and then we do Max on Friday.
on Friday. >> Okay.
>> Okay. >> Dude, I hit a bomb last night.
>> Dude, I hit a bomb last night. >> Dude, you did. You went [ __ ] bummed,
>> Dude, you did. You went [ __ ] bummed, >> guys. Roll the clip.
>> guys. Roll the clip. >> You have no idea how far I hit this
>> You have no idea how far I hit this ball,
ball, >> dude. Wooden bat, too.
>> dude. Wooden bat, too. >> Come on.
>> Come on. >> Like 360.
>> Like 360. >> I feel like
>> I feel like >> I think I could have a chance. Dude,
>> I think I could have a chance. Dude, >> is there ability to walk on to like a
>> is there ability to walk on to like a single A team?
single A team? >> That'd be a funny piece of content.
>> That'd be a funny piece of content. >> Oh, no. That's what I'm saying. That's
>> Oh, no. That's what I'm saying. That's why I would want to do it.
why I would want to do it. >> Just show up to spring training.
>> Just show up to spring training. >> I like go up to the coach after like,
>> I like go up to the coach after like, "What did you rank me?" He's like 350.
"What did you rank me?" He's like 350. I'm like, "How many guys are here?" He's
I'm like, "How many guys are here?" He's like
like >> 340.
Show my show with my bat and glove. What an insane story arc from
an insane story arc from >> from Lakers videographer to podcaster to
>> from Lakers videographer to podcaster to double baseball player.
double baseball player. >> Yeah. Something about like crossing over
>> Yeah. Something about like crossing over those lines
those lines >> feel different, man. Be like, "Dude, I
>> feel different, man. Be like, "Dude, I was once I was the filmer guy." Yeah.
was once I was the filmer guy." Yeah. >> And dude, I would dap up all the camera
>> And dude, I would dap up all the camera guys.
guys. >> Maybe that could be that could be the
>> Maybe that could be that could be the story arc of the year.
story arc of the year. >> Yeah. Make sure to get my angle right.
>> Yeah. Make sure to get my angle right. Okay. Make sure that shit's in focus.
Okay. Make sure that shit's in focus. It's the right side.
It's the right side. >> I'm going yard right now.
>> I'm going yard right now. >> Could you could you switch that into 60
>> Could you could you switch that into 60 for me?
for me? >> What's the frame rate? You're going to
>> What's the frame rate? You're going to want this slow down. Okay, this one's
want this slow down. Okay, this one's going in the dock.
going in the dock. >> Anyways,
>> Anyways, >> God, this is fun. This is a great pod.
>> God, this is fun. This is a great pod. >> If you guys want Okay, the reason, full
>> If you guys want Okay, the reason, full transparency, the reason we're doing the
transparency, the reason we're doing the pod debrief is cuz we only had 45
pod debrief is cuz we only had 45 minutes with Mr. Seth.
minutes with Mr. Seth. >> If you guys [ __ ] with the pod debriefs,
>> If you guys [ __ ] with the pod debriefs, let us know because
let us know because >> I feel like we should do these. I feel
>> I feel like we should do these. I feel like this is a fun
like this is a fun >> 25 to 40 minute little postpod chat.
>> 25 to 40 minute little postpod chat. >> It also allow if you're OG, you know
>> It also allow if you're OG, you know that we used to do rock talk at the
that we used to do rock talk at the beginning for like 10, 15 minutes, then
beginning for like 10, 15 minutes, then get into the episodes. This kind of
get into the episodes. This kind of allows us to [ __ ] a little bit.
allows us to [ __ ] a little bit. >> We can talk about our lives.
>> We can talk about our lives. >> Yeah. And it doesn't even have to be 25,
>> Yeah. And it doesn't even have to be 25, 30 minutes. It could be
30 minutes. It could be >> 60 minutes.
>> 60 minutes. >> It could be, you know, a 5 to 10 minute
>> It could be, you know, a 5 to 10 minute debrief. But let us know if you guys
debrief. But let us know if you guys [ __ ] with this and what you guys have
[ __ ] with this and what you guys have been thinking of the episodes as of
been thinking of the episodes as of late.
late. >> Dude, be a rock. Share it with a homie.
>> Dude, be a rock. Share it with a homie. And we'll see you guys all
And we'll see you guys all >> in Texas.
>> in Texas. >> Come on. Let's go.
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