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Ep011: #GoodAncestor Robin DiAngelo on White Fragility | Become A Good Ancestor with Layla Saad | YouTubeToText
YouTube Transcript: Ep011: #GoodAncestor Robin DiAngelo on White Fragility
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Core Theme
This podcast episode explores the concept of "white fragility" and its implications for dismantling white supremacy, emphasizing the importance of self-reflection, accountability, and courageous conversations for achieving racial justice and becoming "good ancestors."
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I'm Layla Saad and my life is driven by
one burning question how can I become a
good ancestor how can I create a legacy
of healing and liberation for those who
are here in this lifetime
and those who will come after I am gone
in my pursuit to answer this question
I'm interviewing changemakers and
culture shapers who are also exploring
that questions themselves in the way
that they live and lead their life it's
my intention that these conversations
will help you find your own answers to
that question to welcome to good
ancestor podcast hello everybody and
welcome back to good ancestor podcast
we're here for season two of the podcast
we've got a whole new look for you we're
now video as well as audio and I'm
really excited that our very first
episode today is with somebody whose
work really has meant a lot to me and
has really been something that I
reference a lot I'm talking about dr.
Robyn D'Angelo and her work on white fragility
fragility
so dr. D'Angelo is affiliate associate
professor of education at the University
of Washington in addition she also holds
two honorary honorary doctorates her
area of research is in whiteness studies
and critical discourse analysis she's a
two-time winner of the students Choice
Award for educator of the year at the
University of Washington's School of
Social Work she has numerous
publications and books including what
does it mean to be white developing
white racial literacy which I have read
this year it's a brilliant book in in
2011 she coined the term white fragility
in an academic article which is
influenced the international dialogue on
race her book white fragility which I
have here
white fragility why it's so hard for
white people to talk about racism was
released in June of 2018 and it debuted
on the New York Times bestseller list in
addition her academic work in addition
to her academic work dr. D'Angelo has
been a consultant and trainer for
20 years on issues of racial and social
justice welcome to good ancestor podcast
robbery so much so good to have you here
so good to have you here so we're gonna
get into a lot of interesting
conversations today we were just
speaking about something that we're both
itching to talk about just before we hit
record but before we dive in there we're
gonna start with our very first question
that I asked every guess which is about
who are the ancestors living or
transitioned familial or societal who
have influenced you on your journey I'm
gonna start with my mother and not
because she influenced me in a direct
social justice way but because she died
when I was a child she was 37 I was 11
she died of leukemia and at that time
you actually didn't talk about cancer we
were told my sisters and I were told not
to tell anyone that our mother had
cancer and up until the day she died we
were told she was getting better and
then after she died we weren't to talk
about it obviously it was a traumatic
experience but I think what has really
influenced the work that I do is that I
recognized very early that there's a
relationship between silence and
suffering that there was suffering going
on and we were to speak of it which only
intensified that suffering so there's
this elephant in the room and it's
called white supremacy and we are
suffering from it in different ways and
I think it's the biggest elephant of all
the elephants and by god I'm going to
talk about it and within that I'm gonna
talk about the hardest part for white
people which is internalized superiority
right so if you've been in a lot of
these kinds of workshops and educational
forums there's a lot of like well what
are white people lose and you know we
need to gain our roots and
we gave up our ethnic identity you know
maybe that works for somebody it's but
white white folks are we're wily you
know we'll do whatever we can to get out
from under Oni our positions and our
investments in them right and so I don't
want to go to what I've lost or the
victimization I want to go to what's the
hardest to look at and that's it
from the time I took my first breath
even before I was born the forces of
white supremacy we're operating on me
and and they basically told me you are
superior and that message circulated and
circulates 24/7 365 and I want to talk
about it is not talking about it
protects it so I would say that that
ancestor and then there are two black
women in particular that were incredible
mentors to me they they never gave up on
me right I mean I started as a clueless
classic white progressive liberal who
thought I knew everything I needed to
know because I was a vegetarian you know
and I just was classic in that way and
by oh I applied for a job to teach other
white people how to be open-minded and I
just was in for the most profound
learning of my life on every level but
those two women I was working
side-by-side with and they they
challenged me in a way I want to call
loving accountability right they loved
me they held that compassion for me and
and they also held me accountable and I
think the reason they were able to stay
in with me and not give up on me it's
not because I didn't run racism at them
because of course I did and I still do
right but because of the way I responded
when it's surfaced and I always struggle
to see it to incorporate the lessons
they were offering me and then to grow
and do different and do better and
because they saw that they hung in with me
me
and then there's ribbons what were their
names their names thank you were our
Deborah Terry Hayes and Darlene Flynn my
my book that you mentioned what does it
mean to be white is dedicated to those
two women there were of course many
other people of color who were powerful
mentors but they I think were just the
strongest for me in the most long term
in terms of a relationship Charles
Wright Mills the racial contract was
really a powerful read for me it's um I
will admit that I have never been able
to get through pedagogy of the oppressed [Music]
[Music]
that is a huge admission I can't get
through it
the racial contract I just consumed you neither
neither
book should just drink it down and he's
a black sociologist I believe he's still
living but he lays out he talks about
white supremacy as the social contract
that underwrites all other so out of confidence
confidence
and yet it's the only social contract
that is not named so we named democracy
we named capitalism we named socialism
fascism and we don't name white
supremacy which under writes all of them
right really powerful and when it is
named it's named as this sort of very
fringe very extreme very rare occurrence
and not that as he said the social
contract that underlies everything else
right it's it's looked at as an event I
have a quote from oh if you look up my
work you'll see the name and I'll try to
find it racism is a system not an event
we look at it as a kind of an event
driven right it occasionally occurs but
only you know by bad people right and we
can get into that but I think the way
that mainstream culture defines racism
couldn't couldn't
it more effectively right right it's
just a perfect way to protect the system
of racism is to reduce it to individual
acts that must be intentional right and
are meant to hurt people across race
right that is why basically nobody's
racist right right you know even Richard
Spencer is not going to own being racist
right right it's so it's so interesting
hearing about the ancestors the living
and the transitions who who've
influenced you on your journey with your mother
mother
it's it was about how what not to do
right how the silence actually creates
the suffering how not speaking this
thing that we think that we that we know
is so terrible yeah what is this idea
that not speaking it will protect us
from it yeah right and it and it doesn't
in the same way as you've said you've
drawn that parallel between you you made
that understanding between that's
exactly how it is with white supremacy
not speaking it doesn't make it go away
it doesn't make it not hurt people and
then with the two black women who you
named when I'd love to get some links to
link to their work if they have any work
in there will include them in the show
notes how they were it sounds like they
were relentlessly they were relentless
in keeping you accountable from a place
of love from I'm gonna guess love for
themselves first yeah and there is a
liberation right for their own
liberation and not from a place of
martyrdom or from a place of walk across
my back you know what did that teach you
about doing anti-racism work as
especially as a white person you know
it's really similar for white people in
the sense of doing this for our
liberation right so there there are
three top questions I get whenever I
give a talk I don't like any of them but
one of them is going to be some version
of how do I tell my coworker about their
how do I tell my family about their
racism and I have learned to just pause
and look at the person and say well how
would I tell you about yours mmm right
because the question presumes that it's
it's not me and I need to go forth and
wake all all these other way people up
and when I'm in those moments of
somebody some other white person has
said something and everybody's cringing
but nobody says anything I think about
it as this is about my healing because
my silence is not healthy for me you
know it colludes with white solidarity
it upholds white supremacy
it protects this person's you know it
privileges their momentary feelings of
embarrassment over freakin racism right
and the calm of racism and I hope they
shift as a result of my speaking but I
can't control that I have to speak
because that's how I heal my
conditioning to collude right and so I
guess I think about it in that way and
I'd like I'd like to assume that when
Deborah and Darlene were speaking it was
like to not collude with their
internalized oppression and their
conditioning to protect and keep white
people comfortable right because whining
it's safer right and so yeah I think
it's a really empowered thing to do hi
everybody I really love that shift in
perspective both for myself as a black
person and for I know that there are
many white people who listen to this
podcast for them to hear it's actually
not about performing I need to show up
as an ally so I need to do this because
I I need to be that Ally but rather it's
time for me to be in integrity and not
collude with with white solidarity I
have to say something regardless of how
it's taken regardless of how its
received or not received I have to do it
for me for me to be an integrity it's
really powerful
thank you and and you know for just that
moment that person also had to be
accountable for what they just said
right whether they liked not I mean
that's kind of a another benefit of it
right right but yeah most you should it
should be for me and you know as I also
said it
it was helpful to me as a black person I
know that as black people and people of
color when we hold white people
accountable that that we're putting
ourselves in a very vulnerable position
because what can happen is white
fragility but a term which you have
coined so I'd love to go into you what
is light fragility give us the very
brief definition and then if you can
give some examples of how it shows up I
think about it as the inability for
white people to handle any kind of
challenge to our positions our
perspectives our assumptions our
behaviors right racially that results
from several different dynamics one is I
think more and more being white is means
not having to bear witness to the pain
of racism on people of color and to not
have to ever be held accountable for the
pain I've caused people of color and so
because I move through a society in
which I'm not held accountable and in
which I am deeply separated from people
of color so I don't bear witness to
their pain I haven't built the capacity
to handle like how uncomfortable that is
right how unsettling that is that's one
piece another piece is straight-up
internalized superiority
you know you will defer to me to use a
kind of a harsh metaphor you will step
off the curb when I walk by you will not
look me in the eye you will stay in your
place and I am in my place till so to
challenge me is to is to again if I may
it is to be uppity right yeah I think
that's inside of us too right
yeah I think also inside of us is a
sincere wish to not cause harm so then
there's guilt I mean this is what makes
white people so frickin irrational I
they're throwing a little individualism
you know and then you know and then
throw in a little universalism that's
right right and yet it's not a it's not
an innocent or benign mess
it's a highly effective right way to
maintain the racial hierarchy in our
positions within it so the fragility
part was to capture how little it takes
for white people to melt down there may
be white people listening right now who
are upset because I'm generalizing about
white people right I and if I just knew
how they speak four languages and you
know their parents this and they die
then I would know that they're different
right so it doesn't take much to cause
us to erupt in umbrage but the impact of
that umbrage that it becomes weaponized
as like whoa you know because it
marshals behind it the weight of history
and institutional control and legal
authority right and so so it's a
weaponized tears and defensiveness right
so I just really it's it's really it's
really destabilizing to be on the
receiving end of it don't you imagine a
gas line right because it's that you
kind of like okay I kind of see that
you're trying to do the right thing but
also wow this is so abusive or violent
or manipulative now and what it does is
it makes me then question am i right or
am I being irrational or am i you know
blowing this out of proportion
it's incredibly destabilizing I the fact
that used the word fragility is just
there's something about it that's so
poignant to me about it
because it's a word that the actual way
that white fragility shows up is very
violent you know I'm just thinking and I
hadn't thought this one.i when it kind
of came out of my mouth in a moment of
frustration again it's not fragile at
all and it's him
no keep like shattered glass yes you
just shatter and then we just cut right
right you know with those shards right
yeah yeah and so I would love to hear
about you getting to reflect back on
your own white fragility you know
knowing the journey that you've been on
in this work where you static from how
did how how did looking back now how did
you see it showing up for you and how
maybe does it still show up for you
fragility less and I think there's
something about the distich convergence
of my background that that had had me
hanging there like I mentioned that I
was hired to do this diversity training
and we started with 40 trainers about
half of them white and by the end of the
contract I was the only one left all right
right
so so there is something that enabled me
to hang in there honestly I think it's
my class background but that's another
and I'd love to talk a little about how
I see my race and class intersecting I
could name my racism probably easier
than white fertility because I didn't
have a lot of it so um here's a moment
we get hired this group of this big
group of trainers is hired to go forth
and do this huge contract right on
racial equity training and we have to go
through a five-day train the trainer
ourselves right eight this room filled
with all these people who just got hired
to do this big contract because an
organization have been sued for racial
discrimination okay so they required
every employee to have 16 hours of
mandate versity training yeah and there
were 5,000 employees so they needed to
hire all these people to go out and do
these trainings right
I can do that you know like all the
other white people who got higher and so
we go through this five-day train the
trainer ourselves and by that afternoon
of the first day you know the shit's hit
the fan right and I can it was so tense
in that room and I can remember the
white people just turning to the people
coming saying okay so this is where you
teach us about racism like I literally
thought okay now they're gonna teach me
about racism and they looked at us I
said oh hell no you know no you know you
I don't probably have to explain to you
but maybe to some of your listeners that
is not our job I mean I also want to
point out the the lack of humility that
we as white trainers we just got hired
to do a job that we're basically saying
we're not qualified for with no
hesitation to say that aren't qualified
right this is the mediocrity white
people get away right yet claim that you
know you're not qualified right and I
remember being so angry like I mean it
was just you know just and then people
were arguing and and then this white
woman yells out into the room all the
white racists raise your hand and all a
whole bunch of white people raised their
hands and I was looking gone okay
clearly this is the party line I mean
I'm a student not to know that but and I
didn't raise my hand and I went home you
know think back and I think what a what
a smart move she made just like that
bang she surfaced right where all the
white people were in their understanding
of what it meant to be racist right what
I was showing is I had no idea of what
racism was right so she she let you know
she exposed us so the people of color
could look and say okay that one over there
there
you know this is
I don't know that's an example what I'm
smiling because you know I can imagine
in your mind you were like well I have
now shown myself as the only safe white
person in here and in reality what
happened was the opposite which is she
has no idea the harm she is causing she
has no idea about what's actually going
on and that is go ahead sorry no I was
going to say that's so reflective of so
many people who are coming into my work
who are coming into your work I just
don't have that understanding you talk
in your book about the good bad binary
you tell us a little bit about that yeah
and let me just say I mean the very
things that we think are showing that we
get it are are rarely convincing right
you know I think that I'm showing you
I'm down and you're rolling your eyes
right believe that confusion of why they
why is she rolling her eyes you know you
the very things I think show I don't get
it or probably exactly what or show that
I think show that I get it or what don't
this is why I spend time in my
presentation it's like breaking down all
of the evidence why people give for why
they're not racist and how ridiculous
that evidence actually is right and
rests on a definition of racism as
individual conscious acts of meanness oh
and racists apparently can't handle
proximity to people of color right okay
right that is probably the number one
piece of evidence is some version of my
proximity either a family member I work
in a diverse environment and in that
that's really revealing and what do I
think racism is racist that my evidence
that I'm not racist is that I have
proximity okay well then that must mean
a racist can't hit proximity so let me
ask you Leila could a racist have
proximity to you oh absolutely your life
would might be a lot more comfortable if
racist couldn't
approximately right it's just silly
so um the good bad binary is connected
to that it's this idea and I see it as
coming out of the challenges of the
civil rights movement in the US where it
it became what happened for people of
white people in North is suddenly all
these images were televised and you know
in all these you know living rooms
across the u.s. you see images of black
people being beaten at lunch counters
and dogs sicked on them and I think
there was a kind of shock for a lot of
white people it's ok same shock we feel
today when the same things that are
going on have always gone on but now
they're videotaped right right you tell
me man I got you know they called the
cops and I didn't do anything and I'm
like well you probably did do something
right right I don't think these
incidences are increasing I just think
we can now record them and document them
but but suddenly it became very bad to
be racist like that that one became the
archetype of a racist is some southern
person in a white hood beating somebody
it became very bad to be racist and if
you were good you weren't racist so they
became mutually exclusive right good
nice people cannot be racist I mean if
you look at again how white people
respond it would appear that we can't
hold that you could be a good person a
nice person and perpetrate racism and
yet you know me and white supremacy my
book is actually for those good white
liberal progressive people who would
self-identify as definitely not racist
definitely you know believe if we are
all one race the human race definitely
believe that we've been all created the
same and we don't even see color that
kind of
the harm that is perpetrated by people
who self-identify in that way cuts so
much deeper than somebody who you know
sometimes I get really weird emails from
very right-wing very you know very
extreme people who are commenting on my
work it's I don't even read it I open it
I see what it is I delete it right
doesn't doesn't affect me it's when I'm
in spaces and places with people who
they believe they are safe they believe
that their ideals and their values make
them an ally you know and perhaps we've
developed some level of trust or there's
just there's just a kind of feeling of
harm isn't gonna be done here and
inevitably it is that always cuts so
much deeper and it's so hard for as he
said classic liberals to understand why
it cuts deeper what do you now
understand about why it cuts deeper and
I don't know if you've heard me say I
think I stayed in the book I actually
think white progressives and I don't
mean Democrat versus Republican oh you
know any white person who's just oh you
know it's not me yours less me or I
think we cause the most most daily
hostility and toxicity in the
environment for people of color
particularly those who are working and
living in primarily white spaces yes and
maybe the example is that if hopefully
your listeners know who Richard Spencer
is but he's kind of them the head of the
alt-right movement and I can only
imagine as a black woman to run into a
Richard Spencer potentially could be
terrifying and yet odds are on a daily
basis you're not gonna run into Richard
Spencer right on a day basis you're
gonna deal with me right
agree to which I think I'm good to go
for all these nonsensical reasons I'm
gonna give you that I'm good to go one
I'm going to Terry my second cousin
married a black man right no I was in
Teach for America you know just on and
on one I'm gonna be completely
complacent so I'm not going to be
involved in any way in my continual growth
every moment that I push against the
messages of white supremacy they're
pushing right back on me I can never
like relax and just say you know there's
no it's not happening right so one I'm
gonna be completely complacent and two
I'm going to when the topic comes up my
energy is gonna go into making sure you
know that I'm not racist right I'm gonna
DES where my Energy's gonna go and if
you push back on that it's gonna go into full-blown
full-blown
white fragility hurt feelings
defensiveness how dare you assume I
would be racist you don't know me I mean
we write you know the contents of my
heart you know my you know just so so
many so many reasons there's so many
reasons because where I start to cry and
I should know bad so now you have to
absolve me or I begin to avoid you
you're gonna get punished in a range of
ways right having done that and so you
may not do it again and then I may
assume most everything's fine right
really happening is we have nowhere near
the authentic relationship I think we
have because I have conveyed to you that
I cannot go there with you I can't hold
that conversation so the gaslighting you
mentioned if you put all of that
together into the water it's just the
water of whiteness right we can't bring
your authentic selves you you you can't
talk to us about what you're
experiencing and that works great for us
right I mean I'm definitely gonna claim
you as my diversity cover right you know
right as long as you don't fundamentally
challenge me right right because when
you do that you have a personal problem
right right right yeah it's it's a
really powerful form oh I think every everyday
everyday
white racial control and I I have been
noticing lately in young people like
under 30 who most would say oh this new
generation they are
incapable of answering the question what
does it mean to be white and when you
bring all of that collective lack of any
critical thinking or awareness into the
water and you have to be in that water
right you know that most white people
can't answer that question right and if
I can't hold what it means to be white I
cannot hold what it means not to be what
it's it's so interesting you're talking
about this so before we hit record we
were talking about where I live so I
live in the Middle East I was born and
grew up in the UK
I lived there I've actually lived here
more now than I've lived in the UK but I
was completely raised you know in the
sewer that is white supremacy and it has
impacted my the way that I see myself in
ways that I'm still healing from so you
talked about internalized superiority
that white people have as a black person
I absolutely have internalized
inferiority and it comes out and in all
these weird ways where you know I
haven't pasta syndrome I don't think I
deserve to take up space I questioned
myself constantly and so when you were
talking about what you know how young
people how young white people are not
able to answer this question of what it
means to be why I know for I know for
myself from a very young age I had to
I'm just doing the question of what it
meant to be black and Muslim my my
daughter I will say I have two kids my
daughter's a bit elder my son is younger
still so we're not having those
conversations yet we've definitely had
conversations around race she goes to a
school that has you know kids from every
nationality basically around the world
and yet we still have these
conversations because I'm a third
culture child I did not grow up in the
culture from which my parents are from
she will likely not grow up and live in
the culture that you know my parents
come from she could go anywhere in the
world and she will have to understand
this is how the world sees you as a
black person it's not right it's not
okay and these are the ways in which you
can add
cake for yourself and speak for yourself
but you have to understand that that's
there and so it's really interesting
because we recently went on a family
vacation for about a month and a half
around Europe and it's the longest my
kids have ever been in Europe and they
saw especially my daughter who's nine
years old she saw a number of things
that were just like wow the things mom
has been saying to me are actually true
these things do exist you know she saw
waiters overlook us or you know kind of
like give us the cold shoulder she saw
at breakfast one day at a hotel a woman
after I told her we were in a line to do
something just sort of reach over me and
do what she wanted to do ignore the fact
that I was ahead of her and because I
had prepared her by having these
conversations prior to these incidents
she was able we were then able to have
the conversation of why did this happen
now the you know with the lady at the
breakfast if you had asked her oh yeah
did you do this because you think that
you're better that you're superior she
would have absolutely said no yeah you
know but her actions showed I'm gonna
ignore the fact that you've politely
explained to me that we're in a line and
just reach over you and do what I want
to do because I'm entitled to because
I'm white yeah and so that sense of
superiority you know is something that I
just want so many white people to
understand that you at a conscious level
if asked most white people say no I
don't think I'm better than anyone else
in fact I in fact I struggle with my
self-confidence I have a lot of soft out
but when it comes to their position
ality with people of color especially
black people that is this huge sense of
superiority that comes out in these
really strange ways yeah and it doesn't
have to be conscious I mean this is the
other piece right
and so um there's a lots of thoughts one
is this idea that to say that that
one has white privilege or benefits from
the system of racism a lot of white
people think that means you're saying
white people don't suffer don't face
barriers don't feel pain and no of
course we face barriers and of course we
suffer but we don't face that barrier
and that there is huge not facing that
barrier helps us face the ones we do
have right you know and and other people
dealing with that barrier if you will
also helps me through my life right so
that's really important I think for us
to understand again I repeat it's not
saying we don't suffer face barriers
right but I would ask any white person
listening who has another identity a
salient identity that's oppressed
they're queer they're women they have a
disability how does being white shape
how you experience queerness how you
express how you experience your
disability right could you look anyone
in the face and say to be poor and black
and poor and white is the same
experience please right but there's
another piece in here right so I guess
one piece is unconscious bias right and
this is why even somebody who calls the
police because somebody's sitting at a
Starbucks without ordering a coffee is
gonna insist that you know their race
had nothing to do with it right right
there's no way I'd get the cops called
on me for that right right but also part
of being white is just the entitlement
to not to attend to impact let's imagine
that woman would have reached over
anybody let's imagine she's kind of rude
and domineering and she would have
reached over anybody when she reaches
over you the impact is racism and this
was a lesson that Deborah I mentioned
Deborah Terry Hayes really helped me
with so we went to lunch one day and she
said Robyn you're always talking over me
and that is your racism and I was like
no it's not
so my racism I talk over everybody you
know I had this classic idea that if I
do it to everybody it's racism right
hung in there with me she keeps it when
you do it to me
because I I've spent my life being
talked over being rendered invisible
fighting to speak fighting to be heard
and part of your your whites your
whiteness is that you don't have to
notice the impact from your position as
a white person if that makes sense right
so the example African uses this let's
think about a cisgender man he always
raises his voice when he debates okay
great you raise your voice to me as a
woman there's a very different impact
because there's a history we're bringing
into that room and it's a history of
harm and so you raise your voice at me
and that made feel very threatening and
intimidating and I would like to think
that as a man you're paying attention to
that right and and so you you're I'm
speaking to a woman now and so there's a
really different dynamic here I mean is
that so hard to just come pay attention
right know like okay but but she's
reaching over a black woman now and you
know what you don't get to indulge
yourself in your personality you know if
you want to if you want to be attentive
to challenging racism it's the same with
introverts well I'm an introvert I never
speak in groups great you don't speak in
this group in other words you don't
speak up up when we're trying to talk
about racism I'm sorry
the impact is you're upholding racism
this is you know sorry to interrupt you
the point that you're making is so
salient because I think so many people
who hold white privilege do lean back
then on their personality to explain why
they have done what they have done and
it's a very neat and tidy cover that
protects them from having to look at the
actual historical like context that's
being brought into the interaction I
know many people would hear what you're
saying and think well know why why do I have
have
to like be you know walking on eggshells
around people of color why do I have to
why can't I just relax why can't I just
show up as me I want to be authentically
me and there is something about that
that is so I think attractive as an
argument to so many white people that
it's about authenticity it's about
showing up as their true selves and it's
this really cutter way of being able to
ignore the impact of what happens to
people of color
yeah do ya go a little bit deeper on
that you know yeah so there's a question
that has never failed me in my efforts
to uncover how does this keep getting
reproduce individually every white
person's gonna tell you I'm against
racism and yet by every measure we have
racism right it's like the book racism
without racist it horrible neil still
don't love that yeah and so the question
for me when i'm trying to figure out a
piece of racism it's not is it true or
is it false is it right or is it wrong
the question is how does it function so
how does it function when white people
when you bring up the impact this is
having on you and they move to it's it's
just my personality or they move to gosh
do I just have to walk on eggshells that
question functions two to one prevent
any engagement with impact but also to
say I'm going to continue to engage in
in my most comfortable mode which
basically if I don't care if it the
impact on you is racism I'm not going to
be careful right I am not in any way
gonna give up anything it's just so many
functions to protect the status quo
because the status quo is racism right
if I'm telling you that when you say
that phrase to me it completely
invalidates me and you say well I don't
care it's my favorite phrase like seriously
seriously
is that that who we want to be so so
that's that's one thought I had but also
this is gonna be a little bit hard for
some white folks your personality my
psychosocial development was inculcated
in the water of white supremacy yes
there's there's no space outside of it
so what I think of as my personality
developed in a society in which white
supremacy is the foundation so I've
internalized it it's not just because of
the color of my skin it's the person
inside my skin that doesn't mean I can't
challenge it but there is nothing that
could have exempted me from having to
deal with it right in the same with
gender you can be you can resist all you
want the gender binary you have to
resist it you can't move through life
without dealing with right it's the same
with white supremacy so to say that's
just my personality right it's very
helpful your personality has been shaped
and molded and influenced by white
supremacy and I think many people get
stuck there and so stuck in the shame
and the guilt and if it's inside of me
then what's the point how can I change
it how can i if it's who I actually am
you know it's it becomes this and this
is why I wrote me and white supremacy
because it was about reckoning it's
about reckoning with how does it show up
for you not for all those people out
there but for you in your daily life and
I know many people go through a stage of
grieving almost of understanding Who I
am is not who I thought that I was and
I've got this thing inside of me it's
how my brain has been shaped is how my
values have been shaped it's how my
personality has been shaped how do I
reckon with that
how have you reckoned with that you know
I'm gonna assume that you could not and
could not have written that book if you
didn't think change was possible pray
right when I whenever I go to
hopelessness and disc
courage Minh and trust me I mean I think
you would know dealing with white people
on racism everyday brings up a lot of
discouragement but I can't go there
right it was how does that function yeah
give up talking about it stop doing it
and then you perfectly protect
everything so my absolutely you as a
black woman navigate hope and
hopelessness is different I made me as a
white person I can't go there I want to
talk a little bit about shame yeah any
any narrative that white people go to
very quickly and easily for me as a red
flag right and shame is one we go to
very quickly very easily very quickly
yeah even more than guilt like shame is
better than guilt because shame is a
little more precious it invokes a little
more sympathy a little more victimhood
oh you feel shame nobody should feel
shame so I've been doing things lately
in my workshops where I I have a white
person turn to another white person and
just share on a daily basis what
percentage of your day do you feel
racial shame mm-hmm be honest okay zero
right to personnel and I kind of
facetiously say yeah oh I'm on my way
into Whole Foods and I have to step over
a black man in the gutter I feel a rush
of shame but then I get into Whole Foods
right and cherries are on sale you know
what I mean it's only in a flash yeah
when we're usually when we're in some
kind of session to challenge racism
right so that tells me that it is
functioning problematic right right right
right
shames a drag I said not a good feeling
but you know build your capacity to bear
it and you'll probably move through it
faster right eat right it's um it's
something that I know I get frustrated
with but also
I understand so because you know I
understand that we are all one race the
human race we do react to situations
very similarly when we feel that who we
are our identity is being challenged it
doesn't matter who we are we have a simp
we all have a similar response to that
and we all have a you know a similar
issue process for how we work through
that and at the same time I know that
when it's in a situation where it's a me
and a white person or a person of color
and a white person just because of the
function of white supremacy it's just
acting out very differently and it has a
different kind of impact and it is
definitely am really glad that you
highlighted it because it is something
that I think is is used as when I have
seen critics of anti racism and
anti-racist education something that
they go to very easily is well you you
know they're just trying to make white
people feel ashamed of being white yeah
and that's this very terrible thing that
must not ripen wait what's the answer
let's not talk about it right what
social problem or ill would anybody ever
say the best way to deal with that
social problem is to never speak of it
right let's not talk about suicide let's
not talk about drug addiction let's not
talk about eating disorders or sexual
assault nobody would say that right but
when it comes to racism the answer is
never to speak of it well that's the
answer if you want to protect it right
you know to see or not
I just lost my thought for me too but
you were saying remind me what you were
just saying I was just saying about how
critics often go to that other that's
your main criticism this is just a scam
this is all right this is just
brainwashing white people to be ashamed
of themselves
I would think listening to me you see
that I'm quite clear that I've been
conditioned into white supremacy and I
don't struggle with guilt I really don't
because you know I would never
have chosen to be conditioned into white
supremacy you know but I was I had no
choice I was guilt is just not useful it
is a I think natural part of a process
that's right I'm moving through it but
if we use it if it's functioning to say
I can't do them then you need to
challenge it yeah now while I don't
struggle with guilt I absolutely feel
responsible for the result of my
conditioning that's right
now that I know have it and know it what
am I doing with it and true or not it's
like Howard Zinn says there's no neutral
place on a moving train the default of
the society is white supremacy and
racism and so there is you know to not
do anything about it is to support it so
absolutely and we were talking before we
hit record about how white supremacy
functions outside of the US and I had
shared some you know examples of what I
experienced on my holiday but also just
you know my experiences growing up and
studying in the UK I know that it
functions there but there's always this
very it doesn't matter if a person is
from Canada from the UK from somewhere
in Europe there is always this excuse of
well we're not like America though you
know we're not American that's that's
where you have a lot of racism you know
in your device right how have you seen
that play out well the first thing to
understand is that white supremacy
circulates globally it's been exported
globally it impacts the you know the
entire world it may have been an idea
created in in the US but everywhere I've
ever been every movie I see advertised
are us movies right all of our culture
has been exported yes and everywhere I
go outside the US
I hear the exact same thing from white
people right okay because we're gonna
get to what I hear from me yeah but this
is an American problem
that's one too you don't know of the
culture here so you you're not it's not
legitimate for you to speak about it and
and everywhere I go people of color are
oh my god help us oh my god this is
right out of your book it's textbook
from so the specific history might be
different but the outcome is white
supremacy white fragility and husky and
suffering and inequality for people of
color right and in some of these
cultures like the the UK and Canada I
think the less they talk about it the
higher is the white fragility yeah the
best capacity the less skills and
therefore the more hostile an
environment for people of color to bring
their experience and reality to the
table right and I actually don't think I
need to be an expert on every other
culture I do my research before I go
yeah but but what I say to white people
is get some skin in the game right and
figure out what this looks like in your
context that's on you that's not on me
take this framework this basic framework
right the clear
empirically you know able to be shown
outcome and then just figure out how
right right right
change your question from if white
people's number one question about
racism is if you are are you aren't and
use the question is if the answer will
be no right change it to how how is
racism manifesting in my life in my work
right how does it manifest in my context
right right it may be different then it
manifests in yours but it manifests it's
so important for people in all countries
where there is a white dominant or white
supremacy is very dominant to understand
to study the
history of that country and to look at
what is going on with you know situation
with migrants and immigrants like what
is happening there and how is that
shaping racial stereotypes it's so
interesting that you said you hear from
the white people in those countries is
nothing to see here and the people of
Cullen were like oh my gosh this exactly
erode is in the book and I had a very
similar experience that when I was
traveling I got to meet up with a number
of rune of color who I know online and
got to you know have coffee with them
sit down with them and sort of hear
about their experiences and the things
that they are experiencing the things
that have happened to them it's like the
white people who live there I would say
know that I could never happen that
would never happen
that's that happen now that happened in
2019 and it's like yeah it's happening
you know just because those people are
not feeling safe enough to speak up or
because it's not a national conversation
in the way it is in the USA doesn't mean
or at that level you know that is in the
US doesn't mean that it's not happening
that people of color are not
experiencing racial aggressions every
single day and having to monitor
themselves and minimize themselves in
order just to get through the day and to
just to just get through the day yeah no
I I feel I feel frustrated when I hear
you say gosh I had no idea that was
happening and I'm white right I just
wish I want to look at your white
listeners too cuz just take this in the
impact of you just like marveling that's
you're surprised that this happens
that's a microaggression right that's
what would that tells I would imagine
Leila is like just I don't
I have never had to understand your
reality and and then you have to be
reminded of that you have to look at
that in the face right and you have to
explain and you know convinced it's
maddening right and it's part of being
why is to be able to move through the
world with just complete ignorance cover
it up as innocence you know I don't
think it's white people are not innocent
on race I think it's a it's a kind of
willful refusal to see or to know
because people of color you been killing
us forever right informations everywhere
right you know the number one question I
get when I give a talk is what do I do
you know and that question also really
bothers me that's why I just say me and
white supremacy like I've never thought
about this in my life I've just listened
to you for one hour now hand me the
answer right oh you know what just be in
the process for a few minutes here and
also honestly you're not for me to just
hand it to you like you're not what if
as if I could write right because even
my most handing see actually isn't the
answer you actually have to do the work
you think you actually have to like dig
deep inside of yourself and go through
this process and know that people buy
books not everyone reads the book they
buy when it's a book that you have to
work - yes no - really it's not enough
to say I bought the book or I read the
book right you know you have to view the
book you have to actually involve
yourself in the process and that has
nothing to do with showing to the world
look at me I'm trying my best looking
and making an effort because that again
is just putting yourself at the center
yeah you know um dare mine I lost that
thought again but let me just say that I
can imagine Americans going to other
countries and saying oh we don't have
racism in America I mean because so many
white people say there's no more racism
right so just take that in right I just
you know maybe when you're in Canada you
change it to indigenous right in the US
i centered on anti blackness right in
Australia look at the history of the
Aboriginal people right in the UK in
German well in the UK take a look at who
where do you think we purchased and
slayed that right right where you know
when it wants to colonize all those
countries thinking I wonder where their
wealth came from right right right but
also with the anti-immigrant sentiment
right but if you don't understand racism
right if you have no awareness of it if
you don't talk about it if you don't
look at it if you're shocked when you
know Layla
tells you about an experience of hers it
means one you have no critical thinking
right - you also have no skills at all
but navigate a pretty complex nuanced
and uncomfortable conversation and three
you have no emotional capacity to endure
the discomfort of the conversation this
is why so called innocence is not benign
right right the impact of that all of
those in abilities is you know again I
repeat you can't bring your authentic
self to me because I can't hold it right
and my thought about the walking on
eggshells I mean one the entitlement of
that you mean I have to watch what I say
yes like do we have to give up a little
tiny bit of something here yes right
but there's a difference between
carefulness and thoughtfulness right right
right
we've thoughtful but but carefulness and
here's another story would Deborah in [Music]
[Music]
there used to be this exercise we would
do in these trainings where you would
care for someone who and you would choose
choose
an oppressed group that neither of you
belong to it okay and give your first
uncensored thought right so maybe
another white person I would parent we
might do black people so I would say
black woman black man african-americans
and then they would just say their first
uncensored side and you can imagine not
right I can imagine
yes yeah so I was debriefing this
exercise but Deborah and I'm like that
it just has makes me so uncomfortable
like I know I have all that stuff in me
but I don't want to loosen it up because
what if it just you know I think this
this is a really classic fear of a lot
of white people we're just gonna blurt
some horrible thing out right I said I
just thought that was more important to
be careful right I just need for you know it's long pause and she said Robin
know it's long pause and she said Robin you think we can't tell Whitney when
you think we can't tell Whitney when you're being careful right what do you
you're being careful right what do you think white people look like when
think white people look like when they're being careful around black
they're being careful around black people hmm and I just was one of those
people hmm and I just was one of those moments we just go oh my god what do we
moments we just go oh my god what do we look like stiff right inauthentic racist
look like stiff right inauthentic racist quite frank right right well then you
quite frank right right well then you watch me over there with all my white
watch me over there with all my white friends over by the water cooler
friends over by the water cooler laughing joke relaxed yeah I know
laughing joke relaxed yeah I know carefulness is not what we're looking
carefulness is not what we're looking for thoughtfulness right right the
for thoughtfulness right right the ability to repair when we step in it
ability to repair when we step in it right I'm not so many people of color
right I'm not so many people of color say to me we don't expect you to be free
say to me we don't expect you to be free of your racist conditioning and we're
of your racist conditioning and we're not gonna give up on you because you
not gonna give up on you because you have racist conditioning we'd really be
have racist conditioning we'd really be isolated if we did that but what we're
isolated if we did that but what we're looking for we're looking for something
looking for we're looking for something and that is where can we go with you in
and that is where can we go with you in those moments when it surfaces and if we
those moments when it surfaces and if we can't go there with you we're not having
can't go there with you we're not having an authentic relationship right yes yes
an authentic relationship right yes yes because there isn't an expectation that
because there isn't an expectation that we think as a speaker myself as a black
we think as a speaker myself as a black person
person don't hold an expectation that if you
don't hold an expectation that if you have read all of these books and taken
have read all of these books and taken all of these courses and done all of
all of these courses and done all of this work that you will never do
this work that you will never do anything racist that you will never say
anything racist that you will never say anything racist I want to talk about
anything racist I want to talk about this next but I know that you've been in
this next but I know that you've been in this work for 20 years I have no
this work for 20 years I have no expectation Robin that you have now
expectation Robin that you have now reached this status of exceptionalism
reached this status of exceptionalism where you can never say something out of
where you can never say something out of your mouth or do something that was you
your mouth or do something that was you know unconsciously racist but what I do
know unconsciously racist but what I do know is that if it does happen when it
know is that if it does happen when it does happen I can have that when it does
does happen I can have that when it does happen
happen I can have that conversation with you in
I can have that conversation with you in a very honest way without having to try
a very honest way without having to try to protect your feelings right without
to protect your feelings right without having to use you know ways to explain
having to use you know ways to explain what you've done which actually minimize
what you've done which actually minimize the harm that has been caused to me at
the harm that has been caused to me at you know so that I can protect you that
you know so that I can protect you that we can really go deep and have that
we can really go deep and have that conversation and that the repair that
conversation and that the repair that will be done through it because I
will be done through it because I understand that you've been in this work
understand that you've been in this work for a long time so you understand the
for a long time so you understand the level of authenticity that's required
level of authenticity that's required and that repair will be so much more
and that repair will be so much more real than if you're somebody who's you
real than if you're somebody who's you know really grappling to come to terms
know really grappling to come to terms of this and is really just doing the
of this and is really just doing the work at the surface I've had many people
work at the surface I've had many people who've emailed me messaged me to say you
who've emailed me messaged me to say you know well I have been in this work since
know well I have been in this work since you know X year and I'm like but the way
you know X year and I'm like but the way that you're showing up tells me you've I
that you're showing up tells me you've I don't know how you've been doing it but
don't know how you've been doing it but you haven't been doing it you know you
you haven't been doing it you know you you may have been a diversity trainer
you may have been a diversity trainer you may have been you know you you've
you may have been you know you you've you've been to all of these there's this
you've been to all of these there's this great um
great um I'm skipping around but there's this
I'm skipping around but there's this essay that I quote in you know it's
essay that I quote in you know it's supremacy by Ellen pence and I think
supremacy by Ellen pence and I think it's from the book all the women are
it's from the book all the women are white all the blue all the men all the
white all the blue all the men all the blacks are men but some of us are brave
blacks are men but some of us are brave and she's a white feminist writing about
and she's a white feminist writing about her coming to an understanding that even
her coming to an understanding that even though she understood that she wasn't
though she understood that she wasn't racist like her father who was outwardly
racist like her father who was outwardly and she would save her money and send it
and she would save her money and send it to Martin Luther King Jimmy and she
to Martin Luther King Jimmy and she would go to the black church she
would go to the black church she couldn't understand why still women of
couldn't understand why still women of color were saying to her but you're
color were saying to her but you're still you're still white you're still
still you're still white you're still racist you're still part of the problem
racist you're still part of the problem she couldn't understand why and it
she couldn't understand why and it wasn't until she was able to really
wasn't until she was able to really listen to the women of color being doing
listen to the women of color being doing her work that she could see the same way
her work that she could see the same way that white men would treat her as a
that white men would treat her as a white woman is the same way she was
white woman is the same way she was treating people of color and black
treating people of color and black people and yes takes that analogy to
people and yes takes that analogy to make that connection
make that connection um but it's that level of like even
um but it's that level of like even though she's been working she had been
though she's been working she had been working alongside women of color
working alongside women of color feminists that proximity to those people
feminists that proximity to those people and those relationships did not mean
and those relationships did not mean that they would necessarily have been
that they would necessarily have been safe with her when her white fragility
safe with her when her white fragility surface because she had no understanding
surface because she had no understanding yeah you know sexism has been an
yeah you know sexism has been an incredibly effective way in for me
incredibly effective way in for me because I you know I identify as a
because I you know I identify as a feminist from very very very young it's
feminist from very very very young it's very easy to see where we where one is
very easy to see where we where one is oppressed themselves right but I was in
oppressed themselves right but I was in my 30s before I recognized how I
my 30s before I recognized how I colluded with somebody else's oppression
colluded with somebody else's oppression right when I that question of how does
right when I that question of how does it function it's been really useful but
it function it's been really useful but also when I can't figure out a piece as
also when I can't figure out a piece as I say you give me some feedback and I
I say you give me some feedback and I feel defensive I just in my mind change
feel defensive I just in my mind change the roles and imagine that a man is
the roles and imagine that a man is saying to me I've just called in a man
saying to me I've just called in a man and on sexism and he's and I usually
and on sexism and he's and I usually just instantly oh my god I get it right
just instantly oh my god I get it right it's why I challenge white people who
it's why I challenge white people who say we need to feel safe in order to
say we need to feel safe in order to talk about racism like seriously if a
talk about racism like seriously if a man if there was a group of man who I
man if there was a group of man who I was trying to get him to talk about
was trying to get him to talk about sexism and they say well we need to feel
sexism and they say well we need to feel safer I would just be like f you
safer I would just be like f you basically right right that that is a
basically right right that that is a really useful way in but I want to say
really useful way in but I want to say something to all the white feminists out
something to all the white feminists out there stop using sexism as a way to
there stop using sexism as a way to protect your racism right you know we
protect your racism right you know we has so many white women use sexism as a
has so many white women use sexism as a way out right and this universe way and
way out right and this universe way and a way to guilt women of color into a
a way to guilt women of color into a sort of solidarity which doesn't
sort of solidarity which doesn't necessarily guest:yes you know you
necessarily guest:yes you know you shouldn't shouldn't be fighting against
shouldn't shouldn't be fighting against each other we should be supporting each
each other we should be supporting each other as women and it's like but you're
other as women and it's like but you're not understanding what's actually going
not understanding what's actually going on here yes so that so that was a
on here yes so that so that was a thought another thought is what you were
thought another thought is what you were talking about when people write you and
talking about when people write you and say I've been doing this work for a long
say I've been doing this work for a long time I call that credentialing in my
time I call that credentialing in my workshops I make why people turn to
workshops I make why people turn to person extra man and just answer how do
person extra man and just answer how do you credential yourself right we all do
you credential yourself right we all do it
it and if I told you that they notice when
and if I told you that they notice when we're doing it how do you think it's
we're doing it how do you think it's actually impacting the conversation what
actually impacting the conversation what do you think is actually going on when
do you think is actually going on when they're noticed that we're credentialing
they're noticed that we're credentialing right and if there are people color I
right and if there are people color I have them answer how you notice white
have them answer how you notice white people credentialing and does it work
people credentialing and does it work right but one of the things I say when
right but one of the things I say when somebody says cuz sometimes people try
somebody says cuz sometimes people try to credential themselves with me by
to credential themselves with me by saying I read your book yes and I just
saying I read your book yes and I just say well how will people of color know
say well how will people of color know that you've read my book you know I just
that you've read my book you know I just wait right like how how would people of
wait right like how how would people of color know that you've been a diversity
color know that you've been a diversity training through all these years if you
training through all these years if you didn't tell them right right right right
didn't tell them right right right right well I think if you had truly
well I think if you had truly internalized this understanding you
internalized this understanding you wouldn't need to tell them right as it
wouldn't need to tell them right as it would come through and how you were
would come through and how you were precisely and that and the very thing
precisely and that and the very thing that you think is showing that you get
that you think is showing that you get it it's again where why people are we're
it it's again where why people are we're so unqualified to determine how well
so unqualified to determine how well we're doing because we're so invested in
we're doing because we're so invested in not seeing yeah we're we're doing well
not seeing yeah we're we're doing well right yeah I know you get this question
right yeah I know you get this question a lot because you are a white person
a lot because you are a white person doing anti-racism work how do you answer
doing anti-racism work how do you answer the question around your positionality
the question around your positionality as a person holding white privilege
as a person holding white privilege doing this work and how do you hold
doing this work and how do you hold yourself accountable so as not to slip
yourself accountable so as not to slip into
into white exceptionalism yeah so it is the
white exceptionalism yeah so it is the Masters tools dilemma audre Lorde's
Masters tools dilemma audre Lorde's beautiful quote there is I am so clear
beautiful quote there is I am so clear that I Center whiteness in my work that
that I Center whiteness in my work that when I stand on a stage in front of a
when I stand on a stage in front of a thousand people
thousand people granted credibility and authority like
granted credibility and authority like every almost every other white person
every almost every other white person who stands in front where I am
who stands in front where I am reinforcing whiteness conscious right
reinforcing whiteness conscious right and do not use this platform to not use
and do not use this platform to not use this position to break with white
this position to break with white solidarity to expose whiteness because
solidarity to expose whiteness because it stays protected by not being named or
it stays protected by not being named or exposed and as an insider I can like the
exposed and as an insider I can like the you I think you you understand whiteness
you I think you you understand whiteness and white fragility to a degree I never
and white fragility to a degree I never will
will right and as an insider I have an
right and as an insider I have an understanding that you can't have that's
understanding that you can't have that's right we need all those pieces right yes
right we need all those pieces right yes so it's a the tension is in that both
so it's a the tension is in that both and yeah and the way I think about it is
and yeah and the way I think about it is to not use this platform is to really be
to not use this platform is to really be white and I want to be a little less
white and I want to be a little less white so what does that mean to me it
white so what does that mean to me it doesn't mean be more italian-american
doesn't mean be more italian-american okay doesn't mean be more ethnic to be
okay doesn't mean be more ethnic to be less white for me means be a little less
less white for me means be a little less oppressive a little arrogant and
oppressive a little arrogant and ignorant and complacent and silent and
ignorant and complacent and silent and be more humble and open and vulnerable
be more humble and open and vulnerable and courageous right so that's one piece
and courageous right so that's one piece and I name that and every at the opening
and I name that and every at the opening right I mean I try to be transparent
right I mean I try to be transparent about that tension I'm also really clear
about that tension I'm also really clear that while I I hope my work is valuable
that while I I hope my work is valuable and affirming for people of color I'm
and affirming for people of color I'm speaking to white people as a white
speaking to white people as a white person right I also in terms of
person right I also in terms of accountability financially donate a
accountability financially donate a percentage of my annual income each year
percentage of my annual income each year to racial justice organizations led by
to racial justice organizations led by people of color all my public workshops
people of color all my public workshops whatever it is that I am paid that exact
whatever it is that I am paid that exact amount goes to local racial justice
amount goes to local racial justice organizations led by people of color I
organizations led by people of color I try to promote the work of people of
try to promote the work of people of color co-lead if I'm doing longer work
color co-lead if I'm doing longer work so those are some of the financial ways
so those are some of the financial ways that I seek to be accountable and I had
that I seek to be accountable and I had another thought I hope you edit out all
another thought I hope you edit out all these I had another thoughts well I was
these I had another thoughts well I was just thinking about
just thinking about in terms of sort of weight yeah was I I
in terms of sort of weight yeah was I I have started to ask white people again
have started to ask white people again turn to the person next you given this
turn to the person next you given this given what we've just laid out and made
given what we've just laid out and made visible about white supremacy what are
visible about white supremacy what are your current accountability practices
your current accountability practices yeah and of course be honest cuz most
yeah and of course be honest cuz most white people dancers there aren't any
white people dancers there aren't any none right I part of minor I have white
none right I part of minor I have white people in my life who have a strong
people in my life who have a strong analysis who I definitely work through
analysis who I definitely work through my I go cry with them before my there
my I go cry with them before my there right I go help me I'm struggling I want
right I go help me I'm struggling I want to think through something but there are
to think through something but there are also people of color in my life who have
also people of color in my life who have agreed to be there for me in that way
agreed to be there for me in that way and I paid them for their time or I
and I paid them for their time or I offered to pay them for their time some
offered to pay them for their time some of them are dear friends and will not
of them are dear friends and will not take that who aren't going to accept it
take that who aren't going to accept it and then I say then I donate to a racial
and then I say then I donate to a racial justice organization for the time spent
justice organization for the time spent getting their expertise consulting
getting their expertise consulting services yes right we have to start
services yes right we have to start understanding what you're giving right
understanding what you're giving right right and not just hey I'm sure you get
right and not just hey I'm sure you get emails okay I'm just wondering about
emails okay I'm just wondering about this you know pick your brain I'd love
this you know pick your brain I'd love to have coffee and hear what you think
to have coffee and hear what you think you know I would I never offer to pay my
you know I would I never offer to pay my white friends who have this analysis but
white friends who have this analysis but there's a such a history of the un--
there's a such a history of the un-- compensated labor of people of color in
compensated labor of people of color in such a sense of entitlement right and
such a sense of entitlement right and evacuee men to that energy and to that
evacuee men to that energy and to that history about pain yes that emotional
history about pain yes that emotional labor and that psychic labor and an
labor and that psychic labor and an intellectual labor oh my goodness right
intellectual labor oh my goodness right and in what you risk because I might say
and in what you risk because I might say I wanted I actually see it as a kind of
I wanted I actually see it as a kind of colonialism right like okay give me the
colonialism right like okay give me the fruits of your labor right let's face it
fruits of your labor right let's face it I don't agree with that one right I
I don't agree with that one right I agree with these but I don't I don't
agree with these but I don't I don't think so i don't think this applies in
think so i don't think this applies in my unique situation or i'm listening
my unique situation or i'm listening myself as the qualified arbiter of
myself as the qualified arbiter of whether your thinking is legitimate
whether your thinking is legitimate right so there's just and you know that
right so there's just and you know that you're up against that when you when i
you're up against that when you when i ask you for your thinking right so
ask you for your thinking right so there's just so much that goes into that
there's just so much that goes into that right we're back to my opening story of
right we're back to my opening story of dissident where how am i supposed to
dissident where how am i supposed to know about racism if you won't tell me
know about racism if you won't tell me right right exactly yeah i think it's so
right right exactly yeah i think it's so important thank you for sharing all of
important thank you for sharing all of that i think it's so important to
that i think it's so important to acknowledge the kind of tension of being
acknowledge the kind of tension of being an anti anti-racist educator who is
an anti anti-racist educator who is white and everything that comes with
white and everything that comes with that and because of that acknowledgement
that and because of that acknowledgement you've also made very clear the ways in
you've also made very clear the ways in which you stay accountable
which you stay accountable there is no perfectionism in this and
there is no perfectionism in this and there are you know criticisms that may
there are you know criticisms that may be valid or not valid or you know that
be valid or not valid or you know that there's all kinds of nuances to them but
there's all kinds of nuances to them but i I really appreciate what you said
i I really appreciate what you said about the fact that you understand you
about the fact that you understand you do actually have this platform and that
do actually have this platform and that you feel that this is the way for you to
you feel that this is the way for you to be less oppressive and I think that's
be less oppressive and I think that's really important that you said that
really important that you said that because I know that there are so many
because I know that there are so many white people who come into this
white people who come into this awakening of their racial superiority
awakening of their racial superiority and their positionality and white
and their positionality and white supremacy and the first thing that they
supremacy and the first thing that they want to do is jump into leading training
want to do is jump into leading training leading teaching writing a book you know
leading teaching writing a book you know getting a contract on something and then
getting a contract on something and then becoming the face of the movement and
becoming the face of the movement and that to me is just white supremacy
that to me is just white supremacy continuing to function you talk to me
continuing to function you talk to me about how you've actually been in before
about how you've actually been in before we hit record you've actually been in
we hit record you've actually been in this work for a very long time before
this work for a very long time before getting to New York Times bestseller yes
getting to New York Times bestseller yes no it was 25 years that you've put in
no it was 25 years that you've put in the work in yourself and you know behind
the work in yourself and you know behind the scenes where you didn't
the scenes where you didn't have the fame the the kind of public
have the fame the the kind of public exposure that you have now as you're
exposure that you have now as you're moving more into that I mean this is
moving more into that I mean this is your third book so it's not your first
your third book so it's not your first time writing a book it's not it's not
time writing a book it's not it's not your first time but it is the first one
your first time but it is the first one that's really shut up in the way that it
that's really shut up in the way that it has and it came from this term that you
has and it came from this term that you coined a long time ago as well yeah
coined a long time ago as well yeah right
right how have you been sort of navigating
how have you been sort of navigating being in a position of more public
being in a position of more public exposure and more people knowing who you
exposure and more people knowing who you are being more familiar with your work
are being more familiar with your work and being seen as this leader who is
and being seen as this leader who is also white in in social justice work how
also white in in social justice work how do you navigate that and there might not
do you navigate that and there might not be a clear answer so I'm not looking for
be a clear answer so I'm not looking for it this is how I do it step one in flow
it this is how I do it step one in flow is I think the community keeps you
is I think the community keeps you humble because yes I get a lot of
humble because yes I get a lot of accolades and and I get a lot of really
accolades and and I get a lot of really beautiful affirmations and I am now paid
beautiful affirmations and I am now paid well and Wow do you have to have a thick
well and Wow do you have to have a thick skin
skin the public critiques the you know
the public critiques the you know national news stories that call you out
national news stories that call you out you know that kind of it yeah yes I
you know that kind of it yeah yes I think the average person you know
think the average person you know cringes if they get you know one
cringes if they get you know one evaluation from their manager now you
evaluation from their manager now you know have the you know New York Times
know have the you know New York Times you know critique you and critique your
you know critique you and critique your work right and and so you and you get it
work right and and so you and you get it from both the right and the left and
from both the right and the left and like you I get shockingly awful emails
like you I get shockingly awful emails which you know you kind of just set
which you know you kind of just set aside critiques from the left you know
aside critiques from the left you know in critiques or people of color you know
in critiques or people of color you know that that's of course much harder yeah
that that's of course much harder yeah but you do have to engage with it and
but you do have to engage with it and grapple with it as part of the
grapple with it as part of the accountability and this is kind of deep
accountability and this is kind of deep challenges of being white in this work
challenges of being white in this work is where is that place where you you say
is where is that place where you you say this I I need to take this and I need to
this I I need to take this and I need to learn and grow from it but this is
learn and grow from it but this is theirs and I don't need to take that
theirs and I don't need to take that well that's tricky across race right
well that's tricky across race right because I'm using my white
because I'm using my white if you will to make that nomination and
if you will to make that nomination and yet I've been doing this work long
yet I've been doing this work long enough to know that people color how the
enough to know that people color how the issues to write we're all confused by
issues to write we're all confused by racism and so I almost have to be able
racism and so I almost have to be able to stay centered take what I can and
to stay centered take what I can and leave the rest or I probably would be
leave the rest or I probably would be immobilized right yeah because even
immobilized right yeah because even there isn't even from you know a black
there isn't even from you know a black person's perspective there isn't even a
person's perspective there isn't even a single monolithic black experience of
single monolithic black experience of you and your work that this is how old
you and your work that this is how old black people of color men do just people
black people of color men do just people feel about Robyn D'Angelo and her work
feel about Robyn D'Angelo and her work everyone has their own perspective and
everyone has their own perspective and way that they're engaging with it or not
way that they're engaging with it or not engaging with it and so yeah I hear you
engaging with it and so yeah I hear you about having to stay centered do you do
about having to stay centered do you do you surround yourself with black people
you surround yourself with black people and people of color in your sort of
and people of color in your sort of inner circle who you can you you know
inner circle who you can you you know who are in the work who you can yes to
who are in the work who you can yes to this day Deborah and Arlene or two of
this day Deborah and Arlene or two of those people you know rasma mannequins
those people you know rasma mannequins yes I do and I actually he sent me his
yes I do and I actually he sent me his book and I it's on my to read list yes
yes I read the book though first before I invite him yes
I invite him yes well he is beloved to me and he is
well he is beloved to me and he is someone who I can I can also check in
someone who I can I can also check in with you and so there's other people my
with you and so there's other people my life that you wouldn't necessarily know
life that you wouldn't necessarily know and you know I I'm aware that there are
and you know I I'm aware that there are people who don't think white people
people who don't think white people should talk about this stuff for me or
should talk about this stuff for me or leak this stuff or be paid to leave this
leak this stuff or be paid to leave this stuff I don't agree with that but but
stuff I don't agree with that but but that that's hard and you come up against
that that's hard and you come up against that what I think is interesting is I I
that what I think is interesting is I I doubt brené Brown ever gets asked what
doubt brené Brown ever gets asked what she's doing with her royalties right
she's doing with her royalties right right
right well Bernie Brown doesn't talk about
well Bernie Brown doesn't talk about race right yes she should I don't know
race right yes she should I don't know how you can talk about shame without
how you can talk about shame without talking about racism right
talking about racism right he's referenced by a lot of white women
he's referenced by a lot of white women when oh I'm really me I let me just say
when oh I'm really me I let me just say I think she's really good at what she
I think she's really good at what she does I think the fundamental message is
does I think the fundamental message is kind of accepting yourself and within
kind of accepting yourself and within and she started to do maybe two minutes
and she started to do maybe two minutes on privilege but you know it's clear
on privilege but you know it's clear that that's not really like to talk to
that that's not really like to talk to you know I mean she's good at what she
you know I mean she's good at what she does but when people oh you should check
does but when people oh you should check her out I am always like I think she
her out I am always like I think she fills stadiums because she doesn't
fills stadiums because she doesn't challenge you on reishi she kind of
challenge you on reishi she kind of tells you that you you're okay the way
tells you that you you're okay the way you are a kind of stuff but if she began
you are a kind of stuff but if she began to then maybe she'd begin to get
to then maybe she'd begin to get questions like you know why are you
questions like you know why are you being paid and I just think that's
being paid and I just think that's really interesting right like I don't
really interesting right like I don't know how any person can talk about
know how any person can talk about anything without talking about how race
anything without talking about how race informs it but as long don't talk about
informs it but as long don't talk about race you're not gonna be challenged on
race you're not gonna be challenged on making a living right right right right
making a living right right right right no I do think that's also worth noticing
no I do think that's also worth noticing yeah although that is there is that I
yeah although that is there is that I think I think the difference however is
think I think the difference however is that when you when you are leading or
that when you when you are leading or seem to be leading in an area from which
seem to be leading in an area from which you benefit inherently because of your
you benefit inherently because of your privilege that question always has to be
privilege that question always has to be grappled with I don't necessarily have
grappled with I don't necessarily have an answer and but I think it's I think
an answer and but I think it's I think some of the things that you've talked
some of the things that you've talked about especially around financial
about especially around financial accountability are really important for
accountability are really important for people to understand because otherwise
people to understand because otherwise it just gets taken up as another thing
it just gets taken up as another thing to just make money from and just to
to just make money from and just to propel yourself into a position of
propel yourself into a position of leadership which clearly you are not
leadership which clearly you are not doing this for that because it's this
doing this for that because it's this work is really hard as you've been in it
work is really hard as you've been in it for a really long time and there are
for a really long time and there are some little points in which you could
some little points in which you could have given up and gone into something
have given up and gone into something which would have been much easier for
which would have been much easier for you as a white person even today there's
you as a white person even today there's moment oh no sir I'm just not doing this
moment oh no sir I'm just not doing this anymore by question but right yeah
anymore by question but right yeah somebody must asked me recently asked me
somebody must asked me recently asked me like if you know what do you wish you
like if you know what do you wish you you or something and I thought I wish
you or something and I thought I wish all those years I was taking all that
all those years I was taking all that abuse from white people and I doesn't
abuse from white people and I doesn't compare to the meat out but but but we
compare to the meat out but but but we can be awful to other white people who
can be awful to other white people who breaks up quite solidarity that's why
breaks up quite solidarity that's why I'm on break with white right
I'm on break with white right I wish somebody just said hang in there
I wish somebody just said hang in there you are gonna be able to lay this out
you are gonna be able to lay this out and and what I hope my work does one
and and what I hope my work does one piece of it is make it harder for white
piece of it is make it harder for white people to run this devastating nonsense
people to run this devastating nonsense with no accountability because now we
with no accountability because now we have language yeah me yeah Maggie thank
have language yeah me yeah Maggie thank you and they're saying that yeah thank
you and they're saying that yeah thank you for saying that because the language
you for saying that because the language piece is so important both for people of
piece is so important both for people of color and for white people so to have a
color and for white people so to have a book called white fragility on the New
book called white fragility on the New York Times bestseller list for me really
York Times bestseller list for me really matters that we're naming it it's
matters that we're naming it it's something that will name I know that
something that will name I know that when I was going through the pub they've
when I was going through the pub they've sort of connecting with a publisher for
sort of connecting with a publisher for my book I know that there was a
my book I know that there was a particular publisher who was like would
particular publisher who was like would you consider changing the name of your
you consider changing the name of your book essentially to make it less scary
book essentially to make it less scary and less confrontational although they
and less confrontational although they did not use that language they use more
did not use that language they use more business kind of language that was
business kind of language that was essentially the message and for me it's
essentially the message and for me it's so important to have the language to be
so important to have the language to be able to name it because if you can't
able to name it because if you can't name it it's that thing that you were
name it it's that thing that you were talking about right at the beginning
talking about right at the beginning with your mother and not being able to
with your mother and not being able to speak the cancer and not allowing any of
speak the cancer and not allowing any of you to speak it it's this boogeyman that
you to speak it it's this boogeyman that we can't talk about that we pretend
we can't talk about that we pretend doesn't exist and yet that continues to
doesn't exist and yet that continues to have this violent impact every single
have this violent impact every single day so having the language being able to
day so having the language being able to say that's actually white fragility what
say that's actually white fragility what you're doing right now not in a
you're doing right now not in a name-calling way or just so you know but
name-calling way or just so you know but to identify this is what that means and
to identify this is what that means and here's actually an article a book that
here's actually an article a book that talks about explain to you what it is
talks about explain to you what it is and how it shows up
and how it shows up yeah even reading the New York Times
yeah even reading the New York Times like what the list is you have to like
like what the list is you have to like well what's that every time
well what's that every time in our live right and some you know what
in our live right and some you know what do you do and then I wrote a book what's
do you do and then I wrote a book what's it called I mean those moments I have to
it called I mean those moments I have to say white agility and then after pushes
say white agility and then after pushes me also it pushes me with my book when
me also it pushes me with my book when people say what do you learn by white
people say what do you learn by white supremacy yeah because it's pushing
supremacy yeah because it's pushing against you're absolutely right
against you're absolutely right dominant culture and keeping things
dominant culture and keeping things comfortable and safe for white people
comfortable and safe for white people yeah thank you so much for that
yeah thank you so much for that conversation because it's just I think
conversation because it's just I think it's something that I think why it was
it's something that I think why it was so why it's so important for me to have
so why it's so important for me to have these conversations you know each this
these conversations you know each this is not the second season of good answers
is not the second season of good answers podcast in the first season I had two I
podcast in the first season I had two I people and everyone else was people of
people and everyone else was people of color that's the same with the second
color that's the same with the second season and it's because so many of so
season and it's because so many of so much of my audience is white not all of
much of my audience is white not all of them but a large proportion are coming
them but a large proportion are coming into this work because of me and I
into this work because of me and I supremacy and so I think it's valuable
supremacy and so I think it's valuable to have conversations people who are in
to have conversations people who are in this work whether they are educators or
this work whether they are educators or people just in it and grappling with it
people just in it and grappling with it and having vocal conversations about it
and having vocal conversations about it I think it's so important to sit with
I think it's so important to sit with the awkwardness and that there is no
the awkwardness and that there is no clear-cut answers this is how it's going
clear-cut answers this is how it's going to be because so many people are looking
to be because so many people are looking for that so many people are looking for
for that so many people are looking for just tell me what to do just tell me how
just tell me what to do just tell me how it's supposed to be you know where I've
it's supposed to be you know where I've been supposed to give the standard
been supposed to give the standard answer for all white people I Laila I'm
answer for all white people I Laila I'm supposed to give the standard answer for
supposed to give the standard answer for all black people especially old black
all black people especially old black women and just doesn't it just doesn't
women and just doesn't it just doesn't work that way
work that way and this continues to be I know for me a
and this continues to be I know for me a journey of understanding more and more
journey of understanding more and more of the layers of it and the nuance of it
of the layers of it and the nuance of it and the complexities of it and learning
and the complexities of it and learning to be with that without trying to fix it
to be with that without trying to fix it and make it all in two straight lines
and make it all in two straight lines but just trying as best as possible to
but just trying as best as possible to navigate it with integrity yeah yeah I
navigate it with integrity yeah yeah I mean we're back to the Masters tools you
mean we're back to the Masters tools you and I are inside white supremacy trying
and I are inside white supremacy trying to chill Italy absolutely it's messy and
to chill Italy absolutely it's messy and you know it's that both end of
you know it's that both end of challenging it and reproducing it and
challenging it and reproducing it and but I just know to not challenge it and
but I just know to not challenge it and I often end my sessions by saying to the
I often end my sessions by saying to the white people you know part of being
white people you know part of being white is that you could just leave today
white is that you could just leave today and say oh that was an interesting
and say oh that was an interesting session that was an interesting podcast
session that was an interesting podcast and doing being different and honestly
and doing being different and honestly most of you aren't going to do anything
most of you aren't going to do anything different well can you be nice or just
different well can you be nice or just by the title of my next book niceness is
by the title of my next book niceness is not anti-racism you have that choice but
not anti-racism you have that choice but here's what I want you to do for me if
here's what I want you to do for me if you're gonna make that choice I want you
you're gonna make that choice I want you to go home and I want you to look
to go home and I want you to look yourself in the mirror look yourself
yourself in the mirror look yourself right in the eyes and I want you to say
right in the eyes and I want you to say I choose to collude with white supremacy
I choose to collude with white supremacy and then hurry on but let's do it with
and then hurry on but let's do it with honesty right you know that's how I see
honesty right you know that's how I see it
it to not take up this work is to collude
to not take up this work is to collude there's just no neutral place and let me
there's just no neutral place and let me also add it's the most transformative
also add it's the most transformative liberating work you could ever do it's
liberating work you could ever do it's not awful it's painful at times for sure
not awful it's painful at times for sure but it on every level nothing is gonna
but it on every level nothing is gonna push a white person like getting engaged
push a white person like getting engaged in this work right what's the point of
in this work right what's the point of being alive it might in my point of view
being alive it might in my point of view if I am NOT growing and stretching and
if I am NOT growing and stretching and contributing this is such a good place
contributing this is such a good place to end what has been an incredible
to end what has been an incredible conversation I want to ask you my final
conversation I want to ask you my final question Robin first of all I want to
question Robin first of all I want to thank you for this conversation and for
thank you for this conversation and for writing white fragility for supporting
writing white fragility for supporting the me and white supremacy working for
the me and white supremacy working for bringing your full self to this
bringing your full self to this conversation our final question is what
conversation our final question is what does it mean to you to be a good
does it mean to you to be a good ancestor that at the end of my life
ancestor that at the end of my life write one that each night when I go to
write one that each night when I go to bed I can ask myself were you in your
bed I can ask myself were you in your integrity today did you align your
integrity today did you align your actual behavior with what you profess to
actual behavior with what you profess to you write and at the end of my life you
you write and at the end of my life you know did your life in some way
know did your life in some way contribute to a more just world somebody
contribute to a more just world somebody recently what's one from the right
recently what's one from the right called me a social justice warrior and
called me a social justice warrior and if that man they should come up with a
if that man they should come up with a better term than that because there's
better term than that because there's there's nothing about that term that
there's nothing about that term that bothers me if my two stones should say
bothers me if my two stones should say here lies a social justice warrior I
here lies a social justice warrior I will be in good keeping in my integrity
will be in good keeping in my integrity of that thank you so much Robin welcome
of that thank you so much Robin welcome I hope that this episode has helped you
I hope that this episode has helped you gain new insights and find deeper
gain new insights and find deeper answers to what being a good ancestor
answers to what being a good ancestor means to you we'd love to hear what some
means to you we'd love to hear what some of your aha moments have been from this
of your aha moments have been from this conversation you can follow the podcast
conversation you can follow the podcast on instagram at good ancestor podcast
on instagram at good ancestor podcast and drop us a comment to let us know
and drop us a comment to let us know what some of your biggest takeaways have
what some of your biggest takeaways have been thank you for listening and thank
been thank you for listening and thank you for being a good ancestor
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