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Your Kid's Non-Negotiable Needs | Good Inside | YouTubeToText
YouTube Transcript: Your Kid's Non-Negotiable Needs
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I'm Dr Becky and this is good inside
you know I have three adult kids and
when I was a parent I didn't know what
their needs were I had my own issues
that I hadn't worked out you know from
my own trauma and childhood and then my
children showed issues I naturally
assumed there was something wrong with
them rather than asking myself what is
it in a parenting environment that is
not meeting their needs and what can I
do to bring myself into a more grounded
and understanding place so I could
actually meet their needs rather than
demand that they need my expectations
it's a totally different way of parenting
parenting
so I recently sat down to talk with Dr
Gabor mate someone whose work has had a
profound impact on so many of you and
I'm excited to share this conversation
with you Dr mate has had a highly varied
career he started out as an English
teacher then he returned to medical
school to work in family practice and
then he spent 20 years working in harm
reduction clinics in Vancouver's
downtown east side
we're going to touch on many important
topics today such as sleep training and
the relationship between resilience and
empathy but first let's jump right into
a conversation about so-called
oppositional Defiance disorder that
Gabor and I started having in the booth
before we realized we had even started recording
recording
I feel like my passion project or kids I
call deeply feeling kids who are often
labeled with Oppositional Defiant
Disorder or some other awful set of
terms which just even forces a parent to
look at their kid more as a bad kid and
as obviously as you know just further
identify that way and yeah when those
parents here are like I like your kid
you have a great kid they're struggling
they're really struggling we're gonna
figure it out but I like your kid
they're like wow like nobody has said or
insinuated anything like that and it is
relieving like wait maybe I don't have a
budding sociopath I just I if I can make
some changes everything can get a little
bit better right no we haven't started
the interview yet have we oh no now we
should start hi I was only gonna say
because as soon as I'm concerned
oppositional defense sort of doesn't
even exist you know well we're recording
so let's let's keep this is like music
to my ear my words when people say that
is like I [ __ ] hate those words so
you have a you have a nicer way of
saying it tell me about Oppositional
Defiant Disorder so when we Define or
when we diagnose a child without
position defined disorder we're assuming
that the child has a disorder some kind
of a quasi disease or dysfunction of the
brain or the mind not only does not
exist in real life odd it can't even
theoretically exist and here's why if my
foot was broken would make any
difference to the Brokenness of my foot
whether or not I was talking to you
whether or not even knew you if I had a
flu would make any difference whether or
not I was talking to you or whether if I
knew you no because those are disorders
within my own body
but could I oppose you if I didn't know
you could I oppose you if you weren't in
a relationship of some kind no there's
nothing there you can't so oppositions
by definition happens in a relationship
so that's the first point if that is the
case why are we diagnosing the child
instead of diagnosing a relationship
that's the first point the second point
is who are these kids who are oppositional
oppositional
their kids who've lost their healthy
trusting contact with adults and
therefore they don't trust adults it's
very natural
not to obey somebody that you don't
trust but the lack of trust the lack of
relationship wasn't the child's fault it
happened it wasn't the parents fault
either actually it happens in a culture
where kids and parents are increasingly
alienated from each other for all kinds
of reasons
if I were to push on you right now
either emotionally or physically you
would oppose me you'd resist me so this
resistance on the part of children has
to do with the degree of pushing they
received on the part of adults and so
the adults shift the behavior the kids
change almost immediately I couldn't
agree more and you know I always think
when people tell me my kid's been
diagnosed this way almost just very
practically the way I'm thinking about
my kid the way I'm describing my kid
does it make me want to be close with my
kid feel on the same team or does my
framework make me just not like my kid
and I try to tell myself with my own
kids like until I'm in the first
framework I shouldn't do anything
because like nothing good comes from the
second framework and I just don't know
anyone who's like my kid is Oppositional
Defiant like what oh how amazing are
they like inherently it makes you it
reinforces the dynamic that got things
there in the first place and and then
also a kid is growing up with you know
being looked at as a bad kid that's the
image reflected back to them and I mean
I know what it's like even as an adult
when I've been struggling in any
relationship to be looked at as a bad
person and it's it's eviscerating
or if somebody's pushing on you and we
use this interesting phrase this kid is
acting out what do you do with the kid
when they're acting out why don't we
think about it first what does it mean
to act out like when I say acting out
most people think the kid is
oppositional or or obstreperous or rude
or aggressive or you know something's
wrong with the kid but if you look at
the actual word acting out it actually
means something when do we act out we
have to when we don't have the language
to say it in words and what they're
acting out of the emotional needs and
the emotional frustrations so our job as
parents Educators psychologists it's not
the trend fix the child's Behavior but
to understand the message that's being
acted on I love the way you described
acting out I've never heard it described
that way and it's so true with you know
thinking about not having the language
I've always thought about kind of quote
acting out as I don't know it's like the
feelings or urges or Sensations inside
my body that I haven't yet developed
skills to contain not like suppress in
my body but just allow them them to live
inside my body they're so overpowering
those skills that they literally explode
out of me as as a hit as a scream as a f
you or whatever however it comes out but
I think we come together here and right
and seeing these behaviors are a sign of
what our kids are struggling with or
need not a sign of who they are no
generally they're acting out their own
needs I mean they're acting about their
frustrations and we get frustrated when
our needs aren't met so in this culture
parents are not educated about chosen needs
needs
for healthy development they're educated
about how to get the kid to behave about
how they want them to behave which runs
contrary to their child's needs and
if your Gardener or serious animals you
have to begin with understanding what
are the organisms needs for development
you're not going to go to a healthy
garden if you don't know what your
plants need and it's the same with
parenting children are born with certain
non-negotiable needs when I say
non-negotiable needs I mean needs that nature
nature
evolutionarily programmed into them you
meet those needs those children will
grow up beautifully if you don't meet
the needs they're going to have problems
and then we're going to diagnose the kid
with the problem instead of recognizing how
how
like with my children you know I have
three adult kids and when I was a parent
I didn't know what their needs were I
had my only shoes that I hadn't worked
out you know from my own trauma and
childhood and then my children showed
issues I naturally assumed there was
something wrong with them
rather than asking myself as I was
finally guided to looking at what is it
in the parenting environment that is not
meeting their needs that is causing them
to be in certain ways
and what can I do to bring myself into a
more grounded and understanding place so
I could actually meet their needs rather
than demand that they need my
expectations it's a totally different
way of planting yeah and so I want to
double click on that for a second
non-negotiable needs I'm sure listeners
are saying like oh can he like what I
want to write them down right like what
what are children's non-negotiable needs
there are four basic ones the first one
is for an attachment relationship image
the field image the child is absolutely secure
secure
attachment is a very powerful dynamic in
human life because it actually means the
desire to be close to somebody for the
sake of being taken care of or for the
sake taking care of the other and human
beings need each other so our brains are
wired with a powerful attachment circuit
now the more immature you are the more
helpless and and dependent you are the
greater your attachment is so infants
have absolutely infinite attachment
needs and that attention needs is not
just for physical nurturing but for
emotionally being held and seen and
accepted the second need is that inside
that relationship the child should have
rest and rest means the child shouldn't
have to work to make their lecture work
it's not that I'll accept you and love
you unlike you if you behave such and
such if you're cute if you're smart if
you're compliant no there's nothing that
you have to do to make this relationship
work the third need is the child has an
absolute need to be able to experience
all their emotions now our brains are
wired by Evolution for Joy for play for
love for grief for fear for panic for
anger these are all essential emotions
for survival when parents are told that
anger children should be punished for
being angry what you telling the parent
is is that the child is not allowed to
experience their emotions one of the
things I think that I know parents find
so Illuminating because it's not
explained to them is there's a
difference between
behavior and feelings so I I think it
you know I remember our parents sitting
I was kind of saying something similar
one day in my private practice and
parents like oh so it's okay my son just
hits people I was like no well first of
all I don't even know if it's okay or
not okay just happened like when my
coffee's build it wasn't okay or not
okay it just happened but sure our kid
needs our protection then to stop
themselves from hurting someone and stop
someone else from being hurt that is
separate from the emotion of anger that
they haven't learned the skills yet to
regulate absolutely and I completely
agree with you and there's two things I
would say in response one is if a child
for example is habitually hitting other
kids we have to ask why because that is
a very frustrated child and why is that
so frustrated because there are needs
aren't being met of course you don't
allow kids to hit each other you know so
you you you work with them you're very
angry right now no hitting but you're
very angry right now so you don't punish
somebody you don't allow the behavior
but you don't hold the emotion against
them and just differentiating these
things again it's not taught to us when
we take a baby home from the hospital
not only is a kid not bad for having a
tantrum but here's something else
important when my kid is a tantrum that
doesn't mean I have to change change my
rules right my boundaries I was saying
it's like don't dictate my kids feelings
they're allowed to be upset when I make
a decision and their feelings don't
dictate my boundaries nobody's bad it's
inconvenient it's not pleasant like I
don't like that moment with my kids I'm
not like uh how amazing is this no it's
like oh okay I gotta get through this
but nobody's in the wrong nobody's bad
no that's right the whole label bad
already reflects a certain way of
looking at something you know yes and
there really are no bad kids you know
now the fourth need of children so the
the attention relationship the rest and
the fourth one is free spontaneous play
art and nature and fees spontaneous play
that emerges from the child is not
programmed for them by some external
institution or or toy it's more
essential than intellectual stimulation
because the emotional scaffolding of our
brains provides the template for healthy
intellectual development and so in our
kindergarten in our schools and in our
homes there should be far more emphasis
and spontaneous creative play than on
the teaching of facts or the teaching of
Technology why do they play because this
is how they develop into adults and
we've taken that away from our kids so
those four needs in our society are
frustrated in so many ways and then we
wonder why so many kids are diagnosed
with this or that so-called disorder and
then we're trying to treat the kid and
medicate the kid instead of looking at
the environment in the context which
creates the problem in the first place
yeah people ask me a lot I'm sure they
ask you too like is it harder to parent
these days like is it is is it harder we
see all these statistics of kids and the
things you're struggling with and
suicide rates and you know and teenagers
and one of the things related to your
your last point about play and also just
related to attachment and right what
kids want more than anything else is to
feel connected to their parents and and
all and I know you're open about parts
of your parenting too but one of the
things I think about a lot
is what percentage of the time when I
looked at my parents did they have a
device between me and them like
literally it was Zero there weren't
devices you could carry around what
percentage of the time that one of my
kids looks at me do they not even see my
face but might they see literally
something blocking
their attachment with me not only their
screens my screens right yes the
parenting is much more difficult than it
should have been or it is done by Nature
if we understand human evolution then
um for hundreds of thousands of years
human beings and our precursors lived in
small band hunter-gather groups where
children were always there on their
parents and even our own species Homo
sapiens no in the United States today 25
of mothers have to go back to work
within two weeks are giving birth the
mother doesn't intend it that way it's
economic constraints that force her to
go back to work but it means that the
children loses the relationship the
constant contact with the parent that
his her their system naturally demands
for a much longer period of time and
even parents who are able to stay home
they're very stressed they don't have
the support of the community the clan
the extended family they're isolated so
we have a good inside Community there's
so many parents and I asked them to
share questions for you uh let's hear
from Megan
hi my name is Megan and I'm a mom to a
three and a half year old and a
two-year-old my question is for Dr Gabor
mate as it relates to sleep training
specifically the Ferber method or other
forms that are more or less that
my understanding is that he used to
advocate for it and promote sleep
training as a physician and now he
believes that it's harmful to an
infant's development and their long-term
emotional health
so my question is does he believe that
sleep training is detrimental to
development in an environment that
otherwise promotes a secure attachment
with primary caregivers and what would
he say to all the parents who have
practiced sleep training their children
I personally have sleep trains one of my
children and not the other I'm curious
to know what he says about the long-term
impact of sleep training on the one
child I did sleep train yes first of all
we have to say that state training would
desire to practice it is very
understandable in our society when we
were parenting in its communities and
his groups and extended families
parents had other adults to hold the kid
while they're rested so how we evolved
is there was no need for sleep training
a bear doesn't have to sleep during the
bear cubs cat mother doesn't have to
Sleep Train the little kittens kids
don't need to be trained her to sleep
they know how to sleep it's just that
they have needs and one of their needs
is that a passionate relationship and
that attachmentship is not time by the
hour you know so when they're lonely
they cry that cry is designed to bring
the parent to pick them up and to hold
them so Dr Spock who for decades was the
parenting Maven to millions of parents
talked about The Chronic resistance to
sleep of the infant the infants doesn't
have resistance to sleep
if it just sleeps when they want to
sleep and they want to be awake when
they're awake and as they grow older
they learn to sleep through the night
Spock's advice was that how you resist
the tyranny of the infant that's what he
called it is you will put them in a
badge you walk out of their room and you
shut the door and you don't go back in
other words you ignore the child's
desperate cries for attachment and being
held so
what are we teaching children why why
your kids crying either because they're
physically uncomfortable or hungry or
because the emotionally they need you
when you don't meet that need what
message does the child get that the
needs don't matter
like they don't matter that their
emotions will not be responded to on the
from the physiological level the kid is
stressed that's why they're crying when
a kid's stressed cortisol the stress
hormone is coursing through their body
when you pick up the child the cortisol
level go down when you don't pick up the
child the stress gets worse until the
child gives up becomes apathetic and
goes back to sleep to escape from the
distress now you've trained them to
sleep you've also taught them that their
emotions that their existence doesn't
matter to you now this is in a very this
is a very Stark way of putting it
however it's not the only Factor so if
parents absolutely have to sleep to in
their kids because their life is
impossible otherwise I'm not here to
blame them for that it's not the way it
ought to be
our culture really lets parents down by
putting that kind of pressure on them
what for example if that was decent
child support so that parents didn't
have to go back to work
then they wouldn't have to sleep all
night then they could you know look
after their kids so this is another
personal parenting failures we're
looking at the whole culture that just
doesn't value the importance of
connected parenting
but but but if you're in that situation
at least recognize that you are whether
you like it or not hurting your kid and
compensate for it during the day hold
them a lot really respond to them attach
with them connect with them attune with
them then you're mitigating the harm
so this is such a thoughtful question
from Megan and Gabor one of the things
that you talk about a lot which I
appreciate is parents are not equipped
or set up for any type of kind of
success in the world we live in right
the demands on adults and on Families
versus the lack of you know support of
any type always would mean if you're not
set up for Success everybody in any
situation would have to be making
decisions that are less than ideal
exactly so I know for me you know as a
pragmatist what I would say to parents
also listening is we do the best we can
with the resources we have and
what I know from a lot of parents who
have decided to Sleep Train is the
version of a human being they could be
while they weren't sleeping was really
really low and and if that's you
listening what I want to say is
putting any one decision aside making a
decision that you feel like I have to do
this even though it doesn't feel good to
show up for the other hours like I
understand that and those are those are
hard decisions to make and decisions
that you probably had to make and I do
think whatever research shows to me
about sleep training
I have a hard time imagining that it's
that versus things that are not able to
be measured attuning to your kid during
the day like you said picking them up
even saying hey last night you cried a
lot you wanted me and I didn't comment I
know that felt bad and yes or someone's
thinking I should say that to my
six-month-old yes yes you should do they
understand they do do they understand
the same way a 16 year old would no but
yes they understand and they get it and
that matters and you did not I'm just
gonna say this you did not mess up your
kid forever if you let them cry when you
needed sleep and if it feels right Megan
to say to your kid even though they
might look at you like what are you
talking about you know when you were a
baby and you you know you cried
sometimes at night and I didn't come and
I know at least the part of your memory
that's with words doesn't remember it
but I remember it and it felt bad and I
wanted to let you know that I know that
felt bad and I love you like that I
always think about repair like I think
that matters what do you think about
that well I totally agree with you and
that's what I was trying to say the
previous question if you have to do it
because the circumstances just constrain
you to do it at least realize what's
being lost and compensate for it as best
you can yeah you know so so sometimes we
have to give up things that nature would
have us do and most parents when they
sleep in their babies if you ask them
how did you feel while you're doing it
their heart was breaking because the
Apparently Instinct was screaming for
them to pick up that child so if you
really decide that you have to just as
you say then Becky at least attune with
the child and empathize with them and I
want to move to another question that's
also about childhood so this is um the
question I'm gonna play Let's listen it together
together
I have a question for Gabor around
building resilience and empathy in our
kids I love the way you teach
resiliences the ability to tolerate discomfort
discomfort
but for so many of us resilience was
taught as being
tough not letting things get you down
pushing through
and often shutting down feelings I've
also noticed people that don't seem to
cope well with discomfort feel
everything very deeply and have great
empathy but often as a result of
codependency so I'm curious to hear
gabor's thoughts on how to Foster
resilience and empathy in our kids
simultaneously is validating feelings
the key and is this enough well
well
um there's no contradiction between
resilience and empathy in fact the more
resilient the person is the more likely
they will they're going to be able to be
empathetic to others so resilience is
not pushing through you know I in the
book I give the example of a very famous
politician uh Hillary Clinton who the
night she was nominated for the
Democratic presidency in 2016.
they had a video of her life
shown on public television in front of
the thousands assembled at the
Democratic Democratic Convention and she
was talking about her mother helped to
become resilient and tough and the
example she gave was
that she's four years old she's being
bullied by neighborhood kids and she
runs into the house to seek protection
from the mom and the mom says there's no
room for cards in his house now you get
out there and deal with those kids
and this was given as an example of
resilience building
and the millions of people watching it
the commentators the journalists nobody
realized that what was being celebrated
is the traumatization of a child
because a four-year-old child who runs
for protection for mother is not a
coward she's a child
that's the natural thing to do the real
message to the child is that there's no
room for your vulnerability you have to
suck it up
60 years later the candidate becomes ill
with pneumonia do you all remember what
she did with it she got feverish and
dehydrated and she collapsed in the street
street
her secret servicemen had to lift her
into the van
because she was sucking it up
for the sake of Continuum
that's not resilience
that's ignoring your own needs is what
it is
resilience is
when you squeeze a rubber ball and it
gets defined and smaller I mean Let It
Go it bounced back to its original size
and capacities results in human terms is
the capacity to grow from negative
experience not to become more
constricted that's what resilience is
now how you teach resilience is you
teach faith in the person's capacity
to heal and to understand themselves you
know you do that is by fully accepting
and loving and supporting the child
and when you do that they will also
naturally develop empathy you yeah like
I I mean going back to attachment and
connection and aloneness right when a
kid is is really upset about something
they were bullied they were left out you
know they didn't make the soccer team
their body's gonna remember whether that
feeling was encoded in aloneness or
encoded in attachment and we all know
there's power in numbers right so your
kid's body remembers your parental
presence around that tough emotion which
inherently makes it you know a little
easier to cope with over time and so
yeah the idea of resilience is not as
toughening up but I love what you said
too of kind of expanding from an
experience or growing or not being alone
you know is a big difference just like I
think empathy there's a big difference
too right empathy to me it's not feeling
other people's feelings for them right
actually empathy requires really firm
boundaries between what is mine and what
is yours so people who are empathic
don't take on the feelings of others at
all right maybe that's more you know
codependency if you had to name it as
something but empathy actually requires
seeing oh that is that person's feelings
not mine I care about that person I care
about those feelings but I don't have to
take them into my body and process them
as if they're my own exactly and and a
lot of
but people call Compassion fatigue I I
often say that nobody gets tired of
being compassionate compassion is part
of our nature what they get tired of is
taking on other people's problems
because they lack compaction for
themselves you know so that empathy is
both fellow feeling with boundaries it's
not fellow feeling without boundaries so what
what
knowing that there's a lot of parents
listening to this knowing that also it's
easy when we hear new information to go
into uh I'm the worst I messed up my kid
forever mode I know I can do that too
any any last kind of words for you know
for the parents here yeah well I often
talk to groups of parents or groups in
which there's a lot of parents and I say
if you're worried about having screwed
up your kids don't worry about it of
course you did we all do you know we
can't help it in this particular culture
I certainly passed on my promise to my
kids first of all look at yourself the
fact is you did your best be all do our best
best
a best is constrained by what we know or
don't know about ourselves when we
become parents when I became a parent
there's a whole lot I didn't know about
myself and to the extent that I didn't I
passed on some of my issues to my kids
but they're also resilient they were
loved it's not a question of are they
without problems do they have the
capacity to work out those problems so
drop the guild is what I said parents
you did your best in a very difficult
culture in what I would say is a toxic
environment for parenting in many ways
and um
stay open to your kids at whatever age
if you have to own what you've missed or
what you did that you shouldn't have
done own it your guilt doesn't help your
kids in fact your kids don't want to be
seen Through The Eyes of your guilt
nobody wants to be seen as somebody
else's mistake or somebody else's
failure your kids don't deserve that
they don't need it then it's not good
for them yeah realize that you you
probably did
missed some things that you ought to
have done you you pass did some things
that you shouldn't have done
but you did do your best and continue to
do your best it's never too late to
develop a great relationship with you
kids never
thanks for listening to share a story or
ask me a question go to goodinsside.com
podcast you could also write me at
parenting is the hardest and most
important job in the world
and parents deserve resources and
support so they feel empowered confident
and connected I'm so excited to share
good inside membership the first
platform that brings together content
and experts you trust with a global
community of like valued parents
it's totally game changing
good inside with Dr Becky is produced by
Jesse Baker and Eric Newsom at
magnificent noise our production staff
includes Sabrina farhi julianat and
Kristen Mueller I would also like to
thank Erica belski Mary Panico Ashley
Valenzuela and the rest of the good
inside team
and One Last Thing Before I Let You Go
let's end by placing our hands on our
hearts and reminding ourselves
even as I struggle
and even as I have a hard time on the outside
outside
I remain good inside foreign
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