This content is an in-depth discussion with musician William Patrick Corgan about his diverse musical tastes, the enduring influence of various artists and genres, and his perspective on the current state and future of rock music.
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Before we start the music, just
introduce yourself.
>> My name is William Patrick Corgan, rank
contour, musician, artist, podcaster,
cafe owner, and uh wrestling imprario.
>> How we doing today?
>> I'm grumpy.
>> I like that attitude coming into the
game. What kind of music do you listen to?
to?
>> Mostly old country, >> really?
>> really?
>> Yeah. And a lot of jazz.
>> What kind of music do you want to focus
on? Should we just do a wide range?
Should we do
>> Well, you know, I I know your game and
I'm I'm like, is he going to embarrass
me with a bunch of obscure indie [ __ ]
that I don't know? Throw them on. Let's
find out.
>> All right, let's try this.
>> Yeah. Kiss. Shout it out loud.
>> Thoughts what? 76.
>> Why Kiss?
>> Well, I had the poster on the wall
before I even ever heard the band, which
was kind of weird. Somebody gave us a
poster was this famous poster. Kissed
it. This like 1776ish poster. Peter
Chris had like a bloody head band. So
then I eventually sorted like I got to
check this band out. And I got I kind of
got it right away. And I I always had a
soft spot for them. And then getting to
know them through the years and
interviewing them. as a wrestling
empressario, there's a lot to be learned
as well. There's a connection, I think,
between what they're doing aesthetically
in their performances and and
professional wrestling. Now,
>> you could argue that some of the most
successful rock bands of all time and
certainly in the most successful fight
promotion in the world, UFC, they
borrowed heavily heavily from wrestling
and how it promoted. Wrestling has a
much bigger imprint on American culture
than American culture wants to admit.
>> The president of the United States,
>> weren't they going to have a match?
>> He is a wrestler essentially. the
current president versus Vince McMahon
in the main event at Ford Field in
Detroit. I was actually there and I
watched uh our current president throw
the weakest clothes line I think I've
ever seen in my life.
>> You've never seen Donald Trump fight
like this.
>> Look at this. DONALD TRUMP.
>> IT'S Trump the thumper.
>> Everything comes back to wrestling.
>> It does. Yeah.
>> That's the cars.
>> Tell me about the cars.
>> One of the great underrated bands of all time.
time.
>> Yeah, I like that. Rick Oasic blew my
mind. I worked with Rick in the late
90s. I produced one of his solo records.
And then when I was doing my deep dive
in the cars before I was going to work
with Rick, I didn't realize he'd written
all the songs. My opening line was with
to Rick uh from a music point of view
was, "You [ __ ] you wrote all
those songs?" He was like, "Yeah, it was
so perfect." Rick was a total alpha, by
the way. You couldn't really tell it by
his sort of demeanor, but behind the
scenes, he was a total alpha. I just
think Car is just one of the great
American bands. I mean, what he was
influenced by everything from Suicide to
Andy Warhol to Vargas, you know, this
kind of ' 80s deco version of the world.
He was amazing. A one-t take singer in
the studio. What a talented guy.
>> You produced for Rick?
>> Yeah, I produced Rick produced for a lot
of other people as well.
>> Sure. Yeah, I know. He produced for
Weezer most famously.
>> What is that one? >> Mhm.
>> This is This is top secret supposed to
like film these boards. It's got all our
ideas on it.
>> Plus, you're not supposed to film him.
>> Yeah, you can't film.
>> He's copyrighted.
>> Rick was such a talented musician. And
and the other thing about Rick that
people may not realize is he had success
kind of later in life. His success with
the cars didn't come till he was like
about 30, which is pretty late in the
game for most people. Two for two.
>> Is this uh John Lennon doing Bowie or is
it David Bowie pretending to do John Lennon?
Lennon?
>> John Lennon.
>> Yeah, mind games. I I really like this
period of Lenin's writing. You know, I
know Sean Lennon a little bit and he's
been sort of overseeing all the recent
uh Lenin reissues, doing an amazing job
remixing a lot of the material. So, I
kind of went back and did a deep dive in
Lennin solo career and it's amazing how
many key songs he wrote even as a solo
artist. It's it's pretty mindboggling.
He he was the real deal on every level.
>> Were you a big Beatles fan growing up?
>> I I always say Beatles, greatest band of
all time. I don't think anyone will ever
beat them. And what's unfair is the
Beatles were the perfect band at the
perfect time. It's that combination of
cultural influence and that obviously so
much happened with the Beatles in seven
years. Lennon to me is the perfect aur
and that he had successes on a tour. So
for the art class and here we are in
indie central uh you know where tour
mustaches run rampant. The art scene is
always like we don't care about success.
And of course successful people get
really grumpy about not being considered
artists. Yeah. Lenin spoils all that
because you could be the ultimate artist
and the ultimate commercial salesperson.
And so I always use Lenin as a sort of
guiding light for me in that and that
you can write those songs that change
the world and you can sell records and
there's nothing wrong with that.
>> And I guess it's at the same time
similar time to Andy Warhol where it's
pop is cool but it's also artistic. They
were obsessed with Mottown. They were
obsessed with early rock and roll
records. They wanted hooks in their
songs and then they were like okay let's
also be artists. Also, McCartney also
grew up listening to show tunes. Yeah.
>> And there's a lot more show tunes in the
Beatles than people would would maybe
transparently realize.
>> They wanted to be Rogers and Hart at one point.
point.
>> Yeah. You know, the difficulty in
talking about the anything Beatles at
this point is so overexplored. It's like
it's almost impossible to have any kind
of fresh take. There's a great book that
is recent like John and Paul and it's
about their partnership and it goes into
the process of all the songs because how
often do you have a songwriting
partnership where they're both almost
every single song they wrote together?
There's very few that it was like one of
them did it and then the other one.
>> Yeah. But even later, didn't didn't
McCartney kind of try to change it and
get it changed so that his songs be
McCartney Lennon and so I don't know.
Great partnership though.
>> Let's keep going.
>> Oh, it's easy. All the young dudes uh m
the hoop obviously.
>> You mentioned Bowie. Why perform this
song on stage with Bowie at his 50th birthday?
And I did ask David, why did you choose
me to sing All the Young Dudes with you?
He goes, well, you know, there's that
line, Billy's got stars on his face, and
I thought of you. I was like, wow, what
a compliment.
>> How was that experience?
>> I was amazing. The Pumpkins were on tour
on the on the west coast of America. I
think Seattle or Vancouver, something
like that. And in order to do the show,
I had to get on a on a plane, come all
the way to play Madison Square Garden,
do the show, and literally get on a
plane and go back and play the next
night. Um, so it was big logistical
nightmare. So, I get there and I'm all
fried and, you know, tour weary and it's
soundcheck and, you know, there's all
these great artists, Frank Black, uh,
Robert Smith, Lou Reed, uh, you know,
star star study cast and I was very
honored to be involved and, uh, so it's
my turn for soundcheck. There was kind
of the eagle ramp out in the middle of
Madison Square Garden and I'm supposed
to go out there with David and play all
the young dudes and I think Jean Genie
and when I got out there and I knew
David a little bit personally, so it was
kind of weird. And I didn't want to say
anything because it was his big day. But
like he's over there and I'm like back here.
here.
And I thought, well, that's kind of
weird. That's kind of an egoy thing to
kind of put me behind him, right? I kept
that to myself for like 30 years. Never
said anything about it. Never said
anything to David about it afterwards. I
just kind of was just thought, "Okay,
it's just one of those things. He's
David Bowie. Okay, fine." I saw the
footage recently and I realized, "Oh my
god, the reason I was back is because he
was far shorter than me. So they wanted
us to look the same height on camera.
And recently I was talking to somebody
in Bow's world and before I could even
get the sense on my mouth was goes, "Oh,
it's had to totally had to do the hype
thing." So I had to sort of remove this
this stain on my heart that I've been
sort of dissed by David by being pushed
back on on stage.
>> Charlie Chaplain directing trick.
>> The other amazing thing, if you don't
mind me uh elaborating, because it was
such a beautiful moment. My spot was
about 2 hours into the show and he's
totally lthered up. You know, he's
sweating and then we get to the song,
he's like, "Oh, the young dude." He's
doing the full like now I'm getting full
David Bowie. Like just blew me out. Blew
me out of the water. Amazing.
>> Rush. Come on.
>> Tell me about Rush.
>> What can I say about Rush? One of the
greatest bands of all time. Happy to see
they're going to go out and play again.
I think it's really cool. Obviously,
been through a loss with their bandmate,
but I think it's perfect that they're
finally going to go back out and play.
There's so much love for them. I can't
even imagine the emotion that's going to
be in the room when they start playing
again. This is one of the great bands of
all time. And you know, I'm a bit of a
hipster killer in my other life when I'm
not talking to you. And Rush is the
ultimate hipster killer band.
>> Yeah. Why
>> the hipsters hated them? They're such a
fans band. They never were on the cover
of Rolling Stone. They never got any of
that love anywhere, especially in this town.
town.
>> And and here they are all these years
later. I mean, every rock star pretty
much in the world name checks that band.
So, what does that tell you? Is it like
a technical?
>> No, there's so much. No, there's so much
heart and rush. I think for those of us
who grew up in the 70s and 80s, Neil,
his lyrics particularly gave voice to
what it felt like to be a latch key kid
growing up in suburbia. That sense of
alienation. We didn't have the sense of
unity that the baby boomers had. They'd
already had Woodstock and the Beatles
and what did we get? You know what I
mean? We got disco and all this [ __ ] So
Rush kind of bonded us together over
something that was, yes, it was nerdy
and a bit toolken, but it also very much
of the heart. If you're a Rush fan, you
know that band is all heart. The people
who aren't fans, they get they get lost
in the technical part, but that's just
like the male way of giving a hug, you
know? It's like we're going to riff
together. We won't hug, but we'll just
riff together, you know? That's Rush.
>> I like that.
>> I want to throw an old country one in there.
there.
>> Is that Tammy? Why not?
>> Yeah. uh Billy Cheryl who just recently
passed away, I think. Great producer.
Amazing. I I I love that that I I know
it's called kind of country politan or
whatever, but I love that era of Nashville.
Nashville. >> Why?
>> Why?
>> Well, because Nashville uh was a
self-encclosed culture for many many
years and ignored once again by New
York. Yeah. But in the late60s because
of some of the success of the great
artists, the Johnny Cashes and the
George and Tammys and Buck Owens,
American culture had to start
integrating country culture into Ed
Sullivan and stuff because they couldn't
avoid IT ANYMORE.
>> THEY'RE GOING TO PUT me in the movies.
They're going to make a big star out of
me. and country because it was so built
on capitalism of course immediately
rushed to the other side of the room
abandoned all their rawhuned principles
and got very glossy and so there's a lot
of people that sort of feel that was the
betrayal of country and it didn't really
kind of come back until Whan and them
kind of brought back uh the rebel
country or whatever you want to call
that that movement but I I love polish
country especially from this period
>> they're just beautiful sounding
>> and by the way don't forget like when
we're listening to stuff like that
that's live
>> those songs are made in like under an
hour they go go in, they did give the
guys the charts, they they cook it up
and they get on the mic and they sing
one or two takes and that's it. They're
done. So, you're listening to like
polished art out the door.
>> I've been waiting for a guy to come and
take meision.
>> Yeah, there's a nice range of songs.
>> Okay, I got one for you. So, I've argued
for a good 20 years that probably
outside of the Beatles, Joy Division is
the most influential rock band of the
20th century.
>> I think it speaks for itself.
>> That's it. They sort of crystallized
post punk in a way that few bands ever
did and they became the template for so
many bands that have followed.
>> I want to dig in a little bit more. So
So this album comes out in like 1979. It
sounds like something a little bit more futuristic.
futuristic.
>> Well, it's pop music not made for a pop
market and that's why people are still
listening. But where does that music go?
I mean they had what one big song maybe
>> Yeah. I just think it is one of the
greatest bands of all time and um it's
such an easy case for me to make. I
don't know how to make it. I don't you
know what I'm saying? I should have more
more robust arguments.
>> What are the types of bands where that
influence is really felt?
>> Important bands like the Beatles and
Velvet Underground and Joy Division.
They create a template by which other
bands can create their own music and
they're basically ripping those bands
off in an unskilled way, but you don't
actually necessarily hear the influence.
There's So there's 400 Joy Division
bands, but you wouldn't necessarily hear
it because even if they're trying to
imitate Joy Division, they kind of
really can't. >> Yeah.
>> Yeah.
>> So that's where it gets weird about
those types of things. You can hear
Beatles influences in people, but you
can't necessarily hear Joy Division
influences. I hear it in the way they
sort of produce the records. I think
it's like that postpopalism thing that
was very big in Chicago, and it never
leaves here. I mean, they can never get
over it here. It's like a religion over here.
>> Susan Deans, she's spellbound.
So good.
>> One of the most underrated bands of all
time. Yeah. Huge influence on on my
music. Budgie's probably the greatest
alternative drummer that's ever come
down the line. And that's saying
something. There's been a lot of great
alternative drummers, but I think he's
the greatest. Suz's one of a kind voice.
Really unique music and very distinct
periods in their music and always had
success, right?
>> Yeah. Yeah. But again, very very
underrated in the American culture,
which is strange to me. Not with the alt
crowd, but like much bigger, I think, in
in European circles. Although they
ultimately came and had a lot of success
>> Yeah. I mean, if you've never listened
to Susan the Banshees, I think that's
like you're missing out on something.
>> She just wanted to be part of the scene.
Didn't just taught herself everything. And
And
>> well, she's she's truly one of those DIY
people. She was part of the early punk
movement. There's that famous video of
her on TV with like the sex pistols when
she's like 18.
>> Are you worried or are you just enjoying yourself?
yourself?
>> Enjoying myself.
>> Are you? >> Yeah,
>> Yeah,
>> that's what I thought she would do.
>> Always wanted to meet you.
>> We'll meet after it, shall we?
>> You dirty bastard.
>> You know, she was part of that OG crowd
and and yet she didn't follow that
musical idiom like a lot of people did
to try to basically milk the ses pistol
success in England. I mean she created
totally a wholly distinct uh part of
music and um even had a lot of influence
on the cure's later musical direction
which is which kind of gets lost in the
translation cuz Robert was in the band
No
>> Jeff Beck. >> Yes.
>> Yes.
>> Well tell me about Led Zeppelin.
>> I'm a hardcore fan. Like I have the
weird test pressings and all that type
of stuff. You know I'm one of those
weirdos. But what I say about Zeppelin
is as a musician it's unfair. They're so
good it's unfair. Like how does he sing
like that? You know what I mean? Jimmy
Page originally wanted Steve Marriott
who was the ultimate singer. So he got
basically a guy doing Steve Marriott
almost better than Steve Marriott who
becomes Robert Plant. The rest is
history. If anybody's ever heard the uh
the early version of Whole Lot of Love
that Led Zeppelin ripped off from Small
Faces, that's where you got to go down
down that rabbit hole. fooling.
fooling.
Hey woman, you need cooler.
You need cooling,
baby. I'm not fooling.
>> Nothing about Jeff Beck. We don't We
just skip about Jeff Beck.
>> Amazing. You know, when I was a kid, no,
but when I was a kid, my my father was a
very skilled guitar player, but he was
very snotty about guitar players. Yeah.
He was always dismissive of Clapton and
he thought Jeff Beck was the real deal.
And I said in an interview, so it became
a famous quote. I My father once said,
"Don't listen to Clapton. He sucks.
Listen to Jeff Beck and he told me this
when I was like 14, you know.
>> Do you agree with that?
>> No, I don't. No, I think Clapton is is
unbelievable. I know it's hard to even
put it in this way. I think Clapton is
underrated, which is weird because
they've been calling him a god since
1964 or whatever, 65. I think because
Clapton took his form of music into a
popular form and was able to reinvent it
many, many times. I think people don't
necessarily appreciate the depth and
beauty of Clapton's musical ability and
his playing. Jeff Beck becomes more of a
kind of like a guitarist guitar player
like oh you gotta listen to Jeff Beck
and then I think that's the point my dad
was making like he's the real deal but I
think Clapton is just as real a deal and
I don't think if you look at those three
guitar players that grew up around the
same time Jimmy Paige Jeff Beck and and
Eric Clapton basically I think 20 miles
away from each other I mean that's
pretty much the bible for rock guitar
that I grew up with and that influenced
everybody literally we're talking about
including Joy Division. I'm wondering,
can we go before are we going to Lonnie
Donigan Skifffl period here or
Well, Chuck Barry now, that's a
complicated legacy. Amazing uh
songwriter. Chuck's guitar playing is
obviously very influential. Keith
Richard, which would probably punch me
in the face if I said, you know, uh
Chuck Barry isn't the guitar player
everyone thinks he is. But um I rate
Chuck higher as a as a songwriter than I
do as a guitar player. I think his
guitar player was cool, but there were
other guys playing around that time that
were just as influential. You know,
Scotty Moore and guys like that, you
know, the original Rockabilly Cats.
Complicated legacy though with Chuck.
>> This guy instead
>> Colin Wolf smokes that lighting.
>> How do you feel about him?
>> He is a true mythical figure. He's like
something that steps out of a cartoon
and but he's real and he was a real
person. But I can't believe that he was
real. And if you listen to those
original recordings, sounds like it was
all recorded with one microphone. Yeah.
and is super raw. I think at some point
somebody put out a comp of all the
howling wolf stuff on Sun. It's
unbelievable. It's like the most pure
primitive rock and roll. And speaking of
Led Zeppelin, Jimmy Paige just went
like, "I'll take that. I'll take that.
I'll take that." Those guys ripped off
Holland Wolf Hard. And I think, you
know, guys like that end up being bitter
for a reason because they didn't
necessarily get the financial
renumeration that they should have
deserved for their influence. And I got
to actually play a benefit once with uh
Howland Wolf's guitar player Hubert
Sumland who lived in Milwaukee and came
down to Chicago for a benefit and I just
spent like an hour just like talking to
him about Holland Wolf and his his time
with him. So amazing experience. So like
again like to the average person if you
don't know who Hubert Sumlin is. I mean
Hubert Sumland basically did things that
all those other guys took and stole but
you know that's where rock can be cruel.
We don't always know about those guys
names. But definitely go listen to Early
Holland Wolf. I
I
>> I'm not really sure where where to go.
You did mention jazz, so we should throw
a jazz.
>> Is it monk?
>> Who do you like to listen to when you
listen to jazz? >> Um,
>> Um,
>> what style do you like to listen to or what?
what?
>> I'm I'm really I'm I'm I'm a big west
coast jazz fan.
>> I really like that even guys like
Charlie Parker went out west and kind of
played this more relaxed form of
nighttimey type jazz. I'm a big fan of a
guitar player from the West Coast 50s,
Jimmy Rainey. I recently found like
these 10-in press things in Japan of all
places of of original presses of Jimmy
Rainey records. So, um, love Oscar
Peterson for piano. Monk, of course,
amazing composer, but I'm not as big a
fan of his playing, but like I would
love to listen to say Oscar Peterson
play Monk's compositions. Charlie
Mingus, of course. I guess I'm very
interested in the composers. People can
kind of compose on the fly. Also a big
fan of Pharaoh Sanders. If you ever gone
in the early '7s, late60s, I don't know
if they would call it afro
consciousness. There was a sort of a
reconnection to the spiritual roots of
African music. So there was a huge
influx of that those kind of rhythms.
Pharaoh Sanders did some amazing
records. Also Alex Gold Train who was
married John Colrin did these kind of
There's a lot of cool stuff like jazz is
is infinite. Unfortunately, I think the
American jazz scene has really struggled
over the last 30 years and I don't know
what that's about. I don't know if it's
the donor class much like in classical
music kind of constraining jazz to a
like this is what jazz is or something
like I I even love free jazz, Albert Eer
and people like that or Net Coleman. I
could listen to that stuff all day. And
I'm I'm one of those nerds that go finds
the original pressings and I love all
that stuff.
>> Do you listen to contemporary music? Are
there artists
>> occasionally? But I feel I mean I guess
my my standard outline is they're not
making music for me. >> Yeah.
>> Yeah.
>> So even if I can appreciate and I like
and I go, "Oh, that's really good." And
we get we tend to take those artists on
tour with us because we want to help
them uh find an audience. I feel like
they're not singing songs for me. And I
think that's something I'm very uh
condemnatory about about the American
market. Unlike the European market, we
don't have those artists that are 50
plus where people say, "I want to hear
their new music because I want them to
speak from the perspective of being 50."
We seem in perpetual adolescence in this
culture. And I'm rewarded for that, too.
I mean, I'm in perpetual adolescence. I
mean, look at me. But but but Bob Dylan
and and Neil Young and Leonard Cohen and
Willie Nelson and Whan Jennings, great
artists show that they have plenty to
say after a certain age. And it can be
age specific to a hey I'm in a different
place in my life and I got these other
things I want to share. And I think
that's part of my own aspirational hope
is I still want to be able to contribute
in a way that speaks to people. Not
necessarily I can't speak to young
people but I want to talk about where I
am in my life. I don't need to stick on
you know I'm 28 and I'm doing drugs. You
know gets a little boring after a while.
>> Do you have a favorite contemporary band
of Smashing Pumpkins? Like uh someone
who came up around the same time. We
love My Bloody Valentine and we we were
friends with them and that's a band we
truly admired and we toured with some
great bands back in the day. Swerve
Driver, Garbage of course. Um gosh,
there were so many great bands in that
era and we saw them all play and in many
cases we got to know them. I mean Early
Sound Garden was unbelievable. Allison
Chains was unbelievable. Green Day's
Staying Power has been amazing. Billy at
the end of the day because he's a great
songwriter. I'm very proud of our
generation. And I mean, I'm not friends
with everybody in the sense that we hang
out, but I'm very proud that the music
that we made collectively has sort of
endured and has become in many ways more
valuable with time. So, I think it's a
cool thing to be a part of.
>> You think that there's going to be a
rock resurgence?
>> Oh, it's h happening. Just before I I
met you, uh I was talking with a friend
of mine and 60 to 70% of our audience
over the last two years has been under
25 and that just came out of nowhere. Yeah.
Yeah.
>> And this is no disrespect to our fans
over a certain age, but they tend to
want to hear like their favorite songs.
younger audiences want to see the band
play rock music and are less set
specific which is very interesting and
very much a new thing that's kind of
come online in the last two or three
years and I see so much evidence of uh
where young people are getting into
young rock bands. So it's definitely
coming. Um, I think it's just a matter
of finding that one or two bands that
break through like Nirvana did or like
the Pixies did that can kind of crack
open the sky and usher in because at the
end of the day, if they're not on the
award shows, you know, watch the
Grammys, there's almost no evidence that
rock exists yet. Rock is probably 70% of
the of the touring business in this
country. Why is there no rock
representation on the Grammys? Even the
VMAs, very limited rock representation.
So, we need young artists to kind of
break through and break it all wide back open.
open.
>> I have one for you. the young people. We
talk to regular people on the streets
all the time and young people, like you
said, 25 and under, love Smashing Pumpkins.
Pumpkins.
>> God bless.
>> You guys come up all the time.
>> I honestly think it's it's it's the lack
of uh everything being perfect. There's
a rawness there that's organic, and
that's the word I would use.
>> Almost like a little bit of a
Springsteen thing going on there. The
band's called Geese. >> Geese.
>> Geese. >> Geese.
>> Geese.
>> Not Goose.
>> Not Goose. Goose is another band that's
really good. >> Really?
>> Really? >> Yeah.
>> Yeah.
>> Another young band.
>> They're more jam band.
>> That's like That should be like They
should have a fight.
>> They both played at Newport at the same time.
time.
>> I was going to say Goose. It should be
Goose versus Geese and Win or Take All.
>> They going to go out on limb. That could
be the band. He just That's their second
album. Really young. Geese. >> Geese.
>> Geese.
>> They're like 21. on. This is where I
pull up my And I have a geese tattoo. Is
that Is that where we
>> Boom. Mic drop.
>> That was amazing.
>> Thank you.
>> Thank you for coming on the show. Great
to meet you.
>> You only stumped me with geese. That was good.
good.
>> I didn't think I was going to stump you,
so I had to bring out something new to
to show you.
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