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Darryl Moore - Gardening in a Changing World

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This content is a discussion about Daryl Moore's new book, which explores the multifaceted relationship between humans and plants, emphasizing their crucial role in ecosystems, human well-being, and the urgent need for a re-evaluation of this connection in the face of environmental crises.

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Kingsbury and with my colleague Annie

gilfoyle we ran Garden masterclass which

we started five years ago to do

educational workshops for garden and

Landscape people in the British Isles

ours and also into Europe in fact but

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well we really hope that you enjoy this

recording and please come back and try [Music]

[Music] anyway

anyway

um so we're welcoming Daryl Moore back

again hello Daryl um Daryl we have had

on guard masterclass before talking

about his work with cityscapes

um uh but tonight we are talking about

his amazing new book

um before um Daryl starts chatting about

the book I'd like to just um I'd like to

read the quote that's on the back by

Nigel dunnett

um because I think Nigel sums the book

up really really well

um the depth of research and knowledge

that's brought together here is quite

astounding and there is no let up from

start to finish in the skill with which

this often complex information is

communicated and and I have to agree

wholeheartedly and in fact I reviewed

this book for Gardens Illustrated um

earlier on in the year in the Autumn um

and I was absolutely Blown Away with the

amount of research and the amount of

information that's in here

um it is an extraordinary book and I

think it's a book that you can go back

and visit time and time again so so

Daryl welcome

thank you it's really nice it really is

a an intellectual tour de force I mean I think

think

um you know a lot of us have often felt

that the garden world uh suffers from a

lack of

um reflection

sometimes and uh this is a great book

for giving us a terrific overview of our

relationship with plants and and garden

history I mean it really Danny was

saying hugely well researched and in a

real intellectual tour de force so

congratulations yeah absolutely and and

Daryl before we talk about the contents

of the book you know I'd love to know

when you started researching it when you

got the idea I mean you know is it an

idea that you've had for a long time and

and was this a lockdown project because

I have a feeling it may well have been

something you could have really dug into

during that period but love to hear

about the the conception of the book

yeah sure

um it's getting a lot of disciplines

that I've been interested for a long

time so it's thinking about philosophy

sociology anthropology as well as Garden

history and ecology so it's sort of an

overview of all these things that I've

been thinking about you know for many

years and I've been a gun journalist

I've written about some of these sorts

of uh practitioners that I talk about in

the book as well but it was a lockdown project

project

um I met with my publisher the week we

went into the first lockdown here in

2020 in the UK so there was the streets

were deserted no one knew what was going

going on I had lunch in an empty

restaurant with them and then we signed

the contract and uh went to the British

library to renew my uh card there and

they said oh well we're going to be

closing in a couple of days so that's

that got paid to any research there so

uh yeah so I just wrote it over the

lockdown uh over 2020 it's just over to

sort of right then

um and also well so so could you not do

remote research with a British library

or was there just nobody there you you

know that was it closed doors everything

was closed

yeah it was just closed so I just I

researched everything online basically

which you know just took a lot delving

into a lot of different places to try

and find texts and yeah translating

websites and things like that so yeah

yeah so and somebody's asking we will

put the title into

um into the chat box um Noel's doing

that now just just so somebody's asking

and also we do have an offer on the

website but it is for UK residents only

so those of you that are further afield

we'll talk about other options but um I

think Noel has just put that in so thank

you now and so um how long did it take

you from sort of start to finish was

what you know was this a was this a

year-long project or more than a year

what was the period of time

yeah it was it was just over a year and

then a little bit uh sort of another

month or so afterwards to sort of just

edit all the footnotes and things that

took quite a while in itself but uh yeah

about 14 months or so something like

that and this was your first book or is

your first book yeah yeah that's right

goodness gracious okay so um do you want

to explain how because the book is sort

of divided up into quite

um quite sort of meaty chapters and sort

of almost more than chapters aren't they

do you want to sort of explain and talk

through the different chapters and and

the sort of you know the information and

what you're getting across in each of those

those

um sections yeah sure so it's different

uh different sections really so plants

as producers plants as Panacea plants as

pictures plants as processes plants as

possibilities and plants as Apartments

so I'll just do a short uh short reading

from the beginning of the book just to

sort of set set the idea of what uh

plants will produce and plants as

producers are and thinking about plants

putting plants into a bigger context so

as Noel said this is about a

relationship with plants and all those

sections look at different aspects of

our relationships with them so sort of

beginning at the beginning I I you know

call it in praise the plants

plants are all around us and a multitude

of geysers and sizes since they're

evolutionary migration out of aquatic

habitats onto land 420 million years ago

plants have become Adept at adapting to

their surroundings finding appropriate

locations with compatible neighbors and

living in communities that allow them to

flourish they cover 75 percent of the

planet's terrestrial surface and

constitute 80 percent of its total biomass

biomass

plants evolve to fit their environmental

conditions something reflected not only

in the forms they have developed but

also in their physiological processes of

their life cycles such as photosynthesis

respiration transpiration and growth

the relationships they have with their

surroundings are a product of

adaptations of the long stretches of

time through periods in which the

atmosphere has been hotter colder wetter

and drier than it is now the CO2

concentrations that have been both

higher and lower

the ways in which particular species

have adapted to these varying conditions

as well as how quickly have been crucial

in determining their survival or Extinction

Extinction

life on the planet as we know it today

is Unthinkable without plants they've

had an effect on the important

biogeochemical cycles of carbon oxygen

nutrients nitrogen phosphorus sulfur

Rock and water helping to shape not only

the terrestrial sphere but also

contributing to changes in the

atmosphere and oceans the roles that

plants have played in these Cycles have

paved the way for other species to

evolve and thrive

plants are so intricately interconnected

to other species and processes within

ecosystems that they could be considered

to be the glue that holds most of them

together as a species Homo sapiens has

co-evolved the plants and is bound to

them in many ways we are dependent on

them for our most basic needs from

oxygen to the nutrients we need to eat

in order to exist they also provide

humans with other essential material

needs in the form of clothing medicines

and materials for building but what is

the future that we're heading towards

mean for plants and our relationships

with them will they just be part of the

collateral damage we are causing or are

they potentially our greatest Ally in

solving the problems we face

so what I'm sort of obviously raising is

the importance of plants you know we can

sort of take a deep breath and pause and

think about it that deep breath is

thanks to plants through photosynthesis

providing us with the oxygen that we

breathe so we you know we're totally

dependent on them as our and the species

on the planet but obviously everything's

been changed now our relationship to the

environment has changed drastically with

the climate and biodiversity crisis so

we're having to sort of rethink

everything in the ways that we live so

as plants are the primary producers on

the planet it really makes sense to

address our relationship with them in in

all these different sorts of ways so

you know the beginning is looking at the

climate crisis looking at what's

happening there and looking at what's

happening to plants because obviously

plants have to adapt to these as I say

they've already adapted too many changes

through history the Earth's history not

simply our species history them have

been around for a lot longer than we

have so they're quite quite Savvy in the

way that they can they can can adapt to

these conditions but it's the rate of

change that is happening now is what's

you know what's new basically those

changes that have happened in the past

have been over long time periods what's

happening now is accelerated and

extremely fast and it's

anthropocentrically uh generated

basically no it's human uh caused so

power plants going to respond that's

what we need to be thinking about that's

what we need to be aware of and what we

need to be observing what's going on

because the changes in climate and we

were talking just a bit earlier before

we started about the different

temperatures and the different

conditions that that you know we're

experiencing all of us here on on this

call in different places and some people

are warm some people are cold some wet

some dry there's all these different

things going on and a lot of them are

quite what would be traditionally called

unseasonal they're out of sync with what

we would be expecting but this is

becoming more and more common This Is

The New Normal we can't really predict

what's happening with climate change

so we have to be aware of all these

unpredictable weather circumstances and

obviously plants have got to respond to

those so how are they going to do that

we've already seen a lot of species of

different uh animals and as well as

plants making migrations away from the

poles basically sort of a sort of

northward or south of migration away

from the equator so going for sort of

cooler climates trying to keep within

the temperate zone that they're

accustomed to but obviously plants

aren't as fast moving as animals so and

on certain plants are faster moving in

terms of their reproductive strategies

whether they're using Birds to sort of

set seed or whether they have to sort of

do this vegetatively so there are all

these uneven rates of plants moving and

migrating which has really serious

consequences for the ecosystems of which

they have involved within and a part of

because they're totally interconnected

Within These ecosystems so if certain

plants are moving different rates that's

going to change those ecosystems so we

you're totally dependent on having

healthy ecosystems that are diverse and

working together so if this if these are

going to sort of dissipate or fracture

then what are the consequences there

they're going to cause sort of positive

feedback loops and what's going on in

the environment and cause more problems

and more problems and more problems so

it's a kind of you know a very serious

kind of problem that's going on it's not

just about the CO2 in the atmosphere but

it's the consequences of that which is

having effects on ecosystems

um could I just interrupt I mean um

one of the worries we will have of

course is invasive species which tend to

be facilitated by climate change but

also wonder whether in fact the novel

ecosystems that are developing as a

result of our mixing and matching often

accidentally Flora from all over the

world might actually be part of a

healing process in in some places even

though at the moment it may be extremely

difficult to to appreciate that but in

the long run

is that a possibility you think is feasible

feasible

yeah no certainly I mean you know the

idea of sort of native and invasive

plants a false kind of categories really

I mean plants are adapted to local

conditions and you know they find where

they're suited to so when plants that

are considered invasive uh you know are

doing really well then they're actually

surviving they're doing what they're

supposed to be doing as a plant if that

was a person we'd be praising that

person and saying they're really good

they're expanding they're doing well if

that was a business it'd be praised you

know this is kind of crazy so we have

these kind of different standards by

which we judge things I mean obviously

invasive plants do have effects on

ecosystems and diversity so there are

you know serious consequences of that as

well but I think you're right you know

we are going to see these Noble

ecosystems developing and because that's

plants adapting to the conditions they

find themselves and yeah yeah and I

think as I put in my review that you

know if you if there was a prize for the

most timely book of the year I think you

would have won it this year because because

because

um you know with with you know the UK

certainly being it's our hottest year on

record and so you know this was this was

the perfect time to for this book to be

published so then leading us into the

next um section which is the plants as

Panacea can you explain a little bit

about what you what what you're um

thinking is here yeah

yeah

um obviously there's been a lot of talk

about plants and health and well-being

for people uh we we understand that you

know we do have these relationships and

these things do exist and some of them

are quite obvious and others are sort of

you know not made but they're not so

surprising either really I mean we sort

of we're we grew up as a species

outdoors in the environment so it's not

surprising that we should have these

relationships with it uh French film

director Agnes Barda said if we opened

up people we'd find Landscapes inside

them I mean Landscapes of our DNA

they're there you know where it's not

surprising that we have these

relationships because we've co-evolved

with plants throughout our entire

species history so of course they're

going to be good for our health and

well-being I mean obviously that the

health things from oxygen through to

sort of microbes that are on Plants

microbes they're on plants that then uh

in the air and we breathe in and then we

digest them into our microbiomes and our

guts you know we're not singular

entities we've got all these other

species living within and upon us and

that's part of the problem we see

ourselves as individuals as as a defined

species that is at the top of this

pyramid that we have created we called

ourselves Homo sapiens you know thinking

animals and giving us tells this kind of

big up Kudos and putting ourselves at

the top of the sort of terrific chains

basically and saying that we're the most

important species on the planet and that

is really disconnected us from the rest

of nature we are part of nature we're

organic carbon-based life forms you know

like a dragonfly or like a polar bear

you know with shared DNA with all these

other species as well but we've kind of

disconnected ourselves from them so I

talk about this disconnect from nature

or rather from the rest of nature

because we are nature and that's what

part of the problem is using the word

nature is that others everything else

apart from us so if we sort of talk

about the rest of nature we're

acknowledging that we are part of nature

but there are all these other species

out there so I sort of look at the

history of that through philosophy and

various sort of ideas that have

developed through religions and uh

looking at how it becomes sort of

distanced from all these other natural

processes that are going on

um and yeah

I remember this this whole thing about

whether or not we're part of nature it's

one of those discussions that you know

you can kind of go and down endless

rabbit holes and I remember having a an

email correspondence with a Chinese

colleague went on for what felt like

months about this and you know she would

very much argue that the traditional

Chinese way of looking at this is that

you know we are part of nature you know

full stop but I mean in terms of the end

results that does not mean that Chinese

culture has been any more respectful of

nature than ours has and in many ways

has been far more destructive so that

in a way I almost feel it if there's no

respect for the rest of whether it's

natural whether we're calling it

separate from us or not whether they're

any respect unless it doesn't seem to

actually make any difference

no I mean it is something which is very

culturally specific the way that this

has been interpreted and I sort of look

at more the sort of Western tradition of

philosophy and religions and things but

obviously there are indigenous cultures where

where

you know a connection with all the other

species within their environment is a

crucial part of their and what their

their epistemologies their entire ways

of living and thinking so it is

culturally specific and that's really

important to understand and as you say

you can these can be contradictory

things as well so it's but it's just worth

worth

we're thinking about things particularly

because now we're sort of dealing with

these crises on a global level so we

have all we have cop and we have

biodiversity Co-op and we have all these

un programs and things and they're all

using this kind of language about nature

and uh you know nature-based Solutions

and uh

all this kind of language which

effectively a lot of the time anyway

becomes rhetoric it becomes so distance

from what it's actually talking about

you know what we're talking about are

just all these other life forms doing

these things you know sort of

Environmental Services you know these

sorts of things are just species doing

what they do but if we're not

acknowledging that we're

instrumentalizing them and we're

instrumentalizing these processes and we

think we can then just apply them as if

we're applying you know a machine to to

do something and we need to address that

we need to acknowledge what's actually

going on and and and respect and and

appreciate these species whether they're

you know insects mammals or plants

basically yeah and of course you know as

Noel was saying I mean then politics is

also linked into this as well there was

there was a um a thing on the on Radio 4

this morning I mean obviously the UK is

in a in a complete and utter state of a

mess no matter what aspect of our our

country you look at at the moment but

they said you know they were actually

um talking about the you know the tens

of millions of pounds worth of

vegetables that rotted in fields this

year because there was nobody there to

um to gather and collect so you know

because of brexit and we you know we do

not have the labor force here

um and and that's just sort of one small

way of you know the fact that our

country is is really on its knees and

it's so utterly ridiculous and

disrespectful the fact that there are

farmers producing this food that is

rotting in field so they're losing their

livelihood and there are people going to

food banks to buy food or to get food

who are hungry and and so you know it is

there is this a massive disconnect isn't

there in in terms of how we how we

appreciate you know nature from a

political point of view as well

yeah there absolutely is and you know

that's sort of just pointing out the

fact that social justice and

environmental justice are intertwined we

can't separate these things we've got to

address them you know from the same

standpoint basically so you know they're

completely interconnected yeah yeah

um also in this section you talk about

the importance of plants in public

spaces and of course that's something

that you

um as a cityscapes as your your company

is very much involved with do you want

to just explain a little bit about that

yeah I mean obviously sort of since the

pandemic it runs in the UK understood

the importance of having access to Green

spaces so you know these City space Have

Become really important for people to go

out and and have this kind of connection

and outdoor spaces so obviously cities

are really uh built up and dense and

concrete so it's about sort of trying to

address that trying to break that down a

bit more and obviously what we do with

cityscapes is create pocket Parks bring

in plants wherever we can into these

hard Urban sort of areas because people

do need those kind of connections with

plants that are really important for all

the reasons you know I've been outlining

so it becomes looking at Urban Ecology

as a whole bigger picture really about

how we're interacting with plants in

cities in these sorts of spaces and it's

very difficult particularly in places

like London where property prices are at

a premium and everything's getting

redeveloped and redeveloped and

redeveloped and buildings often only

have five or ten year life spans now so

it's just trying to make the most of any

space that we can to sort of bringing

plants and bring people and plants

together yeah and we were talking just

before we started this talk about your

Chelsea Garden this year

um and um and the fact that you've now

re-homed that in in a couple of

locations could you just explain a

little bit about that as well so that

people who people who are not aware of

um you know your your other the other

other work that you do and and how and a

little bit about the garden because that

that I think is quite relevant at this point

point

yeah certainly

um so we did a garden for some mangas

the homelessness charity they have an

initiative called putting down Roots

where they use Horticultural therapy for

people recovering from homelessness and

the effects of homelessness so we've

been working with them for the past 10

years when we did uh one of our first

projects uh Gibbons rent a sort of

pocket park we transformed an Alleyway

into a sort of little hidden green Oasis

in the London Bridge area

and they sort of helped us on the

construction and they've been doing the

Aftercare on that for the past 10 years

uh they also worked with us on another

project around the corner from there

Greenwood theater so we got approached

by the rhs to do a garden with project

giving back who had funded a lot of

gardens this year and the next two years

at Chelsea and they said well you know

do a gun but you've got to do it with

the charity and so we said okay well

we'll do it with some mongers because

we've got this long-term close

relationship with them so uh so we we

designed this garden and it was trying

to highlight a lot of sustainable reuse

of materials so we took materials from

show guns at last year's show we got uh

brick pavers from our Anderson's Garden

we've got some scaffold boards that were

on the cop 26 garden and then we got off

cuts of Stone from suppliers we got some

colored Stone which is made from

recycled glass we got some steel

Planters and some hoops uh structural

Hoops made which were used using sort of

a about 20 recycled steel and a low

carbon cement bench so an 80 reduction

in CO2 on that so we just wanted to sort

of showcase creative ways of you reusing

materials and and really bringing down

carbon footprints on creating Gardens it

was all designed in a modular way so

that it could be taped put in and taken

out entirely through what we did in sort

of eliminating waste basically and then

it's gone on to two locations in the

London Bridge area which is where we do

a lot of our projects so some of the

Planters have gone to uh guys Hospital

you can campus King's College there at

guys hospital and the rest of it's gone

round to Southern Crown Court which is

uh just sort of on the river by HMS

Belfast there so yeah that's that's a

big sort of pocket park there so um you

know it's really important that we've

always used show gardens materials from

Shoguns and a number of projects we've

done over the years the remix garden and

new forms because you know Shoguns are

great for showcasing what guns can be

and what they can do but there's an

awful lot of waste that goes on that

shows and we want you know I've always

tried to address that so we've done that

and we've just completed the relocation

of our garden now uh about a month ago

so it's you know open to the public it's

all there it's looking good and yeah

well congratulations and at this point

just to mention that if people want to

know more about Daryl's work with

cityscapes Daryl did a talk for us which

is on our YouTube channel and and also

the project giving back that Daryl

referred to which is the charity that

actually marries up Charities and

designers we also talked to recently so

if you want to delve a little bit deeper

into both of those you you can find them

on on our YouTube channel so then Daryl

you go into plants as pictures

um and the different way plants are

being used in the gardens

so um

yeah what what

what's that um so plants as pictures

tell me more about that

so it's looking at the way that we've

used plants throughout Garden history

and looking at different periods of

garden history and particularly the last

sort of 100 Years of the British Garden

history which is really focused on sort

of the herbaceous border and uh using

plants uh well in a way it's not even

really using plants that's using flowers

to determine how we plant and structure

Gardens so it's using flowers but even

more specifically it's using the color

of flowers to arrange plants basically

so I call this sort of this group of

people the colorists and that that is

the primary defining way of planting it

goes from sort of Gertrude gigol onwards

basic throughout the sort of 20th

century and I look at that as a uh not

simply as a style but as as a form of

taste because taste is something which defines

defines

and sort of standard which in other

people aspire to and it's very much a

class-based taste as well because this

is sort of other classes defining what

Gardens are because they're the people

that had guns had big guns had the money

to have Gardens to to maintain them and

look after them and it becomes this

whole kind of way of

creating the idea of the garden oh it's

certainly of the British or very

specifically in the English garden which

defined taste throughout the 20th

century I think and so I look at that

history and I look at a history of

modernism the way that plants were used

in that both in the UK and the US and

and ballet marks and things so sort of

you know those which is more sort of

structural kind of ways of using things

form function that sort of way of using

things as well

so sort of going up to sort of up to I

guess sort of

um bath chatter really whether which who

you know she marks the Turning Point she

that's sort of the phrase right client

might please which is a tribute to her

um you know her sort of uh investigation

of plants and and natural habitats and

uh and her husband Andrew's work on

Plants is sort of it sort of was The

Game Changer in in that lineage of of

British Garden history so I sort of

Trace all that up to that point

I think this is one of the aspects that

makes your book so interesting is the

fact that I think you pick up the book

and you expect it just to be a one route

one one one major sort of subject that

you're looking at this changing world

but actually I love the way that you

delve into history and you delve into

other cultures and so you come out with

so much more a much broader uh Viewpoint

and and and I I find that I found that

surprising and really interesting that

it that you really did go not offered a

tangent necessarily but the book is so

much more than what it says on the cover

um was that difficult in in the

formatting of the book I mean did you

have that very clearly set out from the

get-go or did you did you kind of push

all of these ideas along and then how

you brought how you you know how did you

bring it all together

yeah no I had I had the overall

structure right at the beginning and in

fact I did a uh talk at the vegan garden

show a few years ago organized by Cleve

West at autism guy and that sort of had

the structure you know a lot of these

parts uh that are in the book yeah so

that was kind of so I had the kind of

overall layout and I just so I knew

where I wanted it to go I didn't write

it in the linear way I just I sort of

dipped and delved into different parts

and wrote different parts at different

times and it's kind of broken up in a

way that it is in sort of

pieces I mean my background in

journalism I guess I I've written almost

as if each bit is an article so you can

sort of pull out bits and pieces you

don't have to do it in a linear way if

you don't want to yeah so it's almost

kind of rhizomatic in that sort of way yeah

yeah

yeah yeah okay and then and then we then

we find ourselves at plants as processes

um so you know the principles and

practices of ecology-based planting and

plant communities and applications and

so yeah so where where were you going

with this section

yeah so obviously if we're thinking

about plants as pictures then we're

thinking about the them as being static

we're thinking about creating something

which looks the same

all the time or as much as possible you

know obviously the season will change

but things that are there and continuous

and constant but that requires an awful

lot of inputs you know whether it's it's

labor or whatever to maintain that kind

of semblance of stability whereas plants

aren't stable they're changing all the

time that's another idea of change as

well there are all these different ideas

of change in the book I think you know

and plants live you know in their

natural habitats and communities these

Dynamic communities which are changing

all the time so it's about understanding

the ecological processes of plants about

how they live their lives about how they

live in certain niches and perform their

their Life Strategies basically so it's

trying to understand all those kind of

ideas about what plants do and why they

do it so it's looking at some of the

theories behind that and then some of

the kind of sort of practitioners over

the past hundred years because there was

a kind of history that a lot of people

don't always know about and I look at

the United States the UK France Germany

and the Netherlands so looking at the

histories of sort of ecological

approaches to

planting through those kind of those

National cultures

and in terms of sort of international

ideas and international who do you think

is kind of leading the way or who do you

think is is is is is you know talking

sense I mean you know where do you where

do you think you know who do you think

has the has the voice at the moment or

or has the ideas that that

the world yeah I think what's

interesting is that by tracing them in

these kind of different sort of national

genealogies really you see that there's

certain approaches that are fit in with

certain cultural ideas as well so I

think there isn't a sort of right or

wrong idea in the differences between

them but they're all kind of culturally

defined and in their approaches all the

different practitioners so I think

that's what's really interesting I think

there are a lot of different approaches

and that's what we need as well you know

it is about diversity diversity is good

in ecosystems it's good and sort of

cultural ecosystems as well that we are

sort of trying out all these different

ideas because there is no one silver

bullet and things are going to be

different in different countries you

know obviously Mediterranean plants

behave differently to plants in the UK

in the temperate conditions so we do

need all these sort of different

approaches yeah I mean it's just that do

you think there are certain countries

that are just more Progressive or who

are more

um you know basically have have got you

know just their head around you know a

direction that they're going in or or or

is everybody sort of floundering a

little bit in in a greater greater or

lesser extent

no I think everyone's actually sharing

knowledge these days and there's a you

know a lot of moving obviously the best

Shadow symposiums the way you know

International ideas come together so so

there is a lot of sharing of information

and people are sort of aware but it is

about interpreting all this information

and putting it into a local context

because that's what's really it's about

understanding local specific conditions

wherever you are and and sort of trying

to understand what plants work in those

situations what they do as part of their

life cycles and what their strategies

are for living those lives

and I wonder I mean I went to the Beth

chatting conference this year and and it

was it was fantastic and you know you

are surrounded with like-minded people

and a lot of really interesting speakers

and you you as each speaker finishes you

you really want to hear more from each

of them and and you know it was this

really success successful event

um but I left and I I thought so what

happens next I mean have you any idea is

you know when you leave a conference

like that you are with people generally

like-minded people you're filled with

enthusiasm you go home then what I mean

have you ever sort of thought through

how how you can then take these you know

what how can we make changes how can we

make differences with you know that's I

always find that a little bit

frustrating because you leave sort of

you know full of enthusiasm and you're

going to change the world and

everybody's thinking the same thing and

then it slowly dissipates and I I'd love

to to figure out how when you you know

when you've got that momentum how you

can take it Forward have you got any

thoughts about that

yeah I mean you're right that that is

the problem and

um but I think it's a lot of the time

it's about what you do yourself it's

about learning more about plants you

know I mean I spend a lot of time

reading some research papers and delving

into the science of plants to see what's

happening but it's also just looking at

plants in natural or semi-natural

habitats and just looking at what

they're doing trying to understand

what's going on in the interactions

between them so it's just it's more

about continuous learning about learning

and things out and so so that's what I

do in our project I'm trying things out

we've done a couple of rain Gardens and

last month and that sort of thing for

the summit Council so we're trying out

different planting ideas looking at you

know what plants are going to be most

resilient creating these kind of Novel

ecosystems using different plants trying

out new ones to try and see how they

interact together and that's what end

those particular sites because they're

going to be different in every site as

well you know you can't they'll take

something as a blue blueprint and use it

everywhere you've got to be really

reacting to the specific site that

you're working with I think Andy was

asking basically was essentially a

political question I mean you come out

of the conference and it is all the warm

buzz and then you drive up to the very

first roundabout on the way out realized

just how you know bad things are and

there's this there's certainly in terms

of our public Landscapes now this this

is a deeply political question and that

with neoliberalism we've had this

massive attack on uh essentially

spending for the public good

um and those countries that have been

less affected by neoliberalism maybe

like Scandinavia and Germany have tend

to have much better public Landscapes uh

the the this this is a deeply political

question because the public landscape

and the planting within it you know it

is part of uh there's something very

Democratic about landscape you know it

is something that we all appreciate you

know we are all in in it and the quality

of that landscape is very much a you

know a measure of a society's uh

investment in in in in the in the public good

good

um and with the current state of things

you know it's it's difficult to feel

optimistic to be honest yeah yeah no

you're absolutely right no I mean that

yeah it's now on the head it is a real

problem particularly in this country

with the government at the moment you

know as we're going backwards you know

opening a new Coal Mine of an answer you

know that just doesn't make any sense at

all and that you know that can only come

from people who don't believe in climate

change so it is very difficult but I

think at local government levels there

is more going on people they are

investing in the environment and and

sort of doing planting projects in in

urban areas and that so that that's sort

of from my experience of dealing with

people on the ground so it is there so

it is just getting out and trying to

make those things and I guess you know

when I did my previous uh you know talk

on Garden master class and I did this

sort of session about sort of engaging

with these sort of local governments and

things like that I sort of laid out more

of a blueprint of how you go about that

and it's not easy it's you know it does

require a lot of time and effort it's

not you know you don't get a lot better

in terms of remuneration for doing that

because you have to put in so much time

but um you know if you do want to change

things you have to use that kind of

passion it's a form of activism and

that's what we do need we do come back

to this and then we've got it we've got

to you know talk again we've got to come

out of our kind of Silo in our kind of

world and our own history and we've got

to talk to other people you know people

who have got uh environmental interests

at heart and you know there is a growing

you know growing interest and and

passion for environmental issues if we

can get people to understand that plants

are primary to those processes of what

have changed then you know we can start

dialogues we can start more important

dialogue what we do more at the center

of what's going on and what should be

happening because your I mean your

business is fairly unique because you

are you are the people that are

interfacing and and connecting with

local councils and and Council you know

and getting getting things done and are

you finding do you find is is that a

battle do you find do you I I because

you're established now do you find that

that you know when you're going to talk

to local governments or level councils

that they're more receptive to you

um the doors open I mean how has that

changed over the years because you've

you've made a a name and a niche or is

it or are you you know how much of an

uphill is it

uh yeah I mean obviously initially it

was took a while to get us and

everything gets out there but we had

some good breaks and we made good

Partnerships and that's what it's all

about collaboration finding right people

and we've been fortunate in that kind of

respect so

um but I think you know there was

funding for the projects we did in the

past and still funding now but it comes

under different guys and so it just

changes between departments within local

government and things so it's just

knowing where that is but there's

certainly you know sort of um

money for Suds you know sustainable

Urban drainage systems and things like

that so Rain Guns all these sorts of

things and whilst you know it ticks

boxes in terms of dealing with sort of

one and thirty year flash flooding

events and that's something what you're

actually doing is creating a garden so

you know brings in this whole creative

potential to do these projects so there

is funding there there is impetus on

local level if not at National level

that's for sure

um that's encouraging and our people are

there people coming to you finding out

how you do it and and trying to emulate

what you do I mean are you are you

creating a little bit of a wave do you

think in terms of because because I do

feel it's it's it it's what you're doing

it's the point that you're at in terms

of the business that that that's taking

things to the next level so we come away

from the conference and we're all filled

with these wonderful ideas and we're

going to change the world but who's

going to do it and how we're going to do

it and you've you have really sort of

carved a niche that that's what you do

so do are you finding that people are

coming to you saying I'd like to do what

you do how do you do it or yeah yeah

people do it quickly and ask you know

questions and that sort of thing so you

know I'm always open to that and I'm

always trying to people possible and we

work with a lot of people we bring

people in we Mentor graduates and

students and things so we're always

trying to share that knowledge share

that experience

as well yeah yeah no that's fantastic so

just before we finish talking about just

the content of the book and then we can

open up the questions

um the last two sections of the book are

plants as possibilities and plants as

partners we've sort of been touching a

little bit on that possibly now but

um and you're asking what would a closer

relationship with plants look like and

mean so what do you think

a closer how do we develop that closer relationship

relationship

well sort of in those sections I I

looked at you know uh more contemporary

plant research as I say understanding

that is really important particularly

things that are looking at some

adaptation in the way that plants are

changing in relationship to the engine climate

climate

um understanding that a lot more and

also looking at

um different indigenous cultures you

know really talked about cultural

approaches and the way that different

people are embedded within their

environment so looking at that as well

trying to understand those again as I

see this comes down to the sort of

things that would have been discussed

the cop27 and social justice and

environmental justice are interconnected

again so this is about understanding all

these sorts of things but it's about

having respect for plants it's an

ethical standpoint in the end you know

at the end of the day it presents a kind

of ethical view that we need to reassess

our relationship with plants and and to

respect them in different ways and and

think about all the species and this is

about multi-species Justice and they're

all these different forms of Justice

which can't be separated they need to be

addressed simultaneously but getting a

better understanding and knowledge of

plants is the beginning of it and do you

think the covert period I mean you know

we talk a lot about this you know people

discovering their Gardens discovering

growing discovering nature do you think

that um is as big as we we make that out

to be and do you think there's a

continuation from that or people just

slip back into their old ways what what

are your thoughts now that we're coming

in back into a sort of normal sort of

normal life

yeah I I think there will be a bit of

tail off on that because people were

changing their time and resources to do

other things because you know in a fun

way during lockdowns we became like

plants we became rooted in the place

where we lived you know we were there

with the plant like and so people were

sort of adapting to that in the way that

plants adapt in these situations they

find themselves in true yeah it's quite

a nice analogy around here but now that

things have changed you know people are

you know they're going on holiday flying

doing all these kind of things that they

used to do so you know it was a it was a

point where we could have had a reset

but we didn't because there was no there

was no uh desire for that from from

International governments you know they

wanted the whole neoliberal context to

continue as it was business as usual

really so you know we are getting back

towards that but I think some of this

has really stuck with people people do

really understand the importance of

spaces of with plants in urban areas I

certainly find that when we've been

doing these projects this year the

relocations other projects that people

stopped to ask us what we're doing what

it's about and we say well this is a

sort of you know we're creating these

plant communities where you know it's

not going to look all nice neat and tidy

and they go oh it's great I like Wild

Spaces or oh yeah and people understand

these things now they're here in terms

likely Wilding and things like that and

they're just sort of got a lot more

interest in in what's going on in that

sense so I think there is there is a

pickup on it as well yeah yeah well that

that's encouraging um we've got some

comments comments question comments um

Dorothea it says as a Belgian visiting

the UK often I find that the state of

your public green isn't that bad

um I so appreciate the Grassroots

activist gardening that's being done

also the richness of the existing

biodiversity is still more present than

here meaning in Belgium just as an

example during the past summers my

windshield barely gets insect ridden

whereas at home and in the UK it does to

me that says a lot

um actually I'm I can't remember the

last time my my windscreen was covered

with insects but yeah yeah

yeah yeah Dave Gordon talks about that

in his talks about insects you know what

was inelegantly titled bug Splat you

know on your screens

and also you know it's kind of funny

because there's all these questions

around sort of uh Mowing roadsides and

things like burgers and things like that

and that we need to not be mowing them

as often certainly we were aware is

because we want to encourage

biodiversity but at the same time

they're probably the worst places for

insects to be because of vehicles and

yeah yes yes yes yes exactly nothing

straightforward that's what's you know I

know it's very it is very complex

um Katie is saying um your work reminds

me of what doug Ptolemy is talking about

um and then she goes on to say Doug

talamy proposed action through

encouraging everyone to plant a tree

also his home as a national park project so

um that's that's quite interesting

perhaps we should try and get dug on

Garden Master Class um

great I mean if there's any more any

anybody else has any more questions I'm

just seeing if there's any more there's

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YouTube Transcript:Darryl Moore - Gardening in a Changing World