The conversation explores the profound insights gained from reaching the age of 80, reflecting on life's regrets, and the importance of living authentically, emotionally, and connectedly, particularly in the context of modern society's pressures.
Mind Map
Click to expand
Click to explore the full interactive mind map • Zoom, pan, and navigate
Gabel you turned 80 yeah a few months
ago two months ago yeah how is that for you
um you know we had a really nice party
um you know we had a really nice party
um and my children came and they wrote
us some songs and they performed them
and uh close friends were there it was
very warm we had wonderful Palestinian
food uh catered and uh it was a really
good time and it
felt it felt like I arrived somewhere
you know and
uh nobody ever imagines being 80 I mean
do you imagine ever being 80 yeah it's
funny as you you ask that question no
you think about lots of things in life I
do imagine sometimes what it might be
like when my wife and I are old and what
we might do together but no I can't I
can't say I've ever imagined actually
being 80 years old yeah and at some
point it would have struck me as such an
impossibly U geriatric number you know
at this point is just a number you know
and it's it's almost
meaningless except it's not completely
meaningless because I know that the time
is one always knows that the time is
limited intellectually we understand is
that nobody lives forever and we never
know when the reaper is going to come
knocking on your door but at the same
time once you get to be 80 you realize
that whenever it's going to happen it's
going to happen within a fairly short
period of time and when I think of when
I retired from active Medical Practice
it was um 13 years ago now well will I
still be alive 13 years from now and it
seems like just a short period of time
so when you think about it it's quite um
dramatic but on the other hand from the
moment to moment and day to day it just
doesn't make any difference
yeah there's something about the number
80 yeah I think
and of course we know it's just another
day and it's just a number but does
something change when you wake up and
your family and your friends celebrate
hey Gaba you're now 80 years old yeah
does it in some way change the way you
see yourself or or I guess reflect
differently on who you are and where you
are in your
life and most days I can say this and
not on every day for sure but it's a
kind of ease enter in my life even with
all that's going on in the world I'm
just sort of
more I don't struggle with the way
things are so much I may like them or
not like them I may react or not respond
or but there's not a struggle against
just the beingness of
things um I'm certainly noticing that
yeah and and uh people I had a visitor a
week ago who I hadn't seen for a few
years and she says youve changed and I
said oh yeah she say you've become
softer you know and um if that's true
it's it's good it's a sign of kind of loosening
inside you used to work in paliative
care yeah and I think you're familiar
with the book by bronnie we the palive
care nurse five regrets of the dying
yeah what I thought would be
interesting today for our fourth convers
a on my podcast together yeah is to
maybe go through each of those five
regrets because I I just I'd love to
know from your perspective what each of
these regrets says yeah about where we
are who we are yeah what things were
important to us yeah and so the first of
those five regrets is I wish I had the
courage to live a life true to myself
not the life others expected of me yeah
and so let's keep in mind
that like when I used to work in Pala of
care which I did for seven years and
this nurse who wrote the book she's AUST
tralian and she wrote the book about 12
years ago now they weren't talking about
people dying at old age they were mostly
it's about people dying before their
time MH and so the regrets that they had
um as their terminal illness usually
malignancy or perhaps chronic autoimmune disease
disease
um brought them to the end of their physical
physical
existence what did they regret and the
top one was I wish I had the courage to
live my own life rather than the one
that people expected of
me I would reframe
that because there's a deep truth in it
and as you know and perhaps we've talked
about from my point of view very often
the people that do develop chronic
illness are people that have their own
true s for the sake of being accepted to
others and that self-suppression has
deep physiological consequences on the
immune system on the nervous system on
the heart and so on so that that
self-suppression is also physiological
self annihilation in some
ways but when she talks about courage
that's a self- judgment they're saying
to themselves I wish it had the courage
as if it was a question of cowardice it
isn't it's a question of programming
like you and I are both parents we know
this no infant is born suppressing
themselves no infant enters the first
day on this Earth trying to please
anybody they're just being purely
themselves yeah expressing their Joy
when it's there expressing their upset
their distress when that's dominant but
they're purely themselves so that what
she calls courage or what these people
call courage of being myself is actually
a trauma imprint that for some reason
they learned early in life that to be
themselves is to court rejection by
their environment so it's not a lack of
Courage you can't talk about a
one-year-old lacking courage or a
two-year-old it's simply an
adaptation now later on they say courage
but really that's
a that courage is or the lack of it is a
shorthand for something happened to me
that I gave up my true self for the sake
of being accepted and that cost me
uh first of all it cost them in terms of
physical illness but also cost them in
terms of self-respect and and dignity
it's a major one yeah are you living a
life at the moment that's true to
yourself I am now um uh I I sense that I
have I believe that I am um
that doesn't mean every second I do you
know but on the whole I do and it feels
really good and I know you know I had
dinner last night and and and you were
telling me that you're finding
yourself far more self expressed and and
and comfortable with who you are than
you used to so that's the good news
people is that this is a process that
can continue for a lifetime yeah but
I I really see that people who suppress
themselves really suffer
yeah so that first regret I wish I had
the courage to live a life true to
myself um I'm really glad you picked out
the word courage because that word also
stands out to me yeah it's very
interesting to use that words yeah um
well it's a self judgment isn't it it is
you know I could have done better I
should have had the courage is what that
kind of says
yeah it's interesting you said when when
you turned
80 or as a consequence of you turning 80
you realize that well 13 years ago you
gave it your medical practice yeah will
you be alive in 13 years that's very
striking yeah are you afraid of death
um in principle I'm not you know um but
I don't really know till I have to face
it I won't know how afraid I am until it
confronts me you know at this point I
feel healthy and I get to do what I want
to do
and I have Vigor and I have interests
and excitement and and love and and um
likes and dislikes and I'm quite alive you
you
know what happens when I have to
confront the actuality of it I have no
idea how I'm going to respond so it's
sometimes I get fear around it I mean
there's I don't want to give this up I
don't want to give up this
life but other times I say well if I do
I've lived and it's been good and
there's not much to regret you know so
yes and no but I won't really know until
I'm up against
about your um your Journeys with plant medicine
medicine
yeah does that change anything
for you I guess or has that changed
anything in terms of how you may view
what happens at the end of human life
because people many people will say for
them it does change how they perceive
themselves how they perceive death how
they perceive what this experience of
life actually really is well
specifically as you're probably aware
they've done studies on Endo life
anxiety with Salos cybin so-called magic
mushrooms and um
people report spiritual experiences yeah
and people report a significant
abatement of anxiety they had on di
these are people who terminally ill and
uh nothing that the medical profession
could offer
to reverse the course of their fatal
Illness but they had much less anxiety
about dying as a result of those spiritual
spiritual
experiences that were induced by taking
them mushroom yeah uh for
me I've never faced death in that sense
when I think of some of my psych like
experiences and if in retrospect I allow
myself to sink into them I can say in
that state that would not be afraid of
death I'd say that there's a larger
reality than
the persistence or sensation of this
particular lung m
uh represents you know I would say that
if I project myself back into those
experiences again how I will face it
when it happens or when it becomes
inevitable um I don't know yeah
yeah
society's view or this society's view of
people getting older yeah 80 seems to be
the age where we often expect people to
be doing less
you know being less mobile less vital
not everyone of course but but many you
seem to be someone who has
this love of life this Vigor this
message you want to share you seem to be
traveling all over the
globe at you know pretty regular
intervals you youve come to London for 4
days you going help me do some teaching
with doctors tomorrow which is
incredible but a lot of 80-year-olds are
not doing that yeah
yeah
right and the longevity space within
medicine has really exploded over the
last few
years people love talking about
longevity right and I think we're
missing something in our discussions
about longevity well I think there's a
couple of things what what do you think
we're missing I
think it depends what you mean by
longevous first of all right so yes some
people want to know how can I not
necessarily live longer but be
independent mobile vital as long as I
live so Health span versus lifespan yeah
and I get that yeah but there's a lot of
talk these days about extending lifespan
living to 150 and Beyond and all kinds
of crazy stuff right and I don't want to
be the I don't want to stand in the way
of human progress at
all my one of my phase is that in
Pursuit Of Living
longer are we missing something about
the Beauty and the essence of what life
really is life is finite the fact that
it's finite is what makes it so
beautiful yeah if we could live to 200
yeah would we have even more of these
regrets because we'd keep taking life
for granted you know what I you're
talking my language because to tell you
the truth to coin a phrase all this
stuff about longevity bores me to death
you know um I just don't care you
know what really matters is what does
this moment bring us or what can we
bring to this moment you know let the
future take care of itself you know like
Jesus says take no thought for tomorrow
you know and um I really think that this
longevity movement is a sign of deep
social anxiety and especially you get
these rich people in California with their
their
cryo technology of freezing the body
hoping that 100 years from now they'll
be able to unfrozen and there'll be
treatments for the you know it bores me
you know what really matters is for me
is what makes life meaningful and active
and engaged in the present moment and um
it's interesting in
English we talk about growing
older now that's a very telling phrase because
because
in significant ways when we get older we
shrink you know like our
bodies our skin starts to Sag our
muscles are no longer as you
know Supple and strong as they used to
be so what does it mean to grow
older we could just say like you said
earlier get older which is just a
chronological progression but growing
older implies that this growth is
actually possible so in what sense can
we actually grow grow and I think
actually we can actually grow into the
present moment and and and growing in
our grow our appreciation for life and
what matters and and knowing what
doesn't matter and growing in wisdom
indigenous cultures they don't talk
about elderly they talk about Elders
yeah a huge difference yeah so um I
think there's
a natural reverence for age that senior
cultures would respect and modern
society kind of
um dismisses you know now do I wish that
my hair was blacker and more curly the
way it used to be yeah I do you know and
it wasn't gray and my hair wasn't
thinning at the top and I sure I wish that
that
but H at the same time I would not going
to be as unconscious as I was yeah when
my hair was blacker and curlier you know
yeah this is such an interesting point
I've spoken to several menopause experts
on the show oh yeah over the past
years and I remember when doing some
research on one of the conversations I
came across research showing that in
cultures where women are revered as they
get older yeah their wisdom is respected
they're seen as really important parts
of the community right those cultures
report less menopausal symptoms isn't
that interesting I just so I'm not
misinterpreted I want to be really clear
I'm not saying that that means that all
menopausal symptoms would go away if
that was the case I just find it
interesting that when the cultural view
of growing old is different yeah we
perceive ourselves as having I don't
know a different symptom profile if if I
can put it like that and and and and the
degree of suffering is different
so that maybe they have symptoms or
maybe they have certain features but the
suffering is not experienced the same
way please expand on that because I
think some people will go what do you
mean if you're either getting symptoms
or you're not getting symptoms explain
what you mean by perception of you know
the the suffering essentially well I was
talking to somebody else about this
today so in as you as you and I know in
Western medicine we kind of medicalize
everything and so we talk about
premenstrual syndrome not which PMS it's
a syndrome it's a medical entity what is
it really is that under the impact of
hormonal changes women get more
sensitized so they might have more
physical pain and more
upset but we can see that as
pathological or we could actually say
truthtellah ize them to things that are
not functioning in in their lives which
the rest of the time they are curated to
acous with and to put up with yeah but
the menstrual ferment in their bodies
makes it less tolerable so instead of
seeing that as a pathology we could see
it as a time of insight and what if they
actually listen to their bodies and
listen to what their body saying know to
that the rest of the month they kind of
suppress then that could be seen as a
time of wisdom rather than a time of
suffering so
the the physical things are there but
but it doesn't have to be experienced as
suffering could be experienced as a time of
truthtotable menopause as well yeah this
kind of speaks to the second regret
which is I wish I hadn't worked so hard yeah
yeah
and what I mean by that
is I agree
that for many women
yeah and I can think of so many patients
like this them their hormonal
symptoms we actually showing them that
the way you're currently living is not
in harmony with your body exactly now of
course sometimes people struggle to make
change it's hard to make change maybe
their life is Mega stressful and at that
moment they can't change it for whatever
reason and I totally I empathize with
that I I understand yeah but for some
people who are able to it's in sometimes
it's one of the best things that has
happened to them yeah now this thing of
I wish I hadn't worked so
hard that's an interesting one because I
wish I hadn't worked so hard and what do
I mean by that
like like
uh speaking for myself and I don't know
if this is true for you but I became a
physician for some really good reasons
one of them was I genuinely wanted to
help suffering humanity and I thought
perfect pathway through which I could
help people that's genuine and I meant
it I
also chose a profession where I was
fairly confident of making a decent
living so I could support
a a life for myself and my family that's legitimate
legitimate
but those reasons don't make you work
too hard they make you work hard but
they don't make you work too hard what
makes you work too hard and that's what
these people are saying is you're driven
by something that you're not even aware
of and what I wasn't aware of when I
went to medical school and when I was a
physician for decades is how driven I
was to justify my existence in the world
and to prove her that I was important
and worthwhile
and so on and that had to do with the
loss of those that confidence owing to
Early Childhood trauma and so the it's
not a question nobody says I wish I W
hadn't worked hard to achieve something
in life you have to work hard they're
saying I wish I worked too hard and that
to part the Too part comes from being
driven by unconscious needs to validate
Your Existence where why should any
human being have to validate their
existence you know and so that's what
they're saying and when you're driven to
work too hard you actually ignore what
matters and what matters is um what you
were telling me last night about how
much it matters for you to spend time
with your family so every summer you
take a bunch of weeks away from your
podcast and you just spend time enjoying
your kids and and and your wife and your
family and I didn't do that I for me was
very hard to even take holidays I always
felt they had to keep working if
somebody was in pregnant my God what if
I would miss their delivery like the
baby couldn't enter the world without me
you know so that drivenness is what
makes people work too hard and so not a
matter of working hard it's a matter of
working too hard and where does that
come from a gain that comes from
childhood trauma a lot of doctors and I
have several friends like this they
don't take their full allowance of annual
annual
leave sounds like you may have been
similar I had that tendency yeah yeah
and often people will
say and I have a friend who says this
yeah but my patients need me no they
don't need them they need medical help
yeah but I think we have to ask
ourselves and this is very very common
in medicine actually I'm sure it's
common in other um professions as well
yeah it's interesting when you don't
take your full allowance of annual leave
that your contract entitles you to it's
often paid time off right it's part of
your job when you're not taking it of
course there can be reasons for that
there can be reasonable reasons there
can be work reasons but if you're not I
think you I think it may be worth
reflecting on some of those
underlying you know those real drivers
of that well it occurs to me that what
your friend is actually saying is not
that my patients need me but I need my
patients yeah to feel okay and when I'm
not working to help them I don't know
who I am and I don't feel comfortable
myself so I need them now that means get
it to a therapist and deal with it and
and not only that even Your Capacity to
help your patience over time will be
eroded toally by the way you're
stressing yourself and you're not taking
care of yourself and Physicians are
notoriously programmed to ignore
themselves and there was a very
interesting study that I mentioned in
the book The Myth of normal they looked
at the fraying of the
chromosomes um of people and you know
when we're born we were born with
certain structures called telome and
telome are DNA structures at the end of
our chromosomes and their fraying and
their shortening is a mark of aging and
of stress and they looked at the the
telome of medical residents compared to
other people their age they age f faster
they Fray
faster and so Physicians are driven to actually
actually
um not spare themselves and to literally
consume themselves in the work in the
long term that may make you a very
popular and very successful doctor in
the long term it's going to be at the
expense of your marriage and of your
children and of your own mental and physical
physical
health for me if I look at that
situation and I
reflect on
society and
culture what I see these days is a
very it's very me focused culture where
Community has been gradually eroded out
yeah and therefore if we think about a
human being a human being needs to feel
that there of value to other people we
need that
it's in our
tribes you know 50,000 years ago we
would have felt of value because we
would have a role and other people would
see that role they would benefit from it
and we would benefit from the things
they were doing you know whether it's
someone's hunting someone's Gathering
someone's putting the fire on whatever
it might
be in this me Focus culture where it's
all me me me and what are my needs and
what do I need to do and how can I better
better
myself I feel that we often don't feel a
Val to others we don't feel
important and so it makes sense that in
that culture you might overwork you
might keep pushing yourself because if
you're not working and feeling important
there then actually you may not have
that sensation in any other aspects of
your life well if well if you weren't
given the um it's very
simple if in early childhood you given
the sense that you're valued just
because you existed
your parents welcome you and validate
you and value you and and celebrate you
just because you
are then you don't have to keep proving
it afterwards MH but if you don't get
that sense then you have to be important
yeah so that sense of needing to be
important has to come from missing out
on being valued for who you are or being
only valued for your achievements you
know you're valued like look my parents
blessed their souls but they valued my
intelligence you know and so
so a lot of my Persona was caught up in
being smart and and proving my value
that way well it's good to be
intelligent but your value should
doesn't depend on or shouldn't depend on
any one quality whether you're cute or
cuddly or handsome or successful or good
at sports or smart in school any of that
your value is
intrinsic inate inherent cuz a human
being in a society as you say it tends
to Value people for what they do and so
that can become very very addictive but
again going back to your friend who says
my parent my patients need me and you
think about it and I'm not accusing them
of anything but they're not realizing
just egotistical that statement is is as
if it dependent on them their patients
need good medical care but they don't
need him or her or them specifically
which means that they should be able to
take care of themselves as long as they
make sure that when they're not there MH
their patients are receiving the care
that they need so it's not about us and
I used to think it was always about me
if I'm not there for the delivery of
this particular Woman's baby oh my God
you know like as if it all depended on
me there's probably a control issue
there as well isn't there that I I know
how I would do it exactly I need to be
there cuz I know how I would manage this
birth and that sort of stuff which is an
inability to let go exact someone else
can probably do this as well yeah or if
they can't do it as well so be it you
know so be it you know yeah as I was
walking to the studio this morning
thinking about our
conversation the word impressive kept
coming up for
me and I'm being reflecting on the word
impressive because again I think
culturally we we think it's a good thing
to impress others okay that bit of work
you did is impressive MH but actually if
you if you really unpick impressive or
certainly if I do
it it implies to me and maybe this is my
own bias because this is what I have
done for much of my life yeah I've
changed who I am in
order to impress others yeah I didn't
feel I impressed others by being myself
yeah I impressed them by changing yeah
so what comes up for you when you hear
the word impressive have we got it wrong
has it
been you know has it been taken to mean
something it's not like how how do you
see the word impressive
H well [Music]
[Music]
um impressive first of all has to do
with what it has to do with our impact
on other people how others see us
us
so if I can just be myself and express
my own truth and not drive myself into activities
activities
that are not good for me and people are
impressed well that's
great but if my intention is to impress
other people if I need for me to make a
certain impression in somebody body
else's mind then where am I living that
I'm living in their minds rather than in
myself so the question is where do I
want to live here or in your mind you
know and uh our society is so
um addicted to people being impressive
in the minds of others that means that
we live in the minds of others don't
more than we live in ourselves so if I
can if you can be yourself and find out
if I find that impressive that's great
but you're not doing it to impress me
you're just doing it because that's
you're expressing who you are if I'm
impressed great if I'm not
impressed that doesn't take anything
away from you but to the degree that we
depend on impressing others we're robbing
robbing
ourselves so that's how I see that word
just taking a quick break to give a
shout out to Vivo barefoot shoes now
I've been a huge fan of Vivo Barefoot
for over 10 years now well before they
started supporting my podcast they are
the only shoes that I wear and they
really have had a huge impact on my own
life and the lives of many of my
patients you see when people start
wearing Minimalist Shoes like vivos you
can see improvements in things like back
pain hip pain knee pain foot pain even
things like planta fasciitis can often
get better and scientific research shows
us that just wearing Vios for 4 months
or so improves the strength in your feet
by over 60% which is absolutely
incredible one thing people don't
realize about these shoes is just how
flexible they are which allows your feet
to do what your feet naturally want to
do rather than the shoe dictating your
foot's movement Vivo Barefoot are giving
my audience a 15% off onetime codes when
you make your first order and they make
it really easy for you to give them a
try they give a 100 day trial for new
customers so if you don't like them you
just send them back for a full refund
I'm a huge fan I really hope you take
advantage of this offer to get your 15%
off codes all you need to do is go to Vivo
barfoot.co.nz my emotions yeah which is
I guess not dissimilar to the first one
about living a life that's true to
yourself no and it again it again
there's the word courage that shows up
themselves and more interesting way to
put it is why is it that I didn't
express my feelings you know now here's
the thing um again in my writing in the
MTH of normal I quote this great
neuroscientist who died in his mid 70s
of cancer a few years ago those of us
who knew him still mourn him his name
was Dr Yak pank p n k s p p he was uh
from the Baltic states whether he was
Estonian I think he was but maybe latian
you know and he was an effective
neuroscientist so he studied the
neurobiology of
emotions and wrote a book called The
archaeology of the Mind it's one of the
seal books of modern science and he
pointed out that we share certain
emotional circuits with other
animals so we have circuit and he
capitalized these circuits these systems
so the c a r e the care system MH and
there was a system for
anger system for
fear for lust for playfulness for joy in
other words for seeking which is
curiosity um
grief and we share these brain circuits
with other mammals in other words these
emotions are not luxuries they are
emotionally I should say they are
evolutionally determined aspects of who
we are
so if you take the care [Music]
[Music]
system it's essential because without
care the Maman infant doesn't survive MH
there's got to be something in the
parent brain that drives that parent to
take care of the infant and something
that's in the infant's brain that impels
them to connect with the parent in order
to be taken care of that's just
evolutionary biology
so we have all these emotional systems
anger is one of them um as I mentioned
fear grief or
others and children one of the emotional
needs of children when I studied
and invest you know and interviewed
experts on Child Development one of the
things I learned and write about is that
one of the needs of children for healthy
brain development is the freedom to
experience and express all the emotions
that come up for them that's just
necessary for health um
now what happens in this Society where a
lot of parents get the message that
certain emotions on the part of their
their kids are not acceptable so you
know a kid might experience a loss like
a dog might die or grandpa might die and
the child is upset and the parent can't
handle the child's grief so snap out of
it it's just a dog or or you get over it
people die you know um or a child
experiences anger uh because you didn't
give them a cookie before dinner you
know and a 2-year-old fors a tantrum and
you can't handle it I think you know
I've talked about this before
then the child gets the message that in
order to be acceptable to the parent
they have to suppress their emotions so
when these people talk about that and
that suppression of emotion as I've
often made the case with you and in my
books actually under mying health and
and our physiology and our immune system
so when these people in their
dying weeks regret not having had the
courage to express their emotions what
they're really talking about is that
long time before when they were children
they were forced to suppress their
emotions for the sake of being accepted
yeah and now they regret it because they
they sense that they were forced to
abandon themselves and so again I would
remove the word
courage and ask instead of judging them
for lacking courage I would say what
happened to them because again no infant
left lacks the capacity to express their emotions
emotions
yeah so if they lose it it's cuz they
learned that they had
to it terms of something practical
around this point gabo
if if there's any parents
listening and their kids let's
say sometimes get angry or have a
tantrum whatever it might be yeah of
course there is a certain conditioning
in our certainly in Western Society
about what one should do about that yeah
given your view in terms of what is
important for a child and what you've
just said what would you encourage a
parent to do when their child is I was
going to use the word playing up but
that's a ridiculous term because playing
up is a societal construct a child is
just expressing emotions we're calling
it playing up because we don't like you
know what it's doing or what the people
next door we're thinking or whatever it
might be right the North American drum
is acting out acting out yeah do they
use that phrase here yeah they do they
use this phrase H yeah so so going back
to that
um the parent who may be
struggling but wants to be a better
parent wants to go actually you know
what gab I really want to make sure that
I allow my child to express their
emotions yeah do you have any advice to
me what would you say to them no I do well
well
so you know there's um
we can talk about three modes of
parenting one is the permissive
parenting where you allow any behavior
and you don't interfere you know that's
not that's the worst thing you can do
kids needs to but that is allowing them
to express themselves yeah but there's a
difference they might Express themselves
by hitting their sibling for example and
you don't allow that parents need to
kids need to feel that somebody's in
charge yeah parenting is not a democracy
it's a hierarchy
um in a hierarchy there's a dominant
Force the parent dominates the child not
to exploit or to suppress but to nurture
and to support you know so that you know
you live in Manchester and I don't know
how cold it gets in Manchester but if
you have a one-year-old child they don't
get to vote on whether they get to crawl
outside in the wintertime in Manchester
you know naked you know the parents says
no you don't go outside naked you know
you have to get put clothes on that's
just how it is it's a hierarchy it's not
a democracy the one-year-old doesn't get
a vote okay and being going into the
slush and the snow in the middle of
December or whenever um so that's
permissive parenting that's not very
good U then there's repressive parenting
which some experts that we've talked about
about
Advocate that's authoritarian
parenting in between him is the golden
mean so there's permissive parenting
here authoritarian parenting here then
there's authoritative parenting in the
middle authoritative parenting is I'm in
charge I know it's good for you um I'm
the authority um so I know what to do
with you so if a child is upset you say
oh you're upset you know you're angry
with Mommy momy wouldn't let you have a
cookie before dinner yeah you're really
upset about that yeah well come here I
know how you feel in other words you
validate the emotion you don't punish
the child for it and you hold the child
cuz the child needs to learn Le that
they can go through these difficult
emotions and get through them and still
be loved and still be loved yeah now
that doesn't mean you let them pull the
cat's tail or to break the break the
glass you know smash the furniture or
hit their sibling but it doesn't mean
you validate the emotions and you hold
them and then they learn ah and and
actually and when they it's also age
specific like there's no point saying to
an one and a halfy old Let's find let's
express it through words they don't have
the words but to 5-year-old you can say
can we find some words for your anger in
other words you can teach them to
express their emotions in ways that are
um socially appropriate yeah so at any
age you have to be age appropriate but
fundamentally you validate the emotions
and you hold the child and you make them
feel that you can have this emotions I
don't want you to behaving that way but
you can have the emotion and I'm not
going to reject you for it it's not that
hard and people do it intuitively
sometimes yeah and the impact of
parenting like
that will be felt for the rest of that
child's life well absolutely and that's
the key isn't it you look look around
Society it's very very hard to not make
the case that we have the set up
Society so that those early years are
where the kids get good nutrition they
have calm environments they have present
parents you know I'm always shocked at
the amount of leave that um people in
America get or mothers get in jobs in
America I think one of my
friends Partners in America got two
weeks off oh which which I I I what two
weeks off after giving birth well when I
researched the myth of normal I found
that 25% of women in the states go back
to work within 2 weeks of giving birth
which 25% of women now needless to say
this is both economically and racially
determined but it means that it's a
massive abandonment of the child yeah
because en from the point of view of the
development of enzymes in the child the
child's physiological unfoldment
psychological security they need the
mother for many many many many months
and you try and take an infant away from
a an
orangutang at two weeks and see what
happens yeah you know and uh in
fact they've done some very cruel
studies with monkeys that shows the
impact of maternal deprivation at those
early ages you know studies
that are terrible to read about yeah and
they prove what they prove that love and
contact and connection is important
something we should have known all along
but the point is that that's statistic
that 25% of women have to go back to
work within two weeks of work within two
weeks of giving birth it's a massive
abandonment of children the impact of
which will show up in their mental and
physical health decades on yeah and then
problems tomorrow is the yearly
prescribing lifestyle medicine course
that I've been running uh with a
colleague Dr a panga since 2018 and of
course you're going to be the guest
speaker tomorrow and I'm I'm really
excited that we're going to be able to
communicate with doctors and share your
work and how they can bring your work
into their practice it's really really
exciting one of the things I'm [Music]
[Music]
hoping you're going to be able to share
with the audience
tomorrow is what I think is the biggest
hole in medical school training if you'd
asked me 5 years ago I may have said oh
nutrition and sleep and we need to teach
doctors about the import s of this stuff
and we do yeah but if I had to choose
one thing that I think is the biggest
hole in medical training
today for me it's that doctors a lot of
doctors leave medical school without an
understanding that our emotions oh I see
what you're saying yeah that the
way we think holding on to anger
resentment not being able to forgive and
move on
I really don't feel within medicine
there's an understanding that this can
contribute to ill health yeah it's such
a gap and um I think both you and I have
had to discover it not as a consequence
but despite our medical education yeah
and uh when you're in practice and you I
mean as a family physician um we do have
an advantage over specialist colleagues
in that we know people before they get
sick yeah so we get to see who gets sick
and uh I couldn't help but notice that
people's emotional lives are so
intertwined with the physiological health
health
and as you suggest nobody in medical
school told me that it's it's a huge gap
it it it also has to do with how we
relate to ourselves by the way because
the way doctors are trained is very
often very stressful and very um almost
traumatic in significant ways so that in
that's why I mentioned the word
self-care because in being trained to
stoically ignore ourselves we also are
dismissing the importance of emotions in
our clients yeah so that I wish there
was more emphasis in medical school on
dealing with our own stuff yeah for sure
and in conjunction with that therefore
the awareness of the importance of
people's emotional lives yeah and and
what's really interesting here is that
some of the great pioneers of medic
have known this all along and they've
said it hundreds of years ago
well je Martin shco who first described
multiple sclerosis said that this is
related to stress and grief and uh it is
statistically and according to studies
since then but he just saw it he didn't
you know and uh there's a Great British
surgeon James padet yeah you know padet
disease and he operated in on women with
breast cancer and he said that breast
cancer is indubitably related to
emotional factors that is so evident
that it's hard to ignore and so these
great pioneers said this and their
teachings have been completely ignored
yeah let's be really clear this is such
a delicate area for people
because many people perceive that as
fault and as blame I know you don't mean
it like that I don't mean it like that
when I talk about it either yeah but
often it's like what are you saying that
I did this to myself right you must have
had that before people must have said
that yeah yeah just just clarify that
for them please well really we've been
talking about it that the um suppression of
of
emotion nobody's born with it and it's
not a lack of courage or wisdom it's a
programmed response to Childhood
experience so people have got the
message be before they uh had any choice
in the matter that if they are truly
themselves if they express who they are
their emot tions just like we've been
talking about they won't be accepted so
that's a programming that people um are
engrained in in their Early Childhood
how is that their fault yeah it's just
the way they adapted to the environment
necessarily as a matter of fact it was
an inevitable and unavoidable adaptation
because the alternative of being
rejected by their families or their
milar was not acceptable to a small
child so therefore Nobody Does this to themselves
themselves
in any conscious or deliberate
sense what I can tell you is that when
people are diagnosed and they become
aware of these Dynamics they find that
liberating yeah so uh in the methon
normal I quote the um the American
singer shell Crow who was diagnosed with
breast cancer and she said that before
the diagnosis I was always pleasing
others and not expressing myself and
there was always a voice in my head that
I'm wrong and
I have to adjust myself to other
people's expect I'm paraphrasing her but
she but she said I've learned
differently now and now I'm really
paying attention to myself so again
that's this idea of disease as teacher
now Cheryl Crow wasn't born like that
and she didn't choose to be that way
that was her response to her upbringing
so nobody's being faulted here but we
are saying people if you allow that
disease to wake you up and to teach you
something you might have a whole lot
better life than you could have imagined
yeah I think this is really really
interesting we can first of all make the
case to people that emotions matter the
express the the ability to express your
emotions is important if you repress
them yeah it may well have some quite
severe physical consequences yeah so
let's say that a doctor accepts that
goes okay so what do I do with that well
what do doctors do with it well here's the
the
thing it depends how you're oriented
like I'm kind of psychologically
oriented I've always been I've always
been interested in it um so for me it
was a
natural movement from Strictly focusing
on the physical symptoms to dealing with
the whole person another physician May
recognize the value of this but not have
the orientation to deal with it but at
least they can say to their clients
listen there's a lot of information so
when you come in with your rheumato
arthritis or your multiple sclerosis or
your chronic eczema or chronic migraines
or irritable ball syndrome or
inflammatory ball disease or whatever
you happen to present with there's a lot
of information now a lot of scientific
information information that uh shows
the connection between actually in fact
the unity of mind and body and the
inextricable relationship between the
immune system and emotions and so on I'm
not myself trained in that I'm going to
deal with the physical aspects of
illness I'm going to prescribe for you
the anti-inflammatories or the immune
suppressants or the steroids whatever
you happen to need to mitigate the
symptoms but can I send you to somebody
so you can talk about this stuff would
that interest you you know so you can do
that so we're not necessarily talking
about every doctor having to become an
expert on this but at least they should
be a aware of it so they can steer
people to a broader approach to their
illness number one number two there's
certain simple things any doctor can ask
like one of my books when the body says
no that's the title um and in the myid
of normal there's a chapter called but
before the body says no you can ask your
client it's a very simple question where
in your life are you not saying
no who doesn't know that wants to be
said but you're not saying it for the
sake of pleasing others can you just
consider that one because that simple
issue of not saying no can play Havoc
with your health because if you're not
saying no when when you when you're
wanting to say no you're actually
suppressing yourself and then you're
taking on more stress and more burden so
those simple questions any doctor can
ask so it's not as complicated as all
that yeah but the point is the first
step is just to be aware of the
connection that mentioned between
emotions and
Physiology then if the physician wants
to take on a deeper study of it they can
if they don't at least they can guide
people to to to to to explore that
connection somewhere else yeah
completely agree thank you yeah fourth
regret I wish I stayed in touch with my
friends yeah well what we're talking
there is and it goes back to the others
about working too hard you know for
example um what are what are they
discussing there is the need for
attachment for connection for
belonging and what these people are
saying is I was too driven by whatever
factors impelled me to ignore my
personal relationships and to P my
attention on things that ultimately don't
don't
matter my acquisition my attainment my
achievement uh rather than the heart-to-
heart human contact with people that
matter to me and
again people are driven to be that way
and when they look back on their life
they regret it because nobody is is
often be said nobody ever on a deathbed
regrets not going to the office often
enough but they do regret the heart
connection that that that they'
sacrificed have you stayed in touch with your
your
friends well you know uh that's where
you could say that I haven't um I mean I
have more much more recently it it
matters to me much more now but over the
years um I put work and my busyness and
my writing ahead of all
that is it at all balanced out by the
fact that your work and your writings
yeah have influenced the lives of
millions of people I guess what I'm
trying to get at
is on a personal level you may have
sacrificed your friendships
yeah but perhaps the world has benefited
from Dr mate doing
that is is that fair to say it's fair to
say and to some extent I accept that
that I've made certain decisions and
those decisions have benefited many and
it means that there's certain things
they missed out on um but not
completely and uh I'm much more prone
now to seek out those friendships and to
strengthen them and to celebrate them
and to Value them and I I I have some
really good friends you know and the
people that really care about me and I
care about them and we're there for each
other no matter what you know so that
matters to me much more than it used to
and uh to put it to the
test if I were to choose to live my life
over again I wouldn't live it in this
way yeah I
would say yeah I I have some insights I
have some capacity to articulate some
truths uh that are really important and
I'm not going to let that dominate how I
live my
life um and I think it would have been
possible for me
put those teachings out to the world
that I get the feeling feedback that it
does help a lot of people but I could
have done that without the drivenness
without the sacrificing of the heart
without the and and connection that
sometimes that entails so you know again
if I could live it do it over again I
would do it differently and I don't
think in the end that would have
detracted from my message and if it did
I would accept accept that
yeah to make sure you're taking action
after watching this video I have created
a free breathing guide that's going to
help you reduce stress calm your mind
and boost your energy in this guide I
share with you six really simple
breathing practices that work
immediately even just one minute a day
will start to make a big difference to
receive your free guides all you have to
do is click on the link in the
description box below one is I wish I'd
let myself be happier yeah what does that
that
say well that always reminds me of
because I mentioned Dr pep and his
concept of the brain circuits yeah one
of them is for play and
um do you know winner the Poo yeah okay not
not
personally the book uh and uh that was
me my favorite books and uh I've talked
about this before the end of that book
would bring tears to my eyes for years
because How It Ends is Christopher Robin
by the way that's a whole other thing
the relationship between a mil and his
son Christopher was a very fraud and
difficult one right and and Christopher
actually resented the books because he
felt that his father was buying these
toys to write about rather than for his
own benefit wow oh they had a very diff
there photograph of the two of them and
the kid is looking so alienated he had a
tough life and but that's a whole other
story but the book in in the book
Christopher Robin the little boy now has
to go to school yeah and he has to learn
about history and factors and
Mathematics and so on and he's telling
his friends the toy animals that he
anymore and in the end Christopher and
Winnie the bear of little brain uh who's
the smartest of the whole lot and they
walk off together and the the book ends
with the statement something like and
whatever they do or wherever they go in
the Enchanted Forest a little boy and
his bear will always be playing together
and that phrase would bring tears to my
years because play is so important and
joy is so important and that's what
these people are talking about and they
didn't allow themselves to experience it
they sacrific to play in the joy for all
these other
things you know and so
um the good thing is you know um I mean
my marriage the best thing you know what
the best thing in my marriage is the way
we play together the first time I dated
my wife Ray I knocked on the parents'
door and I said can Ray come out and
play and we've been doing it ever since and
and
so um
um I believe what's being described in
that last regret is people sacrifice their playfulness yeah their joyfulness
their playfulness yeah their joyfulness for the sake of being accepted and being
for the sake of being accepted and being successful and all that it's a huge one
successful and all that it's a huge one play is built into our
play is built into our brains kids play spontaneously infants
brains kids play spontaneously infants play M and um in that
play M and um in that sense we can all be win the Pooh and and
sense we can all be win the Pooh and and Christopher we can always keep playing
Christopher we can always keep playing in the Enchanted Forest and that's just
in the Enchanted Forest and that's just essential I
essential I think in that final regrets is the word
think in that final regrets is the word happier yeah what does happiness mean to
happier yeah what does happiness mean to you uh really it means the capacity to
you uh really it means the capacity to play and to be in the present moment and
play and to be in the present moment and and and and and you know the kids when
and and and and you know the kids when when kids play they don't worry about
when kids play they don't worry about the
the the appropriately they don't worry about
the appropriately they don't worry about the war wherever or or climate change
the war wherever or or climate change just playing in the moment they're fully
just playing in the moment they're fully present to themselves in imaginative
present to themselves in imaginative almost hypnotically imaginative States
almost hypnotically imaginative States so happiness just means being in the
so happiness just means being in the present and being allowed to be no
present and being allowed to be no matter what to have the capacity to
matter what to have the capacity to play a lot of people today gabo and I
play a lot of people today gabo and I think you have struggled with this as
think you have struggled with this as well from what I
well from what I know feel with so much heartache and
know feel with so much heartache and suffering in the world yeah they feel
suffering in the world yeah they feel that they have no right to be happy
that they have no right to be happy what's your take on that
what's your take on that well
well um first of
um first of all Bob Dylan said somewhere that it's
all Bob Dylan said somewhere that it's difficult to be completely happy when
difficult to be completely happy when other people are suffering it's true so
other people are suffering it's true so what this this is a time of terrible
what this this is a time of terrible suffering you know how I feel about Gaza
suffering you know how I feel about Gaza and the terrible things that are
and the terrible things that are happening there how can I be completely
happening there how can I be completely happy I can't be completely happy I
happy I can't be completely happy I can't because I can't not think about
can't because I can't not think about that the horror of it
that the horror of it um but at the same time and this is
um but at the same time and this is why people might
why people might start get weirded out but I'm talking
start get weirded out but I'm talking about a psychedelic experience this is
about a psychedelic experience this is three or four years ago I did
three or four years ago I did uh I worked with psychedelics both as a
uh I worked with psychedelics both as a Healer but also as a subject and I was
Healer but also as a subject and I was having a mushroom
having a mushroom experience and the same thing would
experience and the same thing would happened with AOS
happened with AOS once and
once and I've always been one that felt that how
I've always been one that felt that how could I be happy when asit is possible
could I be happy when asit is possible when as what happened when my
when as what happened when my grandparents perished there how can I be
grandparents perished there how can I be happy what right do I have to be happy
happy what right do I have to be happy if that can happen in the world and that
if that can happen in the world and that did happen in the
did happen in the world and both the plants showed me at
world and both the plants showed me at some point that happened and yes you can
some point that happened and yes you can be happy that the one doesn't detract
be happy that the one doesn't detract from the other that that the capacity to
from the other that that the capacity to be empathetic and to recognize the grief
be empathetic and to recognize the grief and to hold the grief does not obviate
and to hold the grief does not obviate the capacity to be happy and one doesn't
the capacity to be happy and one doesn't one does not one is not
one does not one is not disloyal to the suffering in the world
disloyal to the suffering in the world by allowing ourselves to be happy so
by allowing ourselves to be happy so there's no necessary contradiction and
there's no necessary contradiction and I I've seen people on death
I I've seen people on death row who if they win their appeal
row who if they win their appeal the best thing they can hope for is life
the best thing they can hope for is life in jail without life in prison without
in jail without life in prison without parole but they're happy and how do they
parole but they're happy and how do they become
become happy
happy meditation working through their
meditation working through their traumas having remorse for what they did
traumas having remorse for what they did connecting with other people and just
connecting with other people and just connecting with the present moment and
connecting with the present moment and I'm thinking my God if people in that
I'm thinking my God if people in that situation can be genuinely happy which
situation can be genuinely happy which I've seen
I've seen i' I've had contact with the people then
i' I've had contact with the people then who am I to say that I can't be happy
who am I to say that I can't be happy yeah so so there's ultimately there's no
yeah so so there's ultimately there's no contradiction yeah now in this Society
contradiction yeah now in this Society there's way too much emphasis on you
there's way too much emphasis on you know don't worry be happy Let's ignore
know don't worry be happy Let's ignore all the bad stuff that's going on let's
all the bad stuff that's going on let's just concentrate on how we can make
just concentrate on how we can make ourselves pleased or or pleasured or
ourselves pleased or or pleasured or whatever I'm not talking about that no
whatever I'm not talking about that no I'm talking about being able to hold
I'm talking about being able to hold both at the same time yeah you have to
both at the same time yeah you have to and this is something I feel I've really
and this is something I feel I've really grown into the last years that I
grown into the last years that I actually can be very happy and content
actually can be very happy and content yeah whilst there is heartache in the
yeah whilst there is heartache in the world it doesn't mean I don't care I
world it doesn't mean I don't care I actually deeply care yeah but I realized
actually deeply care yeah but I realized that it's real skill it's an evolution
that it's real skill it's an evolution of the self to be able to hold those two
of the self to be able to hold those two yeah I really do think that I think it's
yeah I really do think that I think it's growth that's right I very much love the
growth that's right I very much love the phrase uh that's attributed to
phrase uh that's attributed to Gandhi be the change you want to see in
Gandhi be the change you want to see in the world
the world yeah I I live I try my best to live my
yeah I I live I try my best to live my life by that and why that's relevant to
life by that and why that's relevant to this part of the conversation is I said
this part of the conversation is I said this once at a live event I said listen
this once at a live event I said listen if you watch the news and you allow this
if you watch the news and you allow this is a few years ago allow the heartache
is a few years ago allow the heartache that's going on in name the country
that's going on in name the country right to affect you so much so that you
right to affect you so much so that you develop apathy you can't interact with
develop apathy you can't interact with your husband with your children you you
your husband with your children you you you just drink more and more alcohol
you just drink more and more alcohol even to numb your pain yeah what does
even to numb your pain yeah what does that do yeah right you're no good to the
that do yeah right you're no good to the people who are suffering you're no good
people who are suffering you're no good to those people around you and that then
to those people around you and that then ripples to everyone around you whereas
ripples to everyone around you whereas if you can learn to be content where
if you can learn to be content where you're at yeah if you then do want to go
you're at yeah if you then do want to go and help in whatever way you're much
and help in whatever way you're much more able to you know volunteer send
more able to you know volunteer send money whatever it might be yeah so I I
money whatever it might be yeah so I I think this is I think this is a really
think this is I think this is a really important point for people especially
important point for people especially the way things are in the world at the
the way things are in the world at the moment a lot of people feel I've got no
moment a lot of people feel I've got no right to be happy yeah well I I no
right to be happy yeah well I I no longer believe I used to believe that
longer believe I used to believe that and somebody once said to be sent to me
and somebody once said to be sent to me don't be so loyal to your
don't be so loyal to your suffering and um that's a lesson I've
suffering and um that's a lesson I've had to learn fairly late in life yeah
had to learn fairly late in life yeah um and as I quote in the midth of normal
um and as I quote in the midth of normal my friend Bessel Vander the trauma uh
my friend Bessel Vander the trauma uh psychiatrist looked at me once this is
psychiatrist looked at me once this is about 10 12 years ago we having lunch
about 10 12 years ago we having lunch and he said gaboy you don't have to drag
and he said gaboy you don't have to drag arit around everywhere you go and what
arit around everywhere you go and what he meant by that is that you don't have
he meant by that is that you don't have to let that affect your present moment
to let that affect your present moment that you can be aware of it hold a
that you can be aware of it hold a memory of it but not let it determine
memory of it but not let it determine your internal States you know and and
your internal States you know and and it's true and I I understood
it's true and I I understood intellectually at that time what he
intellectually at that time what he meant but it was only later that it I
meant but it was only later that it I was actually able to emotionally let go
was actually able to emotionally let go let's just talk about forgiveness then
let's just talk about forgiveness then because a lot of the time people
because a lot of the time people say you know I just can't forgive what
say you know I just can't forgive what what happened to me was wrong yeah now I
what happened to me was wrong yeah now I accept what happened to someone could
accept what happened to someone could can be wrong yeah but it doesn't
can be wrong yeah but it doesn't necessarily follow that you can't
necessarily follow that you can't forgive yeah what's your take on
forgive yeah what's your take on forgiveness well you and I last night we
forgiveness well you and I last night we were talking about a woman that be both
were talking about a woman that be both mad and admire tremendously Edith Edgar
mad and admire tremendously Edith Edgar yeah and Edith as I told you was 16
yeah and Edith as I told you was 16 years old when I was one year old she
years old when I was one year old she lived in a town in what is not Southern
lived in a town in what is not Southern Slovakia then was Northern Hungary
Slovakia then was Northern Hungary called Kasha or kosit and her family
called Kasha or kosit and her family were taken to
were taken to owitz and
owitz and um my grandparents would have been
um my grandparents would have been either on the same shipment to ushitz or
either on the same shipment to ushitz or within the next day or
within the next day or so and her parents perished and she
so and her parents perished and she survived with her sister and she's
survived with her sister and she's become this psychotherapist she's
become this psychotherapist she's written a couple of wonderful books that
written a couple of wonderful books that I know you've met her and interviewed
I know you've met her and interviewed her and in one of her books she
her and in one of her books she describes going to the burkhoff in
describes going to the burkhoff in Bavarian Alps where Hitler used to have
Bavarian Alps where Hitler used to have his lair and he went there she went
his lair and he went there she went there to forgive
there to forgive Hitler and
Hitler and [Music]
[Music] um it doesn't mean that it was okay what
um it doesn't mean that it was okay what he did she did that to liberate herself
he did she did that to liberate herself she didn't she said I don't want to keep
she didn't she said I don't want to keep him in his prison in my heart for the
him in his prison in my heart for the rest of my life I've worked too hard to
rest of my life I've worked too hard to attain happiness and joy to let this
attain happiness and joy to let this tension and this constriction control me
tension and this constriction control me so the Forgiveness
so the Forgiveness wasn't making okay or or
wasn't making okay or or pardoning Hitler for
pardoning Hitler for his for all the evil that he perpetrated
his for all the evil that he perpetrated in the world but is her letting
in the world but is her letting go of the emotions around it and of the
go of the emotions around it and of the tension and the tightness around it so
tension and the tightness around it so forgiveness is not for the other person
forgiveness is not for the other person it's for yourself
it's for yourself now when I work with
now when I work with forgiveness I don't advise people to
forgiveness I don't advise people to forgive in fact as a matter of
fact I do the opposite I say to people before you forgive allow yourself
people before you forgive allow yourself to feel the full anger that's in you let
to feel the full anger that's in you let you let yourself fully experience the
you let yourself fully experience the anger that's there because once you
anger that's there because once you do it'll dissipate you let go of it so
do it'll dissipate you let go of it so don't do it in order to forgive do it in
don't do it in order to forgive do it in order to liberate yourself
order to liberate yourself now let's say I was abused as a
now let's say I was abused as a child but let's say I find myself fully
child but let's say I find myself fully liberated present oriented in contact
liberated present oriented in contact with
with myself human being then what does that
myself human being then what does that mean it means nothing was taken away
mean it means nothing was taken away from me it means that whatever happened
from me it means that whatever happened caused me a lot of pain over the years
caused me a lot of pain over the years but it didn't limit my capacity I wasn't
but it didn't limit my capacity I wasn't robbed of anything so what's there to
robbed of anything so what's there to forgive so uh yeah and and and you can
forgive so uh yeah and and and you can also ask
also ask yourself or anybody when you haven't
yourself or anybody when you haven't forgiven what's in your heart what's in
forgiven what's in your heart what's in your body do you like that state that
your body do you like that state that you're
you're in uh the tension do you like that is
in uh the tension do you like that is that how you want to be do you think
that how you want to be do you think that's really helping you so I don't go
that's really helping you so I don't go my way to teach now I know that in a lot
my way to teach now I know that in a lot of spiritual practices there are
of spiritual practices there are forgiveness practices and I know in
forgiveness practices and I know in Buddhist practice and lot of spiritual
Buddhist practice and lot of spiritual practices there forgiveness meditations
practices there forgiveness meditations and prayers my mind doesn't go there but
and prayers my mind doesn't go there but my mind does say I I always have to
my mind does say I I always have to experience all the rage all the hatred
experience all the rage all the hatred all the anger that's in you and be with
all the anger that's in you and be with it and see what happens to it yeah and
it and see what happens to it yeah and what happens to it once you pay
what happens to it once you pay attention to it it actually
attention to it it actually dissipates and so when Edith goes to the
dissipates and so when Edith goes to the burov to forgive Hitler she's just
burov to forgive Hitler she's just saying I don't want to hold on to this
saying I don't want to hold on to this stuff anymore it's not okay what you did
stuff anymore it's not okay what you did but I don't want to hold on to this
but I don't want to hold on to this stuff anymore yeah it's it's fascinating
stuff anymore yeah it's it's fascinating I think
I think curiosity
curiosity is is often a very helpful Pathway to
is is often a very helpful Pathway to forgiveness because if you get curious
forgiveness because if you get curious about that other person to why did they
about that other person to why did they act that way mhm I'm not talking about
act that way mhm I'm not talking about Hitler here I'm talking about yeah
Hitler here I'm talking about yeah anyone but even with Hitler yeah what
anyone but even with Hitler yeah what what were the conditions in that
what were the conditions in that person's life that led to that if I was
person's life that led to that if I was that person I'd be behaving in exactly
that person I'd be behaving in exactly the same way because I would have had
the same way because I would have had their parents and their childhood
their parents and their childhood experiences and they're bullying etc etc
experiences and they're bullying etc etc exactly once you look at the world
exactly once you look at the world through that
through that lens your initial approach becomes
lens your initial approach becomes compassion forgiveness comes as a
compassion forgiveness comes as a side effects of getting curious that's
side effects of getting curious that's totally right and there's an expression
totally right and there's an expression that you may be familiar with which goes
that you may be familiar with which goes to understand is to forgive yeah and uh
to understand is to forgive yeah and uh it begins with curiosity yeah so I and I
it begins with curiosity yeah so I and I think that that curiosity is the
think that that curiosity is the essential quality that actually leads to
essential quality that actually leads to compassion in the end now compassion
compassion in the end now compassion doesn't mean tolerance of bad behavior
doesn't mean tolerance of bad behavior no it doesn't mean validating or
no it doesn't mean validating or justifying crimes against um nature
justifying crimes against um nature crimes against other human beings but it
crimes against other human beings but it takes away that quality of tension where
takes away that quality of tension where you make yourself Superior to reality
you make yourself Superior to reality and you may and you put yourself in a
and you may and you put yourself in a position to judge reality you know and
position to judge reality you know and I'm above it and I'm in a position to
I'm above it and I'm in a position to judge that's not a comfortable I mean
judge that's not a comfortable I mean actually it is comfortable for a lot of
actually it is comfortable for a lot of people to be there but it's a way of not
people to be there but it's a way of not dealing with their own stuff so I do
dealing with their own stuff so I do think that curiosity is the key just to
think that curiosity is the key just to wrap this conversation up Gabel we've
wrap this conversation up Gabel we've been talking a lot about these regrets
been talking a lot about these regrets the regrets of dying yeah
the regrets of dying yeah and the final question I want to put to
and the final question I want to put to you
you is about the word
is about the word regret I have been playing with the idea
regret I have been playing with the idea over the last 12 months or so that
over the last 12 months or so that regret is actually a form of
regret is actually a form of perfectionism so I actually now very
perfectionism so I actually now very much subscribe to the philosophy of no
much subscribe to the philosophy of no regrets but not in the not in the kind
regrets but not in the not in the kind of derogatory way you I'm going to live
of derogatory way you I'm going to live my life my way it doesn't matter who
my life my way it doesn't matter who comes to my way
comes to my way no with this really compassionate
no with this really compassionate understanding that I've always done the
understanding that I've always done the best that I can yeah based upon where I
best that I can yeah based upon where I was in life at that time yeah so even
was in life at that time yeah so even the things that I look back on and go
the things that I look back on and go actually you know what if I was in that
actually you know what if I was in that situation again today I would act
situation again today I would act differently I don't see them as regrets
differently I don't see them as regrets I see them as situations that happen
I see them as situations that happen that have taught me something which is
that have taught me something which is allowing me to be a better version of
allowing me to be a better version of myself today exactly so in my life today
myself today exactly so in my life today there's there is no room for regret
there's there is no room for regret anymore and I guess I would love to know
anymore and I guess I would love to know you know right at the end here what's
you know right at the end here what's your perspective on the word regret
your perspective on the word regret um I think um chronic regret is
um I think um chronic regret is debilitating um it's a lack of self
debilitating um it's a lack of self forgiveness it's um also kind of egotism
forgiveness it's um also kind of egotism of that that that that that somehow that
of that that that that that somehow that important um it's quite something to
important um it's quite something to recognize I do recognize
recognize I do recognize that some of the way I parented my kids
that some of the way I parented my kids the way I showed up I've often talked
the way I showed up I've often talked about this in your program too wasn't
about this in your program too wasn't the best for them but it was the best I
the best for them but it was the best I could do at the time so it's not the
could do at the time so it's not the question of justifying but it's also not
question of justifying but it's also not dwelling on the past regret is to dwell
dwelling on the past regret is to dwell on the past and what's the point it's
on the past and what's the point it's quite something to
quite something to recognize that I did things that had I
recognize that I did things that had I known differently I would not have done
known differently I would not have done the same way that's just
the same way that's just learning um regret is an emotional state
learning um regret is an emotional state of that values the past more than the
of that values the past more than the present and it um accuses
present and it um accuses yourself
yourself [Music]
[Music] of doing things for which you had no
of doing things for which you had no consciousness to do otherwise so that's
consciousness to do otherwise so that's where I stand with the greate yeah K
where I stand with the greate yeah K well you know what a big fan I am of
well you know what a big fan I am of your work um it's just incredible to see
your work um it's just incredible to see the
the impact you're having on so many people
impact you're having on so many people around the world I'm very lucky to
around the world I'm very lucky to consider you a friend these days it's
consider you a friend these days it's been great to get to know you over the
been great to get to know you over the last few years
last few years um for someone who has heard us speak
um for someone who has heard us speak today and something connected with them
today and something connected with them something you said spoke to them and
something you said spoke to them and they thought wow yeah you know what I'm
they thought wow yeah you know what I'm carrying around old stuff with me
carrying around old stuff with me today I don't express my emotions I'm
today I don't express my emotions I'm not living a life that is true to me
not living a life that is true to me yeah what are some of your final words
yeah what are some of your final words for them well it's the word that you
for them well it's the word that you used
used curiosity
curiosity so not why am I living this way but hm
so not why am I living this way but hm why am I living this way you know what
why am I living this way you know what happened to me what am I carrying here
happened to me what am I carrying here so uh the key phrase is precisely the
so uh the key phrase is precisely the one that you introduced the necessity to
one that you introduced the necessity to be curious yeah um in a compassionate
be curious yeah um in a compassionate way so you you don't do an interrogation
way so you you don't do an interrogation of yourself like you're um Prosecuting
of yourself like you're um Prosecuting detective of why did you or why did you
detective of why did you or why did you not but
not but compassionately why did you not yeah why
compassionately why did you not yeah why did you and if you ask these questions
did you and if you ask these questions compassionately um and with curiosity
compassionately um and with curiosity the answers will emerge as will the
the answers will emerge as will the capacity for you make yourself for you
capacity for you make yourself for you to make different choices As you move
to make different choices As you move forward so where there wasn't Choice
forward so where there wasn't Choice before cuz you were compelled hel
before cuz you were compelled hel or or or driven now you can have some
or or or driven now you can have some Freedom if you're willing to be curious
Freedom if you're willing to be curious so curiosity is the word yeah gab all
so curiosity is the word yeah gab all your books are fantastic if someone is
your books are fantastic if someone is at the start of their gab M Journey yeah
at the start of their gab M Journey yeah which book would you direct them towards
which book would you direct them towards well you know um that depends on what
well you know um that depends on what they're dealing with you know I mean if
they're dealing with you know I mean if they're interested in addiction
they're interested in addiction specifically they should read my book on
specifically they should read my book on addiction or parenting they should read
addiction or parenting they should read hold on to your kids but if they want to
hold on to your kids but if they want to get the overall picture of the package
get the overall picture of the package you know it's it's the certainly the
you know it's it's the certainly the most recent the myth of normal in which
most recent the myth of normal in which I combine pretty much everything I knew
I combine pretty much everything I knew at the time that I wrote it and I
at the time that I wrote it and I already was only published a year and a
already was only published a year and a half ago it's been published now in 40
half ago it's been published now in 40 countries and 38 languages it's been a
countries and 38 languages it's been a best seller in a number of countries
best seller in a number of countries that's the one I would start with um but
that's the one I would start with um but if you're interested in specific topics
if you're interested in specific topics then seek out the like ADHD you should
then seek out the like ADHD you should read scattered you should I would invite
read scattered you should I would invite you to read scattered Minds you know uh
you to read scattered Minds you know uh so it just depends what you're dealing
so it just depends what you're dealing with but if you want an overall
with but if you want an overall immersion in what I have to say it's the
immersion in what I have to say it's the myth of normal that's what which what I
myth of normal that's what which what I would say the myth of normal over 1
would say the myth of normal over 1 million copies sold it says on this one
million copies sold it says on this one it's been a Smash Hit around the world
it's been a Smash Hit around the world it's a great book Gabel thanks for
it's a great book Gabel thanks for coming back on the show thank you I hope
coming back on the show thank you I hope to do it again if you enjoyed that
to do it again if you enjoyed that conversation I think you are really
conversation I think you are really going to enjoy this one about the top
going to enjoy this one about the top five regrets of the dying and what we
five regrets of the dying and what we can learn from them I spent eight years
can learn from them I spent eight years looking after dying people and the most
looking after dying people and the most common regret during those eight years
common regret during those eight years was I wish I'd lived a life true to
was I wish I'd lived a life true to myself not the life that other people
myself not the life that other people expected of me
Click on any text or timestamp to jump to that moment in the video
Share:
Most transcripts ready in under 5 seconds
One-Click Copy125+ LanguagesSearch ContentJump to Timestamps
Paste YouTube URL
Enter any YouTube video link to get the full transcript
Transcript Extraction Form
Most transcripts ready in under 5 seconds
Get Our Chrome Extension
Get transcripts instantly without leaving YouTube. Install our Chrome extension for one-click access to any video's transcript directly on the watch page.
