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Parent and Child Estrangement | Dr. Joshua Coleman
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welcome to where parents talk my name is
Leanne castellino Our Guest today is a
clinical psychologist speaker and
thought leader in the area of parent and
grandparent estrangement Dr Joshua
Coleman is also an author his latest
book is called rules of estrangement why
adult children cut ties and how to heal
the conflict Dr Coleman is also a father
of three and he joins us today from the
San Francisco Bay Area thank you so much
for taking the time yeah thanks for
having me it's a pleasure to be here Dr
Coleman how would you go about
describing the current landscape where
are we when it comes to children and
adult children being estranged from their
their
parents well from my perspective um I
think it's a kind of Silent epidemic you
know in there was a study recently done
that showed that one out of four fathers
is aranged from an adult child they're
22% even more like to be aranged from a
daughter that same study found 6% of
mothers are aranged from a child but
other Studies have put it closer to 10
to 15% which is where I would put it so
a lot of parents are being estranged
today and they're also being estranged
for reasons that weren't uh weren't
really in existence in the past so
certainly weren't common political
differences particularly uh in the
United States um where whereas um the GR
the glue that kept families together
through Millennia honor thy mother and
thy father respect thy Elders uh families
families
forever that's been largely replaced by
much more
identitarian perspective if a
relationship doesn't feel good to me
then not only can I cut that person off
I should cut that that person off uh
protection of mental health has become a
big priority so there's a lot of adult
children who are cutting off parents
certainly for reasons of abuse and and
neglect um but also for reason that are
much more psychological much more subtle
much more political and that really is
causing a lot of uh disruption in the
families when you look at that landscape
because you've just outlined so many
different contributing factors and you
know societal pressures Etc contributing
to this issue like what concerns you
most when you look at that
broadly well what concerns me most is
that you know I'm often interviewed and
people say well you know it point should
you cut off a family member and I'm
always okay answering that question but
what people don't realize is that
arangement is a cataclysmic event in a
family it's not dietic it's not triotic
it affects the whole family system it's
typical that if an adult child cuts off
a parent they also deny access to the
grandchildren even if the grandparents
were reasonably good grandparents it can
divide siblings against sibling one
sibling might Ally with the parent the
other sibling might Ally with the with
the estranged child it may if not
breakup marriages it often strains
marriages particularly because of the
different ways that in heterosexual
marriages men and women handle conflict
and stress um and you know who's willing
to make amends which is a big part of my
my recommendation to parents and who's
not um so it's a cataclysmic event in a
family and you know in the United States
and I think in Western Societies in
general we're becoming Much More
atomized Much More individualistic in
the US we have a huge problems with
social isolation with loneliness with
Rising rates of mental illness and I
think a big part of that is kind of the
destruction of uh family as a source of
identity and comfort and
care so when you look at that whole
picture like what are we supposed to
take away from it because on one level
so much has changed you know what are
your personal value systems what was
your communication and your family
relationship like in the first place
and then you add all these other
elements like where is somebody supposed
to start if they actually feel that they
want to repair uh and want to address the
the
estrangement yeah I mean you know most
of the estrangements that happen these
days are from the adult child to the
parent probably in earlier Generations
it might have been the parent estranging
the the adult child because they didn't
like who the person was marrying or
their gender identity or their sexuality
or their career Choice um but these days
it's much more the adult child and from
that perspective it's typically
incumbent on the parent to do most of
the initiating of the reconciliation
because the adult child from their
perspective it's working you know they
feel they might feel happier they might
feel less stressed out life might feel
simpler they don't have to have the
conflict with the parents that they had
so but for the parent there's no upside
it's all it's all pain it's all sadness
regret guilt remorse anger fear of what
kind of future they going to have
without their children or grandchildren
so from that perspective it's typically
incumbent on parents to make the first
move and what I always tell parents to
do is to try to start by writing a
letter of amends now some parents are
completely cut off from their adult
children they are they've been they're
not cut off from social media they're
blocked on cell phone they have no
access to them in any way they' moved
and not giving them an address and in
those situations parents are really at a
loss but many parents still have a way
to contact their children and even if
they've been directed to go no contact
which is the common way that it's it's
explained today or characterized today I
still encourage parents to begin by
writing a letter that starts with
something like I know you wouldn't do
this unless you felt like it was the
healthiest thing for you to do now
that's what it feels like to the adult
child to the parent it might not feel
that way at all it may feel the in fact
the opposite but the parent has to get
psychologically on the same page as the
adult child and they also have to
recognize this fun Al uh shift in values
that today relationships between parents
and adult children have to be more
egalitarian they have to be more
psychological they have to involve
communication and often that
communication happens with the parent
being open to hearing the ways that they
fail their child they hurt their child
they neglected them they traumatized
them and for parents that's a big ask
but for those parents who can actually
do that work not all certainly but for
many who can do that work they can find
a much more receptive audio in their
adult child on the adult child's end you
know my my wish is that for the adult
child that they could see the parent in
a more sort of three-dimensional way
that that even when parents behave
terribly they're typically doing the
best that they can do given their own
childhood traumas or when they grew up
or who they had to partner or their
socioeconomic level or all the other
things that affect parenting and at
least be open to repair from the parent
and to accept that that the kind of
mistakes that the parent made however
hurtful weren't necessarily intentional
and particularly if the parents willing
to work on themselves and be in therapy
or the like to give that parent a chance
to to repair and to
heal you know it's interesting as I hear
you lay out that description one thing
that strikes me is that you know none of
that is possible that is to say finding
a solution to the estrangement if there
isn't a degree of awareness on the part
of both parties right and when you throw in
in
generational differences and all the
different things you outlined that could
be factors that you outlined initially
it becomes really complicated and in
many cases one side or the other may not
have the capacity for that awareness so
in terms of stumbling blocks how does
one address it if that is the issue no I
think that's really well said and when I
do family therapy with parents and adult
children um yeah best case scenario both
are willing to be self-reflective to
show empathy to communicate well uh to
to be psychological to um look at the
other in a kind of more
three-dimensional way but you're right
not everybody's able to do it sometimes
the parent isn't able to do it and they
just can't take my direction as much as
I kind of sit on them and compel them to
do it and I warn parents before I get on
the call with them look if if I see you
starting to sound critical or making
your child child feel guilty or being
defensive I'm going to going to correct
you um and let you know that you're
going down the wrong path and this is
why your child doesn't want a
relationship with you and then for the
adult child I encourage them to
communicate their feelings in a calm
constructive non-blaming non-critical
non-name calling way but you're right um
not everybody's able to to do that and
that does pose challenges typically the
person who wants the relationship more
which is more typically the parent has
to do more of the work and that's why so
much my methodology is oriented towards
helping the parent uh because they're
typically the ones who in much more pain
about the loss of the the relationship
um but we all have to sort of take
people where they are whether they're
our family or our friends or co-workers
and sort of work based on our own
Awareness on on what's going to make
that create the conditions where they're
going to feel the most compelled to
communicate in a way that's in line with
our our hopes and typically that's
communicating in a way that's empathic
it's not not critical not negative
doesn't invoke defensiveness than the
other person those are typically kind of
the key principles that promotes good
communication Dr Coleman what inspired
you or LED you or motivated you to
writing rules of estrangement sure well
I my first book um I wrote on this topic
was when parents hurt and I wrote that
in 2007 and I wrote that because I had
experienced an estrangement from my own
daughter in her 20s I was married and
divorced in my 20s and have an adult
daughter I'm very close to and felt
close doing much of her younger years
but but there were ways when I got
remarried had twins from my current
marriage uh that she felt displaced that
she felt left out she felt hurt she
didn't feel
prioritized um and I didn't initially
respond very sensitively to that when
she wanted to talk to me about it so she
eventually withdrew and stopped
communicating with me and at the time it
was easily the most painful awful thing
I've ever been through and hoped to go
through ever again and there was very
little written to to help me the advice
that I got from friends and the
therapist I was saying were really
counterproductive well meaning but but
counterproductive um which only made her
feel less understood so it really wasn't
until I kind of changed my method to you
know just working on just hearing it
purely from her perspective not
defending myself taking responsibility
finding the colonel if not the bushel of
Truth in her complaints uh that really
things began to turn around and we
eventually reconciled and I thought well
gosh there's no guidance about that I
should write a book on that so I wrote
my first book when parents hurt and as a
result of that got a wide following of a
strange parents both in the US and in
other countries as a result of that
developed a webinar series that I've
been doing for the past 12 years for
strange parents and because I got so
many emails I started doing a free Q&A
uh every other Monday which I still
still do for strange parents because I
just cannot respond to all the emails
that I get and then based on that I
wrote my more recent book rules of
estrangement and that was based on a
study I did out of the Wisconsin
University of Wisconsin Survey Center of
1600 estranged parents and so I looked
at things that I didn't talk about as
much in the first book such as the role
the way that a son-in-law or a
daughter-in-law can produce estrangement
mental illness certainly in the parent
but also in the child the role of
divorce the effect on grandparents the
role of therapists as being agents of
estrangement um so that's kind of the
personal the way the personal began to
transform the professional in this case
really interesting um lived experience
there what would you say that you
learned uh through that Journey that you
yourself as a clinical psychologist
experienced as a father um that you wish
you'd known when you were going through
it earlier into that process perhaps
yeah I mean it's what what all the
strange parents say to me when they read
my book I wish I'd read your book sooner
and that is to to seek to understand and
be curious and be empathic and don't be
defensive even you're you're going to
feel misunderstood you're going to feel
hurt you're probably going to feel
unappreciated you're going to want to
talk your child out of their feelings
and all of that is counterproductive
it's just going to make your child feel
unseen unheard hurt like you don't
really care about them you're just
trying to prove yourself right I think
in general dads have a harder time with
this uh than mothers do which is pro
partly the reasons that that so many
dads are aranged versus uh mothers of
course divorce is also a big cause of
that um but I think that those are
really um those are really the key
elements and and really you know the
statement that I tell parents to make at
the beginning of their amends letters I
know you wouldn't do this unless you
felt like it was the healthiest thing
for you to do you know I've had a lot of
parents right back that their adult
children responded really well to that
because from the adult child's
perspective you know they don't really
want the parent to feel shamed or
criticized or humiliated or Bel belittle
in the way that the parent does but the
healthier one somebody who's really
troubled might but even underneath that
they really want the parent to
understand and do a better job in
reaching out to them and caring about
them so really helping the parent to uh
I mean I learned that being defensive
doesn't help trying to persuade my
daughter didn't help reminding her of
all the ways I was a good parent uh
didn't help trying to prove her wrong
all those things just make the other
person feel alienated and those are sort
of general principles that are true also
you know in marriage other family
relationships the more that we can just
empathize shut the hell up try to be
empathic try to take responsibility try
to find the Colonel if not the bushel of
truth and the person's uh complaints
about us uh the better we do but I think
that one of the reasons and this wasn't
true for my daughter but but one of the
reasons so many parents struggle today
is that what gets defined as abuse
trauma harm and neglect is really
generationally different so uh and there
was a stud by Nick Hassam out of the
he's an Australian psychologist who
developed the notion of concept creep
and Hassam found that in the past three
or four decades there's been an enormous
expansion over what gets labeled as
harmful abusive neglectful traumatizing
Behavior so so many adult children are
writing their parents saying you
emotionally abused me you traumatized me
you harmed me the parents are going what
I gave you a childhood I would have
killed for you know which again is not
the right thing to say but but from the
adult child's perspective they've been
raging in an environment where this is
what's getting labeled and diagnosed as
abusive Behavior whereas for a parent
none of that was considered or most of
it wasn't considered abusive so that
also can be really challenging for
parents and there I can tell parents to
say well it's clear that I had blind
spots that I didn't know that that felt
abusive to you but I'm glad you're
letting me know I'm open to working on
this either with you or in therapy uh
talking more about it Etc anything that
sounds defensive or is defensive is
going to be counterproductive is the
biggest message I've
got you know it's interesting because of
of all the things that you've mentioned
there in terms of contributing factors
to being estranged from your parent you
know it strikes me that fear of uh an
individual or individuals in the family
or even guilt as a part of the
conversation that you know maybe that's
how the the parent approaches it are
things that can also affect whether that
relationship ship can be repaired or not
so my question then is are there
circumstances uh excluding abuse where
maybe there is no solution for the
estrangement well and by solution well I
mean I can think of certainly many cases
of that one is if the there's mental ill
severe mental illness in the parent and
they just can't help but continue to to
traumatize the child the mental illness
or addictions in the adult child I mean
that may remediate over time but um but
that can certainly be an enormous
obstacle um I commonly see that a
troubled son-in-law or daughter-in-law
uh can tell the adult child choose them
or me you can't have both and the cost
to that son or daughter uh of defying
their son the son-in-law or
daughter-in-law is so high that they
just say you know that they're not going
to choose the parent because they just
can't live with the stress of their
partner being so mad and angry at them
all the time uh I think therapists are
doing a lot of damage not all therapists
clearly uh but I think there's a lot of
untrained therapists who were assuming
that every problem with adulthood has an
arra has a traumatizing parent in the
past and so they are telling the the
adult child that it's better for them to
not be with a parent that they're
continuing going to continue to expose
themselves I sometimes see letters where
they you know they say well your parents
are narcissist and narcissist can't
change and the parent actually isn't a
narcissist so um I think situations are
very very difficult to change um divorce
isn't necessarily an impossible one to
change but in my own research 70% of the
parents who contacted me had a divorce
from the biological parent so there's a
lot of ways that divorce can make things
much harder to heal particularly with
fathers and daughters they're the
they're the most at risk of all the
diets Dr Coleman speaking of research I
wonder if you could take us through the
process that you undertook to write
rules of
estrangement I'm sure what was a
question what is the process that you
undertook to write your
book um well I did the study of 1600
parents and looked at various things
like um whether the parent was married
quality of them the marriage whether it
child had mental illness paren had
mental illness a whole bunch of
different factors so um the book was
largely though written by my clinical
experience and exposure to really
literally thousands of parents whether
it's through my webinar or my q&as or my
private practice and just kind of
assimilating the different content areas
that um would cause somebody to be a
strange kind of what do I see the most
what does the research show that kind of
thing do you expect to continue to see
an uptick in this space in terms of uh
you know ongoing growth in terms of
where we are as a society where
relationships are where Communications
within families is these days despite
having more Comm Communications methods
than ever in the history of the world is
this something that we're going to
continue to see potentially increase or
is the pendulum gonna swing the other
way again well it is a paradox as you
say that that on the one hand we've got
better Communications than ever and in
some ways you know on the one hand I
want to say worse family relationships
than ever but actually that's not that's
not that's a mischaracterization I mean
you know estrangement is on the rise and
it's also a significant factor but but
other research shows that it's not in
contradiction it's just a different
observation that the majority of parents
raising adult children today are
actually in a lot of contact with them
and the survey showed that the majority
of parents feel like they're closer to
their adult children than they felt to
their own parents at a similar age so
one ways to think about it is that the
kind of much more close
psychological uh parenting intensive
environment that we've been doing over
the past four or five decades has
largely produced positive relationships
uh between parents and adult children
well they're actually in much more
contact than they were in Prior
Generations but the downside to that is
that for some adult children they get
too much of the parents so you know a
certain percentage of a strange what's
actually happen because the adult child
doesn't know any other way to feel
separate from the parent you know and
cell phones exacerbate that also that
you know you can't sort of have that
organic evolution away from your parents
the way we could say in my generation
pre cell phones where you know I could
go for two weeks without talking to my
parents unless I wanted to make a
collect call back from San Francisco to
Dayton you know and it was just it was
easier to be out of touch without it
meaning something whereas now a parent
can send their child a text or an email
and in two days like you haven't
responded to my email or my text are you
mad at me you I just think that it makes
the environment much more crowded and so
on the positive yes if things are going
well it's great you can exchange
pictures of your grandchildren and talk
about things and send funny texts Etc uh
but if it's not going well then all that
becomes more fra and texts and emails or
can be grossly
misunderstood um and just the way that
this therapeutic narratives have really
become the dominant Narrative of our
culture also just puts more parents at
risk because adult children have kind of
they're just much better armed from
their therapy and the therapeutic
culture to challenge their parents with
their parenting and parents haven't yet
caught up with the right way to
communicate about all of that so I think
all of that really U matters in these
discussions when we talk about the word
estrangement and we think about it in
terms of timelines can you give us some
perspective in terms of what are we
looking at at at what point is a
relationship considered a strange is it
days months weeks
years yeah I mean I think that it's um
um I don't think if there's any
particular agreement about that um but I
think that you know typically
you know if somebody writes their parent
a no contact letter or say I want you
out of my life or it's not good for my
mental health to have you in my life
that parent should consider themselves
reasonably to be aranged now sometimes
parents are on the estrangement track
before they even know it and the adult
child is sending all kinds of warning
flares up saying look if you don't
change this Behavior you don't stop
criticizing my parenting or if you don't
take more responsibility for the ways
that I felt hurt by you as a child I'm
not going to want to have a relationship
with you I mean that's a pre
estrangement environment I always told
parents to take that very very seriously
because your kids's giving you an
opportunity to correct them uh but some
parents just don't see the gravity of it
or there have been messages that the
parents not seeing or the adult child's
really not communicating communicating
it until suddenly they're out of contact
the parents are very confused about it
the research I this is a study done out
of oh highest state by Ren Resnik who
found that 26% of dads are estranged
from from their parents she found that
the majority of arangements occur in the
20s um and she found that with mothers
roughly 80% resolve and closer to 70%
resolved uh by fathers average length of
time is between two to three years and
that's I mean that squares with what I
see in my clinical practice as
well Dr Coleman what would you like
readers of rules of estrangement to take
away from your
book um I think that there there are
methods to because most of the time it's
it's parents who are reading the book of
I've had a lot of adult children read it
and I've had a lot of them send it to
their parents as well so I think the
main message is a have compassion for
yourself for the mistakes that you made
as a parent but B have compassion for
your adult child that even if you felt
like you did a reasonably good job or
objectively did a good job that your
adult child may have a very different
perspective about what they needed or
wanted from you and the more that you
can Embrace that and take responsibility
and show empathy in compassion and not
be defensive the better the chances
there are for
reconciliation Dr Joshua Coleman
clinical psychologist author of rules of
estrangement really appreciate your time
and your perspective today thank you so
much yeah thanks for having me it was a pleasure
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