This content features a discussion with former Premier League referee Mark Clattenburg and 20 football fans debating various aspects of modern refereeing, primarily focusing on the implementation and impact of VAR, consistency in decision-making, and the perceived decline in refereeing standards.
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I want to give him what? Four back. They
don't want the referees. I would speak
to Ronaldo Messi like I would a
grassroots player. I was that nervous. I
was that nervous. Today I've got one
Premier League referee ready to go up
against 20 football fans.
>> Oh no.
>> Mark Latenburg was a Premier League,
Champions League, and international
referee for 13 years. And today he will
go up against 20 football fans in four
debates. fans will have to be first to
the chair in order to debate mark. And
if the majority feel like the person
debating isn't doing a good enough job,
they can raise their yellow card and I
will send them off. They'll then be
replaced by another fan until our 10
minutes is up and once we're done, we're
done. Where do I go with VR? I hate it.
>> What do we think then? Are you guys fans
of VR? If you are, sounds like you might
have a Yeah, you might.
>> For a referee to get a round of
applause, I'm I'm happy.
>> That is I'm happy. Okay then guys, if
anybody likes VR and wants to debate it,
please step forward. Three, two, one.
>> Okay. Brighton versus Mark Quattenburg.
Why do you like V? I just think it's a
people using it really. Um, it's a good
idea and you look at it at the World
Cup, you look at it in the Euros,
everywhere else but England, it's
totally sound. I I just something
doesn't add up there. The only thing is
you're right, but the problem you've got
is football is probably one of the only
sports where the decision is subjective.
So what you think's a penalty, the
referees don't and other people will
debate it. So that's where referee VR
falls down for me. I think VR should
only be used for factual decisions.
Offside ball out of play and any clear
infringement that starts outside and
ends up inside. They're the only ones
that are not subjective. But what you
think is a foul, I don't always believe
it is.
>> Yeah. But then it comes back to the
hamble rule for example just there there
has to be some clear rule that everyone
agrees to.
>> There is and
>> there is but nobody believes it. Nobody
>> the consistency is nowhere near where it
should be. There's no consistency whatsoever.
whatsoever.
>> Yeah. And what I what I dislike about
VAR V should I say is when a player
scores a goal he goes off and said I
want the passion back. I want a player
when he scores a goal to go and rip his
shirt off and go and celebrate in the
crowd. We've lost all of that wonderful
moment when to score. What would you
say? What would you say? what you would
want VR improved, how
>> just some consistency really with the
people. Um because again, you look at
all the other countries, you look at the
the competitions, Champions League,
Europe League, World Cup,
>> et officials in the world. You you've
got one or two English.
>> If this is the Premier League, then why
do we not have the very best?
>> Because the problem is you've got a lack
of numbers. When I was a referee in the
Premier League, there was 24 referees.
Now we've only got something like what
14 or 16. And now you're increasing that
to be VRs. So what they're doing is
they're bringing referees in from the
championship to act as VRs. And we all
know what VR does now. It runs the
football. The referee's got no power
anymore. The VR's got the power.
>> Yeah, for sure. But again, why going
back to why can't we pull these
officials from abroad? I know we got
that one Aussie bloke, but he's useless.
>> Any Jared Gilllet is useless.
>> He's upset Brayton many times.
>> He has. He has indeed. Yeah.
>> But yeah, why I don't get it. Why can we
not, you know, attract Premier League or
standard referees, you know?
>> Yeah. But I think what we need to do is
go back to basics and
>> Well done, Matt. Well done. My whistle
skills there. Yeah, I like that. Not too
bad. Too bad. Thank you. And the outfit. >> Yeah.
>> Yeah.
>> Yeah. Would you have worn this? >> No.
>> No.
>> No. Okay. Okay. Matt, you're off, my
friend. We need another one. Uh, in
three, two, one to debate the good of
the AR. Go.
>> Oh, wow.
>> Okay. L. Luca,
>> what shirt? What shirt is this? By the way,
way,
>> so Mark, would you say you would abolish
it right now then? V. If you have the option,
option,
>> I wouldn't abolish it.
>> You wouldn't abolish it. Okay.
>> I would put it back to basics and I
would we all have go technology which
works perfect except that one game
straight after co which was Aston Villa
Sheffield United where there was a
glitch in the system
>> but in reality it does work for factual
decisions. The issue is one week one
team gets punished for a foul inside the
box and the week after nothing happens.
You saw headbutts
>> and your forearm smashes in people's
faces. One week the AR sends the referee
to the onfield monitor. The week after
it doesn't happen and I feel that
there's so many inconsistencies. So if
you only have it for ball out of play
>> incorrect uh >> decision
>> decision
>> decision wait no I'm talking about
factual decisions off sides. Then that's
easy to debate. It's factual. Even if
we've got one mm offside, it's offside.
>> So you're talking what about red cards.
>> You would leave that.
>> We let the referee deal with it.
>> Like when I was a referee in the Premier
League all them years ago,
>> we I might have made a mistake once in a
every handful of games, but I had the
control. I made sure I was the referee.
I didn't want to make a mistake. I
didn't have any help. I believe now the
referees are just not making decisions
and then they're relying on the V who
sometimes doesn't even give a decision.
So therefore, that's where the
inconsistencies lie and that's where
everybody's frustrated with. You're
frustrated. I'm frustrated week in week
out with the inconsistencies where you
wouldn't have inconsistency if you
stripped it back to basics.
>> I get what you're saying, but also when
it comes to like red car decisions, for
example, I'm sure obviously you refereed
so so many games like the speed is like
100 miles per hour. Sometimes you make a
mistake. Sometimes you need almost CCTV
to be able to like justify either the
decision that you gave the red card or
re-evaluate and make the correct
decision if you didn't give the red
card. So do not think it can also be
useful in those situations where say you
didn't send the player off but in
reality you look back on it could have
been a red card then you can go check
the monitor see actually I did make a mistake
mistake
>> give the correct decision. The games the
game's moved on so many so much. We had
c maybe a handful of cameras, maybe 10
20 cameras. Now we got 40 cameras.
Angles almost
>> angles kill the referees, but also they
use slow motion. They've got ultra HD.
So it's they're shown the most perfect
thing and that's not reality. That's not
a reality for a referee. What they see
out there to eyes isn't always what you see.
see. >> Yeah.
>> Yeah.
>> On on the on the camera. And I think now
the other the other side of what the
frustration is referees were allowed to
make mistakes. Now they're not because
they think the system is absolutely
perfect. It's not. And I don't like when
you see challenges. Players don't go to
hurt each other anymore. They used to
probably there was one or two players
you could easily name over the years
that went in with tackles with the
studs. Now you don't see it. You see
genuine tackles for the ball just late
and they don't go to really injure the
player. But there's a criteria put in
place and the referees try and read that
criteria but that's where the
inconsistency lies. One week they say
well there's not enough speed. The next
week they say well there is enough speed
but we get frustrated.
>> Also at the same time there's also you
said there's a lot of angles in football
when it comes to these sort of
decisions. Sometimes there's a lack of
angles. For example I'll give an
example. This isn't related to the
Premier League, but a couple season ago
in the SEA Juventus played Salan and we
had a goal chalked off when it was
deemed offside. But after the game,
there was another angle that came out
when the goal in reality was onside and
and the well, they just didn't have the
footage to show to show that. You've got
to be careful with off sides because I
guarantee over the last 20 years there's
been so many goals incorrectly given
because what you what your reality is
what you see what you see normally on a
on a on a on a match you think well
that's on that's on that's offside or
that's on side but when you actually
draw the lines and the perfect angles
you think that never looks it but it was
because the technology is that perfect
when it comes to offside our eyes on
because you've also got The camera is
probably what on the 18 18 yard line.
Offsides are mostly inside the penalty
area. So you get a distorted angle to
what you see. So what we've saw over the
years hasn't really happened. We used to
accept it on match of the day when it
was a tight offside. Oh, the assistant
will give the benefit of the doubt. You
can't have benefit of the doubt anymore
because of this factual decision.
>> I think that's important though
>> for me. I think offside is offside
>> like the ball over the line. You can't
have an argument and say you know what 1
millm should we go 5 cm to give the
benefit of the doubt the attacker. So
what we'll give 5 cmters over the goal
line when the balls cross the line to
suit who you know if it's offside it's
offside if at the end of the day it's
black and white offside is offside. Even
in the Champions League final you refer
that was offside for example thanks no
it's not your fault. No I'm not saying
it's your fault. God, that bloody assistant.
assistant.
>> But that obviously wasn't your job.
>> That wasn't that wasn't actually. It was
a line though. But I'm saying in general
that if V was implemented back then, for
example, that final could have been
completely different. Athletico might
have gone on to win it. So I'm thinking
in terms of like V in your original
statement, you said it was bad. I think
it's been misused in certain ways and I
understand your argument about certain
decisions and some things are black and
white, some things are more subjective,
which I completely understand. But I
think the overall statement that V is
completely bad, I think is a little bit
harsh. No, I never said complet as it is
at the moment in its current state it's bad.
bad. >> Okay.
>> Okay.
>> And it's I think it will can work.
Technology can work in sport.
>> But while we've got so many subjective
decision we saw it I think in rugby union
union
>> it's worked perfectly but we've got so
many factual decisions. There's nothing
really subjective. The only thing that
is subjective which I love when
everybody communicates together. The
referee and this the V communicate
together. You don't see that in
football. to go to a screen and 99.99999%
the referee's going to go with the the
>> Yeah. And that's what's bizarre because
the other thing that I dislike with VR
when you see the onfield review, the
VR's guiding the referee with only the
angles he wants to show. For me, they
should show it in real time, then show
different angles. And then if the
referee saw something on the field and
he didn't think the intensity was high,
he didn't think the player was going in.
Then he should stick with these stick
with his decisions. But I don't like V
when it comes to decisions where they're
trying to change the referee's mind and
you think that was never a hand ball.
That was never a penalty.
>> And again, week in week out, I saw one,
for example, Arsenal. Newcastle.
Newcastle. Arsenal. Sorry.
>> Yeah. The penalty not given to Newcastle
>> for me for Arsenal. And I'm a Newcastle
fan. And I think
>> one week Martin, the the goalkeeper um
Sanchez was sent off for Chelsea
>> against United. the week after the same
ruffling. Yeah, that you're never going
to get similar exactly the same
situation, but
>> but keep the same energy for
consistency. But every time I always
find the refereeing world, if they if
they've made a a really controversial call,
call,
>> they've always got to try and defend the
referees. But then
>> week in week out, we're all confused
>> and we shouldn't have any confusion. We
should be thinking, you know what, if
that's a penalty, most weeks it's going
to be given us a penalty. Yeah, you'll
have an odd mistake, but we're seeing
more and more mistakes.
>> Okay, just a couple of seconds left.
Look, well debated. That's 10 cars. Does
anybody want to quickly jump up and face
V? 3, two, 1.
>> Go ahead. Go ahead. Go ahead. We can be
quicker, guys. Come on. I want I want to
see. I want Mark to be judging wheat
sitting there, though.
>> Yeah, fair, fair, fair. Go ahead, mate.
We haven't got too long left.
>> Okay. I appreciate the point on V, but
do you not think the standard of
refereeing comes into it as well?
>> Yeah, but Of course it is. And that
comes to a lack of training development.
I think what your issue you've got is
when when the Premier League was first
formed. They got the best referees out
the Championship, the the football
league. So the football league was the
best teams came into the Premier League,
the best referees came into the Premier
League. And over the years, I remember
when I first got on the Premier League
in 2004, I was the 24th referee that had
all of the quality Paul, Barbad, all of
these top referees. All these quality
referees have left and they've never
been replaced.
>> That is 10 minutes done. Well done,
guys. Well done. Some really good
debating in that. You know what's mad is
I thought the uh foul for Yakarez going
through on Nick Pope wasn't a penalty.
>> And I'm a Jordian. I think it was.
>> Just before we move on to our next
debate, if you guys haven't done it
already, subscribe to the channel. Go
down there, press the big red button,
and subscribe. Should referees be banned
for poor performance? I believe that
referee shouldn't be banned if they make mistakes.
mistakes.
>> Okay, guys. Three, two, one.
>> Hello, Mark. >> Hello.
>> Hello. >> Welcome.
>> Welcome. >> Welcome.
>> Welcome.
>> Here we go.
>> Well, we've won the FA Cup, so I've
forgiven you for two.
>> Oh, no. Um, we're going to come back to
you later on. I'm telling you. Um, yes.
I mean, any line of work, even if we
just stick with football, when players
play badly, they are dropped. When
referees make bad decisions, I feel like
that's a massive thing for why the
standard in the Premier League is not
great because the the refs can make
mistakes, they can do badly, and they
just keep their jobs. They still play
the next game, still rest the next game.
I just think that
>> I think any let's take football is a
point. Most players, if a center forward
misses an opening goal, probably he'll
be playing the following week unless he
has three, four, five stinking
performances and doesn't score and
doesn't get a game or he'll be on the
bench. The problem everybody's like
fixed with refereeing is because we're
all passionate. We're all passionate
about teams. If you make an mistake in
an office and I was I was an estimating
manager many many years ago before
refereeing in electrical and mechanical
world and I made a mistake on one of me
estimates but I could put it right. Me
family didn't know about it. So I could
put it right without any issues but I
wasn't punished. I wasn't sacked, but
all of a sudden we want referees to be
punished and sacked because they make
one mistake or they make two mistakes,
make three mistakes.
>> I don't think it's sacked. I think
obviously that would just be
ridiculously extreme. But I think, you
know, and I know that refs do sometimes
get put down to championship, maybe
championship to league if they have bad performances.
performances.
>> They complain the referees.
>> But if anything, well, this is the
thing. But then you're almost punishing
the teams in the lower division. So the
ref wasn't good enough for the Premier
League, so we're going to give him to
the Championship. I just think I I don't
necessarily think they should be sacked.
I think the best thing the rest could do
to be honest and the best thing that
could happen for refereeing in the game
is that referees come out after the
games and have postmatch interviews.
>> I I just think that's such a good idea
and you can instantly take
accountability. You've made a mistake.
You can come out and say, "Yeah, I saw
it this way. I understand it was the
wrong decision." Instantly, I think that
alleviates 90% of kind of the abuse, the
pressure that the referees get after the game.
game.
>> I think if I'm not bothered about I
don't want to do it afterward. I've
tried it and it didn't work. I remember
doing an interview with Birmingham after
the something controversial happened
with Manchester United and the the the
journalist just ripped us to shreds. It
was like negative. Even if I said I'd
made a mistake, it was like you
shouldn't be admitting that you've made
a mistake. But I I get your point, but I
just I would prefer that when the
referees speak and they speak with a VR,
I would prefer that they do it in the
open like we see in rugby league, rugby
union. And if the you could hear in the
stadium and on the TV what the referee
and the VR were discussing then what's
your issue? And I think forget I don't
want to have every conversation
televised because if I'm speaking with a
captain and the captain's giving me what
for I want to give him what for back.
You don't really want to hear that and
that's what should stay on the field.
But when it comes to decisions and why I
made a decision. So if I have if I
haven't give a hand ball for example and
it's controversial, I'm not talking
about one where it's a half-hearted
appeal. I'm talking about one that's
really really debated. Why shouldn't the
referee just open his mic up 10 10 seconds?
seconds?
>> Who who has the power to do that though?
>> Well, we haven't got that power at the
moment till we move forward with because
IB and FIFA control at the moment what
referees and match officials can say and
what can be televised. At the moment
we're still at the very early stage
because at the mo at the point V with
the referee's communications was always
the worry is what were they going to say
how professional were going to be now
when I listen to them they're very
professional I think we're now at that
next stage to allow everybody to listen
what's being said and I think once you
listen to what's being said I think
we'll end up being less frustrated will
not agree with it but at least you'll
understand but I don't like at the
moment when they press the button
>> and they try and say I give a red card
because the player was given they're
just repeating they're just repeat
number six
>> I would rather be human I would rather
be human about and say look the the
player's arm was up he's used his elbow
and he's he had a clenched fist he's
used some power and therefore I believe
that this challenge deserves a red card.
So, it's a question of when Fab and FIFA
allow that to happen because I I think
that I genuinely think that the second
that happens, if not postmatch
interviews or just speaking about
decisions you've made, that's probably the
the
>> We leave them to pundits. I prefer
pundits to debate my performance. I
don't want to be allowing me to to to
open up what I've what I've done on the
field of play. At the end of the day, I
can't change my decision. But like going
back to what the original argument was,
everybody else in the walks of life can
change at their workplace mistakes. But
also what the hardest thing for referees
is, and that's people don't understand
it, our decisions are worldwide and very
subjective by everybody. Even if I know
I'm right, you still got people who
think I'm wrong because everybody's got
an opinion. But it doesn't affect your
family. You can make a mistake in your
employment and nobody knows. Your wife
doesn't know. Your children don't know.
When I made a mistake, the family knew
about it because it was in the papers.
It was on social media. It was
everything about it. But then do you not
think that if if you were not to be I
think punish is the wrong word but if
you were to kind of take a referee
that's made say you've made an awful
mistake Champions League final whatever
it is if you were then just not punish
but punish them with money but or or just
just
>> because not even that just have a base level
level
>> like a player a player can miss an open
goal and doesn't get so he's on 150,000
a week he don't and he he gets a goal
bonus he gets a goal bonus but he never
gets a a bonus deduction for missing
missing an open goal I think referees If
you they've got a bonus scheme in place
and it's based on performance. So if a
referee doesn't meet the criteria, he
doesn't get a bonus at the end of the
year and that affects you because at the
end of the day you go to work to earn
money and the more money you you earn,
the better the better things become. So
I always feel referees never want to
make mistakes. I just feel that the
group of referees at the moment in the
Premier League are weak are weaker.
They've got a lot of youth and they
don't understand the game.
>> So why don't we just go and get them?
Someone said it earlier, but why not go
and get them from other leagues? Oh.
>> Oh, it's there. Well done. Well debated,
guys. Well debated. Got a few more
minutes left to jump in
>> over whether referees should get banned
for wrong decisions. 3 2 1.
>> Okay. Welcome. Welcome.
>> You can have
>> Sorry about that. Sorry about that.
>> Slightly different topic.
>> Uh but referees facing bans. What do you
think my friend?
>> I don't I think ban is a bit too
extreme. But I do feel like, you know,
in the Premier League how ref players,
if they have five yellow cards, it leads
to then a suspension for one game. I
feel like when referees make bad
decisions and they have like the the
refereeing body that would then assess
and whatnot. If they have something
similar to that where there's like five
opportunities where you get your yellow
cards and then suspension there.
>> Good point.
>> I think that would make the refereeing a
bit better.
>> Yeah. because they know there's a bit
more jeopardy in
>> but how do we how do we define their
mistakes because what they've got in the
Premier League at the moment they've got
a they've got a board so a panel sits
every early part of the week normally a
Monday they sit and they debate all of
the refereeing decisions so there's a
ex- referee on and ex player ex quote
>> and I've saw I've saw them reports when
I was waiting for Nottingham Forest and
I didn't agree with some of the things
so what we probably as fans think are
mistakes the panel don't but I believe
for example Howard Webb came out
recently the head of refereeing came out
and criticized the V which was Andy Madley.
Madley.
>> Andy Madley hasn't been seen since. So
there is a punishment in place.
>> But also you've got to understand that
the point, for example, some fixtures
overlap. So you've got midweek fixtures
and a a Saturday fixtures or the weekend
fixtures. When the appointments are
done, they do two in one go. So the
referees know where they're going for
that week. But if they have a bad
performance on a weddings day, it's very
difficult to then remove them for the
week because then it shows the world
that you're punishing and you can't
punish everything. But what I don't like
at the moment is there seems to be a lot
of apologies from PG well to certain
clubs like Fulham
>> which Josh King.
>> Yeah, listen you can debate that and I
thought at the time I I thought it was
wrong. I thought it was wrong. I thought
honestly I thought it was wrong.
However, I can I can make an argument
why he was sent off because the foot
came down. It did stamp on him, but it
it had no speed. It didn't reach all the
criteria for a red card. So, for me, it
wasn't a red card, but for the match,
very subjective, but to apologize. But
then, for example, Gabrielle forearms uh
the new Volto off the ball and nothing happened.
happened.
>> And for this, this is where the
frustration lies. Where's the apology?
Where's the apology to Newcastle? But it
was to Fulham. It feels like you
shouldn't be apologizing. We're in a
we're in a a world where referees are
going to make mistakes, players make
mistakes, coaches make mistakes. The
problem we've got at this the society
now, when I was a referee, we were we
were allowed to make mistakes.
>> Now, the way society is, we can't make
mistakes. To be honest, I feel like
during your time as well, especially
when you were refereeing, there was
certain referees, I don't want to say
names, but
>> Mike De
where he it would seem he would make the
game about him, right? And there was
collective as fans from pretty much
probably every single team here, every
single fan sitting here would say that
there was certain games where Mike Dean
would make crazy decisions and it felt
like nothing happened to him at all and
he'll just be back. when he celebrated
for playing an advantage,
>> you know, like it's crazy. So that's why
that's why I think there should be a
sort of system that fans can actually
see like the yellow card system that
okay, this guy's made he's had an
absolute stinker here, yellow card here,
next game, yellow card here. And if
they're getting close to cards, then
>> but we've got
>> I'm sorry. I'm really sorry, guys. Well
done. Really good. Really, really good.
Are referees intimidated by certain
clubs? I don't believe referees are ever
intimidated by clubs, players, managers,
or spectators.
>> Three, two, one.
>> I thought they would all get up there.
>> Jacob, welcome my friend. >> Yeah.
>> Yeah.
>> Where do you stand on this?
>> Um, I think I don't think it's a
purposeful intimidation. I think there's
more of an unconscious bias in my
opinion. So, like for example, Burnley
play at Old Trafford against Manchester
United. If a referee makes a bad
decision, you've got maybe at a push
50,000 Burnley fans who will be upset by
that, be angry at it. Like we saw when
La Foster was that was the offside that
was very very subjective whether it was
actually offside.
>> Then if Manchester United the decision
go against them, you've got what you're
probably pushing a billion people who
are going to be sending this abuse at
this person like you're pushing about it.
it.
>> Yeah. And that's what I mean. So I feel
like I'm not necessarily saying that you
purposely go out and go right if this
50/50 decision I'm going to give it to
Manchester United. But more so
>> in the back of your mind that's always
going to be a thing.
I'm going to get abused. My family going
to get abused if I go against them.
>> Everybody has that same perception,
smaller clubs, big clubs.
>> But when you're referee, you referee
that you want to get everything right.
The issue you've got when a big team and
a little team play is that the little
team have less of the ball. So, it means
you're chasing you're going to foul
more. You're going to have physical
jewels more. You're going to have more
contacts. Man United are going to have
more off sides. They're going to have
more corners. It's just factual. When
the big sides normally play the smaller
sides in the Premier League, you have
that scenario. So, you're going to have
a lot of subjective calls that you'll
say, "Well, I don't believe it is. I
don't believe that's a foul. I don't
believe that's a foul." But you always
like, for example, uh, one of the things
when I was a referee, and that's why
players liked us, even though the media
hated us because they thought I was
arrogant. They thought I dressed too
well. I didn't have like dress too well.
Were they boring?
>> Very good
>> cuz referees referees used to be like
stereotyped. They had of a tie a certain
length. It was like ridiculous because
everybody thought referees had to be
boring. But I treat players exactly the
same. I would speak to Ronaldo Messi
like I would a grassroots player because
that's the respect they deserve. They're
a football player. I wouldn't never
pamper to a bigname player and that's why
why
>> No. Yeah. Yeah.
>> Teams used to teams used to think the
smaller teams when I used to referee
them used to think that they had
defenders. I didn't care when I was a
referee and that's why probably I got
more criticism and people hated us more
because I wasn't frightened to make the
big call. I remember going at Man United
via Liverpool some years ago and I
whistled three penalties at Old Trafford
to Liverpool if that was biased towards
Old Trafford. That never happened. It
never happened.
>> Would you ever see that for Would you
ever see that for like Burnley going Old
Trafford? We would
It wouldn't matter if I saw them calls.
If I saw them calls, I don't give it. I
don't care if it was Man United,
Liverpool, Manchester City, or Tottenham
or what what Chelsea, whatever you do. I
made the calls and I wanted to get it
right. I wanted to walk away from that
stadium and go home and watch it back
and think, "Wow, I got that one right."
And I remember going to a match at West
Brom, me, one of me last games in charge
when I before I left to Saudi, West Brom
against Bournemouth. And I made three
huge calls against West Brom. At West
Brom, right? Forget the big team, little
team. West Brom were bigger than
Bournemouth at the time, probably
position-wise. Tony Pulis was the coach.
The crowd were at us. The coaches was at
us. The players were at us saying I'd
got all of the decisions wrong. I went
back home, watched them. I got all three
right. The following week I was fourth
official at West Brom. All of them
apologized because they'd realized what
they'd seen on the pitch was different
to what the reality.
>> But I wasn't that you're your one
referee. Like you said, there's so many
referees and I feel like especially when
you're looking at them ones that do come
up from the championship, do you not
think there is that fear factor when you
do go to the anfield and like you just
said that was West Brom with all due
respect to West Brom going to West Brom
and going to Old Trafford or Liverpool.
>> But I didn't care if it was you and
that's what I mean. That's you don't
think referees go into it going, "Yeah,
I I I need to be a little bit more
biased this But I feel naturally as a
human and you do it in everything if
there's more
>> I think there's less pressure if if I'm
refereeing the Manchester derby for
example there's less pressure if I'm
refereeing Burnley v Bournemouth 100%
why because
>> the the exposure even on match of the
day you'll be last on match of the day
no disrespect no one will care if you if
you make six wrong decisions no one's
going to talk about
>> they're only going to show 20 20 seconds
of highlights but I know they're going
to debate everything I do in the big
derby there is pressures I used to love
where I didn't have all the pressures
Sometimes I loved refereeing Burnley.
Why? Because I could enjoy it more.
Because when you're refereeing the big
games, I didn't enjoy them. I never I
never enjoyed the Champions League
final. I never enjoyed the Euro final
because the pressure is so much. I
remember walking out the Champions
League final and all I cared about,
right, wasn't the game, the 90 minutes.
I was worried about dropping the ball
off the plinth. I was that nervous. I
was that nervous. But do you not think
that does play a part in a lot of
referees game that will be going through
the head and there's some people who
maybe aren't as experienced as you've
been or and things like that come up
from like league one the championship
and know bounce through the leagues who
are then sat there going I'm away
Anfield Liverpool have been a maybe it's
a 50-50 game against a bulmouth or
something like that seno goes down it
boxes in the 89th minute Liverpool fans
are screaming at him is not a more I
feel for me in the back of your head you
are going to be thinking
>> but this is the problem with a fast track
track fast
fast
I had four years in the championship
ship before I went into the Premier
League at 25. I was 29 when I got in the
Premier League, but I'd refereeed
>> big games in the Championship. Like for
example, our big game in the
Championships was Ipsswitch Norwich. >> Yeah.
>> Yeah.
>> Which was huge. >> Yeah.
>> Yeah.
>> You know, when you refereed them games,
Wolves West Brom, another big game in
the Championship. So when they were
playing in the Championship, I was
ready. The problem you've got now, these
young referees aren't ready. And
probably some of them feel
>> probably not scared, but they're
slightly apprehensive when they go to
Old Trafford because it's their first. I
remember going to Old Trafford for the
first time.
>> Yeah. Yeah.
>> And you know what happened?
>> Okay. Well done, Jacob. You're off. We
off. Got a couple more minutes left.
Brilliantly debated. Anybody else want
to jump into the seat and debate about
referees being intimidated?
>> Chelsea, figure out. I was intimidated
when I got to bloody suspended.
>> Go ahead, my friend.
>> So, something that kept coming up there
was Old Traffords and I just wanted to
talk about Fergie. Obviously used an
example of when you you went to Old
Trafford, there was the three penalties
given. Was that maybe a case of that was
the year after he just left? So it was a
bit of
>> No, there was Vie was it was so difficult,
difficult,
>> wasn't that the I thought
>> because what he used to do, right? And
and I used to because I I analyze
football a lot. I and I could see a
tactic happening. So Vergie would send a
player in sometimes Gary Neville, Rio
Ferdinand, Nikki Buts, Paul Schold,
whatever it was, they would send one
player in and they would like that's a
wrong decision, that's another wrong
decision. And then he would send another
play in, a different player. So there it
was systematically bang. And it wasn't
about that decision cuz he knew no
manager in the world thinks that they're
going to ever change the referee's mind
because once the decision's made, the
decisions made. It was about the next
one and the next one. And they were
using an intimidating tactic to try and
get under your skin to get the next
decision that 1% that they thought they
could get into your head. And I remember
saying to Rio Ferdan once I said Rio, go
and tell your boss to stop [ __ ] doing
it. He said, "No, you go and tell them
because it was like they were scared of
him as well." You know,
>> it's got to be a factor for some other
referees. I'm not saying just yourself,
but as in
>> Ferguson, he got that worse. He wasn't
the worst. Really?
>> Yeah. Mourinho was Mourinho was an
>> innocent man.
That's an innocent man. Right.
>> An innocent man at that cause when he's
banned from the dressing room. comes in
in the uh the kit, you know, and but
they all did it. They all wanted that.
And I watch teams now and it's all about
that extra percent. You know, they they
analyze referees now a lot. The the
tactics of the referee, what how many
yellow cards he gives, what's his trait
of his yellow cards, is it descent or is
he punished tackles more? There's so
much data goes into clubs now than
they've ever been. When I first was on
the Premier League, that wouldn't have
happened. Would have just turned up. Oh,
it's Mark Clattenburg. Oh, he lets a
game flow. You can speak to them blah
blah blah. Now, the data that goes in
week in week out is incredible because
they're analyzing every detail and they
want to win. And I remember I had this
conversation before managers try and
intimidate intimidate you at the team
sheets. They just stare at you because
they think that I'm going to be scared.
>> You said that about clock was it?
>> Yeah, because he he just stared at us at
a team exchange and he never brought the
team with Ferguson though that that I I
get it as well though from a
subconscious level. if you're a referee,
you're going to want to work on the
biggest stage. And like he'd ban
journalists, etc. And it did feel like
in those early in those years, 2000s, I
feel like every fan base off maybe Alice
here would say that United got some some
really dodgy stuff. I think you
mentioned the Roy Carol one. It's like
>> that wasn't my fault in all.
>> No, that's the that's the linesman on
that one. But I kind of feel like the
penny would usually fall that side more
so than any other. But that might even been
been
>> with Chelse Chelsea. Look at what
Chelsea did.
>> We never got anything though.
>> But look what Chelsea did to me with
over Mckel. You know that you know that
situation that that situation there was intimidation.
intimidation.
>> You know they were trying to intimidate
to say
>> but that was on the back of I think was
it Torres was sent off when he got
fouled by Johnny Evans going through on
goal. He should have been sent off
through that was one of me that was one
of me regrets but in the real time I
thought he'd uh he'd got he but he got a
touch a little touch on his toenail and
he went down. probably a clever referee
and probably one that was seen things a
bit more different would have just waved
play on and not give a free kick and
wouldn't have had a a second yellow
card. Hindsight's a great thing, but to
be intimidated what that club did tried
to intimidate me and the rest of the
referees by making an accusation that
wasn't true and that's intimidation.
Forget what Vergie did. Very was trying
to intimidate like referees probably to
get the next decision. What Chelsea were
doing was saying, "We'll take the
referees on by trying to, you know,
trying to say one of the referees had
been racially abused a player." I'd
never I wouldn't never racially abuse a
player. I might swear at a player. I
might have said something in the heat of
the battle, but I would never use a
racial comment.
>> Yeah. Yeah. I'm not sure how that
escalated. Obviously, I think in I think
those years with the overbo incident and
it was like
>> intimidation from everything, but it's
not just it's not fans can do it. I
remember Crystal Palace. Crystal Palace.
I refereed Premier League when they won
in the playoffs and when I refereed them
in the Premier League, they never won a game.
game.
>> 10 minutes done. 10 minutes done. I'm
sure Palace might come again a little
bit later. Well debated, guys.
Brilliantly done.
>> What do we think of the current hand
ball law? I think at the moment it's
inconsistent because a defender can be
punished differently to an attacking
player for the same type of offense.
>> Okay. Three, two, one. Anybody feel the
same? Okay, Joe, welcome to the stage.
Fulham, without further ado, my friend,
>> I think we talk all the time about like
the clear and obvious hand balls and
being outside the body, but I feel like
we never see a definition of what is
outside the body and the other day like
full and play Aston Villa arms out here,
but it's a natural position. >> Yeah.
>> Yeah.
>> And I think it should either be defined
as within the body line or, you know,
not a natural position. The problem I've
got is years ago the word deliberate was
in the law and while the word deliberate
was in the law it created problems the
referees because I could stop the game
and go by the way to the player did you
really deliberately handle that ball
what would the player say no I didn't so
therefore what was what was deliberate
had to be taken out because we didn't
you very rare see a player deliberately
handing the ball I think what we need to
accept is that when a ball strikes the
arm. 99% of the time it's going to be
natural. I think defenders are always
going to turn their body. I saw one
years ago, sorry, two years ago, Paris
Sanjgeran, Newcastle, Livermento got
punished with a ham ball. If that's a
ham ball, then I'm lost. >> Yeah.
>> Yeah.
>> Because that is just the ball coming up
onto the arm. He's not trying to make
his body bigger. He's not trying to gain
an advantage by it. I think sometimes it
just naturally hits the arm. I think
because we've had so many
inconsistencies over the last 12 months,
two years, we're screaming every time
that's a handball because the ball hits
his arm. But if I look back at where we
are in the Premier League to the rest of
the world, I think we're quite good in
the Premier League when it comes to
handball. But I just what I what I hate
about the law is why we still got
inconsistencies. If a defender
accidentally handles the ball and clears
it, we don't give a penalty, but an
attacker accidentally handles the ball
and we've saw one where was a couple of
weeks ago where he scored and might have
been it might have been it might have
been Glasgow Rangers in a in a European
tie and it might have hit might have hit
here and it was like nobody ever saw
nobody it was impossible to see live and
I don't believe if you had V what would
have been debated everybody would have
said it's a good goal.
>> And I think sometimes we've got this
problem where we've got all of these
cameras and the VR is frightened because
he thinks why they might the the TV
companies or the the media might show
this like brush of the arm. I think
we're losing the perspective of what the
game is about. The game is about action
entertainment and I feel that we're
getting this stop starter. The VRs are
worrying about the the the slight touch
of the arm. That's never a ham ball and
nobody wants it as a hand ball when
you're making this the one that you're
talking about with Fulham. That's not a
it's just that for me
>> you look back at the the Chelsea game
the week before and Cassin's penalized
for the exact
>> correct that's that's the frustration
and I think if we go back to basics and
say most of the night the only ones that
I want to see is where a player goes
like that. >> Yeah.
>> Yeah.
>> Like Terry Henry hand ball all them
years ago. That's I think we all agree
that's a hand ball. That's
>> Yeah, pretty safely. So there's there's
other instant where a player I think
Luis Suarez touches one over the the bar
in in a World Cup
>> semi quarterfinal or semi-final that's a
ham ball. You know when a player
deliberately saves the ball from going
in the goal that's a ham ball but I
think if a player
>> accidentally like for example touches
him here and the ball's going towards
the goal a player what what can he do
with his arms? You know that's not a
natural position the arms behind the
back that's more than natural. So I
think players should be able to defend
with the arms and if the player now I
used to see Lewis Suarez do it. He was a
brilliant at it. He used to see the arm
out and he used to kick the ball towards
the arm. He was that good at it because
he knew if the the arm was slightly
outstretched and the ball hit him he
would the referees would give a penalty
and he was clever. And players do that
now. They're actually aiming for the
arm. They're not aiming for the cross.
They're just trying to hit that
outstretched arm and players are going
to defend like this. You can't defend.
you turn your body, you're not going to
defend any other way. So, the arm is
coming away. And I don't believe we
should be getting penalties for harm
balls unless it's a really a player
really, really means to do it.
>> Yeah, you've nailed it. >> Okay.
>> Okay.
My friend,
>> you're off. You're off. A few more
minutes. Anybody else want to come
forward and debate the hand ball rule?
Three, two, one.
>> Oh, got Arsenal.
>> You could have made that.
>> Was it Arsenal and Tottenham there? Are
you just let have you just let Arsenal
win again?
>> Okay. Okay.
>> You knew your place.
>> Please go ahead.
>> I don't disagree, but I do think the the
inconsistency that you talk about comes
from a deeper issue which is trying to
change the rules to help V as a
function. So I feel like we've changed
it so that now sorry there's more
factual elements to hull so that V can
go well that's factual. So, for example,
if a goal goes in, does it touch the
attacker's arm in any way, shape, or
form? If yes, handle. >> Yeah.
>> Yeah.
>> I don't have to think about justifiable
position. That was the Matty Cash when
they changed it from a natural position
to adjust.
>> Can I Can I ask you one question? >> Yeah.
>> Yeah.
>> Was Gabrielle's a ham ball at St.
James's Park,
>> I think. Yeah. Yeah, probably. But
that's but that's that's exactly what
I'm I was going there.
>> No, no, but you made a good point
because I think the medal with the
handball too many times that given even
though the law is quite the same how
it's written, there's different
interpretations. I know for example when
I used to referee Spanish teams when I
was in Champions League they every time
the ball hit the arm it was they won a
penalty. In fact in in La Liga at that
time penalties were given more for harm
ball because they just accepted that if
the ball touched the arm it was a
penalty. But we we had then UEFA's
criteria. They were saying no penalty.
Then you've got the Premier League have
different criteria. Probably their bar
line of interventions a lot higher than
around the world. FIFA have another
different interpretation. So all of
these competitions still have a
different interpretation of what is a
harm ball and not. And I think over the
years they meddled with it too many
times. I think the it's it's easy if the
player go back to the deliberate side of
it. If you believe that the players
deliberately handled the ball, if the
referee's opinion he's deliberately
handled that ball in a way, then yeah,
>> penalt that's the thing. And with the
Gabrielle one, it's like they've made it
so that okay cuz it touch it grazes his
shin on the way up. So therefore, it
factually cannot be touches.
>> So So a defender flicks the ball, tries
and clears it, the attacker's trying to
get in and it brushes his arm and the
ball goes a couple of meters in front
and the play the attacker scores. it's
disallowed. But if the attacker goes to
clear it or touch the ball and it
accidentally hits a defender's arm, it's
no hand ball.
>> But how can we have for me, how do we
have two separate situations? I know why
they brought it in because they felt it
was unfair that a player can score a
goal from a hand ball.
>> But hand h hand ball isn't an offense unless
unless
>> you know all these criteria in place. So
why are we punishing it when the arms
are natural? >> Yeah,
>> Yeah,
>> we should even if he scores a goal,
that's life, you know. I think if if if
we deem it no not deliberate or it's not
a hand ball then we shouldn't be
worrying that the ball's just
fractionally touch the arm and going
back to that point if you have that
point it takes out the VR the VR then
doesn't have to get excited at Stockley
Park and think well I've got to rewatch
this I've got to see if it brushes his
arm because the the VR would be looking
at going but nobody's appealing the
players don't think it's a hand ball or
a deliberate handball let's move on
>> yeah and and then we're going to get
we're not going to get 30 seconds of
sitting rounds waiting then thinking you
know what is something really happened
and then you start examining it even
more I think we've complicated it too
much I think we've complicated harm ball
to a point where we've opened up so many
problems and you're right I think
because now we've got this technology in
place the VR is looking at it more where
the referee would just debate it and
just go let's move on and the game
restarts and everybody accepts it.
>> Yeah I think we agree I'll let Ben jump
in. Okay, Ben, go on then. Get yourself.
>> My problem is going to be about the
different laws in
>> Yeah, go on. Comment and I might be able
to pick it up this time.
>> Well, I was going to ask that about UEFA
laws versus laws in the Premier League
because we've all had like you mentioned
the Livermento one. Different decisions
go against your club that wouldn't go
against you in the Premier League. We
just know that. We've all had that lived
experience. We had it with Mus Sokoko in
the Champions League final where there'd
probably be a lot of referees that can
see what Mane has kind of done to
deliberately do that knowing that then
it's hit his kind of shoulder then on
the way down to his arm. Whereas you say
like in other competitions and with
other leagues they'd go hand ball for
anything. It kind of appeal for
everything. So why is that the case that
they have
>> the issue is is that every federation
and every league around the world has
their own thoughts of how the they want
the the league to run. And when I was in
the Premier League, the focus was on entertainment.
entertainment.
>> Not that referees didn't turn a blind
eye, but they wanted the game to flow.
They wanted it exciting. They wanted
more playing time. They wanted a lot of
excitement. I remember refereing the
Battle of the Bridge. >> Yeah.
>> Yeah.
>> You know, that infamous game and and the
drama that brought from an entertainment
factor was
>> dynamite. Yeah. I could have destroyed Tottenham.
Tottenham.
>> Well, no one got sent off in that game.
>> I could I could have I could have
destroyed the game. I could have sent
off many Tottenham players and Tottenham
would have lost the title because of
probably Mark Latenburg if I'd done me
job properly. People would have still
supported us, but I would the abuse I
would have took. I I've decided to
manage the game the way I but we're
allowed to manage. >> Yeah.
>> Yeah.
>> But you've got now a situation where you
try and centralize all of the
federation, all of the sorry, all of the
leagues around Europe to try and have a
consistent approach. And they have their
thoughts. They punish harm ball. And I
know this because I watch Champions
League, they punish hand ball a lot more
than we do in the Premier League.
They're also very strong on challenges.
So, for example, Premier League and you
would you you go and speak to your star
players that come to your clubs, they'll
say one thing. The Premier League is brutal
brutal
>> because referees don't protect us. >> No.
>> No.
>> And that's because the referees allow a
lot more than they do in in in other. >> Yeah.
>> Yeah.
>> All time on that one. Well done. Well
debated everybody. Brilliantly done. So,
there we have it. 20 football fans up
against Mark Clattenburg. Mark, thank
you so much for joining us. I think
everybody here has enjoyed it. Uh, but
before I send you off,
>> thank you.
>> Where can the people at home check out
some of the stuff you're on?
>> Yeah, I'm currently doing a podcast
called Whistleblowers, which debates uh
football. We have a a journalist, we
have myself, and we have a a showbiz
journalist. So, we have it from
different angles. So, we have the on the
field, the journalist with the managers,
but we also have what the players used
to do off the field. So, it's a great
little mixgen. You can get it on the
Daily Mail um and do it on uh watch it
on YouTube.
>> Amazing. Well, without further ado,
Mark, where is it?
>> Yeah. Yeah. Blow your whistle.
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