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The ROOT CAUSE Of Trauma & Why You FEEL LOST In Life | Dr. Gabor Maté & Jay Shetty

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uh tree doesn't grow where it's hard and

thick does it it goes where it's soft

and green and vulnerable the

vulnerability is absolutely essential

for growth and for vulnerability you

gotta let go of those defenses such as

the best-selling author and host the

number one Health and Wellness podcast

on purpose with Jay Shetty

hey everyone welcome back to on purpose

the number one Health podcast in the

world thanks to each and every one of

you that come back every week to listen

learn and grow now I know that if you're

listening right now you're here because

you want to improve your mental

emotional physical and spiritual

well-being I know that you're trying to

heal from trauma from stress from

pressure you're trying to heal

challenges you experienced early in

childhood or ones that you're going

through today and it's my job and it's

my duty and it's my honor and joy to

introduce you to incredible people that

I believe have answers have insights

have helpful approaches to navigating

the challenges we all experience and

today's guest is someone I have been so

excited to speak to for a long time on

on purpose I hope this is not just his

only time on the show I hope this starts

to become a regular guest on the show

I'm talking about none other than Dr

Gabor mate who's a cell rated speaker

and best-selling author he's highly

sought after for his expertise on a

range of topics such as addiction stress

and childhood development Dr mate has

written several best-selling books

including the award-winning in the realm

of hungry ghosts close encounters with

addiction when the body says no the cost

of hidden stress and Scattered Minds the

origins and healing of attention deficit

disorder now today we're talking about

his new book called The Myth of normal

trauma illness and healing in a toxic

culture and we have the link to this in

the notes I want you to go and order

this book right now it is going to blow

your mind the insights of this

individual about what we're going

through as a culture and a society are

going to be really powerful so the book

is called the myth of normal trauma

illness and healing in a toxic culture

please welcome to the show Dr Gabor mate

thank you so much for being here

pleasure to be here thank you I love

sitting down with people

who are deeply immersed and obsessed

with ideas

and observing human behavior I

admire Obsession deeply in admiration

deeply and I admire

the ability to sit with something for a

long enough time but I want to start off

Broad and I want to move in deeper

and I think this is a question that me

and my friends often talk about I think

we hear the word trauma more often these

days yes it's thrown around sometimes

sometimes it's used effectively

sometimes it's used in conversation

around things that some people would

perceive as small and insignificant

sometimes it's used to describe

life-defining things

in your words how would you describe trauma

trauma

and why is it so misunderstood even

though it's so widespread it's a deep

question because on the one hand uh

promise sometimes you somewhat Loosely

and promiscuously

to refer to things that are not

traumatic so people will have a

difficult experience to say I was

traumatized no they weren't they just

had a difficult experience

and this is one of my colleagues points

out all trauma is stressful but not

every stress is traumatic so sometimes

people use the word to refer to

difficult experiences which is not the

same as being traumatized and on the

other hand where it really matters which

is in the area of Health that you and I

are both concerned in whether it's

physical or mental health trauma is not

understood nearly enough or used nearly

enough so that to my mind a lot of

conditions of mind and body are actually

very much trauma related without the

healing profession particularly the

medical profession actually recognizing

it so trombadan is it comes in a Greek

word for wounding drum is a wound it's a

psychic wound that leaves a scar it

leaves an imprint in your nervous system

in your body in your psyche and then

shows up in multiple ways that are not

helpful to you later on so and it's in

its basic sense trauma is a psychic

wound and if you look at the nature of a wound

wound

um on the one hand if it's raw and open

it really hurts so when somebody touches

that wound that you sustained a long

time ago

but it hasn't healed yet you'll react

like you're just being tormented all

over again this happens in relationships

all the time on the other hand

uh wounds scar over and the scar tissue

has certain features is very hard it's

rigid so it's not flexible so people

tend to be rigid when they traumatized

it also doesn't grow so trauma very

often stops emotional growth and development

development

is very raw and painful on the other

hand it's even lacks sensation because

Scar Tissue doesn't have nerve endings

in it

the trauma then just to finish is not

what happened to you so trauma is not

the difficult incidence like trauma is

not the war it's not the

in my case the second world war when I

was born or what happened to me Brahma

is not the abuse that people experienced

drama is not the

pain that they felt trauma is the

wound that is sustained as a result

so the term wasn't for example the

sexual abuse Thomas was the wound that

the person sustained as a result of

having been abused that's the good news

Jay because

he promised the wound that we sustained

it can be healed at any time if trauma

is what happened to me 75 years ago or

78 years ago it happened it never not

will have happened

you know the the partition of India

wounded a lot of people but it never

would it'll never not have happened but

if the wound is what happened to people

inside is the result that can be healed

hmm that's probably the best

differentiator that I've heard and

you're right it is good news because it

means we can't heal it exactly what do

you think of the biggest going the

opposite way we're talking about a wound

and I want to come back to that but

going the opposite way

how would you then Define healing

because that's another word like trauma

that is also just everywhere now right

self-healing healing from this healing

from that I think healing is such a

interesting Concept in and of itself

which again is rarely defined or made

clear to us and from your studies I

would love to hear your thoughts in the

same ways you did for trauma what is

what is healing sure so you mentioned to

me that you spent some time in my

homeland of Hungary where I was born

and the Hungarian word for health

actually begins with the word for

wholeness so

Health literally means wholeness and the

English word for healing and health also

come from an animal Saxon origin meaning wholeness

wholeness

so for some reason language is

internationally have intuited the

essence of healing which is a sense of

completion and wholeness now what trauma

does is it disconnects us it splits us

off from our true self and and

disconnect us from our emotions

even from our bodies

so that that if that disconnection is

the essence of trauma then the healing

is that coming together of the self to

become a whole again

and uh healing is often used

synonymously with cure fair enough but

strangely enough

in my view and not just in my view

people can be cured from an illness

without becoming whole without healing

people sometimes also become healed

without being cured so in essence

healing is not the absence of a physical

illness but it's the Integrity of a

person who's no longer spit off on

themselves I think what we find is that

trauma is so as you said a wound that is

long lasting it can often be that way

yeah but healing is a process that we

want to happen now yeah or today yeah or

tomorrow yeah

I'm intrigued by

how does time we've always heard time

will heal right like that's a whole

cliche it won't yeah right so so let's

go back to the wound and talk about

is there any relationship between time

and wounds or unhealed wounds and what

what is that relationship how is that

wound being formed internally as you

said trauma is not what happens to you

it's what happens inside of you

that which is happening inside of you

what is happening with that wound over

time when it's left what happens is that

it may be lie dormant for a long time

and then something occurs that touches

it is when we talk about people being

triggered for example something touches

the none who will do one inside you and

you react you've just been wounded for

the first time

and certainly I can tell you that's been

the case for me for example in my

marriage relationship is that the the

unhealed wounds you may think you've

gone past them but then something will

happen that touches that wound and you

react like

you're being tormented all over again

for the first time and time does not

automatically heal time maybe scars it

over time maybe makes it less available

to immediate memory but should something happen

happen to

evoke it it's going to show up in its

full painful impact until you do some

work to heal time by itself does not

heal not not spontaneously not

um automatically how do we uncover those

because I feel that and and maybe this

is something to address it's that at

least what I find is that a lot of our beliefs

beliefs

that we have about ourselves and about

others are wired to try and make us feel

safe to some degree so I believe and I'm

hypothetically saying this I believe

that I am right

in my opinion because that makes me feel

safe and and secure

but often to unearth a wound we have to

be okay with the vulnerability of saying

well maybe I'm not right maybe this

response is coming from some wound that

I gain in the past so for example when

you were speaking about your marriage

you sparked something for me I found

that a lot of the love I received when I

was younger

Was Then followed by guilt

so when I received love when I was

younger the idea was if I couldn't

reciprocate with that level of Love I'd

be made to feel guilty that I didn't

love someone enough

and I found that I would repeat that in

my own relationship with my wife where I

would over love

and if she didn't match that level of

love I would then make her feel guilty

and it took me years to really discover

that pattern and that's just one tiny

pattern and whether that's trauma or

difficult experiences a different

conversation but the idea that spotting

that pattern only came from me saying

well maybe I'm wrong maybe me wanting to

make someone feel guilty is not the

right thing

how do we assess that how do we gain the

vulnerability in safety to to create

that future stability does that make

sense well it makes sense of sense

because vulnerability itself is

absolutely essential for growth so

vulnerability the word itself comes from

the Latin word vulnerary to wound so

vulnerability is our capacity to be

wounded now the reality is that as human

beings we're all vulnerable from

conception until death but

when we're hurt in childhood and the vulnerability

vulnerability

is too painful to Bear we will try and

shut down our vulnerability and for

example by being right

because if I'm right then I'm powerful

and I can't be assailed anymore you know

but when we do that we stop growing

everything in nature grows only where

it's vulnerable so a crustacean animal

like a crab inside a hard shell it can't

Crow it has to molt and make itself very

vulnerable to be able to grow a tree

doesn't grow where it's hard and thick

does it it goes where it's soft and

green and vulnerable

the vulnerability is absolutely

essential for growth and for

vulnerability you gotta let go of those

defenses such as being right that you

developed as a child in order to protect

yourself from the pain so that's why we

talk about growing pains because

vulnerability is necessary for growth

without vulnerability there is no growth

wow that what you just said that is so

beautiful you just said vulnerability is

our capacity to be wounded if that's

what it means yeah that's I mean that's

an incredible definition of the word I

think we hear so many definitions of

vulnerability but that that

vulnerability I'm just going to say that

again everyone write that down

vulnerability is our capacity to be wounded

wounded

how do we develop our capacity so

actually let's go back to Childhood

we'll come back to that so if we go to

Childhood yeah what are the things

happening currently that you perceive

and I know you talk about this in your

new book The Myth of normal by the way

everything we're talking about is in

this incredible book The Myth of normal

trauma illness and healing in a toxic

culture if you don't have it please go

and order it now

what is happening in our childhood in

society I guess when you say things are

not happening to us there are still

environmental impacts that are

imprinting the potential for this wound

to grow what are some of those things

that are distorting our development in

unhealthy ways in childhood the two

things one is obvious like when the

children are mistreated maltreated

abused sexually physically emotionally

when there's violence in the family or a

parent is caught up in addiction or

where there's a rancor's divorce and a

lot of conflict in the home children are

just wounded period but it's more

Insidious and more ubiquitous than that

because children have certain basic

needs now if we understand human if you

want to understand the zebra

or a whale

where would you study those creatures in

a zoo or an aquarium or out there in

nature same with human beings so you

have to actually look at what are the

evolutionary determined needs of human

beings as inculcated or instilled in us

through our evolutionary history and so

we evolved with certain needs there used

to be this belief that children or what

are called the tabular rasa you know an

empty slate you can just write whatever

you want on it program the child in any

way you want that used to be the

prevailing belief it's not the true

children are born with not only just

certain needs but certain inherent expectations

expectations

so to give an example your lungs are an

inherent expectation for oxygen because

they developed in response to oxygen if

there'd be no oxygen in the environment

we'd have no lungs

in the same way with the human child it

has certain inherent expectations

and you can wound kids not just by

maltreating them but by not meeting

those expectations when I asked the

expectation I don't mean a conscious

expectation I mean an expectation

inherent in the organism so children

need unconditional living acceptance

by multiple adult caregivers which is

how we evolved in hunter-gatherer groups

and lived that way for millions and

hundreds of thousands of years

children have a need not to have to work

to make the relationship with the

parents work so a child didn't need rest

from having to

struggle to make the relationship

functional so they don't have to be

pretty or cute or compliant or clever or

successful or

any of that stuff they just need to be

and they don't have to work at getting

the parents to accept them that's an

essential need of the child when I say

essential I mean if it's not met that'll

distort child development

the third need is really crucial and in

our society it's hardly ever met which

is the child needs the freedom to

experience all the emotions that nature

has endowed her or him or they with so

we have certain brain circuits for anger

for love for play

or Lust For seeking curiosity

all these circuits are there for a

reason we share them with other animals

we share them with Bear Cubs and puppies

and little whales you know elephant they

need to develop because they're there

for a reason Evolution gave it to us in

our society parents are often advised

and taught to suppress certain emotional

experiences on the part of the child

that's a wound to the child which

distorts their development and has

significant implications for health

later on the fourth need

fourth essential need is fee play out in nature

nature

free play spontaneous creative

imaginative play but that's essential

for healthy brain development

we share that with other animals baby

elephants play Bear Cubs play puppies

play lion cubs play

crucial for play for brain development

we know that now in our society we put

cognitive development way ahead of play

and I be deprived what children of play

by giving them gadgets which deprives

them of your imagination

so we're actually undermining their

brain development and their healthy

unfolding as human beings so

children can be wounded not just by bad

things happening to them but by their

needs not being met and in our society

when you ask about the environmental

conditions that are undermine health and

and Child Development these

environmental conditions in our society

are inimical to a healthy human

unfoldment no wonder we have so many

children in trouble with anxiety and

ADHD and depression and the rate of a

childhood suicide is going up and

the number of kids being medicated with

heavy duty medications multiplicity of

medications is going up why because the

conditions for healthy development are

less and less available to them not

because parents don't love their kids

not because they're not trying to do

their best but because of the conditions

under which parenting takes place

in this Society yeah just to share some

of those stats that are in the book that

Dr mate is referring to

we have in 2019 more than 50 million

Americans over 20 percent of the US

adults suffered an episode of mental

illness rates of obesity along with the

multiple health risks it possesses are

going up in many countries including

Canada Australia and notably the United

States where over 30 percent of the

adult population reached the criteria

and then this part millions of North

American children and youths are being

medicated with stimulants

antidepressants and even antipsychotic

drugs whose long-term effects on the

developing brain are yet to be

established so you know you share all

these insights and research and work

what what I'm interested by is let's say

a child today is raised in that way I

find it fascinating that if you then

migrate that child into the

real world if everyone is listening I'm

doing my quotation marks like real world

they walk into this conditioned world

that we currently have if we almost

raised a village of children in in a I

don't know what the right word is but I

guess in a more natural way

but then they evolved and had to get a

job and work in the world

how would they function what would be

your take on how they would do do I mean

is there any research on that or what

would be your thoughts about how they

would deal with the then capitalist

society that is drilled around results

and performance and being beautiful or

small or cute how would they react to

that that question is yeah she has been

studied to some degree and they would

not automatically buy into the values

so they may um need to get a job but

they wouldn't identify their themselves

with the job and they wouldn't judge themselves

themselves

based on the external values of success

they would also into the world with a

sense of purpose

and I know you

purpose is very important to you

so a sense of purpose can only arise

from us if we're in touch with the real

cells so they would be in the world but

they wouldn't be

of the world in a sense they wouldn't

identify themselves with the values that

society would push on them so I think

they would struggle but they would do

reasonably well and they'd hold them to

themselves in the process they wouldn't

live a life that's based on what do

other people think about me am I pretty

enough do they find me attractive uh

have I

collected enough goods and objects to

make me feel okay about myself they

wouldn't buy into all that and to the

extent that this has been studied and it

has been those people that can be in

this Society without buying into its

values tend to be healthier and more

grounded emotionally the reason why I

love hearing that is because

it's the first time I've

connected these ideas together that when

I was born and raised in London I was I

was born and raised with all the usual

Pursuits I have a good education

a good home a good financial situation

etc those were the ways I was raised and

success was a big part of my culture

yeah and I chased the validation of my

family and the external surroundings in

my community and what my aunts and

uncles thought of me and when that

validation was dissatisfying or didn't

feel like it was actually coming my way

and when I was finally introduced to the

monks at 18 I then seeked the validation

of the monks only for them to teach me

that the issue wasn't who you seek

validation from this you were seeking

validation in the first place and so

what what you've just said to me is in

three years I got a crash course in what

you're saying where we spent more time

in nature yeah we were trained in

unlearning the behaviors and habits that

I'd developed for 80 well 21 years at

the time yeah and then when I came back

into the world the way you just

described that is exactly how I felt

like I almost felt like a new

person coming back into the same world

that I left

with a completely different approach and

a different map of how to navigate it

and you're spot on it's still hard it's

not that it's perfect and it's easy and

it's not that I've got it right it's

just that when I am challenged I have a

toolkit or I have some ideas as you said

with purpose that help me think about

the problem differently you're not

governed by the same thing so when I

went into the world of work and I just

want to give people a practical example

of what Dr mate is saying is spot on

when I went into the world of work we

were all told that we had to be good at

a list of like 10 things in order to

succeed yeah and I looked at that list

of 10 and I was like I can do one of

those things really well and I'm only

going to focus on that one because these

other nine are not not my nature they're

not my purpose

and it's so strange because that one

thing made me extremely successful at

the company I worked were worked at and

then has become how I built my career

and and it's so true that had I had gone

in and done what 90 of people did I

would have become what ninety percent of

people were doing that really deeply

resonates what is the difference though

with and I can't wait to read some of

that research on on that I think that's fascinating

fascinating

when you have

a culture where I think most people who

read this book today

the myth of normal

will say that they can relate to having

trauma illness and trying to be on the

path of healing especially our community

here they they are absolutely going to

love this book this is exactly why we

have this show

but I find that we would all agree I

think if I asked everyone to put up

their hands and say how many people feel

they experienced a traumatic environment

at home

I think most people would raise their

hands if I asked how many people felt

when they were children that they had unhealthy

unhealthy

relationships with their parents to some

degree I think most people would put

their hand up yeah the challenge I find

is that

I I really feel with what you're saying

with the book there's a difference

between what you're saying and then the

other extreme which is Molly coddling so

there's neglect and then there's Molly

coddling and I find that as humans our

brains are wired for extremes so if

we've seen that being

mistreated or neglected is really bad

for us we go the opposite way and we go

okay now I'm going to make sure that

this kid has like 24 cushions around it

I'd be curious to know I like to answer

that question this is a very important

one but I just want to know exactly what

you mean by Molly Carlin what I see and

I'm talking about people that I know and

people that will speak to me is that

anyone who had a tough childhood are

then trying to create a scenario for

their child where that child experiences

no pain they no longer respond to the

child needs they're coming from their

own anxieties yes so monocuddling has

got nothing to do with the child it has

to do with the anxieties of the parents

that kid is going to download the

anxieties of their parents so

mollycodile kids become very anxious and

very scared and very ungrounded in

themselves on the other hand it's not

possible to love kids too much in fact

it was a very interesting study

where they looked at a large number of

mothers and their infants very in the

early few months and most mothers in

this study were seen as

really good Mothers and some were a bit

distant and for their own because of

their own traumas not as available in a

small group we're seen as like super loving

loving

in how they doored over their infants okay

okay

30 years later they looked at these

infants when I was adults

the ones that were most emotionally

grounded and healthy were the ones who

received the super loving

so there's a difference between you

can't love a child too much

what you can so the model calling that

you describe is not a child being loved

too much it's a child who has to enjoy

the anxieties of the parents

and you know there's a very famous

example in world history of someone

whose parents wanted to protect him from

suffering was the Buddha he never saw

death he never saw illness and ever so

old age until he goes out and sees a

dying person sees a very poor person a

very ill person a very old person he

realizes there's suffering in the world

so all the Molly coddling he received

could not ultimately

protect him from the awareness of pain

and vulnerability although if I talk

about the Buddha I also have to say that

his own trauma is often not talked about

because his mother died when he was a

week old or right after birth didn't he

didn't she so even they try to protect

her him they couldn't

you know but so anyway Molly coding has

got nothing to do with the needs of the

child yeah that's a great

differentiation it has to do with the

unmet needs of the parents and as soon

as parents project their needs onto the

child no longer see the child as they

exist they see their own anxieties

they're on their fears and their own fantasies

fantasies

naturally that's going to hurt the child

yeah that's such a great differentiator that's

that's

again it's a trauma response it's a

trauma yeah it's a trauma response how

and when should children young adults be

exposed to pain in order to develop

their vulnerability like as you said the

capacity to experience a wound like how

and when do we allow ourselves how

should we what environment is required

to allow ourselves

to experience pain in a healthy way or

or is it just gonna come anyway it's the

nature of life there's no reason to

deliberately expose children to pain

because they're going to experience it

the question is how do we support them

and they do you know why because their

puppy's gonna die

because grandfather is going to die

because some neighborhood friend won't

want to play with them because

because

they're not going to get the toy they

wanted because um

some disappointment will happen

you know

um so pain is inevitable

but it doesn't have to become traumatic

If the child is supported in

experiencing the pain and moving past it

so we don't have to impose or bring pain

into kid's life to train them

life's gonna do that the question is how

are we to interact with them while

they're enduring the pain yeah and what

would you say those are obviously

there's the love part which you spoke

about but

when when a child is going through

something like this let's talk about

loss because I think that's a big one

right like whether you're using a parent

or losing a puppy as you said or

uh or even if it's not losing a parent

to death it's losing a parent to a

divorce it's you know for example

correct yeah so grief and loss doesn't

have to be the end of life it can be

everything what or a loss of a country

what what are the steps that someone

should take in order to helps guide

through anyone through law it's not just

a child well endlessly enough when I

spoke about these brain circuits that we

share with those animals

for play and for loving and seeking we

also have a brain surgery for panic and grief

grief

whether we have that because life brings

loss and so grief is essential for life

because grief is

coming to terms with the fact that

something is gone is not going to come back

back

you know so um I mean a child

experiences grief and you know I said

that the the need of the child is to be

able to experience all the emotions

they need to be able to experience the

grief as well um

and it doesn't matter whether from adult

eyes we see that loss as major or minor

it's a question of how's the child

experiencing it

and for a small child

even what looks like small losses can be

very painful

well then we don't make the child wrong

for it we don't say get over it there's

nothing wrong think of all the other

children who are suffering all that kind

of relativistic uh shaming

stuff you say oh it really hurts doesn't

it you really wish Grandpa would would

be here with you you really wish Mom and

Dad weren't leaving each other

it hurts in other words you just

validate their emotions

by doing so you help them accept the

loss and you have to move through and

you help them learn that they can endure

difficult emotions without having to become

become

falling to pieces so we have a circuitry

for grief in our brain for grief in our

brains it needs to be allowed to do its

work I find that a lot of us today are

reflecting on that inner child right

like that language is

again more widespread today or is

growing the idea of like oh we have this

inner child who has this wound or this trauma

trauma

what what do you find is the difference

between analyzing and over analyzing or

thinking and overthinking these

experiences and how would you define the

difference because

I I and I'm being very honest and

vulnerable because it's the only way to

have this conversation really like I

often think about events in my life that happened

happened

that would be considered

generally as either difficult

experiences or as traumatic right they

could be seen as either or

there are some of them that I've worked

through myself or with with people that

I trust or with guides and

and and obviously through my monk life

there were things that I looked at and

worked on but there are certain things

that I don't feel a need

like I don't feel a desire to dive into

the question I'm asking is should I dive

into them or is that considered over

analyzing and overthinking and I ask

that for everyone else who's listening

to this going gosh have I thought about

everything that happened to me I could

be there for a while uh yeah what's your

take on that well first of all in my

world there's no should okay there's no

there are no shoulds there's no should

yeah so um I would never see anybody you

should you know because

um that itself is intrusive

so the question is whether it's helpful

or not to delve into the past depends on

what's happening with that individual

and if some of the impacts effects of

trauma as we said earlier is that the

the wounds of the past keep showing up

in the present

so from my point of view it's not so

much about delving into the past and

dwelling on the past

but on dealing with how the past they

show up in the present what a

psychologist friend of mine Peter Levine

calls the tyranny of the past where the

past dominates my present reactions

it doesn't matter how many times I go

back and think about my childhood story

that's not going to help me what I have

to deal with is

what's happening in Mina right now at

this very second which is the shadow of

the past so

thinking about it is not going to be of

much help

um what's going to help is to deal with

the emotions that are arising now as a

result of what happened and how those

emotions affect my life

in the present moment so it's not about

the past it's about the present yeah so

it's it's really about the choices we

have now exactly what's available to us

now yeah what's available to us now

because I feel like we didn't have a

choice in the past because we were there

too young or exactly too incapable of of

making a choice exactly but the choices

that happen right now are can transform

everything it is possible some people do

make themselves into victims they kind

of identify with the victim rule all

this stuff happened to me and therefore

I cannot do such and such or I'm keep or

I'm heard and I'll never get over it

it's possible to identify with the

victim wrong

it's even possible to identify with the

survival I'm a Survivor well no that's

not who you are you survived but who you

are is much greater than that particular

experience and who you've always lost

much always much greater than

your suffering you know and so it is

possible for some people to identify

with the suffering and the past to such

a degree that they stop moving forward

yes I think you've just raised really

important component of all of this on a

deeper level is that

what we identify with right even earlier

you were talking about people who would

be raised in this hypothetical Village

we were talking about but even through

research they won't identify with the

values of a capitalist Society yeah

identification you just said people

could identify as a victim they could

identify as a survivor

what is a healthy identification

there isn't there isn't one right

because I if you look at again the

meaning of words and I just find the

words fascinating yeah identification

comes from a Latin word uh edem which

means the same and fechera to make

as soon as I make myself the same as

something like if I identify with my

role as a doctor

I immediately limit myself

if you identify with your experience as

a monk

and I don't mean not to learn from it or

to grow from it but if I identify with

it that's what I am you've now narrowed yourself

yourself

so there's no healthy identification if

I identify

myself with a state

or a nation I could be loyal to that

state or Nation I could love that state

or Nation or any group but if you

identify with it such as new you have no

independent existence you've limited

yourself already so when you say is

there a healthy identification not really

really

isn't the challenge though that we're I

think all of us are pursuing some sort

of identification like that seems to be

a massive human need like I support this

football club or I'm a fan of this band

or I'm a member of the this car club or

I go to this shopping grocery store or

like I feel like we're all wanting to be

members like that seems to be like a

human need of wanting to be a member of

a community wanting to identify with something

something

it is a human need to belong and uh but

but can we belong without identifying to

the point that we have no independent

perspective you know in other words can

we be authentic then and I talk a lot

about this tension between authenticity

being ourselves and attachment which is

belonging ideally we can both be

authentic and belong

yeah but but that kind of identification

often leads to suffering I mean it's

what the Buddhists call attachment isn't

it and let me give you an example so you

mentioned sports team so in in the night

you wouldn't know this but in the 1950s

the Hungarian soccer team was the best

in the world we never lost that's I did

not I love soccer and I did not no no we

went to Britain and we beat Britain six

to three in Wembley Stadium the first

the first time that it was a sorry Brit

fans yeah sorry about but you know um

and it was a huge national holiday in

Hungary and small country goes to Mighty

Britain and beats them at their own game

you know

and the next year every the whole

country was joyful and there's still one

of the great memories of my childhood

the next year when the world

championships and were the heavy

favorites because we haven't lost for years

years

and we meet the Germans in the final and

we lose three to two yeah National tragedy

tragedy

uh I'm telling you it still hurts you know

know

it's just a football game played on the

pitch by 22 guys in 1954.

so what you know but when you when this

is over identification yeah then that

itself brings suffering now you know yes

you can support your team

in Vancouver British Columbia where I live

live

it's a very peaceful place but the

Vancouver connects which is a local

hockey team made it to the Stanley Cup

finals and they lost they were riots in

the streets why because people had over

identified you can enjoy the team and be a

a sports fan but the identification that

your joy or satisfaction depends on

whether your team loses or wins well why

it doesn't matter yeah I I love that

answer for many reasons because

I've had to go through the

grief of letting go of past selves

adopting new selves and then having to

realize that none of those were me as my

identification so as you rightly said

when I took off the garbs of a monk when

I took off my robes

it was really tough because there was a

part of my identity especially at a

young age that was attached even to the

outer covering and had to realize that I

had to extract the inner beliefs and

leave the outer covering behind and the

outer name and the what that meant and

even in my career today like I've had to

let go and and even now I don't even

know how to identify in one sense

whenever I'm sure I'm sure you feel this

to some degree in your work as well it's

like whenever they say like oh when

you're on TV and they want to put like

your your title and they'll be like Jay

what's your title I'm like I I'm more

defined by my purpose than my profession

like you know what I what I do for

people and the service I want to offer

in the world is far more important to me

than author or podcaster or former monk

or like those things don't really Define

me well I get that totally I I am yeah

what I'm thinking about is you're

telling me when you left those monks

robes we talked about the crab didn't we

with the heart shell to grow you have to

let go of the Shell at some point so

each of those moldings represent the

point of growth but if the time is

difficult so when I left Family Practice

to go and work with a highly addicted

population in Vancouver

and it was a loss of identity for a

while I was a bit disoriented for a few

days because all these people these

families that had relied on me to be the

kind of the linchpin of their linchpin

of their health and all these people

that have come to me and trust me and

um who I would see in the office and all

of a sudden I left that

so I totally understand that no the

reality is that I'm so grateful that I

did but then I got to experience in the

next realm of work helped to further

Define my purpose in life and taught me

so much about myself and human beings and

and

but at the time it was difficult letting

go that identification was difficult and

there was really that sense of

well if I'm not that then what am I this

is what happens when we identify with

rules yeah if anyone's listening and

wants to have go at figuring out what

your subconscious answer is ask one of

your friends ask them and then get them

to ask you who are you yeah and and your

answer to that question not an episode

of the time when you ask someone who are

you they'll say I'm a lawyer I'm an

accountant I'm uh I'm a Brit I'm an

American I'm you know always the answer

is on such a material Level well as one

spiritual teacher said I think unless

they're making this up but I think he

said they said that the problem is not

not knowing who you are the problem is

thinking that you know who we are yeah

yeah yeah it's incredible isn't it that

the things that a true safety feel

unsafe to the mind yeah and I'm

intrigued by that because you've studied

the mind you've studied addiction you've

studied healing you studied trauma why

is it that we seek certainty and

stability when you earlier also said

that the only time we experience growth

is the opposite when we're vulnerable

why is it that we're so addicted

to things staying the same or things not

changing like that seems to be a core

human addiction well a therapist once

said to me that this has to do with the

nature of the Mind

that you're referring to

um a therapist once said to me but if

your parents didn't know how to hold you

you develop the mind you hold yourself with

with

so you find safety in his mind that you

created and so the human mind the

ordinary egoic human mind is basically a

defensive structure

it's in significant ways it's a response

to pain that's not all it is but in

significant ways it's a response to pain

it's a fate of pain and it's designed to

keep you from experiencing pain so it's

worried and it's anxious and it's defensive

defensive

so when it comes to change and

vulnerability the Mind wants to defend

against it

and so it's it comes out of fear which

comes out of childhood experience where

the pain that you had wasn't held

and therefore we developed these mind

structures to keep you from experiencing

it and I mean one of them clearly is

addiction and you know Keith Richards

the world's most famous former heroin

addict the Rolling Stone guitarist

said about addiction for example

his heroine use

that the contortions you go through just

not to be yourself for a few hours

now why would somebody not want to be

themselves because it hurts so much at

some point to be yourself

and then the Mind comes in and tries to

protect you on that pain of being yourself

yourself

with its ideas and his beliefs and its

certainties and its endless desires and

its artificial needs

and it's her faith to let go

because if I let go

I'll be helpless child again but the

Mind large is a defensive structure and

then often will react that way that

defensive structure

obviously it sets us up for so much what

is happening inside that makes two

people react completely differently to

the same thing right you could have a

parent that's a drug addict and one of

the children goes I'm never gonna have

drugs ever again because I saw what I

did to my parents and the other person

actually imitates the behavior and goes

down the same path what have you found

or seen that at a young age creates that

different Journey well the first thing

to say is that no two children have the

same two parents and no two children

have the same childhoods even even

though they grew up in the same biological

biological

a family because first of all one of

them came along at a different time

so they had a different set of

experiences this is the birth order that

affects how children experience the parents

parents

then there's degrees of sensitivities so

some people are born more sensitive than

others sensitive a game comes on the

Latin word sincere to feel so the more

sensitive we are the more we feel

given the right environment

nourishing supportive

grounded environment that sensitive

child just becomes an intuitive a

Creator an artist an actor a leader but

in an environment where there's pain

that sensitive child suffers more pain

than a less sensitive one

so you'll have more of a reason to

escape from the pain

it's not so much that he imitates the

behavior of the adult is that he takes

the same Escape Route

and actions are always there in my view

at least an escape route from pain

so it has to do with birth order with

family circumstances it degrees of sensitivity

sensitivity

having said that the other child who

doesn't become an addict hasn't

necessarily escaped

they just may have developed different

coping mechanisms

there might have become one of these

people that are going to make a big

success in the world out of themselves

and they're going to never going to fail

and they have to be the best and they're

going to suffer too they just might

suffer in a different way that

sensitivity you're talking about is

probably one of the biggest

questions I get asked right now and I I

want to ask it to you because I feel

your experience could offer some real

light on it I feel people are

experiencing so much sensitivity

and empathy that they just can't stand

the world we live in today there are

people like that and and I hear this

again and again where it's like whether

it's the political climate or the

economic climate or their family have

addictions or friends like everything

that you talk about in the book

and people feel this can't be my home

like I this this is not the place I want

to live in and so just as you were

saying earlier that someone may have the

thought I don't want to be myself or

feel like myself for a few hours people

say well this doesn't feel like the

world I want to live in

I'm sure you've met many people who've

felt that way seen that way or maybe

even talked that way I haven't met

people let me tell you something I

worked with you I I

I had an experience with ketamine a few

years ago this is an academy and

training for healers and I was injected

with ketamine it was taking me where I

was taking me and all of a sudden I

found myself screaming I hate the world

that was good that it would came out of

me so I totally know what you're talking

I'm just saying that that person I

personally know what you're talking

about okay so here's the thing

I think a lot of that has to do with

at first of all the world is getting

more stressed it's getting more splited

everybody sees that it's getting more

hostile in a lot of ways getting more

less welcoming and more dangerous

more alienating

on the one at the other hand we're more

and more alone with it I isolation and

loneliness are rising so

if people experience pain and change and

um stress or even Danger communally

is bearable

but when we're alone with it it becomes

less and less bearable and so one of the

major factors driving I think the

sensitivity that you're describing is

just how alone people feel

which is how not not how we're meant to

be so that the capitalist values of you

know aggressive individualistic uh uh

ruthless greed and competition

against everybody else that doesn't

reflect human needs or even human nature

not as we evolved

but the world the more the world gets

that way and the more isolated we become

the more vulnerable we are to be hurt by

the world that we live in and I think

that's what people are talking about um

yeah I think one of the biggest things

for me I was really fortunate that the

client-side coach and the people that I

work with I got to experience a lot of

individuals who were vulnerable with me

but they experienced being

lonely and successful

and lonely success

didn't bring happiness

and I know that one thing that me and my

wife were always talking about

especially because we're in a country

where we don't have any family we had to

start from scratch in our friendship

work and everything was I heard you say

in a podcast of how important families

to your wife for example for my wife

it's huge like her personal family is

like everything to her like that's her

greatest value

but here we had to build our family yeah

and I think one of the things we

constantly do is we try and make a

concerted effort in order to cultivate

and curate our community in LA and it's

fascinating to me because again

perception comes in where most people

say to me well la is a very shallow

place like La is a very fake place and

also well I found some of my best

friends here and incredible human beings

how much does that perception of a place

or a space or a person actually also

make us more lonely because I find

sometimes that loneliness is created by

perception like if we're scared of being

vulnerable with someone it's hard that

someone will be vulnerable with us right

so what do we need to do in order to

build deeper relationships for healing

and in this path that you're suggesting

well first of all it occurs to me that

loneliness is

obvious perception there's a difference

between being alone and being lonely

alone is just a fact and that we can

Embrace and make decisions about loneliness

loneliness

it's got an emotional

charge to it

and that's very much a matter of perception

perception

you can be alone

and not be lonely

and you can be surrounded by all kinds

of people and be completely lonely

so that goes how open am I I'll

vulnerable am I really really willing to be

what defenses have I erected around

myself to protect myself that keeps me

from really contacting other people

I think we unwittingly generate

loneliness there's also something else

that happens and you referred to this

earlier you talked about Elders so in

our society we don't talk about Elders

we talk about the elderly it's not the

same in our society that defines people

so much in terms of their economic value

we tend to discard people that are not

perceived as having economic value

either as producers or consumers

so this Society generates a lot of

loneliness just because it's

materialistic values

and in other functioning cultures Elders

are not only they're respected but

they're also

they have a purpose

they have the wisdom they have the

experience they have the vision they

have let go of a lot of the attachments

that youth invariably engages with so

they have a lot to offer

so loneliness is also created in a

society that has a very rigid and

limited set of values yeah I love the

change in the language again of the

elders and the elderly and it's

I I always go back to that time in my

life because it it gave me so much but

growing up around people that were the

same age younger older yeah and Elder

gave you so many different visions of life

life

and when I look back at my childhood or

my young adulthood I was constantly

surrounded by people that were older

than me younger than me much older than

me and wiser than me yeah and being able

to have everyone's Vantage Point yes

created a beautiful 360 degree picture

of Life yes but most of today we're only

seeing one degree if you spend time with

only people your age you're getting a

very limited Viewpoint of life versus if

you're spending time with a much wider

age range and you tend to get a much

less mature and rounded view of life one

of the books I've helped to write core

word is called hold on to your kids but

parents need to matter more than peers and

and

the point made in that book is precisely

what you just articulated which is that

for so many people their world begins

and ends with their own age group

which is a developmental disaster

because again we evolved as creatures in

touch with multiple people of multiple ages

ages

and we've spent our time around people

with multiple ages

when you isolate people by age as this

culture largely does I mean there's

subgroups within subgroups within

subcultures within subcultures in a

society all based on

very shallow identification with age

it just limits our development

and limits our possibilities and and

with that development how do you see

human nature do you see human nature as

muddied trying to become Pure or

beginning at pure and then getting

muddied and then trying to go back early

how do you see that well we do happen to

have a trap to a human nature in this

book and and pondering that same

question that Jesus raised I'm always

come to the conclusion it's not that

there's a definable human nature not

that you can say because I mean look

Buddha was a human being Hitler was a

human being

one is full of compassion and love and

giving the others full of greed and

aggression and hatred they're both human

beings so how can you talk about the

defined human nature however what I

think we can say confidently

that is a certain human potential

based on human needs

if those needs are met

development would be healthy and those

potential will be realized

if those needs are frustrated

which they severely were in the case of

say ahead there a terribly abused child

then what you get is the hatred and the

rage and the murderous Venom

Venom

that characterize that personality now

when you couple that with political

power you see what happens

but that's not human nature it's just

human nature thwarted because the needs

of that child were not met in a society

that was completely incapable of meeting

people's needs in fact totally abused

them so

human nature to me is not a given what

behaves a human potential based on human

needs of these needs are satisfied we

can be reasonably confident that people

will be connected and generous most

people want to be kind I mean it's

interesting in a society when somebody

does something selfish

or greedy you say that's just human

nature hmm do we say that when

somebody's kind or generous

yeah never the the educator Alfie Cohen

points that out and if you ask most

people when did your body feel more of

these when do you experience more peace

when you've been kind and generous and

giving authentically not for not a sense

of Duty but because

that was just the impulse or when you're

grasping and greedy when is there more

tension and more discomfort inside so

that should tell us something about our

nature that that our nature wants to be

aligned with connection and generosity

and giving because our bodies will tell

us that that is so true that is so true

I mean there is no time in life when

you're bitter at someone or angry at

someone that makes you feel good inside

like it does yeah gut wise too I'm not

just meaning in the hot space but in in

all areas of your body the tension the

stress the the holding the tightening

but but like we were talking about

earlier Society set up in a way for

false identification and divisive

identification whether it be two sets of

soccer fans who now hate each other or

rioting or whether it be you know

political parties or whether it be

businesses at war with each other right

like everything's set up in a way to get

you to identify with something in order

for you to be against something like

that's what naturally ends up happening

even schools like I went to this school

you went to that school we competed

competition seems to be something that

has been carefully crafted by capitalist

society and then when you see the rise

of and by the way I love competition so

I Health competition is great uh so I'm

not talking bad about competition but

it's interesting to see how again it's

so hard to compete without identifying

as that being your worth yeah and that

requires so much mental spiritual

strength in my opinion to be able to

differentiate between identification and

attachment well it's really interesting because

because

let's take the example of sports that

you just mentioned what do you call the

people who participate in those words

that we call them players

what do we call the process that they're

engaged in we call it a game

but we don't treat it like players we

don't treat it like a game because real

games and real play Has No Agenda

there's competition in the process and

you want to do your best

but in the end

it doesn't matter if it's just it's for

the process and for the joy of it that's

genuine play

well when you think about these

multi-billion dollars Sports Industries

and the

strategy and the hype

that goes into these are not players

anymore these are warriors almost as if

their engagements are kind of a battle

and winning and losing becomes

everything like the famous Vince

Lombardi Winning is not the only thing

is the only thing well that's not true people

people

that's true for the purposes of playing

as long as you recognize that you're

only playing

as long as you don't confuse the game

with life itself but once it becomes a

business and becomes cutthroat

that confusion

is really prevalent and people take it

so seriously so when you think think

about it like you have these terrible

conflicts in the world like the war in

the Ukraine right now the average person

how much time are they induced to spend

thinking about those large issues

or say but

climate change that only the blindness

of the blind

or the wickedness the wickedest can at

this point deny as a reality

but how much of our life do we spend

actually pondering and engaging with

these larger issues compared with analyzing

analyzing

which quarterback should have played in

which quarter of which particular NFL

game you know so that these so-called

games and these so-called players have

assumed that far larger importance in

their life in our lives whereas the real

things we we tend to ignore you've just

sparked something for me that

I was blown away by this experience I

recently went to Rwanda

and I went there with Ellen DeGeneres in

collaboration with the dying Fosse

finders opened up a guerrilla sanctuary

and a Conservation Center yes and we went there to Trek with the gorillas

went there to Trek with the gorillas learn about gorillas learn about Rwanda

learn about gorillas learn about Rwanda and I had never been to Rwanda before I

and I had never been to Rwanda before I I didn't know if I would have visited if

I didn't know if I would have visited if it wasn't for her

it wasn't for her and the biggest thing I took away

and the biggest thing I took away obviously trekking with gorillas and

obviously trekking with gorillas and being in nature with a form of life that

being in nature with a form of life that has no interest in us but we're totally

has no interest in us but we're totally fascinated by them was an incredible

fascinated by them was an incredible experience and I'll talk about that

experience and I'll talk about that separately but the reason I brought it

separately but the reason I brought it up here is I also took time to go to the

up here is I also took time to go to the genocide Memorial Museum yes

genocide Memorial Museum yes and it was fascinating for me to learn

and it was fascinating for me to learn that it's been around 20 years from what

that it's been around 20 years from what I remember a tenth of the population of

I remember a tenth of the population of the country so like a million people

the country so like a million people have like 10 million people died in the

have like 10 million people died in the genocide were killed in the genocide

genocide were killed in the genocide yeah and most of the people who lived

yeah and most of the people who lived there today it was their parents it was

there today it was their parents it was their ancestors that that did this just

their ancestors that that did this just 20 years ago which is not a long time at

20 years ago which is not a long time at all

all and I met some of the survivors I sat

and I met some of the survivors I sat with them in the museum I talked to them

with them in the museum I talked to them we talked to the to the locals we talked

we talked to the to the locals we talked to people that were helping us with our

to people that were helping us with our travel and arrangements and the hotels

travel and arrangements and the hotels we stayed at

we stayed at and it fascinated me that the people

and it fascinated me that the people were so healed like there was such a

were so healed like there was such a genuine sincere conversation that they

genuine sincere conversation that they have now let go of this to tribe culture

have now let go of this to tribe culture they've let go of the names the

they've let go of the names the identification that they're living by a

identification that they're living by a principle they call Ubuntu I am because

principle they call Ubuntu I am because you are I believe or you are because I

you are I believe or you are because I am like that's I'll get that right but

am like that's I'll get that right but Ubuntu is the word that they use and it

Ubuntu is the word that they use and it was so special I was I was totally I'm

was so special I was I was totally I'm curious to ask did you delve into what

curious to ask did you delve into what allow them to do that they they said a

allow them to do that they they said a lot of it came through the leadership

lot of it came through the leadership like they said that that was how they

like they said that that was how they were being it's what you're saying like

were being it's what you're saying like when you said like they were asked to

when you said like they were asked to you're saying we don't make time to

you're saying we don't make time to focus on these huge issues because we're

focus on these huge issues because we're too busy wondering which player played

too busy wondering which player played in which position yeah that's they

in which position yeah that's they didn't say it in that way but that's

didn't say it in that way but that's what they were saying that our

what they were saying that our leadership encouraged us to think in

leadership encouraged us to think in this way

this way and I couldn't believe that in 20 years

and I couldn't believe that in 20 years when your parents have probably killed

when your parents have probably killed their parents that you were standing

their parents that you were standing next to each other not worrying about

next to each other not worrying about the lineage that this this culture was

the lineage that this this culture was set out and it was the Europeans who who

set out and it was the Europeans who who set up part of that anyway but I just

set up part of that anyway but I just wanted to understand from you like what

wanted to understand from you like what does it take to get to that level of

does it take to get to that level of healing because that's you know people

healing because that's you know people would say okay well that's a 10 million

would say okay well that's a 10 million population to me that's still a

population to me that's still a humongous win for the world yeah

humongous win for the world yeah um I was wondering if you've seen

um I was wondering if you've seen cultures if you've seen even smaller

cultures if you've seen even smaller groups or even living through the war

groups or even living through the war where you've seen that kind of healing

where you've seen that kind of healing before I don't know how the hearing

before I don't know how the hearing happened in Rwanda um yeah

happened in Rwanda um yeah really encouraged to hear what you

really encouraged to hear what you describe here I think at the very least

describe here I think at the very least of it the suffering had to be

of it the suffering had to be acknowledged and had to be heard

acknowledged and had to be heard um and fully acknowledged and then the

um and fully acknowledged and then the hearing can take place yeah

hearing can take place yeah um without that it can't of course

um without that it can't of course absolutely which is why it's so

absolutely which is why it's so important to understand trauma the

important to understand trauma the suffering has to be acknowledged now in

suffering has to be acknowledged now in my country Canada like when you talked

my country Canada like when you talked about Rwanda of course that tribal

about Rwanda of course that tribal hatred didn't just

hatred didn't just ariser from nowhere nor is it

ariser from nowhere nor is it necessarily in the nature of those

necessarily in the nature of those people to be like that a lot of it was

people to be like that a lot of it was the legacy of colonialism that quite

the legacy of colonialism that quite deliberately and

deliberately and you would know something about British

you would know something about British colonialism

colonialism um it quite it quite deliberately said

um it quite it quite deliberately said one group against another the legacy of

one group against another the legacy of which was often tremendous struggle and

which was often tremendous struggle and hatred and violence in Canada as in the

hatred and violence in Canada as in the United States the legacy of colonism

United States the legacy of colonism Falls far more particularly on our

Falls far more particularly on our indigenous peoples

indigenous peoples so then to this day

so then to this day they suffer so much the addiction made

they suffer so much the addiction made as much higher amongst them fifty

as much higher amongst them fifty percent of the women in jail in my

percent of the women in jail in my country are indigenous people wow they

country are indigenous people wow they make up five percent of the population

make up five percent of the population wow an indigenous woman is six times the

wow an indigenous woman is six times the rate of rheumatoid arthritis

rate of rheumatoid arthritis they never used to rheumatoid arthritis

they never used to rheumatoid arthritis prior to colonization there's been some

prior to colonization there's been some apologies in Canadian history

apologies in Canadian history but there's been not sufficient

but there's been not sufficient acknowledgment of what actually happened

acknowledgment of what actually happened and what continues to happen

and what continues to happen and I'm saying that an essential

and I'm saying that an essential condition for that healing would have to

condition for that healing would have to be acknowledgment

be acknowledgment so the wolf came to Canada just maybe

so the wolf came to Canada just maybe six weeks ago because

six weeks ago because the church cooperated with the state to

the church cooperated with the state to abduct children from their homes

abduct children from their homes indigenous children from their homes for

indigenous children from their homes for over 100 years

over 100 years into the 1990s into these residential

into the 1990s into these residential schools where our native children were

schools where our native children were not allowed to see their parents where

not allowed to see their parents where their culture was extirpated they had

their culture was extirpated they had pins stuck in their tongue if they spoke

pins stuck in their tongue if they spoke their tribal language

their tribal language they were sexually abused often they

they were sexually abused often they died they were physically abused they

died they were physically abused they were starved and the pool came and

were starved and the pool came and apologized

apologized and you know what the apology was I'm so

and you know what the apology was I'm so sorry for what some Christians did to

sorry for what some Christians did to your people

your people well that's

well that's he means well as a person

he means well as a person but that wasn't that was an apology

but that wasn't that was an apology uttered by an institution

uttered by an institution because it wasn't

because it wasn't or it should have been uttered by the

or it should have been uttered by the institution but they said what some

institution but they said what some Christian wasn't some Christians it was

Christian wasn't some Christians it was the state

the state and it was the church and what I'm

and it was the church and what I'm saying is that was a good first step

saying is that was a good first step but until there's full acknowledgment

but until there's full acknowledgment and and we are fully willing to hear the

and and we are fully willing to hear the suffering of the people that we hurt and

suffering of the people that we hurt and that's why in the 12 Steps whether they

that's why in the 12 Steps whether they do they lose moral inventory how did we

do they lose moral inventory how did we hurt somebody and how can we without

hurt somebody and how can we without imposing on them

imposing on them how can we acknowledge

how can we acknowledge if that's appropriate so I think for

if that's appropriate so I think for healing whether for myself or people

healing whether for myself or people that I've heard

that I've heard there has to be acknowledgment yeah of

there has to be acknowledgment yeah of the of the suffering itself I think

the of the suffering itself I think that's the First Essential step the

that's the First Essential step the challenge we have though right in

challenge we have though right in society is that

society is that I fully agree with you but from for most

I fully agree with you but from for most people we will never get the apology we

people we will never get the apology we deserve because again we live in an

deserve because again we live in an unhealed environment where people are

unhealed environment where people are not coming out of the woodwork and

not coming out of the woodwork and saying I'm so sorry for what happened

saying I'm so sorry for what happened and even if they do it's a bad apology

and even if they do it's a bad apology or a incomplete apology or a 10 apology

or a incomplete apology or a 10 apology so how do we function in a world where

so how do we function in a world where often the closure

often the closure doesn't come from the person who hurt us

doesn't come from the person who hurt us or the person who created the wound or

or the person who created the wound or that we received a wound through and it

that we received a wound through and it really comes down to us like no that's

really comes down to us like no that's true yeah so I work a lot with

true yeah so I work a lot with indigenous groups in Canada

indigenous groups in Canada um when they asked me to and first of

um when they asked me to and first of all I often say about who the hell am I

all I often say about who the hell am I to offer your advice because in your

to offer your advice because in your Traditions there's so much healing

Traditions there's so much healing wisdom so that the best advice I can

wisdom so that the best advice I can give you a store

give you a store follow your own Traditions but I often

follow your own Traditions but I often say to them as well don't wait for the

say to them as well don't wait for the acknowledgment from the government or

acknowledgment from the government or from society because it's going to take

from society because it's going to take a long time coming but you need to

a long time coming but you need to acknowledge your own suffering

acknowledge your own suffering you need to acknowledge your own pain

you need to acknowledge your own pain and then

and then there's so many rituals there's so many

there's so many rituals there's so many Traditions the dance and the chanting

Traditions the dance and the chanting and the drumming and the sweat lodges

and the drumming and the sweat lodges and the the sun dancing and the going

and the the sun dancing and the going back to the land and the wisdom circles

back to the land and the wisdom circles and the and the restorative justice

and the and the restorative justice there's so much wisdom so what I'm

there's so much wisdom so what I'm saying to people is acknowledge your own

saying to people is acknowledge your own suffering but to look to the wisdom

suffering but to look to the wisdom Within

Within toward the healing and it's there that

toward the healing and it's there that wisdom to heal is inside cultures and

wisdom to heal is inside cultures and Society peoples and inside individuals

Society peoples and inside individuals as well

as well we both have to acknowledge the

we both have to acknowledge the suffering and not get stuck on it yeah

suffering and not get stuck on it yeah but then to look for the healing

but then to look for the healing capacity within yeah and you certainly

capacity within yeah and you certainly can't wait for the world to

can't wait for the world to it's nice but you can't wait for it

it's nice but you can't wait for it otherwise you're dependent on somebody

otherwise you're dependent on somebody else for your healing yeah and I feel

else for your healing yeah and I feel like when you're healing

like when you're healing most apologies are dissatisfying like

most apologies are dissatisfying like when you're healed or and we'll talk

when you're healed or and we'll talk about that what that means but I feel

about that what that means but I feel like when you're more along the process

like when you're more along the process of healing you can receive an apology

of healing you can receive an apology you can receive a a vulnerable piece of

you can receive a a vulnerable piece of information from someone who may have

information from someone who may have hurt you or but when you're when you're

hurt you or but when you're when you're in the thick of the healing process I

in the thick of the healing process I find that validation and apologies

find that validation and apologies rarely really feel that good like you

rarely really feel that good like you know and I'm saying that for myself I

know and I'm saying that for myself I know that when I've worked when I've

know that when I've worked when I've been in the thick of like working really

been in the thick of like working really hard in my life or trying to make

hard in my life or trying to make something happen and someone says yeah

something happen and someone says yeah you're doing great it doesn't feel like

you're doing great it doesn't feel like anything because you almost feel you

anything because you almost feel you don't feel fully understood it doesn't

don't feel fully understood it doesn't make sense yeah

make sense yeah seeing you yeah and you don't feel seen

seeing you yeah and you don't feel seen no you don't feel seen there's seen some

no you don't feel seen there's seen some aspect of you yeah but we need to be

aspect of you yeah but we need to be seen that's that's a human need there's

seen that's that's a human need there's a psychotherapist here in California

a psychotherapist here in California called Eve yes absolutely yeah I know it

called Eve yes absolutely yeah I know it is

was in the same train probably or quite likely on the same train to Auschwitz

likely on the same train to Auschwitz that my grandparents were along with her

that my grandparents were along with her family

family she's in her 90s now she describes

she's in her 90s now she describes because they came from the same town in

because they came from the same town in southern Slovakia Northern Hungary

southern Slovakia Northern Hungary her parents were killed in Auschwitz as

her parents were killed in Auschwitz as we were grandparents Edith

we were grandparents Edith describes in one of her books that she

describes in one of her books that she goes back to the Burghoff which is in

goes back to the Burghoff which is in the burway in Alps where Hitler lived to

the burway in Alps where Hitler lived to forgive Hitler wow

forgive Hitler wow which is not to say to make it okay what

which is not to say to make it okay what he did

he did but to release him from the cage that

but to release him from the cage that she kept inside her own heart because

she kept inside her own heart because that limited her so the Forgiveness

that limited her so the Forgiveness wasn't it's okay what you did the

wasn't it's okay what you did the forgiveness was I was gonna hold this

forgiveness was I was gonna hold this hatred in this resentment in me anymore

hatred in this resentment in me anymore because this limiting me

because this limiting me you know so the work really is internal

you know so the work really is internal where do you see the connections between

where do you see the connections between you talked about the

you talked about the you know the practices and the healing

you know the practices and the healing of the indigenous people Etc how much do

of the indigenous people Etc how much do you see a connection between

you see a connection between spirituality and healing and where has

spirituality and healing and where has it gone right and where does it

it gone right and where does it sometimes go wrong so first of all

sometimes go wrong so first of all spirituality is one of these words that

spirituality is one of these words that again gets thrown around yeah it gets

again gets thrown around yeah it gets thrown around the who knows what

thrown around the who knows what somebody means when they talk about it

somebody means when they talk about it yeah

yeah so we can only talk about it in terms of

so we can only talk about it in terms of what you mean by it yeah and what I mean

what you mean by it yeah and what I mean by it so yeah I I liked what you said

by it so yeah I I liked what you said that there are ancient Traditions yeah

that there are ancient Traditions yeah that Focus heavily on inner healing yeah

that Focus heavily on inner healing yeah and that I'll explain my chance the

and that I'll explain my chance the challenge I see is that often even these

challenge I see is that often even these ancient Timeless Traditions have now

ancient Timeless Traditions have now become externalized and

become externalized and institutionalized so they've lost their

institutionalized so they've lost their purity of the inner healing that's

purity of the inner healing that's required and they become commodified

required and they become commodified correct right yeah which is what will

correct right yeah which is what will happen in a material Society yeah I

happen in a material Society yeah I spend time with some indigenous people

spend time with some indigenous people earlier this year in a in a ceremony

earlier this year in a in a ceremony what I was struck by is uh the deep deep

what I was struck by is uh the deep deep deep connection with nature in fact even

deep connection with nature in fact even the connection is inadequate a word I'm

the connection is inadequate a word I'm talking about Unity

talking about Unity like they just felt so alive David blade

like they just felt so alive David blade of grass and every tree and

of grass and every tree and the mountain that overlooked our

the mountain that overlooked our ceremony and the Bison that were in the

ceremony and the Bison that were in the field

field so for me spirituality if it means

so for me spirituality if it means anything at all it means sense of

anything at all it means sense of connection to something larger which is

connection to something larger which is difficult to Define

difficult to Define and may be different for every person or

and may be different for every person or for every group but it's something

for every group but it's something Beyond The Limited

Beyond The Limited confines of both body and the egoic mind

confines of both body and the egoic mind no I think that's our nature as human

no I think that's our nature as human beings I can't prove it

beings I can't prove it but that's my sense and I think and and

but that's my sense and I think and and certainly when you talk about the

certainly when you talk about the indigenous Traditions they talk about

indigenous Traditions they talk about the medicine wheel which is

the medicine wheel which is um the quadrants involve the uh our

um the quadrants involve the uh our emotions and our physical bodies and our

emotions and our physical bodies and our social relationships and our spiritual

social relationships and our spiritual selves

selves and we have to be sort of grounded in

and we have to be sort of grounded in all four of those quadrants to be fully

all four of those quadrants to be fully whole

whole so I think there's something in that

so I think there's something in that spirituality that is really essential to

spirituality that is really essential to us what that is I think each person has

us what that is I think each person has to discover for themselves if they don't

to discover for themselves if they don't have a tradition that

have a tradition that already grounds them in it yeah yeah you

already grounds them in it yeah yeah you reminded me of my time that I spent

reminded me of my time that I spent with some groups in Hawaii and they had

with some groups in Hawaii and they had a song for the sun and the Sea and they

a song for the sun and the Sea and they had a beautiful ritual where when a

had a beautiful ritual where when a child is born the umbilical cord is

child is born the umbilical cord is placed on the earth and then they carve

placed on the earth and then they carve almost like a

almost like a a pattern There To Remind the child that

a pattern There To Remind the child that this is your connection to the Earth

this is your connection to the Earth that I always thought that was such a

that I always thought that was such a beautiful ritual I I was wondering

beautiful ritual I I was wondering whether you've seen or whether you've

whether you've seen or whether you've looked at a tool any aspects of

looked at a tool any aspects of reincarnation or past lives or trauma

reincarnation or past lives or trauma across lives or or seen any connections

across lives or or seen any connections or study in that space I've had people

or study in that space I've had people talk to me about their experiences and

talk to me about their experiences and there's a rabbi I met once who

there's a rabbi I met once who told me that in ancient times he was a

told me that in ancient times he was a priest in Egypt well it was in no way

priest in Egypt well it was in no way Luna a lunatic you know or a psychotic

Luna a lunatic you know or a psychotic he was very grounded lovely man you know

he was very grounded lovely man you know and he was convinced my mind doesn't go

and he was convinced my mind doesn't go there

there uh I've I've read something about these

uh I've I've read something about these Traditions you know the Tibetan

Traditions you know the Tibetan tradition of the Bardo and the you

tradition of the Bardo and the you probably know a lot more about it and I

probably know a lot more about it and I do but I have not personal experienced

do but I have not personal experienced it

it and my mind as I've experienced my mind

and my mind as I've experienced my mind so far

so far hasn't found a space for knowing what

hasn't found a space for knowing what that really means I understand it

that really means I understand it intellectually yes yes but I

intellectually yes yes but I I there's nothing in me resonates with

I there's nothing in me resonates with it as far as I can recognize yeah now

it as far as I can recognize yeah now maybe at some point I have some huge

maybe at some point I have some huge Awakening uh or maybe after I die

Awakening uh or maybe after I die there'll be a huge joke on me you know

there'll be a huge joke on me you know you didn't believe buddy well here it is

you didn't believe buddy well here it is but frankly right now if you ask me I'd

but frankly right now if you ask me I'd say nothing in me goes there or even

say nothing in me goes there or even wants to that's my real that's my truth

wants to that's my real that's my truth no I appreciate that yeah no no I always

no I appreciate that yeah no no I always find it fascinating for people who study

find it fascinating for people who study trauma especially when we when you as

trauma especially when we when you as you said that you know no no child

you said that you know no no child starts at a blank slate they start with

starts at a blank slate they start with a makeup to some degree and so that's

a makeup to some degree and so that's why I was intrigued but uh Dr Martin

why I was intrigued but uh Dr Martin it's been it's been so beautiful talking

it's been it's been so beautiful talking to you because uh I feel like I get to

to you because uh I feel like I get to ask you questions that

ask you questions that I wouldn't often receive the answers and

I wouldn't often receive the answers and the quality of answers the depth of

the quality of answers the depth of answers that you can provide I I see you

answers that you can provide I I see you as a true um Elder as a wise person in

as a true um Elder as a wise person in our society and I I respect you a lot

our society and I I respect you a lot for that and well thanks so much I I can

for that and well thanks so much I I can tell you quite honestly that this is not

tell you quite honestly that this is not an interview like I've ever had before

an interview like I've ever had before thank you so much no well thank you and

thank you so much no well thank you and I hope this is the first of many uh and

I hope this is the first of many uh and I want to make sure that everyone has

I want to make sure that everyone has been listening and watching I would love

been listening and watching I would love for you to order a copy right now of the

for you to order a copy right now of the myth of normal trauma illness and

myth of normal trauma illness and healing in a toxic culture we touched on

healing in a toxic culture we touched on subject matter from within the book we

subject matter from within the book we touched on ideas from within the book

touched on ideas from within the book but as you can see these are my favorite

but as you can see these are my favorite books the you know it's a it's a it's a

books the you know it's a it's a it's a real deep study book uh please go grab a

real deep study book uh please go grab a copy I could not recommend this more I

copy I could not recommend this more I will be posting from the book as I read

will be posting from the book as I read more deeply through it as well on my

more deeply through it as well on my Instagram so if you want to see my notes

Instagram so if you want to see my notes or takeaways then they'll be there as

or takeaways then they'll be there as well and please please please follow Dr

well and please please please follow Dr mate on Instagram as well we will put

mate on Instagram as well we will put the links in the show notes follow him

the links in the show notes follow him and share all the insights that you got

and share all the insights that you got from this if there's something that

from this if there's something that stood out I mean there were so many

stood out I mean there were so many beautiful descriptions of words

beautiful descriptions of words definitions Clarity between ideas that I

definitions Clarity between ideas that I think have just just words that we use

think have just just words that we use every day and we don't know what they

every day and we don't know what they mean so if something stood out to you

mean so if something stood out to you tag me and Dr Mateo on Instagram on

tag me and Dr Mateo on Instagram on Twitter on Tick Tock let us know what

Twitter on Tick Tock let us know what you've learned and what you've taken

you've learned and what you've taken away and I promise you that this will be

away and I promise you that this will be a great investment this year uh Dr Mata

a great investment this year uh Dr Mata is there anything that I haven't asked

is there anything that I haven't asked you before we ask you the final five

you before we ask you the final five which are our fast five questions uh is

which are our fast five questions uh is there anything you'd like to share that

there anything you'd like to share that I have given you an opportunity Yes to

I have given you an opportunity Yes to God I can't think of anything that you

God I can't think of anything that you ever knows I love it okay well these are

ever knows I love it okay well these are five questions that have to be answered

five questions that have to be answered in one word to one sentence maximum so

in one word to one sentence maximum so you have like a very tight like almost

you have like a very tight like almost think of like Twitter these are final

think of like Twitter these are final five the first question is what is the

five the first question is what is the best advice you've ever received on

best advice you've ever received on healing or trauma authenticity expand

healing or trauma authenticity expand I'm gonna ask you to expand because I

I'm gonna ask you to expand because I want to hear now be yourself you know

want to hear now be yourself you know um when I was a very confused young man

um when I was a very confused young man and I was acting out all over the place

and I was acting out all over the place I had an ant

I had an ant who herself as a very traumatized person

who herself as a very traumatized person she was an ostrich Survivor and she came

she was an ostrich Survivor and she came back weighing 80 pounds

back weighing 80 pounds she was an ophthalmologist

she was an ophthalmologist and she saw me being authentic and she

and she saw me being authentic and she quoted she sent me this passage from

quoted she sent me this passage from Hamlet that famous phrase unto yourself

Hamlet that famous phrase unto yourself be true and it follows his night today

be true and it follows his night today that then thou can't be false to any man

that then thou can't be false to any man so be true to yourself without going to

so be true to yourself without going to the details that Oriental mind couldn't

the details that Oriental mind couldn't be true to herself because of the nature

be true to herself because of the nature of this culture but that advice has

of this culture but that advice has always stayed with me yeah so

always stayed with me yeah so authenticity has been a major theme in

authenticity has been a major theme in my life it's amazing I love that that's

my life it's amazing I love that that's a great answer okay question number two

a great answer okay question number two what's the worst advice you've ever

what's the worst advice you've ever heard or received around troll man

heard or received around troll man healing is it okay if nothing comes up

healing is it okay if nothing comes up for me yeah if you've never had any bad

for me yeah if you've never had any bad advice that's good uh what is something

advice that's good uh what is something that you once valued that you no longer

that you once valued that you no longer value

value this is almost true

this is almost true what other people think of me yeah I'd

what other people think of me yeah I'd be lying if I said but at the same time

be lying if I said but at the same time I can do without it

I can do without it it was still there but I'm not attached

it was still there but I'm not attached to it

to it Yeah question number four how would you

Yeah question number four how would you define your current purpose in life my

define your current purpose in life my purpose is that people are free

purpose is that people are free from limitations of culture and also the

from limitations of culture and also the limitations of their own past and of

limitations of their own past and of their own minds

their own minds and also free politically so my purpose

and also free politically so my purpose is that people are free it's beautiful

is that people are free it's beautiful and Fifth and final question if you

and Fifth and final question if you could create one law that everyone in

could create one law that everyone in the world had to follow what would it be

the world had to follow what would it be one rule one rule one law one principle

one rule one rule one law one principle that everyone in the world had to follow

that everyone in the world had to follow if it was coercing and creating the

if it was coercing and creating the impression that one had to do anything

impression that one had to do anything that already would defeats his own

that already would defeats his own purpose because as soon as somebody has

purpose because as soon as somebody has to

to it's almost like just just lean forward

it's almost like just just lean forward for a minute would you yeah and put out

for a minute would you yeah and put out your hand yeah what do you do as soon as

your hand yeah what do you do as soon as I push on your hands use this so as soon

I push on your hands use this so as soon as people sense that there's a had to

as people sense that there's a had to there's gonna be resistance so I'm going

there's gonna be resistance so I'm going to decline answering that that's a great

to decline answering that that's a great answer we've never had that on the show

answer we've never had that on the show I love that answer that's a brilliant

I love that answer that's a brilliant answer that's fantastic I love I love

answer that's fantastic I love I love the way you think the myth of normal is

the way you think the myth of normal is out right now trauma illness and healing

out right now trauma illness and healing in a toxic culture Dr gabo mate uh it's

in a toxic culture Dr gabo mate uh it's been an honor thank you so much it's

been an honor thank you so much it's been so much fun and we'll do it again

been so much fun and we'll do it again absolutely thank you thank you thank you

absolutely thank you thank you thank you if you want even more videos just like

if you want even more videos just like this one make sure you subscribe and

this one make sure you subscribe and click on the boxes over here I'm also

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YouTube Transcript:The ROOT CAUSE Of Trauma & Why You FEEL LOST In Life | Dr. Gabor Maté & Jay Shetty

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The ROOT CAUSE Of Trauma & Why You FEEL LOST In Life | Dr. Gabor Maté & Jay Shetty