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Nischa Shah: They’re Lying To You About Buying a House! My 652510 Rule Built $200K Passive Income! | The Diary Of A CEO | YouTubeToText
YouTube Transcript: Nischa Shah: They’re Lying To You About Buying a House! My 652510 Rule Built $200K Passive Income!
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Video Transcript
We put a lot of pressure on people today
that as soon as they start working, they
need to get onto that property ladder.
But there's ways to build wealth that
don't require you to be in the real
estate game, including three numbers
that everyone should know when it comes
to their personal finance 65 20. Just
knowing that creates a better life for yourself.
yourself.
>> Nisha Shaw is the former high-profile
investment banker turned financial mentor
mentor
>> whose content has helped millions
rethink their relationship with money,
>> break free from crippling debt,
>> and take the first steps toward building
lasting wealth. Everything is trying to
pull you away from your money. Cost of
living going up, prices going up,
fighting against marketing to keep your
money in your pocket.
>> You earned this.
>> So, it's becoming harder and harder. And
I've gone through this. I followed
society's version of money until I
realized that if I continue living this
way, the freedom, the choice, the
options that I want aren't going to exist.
exist.
Um, hold on, give me a second.
And I felt really trapped at times, but
I don't know how to escape. And I know a
lot of people are probably hearing this
and thinking I'm also in that place. And
so I really feel like my purpose is to
help as many people to go from feeling
trapped to freeing themselves and using
money to do that.
Wasn't expecting that.
Okay. So people are hungry for easy
money tips and these stay the same
regardless of how much you earn. So we
could talk about the peace of mind fund
and doing that puts you ahead of 59% of
Americans. Then there's building your
emergency buffer and this does more for
your emotional well-being than earning
over 200k. But with the way cost of
living is going, you cannot save your
way to retirement. So this is when you
want to move on to investing. That is
the easiest way to make money. And my
principle with investing is very very
simple and it's just
>> listen to my regular listeners, I know
you don't like it when I ask you to
subscribe at the start of these
conversations. I don't like saying I
don't like it being in there. None of us
like it. It's frustrating. Do you know
what's also frustrating? It's also
frustrating when I go into the back end
of a YouTube channel and I see that 56%
of you that listen frequently to this
podcast haven't yet subscribed. And so
many of you don't even know that you
haven't subscribed because I see in the
comment section you say to me, you go,
"I didn't even realize I didn't
subscribe." And that actually fuels the
show. It's basically like you're making
a donation to the show. So that's why I
ask all the time because it enables us
to build and build and build and build
and we're going for the long term here.
So all I'd ask you is if you've seen the
show before and you like it, help me
help my team here. Hit the subscribe
button and we'll continue to build this
show for you. That's my promise. Thank
you to all of you guys that do
subscribe. Means the world to me. Let's
Misha Sha with your YouTube channel
which has accumulated almost 2 million
subscribers in a incredibly short period
of time. What is the goal? What is the
mission that you're on? What is it
you're trying to do?
Money touches almost every part of our
life and impacts so many choices from
where we choose to live, uh what we
choose to do for a living, what our
weekends even look like. So my mission
is really simple. It's take the
complicated financial jargon and turn it
into easy, practical, actionable money
tips that anyone can implement and understand.
understand.
>> And what kinds of people and what kinds
of financial situations? Because
obviously we've got millionaires on one
end and then we've got people like me at
18 years old that are struggling to even
get a couple of quid together to feed myself.
myself.
>> The principles of money stay the same
regardless of how much you earn. And
although my mission is to help make
money more accessible, the principles,
the underlying thinking, the mindset can
be applied whether you're making 50,000,
500,000 or more.
>> And we don't really learn about money.
>> We don't.
>> We don't. Nobody in school was teaching
me about money. My parents didn't teach
me about money growing up either. So
someone like you who can simplify some
of these big complicated words or terms
or strategies I think is um is of the
moment but also more needed now than
ever because people are complaining
about cost of living crises and prices
going up and inflation and all these
kinds of things. Is that is that what
you're seeing?
>> Absolutely. And at the same time, it's
becoming harder and harder to save our
hard-earned money
>> because everything,
whether it's marketing, whether it's
needs going up, everything is trying to
pull you away from your money.
>> And who are you?
>> I'm a qualified accountant. So I I
studied finance at university initially,
then I qualified as a chartered
accountant, and then I spent nine years
in banking. And do you do you think your
sort of psychological or emotional or I
don't know trauma response to money
plays a role in our relationship with money?
money?
>> Absolutely. We definitely all have our
unique relationship with money. And a
lot of it comes from our upbringing.
It's like an invisible backpack that we
carry that we don't even realize that
we're carrying it. And it could be fed
through us through what we've
experienced firsthand or whether we've
just been on a a fly on a wall. Hearing
a conversation between our parents
>> and what might feel invisible at the
time has such a big impact on the way
you see money, how you use it, how you
earn it, grow it, spend it, save it, everything.
everything.
>> But that said, you can understand what
to do to start making it and turning it
into your favor.
>> What was your relationship like with
money when you went to university? I
didn't understand what money meant to
me. So I followed society's version of
money. So I bought all the things to
make me look better. All the things to
make my lifestyle look better. And I did
that after graduating for years and
years and years. That was the path that
I followed for a very long time until I
realized that if I continue living this
way and spending my money this way, the
freedom, the choice, the options I'm
have or that I want aren't going to exist.
exist.
>> Was there like a catalyst moment where
you realized that or was it just an
accumulated feeling?
>> So for a long time I believed in this
blueprint. Go to school, get a job,
climb the ladder and security will
follow. And I did that to the tea for
almost a decade,
>> nine years in banking. And I'll say I
was about halfway into my career where I was
was
we me I met this amazing woman. She was
basically my mentor. And we were working
on multi-billion dollar transactions
late into the nights for weeks in a row
at times. And we were in the middle of
one of the largest deals that we've
done. And overnight she lost her job.
Overnight she was made redundant and the
very next day I was asked to replace her.
her.
And I remember thinking at the time that
this person believed in financial
security. This person believed in the
blueprint and it was taken from her. And
now I'm in her shoes. What's to say that
the same won't happen to me? And that
was the first time I saw a crack in the
system and I realized
if you give someone else the power to
feed you, you're also giving them the
power to starve you. And that's when I
really understood, okay, I need to learn
about money. I need to stop spending it
in the way that I'm spending it. I need
to stop having this mindset around money
because what it's done right now is it's
kind of trapped me. So what I did is
took it took the power back in my own
hands. did everything I needed to learn
how to save, spend, invest, budget. And
it came very easily to me because I was
in banking. That was it was financial
lingo and I could simplify it very very
easily for me. And that's really where
my mindset or my change in thinking
around money changed. And that's the
same moment where I started my YouTube channel.
channel.
>> Oh, okay.
>> That was it.
>> Cuz a lot of people bury their heads in
the sand. I was looking at some stats
earlier on that said the vast majority
of people just have this sort of
avoidant relationship with their
financial situation, with financial
literacy, with their bills, with their
bank statements. I mean, there's like
long-standing jokes from the internet that
that
>> people just don't open their banking
apps. They just don't look at it.
>> Yeah. Yeah. There's there's even a
terminology for this and it's called the
uh ostrich effect and it's a cognitive
bias that explains people will avoid
looking at negative financial
information because of the fear of how
it makes them feel. It's the same reason
why we don't check our bank account
after a night out or we don't open
there's a a pile of bills on our table
and we don't check them.
But it's that thing avoiding it thinking
that oh it's just going to disappear if
I don't look at it. It's that thing that
keeps you stuck. It's that thing that
makes you realize I don't even know
which direction I'm going. It's a
disorganized finances. Yeah.
>> So someone's listening to this right now
and they resonate with this idea of
they're slightly avoidant. They don't
really have a plan. and they're kind of
just they get paid, they they they
answer their bills, and then they wait
till the next payday. They're not being
intentional with their money. Is there a
step one in taking back control?
>> The very first thing number one that I
would say to do is build a peace of mind fund.
fund.
>> A peace of mind fund.
>> This is not about maths. It's not the
mathematically optimal thing to do, but
it is the psychological because as we've
discussed, money is as much about
emotions as is it as as it is about numbers.
numbers.
So, what I'll say is go through the last
30 days of your bank statements and
calculate exactly how much it costs for
one month of your living. So, mortgage,
rent, utilities, bills, minimum debt
payments, car payments, whatever that
total is, that's the amount that you
want to saved up for your peace of mind fund.
fund.
>> Okay. So, I go through my last uh 30
days of my bills. I find out that it's
cost me, let's say, $1,000.
>> Okay. That's one month of your core
living expenses.
>> Yeah. So, I need to save $1,000.
>> You don't need to invest it. You don't
need to save it. You don't need to It's
not for a holiday. The reason why you
want to save this is because when life
does what it does best, which is throw
curve balls, you want to make sure that
you have it handled. If a boiler broke,
breaks, your car dies on a Monday
morning, the last thing you want on top
of the stress of dealing with that thing
is the financial stress of how you're
going to pay for it.
>> That's what this thing covers. It tells
you, I've got peace of mind. Whatever
life throws at me, I can handle it. And
saving that one month of living costs
puts you ahead of 59% of Americans and
30% of people living in the UK. 59% of
Americans unfortunately can't pay for a
$1,000 expense.
And 30% of people in the UK can't cover
one month of their living expenses if
something happened.
>> What is what is step two in that regard?
>> Step two, this is where we do move into
the mathematical optimal thing. This is
you cut the financial bleeding. >> Okay.
>> Okay.
>> And what I mean by that is I get so so
many times people ask me, Nisha, I have
4,000 5,000 sitting in my bank account.
What should I do with it? And my first
question back to them is, do you have
any high interest rate debt? Because if
you have savings of $2,000 earning 4%,
but you also have credit card debt at
20%. You're leaking money more than
you're making it. It's like pouring
water into a bucket with holes in it and
wondering why it's not going to fill up.
>> So, what you want to do is you want to
take all of your debt that you have,
rank it from highest to lowest
>> in terms of interest,
>> in terms of interest rate, and then
everything above 8%. You you want to
make minimum payments across everything
first. And then everything above 8%, you
want to throw your extra savings into
the highest interest rate first, the
debt with the highest interest rate, and
then move down in that order.
>> And interest rate, is that paid monthly
or yearly?
>> It's paid monthly.
>> It's paid monthly. So, if I have a
£1,000 loan on a credit card and the
interest rate is 10%. I'm paying >> £100
>> £100
>> paid monthly over the year they're going
to pay 100. Okay.
>> But that's split out into monthly
payments assuming that they're not
drawing down more on that credit card.
>> And are you against credit cards?
>> Credit cards are good if you're using
them the right way. Really good if
you're using them in the right way. And
that means the points that you're using,
the rewards that you get for it, the
bonuses that you get from it, all really
helpful. only if you're paying them off
in full every single month. If you're
not using that or if you're not doing it
in that way, which is kind of what they
want you to do because they want you to
miss these payments because that's how
credit card companies make money by your
missed payments. If you're not doing
that, then the benefits just don't weigh up.
up. >> Okay?
>> Okay?
>> It doesn't make sense. Use credit cards,
but use it in a way that stacks up in
your favor, not in the credit card
company's favor.
>> It's almost paradoxical that you'd use a
credit card, but only if you can afford
to use a credit card.
Yeah, that's exact. Yeah, you got to you
got to think about it. Can I can I pay
for this thing outright in cash?
>> If I can, then I can ship put it on my
credit card.
>> And that's the the anomaly is property.
If you're using it to make money,
healthare, education, but for anything
else, unless it's making you money,
yeah, you that's the way you want to
think about it because it does encourage
extra spending otherwise.
>> Okay. So, I'm going to pay off my high
interest debts first with any spare cash
that I have. >> Yeah.
>> Yeah.
>> What's number three? Number three is
build your emergency buffer. >> Okay,
>> Okay,
>> so this this is your core living
expenses that we've already calculated
in step one. And you want to times that
by three if you are single, you have um
predictable income. >> Mhm.
>> Mhm.
>> Or you want to times it by six if you
are head of household, you have a
mortgage, you have unpredictable income.
That's your emergency cushion and it
protects you from the bigger life
things. It's a very It's the third thing
you want to do. It's protects you if you
lose your job, if you have a health
scare, if there are dependents that you
need to care for. This kind of buys you
that time. But there's really
interesting research from Vanguard that
actually showed saving 3 to six months
of your living expenses
does more for your emotional well-being
than earning over 200k.
>> So, just the peace of mind again,
>> it's that breathing room. Yeah. 3 to 6
months of breathing room in your bank
account. It just moves the needle. It's
the peace of mind. It's the security.
It's the stability.
One of the core human needs. And it's
interesting because we we're kind of
looking at making more money and earning
more. And we're chasing the next number.
And actually, the thing that's going to
have the biggest impact or move the
needle on our financial well-being is
at this stage having that 3 to six
months of living expenses saved up.
>> It's all relative, right, at the end of
the day. So if and it's it's incredibly
stressful and I've been there when you
don't know if you can pay this month's
rent if you don't know if you can feed
yourself. Um but also the sort of un
back of the mind knowledge that if
something were to happen you'd be
screwed. It's incredibly stressful way
to live and you might not even realize
the stress consciously but you might
just feel it. It might just be an angst
in your life.
>> Yeah. And I I this applies at any income
level. Even people earning six figures
who are living paycheck to paycheck
>> who don't have that emergency buffer in
place. They have that anxiety. And also
that same report showed that having that
3 to six months with the the people that
they surveyed their productivity at work
was better just from knowing that they
didn't have that financial stress. I
know millionaires, people that have a
lot of money that are in a similar
position in the sense of they are
stressed and anxious because their
overheads are also in the millions every
month and there's a lot of money coming
in but there's a lot of money going out.
So they're still sometimes just one or
two months away from being at zero. >> Yeah.
>> Yeah.
>> Um it's a different type of stress
because their sort of subjective
experience and lifestyle is better on a
dayto-day. But it's interesting that
it's it's really relative to your your outgoings.
outgoings. >> Exactly.
>> Exactly.
>> What's the what's the fourth point then?
So, I've got so far I've got have a
peace of mind fund um which is one
month's expenses. Number two is pay off
high interest rate debt. Number three is
build an emergency fund which is three
times your monthly expenses if you're
single and six times if you're in a
relationship and and there's people
depending on you.
>> Yeah, most people actually stay here. >> Okay.
>> Okay.
>> A lot of people just save save. And I
just want to before we move on to step
four, I want to say that if you're
saving, you only want to save for one of
two things. the emergency fund and the
piece of fund mage fund that we spoke
about. And the second thing is for any
goals that you have in the next five
years, whether that's a house deposit,
car pay, car deposit. Other than that,
you don't want to be saving that money.
It's going to be
the value is going to be eaten away
quicker with inflation if you're just
keeping it saved in a bank account. So
that's when you want to move on to step
four and that is investing.
>> Okay? So you don't want to save, you
don't want to oversave.
>> You don't want to oversave. know when to
stop saving and start investing.
>> And when does one start investing and
stop saving?
>> After they've saved the three to six
months of the living expenses. Okay,
that's the third step. At that point,
once they've done step one to three,
this is the point. And the reason why I
say this, Stephen, is because if you
start investing before you've got from
steps one to three and you don't have
your savings set aside and the market
goes down and you have an emergency,
you're going to have to pull that money
out at a loss.
>> Yeah. or you're going to have to go into
debt, which is why that was step two,
cut the financial bleeding.
>> So, it's really important to have steps
one to three done before you even think
about investing. >> Okay?
>> Okay?
>> Those 3 to six months, it's your core
living expenses. So, it's forget all
your spending on the things that you
love or the things that make make life
good. It's just the things that you need
to absolutely survive because if you do
job lose your job, you're not going to
be out partying and spending loads of
money. You're going to think, okay, how
do I pay my bills for the next 3 months?
How do I survive for the next month?
That's the thing that's going to cover
that off.
>> Okay. Right. >> Yeah.
>> Yeah.
>> So, it's not like the season ticket at
Manchester United or the Louis Vuitton
jackets. It's
>> No. No.
>> It's just your your your heating, your
bills, your food, survival. >> Yeah.
>> Yeah.
>> So, number four is investing.
>> Number four is investing. For a while,
we've heard of the phrase save for retirement.
retirement. >> Yeah.
>> Yeah.
>> Saving for retirement. You cannot save
your way to retirement with the way cost
of living is going, with the way
inflation is going, with the price
retirement is going to cost by the time
you get there. Saving is just not
enough. You have to be investing your
money. And there are two main ways that
you can invest. But before I even say
that, most people know that they should
be investing, but they don't do it. They
say, "I'll do it tomorrow or next week
or next year
>> or when I'm rich
>> or when I'm rich." And then by the time
they do start, they've missed out on the
most powerful lever that they had going
for them, which is time. That is one of
the most important things when it comes
to investing
because of the way when you start
investing with small recurring amounts,
it just compounds over time. So early
often when it comes to investing,
there's two avenues to invest through.
The first is through your employer
sponsored retirement account
>> and the second is through your own individual
individual
uh tax advantaged account.
>> What are those two things?
>> The first is done through your employer.
So what they do is they invest on behalf
of you. In the UK, you're automatically
enrolled into it. In the US, you'll have
to check check with your HR and get
yourself enrolled into it. And what this
does is your company before you it pays
you or puts money into your bank
account. It takes a small percentage you
could decide how much and it puts it
towards investments
for you on behalf of you pre-tax. So
you're not paying tax on that amount.
You're putting into an investment
account and then that money is
compounding for you pre-tax.
>> Do all employees do this?
>> Most employers do it. Not all employers
do it. And some employers have a match
which means if you put some money in,
they will also match that amount that
you're putting in. So, how do I know if
my employee does this?
>> Check with your HR.
>> And is there a cap?
>> There is a cap to how much they will match.
match. >> Yeah.
>> Yeah.
>> Um, so say if they match up to 3%, then
you want to put in the 3%. But then you
could keep going, but at this stage, you
don't even need to go over the match at
this point of the the steps. You just
want to put in enough to meet that match
because you're getting the tax benefit
and then you're also getting free money
from your sponsored plan on top of that.
You don't want to leave that on the table.
table.
>> And when can I pull that money out? when
you retire at retirement. So, this is
for your retirement. You're looking
after your future self. It's today's you
planting seeds for future you. That's
what this is about.
>> What about people that say, "Listen,
retirement's a long way away." >> Yeah.
>> Yeah.
>> You know, I'm going to be what, 65, 75.
It's just a long way away. I want to
live a good I want to live it up now,
>> I don't want to be putting money in a
box that I can't open for 50 years.
>> And you want to spend the money now to
live the good life.
I the most important thing when it comes
to money is understanding what you want
and then making sure your money backs
those decisions. And I say this because
when I was in the graduate scheme, there
were two very different people who
worked in my team. And the first person
who sat opposite me on the bank of seats
in front of me, he used to come in in
his Ferrari and he on Monday morning
when we were talking about what we did
over our weekend, what we did on the
weekend, he would talk about the
Michelin star restaurants he tried, the
last minute trip to Italy and his
computer screen was the next car that he
wanted. And on my left was Phil, who
later become my mentor. And he came in
with his pack lunch. He wore the same
shirt tie combo that I could probably
remember it and sketch it from memory.
And he had his holidays, he had his
vacations, but he was a lot more
selective about them.
And I didn't see it at the time, but now
it's so clear to me that they were
chasing very different things. The
person opposite of me, he was chasing
this good life, the stories, the status,
the memories, and that was important to
him, and he went for it. But Phil, and I
visited him just before I came to LA,
him, his wife, um, his two kids, dogs in
their countryside home, and he was
enjoying the retired life. He was
loving life. He bought what he wanted,
which was early retirement, freedom,
time, choice.
Neither path is wrong, but both paths,
both people required taking a series of trade-offs.
trade-offs.
>> Both had to make some sacrifices. And I
think that's the thing that people miss.
Sometimes it's so easy to say yes to the
thing right in front of you because the
benefit is there. The benefit is
immediate. You don't realize what you're
going to miss out on later on in life.
>> So the guy that was sat opposite you
with the Ferrari, what was the
trade-offs he was making?
>> He was probably going to be end up
working for the until he had retirement
money to spend. He was going to spend
his life at banking, but he was going to
live it big, but he wouldn't have the
freedom, the choice, the time because
his spending and his income matched each other.
other.
>> And so what I want to just say is for
anyone saying, "Oh, I just want to live
it big. I want to enjoy the money." Find
out what is the thing that's most
important to you. And make sure your
your money choices stack that decision
because the wrong choice isn't choosing
the wrong path. It's just not knowing
that you even had a choice in this whole
thing. Do you think the guy that's sat
opposite you with the Ferrari was in any
way insecure? Was there an element of
seeking validation?
>> There might have been. Yeah, there might
have been. That's that that might been
what made him happy. But I think it's
also not having the self-awareness to if
that made him happy, then by all means.
But if it didn't make him happy, and a
lot of people do that do this, me
included. I've I've gone through this.
I've done it. When you don't know what
makes you happy, you end up just doing
things that gets you that external
validation. And for some people, it
might mean, okay, you know what? I
actually do enjoy this new car. It does
bring me happiness. But for others, it
might just be a facade. And later on,
they later on in life, they just
realized that actually no one really
cared. The only person who cared was me.
And although I did it for other people,
it's uh now I realize that all the
trade-offs I had to make as a result of
it. Because happiness and external
validation, they're like cousins. >> Yeah.
>> Yeah.
>> But they're not the same guy. Do you
know what I mean? They're like they look
they're kind of like of the same family,
but one of them's they're like
dysfunctional sibling,
>> but they kind of look the same. You
know, you look at that guy in his in his
Ferrari, you go, "Oh, must be happy."
>> And he comes in and he's probably got a
smile on his face because he's talking
about his Ferrari.
>> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That's what he's built
himself on, I guess.
>> But I don't know if that's happiness.
You know, the guy without the Ferrari
might be.
>> I think universally most people what
they want is
the freedom and the choice and the time.
I think more people are after that and
that can make more people happier than
any status symbol
>> because when you do end up going down
the route of buying something to make
your make you happy, you're on a hedonic
treadmill. you're then buying the next
thing and the next thing and the next
thing and you get those spikes of
happiness. There never is really long
lasting fulfilling happiness.
>> So investing strategy number one is
asking your employer about their
investment scheme.
>> Finding out if your employer has yeah an
retirement plan and making sure that
you're invested into it enough to cover
the match that they offer.
>> What's strategy number two?
>> The strategy number two is your own
individual tax advantaged investment
account. This is ISA in the UK and this
is where you put your own money after
tax into an investment account and then
the money grows over time taxfree. So
when you pull it out at the end you
could with um the UK you could pull it
out in 5 years and 10 years or in
retirement then you could withdraw that
money taxree. So both of them have
taxable advantages. One is when you put
the money in, you're getting the tax
advantages. The other one's when you
draw the money out, but they both have
tax advantages. And so you're putting
the money in and it's growing taxfree.
That's really a big deal. That's huge.
That's that's money that's compounding
for you and you're not paying tax on that.
that.
>> But there's a limit.
>> There's a limit uh annually it's 20,000. But
But
>> in the UK and the US,
>> it changes um year. at the moment I
believe at $7,000 but with a quick
Google search you could stay on top of
whatever the current limit is for the
account or the taxable advantage account
that you're investing in.
>> So I get paid I put it into my in the UK
it's called an ISA. >> Yeah.
>> Yeah.
>> And the the limit is 20k. So if I put
20k in let's say >> Yeah.
>> Yeah.
>> If it goes to a 100k because the
investments go really well is the whole
100k taxree.
>> Yeah. You're not paying capital gains
tax. You're not paying interest. I mean
sorry dividends tax. So pretty much
that's the first place everyone should
really be investing if they want an
alternative to investing in their pension.
pension.
>> Yeah, that's the first thing you want to
cap out because of the taxable benefits
that come with it.
>> Is it called a Roth IRA in the US?
>> That's right.
>> So it's max contribution is $7,000 to
$8,000 a year if you're 50 or older.
>> Yeah. The specific amounts depending on
>> who you are. Standard employee
contribution limit of $23,000. Interesting.
Interesting.
>> Whereas in UK it's just a flat
20,000 is the current.
>> And with my ISA, this taxfree ISA that
everyone is eligible to invest in, do I
then have to pick the things it invests in?
in? >> Yes.
>> Yes. >> Okay.
>> Okay.
>> This is the next Oh, we could talk about
this now actually. Yeah. So, when you
are deciding what to invest in, this is
with the employer sponsored account, the
employee sponsored retirement account,
you actually just choose what risk
profile you have and it will do that
investing for you. So you'll say I'm I
feel really risky or I'm not very risky
at all. Yeah.
>> And it does it for you
>> and it does it will invest on behalf of you.
you. >> Yeah.
>> Yeah.
>> And so most people don't even realize
that they're investing but they are
investing through their company if they
have that employer sponsor plan.
>> Then the individual account is you doing
the investing yourself. You're picking
what to invest in. >> Yeah.
>> Yeah.
>> And what shall I invest in?
>> My principle with investing is very very
simple and it's just keep it keep it
simple and do it for the long term. So I
say index funds and target date
retirement funds is what you want to
invest in.
>> What's that?
>> An index fund. Let's put it out. An
index, think of it as a list of
companies. So the S&P 500 is a list of
the largest the top 500 companies to
keep this really simple. Footsie 100 is
the top 100 companies in the on the
London Stock Exchange. The fund is a pot
of money that invests in the companies
on that list.
So by investing in an S&P 500, you've
invested in a small piece of the top 500
companies in the US. That's what an
index fund is. And so even if one
company goes down, you're diversified.
And so there'll be another company that
will and the other companies will bring
it back up again.
>> And what kind of performance can I
expect from investing in the S&P 500?
Historically speaking, um the long-term
average has been 8 to 10% per year
depending on the years and the time
frame that you're looking at. That is
different to a one-year holding period.
It could go up, it could go down, you
just don't know. So, the longer you
invest for, the chances of you getting
that 8 to 10% on average increase.
>> Is 8 to 10% going to make me rich
though, Nisha?
>> How long are you doing it for?
>> You tell me. If you have a lumpsum
amount that you're like, "Okay, you know
what? I have 2,000 that I want to
invest. What should I do with it and
it's taking me five years to invest this?"
this?"
I would say 1,900 of that. Don't invest
it. 100 of it. Invest. And I'll I'll say
why I'm saying this. 100. I want you to
invest it for anyone listening. I want
you to listen. I want you to invest that
because I want you to see and feel the
emotions when you see your money go up
over time. Sure, it's going to be small.
It's not going to make you rich
investing that, but you're going to
instill that good habit early on. And
you're going to remember that because
the remaining amount, you're going to
put that towards increasing your income.
That's the first thing you're going to
do. Think of your income as a river and
your specific milestones, life
milestones, as buckets across the river.
So, you have retirement, you have your
house deposit, you have your car payment
that you're all saving up for. Those
buckets will fill up faster the quicker
and wider that river is. That is your
income that's coming through. If you
don't have much of an income coming
through, those buckets are going to take
ages to fill up. That's why I say if
it's taken you a long time to save that
amount, I actually would recommend you
putting that money towards increasing
your income first before investing it.
If however you have disposable income,
you have an reoccurring amount that you
can invest monthly,
use that to your advantage. Harness the
power of long-term compounding growth
because that is the thing that is going
to make you rich. Sure, it will take 25,
30 years, but that is leverage that you
don't get through your day job. It's
your money working for you without you
having to be there. So you would suggest
if you're really at that early level to
focus on increasing your income,
investing in increasing your income.
>> Yeah, that's the first thing. If you're
figuring out, okay, I need to increase
my income. It's taking me a while to
earn this amount and I only have a lump
sum of 2,000 5,000. Focus on increasing
your income. Yeah, that's what I would say.
say.
>> And how does one focus on increasing
their income?
>> There are a couple of ways to do this.
So the easiest way to increase your
income is asking for a pay rise,
increasing your responsibility, the work
that you do, your contributions, and
saying to your boss or your manager,
this is the value that I've bought. This
is the responsibility that I've taken
on. This is what the market is paying
for a similar role, and this is why a
pay rise is fair.
>> The other option,
>> did you ever ask for a pay rise?
>> Multiple times. multiple multiple times
>> when you're in investment banking.
>> Yeah. It's one of those things where
if you don't ask, you don't get. Of
course, you'll get, but you sitting
there and thinking the hard work is
going to show without you asking for it.
It's unlikely. You're going to have to
build a case and say, "Okay, these are
the things I've done. These are the
things that we said we were going to do
or I wanted to work on in my performance
review," which is what I had. get to the
end of the performance review and these
are the things that I actually did and
this is where I went above and beyond.
>> So if I'm your boss Nisha. Yeah. If we
just replay one of those conversations
you had. >> Yeah.
>> Yeah.
>> You were sat in a performance review and
what did you say to me?
>> I would say hey Stephen. Hey,
>> 3 months ago or 6 months ago, we spoke
about um the things that I needed to do
to get promoted or to get a pay rise.
And we mentioned XY Z and I've done all
of those things here and here is the
feedback that I've got. Here is where
I've gone above and beyond. And this is
some extra things that other people or
the 360 feedback that I've done. And
that this is what it says.
Yeah. And that's when I was like, do you
think that this is the bracket that we
discussed? Do you think that's fair?
>> Research shows that women are much less
likely to ask for a pay rise and when
they do, they are less likely to get one
compared to men.
Is that kind of what you found?
>> Yeah, I've seen those facts and I think
it's really such a shame that when a
woman asks for a pay rise, it may not be
seen in the same way as when a male
counterpart asks for the payriseise. And
the factors that we can control are the
being prepared,
having the book of all the things that
you've done. But I recommend and this is
things that I done when I was in an
organization or when I felt like even I
was being paid less than my male
counterpart is speaking firstly if
there's a HR team in your department
speaking to them and asking am I online
or am I aligned to the average for my
department and for what my role is. they
can give you a really good guideline as
to whether you are underpaid or whether
you deserve a bump to be more aligned to
the general pay in in that role. And the
second thing is have an ally or have
someone in your workplace that you'd
always speak to, whether it's a mentor,
whether it's a colleague. And it's worth
always speaking to other people about
money. It's such a taboo topic. >> Yeah,
>> Yeah,
>> we hate it. We hate talking to someone
else about their salary, what they're
making, but the more financial
transparency that we encourage, the more
we can learn from each other. >> Yeah.
>> Yeah.
>> Openly ask the person next to you, hey,
this is what do you get paid? As much as
hard as that is, open up that
conversation. But the other way to
increase your income is actually through
switching jobs, switching companies.
Because there's so much research that's
been done,
and the most popular one is actually one
cited by Forbes that says
people who stay at the same company for
two years or more on average earn 50%
less over their lifetime.
And I've made a video on my salary year
by year over the last over the nine
years I spent in banking. And the
biggest pay jumps that I saw were from switching
switching companies.
companies.
So those are the the two ways that I
would actually say yeah increase your
income by asking for more by switching.
I do think one of the most effective
ways that I've seen as well is just
looking at the industry as well and
presenting a case from the industry and
people have done that to me several
times. They've over the last 10 years
they've come to me and said the industry
pay for my role and my seniority level
in this part of the world in this city
is this I'm currently on this um is can
we have a conversation about about this
to rectify it and
I can't think of an instance where I
haven't been receptive to that
especially if it's justified you know
because actually sometimes the employee
doesn't know the employee doesn't know
that they might be underpaying you um
that's a a genuine possibility I know
that sounds like crazy talk But
sometimes employees don't know because a
lot of roles that we're hiring for these
days are new roles. They're not roles
that existed 10 years ago. Even in
podcasting, like there's it's hard to
find benchmarks for what people were
paid in podcasting 10 years ago for
different roles that now exist in our
industry. So it's worth having a convers
an honest conversation. And I do think I
do think from the employer standpoint
it's worth leading with the value that
you've brought like you've said versus
blunt demands because humans are human
beings and you can turn someone's nose
up or their backup by the way in which
you deliver your message but delivering
it from an evidence-based perspective
and saying this these are kind of the
accomplishments that I've made and these
are the responsibilities I've taken on
and this is like the industry um average
and I love being here and I want to stay
here. Um so I was wondering if it'd be
possible to have a conversation about
>> my salary. I'd receive that very very well.
well.
>> And even aligning it to your company's
objectives. This is what I was doing.
Yeah. Exactly. Here is what I've done
aligned to your objectives that you're
looking for. >> Exactly.
>> Exactly.
>> And you talked about um saving for a
house as well. Is do you see buying a
house as a good investment? Because it
is it is the first thing most people do,
right? It's like the first thing we're
told as part of the like script of life.
When you get some money, save it up, get
a mortgage.
>> A lot of our view about buying or
renting or buying a house is actually
formed from what we saw our parents do
and what we saw the generation before us
do. And so even looking at my life
formed from the way my parents thought
they came to the UK as immigrants and
when they bought their first house it
was like the epitome of success.
They had this thing that they can
that represented wealth for them that
they could touch, they could see, they
could feel. It represented stability,
security. And then when we moved out of
that terrace home into another home, it
was between two stations in a catchment
area. So me and my sisters got access to
better schools. That was then their
happiness. That was then their goal and
the milestone achieved.
And for the previous generation
and still the way people see it today
when people say, "Oh, we need to build
buy a house for wealth building." It's
because a big factor of it is that it
was a forced mechanism of saving.
So when you're buying a house or paying
for a mortgage, that's not optional. You
have to pay it. You then can't then
spend that money on anything else. And
so as a result, those monthly payments
are going towards building your equity
and building this house's value. And as
a byproduct, it's building wealth for
you. So for someone listening to this,
if they're hearing this conversation,
they say, "Okay, you know what? I have I
have a goal to buy and they run the
numbers, it makes sense for them,
they're doing it for the long term."
Then I would say that's a really good
goal to have. Go for it. But I think we
put a lot of pressure on people today
that they need to buy a house and as
soon as they start working that they
need to get onto that property ladder.
So, if you're listening to this and
thinking that I don't have a goal to buy
a house, then there are also ways to
build wealth that don't require you to
be in the real estate game.
>> I think there's something psychological
about paying rent that you never see
again. That makes you think that it's a
terrible idea. >> Yeah.
>> Yeah.
>> And sometimes when you look at the
mortgage payment versus the rental
payment, you go, "Well, they're the same
and I'll end up owning this chunk of concrete,
concrete,
>> so I might as well go for the chunk of concrete."
concrete."
>> Yeah. But if you are choosing to rent
and actually there's been studies that's
done on this almost nine out of 12
regions in the UK and the same applies
for other areas in the world as well.
It's renting is or can be cheaper than
buying in that equivalent neighborhood.
And so if you are renting and you're
saving money on that difference then
you've got to be disciplined and
sensible enough to know that
you need to invest the difference.
>> What you mean? So, if your rent is 1,500
and to get that mortgage and you've
checked the mortgage payments and you've
realized that with the interest that
you're going to be paying on the
mortgage, all the other things that come
into buying a house, so the stamp duty
that you're paying, the property tax,
the repairs, the maintenance, the
insurance, if you factor in the cost of
both, and you do run the numbers and you
say, "Okay, renting is cheaper than
buying than getting a home." That
difference is what you want to be able
to invest. It's kind of a way for you to
say, "I'm creating my own forced
mechanism of saving. This is my own
version of a mortgage. I'm the man I'm
saving. I'm going to set up an
investment account and I'm going to
automate it and I'm going to put money
into it every single month." >> Mhm.
>> Mhm.
>> And that's the way you're going to build
wealth. That's just as legitimate. And
actually, I've I've went onto the
property ladder and the money that I put
in towards that flat
hasn't grown as near as much as the
money that I made through the stock market
market
>> by investing in the S&P 500.
>> So, tell me about that. So, you you
bought a property in London or somewhere
in the world
>> in North London. >> Okay.
>> Okay.
>> Um to live in. >> Okay.
>> Okay.
>> And I bought it in 2017. >> Okay.
>> Okay. >> Yeah.
>> Yeah.
and it's gone up in value I'd say about 10%.
10%. >> Okay,
>> Okay,
>> I've had about eight years. Then you
compare that to the stock market. So
sure, there's a numbers side of it where
people think, okay, I need to buy a
house to build wealth, but that's what
I'm trying to explain that actually if
you save that money and you invested it,
you might be better off financially. But
coming back to your point, yes, there's
that psychological thing of okay, do I
want to pay that money on rent or do I
want to buy? The other psychological
part of it is also
the comfort of knowing that you have
somewhere. And this is a big reason as
to why I bought. The comfort of knowing
that no matter what happens, you have
this place. It's yours. The landlord
can't serve you notice. You can do
whatever you want to the
flat within certain restrictions and
rules. And you have this piece of the
earth that belongs to you. And so that's
the psychological comfort that came from
it. Sure, we could talk about the
numbers and what investing will do and
how much you can make on that, but the
bit that often gets forgotten about is
the invisible side, which is
the peace of mind, the psychological
comfort of just owning a home.
>> So, can I ask how much did your
apartment cost in London? >> 530.
>> 530.
>> So, you spent 530k on it? Yeah.
>> Um, presumably on like a mortgage or
something at the time.
>> Yeah, it was on a mortgage. Yeah.
>> So, 530K. It's gone up 10%.
>> Yeah, it's gone up about 50k.
>> About 50k. So, it's now worth 580.
>> But if you'd put that amount of money
into the S&P 500.
>> Well, the thing with the house in a flat
is you could use the mortgage, you
wouldn't put that full amount in it
because you had the mortgage. But if you
put that deposit amount into it.
>> Yeah. The deposit amount. Yeah.
>> Yeah. The the amount that you would have
put on just a down payment. Um the stamp
duty that I would have also paid. If I
saved that amount and then put it put
that amount whatever it was and invested
that that's the comparison that I would
have made.
>> So how much was that in total that you
paid into the >> um
>> um >> property?
>> property?
>> I put about
50 I think K.
>> 50k and probably the net return on that
if it's gone up >> 10%.
>> 10%.
>> Yeah. So tank >> 55k.
>> 55k.
>> Yeah. And the S&P 500 in the same time
has delivered roughly 10 to 12% per year
on average. It has more than doubled in
value since 2017.
So you would have probably got
>> there you go.
>> Pretty incredible return on the S&P 500.
Even in the last 5 years, the S&P 500
has grown 90%.
>> Yeah, makes sense.
>> So it's almost doubled in the last 5
years alone, which which means you would
have basically doubled your money just
investing it in an index fund.
>> Are you looking at that from the lows of
the co? Yeah, it says even with the co
lows, it says so um it has more than
doubled in value since 2017 driven by
strong growth in technology despite the
co crash and 2022 pullback
>> last years.
>> Case in point that we we're we're
looking at building wealth just through
one mechanism
that feels like it's urgent and needs to
be done by everyone. But actually, if
you're looking at it purely from a
numbers and building wealth perspective,
there are other ways to do that.
>> My brother is was an investment banker.
He now works full-time um helping with
my money and helping in my my companies.
He went to LSC. He's a very smart guy.
He's always been like the buffin in the
family. He always talked to me about
this ter opportunity cost. So, when I
told him I said, I want to buy this
house in Cape Town. He was like, you
know, this is going to cost you X
millions. Um, think about the
opportunity cost. >> Yeah.
>> Yeah.
>> And he always every time I say I want to
do this, he's like, think about the
opportunity cost. And he he basically
stands in the way of it. What is
opportunity cost? And why should why
should people be thinking about this
when they're spending their money?
>> So every pound or dollar that we spend
is one less that we could use on
something else. And that is the
opportunity cost in essence.
And we often
don't think about life in terms of
opportunity costs because we only look
at the thing that is in front of us. So
your brother was telling you about how
you can make more money investing
somewhere else. But what you saw is this
one thing in front of you and you
thought no, I don't even know if I'm
going to make this money elsewhere. I
don't know if that's going to happen.
This thing is right in front of me.
>> And that's the thing with the with
opportunity cost is always a a trade-off
of what you can see and what you can't
see. But with every decision you make,
there's something else that you're
saying no to. is coming at the cost of
something else.
>> I was thinking about that as you you
were talking and just to give a bit of
color to this for people at home and a
good example of opportunity cost. So
like yesterday I bought lunch for the
team, right? And the lunch cost $100. It
was like the salad bar in in Los Angeles
cost me $100. Fine. $100, who cares? But
then when I think about the numbers you
shared earlier on, if I'd taken that
$100 and put it into the S&P 500 in 40
years, assuming I got 10% return a year,
which is like the average of the S&P,
>> that is almost $5,000.
>> So in terms of opportunity cost, buying
the team lunch for $100 has effectively
cost me in opportunity $5,000 that I
would have had um presuming that return
in 40 years from now. So that lunch
yesterday actually cost me potentially
roughly $5,000.
>> Yeah. And I guess for you it's
>> that's the last time the team get lunch.
>> But on the other side, you might have
missed out on how the team felt
>> going to that lunch and the invisible
benefits that you might have got from
that. Whether it was just the memories
at that moment in time, whether it's the motivation,
motivation,
>> whether it's the culture that you're
bringing in, that's the thing that you
might miss out on if you choose that
$5,000 in X years of time. And I guess
it's a balancing act as well. Like you
know, I was thinking about the guy you
mentioned with a Ferrari and if he were
to die today, one could argue that in
fact he played life correctly. >> Absolutely.
>> Absolutely.
>> Because he lived it. He saw it. He did it.
it.
>> And this is I think the difference you
see in people. Some people have that
long-term view where they think, "No, I
want my money when I'm 65 or 70 in my
pension fund." And other people play a
bit more short term in their life and
go, I just want to have good experiences now.
now.
And so it's hard to understand who's
right because we don't know how this
story ends, I guess.
>> Yeah. And I think there's a fine line,
but there's also a way to balance living
in the present with planning with for
the future by understanding that you are
going to allocate a specific amount of
the money that comes in towards the here
and now. And then the rest you are going
to look use towards the future you
because there's something very rewarding
about spending now. When you know the
future you has already been looked
after, it makes you want to spend it
without thinking, oh, what is this
coming at the opportunity cost of?
>> Do you think people should buy a house
if their objective is to make money or
do you think there are other
opportunities like the S&P 500, like
using your tax-free ISA? A lot of people
listening probably don't have or on
their way to building a deposit or
working their way to have the money for
a deposit. If they're putting themselves
under pressure and they think that
they're just buying a house to build
wealth, I would say actually look into
investing through that stocks and shares
ISA as a start that is taxfree. If you
haven't even started investing through
that stocks and shares is which by the
way 75%
roughly of people in the UK aren't investing.
investing.
So yeah, I would definitely say open
that up first.
>> And do you think one should split a
proportion of their investments into
different categories of risk
because you got like crypto on the one
side of it which sometimes feel like
being at roulette table and then you've
got things that are typically safe like
the S&P 500.
>> Yeah, I'm going to say with the stocks
and shares actually when you invest in
and a lot of people also want to invest
in crypto but they also want to invest
in individual stocks as well. Should I
go after the next big winning company
stock? Should I invest in this stock?
Um, what I want to say is that there's
two parts to think about the returns but
also the behavioral concepts.
How you feel when it comes to investing because
because
your one of the biggest impacts on
market performance
is your contributions but also your behavior.
behavior. So,
So,
people who invested in funds
underperformed the fund that they were in.
in.
It sounds impossible.
How can you be underperforming a fund
that you're in? But then when they
looked into it, they found that when
fear and anxiety took over, when the
market dropped, these people bought sold
bought sold. They essentially danced in
and out of the fund as a result
underperforming the fund that they were
already holding.
>> Okay. So it went when it went down, they sold.
sold.
>> Yeah. When it went down, they sold. When
they went up, they bought. And so what
you want to do is you want to invest in
something that makes you buy and hold.
Fidelity looked into the groups of
people that had invested in their funds
to see which group performed the best.
And when they looked into it, they found
one group significantly outperformed all
other groups when it came to investment
returns. And that was dead people. Dead
people outperformed the living when it
came to investment returns
because they didn't touch their
investment account. They just said it,
forget it. They didn't chase the next
company stock. They don't go after the
thing that's going to go up really
quickly and down really quickly. And
that all ties into the behavior.
You're not letting your emotions drive
the investments. And by the way, this
they found the second best performing
group were the people who forgot that
they had a fund in the first place. So
when it comes to deciding what
allocation you want your portfolio to
be, it's understanding, okay, what is
going to give you the returns, but also
what is the thing that's going to help
you stay the course even when the market
goes and drops?
What will make you feel like, okay, I
could still stay and hold my position?
That's how to decide what kind of
percentage portfolio you want for
yourself. And I've done that with my
portfolio. There's with crypto, it's
less than 2% of my overall portfolio.
I've invested the amount that I feel
like it won't make a difference if I
lose it. And if it goes to the moon,
great. And that's how when I say
somewhere here, the last thing I want to
do is encourage people before they've
even set up the financial foundations to
invest in something that can go up and
come go down when 75% of the population
isn't investing. >> Mhm.
>> Mhm.
>> And the reason why they're not investing
is because, and I keep hearing this from
time and time again from the people I
speak to, is either they're really
scared they're going to lose money or
they don't know where to start. And so
when it comes to losing money, I always
say do the foundations first, set up
your portfolio there, and then move on
to speculative assets should you want to
go down that path. I remember the first
time I invested and I I downloaded this
app and I put some money in there and
then I watched it and I was watching it
so much and it was going up and down and
up and down and like three four months
later I sold it and I didn't really make
a I think I lost a couple of a couple
hundred quid or whatever and then I
watched that same investment over the
next five, six, seven years just go to
the moon. >> Yeah,
>> Yeah,
>> it went up and I remember thinking,
I should have just kept it in
there. And then the best investment I
ever made correlates to what you were
saying because I lost my password.
>> I like lost the password to log in.
>> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
>> And so I couldn't do anything about it
anyway. And I watched it and it went
down and up and down and up and down and
up. But over 5 years it went really
really high. And so when I first started
investing in crypto and I invested in
Ethereum and now Bitcoin, my strategy
was the same. My strategy was get the
the private keys and give half of them
to one person that I trust and half of
them to the other person that I trust.
And even if I want to, I can't do
anything about it. And that's proven to
be one of my greatest returns in
investing because I just
>> I don't even know what's going on with
it. I'm not paying attention.
>> Yeah. And that's the thing, you've just
taken the motions out of the equation. >> Yeah.
>> Yeah.
>> There's no fear, greed. There's nothing
else that controls your financial
decisions other than logic.
>> I think actually on that first
investment I made when I was like must
have been in my early 20ies, I needed
the money.
>> Like I didn't have the emergency fund or
a peace of mind fund. So when it started
to go down a little bit naturally you
kind of panic. So I think in that the
second season of life where I started
investing in Ethereum and Bitcoin it
didn't really matter if I lost the
money. So it made it easier to hold my
nerves. And I think nerves are such a
huge part of investing. Um, it goes to
what you said earlier, like it's worth
taking $100 or £100 or whatever you can,
which is a really inconsequential number
of money, and putting it into some kind
of S&P 500 or even a stock just to feel
that almost to like train your
psychology and emotions of like what the
ups feel like and what the down feel like.
like.
>> Yeah, exactly.
>> So, your investment strategy, your
portfolio, you mentioned it there. >> Yeah.
>> Yeah.
>> What does it look like?
>> It's 40% funds.
>> Okay. What kind of funds? index funds,
>> S&P 500, uh I also do international
markets, so UK um so emerging developed
uh across all sectors I also do and I
keep it very very diversified S&P 500
target date retirement funds that
automatically rebalance. So target date
retirement fund for anyone who's
listening and wondering what it is, it's
essentially a fund that has different
types of investments within it. So you
could go on to a platform of your choice
that you use to invest and you could
type in target date retirement fund and
at the end of every fund will have a
year and so you want to pick the year
that is the closest to the year that you
plan to retire. So if you plan to retire
in 2050, that's the year that you will
pick. And what that fund does is it rebalances
rebalances
the percentage of different investments
changes to become more conservative as
you approach retirement.
>> So it starts to protect you a little bit more.
more. >> Exactly.
>> Exactly.
>> So it goes risk off. it kind of goes
less risky or
>> it becomes less risky because you don't
want to be investing the same when you
don't have that much time as you if
you're investing in your 20s 30s you
have enough time to ride out the stock
market waves
>> so that's 40% of your portfolio
>> that's 40% 30% is real estate
>> okay in all parts of the world
>> no just in the UK
>> just in the UK
>> yeah then I'll say about 25% I'm putting
back into my business at the moment >> okay
>> okay
>> and then the remaining is between crypto
to and cash cash and cash reserves.
>> Okay. What about investing in yourself?
Because because you know we think about
education and skills and stuff like
that. Should we be investing a small
amount of money into our selves in some capacity?
capacity?
>> 100%. I think you just don't stop
investing in yourself at any point in
time. It goes down to increasing your
income, increasing your skills,
increasing your value, which then has a
knock on effect on everything else that
you're investing into.
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code diary. You actually you made a
video um about 40 books that you've read
that improve your own financial
literacy. If there was one book that you
recommend people to read
that you think is most accessible and
will advance their financial literacy in
the most profound way that did that for
you, what book would you recommend?
>> Think and Grow Rich by Napoleon Hill.
It's not actually about financial
literacy, but it's around money mindset.
And the other book to start with when it
comes to financial literacy is also The
Richest Man in Babylon. when people
don't learn about money is because they
find it quite boring
>> and not very interesting. So, Richest
Man in Babylon does a good job in
intertwining a novel into financial
literacy concepts.
>> I've not read that book. I've heard a
lot about it though.
>> It's the underlying principles when it
comes to money don't really change much
and it's really starts at the basics
when it comes to saving and spending.
So, it's it's a good starting point. Are
there any other principles of of
building wealth that we haven't talked
about? I mean, we we haven't talked
about payday routines. Um, but I've
heard you talk at length about what we
should do when we get paid every single
month. Some of the things we've talked
about already, like uh knowing your
reference point, which is was point one, right?
right?
>> That was your piece of mind fund. I
guess knowing your reference point is
essentially just
>> understanding where your finances break
down and what buckets they fall into.
>> So I would
actually say this is really important
for anyone to know and it's the three
numbers. It's called the 65205
and it's three numbers that anyone
should know when it comes to money and
their own personal finance.
>> Okay. 65205. Okay. And the way it works
is you want to the idea of it is to take your
your
net income. This is your take-home pay
after you pay taxes, not the number on
your job description,
the number after you paid state
contribution, all other taxes. And you
want to split that into three buckets.
The fundamental, which is your core
living expenses, everything that is
essential to your living costs. mortgage
or rent, utilities, groceries, minimum
debt payments,
car payments, all of that should make up approximately 65% of your net income.
approximately 65% of your net income. >> Okay?
>> Okay? >> The 20% that's for your fund spending.
>> The 20% that's for your fund spending. These are for the pottery painting that
These are for the pottery painting that you booked last minute, the Glastonbury
you booked last minute, the Glastonbury tickets, the Pilates class. That should
tickets, the Pilates class. That should make up about 20% of your take-home pay.
make up about 20% of your take-home pay. And the remaining 15% that's for your
And the remaining 15% that's for your future you. That's today's you planting
future you. That's today's you planting seeds for tomorrow's you. And that
seeds for tomorrow's you. And that should go to savings, investments, and
should go to savings, investments, and extra debt payments. And those are three
extra debt payments. And those are three good numbers that I think everyone
good numbers that I think everyone should know and understand as a good
should know and understand as a good starting point to try and benchmark your
starting point to try and benchmark your numbers or your income against those
numbers or your income against those spending categories. I would say however
spending categories. I would say however if you are someone who's living closer
if you are someone who's living closer to paycheck to paycheck
to paycheck to paycheck >> those numbers might look slightly
>> those numbers might look slightly different and it might be that you're
different and it might be that you're you want to dial down that fund
you want to dial down that fund percentage to have enough saved over for
percentage to have enough saved over for the future you so you can continue
the future you so you can continue contributing to your savings investments
contributing to your savings investments or if you're finding that your housing
or if you're finding that your housing and mortgaging is higher than 80 90%
and mortgaging is higher than 80 90% start with when it comes to future you
start with when it comes to future you start with what you can whether it's
start with what you can whether it's saving 2% 3% % start somewhere. You just
saving 2% 3% % start somewhere. You just want to build that habit.
want to build that habit. >> And in terms of spending, should I, you
>> And in terms of spending, should I, you mentioned cars earlier and we talked
mentioned cars earlier and we talked about houses briefly. Should I be buying
about houses briefly. Should I be buying a car? Should I be leasing a car?
a car? Should I be leasing a car? >> A car is, let me just say, it's one of
>> A car is, let me just say, it's one of the two areas that most people
the two areas that most people overspend.
overspend. And it's because we don't just buy the
And it's because we don't just buy the numbers. We buy the emotions of the car.
numbers. We buy the emotions of the car. How the car might make us feel, how
How the car might make us feel, how we'll look like in the car, the family
we'll look like in the car, the family memories we'll create in the car.
memories we'll create in the car. And I know cuz I did this when I um
And I know cuz I did this when I um got my first job. The very first thing I
got my first job. The very first thing I did was upgrade my car. I went into a
did was upgrade my car. I went into a car showroom, found a car that I thought
car showroom, found a car that I thought I'd look cool in, walked out with the
I'd look cool in, walked out with the car an hour later, drove out with the
car an hour later, drove out with the car, and didn't run my numbers, didn't
car, and didn't run my numbers, didn't check if I could afford the monthly
check if I could afford the monthly payments, and for the next couple of
payments, and for the next couple of months was figuring out how I was going
months was figuring out how I was going to make the rest of my finances meet.
to make the rest of my finances meet. And car dealerships know this. So they
And car dealerships know this. So they will manipulate the monthly payments in
will manipulate the monthly payments in a way that makes you buy more car than
a way that makes you buy more car than you can afford. And if you don't
you can afford. And if you don't understand how the numbers work, this is
understand how the numbers work, this is probably one of the
probably one of the quickest ways to destroy your chance of
quickest ways to destroy your chance of building real wealth. The way I
building real wealth. The way I recommend buying a car is to buy
recommend buying a car is to buy something that's 3 to 5 years old
something that's 3 to 5 years old straight.
straight. And I say 3 to 5 years old because at
And I say 3 to 5 years old because at that point it's enough it's depreciated
that point it's enough it's depreciated enough as someone else's expense and
enough as someone else's expense and won't depreciate as much during the time
won't depreciate as much during the time that you have it. But if you are someone
that you have it. But if you are someone who is wealthy and you don't mind taking
who is wealthy and you don't mind taking that hit on the depreciation or you want
that hit on the depreciation or you want a nice car every couple of years and you
a nice car every couple of years and you want to trade it in and you don't mind
want to trade it in and you don't mind that fact that it's not the best
that fact that it's not the best financial choice then lease. That's how
financial choice then lease. That's how I think of the buy the lease situation.
I think of the buy the lease situation. Then you also want to think about how
Then you also want to think about how much can you reasonably afford as a
much can you reasonably afford as a monthly payment when it comes to um the
monthly payment when it comes to um the proportion of your income that you're
proportion of your income that you're spending towards it.
spending towards it. >> So what do you do you buy new cars or do
>> So what do you do you buy new cars or do you
you >> No, I actually at the moment it was more
>> No, I actually at the moment it was more economical for me to get a taxi
economical for me to get a taxi everywhere. So I don't have a car.
everywhere. So I don't have a car. >> So you've run the numbers and thought
>> So you've run the numbers and thought >> the amount I'm traveling away from home
>> the amount I'm traveling away from home makes more sense just to
makes more sense just to >> get a taxi an Uber every time. Yeah. I'm
>> get a taxi an Uber every time. Yeah. I'm saving on the for me and
saving on the for me and it makes sense for this point in my
it makes sense for this point in my life. It might be in 5 years, 10 years
life. It might be in 5 years, 10 years time that I want a nicer car and I don't
time that I want a nicer car and I don't want to restrain myself from having it.
want to restrain myself from having it. But for now with the numbers, I can use
But for now with the numbers, I can use that num that amount somewhere else.
that num that amount somewhere else. >> What about other things we spend money
>> What about other things we spend money on? Where are the big sort of traps in
on? Where are the big sort of traps in spending that that we haven't mentioned?
spending that that we haven't mentioned? So we talked about cars, talked about
So we talked about cars, talked about houses. What about uh iPhones and iPads
houses. What about uh iPhones and iPads and technology?
and technology? >> I think there's traps in spending in
>> I think there's traps in spending in almost everything that we do that we
almost everything that we do that we don't even see. going to a grocery shop,
don't even see. going to a grocery shop, which is a fundamental living cost for
which is a fundamental living cost for everyone. You're fighting against
everyone. You're fighting against marketing to keep your money in your
marketing to keep your money in your pocket. You walk to a shop, a grocery
pocket. You walk to a shop, a grocery store, they have the eggs, the milk, the
store, they have the eggs, the milk, the bread right at the back, which makes you
bread right at the back, which makes you walk through the the shop to get there.
walk through the the shop to get there. They have the premium products eye
They have the premium products eye level,
level, the sweets for the kids at the kids eye
the sweets for the kids at the kids eye level. So these are also areas where you
level. So these are also areas where you don't even realize that you're
don't even realize that you're overspending because there's these
overspending because there's these subliminal marketing messages around
subliminal marketing messages around you.
you. >> Mh.
>> Mh. >> So that's one area where people spend
>> So that's one area where people spend where it's just like spending on the
where it's just like spending on the necessities but not even realizing that
necessities but not even realizing that there's a way to
there's a way to um save there.
um save there. >> So what you suggest going in going into
>> So what you suggest going in going into those supermarkets with a shopping list?
those supermarkets with a shopping list? >> Yeah, I mean that's one way shop going
>> Yeah, I mean that's one way shop going into going into the going into the
into going into the going into the supermarkets with shopping list. Also
supermarkets with shopping list. Also checking if you're shopping at the
checking if you're shopping at the cheapest supermarket near you. I mean,
cheapest supermarket near you. I mean, shopping at M&S and Waitro is different
shopping at M&S and Waitro is different to shopping at Audi if that's where you
to shopping at Audi if that's where you want to save your money and you're more
want to save your money and you're more paycheck to paycheck and you're thinking
paycheck to paycheck and you're thinking about where where to save your money.
about where where to save your money. Other areas where people overspend is
Other areas where people overspend is everything now can be bought as an
everything now can be bought as an impulse buy. You could buy now pay
impulse buy. You could buy now pay later. There's Apple Pay on your phone.
later. There's Apple Pay on your phone. There's so many debt financing methods
There's so many debt financing methods that make you pay more. And so just
that make you pay more. And so just understanding
understanding running this budget, running these
running this budget, running these numbers, understanding what you actually
numbers, understanding what you actually have available to spend towards these
have available to spend towards these things is a really good way of fighting
things is a really good way of fighting against everything else that is trying
against everything else that is trying to take your money away from you.
to take your money away from you. >> What about like iPhones and iPads and
>> What about like iPhones and iPads and stuff like that? Do you think people
stuff like that? Do you think people should be getting new ones or
should be getting new ones or >> The way I think about this is the law of
>> The way I think about this is the law of diminishing returns. When you first get
diminishing returns. When you first get something, there's a really big impact
something, there's a really big impact on your happiness. When you first get
on your happiness. When you first get like an iPhone and you don't have an
like an iPhone and you don't have an iPhone, that's good. That's big. You're
iPhone, that's good. That's big. You're like walking around your iPhone, this is
like walking around your iPhone, this is pretty cool. Then with every upgrade,
pretty cool. Then with every upgrade, that diminishing return starts to
that diminishing return starts to plateau.
plateau. >> It's not as exciting. So actually
>> It's not as exciting. So actually thinking about, do I need the next
thinking about, do I need the next upgrade or is that something I could
upgrade or is that something I could pass up on? But always remembering that
pass up on? But always remembering that the first time you buy something is
the first time you buy something is worth it. The upgrades after that, the
worth it. The upgrades after that, the happiness doesn't increase as much.
happiness doesn't increase as much. And what about hair, nails,
And what about hair, nails, dying your hair, and all those kinds of
dying your hair, and all those kinds of things? Do you think people should be
things? Do you think people should be trying to sacrifice those kinds of
trying to sacrifice those kinds of things as well? Or
things as well? Or >> I'm not in this camp of trying to save
>> I'm not in this camp of trying to save money on everything. I really do believe
money on everything. I really do believe that you should have a percentage that
that you should have a percentage that you allocate towards the fun things in
you allocate towards the fun things in your life and not being restrictive
your life and not being restrictive about what it is that you love. If it is
about what it is that you love. If it is getting your nails done, getting your
getting your nails done, getting your hair done, getting a new bag, go for it.
hair done, getting a new bag, go for it. Enjoy it. as long as on the other side
Enjoy it. as long as on the other side that's not at the opportunity cost of
that's not at the opportunity cost of you in five years or you in 10 years
you in five years or you in 10 years >> because you talk about this term
>> because you talk about this term lifestyle inflation.
lifestyle inflation. >> Yeah.
>> Yeah. >> Which I've never heard before. What is
>> Which I've never heard before. What is lifestyle inflation?
lifestyle inflation? Lifestyle inflation is when as your
Lifestyle inflation is when as your income increases, your spending also
income increases, your spending also increases in a way that you think might
increases in a way that you think might be necessary, but actually they are all
be necessary, but actually they are all necessities being hidden away as just
necessities being hidden away as just upgrades and luxuries. It's essentially
upgrades and luxuries. It's essentially your spending rising at the same place
your spending rising at the same place that your income is increasing. And what
that your income is increasing. And what you want to do to counteract lifestyle
you want to do to counteract lifestyle inflation is you want to make sure that
inflation is you want to make sure that your spending increases. Sure, you want
your spending increases. Sure, you want to treat yourself. You want to reward
to treat yourself. You want to reward yourself, but not at the same pace that
yourself, but not at the same pace that your income increases. You want to make
your income increases. You want to make sure that the gap between your income
sure that the gap between your income and your spending is getting wider as
and your spending is getting wider as you earn more money, not narrower.
you earn more money, not narrower. >> What's the best way for someone to track
>> What's the best way for someone to track their money? Because there's lots of
their money? Because there's lots of figures here. Some people aren't
figures here. Some people aren't mathematically literate.
mathematically literate. >> Yeah.
>> Yeah. >> Um, many people don't want to be in
>> Um, many people don't want to be in Excel documents. Are there simple tools
Excel documents. Are there simple tools or an app that I could use to track my
or an app that I could use to track my spending and saving and income?
spending and saving and income? >> So many bank accounts nowadays have
>> So many bank accounts nowadays have categorized spending within them
categorized spending within them >> and it will tell you what you're
>> and it will tell you what you're spending and what you're spending on. So
spending and what you're spending on. So if you are someone that even me, I don't
if you are someone that even me, I don't sit every single month and
sit every single month and track every single transaction, but I do
track every single transaction, but I do have a ballpark figure in my mind based
have a ballpark figure in my mind based on my banking apps about what I'm
on my banking apps about what I'm spending and where. And the key isn't,
spending and where. And the key isn't, oh, should I be allocating this much
oh, should I be allocating this much here? I've over spent here. Oh, I spent
here? I've over spent here. Oh, I spent a little bit more on my trip than I
a little bit more on my trip than I needed to. The key is, are you saving
needed to. The key is, are you saving 10% minimum of your salary? Whatever you
10% minimum of your salary? Whatever you decide to do with everything else,
decide to do with everything else, that's up to you.
that's up to you. >> And when you think about it that way,
>> And when you think about it that way, you think of this whole budgeting,
you think of this whole budgeting, managing finances is a lot more freeing
managing finances is a lot more freeing than something that's restricting you.
than something that's restricting you. If you're someone who doesn't want to
If you're someone who doesn't want to sit in the spreadsheets, spit in the
sit in the spreadsheets, spit in the numbers, just think, what am I saving
numbers, just think, what am I saving and what am I spending? Am I sp saving
and what am I spending? Am I sp saving the right percentage? Cool. Doesn't
the right percentage? Cool. Doesn't matter how I'm allocating the rest.
matter how I'm allocating the rest. That's what I recommend for those
That's what I recommend for those people.
people. >> Oh, they're like budget trackers that
>> Oh, they're like budget trackers that are already built that I can use
are already built that I can use because, you know, my bank might tell me
because, you know, my bank might tell me how much I'm spending, but it doesn't
how much I'm spending, but it doesn't necessarily
necessarily doesn't necessarily inform me in real
doesn't necessarily inform me in real time of how much money I have left.
time of how much money I have left. >> Yeah. I mean, I have a budget tracker
>> Yeah. I mean, I have a budget tracker which actually tells you in real time.
which actually tells you in real time. It's not connected to your bank
It's not connected to your bank accounts, but when you put your numbers
accounts, but when you put your numbers into it, it will tell you what you have
into it, it will tell you what you have left to spend for the remaining of the
left to spend for the remaining of the month.
month. >> And what is that? Is that an Excel
>> And what is that? Is that an Excel document?
document? >> It is an Excel document. Yeah.
>> It is an Excel document. Yeah. >> Can I have your Excel document?
>> Can I have your Excel document? >> Yeah, sure. I
>> Yeah, sure. I >> I'll link it below so people can use it
>> I'll link it below so people can use it if they want to use it.
if they want to use it. >> What about um money and love and how
>> What about um money and love and how these two worlds collide? Because I I
these two worlds collide? Because I I was speaking to Kevin Olri recently on
was speaking to Kevin Olri recently on the show and he was telling me that one
the show and he was telling me that one of the reasons people end up in divorce
of the reasons people end up in divorce is because of financial insecurities and
is because of financial insecurities and pain and friction and arguments. Do you
pain and friction and arguments. Do you get a lot of messages from people about
get a lot of messages from people about money, love, joint bank accounts and all
money, love, joint bank accounts and all these kinds of things? I have a lot of
these kinds of things? I have a lot of questions about from people asking
questions about from people asking firstly how to
firstly how to bring up the conversation of money and
bring up the conversation of money and secondly how to manage their finances
secondly how to manage their finances with a partner in a way that keeps the
with a partner in a way that keeps the autonomy but still makes it feel like
autonomy but still makes it feel like you have a shared life.
you have a shared life. >> What are those big questions
>> What are those big questions >> when it comes to how to bring up a
>> when it comes to how to bring up a conversation? Yeah, I guess with your
conversation? Yeah, I guess with your partner. This is really important
partner. This is really important because the top two reasons why people
because the top two reasons why people argue or why couples argue is money and
argue or why couples argue is money and sex. And when it comes to money, it's
sex. And when it comes to money, it's lack of transparency, lack of openness,
lack of transparency, lack of openness, and lack of shared goals together.
and lack of shared goals together. And that's not to say, yeah, you should
And that's not to say, yeah, you should go on a first date and ask someone what
go on a first date and ask someone what their credit score or debt utilization
their credit score or debt utilization is. But it is to say having those
is. But it is to say having those conversations, asking the right
conversations, asking the right questions in a way that can help you
questions in a way that can help you understand someone else's money beliefs
understand someone else's money beliefs in a way that can
in a way that can help you create a financial life
help you create a financial life together.
together. >> So, what should I be asking my partner?
>> So, what should I be asking my partner? I'm your partner. Okay.
I'm your partner. Okay. >> What do you what do you say to me and
>> What do you what do you say to me and when do you say it?
when do you say it? >> I think there's levels of the questions
>> I think there's levels of the questions that you could ask someone. Mhm.
that you could ask someone. Mhm. >> And if you're just getting to know
>> And if you're just getting to know someone, you can ask them something
someone, you can ask them something along the lines of if you found or if
along the lines of if you found or if you won 10,000 tomorrow, how would you
you won 10,000 tomorrow, how would you spend it?
spend it? >> Lamborghini.
>> Lamborghini. >> That will tell you a lot about what they
>> That will tell you a lot about what they value. So then that that automatically
value. So then that that automatically tells you that they probably value
tells you that they probably value status.
status. >> If you say, "Oh, I'll probably save it."
>> If you say, "Oh, I'll probably save it." >> If I said Lamborghini, I'm going to rent
>> If I said Lamborghini, I'm going to rent a Lamborghini for for two months.
a Lamborghini for for two months. >> Yeah.
>> Yeah. >> What should you then do about that? You
>> What should you then do about that? You take that information and you understand
take that information and you understand this is what the person values. Yeah.
this is what the person values. Yeah. >> Because money is just a symbol for what
>> Because money is just a symbol for what the person values and if they if they
the person values and if they if they want to spend it on a Lamborghini that's
want to spend it on a Lamborghini that's not to say you should then judge the way
not to say you should then judge the way they're spending but you take that
they're spending but you take that information you understand what do you
information you understand what do you want to do with it. Is this
want to do with it. Is this way of thinking something that you want
way of thinking something that you want to have a life with?
to have a life with? >> Okay.
>> Okay. Is there is there a good answer to that
Is there is there a good answer to that question? M
question? M >> I think it comes down to understanding
>> I think it comes down to understanding because even if someone says I just want
because even if someone says I just want to save
to save >> you might think okay this is great it's
>> you might think okay this is great it's stability security but you might be
stability security but you might be someone who wants experiences you want
someone who wants experiences you want to spend on flights to take your friends
to spend on flights to take your friends and family away around the world
and family away around the world >> so it's just about understanding how
>> so it's just about understanding how your money values fit in with their
your money values fit in with their money values and are they completely in
money values and are they completely in conflict with each other or are they
conflict with each other or are they actually do they marry up and can you
actually do they marry up and can you see yourselves creating a financial life
see yourselves creating a financial life together because if someone's like oh
together because if someone's like oh I'll spend all my money on
I'll spend all my money on like status symbols and not save
like status symbols and not save anything and you're a saver, that is
anything and you're a saver, that is going to be a cause for arguments.
going to be a cause for arguments. >> Yeah. Especially if uh you get bad news
>> Yeah. Especially if uh you get bad news >> and things get tight. You know, someone
>> and things get tight. You know, someone loses their job and then when things get
loses their job and then when things get tight, you're really going to be focused
tight, you're really going to be focused on the money or you have kids and you
on the money or you have kids and you know any sort of pressure on the budget.
know any sort of pressure on the budget. >> Exactly. and like other questions and
>> Exactly. and like other questions and that those kind of questions come down
that those kind of questions come down further further down the line actually I
further further down the line actually I guess as well when it comes to financial
guess as well when it comes to financial goal setting but I guess another
goal setting but I guess another question you could ask someone is and it
question you could ask someone is and it comes back to what we spoke about at the
comes back to what we spoke about at the start of the podcast is where did your
start of the podcast is where did your beliefs about money come from
beliefs about money come from because so much of the way we think
because so much of the way we think about money is inherited through what we
about money is inherited through what we saw our parents do what we saw during
saw our parents do what we saw during our upbringings and it has an impact on
our upbringings and it has an impact on the way we are with money it might be
the way we are with money it might be that we're an impulse spender as a
that we're an impulse spender as a result of it might be that we see debt
result of it might be that we see debt in a certain way. It might be that we're
in a certain way. It might be that we're really frugal. But what that does is it
really frugal. But what that does is it opens up a conversation of empathy and
opens up a conversation of empathy and compassion rather than judgment. And
compassion rather than judgment. And that automatically can lead to more
that automatically can lead to more conversations about okay, how do you
conversations about okay, how do you view debt? How can we manage our
view debt? How can we manage our finances
finances based on your views and my views and how
based on your views and my views and how can we work together as a whole to make
can we work together as a whole to make this sustainable? And then the the next
this sustainable? And then the the next question is when it comes to family and
question is when it comes to family and kids and how you're going to manage your
kids and how you're going to manage your finances there. That's when it comes to
finances there. That's when it comes to like the third layer of questions where
like the third layer of questions where you ask asking someone what does our
you ask asking someone what does our 2year, 5year, 10 year goal look like?
2year, 5year, 10 year goal look like? And if we were to merge our finances
And if we were to merge our finances together, what would that look like?
together, what would that look like? >> Should we merge our finances together?
>> Should we merge our finances together? Nisha,
Nisha, >> my straight answer to this is no. We
>> my straight answer to this is no. We have very unique individual money
have very unique individual money personalities and habits and we are
personalities and habits and we are getting married later in life where
getting married later in life where these personalities are really set in
these personalities are really set in stone.
stone. And you know how they say opposites
And you know how they say opposites attract in a relationship. The same goes
attract in a relationship. The same goes with money. Savers typically attract
with money. Savers typically attract spenders and spenders typically attract
spenders and spenders typically attract savers.
savers. So if you have a saver saving and then a
So if you have a saver saving and then a spender who's spending the savings,
spender who's spending the savings, that's going to be a cause for arguments
that's going to be a cause for arguments regardless of if there's financial
regardless of if there's financial shortcomings. Mhm.
shortcomings. Mhm. >> So, what I recommend is having a team
>> So, what I recommend is having a team fund and then a Mi fund.
fund and then a Mi fund. Team fund is for the grown-up adult
Team fund is for the grown-up adult stuff, the joint expenses, mortgage,
stuff, the joint expenses, mortgage, rent, bills, council tax. And this isn't
rent, bills, council tax. And this isn't 50/50. You both pay into that
50/50. You both pay into that proportionate of your income. 90% of
proportionate of your income. 90% of your household income that you're
your household income that you're making. You pay 90% of the expenses.
making. You pay 90% of the expenses. You're bringing in 30% of the household
You're bringing in 30% of the household income. You're paying for 30% of the
income. You're paying for 30% of the expenses.
expenses. That's a team fund. And then you have
That's a team fund. And then you have the MI fund. And this is for your own
the MI fund. And this is for your own individual personality to stay alive.
individual personality to stay alive. Your own money habits. No one else can
Your own money habits. No one else can see the way you're spending here. If you
see the way you're spending here. If you have a match addiction, go for it. If
have a match addiction, go for it. If you want to buy that nice watch, go for
you want to buy that nice watch, go for it. You can do whatever you want. Spend
it. You can do whatever you want. Spend this money however you want. If you want
this money however you want. If you want to save it, save it. But that way,
to save it, save it. But that way, you're creating that
you're creating that unity, but also having that autonomy.
unity, but also having that autonomy. And I think this is really, really
And I think this is really, really important for both parties, women and
important for both parties, women and men, but specifically for women. They
men, but specifically for women. They want to, you want them to have their
want to, you want them to have their independent access to their finances.
independent access to their finances. And I've seen situations, I've spoken to
And I've seen situations, I've spoken to people who have merged their finances,
people who have merged their finances, and
and it's when the relationship has turned
it's when the relationship has turned sour unsafe. They haven't been able to
sour unsafe. They haven't been able to know what to do because they haven't had
know what to do because they haven't had the independent access to their money.
the independent access to their money. >> Do you think people should be getting
>> Do you think people should be getting prenups?
prenups? >> Did you get You're married, aren't you?
>> Did you get You're married, aren't you? >> I am. I think everyone has a prenup
>> I am. I think everyone has a prenup whether you know it or not.
whether you know it or not. Prenups, you could either have your
Prenups, you could either have your own customized prenup.
own customized prenup. >> Mhm. Or you could have what the state is
>> Mhm. Or you could have what the state is telling you as what's going to happen if
telling you as what's going to happen if you decide to go your separate ways.
you decide to go your separate ways. Depending on where you are, the prenup
Depending on where you are, the prenup holds different values. So some areas
holds different values. So some areas might not look beyond what the couple
might not look beyond what the couple agree and they just say, "Okay, this is
agree and they just say, "Okay, this is what the couple's agreed. this is how
what the couple's agreed. this is how the finances are going to be split or
the finances are going to be split or the assets are going to be split in the
the assets are going to be split in the UK and I'm not a divorce lawyer or
UK and I'm not a divorce lawyer or anything. I don't believe that the
anything. I don't believe that the prenup is fully legally binding.
prenup is fully legally binding. >> Mhm.
>> Mhm. >> So, it's useful to have in some
>> So, it's useful to have in some circumstances, but it's the courts will
circumstances, but it's the courts will still look past it and see what is fair
still look past it and see what is fair as a couple.
as a couple. >> This term passive income is quite a
>> This term passive income is quite a popular term.
popular term. >> What is passive income? The way I see
>> What is passive income? The way I see passive income, it's money that you do
passive income, it's money that you do not have to work
not have to work or to invest time in to make. And in all
or to invest time in to make. And in all honesty, I think the word passive income
honesty, I think the word passive income gets thrown around a lot and people
gets thrown around a lot and people forget that
forget that the things that you do see that might be
the things that you do see that might be passive income streams required a lot of
passive income streams required a lot of work upfront to start with. What are
work upfront to start with. What are some passive income ideas that you think
some passive income ideas that you think some people could pursue? Like the the
some people could pursue? Like the the average person could potentially pursue
average person could potentially pursue on top of their their 9 toive job?
on top of their their 9 toive job? >> I would go back to the easiest way for
>> I would go back to the easiest way for someone to pursue passive income is
someone to pursue passive income is through investing
through investing >> from like the S&P 500 and stuff like
>> from like the S&P 500 and stuff like that.
that. >> That is the easiest way if you want to.
>> That is the easiest way if you want to. Everything else and this is how I see
Everything else and this is how I see it. Everything else requires some level
it. Everything else requires some level of time or energy because you could
of time or energy because you could increase your income through a couple of
increase your income through a couple of avenues if that's what you're looking to
avenues if that's what you're looking to do. You can, like we spoke about, ask
do. You can, like we spoke about, ask for a pay rise at work. You can, if
for a pay rise at work. You can, if that's not available to you, set up side
that's not available to you, set up side businesses
businesses >> to increase your income. And there's two
>> to increase your income. And there's two ways to do that. There's the tapand go
ways to do that. There's the tapand go that I like to call it, and it's ways to
that I like to call it, and it's ways to increase your income that you can do
increase your income that you can do immediately. This isn't passive. This is
immediately. This isn't passive. This is things like putting a spare room on
things like putting a spare room on Airbnb or um an dog walking or Ubering.
Airbnb or um an dog walking or Ubering. They require your time. M
They require your time. M >> for money, but they are immediate. The
>> for money, but they are immediate. The downside is there is a cap to how much
downside is there is a cap to how much you could earn because it's not leaning
you could earn because it's not leaning into your unique advantages, your market
into your unique advantages, your market advantage, your unique selling points.
advantage, your unique selling points. The other side is value and skill-based
The other side is value and skill-based income. And this is where you lean into
income. And this is where you lean into your individuality, your unique selling
your individuality, your unique selling point. You tap into your skills and you
point. You tap into your skills and you create businesses around that that can
create businesses around that that can scale. The downside with that, even if
scale. The downside with that, even if it is passive, say if you want to create
it is passive, say if you want to create um content and then through that sell
um content and then through that sell products which you could then earn
products which you could then earn passively with that kind of income
passively with that kind of income stream, there's always it always takes
stream, there's always it always takes longer to make that money. And there's a
longer to make that money. And there's a time period where you are putting in
time period where you are putting in more time or even more money before you
more time or even more money before you start earning that. So when I talk about
start earning that. So when I talk about passive income, that's when I say sure,
passive income, that's when I say sure, there are avenues for passive income,
there are avenues for passive income, but the easiest one that's accessible to
but the easiest one that's accessible to everyone is investing. Everything else
everyone is investing. Everything else does require some upfront time or
does require some upfront time or energy.
energy. >> Yeah. I was we obviously we were talking
>> Yeah. I was we obviously we were talking before we started recording about
before we started recording about Standtore, which is a company I've
Standtore, which is a company I've become a co-owner in, and that business
become a co-owner in, and that business allows you to sell digital products
allows you to sell digital products online. And we did this 30-day challenge
online. And we did this 30-day challenge and I was looking through the results of
and I was looking through the results of how much money people had made and also
how much money people had made and also how much how much of a following they
how much how much of a following they had because I think digital products are
had because I think digital products are really like interesting entrepreneurial
really like interesting entrepreneurial opportunity. And there was this one, I
opportunity. And there was this one, I was going through all of them yesterday
was going through all of them yesterday over in the studio and there was like so
over in the studio and there was like so many people, but there's this one that
many people, but there's this one that stood in mind because she had a thousand
stood in mind because she had a thousand followers and she's helping women to get
followers and she's helping women to get control of binge eating and other sort
control of binge eating and other sort of eating disorders by selling like
of eating disorders by selling like digital products and information and
digital products and information and really like a community. She had like a
really like a community. She had like a thousand followers or something. And in
thousand followers or something. And in the last 30 days, she's made4 or 5,000
the last 30 days, she's made4 or 5,000 doing that. She sold like 40 like
doing that. She sold like 40 like digital products and like basically PDFs
digital products and like basically PDFs and stuff like that. I just thought this
and stuff like that. I just thought this is a massive untapped opportunity for
is a massive untapped opportunity for the vast majority of people who have
the vast majority of people who have spent 10 years, 20 years in a career and
spent 10 years, 20 years in a career and know something, have some kind of
know something, have some kind of expertise.
expertise. >> Yeah. Using what you've learning through
>> Yeah. Using what you've learning through your day job and turning it into a
your day job and turning it into a business on the side that can be
business on the side that can be scalable.
scalable. >> Mhm.
>> Mhm. >> Not necessarily through creating
>> Not necessarily through creating content, which is what I think a lot of
content, which is what I think a lot of people think that they need to do. Mhm.
people think that they need to do. Mhm. >> Yeah.
>> Yeah. >> I imagine like everybody knows something
>> I imagine like everybody knows something and there's a demand now for people to
and there's a demand now for people to buy that expertise that you know if
buy that expertise that you know if especially if you've been in the working
especially if you've been in the working world for like a couple of years.
world for like a couple of years. >> Yeah. I'd say if you want to figure out
>> Yeah. I'd say if you want to figure out what it is that that expertise is for
what it is that that expertise is for you cuz sometimes we're sitting on a
you cuz sometimes we're sitting on a mountain of knowledge but we don't even
mountain of knowledge but we don't even know it until we kind of take a step
know it until we kind of take a step back and then look to see what that
back and then look to see what that thing is. Ask your friends what is it
thing is. Ask your friends what is it that you'd come to me for advice on?
that you'd come to me for advice on? Because I know I have people in my life
Because I know I have people in my life who I go to for advice on specific areas
who I go to for advice on specific areas or if I want planning for an event, hey,
or if I want planning for an event, hey, what should I do? How should I do this?
what should I do? How should I do this? >> If I need help with Excel, hey, can you
>> If I need help with Excel, hey, can you help me with this formula? If I've got
help me with this formula? If I've got back pain,
back pain, >> just a quick message or WhatsApp to
>> just a quick message or WhatsApp to someone saying, hey, what can I do in
someone saying, hey, what can I do in this situation? Find out what are people
this situation? Find out what are people coming to you for advice on. Mhm.
coming to you for advice on. Mhm. >> That kind of will give you a signal as
>> That kind of will give you a signal as to what people want to know about you,
to what people want to know about you, what people want to learn from you, and
what people want to learn from you, and see if there's a way to turn that into
see if there's a way to turn that into an income stream.
an income stream. >> I mean, it's very much what you did.
>> I mean, it's very much what you did. >> Yeah, it is exactly what I did. It's
>> Yeah, it is exactly what I did. It's turning the finance knowledge, which at
turning the finance knowledge, which at the time my tagline was sharing
the time my tagline was sharing everything I know and I'm learning along
everything I know and I'm learning along the way to create a life that I love.
the way to create a life that I love. And it was me kind of doing it as an
And it was me kind of doing it as an online diary, sharing this is what I'm
online diary, sharing this is what I'm learning, this is what I'm doing. And
learning, this is what I'm doing. And then it ultimately ended up into
then it ultimately ended up into something that I do full-time.
something that I do full-time. >> And that's changed your life in a pretty
>> And that's changed your life in a pretty profound way.
profound way. >> I wouldn't be here if I if I didn't take
>> I wouldn't be here if I if I didn't take the bet.
the bet. >> Every single one of you watching this
>> Every single one of you watching this right now, has something to offer,
right now, has something to offer, whether it's knowledge or skills or
whether it's knowledge or skills or experience. And that means you have
experience. And that means you have value. Stand, the platform I co-own, who
value. Stand, the platform I co-own, who are one of the sponsors of this podcast,
are one of the sponsors of this podcast, turns your knowledge into a business
turns your knowledge into a business through one single click. You can sell
through one single click. You can sell digital products, coaching, communities,
digital products, coaching, communities, and you don't need any coding experience
and you don't need any coding experience either. Just the drive to start. This is
either. Just the drive to start. This is a business I really believe in. And
a business I really believe in. And already $300 million has been earned by
already $300 million has been earned by creators, coaches, and entrepreneurs
creators, coaches, and entrepreneurs just like you have the potential to be
just like you have the potential to be on Stan's store. These are people who
on Stan's store. These are people who didn't wait, who heard me saying things
didn't wait, who heard me saying things like this, and instead of
like this, and instead of procrastinating, started building, then
procrastinating, started building, then launched something, and now they're
launched something, and now they're getting paid to do it. Stan is
getting paid to do it. Stan is incredibly simple and incredibly easy,
incredibly simple and incredibly easy, and you can link it with a Shopify store
and you can link it with a Shopify store that you're already using if you want
that you're already using if you want to. I'm on it and so is my girlfriend
to. I'm on it and so is my girlfriend and many of my team. So, if you want to
and many of my team. So, if you want to join, start by launching your own
join, start by launching your own business with a free 30-day trial. Visit
business with a free 30-day trial. Visit stevenbartlet.stan.store
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Talk to me about that journey. Was it um was it faster than you expected? And was
was it faster than you expected? And was it are you in a place that is higher
it are you in a place that is higher than you expected when you started?
than you expected when you started? You've done 151 videos on YouTube.
You've done 151 videos on YouTube. >> Yeah. And is it safe to say it's made
>> Yeah. And is it safe to say it's made you millions?
you millions? >> Yeah.
>> Yeah. I would never have thought I was in the
I would never have thought I was in the place that I am now
place that I am now through sitting in my spare bedroom and
through sitting in my spare bedroom and creating videos. Monday to Friday I'll
creating videos. Monday to Friday I'll be going to work glitz and glamour
be going to work glitz and glamour meeting clients. There was a kind of
meeting clients. There was a kind of allure to it. And then the weekends I'll
allure to it. And then the weekends I'll be spend spending in my spare bedroom
be spend spending in my spare bedroom googling what's a-roll, what's B-roll,
googling what's a-roll, what's B-roll, how do I do color grading,
how do I do color grading, >> which are all terms in terms of editing
>> which are all terms in terms of editing videos.
videos. >> It's all terms of editing videos cuz
>> It's all terms of editing videos cuz that's what I was doing on my weekends
that's what I was doing on my weekends and evenings
and evenings >> while you were still at work.
>> while you were still at work. >> Yeah, I quit my day job just over two
>> Yeah, I quit my day job just over two years ago. And so for a very long time,
years ago. And so for a very long time, this was just a creative outlet for me
this was just a creative outlet for me and I loved it. I found so much
and I loved it. I found so much interest in it, but my purpose for it
interest in it, but my purpose for it really grew as the channel grew. It grew
really grew as the channel grew. It grew very quickly from 1,000 to 50,000 within
very quickly from 1,000 to 50,000 within a few days and then 100,000 within a few
a few days and then 100,000 within a few weeks of that. And as the channel grew,
weeks of that. And as the channel grew, I saw the comments that were coming in.
I saw the comments that were coming in. Hey, I've just invested in this for the
Hey, I've just invested in this for the first time because of what you've said
first time because of what you've said here or I've just asked for a pay rise
here or I've just asked for a pay rise at work because of this conversation.
at work because of this conversation. And
And when you see something like that come
when you see something like that come through, there is no amount of money
through, there is no amount of money that can be made through a day job that
that can be made through a day job that beats that. There is nothing. What was
beats that. There is nothing. What was previously external fulfillment for me
previously external fulfillment for me turned into internal fulfillment. So, it
turned into internal fulfillment. So, it has been the best thing I've done, hands
has been the best thing I've done, hands down, and it is the thing that I would
down, and it is the thing that I would continue to do, even if I wasn't making
continue to do, even if I wasn't making money from it.
money from it. >> You made one video seven months ago
>> You made one video seven months ago about
about things you stop doing to waste your
things you stop doing to waste your evenings after work. The video is
evenings after work. The video is titled, "Five things I did to stop
titled, "Five things I did to stop wasting my evenings after work."
wasting my evenings after work." >> Yeah.
>> Yeah. Because I had to be really disciplined
Because I had to be really disciplined with my time when I uh was working in
with my time when I uh was working in banking.
banking. >> So, what is it what is the essence of
>> So, what is it what is the essence of that video? Is it telling people to use
that video? Is it telling people to use their their time as an asset more
their their time as an asset more effectively? And
effectively? And >> so often we just are living in autopilot
>> so often we just are living in autopilot mode. We don't even think about the time
mode. We don't even think about the time that we're using and how we're using it.
that we're using and how we're using it. We are just coming home after work and
We are just coming home after work and turning on the TV and watching Netflix
turning on the TV and watching Netflix and sinking into the couch because we've
and sinking into the couch because we've done that the day before and the day
done that the day before and the day before and it's comfortable.
before and it's comfortable. And the essence of that video is to say
And the essence of that video is to say there there's probably more out there.
there there's probably more out there. If you're sitting there and you're in a
If you're sitting there and you're in a place where you're thinking, I don't
place where you're thinking, I don't really like my job. I don't really like
really like my job. I don't really like what I'm doing. I'm not really happy. I
what I'm doing. I'm not really happy. I want to meet new people, but I'm not
want to meet new people, but I'm not doing that. Then this video is about
doing that. Then this video is about saying, "Hey,
come out that autopilot mode that you might be in and you have hours maybe on
might be in and you have hours maybe on the weekend, maybe in the evening that
the weekend, maybe in the evening that you can use to create a better life for
you can use to create a better life for yourself."
yourself." >> It's almost like budgeting your time.
>> It's almost like budgeting your time. >> It is budgeting your time. Exactly. That
>> It is budgeting your time. Exactly. That thinking about how you can spend each
thinking about how you can spend each hour in a way that brings you closer to
hour in a way that brings you closer to the version of the life that you want. I
the version of the life that you want. I think about that a lot because
think about that a lot because ultimately our time is the center point
ultimately our time is the center point of our influence. Like it's the thing
of our influence. Like it's the thing that's going to determine our long-term
that's going to determine our long-term outcomes pretty much more than anything
outcomes pretty much more than anything else. Whether we spend it reading a book
else. Whether we spend it reading a book that's going to educate us or learn how
that's going to educate us or learn how to color grade for YouTube videos like
to color grade for YouTube videos like you did or whether we spend it, you
you did or whether we spend it, you know, watching Love Island.
know, watching Love Island. >> Yeah.
>> Yeah. >> On the TV or something like in the same
>> On the TV or something like in the same way that that $100 is going to compound
way that that $100 is going to compound at 10% a year in the S&P 500, that
at 10% a year in the S&P 500, that choice is going to compound.
choice is going to compound. >> Like so let's play that out. So instead
>> Like so let's play that out. So instead of watching Love Island, I decide to
of watching Love Island, I decide to read that book you recommended about
read that book you recommended about money. And then that means that I make a
money. And then that means that I make a series of different decisions which
series of different decisions which change the trajectory of several areas
change the trajectory of several areas of my life. I maybe stop spending as
of my life. I maybe stop spending as much. I start budgeting a little bit. I
much. I start budgeting a little bit. I go and educate myself in a new skill.
go and educate myself in a new skill. And if you zoom out on that as a graph
And if you zoom out on that as a graph over like 10, 20, 30 years, you're in an
over like 10, 20, 30 years, you're in an entirely different position because you
entirely different position because you used one hour differently 30 years ago,
used one hour differently 30 years ago, but you'll like never see the return
but you'll like never see the return because it's so compounding is so hard
because it's so compounding is so hard to see. It's invisible
to see. It's invisible >> in the moment. But
>> in the moment. But >> yeah,
>> yeah, >> I really think about this a lot. I I try
>> I really think about this a lot. I I try and remind myself on a frequent basis
and remind myself on a frequent basis that like the actual currency I'm
that like the actual currency I'm spending is these these hours that I
spending is these these hours that I have
have >> and how intentional and wellplaced and
>> and how intentional and wellplaced and aligned they are to my long-term goals
aligned they are to my long-term goals is maybe maybe the most important thing.
is maybe maybe the most important thing. >> And it's the most powerful thing that
>> And it's the most powerful thing that you have.
you have. >> Mhm.
>> Mhm. >> Exactly.
>> Exactly. >> What about your happiness? What is um
>> What about your happiness? What is um what makes you happy, Nisha?
what makes you happy, Nisha? >> The way I'm living right now, which is
>> The way I'm living right now, which is doing what I'm doing for a living is
doing what I'm doing for a living is making me extremely happy. And it's the
making me extremely happy. And it's the happiest I've been since starting a
happiest I've been since starting a career in banking.
career in banking. >> It comes back to finding a meaning in a
>> It comes back to finding a meaning in a purpose in what you're doing. And to say
purpose in what you're doing. And to say that I make money from
that I make money from helping people get better with their
helping people get better with their finances.
finances. I don't think there there's stuff and
I don't think there there's stuff and you can't get much better than that. I
you can't get much better than that. I don't think there's many jobs in life
don't think there's many jobs in life that are more rewarding than giving back
that are more rewarding than giving back in some way.
in some way. However that looks like for you through
However that looks like for you through your own skills, your own
your own skills, your own expertise, your own unique selling
expertise, your own unique selling points.
points. I can't imagine a like a better place
I can't imagine a like a better place for me myself to be in. And it's taken a
for me myself to be in. And it's taken a long time to get to that. But it's been
long time to get to that. But it's been good. It's been a it's been a journey,
good. It's been a it's been a journey, but it's it's been a good one.
but it's it's been a good one. >> AI is this, you know, the the topic of
>> AI is this, you know, the the topic of the moment because it's just impacting
the moment because it's just impacting everything. It's impacting people's
everything. It's impacting people's ability to get jobs. It's impacting how
ability to get jobs. It's impacting how I'm hiring as a employer. It's impacting
I'm hiring as a employer. It's impacting how I do my creative work and even me as
how I do my creative work and even me as a podcaster as well. I was wondering if
a podcaster as well. I was wondering if you what you're doing, how you're
you what you're doing, how you're thinking about AI.
thinking about AI. >> I'm seeing more and more people leaning
>> I'm seeing more and more people leaning into AI to get money tips and money
into AI to get money tips and money advice. Mhm.
advice. Mhm. >> And I think that's great because it's
>> And I think that's great because it's everything's at the expertise. If you're
everything's at the expertise. If you're looking at what was available 20 years
looking at what was available 20 years ago versus what was available 5 years
ago versus what was available 5 years ago versus what was available a year ago
ago versus what was available a year ago to what is available now, there's so
to what is available now, there's so much more information that is vastly
much more information that is vastly available at your fingertips for you to
available at your fingertips for you to learn financial literacy
learn financial literacy >> and be prepared for it.
>> and be prepared for it. >> The thing that I'd always ask people to
>> The thing that I'd always ask people to remember is
remember is don't forget the emotional side of money
don't forget the emotional side of money because greed, fear, that all comes into
because greed, fear, that all comes into how you're managing your finances as
how you're managing your finances as well.
well. >> Yeah. So, use AI, use it to your
>> Yeah. So, use AI, use it to your advantage. I think it's brilliant and I
advantage. I think it's brilliant and I think you always need to lean into it.
think you always need to lean into it. Um, but there's a there's the human
Um, but there's a there's the human component that can never be taken out of
component that can never be taken out of the equation, especially when it comes
the equation, especially when it comes to money and finance.
to money and finance. >> Could I not just go on like chat GPT and
>> Could I not just go on like chat GPT and ask it to be my personal accountant
ask it to be my personal accountant every month and tell it my situation,
every month and tell it my situation, tell it my goals, and then tell it to
tell it my goals, and then tell it to give me advice every every day, week,
give me advice every every day, week, month on what I should be doing. I think
month on what I should be doing. I think that would be a great starting point to
that would be a great starting point to understand what do I need to do if I'm
understand what do I need to do if I'm absolutely clueless.
absolutely clueless. That's not to say cha cha GPT is always
That's not to say cha cha GPT is always correct. Um, as you probably know,
correct. Um, as you probably know, there's some errors in it. So, take it
there's some errors in it. So, take it with a pinch of salt. But if you're
with a pinch of salt. But if you're starting from scratch, even saying,
starting from scratch, even saying, "Hey, this is my income. This is my
"Hey, this is my income. This is my spending. How do you recommend I budget?
spending. How do you recommend I budget? Give me three or four ways to consider
Give me three or four ways to consider it."
it." Yeah, that would be a a way for you to
Yeah, that would be a a way for you to take if that's a way for you to take
take if that's a way for you to take that next step, then I definitely think
that next step, then I definitely think that's a avenue to be explored.
that's a avenue to be explored. >> Jack, you were telling me um the other
>> Jack, you were telling me um the other day that you're now using AI a lot for
day that you're now using AI a lot for financial support and advice.
financial support and advice. >> Mhm.
>> Mhm. >> What are you What are you doing? Um, so
>> What are you What are you doing? Um, so I got like this prompt on on chat GPT
I got like this prompt on on chat GPT where I've I've asked it to be the
where I've I've asked it to be the world's best financial adviser for me
world's best financial adviser for me and uh I screenshotted all my bank
and uh I screenshotted all my bank statements and I every time I tell
statements and I every time I tell people this they kind of went because
people this they kind of went because it's like a lot a window into your life
it's like a lot a window into your life and I don't kind of know the GDPR or
and I don't kind of know the GDPR or whatever around it but it's been so
whatever around it but it's been so useful. So, I've screenshotted
useful. So, I've screenshotted everything on my bank statement, and
everything on my bank statement, and then it tells me how much I spend a
then it tells me how much I spend a month, how much I can put into
month, how much I can put into investments and stuff. And I also
investments and stuff. And I also screenshotted this investment account I
screenshotted this investment account I had, and it told me that I was
had, and it told me that I was overpaying on my investment account, and
overpaying on my investment account, and that I should switch to another one
that I should switch to another one because the fees were better. And then
because the fees were better. And then it was like, you
it was like, you don't have enough in savings, so you
don't have enough in savings, so you should stop investing and put your money
should stop investing and put your money into savings.
into savings. gave me a advice on a savings account to
gave me a advice on a savings account to put it into with a high interest like 4%
put it into with a high interest like 4% interest and it's actually been
interest and it's actually been gamechanging because it's kind of a base
gamechanging because it's kind of a base knowledge that I wouldn't have had an
knowledge that I wouldn't have had an understanding towards and I get very
understanding towards and I get very excited when I listen to these podcasts
excited when I listen to these podcasts cuz I sit here and they tell you like
cuz I sit here and they tell you like ones to invest in and I think it was a
ones to invest in and I think it was a particular guest we had on and she said
particular guest we had on and she said you should invest in this kind of stock
you should invest in this kind of stock and I said like oh what do you think
and I said like oh what do you think about this stock and it was just like
about this stock and it was just like don't be silly you're not this person
don't be silly you're not this person and it's just been really helpful for me
and it's just been really helpful for me to kind of understand it's it's um
to kind of understand it's it's um advice changes and adjusts.
advice changes and adjusts. >> Oh, was that Kathy Wood?
>> Oh, was that Kathy Wood? >> Yeah.
>> Yeah. >> It was it was it Tesla?
>> It was it was it Tesla? >> Yeah.
>> Yeah. >> Well, it told you to behave. It was like
>> Well, it told you to behave. It was like behave yourself.
behave yourself. >> Cuz I asked it to be brutally honest
>> Cuz I asked it to be brutally honest about all the advice it gave me. And I
about all the advice it gave me. And I was like, Kathy Wood had this advice.
was like, Kathy Wood had this advice. Tell me tell me should I put in should I
Tell me tell me should I put in should I put all my money into Tesla? And it was
put all my money into Tesla? And it was like, look, you're not Kathy Wood. Like,
like, look, you're not Kathy Wood. Like, you don't have enough. It's kind of what
you don't have enough. It's kind of what you said about um having emergency
you said about um having emergency funds. Yeah. It's like you don't have
funds. Yeah. It's like you don't have enough in your emergency funds. Top that
enough in your emergency funds. Top that up first. And that's like if you want to
up first. And that's like if you want to invest in Tesla, we'll have another pot.
invest in Tesla, we'll have another pot. So the new one I've done trading 212.
So the new one I've done trading 212. Yeah.
Yeah. >> And you can do pies. So I've got a safe
>> And you can do pies. So I've got a safe one
one >> and a not so safe one and then a high
>> and a not so safe one and then a high interest account.
interest account. >> That's really interesting, Jack, that
>> That's really interesting, Jack, that that that you've done that. And I think
that that you've done that. And I think that's that just shows the power of AI
that's that just shows the power of AI now. And there's two really interesting
now. And there's two really interesting things that I picked up on then. first
things that I picked up on then. first is that it's very tailored based on you
is that it's very tailored based on you which with AI it's probably understood
which with AI it's probably understood who you are as a person from the
who you are as a person from the information that you fed to it your risk
information that you fed to it your risk profile your amounts the bank statement
profile your amounts the bank statement had your savings and from that it
had your savings and from that it derived a profile and gave you the
derived a profile and gave you the correct information based on
correct information based on your current situation
your current situation >> and the second thing that probably
>> and the second thing that probably doesn't get mentioned in maybe podcasts
doesn't get mentioned in maybe podcasts that you've done so far, Stephen, is the
that you've done so far, Stephen, is the the savings, the putting it into a high
the savings, the putting it into a high interest savings account. It's a very
interest savings account. It's a very easy basic personal finance tips that
easy basic personal finance tips that actually do make a difference when it
actually do make a difference when it comes to habits, but also it's easy.
comes to habits, but also it's easy. That's passive income for you, but it
That's passive income for you, but it would get missed out on a lot of the
would get missed out on a lot of the advice if you're watching a specific
advice if you're watching a specific investing focused YouTube video
investing focused YouTube video >> or podcast. So, it just harnesses the
>> or podcast. So, it just harnesses the power of chat GPT. I don't know yet if
power of chat GPT. I don't know yet if or I don't know if we have any
or I don't know if we have any information about how much information
information about how much information we can actually feed into chat GPT and
we can actually feed into chat GPT and where that goes but it sounds like it's
where that goes but it sounds like it's just you've given it the underlying
just you've given it the underlying framework or this is my current
framework or this is my current situation and it's given you the correct
situation and it's given you the correct um initial guidance at least and then
um initial guidance at least and then you've been able to say okay that makes
you've been able to say okay that makes sense for me or no I'm not going to
sense for me or no I'm not going to listen to this.
listen to this. >> Yeah I think the the I keep asking it
>> Yeah I think the the I keep asking it like am I on track and it changes its
like am I on track and it changes its advice. So although it's been really
advice. So although it's been really good initially, I think I'm now with
good initially, I think I'm now with that base knowledge just going to go and
that base knowledge just going to go and sort of and everything I've learned on
sort of and everything I've learned on these podcasts as well, just kind of go
these podcasts as well, just kind of go and run with it.
and run with it. >> Yeah.
>> Yeah. >> Yeah. And that's really important thing
>> Yeah. And that's really important thing because you know there's there's so much
because you know there's there's so much information online when it comes to
information online when it comes to money that you don't actually know who
money that you don't actually know who to listen to and who to get advice from
to listen to and who to get advice from and who to trust because you could be
and who to trust because you could be scrolling through Tik Tok and the first
scrolling through Tik Tok and the first video you see is put all your money into
video you see is put all your money into Tesla or crypto or one asset or you
Tesla or crypto or one asset or you could see another one that says, "Oh,
could see another one that says, "Oh, stop buying lattes so otherwise you'll
stop buying lattes so otherwise you'll die broke." And then the next video
die broke." And then the next video might be mine and you might think, "Oh,
might be mine and you might think, "Oh, the last two people just told me BS. Why
the last two people just told me BS. Why should I listen to this person?
should I listen to this person? And so finding a person who
And so finding a person who whose principles and philosophy align
whose principles and philosophy align with your way of thinking is a way that
with your way of thinking is a way that will keep you motivated and inspired to
will keep you motivated and inspired to want to keep getting better with
want to keep getting better with finances. And so you've probably got
finances. And so you've probably got that information from chat GPT and it
that information from chat GPT and it said to you, hey, based on your profile,
said to you, hey, based on your profile, this is what's important. And you've
this is what's important. And you've kind of leaned into the leaned into that
kind of leaned into the leaned into that and thought, this is right for me.
and thought, this is right for me. Actually, this makes sense. and you've
Actually, this makes sense. and you've probably actioned it. And so it's it's a
probably actioned it. And so it's it's a um fine line between finding someone who
um fine line between finding someone who you resonate with and also understanding
you resonate with and also understanding that their principles align with yours,
that their principles align with yours, I would say to that.
I would say to that. >> And how much do you think about credit
>> And how much do you think about credit scores? Because I absolutely butchered
scores? Because I absolutely butchered my credit score before I even realized
my credit score before I even realized it existed and my credit score was in
it existed and my credit score was in the bin. I I got uh two CCJs, which are
the bin. I I got uh two CCJs, which are county court judgments, which is where
county court judgments, which is where you really up
you really up >> because I didn't know a thing about
>> because I didn't know a thing about money when I was 18, 19 years old, and
money when I was 18, 19 years old, and they gave me these credit cards and I
they gave me these credit cards and I had overdraft and defaulted and didn't
had overdraft and defaulted and didn't pay them back and went to an ATM, put it
pay them back and went to an ATM, put it in, it didn't come back out.
in, it didn't come back out. >> Yeah.
>> Yeah. >> Um and then I found out that I had
>> Um and then I found out that I had destroyed my credit rating before I knew
destroyed my credit rating before I knew what it was. And I hear this quite a lot
what it was. And I hear this quite a lot from people. They don't understand the
from people. They don't understand the importance of it or, you know,
importance of it or, you know, >> you don't realize the importance of it
>> you don't realize the importance of it until you're looking to buy something
until you're looking to buy something big.
big. >> Yeah. because that's what it impacts the
>> Yeah. because that's what it impacts the credit score. It two people can go into
credit score. It two people can go into a car showroom and choose the same car
a car showroom and choose the same car and the amount they pay for it will be
and the amount they pay for it will be completely different based on the
completely different based on the history.
history. >> Yeah.
>> Yeah. >> The credit background and so there are
>> The credit background and so there are it is something that you need to think
it is something that you need to think about. It is something that you need to
about. It is something that you need to make sure you're paying off in time in
make sure you're paying off in time in full your credit card for instance. And
full your credit card for instance. And it is definitely one of the main things
it is definitely one of the main things or one of one of the things people
or one of one of the things people should always look at and consider. And
should always look at and consider. And you can check your credit rating online
you can check your credit rating online for free.
for free. >> There are websites that do that and you
>> There are websites that do that and you can check it just make sure all of your
can check it just make sure all of your details are correct. If there's any
details are correct. If there's any anomalies, correct that. But most
anomalies, correct that. But most importantly, just make sure and it
importantly, just make sure and it really comes down to are you paying the
really comes down to are you paying the things that are outstanding on time.
things that are outstanding on time. >> I think most people, especially younger
>> I think most people, especially younger people, don't actually realize that they
people, don't actually realize that they have a credit score and that they can
have a credit score and that they can check it right now for free. And they
check it right now for free. And they also probably don't realize that things
also probably don't realize that things like being registered to vote has an
like being registered to vote has an impact on their credit rating. Cuz I
impact on their credit rating. Cuz I remember the first time I logged in to
remember the first time I logged in to check my credit score and I was like
check my credit score and I was like >> 45 and it said the reason why one of the
>> 45 and it said the reason why one of the reasons why it's low is because you
reasons why it's low is because you haven't registered to vote. I was like
haven't registered to vote. I was like what the hell?
what the hell? >> Yeah. You register to vote that that's
>> Yeah. You register to vote that that's one of the things even something like
one of the things even something like you could call up your credit card
you could call up your credit card company or your uh the company that you
company or your uh the company that you have a debt at and say hey can you
have a debt at and say hey can you increase the amount that I have
increase the amount that I have available. What that does is it reduces
available. What that does is it reduces your utilization when you're using debt.
your utilization when you're using debt. >> And by just saying, okay, you have
>> And by just saying, okay, you have instead of utilizing 50% of your credit
instead of utilizing 50% of your credit available, you're now using 20%.
available, you're now using 20%. >> What companies now see is, oh, okay,
>> What companies now see is, oh, okay, then they're being sensible, they're not
then they're being sensible, they're not really relying on this debt on their
really relying on this debt on their day-to-day living. So, there's a couple
day-to-day living. So, there's a couple of things that you can take into
of things that you can take into account, but even if you do, and again,
account, but even if you do, and again, people don't realize this, even if you
people don't realize this, even if you do have interest rates because you're
do have interest rates because you're not paying your debt off in time, you
not paying your debt off in time, you can negotiate that. You can call up the
can negotiate that. You can call up the company and say, "Okay, this is the
company and say, "Okay, this is the interest rate I'm paying, but this is
interest rate I'm paying, but this is what I have planned. This is how I plan
what I have planned. This is how I plan to pay off my debt, and I want to do it
to pay off my debt, and I want to do it over the next 12, 18 months. Can you
over the next 12, 18 months. Can you reduce or can you look at reducing my
reduce or can you look at reducing my interest rate?"
interest rate?" >> I have these personas here. There's
>> I have these personas here. There's three of them. And I was wondering,
three of them. And I was wondering, there are three different people at
there are three different people at three different stages of life. When you
three different stages of life. When you think about the advice you'd give these
think about the advice you'd give these people, does it come back to this
people, does it come back to this framework, this 65, 20, 15 framework
framework, this 65, 20, 15 framework really regardless of what stage they're
really regardless of what stage they're at?
at? >> You know what? Most things in finance do
>> You know what? Most things in finance do come back to that framework, the 65,
come back to that framework, the 65, 2015 or even a variation for it. With
2015 or even a variation for it. With Andy, he's just started his job. He's
Andy, he's just started his job. He's early on in his career. He's making less
early on in his career. He's making less now than he will in 10 years, 20 years
now than he will in 10 years, 20 years time. So it may not be that his paycheck
time. So it may not be that his paycheck allows for 65% to go towards his rent
allows for 65% to go towards his rent and his car, which is what he wants
and his car, which is what he wants something new of. It might be that it
something new of. It might be that it might be 70 or 75%. But the key is,
might be 70 or 75%. But the key is, especially at this stage, the most
especially at this stage, the most important thing that he has going for
important thing that he has going for him is time. So save, invest early, do
him is time. So save, invest early, do it recurringly, which is often, and
it recurringly, which is often, and harness the power of long-term growth is
harness the power of long-term growth is what I'll say to Andy. When it comes to
what I'll say to Andy. When it comes to the new phone, remember that there is a
the new phone, remember that there is a trade-off for every decision you're
trade-off for every decision you're making. If it's not an absolute
making. If it's not an absolute necessity or an urgency, that can be
necessity or an urgency, that can be spent and the value of that maybe
spent and the value of that maybe thousands today can be worth
thousands today can be worth significantly more in 10 years or 20
significantly more in 10 years or 20 years time.
years time. >> Mhm.
>> Mhm. >> So balance that together. Again, if
>> So balance that together. Again, if there's budget with his after he's put
there's budget with his after he's put down the money for his savings
down the money for his savings investing, if he wants to spend that on
investing, if he wants to spend that on the fund, then go ahead.
the fund, then go ahead. >> With him though, do you think his risk
>> With him though, do you think his risk appetite should be a little bit higher?
appetite should be a little bit higher? Cuz I when I look at uh Andy here, he
Cuz I when I look at uh Andy here, he looks like he's early 20s, maybe late
looks like he's early 20s, maybe late teens or something.
teens or something. >> Yeah.
>> Yeah. >> With him, I think you need to take risk.
>> With him, I think you need to take risk. You need to go work at an AI startup
You need to go work at an AI startup because he wants to fill that bucket of
because he wants to fill that bucket of knowledge with like really high
knowledge with like really high yielding, relevant skill.
yielding, relevant skill. >> Yeah.
>> Yeah. >> So, I don't know. I think of him. I go,
>> So, I don't know. I think of him. I go, "Bro, roll the dice. You got nothing to
"Bro, roll the dice. You got nothing to lose. You ain't got a mortgage yet. You
lose. You ain't got a mortgage yet. You ain't got kids."
ain't got kids." >> In your 20s, you can play the long-term
>> In your 20s, you can play the long-term game. Absolutely. Everything feels like
game. Absolutely. Everything feels like it's urgent in your 20s. You feel like
it's urgent in your 20s. You feel like you need the promotion. You feel like
you need the promotion. You feel like you need to invest straight away. You
you need to invest straight away. You feel like you need the pay rise
feel like you need the pay rise immediately. But decades over dopamine
immediately. But decades over dopamine and he's got a long time and the the
and he's got a long time and the the things that he learns now, the things
things that he learns now, the things that he invests in, the skills and the
that he invests in, the skills and the risks that he take, he can bounce back
risks that he take, he can bounce back from that.
from that. >> And even when it comes to investing,
>> And even when it comes to investing, actually, when you're in your 20s, you
actually, when you're in your 20s, you can be more risk averse because you have
can be more risk averse because you have the upward trend of the market
the upward trend of the market that will see you through.
that will see you through. >> Mhm. So 20s is the time to take the
>> Mhm. So 20s is the time to take the risk, take all the tiny experiments,
risk, take all the tiny experiments, and just be a sponge where you absorb
and just be a sponge where you absorb everything.
everything. >> Yeah, that's what I'll take.
>> Yeah, that's what I'll take. >> What about Lisa in the middle, though?
>> What about Lisa in the middle, though? >> Lisa is she's got a mortgage, she's got
>> Lisa is she's got a mortgage, she's got an income, and she's got a good amount
an income, and she's got a good amount of savings, and she is keen to start
of savings, and she is keen to start investing, but she doesn't know where to
investing, but she doesn't know where to start. And this is where a lot of people
start. And this is where a lot of people fall into. They have their savings
fall into. They have their savings setting aside. Um, and this is she's
setting aside. Um, and this is she's doing really well, someone like in
doing really well, someone like in Lisa's position. But if anyone listening
Lisa's position. But if anyone listening to this is similar to Lisa's position,
to this is similar to Lisa's position, it chances are they're not investing
it chances are they're not investing because they are scared and fearful of
because they are scared and fearful of what to do and they don't know where to
what to do and they don't know where to start. So Lisa, I would say have your
start. So Lisa, I would say have your emergency fund in place. Pay off any
emergency fund in place. Pay off any debt. It doesn't look like you have any
debt. It doesn't look like you have any debt. If your mortgage isn't over 8%,
debt. If your mortgage isn't over 8%, you can make more from instead of paying
you can make more from instead of paying down your debt, you can make more
down your debt, you can make more investing. So, you're great to start
investing. So, you're great to start wanting to invest. And I would say keep
wanting to invest. And I would say keep it simple. Do it for the long term. Keep
it simple. Do it for the long term. Keep it simple. You want to if especially if
it simple. You want to if especially if you're just starting out, your emotions
you're just starting out, your emotions and the behavior is going to play a key
and the behavior is going to play a key part in your investing. So, 100% of your
part in your investing. So, 100% of your portfolio, stick to index funds and
portfolio, stick to index funds and target date to retirement funds at the
target date to retirement funds at the moment. And then if you are ready as you
moment. And then if you are ready as you get more senior, you haven't increased
get more senior, you haven't increased your income, then you can dip into other
your income, then you can dip into other assets should you want to.
assets should you want to. >> And we've got Matt over there who's a
>> And we've got Matt over there who's a single parent earning about So Lisa was
single parent earning about So Lisa was earning roughly 140,000 a year. Yeah.
earning roughly 140,000 a year. Yeah. >> Matt's earning60,000 a year.
>> Matt's earning60,000 a year. >> Over over 50% of his income is going
>> Over over 50% of his income is going towards his rent. He has credit card
towards his rent. He has credit card debt of 1,500. The first thing I would
debt of 1,500. The first thing I would say looking at someone in Matt's
say looking at someone in Matt's position is if you've already saved for
position is if you've already saved for your peace of mind fund, you the first
your peace of mind fund, you the first thing you want to do is pay off that
thing you want to do is pay off that high interest rate debt. It is like
high interest rate debt. It is like running with weights on your ankles. You
running with weights on your ankles. You want to take them off so you can start
want to take them off so you can start moving on to the next path of your
moving on to the next path of your financial journey. So focus on paying
financial journey. So focus on paying off that credit card debt. He wants to
off that credit card debt. He wants to increase income income sources but has
increase income income sources but has little time outside of work and being a
little time outside of work and being a dad. So that says to me that he probably
dad. So that says to me that he probably doesn't have time or energy to spend on
doesn't have time or energy to spend on trying to see if something's going to
trying to see if something's going to work and see what comes out of it. He
work and see what comes out of it. He wants to um make an immediate source of
wants to um make an immediate source of income. So the easiest way to increase
income. So the easiest way to increase your income is getting an increase in
your income is getting an increase in your current job,
your current job, getting a pay rise, and if not switching
getting a pay rise, and if not switching companies to see if you get a pay rise
companies to see if you get a pay rise that way. When I'm looking at my own
that way. When I'm looking at my own career, when I stayed at the same
career, when I stayed at the same organization, it was the increase was
organization, it was the increase was between
between 3% 5% sometimes a bit higher if I got
3% 5% sometimes a bit higher if I got promoted to 10%. And then when I
promoted to 10%. And then when I switched companies, it was always
switched companies, it was always between 20 and 30% when I moved. And I
between 20 and 30% when I moved. And I know that is I I was in a lucky place
know that is I I was in a lucky place where I had the movement to get those
where I had the movement to get those pay jumps and to get that salary
pay jumps and to get that salary increase. And not everyone's in that
increase. And not everyone's in that position. Um but if you have or if
position. Um but if you have or if you're in an industry which there is a
you're in an industry which there is a there is more path to earn more then I
there is more path to earn more then I would definitely say first and foremost
would definitely say first and foremost increase your income. You don't have to
increase your income. You don't have to put in any more time towards it given
put in any more time towards it given you also have uh children to look after
you also have uh children to look after as well.
as well. If you've
If you've stopped, if you've already exhausted
stopped, if you've already exhausted those two avenues, then the next thing
those two avenues, then the next thing I'll say if you want an immediate income
I'll say if you want an immediate income is picking up income streams that
is picking up income streams that unfortunately might be tied to your
unfortunately might be tied to your time, but they will have an immediate
time, but they will have an immediate impact on your income because that's
impact on your income because that's probably what you might be looking to do
probably what you might be looking to do because your rent and I'm guessing your
because your rent and I'm guessing your other living expenses are taking up a
other living expenses are taking up a lot of your take-home pay. So, you want
lot of your take-home pay. So, you want to find out that extra buffer to start
to find out that extra buffer to start paying towards the debt that you have.
paying towards the debt that you have. things like
things like >> so this could be things like uh selling
>> so this could be things like uh selling secondhand stuff online um selling
secondhand stuff online um selling products online renting out a spare room
products online renting out a spare room if you have that on Airbnb um things
if you have that on Airbnb um things that you don't actually need to put
that you don't actually need to put capital in to make money straight away
capital in to make money straight away from
from >> are there things you never spend money
>> are there things you never spend money on
on >> at this point in my life me specifically
>> at this point in my life me specifically I don't think I bought a designer
I don't think I bought a designer >> item in two years which is a lot for me
>> item in two years which is a lot for me because I was dripped out in the
because I was dripped out in the designer wear beforehand I've found
designer wear beforehand I've found that my validation in life has come
that my validation in life has come through by work and through internally
through by work and through internally and it took me on a journey to do that
and it took me on a journey to do that and I just don't believe in
and I just don't believe in the premium prices that you pay for
the premium prices that you pay for promoting another product or a brand
promoting another product or a brand if it's for utility. If you're buying a
if it's for utility. If you're buying a branded item or a designer for utility,
branded item or a designer for utility, i.e. this design or this brand
i.e. this design or this brand works better, then go for it. But if
works better, then go for it. But if you're doing it purely to show, then for
you're doing it purely to show, then for me at this point in my life, it's just a
me at this point in my life, it's just a no-go. I could spend that money in other
no-go. I could spend that money in other ways that brings me a lot more um
ways that brings me a lot more um fulfillment in different ways.
fulfillment in different ways. >> Do you spend on fast fashion instead of
>> Do you spend on fast fashion instead of the luxury high-end stuff?
the luxury high-end stuff? >> Oh, that's a good question. No, I don't
>> Oh, that's a good question. No, I don't spend on fast fashion unless it's a
spend on fast fashion unless it's a really urgent last minute buy and I
really urgent last minute buy and I haven't found anything else. But I tend
haven't found anything else. But I tend to have a capsule wardrobe which means I
to have a capsule wardrobe which means I could play around. I spend
could play around. I spend >> a good amount on quality pieces
>> a good amount on quality pieces >> and that's important to me. Quality
>> and that's important to me. Quality pieces I could use time and time again
pieces I could use time and time again and can switch in and out of. And I I
and can switch in and out of. And I I think for me when it comes to clothing,
think for me when it comes to clothing, it's more just okay
it's more just okay with work. It's what can remove the
with work. It's what can remove the decision- making for me.
decision- making for me. >> What about books?
>> What about books? >> I think that is one area that I love
>> I think that is one area that I love spending money on. There's an infinite
spending money on. There's an infinite return. There really is. And actually
return. There really is. And actually some of the breakthroughs I've had have
some of the breakthroughs I've had have come from the books I've read. Even the
come from the books I've read. Even the first book I read which was Rich Dad
first book I read which was Rich Dad Poor Dad that just that concept of
Poor Dad that just that concept of understanding assets versus liabilities.
understanding assets versus liabilities. Just knowing that from an early age can
Just knowing that from an early age can start changing your thinking in a way
start changing your thinking in a way that you wouldn't be able to having a
that you wouldn't be able to having a normal conversation because the people
normal conversation because the people you hang around with, the people who you
you hang around with, the people who you spend time with, they have a massive
spend time with, they have a massive impact on where you end up. And I think
impact on where you end up. And I think it's easy to say just hang out with
it's easy to say just hang out with another crew or just hang out with a new
another crew or just hang out with a new crowd that pushes you. But actually for
crowd that pushes you. But actually for a lot of people, they don't have access
a lot of people, they don't have access to that. And that's where books,
to that. And that's where books, podcasts, YouTube videos, it almost has
podcasts, YouTube videos, it almost has that averaging effect of the five people
that averaging effect of the five people around you.
around you. >> It mirrors that effect. So even if you
>> It mirrors that effect. So even if you don't have access to the people who you
don't have access to the people who you want to learn from by reading their
want to learn from by reading their book, watching the videos, listening to
book, watching the videos, listening to the podcasts, you can still gain that
the podcasts, you can still gain that knowledge and it's almost equivalent to
knowledge and it's almost equivalent to you sitting with them for an hour.
you sitting with them for an hour. >> So you're saying people should
>> So you're saying people should definitely subscribe?
definitely subscribe? >> Always
>> Always subliminal messaging.
subliminal messaging. >> You wear black a lot like me. Is that an
>> You wear black a lot like me. Is that an intentional choice? It started off
intentional choice? It started off because when I was doing my YouTube
because when I was doing my YouTube channel alongside working in banking, I
channel alongside working in banking, I had to find every way possible to
had to find every way possible to eliminate any sort of decision- making
eliminate any sort of decision- making that will stop me from doing the thing.
that will stop me from doing the thing. >> Yeah.
>> Yeah. >> And so it was a way for me to create a
>> And so it was a way for me to create a system, not rely on motivation. So there
system, not rely on motivation. So there was about four outfits of black that I'd
was about four outfits of black that I'd always change from and it made my life a
always change from and it made my life a lot easier. Now this has carried
lot easier. Now this has carried through. It's been a lot of just it just
through. It's been a lot of just it just makes me think about things less. But
makes me think about things less. But no, I do also wear other colors just as
no, I do also wear other colors just as much. It just happens to be that black
much. It just happens to be that black is 60% of my wardrobe.
is 60% of my wardrobe. >> Nisha, we have a closing tradition on
>> Nisha, we have a closing tradition on this podcast where the last guest leaves
this podcast where the last guest leaves a question for the next not knowing who
a question for the next not knowing who they're leaving it for. And the question
they're leaving it for. And the question that's been left for you is who is the
that's been left for you is who is the one person that was slash is responsible
one person that was slash is responsible for the person that you are today and
for the person that you are today and the reason why you are sitting here?
the reason why you are sitting here? It goes back to the person who when I
It goes back to the person who when I started my YouTube videos
started my YouTube videos and I got a lot of noise and a lot of
and I got a lot of noise and a lot of people saying, "Oh, like what is she
people saying, "Oh, like what is she doing? Does this make sense?" The person
doing? Does this make sense?" The person who really kept me going was my dad.
Yeah. He saw my videos and he said to me, "What you're doing is so good for
me, "What you're doing is so good for the world. Your education is going to
the world. Your education is going to help so many people. don't stop.
help so many people. don't stop. And I didn't.
And I didn't. So,
So, thanks, Dad, for believing me when there
thanks, Dad, for believing me when there was like nine or 10 views on my videos.
It's crazy how someone just saying a few words at the right moment can be so sort
words at the right moment can be so sort of pivotal to your like trajectory.
Does he know how much he inspired all of this?
this? >> I don't think he knows the extent to it.
>> I don't think he knows the extent to it. I sent him like a message maybe a few
I sent him like a message maybe a few months ago
months ago um telling him like, "Hey, remember that
um telling him like, "Hey, remember that day when I showed you my YouTube video
day when I showed you my YouTube video and it was just me in my dining room and
and it was just me in my dining room and I couldn't even speak properly and it
I couldn't even speak properly and it was set up in a weird lighting and it
was set up in a weird lighting and it was getting nine or 10 views and you
was getting nine or 10 views and you said, "Don't stop. Keep passing this
said, "Don't stop. Keep passing this education down." And I said to him, I
education down." And I said to him, I did send that message to him and said,
did send that message to him and said, "I'm so glad you did that because I've
"I'm so glad you did that because I've continued because of that." And we're
continued because of that." And we're not really wordy with each other, but I
not really wordy with each other, but I think he heard it. I don't know if he
think he heard it. I don't know if he knows the extent, but I think he'll be
knows the extent, but I think he'll be happy to know the extent of it now.
happy to know the extent of it now. You got the tissues, Jack.
You got the tissues, Jack. >> Thank you.
>> Thank you. >> Thanks. Yeah, I think we're good.
>> Thanks. Yeah, I think we're good. >> Who is the one person that was is
>> Who is the one person that was is responsible for the person that you are
responsible for the person that you are today and the reason why you're sitting
today and the reason why you're sitting here now? And that is dad.
here now? And that is dad. That is dad.
That is dad. >> He must be pretty shocked to some
>> He must be pretty shocked to some degree. Like no one could have imagined
degree. Like no one could have imagined and
and your channel would be this big and you'd
your channel would be this big and you'd be reaching this many people.
be reaching this many people. >> He didn't expect it. I didn't expect it.
>> He didn't expect it. I didn't expect it. I think he
I think he believed that
believed that for him he believed
for him he believed that a job was security for us. I'm one
that a job was security for us. I'm one of three girls. I'm the middle sister.
of three girls. I'm the middle sister. And all he wanted was for us to get a
And all he wanted was for us to get a good job and be secure. And so whilst
good job and be secure. And so whilst this is beyond I could ever expect, when
this is beyond I could ever expect, when I quit and I quit taking a big pay cut,
I quit and I quit taking a big pay cut, that was hard for him.
that was hard for him. >> How big was the pay cut?
>> How big was the pay cut? >> 84%.
>> 84%. >> So you were on
>> So you were on >> 220.
>> 220. >> Yeah.
>> Yeah. >> Which is about $300,000.
>> Which is about $300,000. >> Yeah. And I was just about to get a a
>> Yeah. And I was just about to get a a six figure bon. So I left before a six
six figure bon. So I left before a six figure bonus. Just before the biggest
figure bonus. Just before the biggest bonus of my career. I negotiated it. I
bonus of my career. I negotiated it. I spent months negotiating it. And two
spent months negotiating it. And two months before that six figure bonus
months before that six figure bonus landed, I resigned.
landed, I resigned. >> Why didn't you just wait?
>> Why didn't you just wait? >> There's always going to be a carrot
>> There's always going to be a carrot waved in front of your face. And that
waved in front of your face. And that carrot's going to come in different
carrot's going to come in different shapes, sizes, forms,
shapes, sizes, forms, and it's going to be a distraction to
and it's going to be a distraction to keep you on the default path.
The carrot for me was that bonus telling me, "Hey, just wait. Just wait
telling me, "Hey, just wait. Just wait another two months and then wait another
another two months and then wait another year and another year and 5 years and 10
year and another year and 5 years and 10 years and just wait till you're 60." And
years and just wait till you're 60." And I had this once in a-lifetime
I had this once in a-lifetime opportunity
opportunity that was just exploding on the side.
that was just exploding on the side. And with it came all these people
And with it came all these people saying, "Hey, I'm so thankful for all of
saying, "Hey, I'm so thankful for all of this." And I was getting DMs from people
this." And I was getting DMs from people just pouring their life story to me.
just pouring their life story to me. And there is no monetary value that
And there is no monetary value that beats that. There really isn't. And so I
beats that. There really isn't. And so I like took a step back. I ran my numbers.
like took a step back. I ran my numbers. It was 84% pay cut. I thought it still
It was 84% pay cut. I thought it still covers my mortgage. It covers my like
covers my mortgage. It covers my like basic living expenses.
basic living expenses. The biggest risk isn't quitting my job.
The biggest risk isn't quitting my job. The biggest risk is letting this once in
The biggest risk is letting this once in a lifetime opportunity pass me by and
a lifetime opportunity pass me by and never knowing where that path could have
never knowing where that path could have taken me. That was the biggest risk. And
taken me. That was the biggest risk. And the hardest part was actually just
the hardest part was actually just letting go of the identity that I
letting go of the identity that I wrapped myself in.
Yeah. >> What was identity?
>> I my title was my identity. I'd worked in
my title was my identity. I'd worked in banking for nine years and I could sit
banking for nine years and I could sit at a dinner table, cling on to my title,
at a dinner table, cling on to my title, say I worked in finance and feel
say I worked in finance and feel externally validated.
externally validated. And so that move to quit at the time
And so that move to quit at the time that I did from a career, a corporate
that I did from a career, a corporate career which I've worked so hard for,
career which I've worked so hard for, it's
it's like it's what I wanted for so long. and
like it's what I wanted for so long. and then just let go of that and say
then just let go of that and say I'm letting go of that identity. It took
I'm letting go of that identity. It took so much reframing in my mind and so much
so much reframing in my mind and so much mind work and so many things I had to do
mind work and so many things I had to do to make myself feel comfortable to say
to make myself feel comfortable to say okay I'm not letting anything else
okay I'm not letting anything else dictate the way my life goes from here.
dictate the way my life goes from here. It was a lot of work. And I would say if
It was a lot of work. And I would say if anyone else is listening to this
anyone else is listening to this thinking,
thinking, I'm in a place where
I'm in a place where I'm unhappy. I really want to do
I'm unhappy. I really want to do something new, but I'm scared and I
something new, but I'm scared and I don't know what other people are going
don't know what other people are going to say and
to say and what's society going to say if I quit or
what's society going to say if I quit or take this other path.
take this other path. I could say the things that I did that
I could say the things that I did that really helped me.
And the first is spend more time on
spend more time on the path that you want to go down than
the path that you want to go down than around the people that are telling you
around the people that are telling you otherwise.
otherwise. Because so often we're half in half out.
Because so often we're half in half out. We're interested in something but we're
We're interested in something but we're not obsessed with it. And when you're
not obsessed with it. And when you're interested, you just kind of just do
interested, you just kind of just do whatever needs to be done. But when
whatever needs to be done. But when you're obsessed,
you're obsessed, you're going to do whatever it takes.
you're going to do whatever it takes. And this applies to anything to
And this applies to anything to changing your career to being a parent
changing your career to being a parent to being an entrepreneur.
to being an entrepreneur. Become obsessed with that thing that you
Become obsessed with that thing that you want to do cuz that will give you the
want to do cuz that will give you the courage to make the hard decisions when
courage to make the hard decisions when they come.
they come. The second thing,
The second thing, and I think I made a video on this too,
and I think I made a video on this too, I I wrote down on my phone on on an
I I wrote down on my phone on on an Apple notes,
Apple notes, and I wrote down all the things people
and I wrote down all the things people were saying to me, the external noise.
were saying to me, the external noise. And underneath it, I had what my inner
And underneath it, I had what my inner voice was saying.
voice was saying. And it's really easy when your inner
And it's really easy when your inner voice isn't loud for it to be diluted by
voice isn't loud for it to be diluted by what everyone else around you is saying.
what everyone else around you is saying. that at that point if anyone said
that at that point if anyone said anything or if anyone is saying anything
anything or if anyone is saying anything to plant seeds of doubt in your head
to plant seeds of doubt in your head look at what your inner voice is saying
look at what your inner voice is saying read it repeat it let that be louder
read it repeat it let that be louder than anything else that is happening
than anything else that is happening around you
around you >> and what was the external voices saying
>> and what was the external voices saying >> well when my channel started picking up
>> well when my channel started picking up it was
it was being shared into um WhatsApp groups of
being shared into um WhatsApp groups of people I know and friends of friends and
people I know and friends of friends and friends and friends and it was just,
friends and friends and it was just, you know, when you're just starting
you know, when you're just starting something new and someone is breaking
something new and someone is breaking barriers, it's just trying to
barriers, it's just trying to >> pull them back.
>> pull them back. >> Pull them back a little bit. This isn't
>> Pull them back a little bit. This isn't you.
you. >> Mocking them subtly.
>> Mocking them subtly. >> Yeah. Why are you saying your numbers
>> Yeah. Why are you saying your numbers online? What are you doing? Lol. And
online? What are you doing? Lol. And you've just got to remember the reason
you've just got to remember the reason why I'm saying my numbers online. That
why I'm saying my numbers online. That is hard to do. It's hard to sit there
is hard to do. It's hard to sit there and say this is my salary over 9 years.
and say this is my salary over 9 years. It's hard to do that. But I I remind
It's hard to do that. But I I remind myself it's to be transparent. It's to
myself it's to be transparent. It's to help people make the decisions that help
help people make the decisions that help them with money.
them with money. It's the same reason why I came back and
It's the same reason why I came back and said, "I want to say this because it's
said, "I want to say this because it's the transparency."
the transparency." And I think the third thing
And I think the third thing I think everyone should like kind of
I think everyone should like kind of take into account when
take into account when they're making um Hold on, give me a
they're making um Hold on, give me a second.
second. >> Where's where's this emotion coming
>> Where's where's this emotion coming from? It's very deep inside you.
There was a lot of pain during my career
during my career and I felt really trapped at times but I
and I felt really trapped at times but I don't know how to escape
don't know how to escape but also cuz I know a lot of people are
but also cuz I know a lot of people are probably hearing this and thinking I'm
probably hearing this and thinking I'm also in that place
also in that place and so I really feel like my purpose is
and so I really feel like my purpose is to help as many people to go from
to help as many people to go from feeling trapped to
feeling trapped to freeing themselves and using money to do
freeing themselves and using money to do that. And so I guess that's why I'm
that. And so I guess that's why I'm feeling like
feeling like it's bringing it all out because this is
it's bringing it all out because this is just alignment for me.
And it's just like bringing back the memories of what where I was at that
memories of what where I was at that time and what I had to do to
time and what I had to do to like just take that cup because at the
like just take that cup because at the end of the day, no one else has to deal
end of the day, no one else has to deal with your
with your with the decisions you make in life more
with the decisions you make in life more than you. They have to deal with maybe
than you. They have to deal with maybe the consequence of a moment. But only
the consequence of a moment. But only you have to deal with the consequences
you have to deal with the consequences of all the decisions that you make in
of all the decisions that you make in life. Only you have to go to a job and
life. Only you have to go to a job and whe a company that you don't want to
whe a company that you don't want to work in. Only you have to live that day.
work in. Only you have to live that day. Only you have to
Only you have to be with a partner if that's the reason
be with a partner if that's the reason you chose. If if you chose because
you chose. If if you chose because everyone else is saying it, only you
everyone else is saying it, only you have to do that. Only you have to grow
have to do that. Only you have to grow old with the memories of what could
old with the memories of what could have, should have, would have been
and live with the what if. And that's why I I guess there's so many people
why I I guess there's so many people that I know and that probably listening
that I know and that probably listening to this that know deep down there's
to this that know deep down there's something more out there. And I just
something more out there. And I just want to if anything give them the
want to if anything give them the courage to say
courage to say take that risk. It's usually a
take that risk. It's usually a calculated risk. And if it's to do with
calculated risk. And if it's to do with your money and finances, spend some
your money and finances, spend some time, make sure you have your emergency
time, make sure you have your emergency fund or whatever it is that's needed,
fund or whatever it is that's needed, but align your money to match your life
but align your money to match your life decisions
decisions cuz it can really be freeing.
>> Have you spoken much about the pain? >> Why?
>> Why? >> It's my content is personal finance.
>> It's my content is personal finance. It's not really about me. It's about
It's not really about me. It's about personal finance. I'm just trying to
personal finance. I'm just trying to educate people. Um, yeah,
educate people. Um, yeah, I didn't
I didn't I probably wouldn't have spoken about it
I probably wouldn't have spoken about it here if you didn't ask me the question
here if you didn't ask me the question about
about where it's come from. It's taking me
where it's come from. It's taking me back to the start. And sometimes you go
back to the start. And sometimes you go into a journey and you get tunnel vision
into a journey and you get tunnel vision and you forget why you did it and you
and you forget why you did it and you forget why you started. And
you forget all the people that helped you on that journey. And there was a lot
you on that journey. And there was a lot of people that helped me and at
of people that helped me and at different points.
different points. My partner, my mom, my dad, my sisters,
My partner, my mom, my dad, my sisters, like they've all helped me at different
like they've all helped me at different points. And the people I learned from,
points. And the people I learned from, my mentors, like it's just all
my mentors, like it's just all a reminder as to
how it started and how different things have lined up.
have lined up. >> What was the hardest day when you look
>> What was the hardest day when you look back through that transition that you've
back through that transition that you've been on? What was was there a hardest
been on? What was was there a hardest day, a hardest moment?
day, a hardest moment? >> The hardest day was that morning when I
>> The hardest day was that morning when I emailed my manager to get on a Zoom call
emailed my manager to get on a Zoom call and I said, "I'm turning down that
and I said, "I'm turning down that bonus.
bonus. I'm leaving banking." That was the
I'm leaving banking." That was the hardest.
hardest. >> If I was a fly on the wall,
>> If I was a fly on the wall, >> yeah.
>> yeah. >> What would I have seen that day?
>> What would I have seen that day? You'd see
You'd see a girl in her late 20s
a girl in her late 20s taking or saying no to a path that could
taking or saying no to a path that could make money and that was very certain and
make money and that was very certain and that followed the default path
that followed the default path to go to a path where she wasn't sure if
to go to a path where she wasn't sure if she was going to make money. She didn't
she was going to make money. She didn't know how it would turn out, but she did
know how it would turn out, but she did it because it meant so much to her and
it because it meant so much to her and she did it because she saw the impact
she did it because she saw the impact she was having.
she was having. And in her 10 years or nine years in
And in her 10 years or nine years in banking, she's never felt like she's had
banking, she's never felt like she's had that impact on individuals. It's been on
that impact on individuals. It's been on for corporates or for sovereigns. It's
for corporates or for sovereigns. It's never been for
never been for specific people or day-to-day people who
specific people or day-to-day people who need it.
need it. And she did it and she didn't know where
And she did it and she didn't know where it was going to lead her.
it was going to lead her. >> Is there an element of
>> Is there an element of being a first or second generation
being a first or second generation immigrant that ties into this? Because I
immigrant that ties into this? Because I hear so often when people come up to me
hear so often when people come up to me in the in the gym and you know their
in the in the gym and you know their their mother's African like my mother's
their mother's African like my mother's African and and I was born in Africa and
African and and I was born in Africa and so my mother's Nigerian and put
so my mother's Nigerian and put tremendous weight on you know going to
tremendous weight on you know going to university and becoming a success in the
university and becoming a success in the eyes of the public and then I hear a lot
eyes of the public and then I hear a lot from sort of more Asian
from sort of more Asian first generation immigrants or second
first generation immigrants or second generation immigrants that they feel you
generation immigrants that they feel you know the doctor lawyer can't remember
know the doctor lawyer can't remember what the third one was doctor lawyer
what the third one was doctor lawyer something
something >> accountant I don't know
>> accountant I don't know >> maybe finance
>> maybe finance >> do you think that plays a role
>> do you think that plays a role >> into why you go down a certain path.
>> into why you go down a certain path. >> Yeah. In in terms of like if you're at
>> Yeah. In in terms of like if you're at home and you're you have first
home and you're you have first generation immigrant parents and they
generation immigrant parents and they see success as like one of three jobs,
see success as like one of three jobs, it becomes harder to break out. Like
it becomes harder to break out. Like breaking out is basically makes you a
breaking out is basically makes you a failure at home.
failure at home. >> I think there's two things. I think it's
>> I think there's two things. I think it's definitely that's a big part of it. but
definitely that's a big part of it. but also seeing what your parents did and
also seeing what your parents did and how hard they worked to get you onto a
how hard they worked to get you onto a path of security, which is a job, and
path of security, which is a job, and then saying, "Yeah, you worked really
then saying, "Yeah, you worked really hard and I'm throwing that away."
hard and I'm throwing that away." There's a lot of guilt that comes with
There's a lot of guilt that comes with that.
that. >> Mhm.
>> Mhm. >> So, I think it's I think it's both. I
>> So, I think it's I think it's both. I think it's
think it's >> Did you feel that guilt?
>> Did you feel that guilt? >> I did at the time. Massive guilt.
>> I did at the time. Massive guilt. >> Massive guilt. I couldn't tell anyone
>> Massive guilt. I couldn't tell anyone that I was quitting until after I quit.
that I was quitting until after I quit. The only person who knew was my then
The only person who knew was my then boyfriend, now husband.
boyfriend, now husband. >> Your parents didn't know.
>> Your parents didn't know. >> They didn't know till after I quit. I
>> They didn't know till after I quit. I couldn't tell them.
couldn't tell them. >> Why?
>> Why? >> Cuz I knew that if they said something,
>> Cuz I knew that if they said something, I might have just changed my decision.
I might have just changed my decision. >> And you think they would have said
>> And you think they would have said something?
something? >> I don't know. But when I told them, they
>> I don't know. But when I told them, they supported it because they knew it was
supported it because they knew it was also too late. I think they might have
also too late. I think they might have just said, "Hey, this is secure." Well,
just said, "Hey, this is secure." Well, maybe there's something in that. Maybe
maybe there's something in that. Maybe in those big decisions where, as you
in those big decisions where, as you say, you're going to deal with the
say, you're going to deal with the consequences yourself, both the upside
consequences yourself, both the upside and the regret. Maybe consensus and
and the regret. Maybe consensus and focus groups aren't needed in such a
focus groups aren't needed in such a moment when we should be tuning into the
moment when we should be tuning into the voice inside. Because yeah, external
voice inside. Because yeah, external voices will just complicate those
voices will just complicate those things. But I also think, you know, I
things. But I also think, you know, I say this to people a lot when they come
say this to people a lot when they come up to me and they say, "I'm in this
up to me and they say, "I'm in this situation. I'm in finance. I'm working
situation. I'm in finance. I'm working in the city. I've got this dream of
in the city. I've got this dream of being a violin player in Peru."
being a violin player in Peru." The first question I often ask them is
The first question I often ask them is like, could you go back if you're wrong?
like, could you go back if you're wrong? Because if you could go back if you're
Because if you could go back if you're wrong, then that's what we call a I
wrong, then that's what we call a I think it's a type one decision in
think it's a type one decision in business, which is a door that is
business, which is a door that is reversible. And so many people spend one
reversible. And so many people spend one year, 3 years, 5 years, 10 years, 20
year, 3 years, 5 years, 10 years, 20 years of their life stood in front of a
years of their life stood in front of a type one decision, a door that they
type one decision, a door that they could walk back through if they're
could walk back through if they're wrong. And actually, it's just like such
wrong. And actually, it's just like such a crazy shame not to make those type one
a crazy shame not to make those type one decisions at speed
decisions at speed >> if if it's reversible. And it's so crazy
>> if if it's reversible. And it's so crazy because like 95% of the time when I ask
because like 95% of the time when I ask someone that question, they respond.
someone that question, they respond. They said, "Yeah, I could go back to
They said, "Yeah, I could go back to investment banking if I was wrong."
investment banking if I was wrong." Yeah.
Yeah. >> I'm like, "Go do the violin thing then.
>> I'm like, "Go do the violin thing then. Go up, fail. It might work out,
Go up, fail. It might work out, whatever, but come back here if you're
whatever, but come back here if you're if you can." So
if you can." So >> yeah, you won't have that pain of what
>> yeah, you won't have that pain of what if anymore.
if anymore. >> The what if. Yeah. And I I remember
>> The what if. Yeah. And I I remember reading that study from Bon Bronny
reading that study from Bon Bronny Bronnyware.
Bronnyware. >> Yeah.
>> Yeah. >> Palative nurse who interviewed people on
>> Palative nurse who interviewed people on their deathbeds. And it was um I think
their deathbeds. And it was um I think the number one regret is not living the
the number one regret is not living the life that I think I could have lived.
life that I think I could have lived. And I've always remembered that. I
And I've always remembered that. I thought, okay, so if it's reversible,
thought, okay, so if it's reversible, then maybe go through that door as fast
then maybe go through that door as fast as you can. Nisha, thank you so much for
as you can. Nisha, thank you so much for doing what you do. It's really um it's
doing what you do. It's really um it's really incredibly important. And I think
really incredibly important. And I think the very fact that your channel has been
the very fact that your channel has been so resonant and so far reaching speaks
so resonant and so far reaching speaks to an unmet demand in people's
to an unmet demand in people's understanding of finance, but also
understanding of finance, but also having a voice that they can very much
having a voice that they can very much relate to that um simplifies, makes
relate to that um simplifies, makes things complicated things accessible,
things complicated things accessible, but also just a human being that is um
but also just a human being that is um relatable in many forms. your intentions
relatable in many forms. your intentions of why you're doing what you're doing
of why you're doing what you're doing are so abundantly clear and I could see
are so abundantly clear and I could see that in the emotion. I could see that
that in the emotion. I could see that you really really do care about other
you really really do care about other people and actually your decision to
people and actually your decision to take a leap from the world of investment
take a leap from the world of investment banking which was much more secure and
banking which was much more secure and high status in many people's eyes at
high status in many people's eyes at that moment in time was one also
that moment in time was one also inspired by the fact that you want to do
inspired by the fact that you want to do good for the world and that is exactly
good for the world and that is exactly what you're doing. So I highly recommend
what you're doing. So I highly recommend everybody goes and checks out your
everybody goes and checks out your channel. and I'm going to link it below
channel. and I'm going to link it below um if they want to continue this
um if they want to continue this conversation because you make very
conversation because you make very actionable, concise, clear videos on all
actionable, concise, clear videos on all the subjects we've talked about, but
the subjects we've talked about, but many more. Um and also to go follow you
many more. Um and also to go follow you on social media, which I'll also link
on social media, which I'll also link everywhere else. Um but I just want to
everywhere else. Um but I just want to thank you for your time and hope
thank you for your time and hope hopefully we can talk again soon when
hopefully we can talk again soon when you've uh written a book and the the
you've uh written a book and the the book comes out.
book comes out. >> Thank you so much, Stephen. It's been a
>> Thank you so much, Stephen. It's been a pleasure.
pleasure. >> This has always blown my mind a little
>> This has always blown my mind a little bit. 53% of you that listen to this show
bit. 53% of you that listen to this show regularly haven't yet subscribed to the
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the diary. And I've sat here with some of the most incredible people in the
of the most incredible people in the world. And they've left all of these
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them from one to three in terms of the depth. One being a starter question. And
depth. One being a starter question. And level three, if you look on the back
level three, if you look on the back here, this is a level three, becomes a
here, this is a level three, becomes a much deeper question that builds even
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So, if you would like to get your hands on some of these conversation cards, go
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