YouTube Transcript:
Glenn Greenwald: The Truth About Epstein, Jake Tapper's Humiliation, & Insane New Push to Nuke Gaza

Must be a little weird to get scooped by
CNN on Joe Biden's dementia. Like you
had no idea. None of us knew. I you
know, but no, that now Jake Tapper has
uncovered the truth. Like it turns out
Joe Biden was in cognitive decline. Did
you know that? How did he find out? just
hardcore shoe leather investigators
working his sources like calling all the
people in Washington digging up like
foyer documents.
I just find the Epstein file so
fascinating because the two biggest
issues are are there people to whom he
traffked minors but nobody has been
charged with being the recipient of that
sex trafficking. But the much more
interesting question for me is was he
working with or for any foreign
intelligence agencies? Israel is the
number one recipient of NSA technology
and NSA intelligence. But at the same
time, the documents that describe who
are our greatest intelligence threats,
who are our greatest intelligence
adversaries, who spies on us the most,
who is capable of spying out the most,
number one on the list is Israel as
well.
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All right, Glenn. I think last time
you're here, I ambushed you just by
rolling the cameras. Not doing that. We
are on camera right now. Right. It was
It was funny because every show you ever
go on, it always begins in some sort of
way to indicate that you're actually
starting like Glen Greenwald, welcome to
the program. Thank you, Tucker, for
having me. But the last time I was on,
we were just sitting here chatting and
it turned out 10 minutes in, I was like,
"Oh, well, we're rolling." Yeah, we've
been rolling since we started. Yeah, but
you are one of those people and this is
the highest compliment I can give. Who's
exactly the same off camera exactly the
same as you are on camera, right? That's
why that's why I thought our
conversation was just the conversation
that we always have and it turned out it
was just the show which made no
difference. I we went they your staff
courteously let me see this first 10
minutes. I was like, "Yeah, that's what
I think. That's how I how I speak and
that's all fine." Yeah, there is uh if
you like Glenn Greenwald, you'll like
him at dinner. Trust me, that that's
what I can say about you. So, um, you
are, I think, the dean of alternative
media. You've been doing this longer
than anybody, um, that I know
personally. So, it must be a little
weird to get scooped by CNN on Joe
Biden's dementia. Like, you had no idea.
None of us knew. I, you know, I mean,
there was that debate and we were all
shocked, but we were like, but we were
told he had a cold, so I was like, okay,
he's on some cold medication. Like, who
hasn't been there before? Makes you a
little drag drag, like a little draggy,
a little groggy, a little just like
dragged. But no, that now Jake Tapper
has uncovered the truth. Like it turns
out Joe Biden was in cognitive decline.
Did you know that? How did he find out?
Just hardcore shoe leather investig.
[Laughter]
No, it really, you
know, it's one of those things where you
kind of can't believe what you're
witnessing because Jake Tapper is
pretending to have uncovered a scandal
that he himself led the way in the media
or one of the leaders in the media in
covering up to the point where if
somebody would go on his show and say,
"Joe Biden is obviously in cognitive
decline. He can't get a sentence out."
He would say, "How dare you bully kids
who stutter?"
like what do you are you at all ashamed
of what you're that's what he told Laura
Trump when she was like yeah I just I
feel bad for Joe Biden and I wish he
could get a sentence out and he's like
do you ever think about what you're
doing to kids who stutter and the kind
of world you're creating for them and
she's like what and like everyone else I
never even knew Joe Biden had a stutter
I've been watching him for decades I
never saw him stutter before the whole
stuttering thing was just it did she say
that yes he told Laura Trump that she
was like at an event and it was a very
like you know benign kind remarks. He
was just saying, "Yeah, you watch Joe
Biden." Cuz we we've talked about this
before when I, you know, I was on your
show. It wasn't even when he was
president. It was in the run-up to the
2020 campaign and we were talking about
this and we always talked about
everybody I know did. No one takes joy
in it. Like we've all had that
experience of watching an older person
in our family, you know, go through
cognitive decline. It's actually quite
sad. So the way she was saying it was
like, "Yeah, you know, honestly, as a
human being, I watch Joe Biden and he's
in the middle of a sentence that he
can't finish." I'm like, "Come on, Joe.
get that out. And then when he went on,
she went on Jake Tapper show, he played
that tape and she he said, "Do you
understand the world of bullying that
you're creating for kids who stutter?"
And she was like, "What?
Stuttering kids." Yeah. And she's like,
"I didn't even know he had a stutter."
And she he said, "And we all know he has
a stutter and I know that you are
mocking his stutter." And so this was
not just a person who didn't speak about
Joe Biden's cognitive decline, who's now
uncovering this shocking truth that 85%
of the public has known for years
according to polls. He was he would go
on I heard him this week saying one of
the very few people in the because he
was asked why why didn't people in the
Democratic party speak up and and say
this since they all knew it. He said
well Dean Phillips tried and he got
mauled and maligned and his character
was attacked by the Democratic party. I
was like, by the Democratic party, go
watch what happened when Dean Phillips
went on Jake Tapper's show and said that
one of the reasons he was running for
president. He was concerned about Joe
Biden's age and his infirmities and how
he couldn't win and couldn't govern. And
Jake Tapper said to him, "Do you know
that your Democratic colleagues despise
you and they've been telling me the
worst possible thing?" That's what he
did to everybody who went on his
show in order to say, "Hey, I think Joe
Biden's in cognitive decline." He was he
was I mean obviously he wanted Biden to
win desperately and would not tolerate
anyone going on the show and saying that
Biden was in cognitive decline and now
he's making millions of dollars off a
book. But the only good thing is that
his credibility is so in tatters from it
that he had to hire a PR crisis firm
like the kind that Anthony Weiner had to
hire that like Puffy Combmes hired. Like
imagine being a journalist and being
exposed as such a fraud that you have to
hire a PR crisis team of the kind that
like public figures hire when they're
involved in some like big, you know, sex
scandal or like bribery scandal. That's
who's managing Jake Tapper's behavior
and his compartment. They've tried to
place like hit pieces on me and succeed
in like, you know, shitty places like
the Delhi Beast. But every and
everything he says now is scripted, you
know, like every interview he does now.
At first it was like I did what are you
talking about? this is outrageous. And
now every time he's in an interview, he
says, "I look back on my coverage with
humility." You know that phrase they
feed you to make it seem like you're
accepting accountability.
Yes. Yeah. Yeah. What's interesting
though is to that it wasn't just
um you know, I disagree with you. I
Biden seems fine to me. What's
interesting is that he used the kind of
most vulgar moral blackmail you can.
Like you're attacking children who
stutter. You're attacking disabled kids
when you criticize the president of the
United States. Like that is so low. It's
hard to believe that happened. I haven't
seen the clip, but Yeah. Yeah. I mean,
he claims he called Laura Laura Trump to
apologize. Maybe he should do that on
his show since that's where he told his
audience she was attacking kids who
stutter. Like that's a pretty That's
like one of the worst things pretty much
that you could do is like bully kids
with disabilities, right? Like if my
kids ever did that, I would punish them
for 3 months, you know? So like accusing
her of having done that like probably
doesn't warrant a private apology or
maybe it does too but also you know you
go on air and you were like hey I did
something really despicable. You know
what's so amazing too is they're trying
to rewrite history. Obviously one of the
ways they're trying to rewrite history
is to say we were the victims of the
fraud. We in the media were the victims
of the fraud and were so angry at this
inner team of Joe Biden's White House
advisers who kept this from us, who hid
this, even though the entire public knew
forever. But I, you know, I've written
about this so many times, it drives me
crazy how easily history is rewritten.
The first time I ever heard concerns
about Joe Biden's cognitive decline was
back in 2018 when the Democratic field
was coalescing of of you know people who
was who were going to run against Donald
Trump and they were really worried Joe
Biden was going to get the nomination
solely by virtue of name recognition
because he was the vice president to to
to Barack Obama for eight years was
viewed as loyal has been around forever
and they all knew there was no way he
could sustain the rigors of an election
because he was in cognitive decline And
so it was like these Democratic
operatives like Andrea Mitchell talked
about it. Corey Booker and Julian Castro
in that 2019 debate. All made fun of
Biden for not being able to remember
what he had said three three seconds
ago. This it was the Democrats who were
raising it trying to alert everybody
that you shouldn't vote for Joe Biden
because he's not the same Joe Biden he
was. I'm not talking about 2023. I'm
talking about 2018 and 2019. remember
the minute it was down to Joe Biden and
Bernie Sanders in in the 2020 primary,
that's when all of a sudden the media
narrative shifted and it became the only
people who are talking about Biden's
supposed cognitive decline are Bernie
Bros and MAGA people and it's absolutely
immoral and disgusting. And that's when
I wrote an article saying, "What do you
mean? You were the ones who first raised
it. I heard it from you, you know, the
those DC insiders." So it's not and the
only reason why you know what saved Joe
Biden from that was that co happened and
he got to run the campaign from his
basement where he only talked to like
Nicole Wallace who spoke to him like
some you know alien grandpa you know
that voice that you use for like your
alien grandpa like Mr. President Mr.
fight and hello. Oh, and then you do
that fake laugh if they get even close
to a joke cuz those were the kind of
interviews he was doing. And he was in
that basement in Delaware. That's the
only reason why he could sustain that
campaign. But it was so widely known. I
mean, his sister Valerie told a good
friend of mine that she didn't want him
to run in 2020 because he had dementia.
Uh my former makeup artist, a makeup
artist, uh was there in the room when he
was injected with empetamines before an
event more than once um during that
campaign. And like I said all that on TV
and everyone I knew in DC who knew
Biden, I knew Biden said, "Yeah, no,
he's got dementia." Like every everybody
knew, everybody knew. It wasn't just
like some right-wing Twitter thing where
people were being cruel. It was like the
people who knew Biden knew that. So like
how could you not know? Well, I think
the the the reason this media fraud of
all the other media frauds that have
been perpetrated is probably the most
damaging. In 2016, they pushed this
whole
deranged, demented conspiracy theory
that Vladimir Putin had sex tapes on
Donald Trump where he was being urinated
on by a prostitute. And of course, if
you know Donald Trump, that's pretty
much the last thing that of all the
people on the planet. There's one sin he
didn't commit. Yeah. No, for Yeah. But
but you know it was it was that sort of
thing like they always accuse people in
independent media or you know whoever of
being conspiracy theorists like think
about that conspiracy like Donald Trump
was being blackmailed by the Russian
government into sacrificing the interest
of the United States to serve the
interests of the Kremlin. That really
was the predominant media narrative from
2016 to 2018. So that's what they did to
try and stop Trump the first time. In
2020, you know, weeks before the
election, the New York Post had very
serious reporting about the Biden family
unethically exploiting Joe Biden's
influence in Ukraine and China to profit
not for themselves only, but also for
Joe Biden. And we were told by the media
over and over the lie that this is
Russian disinformation, that that this
laptop should be the contents of it
should be ignored because it's
inauthentic. That of course was when I
left the Intercept because they wouldn't
let me write about it claiming that
there were doubts about it authenticity
when I knew there weren't. But that was
and then Twitter and Facebook censored
it. But on those kind of questions like
rushate the authenticity of these emails
like for most Americans they don't have
the competence to judge that because
they do other things. But when it comes
to
seeing older people in cognitive decline
most of them have had that experience
with like a grandparent or a parent or a
sibling or a neighbor or whatever and
don't need to be told by quote unquote
experts that is happening because they
can see it with their own eyes. And for
the media to have sat there for a year
and a half and told everybody, as Joe
Scarbor said, this version of Joe Biden
is the best Biden we've ever seen. I
mean, imagine being such a state
propagandist that you do that and then
keep your job. I think that's why this
scandal is so devastating to them and
why, like when Jake Tapper stands up to
write a book saying, "I've uncovered the
truth with investigative reporting." You
know, everybody is reacting with justifi
justifiable nausea. You got to admit it
takes some balls to do that, though. I
mean, I famously advocated for the Iraq
war, realized in 20 2003 that it was a
bad idea, and said I was wrong. What I
didn't do was write a book saying like
it was wrong, and I always thought it
was wrong. Or like, hey, I'm here to
write a book saying why the Iraq war was
based on falsehoods. It's like, we we
already know, Tucker. Thank you. Right.
Like, you didn't go and write that book
because you were the one helping to
perpetuate that. Exactly. I totally
agree. So I guess without repentance,
without the acknowledgement of
wrongdoing, of dishonesty, without
saying I screwed up, and making that the
headline, nothing that follows is
credible at all. It's like all fake
unless you admit your role in the lie.
Right. Which which and and and if that
happened, if you said like, look, I was
really swept up in the media bubble I
was in and I want to tell the story of
why I did this or how I got I convinced
myself of this lie, then there would be
some nobility to it. there would be some
value and worth. But from this is what I
mean like you know I was there were
several people but myself was included
who was I was bashing the table every
day. You know we were compiling tapes of
Jake Dapper doing all the things that I
had just referenced. And I remember at
the time Jake Tapper always serving the
Democratic party in these ways. And his
initial response was to send out like
publicists to try and you know plant
stories that I was lying that I was
manipulating media. There was one in the
Daily Beast one in the Huffington Post.
We actually attacking you post. Oh yeah,
they were pitching stories like Yeah,
there's, you know, they were in like
shitty liberal sites that no one like
Huffington Post and the Daily Beast.
There was a couple others. Um, but they
had pitched them like to the New York
Post and the Wall Street Journal, I
think, as well. Like New York Post got
in contact with me. They didn't they
didn't run it because it was so easy to
prove that. What was the allegation that
all of these incidents that I just
described and there were others as well
of things he did on his show were like
taken out of context or the video was
manipulated just like they did when
people saw Joe Biden wandering around on
that D-Day and had to be, you know,
redirected by Georgia Maloney or having
been taken off the stage by this. That's
the other thing. They didn't just deny
it. They attacked anyone who said it.
people in 2024 who were saying, "Oh,
look, Biden clearly doesn't know where
he is." Including at that event with
Obama, that big George Clooney
fundraiser. The Washington Post wrote an
article saying they were using it was a
new phrase, cheap fakes. Like, they
weren't exactly fake, but the narrative
was fake. And it was anyone who said Joe
Biden clearly is in cognitive decline,
if you look at him at these events, they
were called right-wing disinformation uh
agents. And as it turns out, George
Clooney ended up saying, the reason why
I wanted Biden not to run was because
the Joe Biden I saw at that event was
completely unrecognizable. He was like a
he was he has
dementia. And at the time when people
were saying like clearly he doesn't know
where he is being let off the stage by
Barack Obama. None of this was new. We
we this is what we had been seeing for
so long. The media affirmatively use
that disinformation term that has become
their weapon of deception and and
propaganda and smearing people who tell
the truth to
label all of that
disinformation. And so they were the
ones who perpetrated the fraud and now
they're pretending like they're the ones
uncovering it. It is so I think the
reason they don't get it is because of
that insulated bubble that they exist
in. They all do believe that they're
truthful, they're good, they're
benevolent, they're nonpartisan, and
that unfortunately there was no way for
them to have told the story because Mike
Donan was lying about it or Jill Biden
was keeping the truth from them. And so
what can they do? So here's a company
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distant beef
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merryweatherfarmms.com/tucker. I think
that uh kind of selfdeception is a
byproduct of the tribalism that really
defines DC. And it's like we can't help
the other side. Like there we're going
to start with the other side is evil and
anything that helps them we can't do.
Therefore, we're going to have to make
some accommodations that may include
lying. But it's not really lying. It's
in the service of a greater good. Oh
yeah. Which is what every person who has
ever done anything evil has said to
justify
it. I'm not an evil person. I'm not a
sociopath. I'm doing something that
seems evil, but it's for a greater
cause. The end is justify the means. I
mean that's the most basic yes basically
a moral statement you can have. And
that's since the emergence of Trump that
is all that journalism has become. Not
just journalism but so many academia, so
many different institutions have
renounced their core function, whatever
that might be, science. Yeah. in order
to devote themselves to this
monomomaniacal mission of stopping
Donald Trump and his movement. That's
right. And you know, Sam
Harris just whether through stupidity or
just like in like inadvisable cander,
you know, was the first one who came out
with the Hunter Biden laptop stuff after
he realized it was a lie and said like,
"Yeah, I guess this laptop was true, but
at the end of the day, I really don't
care. If they have to lie about it,
fine. the evil of electing Donald Trump
is so much greater. And he was the first
one to really candidly acknowledge what
they are all thinking, which is we'll
lie, we'll spread disinformation, we'll,
you know, hide things because the
destruction and fear that we have of
Donald Trump in power is so great that
anything we do to try and impede it is
not justifiable, but almost like morally
imperative. That is how most of these
institutions ended up reasoning and
that's why they've lost their credit.
We're all Dietrich Bonhaofer at this
point. Yeah. Well, it's very self-
glorifying too. Like we're on the front
line of fighting fascism.
What I mean this is such a tired
question, but I've never really gotten
an answer that satisfies me. What is I
mean I look at Trump and I'm like, you
know, this is not a radical person in
most ways. Why? And a lot of the things
that he says are things that the
Democratic Party was like officially for
10 years ago. Um, you know, less wars,
pay attention to the forgotten man, free
trade is kind of bad, right? Exactly.
Right. I mean, this these are not He is
not a radical right-winger as I would
have conceived of a radical right-winger
in 1998 or 2018.
So why why but the hive like reacted to
him like the devil does holy water just
like you I can't be near you. What what
is that? I still don't fully understand
it. I think it's two things. Uh one less
important though still not trivial which
is comportmentally he's just such a
radical departure from the way anybody
who has ever gotten close to the
presidency has conducted themselves. And
I remember so well the time I realized
Yeah, it's true. But like but once you
understand what that
is, you can put it in your proper in the
proper context and not go insane about
it. I remember the time that I realized
just how far gone the media was when it
came to this and like the political
establishment generally, which was
during the 2016 campaign when they kept
asking about like collusion with Russia
and collusion with Russia and all that.
And he said, "I don't know anything
about that. I have nothing to do with
the Russians." But hey, Russians, if
you're listening, they were asking him,
did you participate in the hacking?
Yeah. And he was like, I didn't have
anything to do with that, but hey, like
Russia, if you're listening, maybe you
could find Hillary Clinton's like 87,000
deleted emails,
which was obviously like a joke. Just a
joke. I have nothing to do with Russia,
but if they're such great hackers, maybe
they can f The media took that and they
for over a year earnestly pretended that
this was proof that he was in cahoots
with Russia because he submits hacking
requests to Russia. Like if you have
some like back channel secret
relationship with Russia, the way you're
going to like submit your request is by
standing in front of 130 cameras and be
like, "Hey Putin, this is my latest
hacking request. Go find those emails."
instead of like having a, you know, Don
Jr. meet in a parking lot with some like
Russian agent or whatever. I mean, but
the fact that they they they were
willing to they really thought that that
was a smoking gun and could not
understand how Trump jokes, how he uses
irony, how he like purposely
trolls was, you know, the time that I
realized just how far gone they were. I
think the bigger reason why they were I
think we've talked about this before
is I would say since the end of World
War II, maybe before that, but certainly
since the end of World War II, what we
have more or less is a continuity of
core Washington dogma on foreign and
economic policy. Correct. You have, you
know, on the margins things that make it
appear like the parties are so
different. They fight about abortion.
They do discrete abortion or culture war
issues, all of that. But on the question
of how power is distributed, on how the
US maintains global hygieny, on feeding
the war machine, on how our economic uh
system functions and who who it serves,
there is complete continuity between
Republicans and Democrats. Like those
permanent power factions in Washington,
the corporatism, militarism, don't care
at all who wins because their policies
prevail no matter what. You can vote for
whoever you want. You can vote against
it. You can vote for it. Doesn't matter.
It continues. Trump by necessity because
the Republicans had already chosen Jeb
Bush as their candidate. We all expected
it was going to be another Bush Clinton
race. It was going to be Jeb Bush and
Hillary Clinton. That was the assumption
that everyone
had. It Hillary would have lost had the
DNC not cheated for her. But they did
cheat for her. So she was the nominee.
But the only way Trump could break
through, how do you break through
against all the Republican money behind
Jeb Bush? You have to run against the
Bush family. to run against conservative
Republican dogma on both fin economics
and foreign policy. He ran against the
Iraq war. He ran against permanent war.
He ran against serving corporatism at
the expense of the the working people
against free trade at the expense of you
know ind like having an industrial base
and he became a kind of threat and Steve
Bannon was the architect of the time and
Steve Bannon's vision very much was that
like the Republican establishment is at
least as bad as the democratic
establishment and he was a threat to
disrupt this bipartisan continuity on
which power factions in Washington
depend and I think that's what made him
so anathema just so many different uh
factions. He was a challenge to the
post-war order basically like
questioning the viability of NATO. I
know which it's like walking into a
church and saying like we sure Jesus is
divine, you know, like that alone that
that actually changed my life when he
said that. I grew up around NATO. Grew
up supporting NATO unthinkingly. Never
thought about the good guys. 100% NATO
keeps the Soviets from rolling into
Belgium, you know, and like that's good.
What's why is that bad? Of course, we
love NATO. And and then he was like,
hey, but like the Soviet Union doesn't
exist anymore. That no one had ever in a
lifetime of in DC, no one had ever
mentioned NATO in a way that challenged
me to think about what it was or its
role until that. And he just said it
off-handedly. And I was like, NATO?
Really? He's against NATO? How could you
be against NATO? And that began a chain
of thinking that totally changed my view
of everything. So I think you're right.
It's dangerous to have people saying
stuff like that. I mean, you just you
what you want is per continuity with the
status quo. And like who was a more
reliable maven of the status quo than
Hillary Clinton? Yes. Or Joe Biden. And
so that's why they were so desperate,
including all, you know, all the neocons
and conservatives that you knew. So many
of them openly supported Clinton and
Biden. And many of them, like to this
day, like half the Republican Senate
caucus at least hates Trump, hates his
ideology, hates his policy. Oh yeah. You
really think Mike Browns voted for
Trump? I don't think so. I don't know.
But I'm just saying like those types.
Yeah. So can I just go back? I want to
ask you more about that in like the
place of neoconservatives and I guess
we're not allowed even to use that term
so think of a new term as I ask. Um but
before we get to that like you mentioned
Russia a couple of times and the hacking
and the subsequent leaking of those
emails from the DNC. Um who did
that? It's possible of course that the
Russians did it. Like sometimes you get
the official story and it's
possible, you know, I know Julian
Assange a long time. I know him very
well and what a good man. Oh, he's I
think he's like one of the heroes of our
lifetime. Totally agree. And not just a
hero, but like incredibly consequential
and just a decent person, too. And like
brilliant and courageous. Not without
his personality flaws, but often times
that kind of courage. I whenever people
used to complain about Julian's
difficult personality, let's use the
generous term difficult
personality, I would always say like who
do you think is going to go and like
spill the secrets of the world's most
powerful government? You think it's
going to be some like mildmannered like
gentle congenial person? No. It takes a
certain personality type. Yes. And uh
but in any event, he had insinuated
several times that it came from within
the DNC. He had raised the possibility
that Seth Rich was murdered because he
was the
leaker and it was Julian. It was
Wikileaks who ran those docs. It was
Wikileaks who received them. Yeah. But
who who shared them with the world? Who
then published them all. Exactly. So
it's not a small thing when the guy who
runs Wikileaks suggests something.
Correct. That
said, if you are the recipient of leaks,
as I've been many times, you don't
actually know who the kind of you're not
sure if the person bringing you the
leaks is the person who actually
engineered it. That could be a a cut,
you know,
gobetween.
And but at the same time, you know,
Julian is extremely smart. You know, I
talked to him this day. He's I think not
fully recovered. He'll never be. I mean,
after what he went through, but his
brain is, you know, just like a font of
insight
and I trust his judgment so much. You
can go back and look at stuff he said
and it proved to be so preient. I know.
And so when he says that I do think
Julian sees himself for good reason as
an enemy of the intelligence agencies in
the west. I mean that he is that. So
undoubtedly he did like seven and a half
years in confinement because of it.
Yeah. like n eight years in the
Ecuadorian embassy and then four and a
half years in the prison that the BBC
calls Guantan the the British Guantanamo
Mike Pompeo the head of CIA plotted his
assassination. So I think his
assassination, badgered the Ecuadorians
into lifting the asylum they had given
him and promised him and allowed the
London police to go in and you know
coerced, threatened, bribed the
Ecuadorians to lift that asylum, that
grant of asylum so that they could then
go in and Mike Pompeo on his like first
month as CIA director gave a speech
saying we're going to destroy Wikileaks.
It's time that they stop hiding behind
the first amendment. So he was very
serious about that. He Mike Pompeo
should be charged with plotting
someone's assassination. That's a crime.
You can't do that in the United States.
I mean, there's so many things Mike
Pompeo should be charged with, but we
know for certain that he was wanting I
mean, he was the CIA director thinking,
"Oh, now I get to murder people who I
want." Yeah. Who embarrassed me. Who've
never been who committed crimes. He'd
never been charged with a crime in the
United States when that until like until
2018 when when when they engineered
this, you know, obscenely baseless
indictment that they knew they never
wanted to bring him to the United States
to stand trial. He would never have been
convicted. They wanted to break him
psychologically and and physically and
they came very close to doing that. Um,
but in any event, so when Julian Assange
says something like that, part of me
knows that he views himself as an enemy
of the intelligence agencies and wants
to use the same methods they use, which
is sometimes you spread disinformation
for confusion. But I also believe that
he believes there's something to it. And
so we never had a real investigation
into to anything relating to Russia gate
at all because in the first term Trump
was you know that whole administration
was
commandeered. It was run by people who
were opposed to Trump's agenda for the
most part and part of the this new
administration is constructed to avoid
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below. What do you think the chances are
that those emails came from a DNC
employee?
Honestly, I don't know. I just I don't
like to I'm open to it. I'm I'm
definitely open to it, but I'm not going
to affirm it. I think it's very strange.
I got from an MPD Metropolitan Police
Department officer who was a friend of
mine, uh the fact which I've checked,
which is that the FBI immediately took
over the murder investigation. No. Why
would the FBI of a routine supposedly
routine random attempted robbery type
attempted robbery? Why would the FBI
take that over? Like is there a good
reason for that? That's bizarre. Yeah, I
know.
Um that's why I say I'm open to it even
though you're I you know that's been
something that is immediately branded
like such an obvious conspiracy theory
that the second you suggest that you're
receptive to it. But that's exactly when
conspiracy theories are often ones that
deserve attention. I don't know. an
American citizen got murdered in my city
and so I feel like I have an absolute
right to ask why did the FBI take that
over and what did they learn and like
what is that that's a totally fair
question they don't you know it's so
funny they set themselves up as the
arbiters of everything as the moral
arbittors for sure and you're like not
allowed to ask that question it's like I
live I spent my life in DC I know the
street he was shot on he's an American
just like me I have absolutely a
fundamental right to ask like and same
with Epstein why wasn't there a real
investigation into And like this seems
anomalous like what's the answer? Well,
you know, well, and then then the tactic
is by like the Ben Shapiers of the
world, the people who are the same like
the the people who have anointed
themselves to be the guardians of
official versions or you know, no
challenging any sorts of like why did
the USS Liberty happen? Those kind of
things like what what happened with why
was JF my favorite was why was JFK
murder? I don't care. It was a long time
ago. Yeah, it was so long ago. Yeah, it
was a long time ago.
Um and
uh the president got murdered at now is
just asking questions. They'll be like,
"Oh," it's like I don't know. I feel
like my job as like a not just a
journalist, but a human being and a
citizen is like I kind of want to be
asking questions. I don't want to just
be ingesting what I'm told because what
we've been told has been proven to be
deliberatized so often. Also, I like
people who ask questions. I'm
uncomfortable with people who make
declarative statements exclusively
because you actually don't know the
answer to most. Like I said, where where
do you think those emails came from?
Podesta's emails, DNC emails, and you're
like, I don't really know, but here are
the questions that I have. Like, that's
the honest answer. Well, also, you know
how many times, not just in politics,
where deliberalize happen, but in every
field of discipline, like physics and
chemistry and biology, everything,
linguistics, where a certain time
arrives and people believe they've
discovered an absolute proven truth and
by the next generation, it's completely
debunked. Yeah. Like if you don't have
and that's why I believe in the absolute
necessity of preserving the right to
question everything. That's the
scientific method. Yeah. And it's just
basic humility. It's like to think that
human beings have discovered
unchallenged truths that can never be
disproven and and that from here hence
forth you're not allowed to question.
No, I'm not accepting that from
anybody. H I want to print that and put
it on my fridge. I'll give you I'll sign
it for you. Good. Thank you.
Um, yeah. Okay. So, let me let me do the
eps. Do you want to do talk about the
epson files in relation to that as well?
Yeah, sure. I mean just because I just
wanted I just find the Epstein file so
fascinating
because all the people who are now in
charge of the government under Donald
Trump particularly Cash Patel and Dan
Bino at the FBI but others as well
throughout the government were over the
last four years everywhere in the media
on their shows on every other show
banging on the table demanding the
immediate release of all the Epstein
files. We're now five months into the
Trump administration. We haven't gotten
a single document that wasn't previously
published of the Epstein
files. The they made a humiliating
showing of pretending to release it when
they called those conservative influence
and they all waved around the binder.
Epstein files, oh my god, what was in
them? And then it turns out like
nothing. You know, just every document
that was in this binder was already
previous released as part of the
litigation or journalism that was done.
and the Pam Bondi's new excuse because I
mean I'm glad that there are a lot of
people in the Trump movement and the mug
movement who are not contrary to the how
they're depicted in some sort of cult
like they they hold these people
accountable like they want to understand
like we were promised these things like
why isn't this happening and so Pam
Bondi's excuse now is we have thousands
and thousands of sex videos of Jeffrey
Epstein having sex with minors implying
that it's obviously going to take a lot
of time to go through these videos and
therefore we have to be patient before
we get them. And it's like I don't care
about sex videos of Jeffrey Epste having
sex with children because we already
know that Jeffrey Epstein had sex with
children. That's kind of the reason we
know who he is. He's been twice charged
with that. Once convicted and then was
ready to be charged again. For me, the
two biggest issues are are there people
to whom he sex traffked minors um
because he was charged with sex
trafficking, but nobody has been charged
with being the recipient of that sex
trafficking. But the much more
interesting question for me is, and
there's a lot of reason to believe it's
true, is was he working with or for any
foreign intelligence agencies? There is
no way. They don't already have that
answer. Maybe the answer is no. Maybe he
wasn't working with any. You know, it
would be it would shock me, but maybe
that's their answer. Maybe their answer
is he was. Why don't we have those
answers? Like have FBI agents for
whatever reason go through those sex
tapes for the next 3 years. That's fine.
What stops them from releasing that
question that
for people who may not be as familiar
with the details? What leads you to
raise that question? Is there evidence
that suggests he might have been working
with a foreign intel agency? Well, first
of all, the source of his wealth has
always been mysterious. I mean, he
wasn't just very rich. He was living the
life of a multi multi-billionaire. He
had, you know, $50 million properties in
Manhattan and what, West Palm Beach and
New York. Bought that island, New
Mexico, flying around on a 747. This is
not just like somebody who's very
wealthy. This is somebody with
essentially unlimited resources, right?
Like Bill Gates type wealth. And one of
the ways one of the his primary
benefactors is less Wexner who is a
multi-billionaire somebody with whom he
worked closely. And I guess the argument
or the the the claim is he was a
brilliant strategist for how to save
taxes, how to save money on taxes. He
was like a highly competent accountant
basically. Yeah. Like a tax accountant.
That's tax account. They tell you how
like what strategies to use to save
money. So maybe Les Wexner valued him so
much that he gave him, I don't know, $3
billion. In general, billionaires don't
like to give money away that they don't
have to. Maybe Les Wexner is like super
generous. Like, oh, so gratefully to
Jeffrey Epste. Here's like $2 billion.
But Les Waxner has all sorts of ties to
like his main
non-money-making endeavor in life is
supporting Israel and donating to is to
pro-Israel uh groups and working closely
with the Israeli government. Jazane
Maxwell, who's now in prison as having
been essentially his right-hand man. Her
father, Robert Maxwell, who died in a
very mysterious way. He slipped off his
yacht.
Um, was a known MSAD agent. He worked
with the MSAD. He had very close ties to
Israel. We all know given a state
funeral. Yes. In Israel. Yes. And you
know when I did the Snowden reporting um
people there's a lot of documents that
we released that in just because there
were so many there not not not all of
them got the attention they deserved.
One of the set of files we released
described the intelligence relationship
that we have with Israel that the NSA
has with Israel. Israel is the number
one recipient of NSA technology and NSA
intelligence. We share more with Israel
even more with than we do with the five
eyes partners who develop this
technology. we give more to Israel, more
intelligence, raw intelligence about
Americans as well and more intelligence
knowhow, but at the same time the
documents that describe who are our
greatest intelligence threats, who are
our greatest intelligence adversaries,
who spies on us the most, who is capable
of spying out the most. Number one on
the list is Israel as well. Obviously,
the Israelis use, you know, some I mean
the the most dangerous spying programs
like Pegasus and others come from
Israel, are developed by Israel, are
controlled by the Israelis, by which I
simply mean to say that Israel uses
every weapon at his disposal, including
gathering incriminating information
about his enemies.
Some people have suggested that, oh no,
it's not Israel. It's probably the
Qatari intelligence agencies with whom
he worked. Maybe I maybe it was like
maybe it was Peru. Maybe it was like
Indonesia. People have said that Epstein
was working with the guitarist. Yeah.
That like what h like there's I want to
keep a list of people who make that
claim. Do you know anyone? Yeah. You I
mean it's kind of you know how like
Israel like supporters of like loyalists
of Israel and the United States are now
constantly trying to convince people
that the real foreign government that is
exerting extreme amounts of influence
over our politicians and our
institutions is Cotter. I find it
hilarious. always like, "You know what?
Let me know when Congress starts passing
on a weekly basis pro- Cotter
resolutions or when like students are
being uh expelled and deported because
they've criticized Carter. Let me know
when like uh we start sending billions
of dollars a year to to Carter. Let me
know when all that starts to happen.
I'll be receptive to the fact that maybe
Qatar." But anyway, all I'm saying I'm
not saying it's Israel. I'm just saying
the the the the the nature of what
Jeffrey Epstein was doing, the amount of
wealth that it that that it required,
the number of the most powerful elites
on the planet who were with him, who
were involved with him, who were at his
island who despite knowing that he had
been convicted in
2010 of uh having sex with minors,
hiring prostitutes who were underage who
continued to consort with him in the
most, you know, proximate ways.
something was going on there. It would
be incredibly valuable. He kept, you
know, he had he had cameras in every
part of his house. He had tapes of
everything. Obviously, that would be of
immense value to any foreign
intelligence agent and American. I mean,
he was he was close friends with Bill
Burns.
maybe domestic intelligence agencies as
well, but how like it really is starting
to inflame my suspicions a great deal
every day that goes by when we're not
getting that information. Particularly
because the people who have it are the
people who spent years demanding its
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Tucker25 for 25% off. Two facts, data
points as they're now called that um
suggest to me that something's up. One
is the fact that Epstein was represented
um in his first tangle with the
authorities in Florida u by Bill
Crystal's lawyer uh Jay Lewitz and who I
know. Uh and the second is the statement
by Alex Aosta which I think maybe is at
the top of your memory about why Epstein
got off so easily. How is this not
talked about every day? Okay. So, in
Florida, in the United States generally,
having sex with minors, hiring, you
know, using minors as as prostitutes is
considered like a pretty terrible crime.
Yeah. Yeah. You know, most people agree
on that. Yeah. You don't really have to
debate that. That's considered like
something that deserves huge amounts of
jail time and typically results in huge
amounts of jail time. Jeffrey Epstein
barely went to jail for that as part of
a plea bargain. They had enormous
amounts of evidence. It wasn't a
question of could they prove his guilt.
They gave him a plea deal. A plea deal
where he spent like six seconds in jail
and then like most of the time at home
doing community service. And Alex Aosta,
who was the US attorney for for the
Southern District of Florida at the
time, which was was in charge of the
case. That's where Epstein was,
ultimately ended up in the Justice
Department and other roles inside the
government. And so he was constantly
asked, "Why would you give Jeffrey
Epstein such a like generous plea deal
that nobody would ever get for those
crimes?" And he ended up saying, "I was
told that he's intelligence and
therefore leave him alone." That's what
Alex Aosta, the prosecutor, says that he
was told about what he should do with
the Jeffrey. Like, leave him alone
because he's intelligence. Well, there
were we're just kind of the conversation
just like ended like we know now. If the
prosecutor says the federal prosecutor
in Florida says that, then I think we
can assume that that's true, right? So
why don't we know what that means?
That's what, you know, like what would
be the reason that people inside the
Trump administration who have long
expressed vehemently, vocally at the top
of their agenda demands that the Epstein
files be released, why are they not
telling us that information?
I I think the net effect of this is to
drive everyone insane and to make
everyone like angry and suspicious and
paranoid and conspiracy-minded. I do
think that it's like you expect that
we're going to hear the truth and then
it's like, oh, by the way,
no. Everyone assumes the worst. I mean,
why wouldn't you assume the worst? That
improves American society. The thing is
like you know I whenever I talk about
independent media including from people
who are supporters of it believe it's a
positive development they all say oh but
you know there's so many conspiracy
theories that end up being cultivated
and spread that people embrace and
that's true. Yeah of course it is.
There's been a lot of conspiracy
theories embraced by the credible legacy
media as well. I mean it wasn't like
Reddit that convinced Americans Saddam
Hussein had an active nuclear weapons
program or that Joe Biden was the best
version ever, right? or that like the
North Vietnamese were the aggressors in
the Gulf of Punkin, right? That came
from like CBS and Walter Kankhite and
the New York Times. But in any event, of
course, there's going to be Americans
who are now amendable to every
conspiracy theory because what have we
lived through? The Iraq war, the 2008
financial crisis, all of the lies from
911 itself. And then if you go back
further like the Vietnam War, but then
also COVID and like one after the next
at best massive fundamental systemic
failure on the part of all the
institutions we were taught to trust and
probably at worst and probably more
accurately overwhelming deceit and lies
and falsehoods and propaganda
continuously disseminated by them in
order to facilitate what they wanted.
What is going to happen to a society
where people lose faith and trust in
institutions? Not because, you know,
charlatans are on the sidelines
encouraging them to make that happen,
but because
rationally those institutions no longer
merit trust or faith. If you lie too
much, I don't believe you. Kind of
basic. So, the only antidote to that is
is transparency. Is revealing the truth.
And I I really worry right now
especially that this is hardening
people's cynicism and rage and uh and
really at some point nihilism like
nothing is true. That is the conclusion
a lot of people are going to nothing is
true. I don't believe anything like it's
all fake. Well and also you know Cash
Patel and Nan
Majino are people who were among the
most popular among the MAGA base. I
mean, these were the people like among
the most respected. I mean, Dan Bino's
show on Rumble, a platform that still
maybe like 30 40 maybe even 50% of the
people in the United States have never
even heard of, was getting bigger
audiences than almost every daytime
cable show.
Cash Patel, you know, the surge of
support for him when he was nominated to
lead the FBI was massive because people
thought, "No, that's who we need to like
get in and root this out and clean it
out." And I believe that they there I
believe there is something to that. I I
think they are authentic and genuine in
that way. But at the same time,
something is constraining them. And so I
asked myself, what kinds of
truths would people be determined to
hide who are more powerful than they
are? And when it comes to the Epstein
files, I continuously zero in on that
question
of who was he working with or for whom.
And I can see people in government not
wanting that answer to be disclosed just
like the same reason we didn't have the
JFK files and still don't. We still
don't for 65 years. I know Bonino well.
I think of him as a friend. I think he
is a man of integrity and and I think
his integrity remains pure because of
his rage. Like Dan's mad at lying. And
so I do I don't know what's going on um
at all. He and to be clear, he said I
know that Epstein killed himself cuz
I've seen the evidence. So I'm pretty
confident in the in the case of Dan
Bonino. I don't even mind that. But then
the question still becomes like they
said they know how their their
supporters are going to react to that,
right? And they were among the people
raising doubts about whether Epstein
killed himself. I'm not that I'm not I
it wouldn't shock me if Epstein killed
himself. Like you live a life of great
wealth and then suddenly you know you're
going to spend the prison spend your the
rest of your life in prison. It seems
odd to me that you can go to a federal
prison and kill yourself. Like there's
not safeguards against that. But
whatever. Think things that are run by
the government failed. I'm not
suggesting that they're lying about
that, but even there they're saying
like, look, I promise you we read the
files. He killed himself. So then my
question is, well, why can't we read
those files? Well, that is my that is my
question too. And um I would just say in
the case of Bino, I know Cash Patel, but
I'm not like a friend of Cash Patel. I a
friend of Bonos and I do think that will
come out. But I think big
picture DOJ is making a huge mistake,
huge mistake in promising to reveal
things and then not revealing them. And
that gives the whole country a kind of
moral blue balls at that point. And it's
bad. It's really bad. Like it's going to
that's going to cause a lot of hate. And
second, I think that we underestimate
the physical threat that people in
Washington face. It's always like
blackmail or ideological affinity that
gets No, people are afraid of getting
hurt. I do think that's a comp I mean I
know that's a component here. I mean
political assassination, political
murder has been going on for as long as
politics have. And the JFK case is an
example of the president of the United
States having his head blown off.
Exactly. Exactly. And you think that
that's not ever present or constantly
present in the minds of people in
Washington. They killed the president,
got away with it for over 60 years. So
like clearly there are forces that are
above justice. Oh no, don't worry. Lee
Harvey Oswald was killed and Jack Ruby
went to prison.
Jack Ruby. The whole story is Jack Ruby,
by the way. The whole story is Jack
Ruby. I mean, he just walked up to the
person they hadundred and just shot him
in in the stomach. And there's no
evidence he even liked the Kennedys.
There's zero evidence. He never
campaigned for them, never gave them
money. There's not one person who's ever
come forward to say, you know, Jack Ruby
was passionately attached to JFK. Not
one person. Right. So, like, what was
the motive there? He was clearly sent
there to silence Lee Harvey Oswald. So,
by whom is the obvious question. There
are very serious indications by whom,
but whatever. I don't know. But I don't
know why everyone spends all this time
on Lee Harvey Oswald when the key to the
story is so clearly Jack Ruby. Yeah. I
mean, and this is I think we are so
indoctrinated to believe that this sort
of thing happens in other countries. is
like how much think about how much we've
heard for example about Putin and Nvani
right and we're all supposed to like
obsess on the idea that in Russia you
know if you get too much influence or
you become too much of a threat to
somebody you get killed or imprisoned
the funny thing is Putin didn't even
kill Nalli I think everybody the CIA
says that so like no exactly there's no
yeah exactly after months of course
making it obvious I got blamed for his
murder I was in Russia when he
died remember that timing you were going
to go you had big Putin interview and
then like two days earlier Putin killed
Nani and you were like uh there with
Putin. No, but that's a big part of how
that propaganda works. I you know I grew
up thinking that like these kind of bad
things happen. They just don't happen in
our country. It must be cool to live you
live outside the country famously
where you know you're a foreigner living
in a country you've been a long time.
You speak the language you're engaged in
the politics so you're like part of it
but you're also from the United States.
So you're not coming at it with that
baggage. You can see you're just like
you don't lie to yourself about what it
is. Yeah. I do think
I think one of the great one of the
things which for which I'm most grateful
is that I was never embedded in the DC
political and media scene and obviously
you removed yourself from it which is
why we're here and not in Georgetown. It
didn't help me being a part of that at
all.
I'll tell you there's
a I've had a friendly relationship with
Alex Thompson for a while. I've been,
you know, Joe Jake Topper's co-author in
that book. Former political reporter.
Yes. Who now works at Axios. Y and I've
been very aggressive about praising him
like going back two years when he was
one of the only ones working for these
news outlets who was on the story of
Biden's cognitive decline and getting
mauled and attacked by the entire
Democratic party. I was often praising
him and defending him. You know, I mean,
I wouldn't say we're great friends, but
you know, he like sent me a copy of the
book with very nice words. And so, when
I go to attack Jake Tapper, which is
essentially attacking that book, of
course, there's a part of my brain that
like, you know, thinks about like, wait,
what is that going to do to my
relationship with Alex Thompson? And
then you have to be like, I don't care.
But
if you that is your life you know
because I mean Alex Thompson is not like
an important close friend of mine but
like if you live in Washington and every
your whole social scene is integrated
into that is why there's no adversarial
relationship between the media you know
funny so funny
Jake Tapper and Alice Thompson were on
that shitty PBS show that is now hosted
by Jeffrey Goldberg. So can you imagine
Jeffrey Goldberg as a PBS show? Yeah
it's like the week in Washington. I I
didn't Jeffrey Goldberg host a TV show.
Yeah. Um on PBS like the week in
Washington I know I know you can't find
anyone less telegenic but anyway he is
the the person sits there like uh
anyway Jeffrey Goldberg was defending
the media saying like I think it's
outrageous that we're being blamed for
this whole thing with Biden and
cognitive decline when there was nothing
we could do. And so at the end he said
to Jake Tapper like what is the lesson
that we have to take from all this? And
Jake Tapper was got very serious. He
like furred his brow, but he only like
looked down at the table cuz he just it
was a very weird thing like he's just
kind of, you know, he's on television
every day. You know, you'd look up, you
talk to people, you
engage firm and he said,
uh, what I have realized is that you
cannot trust what people in power tell
you. People in power lie. And when they
tell you things, you have to take it
with skepticism. You cannot take it on
face value. So Jake Tapper at 56 years
old after 30 years of jour working in
journalism has discovered what if I were
to teach college freshman a class on
journalism would be the thing that I
would say on the first day about what
the job is, right? Like why it's
important to have journalism because
people in power lie to keep their power.
And this is something that now that
Trump's in office, they've suddenly
discovered is an important thing to do
to be adversarial to people in power.
And I think that is in their mind like
there is an element of truth to their
revisionist history that makes them the
victim. Like they are friends with Mike
Donan and like Anita Dunn. Their kids go
to school their same schools. They live
in the same neighborhoods. They intermar
you know like half these couples are
like one in the media, one in politics
and then the ring door. They constantly
switch and they're at lobbyist firms
together. Washington is like, you know,
Versailles.
And so it's impossible to be
adversarial. Man, we had dinner without
naming names, but with a journalist last
night. You and I did here, who I don't
I'd never met before. Nice guy actually,
but from DC, grew up two blocks from me.
Mother went to the same school that I
did. He went to the same schools as
everyone I know. I mean it's like if
you're from there you are connected to
every other person who's from there. Of
course it's but like to a much greater
extent than people understand just
physically. Yeah. It's like the British
court like totally incestuous. It's
unbelievable. Well, you know, this is
what I think I think a lot of times, you
know, because I've been a very harsh
critic of media corporations and the
like. People, you know, ask me like when
did this change or whatever. And I like
there's always been a lot of closeness
between the the the media and its
supposed heyday in the 50s with like J
with Muro and Kankite and all that. But,
you know, they were you look at Time
magazine and the New York Times, they
were outpost for US propaganda on
foreign policy during the cold war. But
I think you know there was a long time
when journalism was considered this
like workingass you know outsider
profession and the people who went into
it didn't want to be like wearing Armani
suits and you know going to dinner at
the White House and with like beless
celebrities. They were just like you
know workingass guys who just wanted to
like throw rocks at power. That's was
their personality. That's why they went
into journalism. And of course going
back even further like the first
amendment says you know all Americans
enjoy freedom of the press. It's there
was no such thing as like this secret
priesthood of called journalists like
professional. The press was literally
the printing press that everybody could
use and everybody did use. You'd have to
be a journalist to use it. It was just a
means of expressing and disrupting and
and informing and organizing and that's
what they protected.
And as huge corporations started buying
media outlets, you know, like
Westinghouse buys uh CBS and it's owned
by Biacom or Disney now owns ABC, you
know, that sort of thing, the
corporatization of of mainstream
media. If you think about the kind of
attributes that are required to succeed
in large
corporations, it's never being
disruptive to anybody who has authority.
It's conformity. It's um you know just
sort of being a good soldier for people
in power which is the exact opposite
attributes that make a good journalist
and the incentive schemes that
journalists are now encouraged to follow
to rise within media are the kind of
people who worship power who are who are
obedient to it. Exactly. And that to me
has become the most fundamentally rotted
apart. And that's why you know what
inspired me to get in journalism like
the the blogersphere of like the early
2000s which are like just all these
angry people on the right and left like
hating the media no credentials but like
seeing things that they weren't seeing
you know hating the Bush administration
but either from the right or from the
left hating the mainstream media same
thing. And it like you start realizing
like wow like this mainstream media and
politics is like a tiny little like
Obama once described it as you know like
well like John Boehner is supposed to
call me a communist but you know
everyone knows the reality is we just
fight within the 40 yard lines like
we're basically on the same team we just
the 40 yard line and you realize there's
this whole other space and way of
looking at things and it was really the
internet that gave rise to it which is
why the internet is and controlling it
and censoring it is the thing that is on
the top of their agenda because It's the
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We strongly recommend it. Why do you see
things? Well, I should just say I think
your mom worked at McDonald's, actually.
Yeah. I mean, I think which is like I
think which wouldn't be shocking if you
were in any other business, but I don't
think I know a single other person I
don't think I know a single other person
in our generation in media who can say
that. Yeah, I think like I do I mean
Richard Nixon had this as well. this
like you know I think Trump has it to an
extent too even though like Trump grew
up very wealthy but it was like outer
burrow wealth which is not looked upon
kindly by like old money in Manhattan
and then he comes into Manhattan and
started building gigantic buildings and
being all like flashy about it you know
and so he understood that he was looked
down upon by those people same with
Richard Nixon. Richard Nixon always knew
that like the intelligencia on the east
coast hated him, thought he was
disgusting. And I think if you grow up
feeling excluded from certain kind of
power centers, there's always going to
be a kind of resentment that you have
toward it. And I suppose in some way
that could lead to like a desperation to
be integrated into it. But I think more
often than not, and certainly my case,
it made me want to like deconstruct it
and show like the facade that they use
to glorify themselves, but the dirt and
filth that really lay underneath. And I
think that kind of distance really helps
with clarity of vision. I totally agree.
And traveling, you were saying last
night that you think that traveling is
one of the most expanding things you can
do. I had this uh I did that interview
with uh Alexander Dugan and I know
you've interviewed him too and I know
we're all supposed to hate him and he's
a fascist whatever. Uh but one of the
reasons I really loved him is you know
he's a philosopher and when I say I
loved him I mean I love talking to him.
He's a philosopher and I like that was I
know I sometimes I studied philosophy in
college. It was my obsession. I wanted
to teach philosophy. ended up being more
practical in law school. But thinking
about, you know, things in like terms of
their first principles and like always
needing a like rationale or a logical
train that gets you from the start of
your question to the end of whatever
answer you think you've embraced is very
important to me and just thinking about,
you know, like not being reflexive. So,
one of the things he said to me was he
said, "You know, I'm always accused of
being like a racist or a white
supremacist because I'm so devoted to
preserving Russian culture and Russian
civilization." And he said, "Actually,
the biggest racist by far are Western
liberals because they believe that their
way of being is so superior that every
single other culture should give way to
adapting itself to their way of life.
like the whole world should be
homogenized in their vision because
they're inherently superior. Like they
find a tribe, some ancient tribe, and
they want to immediately like mold it
into like Washington neoliberals.
And what he was saying was like what
makes the world valuable and interesting
and ultimately like the way you advance
and think about things is that you have
all these different traditions all these
different civilizations like Russian
civilization and Chinese civilization
and Muslim civilization and um you know
western civilization and preserving
those is what ensures that we have this
diversity of thought and it's like yeah
everything contributes something exactly
and so you are constantly told and maybe
this is universal when you grow up in a
society that your way of life is, you
know, we're always told like the United
States is the greatest country ever to
exist in the whole history of the world.
Like what a great coincidence for me
that I was born in like the objectively
greatest country to ever be on the
planet. Not just now, but all of human
history. And there are some parts of the
United States that I know I love and I
think are very uniquely valuable for
sure. But the more you get to know other
types of ways of thinking and you you
have this experience like some neighbor
has a politics different than yours and
you think they're crazy and then you go
and talk to them and you understand them
better. Yes. And then that makes you be
more open to ways of looking at things
that that to me is what you know like
intellectual vibrancy is is going to
places that you don't understand.
Hearing ideas that you were taught to
believe are crazy or evil or wrong. And
then you know when you talk to the human
beings who believe them you understand
that they actually have as much
conviction about it or as much rationale
for it as you do for yours. I just think
that's a beautiful sentiment and thank
you for saying it. So what you're really
arguing for is diversity.
Yeah. Like diversity like not the kind
that you know we've been told is
diversity where everyone thinks the same
thing but like they have surface level
diversity. The the Indian guy, the black
guy and the white lady all went to
Princeton and they're diverse. Yeah.
Like I remember this initiative where we
wanted to diversify our newsroom at the
Intercept and so we hired like a black
Harvard student whose parents were
partners at Goldman Sachs and then like
a Latino person who went to Yale and
their partners were at JP Morgan and
then like you know and that was like
diversity like everything but like
workingclass diversity or experiential
diversity you know the most like
superficial kind the most easily
accommodated kind. Yeah I do know very
much. So what did you think? So you
interviewed Duggan in Russia in Moscow.
What did you think of it? When was the
last time you were there? I had been
several times because I visited Snowden
and you know we in Citizen 4, the one of
the last scene of Citizen 4, the film
that was made about the Snowden uh our
our work with Snowden that won the Oscar
that Laura Po just directed was her and
myself going to to Russia to interview
Snowden about like a next sort of story.
Imagine, sorry Pardon interrupt. Imagine
a Snowden film winning an Oscar. Now, I
mean, at the time it was
uh we were we when we started winning
the all the awards and we did the whole
like award circuit and we started
winning, we were very shocked. Um
and at the time I remember after they
announced Citizen 4 as the winner of the
Oscars, it was Neil Patrick Harris who
was the host of the Oscars. we had gone
on stage and gotten the award and he
then
said Edward Snowden wanted to be here
but he was unable to for some sort of
treason you know like playing doing a
word play on reason but like with the
word treason and it's
like you [ __ ] idiots like you're
Hollywood you went through like the
McCarthy era you went through all these
things that you claim well he was told
to say that was yeah of course it was
part of the script um but it was a very
you know war is a brilliant filmmaker
and I think the it won because of the
quality of the film like and the drama
inherent in the story not be because the
politics of it were that we were
exposing spying programs developed under
President Obama largely almost entirely
but as you're so right this was before
Russia gate this was before you know
where anything connected to Russia was
considered no chance you wouldn't even
get it here I don't think it would even
yeah they wouldn't even consider it
right at this point so you'd been to
Moscow before but you were just there
this winter this spring just yeah a few
months ago two three months ago What do
you think? Well, I mean, you know, we
talked about this before, but like I
remember the first time I ever went to
Russia, I was so shocked by the immense
disparity between what I had been taught
to think what what Russia was like and
what I was seeing in front of my own
eyes. And you know, you can go anywhere
and like, you know, people come to
Brazil to Rio Janeiro and they only go
to the richest neighborhoods and they're
like, oh, it's but you know, there's a
whole undergirling of misery and
suffering that you don't see because you
don't go there. So, I'm very cognizant
of that, right? You can't go to a
country and spend like two days there
and be shown the best parts and think
like, "Oh, wow." Nonetheless,
it's not only beautiful, it's extremely
wellrun, it's clean. But the thing that
um you know that I felt like uh was most
present was the the richness of Russian
history and culture and tradition. I
mean, this is a civilization that has
been around for, you know, thousands of
years and that has produced the highest
in like literature and music and dance
and architecture and I mean it and has
been through like wars of of like and
like the most difficult kind and and you
just feel the heaviness of all of that
like the the the the greatness of it and
obviously I understand that there's
political repression there. I understand
that there's a huge all kinds of social
problems. I'm not denying any of that.
That's true everywhere, right? Uh pretty
much. But you understand why Russians
have this immense pride in their country
and in their
civilization. And so it didn't feel like
a gas station with nuclear weapons as
McCain said. Exactly. Right. I mean, has
there ever been an uglier thing that any
politician just a dumber I mean, and
McCain was dumb. I knew him very well.
Very low IQ. Totally Wasp. Hate to say
that, but it's true. Um, with good
qualities. He had good qualities, but he
was an idiot. But to say something like
that out loud is like there's just I
don't know. Like if you're an idiot,
keep it to yourself. A gas station with
nuclear weapons. I just Yeah. I mean,
what? Yeah. I mean, that's what I mean.
like you you know you're taught in
college even like the greatest
literature is like Toltoy and Dsttovski
who are the greatest novelists ever and
you know which is true. Oh I mean
undoubtedly and
also just the history like the role they
played in World War II and like the
Bolevik Revolution and the you know the
wars of the the 17th and 18th centuries
and then you know the like Moscow itself
and St. Petersburg even more so are so
you know beautiful and striking
overwhelming like in a way that like the
best Western European cities are you
know like the history of it the the
grandness of it
and so yeah I mean that you have to go
see things for yourself and you start
realizing how much you're con how much
you know that this this like when I
started writing about politics I'll just
tell you this quick story um I never
intended to be a journalist I didn't go
to school for journalism that was not
part of my my life plan in any way. It
was just after 9/11, you know, as I saw
these radical changes like to our civil
liberties in the name of fighting
terrorism, but also just the climate
became so repressive in terms of what
you could question, what you could say.
That's when I started feeling a need to
want to say things that I felt like
weren't being said. And when I started
doing that more or less full-time, it
gave me the luxury of going and looking
at things so that I wasn't being told by
the New York Times what a document said.
I was able to go spend the 3 hours to
read the document. And when you go and
do that, you have the like luxury of
that time, which most people don't have.
They're taking care of their kids,
they're working, etc. You you can't
fight propaganda if you don't, you know,
have the resources to do it, especially
time.
I started realizing how many things I
had believed and I had like a you know
high opinion of my intellect. I thought
I was like a high-end political consumer
you know I like lived in New York. I
like went to good schools. In many ways
that makes it worse not better. I have
learned that. Yes. Yeah. And so you know
just going back and I basically decided
I had to dismantle almost everything
because so much of it was just ingested
through no critical faculties. Why would
you want to dismantle your assumptions?
I mean, that's such a painful process.
It it it sucks, but why would you want
that? Why wouldn't you just say, you
know, I believe what I believe and
that's it? Like, I decided in college.
This is right. Right. This is like right
after 9/11 and the war on ter like the
Iraq war, which everybody was kind of
like, wait, what just happened? We just
went and did this massive land war, this
invasion on the other side of the
country, a country that had nothing to
do with 911 because we were told they
were somehow responsible based on
nuclear weapons and chemical weapons
they actually didn't have. Like
everybody at that point more or less was
starting to question and you know you
feel angry and betrayed when inside your
brain you're led to believe things that
are just false. Yes. And you want to
expunge it from yourself. if you want to
cleanse yourself of that. I I I think
that's a virtuous uh response. Well, I
think you've done that. That has been I
have. It took it took a little longer,
but yeah. And it was because you were so
much more immersive. A little more
painful. Yeah. I was right in the middle
of it. But um but a lot of people, you
know, didn't do I just want to call to
the attention of listeners how rare what
you did was. And that process of
self-examination, which is the root of
wisdom, um is is unusual. People just
don't want to deal with it. Like Jake
Tapper saying, I look upon my some of my
coverage with humility. Like that fake
kind of like Well, there's really
nothing more gling than fake humility. I
mean, that's the that's like metaphor
scripted scripted fake humility. It's
like because like the one thing you hope
is real is humility, but um it's not.
So, I got to ask you about something.
So, because of AI, I'm a little
suspicious of things I see on the
internet because is that could that
really be real? So, someone sent this to
me the other day. This is a person who I
I confirmed is a real person. I didn't
believe it at first. Congressman Randy
Fine of uh of Florida, and he said this
the other day on Fox News last week.
Quote, "In World War II, we did not
negotiate a surrender with the Nazis. We
did not negotiate a surrender with the
Japanese. We nuked the Japanese twice in
order to get unconditional surrender.
That needs to be the same here in Gaza.
There is something deeply wrong with
this culture and it needs to be
defeated. So, we're going to nuke Gaza
because of its culture. We're going to
kill everybody because we don't like the
culture. Which, by the way, lots of
Christians in Gaza, Muslims in Gaza,
just innocent people in Gaza of all
kinds, of course. But like to say
there's some like Gazin culture that's
cohesive, it's like what? But we're
going to kill them all because we don't
like their culture. And so, I didn't
believe that was real. I didn't really
think he was a member of Congress. I
texted a friend. He's newly elected like
in the last he filled Matt I think Mike
it was Mike Walter or Matt Gates's seat.
One or the other. It was Waltz. I think
Walts. Yeah. So I texted a friend of
mine in Congress. Is this really a
member of Congress? Yes. It's like I
don't even know what to say to that. But
that first of all it's it's evil. But
how can you say something like that and
not get expelled from Congress or the
Republic how can that person be a member
of the Republican party? I don't
understand. So let me let me say two
things about that. Uh and yes, Randy
Fine is very real. I've been watching
him for a while now, ever since Trump
endorsed him as this America First
candidate. He had served in the Florida
Senate, in the Florida legislature,
maybe the Florida House, but one of
those two bodies. He was he was a member
of the Florida uh hates Dantis hates
him. He hates Dantis. He like has a feud
with Dantis and his
entire political existence is centered
around a foreign country, which is
Israel, not the United States. He barely
ever talks about the United States. So
that's America first, right? America
first. So let me just say two things.
One is this broader point and then I
want to get the more point more
important one. I started noticing this
in like 2006 2007 and I know you hear
this all the
time. World War
II was one of the worst things that has
ever happened to humanity. And the
reason it happened was because you had
these massive military powers with these
new technologies that had never
previously been used in war engaged in
mass destruction. And a madman who
was leading and had started the war for
all kinds of reasons. And you had the
world's most powerful factions
throughout the world destroying each
other in the most inhumane way to the
point where we not only used nuclear
weapons, but after the war was over, we
decided we never wanted to have a war
like that again. We we imposed by
convention. We agreed to all sorts of
limits through the Geneva Convention and
all these other treaties and
conventions, ways to make sure that what
happened in World War II never happens
again. the the people who got blamed for
it, it was a form of victor's justice at
Nerburgg were put to death. But at the
same time, the Nermberg trial, the the
judges and prosecutors said the only way
the principles that we're pronouncing
here at the Nerburgg trials will have
any value as anything other than
victor's justice is if the principles
were annunciating apply to all countries
in the future, including the part the
countries presiding over the tribunal.
It was meant to inunciate universal
principles that all countries agreed to
on earth because it was so inhumane like
it just stripped everybody of their
humanity. And yet so every time we have
a new war or someone wants to sell a new
war in the United States, the only
historical framework that they'll use as
if they only studied one thing in in
high school and college, like the only
thing they know is World War II. And
either you're on the same nothing about
World War II, by the way. No, but they
know all they know is that the Wikipedia
version Church Hill is good because he
went and fought and Chamberlain is bad
because he tried to use diplomacy. I
wrote an article about this when like 6
months after I started writing about
politics in 2006, how everything was had
like superimposed on it was the the
framework of World War II and you are
either Churchill or Chamberlain and you
choose one or the other. are neocons to
this very day. By which I mean people
who always want the United States to go
to war in the Middle East and elsewhere.
The minute you say you're not interested
in war, you're Chamberlain. And the
minute that you want to go to war,
you're heroic Churchill. And so the idea
that because we use nuclear weapons
against Japan, Imperial Japan, filled
with enormous amounts of skill and money
and knowhow and a massive military force
allied with Nazi Germany, one of the
most industrialized military forces
ever, that because we ended the war with
nuclear weapons, then we're supposed to
now use it on a completely defenseless
population of 2 million people, half of
whom are children who have no army of
any can't even break out of Gaza, let
alone threaten any other country in the
world, is absolutely demented. But that
is one of the clear war propaganda
themes that are always used is
everything is World War II and that's
the only word that we can reference.
Even though at the time the idea was we
have to prevent all this from ever
happening again. They want to replicate
it eternally. But I don't know that I
can support a party with someone like
Randy Fine. I I don't understand like
how could someone Randy Fine I mean
that's so disgusting. It's demented.
It's it's that is that is that is
psychotic to say that. Does anyone say
that but about Randy Fine? Well, here's
I think I think Randy Fine is such an
important uh despite his how repulsive
he is uh ethically, morally and
physically. Despite that, I think he's a
very important instrument for looking at
this radical contradiction within the
Republican party and especially the the
America First movement. So Donald Trump
in obviously there were a lot of
Republicans who wanted to run for that
Mike Walt seat for the M Gates seat and
whoever Trump endorses is get
essentially guaranteed to be the winner
and he endorsed Randy Fine and said
Randy Fine is all America first and I
remember the day that that happened
thinking Randy Fine actually is not even
concerned about America let alone
placing it first. His entire political
existence is driven by loyalty to a
foreign country. Everything for him is
Israel.
Everything. And to to like even to an
extent that is very severe for a
Congress that in general prioritizes
Israel to a shocking amount. I can't
think of a foreign country that is as
important to as Israel is to the United
States that has any other kind of
foreign country placing its interest on
par with if not above it. And so here
you have a member of the Republican
party who identifies as America first,
who Donald Trump endorsed as a member of
America first, and whose loyalty is to a
foreign country, who wants to have the
American worker fund that foreign
country, wants the American worker to
pay for their military, give $4 billion
automatically every year in a deal
negotiated by Obama and Netanyahu when
Obama was on his way out. And every time
Israel wants to have a new war, we send
them whatever they want, billions more.
We feed them all these weapons paid for
by the American taxpayer. We isolate
ourselves from the rest of the world. We
block every UN resolution that the
entire world supports in order to tie
ourselves to Israel. We lose our own
standing, our own soft power, our own
imagery in the world. We lose massive
amounts of money. All sorts of people
have said that the reason we have
there's so much anti-American hatred in
the Middle East. reason
why people want to attack our country,
the reason why we can't get things done
in the Middle East, a a region where we
have a lot of interest, is because of
the hatred for the United States driven
primarily by our standing behind and
doing everything for Laden said that in
his manifesto. He's spelled it out. I I
just can we just talk one second about
the fact
that Bin Laden wrote a note to the
American people explaining why al-Qaeda
was driven to attack the United
States and there were some religious
references obviously because al-Qaeda is
a nominally religious organization but
overwhelmingly he listed very specific
grievances with American foreign policy
all having to do with the fact that we
constantly interfere in that region. We
place military bases on sacred Saudi
soil. We imposed a sanctions regime on
Iraq for years that killed 500,000 Iraqi
children that Mad and Alite Albreight
said was worth it. We overthrow their
leaders and impose the ones that we want
that then serve the interests of the
United States and Israel. And we fund
and arm Israel to repress and kill
Palestinians. And he said that it's not
that you're some country that's just
sitting there peacefully and that never
bothers us and we decided, hey, look
over there. They let their women wear
bikinis so we better go and attack them,
right? Like we were attacked for our
freedom. So he writes this letter. I
remember the letter at the time. He was
interviewed by uh Al Jazzer and
previously by
uh by the New Yorker. Uh so we got to
hear from Osama bin Laden. Although
right after 9/11, the US government told
media outlets, "Do not broadcast any
speeches or interviews with Osama bin
Laden." And their reasoning was, "We're
concerned that he may have embedded
within his speech some sort of secret
code that will activate sleeper cells
inside the United States." Like he was
going to blank Morse code or like have
secret phrases and then people inside
the United States would hear it. They
told ABC, CBS, NBC, Fox, CNN, do not air
any interviews with Bin Laden. When of
course it was because they didn't want
Americans to hear from Bin Laden why
there was so much anti-American
sentiment. It was because of our
interference in the Middle East in
general and our support for Israel in
particular. They were selling this lie
that it was because we're free and they
hate our freedom. There are a lot of
countries that are free. Like Brazil,
women walk around in bikinis. They have
elections. Al-Qaeda has never attacked
Brazil or Japan or South Korea or
Norway. And Bin Laden was explaining why
there's so many Muslims in that region
who hate the United States. But the
United States government didn't want
anyone to hear it.
20 years later while October 7th
happened and we're supporting this uh
ethnic cleansing and I would call it now
a genocide as well in Gaza. That's what
most uh genocidal experts including
Israelis and Jewish ones call it and
it's hard to say anything else but
whatever.
In the middle of all that, a bunch of
young people who were told the history
of 911 that the US government wanted
everyone to believe discovered the Bin
Laden letter because it was on the
Guardians website because Guardian is a
British newspaper. It was not no no
American news outlet despite its
historical importance. And they started
passing it around on
TikTok and saying, "Oh, wow. I I never
knew any of this. I never understood
that one of the reasons why these people
attacked us was because we are so
monommonically devoted to Israel and why
that we're constantly interfering in
that region, bombing them, sanctions,
overthrowing their government,
overthrowing their leaders. What of
course people are going to get angry at
us and want to attack back. And the
minute that letter started to become
well read by the American people who
were, you know, primarily younger, the
US government went ballistic and
demanded that Tik Tok ban it. The
Guardian, a news outlet, immediately
took the letter off their website so
nobody could read it any longer. All
those links that people were posting on
Tik Tok to go read that letter would no
longer work. And then Tik Tok
immediately under pressure from the US
government which was obviously already
threatened to close Tik Tok and ban it
from the United States anyway started
banning all the hashtags. Bin Laden
letter you could not anymore read or f I
mean this is like the stuff we're taught
that the Soviets did right like hiding
letters hiding documents erasing
history. And I continued to be shocked
by that by that event that everybody
thought that that was fine to take a
letter that is of great historical
importance. Yes. Ex from the person that
is alleged to have been responsible for
the single worst attack on American
soil. Maybe on par with Pearl Harbor,
but in terms of like a single day
casualty
count, explaining from his perspective
why he did it. Like you want to hear
from your enemy, right? Like you want to
understand like what they're I want all
relevant information and I'll decide
Yeah. Yeah. You don't want people
deciding for you what you can and can't
read. Yeah. They were
petrified that young Americans were
going to hear the reasons profered and
they made that letter disappear. Why
would The Guardian, which is supposedly
like this left-wing British publication,
like why would they go along with that?
The Guardian is very, you know,
supportive of the Western establishment.
The UK is aggressively supportive of
Israel, always has been, finds it with
arms, does a lot of reconnaissance
fights over Gaza to feed the Israelis
intelligence. And when that kind of
pressure comes to bear, Tik Tok, a
gigantic multi multi-billion dollar
corporation, The Guardian, one of the
oldest newspapers in the West, they fold
in a second. Like, they're no match for
that kind of pressure. A pressure that
said, "We want that letter censored so
Americans don't know about it." that
have never read it, don't hear from it,
so they only hear from us. But so, okay,
so that was just a I I'm I'm still
amazed every time every like I didn't
mean to go into that because So, why do
you love Osama bin Laden so much? I
mean, of course, that's and then that I
I remember being shocked by it and
saying like, how can how can it possibly
be the case that we're watching this?
And it it wasn't there was no pretext to
it. It was explicit. Like, we can't have
people reading this. This is terrorist
propaganda. And then exactly if you
stand up and say, "No, I actually think
people should be able to read that." And
then they'll say like, "Oh, you're pro-
al-Qaeda. You want terrorist propaganda
to be to spread." I'm like, "No, I just
think adults should have all information
that they want to have available to
them, and I don't think the government
should be prohibiting certain
information from from being accessible."
Also, 3,000 Americans were murdered that
day, and I'm an American. I have an
absolute right to know every all
available information about that. I
don't understand by what what's the
justification for keeping that
information from me an American citizen
who faithfully pays his taxes and obeys
the laws that was born here. Well, you
know, but this is you can't do that. You
know, after the 2022 invasion by the
Russians into Ukraine, one of the first
things the EU parliament did is made it
a crime to platform Russian state media.
So, if you wanted to say, you know what,
I want to hear from Russia. I want to
understand like what Russia's argument
is for doing this, you you couldn't get
I mean, you could, if you looked hard
enough, you could. If you went to
Rumble, you could. That That's why
they're banned in France because they
refused to to remove RT and Sputnik.
Think about what that says. Like, we
want to make sure that we monopolize the
flow of information that our citizenry
gets. And nothing that disputes what we
want them to believe can even be heard
or available. I went to Russia because
it drove me I had no interest really in
going to Russia, but it it I'm so
grateful that I did, but it it drove me
so crazy that I wasn't allowed and that
Americans were not allowed relevant
information about what their government
was doing. Yeah. Like I want to hear
from them what their perspective is.
Like maybe I'll walk away and think
like, oh, they're they're they're
murderous, you know, imperialists who
just want to consume their neighbor or
or maybe there's some other way of
looking at things that I'm not permitted
in the West. I don't know what the truth
is. And that's the whole point of living
here is I get to know what the truth is.
I get to decide for myself what's true.
And if you take that away, then why?
Well, speaking of that, let me just
finish this thing about Randy Fine if I
could. Okay. So, yeah.
So, I like in 2022 and 2023. There were
a bunch of MAGA people who were opposed
to the funding of the war in Ukraine.
Uh, and some non-MAGA people too, like
RFK Jr. And I was obviously very opposed
to it from the start. You were too. I
went on your show many times to talk
about that and I had a bunch of them on
like Matt Gates and Marjgery Taylor
Green and RFK Jr. a lot of them and I
always had this same plan. I would ask
them like why are you opposed to having
the US fund the war in Ukraine? Like
don't you want the US to stand up for
Ukraine against Russia? And they would
all say this isn't our business. This is
on the other side of the world. It
doesn't affect my constituents. Our
communities are falling apart. We have
fentanyl addictions sweeping our
communities. Nobody has jobs. Nobody has
healthcare. Our country is falling
apart. We don't have the money to keep
sending to foreign countries. And it's
outrageous that we keep doing it. And
they would be very passionate and very
adamant. I would encourage them to keep
developing that idea. And they would and
they would say all those things with
which I completely agreed. And then my
next question was always, do you apply
the same rationale to the United States
funding the Israeli military and Israeli
society and Israeli wars?
and they would all stutter to try and
distinguish why it was that they had one
view for Ukraine and a very compelling
rationale but then had to say oh no
Israel is different to the point that
RFK Jr. And I actually really
appreciated this about him when I kept
pressing him about it. I said, "You're
saying we don't have money to put to
fund foreign wars that our country is
falling apart. Why are we sending
billions of dollars to Israel when
Israelis have a higher standard of
living than millions of American workers
than millions of American citizens? Why
is the American worker forced to
subsidize Israel? You said we can't be
doing that. We can't afford it when you
came to Ukraine. Why doesn't it come why
isn't the same applicable to Israel?"
And he then finally said, "You know
what? I'm going to think about that.
Maybe it is time for Israel to stand on
its own. I was like, "Oh, you think?"
So, this is the utterly irreconcilable
contradiction at the heart of the
America First movement, which is America
first means we use our resources for
oursel. We build our military to defend
our borders, to defend the American
people. We use our resources to improve
their lives materially, to build better
roads and better schools and better
communities, to offer them addiction
services and whatever else they need,
healthcare access. And we do not anymore
use it for this globalist agenda of
going around the world giving it to
other countries and funding other
countries. That is the America first
philosophy as Trump has articulated it
and many people have articulated it for
years and the foreign policy of America
first as well. Excellent. And then on
the one the other hand those same people
many are adamant that we have to
fund Israel. We have to fund its
military. We have to fund its wars. We
have to subsidize society. We have to
sacrifice our own interest to protect
theirs. We have to put the lives of our
service members in risk. Have American
citizens die in order to protect Israel
and the wars that it starts with its
neighbors. And there is no reconciling
this. There is no way to take an America
first
ideology and make it consistent with
this
constant prioritization of Israeli
interests. let alone what is now
happening which is the aggressive
erosion of our free speech rights and
core civil liberties guaranteed to us by
the constitution not to protect our own
government from criticism but to protect
this foreign country from criticism and
I do think there are people now starting
finally to understand that these two
things cannot be maintained
simultaneously well it'll it's going to
blow up the Trump movement I think I
don't think it needs to I I think
there's
a you know you could you could pivot,
but I agree just conceptually that those
are irreconcilable goals. They're so
blatantly irreconcilable. And of course,
the the the proof in the pudding is
going to be what happens with Iran. You
know, I woke up today, I'm here, and I
saw the New York Times, and the lead
story on the front page of the New York
Times is Israel may attack
Iran despite Trump's desire to reach a
deal. And it's like, how can that even
be possible? What do you mean Israel
might attack Iran despite Trump's desire
to reach a deal? Their weapons came from
the United States. We pay for the
operation of those weapons. They can't
attack Iran without some kind of
military and logistical support from the
United States. And who is Israel that
depends on the United States, that is a
vassal state of the United States
supposedly to say, "We don't care what
the president of the United States wants
in his foreign policy. we're going to
subvert it and undermine and blow it up
and destroy it if we want to. That's not
the behavior of an ally. And I think
that um you know, someone who's really
tried to avoid this topic and bears no
animist toward Israel actually like a
lot of Israelis talked to him the other
day. Uh but I think the idea that we're
getting a lot out of this, our interests
are being served is is not is clearly
not true. It's the opposite. Well, you
know, there's the Israeli government has
had a relationship, a close relationship
with the Chinese Communist government
for over 40 years, and there have been a
lot of transfers of military technology
from Israel to China, including
transfers of American military
technology to China. That's a fact.
People lie about it and it's not true.
Well, it is true, actually. And I don't
think that's widely known. I mean, the
Chinese help operate the port of Hifa,
one of the most beautiful ports in the
world.
wonderful place but yeah they're they're
in the port of FIFA. So how is it that
the main recipient of American support
both financial and moral and legal and
you know all the things that we have
done for our closest ally how is it that
that country is materially supporting
our main global
adversary a country really described by
the Trump administration as an enemy
okay that's their posture toward you
know China is an enemy and our military
technology is going to Israel and then
winding it China that's a fact like how
I don't think again I don't think most
people know that and I don't I don't
know even if people in the
administration know that I mean some do
how can that what is what's the answer
to that Mark Le well but well also you
know there's this fascinating history
but because it's 30 years ago a lot of
people didn't live through it people did
forgot about it it's been whitewashed
but the last two presidents that tried
to exert independence with respect to
Israel and that told Israel you cannot
do this if you want They continue to
receive our large ass were Ronald Reagan
and George uh HW Bush. Ronald Reagan
called the Israeli bombing of Lebanon a
holocaust. I know. And picked up the
phone and ordered them to stop and they
did and then withdrew the military
barracks after 1972. Exactly. George HW
Bush this and then and then our marine
barracks were bombed a year later in but
then he didn't go to war as they were
demanding he did with Iran Iran whoever
they he he said why are we even there
but but how did our American mil I mean
whatever without getting into this but
like did anyone know that the bombing
was coming? Is it possible that
information intel about that bombing was
withheld from the United States? I mean
the Israelis do have a lot of their
neighbors uh under extremely heavy
surveillance as you imagine they would
but the other interesting thing was in
the George HW Bush administration which
was run by these kind of realists like
that of the kind you know that they
didn't call it America first but the
idea was you know we do foreign policy
not for benevolence to other countries
we don't rebuild other countries we
prioritize American interests people
like James Baker and Brent Skraftoft
who were the key foreign policy figures
in the the Bush 41 administration. He
was in the CIA, had a very similar
foreign policy. And their argument was
what American presidents have always
said, which is that one of the worst
threats to American national interests
in the Middle East is the ongoing
Palestinian Israeli conflict. And the
expansion of Israeli settlements in the
West Bank was a direct threat to
American interests. And James Baker said
as part of the State Department policy,
if you continue to expand West Bank
settlements, which prevent an Israeli
Palestinian two-state solution that harm
our interests, we're going to cease
giving you the loan guarantees that you
desperately need. Why are we going to
give you loan guarantees if you're
directly harming what we keep telling
you are our interests? And and what
happened was there was this massive
smear campaign. You can go read it in
any newspaper. It was led by Bill
Clinton who was preparing to run against
George HW Bush calling the Bush
administration anti-semites calling
suggesting that they were inflaming
anti-semitism by disagreeing with Israel
in public. And since then there has been
president James Baker I mean this is
like one of the most respected you know
foreign policy operatives in the world.
And I hated James Baker for a lot of
what he believed at the time. I would
have to probably go back and and revise
some of that and think about why. I
mean, if only we had that now. But there
was like zero zero zero zero evidence
that he harbored any animosity. Well,
there's also evidence that there are
plans to commit violence against George
HW Bush, the president. Actually, that's
been incredibly alleged. So, whatever.
Um, no, of course you're absolutely what
you're saying is absolutely right. And
no one wants to deal with with being
slandered and and it is slander. It's
not true. It's unfair. But it's it's
like actually pretty over the top. Um
well the irony of it Tucker is they're
transferring American military
technology in China. If they're
operating at least in part the port of
Hifa, we're supporting you. You have to
explain that right away or else we're
going to stop all aid because why would
we want to be supporting why would we
want to be helping the transfer of
American military technology to China?
What the hell is going on? So what's the
what is the answer to why the Trump
administration given their views of
China doesn't I think that um the first
step well I'll just say my position is
probably different from yours but like
I'm not against Israel I like Israel
like going there like the Israelis nice
people I'm not you know don't seek any
kind of argument I'm not
anti-Israel but I think what America
lacks desperately lacks and it's gotten
to a point where it's dangerous for the
country is like an honest conversation
about any of this stuff. And that's
because certain ruthless actors and it's
coordinated online like attack everyone
is like a you know call them really
hurtful names um that affect your
personal relationships when you raise
these questions but like someone needs
to be brave enough to just say let's
have a rational conversation about our
national interest. I don't think it's
harder than that. But you know what the
irony of it, the core irony of it is?
The
conservative critique or grievance about
the American left over the past 20 years
has been the minute you try and have an
honest conversation about any kind of
policy, you instantly get smeared as a
racist, a misogynist because of identity
politics. Because of identity politics.
I don't know. And you may be suggesting
that something like that's going on
here. It might be a little bit similar
that the minute you like suggest a
question, let alone or even a peep of
criticism at Israel, you instantly are
branded an anti-semit. It seems pretty
similar to me to the tactics long used
by the American left that the
conservatives have been vocally
complaining about for a long time.
That's uh you know, Glenn, I would love
to shout you down and say that's unfair,
but it's not. That is fair. It's true.
What you're saying is true and it's I
agree and it's you know, shameful. So um
but you know the choice is not
between like being a Nazi or being Randy
Fine. The cho there is like a reasonable
sensible rational course forward where
our country like every other country
makes its foreign policy decisions on
the basis of what's best for its own
citizens. That's like like you can say I
don't think it serves our interest to
keep the war in Ukraine going and paying
for it without being a Kremlin agent.
Exactly. Or saying, I don't know, you
know, how is it good that American
military technology winds up in China or
Pakistani fighters that they receive
from China
um through Israel? Like, if that's true,
and I think I think there's a lot of
evidence that it is true, like, how is
that a good arrangement? And why is our
greatest ally doing that to us? I don't
understand. I'm like really confused.
Like, why don't you answer the question?
And it's not enough to call me names.
you should have to have an honest
conversation about this. And I do think
when that begins like healing begins.
Things get better when people can be
honest. I think I mean but there's so
many mechanisms like we just I I I just
I'm still every I know I've talked about
it so many times but my mind always gets
so blown when we talk about it again
talking about honesty and discourse.
They ban the Bin Laden letter. There's
so many mechanisms designed to prevent
of course any honest conversation from
being held about all sorts of policies
that people in power want to keep immune
from questioning or challenge um like
hey why are we still in NATO that's to
me the thing that turned that turn
people against Trump turn people in the
establishment against Trump more than
anything we already talked about that
but like that's not supposed to be a
questionable topic like why are we still
in NATO and like oh it's a defensive
alliance except like we bombed
uh Serbia and like Yugoslavia with it
even though they weren't actually posing
a threat to Western Europe and had
nothing to do with the Soviet Union or
like it went to war in Libya to remove
Mar Gaddafi because he wanted to start
using Libyan oil more for like the
benefit of people. Okay, Glenn, if I
could say it's a defensive alliance.
Okay, it was those were preemptive. It's
a defensive alliance.
It's a defensive alliance. Not to be
defensive. No, it's Yeah. No, I look, so
there all those mechanisms, including
like calling people racist for a long
time who wanted to raise issues about
whatever.
Well, sure. I mean, I remember this in
1991 when I got into this business doing
a story on Head Start. I've never been
against Head Start as an idea. The
original idea was like, we're going to
literally raise children's
IQ's through better nutrition and early
early childhood education. That is not a
crazy idea. It didn't strike me as crazy
at the time. And you start asking
questions. Well, does it work? I don't
know. It's supposed to help these kids.
Is it helping them? Shut up, racist.
It's like, how was that? I was so
confused and I realized no one even
remembers what Head Start is. But it was
a it was a very promising program in the
minds of many that didn't work. But the
point of calling you names was to
continue doing things the way they'd
always been done because some people are
benefiting from that. Exactly. It had
nothing to do with race. just as I don't
think this argument has anything to
necessarily to do with ethnicity or
religion. It's just like what's best for
Americans. The protest movements on
college campuses were I don't want to
say led by because that's maybe an
exaggeration but in many cases is accur
definitely true but in driven in large
part by Jewish students vehemently
opposed to the destruction of Gaza by
Israel. So the idea that somehow it's
anti-semitic to question either the
Israeli destruction of Gaza or the US
financing of it when you have huge
numbers of Jews on the streets every day
marching in protest against it by itself
should reveal how corrupted that that
tactic is. And yet it's it's just it
it's so effective because it's
instantaneous, right? No one wants to be
called a racist. No one wants to be
called an anti-semite. No. And it is an
effective tactic at least like it it
makes it so that you think like maybe
it's just easier for me to keep my mouth
shut about this and talk about something
else. I've always felt that way. It's
way easier. I don't want to get involved
in it. It's not worth it. Um I've got
all kinds of concerns about my country
which really is kind of falling apart in
key and measurable ways. Like people are
dying younger. I feel like that's
something we should think a lot about
and try and fix and everything. It's
like I don't want to get involved. And I
do grieve when I see our public
conversation hijacked by what I consider
foreign concerns. Like both sides, like
you know, you shut down Midtown
Manhattan because of some conflict
thousands of miles away. It's like we
Except it's an American war, though.
Well, that is that is it. But but it's
not just Israel. I mean, you you see it
all the time. You see people getting
murdered in like the upper Midwest
because of like there's a sick Hindu,
you know, whatever. All that stuff. I
just feel I do feel like this country
needs a lot of care and attention and
it's been neglected and that's how I
feel. So I or maybe that's how I justify
staying out of it. I don't want to be
involved in it. But you have kind of
been a little bit more involved than he
used to be and I think but also because
well it's going to destroy the MAGA
movement which I think is really
important. It's an a sense not just
about Trump. Of course I love Trump.
I've said that many times. I have
displayed it. I campaigned for Trump and
I'm glad that I did. But I feel like if
there's one thing that could destroy
this essential reform movement, it's
like kind of our last chance to make
government responsive to the people who
own the government, which is the
citizenry. This will destroy it because
it's a massive contradiction sitting at
the heart of it. Not not just that like
it's not all the stuff we talked about,
but also free speech, free expression,
not being punished for your views was
also a vital part of this movement. I
know that's what why I found so much
common ground with the American right
and with the MAGA movement over the last
10 years because of my vehement
opposition to attempts to censor the
internet or introduce laws to
characterize certain views as hate
speech and therefore punishable and
that's exactly what has been done and is
still being even believe it like when I
always like to Santis I spent a lot of
time in Florida I was there for part of
the pandemic and um and I like Dantis
he's smart you know he's not a warm guy
or anything but I don't you I'm not
looking for new friends. I like respect
his antis and he's very on it on the
details. Then he signs a hate speech
law. Travels to a foreign country to
sign a hate speech law in Florida. And I
was so confused. I didn't even think
this was real. And I said to somebody,
well that was a hate speech. It's not a
hate speech law. Looks like a hate
speech law. It looks like Sharia law.
Kind of a version of Sharia law in
Florida. Shut up. And no one said
anything about it. And then like all the
Dantis people start attacking me for
noting. I've never talked to Dantis
again on the basis of that. Like I don't
what is that? How can you do that in the
United States? I mean there there's
there's this attempt now to impose on
colleges, require colleges to adopt, but
also enact into American law this
radical expansion of what anti-semitism
means. Like there's laws that say here's
what racism is, here's what you know
xenophobia is, here's what Islamophobia
is, misogyny, whatever. to expand the
definition of anti-semitism to include
statements not only about Jewish people
who should be subjected to critique like
you should be able to say huh that Ben
Shiro seems to care quite a lot about
Israel maybe even to the point that he
cares about it more than the United
States like you should be able to
express that critique so this expanded
definition prohibits not only statements
like that accusing any Jewish person of
having greater oil you can have you I
can say oh that person's Irish he seems
to really care a lot about Ireland
more than United States or that person
is Indian. He really seems to care a lot
about India, maybe even more. So, you're
allowed to say all that or or in my
case, Swedish. I've been accused of dual
loyalty many times. Oh, you're you're
Sweden is so annoying and like very
disturbing. But the other thing is you
cannot say for this is just one example.
You cannot say Israel is a racist
endeavor. You can say Iran is a racist
endeavor. You can say Hamas is a racist
endeavor.
the United States is a racist endeavor.
You can say anything you you can be a
student at a at a school a month away
from completing your PhD with a
completely clean record and you can
write an op-ed saying, "I think America
is a country of violence and imperialism
and evil and was founded on racism and
you'll be totally fine." You write an
op-ed onetenth of those criticisms but
about Israel and ICE is coming to get
you and to deport you. Why is that? Why
is not just our free speech being
limited but being limited not even to
protect our own society and our own
government but to protect a foreign
government from
critique? I so this is the kind of thing
that cannot be sustained by a movement
that has certain values that it
professes that are being radically
assaulted by this one single policy and
loyalty toward this other country. I
could not agree more. I mean, it's and
no matter and I and I do think and I
know people who, you know, love Israel
and um believe in the project and it's
fine. Um I have a million friends who
who believe that and that I'm not mad at
them about it. But you could believe
that and say America's founding
documents, its bill of rights is
sacrosanked and under no circumstances
should American citizens be stripped of
their rights. Any circumstances, period.
doesn't matter whether it's in the
service of a foreign nation or or any in
service of anything. Like that's the
whole point of America. Like you could
have that position, couldn't you? I mean
there's the the whole MAGA movement is
about preserving American identity and
American values. So what does that mean?
It certainly has to include America's
founding documents. I don't know what
else it would include. I don't know what
else there is. Right? So if you cannot
simultaneously say that you want to be a
movement that is devoted to preserving
American identity and American values
while at the same time permitting
attacks on the core rights and the core
founding ideals on which the entire
country was founded. Right. Right. No, I
couldn't agree more. I'm for all my
really sustained efforts to just stay
away from the stuff. I don't want to
deal with it. It upsets people. It's
like not my greatest interest in life.
It's not even in the top 10. Um, and I
shouldn't have to care this much about a
foreign country. That's kind of like my
internal monologue on this question. I
feel like it's being pushed to the point
where it's an this whole species of new
stories, ideas,
uh, developments is a threat to to our
Bill of Rights. Like you and that has to
be the point where you're like, "No,
stop." Right. I mean, you know, I
I was said before that you go to other
countries and you see all these values
of other countries that you're told have
none. But I also said like there are
certain things about the United States
that I consider uniquely valuable. And
one of them is, you know, the stuff that
I went and studied in law school, which
I became incredibly enamored of and
still am, which are like the federalist
papers and the debates over like how to
form this new government to prevent it
from replicating the tyrannies of other
governments, including the empire, that
they had just risked all of their lives
to wage war from and gain independence
from and created these documents that to
this very day continue to be our guiding
principles. And the idea that we're
going to permit the erosion of those for
any reason is offensive to me. But to do
so in defense of a foreign country on
the other side of the world because they
have so much influence in our politics,
that is I mean that is just so offensive
to me. I don't care what impact it has
on my career. I don't care what people
say about me. Like that is something I
will never stop talking about. I agree.
And I think it's not it's not
sustainable cuz as you said it's the
contradiction is just too it's just too
obvious.
And and last thing I'll say is not that
it's like a top concern of mine or
whatever, but I don't think it's great
for Israel actually at all. Like
longterm, this is not the way to play.
Well, an Israeli politician, actually a
general just said Israel's on the way to
becoming a pariah state. Yeah, that's
not I don't know how that helps. And you
can't transfer American military
technology to China. I just want to say
that for the fifth time because I don't
think most people know that that's
happening, but it is. I want to ask you
one last question. Um, we had this like
long and deep conversation off camerara
about what makes people happy and there
does seem to be quite apart from you
know politics or global affairs like an
epidemic of unhappiness at least in the
world that I live in in the west in the
west not thank god in my family but
everywhere else people are really unh
it's measurable suicide rates all stuff
where do you think what is that what
well first of Well, there's a
documentary that is on Netflix that I
watched many years ago um called
Happiness, and it measures the rate of
happiness in various places around the
world. And it turns out that in some of
the poorest countries in the world, the
levels of happiness are at its highest.
In some of the richest countries of the
world, the rate of happiness is at its
lowest. And in many of those poorest
countries, they live in villages where
they have their children around them all
the time. Yes. They have extreme
connectivity and connection to other
human beings who live in their
community. They live in a communitarian
way. So they are constantly receiving
one of the things I might even say the
the the greatest thing that constitutes
human happiness which is connection to
other human beings. We are political and
social animals. We can't survive
isolated. You look at any people who
have been put in sustained isolation and
they will say that there's nothing worse
than that. John McCain talked about that
all the time that he was physically
savage, but that that was nowhere near
as, you know, as horrifying and
terrorizing as the sustained isolation
that he was kept in where you have no
human beings around to connect to or
talk to or interact with. We need that
so fundamentally. And you look at how
the west is now constructed where people
leave their house early in the morning,
both couples, you know, both parts of a
couple the children don't go run off to.
So everybody's running off in different
directions. Uh when our parents get
sick, we put them at homes. We don't,
you know, when they get old that we put
them in homes. We don't stay together as
families anymore. And then when we work,
we all go scatter far away and we spend
all day in cubicles. And then the worst
part is the internet encourages us to
stay at home. People got trained during
co especially how to live completely
isolated from the rest of the world and
from everybody else. They were forced
into it. And if you deprive human beings
of connection, then there you can have
all the money in the world, all the fame
in the world, all whatever you think is
is the thing that will make you happy
and you will never find happiness. And I
think we know we both know Yanahari uh
who's a friend of ours who wrote this
incredibly like I think revolutionary
book about how to understand addiction.
Yes. And and depression and sadness in
general, emptiness. Right. He then wrote
another book about just like the the
depression epidemic um in in especially
among younger people in the west. That
first book about addiction.
Uh the thesis of it was that people
think the opposite of addiction is
sobbriety when in reality the opposite
of addiction is connection. And by that
what he means is that all of these
things are spiritual diseases.
Depression and addiction and anxiety and
all these disorders that people suffer
from that are new. Like you you talk to
anyone in Gen Z. I have colleagues in
Gen Z. My kids are getting to that age.
You know they're 16 and 17. I see their
their their age group. There's so much
like mental disorder. It's because
society is not giving human beings what
they want, which is connection. And
that's why like the only you can go talk
to medical doctors about addiction and
they will all tell you the same thing
which is like there is no cure for
addiction chemically medically. The only
cure for addiction is going to places
like an A or A or whatever because there
you find this instant and immediate
connection based on with any kind of
human being based on shared experiences
and that's the only thing that cures
that disease because it's a disease of
the spirit like of the soul. It's not a
biological disease where chemical
medications will cure it. And I think
that the ability to be open to human
connection to have it readily available
is probably the foundation of human
happiness and the deprivation of it is
what will eliminate human happiness and
all of modern society is about keeping
people stratified and isolated and away
from each other. And you know, I think
there's like surveys that say, you know,
people who are in their 20s will say on
average they have like one friend at
most or like two friends at most that
they rarely see. People live away from
their family. Everything is about
depriving people of connection. Not
saying that was the intent or the plan,
but that's the outcome. And there's no
way to have human happiness without
connection.
I know that in my life the place where
I've seen it most clearly is in AA. I
haven't so over many years haven't been
AA ton but the first time I ever went I
was so struck by how what I was seeing
was kind of what people have talked
about but sort of presented an anat
replica of like true connection between
people from totally different
backgrounds, cultures, races. It was the
diversity we're always promised, but
like we're so cynical about I am so
cynical about it's all [ __ ] You go
to an AA meeting and because it begins
with stripping away with basically
ritual humiliation. Oh, I'm talking I'm
an alcoholic. It's like say that out
loud it hurts even if it's true which my
case is. And like the first admission is
like I am powerless. That's exactly
right. like you're to confess your
impotence, but you have to confess it.
And once that that strips away all the
pretense and then you like you
experience people on a level that church
promises, but I I personally have never
experienced in church. I want to, but
where it's just like you are dealing
with people on the most human level,
like all that matters is the other
person's soul or something. I don't
know. I you know it's like the the new
the new pope and like this is the part
of Catholicism that I really admire so
much like the ethos of the gospels you
know Jesus always wanted to minister to
the like the lepers and the prostitutes
and the outcasts even though there was
no necessary like common bond between
them other than their humanity which is
what the gospels teach you to to uh
basically think about the world as as
being about is human connection as as as
as the ability to look at the lowest
people and see their soul, see that
they're all equal before God, all of
this. Exactly. And one of the things
diversity does like diversity in this
like modern corporatized HR sense is it
pretends to do that, but it actually is
constantly reminding you of these
differences and forcing you to think
about them like, oh, I have three black
co-workers that I'm supposed to get
along with and I have like two gay ones
over here. And like you're it it is
constantly stratifying people across the
lines like categorizing them and
counting them based on their
differences. And so there's any kind of
like similarity or connection is forced.
It's it's like very self-conscious.
Nothing causes more division than that,
right? But you strip everybody down to
like no ego and have everybody converge
based on their greatest weakness and
suffering and difficulty. And you don't
even have to give the slightest thought
to, oh, this person is different and yet
I'm able to have communion with them
that's so genuine. It just happens
automatically. Like it it all those
things fade away. Like people can walk
into an NA meeting and just feel like
they're living in a different world and
thinking about other people and feeling
other people in a way and then they walk
out and the whole world then reappears.
That con constantly teaches us to, you
know, keep everybody at arms length. But
you walk into those kind of meetings,
the idea of it is like you strip down to
your the deepest core like foundation of
your humanity and then on that level
everyone is the same. And it's the
connection that emerges from that is why
it works, why people go their whole
lives to it, you know, even if they
haven't had a drink or a drug for 25
years, they still need it. Well, that's
why I went. I I have no interest in
drinking. I went cuz a loved one, you
know, someone I I love needed to go. So
I brought that person in. I was like, I
want to go every
day. I've never seen anything like that.
It makes you It makes you see the
potential for what the world could be.
Like that's what everyone wants is the
connection because other people are all
that matters. Just Teresa. Other people
are all that matters. And you gosh,
that's so easy to lose that thread.
Yeah. That's like our humanity. That's
like the soul. That's like the spirit.
It's everything. And that is what
Western society is assaulting and and
depriving people of. And so it's no
wonder we have epidemics of addiction
and suicide, anxiety disorders and
depression and distraction. It's so easy
to see why
you should write. You should write on
this. Yeah. I mean, I've thought a lot
about it. I think a lot about it. I try
and like incorporate it and and at some
point maybe I will. I hope you will. You
can you describe it much better than I
do. I'm still trying to sort it out in
my head. I've really It was less than a
year ago I saw this. I was like I've not
stopped thinking about it. Yeah, we
talked about it last night and so then I
thought about it last night, this
morning, so it's fresh in my mind as
well, like in terms of what it means and
how to think about it. But yeah, it's
something that is I think it's kind of
like sitting there right in plain sight.
It's a solution to a lot of things, but
for a lot of reasons, you need a lot of
vulnerability and humility to strip
yourself down that way to admit your
powerlessness. We're constantly taught
to affirm our invulnerability like I'm
strong, I'm powerful, I can deal with
anything. But human beings are by
themselves not all that powerful.
There's a lot of things we can do.
There's a lot of things we can't. And
the whole point of these kind of
addiction groups or whatever. There's a
lot of these different kind of groups. I
think all communities are like them is
like together like human beings
connecting to each other creates a much
bigger power than every human being
sitting kind of isolated and alone. Yes.
I mean I I believe in a religion that
extols humility that in which humility
is like the the cover charge like you
don't get anywhere without humility that
teaches that God like submitted to being
tortured to death. So like and you get
on your knees in a church, you like
Islam, you like bow on the ground. Like
that's exactly right. It's all an
expression of that same. I remember
after 9/11 when I was like, you know,
all about attacking Islam. I knew
nothing about Islam. I'm not Muslim by
the way. I don't work for contrary to
what a lot of people think despite the
paychecks from Qatar. Not a secret [ __ ]
But I remember um hearing someone on I
worked at CNN at the time and like we
had all these endless experts, most of
whom kind of worked for the CIA, but
whatever. I realized that later. But uh
I remember who it was. Come on. And be
like, you know, Islam is bad. And I was
like, "Sounds bad." You know, whatever.
I don't know if I ever met a Muslim. But
he's like, "You know what Islam means?
Submission." And like let it hang in the
air. Like that was self-evidently
disgusting. And I was like, I kind of
think submission to God is like the
whole point of life. But I didn't say
anything. I was like, I'm I'm I don't
think I'm against that
actually. Anyone who submits to God,
like I'm just for that. Well, and the
the the found I mean I think a lot of
religions seek the same things just find
different ways to think about how to to
to find them. But the whole point of AA
and NA like the foundation of it is that
you submit to a higher power. Yes. It
can be you know understanding that
there's a lot of people who are now
atheists or secular. It doesn't
necessarily have to be some like
religious conception of a god. And so
many people go into these groups and
they're adamantly contemptuous of this
idea like this is so irrational. I'm not
going to pretend that there's some magic
thing and you know I used to think that
way too and then I got to the point
where I was like no you know what
actually is irrational thinking that
there's no higher power than you like I
am the highest power like that's the the
absurd thing but it's all about you know
losing that sense that you're
invulnerable and understanding that you
know you can find something higher than
yourself and it could just be the
connection of the human group whatever
you want it to be like Whatever you
recognize as being able to something
being able to do things that you can't
do is already an acknowledgement that
there's a higher power than you. But if
you're if you think you're God, you're
not allowed in. I mean, if you think
you're God, you're going to have a lot
of difficulties in life. Well, you're
going to be Tori Nulan. Uh, so it's not
good. Glen Greenwell, thank you. Really
always my favorite person to talk to, so
I appreciate your Thank you, Tucker. I
always enjoy it as well. Thank you.
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