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Guru Gobind Singh Sahib: Life, Vision & Wisdom | Book Conversation | Bengaluru

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This content is a discussion centered around the life, vision, and wisdom of Guru Gobind Singh, marking the 350th anniversary of his birth. It explores his teachings, their relevance today, and the book "Guru Gobind Singh Sahib: Life, Vision and Wisdom" by Harinder Singh.

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Satrial. Good afternoon everyone and

welcome. My name is Usha Subramanyan and

it's truly a joy to welcome you all here

today. I'm especially glad that this

conversation is taking place here in

Bangalore, a city known for its

thoughtfulness, curiosity and quiet

depth. We are gathered this afternoon in

reverence and reflection marking 350

years since the Gurati of Gurug gobbin

Singh s a moment that reshaped sik

thought identity and collective responsibility.

responsibility.

Thank you for joining us for this

special event Gurugobin Singh Sai life

vision and wisdom featuring author and

educator Sri Harinder Singh. This

afternoon is not only about history.

It's an invitation to engage with living

wisdom. Wisdom that continues to speak

to courage, justice, creativity, and

sovereignty of spirit. We'll begin with

a conversation with the author followed

by an audience question and answer. This

is a rare opportunity to engage with two

deeply thoughtful voices. So please feel

free to listen closely, take notes and

hold your questions for the discussion.

We hope the space feels both intimate

and illuminating. I would also like to

welcome Sri Chiranjie Singh today our

special guest. Thank you so much for

being here with us.

A special request to kindly switch off

or put your phones on the silent mode.

It is now my honor to invite to the

stage Sri Harender Singh. Someone I'm

quite certain many of you already know.

Whenever a significant moment arises

related to six or the Punjab, Sri

Harinder Singh is often the voice people

turn to through interviews, public

conversations and invitations to provide

clarity and perspective. His words have

been heard widely and yet they always

arrive with a sense of intimacy as

though they were spoken directly to you.

Some of us here in Bangalore also

remember the months Sri Harinder spent

in the city. It's a wonder how someone

trained in aerospace engineering and

engineering management finds his way so

completely into the life of a guru sik a

lover of Punjab and what he himself

names with quite humor a citizen of Beam

Purat. Perhaps that is a question we'll

return to today. Harinder Singh is a

co-founder of the sik research institute

sikri and the Punjab digital library and

for decades has helped shape how siki is

studied discussed and lived across

communities and generations. He's the

author of Guru Gobin Singh Sahib life

vision and wisdom the book that brings

us together this afternoon where the

engaging policy makers speaking in

public forums or sitting in conversation

with within SAT Harendra brings a rare

blend of scholarship storytelling and

deep love for what he often describes as

a one force the oneness that radiates in

all and it feels especially fitting that

this conversation today is guided by

someone who listens just as attentively

as he questions.

Joining Sri Harinder in conversation

today is Mr. Amandep Sandu, a writer

whose work is shaped by attentiveness,

honesty and a deep respect for

listening. Born in Rurala, Odisha and

now living here in Bangalore, Amandep

has quietly moved between journalism,

literature and long- form reflection. I

say quietly because

despite living in this city, he has kept

a remarkably low profile here and

perhaps we can begin to change that from

today. His first two books, sepia leaves

and rule of honor, were works of

autobiographical fiction that many

readers continue to return for their

emotional restraint and precision. More

recently, his non-fiction book Punjab

journeys through fault lines offered a

thoughtful unhurried exploration of

place, memory and identity. One that

resists easy answers. Amandep has been

both a home baba fellow and a new India

foundation fellow and is currently

working on a book titled keeping the

faith six who live outside Punjab within

India a project that feels especially

timely and deeply needed. He's also I'm

told a lover of nirun music and a

devoted fan of filter coffee. No better

place than Bangalore for that. Black, no

sugar. A detail that somehow feels

entirely consistent with the way he

writes. It's a gift to have these two

voices in conversation. One shaped by

decades of inquiry and teaching, the

other by careful observation and

storytelling. Please join me in warmly

welcoming Sri Harinder Singh and Sri

Hello everybody. Is it Yeah. Um

sorry for the delay in start but when I

was coming I looked at the map and all

the roads were red and I'm like oh god

Bangalore traffic you know and uh

I have known Harinda for about 10 years

now. I have listened to him um on

YouTube mostly but we met a few years

back here in Bangalore

and uh ever since then we try to

collaborate on some things you know and

when I said uh when they were planning

this event I said why not call Chiranjiv

sir for the questioning you know and he

said no no no

you are the one I

I'm apprehensive I'm nervous Because

while I write about the community, I

write on the political economy of Punjab

and the community. I try to stay away

from questions on theology

and uh this is the first time I think

I'm even coming close to a guru you know

so please pardon me if I make any mistake

mistake

and uh let's start but uh Harinda took a

flight after his event in Delhi

yesterday he took a flight at 10:00 and

reached here at 1:00 and reached the

hotel at 2:30 or So are you rested?

>> They say there is no rest for the devil. But

But

>> Delhi would be all masks and this is low

AQI but bad traffic city, right?

>> It's it's it's pleasanter than Delhi

from weatherwise. Yeah.

>> The adopted son of Karnataka is saying

Okay. Uh we have a little mixed audience

here you know and I would like you to

spend a little time I mean for those who

are already from the seek community it

might be slightly familiar but I always

think that Harendra has these nice

unique ways of telling things. So would

you give a little introduction about

what is the Sikh religion and the 10

gurus a little bit brief one because we

need to put guru go Singh sahib in

okay

well firstly in the if you're going to

use English word like religion I may

even contest if it's a religion in that

sense but that said you know if you look

at in a in a popular sense we say it's a

fifth largest world religion and 30

million adherence and from that

perspective what is siki that's the word

I'm going to use because Islam has its

own politics manufactured in America

Boston about 100 years ago how they

wanted to study all the eastern religions

religions

and that's why the academic approach is

not befitting to understand some of the

indic religions but that said uh siki is

the word which has been used within the

tradition and siki has two elements if I

may say it like this. One part is the

faith and the other part is the people.

And from day one there was the

founders's name is Gurunanak.

He put a very small time village on the

world map now we call nankanasab Punjab

on the Pakistani side.

And if we look at his first 30 years,

he's having conversations and dialogues

from people in his town to all over from

Saudi Arabia to Sri Lanka.

That's quite a bit of what today we may

call inquisitiveness.

learning, dealing with different

cultures, religions, faiths, traditions,

conversations with his mom and sister

are informing him as well. Conversations

with the local king, eventually emperor

Baba who imprisoned him. Also,

conversations with people when you're

entering temples like Puri where Mrs.

Gandhi wasn't allowed to temple just to

put in context. Going to places like

Makkah where the non-Muslims are not

allowed to enter. So what is something

is unique there

and he's choosing to do most of the conversation

conversation

through musical wisdom.

So this is why kithan is very big in sik

tradition. Essentially this is the

formation of what we would say siki. How

do you and his number one thing I would

say is the opening of the scripture part

again the western word we just say bani

or vani which is what is voiced

what was voiced when it got articulated

in writing what we call gurug gransab

the opening is iikar

and I think this is a declaration which

have not fully understood or grasped

essentially it is not saying as the

translation say there is one god then

the one is a number the unification

number the unity number it's affirmation

there's many things in the numeral one

and is a description of that one so what

I see from gurunanak period onward the

founder of the faith we eventually had

10 founder gurus until gurug goan singh

who we will discuss a little bit today

this is really about transcending

duality ities this is about affirming

life. This is seeing the unification of

today we will say 8.4 4 billion people

on earth because we have exactly same

DNA only sequencing is different which

defines our behavior then how do you

transcend that polarity is what gurus

were dealing with this is what they

organized organization was big part of

gurunanak onward it went from suts

to umat is the word in gurug grant sahib

which is a scriptural tradition which is

a very political word that means the nation

nation

so this is about connecting with the one

the sik tradition is about that and

equally organizing to facilitate that

oneness which is not vague which allows

for what we now call different freedoms

from expressions to religions to

politics and everything else. So that's

the journey of the two journey of 10

gurus for about 238 years. If you look

at the next 238 years, you see the

formation of community changing of the

destiny of South Asia through Punjab and

other places. And now in last 150 years,

you're seeing some elements of this in

the global diaspora.

>> Is that a good brief?

>> Yeah, I think it was quite good. But

there is one thing that comes up in the

book which I picked on because I think

it's a favorite topic for you also is

that you say that Gurug goin Singh Sahib

was neither an Aryan nor a sematic prophet

prophet

so how would you explain it here? Yeah.

So there is one of the essays where I

was asked to contextualize essentially I

did some translation of Gurugan Singh's

writings and in that essay I have used

that line. I made five points about

Gurug Govan Singh because depending on

who is spinning they like to either make

him more Islamic or make him more Hindu

and because if you look at in the global

study of religions you have seatic

traditions Sami Kandinu

um the three being Christianity Islam

and the earlier Judaism

when you look at the Dharmic religions

as they're being presented now or larger

Indic religions

You obviously have many things within

the Hindu fold because it's become more

political world now. Earlier you had

shite tradition tradition

So uncle discussion I'm saying in

Punjabi that when guru is invoking

how to have a conversation with the six

schools of Hindu philosophy

acharia system. So to say guru is only

from the achara angle or from not from

the sematic angle because guru is also

dealing with the whole idea of pagambas

the Hindustani parumpa is a tars

so this is why I said guru is of

and that's where when I was asked book

offering I've already offered my book to

pata where gurugan singh was born

everything else is whatever anyone else

wants. The reason I'm invoking that is

in pata

this may be a a different way to look at

it. Gurug goan Singh's context is Ganges

Valley civilization

and this is your topic now. Guranak's

context in origination was Indasi civilization.

civilization.

Ganak is next to literally his village

uh within couple of hundred kilometers.

The largest renaissance or education

center of the time was Takla previous to

him and it was in the confrontation of

as they say of Islam and Hinduism.

That's the context of Gurunanak. Gurugov

Singh's context I look at it's Nalanda.

It's Janism and Buddhism.

Pawapuri is hour and a half from Patna

where he's born and both guy is two

hours. So when we look at the vocabulary

of Gurugoban Singh it's coming from there

there

because you have to be relevant to the

and where he's born and in fact the guru

I went to I want to share that this is

why he is of both. He's neither but he's

of both. So this is transcending

polarities to fixate the guru in one

tradition will be too much.

So I wrote that not as a reaction but to

not box the guru in one or the other

tradition. And where guru was born the

Hindus and Muslims of that town

celebrated him. Where Gunanak was born

Hindus and Muslims of that town

celebrated him. You know so we have to

not go into the contemporary politics

because they like to claim one is more

of particular faith. No people fought on

behalf of guru with the guru belonging

to different faiths as well when they

were fighting the imperial forces. So

this is one of the reasons I said there

are two larger systems operating in the

world when you study religions. The guru

is not about is this superior to that

because the declaration by guranak was

nobody is inferior or superior. So

you're trying to bring oneness among all

So very interestingly you came to that

sentence at the end and you talked about

I would want you to dwell a little more on

one and oneness

because it is very central to the book

we are talking about you know so if

somebody is going to read the book if

somebody's want to understand it they

should have heard what you meant by one

oneness and which is like your Twitter

handle as well so

>> which I haven't been using since you

know who owns it.

U but in the

I actually am most interested in the

numeral one because Gurana chose to use

it and it's a continuity of that in sik

traditions literally in a textual

Now the the numeral one is pretty clear.

There is no debate. And the reason I'm

focused on that is in Punjabi,

if you say

and you spell it,

It comes like that within Guruganshab as

well, which is the collection of the

Barney and the Shabbats. When the

numeral is used, it only means one.

So to spell it even in English o and me

I hesitate because in contemporary

parlance there is a spiritual vagueness

and oneness. Everyone is talking about regain

regain

and I choose to write the numeral one in

English as well because there is no

vagueness. Then this thing is whether

you accept it or not it exists. It's natural.

natural.

So there is oneness. 100% of our DNA is

exactly same.

So when I am exploring this in the bani

of Gurugovven Singh and how to present

the gurus as well uh that's the numeral

which shows up everywhere because when

Goboan Singh writes or his court poets

write they discuss that a lot

that it actually is echo echo word comes

a lot numeral one is used as an art form

as well more than the declaration. So

this is why the one is important. The

numeral one is not vague. Numeral one is

derived from

the very declaration of gurunanak and

gurug goban singh is the continuity of

that. And this is the second point I

want to make.

Um many people

don't see the gurus as the same. The 10

gurus it is central to sik theology

shabads in gurug gransab in secondary

texts which I have quoted too

every single source on siki says they

were exactly same

yet we have created some people say I

can't handle gurug goan singh I end up

telling them you won't be able to handle

gurunanak if you actually read what he

wrote because they're

Right? We have a stereotypes. We have

made particular images of the gurus. One

and and six have done the same thing. We

have favorite gurus. We have created. So

the oneness of the gurus is very

important. And I want to just cite that

that becomes then the paradigm of the siki.

siki.

And that paradigm then basically asks us

to not entertain what I end up calling

zero bias on gender and race. Now you

add to it everything from LGBTQIA plus

to any isms or ologies which are

creating divisions.

Those are our problems on how we deal

with it. The declaration from day one is

there is only one.

And that oneness

I actually end up writing when I write I

write the number one and then write

ness. I don't even like to spell it as I

said because it creates very spiritual.

You know, you can be sipping your latte

and you'll be saying, "I'm being very

spiritual." This is the world we live

in. I remember Vogue magazine's cover

about seven years ago. There's a woman

doing half yoga mode and a Starbucks

latte in her head and she's saying, "I'm

being spiritual." Sure, I don't have an

issue with it. But this is how vagueness

also spreads in popular culture. So when

something is so clear,

why would I mince words on it and adopt

it in the language which is accessible

and English happens to be the

commercially most accessible language.

So that's what we did. I borrowed the

numeral one.

I'm tempted to share a little joke here

because I mean we are just getting into

the next stage which will be more serious.

serious.

uh doing my research for my book. I was

in Indor and I met a communist Cindi

person you know now the Cindis love

gurun nanak you know and because he's

communist he said to me nanak is ours we

love nanak nanak we breathe nanuk weak

it is you seeks who put nine other

nanuks after him and took the ranuk from

us you know like that is a good way of

saying it you know like

>> and you know to add to it I remember at

PU one math professor professor about 15

years ago. He actually said something

similar. He's like, I understand eight

of them, but I don't know what the other

two were doing. But what I want to say

is, you know, where these questions are

coming from, they're coming from not knowing.

knowing.

So I took that as a challenge that if

loosely translated, it means the light

was exactly the same. Light is symbolism

of enlightenment, knowledge, wisdom.

Jugat was exactly the same. Jugat is the

method. How you implement that wisdom.

Kaya is the body. The only thing that he

pi the thing which changed was only the

body. So I think it is the stereotyping

is partly the challenge we have. I would

largely say our work is cut out and one

of the things we're trying to do even in

from the secondary text we are quoting

uh in this book especially is to quote

those poets who are the court poets of

gurug goban singh yes I'm interested in

I read all the persian sources and all

the index sources as well that's the

context we live in but people who say

those things people who write about six

they're not citing six sources

so that is a major major mishap which

has caused some of these jokes as well

as very serious issues dividing the

gurus themselves.

My own journey of siki has been very fragmented

fragmented

and that is why I'm coming to this

the question is simple why what inspired

you to write the book but the timing is

very interesting

you know we are seeing worldwide an

unming of ideology

uh degeneration of values

we don't know whom to trust anymore.

We are unable to trust ourselves, our

own hearing, our own reading. Social

media is full of we don't know what you

know AI has come in. You know

my journey since doing my Punjab book

has been moving towards Ziki but you are

a much advanced learner than me. I want

to ask you that from being a learner to

now wanting to educate the world. What

was it that inspired you to do this book

Honestly, the book wasn't the plan when

when there was a 350th birth

anniversary. We like to say Praash Po

and I want to differentiate a little bit

that's why birth is an English word.

Praash means illumination.

Sik tradition has always been about not

the birth but the illumination the

wisdom they brought. So when that came

about 80 years ago

I was like we don't know anything about

Gurug goan Singh what's his thought

we have three four things in fact I

remember as a child I was maybe 10 years

old in Jasi UP

I remember popular culture they

who was that magician circar >> PCR

>> PCR

he was doing his kan things and you know

how they do these things putting in two

different magical things but he pulls

and I'm sitting there as a 10year-old

I'm like

you're fascinated he was my hero you

know I had many heroes I I was a guy who

also watched Superman so you're figuring out

manufacturer.

That's the guy who wrote about Superman,

right? How do you surpass the animal in

you? How do you surpass the man in you?

So, I'm remembering those things and I'm

coming fast forward here in my own

journey. I didn't study Gurug Govan

Singh. I just always saw him on a horse

and he was presented as what the

political world of India in last 100

years calls him karakari

which means the armed man.

Look the reason I wrote is when his

birth anniversary came I said we don't

know what he believed in

we don't know his thought

that this

so why I basically went after what is it

that I can share about him that I have

learned over the years in primary or

text secondary text and I picked 10 shabbats

shabbats

it's not about the volume I thought if

you want to know about syas what does

guru Go Singh have to say on it. If you

want to know about yoga, these are again

popular things back in India, you know,

they're on conversations globally.

They're being discussed. What does Guru

go Singh have to say on that? If guru,

if you want to know about death,

you want to know about the idea of

prahu, permission, creator, religion,

god, all these questions are being

discussed. So I end up picking those 10

shads. And the reason I picked that and

this is why um

in sik collective memory those

collections are called shabad hazare popularly

popularly

but there's a misnomer there the actual

word is sabad

you know which now is shabbad

but hazare was never the word it's

actually hajar hajar came from hijar

hijar is separation

so what do you started with we are

living in separation again. We have

always been in separations. It's a

journey to connect

whether the separation within the self,

separation within families, communities,

online eos ecosystems, whatever there's

separations going on. So if I am not

connected I wanted to present Guroban

Singh what he talks about how to connect

in continuation of the sixth heart and

there there was really about those 10

shabbads which we worked on several five

plus years ago and then eventually the

team wanted to create a book out of it

so that's how the book came and then I

wanted to discuss art in it

>> so the reason was the thought of gurugin

Singh I wanted Gurugoban Singh did not

just fight 22 battles.

Gurugovan Singh

is the one if I may say this it may be a

tall order and please correct me.

uh if there ever been a consolidation in

South Asia what we call true nation

building that's what he created

the five who were given the charge as a

leadership only one was a Punjabi man

that's the training he developed

so India has been a product of conquest

if you study history that's how they

consolidated this was a consolidation

happening with a creative of excitement

starting from Patna, Bihar going to

Anandpur all the way to Nander and in

between covering the whole of South Asia

only one man was Punjabi when the

leadership was transferred. So to me

this is what Gurug go Singh did. He

creatively excited people in South Asia.

They created a project in Punjab.

But the project was not just about Punjab.

Punjab.

It actually was people's languages,

people's issues, ideas of freedom. How

do you how do you take his language is brudge?

brudge?

The two

citations I gave from a secondary

sources, one is Persian Farsy, the other

is Braj. Look at even there the

polarities and the language issues we

are facing today under one nation and

one language issues as you are more

familiar with here. It's actually

celebration of any language in love

because Gurunanak had written the only

language which matter is love.

So guru is actually bringing various

cultures together. the confluences of

ideas whether it's a Vic thought or a

Aryan thought or a Vashnavite tradition

the Shvite tradition the various the

Sufi school of Punjab was born out of

this too the ideas where

otherwise what we call Sufi Islamists

they became allies of the gurus as well

which means there was some serious

consolidation and nation building going

on if anything this you know this area

should be called United States of South

Asia maybe you know maybe then we will

start to think differently and Gobin

Singh in my opinion did that and he

showed it to the world it wasn't an idea

it wasn't a utopia and that's my last

point on this sir Thomas Moore wrote

utopia he's the guy to use that word

first which is a vision you are

developing in my introduction you said

beamura beamura was a vision but it was

not established

gurobin singh in the project of the 10

gurus established that vision and he

showed it exemplified it he demonstrated

we don't just believe in it we treat

people equally in this manner so this is

a huge thing and I think this whole

narrative is missing in the

I see you signed the forward exactly a

year back on 5th January 2025

and the book arrived yesterday

what took it one year I mean after

writing get to production finalization.

There is you who is in the US, your

illustrator is in the US, the designer

is in Germany, the printer is in Delhi,

the calligraphist is in UK, you know. So

this book is also a a product of various

people coming together. How was that

experience? A collaborative project

Um well we have a brilliant editor in Iniore

Iniore

and she put together a lot of the team

members. I initiated some of them. Uh

look the

it took a year to answer it shortly.

We thought it was done. It was ready and

then now where do you print it?

Very interestingly the person the the

the publisher we have interesting

relationship with them. their milap from

Delhi. Even the word milap I was playing

with yesterday,

you know,

they chose to give incredible care to it

and they took much longer.

So I met him when he gave me the proof

copy about 3 months ago.

Yeah. The publisher MD is Yogi Suri.

And I asked him, Mega, why have you

come? You could have sent anyone. He's

like, no, I want to discuss this book

with you. I'm still not done how it

should be published or printed

and I'll just share that here. Obviously

the calligrapher took time. The artist

thought it'll be only 6 months. It took

her two years because the challenge was

you will not draw any image of Gurugovan

Singh. We have to show the we have to

start developing some sick aesthetic

senses. And the reason is in sik

tradition we don't put down the images

or idols. But Gurobin Singh said that I

break the idols in the mind. So we have

he says I'm among the people who worship

idols and I'm going to break the idols

he did not break a single idol

physically he was breaking idols here

fixation of mind the idol worship of

thought even so the the publisher

essentially said

uh I I need to figure out how to This is

going to be my first non-commercial

book. He says, "We have been in this

business for 100 years." He says, "My

dad was asking, this is Yogi telling

me." He's like, "My dad asked me one day.

day.

What is taking so long in this book?" So

I showed him the book and he says,

"You're going to only get to do this

kind of book once in your lifetime." So

I think people have taken a lot of care

just to say this. our designer, our

calligrapher, our editor. Um,

Um,

what did you learn from the process?

What did you discover in in all of them

at some point when it started as a

project for them,

for me also,

but it became much more than that.

So we then said forget the deadline and

sometimes it works out the way it needs

to work out well it always does but we

don't know it and the way it book came

out eventually it happened when it's the

guradi year of gurugan singh you know

everyone's talking about the martyrdom

day of gurut badr

what we don't realize in sik tradition

we don't say that's a bad day the

shahadat or martyrdom is to construct

the next thing. So right away Gurugovan

Singh started what he did for the next

24 years was rebuilding how to do all

this what kind of poetry to write what

kind of justice war to start what kind

of cities to build. So what we learned

in the process is that all of the team

we have an atheist who worked on this

too self-proclaimed atheist she's like

this is the first time something is

speaking to me her name is Amanda Hack

so it's very interesting what it did I

wanted the guru's words to do the number

I would say it started to do a number on

anyone who has been part of the project

what I learned is I must only present

the guru

everything else people will figure it

out. I need to minimize my own vocabulary.

vocabulary.

I need to not do any spinning.

Even if it sounds harsh, let it be. Life

is not all hunky dory as this ain't

Texas. Right? So what I learned is

continue just telling what it is. People

eventually are reflective and they're

getting it including in our team.

Coming to the content of the book, you know,

know, um

what is it that

for you in your selection process? Why

did you bring these 10 shrubs together?

Are they bound in any way, tied in any

way with each other or are they like

Mitraenu was like lovely when I

discovered it, you know, but then but

what is it that brought them together

for you?

Well, these shovels this collection

and one of them is cha.

So anytime there is a music involved

there is much more involved. So when I

went my reason was partly that

part of my reason in selection process was

was

within the 1enter sick world there's a

controversy on which text is gurug goen

sings and which one is not and I also

want to deal with that in a more

creative way so I said what is

objectionable in any of these 10 nothing

so you start with that then

even the ones who otherwise are

contesting it they can't find anything

objectionable in this. So that was the

other reason.

My third is the shabbad you invoked.

You know if you want to create

relatability even Bollywood has sang

this shabban multiple times. So I'm like

if there is one memory in South Asia of

Gurugovan Singh it's this shabad. So

through that memory let me expand a

little bit and the context of that

shabad is also not known. So it gave me

an opportunity to discuss that context.

So these were the three reasons that

there's a color of rag. Rag is about Russ.

Russ.

Russ whether you're in Karnatak school

or Hindustani you school it's all about sentiments.

sentiments.

So what color what love needs to come

out even in depicting art

that was huge for me that we need to be

able to explore that. We'll come to the

art but to titles of the shab how did

you get to them? Oh the way that what I

title them. Yeah. Ah the guru did not

title them. Gurus just says you know for

when I studied them I'm like how do I

make it relatable? Several of you say

you know we like it the way you talk

because it becomes clearer. So then when

I read the shabbad within the shabbad I

came up with this is the world we live

in because they keep telling me to

marketing will be tando

and I said how can I write one or two

title one or two word title.

So from the Shabbat I picked that and

the way I picked that was I asked a question

question

what is the question being explored in

the Shabbat and then I also included

that in the book and that process was

very very good for me and it worked

because when I started sharing with people

people um

I think the part which I want to mention

is it is not something I created

I I I was trying to be an exaget which

means don't go outside the text stay

within the text and from there I just

use English title what the words were

already in the shabbat itself

>> I would say emerge not create but they

emerge from it

but there translations from within the

shabbat that's what I'm trying to say I

you chose to translate the works of

Pyandal and also Chandra Sapati.

Who are these two poets? Why do you

bring them in? I mean

I told my friends I mean this is also

because I'm a great fan of testimonial

writing. You know I believe that if

somebody witnesses something my only job

in the world is to actually witness the

world and write my testimony. That's all

I think as a writer my job is. These

were testimonial writers of the time of

the guru.

Is that the reason you chose them? What

were the reasons you brought them in?

>> That that was a large reason but there

is more because I had more options. Um

when this was not supposed to be a book

project, it was an online project of

translation and art. So when two years

I thought about it. I took couple of

months and I went back. I said I can't

write an introduction to Gurugan Singh.

I haven't seen him.

He was my hero as a childhood. Then I've

studied him. At some point I accepted

him as my guru. But introduction though

who can give introduction? The ones who

have witnessed him. The ones who were in

his company.

So I said who are the court ports of

Guroban Singh available

and then one of them is Pahandal Goya

the man from Gazni. That's important

because you see we're talking about

South Asia. Chokiki

from there he's coming serving in the

court at Agura in the Mughal court has

become excellent not just in Persian but

in Islam's interpretation from Quran.

He decides to go serve in the court of

Guruan Singh and he wrote multiple

compositions we call Barney. I picked

one of those composition called Ganjin Nama.

Nama.

And in Ganjin Nama roughly he has 10

chapters and the 10th chapter he titled

Sult Dham

not Sultan

Sultanat Sultanat is the domain. So one

of the things I wanted to explain was

explore was what is the domain of the

guru the 10th. So Pandanda Goa and Farsy

has written that. So I loosely

translated that. So that was one reason.

The second one is Chandrasan Sapat. He

wrote a book called Sri Guroba.

His all of his work is in Gurmoki script

but it is old Punjabi and BRJ

largely br.

So this is another interesting thing.

You know the whole thing about languages

we talk about which is a more godly

language as some people are trying to

prove. No both. So Chandras Sanapat is

writing a long form.

He is he's he's available he's

witnessing what guru is doing. He's

traveling with the guru. So when I had

to write more incidents I picked him and

translated his works. So the the grander

of the guru is coming from Pandanda Algo

Goya in Persian

and the event-based more historical

testimonies are coming from Chandrasan

Sana in Bra.

>> Did you add more to it or did you just

bring their translations?

>> So I first just did translations and I

realized this is not going to work

because lot more. So I added a lot of notes.

notes.

I I have lot of footnotes

as to what is to do.

In the case of Chandrasan Sapat I also

added context because it is more we are

used to the linear forms of history. Sik

tradition doesn't have linear forms of

history. None of the guru's uh

biographies are written in their own

period. So we look at time as a idea.

you know what we are used to as time in

last 100 years is not the historical

approach of the six it wasn't the

approach of the gurus and we can discuss

that some other time so then I was doing

that in chandras sana and I'm like which

incidents do I pick where they talk

about the ideas of them like for example

why why did guru fight these battles

and who were these people he was

fighting against there are a lot of

stereotypes about these

And then in the first battle people who

are his allies in the third battle

they're fighting against him. Today we

call this you know election season

people switch parties. Allegiance are

constantly shifting and Gurug go Singh

is dealing with this but the language of

love remains.

How do you deal with people who have

fleeting allegiances

you know because uh whoever the chief

minister or prime minister is at the

time whoever the local king and the

emperor is allegiances are shifting

based on that it's a very human thing

right so he's teaching us how to deal

with it in order to provide that context

I went little bit out of that but when I

was answering the question I said here

is his direct answer has witnessed event

and then if you don't are not familiar

with Here is what was happening at the

time in South Asia or in Punjab or at

Just a word on the paintings by Kiran Kor.

Kor.

She mentioned a workshop with you

and what do you do in these workshop

with the people? you you select to do

some part of the project and and I think

illustrations is a huge part of this

book's beauty. You know,

it was actually during co I actually

remember I this was I hadn't talked to

anyone about it. It was a thing in my

head that I got to talk do something

with Guruguan Singh Bani. So I called

her I think it was last week of

December. I said Kiran what are you

doing? She was she is a graduate

student. She just graduated, finished

her masters. She's an artist as well.

Young woman, Kiran core.

Uh she's like, "It's co nobody's doing

anything." I said, "I'll take a flight.

I'll come to Bay Area. Can you get a

Are you interested in just learning 10

shabbads and see how the art will flow

out of it?

It'll take us couple of days to do

this." like every word has to be

understood and the flavors of its

sentiments of the rocks and things of

that nature. So that's what we did. We

were in downtown San Francisco. It was

closed. Somebody gave us her dad gave us

their office and with couple of breaks

in between in a day over lunch and our

San Francisco by the way has some good

coffee too.

I can debate the coffee in Bangalore

because any I don't want to get into

that. I am a light roast pourover guy.

So those of you understand coffee but

since his introduction it was said uh so

we basically discussed every shovel

every word of every sho my interest was

artist has to live and breathe that I'm

color blind by the way so I can't tell

her what colors to use but I can share

with her the knowledge on some of the

colors which rag has which colors in it

literally rung means color

but rung interpretively is love.

So what color is going to be used is

something she has to come up with

knowing this is what the rag says in the

sentiments of Hindustani parump of

music. So anyway so that's what we did

for a couple of days

>> but then she drew and then it was at one level.

level.

>> Yeah. Well we had iterations

>> and then she felt that it needs depth.

And how did that move from a 2D to a 3D

kind of a thing? is everything in this

book is very very iterative. That's why

it takes so much longer.

Um because one thing is you take

something which is a foreign language to

her. She's born and raised in US.

She understood some of the text then how

do you take firstly something which is

so foreign

and then the challenge I had given was

you have to also globalize this which

means anyone in the world should be able

to relate to it. So I made her write

notes. That's why on every Shabbat

there's a note musings from the artists

we call it. So that was iterative

process. We basically talked about it

is what she understood was the first draft

draft

of seven of the Shabbads. On the last

three she couldn't even figure it out.

It took her very long time because they

seemed too abstract to her. So we went

through after the first immersion in two

days. Then over the next two years we

went through multiple iterations. Then

we involved the editor as well and since

I'm a colorblind guy I'm like you guys

figure out what are the right colors

here. I got red green color blindness.

So certain colors I won't be able to see

properly. So I would say it was a long

iterative process. I invested more in

every person who's involved in them

understanding what the shabad is.

The creative expression was left to them.

them.

>> No but those notes are brilliant. I mean

for a somebody who wants to see how

they move from an idea to a

representation I think they are very

interestingly done.

>> We had them uh written afterwards. I'm

like this needs to be part of the book. >> Yeah.

>> Yeah.

>> Same. We did the same with a calligrapher.

calligrapher.

The reason I wanted to go there is

because religion quote unquote religion

we have taken the beauty out of it.

You know the beauty with a capital B

and then it sure it is eventually about

the beloved but beloved has many

manifestation and those manifestation

don't have to be classical ones they

So the divine emancipator that section

is in a series of question and answers.

Why did you choose that text? And and I

I have I'm it's a larger question. The

question is really about

question and answers as a way of

knowledge gathering, curation,

curation, understanding.

understanding.

There's a there's a lot of that in other

religions as well. So what do you want

to spend?

>> That's the second part where I

translated uh Chandras Sapa's book is

very long.

That is a translation project by itself.

So I had two two things in mind when I

was doing that. I'm like you know how we

do this thing. If you had an opportunity

to go in US they say this to elementary

school children. If you could ask George

Washington 10 questions, what will you

ask? So I had that in my mind that if

audience wanted to know or ask questions

to Gurugan Singh, some I came up with

some I imagined some of people would

want to know. That's one. But the larger

idea came from Gurunanak. See the sick

tradition was all about dialogue

which I feel in the community is almost dead.

dead.

You know ghost

ghosty word s the ghost there's a barney

and that bney has question answers

within it

and we have realized I've realized in my

experience that when I was doing

workshops in last 25 years globally on

sik issues and punjab issues sometimes

south Asian and American things the

question answer session is the best

session until then you are you're

transferring what you think needs to be

transferred but then what the individual

ual wants to know is asked. So I was

playing with all these things in my

head. Eventually that's how I end up

doing the divine emancipator part.

>> Also in the Buddhist tradition in the

Greek tradition you know the Plato

Aristotle talks and all are happening in

question answer. So I found it very

interesting that

Sid go happens in a question answer

form. So but is there a deeper political

reason to bring that kind of a section

in the book? Well, there everything is

political. The language itself is

political. what word choice I use the

what the choice words gurus used

everything is political and we need to

not have this

uh polarity if I may submit you know we

have these polarities which is what guru

sab is getting out of is this spiritual

or is this political

even the most famous phrase on gurug

gobin singh is son sipahi he never used

that phrase

somebody's explaining it I get it we

also use words to explain his word is

kalsa how are you going to and now we

have stereotyped the kalsa we don't

think kalsa is the one who's drenched in

love that's how he describes

so part of the game if I may call it is

to come out of that these polarities on

the gurus and the thoughts of polarities

on the gurus so questioning sorry

question answer format was one way to

deal with it of course like what he's

discussing today is the issues I

mentioned in the individual level

earlier At political level it's the same

thing. How do you deal with imperialism?

How do you deal with imperialist powers?

Like we are in a rise of authoritarian

culture again everywhere in the globe.

You know alliance building is very important.

important.

In Gurugovan Singh's case

you know when orang dies there are two

brothers. One is not interested.

So you got to pick a side. This is

always the case when there is governance

has to happen. That's why you vote and

say that I don't want to do this. Well,

that's your choice but I'm bringing

Gurugman Singh into this. He has two

choices. Two princes are fighting for

his attention.

He actually supports one of them. He I

cite that explicitly. He even sends part

of the troops to go fight to protect and

eventually he becomes the emperor Bahad Dasha.

Dasha.

I also cite it's the same prince as an

emperor who meets the guru in Agura

and the protocols are not applied to

Gurugoban Singh he appears in front of

him wearing his weapons because even in

front of an emperor prince are not

allowed to wear weapons

so there's that context going on because

the sick issues of identity globally are

going on then I also mention it's the

same emperor when there's assassination

attempt and eventually

There is a

it was also sent by the same emperor.

So this is what happens in

relationships. They go up and down. They

are volatile. We are people. We are

animals at the end of the day in some

sense. Right? Then we say we are

political animals. So I'm trying to also

show that guru does not have permanent

enemies or permanent friends as we

There is no other. This is the one again

coming back

and there is no enemy. We are fighting

the enemy which is of ideas or behaviors.

behaviors.

So this is another thing which I want to

bring out the sick idea of revenge.

That's why it doesn't exist. The idea of

justice very much exists which is very

very different. Revenge is largely personal.

personal.

Justice is not about just us asas like

to say justice is much larger

and uh and it requires

so that oneness is practiced by the guru

whereas state can do anything that's

state's choice that's the imperial state

at the time in fact that imperial state

makes sure that there's a confusion on

who the air apparent is so they install

another person named Ajit Singh and they

want to they wanted the state wanted to

acknowledge him as the air apparent of

Guruan After that my point is state does

what state does. The guru and the

followers of a guru do what they need to

do based on the paradigms they are

serving which is very different than a

regular human behavior.

Since we are so close to question and

answer and what we have talked we should

open the the evening. We've talked for

about 55 minutes but one last question.

I would rather announce that you know

people should stay back for high tea buy

copies of the book and get them signed

by the author. But the author says he

won't sign the book. So why won't you

there are two reasons

one is I don't have original writing in

there I'm citing Gurugopen Singh's

writing and then I'm

citing Pandandaal Goya

and Kavi Chandrasan Sapat I'm just

contextualizing that so integrity issue

second I get it from a human angle. You

know this is why if when you open the

book on second or third page there is signature of Gurugoban Singh. So you get

signature of Gurugoban Singh. So you get to take that home

to take that home because most people are not aware of

because most people are not aware of that Gurugan Singh also signed. He wrote

that Gurugan Singh also signed. He wrote things. He had okumnames. To me, this is

things. He had okumnames. To me, this is I am a essentially I am that little boy

I am a essentially I am that little boy from Chani whose hero

from Chani whose hero did a number on him and somewhere

did a number on him and somewhere I am in some love relationship with him.

I am in some love relationship with him. So that's why I can't be signing this

So that's why I can't be signing this stuff. Look, Guru was all about love and

stuff. Look, Guru was all about love and I do want to bring that in here. Even

I do want to bring that in here. Even his politics is tough love but it is

his politics is tough love but it is love.

love. the most uh the shabad you cited if I

the most uh the shabad you cited if I may you know that line

the context I want to share on that too he says my beloved friend

he says my beloved friend referring to the divine the one

referring to the divine the one but even there you know the context of

but even there you know the context of that shabbad is there was a period in

that shabbad is there was a period in gurug gobin there's a event in gurugin

gurug gobin there's a event in gurugin singh's life while he's alive where the

singh's life while he's alive where the literature of the six is lost it was

literature of the six is lost it was called vidya Sagrat.

called vidya Sagrat. So when people say six, six and the

So when people say six, six and the gurus did not produce literary knowledge

gurus did not produce literary knowledge is just not true.

is just not true. He's separated from his family. Two of

He's separated from his family. Two of us sons have died in the battle. He's

us sons have died in the battle. He's separated from his mother and two

separated from his mother and two younger saiadas.

younger saiadas. Now look at from a human angle. What

Now look at from a human angle. What will your condition be at that time? And

will your condition be at that time? And he is in a jungle called Machiara at the

he is in a jungle called Machiara at the time by himself. That's the context of

time by himself. That's the context of this shovel. And what does he say? He

this shovel. And what does he say? He doesn't say look at my condition or my

doesn't say look at my condition or my family's condition or my literature I

family's condition or my literature I produce or the forts I build. He says

produce or the forts I build. He says muris are the ones the ones who follow

muris are the ones the ones who follow you your followers. He says I'm

you your followers. He says I'm concerned about the followers referring

concerned about the followers referring to the kalsa

to the kalsa the ones who have to survive all this

the ones who have to survive all this you know. So guru currently.

you know. So guru currently. So he uses the word

So he uses the word par is beloved where I was going with

par is beloved where I was going with this. Second thing I want to combine the

this. Second thing I want to combine the other line which I have not covered but

other line which I have not covered but I do want to mention here

I do want to mention here that gurobin saying you know his journey

that gurobin saying you know his journey from pata to anpur

from pata to anpur he's written about that he's saying all

he's written about that he's saying all sorts of things happening. So we react

sorts of things happening. So we react to things when we see things and I have

to things when we see things and I have shared this in other spaces he's not

shared this in other spaces he's not reacting to things he's observing

reacting to things he's observing you know he's like some worship like

you know he's like some worship like this some worship on that direction some

this some worship on that direction some are upside down you know the kind of

are upside down you know the kind of things we do in the name of worship and

things we do in the name of worship and we have our own rituals for that you

we have our own rituals for that you know how he concludes all that

those who love they discover the prau

they discover the prau But before that he writes a line which I

But before that he writes a line which I the reason I citing all this which is my

the reason I citing all this which is my condition and perhaps some of yours.

There is a battles over God. There's a debate on God.

debate on God. You guys hear these words right? They're

You guys hear these words right? They're all polarities. And what he's writing is

all polarities. And what he's writing is the world is caught up in trashly

the world is caught up in trashly behavior.

behavior. Ka

Ka k is literally kud is trash. I like to

k is literally kud is trash. I like to simplify it. You can call it foul false

simplify it. You can call it foul false in abstract sense. But what do you do

in abstract sense. But what do you do with trash?

with trash? You keep it within you. But he says this

You keep it within you. But he says this is what we are entangled in trash.

is what we are entangled in trash. How can we ever discover the mystery of

How can we ever discover the mystery of the divine?

the divine? So divine is a mystical personal

So divine is a mystical personal experience.

experience. which is based on love. This is what

which is based on love. This is what Gurugman Singh has written. In case of

Gurugman Singh has written. In case of six where I started, it is not just

six where I started, it is not just about personally being in love with the

about personally being in love with the divine. It is also organizing to

divine. It is also organizing to facilitate the communities so they can

facilitate the communities so they can exercise their own freedom. That's where

exercise their own freedom. That's where the sovereignity comes in. So it goes

the sovereignity comes in. So it goes from self- sovereignity to freeing

from self- sovereignity to freeing people. Gobin Singh went from pata to

people. Gobin Singh went from pata to free people in Punjab. The very corrupt

free people in Punjab. The very corrupt people of Punjab at the time. So when

people of Punjab at the time. So when diaspora goes to homeland to free, don't

diaspora goes to homeland to free, don't get too worked up. Patna was the first

get too worked up. Patna was the first diaspora of the six.

Okay, on that note, I mean questions please, anybody who wants to ask, can

please, anybody who wants to ask, can there be somebody who passes a mic?

>> Please use the mic. See it is considered that the biggest

See it is considered that the biggest vision of Guroban Singh G was gurum

vision of Guroban Singh G was gurum mana.

mana. If I were to ask a question which was in

If I were to ask a question which was in that time to ask him this question that

that time to ask him this question that what was the turning point

what was the turning point or the reason why he decided to abolish

or the reason why he decided to abolish personal succession and establish the

personal succession and establish the Guran Sai as eternal crew. If that

Guran Sai as eternal crew. If that question would be asked to him from his

question would be asked to him from his life, could you give us some answer?

life, could you give us some answer? >> Thank you for asking. I've actually

>> Thank you for asking. I've actually covered that as one of the 12 questions

covered that as one of the 12 questions written. So there's a misnomer there a

written. So there's a misnomer there a little bit based on the secondary text.

little bit based on the secondary text. So I'm paraphr I'm qualifying this. The

So I'm paraphr I'm qualifying this. The guru ship was transferred in sik

guru ship was transferred in sik tradition. If you start from day one,

tradition. If you start from day one, Guranak's guru, he was asked who's your

Guranak's guru, he was asked who's your guru? He said Shabbad.

guru? He said Shabbad. Shabbad has always been there. Shabbat

Shabbad has always been there. Shabbat is universal. The word sanatan means

is universal. The word sanatan means eternal and universal. Not the politics

eternal and universal. Not the politics of sanatan today. Yeah, I'm saying it

of sanatan today. Yeah, I'm saying it because these things are very important.

because these things are very important. They have to be contextualized.

They have to be contextualized. That's how Bhagat Kabir uses that word

That's how Bhagat Kabir uses that word in gurransab as well. So shabbad which

in gurransab as well. So shabbad which is wisdom the words and sounds

is wisdom the words and sounds when they became

when they became tangible we call them bi guranak's bi

tangible we call them bi guranak's bi gurangut's bani pagat kabir's bi shik

gurangut's bani pagat kabir's bi shik fared bi in that they were written and

fared bi in that they were written and collected they became pisi

collected they became pisi became adhrant adrant eventually became

became adhrant adrant eventually became gurug grant so we have to understand

gurug grant so we have to understand that is happening

that is happening Who is doing it? The physical gurus 1

Who is doing it? The physical gurus 1 through 10 are doing it. But there's

through 10 are doing it. But there's always a person who's interpreting it.

always a person who's interpreting it. So the at the end of Guru Goen Singh's

So the at the end of Guru Goen Singh's line, it is not just guru grant sahib.

line, it is not just guru grant sahib. It is the guru kala pant. Also kalsa is

It is the guru kala pant. Also kalsa is the collective of those who are drenched

the collective of those who are drenched in this shabbad. They're experiencing

in this shabbad. They're experiencing nam which is the identification with the

nam which is the identification with the divine and they are the ones who need to

divine and they are the ones who need to further this. So the guru ship actually

further this. So the guru ship actually was transferred in 1699 to Kalsa. Kalsa

was transferred in 1699 to Kalsa. Kalsa mera satgura. Kalsa is my complete

mera satgura. Kalsa is my complete sguru.

sguru. In 1708

In 1708 it was also said to the kalsa from here

it was also said to the kalsa from here onward your charter that's the word I

onward your charter that's the word I use because scripture is misleading

use because scripture is misleading sometimes. Your charter is gurug grans

sometimes. Your charter is gurug grans which means when you have to interpret

which means when you have to interpret something you take it from here. These

something you take it from here. These this is where your directive principles

this is where your directive principles live. So guru ship was transferred to

live. So guru ship was transferred to guru grunt and guru pant which is means

guru grunt and guru pant which is means we are the people of faith. Faith comes

we are the people of faith. Faith comes from Barney.

from Barney. Barney is our original source of

Barney is our original source of strength and the interpreters of that

strength and the interpreters of that were supposed to be the kalsa. Obviously

were supposed to be the kalsa. Obviously in last 200 plus years everything has

in last 200 plus years everything has gotten hodgepodge and we have our work

gotten hodgepodge and we have our work cut out to revive that.

Uh thank you for that really illuminating uh discussion. uh in

illuminating uh discussion. uh in today's uh day and age as you mentioned

today's uh day and age as you mentioned we're living in a very increasingly

we're living in a very increasingly authoritarian time and uh u gurugin

authoritarian time and uh u gurugin singing gi has been u I would say has

singing gi has been u I would say has been appropriated by certain parties and

been appropriated by certain parties and certain figures uh as a as a figure uh

certain figures uh as a as a figure uh that places him against the other as uh

that places him against the other as uh you know as some as an as as some as an

you know as some as an as as some as an enemy of sorts like there's an there's

enemy of sorts like there's an there's an enemy and there's Guru Gobin Singh.

an enemy and there's Guru Gobin Singh. How do you think that the book and the

How do you think that the book and the way you've uh the way you say you've

way you've uh the way you say you've interpreted uh his writings and the way

interpreted uh his writings and the way people have written about him in the

people have written about him in the book can help us understand him maybe

book can help us understand him maybe differently from that does that make

differently from that does that make sense?

sense? >> Yes. Yes. No, I understand. And you use

>> Yes. Yes. No, I understand. And you use the term which is appropriate.

the term which is appropriate. Appropriation is the term used right?

Appropriation is the term used right? Yeah. I mean appropriation of the gurus

Yeah. I mean appropriation of the gurus has been going on for last 100 years.

has been going on for last 100 years. Just so you know. So sometimes we

Just so you know. So sometimes we overreact to the contemporary times. We

overreact to the contemporary times. We need to be

need to be aware of that every political party

aware of that every political party including the sick political parties

including the sick political parties have appropriated gurus.

have appropriated gurus. This is just a fact in last 100 years.

This is just a fact in last 100 years. Sometimes the thought leaders or the

Sometimes the thought leaders or the political leaders of India also have

political leaders of India also have done it. Uh the father of Indian nation

done it. Uh the father of Indian nation Gandhi Mr. Gandhi also appropriated

Gandhi Mr. Gandhi also appropriated Gurug goban Singh he did he used some

Gurug goban Singh he did he used some very unkind words for him

very unkind words for him uh when I look at very sensitive poets

uh when I look at very sensitive poets in this context I'm saying then we can

in this context I'm saying then we can see what happens in this context of one

see what happens in this context of one of the most sensitive poets of India

of the most sensitive poets of India Rabendra Tagore also appropriated

Rabendra Tagore also appropriated Guroban Singh wrote very harsh things

Guroban Singh wrote very harsh things about Gurugan Singh

about Gurugan Singh so when we are seeing it in contemporary

so when we are seeing it in contemporary times I'm seeing it in that you know the

times I'm seeing it in that you know the political ical structures of India don't

political ical structures of India don't define the guru. They all appropriate

but who gets to not appropriate when you are more aware who the guru is. Guru is

are more aware who the guru is. Guru is of everyone. This is why the shabbat is

of everyone. This is why the shabbat is more important. Guru's doctrine, guru's

more important. Guru's doctrine, guru's ideology, guru's paradigm is in the

ideology, guru's paradigm is in the wisdom.

wisdom. But

now I'm going to go back to historical angle for one second.

In Punjab, the regions at the time, the hills areas of Punjab in the Guroban

hills areas of Punjab in the Guroban Singh period, there were 22 kings.

Singh period, there were 22 kings. I want to tell you how real this is. If

I want to tell you how real this is. If you think today is bad, it is.

you think today is bad, it is. Of those 22 hill rajas,

Of those 22 hill rajas, 21 constantly changed their allegiance.

21 constantly changed their allegiance. Only one never changed.

Only one never changed. Raj of Nahandanda

Raj of Nahandanda and Gurugan Singh is dealing with this

and Gurugan Singh is dealing with this for more than almost 30 years.

for more than almost 30 years. So he's showing us how to navigate

So he's showing us how to navigate diplomacy of the guru, clarity of the

diplomacy of the guru, clarity of the guru, forgiving them because he

guru, forgiving them because he understands

understands but when Orurange did it as an emperor

but when Orurange did it as an emperor he had a direct response.

he had a direct response. I think this is something six need to

I think this is something six need to understand. But he also did not yell at

understand. But he also did not yell at orang. I want to say this.

how do you engage with a state which is far right or authoritarian?

far right or authoritarian? This is the timely aspect I think you

This is the timely aspect I think you were referring to. we are all going to

were referring to. we are all going to be uh going through these you know every

be uh going through these you know every 50 to 70 years now in a global cycles

50 to 70 years now in a global cycles it's 100 years later you're seeing what

it's 100 years later you're seeing what happened in Europe you you're seeing

happened in Europe you you're seeing this everywhere in America also now but

this everywhere in America also now but guru is showing us how to deal with this

guru is showing us how to deal with this in a loving manner but in a firm manner

in a loving manner but in a firm manner what do you write how do you conjure up

what do you write how do you conjure up their conscience at the same time be

their conscience at the same time be militarily prepared to fight them

militarily prepared to fight them so the love element I see missing a

so the love element I see missing a The fighting element is also missing. We

The fighting element is also missing. We are just fighting as a selectivist or

are just fighting as a selectivist or internet warriors largely.

internet warriors largely. So there's a preparation required to

So there's a preparation required to deal with it. So if my if I am connected

deal with it. So if my if I am connected to the one if I may interpret this then

to the one if I may interpret this then how I operate in public life will be a

how I operate in public life will be a little bit different.

yeah since uh human uh humanity or uh since the birth

since the birth we have all recognized uh uh

we have all recognized uh uh Christianity before that uh even uh

Christianity before that uh even uh Buddhism, Janism and now we as Sikhs uh

Buddhism, Janism and now we as Sikhs uh around uh 500 550 years back we have

around uh 500 550 years back we have been privileged to have the one guru

been privileged to have the one guru which has trans transferred to up to the

which has trans transferred to up to the number 10 but as you said he's only one

number 10 but as you said he's only one so one guru only we had

so one guru only we had uh but now we have been recognizing

uh but now we have been recognizing but in the future also because I feel

but in the future also because I feel that after the 10th also now we have the

that after the 10th also now we have the 11th guru gurug gran sah but

11th guru gurug gran sah but uh life has always given us so many

uh life has always given us so many people and you

people and you Even in the future how will we recognize

Even in the future how will we recognize that ah my guru has come here maybe the

that ah my guru has come here maybe the aar guru guru nanak is again going to

aar guru guru nanak is again going to take birth gurovin singh is going to

take birth gurovin singh is going to come I just want to recognize whether

come I just want to recognize whether it'll be able to recognize and whether

it'll be able to recognize and whether there aars will come

the earlier I had mentioned we have to come out of the seatic and afar mind

come out of the seatic and afar mind frame I'm a I'm a Obama generation we

frame I'm a I'm a Obama generation we are The messiahs we have been waiting

are The messiahs we have been waiting for. This is what Gurug goan Singh did.

for. This is what Gurug goan Singh did. Una vary if I may say Puran Singh

Una vary if I may say Puran Singh professor Puran Singh wrote about 100

professor Puran Singh wrote about 100 years ago and he wrote this line. He

years ago and he wrote this line. He said the guru did not create new art. He

said the guru did not create new art. He was busy developing new artists.

was busy developing new artists. Art

Art response has to be produced by you. You

response has to be produced by you. You are again waiting for a messiah. If you

are again waiting for a messiah. If you look at 100 years after Gobin Singh left

look at 100 years after Gobin Singh left this earth, that 100 years changed the

this earth, that 100 years changed the history of South Asia.

Punjab mention 750 years Punjab was an enslaved

mention 750 years Punjab was an enslaved state region.

After seven extermination campaigns, I want to tell you what Gurobin Singh did.

want to tell you what Gurobin Singh did. We have to understand and the whole of

We have to understand and the whole of it. It happened in Punjab but through

it. It happened in Punjab but through whole of South Asia because Punjaparees

whole of South Asia because Punjaparees came from all of South Asia.

came from all of South Asia. Literally after seven extermination

Literally after seven extermination campaigns, two larger Kalukaras where

campaigns, two larger Kalukaras where they killed half of the sick population

they killed half of the sick population in one day and two3 in the other time

in one day and two3 in the other time they declared Lahor to be their city in

they declared Lahor to be their city in 1765

1765 because they were only trained in two

because they were only trained in two things Shabbat and Nam and an external

things Shabbat and Nam and an external fight because that was the name nature

fight because that was the name nature of the war. What I want to say to you is

of the war. What I want to say to you is Gurugovin Singsh and Gurunanak's whole

Gurugovin Singsh and Gurunanak's whole journey on this earth for 238 years was

journey on this earth for 238 years was to not wait on anyone else.

to not wait on anyone else. So and it happened practically.

So and it happened practically. So since then if we are waiting for

So since then if we are waiting for somebody to come and do it's not going

somebody to come and do it's not going to happen. I'm going to move this

to happen. I'm going to move this towards book mention sing and let me go

towards book mention sing and let me go towards him. He dreamt of the guru. I

towards him. He dreamt of the guru. I dream of the guru too but the dream is a

dream of the guru too but the dream is a little bit different. Will I recognize

little bit different. Will I recognize the guru what the guru is asking me to

the guru what the guru is asking me to do?

do? So the dreaming as a as a boy who

So the dreaming as a as a boy who thought of gurug goan singh's portrait

thought of gurug goan singh's portrait only and now I'm not into portrait at

only and now I'm not into portrait at all in my own journey. The dream is this

all in my own journey. The dream is this is the last part of the chapter in Sri

is the last part of the chapter in Sri Guroba which I quote Gurug gobin Singh

Guroba which I quote Gurug gobin Singh went from Patner to set up Anandpur if I

went from Patner to set up Anandpur if I may say this is the work anur is the

may say this is the work anur is the city of joy

city of joy and s and

and s and sira

sira chandrasan sapat writes the last chapter

chandrasan sapat writes the last chapter after Guroban Singh left this earth and

after Guroban Singh left this earth and he repeats this line in multiple

he repeats this line in multiple stanzas. The job of the kalsa is to

stanzas. The job of the kalsa is to reestablish Anandapur. Anandagard and

reestablish Anandapur. Anandagard and Anandapur are used interchangeably.

Anandapur are used interchangeably. Anandag is a fort at Anandpur. Our job

Anandag is a fort at Anandpur. Our job is to create Anandapur's everywhere.

is to create Anandapur's everywhere. That's the begumura's practical aspect.

That's the begumura's practical aspect. So not a utopia that there's a city

So not a utopia that there's a city without sorrow but city where the bliss

without sorrow but city where the bliss is experienced which means citizens are

is experienced which means citizens are treated equally. Whether somebody

treated equally. Whether somebody believes in God or not is a non-issue.

believes in God or not is a non-issue. whether you believed. So um dream about

whether you believed. So um dream about the realities you want to change

but the point was basically if I may say it in a more generic sense sick

it in a more generic sense sick community now because we are invoking

community now because we are invoking sick community I'm going to use Indian

sick community I'm going to use Indian community at large here as well

you know the largest population in the world what are the Indian dreams

world what are the Indian dreams you know when Your dreams

you know when Your dreams don't exist and you're constantly

don't exist and you're constantly invoking memory. You're done. I say this

invoking memory. You're done. I say this about six. We are constantly invoking

about six. We are constantly invoking memory. We need to start invoking what

memory. We need to start invoking what is the next anandur? What does the next

is the next anandur? What does the next South Asia look like? What does it mean

South Asia look like? What does it mean if Germany can break borders and Vietnam

if Germany can break borders and Vietnam figured it out? Why can't we figure it

figured it out? Why can't we figure it out for Punjab and Bengal?

out for Punjab and Bengal? You got to dream bigger things. You have

You got to dream bigger things. You have the aptitudes.

the aptitudes. Gurugoan Singh consolidated people with

Gurugoan Singh consolidated people with aptitude. Gave them vision and gave them

aptitude. Gave them vision and gave them how to think about oneness. I'm going to

how to think about oneness. I'm going to come back to oneness. That's why. So

come back to oneness. That's why. So this oneness is the issue we are having.

this oneness is the issue we are having. Again we like to

Again we like to train analysis. What does analysis do?

train analysis. What does analysis do? Break down everything at the smallest

Break down everything at the smallest level. I'm an engineer too. I prefer to

level. I'm an engineer too. I prefer to do those. But this stuff the Shabbat is

do those. But this stuff the Shabbat is about synthesis.

about synthesis. How do you bring things together?

How do you bring things together? That's what creates oneness. It is a

That's what creates oneness. It is a crime in my opinion. This is my opinion

crime in my opinion. This is my opinion to analyze wisdom.

to analyze wisdom. You have to synthesize it. You don't

You have to synthesize it. You don't apply dicartian logics when you're

apply dicartian logics when you're studying wisdom.

studying wisdom. You leave that for other stuff. So it

You leave that for other stuff. So it synthesis the problem. This is where the

synthesis the problem. This is where the relevance of Gobin Singh's shabbad is

relevance of Gobin Singh's shabbad is incredibly huge opportunity for us to

incredibly huge opportunity for us to understand and have if the person from

understand and have if the person from Gujarat can understand it at the time of

Gujarat can understand it at the time of Guroban Singh I'm invoking Gujarat on

Guroban Singh I'm invoking Gujarat on purpose now

purpose now a person from Bther understood it and

a person from Bther understood it and these are the and one Punjabi guy also

these are the and one Punjabi guy also understood it

understood it other four are non-punjabies and I keep

other four are non-punjabies and I keep saying this on purpose One of them is a

saying this on purpose One of them is a barber.

Can you imagine that? A barber is listening to the message of Gurug Goen

listening to the message of Gurug Goen Singh on the Vasaki day and he gets

Singh on the Vasaki day and he gets excited and six immediately celebrate

excited and six immediately celebrate him and he's called Paisab Singh. Now so

him and he's called Paisab Singh. Now so guru is about creative excitement. Don't

guru is about creative excitement. Don't talk about what is not happening. Guru

talk about what is not happening. Guru is witnessing all that. Religious

is witnessing all that. Religious corruption, political corruption,

corruption, political corruption, economic subservience. He's witnessing

economic subservience. He's witnessing all that. But he's presenting not a

all that. But he's presenting not a blueprint but establishment of

blueprint but establishment of Anandapur. How do you deal with the

Anandapur. How do you deal with the crooks and the corrupts and the

crooks and the corrupts and the politicals but you have to be connected

politicals but you have to be connected yourself. Take people through a

yourself. Take people through a connection. Through that connection a

connection. Through that connection a new poetry is born. That's exactly what

new poetry is born. That's exactly what he did at Montasab. New poets were born.

he did at Montasab. New poets were born. A new warriors were born. They're not

A new warriors were born. They're not fighters anymore. Fighter's job is to

fighters anymore. Fighter's job is to they're trigger happy.

they're trigger happy. Warrior's job is not to use the gun.

Warrior's job is not to use the gun. use it as a last resort. That's safer

use it as a last resort. That's safer nama. So warriors are drenched in love.

nama. So warriors are drenched in love. So this is what Gurobin Singh did. He

So this is what Gurobin Singh did. He showed us the new trainings in utter

showed us the new trainings in utter chaos and actually made it a reality

chaos and actually made it a reality within two decades.

Sir, we are all trained uh to see ourselves as you know the children of

ourselves as you know the children of one god. But uh we you know the

one god. But uh we you know the percentage of us is very small but the

percentage of us is very small but the larger portion of them how do we preach

larger portion of them how do we preach uh this thing that you know we are the

uh this thing that you know we are the children of one god because my friends

children of one god because my friends and other people they say that you know

and other people they say that you know uh

and if you are a not a Christian you will go to hell. So how do I let them

will go to hell. So how do I let them know? How do we preach that you know we

know? How do we preach that you know we are all children of one God and we all

are all children of one God and we all do not have to fight and the fights

do not have to fight and the fights which are going on are so unnecessary.

which are going on are so unnecessary. This is a little bit outside of the

This is a little bit outside of the context. I'll bring it into our

context. I'll bring it into our conversation today and I'm going to

conversation today and I'm going to invoke

invoke first of all why do you need to preach?

first of all why do you need to preach? Madonna did a song when I was young papa

Madonna did a song when I was young papa don't preach. Forget the preachers.

don't preach. Forget the preachers. Preachers are part of the problems.

Preachers are part of the problems. Let's have fun with this little bit. But

Let's have fun with this little bit. But I'll take it in spirit.

I'll take it in spirit. So firstly,

So firstly, preaching the education gan

preaching the education gan guru literally means the one who

guru literally means the one who eliminates darkness.

eliminates darkness. Ethmologically that's the meaning. And

Ethmologically that's the meaning. And what is darkness? When we don't know

what is darkness? When we don't know what to do, right? We don't know what to

what to do, right? We don't know what to do. So we are in darkness.

do. So we are in darkness. >> I just want to

>> I just want to >> one second. One second.

>> one second. One second. I will but let me finish.

I will but let me finish. We are in darkness now. We don't know

We are in darkness now. We don't know what to do. So in darkness you don't

what to do. So in darkness you don't need spinning. You need gan.

need spinning. You need gan. Gan is all about wisdom and the shahad.

Gan is all about wisdom and the shahad. So there is no shortcut to it. That's my

So there is no shortcut to it. That's my answer. And I want to cite one line from

answer. And I want to cite one line from gurug gran sab. And don't try to tell

gurug gran sab. And don't try to tell everyone that you are children of god.

everyone that you are children of god. The guy doesn't believe in god the anugi

The guy doesn't believe in god the anugi fakpand.

fakpand. And I said because this is part of

And I said because this is part of Hindustani traditions too

and I'm going to now cite Gurugrabs just one line for this purpose for those of

one line for this purpose for those of you are trying to prove or disprove the

you are trying to prove or disprove the astics and Gurunanak wrote it very

astics and Gurunanak wrote it very clearly to him this is a not a polarity

clearly to him this is a not a polarity auton

now he says that one Again you see the one n

he says that one Again you see the one n the one identification that oneness is

the one identification that oneness is what I'm interested in this asset nasat

what I'm interested in this asset nasat is a polarity

is a polarity look at where we are where a thought is

look at where we are where a thought is so if you want to go towards that you

so if you want to go towards that you have to become more wide yourself

have to become more wide yourself somebody doesn't want to accept certain

somebody doesn't want to accept certain things let them be this is the whole

things let them be this is the whole freedom we are fighting for

freedom we are fighting for we don't need to prove or disprove

we don't need to prove or disprove anything we need to stand witness to it

anything we need to stand witness to it witness to the one for your own personal

witness to the one for your own personal connections.

connections. >> Yeah. Just Yeah. You wanted to add

>> Yeah. Just Yeah. You wanted to add something.

something. >> Yeah.

So like why we need religion? Okay. Why we need

Okay. Why we need >> that's

>> okay Dr. Bday. Yeah. >> Uh two questions. How fair is it to say

>> Uh two questions. How fair is it to say that the sick tradition of gurus has an

that the sick tradition of gurus has an element of nepotism in it because many

element of nepotism in it because many of them are blood relatives in fact

of them are blood relatives in fact usually the offspring. The second and a

usually the offspring. The second and a more direct question with regard to the

more direct question with regard to the shabat

shabat is there any reference to reincarnation

is there any reference to reincarnation as an accepted tenant.

as an accepted tenant. >> Um so there are three questions. I think

>> Um so there are three questions. I think that one is outside of the scope. You

that one is outside of the scope. You don't need it. If you don't need it,

don't need it. If you don't need it, don't worry about it. That's the whole

don't worry about it. That's the whole point I just made.

point I just made. Religion word

meaning it's about what one needs to stick to.

stick to. It's about behaviors.

It's about behaviors. You if your god is Richard Dawkins more

You if your god is Richard Dawkins more power to you

power to you but idea is behavior change. Okay. So

but idea is behavior change. Okay. So let's not say key whose god is better or

let's not say key whose god is better or not. And to come to your thing on the

not. And to come to your thing on the second question first because it's

second question first because it's related in the shabbuds he absolutely

related in the shabbuds he absolutely references it but disrupts it.

references it but disrupts it. Gurus are referencing the vocabulary of

Gurus are referencing the vocabulary of endologies and sematic traditions

endologies and sematic traditions but they are neither affirming or

but they are neither affirming or negating they're disrupting it.

negating they're disrupting it. So this is something the world was not

So this is something the world was not used to also you know they like kayar

used to also you know they like kayar you know sometimes people ask me do you

you know sometimes people ask me do you believe in this? I said, "What does it

believe in this? I said, "What does it matter whether I believe it or not? I'm

matter whether I believe it or not? I'm not here to affirm your thing."

not here to affirm your thing." This is what gurus are doing. They're

This is what gurus are doing. They're trying to imagine us to raise our own

trying to imagine us to raise our own consciousness and don't look at whether

consciousness and don't look at whether there is incarnation or not. What will

there is incarnation or not. What will it change?

it change? That's a philosophical debate.

That's a philosophical debate. So gurus absolutely even in this 10

So gurus absolutely even in this 10 shabbuds, two shabbads get into

shabbuds, two shabbads get into reincarnations oft

reincarnations oft look what were they able to accomplish.

look what were they able to accomplish. So why don't we think about what I need

So why don't we think about what I need to accomplish? See this is the

to accomplish? See this is the disruption.

disruption. So the first part you said on nepotism

So the first part you said on nepotism that's a larger thing which is covered

that's a larger thing which is covered in one section that I think

in one section that I think the data is incomplete. So it seems that

the data is incomplete. So it seems that way um uh the gurus in their transfer of

way um uh the gurus in their transfer of leadership if I may call it that into

leadership if I may call it that into contemporary parlance they are the

contemporary parlance they are the criteria is not understood. The criteria

criteria is not understood. The criteria was never whether it's family or not.

was never whether it's family or not. And the reason I can say that is because

And the reason I can say that is because in gurug gransab it says exactly what

in gurug gransab it says exactly what the criteria was and that criteria was

the criteria was and that criteria was dagon. There is a composition in gurug

dagon. There is a composition in gurug gransab only of eight stanzas. So if

gransab only of eight stanzas. So if anyone's interested in the historical

anyone's interested in the historical tradition of the six that's a

tradition of the six that's a composition to study it's called

composition to study it's called rakaliki satywiki

rakaliki satywiki eight stanzas. Yeah. It talks about

eight stanzas. Yeah. It talks about first leadership transfer and then the

first leadership transfer and then the next four while the individuals wrote it

next four while the individuals wrote it because only four had happened by then

because only four had happened by then they do not talk they said everyone is

they do not talk they said everyone is being checked

the sons the followers and eventually it also to word is also used. He says

also to word is also used. He says everyone is being assessed.

everyone is being assessed. In some cases there is no direct

In some cases there is no direct descendant. In other cases there are

descendant. In other cases there are descendants. The criteria was never

descendants. The criteria was never whether they are in the family or not.

whether they are in the family or not. Criteria was do they have divine

Criteria was do they have divine qualities. Dagon is the word used. So

qualities. Dagon is the word used. So what I'm submitting to you is some

what I'm submitting to you is some reconsideration with more data that we

reconsideration with more data that we don't every leadership transfer has

don't every leadership transfer has their qualification.

their qualification. >> In the sick world people have not

>> In the sick world people have not understood from the sick sources what

understood from the sick sources what the qualification was.

the qualification was. >> Yeah. And let me just add one or two

>> Yeah. And let me just add one or two things even to sir here. I mean like

things even to sir here. I mean like these stories are lying you know in the

these stories are lying you know in the sik verse so to say the first five gurus

sik verse so to say the first five gurus were not direct family members at all.

were not direct family members at all. But when jiangir

But when jiangir martyed guru arjun sahib you know the

martyed guru arjun sahib you know the fifth guru after that something shifted

fifth guru after that something shifted in the way the gurus were being decided

in the way the gurus were being decided you know. So the ninth guru is actually

you know. So the ninth guru is actually the grandfather you know. So, so there

the grandfather you know. So, so there are shifts happening and you were

are shifts happening and you were looking for how to identify we have the

looking for how to identify we have the Baba Bakala story you know that's how

Baba Bakala story you know that's how you identify if you want a leader you

you identify if you want a leader you know anyway it is his evening no but but

know anyway it is his evening no but but I don't want it to become this a

I don't want it to become this a reactionary thing also let me bring it

reactionary thing also let me bring it back to Goban Singh from a

back to Goban Singh from a family descendancy angle partly what

family descendancy angle partly what you're saying nepotism

you're saying nepotism you So

this guru from a human angle now because family is human angle. This guru

family is human angle. This guru literally every member of his family

literally every member of his family offered themselves to death.

offered themselves to death. We are not looking at that element.

We are not looking at that element. Sman Dandi every you know what human

Sman Dandi every you know what human tendency is human condition rather

tendency is human condition rather everything we do is for our children

everything we do is for our children almost everything

almost everything and Gurugoan Singh is doing his mother

and Gurugoan Singh is doing his mother his grandmother his father his children

his grandmother his father his children you name it all the way to

fifth guru everything is being done to secure freedoms

secure freedoms but direct opportunity cost in today's

but direct opportunity cost in today's parlance

parlance of everything family should do first. So

of everything family should do first. So family I don't wanted to make this about

family I don't wanted to make this about family or not but I want to give you a

family or not but I want to give you a human angle. That's what I just did.

human angle. That's what I just did. Everything Gurug go Singh did was to

Everything Gurug go Singh did was to make sure his family is first in the

make sure his family is first in the line

line for sacrifices.

for sacrifices. No legacy of family. So sick legacy

No legacy of family. So sick legacy that's why is never a biological legacy.

that's why is never a biological legacy. Sik legacy has always been about who

Sik legacy has always been about who will carry the wisdom ideas forward and

will carry the wisdom ideas forward and practically work on the governance of

practically work on the governance of it.

It was a wonderful session but maybe out of context but with a scholarly work and

of context but with a scholarly work and the contemporary political scenario.

the contemporary political scenario. Where do you see the drift happening

Where do you see the drift happening from siki to the current challenges

from siki to the current challenges which we face as a as a sikism and the

which we face as a as a sikism and the sikis

sikis drift is not current. It has always been

drift is not current. It has always been there including at the time of gurunanak

there including at the time of gurunanak and this is the fallacy which I want to

and this is the fallacy which I want to deal with a lot. Everything was

deal with a lot. Everything was happening within the guru period. The

happening within the guru period. The drift happened when the leadership was

drift happened when the leadership was transferred. The descendant wanted to be

transferred. The descendant wanted to be the guru.

the guru. So drift happened right there also.

So drift happened right there also. in a corporate sense because to see

in a corporate sense because to see Bangalore let me use that example now

Bangalore let me use that example now look in corporations when there is a

look in corporations when there is a negative thing happens does everyone do

negative thing happens does everyone do damage control

damage control who will work on the product development

who will work on the product development so when the first leadership transfer

so when the first leadership transfer happened there was lot of chaos every

happened there was lot of chaos every leadership transfer has problems not

leadership transfer has problems not everyone accepts it it's okay but your

everyone accepts it it's okay but your criteria has to be clear that he was

criteria has to be clear that he was sent to continue the work in a different

sent to continue the work in a different city while Guranak did the damage

city while Guranak did the damage control. So our data is so clear on

control. So our data is so clear on this. It's documented. So drift is

this. It's documented. So drift is always there. People who make sure

always there. People who make sure they're not drifted are the ones who are

they're not drifted are the ones who are connected.

connected. They continue the mission. The mission

They continue the mission. The mission in guru granshab is very simple that

in guru granshab is very simple that idea. These are the two words from

idea. These are the two words from indology which are completely owned in

indology which are completely owned in gurug grans sahab. Shabbat is for us to

gurug grans sahab. Shabbat is for us to create understandings,

create understandings, deeper understandings. N is to have that

deeper understandings. N is to have that experience.

experience. This is the most simplest way I can do

This is the most simplest way I can do it. So whenever there's a drift, we have

it. So whenever there's a drift, we have to come back to Shabbat and N.

to come back to Shabbat and N. The externalization of that is how you

The externalization of that is how you practically deal with the economics, the

practically deal with the economics, the politics or everything else around

politics or everything else around nepotism included.

uh Reinda Singh thank you so much uh for uh bringing this topic. I think you

uh bringing this topic. I think you emphasized on the fact the importance of

emphasized on the fact the importance of the same light or the one light in all

the same light or the one light in all the 10 gurus right and the importance of

the 10 gurus right and the importance of the sh that you emphasize it on I just

the sh that you emphasize it on I just want to understand from you uh there are

want to understand from you uh there are other scriptures which has been written

other scriptures which has been written by gurug guru gobin singing g which has

by gurug guru gobin singing g which has been not been talked about a lot like

been not been talked about a lot like for example uh dasamani and sarablo

for example uh dasamani and sarablo right so I want to understand from your

right so I want to understand from your viewpoint based on the work that you

viewpoint based on the work that you have done if it's a same light on in all

have done if it's a same light on in all the 10 gurus right what was the

the 10 gurus right what was the objective ive or thought process of

objective ive or thought process of coming up with the surplus or the dasi

coming up with the surplus or the dasi because we read in an right

because we read in an right it's the concept if it's the concept of

it's the concept if it's the concept of the oneness right that was being

the oneness right that was being propagated or the importance of the sh

propagated or the importance of the sh what according to you was the thought

what according to you was the thought process the idea of coming up with these

process the idea of coming up with these grunts by gurug guru go singh especially

grunts by gurug guru go singh especially >> I mean this is a 1enter question but I

>> I mean this is a 1enter question but I don't want you to think I don't want to

don't want you to think I don't want to answer but short answer is this I in

answer but short answer is this I in fact have written written only two lines

fact have written written only two lines on this in the whole book. When

on this in the whole book. When something becomes divisive, you have to

something becomes divisive, you have to clarify the litmus test. So I'm focused

clarify the litmus test. So I'm focused on that. And the line I've written just

on that. And the line I've written just to the pro- Dasamrant and anti-dasamrant

to the pro- Dasamrant and anti-dasamrant people. I welcome you to read it. And my

people. I welcome you to read it. And my whole point is you cannot be discussing

whole point is you cannot be discussing secondary texts too much if you don't

secondary texts too much if you don't have an agreement on the primary text.

have an agreement on the primary text. In the primary text there's a 100%

In the primary text there's a 100% agreement. Let's develop that clarity.

agreement. Let's develop that clarity. Okay.

>> Thank you. I think you've covered uh so much uh in this conversation and I think

much uh in this conversation and I think uh one of the things that's really got

uh one of the things that's really got me piked is uh you said we've got our

me piked is uh you said we've got our work cut out for us when we were talking

work cut out for us when we were talking about the path back I think uh just at

about the path back I think uh just at the uh conclusion before the question

the uh conclusion before the question and answer session began.

and answer session began. But that also is scary right because uh

But that also is scary right because uh if you look at the lives of the gurus

if you look at the lives of the gurus especially guru gubin singh gi like you

especially guru gubin singh gi like you just mentioned he sacrificed everything

just mentioned he sacrificed everything is that so what does in that context

is that so what does in that context what does the path back look for look

what does the path back look for look like for us and does it mean that we

like for us and does it mean that we have to be ready for like those kind of

have to be ready for like those kind of sacrifices

sacrifices and what what are the steps that we take

and what what are the steps that we take how do we how do we go back how do we

how do we how do we go back how do we coales as a community as a religion in

coales as a community as a religion in whatever words not maybe not in the

whatever words not maybe not in the sense of religion per se but siki itself

sense of religion per se but siki itself and that spirit of the kala how does

and that spirit of the kala how does that come along

that come along >> so first of all it's a path forward not

>> so first of all it's a path forward not back

back >> path forward but words are important you

>> path forward but words are important you see

see we I already said don't go back

we I already said don't go back if you're interested

You got to go look ahead. None of the gurus or the kalsas and this is where I

gurus or the kalsas and this is where I will mention let's let's broaden this a

will mention let's let's broaden this a little bit because we're talking about

little bit because we're talking about gurug goven Singh when gurug goan singh

gurug goven Singh when gurug goan singh is looking at when he's born in pata who

is looking at when he's born in pata who are his allies

are his allies 90% are non six

90% are non six this is the part where I'm I think

this is the part where I'm I think failing to transfer

failing to transfer that the guru creates excitement

that the guru creates excitement creative excitement is the phrase I use

creative excitement is the phrase I use these days and that creative

these days and that creative that town

you know they um there's a king on the t of the town and mah I was just in pata I

of the town and mah I was just in pata I was reading the boards and I hear the

was reading the boards and I hear the sakis nobody mentions the name of the

sakis nobody mentions the name of the queen vishradevi

queen vishradevi she she's childless and his is a child

she she's childless and his is a child guru balapriam as they say you

guru balapriam as they say you He one day he just goes and sits in her

He one day he just goes and sits in her lap. She's like, "I'm yours."

lap. She's like, "I'm yours." She's like, "How is this possible? You

She's like, "How is this possible? You have a mother named Gujari.

have a mother named Gujari. He's like like a moon shines in two legs

He's like like a moon shines in two legs at the same time." What a subju.

at the same time." What a subju. This is where we started today that the

This is where we started today that the love element the sentiments of the

love element the sentiments of the people

people and you know from there you go not even

and you know from there you go not even a kilometer

again she's from a Hindu tradition in that sense if you want to classify I'm

that sense if you want to classify I'm just doing it just to explain otherwise

just doing it just to explain otherwise I'm not interested in that we already

I'm not interested in that we already discussed that this classification is

discussed that this classification is part of the problem but there are two

part of the problem but there are two guys who are of Muslim background

The work of the guru was to bring people together. It's the integration project.

together. It's the integration project. Doesn't matter what the polarity is.

Doesn't matter what the polarity is. There's there endless polarities which

There's there endless polarities which we discussed earlier. And part of that

we discussed earlier. And part of that work was transferred to Kalsa.

work was transferred to Kalsa. And if the Kalsa those who claim to be

And if the Kalsa those who claim to be or wanting to join that which has been

or wanting to join that which has been disrupted very seriously. We were the

disrupted very seriously. We were the scholar poets you know and I'm going to

scholar poets you know and I'm going to quickly come to that now. If you look at

quickly come to that now. If you look at the legacy of the gurus, people who

the legacy of the gurus, people who fought the battles were scholars and

fought the battles were scholars and musicians. The world had never seen that

musicians. The world had never seen that the scribe and a theologian and a

the scribe and a theologian and a mediator can fight like that.

mediator can fight like that. That's Baba Deepep Singh. Those of you

That's Baba Deepep Singh. Those of you know the name

know the name and they're like, you know, like today

and they're like, you know, like today you'll say, "God damn it, man. This guy

you'll say, "God damn it, man. This guy can fight. I thought he was just a

can fight. I thought he was just a scholar."

scholar." 100 years ago when there's a protest in

100 years ago when there's a protest in the British at the Jetto Mora

the British at the Jetto Mora the number one ragi or musician

the number one ragi or musician instrumentalist a vocalist is sitting at

instrumentalist a vocalist is sitting at the protest and doing that shabat by

the protest and doing that shabat by jala singh

jala singh those of you know the name you know one

those of you know the name you know one of the major ragis of the time

of the major ragis of the time today we are losing those things today

today we are losing those things today we are only performing so I think the

we are only performing so I think the work is the path forward has always been

work is the path forward has always been about understand people's and issues ues

about understand people's and issues ues and emotions

and emotions treat them at that level and one is not

treat them at that level and one is not able to if one is not connected

able to if one is not connected themselves. So when I'm disconnected,

themselves. So when I'm disconnected, I'm going to give disconnected

I'm going to give disconnected responses. I'm going to give harsh

responses. I'm going to give harsh responses. But when you're connected,

responses. But when you're connected, you will do it in love. And some places

you will do it in love. And some places you exercise tough love, still love.

you exercise tough love, still love. So path is only that for the all

So path is only that for the all humanity.

humanity. And Guruggo Singh doubled down on that.

And Guruggo Singh doubled down on that. This is why when he says the only way is

This is why when he says the only way is to do it in love. It cannot be in any

to do it in love. It cannot be in any other way.

Supreme polarity took place in the last 20 minutes. All

took place in the last 20 minutes. All the questions were for men.

the questions were for men. >> Yeah.

>> Because men are constantly occupying these spaces.

these spaces. >> And look, two of us also.

>> And look, two of us also. >> That's a good one. Siman says we are not

>> That's a good one. Siman says we are not so lost.

so lost. No, but uh last two Yeah, but last two

No, but uh last two Yeah, but last two three minutes if any lady would like to

three minutes if any lady would like to ask or you know or comment or

ask or you know or comment or >> and I would also like those who don't

>> and I would also like those who don't identify selfidentify as six please ask

identify selfidentify as six please ask more cuz this is about all of us and six

more cuz this is about all of us and six should not hog up all the time.

>> Yeah. Uh thank you for pointing that out. Uh I was thinking along those lines

out. Uh I was thinking along those lines where how none of the girls or women

where how none of the girls or women have said anything. Um I mostly have

have said anything. Um I mostly have comments. Um don't have a question

comments. Um don't have a question because I know that I have a lot to

because I know that I have a lot to learn. Um and uh uh so really the

learn. Um and uh uh so really the comment is that

comment is that uh I suppose uh I'm curious about what's

uh I suppose uh I'm curious about what's in the book. if there's a gender angle

in the book. if there's a gender angle also that you've taken maybe you have uh

also that you've taken maybe you have uh in terms of Guru Gobin Singh's life and

in terms of Guru Gobin Singh's life and uh um I do have a it's a bit of a

uh um I do have a it's a bit of a controversial question actually I have

controversial question actually I have >> I welcome those

>> I welcome those >> okay in general this has just been a

>> okay in general this has just been a question that I've had when when I go

question that I've had when when I go into sick history is how some of uh I

into sick history is how some of uh I think Gurobin Singh he had like two

think Gurobin Singh he had like two wives three wives so I I don't quite

wives three wives so I I don't quite like that idea

like that idea um I don't know what do Do you have

um I don't know what do Do you have anything to say about that?

anything to say about that? >> Well,

>> Well, I can have fun with it. We also live in

I can have fun with it. We also live in a land where one woman had five husband.

a land where one woman had five husband. >> None. None in the sick history.

>> None. None in the sick history. >> So, I'm just having fun with it. Look, I

>> So, I'm just having fun with it. Look, I get it. So, let's explore both. Okay.

get it. So, let's explore both. Okay. Um,

Um, let's let's just deal with the multiple

let's let's just deal with the multiple wife issue. I'm going to actually take

wife issue. I'm going to actually take you through my journey on this. I have

you through my journey on this. I have many of my own journeys. So, I have

many of my own journeys. So, I have heard six say all sorts of answers. Oh

heard six say all sorts of answers. Oh no no no there was only one you know the

no no no there was only one you know the name was changed or no there was a one

name was changed or no there was a one who never had a conjugal relationship

who never had a conjugal relationship and at some point when I started

and at some point when I started traveling and studying this I went to

traveling and studying this I went to memorial site of all three so I'm like

memorial site of all three so I'm like tint

tint so and then I checked some secondary

so and then I checked some secondary text and some stuff which is written in

text and some stuff which is written in an encyclopedic way they all gave their

an encyclopedic way they all gave their references so the preachers had to be

references so the preachers had to be they didn't have an answer so they made

they didn't have an answer so they made up answers

up answers This is why preaching has never been a

This is why preaching has never been a sick tradition. I actually am going to

sick tradition. I actually am going to double down on that word. Pcharak word

double down on that word. Pcharak word pchar is the word used these days

pchar is the word used these days politics. Pcharak means propagandist.

politics. Pcharak means propagandist. I'm into education.

I'm into education. So we can work with it or we can say we

So we can work with it or we can say we don't know. So when I started looking

don't know. So when I started looking into that what I discovered is

into that what I discovered is many things don't sit well with us

many things don't sit well with us because we are in a operating ecosystem

because we are in a operating ecosystem of 2026 now you have to look at

of 2026 now you have to look at ecosystems of that time I'm not

ecosystems of that time I'm not justifying I'm explaining what we do

justifying I'm explaining what we do know there were three

know there were three two he had conjugal relationships with

two he had conjugal relationships with because three sons were one from one and

because three sons were one from one and one from the other that is Most

one from the other that is Most historians

historians uh intersect on that. Third one, there

uh intersect on that. Third one, there was no conjugal relationship. She's the

was no conjugal relationship. She's the mother of the kalsa.

mother of the kalsa. So that's so now we are down to multiple

So that's so now we are down to multiple wife to three three to two or and one.

wife to three three to two or and one. My grandfather's generation

My grandfather's generation they used to have two wives. This is a

they used to have two wives. This is a fact even 100 plus years ago.

fact even 100 plus years ago. Everybody common. So ethics if I may say

Everybody common. So ethics if I may say it like this ethical codes are

it like this ethical codes are constantly changing in society

constantly changing in society and this has to do with that

and this has to do with that uh there were many things now can one do

uh there were many things now can one do justice or not those are the kind of

justice or not those are the kind of questions I also have what kind of

questions I also have what kind of relationship they had two of them and

relationship they had two of them and three of them I also explore those but

three of them I also explore those but this is all I know right now that's it

this is all I know right now that's it there is an injunction

there is an injunction in the legal systems when there's a

in the legal systems when there's a codification which happened in societies

codification which happened in societies then many societies adopted one one man

then many societies adopted one one man one woman but there's man men woman

one woman but there's man men woman women too

women too so

so the boundaries shift based on the

the boundaries shift based on the ecosystems you are in and I don't think

ecosystems you are in and I don't think and I think we must respect any one of

and I think we must respect any one of them who am I to say marriage

them who am I to say marriage so there are legal codes but legal Codes

so there are legal codes but legal Codes are based on what? They're always based

are based on what? They're always based on exclusions.

on exclusions. This is what law means. What is not

This is what law means. What is not allowed yet and I'm a guy who says,

allowed yet and I'm a guy who says, "Yeah, it's not allowed yet. So let's

"Yeah, it's not allowed yet. So let's fight that." That's what we call rights

fight that." That's what we call rights battles. Right? So this is what guru

battles. Right? So this is what guru did. Guru had actually disrupted this

did. Guru had actually disrupted this world. And I want to mention Gurug Govan

world. And I want to mention Gurug Govan Singh. One thing in this regard, people

Singh. One thing in this regard, people talk about protocols. Six are also

talk about protocols. Six are also confused about protocols. As I

confused about protocols. As I understand it, he only did one major

understand it, he only did one major injunction of this nature and that every

injunction of this nature and that every sik and every Indian needs to know

sik and every Indian needs to know because that injunction is still not

because that injunction is still not being followed.

Daughter killers whether it's the infanticide from the modern techniques

infanticide from the modern techniques or the older ways he's like even they

or the older ways he's like even they are not condemned by the way because

are not condemned by the way because guru doesn't condemn anyone. We all have

guru doesn't condemn anyone. We all have access to be get connected at some point

access to be get connected at some point if we choose to. He says but people who

if we choose to. He says but people who are actually killing their daughters.

are actually killing their daughters. By the way, Guranak's clan was known to

By the way, Guranak's clan was known to kill their daughters. So look at how

kill their daughters. So look at how they're tackling everything. They don't

they're tackling everything. They don't they're not nepotistic in that sense.

they're not nepotistic in that sense. They're actually questioning them.

They're actually questioning them. one injunction he did and he only said

one injunction he did and he only said rotibange in Punjabi colloquialism means

rotibange in Punjabi colloquialism means don't party with them and develop

don't party with them and develop relativeness there like relations that's

relativeness there like relations that's it even then you have to dialogue to

it even then you have to dialogue to change behaviors so I would say we

change behaviors so I would say we should stick to some basic protocol

should stick to some basic protocol which is very clear which are sensible

which is very clear which are sensible rest is between the pract is between I

rest is between the pract is between I actually I don't even say practitioner

actually I don't even say practitioner it is between the lover and the beloved

it is between the lover and the beloved because in guru granshab it says in Love

because in guru granshab it says in Love there are no rules.

Burn away that custom which makes you take you away from your beloved. So

take you away from your beloved. So Guruan Singh is dealing with that and

Guruan Singh is dealing with that and rest of the gurus

rest of the gurus women

and I want to mention to you when Gurovan Singh leaves this earth those

Gurovan Singh leaves this earth those three women we talked about for next 30

three women we talked about for next 30 years they played a prominent role in

years they played a prominent role in the survivals and the Sarbat kalsas

the survivals and the Sarbat kalsas which is a collective decision-making in

which is a collective decision-making in the Singput and they are not just being

the Singput and they are not just being talked about

talked about and in Delhi

and in Delhi you know where the power center at the

you know where the power center at the time was and how do you survive the

time was and how do you survive the onslaught and exterminations and one of

onslaught and exterminations and one of them trained the next leader of the six

them trained the next leader of the six who I referenced earlier in 1765 when

who I referenced earlier in 1765 when six captured L'ore was trained by one of

six captured L'ore was trained by one of the wives of the gurus his name is just

the wives of the gurus his name is just singing Aluia

singing Aluia >> okay one more lady from this side

>> um as the conversation has been going on I I've been in conversation with myself

I I've been in conversation with myself and uh that's the reason I didn't speak

and uh that's the reason I didn't speak before. I had one question sir to do

before. I had one question sir to do with what you said about fixations of

with what you said about fixations of the mind. You said that gurus have tried

the mind. You said that gurus have tried to remove the fixations of the mind. My

to remove the fixations of the mind. My question is whether this fixations were

question is whether this fixations were there stereotypes or were they

there stereotypes or were they symbolisms and what is the difference

symbolisms and what is the difference between a stereotype and a symbolism and

between a stereotype and a symbolism and whether symbolisms are something we

whether symbolisms are something we should that we should welcome as they

should that we should welcome as they are also a part of siki or something

are also a part of siki or something that we should let go of because he also

that we should let go of because he also said that we shouldn't analyze we should

said that we shouldn't analyze we should synchronize. So this is my question. Um,

synchronize. So this is my question. Um, thank you for asking that. It's very to

thank you for asking that. It's very to philosophical. But by the way, I never

philosophical. But by the way, I never use the word should. Should should is

use the word should. Should should is for preachers.

for preachers. I mean,

I mean, who's going to decide karna jahida.

who's going to decide karna jahida. Gurug gransab has does not have a whole

Gurug gransab has does not have a whole and the shabas which we picked

and the shabas which we picked equivalent word is not used in gurug

equivalent word is not used in gurug gransab. They are saying I am doing

gransab. They are saying I am doing this. 95% of the shabas are in first

this. 95% of the shabas are in first person. Let me invoke the first shabas

person. Let me invoke the first shabas selected here to answer this a little

selected here to answer this a little bit. It's talking about

bit. It's talking about and gurug goan Singh says ray manasa

he's saying talking to his mind he's not saying you do this which is

he's not saying you do this which is imperative shorts are imperatives

imperative shorts are imperatives you're ordering someone to do it you see

you're ordering someone to do it you see the approach is completely different so

the approach is completely different so he's the so mind is what Barney talks

he's the so mind is what Barney talks about what kind of thought process needs

about what kind of thought process needs to be in the mind and we neurological

to be in the mind and we neurological signals are sent from brain. That's what

signals are sent from brain. That's what your eyes see and feets walk toward it.

your eyes see and feets walk toward it. This is very clear in today's sciences.

This is very clear in today's sciences. So 95% of the focus is on the mind. Then

So 95% of the focus is on the mind. Then he talks about prani the being. Prani

he talks about prani the being. Prani literally is the one with breaths. He

literally is the one with breaths. He says the one with the breaths you know

says the one with the breaths you know your time's coming. So he talks about

your time's coming. So he talks about death there. So the vocabulary is so

death there. So the vocabulary is so rich and we should not just translate

rich and we should not just translate them as being uh a man or god. we

them as being uh a man or god. we already create a patriarchy there and

already create a patriarchy there and they are usually genderless.

they are usually genderless. So I would say uh symbolisms have their

So I would say uh symbolisms have their place their metaphors. This is poetry.

place their metaphors. This is poetry. In poetry nothing is ever literal.

In poetry nothing is ever literal. It starts with literalism but it goes

It starts with literalism but it goes metaphorical.

metaphorical. So this is the way to look at it. You

So this is the way to look at it. You poetry is always metaphorical. They have

poetry is always metaphorical. They have their place. Symbols have meanings. If

their place. Symbols have meanings. If you want to understand much more on

you want to understand much more on that, I would say read uh uh there are

that, I would say read uh uh there are many works available including hero with

many works available including hero with a thousand faces

a thousand faces um and things of that nature.

um and things of that nature. >> It's very interesting in this hall that

>> It's very interesting in this hall that the clock is right there you know like

the clock is right there you know like and now it has crossed

and now it has crossed uh you could ask the question later on

uh you could ask the question later on in the height.

in the height. >> Thank you so much uh Mr. Harinder Singh

>> Thank you so much uh Mr. Harinder Singh and Mr. Mandep for this very very

and Mr. Mandep for this very very insightful and interesting discussion

insightful and interesting discussion that we've had. We could continue this

that we've had. We could continue this discussion over high tea and the books

discussion over high tea and the books are available. You could please uh pick

are available. You could please uh pick up your copies outside. Thank you very

up your copies outside. Thank you very much. Have a good evening.

much. Have a good evening. >> May I take 30 seconds because I don't

>> May I take 30 seconds because I don't want to end on that kind of a note. I

want to end on that kind of a note. I actually want to cite

actually want to cite pine nandala lal goa's two lines to you

pine nandala lal goa's two lines to you because this is this is what I'm most

because this is this is what I'm most interested in is as I've understood

interested in is as I've understood gurug goan singh and it's from one of

gurug goan singh and it's from one of the guzzles and the line is

the guzzles and the line is majet

but it's any oral tradition that's a genre of writing Right? He says and harf

genre of writing Right? He says and harf you know means letters quand

you know means letters quand like so much is this is pandal writing

like so much is this is pandal writing he's like so much is being written from

he's like so much is being written from the oral tradition about you

the oral tradition about you so this is a battle of narratives we

so this is a battle of narratives we call it today but his answer what I love

call it today but his answer what I love and this is why I'm sharing this he says

what is being described written in orally and other ways.

So this is the game of love. On the path of this game of love, I'm available for

of this game of love, I'm available for conversation.

conversation. So he's basically saying narrative

So he's basically saying narrative battle is always there. What is being

battle is always there. What is being written

written RSS congress? So what

RSS congress? So what the question is we are here to talk

the question is we are here to talk about the love. the love which guru

about the love. the love which guru brought and he practiced and panal Goya

brought and he practiced and panal Goya says I'm interested in the conversation

says I'm interested in the conversation with those who are walking on the path

with those who are walking on the path of love.

of love. Thank you.

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YouTube Transcript:Guru Gobind Singh Sahib: Life, Vision & Wisdom | Book Conversation | Bengaluru