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The Defecting Sleeper KGB Spy - Jack Barsky | DEEP FOCUS with John Kiriakou | Deep Focus with John Kiriakou | YouTubeToText
YouTube Transcript: The Defecting Sleeper KGB Spy - Jack Barsky | DEEP FOCUS with John Kiriakou
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This content is an interview with Jack Barski, a former KGB illegal agent who spied in the United States for a decade. It details his recruitment, deep cover operations, eventual defection from Soviet intelligence, and his subsequent life as an American citizen, offering a unique perspective on Cold War espionage and personal transformation.
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One of the agents uh whispered into my
ears when he caught up with me while I
was waiting for the subway for for the A
train from Queens to uh Manhattan.
So it it was dark and cold in a de
December morning and he whispered to me
they already had given me signals and so
I had not responded to the signals and
he whispered to me he says you know you
Hi I'm John Kuryaku and welcome back to
Deep Focus. When I was working at the
CIA in the counterterrorism center, I
had a friend there who uh was not a very
good case officer. He was a lovely guy,
but the work just wasn't really for him.
His name was Joe Weissberg. One day I
went into the office and he walked up to
me and he said, "Hey, I quit today." I
said, "You quit? What are you going to
do?" He said, "Well, I'm not married. I
don't have any kids, so I think I'm
going to go to Hollywood and find my
fortune." He wrote a novel that was
pretty pretty good. It was redacted by
the CIA in parts, but it was pretty
good. And then I saw him in the New York
Times as the creator of the hottest new
TV show in America. It was called The Americans.
Americans.
And it went for seven seasons. It made
him rich beyond his wildest dreams. But
this show was about something called KGB
illegals. They were people who live in
the United States. all across the
country and present as Americans. But in
fact, they're working secretly for the
KGB. It was a fantastic idea for a TV
series. Well, today I am delighted to
speak with somebody who actually was a
KGB illegal. Jack Barski spent a decade
spying in the United States under a
false identity before ultimately
severing his ties with Soviet
intelligence and building a new life as
an American citizen. His story combines
cold war intrigue with a striking
personal transformation from from a
committed communist to an outspoken
critic of the system that once employed
him. He was born in East Germany. He was
a gifted student who became a chemistry
lecturer before being secretly recruited
by the KGB in the 1970s.
Selected for this elite illegals program
because of his intelligence and his
aptitude for foreign languages which is
very important in that world. He
underwent years of intensive training in
tradecraftraft in surveillance in
clandestine communications in East Germany.
Germany.
In 1979, he entered the United States
under the stolen identity Jack Phillip
Barski based on the birth certificate of
a deceased American child. And he
quietly began his new existence as a
sleeper agent. Jack settled in New York.
He obtained legitimate employment
eventually in the insurance and IT
industries and focused on building his
new American cover while carrying out
relatively low-level intelligence tasks
like profiling potential recruits and
reporting on US public opinion during
key Cold War crisis. Over time, he got
married, he started a family, and he
found himself increasingly drawn to
ordinary American life, which gradually
eroded his ideological commitment to
communism. In the late 1980s, after
ignoring an urgent KGB recall order, he
cut himself off from Moscow, using a
fabricated story about having contracted
HIV, betting that the Soviets would not
then come after him. He was right. Years
later though, the FBI confronted him and
he cooperated fully, becoming a valuable
source of information on KGB methods and
ultimately avoiding any prosecution.
Today, Jack is a US citizen. He's a
corporate IT professional and he's a
public speaker known for his memoir,
Deep Undercover, in which he reflects on
identity, loyalty, and redemption. So, I
am just tickled pink to be able to
welcome Jack Barski to the show. Jack,
thank you for joining us. We're so glad
to have you.
>> Delighted. And this was the the best
introduction I've ever heard. So, so
that summary with that summary, we can
maybe conclude the the session here,
>> right? We'll just call it a day.
>> So, but you said ordinary American life.
I will want to change this to
extraordinary. the the life that I
created here for myself was phenomenal.
And I'm not a corporate individual
anymore. Now I'm an entrepreneur, which
is not quite as phenomenal, but more interesting.
interesting.
>> There you go. There you go. I wasn't
kidding when I said that Joe Weisberg
created something in the Americans that
was just captivating. Yeah.
>> And I can't tell you how many people
over the years asked me, "Is that true?
Did the did the KGB really do something
like that? And the answer is, oh yes.
And not only did they do it, but they
did it quite successfully. It was as
recently as three or four years ago that
a a group of illegals was outed right
here in my own neighborhood in
Arlington, uh, Virginia. So, let's let's
start with with the beginning. Tell us
how you fell into this. How did they
come to approach you? and um and and how
did they pitch it to you that made you
think that this is something you might
like to be involved in? I can only with
certainty only uh tell you what I
personally experienced because the KGB
gave me next to no background
information this and that makes a lot of
sense because if you send an illegal uh
to to another country and they're
supposed to be you know mergent into
into the population and and and become
like I I was I was impersonating a born
American. If you're really successful,
you're much more likely to defect. And
so that's why they didn't give me any
information other than and what I I will
tell you some things that I found out
afterwards, but I tell you how I was I
this is a guess how I came to the uh uh
attention of the KGB. I'm pretty sure
that they had access to the files of top
universities just like the CIA and other
intelligence services. They were looking
for candidates in in top universities
and particularly for candidates of a
certain age where they already were
mature enough to know who they are and
but most likely not yet settled. So when
I was approached, I was uh in my early
20s and I didn't have a steady
girlfriend at the time, but I in the in
the in the files under Alri, that was my
German name. Uh it was clear that I was
a an outstanding student. I had received
a a scholarship national scholarship
concurrent holders in the entire
country. So that meant I als not not
only did I have good grades and the best
grades uh but I also was active I was a
a party member. I was active in the
communist youth movement. And you to
round it all out, I also was in the
starting lineup of the college
basketball team. So we have an
interesting candidate that we need to,
you know, talk to. Uh this and so the
first meeting I had was not a
recruitment whatsoever. It was just
getting to know you because what they
knew was I that I was smart and I was a
communist and probably some other things
about my personal life. What they didn't
know was did I have what it takes to to
uh function in what I consider from an
intellectual point of view and the
overall behavioral point of view the the
toughest job in intelligence because
it's a lone wolf undercover illegal
where you have to make all your
decisions by yourself. There's no boss.
There's no no colleagues. You by
yourself. And so they I found out what
they were looking for and they they
actually studied me for 18 months before
they made made the offer. But they were
looking for among others like quick
decision- making. Uh they were looking
for uh lack of fear,
bravery. They were looking for uh the
ability to just say goodbye to uh the
current situation and have no problem
with uh you know changing everything in life.
life.
And they were looking for did I have the
ability to uh reach out to uh strange
strange individuals introduce myself
befriend them and find information from
them. It's elicitation. They gave me
some tasks to do. They were really
uncomfortable, but you know, I couldn't
fail. Failure was was for me. Okay, that
was never an option. Uh and u
and and my my favorite is uh inclination
uh uh wellont controlled inclination for adventure.
adventure. So,
So,
and I I I had this I my my inclination
for adventure was really in childhood
not not very well controlled because I I
did a lot of things that I shouldn't
have done as a child like climb trees
that that couldn't hold me and I would
fall down and I break something and run
around barefoot and uh playing soccer
and and step onto uh glass shards and on
and on. So I I I wasn't a very high-risk individual.
individual.
And uh that one one more I want to uh
mention is uh um the ability to come up
with a clever lie on the spot
to get you out of a tough situation.
Uh so that's a quick response to fluid
situations. That's what
>> that was code for lying.
>> Allow me to ask you about that because
that's a theme that comes up in the
Americans over and over and over again.
You have to be able to think very
quickly on your feet and it has to be
not just a lie but a clever lie as you
just said. >> Yes.
>> Yes.
>> Was that hard? Was that hard to do or
did it come naturally to you?
>> It did came naturally to me. I I I you
know, most people when they lie, they
the lie is very often worse than than
what they're trying to cover up because
because it gives them away. I I could
project forward how this might play if
it's being investigated.
So I I I had I was blessed with a with a
very fast uh fast brain, very very fast
brain. And the speed of a brain, I don't
think it has been measured, but it's not
as fast as it used to be. But, uh, for
my age, it's pretty darn good still.
>> Oh, God bless. I wanted to ask you, too,
what what was the or was there a a
single decisive moment when your loyalty
shifted from the Soviet cause to the
life that you had built in America? And
and why do you think it shifted?
>> Okay. Now, if you're talking about uh
the loyalty to uh say communism and this
the country I was born in
to becoming a loyal American, that was a
very lengthy process,
very lengthy process. And I tell you uh
it was good that it was a lengthy
process because the decontamination
that uh I it
pretty much was engaged in myself by
finding out more and more information
about how we were lied to and how things
were not the way we thought they were
and and I also how we were lied to how
bad capitalism is. you know, I
experienced this slowly and by
comparison, you know, people that my my
age, you know, fellow classmates, fellow
students, when Germany uh was reunified,
it hit them like a 2x4 over the head.
They they they did not have the luxury
of time and all of a sudden everything
changed. And it's for some of them, and
I met some uh it it felt like they like
a a long-term prisoner who's been in
prison for 10 years and is being led out
into society and is not functional. I
had a friend uh who was a who was had
pretty high chess ranking. He played
Karpov to a draw one time in a
simultaneous match. I I still have the
the record of that. And when when the
wall came down, he couldn't find another
job. He could not find a job. He because
he was used to being taken care of and
he was like so miserable. So you know
again I that the shift in loyalty was a
very slow one. It started initially with
understanding that the lies about what
America was all about uh was just uh
they were just lies. When I had my first
corporate job in in an insurance
company, I was looking for the evil
capitalists and I couldn't find any
because it felt more like in insurance
in those days were very paternalistic.
They took care of their employees and it
felt like okay it's just like I'm
employed in East Germany again.
It was you know we got free lunch and
and people were very nice. There were
some idiot bosses like the you find them
everywhere. But uh point being that was
a that was the first lie. But the the
the worst lies that I had to find out
after the war came down. I was so
surprised like everybody else. The CIA
was surprised, the KGB was surprised.
Nobody predicted that spontaneously the
East German nation would rise up and and
and succeed in breaking down that wall.
uh but so I was surprised and at that
point I didn't have to go to the library
because the internet was available
already and I could do a lot of research
in my spare time and of course I did the
research and I found out for instance I
found unredacted works of Vladimir Lenin
and Lenin was a hero to us in East
Germany. He was the founder of the uh of
communist Russia and then founded the
Soviet Union and u he died because he
took such sacrifices with his life and
he was also injured in a assassination
attempt and he was a smart guy and he
implemented Marxism Leninism which to us
was taught like a like a science.
Marxism, Leninism predicted that the
there would it was inevitable that uh
the future of mankind would be in a
communist paradise where there would
everybody uh that was the the motto
everybody according to their ability and
to from everybody and to everybody uh
according to their needs. That sounded
really romantic and it was sold as a
science and Lenin implemented something
like that. Well, when you when I had
access to unredacted writings of
Vladimir Lenon, I very quickly found out
that he was just as murderous a bastard
bastard as Stalin was, possibly even
more evil. except he didn't have as many
tools to kill as many people because
when Stalin Stalin had the forerunners
of the KGB and he used
that group to do the killing for him and
and populate the gulachs for him but
Lenon was just I mean he seated the
nonsense. So, um, at that point, uh,
uh, I
I
already had the person in my life that
made me stay in the United States when
they called me back, as you uh, as you
pointed out, and that was
um, an 18-month-old daughter, a child
who who I had unexpectedly, first of
all, she was born because mom uh decided
to it was a good idea to keep me as a
dad around because I told her I I wasn't
you know I I married she she was illegal
in the country and I married her to get
get her a green card and that worked and
I told her that once you got your green card
card
uh we're going to get divorced again and
uh she didn't
quite follow that rule. she stopped
taking the pill and got pregnant on
purpose and all of a sudden the the
illegal KGB agent became an American dad
holding a baby. So, and and I don't know
uh I've talked to many men who have uh
girls as children, girls and boys. But
when we men when when we first hold the
girl is something happens to us and and
this is this was unexpected. I wasn't
even aware of it but I just fell in love
with this child. And when she was 18
months old by the time the the KGB uh
called me back. She was she wasn't
really talking yet but she had the
biggest wonderful pretty brown eyes and
nice hair. And so every time I came home
from work, she was just uh she was in a
in a uh
in a what's that called?
>> Pen enclosure. So
and she would just climb up and look
look over the uh the great there and
look at me and
>> without saying it, the eyes just says,
"I love you, Dad."
And that was the first time in my life
that I un that I didn't even understand
it, but I experienced unconditional
love. But up until that point, I was
just in love with I wanted to have a
girlfriend. I was in love with myself a
lot because I was so damn good.
Everything I touched, I I succeeded at
and and I was praised by a lot of
people. So, I was just an arrogant uh
young man and and all of a sudden I was
in love with this innocent being that
couldn't even tell me anything yet.
And that
uh is that young young lady uh is
responsible for me talking to you today.
So when you're looking for a specific
moment and I this moment I will never forget
forget
uh I um
um I knew I would be called back
eventually. The tour of duty typically
was about 10 to 12 years. I was in my
11th year. Again they they didn't want
to keep illegals around too long because
the the risk of defection would grow the
longer you keep them there in the country.
country.
So, I knew I would have to leave and I
couldn't find a way to support her, this
child by the name of Chelsea and her mother.
mother.
I there was no way for me to support her
from a from a distance and I couldn't
ask anybody for help. So, so I I didn't
know what to do.
And uh I kicked the can down the road
until they
with in no uncertain terms told me, "You
got to come home." And this literally
something that one of the agents uh
whispered into my ears when he caught up
with me while I was waiting for the
subway for for the A train from Queens
to uh Manhattan.
So it it was dark and cold in a dece
December morning and he whispered to me
they already had given me signals and so
I had not responded to the signals and
he whispered to me he says you know you
got to come home or else you're dead in a
a
Russian accent. Now Russian accent or
not maybe you was used awkward language
but you had to take this seriously. So,
So,
and I now had to follow instructions. They
They
asked me for to you know what a dead
drop operation is?
>> Oh, yes I do.
>> Okay. Yes. So dead drop is when for for
the listeners or the viewers is when you
hand over something that has uh that has
u size such as money, a passport,
whatever else, objects rather than
information. and they called me for a
dead drop operation to get a passport
and and money so I can uh make my way to
Canada and eventually um go uh ring the
bell at the Soviet uh embassy where they
would uh then
get me out of the country and get me
back home. So, this was an interesting
operation. Was the only operation that
uh they scheduled for the dark at night
uh on Staten Island. It was a spot that
I couldn't miss because I found it
myself and and it was so easy to find
the and and so so easy to describe that
there was no way that this operation
would fail. And guess what? there. First
of all, uh there there there's a signal
that the person set who supposedly put a
a crushed oil can uh at the bottom of a
hollowed big tree
and and I saw that signal, the chalk
mark. It said, you know, it's there. Go
get it. So, I'm going into the park and
that tree was impossible to miss and
there was no oil can.
So, um that's a shock. And um I had a
this was in again and it was dark and
cold. There was nobody in the park. So,
I turned the flashlight on and I walked
around and walked around and walked around.
around.
Couldn't find anything. So, eventually
after like 15 minutes, I gave up. That
was the only oper
drop operation that failed. Uh I'm
thinking that was an intervention by God
or whatever. So it was it was not
it was not plausible. So and here's the
moment that I remember as I'm walking
out of this park and I s set foot on the
sidewalk that is parallel to the park.
I to there's three words that came to me
from my subconscious. I am staying.
That was from a rational perspective
the dumbest decision I could have ever
made because here's here's the reason
rationally everything that was good for
me was back in behind the iron curtain
be behind the wall. The wall was still
up in those days. Um and um everything
everything that was threatening for me
for my existence was in the United
States because the the KGB told me
through Morse code that most likely the
FBI is investigating me. And if if I
tell the KGB I'm not coming home, they
could interpret this as a defection. So
for me to stay all I would be able to
stay with my girl for a while but then I
could be arrested or worse yet uh
assassinated by the KGB. That was not
out of the question. I could have
rationalized all of this, but my my
instinct, my subconscious, my love
overrode all of that
and and I made that quote unquote dumb
yet the very best decision in my entire life.
life.
I want to ask you too. I I in my own
career I spent many many years not just
overseas but overseas undercover and in
some cases under pretty sophisticated
deep cover.
It's not unusual
to get confused sometimes by your own
cover. Um, I once
I once answered the phone using the
wrong name, for example, and then I
ended up just hanging up on the person.
They called back and I made it seem as
if, no, they must have dialed a wrong number.
number.
>> What was it like for you to to live
every day with this deep cover? What
aspect of maintaining
a completely fabricated identity was the
most difficult for you psychologically
on a day-to-day basis?
>> Right? I have to uh disappoint you. It
didn't feel that difficult. Now, here's
the thing. I did not operate in the same
language. So, so I then there's no way
that I could answer the phone and say,
"Hey, this is Albert." And when I when I
went back to Germany and people would
say my name, I didn't even see him. I
turned around. So, what happened was
that I I had manufactured the dual
personality for myself. And and there's
there's pretty much proof that I have.
So um when as I just told you when I'm I
every two years I uh traveled back to
Moscow for some debriefing and some more
training if the training was necessary
and then I spent time with my German family.
family.
And so again when somebody used my
German first name I would respond. So
now I go back to the United States
and I I always traveled with a shortwave
radio just in case I'm stuck someplace
and I need to uh receive Morse code. But
when I was in reach to uh get an
American radio station, I was eager to
find out how the Yankees were doing in
the playoffs.
So the American was
back in business. So I I I
in an interview with a with a German
news magazine the Spiegel, I sort of
compared this that that I had two
compartments in here and and one was
passive in the back and the other one
was active. As soon as I I never had a
problem uh impersonating Jack Barski in
the United States.
Okay. And it get it got a little more
How did
how did the KGB's
vision of the United States differ from
what you came to see the United States
as being?
Well, when you say the KGB, you need to
uh differentiate between the ones who
were subject to the propaganda and never
>> good point.
>> Never been to the United States and then
the people that had been to the United
States and they were all the when they
operated in the US, they were all under
the diplomatic cover.
So what they knew and what they proudly
displayed uh is the wealth in uh that
was prevalent in the US and attainable
to like middle class citizen uh people.
So yeah, they it never failed that when
when it was really cold outside in
Moscow winter, uh my some of my uh
teachers, trainers, coaches would show
up in clothes that were were bought at
Macy's or Saks Fifth Avenue
and were proudly displaying the clothes
that they had. You know, you didn't
didn't I mean that was normal to them.
So they they knew the standard of living
was higher. They most likely knew that
uh uh the overall the uh uh the there
wasn't as much evil uh prevalent in the
United States. Uh
but I think they were still
uh uh emotionally and intellectually
um attached to the communist cause. I
mean when you when you get that brain
brainwashed from kindergarten on that is
very very difficult to to uh to wipe out
and so uh they rationalized. Okay. And
uh and they they also they were very
happy in the in and they and I actually
w was looking forward to that too. they
they were happy to serve a higher cause,
right? Communism, worldwide communism,
and yet have the cake and eat it too,
you know? And so, uh, this this is, uh,
what I noticed with those guys, but
there's one thing that they didn't know
and they didn't know what they didn't know.
know.
>> Right? So, and I and I give this an in
an an example that uh uh will illustrate
what I'm talking about.
First of all, they spoke with an accent.
They lived, some of them had their
families in the United States. They
lived in a in a compound
up in in the north of Manhattan where
they they were all and then they went to
work at in New York that was all at the
United Nations either in the as part of
the Soviet contingent or employees of
the UN. Um as such they didn't have a
clue what it was like
to live as an American. So, this is
where I'm I'm using the example of a a
big aquarium in in Atlanta, Georgia,
where I lived for a while. They have
this huge aquarium where you can stand
in front of this thing and they have
sharks in there, all kinds of living
creatures that live in the water, and
it's fascinating.
Yeah. But me watching these fish, I
didn't know what it's like to be a fish.
And so the the diplomats never had to go
uh find a job, never had to find an apartment.
apartment.
Uh you know, they they just did not know
what it was like to be in be an
American. And the instructions that they
gave me were all false
uh from A to Z. You know, they gave me
all kinds of ideas. This is how how you
go about getting a driver's license.
This is how you go get get your social
security card. This is this is uh where
you where you should find a job such as
a taxi driver or a steador. Uh by the
way, this is uh I found out these jobs
the steador is highly unionized. At
least it was. So I couldn't get that
taxi driver, forget it. So I started out
as a messenger. I I had to figure this
all out now. That's why they hired
somebody like me. But these these you
know the thing is that within the system
of the Soviet Union and within the KGB
the folks that had been under diplomatic
cover uh in the United States were the
ones that knew everything and everybody
said, "Oh yeah, you've been there.
You've seen it." No.
No.
And so the most dangerous thing in life
is with regard to knowledge and
ignorance not not to know what you don't know.
know.
>> That's right. >> Before
>> Before
>> go ahead.
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Thanks for taking that pause, Jack.
>> Can I add to this?
>> Yes, please.
>> If our currency goes digital, there goes
the freedom. >> Mhm.
>> Mhm.
>> There there goes the freedom because
>> I agree completely.
>> Human nature. If you are if you're near
the top or or clo or wants to go to the
top and you and uh people want to
control other people and if you the
these the financial tools are more
dangerous than than any kind of weapon
you can think of.
>> No doubt.
>> You can't run away from that. You you're enslaved.
enslaved.
>> Jack, when the FBI finally approached
you, well, first of all, do you know how
it was that they figured it out? And
secondly, what made you decide to
cooperate with the FBI, especially to
the extent that you did?
>> Yeah. Well, that that was a no-brainer
because I I had a family. I had a I had
a house in the country. I had a good
job. Uh I had a beautiful wife. I had
two children. And and uh I had quit the
KGB. So for me returning to Germany I
could have possibly gone to Germany but
I don't know whether I would have done
what they would have done with me the
the you know the United German country
uh I certainly wouldn't have been very welcome
welcome >> right
>> right
>> so uh you know I I had become an American
American
uh also
that was um let me see I don't want to
misstate this
I when when did 9/11 happen? What year? >> 2001.
>> 2001.
>> 2001. So 9 911 had not happened yet. But
you know I had so many friendships and
relationships. You know I I I bought I
had created uh my version of the
American dream and it felt really good.
So I didn't want to leave that. Uh so uh
how they found out u there was a an
archavist in in the first directorate of
the KGB. First directorate was espionage.
espionage.
uh and he was the the lead archavist and
he over oversaw the the movement uh of
uh the the archives including that that
was included in the move of the
headquarters from uh uh Lubiana, you
know, uh right there at the Red Square
to Yasanovo
where they the KGB had their new
headquarters. And this guy had developed
an a an incredible hatred for the Soviet
system. He there was a there was a
security uh breach here there. He had
access to every little page that was
written there and he copied some stuff handwritten
handwritten
and with uh you know small pieces of
paper and smuggled them out every night.
A few pieces of paper in his underwear
and in his socks. again they let him go
out there. Nobody ever uh patted him
down or anything like that. And over
time, it took years, he collect he
transcribed what he what he wrote down
on on the pieces of paper and uh m typed
the result into larger p pieces of paper
and buried all that stuff in in a data.
And it was in uh
just about close to a year after the
Soviet Union collapsed and the KGB ex
ceased to exist. he uh decided to share
what he had with
initially he he approached the American
embassy on a on a weekend and there was
a junior officer as a guard and he told
him that we are not interested in that
this is old stuff that was a career
limiting move because Vasilei Matroken
that was the guy's name he uh then went
to one of the Baltic republics and told
MI6 what he had. And MI6 said, "Well,
let's come on in. Let's have a a cup of tea."
tea."
So, they had a cup of tea and they
managed to smuggle several
boxes worth of typewritten intelligence,
the the most valuable intelligence in
the history with one exception, and
that's that was the atomic secret. But
uh so and and then MI6 shared the
relevant stuff with the FBI and amongst
uh the the notes there was just a couple
of words. It says there is an illegal
who lives in the northeast of the United
States and his last name is Barski.
Well, if last name was Smith, I probably
wouldn't be talking to you today. So, so
the bars was relatively easy to find and
and and there were some bars and this I
I I was told by the the person who was
in charge of the investigation, the lead
agent who is now a good friend of mine. Uh
Uh
another oddity in my life. So uh um they
found out there there were like maybe a
handful or half a dozen bars and the one
that got his social security number at
the age of 38 39 that must have been him
because everybody else got it early.
So, and they spent quite a I think it
was altogether five year. No, it was I
don't want to misspeak. It was at least
two years to observe me from a distance
because the other than the name and that
I wasn't illegal. They didn't know
anything. I could still be active and if
I was still active and they get really
close, they knew one thing. I had
survived uh at that point uh like 14
years in the United States undetected.
So I I was really well trained and I if
I'm if I'm still looking for
surveillance I'll I find it and so they
watched me from a distance.
One of the questions that I get very
very frequently is because I underwent
so much training over the years. Do I
continue to look for surveillance? Do I
continue to spot, assess, develop uh you
know sources of information? And at
least as far as the surveillance goes, I
can't help myself. I'm constantly
looking for surveillance. Are are you
the same way or No, it's it's past.
>> It's interesting.
>> It's truly passed. What I There's one uh
residue I can't get rid of.
If somebody knocks at my door, I go like
this. You can ring the bell, that's
fine. But the knock.
But other than that, surveillance. No. I
stopped looking for surveillance. Once I
decided when I told the the uh when I
sent my goodbye letter to the KGB uh I
spent another like six weeks counter
surveillance and all kinds of measures
to see even if the FBI is uh
investigating me with one of the methods
I'm sure you know that you write a
letter to yourself
>> and uh you don't do you don't glue the
entire letter you keep an inch unglued
Because the letters are people can't
open the letters. They do damage. So
they're opened by machines and glued
back by machines and machine glues
everything. Right. So So I know you're
nodding and you know there there is some
kind of an international standard how to
how to operate in in secrecy.
I have a I have a friend who uh um who
is legend amongst the retired CIA and
every time we meet when we exchange
information but you did that too
>> you know one time
>> the trade craft the trade craft doesn't
change much from country to country. So,
how did I got sidetracked here? Uh, so
and how
so so how they they found me, I told
you. And and why I cooperated, that was
a no-brainer. The one thing I just
wanted to point out, the the um the
producers of the Americans were like
elated to find out that in my case the
FBI bought the house next door because
they had a they in in their uh series
they had FBI living next door
>> and I had FBI living next door for me
next to me for a while. >> Unbelievable.
>> Unbelievable.
Well, we will leave it there. Jack
Barski again, such an incredible treat.
Jack is a Fortune 500 and IT consultant,
and he's the author of an absolutely
wonderful book. It's been out for a
little while, but you can still find it.
It's called Deep Undercover: My Secret
Life and Tangled Allegiances as a KGB
Spy in America. Thanks again for joining
us. And ladies and gentlemen, please
help us bring you more conversations
like this by liking, sharing, and
subscribing. Please tell your friends
and family. We're coming right up on a
100,000 subscribers. I can't tell you
how much that means to all of us here.
Thanks again for joining us. I'm John
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